From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 2 19:44:31 2019 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 18:44:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hober Pumps Reviews? Message-ID: <000401d4a2fd$84fa2a80$8eee7f80$@sbcglobal.net> Happy New Year Wrenches From a young lady who is trying to bring clean water to a village in Uganda: " This is Rosanna Bauman from Garnett. I'd talked to you about 2 years ago about solar pumps for our friends in Uganda. We installed the solar panels but are just now getting the money saved up for the well-drilling. We have clean water located 75 meteers below, no rock. Looking at a Shur-flo or a Hober. We can get the Hober shipped direct from China to Uganda DHL, plus it's about $200 less. However, we would like some advice as to their reliability. We want something reliable. Have any of your Solar Wrenches used or heard of this company? Looking at using a 3000 liter/day pump to pump 1,000 liters, since it will be directly tied to solar power, no battery back-ups. You're welcome to call me if you have questions! Thanks! Rosanna Bauman" Thanks for your thoughts Bill Dorsett "Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can" Arthur Ashe 1715 Leavenworth Manhattan, KS 66502 www.fhreec.org 785/539-1956 Office 785/564-2583 Cell wmdorsett at cox.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 23:19:06 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 20:19:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hober Pumps Reviews? In-Reply-To: <000401d4a2fd$84fa2a80$8eee7f80$@sbcglobal.net> References: <000401d4a2fd$84fa2a80$8eee7f80$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <8282D873-AEFC-4D81-8F30-FA9476A6BCF3@gmail.com> Hi William I would steer you way way clear from the Shurflo 9300. It’ll break, they won’t have parts and it’ll never get rebuilt. The Hober uses the most common international design which is a DC to AC 3phase variable speed pump controller, basically an inverter. It then runs any 3 phase pump within its wattage parameters. These pumps are everywhere, cheap, pretty efficient and extremely reliable. There are many many of these inverters/controllers on the market. It is really hard to get good data on how to size the PV watts to pump watts using these inverters. Unlike a DC positive displacement pump which will still pump but more slowly if low DC input, the centrifugal pump’s output drops off dramatically if you get below its operating window. And that window is dependant on the pump specs vs flow vs dynamic lift. So need more water, add more PV, double PV watts to running watts as a bare minimum. And specify a pump that is pumping in the bottom of the curve instead of near the top helps to allow it to produce better during lower PV watts input. Good luck, Jay Peltz power > On Jan 2, 2019, at 4:44 PM, William Dorsett wrote: > > Happy New Year Wrenches From a young lady who is trying to bring clean water to a village in Uganda: > “ This is Rosanna Bauman from Garnett. I'd talked to you about 2 years ago about solar pumps for our friends in Uganda. We installed the solar panels but are just now getting the money saved up for the well-drilling. We have clean water located 75 meteers below, no rock. Looking at a Shur-flo or a Hober. We can get the Hober shipped direct from China to Uganda DHL, plus it's about $200 less. However, we would like some advice as to their reliability. We want something reliable. > Have any of your Solar Wrenches used or heard of this company? Looking at using a 3000 liter/day pump to pump 1,000 liters, since it will be directly tied to solar power, no battery back-ups. > You're welcome to call me if you have questions! > Thanks! > Rosanna Bauman” > > Thanks for your thoughts > Bill Dorsett > “Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can” Arthur Ashe > 1715 Leavenworth > Manhattan, KS 66502 > www.fhreec.org > 785/539-1956 Office > 785/564-2583 Cell > wmdorsett at cox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Wed Jan 2 22:50:14 2019 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 03:50:14 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Facial or transparent modules Message-ID: Does anyone have a source for bi-facial or double glass modules with frames? Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Thu Jan 3 08:12:54 2019 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2019 06:12:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Facial or transparent modules Message-ID: I think LG is still producing some. You could also try Lumos but they are quite expensive. Chad Waits President/Owner ­ Net Zero Solar 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Office: 520-207-4053 Cell: 520-270-4873 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Wayne Irwin Reply-To: RE-wrenches Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 8:50 PM To: Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Facial or transparent modules Does anyone have a source for bi-facial or double glass modules with frames? Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Transparent-Logo Signature[1][144].png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jan 3 10:38:48 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 10:38:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Facial or transparent modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm curious about this, too. I'm looking for something that accepts MLPE bolted to the frame and has a good wind rating. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 2:19 AM Wayne Irwin wrote: > Does anyone have a source for bi-facial or double glass modules with > frames? > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jan 3 11:11:29 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2019 08:11:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Facial or transparent modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8da96283852731b028461fbd9096f8f0@127.0.0.1> I have used these below. The last final issue of solar pro had a great article on bifacial. On a tracker in the snow or sand they are pretty amazing if done right. The old Sanyo bi facials had water problems. https://www.prismsolar.com/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 10:38:48 -0500, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I'm curious about this, too. I'm looking for something that accepts MLPE bolted to the frame and has a good wind rating. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 2:19 AM Wayne Irwin wrote: Does anyone have a source for bi-facial or double glass modules with frames? Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 12:28:26 2019 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 10:28:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Facial or transparent modules In-Reply-To: <8da96283852731b028461fbd9096f8f0@127.0.0.1> References: <8da96283852731b028461fbd9096f8f0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: After doing some research and cost / benefit / availability analysis we landed on these for a project that's currently nearing completion. So far so good: [image: image.png] Krannich and CED had product last year but availability was limited. *Regards, * *Andrew Truitt* www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 10:02 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > I have used these below. The last final issue of solar pro had a great > article on bifacial. On a tracker in the snow or sand they are pretty > amazing if done right. The old Sanyo bi facials had water problems. > > https://www.prismsolar.com/ > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 10:38:48 -0500, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > I'm curious about this, too. I'm looking for something that accepts MLPE > bolted to the frame and has a good wind rating. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 2:19 AM Wayne Irwin > wrote: > >> Does anyone have a source for bi-facial or double glass modules with >> frames? >> >> >> >> Wayne Irwin >> President >> License #CVC56695 >> State Licensed Solar Contractor >> Pure Energy Solar International Inc. >> > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 1157111 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bruce at willpowerelect.com Thu Jan 3 21:41:11 2019 From: bruce at willpowerelect.com (bruce at willpowerelect.com) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2019 19:41:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX blinking error codes Message-ID: <20190103194111.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.3b96681d83.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/jpeg Size: 4536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jan 3 23:00:38 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 21:00:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX blinking error codes In-Reply-To: <20190103194111.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.3b96681d83.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> References: <20190103194111.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.3b96681d83.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <63579336-8091-ea41-2afd-2dda1cabfc17@solarray.com> Not sure, but maybe the fan wire got damaged during the board replacement?  The wires are really tight and delicate.  I would think when it ran through its start up check and didn't have fan operation it would mess it up. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/3/19 7:41 PM, bruce at willpowerelect.com wrote: > Hi, > > Usually very successful with just replacing control and ac boards in > older vfx to bring them up to compatibility with Mate 3 or 3s. When > testing with 3 nine volt batteries, this one gives error code of ac > and error blinking 3 times and batt low on 4th blink. Relay indicator > also flashing, and vent fan does not come on. Ribbon cables are both > new and well seated. Does anyone know what this code means? > > Thanks! > > Bruce Fiero-RMI > > > "Energizing the Rogue Valley" > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 4536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Fri Jan 4 01:31:54 2019 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2019 23:31:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX blinking error codes Message-ID: <20190103233154.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.db6616901e.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/jpeg Size: 4536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Fri Jan 4 01:39:32 2019 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2019 23:39:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX blinking error codes Message-ID: <20190103233932.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.f4f82ebeed.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Jan 4 06:11:26 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 06:11:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX blinking error codes In-Reply-To: <20190103194111.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.3b96681d83.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> References: <20190103194111.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.3b96681d83.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Give Kris a call was w/ OB, refurbishes boards and is quite helpful; 425 233 0731. I have cced him.T > On Jan 3, 2019, at 9:41 PM, wrote: > > Hi, > > Usually very successful with just replacing control and ac boards in older vfx to bring them up to compatibility with Mate 3 or 3s. When testing with 3 nine volt batteries, this one gives error code of ac and error blinking 3 times and batt low on 4th blink. Relay indicator also flashing, and vent fan does not come on. Ribbon cables are both new and well seated. Does anyone know what this code means? > > Thanks! > > Bruce Fiero-RMI > > > > "Energizing the Rogue Valley" > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sat Jan 5 12:06:13 2019 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 11:06:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hober Pumps Reviews? In-Reply-To: <8282D873-AEFC-4D81-8F30-FA9476A6BCF3@gmail.com> References: <000401d4a2fd$84fa2a80$8eee7f80$@sbcglobal.net> <8282D873-AEFC-4D81-8F30-FA9476A6BCF3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00f701d4a518$fcb167b0$f6143710$@sbcglobal.net> Jay, thanks for your response. Do you have or anyone close, actual experience with Hober? At 230 ft, plus as Dan suggested, we have to add the head to the storage tank. At that depth ShurFlo would run through diaphragms quickly and in a place where a bicycle represents middle class, that cost could be unsustainable. Centrifugal pumps really bog down at that depth, even from 270 gals per day it’s going to take quite a few watts to spin water to the surface. It’s not obvious that Hober has pump curves available on their website, and very little about their pumps. Again thanks. Bill Dorsett “Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can” Arthur Ashe 1715 Leavenworth Manhattan, KS 66502 www.fhreec.org 785/539-1956 Office 785/564-2583 Cell wmdorsett at cox.net From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2019 10:19 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hober Pumps Reviews? Hi William I would steer you way way clear from the Shurflo 9300. It’ll break, they won’t have parts and it’ll never get rebuilt. The Hober uses the most common international design which is a DC to AC 3phase variable speed pump controller, basically an inverter. It then runs any 3 phase pump within its wattage parameters. These pumps are everywhere, cheap, pretty efficient and extremely reliable. There are many many of these inverters/controllers on the market. It is really hard to get good data on how to size the PV watts to pump watts using these inverters. Unlike a DC positive displacement pump which will still pump but more slowly if low DC input, the centrifugal pump’s output drops off dramatically if you get below its operating window. And that window is dependant on the pump specs vs flow vs dynamic lift. So need more water, add more PV, double PV watts to running watts as a bare minimum. And specify a pump that is pumping in the bottom of the curve instead of near the top helps to allow it to produce better during lower PV watts input. Good luck, Jay Peltz power On Jan 2, 2019, at 4:44 PM, William Dorsett > wrote: Happy New Year Wrenches From a young lady who is trying to bring clean water to a village in Uganda: “ This is Rosanna Bauman from Garnett. I'd talked to you about 2 years ago about solar pumps for our friends in Uganda. We installed the solar panels but are just now getting the money saved up for the well-drilling. We have clean water located 75 meteers below, no rock. Looking at a Shur-flo or a Hober. We can get the Hober shipped direct from China to Uganda DHL, plus it's about $200 less. However, we would like some advice as to their reliability. We want something reliable. Have any of your Solar Wrenches used or heard of this company? Looking at using a 3000 liter/day pump to pump 1,000 liters, since it will be directly tied to solar power, no battery back-ups. You're welcome to call me if you have questions! Thanks! Rosanna Bauman” Thanks for your thoughts Bill Dorsett “Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can” Arthur Ashe 1715 Leavenworth Manhattan, KS 66502 www.fhreec.org 785/539-1956 Office 785/564-2583 Cell wmdorsett at cox.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Sat Jan 5 13:53:24 2019 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 10:53:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hober Pumps Reviews? In-Reply-To: <00f701d4a518$fcb167b0$f6143710$@sbcglobal.net> References: <000401d4a2fd$84fa2a80$8eee7f80$@sbcglobal.net> <8282D873-AEFC-4D81-8F30-FA9476A6BCF3@gmail.com> <00f701d4a518$fcb167b0$f6143710$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Hi Guys. I have been testing pumps from China for about a year. I recently got a Hober that will pump 400 feet. It has a 3-phase brushless motor and a helical rotor. I will start testing it soon. It looks really good, as do the others I am testing. They are all excellent looking knockoffs of Grundfos and Lorentz. David Katz On Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 9:06 AM William Dorsett wrote: > Jay, thanks for your response. Do you have or anyone close, actual > experience with Hober? At 230 ft, plus as Dan suggested, we have to add > the head to the storage tank. At that depth ShurFlo would run through > diaphragms quickly and in a place where a bicycle represents middle class, > that cost could be unsustainable. Centrifugal pumps really bog down at that > depth, even from 270 gals per day it’s going to take quite a few watts to > spin water to the surface. It’s not obvious that Hober has pump curves > available on their website, and very little about their pumps. > > > > Again thanks. > > > > Bill Dorsett > > “Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can” Arthur Ashe > > 1715 Leavenworth > > Manhattan, KS 66502 > > www.fhreec.org > > > > 785/539-1956 Office > > 785/564-2583 Cell > > wmdorsett at cox.net > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *jay > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 02, 2019 10:19 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Hober Pumps Reviews? > > > > Hi William > > > > I would steer you way way clear from the Shurflo 9300. It’ll break, they > won’t have parts and it’ll never get rebuilt. > > > > The Hober uses the most common international design which is a DC to AC > 3phase variable speed pump controller, basically an inverter. > > It then runs any 3 phase pump within its wattage parameters. These pumps > are everywhere, cheap, pretty efficient and extremely reliable. There are > many many of these inverters/controllers on the market. > > > > It is really hard to get good data on how to size the PV watts to pump > watts using these inverters. Unlike a DC positive displacement pump which > will still pump but more slowly if low DC input, the centrifugal pump’s > output drops off dramatically if you get below its operating window. And > that window is dependant on the pump specs vs flow vs dynamic lift. > > So need more water, add more PV, double PV watts to running watts as a > bare minimum. And specify a pump that is pumping in the bottom of the > curve instead of near the top helps to allow it to produce better during > lower PV watts input. > > > > Good luck, > > > > Jay > > > > Peltz power > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 2, 2019, at 4:44 PM, William Dorsett > wrote: > > > > Happy New Year Wrenches From a young lady who is trying to bring clean > water to a village in Uganda: > > “ This is Rosanna Bauman from Garnett. I'd talked to you about 2 > years ago about solar pumps for our friends in Uganda. We installed the > solar panels but are just now getting the money saved up for the > well-drilling. We have clean water located 75 meteers below, no rock. > Looking at a Shur-flo or a Hober. We can get the Hober shipped direct from > China to Uganda DHL, plus it's about $200 less. However, we would like > some advice as to their reliability. We want something reliable. > > Have any of your Solar Wrenches used or heard of this company? Looking at > using a 3000 liter/day pump to pump 1,000 liters, since it will be directly > tied to solar power, no battery back-ups. > > You're welcome to call me if you have questions! > > Thanks! > > Rosanna Bauman” > > > > Thanks for your thoughts > > Bill Dorsett > > “Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can” Arthur Ashe > > 1715 Leavenworth > > Manhattan, KS 66502 > > www.fhreec.org > > 785/539-1956 Office > > 785/564-2583 Cell > > wmdorsett at cox.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Mon Jan 7 09:46:39 2019 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 07:46:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 vs BOS Message-ID: <20190107074639.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8398f5a31c.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jan 7 10:06:25 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 07:06:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 vs BOS In-Reply-To: <20190107074639.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8398f5a31c.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> References: <20190107074639.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8398f5a31c.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <4a0d420a27c99bc2a9cc228d772fc289@127.0.0.1> You state that the battery is a LiFe and Outback said it is a Nife bms. Can you clarify please? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 07 Jan 2019 07:46:39 -0700, wrote: I've been asked to trouble shoot a problem with a new set of LiFePO4 batteries on an older OB system.. The customer complained the system would go dark within a few min. of the batt indicator light going yellow.. From what I've gathered so far the BMS of the batteries is shutting down.. The distributor sent out one of their techs, but it looks like they missed a few adjustments.. The biggie is their CC (OB FM60) went into snooze mode within a day of being connected to these guys, and now OB tells me the CC lost it's FETs and that's pretty common with NiFePO4 BMS.. also when the tech came out to commission the bank, one of the terminals on a battery melted and another distorted.. the customer has a few more days to accept the bank, I'm thinking send them back.. Comments? Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com [3] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 12:57:35 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 09:57:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 vs BOS In-Reply-To: <20190107074639.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8398f5a31c.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> References: <20190107074639.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8398f5a31c.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <58426441-00DC-420C-BB61-BB1AE5DB6522@gmail.com> HI Dan, I’d like to know more about the system: battery brand size of the PV voltage jay peltz power > On Jan 7, 2019, at 6:46 AM, wrote: > > I've been asked to trouble shoot a problem with a new set of LiFePO4 batteries on an older OB system.. The customer complained the system would go dark within a few min. of the batt indicator light going yellow.. From what I've gathered so far the BMS of the batteries is shutting down.. The distributor sent out one of their techs, but it looks like they missed a few adjustments.. The biggie is their CC (OB FM60) went into snooze mode within a day of being connected to these guys, and now OB tells me the CC lost it's FETs and that's pretty common with NiFePO4 BMS.. also when the tech came out to commission the bank, one of the terminals on a battery melted and another distorted.. the customer has a few more days to accept the bank, I'm thinking send them back.. Comments? > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 13:23:30 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 13:23:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 vs BOS In-Reply-To: <20190107074639.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8398f5a31c.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> References: <20190107074639.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8398f5a31c.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Hey Dan, Are you saying that OB is claiming that NiFePO4 batteries are smoking their charge controllers? Do they say why? Is this also true of LiFePO4 batteries? If you wouldn't mind mentioning which battery manufacture you are dealing with? Thanks, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 11:06 AM wrote: > I've been asked to trouble shoot a problem with a new set of LiFePO4 > batteries on an older OB system.. The customer complained the system would > go dark within a few min. of the batt indicator light going yellow.. From > what I've gathered so far the BMS of the batteries is shutting down.. The > distributor sent out one of their techs, but it looks like they missed a > few adjustments.. The biggie is their CC (OB FM60) went into snooze mode > within a day of being connected to these guys, and now OB tells me the CC > lost it's FETs and that's pretty common with NiFePO4 BMS.. also when the > tech came out to commission the bank, one of the terminals on a battery > melted and another distorted.. the customer has a few more days to accept > the bank, I'm thinking send them back.. Comments? > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Jan 7 13:49:43 2019 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 11:49:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking questions Message-ID: Wrenches, I am assisting off grid neighbors with a system installed by the former homeowner and with no documentation. Among numerous issues, we're adding two matching 300W Renogy modules to the existing roof-mounted array of four 300W modules. I don't do much roof-mount and don't recognize the rack brand shown in the two attached photos, so I am asking for assistance. What is the brand of rack? The existing array is set at 30º, and at our 36º latitude it should be set at 40-45º for better winter gain. Can you suggest the specific model of fixed or adjustable back leg to raise these six modules up? Thank you, Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_6567 reduced.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 496023 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_6568 reduced.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 475916 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_6569 reduced.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 307553 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Mon Jan 7 13:53:20 2019 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 11:53:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 vs BOS Message-ID: <20190107115320.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.20dce45b23.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Mon Jan 7 14:00:32 2019 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 12:00:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 vs BOS Message-ID: <20190107120032.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.f1a3b4c769.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jan 7 14:37:35 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:37:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <377bfa0e-941a-e7a8-a77d-33134771002b@solarray.com> It looks like Everest racking, but is a slightly different profile than what they are currently making. The hardware is similar (heavy hex head bolts) but also different. It could be a totally different brand I've never seen though.  If its Everest, I have some misc parts, but no rails.  They definitely have a tilt option that I've used and was happy with. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/7/19 11:49 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I am assisting off grid neighbors with a system installed by the > former homeowner and with no documentation. Among numerous issues, > we're adding two matching 300W Renogy modules to the existing > roof-mounted array of four 300W modules. I don't do much roof-mount > and don't recognize the rack brand shown in the two attached photos, > so I am asking for assistance. > > What is the brand of rack? > > The existing array is set at 30º, and at our 36º latitude it should be > set at 40-45º for better winter gain. Can you suggest the specific > model of fixed or adjustable back leg to raise these six modules up? > > Thank you, Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Jan 7 14:32:15 2019 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 12:32:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 vs BOS In-Reply-To: References: <20190107074639.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8398f5a31c.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <78BAD3D3-775D-45A0-AF04-C08E6813EB04@starlightsolar.com> Howie, We have many hundreds of Li battery systems sold and installed. Never had any failure of PV controllers including Outback due to charging Li-ion. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 7, 2019, at 11:23 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Hey Dan, Are you saying that OB is claiming that NiFePO4 batteries are smoking their charge controllers? Do they say why? Is this also true of LiFePO4 batteries? If you wouldn't mind mentioning which battery manufacture you are dealing with? Thanks, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 11:06 AM > wrote: I've been asked to trouble shoot a problem with a new set of LiFePO4 batteries on an older OB system.. The customer complained the system would go dark within a few min. of the batt indicator light going yellow.. From what I've gathered so far the BMS of the batteries is shutting down.. The distributor sent out one of their techs, but it looks like they missed a few adjustments.. The biggie is their CC (OB FM60) went into snooze mode within a day of being connected to these guys, and now OB tells me the CC lost it's FETs and that's pretty common with NiFePO4 BMS.. also when the tech came out to commission the bank, one of the terminals on a battery melted and another distorted.. the customer has a few more days to accept the bank, I'm thinking send them back.. Comments? Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 14:50:14 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 14:50:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 vs BOS In-Reply-To: <78BAD3D3-775D-45A0-AF04-C08E6813EB04@starlightsolar.com> References: <20190107074639.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8398f5a31c.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> <78BAD3D3-775D-45A0-AF04-C08E6813EB04@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Good to know Larry. I'm just trying to clarify what Dan is setting and what outback is claiming. Thanks On Mon, Jan 7, 2019, 2:43 PM Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: > Howie, > > We have many hundreds of Li battery systems sold and installed. Never had > any failure of PV controllers including Outback due to charging Li-ion. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Jan 7, 2019, at 11:23 AM, Howie Michaelson > wrote: > > Hey Dan, > Are you saying that OB is claiming that NiFePO4 batteries are smoking > their charge controllers? Do they say why? Is this also true of LiFePO4 > batteries? If you wouldn't mind mentioning which battery manufacture you > are dealing with? > Thanks, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 11:06 AM wrote: > >> I've been asked to trouble shoot a problem with a new set of LiFePO4 >> batteries on an older OB system.. The customer complained the system would >> go dark within a few min. of the batt indicator light going yellow.. From >> what I've gathered so far the BMS of the batteries is shutting down.. The >> distributor sent out one of their techs, but it looks like they missed a >> few adjustments.. The biggie is their CC (OB FM60) went into snooze mode >> within a day of being connected to these guys, and now OB tells me the CC >> lost it's FETs and that's pretty common with NiFePO4 BMS.. also when the >> tech came out to commission the bank, one of the terminals on a battery >> melted and another distorted.. the customer has a few more days to accept >> the bank, I'm thinking send them back.. Comments? >> >> >> Dan Brown >> Foxfire Energy Corp. >> Renewable Energy Systems >> (802)-483-2564 >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Mon Jan 7 17:29:29 2019 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2019 15:29:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 vs BOS] Message-ID: <20190107152929.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.ecd37f3f50.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Jan 8 11:48:49 2019 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 09:48:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 vs BOS In-Reply-To: <20190107074639.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8398f5a31c.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> References: <20190107074639.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8398f5a31c.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <49AAF874-25F6-4526-9504-329C8D28F969@starlightsolar.com> There was some off board chatter about this subject but I think it is useful to some to copy my comments on the board. If a Li battery EMS or BMS detects a fault condition, it can cause an open circuit to the battery. As the battery owner gets familiar with their new energy storage system, this will likely happen. If high current is flowing, connected devices need to be able to handle that condition without harm. Morningstar notified us (about 4 year ago) that this event could cause damage to their controller. That’s puzzling to me because OCV also happens if your battery circuit protection opens. We mostly sell Midnite and Blue Sky Energy controllers with some Outback in the mix. No failures have been reported to us. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 7, 2019, at 7:46 AM, Dan at FoxFire-Energy.com wrote: I've been asked to trouble shoot a problem with a new set of LiFePO4 batteries on an older OB system.. The customer complained the system would go dark within a few min. of the batt indicator light going yellow.. From what I've gathered so far the BMS of the batteries is shutting down.. The distributor sent out one of their techs, but it looks like they missed a few adjustments.. The biggie is their CC (OB FM60) went into snooze mode within a day of being connected to these guys, and now OB tells me the CC lost it's FETs and that's pretty common with NiFePO4 BMS.. also when the tech came out to commission the bank, one of the terminals on a battery melted and another distorted.. the customer has a few more days to accept the bank, I'm thinking send them back.. Comments? Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com ______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 12:40:09 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 11:40:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 vs BOS In-Reply-To: <49AAF874-25F6-4526-9504-329C8D28F969@starlightsolar.com> References: <20190107074639.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8398f5a31c.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> <49AAF874-25F6-4526-9504-329C8D28F969@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Hello Larry is always a good source. I have used Morningstar MPPT 60 s on my few LiFe po4 systems 4 years now, no controller problems or equipment problems yet. I imagine when the BMS disconnects battery voltage high, controller output goes high for a short period i will put an Egauge on the output to messure voltage on one system to see if i catch an event. Very good point On Tue, Jan 8, 2019, 11:03 AM Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: > There was some off board chatter about this subject but I think it is > useful to some to copy my comments on the board. > > If a Li battery EMS or BMS detects a fault condition, it can cause an open > circuit to the battery. As the battery owner gets familiar with their new > energy storage system, this will likely happen. If high current is flowing, > connected devices need to be able to handle that condition without harm. > > Morningstar notified us (about 4 year ago) that this event could cause > damage to their controller. That’s puzzling to me because OCV also happens > if your battery circuit protection opens. > > We mostly sell Midnite and Blue Sky Energy controllers with some Outback > in the mix. No failures have been reported to us. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > On Jan 7, 2019, at 7:46 AM, Dan at FoxFire-Energy.com > wrote: > > I've been asked to trouble shoot a problem with a new set of LiFePO4 > batteries on an older OB system.. The customer complained the system would > go dark within a few min. of the batt indicator light going yellow.. From > what I've gathered so far the BMS of the batteries is shutting down.. The > distributor sent out one of their techs, but it looks like they missed a > few adjustments.. The biggie is their CC (OB FM60) went into snooze mode > within a day of being connected to these guys, and now OB tells me the CC > lost it's FETs and that's pretty common with NiFePO4 BMS.. also when the > tech came out to commission the bank, one of the terminals on a battery > melted and another distorted.. the customer has a few more days to accept > the bank, I'm thinking send them back.. Comments? > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > ______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex at blueskyenergyinc.com Tue Jan 8 13:15:40 2019 From: alex at blueskyenergyinc.com (Alex MeVay) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:15:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 vs BOS In-Reply-To: <49AAF874-25F6-4526-9504-329C8D28F969@starlightsolar.com> References: <20190107074639.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8398f5a31c.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> <49AAF874-25F6-4526-9504-329C8D28F969@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi All, As Larry said, when a lithium BMS disconnects, this causes a "load dump" just like disconnecting a lead-acid battery. Well-designed chargers (solar or otherwise) should be able to handle this without damage, though a failing or poorly-designed lithium battery may cause this to happen many orders of magnitude more frequently than the once-in-a-blue-moon that may occur with Pb systems. I'd like to share some pitfalls we learned back when we made lithium batteries in case they are helpful to Dan in making his decision about the Li bank. 1. Load dump can mean different things to different chargers. Solar MPPTs, (boost MPPTs excluded) won't put out more than the solar Voc. For mobile installations that may include alternator charging, a "dumped" 12 or 24V alternator may put out 100V plus before the alternator has a chance to respond and the field current can decay. Mobile systems should have a mechanism to cut the field current before popping the BMS relay. 2. Most chargers are not power supplies, and are designed to have a battery attached as the proverbial 900lb gorilla to stabilize the output voltage and buffer load transients. BMSs should be configured never to allow chargers and loads to be directly connected without a battery present. With no battery, load dump transients can destroy sensitive loads, and brownouts or bus voltage instability is likely. Best case is if the BMS has separate controls for charge and load relays, but even with one control output, separate relays for chargers and loads can prevent many problems. 3. Related to #2, most modern MPPTs use synchronous rectification in their power stage. This means that, fundamentally, they can pump power into the array from the battery just as well as in the "normal" direction. It's only the controls that keep power flowing the correct direction. Let's say a one-relay 24V Li BMS disconnects, leaving chargers and loads connected. Say things brown out to 10V on the bus, with the MPPT doing its best to keep things powered, and running from 75Vmp on the array. BMS decides it's time to reconnect, relay closes, bus voltage jumps back up to 26V and instantaneously, the MPPT power stage is still set for a 7.5:1 ratio, so power will get pumped back into the array, trying to push it up to 26V*7.5=195V, and if the MPPTs control loop or protection circuits can't respond fast enough, pop go the MOSFETs (depending on input rating of the MPPT). Separate relays for chargers and loads should prevent this, as most MPPTs will either shut down or go to absorption when the battery is disconnected, preventing the high buck ratios and problems on BMS reconnect. 4. As a side note, we get a fair number of tech support calls from Li battery users complaining of over-voltage LED indications, etc. from our MPPTs. Almost invariably, this turns out to be a "don't shoot the messenger" situation, where the lithium battery was never balanced at the factory (etc.), and is disconnecting, and our controllers are notifying the user of the problem. Usually a little customer education (and patience during cell balancing) solves the problem. Thank you as always, Wrenches, for all the knowledge you share on this list. Alex MeVay Blue Sky Energy * http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com Genasun * http://www.genasun.com From august at luminalt.com Tue Jan 8 15:49:25 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 12:49:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a battery backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and the client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't want Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment would you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 batteries? Best, August *August Goers* Luminalt Energy Corporation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 15:56:56 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 14:56:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, i would keep LG in the mix, and also Pika using Panasonic. My experiance is only small systems 10 kwh and smaller. Besure to look at demand charge reduction operation. On Tue, Jan 8, 2019, 2:49 PM August Goers Hi Wrenches, > > We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a battery > backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and the > client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't want > Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment would > you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 > batteries? > > Best, August > > *August Goers* > > Luminalt Energy Corporation > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 16:02:39 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 16:02:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi August, The limitation with the Sunny Island, (if you don't go 3 phase), is a quad stack of 6048s in a 120/240 system last I checked. I think you can double that with your islanded Sunny Boys. The 6048 had a ridiculously high surge rating so it can cover pretty high loads. If you go 3 phase with the multicluster box its above 100 kW. We have done a 64 kWh Blue Ion and it seems to work extremely well. The Sunny Island SOC algorithm and Blue Ion SOC don't track perfectly but both are useful. I think you can stack 10 x 8048 Radians but AC coupling then becomes a problem. Good luck with this. On Tue, Jan 8, 2019, 3:49 PM August Goers Hi Wrenches, > > We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a battery > backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and the > client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't want > Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment would > you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 > batteries? > > Best, August > > *August Goers* > > Luminalt Energy Corporation > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jan 8 13:02:31 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2019 10:02:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 vs BOS In-Reply-To: References: <20190107074639.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8398f5a31c.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> <49AAF874-25F6-4526-9504-329C8D28F969@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <73c6c6bc9a795fd2efc26de27b713ce6@127.0.0.1> We did the LG RESU 48v field testing here for Schneider. Never had any problems with this and both of their cc's. Still running fine 2 years later. What I found was in the effort to get to 100% Soc there would be micro cycles of the battery. By staying below 100% there was not any more issue with this. I keep the charge voltage just slightly lower by a few tenths of a volt and get a 97% Soc. Looks just like my old LA bank on a voltage graph. Never had any problems with lights out on this system, NEVER ! I do once every 3 months or so raise the voltage to 100% Soc to let the BMS balance if it wants to. I sure wish LG would sell the 13.5 KWH in North America. So Sad! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 11:40:09 -0600, Darryl Thayer wrote: Hello Larry is always a good source. I have used Morningstar MPPT 60 s on my few LiFe po4 systems 4 years now, no controller problems or equipment problems yet. I imagine when the BMS disconnects battery voltage high, controller output goes high for a short period i will put an Egauge on the output to messure voltage on one system to see if i catch an event. Very good point On Tue, Jan 8, 2019, 11:03 AM Starlight Solar Power Systems Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com [4] mailto:Dan at foxfire-energy.com [5] http://www.foxfire-energy.com/ [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Tue Jan 8 16:17:51 2019 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 16:17:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup References: Message-ID: <1FFF0A5C1F7E46A2B00AE5CBCBA2E002@PeterPC> August Is this a commercial project? If so depending on the incoming voltage, Fronius Primo or Symos for the grid tied portion and Outback radians for the battery side ( can stack up to 8 per Mate and hub ) . There is a company called Sol-Ark that has a great true Hybrid but they are still working on stacking inverters. Re batteries, LG if they ever bring their 48 volt battery to the US, SimpliPhi or Blue Planet out of Hawaii. With Outback you can use their 12 volt output ( with a relay from Grainger ) to trip off the Neutral on the Fronius inverters if the battery voltages get too high on an AC Coupled application. No matter who you use there will be a few challenges but hey, if it was easy everyone would think they could do it. Sounds like a fun, challenging project, enjoy. Peter Giroux ASAE ----- Original Message ----- From: August Goers To: RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 3:49 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup Hi Wrenches, We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a battery backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and the client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't want Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment would you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 batteries? Best, August August Goers Luminalt Energy Corporation ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Tue Jan 8 16:25:06 2019 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2019 13:25:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hober Pumps Reviews? In-Reply-To: <000401d4a2fd$84fa2a80$8eee7f80$@sbcglobal.net> References: <000401d4a2fd$84fa2a80$8eee7f80$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jan 8 13:20:23 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2019 10:20:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 vs BOS In-Reply-To: References: <20190107074639.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8398f5a31c.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> <49AAF874-25F6-4526-9504-329C8D28F969@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <4799e7bec0c5403d24bd5bf93bbf153c@127.0.0.1> Got 113 attached screen. What is different or what should I look for please? --Dave On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:15:40 -0800, Alex MeVay wrote: > Hi All, > > As Larry said, when a lithium BMS disconnects, this causes a "load > dump" just like disconnecting a lead-acid battery. Well-designed > chargers (solar or otherwise) should be able to handle this without > damage, though a failing or poorly-designed lithium battery may cause > this to happen many orders of magnitude more frequently than the > once-in-a-blue-moon that may occur with Pb systems. I'd like to share > some pitfalls we learned back when we made lithium batteries in case > they are helpful to Dan in making his decision about the Li bank. > > 1. Load dump can mean different things to different chargers. Solar > MPPTs, (boost MPPTs excluded) won't put out more than the solar Voc. > For mobile installations that may include alternator charging, a > "dumped" 12 or 24V alternator may put out 100V plus before the > alternator has a chance to respond and the field current can decay. > Mobile systems should have a mechanism to cut the field current before > popping the BMS relay. > > 2. Most chargers are not power supplies, and are designed to have a > battery attached as the proverbial 900lb gorilla to stabilize the > output voltage and buffer load transients. BMSs should be configured > never to allow chargers and loads to be directly connected without a > battery present. With no battery, load dump transients can destroy > sensitive loads, and brownouts or bus voltage instability is likely. > Best case is if the BMS has separate controls for charge and load > relays, but even with one control output, separate relays for chargers > and loads can prevent many problems. > > 3. Related to #2, most modern MPPTs use synchronous rectification in > their power stage. This means that, fundamentally, they can pump > power into the array from the battery just as well as in the "normal" > direction. It's only the controls that keep power flowing the correct > direction. Let's say a one-relay 24V Li BMS disconnects, leaving > chargers and loads connected. Say things brown out to 10V on the bus, > with the MPPT doing its best to keep things powered, and running from > 75Vmp on the array. BMS decides it's time to reconnect, relay closes, > bus voltage jumps back up to 26V and instantaneously, the MPPT power > stage is still set for a 7.5:1 ratio, so power will get pumped back > into the array, trying to push it up to 26V*7.5=195V, and if the MPPTs > control loop or protection circuits can't respond fast enough, pop go > the MOSFETs (depending on input rating of the MPPT). Separate relays > for chargers and loads should prevent this, as most MPPTs will either > shut down or go to absorption when the battery is disconnected, > preventing the high buck ratios and problems on BMS reconnect. > > 4. As a side note, we get a fair number of tech support calls from Li > battery users complaining of over-voltage LED indications, etc. from > our MPPTs. Almost invariably, this turns out to be a "don't shoot the > messenger" situation, where the lithium battery was never balanced at > the factory (etc.), and is disconnecting, and our controllers are > notifying the user of the problem. Usually a little customer > education (and patience during cell balancing) solves the problem. > > Thank you as always, Wrenches, for all the knowledge you share on this > list. > > Alex MeVay > > Blue Sky Energy * http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com > Genasun * http://www.genasun.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 113.PNG Type: image/png Size: 43813 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jan 8 18:11:46 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2019 15:11:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup In-Reply-To: <1FFF0A5C1F7E46A2B00AE5CBCBA2E002@PeterPC> References: <1FFF0A5C1F7E46A2B00AE5CBCBA2E002@PeterPC> Message-ID: You should also take a look at the latest Schneider offering. It is made for the new grid requirements and has the 600v mppt's along with the Insight monitoring/remote configuration. Also warranty/product support can be allowed in to help you if you let them. 75KW and going up I hear. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/conext-xw-pro-na-solar-inverter/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 16:17:51 -0500, "Peter Giroux" wrote: August Is this a commercial project? If so depending on the incoming voltage, Fronius Primo or Symos for the grid tied portion and Outback radians for the battery side ( can stack up to 8 per Mate and hub ) . There is a company called Sol-Ark that has a great true Hybrid but they are still working on stacking inverters. Re batteries, LG if they ever bring their 48 volt battery to the US, SimpliPhi or Blue Planet out of Hawaii. With Outback you can use their 12 volt output ( with a relay from Grainger ) to trip off the Neutral on the Fronius inverters if the battery voltages get too high on an AC Coupled application. No matter who you use there will be a few challenges but hey, if it was easy everyone would think they could do it. Sounds like a fun, challenging project, enjoy. Peter Giroux ASAE ----- Original Message ----- FROM: August Goers [3] TO: RE-wrenches [4] SENT: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 3:49 PM SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup Hi Wrenches, We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a battery backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and the client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't want Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment would you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 batteries? Best, August AUGUST GOERS Luminalt Energy Corporation ------------------------- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:august at luminalt.com [4] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 18:51:52 2019 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 16:51:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi August - in addition to the suggestions below, I would give Iron Edison a call here in Colorado. They have supplied many gorgeous 200-300 kWh LiFe systems, and they generally use Schneider products. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP PV Associate 970.672.4342 On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 1:49 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a battery > backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and the > client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't want > Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment would > you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 > batteries? > > Best, August > > *August Goers* > > Luminalt Energy Corporation > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 18:51:59 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 15:51:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hober Pumps Reviews? In-Reply-To: <20190108212602.2BC4C108108@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <000401d4a2fd$84fa2a80$8eee7f80$@sbcglobal.net> <20190108212602.2BC4C108108@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <20D5F49F-5A12-46F5-A755-E8B9F5EE4BF8@gmail.com> HI Michael, Here is another option vs the shurflo. I had someone buy this and so far its working well. 6 months now. The shruflo is about $700, this one is $69. https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-Submersible-Deep-Solar-Well-Alternative-Solar-Battery-Water-Pump-Powerful/401447293005?hash=item5d781f904d:rk:16:pf:0 Its a direct copy/knockoff of the shurflo. jay > On Jan 8, 2019, at 1:25 PM, Michael Welch wrote: > > Hi Bill and all. Windy was having troubles getting this to post, so he asked that I post it on his behalf: > > Bill, > > I agree, mostly, with Jay. The Shurflo may last 1-3 years and it is difficult and expensive to rebuild. It's a diaphragm pump like an RV pump and has a brush motor. When the diaphragm wears or breaks, it instantly floods the motor. It's 1980's technology. But it is efficient for low-flow rates. > > The Hober items that I see listed on their Alibaba site are "solar pump inverters" designed to power conventional 3-phase AC pumps. Jay explains, but I will cut to the chase …> You will need many more PV watts than you should need, and it will pump MUCH more water than you are calling for. The pump cannot be slowed down to match your needs because that would kill its lift capacity. That is the essential nature of conventional centrifugal pumps. > > You should look for a helical rotor (HR) submersible, also called a screw pump. It is not a centrifugal pump. It is positive displacement, like the Shurflo, and will have similar efficiency, excellent for low volume high lift. HOWEVER, it is brushless and long lasting. Instead of a vibrating diaphragm, it has a metal helical rotor, just one moving part. > > Lorentz and Grundfos SQ-Flex are the original successful HR submersibles, but oversized and expensive for the low volume that you require. > > There are several Chinese companies making HR submersible solar pumps that are smaller, and cheap. Some of them are very good. SunRotor in USA sells good ones and stands by them.* > > Windy > Dankoff Solar Pumps (retired) > Co-Author Solar Water Pumping (for publication 2019) > > * My old motto: > I stand behind my product. If I stand in front of it, it doesn’t work. > > William Dorsett wrote at 04:44 PM 1/2/2019: > >> Happy New Year Wrenches From a young lady who is trying to bring clean water to a village in Uganda: >> >> “ This is Rosanna Bauman from Garnett. I'd talked to you about 2 years ago about solar pumps for our friends in Uganda. We installed the solar panels but are just now getting the money saved up for the well-drilling. We have clean water located 75 meteers below, no rock. Looking at a Shur-flo or a Hober. We can get the Hober shipped direct from China to Uganda DHL, plus it's about $200 less. However, we would like some advice as to their reliability. We want something reliable. >> >> Have any of your Solar Wrenches used or heard of this company? Looking at using a 3000 liter/day pump to pump 1,000 liters, since it will be directly tied to solar power, no battery back-ups. >> >> You're welcome to call me if you have questions! >> >> Thanks! >> >> Rosanna Bauman” >> >> Thanks for your thoughts >> >> Bill Dorsett >> >> “Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can” Arthur Ashe >> >> 1715 Leavenworth >> >> Manhattan, KS 66502 >> >> www.fhreec.org >> >> 785/539-1956 Office >> >> 785/564-2583 Cell >> >> wmdorsett at cox.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 18:54:20 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 15:54:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64DE8229-BEA6-4CBD-A8AF-D6975270ECE1@gmail.com> HI Mac, I wondering if you know which SMA GT inverters communication with the SI? thx jay > On Jan 8, 2019, at 1:02 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi August, > > The limitation with the Sunny Island, (if you don't go 3 phase), is a quad stack of 6048s in a 120/240 system last I checked. I think you can double that with your islanded Sunny Boys. The 6048 had a ridiculously high surge rating so it can cover pretty high loads. > > If you go 3 phase with the multicluster box its above 100 kW. > > We have done a 64 kWh Blue Ion and it seems to work extremely well. The Sunny Island SOC algorithm and Blue Ion SOC don't track perfectly but both are useful. > > I think you can stack 10 x 8048 Radians but AC coupling then becomes a problem. > > Good luck with this. > > On Tue, Jan 8, 2019, 3:49 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a battery backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and the client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't want Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment would you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 batteries? > > Best, August > August Goers > > Luminalt Energy Corporation > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 08:37:01 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 07:37:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 vs BOS In-Reply-To: References: <20190107074639.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8398f5a31c.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> <49AAF874-25F6-4526-9504-329C8D28F969@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: I see now Larry and Alex explained one of my problems was low capacty early shut down. I had the cc set to absorb volts below 100% and over two years the battery seemed to lose capacity. Voc 80 volts solar array The cc absorb 55 volts i was not charging full. The BMS. would never top balance. After i removed the battery and put on my power supply at 59 volts for a couple of days top balance occurred i have returned battery to service and works fine. Alex's point about cells not being balanced. Larry's point my system never disconnected but ramped down as i approached absorb volts therefor no BMS disconnection and no voltage spikes. On Tue, Jan 8, 2019, 12:15 PM Alex MeVay Hi All, > > As Larry said, when a lithium BMS disconnects, this causes a "load > dump" just like disconnecting a lead-acid battery. Well-designed > chargers (solar or otherwise) should be able to handle this without > damage, though a failing or poorly-designed lithium battery may cause > this to happen many orders of magnitude more frequently than the > once-in-a-blue-moon that may occur with Pb systems. I'd like to share > some pitfalls we learned back when we made lithium batteries in case > they are helpful to Dan in making his decision about the Li bank. > > 1. Load dump can mean different things to different chargers. Solar > MPPTs, (boost MPPTs excluded) won't put out more than the solar Voc. > For mobile installations that may include alternator charging, a > "dumped" 12 or 24V alternator may put out 100V plus before the > alternator has a chance to respond and the field current can decay. > Mobile systems should have a mechanism to cut the field current before > popping the BMS relay. > > 2. Most chargers are not power supplies, and are designed to have a > battery attached as the proverbial 900lb gorilla to stabilize the > output voltage and buffer load transients. BMSs should be configured > never to allow chargers and loads to be directly connected without a > battery present. With no battery, load dump transients can destroy > sensitive loads, and brownouts or bus voltage instability is likely. > Best case is if the BMS has separate controls for charge and load > relays, but even with one control output, separate relays for chargers > and loads can prevent many problems. > > 3. Related to #2, most modern MPPTs use synchronous rectification in > their power stage. This means that, fundamentally, they can pump > power into the array from the battery just as well as in the "normal" > direction. It's only the controls that keep power flowing the correct > direction. Let's say a one-relay 24V Li BMS disconnects, leaving > chargers and loads connected. Say things brown out to 10V on the bus, > with the MPPT doing its best to keep things powered, and running from > 75Vmp on the array. BMS decides it's time to reconnect, relay closes, > bus voltage jumps back up to 26V and instantaneously, the MPPT power > stage is still set for a 7.5:1 ratio, so power will get pumped back > into the array, trying to push it up to 26V*7.5=195V, and if the MPPTs > control loop or protection circuits can't respond fast enough, pop go > the MOSFETs (depending on input rating of the MPPT). Separate relays > for chargers and loads should prevent this, as most MPPTs will either > shut down or go to absorption when the battery is disconnected, > preventing the high buck ratios and problems on BMS reconnect. > > 4. As a side note, we get a fair number of tech support calls from Li > battery users complaining of over-voltage LED indications, etc. from > our MPPTs. Almost invariably, this turns out to be a "don't shoot the > messenger" situation, where the lithium battery was never balanced at > the factory (etc.), and is disconnecting, and our controllers are > notifying the user of the problem. Usually a little customer > education (and patience during cell balancing) solves the problem. > > Thank you as always, Wrenches, for all the knowledge you share on this > list. > > Alex MeVay > > Blue Sky Energy * http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com > Genasun * http://www.genasun.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Jan 9 09:56:02 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2019 09:56:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support Message-ID: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, Does Schneider phone support still exist? I filled out an on line form, as a professional, to be able to get phone support. Schneider sent me an email with two numbers to call, and neither of them worked. One did not connect to anything and the other gave me the original message saying to fill out the form for tech support. Using their on-line support has been limited in its usefulness, with a lot of runaround. No one there will answer any questions about phone support availability. The timing of this is interesting, as I was on the verge of using Schneider as my go-to brand for battery based equipment. . One Wrench posting from a while back that stuck in my head was, "before buying equipment, call their tech support to see how good it is." Does anyone know if phone support still exists? Thank you, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adirondackbattery at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 10:34:54 2019 From: adirondackbattery at gmail.com (Amanda Potter) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 10:34:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I am having the same issue. I have Comboxs out there that have the latest firmware, but they haven’t worked for quite a while and my customers are not happy... And, a SW 4024, three years old with the fans running non stop, no matter what the temperatures are and they will not warranty. That is what the last email said from Tech Support. Thoughts? Thanks ahead of time. Amanda Potter NABCEP PV Installation Professional NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC Potsdam, NY (315) 212-2114 > On Jan 9, 2019, at 9:56 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Does Schneider phone support still exist? I filled out an on line form, as a professional, to be able to get phone support. Schneider sent me an email with two numbers to call, and neither of them worked. One did not connect to anything and the other gave me the original message saying to fill out the form for tech support. > > Using their on-line support has been limited in its usefulness, with a lot of runaround. No one there will answer any questions about phone support availability. > > The timing of this is interesting, as I was on the verge of using Schneider as my go-to brand for battery based equipment. . One Wrench posting from a while back that stuck in my head was, "before buying equipment, call their tech support to see how good it is." > > Does anyone know if phone support still exists? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Jan 9 10:44:57 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2019 10:44:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <96b0209c2481a6cd403f3d63339c3e3dfb8feaca@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Did you ever get a working phone support number? ----- Original Message ----- From: "glenn.burt at glbcc.com" To:, "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent:Wed, 09 Jan 2019 10:22:35 -0500 Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support We tried to use their phone support yesterday from an off grid site whose system was down and were directed to their online support services as well. Not happy with the results and wasted man hours that ensued as the tech had to complete online applications while in questionable cell coverage area. Then wait for confirming email. The day was done before we were able to move forward. Glenn Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------ FROM: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [1] DATE: Wed, Jan 9, 2019 9:56 AM TO: RE-wrenches; CC: SUBJECT:[RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support Hello Wrenches, Does Schneider phone support still exist? I filled out an on line form, as a professional, to be able to get phone support. Schneider sent me an email with two numbers to call, and neither of them worked. One did not connect to anything and the other gave me the original message saying to fill out the form for tech support. Using their on-line support has been limited in its usefulness, with a lot of runaround. No one there will answer any questions about phone support availability. The timing of this is interesting, as I was on the verge of using Schneider as my go-to brand for battery based equipment. . One Wrench posting from a while back that stuck in my head was, "before buying equipment, call their tech support to see how good it is." Does anyone know if phone support still exists? Thank you, Drake Links: ------ [1] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Jan 9 10:22:35 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2019 10:22:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support Message-ID: We tried to use their phone support yesterday from an off grid site whose system was down and were directed to their online support services as well.Not happy with the results and wasted man hours that ensued as the tech had to complete online applications while in questionable cell coverage area. Then wait for confirming email. The day was done before we were able to move forward. Glenn Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.orgDate: Wed, Jan 9, 2019 9:56 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support Hello Wrenches, Does Schneider phone support still exist? I filled out an on line form, as a professional, to be able to get phone support. Schneider sent me an email with two numbers to call, and neither of them worked. One did not connect to anything and the other gave me the original message saying to fill out the form for tech support. Using their on-line support has been limited in its usefulness, with a lot of runaround. No one there will answer any questions about phone support availability. The timing of this is interesting, as I was on the verge of using Schneider as my go-to brand for battery based equipment. . One Wrench posting from a while back that stuck in my head was, "before buying equipment, call their tech support to see how good it is." Does anyone know if phone support still exists? Thank you, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Jan 9 13:21:28 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 11:21:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: References: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <593f168d-a4e4-5c39-5240-558c63d63679@solarray.com> Can't help you with the phone support, but the fan running is probably a bad temp sensor on the transformer.  Talk about runaround, you'll probably have to call Schneider support to get the replacement sensor..... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/9/19 8:34 AM, Amanda Potter wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > I am having the same issue. > I have Comboxs out there that have the latest firmware, but they > haven’t worked for quite a while and my customers are not happy... > And, a SW 4024, three years old with the fans running non stop, no > matter what the temperatures are and they will not warranty. > That is what the last email said from Tech Support. > > Thoughts? > > Thanks ahead of time. > > Amanda Potter > NABCEP > PV Installation Professional > NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer > Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC > Potsdam, NY > (315) 212-2114 > > On Jan 9, 2019, at 9:56 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Does Schneider phone support still exist? I filled out an on line >> form, as a professional, to be able to get phone support. Schneider >> sent me an email with two numbers to call, and neither of them >> worked. One did not connect to anything and the other gave me the >> original message saying to fill out the form for tech support. >> >> Using their on-line support has been limited in its usefulness, with >> a lot of runaround. No one there will answer any questions about >> phone support availability. >> >> The timing of this is interesting, as I was on the verge of using >> Schneider as my go-to brand for battery based equipment. . One Wrench >> posting from a while back that stuck in my head was, "before buying >> equipment, call their tech support to see how good it is." >> >> Does anyone know if phone support still exists? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jan 9 13:59:55 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 13:59:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I recently came across Racepoint Energy out of Massachusetts. They have an integrated solution in a steel container with 100kWh storage and add-on storage enclosures. I believe it comes as a UL Listed unit with easy connections for PV, AC in, and AC out. I have seen it in person while investigating solutions for a client with similar desires, but my knowledge of the product and company are limited. I believe the one I saw was 40kW PV with 100kWh storage. I see value in pairing the battery with a suitable inverter/charger in an integrated unit from the factory. Everything should play together nicely. Racepoint is part of Savant, a company focused on high-end home controls. It might not be as ridiculous as you think. There is growing demand for large battery solutions. While generators remain the most practical solution in most backup cases I encounter, there is no question that consumer demand for batteries is high... until they see the price and understand the limitations, that is. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 3:49 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a battery > backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and the > client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't want > Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment would > you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 > batteries? > > Best, August > > *August Goers* > > Luminalt Energy Corporation > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Wed Jan 9 14:59:22 2019 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matthew Sherald) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 14:59:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: <593f168d-a4e4-5c39-5240-558c63d63679@solarray.com> References: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <593f168d-a4e4-5c39-5240-558c63d63679@solarray.com> Message-ID: <6351FB12-E3FC-424D-AE65-B433143FC9EF@getpimby.com> Wrenches, I also had need of tech support from Schneider and was nonplussed when my trusty phone number failed to connect to their service desk. I filled out their installer form and received a reply email with a number and an un-advertised extension. The number gets you the same dead end menu choices but if you dial the secret extension you may be placed in contact with a real live tech person. Anyway, I also posted my issue via the web form and got a delayed response. Good tech support makes a difference when I decide between brands. Schneider used to have very good support. I hope they don’t downsize or otherwise diminish its effectiveness. The new phone/email routine sure left me a bit vexed. -Matt Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 9, 2019, at 1:21 PM, Ray wrote: > > Can't help you with the phone support, but the fan running is probably a bad temp sensor on the transformer. Talk about runaround, you'll probably have to call Schneider support to get the replacement sensor..... > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 >> On 1/9/19 8:34 AM, Amanda Potter wrote: >> Hello Wrenches, >> I am having the same issue. >> I have Comboxs out there that have the latest firmware, but they haven’t worked for quite a while and my customers are not happy... >> And, a SW 4024, three years old with the fans running non stop, no matter what the temperatures are and they will not warranty. >> That is what the last email said from Tech Support. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> Thanks ahead of time. >> >> Amanda Potter >> NABCEP >> PV Installation Professional >> NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer >> Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC >> Potsdam, NY >> (315) 212-2114 >> >> On Jan 9, 2019, at 9:56 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> Does Schneider phone support still exist? I filled out an on line form, as a professional, to be able to get phone support. Schneider sent me an email with two numbers to call, and neither of them worked. One did not connect to anything and the other gave me the original message saying to fill out the form for tech support. >>> >>> Using their on-line support has been limited in its usefulness, with a lot of runaround. No one there will answer any questions about phone support availability. >>> >>> The timing of this is interesting, as I was on the verge of using Schneider as my go-to brand for battery based equipment. . One Wrench posting from a while back that stuck in my head was, "before buying equipment, call their tech support to see how good it is." >>> >>> Does anyone know if phone support still exists? >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 15:05:43 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 15:05:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup In-Reply-To: <64DE8229-BEA6-4CBD-A8AF-D6975270ECE1@gmail.com> References: <64DE8229-BEA6-4CBD-A8AF-D6975270ECE1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, The large 3 phase SMA off-grid that we did actually used Midnite charge controllers and the MN-SMA comm adapter. It has worked well for us. I believe that you can use the SB X.X line in off grid applications. On Wed, Jan 9, 2019, 2:51 PM jay HI Mac, > > I wondering if you know which SMA GT inverters communication with the SI? > > thx > > jay > > > > On Jan 8, 2019, at 1:02 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi August, > > The limitation with the Sunny Island, (if you don't go 3 phase), is a quad > stack of 6048s in a 120/240 system last I checked. I think you can double > that with your islanded Sunny Boys. The 6048 had a ridiculously high surge > rating so it can cover pretty high loads. > > If you go 3 phase with the multicluster box its above 100 kW. > > We have done a 64 kWh Blue Ion and it seems to work extremely well. The > Sunny Island SOC algorithm and Blue Ion SOC don't track perfectly but both > are useful. > > I think you can stack 10 x 8048 Radians but AC coupling then becomes a > problem. > > Good luck with this. > > On Tue, Jan 8, 2019, 3:49 PM August Goers >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a battery >> backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and the >> client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't want >> Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment would >> you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 >> batteries? >> >> Best, August >> >> *August Goers* >> >> Luminalt Energy Corporation >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Jan 9 16:50:32 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 16:50:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Check out the Victron Quattro inverters w/ a 10k inverter w/100 pass thru relay. they also have some really well thought out BMS for use w/ their LiFeP04 batteries and monitoring equipment. > On Jan 8, 2019, at 3:49 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a battery backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and the client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't want Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment would you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 batteries? > > Best, August > August Goers > > Luminalt Energy Corporation > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Jan 9 16:54:38 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 16:54:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: References: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <8E4C4436-270F-4335-8A20-3F7D277655B0@swnl.net> The older SWs is just a simple thermistor replacement. Kris at Tekris power probably has them. > On Jan 9, 2019, at 10:34 AM, Amanda Potter wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > I am having the same issue. > I have Comboxs out there that have the latest firmware, but they haven’t worked for quite a while and my customers are not happy... > And, a SW 4024, three years old with the fans running non stop, no matter what the temperatures are and they will not warranty. > That is what the last email said from Tech Support. > > Thoughts? > > Thanks ahead of time. > > Amanda Potter > NABCEP > PV Installation Professional > NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer > Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC > Potsdam, NY > (315) 212-2114 > > On Jan 9, 2019, at 9:56 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Does Schneider phone support still exist? I filled out an on line form, as a professional, to be able to get phone support. Schneider sent me an email with two numbers to call, and neither of them worked. One did not connect to anything and the other gave me the original message saying to fill out the form for tech support. >> >> Using their on-line support has been limited in its usefulness, with a lot of runaround. No one there will answer any questions about phone support availability. >> >> The timing of this is interesting, as I was on the verge of using Schneider as my go-to brand for battery based equipment. . One Wrench posting from a while back that stuck in my head was, "before buying equipment, call their tech support to see how good it is." >> >> Does anyone know if phone support still exists? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 17:42:29 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 17:42:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hi all, Concerned by this thread, I went through the process of registering as an installer on line. A short while later I was sent an email of acceptance and a phone number. I was implored to not share the number. I did try it and was successful at reaching tech support on first try. Thanks for the warning that the process has changed, it would have been a pain to be on a service call without having gone through this ahead of time. Howie On Wed, Jan 9, 2019, 9:56 AM Hello Wrenches, > > Does Schneider phone support still exist? I filled out an on line form, as > a professional, to be able to get phone support. Schneider sent me an email > with two numbers to call, and neither of them worked. One did not connect > to anything and the other gave me the original message saying to fill out > the form for tech support. > > Using their on-line support has been limited in its usefulness, with a lot > of runaround. No one there will answer any questions about phone support > availability. > > The timing of this is interesting, as I was on the verge of using > Schneider as my go-to brand for battery based equipment. . One Wrench > posting from a while back that stuck in my head was, "before buying > equipment, call their tech support to see how good it is." > > Does anyone know if phone support still exists? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Jan 9 17:49:43 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 17:49:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: References: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <7694EEF7-A415-4CA8-A97F-D257EBAC0614@swnl.net> Are you saying we need to jump thru more hoops to use unreliable/questionable product support? OMG > On Jan 9, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Hi all, > Concerned by this thread, I went through the process of registering as an installer on line. A short while later I was sent an email of acceptance and a phone number. I was implored to not share the number. I did try it and was successful at reaching tech support on first try. Thanks for the warning that the process has changed, it would have been a pain to be on a service call without having gone through this ahead of time. > Howie > > > On Wed, Jan 9, 2019, 9:56 AM wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Does Schneider phone support still exist? I filled out an on line form, as a professional, to be able to get phone support. Schneider sent me an email with two numbers to call, and neither of them worked. One did not connect to anything and the other gave me the original message saying to fill out the form for tech support. > > Using their on-line support has been limited in its usefulness, with a lot of runaround. No one there will answer any questions about phone support availability. > > The timing of this is interesting, as I was on the verge of using Schneider as my go-to brand for battery based equipment. . One Wrench posting from a while back that stuck in my head was, "before buying equipment, call their tech support to see how good it is." > > Does anyone know if phone support still exists? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jan 9 17:39:33 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2019 14:39:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: <8E4C4436-270F-4335-8A20-3F7D277655B0@swnl.net> References: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <8E4C4436-270F-4335-8A20-3F7D277655B0@swnl.net> Message-ID: What firmware revision is in the CSW's please? If you download the firmware there is a revision page that says what was fixed. The fan issue was 3 revisions back. If the fan circuit is damaged, the default is fans on. I only use XW's for my clients because they are what should be used offgrid in my opinion. Two years is the warranty period for a CSW and 5 or 10 for an XW. I am not defending this phone thing but I will get back with what I find out. I agree totally about the phone business. I can say that most of the folks in Burnaby where Schneider Solar is are often out around this time of year. Many tech companies holiday for at least 2 weeks or more, but I get the frustration. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 16:54:38 -0500, Tump wrote: The older SWs is just a simple thermistor replacement. Kris at Tekris power probably has them. On Jan 9, 2019, at 10:34 AM, Amanda Potter wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am having the same issue. I have Comboxs out there that have the latest firmware, but they haven't worked for quite a while and my customers are not happy... And, a SW 4024, three years old with the fans running non stop, no matter what the temperatures are and they will not warranty. That is what the last email said from Tech Support. Thoughts? Thanks ahead of time. Amanda Potter NABCEP PV Installation Professional NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer Adirondack Battery ">(315) 212-2114 On Jan 9, 2019, at 9:56 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [4] wrote: Hello Wrenches, Does Schneider phone support still exist? I filled out an on line form, as a professional, to be able to get phone support. Schneider sent me an email with two numbers to call, and neither of them worked. One did not connect to anything and the other gave me the original message saying to fill out the form for tech support. Using their on-line support has been limited in its usefulness, with a lot of runaround. No one there will answer any questions about phone support availability. The timing of this is interesting, as I was on the verge of using Schneider as my go-to brand for battery based equipment. . One Wrench posting from a while back that stuck in my head was, "before buying equipment, call their tech support to see how good it is." Does anyone know if phone support still exists? Thank you, Drake _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> WWW.SWNL.NET [12] Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE "> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 _ _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:adirondackbattery at gmail.com [4] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [10] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] http://webmail.sti.net/blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Jan 9 20:46:33 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 18:46:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: <7694EEF7-A415-4CA8-A97F-D257EBAC0614@swnl.net> References: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <7694EEF7-A415-4CA8-A97F-D257EBAC0614@swnl.net> Message-ID: I was also considering Schneider for my next system, but this support issue is not encouraging.  Meanwhile the voltage fluctuation issue with the Magnum inverters seems to not cause as much trouble as I first thought.  I tested LED, and CFL lights, along with a small motor, and could not see a perceptible variation in performance.  The fluctuation also seems to slow under load, as I was seeing the voltage dip to 116 from 122 for about 5 sec approx every minute.  Guess I'll be sticking with Magnum, because they still answer the phone. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/9/19 3:49 PM, Tump wrote: > Are you saying we need to jump thru more hoops to use > unreliable/questionable product support? OMG >> On Jan 9, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Howie Michaelson >> > wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> Concerned by this thread, I went through the process of registering >> as an installer on line. A short while later I was sent an email of >> acceptance and a phone number. I was implored to not share the >> number. I did try it and was successful at reaching tech support on >> first try. Thanks for the warning that the process has changed, it >> would have been a pain to be on a service call without having gone >> through this ahead of time. >> Howie >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 9, 2019, 9:56 AM > wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Does Schneider phone support still exist? I filled out an on line >> form, as a professional, to be able to get phone support. >> Schneider sent me an email with two numbers to call, and neither >> of them worked. One did not connect to anything and the other >> gave me the original message saying to fill out the form for tech >> support. >> >> Using their on-line support has been limited in its usefulness, >> with a lot of runaround. No one there will answer any questions >> about phone support availability. >> >> The timing of this is interesting, as I was on the verge of using >> Schneider as my go-to brand for battery based equipment. . One >> Wrench posting from a while back that stuck in my head was, >> "before buying equipment, call their tech support to see how good >> it is." >> >> Does anyone know if phone support still exists? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> *Tump at swnl.net >> **www.SWNL.net* >> >> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >> */       Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >> /**/ 207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401 /* >> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >> >> */             ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**//**/NABCEP    "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >> /**/ >>               ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**/Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 20:06:41 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 17:06:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module level storage Message-ID: <873C180A-9268-4E26-837D-B36CDA82A298@gmail.com> Hi all, I had someone send me this link about a battery storage device that fits under the modules. Curious if anyone has seen it, knows anything about it, or opinions? https://simplglobal.com/ It doesn’t seem right to me. But I bet someone out there knows more, Thx Jay Peltz power. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Jan 10 11:24:33 2019 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 11:24:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just finished consulting on a large island project in North America where the client purchased the Victron system prior to my involvement. Sadly Victron has yet to receive UL approval for use in our neck of the world. So beware. Christopher On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 4:50 PM Tump wrote: > Check out the Victron Quattro inverters w/ a 10k inverter w/100 pass thru > relay. they also have some really well thought out BMS for use w/ their > LiFeP04 batteries and monitoring equipment. > > On Jan 8, 2019, at 3:49 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a battery > backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and the > client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't want > Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment would > you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 > batteries? > > Best, August > > *August Goers* > > Luminalt Energy Corporation > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Thu Jan 10 11:59:14 2019 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 08:59:14 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module level storage In-Reply-To: <873C180A-9268-4E26-837D-B36CDA82A298@gmail.com> References: <873C180A-9268-4E26-837D-B36CDA82A298@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01b401d4a905$d10a97d0$731fc770$@greenwired.com> Hey Jay, Looks like they are really counting on the SGIP to make them worthwhile otherwise the cost just isn’t worth it. And then there is the whole having a bunch of batteries on the roof… Andrew Perkins Greenwired From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 5:07 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module level storage Hi all, I had someone send me this link about a battery storage device that fits under the modules. Curious if anyone has seen it, knows anything about it, or opinions? https://simplglobal.com/ It doesn’t seem right to me. But I bet someone out there knows more, Thx Jay Peltz power. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Jan 10 12:31:47 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:31:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup In-Reply-To: <1BAA04AE-85C4-4D81-AA56-6FA59220412A@roadrunner.com> References: <1BAA04AE-85C4-4D81-AA56-6FA59220412A@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: <863E7E63-E98F-4A23-B103-1B654D230819@swnl.net> > As installers, look at their product line and if we are looking for products that we are able to use AND have support, then we should contact the folks at Victron E and let them know that they are loosing market share to lesser quality products and get their products UL listed. > Good tech support and well thought out products. > asantosbuch at victronenergy.com Alan is formerly from Magnum but moved to a better quality product. T >> On Jan 10, 2019, at 11:24 AM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: >> >> Just finished consulting on a large island project in North America where the client purchased the Victron system prior to my involvement. Sadly Victron has yet to receive UL approval for use in our neck of the world. So beware. >> >> Christopher >> >> On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 4:50 PM Tump > wrote: >> Check out the Victron Quattro inverters w/ a 10k inverter w/100 pass thru relay. they also have some really well thought out BMS for use w/ their LiFeP04 batteries and monitoring equipment. >>> On Jan 8, 2019, at 3:49 PM, August Goers > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a battery backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and the client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't want Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment would you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 batteries? >>> >>> Best, August >>> August Goers >>> >>> Luminalt Energy Corporation >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> Tump at swnl.net <> www.SWNL.net <> >>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >>> Blair "TUMP" May >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >>> >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Jan 10 12:46:08 2019 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:46:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup In-Reply-To: <863E7E63-E98F-4A23-B103-1B654D230819@swnl.net> References: <1BAA04AE-85C4-4D81-AA56-6FA59220412A@roadrunner.com> <863E7E63-E98F-4A23-B103-1B654D230819@swnl.net> Message-ID: Couldn't agree with you more. When I got involved back in November 18' I did just that and spoke to the North American team while they were at the home factory over in Europe. They stated that they hoped to have full UL approval sometime in 2019. I could feel my eyes rolling in my head as I thought back on SMA's claim to provide us with a Sunny Island 240vac 60 hz unit. The joke is on us as when is the last time any of the manufactures actually listened to us out in the trenches. LOL! Good to know Alan has landed on his feet as I'll miss him from the M team. Christopher On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 12:31 PM Tump wrote: > > As installers, look at their product line and if we are looking for > products that we are able to use AND have support, then we should contact > the folks at Victron E and let them know that they are loosing market share > to lesser quality products and get their products UL listed. > Good tech support and well thought out products. > asantosbuch at victronenergy.com Alan is formerly from Magnum but moved to a > better quality product. T > > On Jan 10, 2019, at 11:24 AM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: > > Just finished consulting on a large island project in North America where > the client purchased the Victron system prior to my involvement. Sadly > Victron has yet to receive UL approval for use in our neck of the world. So > beware. > > Christopher > > On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 4:50 PM Tump wrote: > >> Check out the Victron Quattro inverters w/ a 10k inverter w/100 pass thru >> relay. they also have some really well thought out BMS for use w/ their >> LiFeP04 batteries and monitoring equipment. >> >> On Jan 8, 2019, at 3:49 PM, August Goers wrote: >> >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a battery >> backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and the >> client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't want >> Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment would >> you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 >> batteries? >> >> Best, August >> >> *August Goers* >> >> Luminalt Energy Corporation >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* >> * 207-832-7574 Cl. >> 610-517-8401 * >> *Blair "TUMP" May* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 12:56:41 2019 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 10:56:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: <6351FB12-E3FC-424D-AE65-B433143FC9EF@getpimby.com> References: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <593f168d-a4e4-5c39-5240-558c63d63679@solarray.com> <6351FB12-E3FC-424D-AE65-B433143FC9EF@getpimby.com> Message-ID: Yes. It's interesting how I often find myself choosing equipment manufacturers based on their tech support rather than the actual equipment specs. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP PV Associate 970.672.4342 On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 8:06 PM Matthew Sherald wrote: > Wrenches, > > I also had need of tech support from Schneider and was nonplussed when my > trusty phone number failed to connect to their service desk. I filled out > their installer form and received a reply email with a number and an > un-advertised extension. The number gets you the same dead end menu choices > but if you dial the secret extension you may be placed in contact with a > real live tech person. > Anyway, I also posted my issue via the web form and got a delayed > response. > Good tech support makes a difference when I decide between brands. > Schneider used to have very good support. I hope they don’t downsize or > otherwise diminish its effectiveness. The new phone/email routine sure left > me a bit vexed. > > -Matt > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 9, 2019, at 1:21 PM, Ray wrote: > > Can't help you with the phone support, but the fan running is probably a > bad temp sensor on the transformer. Talk about runaround, you'll probably > have to call Schneider support to get the replacement sensor..... > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 1/9/19 8:34 AM, Amanda Potter wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > I am having the same issue. > I have Comboxs out there that have the latest firmware, but they haven’t > worked for quite a while and my customers are not happy... > And, a SW 4024, three years old with the fans running non stop, no matter > what the temperatures are and they will not warranty. > That is what the last email said from Tech Support. > > Thoughts? > > Thanks ahead of time. > > Amanda Potter > NABCEP > PV Installation Professional > NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer > Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC > Potsdam, NY > (315) 212-2114 > > On Jan 9, 2019, at 9:56 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Does Schneider phone support still exist? I filled out an on line form, as > a professional, to be able to get phone support. Schneider sent me an email > with two numbers to call, and neither of them worked. One did not connect > to anything and the other gave me the original message saying to fill out > the form for tech support. > > Using their on-line support has been limited in its usefulness, with a lot > of runaround. No one there will answer any questions about phone support > availability. > > The timing of this is interesting, as I was on the verge of using > Schneider as my go-to brand for battery based equipment. . One Wrench > posting from a while back that stuck in my head was, "before buying > equipment, call their tech support to see how good it is." > > Does anyone know if phone support still exists? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jan 10 13:26:01 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 11:26:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: References: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <593f168d-a4e4-5c39-5240-558c63d63679@solarray.com> <6351FB12-E3FC-424D-AE65-B433143FC9EF@getpimby.com> Message-ID: <6d6400c8-4014-fee6-0bcb-81afd16fd1eb@solarray.com> Well, self reported specifications don't mean squat, but long term reputation for reliability and tech support do.  If you can't trust the company, you really can't buy into any of their specs either. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/10/19 10:56 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > Yes. It's interesting how I often find myself choosing equipment > manufacturers based on their tech support rather than the actual > equipment specs. > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > NABCEP PV Associate > > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 8:06 PM Matthew Sherald > wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I also had need of tech support from Schneider and was nonplussed > when my trusty phone number failed to connect to their service > desk. I filled out their installer form and received a reply email > with a number and an un-advertised extension. The number gets you > the same dead end menu choices but if you dial the secret > extension you may be placed in contact with a real live tech person. > Anyway, I also posted my issue via the web form and got a delayed > response. > Good tech support makes a difference when I decide between brands. > Schneider used to have very good support. I hope they don’t > downsize or otherwise diminish its effectiveness. The new > phone/email routine sure left me a bit vexed. > > -Matt > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 9, 2019, at 1:21 PM, Ray > wrote: > >> Can't help you with the phone support, but the fan running is >> probably a bad temp sensor on the transformer.  Talk about >> runaround, you'll probably have to call Schneider support to get >> the replacement sensor..... >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 1/9/19 8:34 AM, Amanda Potter wrote: >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> I am having the same issue. >>> I have Comboxs out there that have the latest firmware, but they >>> haven’t worked for quite a while and my customers are not happy... >>> And, a SW 4024, three years old with the fans running non stop, >>> no matter what the temperatures are and they will not warranty. >>> That is what the last email said from Tech Support. >>> >>> Thoughts? >>> >>> Thanks ahead of time. >>> >>> Amanda Potter >>> NABCEP >>> PV Installation Professional >>> NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer >>> Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC >>> Potsdam, NY >>> (315) 212-2114 >>> >>> On Jan 9, 2019, at 9:56 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>> >>>> Does Schneider phone support still exist? I filled out an on >>>> line form, as a professional, to be able to get phone support. >>>> Schneider sent me an email with two numbers to call, and >>>> neither of them worked. One did not connect to anything and the >>>> other gave me the original message saying to fill out the form >>>> for tech support. >>>> >>>> Using their on-line support has been limited in its usefulness, >>>> with a lot of runaround. No one there will answer any questions >>>> about phone support availability. >>>> >>>> The timing of this is interesting, as I was on the verge of >>>> using Schneider as my go-to brand for battery based equipment. >>>> . One Wrench posting from a while back that stuck in my head >>>> was, "before buying equipment, call their tech support to see >>>> how good it is." >>>> >>>> Does anyone know if phone support still exists? >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Jan 10 15:03:19 2019 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:03:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: <6d6400c8-4014-fee6-0bcb-81afd16fd1eb@solarray.com> References: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <593f168d-a4e4-5c39-5240-558c63d63679@solarray.com> <6351FB12-E3FC-424D-AE65-B433143FC9EF@getpimby.com> <6d6400c8-4014-fee6-0bcb-81afd16fd1eb@solarray.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jan 10 15:24:19 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:24:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: <20190110200519.75231107C4C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <593f168d-a4e4-5c39-5240-558c63d63679@solarray.com> <6351FB12-E3FC-424D-AE65-B433143FC9EF@getpimby.com> <6d6400c8-4014-fee6-0bcb-81afd16fd1eb@solarray.com> <20190110200519.75231107C4C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Thanks Michael! This attach is what I received on December 13. Not a great job on this by Schneider but the number works. The arrow in the screenshot is the code. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:03:19 -0800, Michael Welch wrote: Hi gang. I am posting this on behalf of Sandra Herrera. Hello Re-Wenches, I am sorry to hear the challenges listed here on accessing the Schneider Electric technical support departments. The recent changes made were intended to improve the support to our installer. However, we are still working out bugs. The technical department call center is available to the solar professional, but it does requires a simple first step. You must first register your company by filling out this form (link below) the registration is only needed once per company. After completing the registration, you will receive an email response that will provide you with an unpublished code that will get you through directly to the technical support call center. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/installer-registration/ The 866-519-1470 phone number has not changed, and a new number 833-391-8640 has been added. Once you receive the unpublished access code everyone in your company can use it. I hope this classifies the changes. Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions or concerns. Regards Sandra Herrera sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com [3] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: code for support.PNG Type: image/png Size: 31038 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jan 10 15:55:56 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:55:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: References: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <593f168d-a4e4-5c39-5240-558c63d63679@solarray.com> <6351FB12-E3FC-424D-AE65-B433143FC9EF@getpimby.com> <6d6400c8-4014-fee6-0bcb-81afd16fd1eb@solarray.com> <20190110200519.75231107C4C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <4e6ac8204c4cca535eb9b73ab73bb5f3.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I meant to say the cell number works but I did not have luck with the landline. I spoke with Jimmy in support. Not sure about the code either but it was very fast to speak with them, this time... > > > Thanks Michael! This attach is what I received on December 13. Not a > great job on this by Schneider but the number works. The arrow in the > screenshot is the code. > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where > powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] > e-mail > offgridsolar at sti.net [2] > text 209 813 0060 > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:03:19 > -0800, Michael Welch wrote: Hi gang. I am posting this on behalf of > Sandra > Herrera. > > Hello Re-Wenches, > I am sorry to hear the challenges listed here > on accessing the Schneider Electric technical support departments. > The > recent changes made were intended to improve the support to our installer. > However, we are still working out bugs. > The technical department call > center is available to the solar professional, but it does requires a > simple first step. You must first register your company by filling out > this > form (link below) the registration is only needed once per company. After > completing the registration, you will receive an email response that will > provide you with an unpublished code that will get you through directly to > the technical support call center. > > https://solar.schneider-electric.com/installer-registration/ > The > 866-519-1470 phone number has not changed, and a new number 833-391-8640 > has been added. Once you receive the unpublished access code everyone in > your company can use it. > I hope this classifies the changes. Please feel > free to contact me directly if you have any questions or concerns. > Regards > > Sandra Herrera > sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com [3] > > -- > > > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > [2] > mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net > [3] > mailto:sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Jan 10 16:37:20 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 16:37:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: <4e6ac8204c4cca535eb9b73ab73bb5f3.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: I got through on the mobile number and got good, quick support. The land line number gave a fast busy signal on several tries. Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: offgridsolar at sti.net "RE-wrenches" To:, "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent:Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:55:56 -0800 (PST) Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support I meant to say the cell number works but I did not have luck with the landline. I spoke with Jimmy in support. Not sure about the code either but it was very fast to speak with them, this time... > > > Thanks Michael! This attach is what I received on December 13. Not a > great job on this by Schneider but the number works. The arrow in the > screenshot is the code. > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where > powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] > e-mail > offgridsolar at sti.net [2] > text 209 813 0060 > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:03:19 > -0800, Michael Welch wrote: Hi gang. I am posting this on behalf of > Sandra > Herrera. > > Hello Re-Wenches, > I am sorry to hear the challenges listed here > on accessing the Schneider Electric technical support departments. > The > recent changes made were intended to improve the support to our installer. > However, we are still working out bugs. > The technical department call > center is available to the solar professional, but it does requires a > simple first step. You must first register your company by filling out > this > form (link below) the registration is only needed once per company. After > completing the registration, you will receive an email response that will > provide you with an unpublished code that will get you through directly to > the technical support call center. > > https://solar.schneider-electric.com/installer-registration/ > The > 866-519-1470 phone number has not changed, and a new number 833-391-8640 > has been added. Once you receive the unpublished access code everyone in > your company can use it. > I hope this classifies the changes. Please feel > free to contact me directly if you have any questions or concerns. > Regards > > Sandra Herrera > sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com [3] > > -- > > > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > [2] > mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net > [3] > mailto:sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 10 22:17:01 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 21:17:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, my supplier, just today introduced us to a new product they are selling. This is Werner Electric supply in MN the product is Energport info at energport.com or www.energport.com They have models up to 60 kW and 120 kWh On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 2:49 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a battery > backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and the > client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't want > Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment would > you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 > batteries? > > Best, August > > *August Goers* > > Luminalt Energy Corporation > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 10 22:45:26 2019 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 21:45:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module level storage In-Reply-To: <01b401d4a905$d10a97d0$731fc770$@greenwired.com> References: <873C180A-9268-4E26-837D-B36CDA82A298@gmail.com> <01b401d4a905$d10a97d0$731fc770$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <003b01d4a960$1df2c130$59d84390$@sbcglobal.net> Jay, I don’t know of any battery tech that likes heat that much. Bill Dorsett Flint Hills Renewable Energy & Efficiency Cooperative, Inc. “Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can” Arthur Ashe 1715 Leavenworth Manhattan, KS 66502 www.fhreec.org 785/539-1956 Office 785/564-2583 Cell wmdorsett at cox.net From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Andrew Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2019 10:59 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module level storage Hey Jay, Looks like they are really counting on the SGIP to make them worthwhile otherwise the cost just isn’t worth it. And then there is the whole having a bunch of batteries on the roof… Andrew Perkins Greenwired From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 5:07 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module level storage Hi all, I had someone send me this link about a battery storage device that fits under the modules. Curious if anyone has seen it, knows anything about it, or opinions? https://simplglobal.com/ It doesn’t seem right to me. But I bet someone out there knows more, Thx Jay Peltz power. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Jan 11 09:40:31 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 06:40:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks All for the ideas. For the battery inverters, I'm most interested in sticking with SMA or Schneider which I've had good experience with in the past. Over the past year and a half our experience has been focused on the Tesla Powerwall with SGIP incentivized projects. Tesla is now allowing up to ten Powerwalls per Gateway which is about 135 kWh of storage - more than enough for most folks! But this particular client doesn't want Tesla and insists on wanting more the 200 kWh of storage. As many of your know, SGIP is not for backup purposes but rather for advanced grid support functionality. I'm curious whether we can program with Schneider XW to meet SGIP requirements and I've been under the impression that we can't with the SMA Sunny Island. Regardless, it might be easiest to just program the inverters for backup only operation and just skip the SGIP all together. Best, August On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 7:17 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: > Hi, my supplier, just today introduced us to a new product they are > selling. This is Werner Electric supply in MN the product is Energport > info at energport.com or www.energport.com They have models up to 60 kW > and 120 kWh > > > > > On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 2:49 PM August Goers wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a battery >> backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and the >> client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't want >> Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment would >> you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 >> batteries? >> >> Best, August >> >> *August Goers* >> >> Luminalt Energy Corporation >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 10:06:43 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 07:06:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E52E3F3-836F-4345-A688-AE1BB5E7020A@gmail.com> Hi August Did you tell us how many kW of battery inverter you needed? Jay > On Jan 11, 2019, at 6:40 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Thanks All for the ideas. For the battery inverters, I'm most interested in sticking with SMA or Schneider which I've had good experience with in the past. Over the past year and a half our experience has been focused on the Tesla Powerwall with SGIP incentivized projects. Tesla is now allowing up to ten Powerwalls per Gateway which is about 135 kWh of storage - more than enough for most folks! But this particular client doesn't want Tesla and insists on wanting more the 200 kWh of storage. As many of your know, SGIP is not for backup purposes but rather for advanced grid support functionality. I'm curious whether we can program with Schneider XW to meet SGIP requirements and I've been under the impression that we can't with the SMA Sunny Island. Regardless, it might be easiest to just program the inverters for backup only operation and just skip the SGIP all together. > > Best, August > > >> On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 7:17 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: >> Hi, my supplier, just today introduced us to a new product they are selling. This is Werner Electric supply in MN the product is Energport info at energport.com or www.energport.com They have models up to 60 kW and 120 kWh >> >> >> >> >>> On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 2:49 PM August Goers wrote: >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a battery backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and the client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't want Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment would you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 batteries? >>> >>> Best, August >>> August Goers >>> >>> Luminalt Energy Corporation >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Jan 11 14:37:04 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 11:37:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup In-Reply-To: <4E52E3F3-836F-4345-A688-AE1BB5E7020A@gmail.com> References: <4E52E3F3-836F-4345-A688-AE1BB5E7020A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay - The battery kW rating isn't necessarily set. Assuming a 60 kW-DC PV system, we might have about ~50 kW (or a bit more) of PV inverter rating so I'd by default match the battery inverter rating to that (about 50 kW) if it was AC coupled. If, for example, we go with four SMA 6048-US Sunny Islands as our constraint then we might need to split up some of the PV to be solely grid tied. Long story short, I'm not sure yet. August On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 10:09 AM Jay wrote: > Hi August > Did you tell us how many kW of battery inverter you needed? > > Jay > > On Jan 11, 2019, at 6:40 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Thanks All for the ideas. For the battery inverters, I'm most interested > in sticking with SMA or Schneider which I've had good experience with in > the past. Over the past year and a half our experience has been focused on > the Tesla Powerwall with SGIP incentivized > projects. Tesla is now allowing up to ten Powerwalls per Gateway which is > about 135 kWh of storage - more than enough for most folks! But this > particular client doesn't want Tesla and insists on wanting more the 200 > kWh of storage. As many of your know, SGIP is not for backup purposes but > rather for advanced grid support functionality. I'm curious whether we can > program with Schneider XW to meet SGIP requirements and I've been under the > impression that we can't with the SMA Sunny Island. Regardless, it might be > easiest to just program the inverters for backup only operation and just > skip the SGIP all together. > > Best, August > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 7:17 PM Darryl Thayer > wrote: > >> Hi, my supplier, just today introduced us to a new product they are >> selling. This is Werner Electric supply in MN the product is Energport >> info at energport.com or www.energport.com They have models up to 60 kW >> and 120 kWh >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 2:49 PM August Goers wrote: >> >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a battery >>> backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and the >>> client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't want >>> Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment would >>> you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 >>> batteries? >>> >>> Best, August >>> >>> *August Goers* >>> >>> Luminalt Energy Corporation >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 13:56:03 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 10:56:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: <20190110200520.99345107ED2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <593f168d-a4e4-5c39-5240-558c63d63679@solarray.com> <6351FB12-E3FC-424D-AE65-B433143FC9EF@getpimby.com> <6d6400c8-4014-fee6-0bcb-81afd16fd1eb@solarray.com> <20190110200520.99345107ED2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hi all, In regards to signing up for the special code. Does anyone know how long it takes to get a response? It’s been 2 days now and so far no return email with the “code” Jay Peltz power. > On Jan 10, 2019, at 12:03 PM, Michael Welch wrote: > > Hi gang. I am posting this on behalf of Sandra Herrera. > > Hello Re-Wenches, > I am sorry to hear the challenges listed here on accessing the Schneider Electric technical support departments. > The recent changes made were intended to improve the support to our installer. However, we are still working out bugs. > The technical department call center is available to the solar professional, but it does requires a simple first step. You must first register your company by filling out this form (link below) the registration is only needed once per company. After completing the registration, you will receive an email response that will provide you with an unpublished code that will get you through directly to the technical support call center. > https://solar.schneider-electric.com/installer-registration/ > The 866-519-1470 phone number has not changed, and a new number 833-391-8640 has been added. Once you receive the unpublished access code everyone in your company can use it. > I hope this classifies the changes. Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions or concerns. > Regards > Sandra Herrera > sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jan 11 11:18:15 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 08:18:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <81aaf5f889ac3e01c72dd74ef5a544e5.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Yes is the answer on Schneider. When do you need to order? I can get you a sales engineer as I am working with a few right now. Here is a link to the XW Pro that will meet future needs as well as California Rule 21. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/conext-xw-pro-na-solar-inverter/ FRIDAY ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Thanks All for the ideas. For the battery inverters, I'm most interested > in > sticking with SMA or Schneider which I've had good experience with in the > past. Over the past year and a half our experience has been focused on the > Tesla Powerwall with SGIP incentivized > projects. Tesla is now allowing up to ten Powerwalls per Gateway which is > about 135 kWh of storage - more than enough for most folks! But this > particular client doesn't want Tesla and insists on wanting more the 200 > kWh of storage. As many of your know, SGIP is not for backup purposes but > rather for advanced grid support functionality. I'm curious whether we can > program with Schneider XW to meet SGIP requirements and I've been under > the > impression that we can't with the SMA Sunny Island. Regardless, it might > be > easiest to just program the inverters for backup only operation and just > skip the SGIP all together. > > Best, August > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 7:17 PM Darryl Thayer > wrote: > >> Hi, my supplier, just today introduced us to a new product they are >> selling. This is Werner Electric supply in MN the product is Energport >> info at energport.com or www.energport.com They have models up to 60 kW >> and 120 kWh >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 2:49 PM August Goers wrote: >> >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a >>> battery >>> backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied and >>> the >>> client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and doesn't >>> want >>> Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of equipment >>> would >>> you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue Ion LiFePO4 >>> batteries? >>> >>> Best, August >>> >>> *August Goers* >>> >>> Luminalt Energy Corporation >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 15:32:03 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 15:32:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: References: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <593f168d-a4e4-5c39-5240-558c63d63679@solarray.com> <6351FB12-E3FC-424D-AE65-B433143FC9EF@getpimby.com> <6d6400c8-4014-fee6-0bcb-81afd16fd1eb@solarray.com> <20190110200520.99345107ED2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: My response was within an hour I believe. On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 3:26 PM Jay wrote: > Hi all, > > In regards to signing up for the special code. Does anyone know how long > it takes to get a response? > > It’s been 2 days now and so far no return email with the “code” > > Jay > Peltz power. > > On Jan 10, 2019, at 12:03 PM, Michael Welch > wrote: > > Hi gang. I am posting this on behalf of Sandra Herrera. > > Hello Re-Wenches, > I am sorry to hear the challenges listed here on accessing the Schneider > Electric technical support departments. > The recent changes made were intended to improve the support to our > installer. However, we are still working out bugs. > The technical department call center is available to the solar > professional, but it does requires a simple first step. You must first > register your company by filling out this form (link below) the > registration is only needed once per company. After completing the > registration, you will receive an email response that will provide you with > an unpublished code that will get you through directly to the technical > support call center. > https://solar.schneider-electric.com/installer-registration/ > The 866-519-1470 phone number has not changed, and a new number > 833-391-8640 has been added. Once you receive the unpublished access code > everyone in your company can use it. > I hope this classifies the changes. Please feel free to contact me > directly if you have any questions or concerns. > Regards > Sandra Herrera > sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jan 11 15:44:04 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 12:44:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: References: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <593f168d-a4e4-5c39-5240-558c63d63679@solarray.com> <6351FB12-E3FC-424D-AE65-B433143FC9EF@getpimby.com> <6d6400c8-4014-fee6-0bcb-81afd16fd1eb@solarray.com> <20190110200520.99345107ED2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: It took me 3 days from the 10th of DEC. to the 13th when I got mine. There are still some glitches see below. One must also keep in mind the huge number of really crazy calls from DIY people who had no training installing systems. I know it sucks now but rumors of a really good interactive FAQ specific to Schneider Solar will help those folks and keep the lines available for us. I always tell them how much I miss the Xantrex user forum but.... Hi Dave, I think we have another communications issue. xxx'd out code info I will get the confirmation message update the message afterwards and let you know. Again thank you for your support. You are speeding up troubleshooting our new system incredibly. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Hi all, > > In regards to signing up for the special code. Does anyone know how long > it takes to get a response? > > It’s been 2 days now and so far no return email with the “code” > > Jay > Peltz power. > >> On Jan 10, 2019, at 12:03 PM, Michael Welch >> wrote: >> >> Hi gang. I am posting this on behalf of Sandra Herrera. >> >> Hello Re-Wenches, >> I am sorry to hear the challenges listed here on accessing the Schneider >> Electric technical support departments. >> The recent changes made were intended to improve the support to our >> installer. However, we are still working out bugs. >> The technical department call center is available to the solar >> professional, but it does requires a simple first step. You must first >> register your company by filling out this form (link below) the >> registration is only needed once per company. After completing the >> registration, you will receive an email response that will provide you >> with an unpublished code that will get you through directly to the >> technical support call center. >> https://solar.schneider-electric.com/installer-registration/ >> The 866-519-1470 phone number has not changed, and a new number >> 833-391-8640 has been added. Once you receive the unpublished access >> code everyone in your company can use it. >> I hope this classifies the changes. Please feel free to contact me >> directly if you have any questions or concerns. >> Regards >> Sandra Herrera >> sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From bill at berkssolar.com Fri Jan 11 20:58:44 2019 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 01:58:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support In-Reply-To: References: <29c50f32894cbe2f5ce56a881ae7f6bcd2e4117a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <593f168d-a4e4-5c39-5240-558c63d63679@solarray.com> <6351FB12-E3FC-424D-AE65-B433143FC9EF@getpimby.com> <6d6400c8-4014-fee6-0bcb-81afd16fd1eb@solarray.com> <20190110200520.99345107ED2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <1690975082.18613859.1547258324886@mail.yahoo.com> We received a response in a day. Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC From: Jay To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Phone Support Hi all, In regards to signing up for the special code. Does anyone know how long it takes to get a response?   It’s been 2 days now and so far no return email with the “code” JayPeltz power.  On Jan 10, 2019, at 12:03 PM, Michael Welch wrote: Hi gang. I am posting this on behalf of Sandra Herrera. Hello Re-Wenches, I am sorry to hear the challenges listed here on accessing the SchneiderElectric technical support departments. The recent changes made were intended to improve the support to ourinstaller. However, we are still working out bugs. The technical department call center is available to the solarprofessional, but it does requires a simple first step. You must firstregister your company by filling out this form (link below) theregistration is only needed once per company. After completing theregistration, you will receive an email response that will provide youwith an unpublished code that will get you through directly to thetechnical support call center. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/installer-registration/ The 866-519-1470 phone number has not changed, and a new number833-391-8640 has been added. Once you receive the unpublished access codeeveryone in your company can use it. I hope this classifies the changes. Please feel free to contact medirectly if you have any questions or concerns. Regards Sandra Herrera sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 22:22:49 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 21:22:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment ideas for very large residential PV and battery backup In-Reply-To: References: <4E52E3F3-836F-4345-A688-AE1BB5E7020A@gmail.com> Message-ID: just a thought, when trying to parallel 4 XW inverters several years ago, the problem arose with paralleling the internal relays, going from grid to back up power and back, burning the contacts. If you truly want 60 kW or close you need 9 or 10 XWs in parallel. Outback uses the same relay. Is your project 3 phase? On the batteries, the max anyone talks about on discharge of Li-ion is 2 hr. suggesting a120 kWh battery for a 60 kW inverter. On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 1:37 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi Jay - The battery kW rating isn't necessarily set. Assuming a 60 kW-DC > PV system, we might have about ~50 kW (or a bit more) of PV inverter rating > so I'd by default match the battery inverter rating to that (about 50 kW) > if it was AC coupled. If, for example, we go with four SMA 6048-US Sunny > Islands as our constraint then we might need to split up some of the PV to > be solely grid tied. Long story short, I'm not sure yet. > > August > > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 10:09 AM Jay wrote: > >> Hi August >> Did you tell us how many kW of battery inverter you needed? >> >> Jay >> >> On Jan 11, 2019, at 6:40 AM, August Goers wrote: >> >> Thanks All for the ideas. For the battery inverters, I'm most interested >> in sticking with SMA or Schneider which I've had good experience with in >> the past. Over the past year and a half our experience has been focused on >> the Tesla Powerwall with SGIP incentivized >> projects. Tesla is now allowing up to ten Powerwalls per Gateway which is >> about 135 kWh of storage - more than enough for most folks! But this >> particular client doesn't want Tesla and insists on wanting more the 200 >> kWh of storage. As many of your know, SGIP is not for backup purposes but >> rather for advanced grid support functionality. I'm curious whether we can >> program with Schneider XW to meet SGIP requirements and I've been under the >> impression that we can't with the SMA Sunny Island. Regardless, it might be >> easiest to just program the inverters for backup only operation and just >> skip the SGIP all together. >> >> Best, August >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 7:17 PM Darryl Thayer >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, my supplier, just today introduced us to a new product they are >>> selling. This is Werner Electric supply in MN the product is Energport >>> info at energport.com or www.energport.com They have models up to 60 kW >>> and 120 kWh >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 2:49 PM August Goers wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Wrenches, >>>> >>>> We have a new potential client who wants a 60 kW PV system and a >>>> battery backup system with 200 kWh of storage. The system will be grid tied >>>> and the client insists on some sort of lithium battery technology and >>>> doesn't want Tesla. For such a ridiculously large system, what kind of >>>> equipment would you recommend? I'm thinking maybe Sunny Islands with Blue >>>> Ion LiFePO4 batteries? >>>> >>>> Best, August >>>> >>>> *August Goers* >>>> >>>> Luminalt Energy Corporation >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jan 16 13:42:06 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 10:42:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cost of service upgrade vs Solar credits Message-ID: <7d7244e6cf4183753f395c67a06466ac@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am engaged in a rather complicated decision process regarding an AG customer in PG&E territory. The customer spends a lot of money pumping water and wishes to offset that cost with installation of a grid-tied system. His two services are decrepit and have to be upgraded. There was some question if he will be required to upgrade from single phase to three phase given the size of his motor loads. We received a waiver to allow us to continue with single phase although I am not sure that is the right decision. We were also informed that the $20,000 cost to upgrade the single phase feeder to allow bigger services would be waived because of the potential revenue PG&E would earn over time. There is a review three years out and if the revenue meets projections based on existing loads, the construction credit would remain. If, however, after three years revenue decreased, the credit would be rescinded, requiring the customer to fork over the 20 grand. I was told that if we install solar and zero out the annual bill, that reduction in billing would trigger the rescinding of the credit. I want to check that the utility is interpreting this correctly. Do any of you esteemed wrenches have any experience in this area? Another question: If we go three phase and I wish to use inverters with two hot leads, I know they will work on three phase, but the back-feed will be imbalanced. I know we are allowed some amount of imbalance, but I am not sure how much. Anyone know this answer? I am searching for true three phase inverters in the less than 10kW range. This would require a connection to all three phases. I believe Enphase can do this. Are there any other units you know of? Thanks, William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 16:11:35 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 13:11:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cost of service upgrade vs Solar credits In-Reply-To: <7d7244e6cf4183753f395c67a06466ac@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d7244e6cf4183753f395c67a06466ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, Wrenches, can we assume the utility voltage is 120/208 of so Fronius has some inverters that do that, if it is 277/480 then SMA can do that but neither of them are less then 10k, Enphase does not have a 3 leg inverter just 1/2,2/3/,3/1 leg balance but you can do that with most any single phase inverter. We have had several customers that got hit with Xformer upgrade charges at time of PTO which is a real problem. I agree that is you go solar that the bill would be close to zero now that would trigger the 20 k bill to your customer, better off paying it now and getting FTC while you can. Jerry On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 12:30 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am engaged in a rather complicated decision process regarding an AG > customer in PG&E territory. The customer spends a lot of money pumping > water and wishes to offset that cost with installation of a grid-tied > system. His two services are decrepit and have to be upgraded. There was > some question if he will be required to upgrade from single phase to three > phase given the size of his motor loads. We received a waiver to allow us > to continue with single phase although I am not sure that is the right > decision. > > > > We were also informed that the $20,000 cost to upgrade the single phase > feeder to allow bigger services would be waived because of the potential > revenue PG&E would earn over time. There is a review three years out and > if the revenue meets projections based on existing loads, the construction > credit would remain. If, however, after three years revenue decreased, the > credit would be rescinded, requiring the customer to fork over the 20 grand. > > > > I was told that if we install solar and zero out the annual bill, that > reduction in billing would trigger the rescinding of the credit. I want to > check that the utility is interpreting this correctly. Do any of you > esteemed wrenches have any experience in this area? > > > > Another question: If we go three phase and I wish to use inverters with > two hot leads, I know they will work on three phase, but the back-feed will > be imbalanced. I know we are allowed some amount of imbalance, but I am > not sure how much. Anyone know this answer? > > > > I am searching for true three phase inverters in the less than 10kW > range. This would require a connection to all three phases. I believe > Enphase can do this. Are there any other units you know of? > > > > Thanks, > > > > William > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Jan 16 20:24:54 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 17:24:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cost of service upgrade vs Solar credits In-Reply-To: References: <7d7244e6cf4183753f395c67a06466ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5ec9542b-6f1b-eba4-0ecc-3e7e5fa04b5a@psln.com> William,             I  recently did a GT with PG&E where they allowed me to backfeed 18KW into their 208 /single/ phase (L-L-N). So even though just 2 hots and a neutral were pulled unto this service panel, no doubt the PG&E source (transformer across the street) had 3 phase available....yet I was backfeeding just two of those 3 legs when my backfeed got back over to their transformer.  This is a PTO'ed, operating system.  Years ago I was told they only wanted to see 6KW max out of balance, apparently it depends.             Jerry made a pretty good point about about biting the $20K bullet now and get help from the ITC. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 1/16/2019 1:11 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > William, Wrenches, > can we assume the utility voltage is 120/208 of so Fronius has some > inverters that do that, if it is 277/480 then SMA can do that but > neither of them are less then 10k, Enphase does not have a 3 leg > inverter just 1/2,2/3/,3/1 leg balance but you can do that with most > any single phase inverter. > We have had several customers that got hit with Xformer upgrade > charges at time of PTO which is a real problem. I agree that is you go > solar that the bill would be close to zero now that would trigger the > 20 k bill to your customer, better off paying it now and getting FTC > while you can. > Jerry > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 12:30 PM William Miller > > wrote: > > Friends: > > I am engaged in a rather complicated decision process regarding an > AG customer in PG&E territory.  The customer spends a lot of money > pumping water and wishes to offset that cost with installation of > a grid-tied system.  His two services are decrepit and have to be > upgraded.  There was some question if he will be required to > upgrade from single phase to three phase given the size of his > motor loads.  We received a waiver to allow us to continue with > single phase although I am not sure that is the right decision. > > We were also informed that the $20,000 cost to upgrade the single > phase feeder to allow bigger services would be waived because of > the potential revenue PG&E would earn over time.  There is a > review three years out and if the revenue meets projections based > on existing loads, the construction credit would remain. If, > however, after three years revenue decreased, the credit would be > rescinded, requiring the customer to fork over the 20 grand. > > I was told that if we install solar and zero out the annual bill, > that reduction in billing would trigger the rescinding of the > credit.  I want to check that the utility is interpreting this > correctly.  Do any of you esteemed wrenches have any experience in > this area? > > Another question:  If we go three phase and I wish to use > inverters with two hot leads, I know they will work on three > phase, but the back-feed will be imbalanced.  I know we are > allowed some amount of imbalance, but I am not sure how much.  > Anyone know this answer? > > I am searching for true three phase inverters in the less than > 10kW range.  This would require a connection to all three phases.  > I believe Enphase can do this. Are there any other units you know of? > > Thanks, > > William > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jan 16 21:07:42 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 18:07:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cost of service upgrade vs Solar credits In-Reply-To: References: <7d7244e6cf4183753f395c67a06466ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17d20d4197ee1631337ddc94e3335334@mail.gmail.com> Jerry: Thanks for the reply. If we go three phase I believe we get to pick our voltage. I understand the options are 120/208, 120/240 (open delta) or 277/480. 277/480 won’t work for us because of existing equipment operating at 240 VAC. We have very few 120 loads so a stinger won’t hurt my feelings—I would pick the 120/240. I can do an AB/AC/BC installation with many residential inverters, but at the less than 10K this become problematic: We actually need to split the 10K system size into a 4K and a 6K to offset annual kWh on two meters. By the time you divide these smaller systems into 3 inverters, you don’t have enough panels to meet the MPPT lower threshold. This is where Enphase actually makes some sense. Furthermore, too many string inverters makes the job expensive. It looks like there are real three phase inverter options and I will keep looking. I won’t touch a Fronius. The new equipment may be improved, but I am still burnt by a 500% failure rate of IG inverters and some serious character assassination by Fronius management in dealing with clients. I misquoted the $20K cost to upgrade. This number came from an earlier hypothetical scenario. I need to get real numbers for this project to perform an accurate budget analysis. Thanks for the great input, both online and offline. I feel like we are family. While the complexities of these projects can be a headache, they make the job interesting. William *From:* Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, January 16, 2019 1:12 PM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Cost of service upgrade vs Solar credits William, Wrenches, can we assume the utility voltage is 120/208 of so Fronius has some inverters that do that, if it is 277/480 then SMA can do that but neither of them are less then 10k, Enphase does not have a 3 leg inverter just 1/2,2/3/,3/1 leg balance but you can do that with most any single phase inverter. We have had several customers that got hit with Xformer upgrade charges at time of PTO which is a real problem. I agree that is you go solar that the bill would be close to zero now that would trigger the 20 k bill to your customer, better off paying it now and getting FTC while you can. Jerry On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 12:30 PM William Miller wrote: Friends: I am engaged in a rather complicated decision process regarding an AG customer in PG&E territory. The customer spends a lot of money pumping water and wishes to offset that cost with installation of a grid-tied system. His two services are decrepit and have to be upgraded. There was some question if he will be required to upgrade from single phase to three phase given the size of his motor loads. We received a waiver to allow us to continue with single phase although I am not sure that is the right decision. We were also informed that the $20,000 cost to upgrade the single phase feeder to allow bigger services would be waived because of the potential revenue PG&E would earn over time. There is a review three years out and if the revenue meets projections based on existing loads, the construction credit would remain. If, however, after three years revenue decreased, the credit would be rescinded, requiring the customer to fork over the 20 grand. I was told that if we install solar and zero out the annual bill, that reduction in billing would trigger the rescinding of the credit. I want to check that the utility is interpreting this correctly. Do any of you esteemed wrenches have any experience in this area? Another question: If we go three phase and I wish to use inverters with two hot leads, I know they will work on three phase, but the back-feed will be imbalanced. I know we are allowed some amount of imbalance, but I am not sure how much. Anyone know this answer? I am searching for true three phase inverters in the less than 10kW range. This would require a connection to all three phases. I believe Enphase can do this. Are there any other units you know of? Thanks, William _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 17:02:53 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 14:02:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Contractor Message-ID: Wrenches I am looking for help, I need a solar contractor in Calaveras County does anyone have any recommendations, contact me off list if you do please. Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Mon Jan 21 14:57:09 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 19:57:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cost of service upgrade vs Solar credits In-Reply-To: <17d20d4197ee1631337ddc94e3335334@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d7244e6cf4183753f395c67a06466ac@mail.gmail.com> <17d20d4197ee1631337ddc94e3335334@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William – Not sure what array size you intend to use, but with the Sunny Boy 3.8-US unit at 208V the max output power is 3.33kW (as current is limited to 16A for breaker sizing at 240V). So 3 of these units gives “balanced” 3 phase 10kW, but at the cost of three inverters. Two input channels available for each inverter, so you could have an east/west oversized array. Our datasheet specifies the max STC array for the 3.8 is 5396Wp. (Each input cannot be exposed to more than 18A Isc ever, but each channel will draw max 10A in operation.) Each input channel needs 125VDC to start making power, then will work down to 100V (may be lower than CEC efficiency though – I would go for higher voltage fewer strings). And this setup would give the customer three SPS outlets in case of utility outage. Those outlets are 120V each, and cannot be synchronized. Up to 2000W for each, subject to what the array attached to the inverter can produce at any given moment. Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D45E26.3FF7F550] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2019 7:08 PM To: Jerry Shafer ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cost of service upgrade vs Solar credits Jerry: Thanks for the reply. If we go three phase I believe we get to pick our voltage. I understand the options are 120/208, 120/240 (open delta) or 277/480. 277/480 won’t work for us because of existing equipment operating at 240 VAC. We have very few 120 loads so a stinger won’t hurt my feelings—I would pick the 120/240. I can do an AB/AC/BC installation with many residential inverters, but at the less than 10K this become problematic: We actually need to split the 10K system size into a 4K and a 6K to offset annual kWh on two meters. By the time you divide these smaller systems into 3 inverters, you don’t have enough panels to meet the MPPT lower threshold. This is where Enphase actually makes some sense. Furthermore, too many string inverters makes the job expensive. It looks like there are real three phase inverter options and I will keep looking. I won’t touch a Fronius. The new equipment may be improved, but I am still burnt by a 500% failure rate of IG inverters and some serious character assassination by Fronius management in dealing with clients. I misquoted the $20K cost to upgrade. This number came from an earlier hypothetical scenario. I need to get real numbers for this project to perform an accurate budget analysis. Thanks for the great input, both online and offline. I feel like we are family. While the complexities of these projects can be a headache, they make the job interesting. William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: image006.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19456 bytes Desc: image007.jpg URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 23:13:58 2019 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 23:13:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries Message-ID: Awhile back, it was mentioned that missmatched cell voltages could be corrected with a 6 volt charger attached to each low layer. I tried this on one and it worked. I have several stacks that have mostly even voltages with one cell over charged. Often 8 to 25 volts. Some showed the high voltage layer when under charge but looked normal when static. Others had the high voltage even when static. Are these layers just totally defective or could the voltage be bled off somehow down to the average. Has anyone tried this. I have three customers with Aquions that are working well and staying balanced. This customer has 24 batteries and 13 show this problem. Capacity of the bank is very poor. Customer is ready to call lawyer! Any ideas? Tump, yes these include the batteries from Maine but also half of his original 12 are showing the same problem. John Blittersdorf. CV Wind Service (and Solar) 200 West Road N Chittenden, VT 05763 802-770-8625 PS Also any feedback on the Simpliphi batteries would be appreciated. I have just two systems using these so far. Both small. 2 48 v and 5 24v. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jan 23 12:05:44 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 09:05:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Simplyphi does not have a built in method for Soc. The BMS works well but the install requires an energy monitor with a shunt. Too much work for me and my clients. Their batteries are too small at 3.5 kwh or so. If they changed the size up, and got Soc out to OUtback or Schneider I would use them. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Awhile back, it was mentioned that missmatched cell voltages could be > corrected with a 6 volt charger attached to each low layer. I tried this > on one and it worked. I have several stacks that have mostly even > voltages > with one cell over charged. Often 8 to 25 volts. Some showed the high > voltage layer when under charge but looked normal when static. Others had > the high voltage even when static. Are these layers just totally > defective > or could the voltage be bled off somehow down to the average. Has anyone > tried this. I have three customers with Aquions that are working well > and > staying balanced. This customer has 24 batteries and 13 show this > problem. > Capacity of the bank is very poor. Customer is ready to call lawyer! Any > ideas? > Tump, yes these include the batteries from Maine but also half of his > original 12 are showing the same problem. > > John Blittersdorf. > CV Wind Service (and Solar) > 200 West Road > N Chittenden, VT 05763 > 802-770-8625 > > > PS Also any feedback on the Simpliphi batteries would be appreciated. I > have just two systems using these so far. Both small. 2 48 v and 5 > 24v. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 17:08:55 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 16:08:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have used Simphiphy. Had a problem over time nearly 2 years the cells were what appears to be out of balance. I think i balanced them by setting the charge voltage higher than recomended. I think the factory has it wrong On Wed, Jan 23, 2019, 1:39 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net wrote: > Simplyphi does not have a built in method for Soc. The BMS works well but > the install requires an energy monitor with a shunt. Too much work for me > and my clients. Their batteries are too small at 3.5 kwh or so. If they > changed the size up, and got Soc out to OUtback or Schneider I would use > them. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > Awhile back, it was mentioned that missmatched cell voltages could be > > corrected with a 6 volt charger attached to each low layer. I tried this > > on one and it worked. I have several stacks that have mostly even > > voltages > > with one cell over charged. Often 8 to 25 volts. Some showed the high > > voltage layer when under charge but looked normal when static. Others > had > > the high voltage even when static. Are these layers just totally > > defective > > or could the voltage be bled off somehow down to the average. Has anyone > > tried this. I have three customers with Aquions that are working well > > and > > staying balanced. This customer has 24 batteries and 13 show this > > problem. > > Capacity of the bank is very poor. Customer is ready to call lawyer! > Any > > ideas? > > Tump, yes these include the batteries from Maine but also half of his > > original 12 are showing the same problem. > > > > John Blittersdorf. > > CV Wind Service (and Solar) > > 200 West Road > > N Chittenden, VT 05763 > > 802-770-8625 > > > > > > PS Also any feedback on the Simpliphi batteries would be appreciated. I > > have just two systems using these so far. Both small. 2 48 v and 5 > > 24v. > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jan 23 19:29:24 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 16:29:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5c4906e7.1c69fb81.b9aec.1195@mx.google.com> DarrylYou might want to look at Blue ion, have a bunch installed and they have been great "Mars Mission Ready" great, had a customer that survived the Fires 2 years ago and all the time with no power these batteries kept up.Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Darryl Thayer Date: 1/23/19 2:08 PM (GMT-08:00) To: offgridsolar at sti.net, newrewrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries I have used Simphiphy.  Had a problem  over time nearly 2 years the cells were what appears to be out of balance.  I think i balanced them by setting the charge voltage higher than recomended.  I think the factory has it wrong On Wed, Jan 23, 2019, 1:39 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Awhile back, it was mentioned that missmatched cell voltages could be > corrected with a 6 volt charger attached to each low layer.  I tried this > on one and it worked.  I have several stacks that have mostly even > voltages > with one cell over charged.  Often 8 to 25 volts.  Some showed the high > voltage layer when under charge but looked normal when static.  Others had > the high voltage even when static.  Are these layers just totally > defective > or could the voltage be bled off somehow down to the average.  Has anyone > tried this.  I have three  customers with Aquions that are working well > and > staying balanced.  This customer has 24 batteries and 13 show this > problem. > Capacity of the bank is very poor.  Customer is ready to call lawyer!  Any > ideas? > Tump, yes these include the batteries from Maine but also half of his > original 12 are showing the same problem. > > John Blittersdorf. > CV Wind Service (and Solar) > 200 West Road > N Chittenden, VT 05763 > 802-770-8625 > > > PS Also any feedback on the Simpliphi batteries would be appreciated.  I > have just two systems using these so far.   Both small.  2  48 v and 5 > 24v. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at westcoastsustainables.com Thu Jan 24 17:27:36 2019 From: jason at westcoastsustainables.com (Jason Andrade) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 14:27:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries Message-ID: As for the Simpliphi I have them in a few projects one being Governor Browns offgrid home and my own off-grid residence is powered using them. I recently re-engineered the Outback IBR3 for the phi 3.5 and made an advanced version for my own. I purchased a flexnet battery monitor and used all three channels for the IBR I have a spare Flexmax80 that powers a hub 4 and a second mate 3. You are able to aggregate this data into optics and overlay the two. I’ll admit I haven’t had a lot of time to tweak with it but I think you can see it as an optics preview through outback. I agree data on the Lifpo4 is critical and my understanding is Simpliphi will be releasing a version soon that has comms. I also have a Discover AES bank on my off grid woodshop consisting of 4 of the 6.5 coupled with three of the older xantrex xw inverters this is a great platform so far and you can see the battery as a device on the scp, you can also direct connect using a usb to usb cable to the battery and upload firmware and see the battery specifics Jason Andrade West Coast Sustainables Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 23, 2019, at 2:21 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 16:08:55 -0600 > From: Darryl Thayer > To: offgridsolar at sti.net, newrewrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I have used Simphiphy. Had a problem over time nearly 2 years the cells > were what appears to be out of balance. I think i balanced them by setting > the charge voltage higher than recomended. I think the factory has it wrong > > On Wed, Jan 23, 2019, 1:39 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net wrote: > >> Simplyphi does not have a built in method for Soc. The BMS works well but >> the install requires an energy monitor with a shunt. Too much work for me >> and my clients. Their batteries are too small at 3.5 kwh or so. If they >> changed the size up, and got Soc out to OUtback or Schneider I would use >> them. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >>> Awhile back, it was mentioned that missmatched cell voltages could be >>> corrected with a 6 volt charger attached to each low layer. I tried this >>> on one and it worked. I have several stacks that have mostly even >>> voltages >>> with one cell over charged. Often 8 to 25 volts. Some showed the high >>> voltage layer when under charge but looked normal when static. Others >> had >>> the high voltage even when static. Are these layers just totally >>> defective >>> or could the voltage be bled off somehow down to the average. Has anyone >>> tried this. I have three customers with Aquions that are working well >>> and >>> staying balanced. This customer has 24 batteries and 13 show this >>> problem. >>> Capacity of the bank is very poor. Customer is ready to call lawyer! >> Any >>> ideas? >>> Tump, yes these include the batteries from Maine but also half of his >>> original 12 are showing the same problem. >>> >>> John Blittersdorf. >>> CV Wind Service (and Solar) >>> 200 West Road >>> N Chittenden, VT 05763 >>> 802-770-8625 Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 24, 2019, at 2:04 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: > > Re: Aquion Batteries -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Jan 25 12:54:21 2019 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:54:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Scale / HV Battery Based Systems. Message-ID: Hello Wrenches... I've got a question for you guys. Please forgive me if this is stepping out of bounds... As you know I work for Rolls Battery, but I am also involved a bit in some moonlighting on system development, but mostly consulting on what I call "orphaned solar systems"... I got a request yesterday from a good client in South America who wants to power a very large building and needs to power a continuous load of 80kw for 14-16 hours daily. They are currently spending about $15,000.00 per month on fuel to run a generator. To this point, it's absolutely crazy in my mind to design a 48 volt system for this, it makes no sense to me to do so, unless you do a SMA Boy/Island Multi-cluster system... Has anyone worked with companies like Ideal Power or Princeton Power that would do high voltage battery based inverter/charger? Are there any other companies out there that make an "off the shelf" product that would do this effectively? What other options would you suggest? Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Fri Jan 25 16:14:57 2019 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 13:14:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Scale / HV Battery Based Systems. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <048701d4b4f3$07161f90$15425eb0$@greenwired.com> Hey Steve, Check out EnergPort they have some commercial turnkey systems that can just dropped in. http://www.energport.com/utility-scale-ac-container/ Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 F: 707-923-2077 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Steve Higgins Sent: Friday, January 25, 2019 9:54 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Scale / HV Battery Based Systems. Hello Wrenches... I've got a question for you guys. Please forgive me if this is stepping out of bounds... As you know I work for Rolls Battery, but I am also involved a bit in some moonlighting on system development, but mostly consulting on what I call "orphaned solar systems"... I got a request yesterday from a good client in South America who wants to power a very large building and needs to power a continuous load of 80kw for 14-16 hours daily. They are currently spending about $15,000.00 per month on fuel to run a generator. To this point, it's absolutely crazy in my mind to design a 48 volt system for this, it makes no sense to me to do so, unless you do a SMA Boy/Island Multi-cluster system... Has anyone worked with companies like Ideal Power or Princeton Power that would do high voltage battery based inverter/charger? Are there any other companies out there that make an "off the shelf" product that would do this effectively? What other options would you suggest? Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com _____ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. _____ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Fri Jan 25 17:01:00 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:01:00 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] comparing batteries Message-ID: <01ee01d4b4f9$77063960$6512ac20$@com> With the attachment this time. Aloha all, I thought many of you might find the attached table of interest. marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SolarQuotes - Battery.xlsx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.sheet Size: 141832 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Fri Jan 25 17:00:36 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:00:36 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] comparing batteries Message-ID: <01e901d4b4f9$68bf4950$3a3ddbf0$@com> Aloha all, I thought many of you might find the attached table of interest. marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 00:47:45 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:47:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] comparing batteries In-Reply-To: <01e901d4b4f9$68bf4950$3a3ddbf0$@com> References: <01e901d4b4f9$68bf4950$3a3ddbf0$@com> Message-ID: Marco I do not see Blue planet Blue Ion Batteries which are UL listed and have a 15 year warranty and are a proven track record with a operational BMS Jerry On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 4:33 PM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Aloha all, > > > > I thought many of you might find the attached table of interest. > > > > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 10:46:28 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 07:46:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] comparing batteries In-Reply-To: References: <01e901d4b4f9$68bf4950$3a3ddbf0$@com> Message-ID: <7EFCDEDB-01BF-45DE-8208-8F0DE15ED4A4@gmail.com> The prices are all in Australian $, which I assumed this list is just for the ozzy market. Jay > On Jan 25, 2019, at 9:47 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Marco > I do not see Blue planet Blue Ion Batteries which are UL listed and have a 15 year warranty and are a proven track record with a operational BMS > Jerry > >> On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 4:33 PM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: >> Aloha all, >> >> >> >> I thought many of you might find the attached table of interest. >> >> >> >> marco >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sat Jan 26 02:10:09 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:10:09 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] comparing batteries In-Reply-To: References: <01e901d4b4f9$68bf4950$3a3ddbf0$@com> Message-ID: Didn't catch that, Jerry. I agree re: Blue Ion. I wish that Sony would make a HV version that would be compatible with the SolarEdge StorEdge and SMA Sunny Storage. I had nothing to do with making the table and will try and reach the author. marco On Friday, January 25, 2019, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Marco > I do not see Blue planet Blue Ion Batteries which are UL listed and have a > 15 year warranty and are a proven track record with a operational BMS > Jerry > > On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 4:33 PM Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > >> Aloha all, >> >> >> >> I thought many of you might find the attached table of interest. >> >> >> >> marco >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Sat Jan 26 20:02:07 2019 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 20:02:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA WLAN? Message-ID: <2FDC9757-7552-4AD9-B688-936B7E8803F5@icloud.com> What frequency does the Sunnyboy Inverter (SB7.7-US) Wi-Fi use to connect-operate on? 2.4 or 5 GHz? Or both? Can’t find the answer anywhere in the SMA documentation. Thanks. Kirk Herander From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Jan 26 11:35:54 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 08:35:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] comparing batteries In-Reply-To: References: <01e901d4b4f9$68bf4950$3a3ddbf0$@com> Message-ID: Sony Sold their lion battery business BTW. Blue Ion uses the company I can't remember in their LFP battery. --Dave > Didn't catch that, Jerry. > > I agree re: Blue Ion. I wish that Sony would make a HV version that would > be compatible with the SolarEdge StorEdge and SMA Sunny Storage. > > I had nothing to do with making the table and will try and reach the > author. > > marco > > On Friday, January 25, 2019, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Marco >> I do not see Blue planet Blue Ion Batteries which are UL listed and have >> a >> 15 year warranty and are a proven track record with a operational BMS >> Jerry >> >> On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 4:33 PM Marco Mangelsdorf >> wrote: >> >>> Aloha all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I thought many of you might find the attached table of interest. >>> >>> >>> >>> marco >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 11:48:28 2019 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 11:48:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA WLAN? In-Reply-To: <2FDC9757-7552-4AD9-B688-936B7E8803F5@icloud.com> References: <2FDC9757-7552-4AD9-B688-936B7E8803F5@icloud.com> Message-ID: Either but 5 is preferable. On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 11:18 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > What frequency does the Sunnyboy Inverter (SB7.7-US) Wi-Fi use to > connect-operate on? 2.4 or 5 GHz? Or both? Can’t find the answer anywhere > in the SMA documentation. Thanks. > > Kirk Herander > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Mon Jan 28 12:28:14 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 17:28:14 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA WLAN? In-Reply-To: References: <2FDC9757-7552-4AD9-B688-936B7E8803F5@icloud.com> Message-ID: The WiFi on the Sunny Boy and Sunny Tripower CORE1 operates at 2.4 GHz. Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D45E26.3FF7F550] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of AE Solar Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 9:48 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA WLAN? Either but 5 is preferable. On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 11:18 AM Kirk Herander > wrote: What frequency does the Sunnyboy Inverter (SB7.7-US) Wi-Fi use to connect-operate on? 2.4 or 5 GHz? Or both? Can’t find the answer anywhere in the SMA documentation. Thanks. Kirk Herander _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 428 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19456 bytes Desc: image007.jpg URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Mon Jan 28 12:57:14 2019 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 10:57:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA WLAN? In-Reply-To: References: <2FDC9757-7552-4AD9-B688-936B7E8803F5@icloud.com> Message-ID: > > Either but 5 is preferable. > I would like to politely disagree with this statement and offer my two cents. The 5ghz frequency is superior for high bandwidth activities within short range which in my opinion is not the case with inverter comms. The 2.4 ghz provides a superior connection at farther distances (which I find typical between inverter and router). The amount of data the inverter is sending and receiving is minimal and does not require much in the way of bandwidth. - Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Jan 29 22:29:46 2019 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 03:29:46 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extending Midnite BTS Message-ID: Is it ok to extend the battery temp sensor wire for a classic controller? Length might be around 25 ft max. Original is 15ft. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Wed Jan 30 00:03:32 2019 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 21:03:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extending Midnite BTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7ab1541d-5b85-2d78-f84d-7e9f32cd6699@midnitesolar.com> Yep.  No problem. It's polarity independent also so if one of the ends of the phone plug is backwards, it shouldn't matter. 10K Ohms nominal 25 degree C value for the thermistor if anybody cares. boB On 1/29/2019 7:29 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Is it ok to extend the battery temp sensor wire for a classic controller? > Length might be around 25 ft max. Original is 15ft. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Wed Jan 30 09:35:05 2019 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 09:35:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA WLAN? In-Reply-To: References: <2FDC9757-7552-4AD9-B688-936B7E8803F5@icloud.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately this fact is not mentioned anywhere on the SMA website or either the user or installation manuals of the 7.7 inverter. I am trying to reach the inverter in an out building by using a 5 GHz access point. And obviously this won’t work. Why is this not in the manual? Kirk Herander > On Jan 28, 2019, at 12:28 PM, Harry Mahon wrote: > > The WiFi on the Sunny Boy and Sunny Tripower CORE1 operates at 2.4 GHz. > > Best regards – > Mike > > > SMA America > Michael Mahon > Technical Trainer, Solar Academy > 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 > Rocklin, CA 95765 > U.S.A. > Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 > www.SMA-America.com > > Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html > > Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html > > > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of AE Solar > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 9:48 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA WLAN? > > Either but 5 is preferable. > > On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 11:18 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > What frequency does the Sunnyboy Inverter (SB7.7-US) Wi-Fi use to connect-operate on? 2.4 or 5 GHz? Or both? Can’t find the answer anywhere in the SMA documentation. Thanks. > > Kirk Herander > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jan 30 20:02:17 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 17:02:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid Message-ID: HI All, Well its the new year and Module level control is here. 690.12 (B)(2) Does anyone have any updates as to products that work with CC's that meet it? Thx jay Peltz Power From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Feb 1 11:27:48 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2019 11:27:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, We have a situation on a repair job (that I didn't install), where the charge controllers are not showing up on the SCP. There are 3 charge controllers, two 600 V and one 150 volt units. There is a ComBox and and SCP. One Schneider tech recommended that I unplug the SCP and plug a laptop directly into the ComBox..The manual shows a router being used. Can a laptop be plugged directly in to a ComBox? Will this be helpful in finding the missing CCs? Even with new Ethernet cables, the CCs don't show up. Thanks, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sandra.Herrera at schneider-electric.com Fri Feb 1 11:44:03 2019 From: Sandra.Herrera at schneider-electric.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2019 16:44:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Drake. In the Xanbus network, you have devices with power such as inverters, and other devices without power. You can not connect an SCP directly to an MPPT60, because both SCP and MPPT60 have no power, but if you have an inverter in the network, it should give sufficient power for the devices. There are several reasons why a device that is still fully functional but not show up on the network. This ranges from the minor CAT5 cable problem to maybe a damage communication card. Some may be solved with a simple factory reset, and other cases may require a replacement. However, without the full context of the conversation, I do not see how connecting ComBox or SCP will make any difference. Although, the ComBox as an AC power supply it will not power the Xanbus network, it is only to power the ComBox. As far as connecting ComBox directly to your laptop without a router, this is possible, but you need to change your network setting on the laptop. Sandra Sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: Friday, February 1, 2019 8:28 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ Hello Wrenches, We have a situation on a repair job (that I didn't install), where the charge controllers are not showing up on the SCP. There are 3 charge controllers, two 600 V and one 150 volt units. There is a ComBox and and SCP. One Schneider tech recommended that I unplug the SCP and plug a laptop directly into the ComBox..The manual shows a router being used. Can a laptop be plugged directly in to a ComBox? Will this be helpful in finding the missing CCs? Even with new Ethernet cables, the CCs don't show up. Thanks, Drake ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Feb 1 11:38:21 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2019 08:38:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Did you power down all of the equipment making sure the DC bus goes to zero vdc? I am not sure on the pc going straight in and unless the combox has been kept up to date with firmware I am doubting it. The port on combox says ethernet 10/100. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > > Hello Wrenches, > > We have a situation on a repair job (that I didn't install), where the > charge controllers are not showing up on the SCP. There are 3 charge > controllers, two 600 V and one 150 volt units. There is a ComBox and > and SCP. > > One Schneider tech recommended that I unplug the SCP and plug a laptop > directly into the ComBox..The manual shows a router being used. > > Can a laptop be plugged directly in to a ComBox? Will this be helpful > in finding the missing CCs? > > Even with new Ethernet cables, the CCs don't show up. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Feb 1 11:47:21 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2019 11:47:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005d01d4ba4d$ce2d7240$6a8856c0$@glbcc.com> The Combox can be directly connected via Ethernet, but it takes a bit of IT know-how. It is easier to take a cheap router with you and connect the Combox and laptop to the router, and let it assign IP addresses. I too am fighting a new install where the single MPPT 80-600 is partially visible via combox and internet. Support says to be sure to update all equipment to the latest version of firmware and double check all the Xanbus cables and terminators. This system is doing some magic battery charging – no voltage or production reported by the charge controller, but Insight and Combox show something putting Watts back into the batteries! Good luck!! -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: Friday, February 01, 2019 11:28 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC Hello Wrenches, We have a situation on a repair job (that I didn't install), where the charge controllers are not showing up on the SCP. There are 3 charge controllers, two 600 V and one 150 volt units. There is a ComBox and and SCP. One Schneider tech recommended that I unplug the SCP and plug a laptop directly into the ComBox..The manual shows a router being used. Can a laptop be plugged directly in to a ComBox? Will this be helpful in finding the missing CCs? Even with new Ethernet cables, the CCs don't show up. Thanks, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Feb 1 16:40:34 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2019 13:40:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sandra: I have frequent communications problems with XW xanbus devices. At one point I was told by Schneider tech support that all Cat5 leads need to be a minimum of 6 feet in length. Is this true? William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Sandra Herrera *Sent:* Friday, February 1, 2019 8:44 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC Hello Drake. In the Xanbus network, you have devices with power such as inverters, and other devices without power. You can not connect an SCP directly to an MPPT60, because both SCP and MPPT60 have no power, but if you have an inverter in the network, it should give sufficient power for the devices. There are several reasons why a device that is still fully functional but not show up on the network. This ranges from the minor CAT5 cable problem to maybe a damage communication card. Some may be solved with a simple factory reset, and other cases may require a replacement. However, without the full context of the conversation, I do not see how connecting ComBox or SCP will make any difference. Although, the ComBox as an AC power supply it will not power the Xanbus network, it is only to power the ComBox. As far as connecting ComBox directly to your laptop without a router, this is possible, but you need to change your network setting on the laptop. Sandra Sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org *Sent:* Friday, February 1, 2019 8:28 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ------------------------------ Hello Wrenches, We have a situation on a repair job (that I didn't install), where the charge controllers are not showing up on the SCP. There are 3 charge controllers, two 600 V and one 150 volt units. There is a ComBox and and SCP. One Schneider tech recommended that I unplug the SCP and plug a laptop directly into the ComBox..The manual shows a router being used. Can a laptop be plugged directly in to a ComBox? Will this be helpful in finding the missing CCs? Even with new Ethernet cables, the CCs don't show up. Thanks, Drake ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sandra.Herrera at schneider-electric.com Fri Feb 1 17:32:29 2019 From: Sandra.Herrera at schneider-electric.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2019 22:32:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William, I will need system specific information to make any comments on your reported communications issues. As far as the recommendations for 6 foot CAT5, that was done 5 to 7 years ago for a specific application, and it is still valid when working with large systems, where you are pushing the Xanbus network maximum. Sandra Sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Friday, February 1, 2019 1:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ Sandra: I have frequent communications problems with XW xanbus devices. At one point I was told by Schneider tech support that all Cat5 leads need to be a minimum of 6 feet in length. Is this true? William From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Herrera Sent: Friday, February 1, 2019 8:44 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC Hello Drake. In the Xanbus network, you have devices with power such as inverters, and other devices without power. You can not connect an SCP directly to an MPPT60, because both SCP and MPPT60 have no power, but if you have an inverter in the network, it should give sufficient power for the devices. There are several reasons why a device that is still fully functional but not show up on the network. This ranges from the minor CAT5 cable problem to maybe a damage communication card. Some may be solved with a simple factory reset, and other cases may require a replacement. However, without the full context of the conversation, I do not see how connecting ComBox or SCP will make any difference. Although, the ComBox as an AC power supply it will not power the Xanbus network, it is only to power the ComBox. As far as connecting ComBox directly to your laptop without a router, this is possible, but you need to change your network setting on the laptop. Sandra Sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: Friday, February 1, 2019 8:28 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ Hello Wrenches, We have a situation on a repair job (that I didn't install), where the charge controllers are not showing up on the SCP. There are 3 charge controllers, two 600 V and one 150 volt units. There is a ComBox and and SCP. One Schneider tech recommended that I unplug the SCP and plug a laptop directly into the ComBox..The manual shows a router being used. Can a laptop be plugged directly in to a ComBox? Will this be helpful in finding the missing CCs? Even with new Ethernet cables, the CCs don't show up. Thanks, Drake ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 21:23:11 2019 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2019 18:23:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And make sure that both ends of the Xanbus network are properly terminated. Brad On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 8:44 AM Sandra Herrera < Sandra.Herrera at schneider-electric.com> wrote: > Hello Drake. > > In the Xanbus network, you have devices with power such as inverters, and > other devices without power. > > You can not connect an SCP directly to an MPPT60, because both SCP and > MPPT60 have no power, but if you have an inverter in the network, it should > give sufficient power for the devices. > > There are several reasons why a device that is still fully functional but > not show up on the network. This ranges from the minor CAT5 cable problem > to maybe a damage communication card. Some may be solved with a simple > factory reset, and other cases may require a replacement. > > However, without the full context of the conversation, I do not see how > connecting ComBox or SCP will make any difference. Although, the ComBox as > an AC power supply it will not power the Xanbus network, it is only to > power the ComBox. > > As far as connecting ComBox directly to your laptop without a router, this > is possible, but you need to change your network setting on the laptop. > > Sandra > > Sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > *Sent:* Friday, February 1, 2019 8:28 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC > > > > [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] > ------------------------------ > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > We have a situation on a repair job (that I didn't install), where the > charge controllers are not showing up on the SCP. There are 3 charge > controllers, two 600 V and one 150 volt units. There is a ComBox and and > SCP. > > > > One Schneider tech recommended that I unplug the SCP and plug a laptop > directly into the ComBox..The manual shows a router being used. > > > > Can a laptop be plugged directly in to a ComBox? Will this be helpful in > finding the missing CCs? > > > > Even with new Ethernet cables, the CCs don't show up. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Drake > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Sat Feb 2 15:39:59 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 20:39:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, I'm interested in this too, but I don't have any good answers (I was hoping that someone else would have responded by now). I know that this doesn't answer the question... but my only comment is to use a pole mount whenever possible. Rapid shutdown only applies to systems on a building or where the PV system conductors penetrate beyond 3' into a building before reaching the PV system disconnect. For a pole mount, as long as your equipment is on the outside wall, you can easily get to the PV system disconnect within 3' of wire length from the building penetration so no rapid shutdown of any kind is required. The battery system is considered a separate system in the 2017 code and there is no requirement for rapid shutdown of any kind in that system. Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of jay Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 6:02 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid HI All, Well its the new year and Module level control is here. 690.12 (B)(2) Does anyone have any updates as to products that work with CC's that meet it? Thx jay Peltz Power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5056c4841d184b864da108d6873edd73%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636845101401678181&sdata=ncjKwCiy%2BQbo0lqP7srSc8G9CryOtNQPjfhAKitodfc%3D&reserved=0 List-Archive: https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5056c4841d184b864da108d6873edd73%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636845101401688186&sdata=%2FZtDovZYOzIZrFwiwKDR2XqoZ2eXWvor6guHCz59j0c%3D&reserved=0 List rules & etiquette: https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5056c4841d184b864da108d6873edd73%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636845101401688186&sdata=sAk7k9sjTPsWc3wrtceu%2FHzgH%2BN97FtdD2HHG55KU0E%3D&reserved=0 Check out or update participant bios: https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.members.re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5056c4841d184b864da108d6873edd73%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636845101401688186&sdata=H5sD9UsXdk2dIZsOTsQdQLRWWPXKO1joqt3GQqLOuIA%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Feb 2 15:47:36 2019 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 13:47:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A very common way around rapid shutdown for off-grid systems especially with ground or pole mounts is using a "power shed" for the BOS components.....if it is not inhabited / uninhabitable then rapid shutdown is not needed per NEC 2017. Dan Fink Former Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP PV Associate 970.672.4342 On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 1:40 PM Kienan Maxfield wrote: > Jay, > > I'm interested in this too, but I don't have any good answers (I was > hoping that someone else would have responded by now). I know that this > doesn't answer the question... but my only comment is to use a pole mount > whenever possible. Rapid shutdown only applies to systems on a building or > where the PV system conductors penetrate beyond 3' into a building before > reaching the PV system disconnect. For a pole mount, as long as your > equipment is on the outside wall, you can easily get to the PV system > disconnect within 3' of wire length from the building penetration so no > rapid shutdown of any kind is required. The battery system is considered a > separate system in the 2017 code and there is no requirement for rapid > shutdown of any kind in that system. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > > *Maxfield Solar* > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* > * (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) (801) 631-5584 (Cell) * > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of jay > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 30, 2019 6:02 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid > > HI All, > > Well its the new year and Module level control is here. 690.12 (B)(2) > > Does anyone have any updates as to products that work with CC's that meet > it? > > Thx > jay > > Peltz Power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5056c4841d184b864da108d6873edd73%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636845101401678181&sdata=ncjKwCiy%2BQbo0lqP7srSc8G9CryOtNQPjfhAKitodfc%3D&reserved=0 > > List-Archive: > https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5056c4841d184b864da108d6873edd73%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636845101401688186&sdata=%2FZtDovZYOzIZrFwiwKDR2XqoZ2eXWvor6guHCz59j0c%3D&reserved=0 > > List rules & etiquette: > > https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5056c4841d184b864da108d6873edd73%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636845101401688186&sdata=sAk7k9sjTPsWc3wrtceu%2FHzgH%2BN97FtdD2HHG55KU0E%3D&reserved=0 > > Check out or update participant bios: > > https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.members.re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5056c4841d184b864da108d6873edd73%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636845101401688186&sdata=H5sD9UsXdk2dIZsOTsQdQLRWWPXKO1joqt3GQqLOuIA%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at willpowerelect.com Sat Feb 2 16:24:35 2019 From: bruce at willpowerelect.com (bruce at willpowerelect.com) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2019 14:24:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX slow transfer from gen Message-ID: <20190202142435.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.107d78dedc.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Feb 2 17:08:16 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 16:08:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Midnight solar has an RSS and Tigo has an RS4 they all need to have the rapid shut down sw turn off the inverter to stop the DC current then the module level Switches can shut off the module On Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 12:58 AM jay HI All, > > Well its the new year and Module level control is here. 690.12 (B)(2) > > Does anyone have any updates as to products that work with CC's that meet > it? > > Thx > jay > > Peltz Power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Feb 2 16:36:10 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 13:36:10 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX slow transfer from gen In-Reply-To: <20190202142435.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.107d78dedc.wbe@email0 2.godaddy.com> References: <20190202142435.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.107d78dedc.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <4a8defecd30a3a05a94a7946118d4ac1.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Single inverter or master slave? Is there an AGS? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 Dave bruce at willpowerelect.comDave >
Fellow Head Scratchers and > Gurus,

I have replaced VFX Control and AC boards > on an older FP2 system in order to have current firmwares compatible with > new Mate3s and FM100s. I am having frequent transfer delays/ outages of 30 > - 60 seconds from ags Aux off gen stop until inverter transfers and > produces. I have double checked all settings and compared to several other > similar systems settings. Any ideas?  >

Thanks!

style="font-family: verdana, geneva;" mce_style="font-family: verdana, > geneva;">Bruce > Fiero
mce_style="font-family: verdana, geneva;"> style="color: #355a8c;" mce_style="color: > #355a8c;">
style="font-family: "times new roman", times; color: #425f9e;" > mce_style="font-family: "times new roman", times; color: > #425f9e;">CCB > 191852
Oregon Electrical Contractor > C681
NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) > Installer 031409-38
style="font-family: verdana, geneva;" mce_style="font-family: verdana, > geneva;"> style="font-family: "times new roman", times;" > mce_style="font-family: "times new roman", times;">DUNS > 191470363 
style="font-family: "times new roman", times; color: #425f9e;" > mce_style="font-family: "times new roman", times; color: > #425f9e;">Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) > Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs >  
mce_style="font-family: verdana, geneva;"> mce_style="font-family: "times new roman", times; color: > #425f9e;">
 

 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Feb 2 17:00:37 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 14:00:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Dan and Kienan, Yea I understand some of the work arounds, but its not always possible to work around things. At some point its going to be in a building or on the roof etc. So sounds like from the crickets that things are not quite ready yet. Better slow and ready than fast and not. thx jay > On Feb 2, 2019, at 12:47 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > A very common way around rapid shutdown for off-grid systems especially with ground or pole mounts is using a "power shed" for the BOS components.....if it is not inhabited / uninhabitable then rapid shutdown is not needed per NEC 2017. > > Dan Fink > Former Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > NABCEP PV Associate > > 970.672.4342 <> > > > > On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 1:40 PM Kienan Maxfield > wrote: > Jay, > > I'm interested in this too, but I don't have any good answers (I was hoping that someone else would have responded by now). I know that this doesn't answer the question... but my only comment is to use a pole mount whenever possible. Rapid shutdown only applies to systems on a building or where the PV system conductors penetrate beyond 3' into a building before reaching the PV system disconnect. For a pole mount, as long as your equipment is on the outside wall, you can easily get to the PV system disconnect within 3' of wire length from the building penetration so no rapid shutdown of any kind is required. The battery system is considered a separate system in the 2017 code and there is no requirement for rapid shutdown of any kind in that system. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > > Maxfield Solar > maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com > (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) > (801) 631-5584 (Cell) > From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of jay > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 6:02 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid > > HI All, > > Well its the new year and Module level control is here. 690.12 (B)(2) > > Does anyone have any updates as to products that work with CC's that meet it? > > Thx > jay > > Peltz Power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5056c4841d184b864da108d6873edd73%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636845101401678181&sdata=ncjKwCiy%2BQbo0lqP7srSc8G9CryOtNQPjfhAKitodfc%3D&reserved=0 > > List-Archive: https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5056c4841d184b864da108d6873edd73%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636845101401688186&sdata=%2FZtDovZYOzIZrFwiwKDR2XqoZ2eXWvor6guHCz59j0c%3D&reserved=0 > > List rules & etiquette: > https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5056c4841d184b864da108d6873edd73%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636845101401688186&sdata=sAk7k9sjTPsWc3wrtceu%2FHzgH%2BN97FtdD2HHG55KU0E%3D&reserved=0 > > Check out or update participant bios: > https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.members.re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5056c4841d184b864da108d6873edd73%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636845101401688186&sdata=H5sD9UsXdk2dIZsOTsQdQLRWWPXKO1joqt3GQqLOuIA%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Feb 2 19:21:16 2019 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 17:21:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay; Off grid we have worked through some strange requirements over the last few years, and in most it had a lot had to do with how electrical inspectors interpreted NEC....they are as puzzled as we are. There were AHJs calling for giant remote-trip DC breakers on battery banks to comply with rapid shutdown (I think that fire went out when it was pointed out that meant all backup generators needed to be integrated into rapid shutdown too, a no-go) And AHJs who said that because the conduit from a ground mount array went 4 feet up the outside of a building to the first disconnect before penetrating the building, that meant the PV array was "on the building." And local solar companies frantically pounding in 250.47(D) aux grounding electrodes below every PV array, even though that's a recipe for disaster. I'd boil it down to keeping good lines of communication open between PV installers and the AHJs and being able to discuss frankly what exactly the problem some of these more mysterious code items are trying to solve. Dan Fink Former Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP PV Associate 970.672.4342 On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 4:33 PM jay wrote: > HI Dan and Kienan, > > Yea I understand some of the work arounds, but its not always possible to > work around things. At some point its going to be in a building or on the > roof etc. > > So sounds like from the crickets that things are not quite ready yet. > Better slow and ready than fast and not. > > thx > jay > > > > On Feb 2, 2019, at 12:47 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > A very common way around rapid shutdown for off-grid systems especially > with ground or pole mounts is using a "power shed" for the BOS > components.....if it is not inhabited / uninhabitable then rapid shutdown > is not needed per NEC 2017. > > Dan Fink > Former Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > NABCEP PV Associate > > 970.672.4342 > > > > > On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 1:40 PM Kienan Maxfield > wrote: > >> Jay, >> >> I'm interested in this too, but I don't have any good answers (I was >> hoping that someone else would have responded by now). I know that this >> doesn't answer the question... but my only comment is to use a pole mount >> whenever possible. Rapid shutdown only applies to systems on a building or >> where the PV system conductors penetrate beyond 3' into a building before >> reaching the PV system disconnect. For a pole mount, as long as your >> equipment is on the outside wall, you can easily get to the PV system >> disconnect within 3' of wire length from the building penetration so no >> rapid shutdown of any kind is required. The battery system is considered a >> separate system in the 2017 code and there is no requirement for rapid >> shutdown of any kind in that system. >> >> Thanks, >> Kienan >> >> >> *Maxfield Solar* >> *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* >> * (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) (801) 631-5584 (Cell) * >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of jay >> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 30, 2019 6:02 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid >> >> HI All, >> >> Well its the new year and Module level control is here. 690.12 (B)(2) >> >> Does anyone have any updates as to products that work with CC's that meet >> it? >> >> Thx >> jay >> >> Peltz Power >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5056c4841d184b864da108d6873edd73%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636845101401678181&sdata=ncjKwCiy%2BQbo0lqP7srSc8G9CryOtNQPjfhAKitodfc%3D&reserved=0 >> >> List-Archive: >> https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5056c4841d184b864da108d6873edd73%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636845101401688186&sdata=%2FZtDovZYOzIZrFwiwKDR2XqoZ2eXWvor6guHCz59j0c%3D&reserved=0 >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5056c4841d184b864da108d6873edd73%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636845101401688186&sdata=sAk7k9sjTPsWc3wrtceu%2FHzgH%2BN97FtdD2HHG55KU0E%3D&reserved=0 >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.members.re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5056c4841d184b864da108d6873edd73%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636845101401688186&sdata=H5sD9UsXdk2dIZsOTsQdQLRWWPXKO1joqt3GQqLOuIA%3D&reserved=0 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at willpowerelect.com Sat Feb 2 22:44:53 2019 From: bruce at willpowerelect.com (bruce at willpowerelect.com) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2019 20:44:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX slow transfer from gen Message-ID: <20190202204453.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.86fe38466a.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Sun Feb 3 02:18:57 2019 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 07:18:57 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495235e81ddc421da610fa352268b4bc@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello Jay and All Concerning module level shutdown. Tigo has conducted testing and has validated the FM60/80 charge controllers with their TS4 Module Platform Imo's FireRaptor has been tested by OutBack and can be used successfully in combination with FM60/80/100 the ICS Plus and the Skybox 5048 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 5:02 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ HI All, Well its the new year and Module level control is here. 690.12 (B)(2) Does anyone have any updates as to products that work with CC's that meet it? Thx jay Peltz Power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From bruce at willpowerelect.com Sun Feb 3 15:15:00 2019 From: bruce at willpowerelect.com (bruce at willpowerelect.com) Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2019 13:15:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Legacy modules wanted Message-ID: <20190203131500.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.e1e3d65ffa.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Feb 4 08:48:47 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel at entech-engineering.com) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 08:48:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid In-Reply-To: <495235e81ddc421da610fa352268b4bc@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> References: <495235e81ddc421da610fa352268b4bc@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: Lones, Does Outback have any schematic details on the installation of these devices with the Outback devices? Chris Warfel On 2019-02-03 02:18, Lones Tuss wrote: > Hello Jay and All > Concerning module level shutdown. > Tigo has conducted testing and has validated the FM60/80 charge controllers with their TS4 Module Platform > > Imo's FireRaptor has been tested by OutBack and can be used successfully in combination with FM60/80/100 the ICS Plus and the Skybox 5048 > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 5:02 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid > > ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ > > HI All, > > Well its the new year and Module level control is here. 690.12 (B)(2) > > Does anyone have any updates as to products that work with CC's that meet it? > > Thx > jay > > Peltz Power > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Tue Feb 5 12:45:35 2019 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 17:45:35 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid In-Reply-To: References: <495235e81ddc421da610fa352268b4bc@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: <709210d090fe41f8b2c67eb002f7f11c@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello All Below is a link to an OutBack webinar concerning module level shutdown. Date: Wednesday January 9, 2019 Time: 10:00 AM PST – 10:30 AM PST http://www.outbackpower.com/resources/obt-training/webinars Class Description: As of January 1, 2019, 27 states have adopted the 2017 edition of the NEC and with it Article 690.12(B)(2) addresses PV array safety, for firefighters. California’s adoption starts in 2020. The biggest change in the 2017 edition is the requirement for inside the array rapid shut down. For many installers, the most effective way to meet the requirement is with a module-level device to limit voltage of conductors to less than 80V, 30 seconds after shutdown initiation. In this webinar, we will discuss solutions that meet this requirement that work with OutBack Power products. From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 5:49 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Lones Tuss Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid Lones, Does Outback have any schematic details on the installation of these devices with the Outback devices? Chris Warfel On 2019-02-03 02:18, Lones Tuss wrote: Hello Jay and All Concerning module level shutdown. Tigo has conducted testing and has validated the FM60/80 charge controllers with their TS4 Module Platform Imo's FireRaptor has been tested by OutBack and can be used successfully in combination with FM60/80/100 the ICS Plus and the Skybox 5048 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of jay Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 5:02 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ HI All, Well its the new year and Module level control is here. 690.12 (B)(2) Does anyone have any updates as to products that work with CC's that meet it? Thx jay Peltz Power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Tue Feb 5 13:14:12 2019 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 18:14:12 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid In-Reply-To: <709210d090fe41f8b2c67eb002f7f11c@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> References: <495235e81ddc421da610fa352268b4bc@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <709210d090fe41f8b2c67eb002f7f11c@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: <4a9617bb7b174243b6822f7ba7057496@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello World I apologize the link below is a dead link. I will search out the proper link and post it as soon as I am able. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Lones Tuss Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 9:46 AM To: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid Hello All Below is a link to an OutBack webinar concerning module level shutdown. Date: Wednesday January 9, 2019 Time: 10:00 AM PST – 10:30 AM PST http://www.outbackpower.com/resources/obt-training/webinars Class Description: As of January 1, 2019, 27 states have adopted the 2017 edition of the NEC and with it Article 690.12(B)(2) addresses PV array safety, for firefighters. California’s adoption starts in 2020. The biggest change in the 2017 edition is the requirement for inside the array rapid shut down. For many installers, the most effective way to meet the requirement is with a module-level device to limit voltage of conductors to less than 80V, 30 seconds after shutdown initiation. In this webinar, we will discuss solutions that meet this requirement that work with OutBack Power products. From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com > Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 5:49 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Lones Tuss > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid Lones, Does Outback have any schematic details on the installation of these devices with the Outback devices? Chris Warfel On 2019-02-03 02:18, Lones Tuss wrote: Hello Jay and All Concerning module level shutdown. Tigo has conducted testing and has validated the FM60/80 charge controllers with their TS4 Module Platform Imo's FireRaptor has been tested by OutBack and can be used successfully in combination with FM60/80/100 the ICS Plus and the Skybox 5048 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of jay Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 5:02 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ HI All, Well its the new year and Module level control is here. 690.12 (B)(2) Does anyone have any updates as to products that work with CC's that meet it? Thx jay Peltz Power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Tue Feb 5 13:39:07 2019 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 18:39:07 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid In-Reply-To: References: <495235e81ddc421da610fa352268b4bc@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: <08d71a47c4f444779e4f5f745d299ff8@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello Below is a link to the OutBack rapid shutdown webinar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0j9u-u7PRU& Sorry for my earlier misdirection. From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 5:49 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Lones Tuss Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid Lones, Does Outback have any schematic details on the installation of these devices with the Outback devices? Chris Warfel On 2019-02-03 02:18, Lones Tuss wrote: Hello Jay and All Concerning module level shutdown. Tigo has conducted testing and has validated the FM60/80 charge controllers with their TS4 Module Platform Imo's FireRaptor has been tested by OutBack and can be used successfully in combination with FM60/80/100 the ICS Plus and the Skybox 5048 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of jay Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 5:02 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ HI All, Well its the new year and Module level control is here. 690.12 (B)(2) Does anyone have any updates as to products that work with CC's that meet it? Thx jay Peltz Power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Feb 5 17:52:29 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2019 17:52:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Boards Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, It is my understanding that old Outback VFX inverters can not have only one board replaced, but need to have three changed. WE HAVE AN INVERTER THAT IS FROM AROUND 2005 (SERIAL NUMBER VFX 008968). Can one board be replaced on this unit? Thanks, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Feb 5 17:54:05 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel at entech-engineering.com) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2019 17:54:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have replaced one board on two different inverters in the past 10 years. Chris On 2019-02-05 17:52, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > It is my understanding that old Outback VFX inverters can not have only one board replaced, but need to have three changed. > > We have an inverter that is from around 2005 (serial number VFX 008968). Can one board be replaced on this unit? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Wed Feb 6 10:55:34 2019 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 15:55:34 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f7e7701217d41a9b42dbd5fb6087ffe@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello Drake Yes replacing a single board in an FX is possible. In the case of a lightning strike it may be advisable to replace all three boards as damage may not be visible. Take Care Sir From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 2:52 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Boards ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ Hello Wrenches, It is my understanding that old Outback VFX inverters can not have only one board replaced, but need to have three changed. We have an inverter that is from around 2005 (serial number VFX 008968). Can one board be replaced on this unit? Thanks, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Feb 6 14:18:47 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 11:18:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need UL Listed direct DC pump Message-ID: <28114fc238d217ca14f97cfad747d51a@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I have been asked to consult on an agricultural water pumping project. The project is funded in part by NRCS. There apparently is a requirement to provide a lift pump that is UL listed. The lift is about 220 feet and they need to pump 22 GPM. The pump can be submersible or surface. Sunpump is not UL listed, nor is Grundfos. Neither Dankoff nor Sunrotor can meet the GPM at the lift height. Does anyone know of a pump brand that might do what I need? Thanks, William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 17:08:54 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 14:08:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need UL Listed direct DC pump In-Reply-To: <28114fc238d217ca14f97cfad747d51a@mail.gmail.com> References: <28114fc238d217ca14f97cfad747d51a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <24BE4F2D-A612-4CED-AA38-F724736BA907@gmail.com> HI William, You might look at http://www.franklinwater.com/products/packaged-systems/solar-products/subdrive-solarpak-075-3hp/ UL listed. Jay peltz power > On Feb 6, 2019, at 11:18 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I have been asked to consult on an agricultural water pumping project. The project is funded in part by NRCS. There apparently is a requirement to provide a lift pump that is UL listed. The lift is about 220 feet and they need to pump 22 GPM. The pump can be submersible or surface. > > Sunpump is not UL listed, nor is Grundfos. Neither Dankoff nor Sunrotor can meet the GPM at the lift height. > > Does anyone know of a pump brand that might do what I need? > > Thanks, > > William Miller > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 20:04:19 2019 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 17:04:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need UL Listed direct DC pump In-Reply-To: <28114fc238d217ca14f97cfad747d51a@mail.gmail.com> References: <28114fc238d217ca14f97cfad747d51a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Try Franklin solar pumps http://solar.franklin-electric.com/products/subdrive/subdrive-solarpak/ Brad On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 1:26 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I have been asked to consult on an agricultural water pumping project. > The project is funded in part by NRCS. There apparently is a requirement > to provide a lift pump that is UL listed. The lift is about 220 feet and > they need to pump 22 GPM. The pump can be submersible or surface. > > > > Sunpump is not UL listed, nor is Grundfos. Neither Dankoff nor Sunrotor > can meet the GPM at the lift height. > > > > Does anyone know of a pump brand that might do what I need? > > > > Thanks, > > > > William Miller > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Feb 6 19:53:20 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 16:53:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5a763a1e787a2edb2b5da02ff7e1a4da@mail.gmail.com> Sandra: The system is a GTBB installation. The AGS is the only component I am aware of that is losing communications. I don’t know why it is losing communications. I don’t know if it is a Xanbus problem (or even what a Xanbus is), if it is an AGS problem or whatever. I was hoping you could provide some insight on why it might be losing communications. This might include any known problems, troubleshooting tips and maybe a comment on the assertion from Schneider tech support as to why we needed CAT5 cables in excess of 6 feet. Please feel free to communicate freely on the subject. Thanks. William *From:* Sandra Herrera [mailto:Sandra.Herrera at schneider-electric.com] *Sent:* Monday, February 4, 2019 6:42 AM *To:* william at millersolar.com *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC William, What is the application (Off-grid, Grid-Tie)? Other than AGS loosing communications, is there any other device with communication problems? If this is only on the AGS, how do you know that it is related to communication on Xanbus? Sandra Herrera Sales Application Engineer Solar Business Schneider Electric M 425-210-0163 E sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com Seattle, Washington United States [image: http://www.schneider-electric.com/b2b/en/solutions/for-business/smart-cities/launch-your-project/index.jsp#xtor=CS4-105-[Print]-[Event]-[LIO]-[Hong_Kong]] *Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail [image: Blog] [image: Blog] [image: Blog] [image: Blog] [image: Blog] [image: Blog] [image: Blog] *From:* William Miller [mailto:william at millersolar.com] *Sent:* Friday, February 1, 2019 2:52 PM *To:* Sandra Herrera *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ------------------------------ Sandra: Thank you for the speedy reply. Here are the components for just one problematic system: 3 XW 6048 inverter, model number 865-1000. Master serial number is 000011DFBFOB. 2 XW-MPPT60-150 charge controllers 1 SCP 1 AGS 2 terminators on the ends of data bus. The equipment is circa 2009. The case number is Case 19410834 and I spoke with Chantille on 6/4/15. We replaced all of the network cables and we still have problems. I suspect some of the new cables may be green in color and I now understand that brand O cables may not meet data industry specs. Before I replace them again, I want to know if I need 6’ cables or any other advice you may offer. Again the AGS is frequently losing communications with the system. What else should I check? Don’t know the firmware version. I have a dongle. William *From:* Sandra Herrera [mailto:Sandra.Herrera at schneider-electric.com] *Sent:* Friday, February 1, 2019 2:32 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC William, I will need system specific information to make any comments on your reported communications issues. As far as the recommendations for 6 foot CAT5, that was done 5 to 7 years ago for a specific application, and it is still valid when working with large systems, where you are pushing the Xanbus network maximum. Sandra Sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *William Miller *Sent:* Friday, February 1, 2019 1:41 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ------------------------------ Sandra: I have frequent communications problems with XW xanbus devices. At one point I was told by Schneider tech support that all Cat5 leads need to be a minimum of 6 feet in length. Is this true? William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Sandra Herrera *Sent:* Friday, February 1, 2019 8:44 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC Hello Drake. In the Xanbus network, you have devices with power such as inverters, and other devices without power. You can not connect an SCP directly to an MPPT60, because both SCP and MPPT60 have no power, but if you have an inverter in the network, it should give sufficient power for the devices. There are several reasons why a device that is still fully functional but not show up on the network. This ranges from the minor CAT5 cable problem to maybe a damage communication card. Some may be solved with a simple factory reset, and other cases may require a replacement. However, without the full context of the conversation, I do not see how connecting ComBox or SCP will make any difference. Although, the ComBox as an AC power supply it will not power the Xanbus network, it is only to power the ComBox. As far as connecting ComBox directly to your laptop without a router, this is possible, but you need to change your network setting on the laptop. Sandra Sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org *Sent:* Friday, February 1, 2019 8:28 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ------------------------------ Hello Wrenches, We have a situation on a repair job (that I didn't install), where the charge controllers are not showing up on the SCP. There are 3 charge controllers, two 600 V and one 150 volt units. There is a ComBox and and SCP. One Schneider tech recommended that I unplug the SCP and plug a laptop directly into the ComBox..The manual shows a router being used. Can a laptop be plugged directly in to a ComBox? Will this be helpful in finding the missing CCs? Even with new Ethernet cables, the CCs don't show up. Thanks, Drake ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26631 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image008.png Type: image/png Size: 1713 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Feb 6 19:57:09 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 16:57:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW mystery battery settings Message-ID: <63187463bb0da2c1c699fc213e4aa9ee@mail.gmail.com> Wrenches: One of the “features” of the XW inverter is the method with which battery programming is accomplished. Unless one sets up a custom battery setting scheme, you are stuck with the generic options: Flooded, AGM, etc. I need to have a better understanding of the voltage levels at which my batteries are charging. I perused the manual and cannot find what voltages apply to any of the generic battery types. Do any of you know what these voltage levels are? Thanks in advance, William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 23:39:02 2019 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 23:39:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Boards In-Reply-To: <2f7e7701217d41a9b42dbd5fb6087ffe@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> References: <2f7e7701217d41a9b42dbd5fb6087ffe@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: <73A7C7E7-38F3-44D2-B2E5-9F6DF11275E1@gmail.com> I have often replaced single boards. Usually the control board but sometimes the AC board or both. If I remember right, the AC board is common on all, the control board is different by DC voltage and whether grid tie or off grid and the FET board is DC voltage specific. Not including European and mobile units. This is why I have stayed with Outback. Field repairable. About an hour to take it off the wall, open it up, switch boards, close it up and reattach to the FlexWare or e-panel. I’ve done dozens over the years. John Blittersdorf Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 6, 2019, at 10:55 AM, Lones Tuss wrote: > > Hello Drake > Yes replacing a single board in an FX is possible. In the case of a lightning strike it may be advisable to replace all three boards as damage may not be visible. > Take Care Sir > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 2:52 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Boards > > ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** > Hello Wrenches, > > It is my understanding that old Outback VFX inverters can not have only one board replaced, but need to have three changed. > > We have an inverter that is from around 2005 (serial number VFX 008968). Can one board be replaced on this unit? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Feb 6 23:43:39 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 21:43:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Boards In-Reply-To: <73A7C7E7-38F3-44D2-B2E5-9F6DF11275E1@gmail.com> References: <2f7e7701217d41a9b42dbd5fb6087ffe@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <73A7C7E7-38F3-44D2-B2E5-9F6DF11275E1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0ae368ed-bf1e-e904-6213-56d2785ca195@solarray.com> I usually replace the control board and AC board at the same time, and the fan as well.  I've never had to replace a FET board, but I've had to return for the fan, or AC board when I only did the control board.  Control board seems the most sensitive to surges, while the AC board relays can burn, and of course fans only have so many spins in them. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/6/19 9:39 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > I have often replaced single boards. Usually the control board but > sometimes the AC board or both.  If I remember right, the AC board is > common on all, the control board is different by DC voltage and > whether grid tie or off grid and the FET board is DC voltage specific. > Not including European and mobile units.  This is why I have stayed > with Outback.  Field repairable.  About an hour to take it off the > wall, open it up, switch boards, close it up and reattach to the > FlexWare or e-panel.  I’ve done dozens over the years. > > John Blittersdorf > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 6, 2019, at 10:55 AM, Lones Tuss > wrote: > >> Hello Drake >> >> Yes replacing a single board in an FX is possible. In the case of a >> lightning strike it may be advisable to replace all three boards as >> damage may not be visible. >> >> Take Care Sir >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches > > *On Behalf Of >> *drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 5, 2019 2:52 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches > > >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Outback Boards >> >> *** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, >> links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. *** >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> It is my understanding that old Outback VFX inverters can not have >> only one board replaced, but need to have three changed. >> >> We have an inverter that is from around 2005 (serial number**VFX >> 008968).Can one board be replaced on this unit? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Feb 7 06:59:14 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 06:59:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Boards In-Reply-To: <73A7C7E7-38F3-44D2-B2E5-9F6DF11275E1@gmail.com> References: <2f7e7701217d41a9b42dbd5fb6087ffe@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <73A7C7E7-38F3-44D2-B2E5-9F6DF11275E1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <231BB3BC-1AEE-4DB6-9896-AC2E0C585061@swnl.net> Kris Stone has worked for OB and is now on his own repairing boards. When I’m in there, replacing the fans is a no brainer. I will usually replace all the boards as most of my installs are off grid. Kris can “swap”/repair the boards IF they are repairable. stkrizzi at yahoo.com 425-233-0731 I do have boards if you need one. T > On Feb 6, 2019, at 11:39 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > > I have often replaced single boards. Usually the control board but sometimes the AC board or both. If I remember right, the AC board is common on all, the control board is different by DC voltage and whether grid tie or off grid and the FET board is DC voltage specific. Not including European and mobile units. This is why I have stayed with Outback. Field repairable. About an hour to take it off the wall, open it up, switch boards, close it up and reattach to the FlexWare or e-panel. I’ve done dozens over the years. > > John Blittersdorf > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 6, 2019, at 10:55 AM, Lones Tuss > wrote: > >> Hello Drake >> Yes replacing a single board in an FX is possible. In the case of a lightning strike it may be advisable to replace all three boards as damage may not be visible. >> Take Care Sir >> >> From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >> Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 2:52 PM >> To: RE-wrenches > >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Boards >> >> ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> It is my understanding that old Outback VFX inverters can not have only one board replaced, but need to have three changed. >> >> We have an inverter that is from around 2005 (serial number VFX 008968). Can one board be replaced on this unit? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Feb 7 09:06:29 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 09:06:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Curved solar mounting Message-ID: Hi all, I'm looking for some ideas for attaching modules to a curved carport system. I attached a concept drawing. I'm pretty dead-set on through bolting to the frames, but bottom clips would probably work if using an off-the-shelf rail system. Any products or picture you can supply would be very helpful. The uprights pictured are already determined. It's a 20' radius curve. I'm assuming it will be steel tube bent to that radius. The total length will be much longer than what is pictured. The general contractor is willing to entertain any welded or bolted solution for the structure. Thanks! Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2019-02-07 at 9.00.14 AM.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 66604 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Sandra.Herrera at schneider-electric.com Thu Feb 7 09:11:10 2019 From: Sandra.Herrera at schneider-electric.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 14:11:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW mystery battery settings In-Reply-To: <63187463bb0da2c1c699fc213e4aa9ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <63187463bb0da2c1c699fc213e4aa9ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, The information is on the owners guide under default settings and charge settings. Here is a link to a recorded webinar I have posted on YouTube that explains the setting as wells as how the inverter will use them. https://youtu.be/PszWacaZF5E Also a link to the XW+ manual: https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/conext-xw-na-solar-inverter/ Sandra Herrera From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2019 4:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW mystery battery settings [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ Wrenches: ?? One of the ???features??? of the XW inverter is the method with which battery programming is accomplished.?? Unless one sets up a custom battery setting scheme, you are stuck with the generic options:?? Flooded, AGM, etc.?? I need to have a better understanding of the voltage levels at which my batteries are charging. I perused the manual and cannot find what voltages apply to any of the generic battery types.?? Do any of you know what these voltage levels are? ?? Thanks in advance, ?? William Miller ?? ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Feb 7 09:54:31 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 06:54:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Curved solar mounting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason - We've used Unirac SunFrame for similar applications. I'm not certain that the shared rail can accommodate the slight different in angle between module rows due to the curve, but it might be worth checking out if you haven't already: https://unirac.com/sunframe/ August On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 6:06 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm looking for some ideas for attaching modules to a curved carport > system. I attached a concept drawing. I'm pretty dead-set on through > bolting to the frames, but bottom clips would probably work if using an > off-the-shelf rail system. Any products or picture you can supply would be > very helpful. > > The uprights pictured are already determined. It's a 20' radius curve. I'm > assuming it will be steel tube bent to that radius. The total length will > be much longer than what is pictured. The general contractor is willing to > entertain any welded or bolted solution for the structure. > > Thanks! > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Thu Feb 7 10:05:15 2019 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 10:05:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Curved solar mounting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005601d4bef6$88334280$9899c780$@mindspring.com> Jason Last year we installed a system on a quonset hut structure. Used a clamp from S-5 ( Protea bracket I believe ) and Iron ridge x-100 rails. Between the brackets, self-tapping screws from Tringle and the rail it was amazingly strong. peter From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 9:06 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Curved solar mounting Hi all, I'm looking for some ideas for attaching modules to a curved carport system. I attached a concept drawing. I'm pretty dead-set on through bolting to the frames, but bottom clips would probably work if using an off-the-shelf rail system. Any products or picture you can supply would be very helpful. The uprights pictured are already determined. It's a 20' radius curve. I'm assuming it will be steel tube bent to that radius. The total length will be much longer than what is pictured. The general contractor is willing to entertain any welded or bolted solution for the structure. Thanks! Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Thu Feb 7 20:12:28 2019 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 17:12:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Heliene PV Modules Message-ID: Does anyone have experience with Heliene modules? Are they a good USA made module? Thanks David Katz Backwoods Solar -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Feb 7 19:26:55 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 16:26:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC In-Reply-To: <5a763a1e787a2edb2b5da02ff7e1a4da@mail.gmail.com> References: <5a763a1e787a2edb2b5da02ff7e1a4da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At some point if you can't troubleshoot, you will need to replace the system, or go with something that you understand. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Sandra: > > > > The system is a GTBB installation. The AGS is the only component I am > aware of that is losing communications. > > > > I don’t know why it is losing communications. I don’t know if it is a > Xanbus problem (or even what a Xanbus is), if it is an AGS problem or > whatever. I was hoping you could provide some insight on why it might be > losing communications. This might include any known problems, > troubleshooting tips and maybe a comment on the assertion from Schneider > tech support as to why we needed CAT5 cables in excess of 6 feet. Please > feel free to communicate freely on the subject. > > > > Thanks. > > > > William > > > > > > > > *From:* Sandra Herrera [mailto:Sandra.Herrera at schneider-electric.com] > *Sent:* Monday, February 4, 2019 6:42 AM > *To:* william at millersolar.com > *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC > > > > William, > > > > What is the application (Off-grid, Grid-Tie)? > > > > Other than AGS loosing communications, is there any other device with > communication problems? > > If this is only on the AGS, how do you know that it is related to > communication on Xanbus? > > > > Sandra Herrera > Sales Application Engineer > Solar Business > Schneider Electric > > M 425-210-0163 > E sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com > > Seattle, Washington > United States > > > > [image: > http://www.schneider-electric.com/b2b/en/solutions/for-business/smart-cities/launch-your-project/index.jsp#xtor=CS4-105-[Print]-[Event]-[LIO]-[Hong_Kong]] > > > > > *Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > [image: Blog] [image: Blog] > [image: Blog] > [image: Blog] > [image: Blog] > [image: Blog] > [image: Blog] > > > > > > > *From:* William Miller [mailto:william at millersolar.com] > *Sent:* Friday, February 1, 2019 2:52 PM > *To:* Sandra Herrera > *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC > > > > [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] > ------------------------------ > > > > Sandra: > > > > Thank you for the speedy reply. Here are the components for just one > problematic system: > > > > 3 XW 6048 inverter, model number 865-1000. Master serial number is > 000011DFBFOB. > > 2 XW-MPPT60-150 charge controllers > > 1 SCP > > 1 AGS > > 2 terminators on the ends of data bus. > > > > The equipment is circa 2009. The case number is Case 19410834 and I spoke > with Chantille on 6/4/15. We replaced all of the network cables and we > still have problems. I suspect some of the new cables may be green in > color and I now understand that brand O cables may not meet data industry > specs. Before I replace them again, I want to know if I need 6’ cables > or > any other advice you may offer. > > > > Again the AGS is frequently losing communications with the system. What > else should I check? Don’t know the firmware version. I have a dongle. > > > > William > > > > *From:* Sandra Herrera [mailto:Sandra.Herrera at schneider-electric.com] > *Sent:* Friday, February 1, 2019 2:32 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC > > > > William, > > > > I will need system specific information to make any comments on your > reported communications issues. > > > > As far as the recommendations for 6 foot CAT5, that was done 5 to 7 years > ago for a specific application, and it is still valid when working with > large systems, where you are pushing the Xanbus network maximum. > > > > Sandra > > Sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Miller > *Sent:* Friday, February 1, 2019 1:41 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC > > > > [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] > ------------------------------ > > > > Sandra: > > > > I have frequent communications problems with XW xanbus devices. At one > point I was told by Schneider tech support that all Cat5 leads need to be > a > minimum of 6 feet in length. Is this true? > > > > William > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Sandra Herrera > *Sent:* Friday, February 1, 2019 8:44 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC > > > > Hello Drake. > > In the Xanbus network, you have devices with power such as inverters, and > other devices without power. > > You can not connect an SCP directly to an MPPT60, because both SCP and > MPPT60 have no power, but if you have an inverter in the network, it > should > give sufficient power for the devices. > > There are several reasons why a device that is still fully functional but > not show up on the network. This ranges from the minor CAT5 cable problem > to maybe a damage communication card. Some may be solved with a simple > factory reset, and other cases may require a replacement. > > However, without the full context of the conversation, I do not see how > connecting ComBox or SCP will make any difference. Although, the ComBox as > an AC power supply it will not power the Xanbus network, it is only to > power the ComBox. > > As far as connecting ComBox directly to your laptop without a router, this > is possible, but you need to change your network setting on the laptop. > > Sandra > > Sandra.herrera at schneider-electric.com > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > *Sent:* Friday, February 1, 2019 8:28 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] No Communication to XW CC > > > > [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] > ------------------------------ > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > We have a situation on a repair job (that I didn't install), where the > charge controllers are not showing up on the SCP. There are 3 charge > controllers, two 600 V and one 150 volt units. There is a ComBox and and > SCP. > > > > One Schneider tech recommended that I unplug the SCP and plug a laptop > directly into the ComBox..The manual shows a router being used. > > > > Can a laptop be plugged directly in to a ComBox? Will this be helpful in > finding the missing CCs? > > > > Even with new Ethernet cables, the CCs don't show up. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Drake > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Feb 8 09:36:58 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2019 09:36:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Curved solar mounting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think I'm going to get the spans I need in this high wind area with an off-the-shelf aluminum solar rail. I think the purlins will need to be steel. I'm thinking either Z-purlins or I-beams. I have to mount the modules in landscape. I guess what I'm really looking for is standard hardware that I can bolt to the purlins/beams and bolt or clip to the module frame. These will likely be AC modules, so I also need to consider wire management. Jason On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 9:54 AM August Goers wrote: > Hi Jason - We've used Unirac SunFrame for similar applications. I'm not > certain that the shared rail can accommodate the slight different in angle > between module rows due to the curve, but it might be worth checking out if > you haven't already: > > https://unirac.com/sunframe/ > > August > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 6:06 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I'm looking for some ideas for attaching modules to a curved carport >> system. I attached a concept drawing. I'm pretty dead-set on through >> bolting to the frames, but bottom clips would probably work if using an >> off-the-shelf rail system. Any products or picture you can supply would be >> very helpful. >> >> The uprights pictured are already determined. It's a 20' radius curve. >> I'm assuming it will be steel tube bent to that radius. The total length >> will be much longer than what is pictured. The general contractor is >> willing to entertain any welded or bolted solution for the structure. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Fri Feb 8 14:20:38 2019 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2019 19:20:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23f06289c98d4e7db1d1c56dcf42ca4c@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello Jay Well it seems that I can't leave well enough alone. Below are some links I have found to the Tigo and IMO products concerning module level shutdown. Both have been tested with OutBack products. I do not think Tigo or IMO have a presence on Wrenches and I know this is gaining importance. I hope this helps. Take Care All Tigo https://www.tigoenergy.com/about-tigo/certifications/rapid-shutdown-system-modules/ IMO Fireraptor is a module level shutdown system that is tested and works with OutBack gear. https://imorenewableenergy.com/fireraptor.html -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 5:02 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ HI All, Well its the new year and Module level control is here. 690.12 (B)(2) Does anyone have any updates as to products that work with CC's that meet it? Thx jay Peltz Power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From august at luminalt.com Fri Feb 8 18:11:56 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2019 15:11:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Curved solar mounting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some more ideas: If you want to go custom, you should be able to through-bolt to the bottom of the module frame with standard stainless hardware per the manufacturer instructions. Here is an example from SunPower's installation guide : "Frame Holes: Secure the module to the structure using the factory mounting holes. Four 1/4″ stainless steel bolts, with nuts, washers, and lock washers are recommended per module; tightened to a min. torque of 10 inlbs. Refer to Table 4 for the module dimensions and hole locations. This method has been certified by a third-party organization according to UL 1703. For frame hole mounting, modules must be secured using the holes located at 322mm from the short end of the module for 72 and 96 cell modules and 433mm from the end of the module for 128 cell modules. For carport installations the supporting structure has been pre-drilled. For 128 cell modules for carport assembly, modules must be secured using only the holes located 433mm from the ends of the module and hardware described above in Section 4.1, Item 5. See Figure 2 for carport assembly details." We typically spec out an EPDM pad or washer between the module, rail, and or sub rack system to avoid dissimilar metal corrosion unless the materials are all the same. For wire management, there are more and more clips available on the market designed to secure wiring without needing classic zip ties. Maybe your AC module manufacturer has accessories? When cable ties are needed, I always like using the Heyco Sunbundler . Just some thoughts, August On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 6:37 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I don't think I'm going to get the spans I need in this high wind area > with an off-the-shelf aluminum solar rail. I think the purlins will need to > be steel. I'm thinking either Z-purlins or I-beams. I have to mount the > modules in landscape. I guess what I'm really looking for is standard > hardware that I can bolt to the purlins/beams and bolt or clip to the > module frame. > > These will likely be AC modules, so I also need to consider wire > management. > > Jason > > > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 9:54 AM August Goers wrote: > >> Hi Jason - We've used Unirac SunFrame for similar applications. I'm not >> certain that the shared rail can accommodate the slight different in angle >> between module rows due to the curve, but it might be worth checking out if >> you haven't already: >> >> https://unirac.com/sunframe/ >> >> August >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 6:06 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm looking for some ideas for attaching modules to a curved carport >>> system. I attached a concept drawing. I'm pretty dead-set on through >>> bolting to the frames, but bottom clips would probably work if using an >>> off-the-shelf rail system. Any products or picture you can supply would be >>> very helpful. >>> >>> The uprights pictured are already determined. It's a 20' radius curve. >>> I'm assuming it will be steel tube bent to that radius. The total length >>> will be much longer than what is pictured. The general contractor is >>> willing to entertain any welded or bolted solution for the structure. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garrison.rie at gmail.com Sat Feb 9 01:14:20 2019 From: garrison.rie at gmail.com (Garrison) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 00:14:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Curved solar mounting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have you looked at the Lumos system? They are not cheap, but look nice, and would work well in this application. The rail has integrated wire management. https://lumossolar.com/ Sunny regards, Garrison Riegel Rethink Electric On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 8:06 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm looking for some ideas for attaching modules to a curved carport > system. I attached a concept drawing. I'm pretty dead-set on through > bolting to the frames, but bottom clips would probably work if using an > off-the-shelf rail system. Any products or picture you can supply would be > very helpful. > > The uprights pictured are already determined. It's a 20' radius curve. I'm > assuming it will be steel tube bent to that radius. The total length will > be much longer than what is pictured. The general contractor is willing to > entertain any welded or bolted solution for the structure. > > Thanks! > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Feb 9 08:40:37 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 08:40:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Curved solar mounting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They are gorgeous. We eliminated these from consideration for a few reasons, whether completely valid or not. 1. Concluded that an AC module is preferred for monitoring and safety reasons. 2. Relatively low energy density per dollar. 3. Serviceability. 10 years from now, what if one is broken or fails. Will suitable replacements of the same size and appearance likely be available? >From an architectural standpoint I do love the idea. Now that I see the mounting method, it would work well in this application. Thanks for the reminding me of this option. Jason On Sat, Feb 9, 2019 at 1:14 AM Garrison wrote: > Have you looked at the Lumos system? They are not cheap, but look nice, > and would work well in this application. The rail has integrated wire > management. > > https://lumossolar.com/ > > Sunny regards, > > Garrison Riegel > Rethink Electric > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 8:06 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I'm looking for some ideas for attaching modules to a curved carport >> system. I attached a concept drawing. I'm pretty dead-set on through >> bolting to the frames, but bottom clips would probably work if using an >> off-the-shelf rail system. Any products or picture you can supply would be >> very helpful. >> >> The uprights pictured are already determined. It's a 20' radius curve. >> I'm assuming it will be steel tube bent to that radius. The total length >> will be much longer than what is pictured. The general contractor is >> willing to entertain any welded or bolted solution for the structure. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Feb 9 02:34:53 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2019 23:34:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large loads, small service Message-ID: Colleagues: I have an interesting project. I am working for a family that lives part time in a planned community built some years ago. The HOA owns the 12 KV distribution and it is old and undersized. This client shares a 25 kVA transformer with a neighbor. This calculates out to 50 amps per home at 240 VAC. The client has more stuff to power than they have power. To make it possible to power their loads, I am imagining a pseudo off-grid installation. We have grid power, but precious little of it, so we have to stand-alone, at least to some degree. I am thinking that we can provide a battery inverter system that can be programmed to limit the draw from the grid. All the loads will be connected to the AC output of the inverter system. If the load increases over that programmed limit, a smart inverter system should be able to synchronize to the grid input and assist with inverted power (like gen support on the grid input). I believe the Radian inverters can do this. If occasionally the batteries get low, a generator can run intermittently and top off the batteries. There is an 8kW grid-tied system on site. This should be able to help power on-site loads or charge the batteries during day-light hours. I will specify a contactor to kill the GT feed if the grid goes out and the batteries are fully charged. We can add another 11 kW of GT solar. However, I am concerned that we might be over-feeding the transformer on sunny days. The neighbor has about 8 kW of GT solar. If you add all of the GT solar into this one 25 kVA transformer, you arrive at 27 kVA. This is too much. Our additional GT solar might be with a Solar Edge HD-Wave SE10000-US. This inverter has an external box that can monitor net back-feed and limit the output of the SE inverter to a programmed level. Anyway, this is a lot of detail that maybe you don’t need to know. My question is this: How would you design a system to take 12 kVA from a grid source and turn it in to 60, or more? Any input is appreciated. William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Feb 9 17:54:58 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 14:54:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large loads, small service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b8836a0463fe00d788bb9cb34224ece.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Hi William, I did something like this but smaller so I do know it is possible. Along with Outback I would look at the XW pro that is really made for a micro grid. Here is a link. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/conext-xw-pro-na-solar-inverter/ I am testing it here for Schneider and here is a few screen shots of the monitor Insight 2. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Colleagues: > > > > I have an interesting project. I am working for a family that lives part > time in a planned community built some years ago. The HOA owns the 12 KV > distribution and it is old and undersized. This client shares a 25 kVA > transformer with a neighbor. This calculates out to 50 amps per home at > 240 VAC. > > > > The client has more stuff to power than they have power. To make it > possible to power their loads, I am imagining a pseudo off-grid > installation. We have grid power, but precious little of it, so we have to > stand-alone, at least to some degree. > > > > I am thinking that we can provide a battery inverter system that can be > programmed to limit the draw from the grid. All the loads will be > connected to the AC output of the inverter system. If the load increases > over that programmed limit, a smart inverter system should be able to > synchronize to the grid input and assist with inverted power (like gen > support on the grid input). I believe the Radian inverters can do this. > > > > If occasionally the batteries get low, a generator can run intermittently > and top off the batteries. > > > > There is an 8kW grid-tied system on site. This should be able to help > power on-site loads or charge the batteries during day-light hours. I > will > specify a contactor to kill the GT feed if the grid goes out and the > batteries are fully charged. > > > > We can add another 11 kW of GT solar. However, I am concerned that we > might be over-feeding the transformer on sunny days. The neighbor has > about 8 kW of GT solar. If you add all of the GT solar into this one 25 > kVA transformer, you arrive at 27 kVA. This is too much. Our additional > GT solar might be with a Solar Edge HD-Wave SE10000-US. This inverter has > an external box that can monitor net back-feed and limit the output of the > SE inverter to a programmed level. > > > > Anyway, this is a lot of detail that maybe you don’t need to know. My > question is this: How would you design a system to take 12 kVA from a > grid > source and turn it in to 60, or more? > > > > Any input is appreciated. > > > > William Miller > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1a.PNG Type: image/png Size: 68740 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2.PNG Type: image/png Size: 58706 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3.PNG Type: image/png Size: 226619 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Feb 12 22:46:22 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 19:46:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar edge storeedge question Message-ID: Hi all Using a SE7600a US version with 1 LG battery. If I’ve got this correct, the inverter can do 3300 watts from the battery side but 5000 watts total. Does this mean that if there is enough solar, the solar will add with the battery to give you up to 5000 watts output on the backup side? Thanks in advance Jay Peltz power. From bbassett2 at gmail.com Wed Feb 13 10:40:19 2019 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 07:40:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar edge storeedge question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, The inverter will do 5kW to backup with 7.6kW surge. My understanding is that it will draw from the PV as a priority and then battery. The battery can do this power level also, though LG recommends keeping to 3.3kW most of the time for longer battery life. I'm not sure how much effect the higher power level would have, I doubt much unless it was continuous. Brad AEE Solar On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 8:44 PM Jay wrote: > > Hi all > > Using a SE7600a US version with 1 LG battery. > > If I’ve got this correct, the inverter can do 3300 watts from the battery > side but 5000 watts total. > > Does this mean that if there is enough solar, the solar will add with the > battery to give you up to 5000 watts output on the backup side? > > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Feb 13 11:41:47 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 08:41:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar edge storeedge question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7ba364ebcee6ffc2508f36a00fdfc9ed.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> LG will also log temp, current, voltage, Soc, and determine Sol. The Sol will be used along with other logged data for warranty. I would be careful with surges, it was the reason LG decided not to market their 48V line of RESU's in North America. Deep well pumps killed a few in Australia and Germany had surge/ overcurrent (too much solar) problems. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Jay, > > The inverter will do 5kW to backup with 7.6kW surge. My understanding is > that it will draw from the PV as a priority and then battery. The battery > can do this power level also, though LG recommends keeping to 3.3kW most > of > the time for longer battery life. I'm not sure how much effect the higher > power level would have, I doubt much unless it was continuous. > > Brad > AEE Solar > > On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 8:44 PM Jay wrote: > >> >> Hi all >> >> Using a SE7600a US version with 1 LG battery. >> >> If I’ve got this correct, the inverter can do 3300 watts from the >> battery >> side but 5000 watts total. >> >> Does this mean that if there is enough solar, the solar will add with >> the >> battery to give you up to 5000 watts output on the backup side? >> >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From william at millersolar.com Wed Feb 13 15:41:53 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 12:41:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Kiosk Message-ID: Friends: I am in need of providing a public “kiosk” to display the output of two SMA TL-22 inverters in a lobby. I believe I need a web connect box, a data card in each inverter and that the system works through Sunny Portal. I am reading up on the literature. Sometimes the literature does not include the whole picture. Does anyone have any experience with setting up a system like this? Any words of advice? Thanks in advance. William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Wed Feb 13 17:39:50 2019 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 15:39:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Kiosk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have a couple Sunny Portal kiosks out in the world. It's quite easy to set up, but the downside to it is how lackluster the information displayed looks on a screen. Especially considering how nice these kiosks look when using a Solaredge or Fronius inverter. Here are examples of what each manufacturer's "kiosk" display looks like: SMA: https://www.sunnyportal.com/Templates/PublicPage.aspx?page=0d53e0d8-e5ff-4ad8-8267-a3363b9485e9 Fronius: https://www.solarweb.com/PvSystems/PvSystem?pvSystemId=fc073f0c-ce57-4cbf-9678-a576013cd6a8 Solaredge: https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=0cd30edc-039b-48aa-9a3f-e3a295ce9d47 I have reached out to SMA inquiring whether they had any suggestions or whether that was something they were working on improving but I didn't really get anywhere in that discussion. - Sam -- OnSite Energy Bozeman, MT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Wed Feb 13 17:27:58 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 22:27:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Kiosk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William – Likely the easiest way to do this is to get a Speedwire module for each inverter (SWDM-US-10). You can daisy chain the two inverters together with Ethernet cable once the modules are installed, and one output cable will come to a router/hub. A windows based laptop/PC running the free Sunny Explorer software on the same local area network as the inverters can view the data locally. This may be enough information for what you envision. More info here: https://www.sma-america.com/products/monitoring-control/sunny-explorer.html If you have internet access from the router, you can also register the system on Sunny Portal. Depending on the “kiosk” setup, you can do several things. If no one can adjust the computer settings, you could just leave the display on the home screen of this plant on Sunny portal. Also, the System overview page (or Energy and Power page) has a hyperlink that you can then embed in another webpage, so you could construct a Kiosk page as desired and embed the link as a image element. This is a static image representation of the portal page when the request is sent, so you would want the page to re-load automatically at fixed intervals. Feel free to contact me for more info. Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html . From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 1:42 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Kiosk Friends: I am in need of providing a public “kiosk” to display the output of two SMA TL-22 inverters in a lobby. I believe I need a web connect box, a data card in each inverter and that the system works through Sunny Portal. I am reading up on the literature. Sometimes the literature does not include the whole picture. Does anyone have any experience with setting up a system like this? Any words of advice? Thanks in advance. William Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Wed Feb 13 19:11:44 2019 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:11:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Kiosk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Locus (now part of Also) has a pretty nice kiosk view , though you'd need to install a Locus meter. Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 3:40 PM Sam Haraldson wrote: > We have a couple Sunny Portal kiosks out in the world. It's quite easy to > set up, but the downside to it is how lackluster the information displayed > looks on a screen. Especially considering how nice these kiosks look when > using a Solaredge or Fronius inverter. Here are examples of what each > manufacturer's "kiosk" display looks like: > > SMA: > > https://www.sunnyportal.com/Templates/PublicPage.aspx?page=0d53e0d8-e5ff-4ad8-8267-a3363b9485e9 > > Fronius: > > https://www.solarweb.com/PvSystems/PvSystem?pvSystemId=fc073f0c-ce57-4cbf-9678-a576013cd6a8 > > Solaredge: > > https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=0cd30edc-039b-48aa-9a3f-e3a295ce9d47 > > I have reached out to SMA inquiring whether they had any suggestions or > whether that was something they were working on improving but I didn't > really get anywhere in that discussion. > > - Sam > > -- > OnSite Energy > Bozeman, MT > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Thu Feb 14 12:05:15 2019 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 10:05:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile Message-ID: Wrenches, I have encountered a corrugated metal seam profile that doesn't fit the standard S-5! Corrubracket we typically employ. I'm looking for alternate solutions if you will, please. The corrugation pattern is 1-1/4" from "ridge" top to "ridge" top and the depth of the "valley" is 1/4". A drawing is attached explaining this further. -- *Sam Haraldson*, Installation Manager OnSite Energy, Inc. NABCEP PV Pro #PV-042217-016714 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: east-roof-seam-profile.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 59741 bytes Desc: not available URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Thu Feb 14 12:17:17 2019 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 09:17:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <015601d4c489$23774650$6a65d2f0$@greenwired.com> Hey Sam, Would Ejot work for this scenario? They have a wide range of washers for that. https://ejot-usa.com/products/solar-fastening-systems/for-exposed-fastener-metal-roofs/storm-washer-selection-guide Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 F: 707-923-2077 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Sam Haraldson Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2019 9:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile Wrenches, I have encountered a corrugated metal seam profile that doesn't fit the standard S-5! Corrubracket we typically employ. I'm looking for alternate solutions if you will, please. The corrugation pattern is 1-1/4" from "ridge" top to "ridge" top and the depth of the "valley" is 1/4". A drawing is attached explaining this further. -- Sam Haraldson, Installation Manager OnSite Energy, Inc. NABCEP PV Pro #PV-042217-016714 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Feb 14 12:37:03 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 12:37:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have you looked at the Proteabracket? Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group On Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 12:05 PM Sam Haraldson Wrenches, > > I have encountered a corrugated metal seam profile that doesn't fit the > standard S-5! Corrubracket we typically employ. I'm looking for alternate > solutions if you will, please. The corrugation pattern is 1-1/4" from > "ridge" top to "ridge" top and the depth of the "valley" is 1/4". A > drawing is attached explaining this further. > > -- > *Sam Haraldson*, Installation Manager > > OnSite Energy, Inc. > NABCEP PV Pro #PV-042217-016714 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 14 12:21:39 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 09:21:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sam: We have been impressed with the EJOT product line. We used a set recently on a sine waved shape wall to mount a backboard. We try to penetrate on the peaks of the corrugations. There are EJOTs for wood structures and for metal structures. You can get rubber cups mold to the profile of sine wave corrugations while there are trapezoidal shaped bonded plates for that cross section. You can mix and match. They are available through Greentech, if you have a branch you can access. William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Sam Haraldson *Sent:* Thursday, February 14, 2019 9:05 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile Wrenches, I have encountered a corrugated metal seam profile that doesn't fit the standard S-5! Corrubracket we typically employ. I'm looking for alternate solutions if you will, please. The corrugation pattern is 1-1/4" from "ridge" top to "ridge" top and the depth of the "valley" is 1/4". A drawing is attached explaining this further. -- *Sam Haraldson*, Installation Manager OnSite Energy, Inc. NABCEP PV Pro #PV-042217-016714 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Feb 15 01:41:30 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 23:41:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SnapNRack makes a Corrugated Straddle Block Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/14/19 10:37 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > Have you looked at the Proteabracket? > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 12:05 PM Sam Haraldson wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I have encountered a corrugated metal seam profile that doesn't > fit the standard S-5! Corrubracket we typically employ.  I'm > looking for alternate solutions if you will, please. The > corrugation pattern is 1-1/4" from "ridge" top to "ridge" top and > the depth of the "valley" is 1/4".  A drawing is attached > explaining this further. > > -- > *Sam Haraldson*, Installation Manager > > OnSite Energy, Inc. > NABCEP PV Pro #PV-042217-016714 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: phmoennmckekhlmi.png Type: image/png Size: 84946 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Fri Feb 15 10:22:12 2019 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 08:22:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, Andrew, Jason, William, and Ray. I have reached out in one way or another for more info on all of these suggestions and hope to have a solution next week. I'm happy to share my findings for archival purposes here on Wrenches. Cheers, Sam -- *Sam Haraldson*, Installation Manager OnSite Energy, Inc. NABCEP PV Pro #PV-042217-016714 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: phmoennmckekhlmi.png Type: image/png Size: 84946 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Feb 15 01:43:39 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 22:43:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3c844d869404794f9bd934fb28a0086d@mail.gmail.com> Ray: The straddle block does not fit every profile. We have been burned by this reality. Check your measurements. William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray *Sent:* Thursday, February 14, 2019 10:42 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile SnapNRack makes a Corrugated Straddle Block Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/14/19 10:37 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Have you looked at the Proteabracket? Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group On Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 12:05 PM Sam Haraldson OnSite Energy, Inc. NABCEP PV Pro #PV-042217-016714 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 84946 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Feb 15 12:33:00 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 12:33:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile In-Reply-To: <3c844d869404794f9bd934fb28a0086d@mail.gmail.com> References: <3c844d869404794f9bd934fb28a0086d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In the vain of Williams caution, you may also want to look at the amount of space between the bottom of the elevated section of the corrugated profile and the top of the ridge it is straddling - it may require a thicker gasketing or butyl layer in order to create a good seal. Howie Sun Catcher www.suncatchervt.com On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 11:04 AM William Miller wrote: > Ray: > > > > The straddle block does not fit every profile. We have been burned by > this reality. Check your measurements. > > > > William > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Ray > *Sent:* Thursday, February 14, 2019 10:42 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile > > > > SnapNRack makes a Corrugated Straddle Block > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > 303 505-8760 > > On 2/14/19 10:37 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Have you looked at the Proteabracket? > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 12:05 PM Sam Haraldson wrote: > > Wrenches, > > > > I have encountered a corrugated metal seam profile that doesn't fit the > standard S-5! Corrubracket we typically employ. I'm looking for alternate > solutions if you will, please. The corrugation pattern is 1-1/4" from > "ridge" top to "ridge" top and the depth of the "valley" is 1/4". A > drawing is attached explaining this further. > > > > -- > > *Sam Haraldson*, Installation Manager > > OnSite Energy, Inc. > > NABCEP PV Pro #PV-042217-016714 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 84946 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lena at nunatakenergy.com Fri Feb 15 13:37:07 2019 From: lena at nunatakenergy.com (Lena Wilensky) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 11:37:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile (Lena) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We come across this often. Seems the standard profiles don't ever fit the metal sourced in our area. DPW has made custom "Corrugated Mounting Bridges" for us in the past (if you ask them persistently). It's just a squarish U-bracket kind of a thing that has custom height and width to match the roof profile. Space for 4 decking screws that attach at the tops of two ridges, mastic backing, and hole to mount an L-foot. We've also used something similar made by a local metal fabricator. Feel free to contact me if you want more details. Lena Wilensky www.nunatakenergy.com 970-642-5554 NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert. #R02907-17 > > > 1. Re: Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile (Ray) > 2. Re: Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile (Sam Haraldson) > 3. Re: Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile (William Miller) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 23:41:30 -0700 > From: Ray > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > SnapNRack makes a Corrugated Straddle Block > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 2/14/19 10:37 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Have you looked at the Proteabracket? > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 12:05 PM Sam Haraldson > wrote: > > > > Wrenches, > > > > I have encountered a corrugated metal seam profile that doesn't > > fit the standard S-5! Corrubracket we typically employ.? I'm > > looking for alternate solutions if you will, please. The > > corrugation pattern is 1-1/4" from "ridge" top to "ridge" top and > > the depth of the "valley" is 1/4".? A drawing is attached > > explaining this further. > > > > -- > > *Sam Haraldson*, Installation Manager > > > > OnSite Energy, Inc. > > NABCEP PV Pro #PV-042217-016714 > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20190214/0a01509c/attachment-0001.html > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: phmoennmckekhlmi.png > Type: image/png > Size: 84946 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20190214/0a01509c/attachment-0001.png > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 08:22:12 -0700 > From: Sam Haraldson > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile > Message-ID: > GRVQ6U-phzD1h3r19nn1bLT2+Mb_YwJVwZPPxtEp3jw at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Thank you, Andrew, Jason, William, and Ray. I have reached out in one way > or another for more info on all of these suggestions and hope to have a > solution next week. I'm happy to share my findings for archival purposes > here on Wrenches. > > Cheers, > Sam > > > -- > *Sam Haraldson*, Installation Manager > > OnSite Energy, Inc. > NABCEP PV Pro #PV-042217-016714 > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20190215/d8d314f0/attachment-0001.html > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: phmoennmckekhlmi.png > Type: image/png > Size: 84946 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20190215/d8d314f0/attachment-0001.png > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 22:43:39 -0800 > From: William Miller > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile > Message-ID: <3c844d869404794f9bd934fb28a0086d at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Ray: > > > > The straddle block does not fit every profile. We have been burned by this > reality. Check your measurements. > > > > William > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Ray > *Sent:* Thursday, February 14, 2019 10:42 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated Metal - Odd Seam Profile > > > > SnapNRack makes a Corrugated Straddle Block > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > 303 505-8760 > > On 2/14/19 10:37 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Have you looked at the Proteabracket? > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 12:05 PM Sam Haraldson wrote: > > Wrenches, > > > > I have encountered a corrugated metal seam profile that doesn't fit the > standard S-5! Corrubracket we typically employ. I'm looking for alternate > solutions if you will, please. The corrugation pattern is 1-1/4" from > "ridge" top to "ridge" top and the depth of the "valley" is 1/4". A > drawing is attached explaining this further. > > > > -- > > *Sam Haraldson*, Installation Manager > > OnSite Energy, Inc. > > NABCEP PV Pro #PV-042217-016714 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20190214/35d28379/attachment.html > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: image001.png > Type: image/png > Size: 84946 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20190214/35d28379/attachment.png > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 12, Issue 39 > ******************************************* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Feb 15 17:44:38 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 14:44:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island BatFan Settings & 2 PowerVents? Message-ID: <1ee06942-ee83-dbb0-3e56-edd7fb885b09@villagepowerdesign.com> Hi Esteemed Wrenches, Does anyone have an experience with using the BatFan relay function on the Sunny Island Relays? I'm familiar with setting a voltage point for a relay to control a battery box fan but I'm unfamiliar with how the BatFan functions works. The only setting I can find on the SI menus related to BatFan is battery temp.  But then elsewhere I read that the SI will turn on the fan anytime there is gassing.  Surely it can't be determining when it's gassing from only battery temp? Or like in true SI fashion is there some complicated and thorough algorithm functioning that's is tracking the charge cycles and voltage? But no where to set those parameters? Also - I've read through a few conflicting methedologies for calculating CFM needed for any given battery bank to clear the Hydrogen. Zephyr says that there fans are designed for battery packs 2000 Amp-Hours or less charging at 150 Amps or less. I have a largish off-grid system (18KW) with 2490 AH (20hr) of batts set to charge at 200 Amps max. Should I be revisiting those calcs and see if I can find a definitive methodology or will using 2 48 Volt Zephyrs do the trick? Thanks! Jeff -- Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design www.villagepowerdesign.com Ecovillage Design Consultant http://www.villagelab.net New Paradigm Economics http://www.visionarycommons.org cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Feb 16 16:23:25 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 13:23:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid In-Reply-To: <23f06289c98d4e7db1d1c56dcf42ca4c@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> References: <23f06289c98d4e7db1d1c56dcf42ca4c@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Regarding the RSD both here and coming soon to a town near you, I found that the Tigo TS4-R-S is completely compliant for the OutBack system including module level monitoring, however the F model also from Tigo is not at all. I attempted to contact other manufactures but had no success, if they are hard to get or find that does not make me feel warm and fuzzy down the road. So for all of us living and building the off grid dream and wanting to be 2017 compliant when it happens we have a solution. I have had conversations with the insurance groups and for us in the 2017 fire storm on Sonoma and Napa Counties here in California, there has been questions about paying out if the system is either not permitted or modified in such a manor that is unsafe. Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector NABCEP PV Installer On Fri, Feb 8, 2019, 11:59 AM Lones Tuss Hello Jay > Well it seems that I can't leave well enough alone. > > Below are some links I have found to the Tigo and IMO products concerning > module level shutdown. > Both have been tested with OutBack products. > I do not think Tigo or IMO have a presence on Wrenches and I know this is > gaining importance. > I hope this helps. > Take Care All > > Tigo > > https://www.tigoenergy.com/about-tigo/certifications/rapid-shutdown-system-modules/ > > > IMO Fireraptor is a module level shutdown system that is tested and works > with OutBack gear. > https://imorenewableenergy.com/fireraptor.html > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of jay > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 5:02 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid > > ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or > requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** > ________________________________ > > HI All, > > Well its the new year and Module level control is here. 690.12 (B)(2) > > Does anyone have any updates as to products that work with CC's that meet > it? > > Thx > jay > > Peltz Power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Sat Feb 16 17:22:08 2019 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 17:22:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid In-Reply-To: References: <23f06289c98d4e7db1d1c56dcf42ca4c@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: I tried to design a system with TS4-Os and an Outback CC. They were not compatible at that time (about a year ago) due to conflict between optimizer function and Outback MPPT. The system would get stuck off MPPT. I assume that is still the case but cannot confirm. Tigo support kept saying they had resolved the issue (while blaming Outback) but never did. We finally just removed the units. Matt On Sat, February 16, 2019 4:23 pm, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Regarding the RSD both here and coming soon to a town near you, I found > that the Tigo TS4-R-S is completely compliant for the OutBack system > including module level monitoring, however the F model also from Tigo is > not at all. I attempted to contact other manufactures but had no success, > if they are hard to get or find that does not make me feel warm and > fuzzy down the road. So for all of us living and building the off grid > dream and wanting to be 2017 compliant when it happens we have a solution. > I have had conversations with the insurance groups and for us in the > 2017 > fire storm on Sonoma and Napa Counties here in California, there has been > questions about paying out if the system is either not permitted or > modified in such a manor that is unsafe. Jerry > NABCEP PV Inspector > NABCEP PV Installer > > > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2019, 11:59 AM Lones Tuss > >> Hello Jay >> Well it seems that I can't leave well enough alone. >> >> >> Below are some links I have found to the Tigo and IMO products >> concerning module level shutdown. Both have been tested with OutBack >> products. I do not think Tigo or IMO have a presence on Wrenches and I >> know this is gaining importance. I hope this helps. >> Take Care All >> >> >> Tigo >> >> >> https://www.tigoenergy.com/about-tigo/certifications/rapid-shutdown-sys >> tem-modules/ >> >> >> IMO Fireraptor is a module level shutdown system that is tested and >> works with OutBack gear. https://imorenewableenergy.com/fireraptor.html >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf >> Of jay >> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 5:02 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid >> >> >> ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, >> or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** >> ________________________________ >> >> >> HI All, >> >> >> Well its the new year and Module level control is here. 690.12 (B)(2) >> >> >> Does anyone have any updates as to products that work with CC's that >> meet it? >> >> Thx >> jay >> >> Peltz Power >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.h >> tml >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.h >> tml >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Feb 16 17:52:43 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 14:52:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid In-Reply-To: References: <23f06289c98d4e7db1d1c56dcf42ca4c@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: Jerry, Why do you have to meet rapid shutdown on an existing installation please? Down here in the central Sierra we have been uninsurable for fire really since we built the home. Many of my clients self-insure offgrid. We do the best we can for installation and fire hardening and then just cross the fingers. I am interested in this subject because it will get looked at more. Since I mostly always use ground mounted solar I have not been as concerned. You guys really had it bad. I can't imagine all the fires we have had here with those kinds of wind speeds. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Wrenches > Regarding the RSD both here and coming soon to a town near you, I found > that the Tigo TS4-R-S is completely compliant for the OutBack system > including module level monitoring, however the F model also from Tigo is > not at all. I attempted to contact other manufactures but had no success, > if they are hard to get or find that does not make me feel warm and fuzzy > down the road. > So for all of us living and building the off grid dream and wanting to be > 2017 compliant when it happens we have a solution. > I have had conversations with the insurance groups and for us in the 2017 > fire storm on Sonoma and Napa Counties here in California, there has been > questions about paying out if the system is either not permitted or > modified in such a manor that is unsafe. > Jerry > NABCEP PV Inspector > NABCEP PV Installer > > > On Fri, Feb 8, 2019, 11:59 AM Lones Tuss >> Hello Jay >> Well it seems that I can't leave well enough alone. >> >> Below are some links I have found to the Tigo and IMO products >> concerning >> module level shutdown. >> Both have been tested with OutBack products. >> I do not think Tigo or IMO have a presence on Wrenches and I know this >> is >> gaining importance. >> I hope this helps. >> Take Care All >> >> Tigo >> >> https://www.tigoenergy.com/about-tigo/certifications/rapid-shutdown-system-modules/ >> >> >> IMO Fireraptor is a module level shutdown system that is tested and >> works >> with OutBack gear. >> https://imorenewableenergy.com/fireraptor.html >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf >> Of jay >> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 5:02 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid >> >> ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, >> or >> requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** >> ________________________________ >> >> HI All, >> >> Well its the new year and Module level control is here. 690.12 (B)(2) >> >> Does anyone have any updates as to products that work with CC's that >> meet >> it? >> >> Thx >> jay >> >> Peltz Power >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat Feb 16 22:49:46 2019 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 22:49:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX Board compatibility Message-ID: Hi Group, I have quite a collection of VFX and GVFX inverters with board problems. I am trying to get a few working by cannibalizing others. To my knowledge some boards are DC Voltage specific (ie FET Board), Ac Board is common on all FX series, control board is voltage and grid vs off-grid specific. I have a control board that has a double pin selector for 12,24, or 48V. Does anyone know if my recollections above are correct and if the control board with the pin can be changed to the specific voltages just by moving the pin? John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Sun Feb 17 07:18:48 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 07:18:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX Board compatibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2200785F-D2E3-431E-9955-08AE03C80B0F@swnl.net> Hey John, & others; once again I suggest to folks on the list to put Kris Stone’s contact info in their contacts. He is a wealth of OB info and he is able to repair, upgrade ( quick turn around too) boards & has the knowledge to discuss issues & to address issues w/ the older OB products. Kris Stone 425-233-0731 or stkrizzi at yahoo.com tump > On Feb 16, 2019, at 10:49 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > > Hi Group, > I have quite a collection of VFX and GVFX inverters with board problems. I am trying to get a few working by cannibalizing others. To my knowledge some boards are DC Voltage specific (ie FET Board), Ac Board is common on all FX series, control board is voltage and grid vs off-grid specific. I have a control board that has a double pin selector for 12,24, or 48V. Does anyone know if my recollections above are correct and if the control board with the pin can be changed to the specific voltages just by moving the pin? > > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 08:19:28 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 06:19:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Sunny Island to backup Message-ID: Hello Wrenches,, We have been asked to take an SMA Sunny Island System that is off-grid, and convert it to a backup system (Quad stack). Currently, this is a DC coupled system using Midnite charge controllers. We would like to add SMA grid-tied inverters to backfeed excess power. I have located this document: https://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-19.pdf According to this document, there really isn't Sunny Boy inverters available that can function as a backup for a system like this. Is this true? Do you know of any distributors that may have stock of the SB XXXXTLUS-12 line of inverters that would work for this. Thanks for your assistance -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 09:49:55 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 08:49:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Need battery advise want to float batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My customer had C&D 600 AH 24 volt 7 kWh @ 50% DOD. AGM style, for a backup system. After 17 years when the power went out at 23 below. batteries were warm. They delivered only 1.5 kWh before going below 22 volts. The customer wants a similar or better set. On Float all the time. Trojan says they are not the battery, to little cycling. Who? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 10:27:43 2019 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 07:27:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Sunny Island to backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think you can leave it DC coupled and enable grid tie in the Sunny Island inverters. It might not be quite as efficient but a lot more cost effective. If you don't already have it Midnite makes a comm box that makes the Classic look like an SMA device. That might be helpful to coordinate MPPT and grid tie. Brad On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 5:19 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello Wrenches,, > > We have been asked to take an SMA Sunny Island System that is off-grid, > and convert it to a backup system (Quad stack). Currently, this is a DC > coupled system using Midnite charge controllers. We would like to add SMA > grid-tied inverters to backfeed excess power. I have located this document: > https://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-19.pdf > > According to this document, there really isn't Sunny Boy inverters > available that can function as a backup for a system like this. Is this > true? > Do you know of any distributors that may have stock of the SB XXXXTLUS-12 > line of inverters that would work for this. > > Thanks for your assistance > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Mon Feb 18 10:52:42 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 10:52:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Sunny Island to backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2463BE50-4C1E-4BA3-8119-E883F4D4A1FA@swnl.net> Mac having installed quite a few of these and having the SMA SIs installed and operating in my home, ( back up & off grid/ GT) please feel free to contact me off list. I would strongly concur w/ Bradly w/ his suggesting you utilize the dc coupling. Tump > On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:19 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello Wrenches,, > > We have been asked to take an SMA Sunny Island System that is off-grid, and convert it to a backup system (Quad stack). Currently, this is a DC coupled system using Midnite charge controllers. We would like to add SMA grid-tied inverters to backfeed excess power. I have located this document: > https://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-19.pdf > > According to this document, there really isn't Sunny Boy inverters available that can function as a backup for a system like this. Is this true? > Do you know of any distributors that may have stock of the SB XXXXTLUS-12 line of inverters that would work for this. > > Thanks for your assistance > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Mon Feb 18 10:53:39 2019 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 07:53:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Need battery advise want to float batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Darryl, It sounds like you need a new set of calcium based batteries, or LFP batteries, if they can afford them. Remember Lead Antimony batteries want to cycle, calcium batteries, can sit in float for years...Even so, I still like to cycle Lead-Calcium at least 3-4 times a year... If you use a Lead Antimony battery in a backup application, it's a good idea to cycle them 15-30% at least once a month. 17 years is a bit aged for AGM batteries, after 10-12 years, since they are starved electrolyte batteries they tend to dry out, this will cause severe loss of capacity. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 6:50 AM Darryl Thayer wrote: > My customer had C&D 600 AH 24 volt 7 kWh @ 50% DOD. AGM style, for a > backup system. After 17 years when the power went out at 23 below. > batteries were warm. They delivered only 1.5 kWh before going below 22 > volts. The customer wants a similar or better set. On Float all the > time. Trojan says they are not the battery, to little cycling. Who? > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 10:54:01 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 08:54:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Sunny Island to backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Brad, I have heard that the selling from the Midnite charge controllers doesn't work real well. There is a MNSI comm box so it may be the best way (certainly the cheapest). Does anyone have experience with this scenario, good or bad? Thanks for your input as always On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 8:27 AM Bradley Bassett wrote: > I think you can leave it DC coupled and enable grid tie in the Sunny > Island inverters. It might not be quite as efficient but a lot more cost > effective. If you don't already have it Midnite makes a comm box that makes > the Classic look like an SMA device. That might be helpful to coordinate > MPPT and grid tie. > > Brad > > On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 5:19 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches,, >> >> We have been asked to take an SMA Sunny Island System that is off-grid, >> and convert it to a backup system (Quad stack). Currently, this is a DC >> coupled system using Midnite charge controllers. We would like to add SMA >> grid-tied inverters to backfeed excess power. I have located this document: >> https://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-19.pdf >> >> According to this document, there really isn't Sunny Boy inverters >> available that can function as a backup for a system like this. Is this >> true? >> Do you know of any distributors that may have stock of the SB >> XXXXTLUS-12 line of inverters that would work for this. >> >> Thanks for your assistance >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 08:00:32 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 06:00:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Sunny Island to backup In-Reply-To: <2463BE50-4C1E-4BA3-8119-E883F4D4A1FA@swnl.net> References: <2463BE50-4C1E-4BA3-8119-E883F4D4A1FA@swnl.net> Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I received a response from SMA about this: The newest line of Sunny Boys (SBX.XUS-40) can be used in backup systems, as long as the Country Standard is set to IslandMode60Hz and the firmware is at least 2.03.01.R. I plan on trying to look deeper into DC coupling with selling with the Sunny Island. That seems like its the way to go if it works well. Does anyone have field experience with DC coupling a Sunny Island and backfeeding with the MNSI comm box and Midnite cc's? The communication box has worked well in off-grid mode, but I remember talking with a Midnite tech support rep who implied that it wasn't great for backfeed. Thanks On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 8:52 AM Tump wrote: > Mac having installed quite a few of these and having the SMA SIs installed > and operating in my home, ( back up & off grid/ GT) please feel free to > contact me off list. I would strongly concur w/ Bradly w/ his suggesting > you utilize the dc coupling. Tump > > On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:19 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello Wrenches,, > > We have been asked to take an SMA Sunny Island System that is off-grid, > and convert it to a backup system (Quad stack). Currently, this is a DC > coupled system using Midnite charge controllers. We would like to add SMA > grid-tied inverters to backfeed excess power. I have located this document: > https://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-19.pdf > > According to this document, there really isn't Sunny Boy inverters > available that can function as a backup for a system like this. Is this > true? > Do you know of any distributors that may have stock of the SB XXXXTLUS-12 > line of inverters that would work for this. > > Thanks for your assistance > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Thu Feb 21 13:36:41 2019 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 10:36:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid Sunny Island to backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <915c5c18-ee22-b068-6a1c-3a4add464b7e@midnitesolar.com> A Sunny Island (SI) will export excess energy to the grid when the battery voltage is driven above its target voltage (IE absorb or float) so in the case of using a Classic or any other charge controller, the charge controller needs to be set to a higher voltage than the SI. Typically I recommend setting the SI charge voltages about 1v lower than your Charge controller. The issue with using the Midnite MNSICOMM is the SI tells the classic what to charge to so it never  pushes the battery voltage above the setpoint, therefore it never sells. boB On 2/18/2019 7:54 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Brad, > > I have heard that the selling from the Midnite charge controllers > doesn't work real well.  There is a MNSI comm box so it may be the > best way (certainly the cheapest).  Does anyone have experience with > this scenario, good or bad? > > Thanks for your input as always > > On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 8:27 AM Bradley Bassett > wrote: > > I think you can leave it DC coupled and enable grid tie in the > Sunny Island inverters. It might not be quite as efficient but a > lot more cost effective. If you don't already have it Midnite > makes a comm box that makes the Classic look like an SMA device. > That might be helpful to coordinate MPPT and grid tie. > > Brad > > On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 5:19 AM Mac Lewis > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches,, > > We have been asked to take an SMA Sunny Island System that is > off-grid, and convert it to a backup system (Quad stack).  > Currently, this is a DC coupled system using Midnite charge > controllers.  We would like to add SMA grid-tied inverters to > backfeed excess power.  I have located this document: > https://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-19.pdf > > According to this document, there really isn't Sunny Boy > inverters available that can function as a backup for a system > like this.  Is this true? > Do you know of any distributors that may have stock of the  SB > XXXXTLUS-12 line of inverters that would work for this. > > Thanks for your assistance > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Feb 25 10:53:04 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 07:53:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters Message-ID: Friends: I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project. It is a home that has an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied system. The owner wants to add another 10 kW of grid-tied PV. My question is about 705.12, point of connection. Specifically section (D)(1). That section states: *The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible disconnecting means.* So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the outputs have to be aggregated to connect via one circuit breaker? This might be difficult to do as the exiting inverter is connected via a different sub-panel than the one that is planned to receive the new inverter output. This article addresses the question. I would be very grateful if any of you can share any experience you might have in interpreting this section of the code. Thanks in advance. William -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Mon Feb 25 12:05:26 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:05:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here in upstate NY, we have certainly had multiple inverter breakers land in the main panel. In a situation like yours, we have also left the old system as a load side connection, and then turned the new system in to a supply side connection so that the bus bar in the main panel is not overloaded. No inspectors here seem to care as long as the labeling shows what is happening. Although we are also fortunate that most inspectors around here will not make us fix old work as long as we did not touch it and it presents no safety hazard. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 10 Verizon Lane | Lansing, NY 14882 o. *607.930.3481* x6 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 11:42 AM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project. It is a home that has > an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied system. The owner wants to add > another 10 kW of grid-tied PV. My question is about 705.12, point of > connection. Specifically section (D)(1). That section states: > > > > *The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one > system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible > disconnecting means.* > > > > So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the outputs have > to be aggregated to connect via one circuit breaker? This might be > difficult to do as the exiting inverter is connected via a different > sub-panel than the one that is planned to receive the new inverter output. > > > > This article > > addresses the question. > > > > I would be very grateful if any of you can share any experience you might > have in interpreting this section of the code. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Feb 25 12:07:10 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 09:07:10 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William - In this case, it is helpful to look forward to the 2017 NEC for guidance: [image: image.png] I believe it's perfectly fine to have multiple inverter breakers in your main. August Luminalt On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 8:42 AM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project. It is a home that has > an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied system. The owner wants to add > another 10 kW of grid-tied PV. My question is about 705.12, point of > connection. Specifically section (D)(1). That section states: > > > > *The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one > system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible > disconnecting means.* > > > > So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the outputs have > to be aggregated to connect via one circuit breaker? This might be > difficult to do as the exiting inverter is connected via a different > sub-panel than the one that is planned to receive the new inverter output. > > > > This article > > addresses the question. > > > > I would be very grateful if any of you can share any experience you might > have in interpreting this section of the code. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 109904 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Feb 25 17:23:27 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 17:23:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08b1cac5-56cf-5032-6fbc-756881119be4@entech-engineering.com> We just did this, and I think as long as each disconnecting means refers to the other multiple sources and their location, and the directory refers these multiple sources, you are compliant with NEC2017. I guess I will find out..... Chris On 2/25/2019 12:07 PM, August Goers wrote: > Hi William - > > In this case, it is helpful to look forward to the 2017 NEC for guidance: > > image.png > > I believe it's perfectly fine to have multiple inverter breakers in > your main. > > August > Luminalt > > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 8:42 AM William Miller > > wrote: > > Friends: > > I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project.  It is a home > that has an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied system.  The > owner wants to add another 10 kW of grid-tied PV.  My question is > about 705.12, point of connection.  Specifically section (D)(1). > That section states: > > /The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in > one system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible > disconnecting means./ > > So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the > outputs have to be aggregated to connect via one circuit breaker?  > This might be difficult to do as the exiting inverter is connected > via a different sub-panel than the one that is planned to receive > the new inverter output. > > This article > > addresses the question. > > I would be very grateful if any of you can share any experience > you might have in interpreting this section of the code. > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bfekpgcofgbgfoai.png Type: image/png Size: 13146 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mehmhgglcfkiigdf.png Type: image/png Size: 45716 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 109904 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Feb 25 17:31:24 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 17:31:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just reading more slowly, each inverter has to be on its on separate disconnect means. You cannot put multiple inverters on the same disconnecting means unless there are individual disconnecting means upstream. On 2/25/2019 10:53 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project.  It is a home that > has an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied system.  The owner wants > to add another 10 kW of grid-tied PV.  My question is about 705.12, > point of connection. Specifically section (D)(1).  That section states: > > /The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one > system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible > disconnecting means./ > > So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the outputs > have to be aggregated to connect via one circuit breaker?  This might > be difficult to do as the exiting inverter is connected via a > different sub-panel than the one that is planned to receive the new > inverter output. > > This article > > addresses the question. > > I would be very grateful if any of you can share any experience you > might have in interpreting this section of the code. > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 17:39:33 2019 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 17:39:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chris and William There was certainly no intention to mandate that all inverters connect to one OCPD/disconnect.But 705.12(B)(1) in 2017 clarifies that systems like Enphase could have multiple inverters on one breaker, certainly not that all inverters in a building have to be on breaker. If an AHJ raises this issue the answer is as follows: A single inverter can be called a single PV system - see the diagrams in 690.1(b). A building can have multiple PV systems per 690.4(D). Each PV system can have no more than 6 system disconnect switches per 690.13(D). Circuit breakers are allowed as PV system disconnects - 690.13(F)(1). There is no limit to the number of PV systems allowed on a building. Therefore, each inverter can be connected to its own breaker/disco for that PV system. A few further comments : A single PV system can have a single inverter, or multiple inverters. It is up to you to define the system and the PV system disconnect(s) associated with it. OR multiple inverters (power sources) can be connected to a single OCPD/disco up to the manufacturer's maximum OCPD limit, per 705.12(B)(1). OR multiple (let's say 10) inverters in a single system can each have their own OCPD/disco and ONE master PV system disconnect for all 10 inverters to follow the fules of 690.13(D). Lots of options, all allowed! Best, Rebekah Principal, CMP-4 On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 5:31 PM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > Just reading more slowly, each inverter has to be on its on separate > disconnect means. You cannot put multiple inverters on the same > disconnecting means unless there are individual disconnecting means > upstream. > On 2/25/2019 10:53 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project. It is a home that has > an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied system. The owner wants to add > another 10 kW of grid-tied PV. My question is about 705.12, point of > connection. Specifically section (D)(1). That section states: > > > > *The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one > system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible > disconnecting means.* > > > > So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the outputs have > to be aggregated to connect via one circuit breaker? This might be > difficult to do as the exiting inverter is connected via a different > sub-panel than the one that is planned to receive the new inverter output. > > > > This article > > addresses the question. > > > > I would be very grateful if any of you can share any experience you might > have in interpreting this section of the code. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 17:45:32 2019 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 17:45:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I should follow up to say that yes Chris is correct - each inverter does require its own equipment disconnects (AC and DC) per 690.15, but those can be connectors, like for Enphase, or any number of other things, as detailed in 690.15. If you try to keep system and equipment disconnect rules separate in your mind, I think it helps - although of course the inverter AC disconnect for a string inverter will often also be serving as the system disconnect, so there is a lot of overlap. On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 5:39 PM Rebekah Hren wrote: > Hi Chris and William > There was certainly no intention to mandate that all inverters connect > to one OCPD/disconnect.But 705.12(B)(1) in 2017 clarifies that systems like > Enphase could have multiple inverters on one breaker, certainly not that > all inverters in a building have to be on breaker. > > > > If an AHJ raises this issue the answer is as follows: > > > > A single inverter can be called a single PV system - see the diagrams in > 690.1(b). A building can have multiple PV systems per 690.4(D). > > Each PV system can have no more than 6 system disconnect switches per > 690.13(D). Circuit breakers are allowed as PV system disconnects - > 690.13(F)(1). > > There is no limit to the number of PV systems allowed on a building. > > > > Therefore, each inverter can be connected to its own breaker/disco for > that PV system. > > > A few further comments : > > A single PV system can have a single inverter, or multiple inverters. It > is up to you to define the system and the PV system disconnect(s) > associated with it. > > OR multiple inverters (power sources) can be connected to a single > OCPD/disco up to the manufacturer's maximum OCPD limit, per 705.12(B)(1). > > OR multiple (let's say 10) inverters in a single system can each have > their own OCPD/disco and ONE master PV system disconnect for all 10 > inverters to follow the fules of 690.13(D). > > > Lots of options, all allowed! > > > Best, > > Rebekah > > Principal, CMP-4 > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 5:31 PM Christopher Warfel < > cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > >> Just reading more slowly, each inverter has to be on its on separate >> disconnect means. You cannot put multiple inverters on the same >> disconnecting means unless there are individual disconnecting means >> upstream. >> On 2/25/2019 10:53 AM, William Miller wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project. It is a home that >> has an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied system. The owner wants to >> add another 10 kW of grid-tied PV. My question is about 705.12, point of >> connection. Specifically section (D)(1). That section states: >> >> >> >> *The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one >> system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible >> disconnecting means.* >> >> >> >> So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the outputs have >> to be aggregated to connect via one circuit breaker? This might be >> difficult to do as the exiting inverter is connected via a different >> sub-panel than the one that is planned to receive the new inverter output. >> >> >> >> This article >> >> addresses the question. >> >> >> >> I would be very grateful if any of you can share any experience you might >> have in interpreting this section of the code. >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> 401-466-8978 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Feb 25 17:59:11 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 17:59:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, microinverters and now I would think other typologies will be included with module level disconnects becoming more common and I guess required. So, as long as you can disconnect each non microinverter individually, and microinverter strings by one disconnect, you should meeting the intent.  Labeling is key too. I still think that this was a big error and the stated intention of making rooftop pv safer has not been achieved.  The wheel fell off of this "safety improvement". Technology is catching up though. Anyone on a roof better assume the array is live until proven otherwise no matter what installation type it is. Chris On 2/25/2019 5:45 PM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > I should follow up to say that yes Chris is correct - each inverter > does require its own equipment disconnects (AC and DC) per 690.15, but > those can be connectors, like for Enphase, or any number of other > things, as detailed in 690.15. If you try to keep system and equipment > disconnect rules separate in your mind, I think it helps - although of > course the inverter AC disconnect for a string inverter will often > also be serving as the system disconnect, so there is a lot of overlap. > > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 5:39 PM Rebekah Hren > wrote: > > Hi Chris and William > There was certainly no intention to mandate that all inverters > connect to one OCPD/disconnect.But 705.12(B)(1) in 2017 clarifies > that systems like Enphase could have multiple inverters on one > breaker, certainly not  that all inverters in a building have to > be on breaker. > > If an AHJ raises this issue the answer is as follows: > > A single inverter can be called a single PV system  - see the > diagrams in 690.1(b). A building can have multiple PV systems per > 690.4(D). > > Each PV system can have no more than 6 system disconnect switches > per 690.13(D). Circuit breakers are allowed as PV system > disconnects - 690.13(F)(1). > > There is no limit to the number of PV systems allowed on a building. > > Therefore, each inverter can be connected to its own breaker/disco > for that PV system. > > > A few further comments : > > A single PV system can have a single inverter, or multiple > inverters. It is up to you to define the system and the PV system > disconnect(s) associated with it. > > OR multiple inverters (power sources) can be connected to a single > OCPD/disco up to the manufacturer's maximum OCPD limit, per > 705.12(B)(1). > > OR multiple (let's say 10) inverters in a single system can each > have their own OCPD/disco and ONE master PV system disconnect for > all 10 inverters to follow the fules of 690.13(D). > > > Lots of options, all allowed! > > > Best, > > Rebekah > > Principal, CMP-4 > > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 5:31 PM Christopher Warfel > > wrote: > > Just reading more slowly, each inverter has to be on its on > separate disconnect means. You cannot put multiple inverters > on the same disconnecting means unless there are individual > disconnecting means upstream. > > On 2/25/2019 10:53 AM, William Miller wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project.  It is a >> home that has an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied >> system.  The owner wants to add another 10 kW of grid-tied >> PV.  My question is about 705.12, point of connection. >> Specifically section (D)(1).  That section states: >> >> /The source interconnection of one or more inverters >> installed in one system shall be made at a dedicated circuit >> breaker or fusible disconnecting means./ >> >> So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the >> outputs have to be aggregated to connect via one circuit >> breaker?  This might be difficult to do as the exiting >> inverter is connected via a different sub-panel than the one >> that is planned to receive the new inverter output. >> >> This article >> >> addresses the question. >> >> I would be very grateful if any of you can share any >> experience you might have in interpreting this section of the >> code. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> William >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- >                         Christopher Warfel >      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >     401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > > > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Feb 26 00:42:51 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 21:42:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c8adb19c3481afc2eb31406c43b8a88@mail.gmail.com> August: The 2014 code, which the AHJ for this project is using, states the following: (*1) Dedicated Overcurrent and Disconnect. The source* *interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one* *system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible* *disconnecting means.* Note that the language says, “The source interconnection…” (singular), and “at a dedicated circuit breaker…”(again singular). This makes it obvious to me that the language says that the outputs of multiple inverters need to be aggregated and connected via *one* OCPD. I think the other wrenches missed this point. Your input is valuable by contrasting the language of the 2014 code with that of the 2017 version. The inclusion of the phrase “Each source…” in the 2017 code completely changes the meaning. Some AHJs will look to future code versions for clarity even if they are not yet adopted. I think this is a good thing, and I really appreciate you bringing up the new language. The article from AEIA magazine ratifies the conclusion I drew from the 2014 code. Fortunately the AHJ is misinterpreting the section to allow the more liberal interpretation, the one that the 2017 code reflects. I find it best to contact the plan checker directly, which I did, and we are approved for multiple OCPDs. By the way, I think that article is well written and I have book marked it. I don’t know if the 2014 language was a mistake corrected in 2107, or what the thinking was of the authors. Regardless, we live by the language, not the intent. Thank you as well to all who responded. William Miller *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] *Sent:* Monday, February 25, 2019 9:07 AM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters Hi William - In this case, it is helpful to look forward to the 2017 NEC for guidance: [image: image.png] I believe it's perfectly fine to have multiple inverter breakers in your main. August Luminalt On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 8:42 AM William Miller wrote: Friends: I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project. It is a home that has an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied system. The owner wants to add another 10 kW of grid-tied PV. My question is about 705.12, point of connection. Specifically section (D)(1). That section states: *The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible disconnecting means.* So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the outputs have to be aggregated to connect via one circuit breaker? This might be difficult to do as the exiting inverter is connected via a different sub-panel than the one that is planned to receive the new inverter output. This article addresses the question. I would be very grateful if any of you can share any experience you might have in interpreting this section of the code. Thanks in advance. William _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 109904 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Feb 26 08:47:39 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 08:47:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters In-Reply-To: <9c8adb19c3481afc2eb31406c43b8a88@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c8adb19c3481afc2eb31406c43b8a88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5d6cdc36-24f6-011d-07f4-637ce1d26020@entech-engineering.com> If you live by the language, and there are multiple interpretations of the language, then you need to follow the AHJ since they have ultimate authority.  Probably many people on this list have been involved in discussion of interpreting the NEC. That's one of the functions of the WRENCHES listserv. I've inspected many systems for various entities, and with regard to string inverters, they require their own disconnecting means and have for many code cycles.. If you think that it says that multiple inverters may only be interconnected by one OCPD, then I would verify with AHJ and follow what he/she requires. I could read your citation that each inverter shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker.  That's my interpretation. The 2014 is known to have a number of problems. The NEC also suggests that you use best practices. Chris Warfel On 2/26/2019 12:42 AM, William Miller wrote: > > August: > > The 2014 code, which the AHJ for this project is using, states the > following: > > (/1) Dedicated Overcurrent and Disconnect. The source/ > > /interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one/ > > /system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible/ > > /disconnecting means./ > > Note that the language says, “The source interconnection…” (singular), > and “at a dedicated circuit breaker…”(again singular).  This makes it > obvious to me that the language says that the outputs of multiple > inverters need to be aggregated and connected via _one_ OCPD.  I think > the other wrenches missed this point. > > Your input is valuable by contrasting the language of the 2014 code > with that of the 2017 version.  The inclusion of the phrase “Each > source…” in the 2017 code completely changes the meaning.  Some AHJs > will look to future code versions for clarity even if they are not yet > adopted.  I think this is a good thing, and I really appreciate you > bringing up the new language. > > The article from AEIA magazine ratifies the conclusion I drew from the > 2014 code.  Fortunately the AHJ is misinterpreting the section to > allow the more liberal interpretation, the one that the 2017 code > reflects.  I find it best to contact the plan checker directly, which > I did, and we are approved for multiple OCPDs.  By the way, I think > that article is well written and I have book marked it. > > I don’t know if the 2014 language was a mistake corrected in 2107, or > what the thinking was of the authors.  Regardless, we live by the > language, not the intent. > > Thank you as well to all who responded. > > William Miller > > *From:*August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com > ] > *Sent:* Monday, February 25, 2019 9:07 AM > *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters > > Hi William - > > In this case, it is helpful to look forward to the 2017 NEC for guidance: > > image.png > > I believe it's perfectly fine to have multiple inverter breakers in > your main. > > August > > Luminalt > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 8:42 AM William Miller > > wrote: > > Friends: > > I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project.  It is a home > that has an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied system.  The > owner wants to add another 10 kW of grid-tied PV.  My question is > about 705.12, point of connection.  Specifically section (D)(1). > That section states: > > /The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in > one system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible > disconnecting means./ > > So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the > outputs have to be aggregated to connect via one circuit breaker?  > This might be difficult to do as the exiting inverter is connected > via a different sub-panel than the one that is planned to receive > the new inverter output. > > This article > > addresses the question. > > I would be very grateful if any of you can share any experience > you might have in interpreting this section of the code. > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 109904 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Feb 26 17:55:40 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 14:55:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters In-Reply-To: <9c8adb19c3481afc2eb31406c43b8a88@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c8adb19c3481afc2eb31406c43b8a88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William, I agree with Rebekah's response to you - I don't believe it was ever the intention of the 2014 NEC to have only one OCPD allowed per site. Rather, the language is trying to state that you need a dedicated breaker for your inverter or group of microinverters. In other words, you can't tie an inverter into a breaker that also feeds another device. The article by John Wiles is very clearly contrasting this opinion, no arguing there. I think his early interpretation of the 2014 NEC was just plain off. He even mentioned that the definition of "PV system" is unclear and up for AHJ interpretation. In less than a year we'll be under the 2017 NEC in California. August On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 9:45 PM William Miller wrote: > August: > > > > The 2014 code, which the AHJ for this project is using, states the > following: > > > > (*1) Dedicated Overcurrent and Disconnect. The source* > > *interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one* > > *system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible* > > *disconnecting means.* > > > > Note that the language says, “The source interconnection…” (singular), and > “at a dedicated circuit breaker…”(again singular). This makes it obvious > to me that the language says that the outputs of multiple inverters need to > be aggregated and connected via *one* OCPD. I think the other wrenches > missed this point. > > > > Your input is valuable by contrasting the language of the 2014 code with > that of the 2017 version. The inclusion of the phrase “Each source…” in > the 2017 code completely changes the meaning. Some AHJs will look to > future code versions for clarity even if they are not yet adopted. I think > this is a good thing, and I really appreciate you bringing up the new > language. > > > > The article from AEIA magazine ratifies the conclusion I drew from the > 2014 code. Fortunately the AHJ is misinterpreting the section to allow the > more liberal interpretation, the one that the 2017 code reflects. I find > it best to contact the plan checker directly, which I did, and we are > approved for multiple OCPDs. By the way, I think that article is well > written and I have book marked it. > > > > I don’t know if the 2014 language was a mistake corrected in 2107, or what > the thinking was of the authors. Regardless, we live by the language, not > the intent. > > > > Thank you as well to all who responded. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > > > > > *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] > *Sent:* Monday, February 25, 2019 9:07 AM > *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters > > > > Hi William - > > > > In this case, it is helpful to look forward to the 2017 NEC for guidance: > > > > [image: image.png] > > > > I believe it's perfectly fine to have multiple inverter breakers in your > main. > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 8:42 AM William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project. It is a home that has > an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied system. The owner wants to add > another 10 kW of grid-tied PV. My question is about 705.12, point of > connection. Specifically section (D)(1). That section states: > > > > *The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one > system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible > disconnecting means.* > > > > So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the outputs have > to be aggregated to connect via one circuit breaker? This might be > difficult to do as the exiting inverter is connected via a different > sub-panel than the one that is planned to receive the new inverter output. > > > > This article > > addresses the question. > > > > I would be very grateful if any of you can share any experience you might > have in interpreting this section of the code. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 109904 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Feb 27 12:22:13 2019 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:22:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters In-Reply-To: <9c8adb19c3481afc2eb31406c43b8a88@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c8adb19c3481afc2eb31406c43b8a88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, It seems this question needs to be addressed: What is the intended meaning of “installed in one system” in 2014? If you have separate “systems”, they should not be governed by 705.12. So, at what point does a “system” begin and end? PV modules to the disconnect? ...to the load panel? ...to the service entrance? Larry On Feb 25, 2019, at 10:42 PM, William Miller wrote: August: The 2014 code, which the AHJ for this project is using, states the following: (1) Dedicated Overcurrent and Disconnect. The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible disconnecting means. Note that the language says, “The source interconnection…” (singular), and “at a dedicated circuit breaker…”(again singular). This makes it obvious to me that the language says that the outputs of multiple inverters need to be aggregated and connected via one OCPD. I think the other wrenches missed this point. Your input is valuable by contrasting the language of the 2014 code with that of the 2017 version. The inclusion of the phrase “Each source…” in the 2017 code completely changes the meaning. Some AHJs will look to future code versions for clarity even if they are not yet adopted. I think this is a good thing, and I really appreciate you bringing up the new language. The article from AEIA magazine ratifies the conclusion I drew from the 2014 code. Fortunately the AHJ is misinterpreting the section to allow the more liberal interpretation, the one that the 2017 code reflects. I find it best to contact the plan checker directly, which I did, and we are approved for multiple OCPDs. By the way, I think that article is well written and I have book marked it. I don’t know if the 2014 language was a mistake corrected in 2107, or what the thinking was of the authors. Regardless, we live by the language, not the intent. Thank you as well to all who responded. William Miller From: August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com ] Sent: Monday, February 25, 2019 9:07 AM To: William Miller; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters Hi William - In this case, it is helpful to look forward to the 2017 NEC for guidance: I believe it's perfectly fine to have multiple inverter breakers in your main. August Luminalt On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 8:42 AM William Miller > wrote: > Friends: > > I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project. It is a home that has an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied system. The owner wants to add another 10 kW of grid-tied PV. My question is about 705.12, point of connection. Specifically section (D)(1). That section states: > > The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible disconnecting means. > > So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the outputs have to be aggregated to connect via one circuit breaker? This might be difficult to do as the exiting inverter is connected via a different sub-panel than the one that is planned to receive the new inverter output. > > This article addresses the question. > > I would be very grateful if any of you can share any experience you might have in interpreting this section of the code. > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Feb 27 13:43:07 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 13:43:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters In-Reply-To: References: <9c8adb19c3481afc2eb31406c43b8a88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <959722de-0621-3c60-89d2-c2ca35e6924d@entech-engineering.com> I know I keep popping up on this, but 2014 makes no sense if it is saying to connect multiple inverters to one disconnect. It would be difficult and dangerous to take one out of service for any reason including replacement. I would that that you'd have to shut down all the inverters just to replace one. Some of the large commercial/industrial/utility systems have hundreds of inverters and there is no way they would install a system to this interpretation of the NEC. On 2/27/2019 12:22 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > William, > > It seems this question needs to be addressed: What is the intended > meaning of “installed in one system” in 2014? If you have separate > “systems”, they should not be governed by 705.12. So, at what point > does a “system” begin and end? PV modules to the disconnect? ...to the > load panel? ...to the service entrance? > > Larry > > > On Feb 25, 2019, at 10:42 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > August: > > The 2014 code, which the AHJ for this project is using, states the > following: > > (/1) Dedicated Overcurrent and Disconnect. The source/ > /interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one/ > /system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible/ > /disconnecting means./ > > Note that the language says, “The source interconnection…” (singular), > and “at a dedicated circuit breaker…”(again singular). This makes it > obvious to me that the language says that the outputs of multiple > inverters need to be aggregated and connected via_one_OCPD.  I think > the other wrenches missed this point. > > Your input is valuable by contrasting the language of the 2014 code > with that of the 2017 version.  The inclusion of the phrase “Each > source…” in the 2017 code completely changes the meaning.  Some AHJs > will look to future code versions for clarity even if they are not yet > adopted.  I think this is a good thing, and I really appreciate you > bringing up the new language. > > The article from AEIA magazine ratifies the conclusion I drew from the > 2014 code.  Fortunately the AHJ is misinterpreting the section to > allow the more liberal interpretation, the one that the 2017 code > reflects.  I find it best to contact the plan checker directly, which > I did, and we are approved for multiple OCPDs.  By the way, I think > that article is well written and I have book marked it. > > I don’t know if the 2014 language was a mistake corrected in 2107, or > what the thinking was of the authors.  Regardless, we live by the > language, not the intent. > > Thank you as well to all who responded. > > William Miller > > *From:*August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com > ] > *Sent:*Monday, February 25, 2019 9:07 AM > *To:*William Miller; RE-wrenches > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters > > Hi William - > > In this case, it is helpful to look forward to the 2017 NEC for guidance: > > > > I believe it's perfectly fine to have multiple inverter breakers in > your main. > > August > Luminalt > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 8:42 AM William Miller > > wrote: >> Friends: >> >> I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project.  It is a home >> that has an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied system.  The owner >> wants to add another 10 kW of grid-tied PV.  My question is about >> 705.12, point of connection. Specifically section (D)(1).  That >> section states: >> >> /The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one >> system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible >> disconnecting means./ >> >> So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the outputs >> have to be aggregated to connect via one circuit breaker?  This might >> be difficult to do as the exiting inverter is connected via a >> different sub-panel than the one that is planned to receive the new >> inverter output. >> >> Thisarticle >> addresses >> the question. >> >> I would be very grateful if any of you can share any experience you >> might have in interpreting this section of the code. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> William >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Feb 27 13:42:12 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:42:12 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters In-Reply-To: References: <9c8adb19c3481afc2eb31406c43b8a88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Larry, Wrenches: I appreciate your questions and comments. I think there is a broader question here: How do we differentiate between a perceived intent of the Code authors versus the actual language they provide in the Code? Many members of this forum have commented on the forum and to me off-line about the “intent” of the section. I find these discussions have academic value only. I could pretend to know what the intent of the framers of the code section, but how do I prove that intent to a plan checker? Here in the real world we all must deal with building officials who know how to read and can choose to apply that which is in black and white. Furthermore, building officials often refer to trade articles when justifying rulings—articles written by those perceived to be knowledgeable. As an example, referring back to the single point of connection discussion, the interpretation for the requirement for a single point is not mine alone. This article in the IAEI newsletter agrees with the single-point interpretation. Articles like this makes it more difficult to argue that I know the “intent”. See excerpt below for a clear reading of the language: This section has been revised to specifically require that multiple inverters in a single PV system shall be connected to the existing premises wiring system at a *single* dedicated circuit breaker or fusible disconnecting means. This section no longer allows multiple connections to a load center or panelboard where there are multiple inverters involved. Multiple inverters must first be combined in an AC combining panel and the output of that panelboard is then connected to the single point of connection in the distribution equipment through one circuit breaker or fusible disconnecting means. See diagram 1. [image: https://iaeimagazine.org/images/2014_01/14a_WilesFig1.jpg] So I ask this forum: What evidence, other than the language in the 2017 code, can you offer me to take to my local building department that will prove to them that under the 2014 NEC the NFPA did not mean what they wrote in section 705.12(D)(1)? Thanks in advance. William Miller *From:* Starlight Solar Power Systems [mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, February 27, 2019 9:22 AM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters William, It seems this question needs to be addressed: What is the intended meaning of “installed in one system” in 2014? If you have separate “systems”, they should not be governed by 705.12. So, at what point does a “system” begin and end? PV modules to the disconnect? ...to the load panel? ...to the service entrance? Larry On Feb 25, 2019, at 10:42 PM, William Miller wrote: August: The 2014 code, which the AHJ for this project is using, states the following: (*1) Dedicated Overcurrent and Disconnect. The source* *interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one* *system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible* *disconnecting means.* Note that the language says, “The source interconnection…” (singular), and “at a dedicated circuit breaker…”(again singular). This makes it obvious to me that the language says that the outputs of multiple inverters need to be aggregated and connected via *one* OCPD. I think the other wrenches missed this point. Your input is valuable by contrasting the language of the 2014 code with that of the 2017 version. The inclusion of the phrase “Each source…” in the 2017 code completely changes the meaning. Some AHJs will look to future code versions for clarity even if they are not yet adopted. I think this is a good thing, and I really appreciate you bringing up the new language. The article from AEIA magazine ratifies the conclusion I drew from the 2014 code. Fortunately the AHJ is misinterpreting the section to allow the more liberal interpretation, the one that the 2017 code reflects. I find it best to contact the plan checker directly, which I did, and we are approved for multiple OCPDs. By the way, I think that article is well written and I have book marked it. I don’t know if the 2014 language was a mistake corrected in 2107, or what the thinking was of the authors. Regardless, we live by the language, not the intent. Thank you as well to all who responded. William Miller *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] *Sent:* Monday, February 25, 2019 9:07 AM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters Hi William - In this case, it is helpful to look forward to the 2017 NEC for guidance: I believe it's perfectly fine to have multiple inverter breakers in your main. August Luminalt On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 8:42 AM William Miller wrote: Friends: I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project. It is a home that has an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied system. The owner wants to add another 10 kW of grid-tied PV. My question is about 705.12, point of connection. Specifically section (D)(1). That section states: *The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible disconnecting means.* So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the outputs have to be aggregated to connect via one circuit breaker? This might be difficult to do as the exiting inverter is connected via a different sub-panel than the one that is planned to receive the new inverter output. This article addresses the question. I would be very grateful if any of you can share any experience you might have in interpreting this section of the code. Thanks in advance. William _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18634 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Feb 27 13:48:47 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:48:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters In-Reply-To: <959722de-0621-3c60-89d2-c2ca35e6924d@entech-engineering.com> References: <9c8adb19c3481afc2eb31406c43b8a88@mail.gmail.com> <959722de-0621-3c60-89d2-c2ca35e6924d@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <9c3ea7c57c8a60f8fb6b6af4d5f52976@mail.gmail.com> Chris: The 2014 code would require individual disconnecting means prior to aggregation, i.e. an AC combiner. Therefore your scenario would not exist. Wm *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Christopher Warfel *Sent:* Wednesday, February 27, 2019 10:43 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters I know I keep popping up on this, but 2014 makes no sense if it is saying to connect multiple inverters to one disconnect. It would be difficult and dangerous to take one out of service for any reason including replacement. I would that that you'd have to shut down all the inverters just to replace one. Some of the large commercial/industrial/utility systems have hundreds of inverters and there is no way they would install a system to this interpretation of the NEC. On 2/27/2019 12:22 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: William, It seems this question needs to be addressed: What is the intended meaning of “installed in one system” in 2014? If you have separate “systems”, they should not be governed by 705.12. So, at what point does a “system” begin and end? PV modules to the disconnect? ...to the load panel? ...to the service entrance? Larry On Feb 25, 2019, at 10:42 PM, William Miller wrote: August: The 2014 code, which the AHJ for this project is using, states the following: (*1) Dedicated Overcurrent and Disconnect. The source* *interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one* *system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible* *disconnecting means.* Note that the language says, “The source interconnection…” (singular), and “at a dedicated circuit breaker…”(again singular). This makes it obvious to me that the language says that the outputs of multiple inverters need to be aggregated and connected via *one* OCPD. I think the other wrenches missed this point. Your input is valuable by contrasting the language of the 2014 code with that of the 2017 version. The inclusion of the phrase “Each source…” in the 2017 code completely changes the meaning. Some AHJs will look to future code versions for clarity even if they are not yet adopted. I think this is a good thing, and I really appreciate you bringing up the new language. The article from AEIA magazine ratifies the conclusion I drew from the 2014 code. Fortunately the AHJ is misinterpreting the section to allow the more liberal interpretation, the one that the 2017 code reflects. I find it best to contact the plan checker directly, which I did, and we are approved for multiple OCPDs. By the way, I think that article is well written and I have book marked it. I don’t know if the 2014 language was a mistake corrected in 2107, or what the thinking was of the authors. Regardless, we live by the language, not the intent. Thank you as well to all who responded. William Miller *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] *Sent:* Monday, February 25, 2019 9:07 AM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters Hi William - In this case, it is helpful to look forward to the 2017 NEC for guidance: I believe it's perfectly fine to have multiple inverter breakers in your main. August Luminalt On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 8:42 AM William Miller wrote: Friends: I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project. It is a home that has an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied system. The owner wants to add another 10 kW of grid-tied PV. My question is about 705.12, point of connection. Specifically section (D)(1). That section states: *The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible disconnecting means.* So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the outputs have to be aggregated to connect via one circuit breaker? This might be difficult to do as the exiting inverter is connected via a different sub-panel than the one that is planned to receive the new inverter output. This article addresses the question. I would be very grateful if any of you can share any experience you might have in interpreting this section of the code. Thanks in advance. William _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Feb 27 15:54:10 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 12:54:10 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters In-Reply-To: <959722de-0621-3c60-89d2-c2ca35e6924d@entech-engineering.com> References: <9c8adb19c3481afc2eb31406c43b8a88@mail.gmail.com> <959722de-0621-3c60-89d2-c2ca35e6924d@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, For string inverters, the OCPD is sized per 705.60(B) which will specify the minimum breaker rating you need. Then, you can't go above the maximum OCPD specified by the manufacturer. For most string inverters that I can think of, this limits us to one breaker (OCPD) per inverter. I recall bumping into a string inverter without a maximum specificed OCPD rating, but I don't recall which one at the moment. However, for microinverter based systems it is standard to install multiple inverters on one branch circuit with one OCPD. August On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 10:43 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > I know I keep popping up on this, but 2014 makes no sense if it is saying > to connect multiple inverters to one disconnect. It would be difficult and > dangerous to take one out of service for any reason including replacement. > I would that that you'd have to shut down all the inverters just to replace > one. Some of the large commercial/industrial/utility systems have hundreds > of inverters and there is no way they would install a system to this > interpretation of the NEC. > On 2/27/2019 12:22 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > William, > > It seems this question needs to be addressed: What is the intended meaning > of “installed in one system” in 2014? If you have separate “systems”, they > should not be governed by 705.12. So, at what point does a “system” begin > and end? PV modules to the disconnect? ...to the load panel? ...to the > service entrance? > > Larry > > > On Feb 25, 2019, at 10:42 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > August: > > > The 2014 code, which the AHJ for this project is using, states the > following: > > > (*1) Dedicated Overcurrent and Disconnect. The source* > *interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one* > *system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible* > *disconnecting means.* > > > Note that the language says, “The source interconnection…” (singular), and > “at a dedicated circuit breaker…”(again singular). This makes it obvious > to me that the language says that the outputs of multiple inverters need to > be aggregated and connected via *one* OCPD. I think the other wrenches > missed this point. > > > Your input is valuable by contrasting the language of the 2014 code with > that of the 2017 version. The inclusion of the phrase “Each source…” in > the 2017 code completely changes the meaning. Some AHJs will look to > future code versions for clarity even if they are not yet adopted. I think > this is a good thing, and I really appreciate you bringing up the new > language. > > > The article from AEIA magazine ratifies the conclusion I drew from the > 2014 code. Fortunately the AHJ is misinterpreting the section to allow the > more liberal interpretation, the one that the 2017 code reflects. I find > it best to contact the plan checker directly, which I did, and we are > approved for multiple OCPDs. By the way, I think that article is well > written and I have book marked it. > > > I don’t know if the 2014 language was a mistake corrected in 2107, or what > the thinking was of the authors. Regardless, we live by the language, not > the intent. > > > Thank you as well to all who responded. > > > William Miller > > > > > > > > > *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] > *Sent:* Monday, February 25, 2019 9:07 AM > *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters > > > Hi William - > > > In this case, it is helpful to look forward to the 2017 NEC for guidance: > > > > > > I believe it's perfectly fine to have multiple inverter breakers in your > main. > > > August > Luminalt > > > > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 8:42 AM William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > > I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project. It is a home that has > an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied system. The owner wants to add > another 10 kW of grid-tied PV. My question is about 705.12, point of > connection. Specifically section (D)(1). That section states: > > > *The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one > system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible > disconnecting means.* > > > So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the outputs have > to be aggregated to connect via one circuit breaker? This might be > difficult to do as the exiting inverter is connected via a different > sub-panel than the one that is planned to receive the new inverter output. > > > This article > addresses > the question. > > > I would be very grateful if any of you can share any experience you might > have in interpreting this section of the code. > > > Thanks in advance. > > > William > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Feb 27 16:48:49 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:48:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters In-Reply-To: <9c3ea7c57c8a60f8fb6b6af4d5f52976@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c8adb19c3481afc2eb31406c43b8a88@mail.gmail.com> <959722de-0621-3c60-89d2-c2ca35e6924d@entech-engineering.com> <9c3ea7c57c8a60f8fb6b6af4d5f52976@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The original question was w/r to:**/The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible disconnecting means./ and whether one disconnect could be used to disconnect multiple inverters. The inference as I read it was that there was no other disconnect means for the inverters in question. If you use an AC combiner upstream of the disconnecting means with individual OCPDs as required, then you have your individual disconnection and that is required and has been practiced for many code cycles. A circuit breaker OCPD is a code compliant disconnecting means. I cannot imagine anyone using an AC combiner method and not using OCPDc. Using a disconnecting means to then disconnect downstream AFTER an AC combiner is of course allowed. Chris Warfel / / On 2/27/2019 1:48 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Chris: > > The 2014 code would require individual disconnecting means prior to > aggregation, i.e. an AC combiner.  Therefore your scenario would not > exist. > > Wm > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Christopher Warfel > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 27, 2019 10:43 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters > > I know I keep popping up on this, but 2014 makes no sense if it is > saying to connect multiple inverters to one disconnect. It would be > difficult and dangerous to take one out of service for any reason > including replacement. I would that that you'd have to shut down all > the inverters just to replace one. Some of the large > commercial/industrial/utility systems have hundreds of inverters and > there is no way they would install a system to this interpretation of > the NEC. > > On 2/27/2019 12:22 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > William, > > It seems this question needs to be addressed: What is the intended > meaning of “installed in one system” in 2014? If you have separate > “systems”, they should not be governed by 705.12. So, at what > point does a “system” begin and end? PV modules to the disconnect? > ...to the load panel? ...to the service entrance? > > Larry > > On Feb 25, 2019, at 10:42 PM, William Miller > > wrote: > > August: > > The 2014 code, which the AHJ for this project is using, states the > following: > > (/1) Dedicated Overcurrent and Disconnect. The source/ > > /interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one/ > > /system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible/ > > /disconnecting means./ > > Note that the language says, “The source interconnection…” > (singular), and “at a dedicated circuit breaker…”(again > singular).  This makes it obvious to me that the language says > that the outputs of multiple inverters need to be aggregated and > connected via_one_OCPD.  I think the other wrenches missed this point. > > Your input is valuable by contrasting the language of the 2014 > code with that of the 2017 version.  The inclusion of the phrase > “Each source…” in the 2017 code completely changes the meaning.  > Some AHJs will look to future code versions for clarity even if > they are not yet adopted.  I think this is a good thing, and I > really appreciate you bringing up the new language. > > The article from AEIA magazine ratifies the conclusion I drew from > the 2014 code.  Fortunately the AHJ is misinterpreting the section > to allow the more liberal interpretation, the one that the 2017 > code reflects.  I find it best to contact the plan checker > directly, which I did, and we are approved for multiple OCPDs.  By > the way, I think that article is well written and I have book > marked it. > > I don’t know if the 2014 language was a mistake corrected in 2107, > or what the thinking was of the authors.  Regardless, we live by > the language, not the intent. > > Thank you as well to all who responded. > > William Miller > > *From:*August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com > ] > *Sent:*Monday, February 25, 2019 9:07 AM > *To:*William Miller; RE-wrenches > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters > > Hi William - > > In this case, it is helpful to look forward to the 2017 NEC for > guidance: > > > > I believe it's perfectly fine to have multiple inverter breakers > in your main. > > August > > Luminalt > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 8:42 AM William Miller > > wrote: > > Friends: > > I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project.  It is a > home that has an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied > system.  The owner wants to add another 10 kW of grid-tied > PV.  My question is about 705.12, point of connection.  > Specifically section (D)(1).  That section states: > > /The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed > in one system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or > fusible disconnecting means./ > > So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the > outputs have to be aggregated to connect via one circuit > breaker?  This might be difficult to do as the exiting > inverter is connected via a different sub-panel than the one > that is planned to receive the new inverter output. > > Thisarticle > addresses > the question. > > I would be very grateful if any of you can share any > experience you might have in interpreting this section of the > code. > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Wed Feb 27 17:26:51 2019 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 17:26:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ARE 110 Turbine Controller Alternative Message-ID: Greetings, I have a customer whose ARE 110 voltage clamp has stopped working. I'm looking for a work around. Has anyone been down this road before? If so, I would like to hear what you've learned and maybe save myself some mis-steps in the process. Many thanks! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ryan at mayfield.energy Wed Feb 27 17:44:34 2019 From: ryan at mayfield.energy (Ryan Mayfield) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 14:44:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters In-Reply-To: References: <9c8adb19c3481afc2eb31406c43b8a88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, In the article you linked, directly after the image you included most recently, John Wiles states "Unfortunately, we do not have a definition of “PV system” in the Code." I would have to disagree there. Article 100, Definitions includes: "Photovoltaic (PV) System. The total components and sub-system that, in combination, convert solar energy into electric energy suitable for connection to a utilization load." In the scenario you present, there is an existing PV system on the premises interconnected to a panel. You are proposing to add a second PV system that is independent from the first, that will interconnect in a separate panel. So you in fact, have two PV systems on the premises, allowed by 690.4, and each will have "the source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker." The second system does not rely on the first to convert solar energy to electrical energy so you will supply a singular circuit breaker for the interconnection of each system. Ryan On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 10:42 AM William Miller wrote: > Larry, Wrenches: > > > > I appreciate your questions and comments. I think there is a broader > question here: How do we differentiate between a perceived intent of the > Code authors versus the actual language they provide in the Code? > > > > Many members of this forum have commented on the forum and to me off-line > about the “intent” of the section. I find these discussions have academic > value only. I could pretend to know what the intent of the framers of the > code section, but how do I prove that intent to a plan checker? > > > > Here in the real world we all must deal with building officials who know > how to read and can choose to apply that which is in black and white. > Furthermore, building officials often refer to trade articles when > justifying rulings—articles written by those perceived to be > knowledgeable. As an example, referring back to the single point of > connection discussion, the interpretation for the requirement for a single > point is not mine alone. This article > > in the IAEI newsletter agrees with the single-point interpretation. > Articles like this makes it more difficult to argue that I know the > “intent”. See excerpt below for a clear reading of the language: > > > > This section has been revised to specifically require that multiple > inverters in a single PV system shall be connected to the existing premises > wiring system at a *single* dedicated circuit breaker or fusible > disconnecting means. This section no longer allows multiple connections to > a load center or panelboard where there are multiple inverters involved. > Multiple inverters must first be combined in an AC combining panel and the > output of that panelboard is then connected to the single point of > connection in the distribution equipment through one circuit breaker or > fusible disconnecting means. See diagram 1. > > [image: https://iaeimagazine.org/images/2014_01/14a_WilesFig1.jpg] > > So I ask this forum: What evidence, other than the language in the 2017 > code, can you offer me to take to my local building department that will > prove to them that under the 2014 NEC the NFPA did not mean what they wrote > in section 705.12(D)(1)? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > *From:* Starlight Solar Power Systems [mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 27, 2019 9:22 AM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters > > > > William, > > > > It seems this question needs to be addressed: What is the intended meaning > of “installed in one system” in 2014? If you have separate “systems”, they > should not be governed by 705.12. So, at what point does a “system” begin > and end? PV modules to the disconnect? ...to the load panel? ...to the > service entrance? > > > > Larry > > > > > > On Feb 25, 2019, at 10:42 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > > > August: > > > > The 2014 code, which the AHJ for this project is using, states the > following: > > > > (*1) Dedicated Overcurrent and Disconnect. The source* > > *interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one* > > *system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible* > > *disconnecting means.* > > > > Note that the language says, “The source interconnection…” (singular), and > “at a dedicated circuit breaker…”(again singular). This makes it obvious > to me that the language says that the outputs of multiple inverters need to > be aggregated and connected via *one* OCPD. I think the other wrenches > missed this point. > > > > Your input is valuable by contrasting the language of the 2014 code with > that of the 2017 version. The inclusion of the phrase “Each source…” in > the 2017 code completely changes the meaning. Some AHJs will look to > future code versions for clarity even if they are not yet adopted. I think > this is a good thing, and I really appreciate you bringing up the new > language. > > > > The article from AEIA magazine ratifies the conclusion I drew from the > 2014 code. Fortunately the AHJ is misinterpreting the section to allow the > more liberal interpretation, the one that the 2017 code reflects. I find > it best to contact the plan checker directly, which I did, and we are > approved for multiple OCPDs. By the way, I think that article is well > written and I have book marked it. > > > > I don’t know if the 2014 language was a mistake corrected in 2107, or what > the thinking was of the authors. Regardless, we live by the language, not > the intent. > > > > Thank you as well to all who responded. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > > > > > *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] > *Sent:* Monday, February 25, 2019 9:07 AM > *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters > > > > Hi William - > > > > In this case, it is helpful to look forward to the 2017 NEC for guidance: > > > > > > > > I believe it's perfectly fine to have multiple inverter breakers in your > main. > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 8:42 AM William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I have an NEC code question on an upcoming project. It is a home that has > an existing 8 kW ground-mounted grid-tied system. The owner wants to add > another 10 kW of grid-tied PV. My question is about 705.12, point of > connection. Specifically section (D)(1). That section states: > > > > *The source interconnection of one or more inverters installed in one > system shall be made at a dedicated circuit breaker or fusible > disconnecting means.* > > > > So if there are going to be two inverters on premise, do the outputs have > to be aggregated to connect via one circuit breaker? This might be > difficult to do as the exiting inverter is connected via a different > sub-panel than the one that is planned to receive the new inverter output. > > > > This article > addresses > the question. > > > > I would be very grateful if any of you can share any experience you might > have in interpreting this section of the code. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- **We rebranded, please save my new email address to your contacts.* Ryan Mayfield President Mayfield Renewables 1220 NW Kings Blvd. Corvallis, OR 97330 541.754.2001 office 541.231.9984 cell mayfield.energy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18634 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lauraconchelos at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 18:28:11 2019 From: lauraconchelos at gmail.com (Laura Conchelos) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 16:28:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider SW 4048 error Message-ID: Howdy, I have a Schneider 4048 being used off-grid and it keeps turning off. It shows errors 52-56, all of which are EEPROM ERROR. There is no fault light and the inverter can be turned on again and runs for a couple of hours before it seems to happen again. In the manual it says: "Clear the fault and check the latest configuration made or any recent configurations. If fault detection reoccurs or occurs frequently, service is required." I can't think of anything I configured that would cause this. And Schneider has you fill out a web form rather than answer a phone call apparently. Does anyone have a good tech support number for Schneider? Thanks! Laura -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 18:54:23 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 16:54:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider SW 4048 error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Laura, First thing I would try is to update the firmware. Eeprom is a type of memory so maybe you have a bad board but I have remedied this error with a firmware update. Here is what works with Schneider tech support last I checked: (833)391-8640 option 8 Good luck On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 4:28 PM Laura Conchelos wrote: > Howdy, > I have a Schneider 4048 being used off-grid and it keeps turning off. It > shows errors 52-56, all of which are EEPROM ERROR. There is no fault > light and the inverter can be turned on again and runs for a couple of > hours before it seems to happen again. In the manual it says: "Clear the > fault and check the latest configuration made or any recent > configurations. If fault detection reoccurs or occurs frequently, service > is required." I can't think of anything I configured that would cause > this. And Schneider has you fill out a web form rather than answer a phone > call apparently. Does anyone have a good tech support number for Schneider? > > Thanks! > Laura > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Feb 28 18:39:13 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 15:39:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider SW 4048 error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <048bf55ffee26876c505d2d70cd36936@127.0.0.1> Hi Laura, Is this your CSW? If so you should get on their dealer/installer list and it will make it faster next time. Did you look at if there were warnings also? Is there a combox. If SCP only look at "view device info" under the CSW. It should be se set for advanced settings. Is there still warranty and is it up to date with firmware? The XW line is mature but the CSW has had alot of firmware to get it reliable. I really only use CSW for a spare offgrid. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 16:28:11 -0700, Laura Conchelos wrote: Howdy, I have a Schneider 4048 being used off-grid and it keeps turning off. It shows errors 52-56, all of which are EEPROM ERROR. There is no fault light and the inverter can be turned on again and runs for a couple of hours before it seems to happen again. In the manual it says: "Clear the fault and check the latest configuration made or any recent configurations. If fault detection reoccurs or occurs frequently, service is required." I can't think of anything I configured that would cause this. And Schneider has you fill out a web form rather than answer a phone call apparently. Does anyone have a good tech support number for Schneider? Thanks! Laura -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 20:00:13 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 20:00:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider SW 4048 error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac, You may already know this, but Schneider has requested that installers not pass out their live tech phone number. I assume it is because they are trying to vet who calls in on it, keeping it to working wrenches and designers in order to keep our wait times and their costs down. You might disagree with that philosophy, but I thought I'd reiterate it for the list none-the-less. Best, Howie Sun Catcher On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 6:54 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Laura, > > First thing I would try is to update the firmware. Eeprom is a type of > memory so maybe you have a bad board but I have remedied this error with a > firmware update. > > Here is what works with Schneider tech support last I checked: > (833)391-8640 option 8 > > Good luck > > On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 4:28 PM Laura Conchelos > wrote: > >> Howdy, >> I have a Schneider 4048 being used off-grid and it keeps turning off. It >> shows errors 52-56, all of which are EEPROM ERROR. There is no fault >> light and the inverter can be turned on again and runs for a couple of >> hours before it seems to happen again. In the manual it says: "Clear the >> fault and check the latest configuration made or any recent >> configurations. If fault detection reoccurs or occurs frequently, >> service is required." I can't think of anything I configured that would >> cause this. And Schneider has you fill out a web form rather than answer a >> phone call apparently. Does anyone have a good tech support number for >> Schneider? >> >> Thanks! >> Laura >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 20:16:35 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 18:16:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider SW 4048 error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Howie, Yes, I am aware of this. I think getting on the REwrenches list is rigorous enough to allow a quick pass, but I could be wrong and/or overly optimistic. I fully understand Schneider's position on this and appreciate it (I really do). It is an easy filter to work through but a bit confusing. I'm just trying to help with quick resolution, but I can appreciate what they are trying to do. In some ways, a secret installer-only code, is the best resolution we can hope for to mitigate the tech support burden that these companies have. I can only imagine the questions that they receive. Apologies if I was too free with that info. Thanks for pointing this out. On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 6:00 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Mac, > You may already know this, but Schneider has requested that installers not > pass out their live tech phone number. I assume it is because they are > trying to vet who calls in on it, keeping it to working wrenches and > designers in order to keep our wait times and their costs down. You might > disagree with that philosophy, but I thought I'd reiterate it for the list > none-the-less. > Best, > Howie > Sun Catcher > > On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 6:54 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hi Laura, >> >> First thing I would try is to update the firmware. Eeprom is a type of >> memory so maybe you have a bad board but I have remedied this error with a >> firmware update. >> >> Here is what works with Schneider tech support last I checked: >> (833)391-8640 option 8 >> >> Good luck >> >> On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 4:28 PM Laura Conchelos >> wrote: >> >>> Howdy, >>> I have a Schneider 4048 being used off-grid and it keeps turning off. It >>> shows errors 52-56, all of which are EEPROM ERROR. There is no fault >>> light and the inverter can be turned on again and runs for a couple of >>> hours before it seems to happen again. In the manual it says: "Clear >>> the fault and check the latest configuration made or any recent >>> configurations. If fault detection reoccurs or occurs frequently, >>> service is required." I can't think of anything I configured that would >>> cause this. And Schneider has you fill out a web form rather than answer a >>> phone call apparently. Does anyone have a good tech support number for >>> Schneider? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> Laura >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 20:42:26 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 20:42:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider SW 4048 error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Getting on the wrenches is perhaps a good enough filter for this purpose, but remember that the archives are available to anyone who takes the time to search, which may be a big enough impediment to most 😎. Howie On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 8:16 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Thanks Howie, > > Yes, I am aware of this. I think getting on the REwrenches list is > rigorous enough to allow a quick pass, but I could be wrong and/or overly > optimistic. I fully understand Schneider's position on this and appreciate > it (I really do). It is an easy filter to work through but a bit > confusing. I'm just trying to help with quick resolution, but I can > appreciate what they are trying to do. In some ways, a secret > installer-only code, is the best resolution we can hope for to mitigate the > tech support burden that these companies have. I can only imagine the > questions that they receive. Apologies if I was too free with that info. > > Thanks for pointing this out. > > On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 6:00 PM Howie Michaelson < > Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Mac, >> You may already know this, but Schneider has requested that installers >> not pass out their live tech phone number. I assume it is because they are >> trying to vet who calls in on it, keeping it to working wrenches and >> designers in order to keep our wait times and their costs down. You might >> disagree with that philosophy, but I thought I'd reiterate it for the list >> none-the-less. >> Best, >> Howie >> Sun Catcher >> >> On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 6:54 PM Mac Lewis wrote: >> >>> Hi Laura, >>> >>> First thing I would try is to update the firmware. Eeprom is a type of >>> memory so maybe you have a bad board but I have remedied this error with a >>> firmware update. >>> >>> Here is what works with Schneider tech support last I checked: >>> (833)391-8640 option 8 >>> >>> Good luck >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 4:28 PM Laura Conchelos < >>> lauraconchelos at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Howdy, >>>> I have a Schneider 4048 being used off-grid and it keeps turning off. >>>> It shows errors 52-56, all of which are EEPROM ERROR. There is no >>>> fault light and the inverter can be turned on again and runs for a couple >>>> of hours before it seems to happen again. In the manual it says: "Clear >>>> the fault and check the latest configuration made or any recent >>>> configurations. If fault detection reoccurs or occurs frequently, >>>> service is required." I can't think of anything I configured that >>>> would cause this. And Schneider has you fill out a web form rather than >>>> answer a phone call apparently. Does anyone have a good tech support number >>>> for Schneider? >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> Laura >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Feb 28 19:44:44 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 19:44:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider SW 4048 error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006d01d4cfc7$ff4e2560$fdea7020$@glbcc.com> This number and extension should only be used if you have previously filled out their online form to be included as an installer in their records. We had an extensive discussion revolving around this new procedure in the recent past here on this forum. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2019 6:54 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider SW 4048 error Hi Laura, First thing I would try is to update the firmware. Eeprom is a type of memory so maybe you have a bad board but I have remedied this error with a firmware update. Here is what works with Schneider tech support last I checked: (833)391-8640 option 8 Good luck On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 4:28 PM Laura Conchelos > wrote: Howdy, I have a Schneider 4048 being used off-grid and it keeps turning off. It shows errors 52-56, all of which are EEPROM ERROR. There is no fault light and the inverter can be turned on again and runs for a couple of hours before it seems to happen again. In the manual it says: "Clear the fault and check the latest configuration made or any recent configurations. If fault detection reoccurs or occurs frequently, service is required." I can't think of anything I configured that would cause this. And Schneider has you fill out a web form rather than answer a phone call apparently. Does anyone have a good tech support number for Schneider? Thanks! Laura _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Fri Mar 1 17:50:01 2019 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2019 22:50:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider SW 4048 error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Laura, I agree with everyone recommendation, first try uploading the latest firmware for the units. You can locate it on this link: Under downloads and firmware https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/conext-sw-na/ If that doesn’t work then you must process an RMA, the webform should be the easiest way to request the RMA since this is a straightforward case. As far as calling tech support, you must register first at this link: https://solar.schneider-electric.com/installer-registration/ In a few hours you should receive an email response with the phone numbers and the access code, you only do this once for the company. Then everyone on your team can call using the number. I hope this helps Sandra Herrera Sandra.herrera at se.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Laura Conchelos Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2019 7:28 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider SW 4048 error [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ Howdy, I have a Schneider 4048 being used off-grid and it keeps turning off. It shows errors 52-56, all of which are EEPROM ERROR. There is no fault light and the inverter can be turned on again and runs for a couple of hours before it seems to happen again. In the manual it says: "Clear the fault and check the latest configuration made or any recent configurations. If fault detection reoccurs or occurs frequently, service is required." I can't think of anything I configured that would cause this. And Schneider has you fill out a web form rather than answer a phone call apparently. Does anyone have a good tech support number for Schneider? Thanks! Laura ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Mar 2 22:54:16 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2019 19:54:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics-RE Message-ID: Hi all, Does optics RE have a history of changes made to setpoints/settings? I’m pretty sure not, but wanted to check, Thx Jay PS. And if not might be a good thing to add? From dahlsolar at gmail.com Sun Mar 3 09:53:12 2019 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 08:53:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback grid-tie question Message-ID: Hello all, I looked at a battery back up system a couple days ago and have been looking over it since and can’t seem to find anything causing the problem. The system was shutdown for some work on the building and when it was turned back on it would not sell back to the grid. It will connect to the AC line but when the storage is full and all loads are off it will not sell. The CC will state it is in “GT MODE” and all the setting are correct. I’ve checked it on optics RE and the mate, turned it on and off, moved settings. I have not done an update. As always, thank you! Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Sun Mar 3 10:36:19 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 15:36:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics-RE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, but it would be a great idea. Another feature that would be nice would be an option to export/import complete configurations. -Kienan > On Mar 2, 2019, at 10:04 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all, > > Does optics RE have a history of changes made to setpoints/settings? > > I’m pretty sure not, but wanted to check, > > Thx > > Jay > > PS. And if not might be a good thing to add? > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb408cd7513af43a46fe008d69f95c82a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636871862983916124&sdata=Roz%2BSTN12lQIWn%2BtbQXyzwT5grg1nhRC3adf5FC7SiA%3D&reserved=0 > > List-Archive: https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb408cd7513af43a46fe008d69f95c82a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636871862983926141&sdata=jzPKXgT6zbQ%2BVm%2BLUQc62p6omhOuqs3EdYa1tgW9JFs%3D&reserved=0 > > List rules & etiquette: > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb408cd7513af43a46fe008d69f95c82a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636871862983926141&sdata=gzOmbFJL6CfNH6%2BKGJdl23Ohn7OndgU1Kp%2BR1iWSTWc%3D&reserved=0 > > Check out or update participant bios: > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.members.re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb408cd7513af43a46fe008d69f95c82a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636871862983926141&sdata=evKPJqVYBw4fFGT4ViGnkqlXJfWkj3AEViyfWuZsbD4%3D&reserved=0 > From william at millersolar.com Sun Mar 3 16:01:12 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 13:01:12 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics-RE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5f7de61a74c956ff2f1de567101edd37@mail.gmail.com> Jay: I do not believe programming changes are logged anywhere in Optics or locally. However you can program Optics to notify you if a programming change occurs. You can see that changes were made but not what those changes are. See below for an excerpt of an email alert I received on one of our systems. I might add that none of these changes are real. These are all phantom changes-- which is an ongoing bug with the Optics System. These notifications will also inform you if actual changes are made, but again not what was changed. This bug makes it hard to trust these notifications. If you are worried about unauthorized persons making changes, your best practice is to set an installer password and limit access. *Event Description * *Timestamp * Configuration changes are made remotely via OPTICS 02/21/2019 07:31 Configuration changes are made locally via MATE3/AXS Port 02/21/2019 07:32 Configuration changes are made remotely via OPTICS 02/21/2019 07:33 Configuration changes are made remotely via OPTICS 02/21/2019 07:33 Configuration changes are made locally via MATE3/AXS Port 02/21/2019 07:33 Kienan: You can save and restore configurations while on site. You may know this and I may be misunderstanding your question—the function is pretty visible on the Mate3 or 3s. You save the configuration files to SD card and you can copy them from the card to a computer for record keeping or later analysis. Frequently saving this file is how you create a log of programming changes. There is a way you can parse the settings into a spreadsheet. Unfortunately I do not believe saving configuration files can be automated or done remotely. I hope this information helps. William Miller PS: I have records of an Outback FX system changing its own settings, even changing stacking autonomously (shutting down the system). This is another reason I have a love/hate relationship with Outback. Wm -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kienan Maxfield Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2019 7:36 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics-RE No, but it would be a great idea. Another feature that would be nice would be an option to export/import complete configurations. -Kienan > On Mar 2, 2019, at 10:04 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all, > > Does optics RE have a history of changes made to setpoints/settings? > > I’m pretty sure not, but wanted to check, > > Thx > > Jay > > PS. And if not might be a good thing to add? > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb408cd7513af43a46fe008d69f95c82a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636871862983916124&sdata=Roz%2BSTN12lQIWn%2BtbQXyzwT5grg1nhRC3adf5FC7SiA%3D&reserved=0 > > List-Archive: https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb408cd7513af43a46fe008d69f95c82a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636871862983926141&sdata=jzPKXgT6zbQ%2BVm%2BLUQc62p6omhOuqs3EdYa1tgW9JFs%3D&reserved=0 > > List rules & etiquette: > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb408cd7513af43a46fe008d69f95c82a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636871862983926141&sdata=gzOmbFJL6CfNH6%2BKGJdl23Ohn7OndgU1Kp%2BR1iWSTWc%3D&reserved=0 > > Check out or update participant bios: > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.members.re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb408cd7513af43a46fe008d69f95c82a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636871862983926141&sdata=evKPJqVYBw4fFGT4ViGnkqlXJfWkj3AEViyfWuZsbD4%3D&reserved=0 > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Sun Mar 3 22:15:24 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 03:15:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics-RE In-Reply-To: <5f7de61a74c956ff2f1de567101edd37@mail.gmail.com> References: , <5f7de61a74c956ff2f1de567101edd37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, Thanks. Yes, that's my normal practice. I am quite familiar with that process. I am a big outback user. I just meant that it would be cool if they were to add that same functionality to Optics, rather than having to be on site. If you could export the configuration on optics, then you could easily compare it to the old configuration, and make a log of programming changes. I have found myself making adjustments periodically on Optics as many of my sites are 2 to 4 hours away (each way). Thanks, Kienan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Mon Mar 4 08:23:21 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 13:23:21 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DKD Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello all, I just got back from looking at an off-grid system that is only about 4 months old or so, and it has several problems. I have specialized in off-grid for 8 years, so most of the problems will be easy for me, but there's just one thing that is a bit perplexing and I'm hoping someone might have some advice. The system was "designed" by some retailer in Texas (I don't know who) and the home-owner found some local installer to put it together for him (they already charged a ridiculous price and they won't come back). The battery is a big bank of DKD LiFePO4 batteries, each one says 100 Ah @ 12.8V. They are in series sets of 4 for 48V. I think there were 5 strings (500 ah total). There are no com wires from battery to battery or anything like that (nor did I find anywhere for com ports). I have not yet been successful in finding any information about these batteries online. I'm not that familiar with this type of battery and I'm hoping that some of you might have some info/insight on a couple of questions about this situation. Here's a picture of one of the batteries, [cid:68a6702b-b5fc-4fa5-8779-dbaf91d6dd7d] 1. The biggest question is if this configuration is okay. I'm not familiar with this type of batteries, but I saw at least one brand that said not to put their batteries in series. They said that (at least with their brand) if you needed a 48V battery, you couldn't use (4) 12V batteries. 2. Does anybody have any thoughts (positive or negative) or experiences with these batteries? 3. Does anybody have any technical information (like a voltage/SOC curve or anything else) for these batteries? I will be fixing the other things in his system, but when he asks what I think about his battery bank, I don't know what to tell him at this point. He also has no idea how to tell how full his batteries are, and since it doesn't seem like his batteries have any kind of readout or anything, I'm not sure what to tell him on that either. If I could find a Voltage/SOC curve or a voltage/SOC conversion table, that would help on that front. Thank-you, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) (801) 631-5584 (Cell) (preferable contact number) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_4362.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 206083 bytes Desc: IMG_4362.jpg URL: From roberto.kruse at sercsa.com Mon Mar 4 08:50:45 2019 From: roberto.kruse at sercsa.com (Roberto Kruse) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 07:50:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DKD Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kienan. I am not familiar with these particular batteries but I have some experience with LFP. Since there are no com wires from battery to battery, it seems that they have an internal BMS. In this case, I would say that these batteries cannot be connected in series. From what I have seen, if you want a 48V battery bank with LFP, you have to order the batteries at this rated voltage from the beginning. You can connect several in parallel. Regards, Roberto Kruse El lun., 4 mar. 2019 a las 7:23, Kienan Maxfield () escribió: > Hello all, > > I just got back from looking at an off-grid system that is only about 4 > months old or so, and it has several problems. I have specialized in > off-grid for 8 years, so most of the problems will be easy for me, but > there's just one thing that is a bit perplexing and I'm hoping someone > might have some advice. > > The system was "designed" by some retailer in Texas (I don't know who) and > the home-owner found some local installer to put it together for him (they > already charged a ridiculous price and they won't come back). The battery > is a big bank of DKD LiFePO4 batteries, each one says 100 Ah @ 12.8V. They > are in series sets of 4 for 48V. I think there were 5 strings (500 ah > total). There are no com wires from battery to battery or anything like > that (nor did I find anywhere for com ports). I have not yet been > successful in finding any information about these batteries online. I'm not > that familiar with this type of battery and I'm hoping that some of you > might have some info/insight on a couple of questions about this situation. > Here's a picture of one of the batteries, > > > > > 1. The biggest question is if this configuration is okay. I'm not > familiar with this type of batteries, but I saw at least one brand that > said not to put their batteries in series. They said that (at least with > their brand) if you needed a 48V battery, you couldn't use (4) 12V > batteries. > 2. Does anybody have any thoughts (positive or negative) or > experiences with these batteries? > 3. Does anybody have any technical information (like a voltage/SOC > curve or anything else) for these batteries? > > I will be fixing the other things in his system, but when he asks what I > think about his battery bank, I don't know what to tell him at this point. > He also has no idea how to tell how full his batteries are, and since it > doesn't seem like his batteries have any kind of readout or anything, I'm > not sure what to tell him on that either. If I could find a Voltage/SOC > curve or a voltage/SOC conversion table, that would help on that front. > > Thank-you, > Kienan > > > *Maxfield Solar* > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* > * (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) (801) 631-5584 (Cell) (preferable contact > number) * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Ing Roberto Kruse Font* | *SERC – Costa Rica*| *roberto.kruse at sercsa.com * Tel (506)2273-4545 | Fax (506)2273-1010 | www.energiasolar.c r [image: cid:X.MA2.1244648096 at aol.com]*Por nuestro Planeta…**,* promueva la información digital. ------------------------------ Este mensaje es para el uso de la persona/entidad a la cual está dirigido. Este mensaje puede contener información confidencial que no debe ser revelada. Si le ha llegado por error, la distribución o copia del mismo,o la diseminación de la información aquí contenida, está estrictamente prohibida. Si usted ha recibido este mensaje por equivocación, por favor destrúyalo, o devuélvalo a quién se lo envió. Gracias. ----- This message is intended for the use of the individual/entity to whom it is addressed. This message may contain privileged information exempt from disclosure. If you are not the addressee, distribution or copying of this message, or dissemination of the information contained herein, is strictly prohibited. If you should receive this message in error, please destroy it, or return to sender. Thank You. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_4362.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 206083 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 965 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Mon Mar 4 09:19:47 2019 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 09:19:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DKD Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Battle Born seems somewhat similar (internal BMS) - who knows how many different labels get slapped on batteries coming out of the same factory. Their manual does say you can do series connections up to 48 Vdc. Brian > On Mar 4, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Roberto Kruse wrote: > > Hi Kienan. > > I am not familiar with these particular batteries but I have some experience with LFP. > Since there are no com wires from battery to battery, it seems that they have an internal BMS. > In this case, I would say that these batteries cannot be connected in series. From what I have seen, if you want a 48V battery bank with LFP, you have to order the batteries at this rated voltage from the beginning. You can connect several in parallel. > > Regards, > Roberto Kruse > >> El lun., 4 mar. 2019 a las 7:23, Kienan Maxfield () escribió: >> Hello all, >> >> I just got back from looking at an off-grid system that is only about 4 months old or so, and it has several problems. I have specialized in off-grid for 8 years, so most of the problems will be easy for me, but there's just one thing that is a bit perplexing and I'm hoping someone might have some advice. >> >> The system was "designed" by some retailer in Texas (I don't know who) and the home-owner found some local installer to put it together for him (they already charged a ridiculous price and they won't come back). The battery is a big bank of DKD LiFePO4 batteries, each one says 100 Ah @ 12.8V. They are in series sets of 4 for 48V. I think there were 5 strings (500 ah total). There are no com wires from battery to battery or anything like that (nor did I find anywhere for com ports). I have not yet been successful in finding any information about these batteries online. I'm not that familiar with this type of battery and I'm hoping that some of you might have some info/insight on a couple of questions about this situation. Here's a picture of one of the batteries, >> >> >> >> The biggest question is if this configuration is okay. I'm not familiar with this type of batteries, but I saw at least one brand that said not to put their batteries in series. They said that (at least with their brand) if you needed a 48V battery, you couldn't use (4) 12V batteries. >> Does anybody have any thoughts (positive or negative) or experiences with these batteries? >> Does anybody have any technical information (like a voltage/SOC curve or anything else) for these batteries? >> I will be fixing the other things in his system, but when he asks what I think about his battery bank, I don't know what to tell him at this point. He also has no idea how to tell how full his batteries are, and since it doesn't seem like his batteries have any kind of readout or anything, I'm not sure what to tell him on that either. If I could find a Voltage/SOC curve or a voltage/SOC conversion table, that would help on that front. >> >> Thank-you, >> Kienan >> >> >> Maxfield Solar >> maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com >> (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) >> (801) 631-5584 (Cell) (preferable contact number) >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > > > Ing Roberto Kruse Font | SERC – Costa Rica| roberto.kruse at sercsa.com > Tel (506)2273-4545 | Fax (506)2273-1010 | www.energiasolar.cr > Por nuestro Planeta…, promueva la información digital. > Este mensaje es para el uso de la persona/entidad a la cual está dirigido. Este mensaje puede contener información confidencial que no debe ser revelada. Si le ha llegado por error, la distribución o copia del mismo,o la diseminación de la información aquí contenida, está estrictamente prohibida. Si usted ha recibido este mensaje por equivocación, por favor destrúyalo, o devuélvalo a quién se lo envió. Gracias. ----- This message is intended for the use of the individual/entity to whom it is addressed. This message may contain privileged information exempt from disclosure. If you are not the addressee, distribution or copying of this message, or dissemination of the information contained herein, is strictly prohibited. If you should receive this message in error, please destroy it, or return to sender. Thank You. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 10:55:41 2019 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 08:55:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DKD Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kienan - DKD is a PV installation company in Texas. Looks to me they had a Chinese battery manufacturer put a custom sticker on the ones they sold. I would google the battery specs and dimensions and find something similar from China where you might be able to get specs. The lack of BMS would worry me very much. Dan Fink Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP PV Associate Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com 970-672-4342 On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kienan Maxfield wrote: > Hello all, > > I just got back from looking at an off-grid system that is only about 4 > months old or so, and it has several problems. I have specialized in > off-grid for 8 years, so most of the problems will be easy for me, but > there's just one thing that is a bit perplexing and I'm hoping someone > might have some advice. > > The system was "designed" by some retailer in Texas (I don't know who) and > the home-owner found some local installer to put it together for him (they > already charged a ridiculous price and they won't come back). The battery > is a big bank of DKD LiFePO4 batteries, each one says 100 Ah @ 12.8V. They > are in series sets of 4 for 48V. I think there were 5 strings (500 ah > total). There are no com wires from battery to battery or anything like > that (nor did I find anywhere for com ports). I have not yet been > successful in finding any information about these batteries online. I'm not > that familiar with this type of battery and I'm hoping that some of you > might have some info/insight on a couple of questions about this situation. > Here's a picture of one of the batteries, > > > > > 1. The biggest question is if this configuration is okay. I'm not > familiar with this type of batteries, but I saw at least one brand that > said not to put their batteries in series. They said that (at least with > their brand) if you needed a 48V battery, you couldn't use (4) 12V > batteries. > 2. Does anybody have any thoughts (positive or negative) or > experiences with these batteries? > 3. Does anybody have any technical information (like a voltage/SOC > curve or anything else) for these batteries? > > I will be fixing the other things in his system, but when he asks what I > think about his battery bank, I don't know what to tell him at this point. > He also has no idea how to tell how full his batteries are, and since it > doesn't seem like his batteries have any kind of readout or anything, I'm > not sure what to tell him on that either. If I could find a Voltage/SOC > curve or a voltage/SOC conversion table, that would help on that front. > > Thank-you, > Kienan > > > *Maxfield Solar* > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* > * (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) (801) 631-5584 (Cell) (preferable contact > number) * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_4362.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 206083 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 10:49:25 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 07:49:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DKD Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi kienan, There is no guarantee that they have a BMS in them, not all lithium do. A simple test is to take them up carefully to a higher voltage, but not too high, to see if they turn off. As to info about them I’d want to know. Chemistry ( would be good to know if they are capable of catching on fire) Cycle life Just sucks seeing people getting screwed. Jay > On Mar 4, 2019, at 5:23 AM, Kienan Maxfield wrote: > > Hello all, > > I just got back from looking at an off-grid system that is only about 4 months old or so, and it has several problems. I have specialized in off-grid for 8 years, so most of the problems will be easy for me, but there's just one thing that is a bit perplexing and I'm hoping someone might have some advice. > > The system was "designed" by some retailer in Texas (I don't know who) and the home-owner found some local installer to put it together for him (they already charged a ridiculous price and they won't come back). The battery is a big bank of DKD LiFePO4 batteries, each one says 100 Ah @ 12.8V. They are in series sets of 4 for 48V. I think there were 5 strings (500 ah total). There are no com wires from battery to battery or anything like that (nor did I find anywhere for com ports). I have not yet been successful in finding any information about these batteries online. I'm not that familiar with this type of battery and I'm hoping that some of you might have some info/insight on a couple of questions about this situation. Here's a picture of one of the batteries, > > > > The biggest question is if this configuration is okay. I'm not familiar with this type of batteries, but I saw at least one brand that said not to put their batteries in series. They said that (at least with their brand) if you needed a 48V battery, you couldn't use (4) 12V batteries. > Does anybody have any thoughts (positive or negative) or experiences with these batteries? > Does anybody have any technical information (like a voltage/SOC curve or anything else) for these batteries? > I will be fixing the other things in his system, but when he asks what I think about his battery bank, I don't know what to tell him at this point. He also has no idea how to tell how full his batteries are, and since it doesn't seem like his batteries have any kind of readout or anything, I'm not sure what to tell him on that either. If I could find a Voltage/SOC curve or a voltage/SOC conversion table, that would help on that front. > > Thank-you, > Kienan > > > Maxfield Solar > maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com > (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) > (801) 631-5584 (Cell) (preferable contact number) > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Mar 4 12:45:03 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2019 12:45:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recording Volt Meter Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone know of a source for a reliable, yet inexpensive recording volt meter? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 13:03:53 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 12:03:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DKD Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I am not familiar with this battery, but have some frustrating experiences with LiFe PO4 batteries. Yes, you can series batteries without COM connections if they have internal BMS. Here is how: Absolutely must be of same capacity and voltage if connected in series. You said 12 volt, X kWh. These batteries must then be in series with no taps or parallel batteries. (you had mentioned maybe a 5 battery, it can not be used in the string of 48 volts cannot be paralleled with any other battery) The internal BMS is supposed to protect from overcharge and over discharge. When one of the cells (buddy set) reaches full charge the BMS stops the 'bulk' charge and bypasses the full charged cell (or buddy set) and allows a 'top balancing' current to continue to charge the remainder of cells (or buddy sets) at a slow rate. One example the charge rate of a few amps drops to 1 amp top balance current. The current must remain at this battery set top balance current until all sets of cells are at top charge voltage. This now assumes the charge controller (bulk charge controller) is not much higher voltage than the required top balance voltage. (another brand of 12-volt nom. LiFe battery has 14.1 as its top balance voltage) The charger should not be set at a much higher voltage as the BMS must bleed this current through internal resistors and will be damaged by excessive charge voltage. This is then 56.4 Volts for your series string of 4 batteries. The possibility of one battery being near discharge and others being mid charge can result in a much highr voltage in the full charge battery, thus the recommendation not to series batteries. However, I have had good luck with two 12 Volt nom. in series making a 24-volt battery set. What I would do. Take each battery and test voltage and record,. (LifeO cells are about 3.5 volts fully charged, so 4 cells in series are about 14 volts and discharged are 3.2 volts or 12.8 volts) Divide the resting voltage by 4 and that is your average cell charge state. If below about 12 Volts the battery may be damaged beyond repair, still try, however. If it is zero, the BMS may have shut down and a small charge may be necessary to reconnect. Connect each battery one at a time on your lab bench power supply. set charge voltage at 14.1 volts, or current limit C/4. (C=battery capacity in kWh/14.1= Amp hrs. then divide by 4, Ah/4= bench charger current limit.) Let the charger charge until a semi-stable current is reached at 14.1 volts. (This charge current is the top balance current) Keep it at this charge voltage, (I have found on another battery this to be about 1 amp.) Assuming the initial imbalance to be on the individual batteries (initial bat voltage-12.0) / (14.1 -12) = State of charge. Then watch the charge time until the charge rate drops to the stable state. This time x C/4 current is the charge deficit of the highest state cell. assume no other cell is more than 2x this deficit and charge until you have supplied this deficit at the stable charge rate. (this assumes the lowest is no more than doubled the DoD of the best cell.) After charging all batteries let stand for the temperature to stabilize as they will warm during charge. After a rest period of at least an hour measure the batteries voltages. They should all be the same if not you may have permanently damaged batteries. you could try again to balance charge at 14.1 but do not get your hopes up. When the cells are this far apart one cell is vey poor. On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 7:23 AM Kienan Maxfield wrote: > Hello all, > > I just got back from looking at an off-grid system that is only about 4 > months old or so, and it has several problems. I have specialized in > off-grid for 8 years, so most of the problems will be easy for me, but > there's just one thing that is a bit perplexing and I'm hoping someone > might have some advice. > > The system was "designed" by some retailer in Texas (I don't know who) and > the home-owner found some local installer to put it together for him (they > already charged a ridiculous price and they won't come back). The battery > is a big bank of DKD LiFePO4 batteries, each one says 100 Ah @ 12.8V. They > are in series sets of 4 for 48V. I think there were 5 strings (500 ah > total). There are no com wires from battery to battery or anything like > that (nor did I find anywhere for com ports). I have not yet been > successful in finding any information about these batteries online. I'm not > that familiar with this type of battery and I'm hoping that some of you > might have some info/insight on a couple of questions about this situation. > Here's a picture of one of the batteries, > > > > > 1. The biggest question is if this configuration is okay. I'm not > familiar with this type of batteries, but I saw at least one brand that > said not to put their batteries in series. They said that (at least with > their brand) if you needed a 48V battery, you couldn't use (4) 12V > batteries. > 2. Does anybody have any thoughts (positive or negative) or > experiences with these batteries? > 3. Does anybody have any technical information (like a voltage/SOC > curve or anything else) for these batteries? > > I will be fixing the other things in his system, but when he asks what I > think about his battery bank, I don't know what to tell him at this point. > He also has no idea how to tell how full his batteries are, and since it > doesn't seem like his batteries have any kind of readout or anything, I'm > not sure what to tell him on that either. If I could find a Voltage/SOC > curve or a voltage/SOC conversion table, that would help on that front. > > Thank-you, > Kienan > > > *Maxfield Solar* > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* > * (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) (801) 631-5584 (Cell) (preferable contact > number) * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_4362.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 206083 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 13:11:03 2019 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 13:11:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recording Volt Meter In-Reply-To: <20190304174523.1DFD01067A2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20190304174523.1DFD01067A2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: The Hioki meter amazes me. It can measure up to 1500VDC, and bluetooth communications to a really simple to use phone app that records single or multiple channels up to 24 hrs, and exports to pdf, it's totally intuitive to use. See pg 34 in the manual. https://www.hioki.com/file/cmw/hdInstructionManual/93535/pdf/?action=browser https://www.amazon.com/Hioki-True-RMS-Frequency-Resistance-Bluetooth/dp/B01CO6I5NG Rebekah On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 12:45 PM Drake wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone know of a source for a reliable, yet inexpensive recording > volt meter? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Mar 4 12:59:56 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2019 09:59:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recording Volt Meter In-Reply-To: <20190304174521.56962104858@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20190304174521.56962104858@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <9c3de3be835a26354c46dea4219bf9e0@127.0.0.1> What do you want to record? True RMS, 3 phase, Accuracy? Calibrated equipment? How long will you log? days, weeks, months? Are you looking for transients? I use to work for these guys when they were HP and they still are in Santa Rosa CA. I like their gear out of the box with full calibration. https://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-2832429/u1230-series-35-digit-handheld-multimeters?nid=-32047.0&cc=US border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%">Hello Wrenches, Does anyone know of a source for a reliable, yet inexpensive recording volt meter? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ [3] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Mon Mar 4 13:21:45 2019 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 10:21:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optics-RE In-Reply-To: <5f7de61a74c956ff2f1de567101edd37@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f7de61a74c956ff2f1de567101edd37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <030b01d4d2b7$206c3ec0$6144bc40$@greenwired.com> I did it last week and it seems to be only logged in OpticsRE not that Mate3 itself. Don’t know if the picture shows up but on the optics RE event history it will show the online user(depicted as jadesteel) and the on-site(mate3 user) on the event history. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 F: 707-923-2077 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2019 1:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics-RE Jay: I do not believe programming changes are logged anywhere in Optics or locally. However you can program Optics to notify you if a programming change occurs. You can see that changes were made but not what those changes are. See below for an excerpt of an email alert I received on one of our systems. I might add that none of these changes are real. These are all phantom changes-- which is an ongoing bug with the Optics System. These notifications will also inform you if actual changes are made, but again not what was changed. This bug makes it hard to trust these notifications. If you are worried about unauthorized persons making changes, your best practice is to set an installer password and limit access. Event Description Timestamp Configuration changes are made remotely via OPTICS 02/21/2019 07:31 Configuration changes are made locally via MATE3/AXS Port 02/21/2019 07:32 Configuration changes are made remotely via OPTICS 02/21/2019 07:33 Configuration changes are made remotely via OPTICS 02/21/2019 07:33 Configuration changes are made locally via MATE3/AXS Port 02/21/2019 07:33 Kienan: You can save and restore configurations while on site. You may know this and I may be misunderstanding your question—the function is pretty visible on the Mate3 or 3s. You save the configuration files to SD card and you can copy them from the card to a computer for record keeping or later analysis. Frequently saving this file is how you create a log of programming changes. There is a way you can parse the settings into a spreadsheet. Unfortunately I do not believe saving configuration files can be automated or done remotely. I hope this information helps. William Miller PS: I have records of an Outback FX system changing its own settings, even changing stacking autonomously (shutting down the system). This is another reason I have a love/hate relationship with Outback. Wm -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kienan Maxfield Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2019 7:36 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics-RE No, but it would be a great idea. Another feature that would be nice would be an option to export/import complete configurations. -Kienan > On Mar 2, 2019, at 10:04 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all, > > Does optics RE have a history of changes made to setpoints/settings? > > I’m pretty sure not, but wanted to check, > > Thx > > Jay > > PS. And if not might be a good thing to add? > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org &data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb408cd7513af43a46fe008d69f95c82a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636871862983916124&sdata=Roz%2BSTN12lQIWn%2BtbQXyzwT5grg1nhRC3adf5FC7SiA%3D&reserved=0 > > List-Archive: https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html &data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb408cd7513af43a46fe008d69f95c82a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636871862983926141&sdata=jzPKXgT6zbQ%2BVm%2BLUQc62p6omhOuqs3EdYa1tgW9JFs%3D&reserved=0 > > List rules & etiquette: > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm &data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb408cd7513af43a46fe008d69f95c82a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636871862983926141&sdata=gzOmbFJL6CfNH6%2BKGJdl23Ohn7OndgU1Kp%2BR1iWSTWc%3D&reserved=0 > > Check out or update participant bios: > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.members.re-wrenches.org &data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb408cd7513af43a46fe008d69f95c82a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636871862983926141&sdata=evKPJqVYBw4fFGT4ViGnkqlXJfWkj3AEViyfWuZsbD4%3D&reserved=0 > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 16706 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Mon Mar 4 13:26:56 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 18:26:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DKD Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Oh, interesting. Thanks, Dan, that makes sense. If they don't have an internal BMS, that would be very worrisome. Jay, that sounds like an intriguing idea. So if you're applying a higher voltage, how would you know if it shuts off? The chemistry is LiFePO4, which is supposed to be the safest lithium chemistry. That being said, I've heard that it's still possible for them to start on fire without a BMS, I don't know on that one. As far as cycle life, I've heard that there are only two companies that are manufacturing those cells. If that were true, then these should have the same cycle life as any other battery using the Chinese LiFePO4 cells (such as Iron Edison) unless the BMS allows the cells to get damaged. "Just sucks seeing people getting screwed." - That's exactly it. Now that he's spent all of this money, I'm hesitant to tell him anything. I don't know if it's a safe setup and I should just tell him to try to use them until they quit working and hope for the best, or if I need to tell him that they may be an expensive hazard in his basement. I can tell him that they're illegal because they aren't "marked and listed," but the inspectors already signed off on it so the final call is up to him. Darryl, Sorry, I meant 5 banks of batteries at 4 batteries each (so a total of 500 Ah @48V total). Thanks for the advice, it makes a lot of sense. I'll try to do some testing. Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) (801) 631-5584 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Mar 4 15:19:13 2019 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 13:19:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DKD Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <480B4494-A66F-4035-9898-EF094EEC631C@starlightsolar.com> Kienan, First, my advice is be sure to have a release of liability signed by the owner before you start working on this system. Improperly treated or poorly designed Li batteries can be dangerous. A major problem with the upswing of Li batteries being imported is poorly designed and undocumented BMS's. There are MANY startup Li companies (over 2000 on www.madeinchina.com) that have no problem exaggerating themselves and their products. I am flooded with emails from these companies. This type of battery chemistry, LiFePO4 or LFP, is the safest cell chemistry of Li batteries on the market but that won’t matter as much if the BMS does not have all appropriate protections. It is highly unlikely that there is no BMS, but possible. Note that not all drop-in type Li batteries can be used series. The BMS must be designed for series connection. It is safe to conduct the test that Jay recommended. First understand that in order to use these 12 volt packs in series, all battery packs must be individually fully charged before series connection is made so the SoC of each pack is identical. If you test just one battery pack, it must be returned to the same SoC as all other batteries. Therefore for testing, I recommend charging the entire battery pack to 58.4V. Disconnect the battery bank pull one battery and apply about 16 volts (this is safe for testing any LFP chemistry). If the battery reaches 16V and has not turned off, these batteries should not be used. I recently was at a show and saw a 12 volt LFP battery with the warning on the label: DO NOT CHARGE BELOW FREEZING. The sales rep was clueless why and tried to tell me it really did not really matter. It matters! Lithium plating is a hazardous degradation mechanism that happens primarily when charging a cell below 32°. This will typically accelerate dendrite formation. Dendrite growth can tear the separator and cause internal short circuit at any time in the future of the battery. This can cause spontaneous combustion. If the DKD battery can be charged below freezing or does not have low and high voltage disconnect, it may be a dangerous battery without external control. Did you get that release form yet? Just FYI about us, since 2013 we have designed and sold Li battery power systems now numbering hundreds of customers. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:23 AM, Kienan Maxfield wrote: Hello all, I just got back from looking at an off-grid system that is only about 4 months old or so, and it has several problems. I have specialized in off-grid for 8 years, so most of the problems will be easy for me, but there's just one thing that is a bit perplexing and I'm hoping someone might have some advice. The system was "designed" by some retailer in Texas (I don't know who) and the home-owner found some local installer to put it together for him (they already charged a ridiculous price and they won't come back). The battery is a big bank of DKD LiFePO4 batteries, each one says 100 Ah @ 12.8V. They are in series sets of 4 for 48V. I think there were 5 strings (500 ah total). There are no com wires from battery to battery or anything like that (nor did I find anywhere for com ports). I have not yet been successful in finding any information about these batteries online. I'm not that familiar with this type of battery and I'm hoping that some of you might have some info/insight on a couple of questions about this situation. Here's a picture of one of the batteries, The biggest question is if this configuration is okay. I'm not familiar with this type of batteries, but I saw at least one brand that said not to put their batteries in series. They said that (at least with their brand) if you needed a 48V battery, you couldn't use (4) 12V batteries. Does anybody have any thoughts (positive or negative) or experiences with these batteries? Does anybody have any technical information (like a voltage/SOC curve or anything else) for these batteries? I will be fixing the other things in his system, but when he asks what I think about his battery bank, I don't know what to tell him at this point. He also has no idea how to tell how full his batteries are, and since it doesn't seem like his batteries have any kind of readout or anything, I'm not sure what to tell him on that either. If I could find a Voltage/SOC curve or a voltage/SOC conversion table, that would help on that front. Thank-you, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) (801) 631-5584 (Cell) (preferable contact number) www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Mar 4 15:30:53 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 13:30:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recording Volt Meter In-Reply-To: References: <20190304174523.1DFD01067A2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <633d1777-bc88-a3aa-49c3-2b48f886b7d0@solarray.com> Always count on Rebekah to point us to cool new stuff.  That looks great, good price, Blue Tooth and  I've been in the market for a better DC clamp on meter.  It says you can look at the waveform through the Blue tooth in real time.  Have you used this?  Can you see distortions in a sinewave, for instance the steps in a "sine" wave inverter?  Having some Oscilloscope functionality would really make this a deal. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/4/19 11:11 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > The Hioki meter amazes me. It can measure up to 1500VDC, and bluetooth > communications to a really simple to use phone app that records single > or multiple channels up to 24 hrs, and exports to pdf, it's totally > intuitive to use. > See pg 34 in the manual. > > https://www.hioki.com/file/cmw/hdInstructionManual/93535/pdf/?action=browser > https://www.amazon.com/Hioki-True-RMS-Frequency-Resistance-Bluetooth/dp/B01CO6I5NG > > Rebekah > > > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 12:45 PM Drake > > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone know of a source for a reliable, yet inexpensive > recording volt meter? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Mon Mar 4 15:58:37 2019 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 12:58:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recording Volt Meter In-Reply-To: <633d1777-bc88-a3aa-49c3-2b48f886b7d0@solarray.com> References: <20190304174523.1DFD01067A2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <633d1777-bc88-a3aa-49c3-2b48f886b7d0@solarray.com> Message-ID: I have used the Hioki for data logging. It's a super awesome feature for a multi meter, and I agree with Rebekah that it's intuitive and easy, but it hardly replaces a serious data-logging power meter. Limitations include the following: - must leave your phone (or whatever Bluetooth device) sitting next to the Hioki for the duration of recording - 24 hour max recording - only one phase/leg at a time - either current or voltage but not both at the same time (I haven't needed the 'scope function yet, but I did spend five minutes trying to get it to trigger just to see how it worked, and I couldn't figure it out. So that part might not be as easy and intuitive as the regular voltage logging function.) Blake On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 12:30 PM Ray wrote: > Always count on Rebekah to point us to cool new stuff. That looks great, > good price, Blue Tooth and I've been in the market for a better DC clamp > on meter. It says you can look at the waveform through the Blue tooth in > real time. Have you used this? Can you see distortions in a sinewave, for > instance the steps in a "sine" wave inverter? Having some Oscilloscope > functionality would really make this a deal. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/4/19 11:11 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > > The Hioki meter amazes me. It can measure up to 1500VDC, and bluetooth > communications to a really simple to use phone app that records single or > multiple channels up to 24 hrs, and exports to pdf, it's totally intuitive > to use. > See pg 34 in the manual. > > > https://www.hioki.com/file/cmw/hdInstructionManual/93535/pdf/?action=browser > > https://www.amazon.com/Hioki-True-RMS-Frequency-Resistance-Bluetooth/dp/B01CO6I5NG > > Rebekah > > > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 12:45 PM Drake < > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Does anyone know of a source for a reliable, yet inexpensive recording >> volt meter? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> >> >> >> >> >> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified >> Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* 510.845.2997 x128 Follow us on Facebook , LinkedIn or our website . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Mon Mar 4 16:01:02 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 11:01:02 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Comparing storage options: Tesla, sonnen, LG Chem, Pika Message-ID: <02a701d4d2cd$612ffad0$238ff070$@com> A useful, quick comparison of the currently available major players in residential energy storage for grid-tie. Tesla Powerwall tesla powerwall battery Capacity: 13.5 kilowatt-hours usable; whole house back-up capable with 200A utility service or less Warranty: 10 years, 70% capacity The Tesla Powerwall is an energy storage industry leader for a few reasons. First and foremost, the Powerwall is the battery that brought energy storage into the mainstream for many homeowners. Tesla, already well known for its innovative electric cars, announced the first-generation Powerwall in 2015, and overhauled the “Powerwall 2.0” in 2016. The Powerwall is a lithium ion battery with a similar chemistry to the batteries used in Tesla vehicles. It is designed for integration with a solar panel system, but can also be used solely for home backup power. The second-generation Tesla Powerwall also offers one of the best ratios of cost to capacity of any product available in the United States. One Powerwall can store 13.5 kWh – enough to power essential appliances for a full 24 hours – and comes with an integrated inverter. The battery cells within the Powerwall are manufactured by Panasonic within the Gigafactory in Nevada. The Powerwall comes with a 10-year warranty that assumes your battery is used for daily charging and draining. As part of their warranty, Tesla offers a minimum guaranteed capacity. They ensure that the Powerwall will sustain at least 70 percent of its capacity over the course of its warranty period. sonnen eco (now wholly owned by Royal Dutch Shell) cid:image003.png at 01D4CD10.013F3F40 Capacity: starts at 4 kWhs; not whole house back-up capable Warranty: 10 years, 70% capacity The sonnen eco is a 4 kWh+ home battery manufactured by sonnenBatterie, an energy storage company based in Germany. The eco has been available in the U.S. since 2017 through the company’s installer network. The eco is a lithium ferrous phosphate battery that is designed for integration with a solar panel system. It also comes with an integrated inverter. One of the main ways that sonnen distinguishes the eco from other solar batteries on the market is through its self-learning software, which can help homes with solar panel systems connected to the grid increase their solar self-consumption and manage time-of-use electricity rates. Like Tesla, sonnen also offers a minimum guaranteed capacity. They ensure that the eco will maintain at least 70 percent of its storage capacity for its first 10 years. LG Chem RESU10H cid:image007.png at 01D4CD10.013F3F40 Capacity: 8.8 kWh usable; not whole back-up capable Warranty: 10 years, 60% capacity Another major player in the worldwide energy storage market is leading electronics manufacturer LG, based in South Korea. Their RESU battery is one of the more popular options for solar-plus-storage systems in Australia and Europe. The RESU is a lithium ion battery. The only battery option currently sold in the U.S. is RESU10H, which has a usable capacity of 8.8 kWh. It comes with a 10-year warranty that offers a minimum guaranteed capacity of 60 percent. Pika Energy Harbor Smart Battery cid:image009.png at 01D4CD10.013F3F40 Capacity: 8.6, 11.4, 14.3, 17.1 kWh usable; whole house back-up capable up to 200A using a Generac automatic transfer switch Warranty: 10 years The Harbor Smart Battery comes from Pika Energy, an inverter manufacturer that has recently entered the energy storage space. Unlike some other home batteries, the Harbor Smart Battery is specifically intended to be installed alongside a solar panel system and can be used for both on-site consumption of stored solar energy and grid services like demand response. The Harbor Smart Battery uses a Panasonic-manufactured lithium ion battery cells and comes paired with a Pika Energy Island inverter, which can be used for both on-grid and off-grid home energy storage. The Harbor is backed by a 10 year Panasonic warranty. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.png Type: image/png Size: 89949 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.png Type: image/png Size: 61488 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 17680 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 60141 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 4 18:32:52 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 17:32:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recording Volt Meter In-Reply-To: <20190304174522.7D05E10649A@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20190304174522.7D05E10649A@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: almost but mine works fine. I use an Egauge which has 4 voltage inputs and 15 current inputs. I go to sites and set up a recording that can do AC or DC voltages and currents. I use this to analyze system and commercial and residential energy & power. It can record one a 1-second basis or a one-minute or 5-min bases for years. . On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 11:45 AM Drake wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone know of a source for a reliable, yet inexpensive recording > volt meter? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Mar 4 20:16:38 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 17:16:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Comparing storage options: Tesla, sonnen, LG Chem, Pika In-Reply-To: <02a701d4d2cd$612ffad0$238ff070$@com> References: <02a701d4d2cd$612ffad0$238ff070$@com> Message-ID: <9afb822fc01375dd7f28d29e63942d46@mail.gmail.com> Marco: Thanks for the primer. A few questions: 1. I heard that the LG factory had shut down due to high failure rates of the product. Any word on that? 2. You say the Powerwall has “one of the best ratios of cost to capacity.” I ran a few numbers: For the Tesla Powerwall: For the MK 8L16 battery: It looks like the Powerwall has a much higher cost per watt hour than a garden variety flooded lead acid battery. Could this be true? 3. Does the $7,000 include electronics for this higher cost? 4. Is the Powerwall suitable for standalone systems? 5. What kind of inverter will work with the Powerwall? 6. Will this inverter integrate with a generator? a. Does it have dual AC inputs? b. Does it have built in transfer switching? 7. How much energy does the cooling system consume? Is this taken into account in the rating? 8. Can independent contractors access Powerwall batteries or do you have to have some kind of affiliation with Tesla? Thanks in advance for the information. William Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf *Sent:* Monday, March 4, 2019 1:01 PM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Comparing storage options: Tesla, sonnen, LG Chem, Pika A useful, quick comparison of the currently available major players in residential energy storage for grid-tie. Tesla Powerwall [image: tesla powerwall battery] *Capacity: *13.5 kilowatt-hours usable; whole house back-up capable with 200A utility service or less *Warranty: *10 years, 70% capacity The Tesla Powerwall is an energy storage industry leader for a few reasons. First and foremost, the Powerwall is the battery that brought energy storage into the mainstream for many homeowners. Tesla, already well known for its innovative electric cars, announced the first-generation Powerwall in 2015, and overhauled the “Powerwall 2.0” in 2016. The Powerwall is a lithium ion battery with a similar chemistry to the batteries used in Tesla vehicles. It is designed for integration with a solar panel system, but can also be used solely for home backup power. The second-generation Tesla Powerwall also offers one of the best ratios of cost to capacity of any product available in the United States. One Powerwall can store 13.5 kWh – enough to power essential appliances for a full 24 hours – and comes with an integrated inverter. The battery cells within the Powerwall are manufactured by Panasonic within the Gigafactory in Nevada. The Powerwall comes with a 10-year warranty that assumes your battery is used for daily charging and draining. As part of their warranty, Tesla offers a minimum guaranteed capacity. They ensure that the Powerwall will sustain at least 70 percent of its capacity over the course of its warranty period. sonnen eco (now wholly owned by Royal Dutch Shell) *[image: cid:image003.png at 01D4CD10.013F3F40]* *Capacity: *starts at 4 kWhs; not whole house back-up capable *Warranty: *10 years, 70% capacity The sonnen *eco* is a 4 kWh+ home battery manufactured by sonnenBatterie, an energy storage company based in Germany. The *eco* has been available in the U.S. since 2017 through the company’s installer network. The *eco* is a lithium ferrous phosphate battery that is designed for integration with a solar panel system. It also comes with an integrated inverter. One of the main ways that sonnen distinguishes the *eco* from other solar batteries on the market is through its self-learning software, which can help homes with solar panel systems connected to the grid increase their solar self-consumption and manage time-of-use electricity rates. Like Tesla, sonnen also offers a minimum guaranteed capacity. They ensure that the *eco* will maintain at least 70 percent of its storage capacity for its first 10 years. LG Chem RESU10H *[image: cid:image007.png at 01D4CD10.013F3F40]* *Capacity*: 8.8 kWh usable; not whole back-up capable *Warranty*: 10 years, 60% capacity Another major player in the worldwide energy storage market is leading electronics manufacturer LG, based in South Korea. Their RESU battery is one of the more popular options for solar-plus-storage systems in Australia and Europe. The RESU is a lithium ion battery. The only battery option currently sold in the U.S. is RESU10H, which has a usable capacity of 8.8 kWh. It comes with a 10-year warranty that offers a minimum guaranteed capacity of 60 percent. Pika Energy Harbor Smart Battery *[image: cid:image009.png at 01D4CD10.013F3F40]* *Capacity*: 8.6, 11.4, 14.3, 17.1 kWh usable; whole house back-up capable up to 200A using a Generac automatic transfer switch *Warranty*: 10 years The Harbor Smart Battery comes from Pika Energy, an inverter manufacturer that has recently entered the energy storage space. Unlike some other home batteries, the Harbor Smart Battery is specifically intended to be installed alongside a solar panel system and can be used for both on-site consumption of stored solar energy and grid services like demand response. The Harbor Smart Battery uses a Panasonic-manufactured lithium ion battery cells and comes paired with a Pika Energy Island inverter, which can be used for both on-grid and off-grid home energy storage. The Harbor is backed by a 10 year Panasonic warranty. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 17680 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 60141 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 61488 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: oledata.mso Type: application/octet-stream Size: 15797 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Mar 5 00:09:00 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 19:09:00 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Comparing storage options: Tesla, sonnen, LG Chem, Pika In-Reply-To: <9afb822fc01375dd7f28d29e63942d46@mail.gmail.com> References: <02a701d4d2cd$612ffad0$238ff070$@com> <9afb822fc01375dd7f28d29e63942d46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <010601d4d311$8c64ad60$a52e0820$@com> Hi William, Please see my responses below. Note for what it’s worth, that I wasn’t the one who originally crafted the descriptions of these four storage products. I found it elsewhere, modified it a bit for accuracy and decided to share it with the Wrenches. I don’t claim that this list is at all comprehensive, choosing instead to look at four of the major players at present. Also, attached is the spec sheet on Powerwall. marco Marco: Thanks for the primer. A few questions: I heard that the LG factory had shut down due to high failure rates of the product. Any word on that? --I can’t comment on that as I’ve heard nothing to that effect. Anyone out there who’s been installing the RESU10H heard anything? You say the Powerwall has “one of the best ratios of cost to capacity.” I ran a few numbers: For the Tesla Powerwall: For the MK 8L16 battery: --What’s the number of rated cycles at 100 percent DOD for the MK 8L16? Comparing batteries without taking DOD limitations and cycles into account doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. It looks like the Powerwall has a much higher cost per watt hour than a garden variety flooded lead acid battery. Could this be true? --Note that the current AC Powerwall 2 (the first version of Powerwall was DC only) has an integrated 5 kW inverter. Does the $7,000 include electronics for this higher cost? Is the Powerwall suitable for standalone systems? --Powerwall is not officially sanctioned for 100 percent off-grid, stand-alone applications. What kind of inverter will work with the Powerwall? --Since Powerwall is AC, i.e., AC coupled, it should work with most other UL1741 inverters out there. At my house, for example, I have Power One micro inverters on my solar array. The diagrams on p. 2 of the spec sheet are helpful to understanding the system design options. Interestingly, if the grid goes down during a sunny day and my loads are all being met by solar AND my Powerwall is full and there’s nowhere for any additional solar production to go, Powerwall shifts the AC frequency of my home’s nano grid to 66 Hz which causes the PV inverters to shutdown because the power quality that they see is out of spec. This causes the Powerwall to discharge, thereby dropping its state of charge. Once the SOC reaches, say 95 percent, Powerwall shifts the frequency back to 60 Hz and my inverters come back on again. And this frequency up and down action can take place through the course of the daylight hours depending on loads and solar potential. Again, remember that this frequency shifting only takes place during grid outages. Will Powerwall integrate with a generator? --Not at present. Does it have dual AC inputs? --No at present. Does it have built in transfer switching? --Powerwall or Powerwalls must be accompanied by the Tesla Energy Gateway which acts as a smart transfer switch/disconnect in the event of a utility power outage. How much energy does the cooling system consume? Is this taken into account in the rating? --Don’t know the answer to that question. As far as the usable energy capacity as well as peak and constant output of the integrated inverter, I believe any power used for cooling is factored in. Can independent contractors access Powerwall batteries or do you have to have some kind of affiliation with Tesla? --Only Tesla Certified Installers have access to the Tesla Energy line of products. Thanks in advance for the information. William Miller From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Monday, March 4, 2019 1:01 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Comparing storage options: Tesla, sonnen, LG Chem, Pika A useful, quick comparison of the currently available major players in residential energy storage for grid-tie. Tesla Powerwall tesla powerwall battery Capacity: 13.5 kilowatt-hours usable; whole house back-up capable with 200A utility service or less Warranty: 10 years, 70% capacity The Tesla Powerwall is an energy storage industry leader for a few reasons. First and foremost, the Powerwall is the battery that brought energy storage into the mainstream for many homeowners. Tesla, already well known for its innovative electric cars, announced the first-generation Powerwall in 2015, and overhauled the “Powerwall 2.0” in 2016. The Powerwall is a lithium ion battery with a similar chemistry to the batteries used in Tesla vehicles. It is designed for integration with a solar panel system, but can also be used solely for home backup power. The second-generation Tesla Powerwall also offers one of the best ratios of cost to capacity of any product available in the United States. One Powerwall can store 13.5 kWh – enough to power essential appliances for a full 24 hours – and comes with an integrated inverter. The battery cells within the Powerwall are manufactured by Panasonic within the Gigafactory in Nevada. The Powerwall comes with a 10-year warranty that assumes your battery is used for daily charging and draining. As part of their warranty, Tesla offers a minimum guaranteed capacity. They ensure that the Powerwall will sustain at least 70 percent of its capacity over the course of its warranty period. sonnen eco (now wholly owned by Royal Dutch Shell) cid:image003.png at 01D4CD10.013F3F40 Capacity: starts at 4 kWhs; not whole house back-up capable Warranty: 10 years, 70% capacity The sonnen eco is a 4 kWh+ home battery manufactured by sonnenBatterie, an energy storage company based in Germany. The eco has been available in the U.S. since 2017 through the company’s installer network. The eco is a lithium ferrous phosphate battery that is designed for integration with a solar panel system. It also comes with an integrated inverter. One of the main ways that sonnen distinguishes the eco from other solar batteries on the market is through its self-learning software, which can help homes with solar panel systems connected to the grid increase their solar self-consumption and manage time-of-use electricity rates. Like Tesla, sonnen also offers a minimum guaranteed capacity. They ensure that the eco will maintain at least 70 percent of its storage capacity for its first 10 years. LG Chem RESU10H cid:image007.png at 01D4CD10.013F3F40 Capacity: 8.8 kWh usable; not whole back-up capable Warranty: 10 years, 60% capacity Another major player in the worldwide energy storage market is leading electronics manufacturer LG, based in South Korea. Their RESU battery is one of the more popular options for solar-plus-storage systems in Australia and Europe. The RESU is a lithium ion battery. The only battery option currently sold in the U.S. is RESU10H, which has a usable capacity of 8.8 kWh. It comes with a 10-year warranty that offers a minimum guaranteed capacity of 60 percent. Pika Energy Harbor Smart Battery cid:image009.png at 01D4CD10.013F3F40 Capacity: 8.6, 11.4, 14.3, 17.1 kWh usable; whole house back-up capable up to 200A using a Generac automatic transfer switch Warranty: 10 years The Harbor Smart Battery comes from Pika Energy, an inverter manufacturer that has recently entered the energy storage space. Unlike some other home batteries, the Harbor Smart Battery is specifically intended to be installed alongside a solar panel system and can be used for both on-site consumption of stored solar energy and grid services like demand response. The Harbor Smart Battery uses a Panasonic-manufactured lithium ion battery cells and comes paired with a Pika Energy Island inverter, which can be used for both on-grid and off-grid home energy storage. The Harbor is backed by a 10 year Panasonic warranty. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: Powerwall 2_AC_Datasheet 11-18.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 344217 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Mar 6 11:14:26 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2019 11:14:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recording Volt Meter In-Reply-To: References: <20190304174523.1DFD01067A2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hi Rebekah & Dave, That looks like a good meter; I think it should work fine. We are diagnosing a Stirling generator, that consumes wood pellets and produces electricity, heat and biochar. http://stirling-tech.com/biogen/ The machine connects to the grid or an inverter via AC coupling. It is currently AC coupled to an Outback VFX 3648 through an autotransformer to produce 240 V. All works well for up to 8 hours, and then it shuts down on a high voltage error. High voltage for it is around 264 V, and we have never seen the voltage reach that range. The plan is to put a recording volt meter on and see if line voltage does spike when the generator shuts down. Thanks, Drake At 01:11 PM 3/4/2019, you wrote: >The Hioki meter amazes me. It can measure up to >1500VDC, and bluetooth communications to a >really simple to use phone app that records >single or multiple channels up to 24 hrs, and >exports to pdf, it's totally intuitive to use. >See pg 34 in the manual. > >https://www.hioki.com/file/cmw/hdInstructionManual/93535/pdf/?action=browser >https://www.amazon.com/Hioki-True-RMS-Frequency-Resistance-Bluetooth/dp/B01CO6I5NG > >Rebekah > > >On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 12:45 PM Drake ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: >Hello Wrenches, > >Does anyone know of a source for a reliable, yet >inexpensive recording volt meter? > >Thank you, > >Drake > >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Mar 6 12:18:17 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2019 09:18:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recording Volt Meter In-Reply-To: <20190306161532.0E169105DCF@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20190304174523.1DFD01067A2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <20190306161532.0E169105DCF@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hi Drake, What a coincidence. Our town is in the late stages of building a 2.4 Mw Biomass plant to burn the 22 million dead ponderosa trees killed here by the bark beetle. Below is a link. I am not sure if Optics will log that, but I know the Schneider Configuration tool will log a reading on that voltage every second in an excel page. http://www.mariposabiomassproject.org/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 06 Mar 2019 11:14:26 -0500, Drake wrote: Hi Rebekah I think it should work fine. We are diagnosing a Stirling generator, that consumes wood pellets and produces electricity, heat and biochar. http://stirling-tech.com/biogen/ [3] The machine connects to the grid or an inverter via AC coupling. It is currently AC coupled to an Outback VFX 3648 through an autotransformer to produce 240 V. All works well for up to 8 hours, and then it shuts down on a high voltage error. High voltage for it is around 264 V, and we have never seen the voltage reach that range. The plan is to put a recording volt meter on and see if line voltage does spike when the generator shuts down. Thanks, Drake At 01:11 PM 3/4/2019, you wrote: The Hioki meter amazes me. It can measure up to 1500VDC, and bluetooth communications to a really simple to use phone app that records single or multiple channels up to 24 hrs, and exports to pdf, it's totally intuitive to use. See pg 34 in the manual. https://www.hioki.com/file/cmw/hdInstructionManual/93535/pdf/?action=browser [4] https://www.amazon.com/Hioki-True-RMS-Frequency-Resistance-Bluetooth/dp/B01CO6I5NG [5] Rebekah On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 12:45 PM Drake < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [6]> wrote: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone know of a source for a reliable, yet inexpensive recording volt meter? Thank you, Drake Drake ChamberlinAthens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328http://athens-electric.com/ [7] _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://stirling-tech.com/biogen/ [4] https://www.hioki.com/file/cmw/hdInstructionManual/93535/pdf/?action=browser [5] https://www.amazon.com/Hioki-True-RMS-Frequency-Resistance-Bluetooth/dp/B01CO6I5NG [6] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [7] http://athens-electric.com/ [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Wed Mar 6 15:33:28 2019 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 15:33:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recording Volt Meter In-Reply-To: References: <20190304174523.1DFD01067A2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <633d1777-bc88-a3aa-49c3-2b48f886b7d0@solarray.com> Message-ID: Blake, I believe the Hioki can do DC current and voltage recording at the same time (but not AC). Thanks, Will On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 3:59 PM Blake Gleason wrote: > I have used the Hioki for data logging. It's a super awesome feature for > a multi meter, and I agree with Rebekah that it's intuitive and easy, but > it hardly replaces a serious data-logging power meter. > > Limitations include the following: > - must leave your phone (or whatever Bluetooth device) sitting next to the > Hioki for the duration of recording > - 24 hour max recording > - only one phase/leg at a time > - either current or voltage but not both at the same time > > (I haven't needed the 'scope function yet, but I did spend five minutes > trying to get it to trigger just to see how it worked, and I couldn't > figure it out. So that part might not be as easy and intuitive as the > regular voltage logging function.) > > Blake > > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 12:30 PM Ray wrote: > >> Always count on Rebekah to point us to cool new stuff. That looks great, >> good price, Blue Tooth and I've been in the market for a better DC clamp >> on meter. It says you can look at the waveform through the Blue tooth in >> real time. Have you used this? Can you see distortions in a sinewave, for >> instance the steps in a "sine" wave inverter? Having some Oscilloscope >> functionality would really make this a deal. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 3/4/19 11:11 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: >> >> The Hioki meter amazes me. It can measure up to 1500VDC, and bluetooth >> communications to a really simple to use phone app that records single or >> multiple channels up to 24 hrs, and exports to pdf, it's totally intuitive >> to use. >> See pg 34 in the manual. >> >> >> https://www.hioki.com/file/cmw/hdInstructionManual/93535/pdf/?action=browser >> >> https://www.amazon.com/Hioki-True-RMS-Frequency-Resistance-Bluetooth/dp/B01CO6I5NG >> >> Rebekah >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 12:45 PM Drake < >> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> Does anyone know of a source for a reliable, yet inexpensive recording >>> volt meter? >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> Drake Chamberlin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified >>> Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | > > > *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* > > > 510.845.2997 x128 > > Follow us on Facebook > , > LinkedIn or our > website . > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Wed Mar 6 15:43:38 2019 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 12:43:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recording Volt Meter In-Reply-To: References: <20190304174523.1DFD01067A2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <633d1777-bc88-a3aa-49c3-2b48f886b7d0@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Will, Yes, thanks! The Hioki does log both V and A simultaneously for DC, but not AC. For some reason, the times I've wanted to use it for logging have all been AC. Best, Blake On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 12:33 PM Will White wrote: > Blake, > > I believe the Hioki can do DC current and voltage recording at the same > time (but not AC). > > Thanks, > Will > > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 3:59 PM Blake Gleason > wrote: > >> I have used the Hioki for data logging. It's a super awesome feature for >> a multi meter, and I agree with Rebekah that it's intuitive and easy, but >> it hardly replaces a serious data-logging power meter. >> >> Limitations include the following: >> - must leave your phone (or whatever Bluetooth device) sitting next to >> the Hioki for the duration of recording >> - 24 hour max recording >> - only one phase/leg at a time >> - either current or voltage but not both at the same time >> >> (I haven't needed the 'scope function yet, but I did spend five minutes >> trying to get it to trigger just to see how it worked, and I couldn't >> figure it out. So that part might not be as easy and intuitive as the >> regular voltage logging function.) >> >> Blake >> >> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 12:30 PM Ray wrote: >> >>> Always count on Rebekah to point us to cool new stuff. That looks >>> great, good price, Blue Tooth and I've been in the market for a better DC >>> clamp on meter. It says you can look at the waveform through the Blue >>> tooth in real time. Have you used this? Can you see distortions in a >>> sinewave, for instance the steps in a "sine" wave inverter? Having some >>> Oscilloscope functionality would really make this a deal. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 3/4/19 11:11 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: >>> >>> The Hioki meter amazes me. It can measure up to 1500VDC, and bluetooth >>> communications to a really simple to use phone app that records single or >>> multiple channels up to 24 hrs, and exports to pdf, it's totally intuitive >>> to use. >>> See pg 34 in the manual. >>> >>> >>> https://www.hioki.com/file/cmw/hdInstructionManual/93535/pdf/?action=browser >>> >>> https://www.amazon.com/Hioki-True-RMS-Frequency-Resistance-Bluetooth/dp/B01CO6I5NG >>> >>> Rebekah >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 12:45 PM Drake < >>> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>> >>>> Does anyone know of a source for a reliable, yet inexpensive recording >>>> volt meter? >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> Drake Chamberlin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified >>>> Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | >> >> >> *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* >> >> >> 510.845.2997 x128 >> >> Follow us on Facebook >> , >> LinkedIn or our >> website . >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power > the world with renewable energy.* > > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* 510.845.2997 x128 Follow us on Facebook , LinkedIn or our website . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 6 17:20:11 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 17:20:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Crimper for Enphase field wireable connectors Message-ID: Is there a reasonably priced alternative to the Multi-Contact PV-CZM-##100 models? These are the only ones specified in the quick install guide. Obviously I don't want to violate the listing, but I also don't want to spend $500 for a tool for each truck. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 18:25:45 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 15:25:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Crimper for Enphase field wireable connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20A9EDB9-717A-4B30-B3E6-B80444238C93@gmail.com> Hi Jason Talk to Bryan at PV cables 707-923-3000 He’s got the Rennsteig tool for under $200 and the MFG tool for just under $300 Jay Peltz power. > On Mar 6, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Is there a reasonably priced alternative to the Multi-Contact PV-CZM-##100 models? These are the only ones specified in the quick install guide. Obviously I don't want to violate the listing, but I also don't want to spend $500 for a tool for each truck. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Thu Mar 7 00:55:10 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2019 05:55:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Crimper for Enphase field wireable connectors In-Reply-To: <20A9EDB9-717A-4B30-B3E6-B80444238C93@gmail.com> References: , <20A9EDB9-717A-4B30-B3E6-B80444238C93@gmail.com> Message-ID: I second Jay's recommendation Bryan and the company "PV Cables" is GREAT!! Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) (801) 631-5584 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Mar 7 06:03:56 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2019 06:03:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Crimper for Enphase field wireable connectors In-Reply-To: <20A9EDB9-717A-4B30-B3E6-B80444238C93@gmail.com> References: <20A9EDB9-717A-4B30-B3E6-B80444238C93@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have the Rennsteig now. I wasn't sure if it is ok to use since it's not the exact specified model in the Enphase instructions. There are all kinds of knock offs for under $50 and I have found a couple that seem to work extremely well, but again I'm not sure if it violates the listing to do so. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group On Wed, Mar 6, 2019, 9:16 PM Jay wrote: > Hi Jason > > Talk to Bryan at PV cables > > 707-923-3000 > > He’s got the Rennsteig tool for under $200 and the MFG tool for just under > $300 > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > On Mar 6, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > > Is there a reasonably priced alternative to the Multi-Contact > PV-CZM-##100 models? These are the only ones specified in the quick install > guide. Obviously I don't want to violate the listing, but I also don't want > to spend $500 for a tool for each truck. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Fri Mar 8 11:29:22 2019 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 16:29:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Crimper for Enphase field wireable connectors In-Reply-To: References: <20A9EDB9-717A-4B30-B3E6-B80444238C93@gmail.com>, Message-ID: Hi Jason, The Field Wireable Connectors Installation Guide specified the following crimping tools for use with the connectors: Multi-Contact PV-CZM-18100, -19100, or -22100. That tool is required for meeting our reliability requirements and compliance requirements. The document can be found here: https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/downloads/support/Q-Field-Wireable-Connectors-QIG-EN-US.pdf Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager, Envoy and Accessories (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2019 3:03 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Crimper for Enphase field wireable connectors I have the Rennsteig now. I wasn't sure if it is ok to use since it's not the exact specified model in the Enphase instructions. There are all kinds of knock offs for under $50 and I have found a couple that seem to work extremely well, but again I'm not sure if it violates the listing to do so. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group On Wed, Mar 6, 2019, 9:16 PM Jay > wrote: Hi Jason Talk to Bryan at PV cables 707-923-3000 He’s got the Rennsteig tool for under $200 and the MFG tool for just under $300 Jay Peltz power. > On Mar 6, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > Is there a reasonably priced alternative to the Multi-Contact PV-CZM-##100 models? These are the only ones specified in the quick install guide. Obviously I don't want to violate the listing, but I also don't want to spend $500 for a tool for each truck. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Mar 8 12:25:08 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 12:25:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Crimper for Enphase field wireable connectors In-Reply-To: References: <20A9EDB9-717A-4B30-B3E6-B80444238C93@gmail.com> Message-ID: Nick, This tool is ridiculously expensive. Enphase should really look into alternatives. If you noticed, Wrenches were recommending other brands and I know many installers use cheap MC4 crimpers pickup up on Amazon. In fact, I have never known another installer near me using an MC brand tool since the early days when that is all that really existed. I wouldn't call it a prohibitively expense, but when one tool makes up over 25% of a truck's core tool box cost, something is wrong. Maybe I'm missing something and these other tools use dies that are acceptable, but it sounds like we are being forced into a single source/brand tool. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Mar 8, 2019 at 11:32 AM Nick Soleil wrote: > Hi Jason, > > > The Field Wireable Connectors Installation Guide specified the following > crimping tools for use with the connectors: Multi-Contact PV-CZM-18100, > -19100, or -22100. That tool is required for meeting our reliability > requirements and compliance requirements. > > > The document can be found here: > > > https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/downloads/support/Q-Field-Wireable-Connectors-QIG-EN-US.pdf > > Cordially, > > Nick Soleil > > Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager, Envoy and Accessories > > (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office > > (707) 321-2937 // cell > > *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System > > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Thursday, March 7, 2019 3:03 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Crimper for Enphase field wireable connectors > > I have the Rennsteig now. I wasn't sure if it is ok to use since it's not > the exact specified model in the Enphase instructions. There are all kinds > of knock offs for under $50 and I have found a couple that seem to work > extremely well, but again I'm not sure if it violates the listing to do > so. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2019, 9:16 PM Jay wrote: > > Hi Jason > > Talk to Bryan at PV cables > > 707-923-3000 > > He’s got the Rennsteig tool for under $200 and the MFG tool for just under > $300 > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > On Mar 6, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > > Is there a reasonably priced alternative to the Multi-Contact > PV-CZM-##100 models? These are the only ones specified in the quick install > guide. Obviously I don't want to violate the listing, but I also don't want > to spend $500 for a tool for each truck. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Mar 8 14:10:49 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 12:10:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Crimper for Enphase field wireable connectors In-Reply-To: References: <20A9EDB9-717A-4B30-B3E6-B80444238C93@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think the bigger question here is this:  Has anyone had connection failures of any sort using other crimpers?  i use an Amphenol tool and crimps, and they have always worked fine with a variety of modules.  I can see Enphase requiring the expensive tool, because it covers their liability bacon, and the cost isn't coming out of their pocket. The only failed connector I came across was a horrible cheap chinese copy of an MC connector on a little E bay RV system I trouble shooted.  They used what looked like  heavy tin foil in the connector, I could just bend it around with my fingers.  It was immediately obvious it was inferior, and was non UL. But please has anyone actually had an issue in the thousands of connections all of us Wrenches have made over the past 15 years? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/8/19 10:25 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > Nick, > > This tool is ridiculously expensive. Enphase should really look into > alternatives. If you noticed, Wrenches were recommending other brands > and I know many installers use cheap MC4 crimpers pickup up on Amazon. > In fact, I have never known another installer near me using an MC > brand tool since the early days when that is all that really existed. > I wouldn't call it a prohibitively expense, but when one tool makes up > over 25% of a truck's core tool box cost, something is wrong. Maybe > I'm missing something and these other tools use dies that are > acceptable, but it sounds like we are being forced into a single > source/brand tool. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > > * > > * > > > On Fri, Mar 8, 2019 at 11:32 AM Nick Soleil > wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > > The Field Wireable Connectors Installation Guide specified the > following crimping tools for use with the > connectors: Multi-Contact PV-CZM-18100, -19100, or -22100.  That > tool is required for meeting our reliability requirements and > compliance requirements. > > > The document can be found here: > > https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/downloads/support/Q-Field-Wireable-Connectors-QIG-EN-US.pdf > > Cordially, > > Nick Soleil > > Enphase EnergySenior Product Manager, Envoy and Accessories > > (707) 763-4784 x7267  // office > > (707) 321-2937  // cell > > *Powering What’s Next*™/ | /The Enphase Energy Management System > > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches > on behalf of > Jason Szumlanski > > *Sent:* Thursday, March 7, 2019 3:03 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Crimper for Enphase field wireable > connectors > I have the Rennsteig now. I wasn't sure if it is ok to use since > it's not the exact specified model in the Enphase instructions. > There are all kinds of knock offs for under $50 and I have found a > couple that seem to work extremely well, but again I'm not sure if > it violates the listing to do so. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2019, 9:16 PM Jay > wrote: > > Hi Jason > > Talk to Bryan at PV cables > > 707-923-3000 > > He’s got the Rennsteig tool for under $200 and the MFG tool > for just under $300 > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > On Mar 6, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > > > Is there a reasonably priced alternative to the > Multi-Contact PV-CZM-##100 models? These are the only ones > specified in the quick install guide. Obviously I don't want > to violate the listing, but I also don't want to spend $500 > for a tool for each truck. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Mar 8 20:34:23 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 20:34:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Crimper for Enphase field wireable connectors In-Reply-To: References: <20A9EDB9-717A-4B30-B3E6-B80444238C93@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <008d01d4d618$3eea5210$bcbef630$@glbcc.com> Nick, I recall an extensive discussion here regarding terminals to be used for battery terminals and the terminal manufacturer's requirement to use a specific crimper with their components to maintain their listing. It was the consensus here that the manufacturer could not exclude other listed tools to make the connections, and retain the listing as it was built. Please explain to me how what you are telling us is different? Regards, Glen Burt From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Nick Soleil Sent: Friday, March 08, 2019 11:29 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Crimper for Enphase field wireable connectors Hi Jason, The Field Wireable Connectors Installation Guide specified the following crimping tools for use with the connectors: Multi-Contact PV-CZM-18100, -19100, or -22100. That tool is required for meeting our reliability requirements and compliance requirements. The document can be found here: https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/downloads/support/Q-Field-Wireable-C onnectors-QIG-EN-US.pdf Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager, Envoy and Accessories (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What's NextT | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 _____ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jason Szumlanski > Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2019 3:03 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Crimper for Enphase field wireable connectors I have the Rennsteig now. I wasn't sure if it is ok to use since it's not the exact specified model in the Enphase instructions. There are all kinds of knock offs for under $50 and I have found a couple that seem to work extremely well, but again I'm not sure if it violates the listing to do so. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer Florida Solar Design Group On Wed, Mar 6, 2019, 9:16 PM Jay > wrote: Hi Jason Talk to Bryan at PV cables 707-923-3000 He's got the Rennsteig tool for under $200 and the MFG tool for just under $300 Jay Peltz power. > On Mar 6, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > Is there a reasonably priced alternative to the Multi-Contact PV-CZM-##100 models? These are the only ones specified in the quick install guide. Obviously I don't want to violate the listing, but I also don't want to spend $500 for a tool for each truck. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 09:23:33 2019 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2019 07:23:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Crimper for Enphase field wireable connectors In-Reply-To: <008d01d4d618$3eea5210$bcbef630$@glbcc.com> References: <20A9EDB9-717A-4B30-B3E6-B80444238C93@gmail.com> <008d01d4d618$3eea5210$bcbef630$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <94B05F1F-B747-4A14-9028-44A693139001@gmail.com> I have a college budget so I buy the recommended tools for our classroom but even then I’ve had to just discuss tools and show them on the overhead because some tools are extremely expensive. As a small time installer I can’t afford some of those tools. I have borrowed tools from other contractors that I have a good working relationship with. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 8, 2019, at 6:34 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Nick, > I recall an extensive discussion here regarding terminals to be used for battery terminals and the terminal manufacturer’s requirement to use a specific crimper with their components to maintain their listing. > > It was the consensus here that the manufacturer could not exclude other listed tools to make the connections, and retain the listing as it was built. > > Please explain to me how what you are telling us is different? > > Regards, > Glen Burt > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Nick Soleil > Sent: Friday, March 08, 2019 11:29 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Crimper for Enphase field wireable connectors > > Hi Jason, > > > > The Field Wireable Connectors Installation Guide specified the following crimping tools for use with the connectors: Multi-Contact PV-CZM-18100, -19100, or -22100. That tool is required for meeting our reliability requirements and compliance requirements. > > > > The document can be found here: > > https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/downloads/support/Q-Field-Wireable-Connectors-QIG-EN-US.pdf > > Cordially, > Nick Soleil > > Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager, Envoy and Accessories > > (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office > > (707) 321-2937 // cell > > Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > > > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jason Szumlanski > Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2019 3:03 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Crimper for Enphase field wireable connectors > > I have the Rennsteig now. I wasn't sure if it is ok to use since it's not the exact specified model in the Enphase instructions. There are all kinds of knock offs for under $50 and I have found a couple that seem to work extremely well, but again I'm not sure if it violates the listing to do so. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2019, 9:16 PM Jay wrote: > Hi Jason > > Talk to Bryan at PV cables > > 707-923-3000 > > He’s got the Rennsteig tool for under $200 and the MFG tool for just under $300 > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > On Mar 6, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > > > Is there a reasonably priced alternative to the Multi-Contact PV-CZM-##100 models? These are the only ones specified in the quick install guide. Obviously I don't want to violate the listing, but I also don't want to spend $500 for a tool for each truck. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Mar 9 12:41:04 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2019 10:41:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? Message-ID: <5fd581fe-aa11-a580-ee58-6fce37c08fd5@solarray.com> Hi Everyone; I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1)  Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7).   I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690,  where do we go for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid installers need some more clarification. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Mar 9 13:22:02 2019 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2019 11:22:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extending Midnite BTS In-Reply-To: <7ab1541d-5b85-2d78-f84d-7e9f32cd6699@midnitesolar.com> References: <7ab1541d-5b85-2d78-f84d-7e9f32cd6699@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <8657a367-8e81-715c-a651-bbc3c0e794e4@sindelarsolar.com> boB, This message about the BTS from late January gives me cause to ask a related question, please: What is the functional relation between the Outback and Midnite sensors? Background of my question: Years ago I somehow convinced myself that the two were interchangeable. I thought that I had heard this from Robin or yourself, but now I suspect I brainfarted this into my reality. Having learned that they're not interchangeable I have replaced under my warranty the five I could identify as having OB sensors with Midnite sensors. What I'd like to know is the real-world effect of my mistake on my clients' batteries, especially the two systems that have sealed AGM. Could you offer a comparison of the two in terms of, say, voltage rise at 0ºC? Thank you, Allan Sindelar On 1/29/2019 10:03 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > Yep.  No problem. > > It's polarity independent also so if one of the ends of the phone plug > is backwards, it shouldn't matter. > > 10K Ohms nominal 25 degree C value for the thermistor if anybody cares. > > boB > > On 1/29/2019 7:29 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >> Is it ok to extend the battery temp sensor wire for a classic >> controller? >> Length might be around 25 ft max. Original is 15ft. >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Mar 9 15:35:13 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2019 12:35:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? In-Reply-To: <5fd581fe-aa11-a580-ee58-6fce37c08fd5@solarray.com> References: <5fd581fe-aa11-a580-ee58-6fce37c08fd5@solarray.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Battery voltages in the NEC generally mean Nominal not peak but may also not to exceed. Blue ion is UL Listed and as far as less than 60, l think is the only ones. Jerry On Sat, Mar 9, 2019, 9:40 AM Ray wrote: > Hi Everyone; > > I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the > newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for > Over 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires > disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have > a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where > do we go for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? > > Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off > grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid > installers need some more clarification. > > Thanks, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Mar 9 18:24:29 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2019 18:24:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? In-Reply-To: <5fd581fe-aa11-a580-ee58-6fce37c08fd5@solarray.com> References: <5fd581fe-aa11-a580-ee58-6fce37c08fd5@solarray.com> Message-ID: <004d01d4d6cf$4206c020$c6144060$@glbcc.com> Hi Ray, This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly written and did not apply to most systems being installed today. After much discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed 706 apples to the typical residential systems. So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706. Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the IFC as applicable locally. So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making the system operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a component (the battery bank), and not the system (all components taken together as a generator/storage system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make. Hope this helps! -Glenn Burt -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Bill Brooks ; Bill Brooks Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? Hi Everyone; I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid installers need some more clarification. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From brian at solarenergy.org Sat Mar 9 22:08:45 2019 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2019 19:08:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? In-Reply-To: <004d01d4d6cf$4206c020$c6144060$@glbcc.com> References: <5fd581fe-aa11-a580-ee58-6fce37c08fd5@solarray.com> <004d01d4d6cf$4206c020$c6144060$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of ESS systems and the application of Article 706. Yes, an ESS *could* provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures in Article 690 show three different configurations where the output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS disconnect comes before any power electronics (like a multimode inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in the stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other systems which utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected to other systems" - in many cases the ESS only provides DC. In fact the definition of ESS clearly states this - it *can* have AC or DC output, and it *may* include power electronics (but may not). My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very common) was inserted in order to exempt other devices that store energy (such as UPS, or battery backup in fire alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements. Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > Hi Ray, > > This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of my fellow > inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike > Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly written > and did not apply to most systems being installed today. After much > discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed > 706 apples to the typical residential systems. > So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and I > believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of > 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706. > > Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the IFC > as applicable locally. > So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we do when > systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making the system > operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger). > > My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a component > (the battery bank), and not the system (all components taken together as a > generator/storage system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make. > > Hope this helps! > > -Glenn Burt > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Ray > Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Bill Brooks ; Bill Brooks > Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ?? > > Hi Everyone; > > I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the > newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over > 60 VDC (706.1) Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting > means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7). I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so > now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690, where do we go for > guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC? > > Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off > grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid > installers need some more clarification. > > Thanks, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Mon Mar 11 11:19:48 2019 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 15:19:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recording Volt Meter In-Reply-To: References: <20190304174522.7D05E10649A@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <1554961898.2605147.1552317588599@mail.yahoo.com> Hey Darryl-- Great idea on the eGauge. Is it somewhat easy to set up for us older, electrical coots with limited nework experience? Work in a rural area with not so smart utility meters and knowing peak demand and kWh loads would be a big help in setting up storage systems that would do the job without over spending. Would it be possible to hook it up at a house on a regular basis when it is not being used for a job? Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com On Monday, March 4, 2019, 6:33:06 PM EST, Darryl Thayer wrote: I use an Egauge which has 4 voltage inputs and 15 current inputs.  I go to sites and set up a recording that can do AC or DC voltages and currents.  I use this to analyze system and commercial and residential energy & power.  It can record one a 1-second basis or a one-minute or 5-min bases for years.   .   On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 11:45 AM Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone know of a source for a reliable, yet inexpensive recordingvolt meter? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Mar 11 14:38:59 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 14:38:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recording Volt Meter In-Reply-To: <1554961898.2605147.1552317588599@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190304174522.7D05E10649A@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <1554961898.2605147.1552317588599@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: We use Egauge with good success.  Their technical support has been very good in the past but I haven't had to use them in a year or so. They are a high end product so more expensive than some other options, but you can move them around to various sites easily.  You can also hook them up permanently. I have had one for at least five years now on my system. Here is what is happening on my system now.  Chris On 3/11/2019 11:19 AM, Bill Hennessy wrote: > Hey Darryl-- > > Great idea on the eGauge. Is it somewhat easy to set up for us older, > electrical coots with limited nework experience? Work in a rural area > with not so smart utility meters and knowing peak demand and kWh loads > would be a big help in setting up storage systems that would do the > job without over spending. > > Would it be possible to hook it up at a house on a regular basis when > it is not being used for a job? > > > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > > > On Monday, March 4, 2019, 6:33:06 PM EST, Darryl Thayer > wrote: > > > I use an Egauge which has 4 voltage inputs and 15 current inputs. > I go to sites and set up a recording that can do AC or DC voltages and > currents. I use this to analyze system and commercial and residential > energy & power.  It can record one a 1-second basis or a one-minute or > 5-min bases for years.   . > > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 11:45 AM Drake > > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone know of a source for a reliable, yet inexpensive > recording volt meter? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: oodlbjfemmjcfegi.png Type: image/png Size: 215148 bytes Desc: not available URL: From welch.nicholas.r at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 16:08:14 2019 From: welch.nicholas.r at gmail.com (Nick Welch) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 16:08:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mystery racking-who knows what this is? Message-ID: Hello, I took on a project that was partially completed by another outfit. I need to provide a spec sheet on the racking (rail more so than stand-off) for permitting. I believe it was installed roughly 5 years ago. See picture below. [image: mystery rail.JPG] Many thanks, Nick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mystery rail.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 80105 bytes Desc: not available URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Tue Mar 12 16:17:19 2019 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 13:17:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mystery racking-who knows what this is? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow, looks like a tile bracket used (very improperly) on comp shingle. Sorry I don't recognize the mfr. This one goes straight to our "Solar Gone Wrong" photo gallery. Blake On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:08 PM Nick Welch wrote: > Hello, > > I took on a project that was partially completed by another outfit. I need > to provide a spec sheet on the racking (rail more so than stand-off) for > permitting. I believe it was installed roughly 5 years ago. See picture > below. > > > [image: mystery rail.JPG] > > Many thanks, > > Nick > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* 510.845.2997 x128 Follow us on Facebook , LinkedIn or our website . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mystery rail.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 80105 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Mar 12 18:04:11 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 18:04:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mystery racking-who knows what this is? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Outfit = Clown? Nick, I would tell this client you can't touch this PV system without replacing the mounting system completely. I can't see how that meets any building code. There is no question in my mind that it will eventually leak. Wrong application, no flashing - this is a recipe for disaster. I hate it when people get taken like this by installers who have no idea what they are doing. I can't say WHO made the roof hook (intended for tile, not shingle), but I have a pretty good idea WHERE it might have been made. :) It looks VERY cheap and poorly designed. Alibaba has a few similar items with hex drive screws. It looks awfully close to this: http://www.tripsolar.com/products_detail/productId=85.html You're probably looking at something that was imported as a complete kit, possibly with panels included. Are there any hints from the other equipment in the installation? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 4:08 PM Nick Welch wrote: > Hello, > > I took on a project that was partially completed by another outfit. I need > to provide a spec sheet on the racking (rail more so than stand-off) for > permitting. I believe it was installed roughly 5 years ago. See picture > below. > > > [image: mystery rail.JPG] > > Many thanks, > > Nick > _______ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mystery rail.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 80105 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Mar 12 18:57:22 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 16:57:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mystery racking-who knows what this is? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98811ee7-7bf2-c33b-12d9-4aa5584c17a0@solarray.com> What brand are the modules?  Are they even UL listed?  Once they ran that by the inspector and he wasn't happy, that may have been the point when the Circus packed up its tent and left town. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/12/19 4:04 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > Outfit = Clown? > > Nick, I would tell this client you can't touch this PV system without > replacing the mounting system completely. I can't see how that meets > any building code. There is no question in my mind that it will > eventually leak. Wrong application, no flashing - this is a recipe for > disaster. I hate it when people get taken like this by installers who > have no idea what they are doing. > > I can't say WHO made the roof hook (intended for tile, not shingle), > but I have a pretty good idea WHERE it might have been made. :) It > looks VERY cheap and poorly designed. > > Alibaba has a few similar items with hex drive screws. It looks > awfully close to this: > http://www.tripsolar.com/products_detail/productId=85.html > > You're probably looking at something that was imported as a complete > kit, possibly with panels included. Are there any hints from the other > equipment in the installation? > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > * > > * > > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 4:08 PM Nick Welch > wrote: > > Hello, > > I took on a project that was partially completed by another > outfit. I need to provide a spec sheet on the racking (rail more > so than stand-off) for permitting. I believe it was installed > roughly 5 years ago. See picture below. > > > mystery rail.JPG > > Many thanks, > > Nick > _______ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mystery rail.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 80105 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 19:10:35 2019 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 23:10:35 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mystery racking-who knows what this is? In-Reply-To: <98811ee7-7bf2-c33b-12d9-4aa5584c17a0@solarray.com> References: , <98811ee7-7bf2-c33b-12d9-4aa5584c17a0@solarray.com> Message-ID: the tile hook looks very much like Schüco's product. . But the rail is not jumping to mind.. Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2019 3:57:22 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mystery racking-who knows what this is? What brand are the modules? Are they even UL listed? Once they ran that by the inspector and he wasn't happy, that may have been the point when the Circus packed up its tent and left town. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/12/19 4:04 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Outfit = Clown? Nick, I would tell this client you can't touch this PV system without replacing the mounting system completely. I can't see how that meets any building code. There is no question in my mind that it will eventually leak. Wrong application, no flashing - this is a recipe for disaster. I hate it when people get taken like this by installers who have no idea what they are doing. I can't say WHO made the roof hook (intended for tile, not shingle), but I have a pretty good idea WHERE it might have been made. :) It looks VERY cheap and poorly designed. Alibaba has a few similar items with hex drive screws. It looks awfully close to this: http://www.tripsolar.com/products_detail/productId=85.html You're probably looking at something that was imported as a complete kit, possibly with panels included. Are there any hints from the other equipment in the installation? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 4:08 PM Nick Welch > wrote: Hello, I took on a project that was partially completed by another outfit. I need to provide a spec sheet on the racking (rail more so than stand-off) for permitting. I believe it was installed roughly 5 years ago. See picture below. [mystery rail.JPG] Many thanks, Nick _______ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mystery rail.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 80105 bytes Desc: mystery rail.JPG URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed Mar 13 13:02:52 2019 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 12:02:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback question Message-ID: Has anyone ever done a dual radian installation with only one GSLC? I can't see the need for a second one other than wire routing. Am i missing something? Thanks, Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 13:19:17 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 10:19:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5c893b97.1c69fb81.f59cc.ecdc@mx.google.com> KristopherEach box has it own set of bussing and breakers, not using a box how would you protect the DC inputs and what would you do with the AC outputs, bypass, that along with the DC wiring.I have installed 8 Radian in one location all with the box under the inverter.JerrySent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Kristopher Schmid Date: 3/13/19 10:02 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback question Has anyone ever done a dual radian installation with only one GSLC?  I can't see the need for a second one other than wire routing.  Am i missing something?Thanks,KrisShine On!Kris SchmidLegacy Solar, LLC137 West 1st AvenueLuck, WI 54853www.legacysolar.com715-653-4295NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalLicensed Wisconsin Master ElectricianBSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Mar 13 13:30:35 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 10:30:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6FB5D603-65D3-42AE-B7CE-D5BACD17097B@millersolar.com> Kris: You need one for the DC inverter breaker(s) at the least. There are no caps to insulate the DC posts. Don’t be so cheap. Your installation quality will be inferior. William Miller > On Mar 13, 2019, at 10:02 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > Has anyone ever done a dual radian installation with only one GSLC? I can't see the need for a second one other than wire routing. Am i missing something? > > Thanks, > Kris > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 16:37:32 2019 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 10:37:32 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mystery racking-who knows what this is? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow is right. I found this on the web and it looks close, but it just the supplier information? This is crazy, they didn't even go for the goop and prayer method with the tile bracket. [image: image.png] *James B. Rudolph* *Hawai'i Unified* *Director of Energy* *ES Electrician # 10816* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* *808.594.9969* On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 10:08 AM Nick Welch wrote: > Hello, > > I took on a project that was partially completed by another outfit. I need > to provide a spec sheet on the racking (rail more so than stand-off) for > permitting. I believe it was installed roughly 5 years ago. See picture > below. > > > [image: mystery rail.JPG] > > Many thanks, > > Nick > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mystery rail.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 80105 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 146880 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Thu Mar 14 15:10:14 2019 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 12:10:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone recognize this pole mount system? Message-ID: Wrenches, Anyone recognize these pole mounts? We adopted a bastard system and are trying to bring it up to code. Thanks -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3333.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 227517 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 111.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 289537 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2222.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 215742 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Mar 14 15:18:55 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 15:18:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone recognize this pole mount system? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not sure about the grey steel bracketed one, but the other 2 (?) look like the old Unirac TPMs, which haven't been in production for more than 15 years (?). Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 3:11 PM Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: > Wrenches, > > Anyone recognize these pole mounts? > We adopted a bastard system and are trying to bring it up to code. > > Thanks > > -- > > Loren Ortiz > Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid > > loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com > > *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* > > > > > > > *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Mar 14 15:33:14 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 13:33:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone recognize this pole mount system? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ee0443d-50ee-df06-e5d9-7e2becd84cad@solarray.com> That's my call too, The Unirac TPM was truly an inferior product, and would both change tilt and rotate on the pole in high winds. It needs to be pinned to the pole and have bracing added to hold its tilt.  The other 2 look possibly home made, there are quite a few of those around; folks have some welding equipment and go for it themselves.  I recently replaced a horrible home made pole mount made out of Unistrut, the whole thing could barely hold up the weight of the modules.  Yours don't look too bad,  but I would give it the old field test: grab out on one corner and put your full weight on it to see how it behaves.  I also like to shake it up and down at the right frequency to see how it behaves too.  It really should be strong enough for a person to be able to crawl around on it. The tilt angle looks really extreme, many racking companies do not rate their systems for tilt beyond 45 degrees. Also, I would write up some disclaimer  to release yourselves from liability.  It should note the substandard racking, the potential for failure in high winds or snow loads, and that the customer has chosen not to replace the racks. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/14/19 1:18 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Not sure about the grey steel bracketed one, but the other 2 (?) look > like the old Unirac TPMs, which haven't been in production for more > than 15 years (?). > Howie > *Howie Michaelson > **Sun Catcher* > *****/NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > /** > **Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004* > > > On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 3:11 PM Lorenzo Ortiz > wrote: > > Wrenches, > > Anyone recognize these pole mounts? > We adopted a bastard system and are trying to bring it up to code. > > Thanks > > -- > __ > Loren Ortiz > Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid > > loren at cal-solar.com > californiasolarco.com > *Main:530-274-3671 ext: 311 ****Fax:530-274-7518* > > ** > > > > > *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tim.econopouly at suncommon.com Thu Mar 14 16:12:07 2019 From: tim.econopouly at suncommon.com (Timothy Econopouly) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 16:12:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone recognize this pole mount system? In-Reply-To: <5ee0443d-50ee-df06-e5d9-7e2becd84cad@solarray.com> References: <5ee0443d-50ee-df06-e5d9-7e2becd84cad@solarray.com> Message-ID: They look like vintage Tamarack or MT Solar top of pole mounts On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 3:32 PM Ray wrote: > That's my call too, The Unirac TPM was truly an inferior product, and > would both change tilt and rotate on the pole in high winds. It needs to > be pinned to the pole and have bracing added to hold its tilt. The other 2 > look possibly home made, there are quite a few of those around; folks have > some welding equipment and go for it themselves. I recently replaced a > horrible home made pole mount made out of Unistrut, the whole thing could > barely hold up the weight of the modules. Yours don't look too bad, but I > would give it the old field test: grab out on one corner and put your full > weight on it to see how it behaves. I also like to shake it up and down at > the right frequency to see how it behaves too. It really should be strong > enough for a person to be able to crawl around on it. > > The tilt angle looks really extreme, many racking companies do not rate > their systems for tilt beyond 45 degrees. > > Also, I would write up some disclaimer to release yourselves from > liability. It should note the substandard racking, the potential for > failure in high winds or snow loads, and that the customer has chosen not > to replace the racks. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 3/14/19 1:18 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Not sure about the grey steel bracketed one, but the other 2 (?) look like > the old Unirac TPMs, which haven't been in production for more than 15 > years (?). > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson **Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ * > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004* > > > On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 3:11 PM Lorenzo Ortiz > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> Anyone recognize these pole mounts? >> We adopted a bastard system and are trying to bring it up to code. >> >> Thanks >> >> -- >> >> Loren Ortiz >> Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid >> >> loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com >> *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Field Operations | SunCommon https://suncommon.com/drawdown/ 13 Hook Rd. Rhinebeck, NY 12572 845-702-9068 (cell) | 866-452-7652 x 107 (office) | tim.econopouly at suncommon.com www.suncommon.com savemoney. gosolar. SunCommon believes that everyone has the right to a healthy environment and brighter future – and renewable energy is where it starts. Energy from the sun can power our lives and build vibrant communities. Our mission is to tear down barriers to clean energy and use our business as a force for good. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Thu Mar 14 17:13:19 2019 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 14:13:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone recognize this pole mount system? In-Reply-To: References: <5ee0443d-50ee-df06-e5d9-7e2becd84cad@solarray.com> Message-ID: Timothy, They are definitely NOT Tamarack. I doubt you can bring them up to code. Current code is 115 MPH. Tamarack is currently working on certified engineering on their pole mounts for up to 150 MPH wind and up to 50 PSF of snow load. I can see that the one on the orange pole is not going to make an engineer happy. That one definitely looks home made. David Katz Tamarack Solar Products On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 1:12 PM Timothy Econopouly < tim.econopouly at suncommon.com> wrote: > They look like vintage Tamarack or MT Solar top of pole mounts > > On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 3:32 PM Ray wrote: > >> That's my call too, The Unirac TPM was truly an inferior product, and >> would both change tilt and rotate on the pole in high winds. It needs to >> be pinned to the pole and have bracing added to hold its tilt. The other 2 >> look possibly home made, there are quite a few of those around; folks have >> some welding equipment and go for it themselves. I recently replaced a >> horrible home made pole mount made out of Unistrut, the whole thing could >> barely hold up the weight of the modules. Yours don't look too bad, but I >> would give it the old field test: grab out on one corner and put your full >> weight on it to see how it behaves. I also like to shake it up and down at >> the right frequency to see how it behaves too. It really should be strong >> enough for a person to be able to crawl around on it. >> >> The tilt angle looks really extreme, many racking companies do not rate >> their systems for tilt beyond 45 degrees. >> >> Also, I would write up some disclaimer to release yourselves from >> liability. It should note the substandard racking, the potential for >> failure in high winds or snow loads, and that the customer has chosen not >> to replace the racks. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 3/14/19 1:18 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >> >> Not sure about the grey steel bracketed one, but the other 2 (?) look >> like the old Unirac TPMs, which haven't been in production for more than 15 >> years (?). >> Howie >> >> *Howie Michaelson **Sun Catcher* >> >> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ * >> >> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004* >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 3:11 PM Lorenzo Ortiz >> wrote: >> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> Anyone recognize these pole mounts? >>> We adopted a bastard system and are trying to bring it up to code. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Loren Ortiz >>> Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid >>> >>> loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com >>> *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > Field Operations | SunCommon https://suncommon.com/drawdown/ > > 13 Hook Rd. Rhinebeck, NY 12572 > > 845-702-9068 (cell) | 866-452-7652 x 107 (office) | > tim.econopouly at suncommon.com > www.suncommon.com > savemoney. gosolar. > > SunCommon believes that everyone has the right to a healthy environment > and brighter future – and renewable energy is where it starts. > > Energy from the sun can power our lives and build vibrant communities. > > Our mission is to tear down barriers to clean energy and use our business > as a force for good. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Mar 19 09:25:40 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 09:25:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Voltage Spikes? Message-ID: <55b2dfa4e88166d9b01e91662c7517d6a79916e7@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, We have an Outback VFX3648 inverter AC coupled to a Stirling Generator. We use an Outback autotransformer to  get the 240 V needed to match the Stirling. The Stirling generator must run continuously, as it is difficult to start up after a shut down. The system works flawlessly for many hours. At some point, usually when the dump load kicks on, the generator shuts down on a high voltage error. High voltage is about 264 V. We have never seen voltage that high on the system. We replaced the control board on the inverter, and the output voltage appears very stable. The Stirling people say that the Outback must be putting out high voltage spikes that are so brief that we will not be able to see them with a voltmeter. Can an Outback inverter create such spikes? Thanks, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 10:54:34 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 08:54:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage seeking transfer switch Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have experience with a 200A outdoor transfer switch that will automatically seek voltage? Meaning that if priority voltage source (grid) isn't available and second source is available it will switch to it with no external communication? We are trying to do a whole house backup, and critical load panel isn't possible. This may be common, I just haven't done it. Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Mar 19 11:44:49 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 11:44:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage seeking transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28429ec0-f09e-37fb-4abf-bfc99d985a6e@entech-engineering.com> I think you just use an automatic transfer switch similar to those used for back up generators.  We are looking at one for backing up a community well pump that will transfer to a multimode system if the utility drops out. Chris On 3/19/2019 10:54 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone have experience with a 200A outdoor transfer switch that > will automatically seek voltage?  Meaning that if priority voltage > source (grid) isn't available and second source is available it will > switch to it with no external communication?  We are trying to do a > whole house backup, and critical load panel isn't possible.  This may > be common, I just haven't done it. > > Thanks in advance > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 12:03:06 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 09:03:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage seeking transfer switch In-Reply-To: <28429ec0-f09e-37fb-4abf-bfc99d985a6e@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <5c9112bd.1c69fb81.4cafb.0cd1@mx.google.com> Christopher I have used a Cummins 200 amp generator/grid transfer switch, it gives the gen start command, we used this so during normal operations we could pass through the full load where in backup mode the inverters took overSent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Christopher Warfel Date: 3/19/19 8:44 AM (GMT-08:00) To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Voltage seeking transfer switch I think you just use an automatic transfer switch similar to those used for back up generators.  We are looking at one for backing up a community well pump that will transfer to a multimode system if the utility drops out. Chris On 3/19/2019 10:54 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have experience with a 200A outdoor transfer switch that will automatically seek voltage?  Meaning that if priority voltage source (grid) isn't available and second source is available it will switch to it with no external communication?  We are trying to do a whole house backup, and critical load panel isn't possible.  This may be common, I just haven't done it. Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 11:29:33 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 08:29:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Voltage Spikes? In-Reply-To: <55b2dfa4e88166d9b01e91662c7517d6a79916e7@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <55b2dfa4e88166d9b01e91662c7517d6a79916e7@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <5B25C7A0-D10F-4C88-9426-E1F6B2DD4CC8@gmail.com> Hi Drake, Can you explain the diversion load more. Dc or ac Size, Watts What type of load How is it turned on, off My reasoning is that you seem to point to a connection between diversion load and shut down. Thx Jay > On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:25 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > We have an Outback VFX3648 inverter AC coupled to a Stirling Generator. We use an Outback autotransformer to get the 240 V needed to match the Stirling. The Stirling generator must run continuously, as it is difficult to start up after a shut down. > > The system works flawlessly for many hours. At some point, usually when the dump load kicks on, the generator shuts down on a high voltage error. High voltage is about 264 V. We have never seen voltage that high on the system. > > We replaced the control board on the inverter, and the output voltage appears very stable. The Stirling people say that the Outback must be putting out high voltage spikes that are so brief that we will not be able to see them with a voltmeter. > > Can an Outback inverter create such spikes? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Mar 19 13:39:43 2019 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 17:39:43 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage seeking transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mac, You could look into an Auto Transfer Switch such as the ASCO 185 series that will do this. The larger $$ units such as the 7000 series have a lot more programming options in them. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: March-19-19 7:55 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage seeking transfer switch Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have experience with a 200A outdoor transfer switch that will automatically seek voltage? Meaning that if priority voltage source (grid) isn't available and second source is available it will switch to it with no external communication? We are trying to do a whole house backup, and critical load panel isn't possible. This may be common, I just haven't done it. Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Mar 19 18:49:41 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 18:49:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Voltage Spikes? In-Reply-To: <5B25C7A0-D10F-4C88-9426-E1F6B2DD4CC8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <32ced259de68c490c0d1ec65d3a9bfe96d8c4008@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Hi Jay, The diversion load is AC, and controlled by the Aux output dump load function on the MX 60. The aux output triggers a relay that opens the 1000 W, space heater dump load. Since this is an AC coupled system, the dump load is between the inverter and the Stirling generator, fed from the off grid service panel where the AC coupling takes place. The Stirling puts out close to 1000 W. When the Stirling is charging batteries, the FET board on the Outback is working hard, turning the AC into DC. When the batteries reach the programmed voltage level, the relay triggers and the power goes to an electric space heater. The inverter has little to do. A sketch of the setup is attached. The problem  seems to occur when there is a change in the load. It can also be other loads that cause the Stirling to go into high voltage shutdown. Thanks, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To:"RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent:Tue, 19 Mar 2019 08:29:33 -0700 Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Voltage Spikes? Hi Drake, Can you explain the diversion load more. Dc or ac Size, Watts What type of load How is it turned on, off My reasoning is that you seem to point to a connection between diversion load and shut down. Thx Jay > On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:25 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > We have an Outback VFX3648 inverter AC coupled to a Stirling Generator. We use an Outback autotransformer to get the 240 V needed to match the Stirling. The Stirling generator must run continuously, as it is difficult to start up after a shut down. > > The system works flawlessly for many hours. At some point, usually when the dump load kicks on, the generator shuts down on a high voltage error. High voltage is about 264 V. We have never seen voltage that high on the system. > > We replaced the control board on the inverter, and the output voltage appears very stable. The Stirling people say that the Outback must be putting out high voltage spikes that are so brief that we will not be able to see them with a voltmeter. > > Can an Outback inverter create such spikes? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Stirling AC Coupling MC.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 7607 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 19:40:43 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 18:40:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Voltage Spikes? In-Reply-To: <55b2dfa4e88166d9b01e91662c7517d6a79916e7@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <55b2dfa4e88166d9b01e91662c7517d6a79916e7@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hello all, I work with speed drives, they are an inverter, an abrupt change in load will result in a voltage spike. I have never measured or even tried this event on an FX inverter but it would not surprise me. The inverter is taking load charging the battery then it changes to supplying load from the battery. Perhaps a ramp to load would prevent this from happening. Magnum used to have an AC dump load controller. Also check with Midnight as to a MOV that clips at 260 volts? On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 8:25 AM wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > We have an Outback VFX3648 inverter AC coupled to a Stirling Generator. We > use an Outback autotransformer to get the 240 V needed to match the > Stirling. The Stirling generator must run continuously, as it is difficult > to start up after a shut down. > > The system works flawlessly for many hours. At some point, usually when > the dump load kicks on, the generator shuts down on a high voltage error. > High voltage is about 264 V. We have never seen voltage that high on the > system. > > We replaced the control board on the inverter, and the output voltage > appears very stable. The Stirling people say that the Outback must be > putting out high voltage spikes that are so brief that we will not be able > to see them with a voltmeter. > > Can an Outback inverter create such spikes? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 19:50:45 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 18:50:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage seeking transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, the generator transfer switches work as you request, however the ones that I have used require the generator start battery 12-volt connection to pull the transfer switch. You may have to provide a 12-volt source to accomplish this transfer. The last ones I used were from Eaton, Generac, and others, all using a 12-volt to activate the transfer On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 9:54 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone have experience with a 200A outdoor transfer switch that will > automatically seek voltage? Meaning that if priority voltage source (grid) > isn't available and second source is available it will switch to it with no > external communication? We are trying to do a whole house backup, and > critical load panel isn't possible. This may be common, I just haven't > done it. > > Thanks in advance > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Wed Mar 20 10:12:42 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 14:12:42 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone recognize this pole mount system? In-Reply-To: References: <5ee0443d-50ee-df06-e5d9-7e2becd84cad@solarray.com>, Message-ID: These are not MT Solar. That is certain. Thanks, Kienan > On Mar 14, 2019, at 2:12 PM, Timothy Econopouly wrote: > > They look like vintage Tamarack or MT Solar top of pole mounts > > From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Wed Mar 20 11:30:11 2019 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 08:30:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone recognize this pole mount system? In-Reply-To: References: <5ee0443d-50ee-df06-e5d9-7e2becd84cad@solarray.com> Message-ID: Yeah, I'm pretty sure that one is an old Unirac TPM, but the one with the adjustable screw is a mystery. On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 7:12 AM Kienan Maxfield wrote: > These are not MT Solar. That is certain. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > > > > On Mar 14, 2019, at 2:12 PM, Timothy Econopouly < > tim.econopouly at suncommon.com> wrote: > > > > They look like vintage Tamarack or MT Solar top of pole mounts > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Wed Mar 20 11:52:19 2019 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 09:52:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shopping for an irradiance sensor that can connect to LAN local area network Message-ID: Hello, Mechanix~ Any leads on finding this item would be appreciated. I'd like the sensor to be mounted in the same plane as the PV array. I think the communication protocol I need for this is Modbus/TCP. Thanks & Jolliness~ Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Wed Mar 20 14:01:06 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 18:01:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage seeking transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’ve used the Cumins, and it works well. It has a 120 VAC to 12 VDC converter inside, so it doesn’t require a generator battery. That being said, the power supply comes pre-wired to the grid side, so I had to rewire it to the “gen” (solar) side since that side always has power. -Kienan On Mar 19, 2019, at 5:51 PM, Darryl Thayer > wrote: Hello, the generator transfer switches work as you request, however the ones that I have used require the generator start battery 12-volt connection to pull the transfer switch. You may have to provide a 12-volt source to accomplish this transfer. The last ones I used were from Eaton, Generac, and others, all using a 12-volt to activate the transfer On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 9:54 AM Mac Lewis > wrote: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have experience with a 200A outdoor transfer switch that will automatically seek voltage? Meaning that if priority voltage source (grid) isn't available and second source is available it will switch to it with no external communication? We are trying to do a whole house backup, and critical load panel isn't possible. This may be common, I just haven't done it. Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0b6c91dd0111495c8d7108d6acc5bd68%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636886362614017066&sdata=dn3pLCeSWM%2B%2FPd7IfRdo1t2%2FOis7dIK02nRjhZoisp0%3D&reserved=0 List-Archive: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0b6c91dd0111495c8d7108d6acc5bd68%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636886362614017066&sdata=aD%2Bf2lqbrPNQ53qSZxVzN8BsvBZpO%2BtqxcqyxYnx4qA%3D&reserved=0 List rules & etiquette: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0b6c91dd0111495c8d7108d6acc5bd68%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636886362614027071&sdata=V4Dxf08g4aBfulW477xsoeFq6sTfFgMbuG9000Q0EIo%3D&reserved=0 Check out or update participant bios: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.members.re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0b6c91dd0111495c8d7108d6acc5bd68%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636886362614027071&sdata=QeJek24hJgPBdM%2BYzQfhdMRo%2BK4Pto%2F9qnKedfcdgDQ%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikek at spiritsolar.net Wed Mar 20 21:27:51 2019 From: mikek at spiritsolar.net (Mike Kocsmiersky) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 21:27:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Voltage Spikes? In-Reply-To: <32ced259de68c490c0d1ec65d3a9bfe96d8c4008@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <5B25C7A0-D10F-4C88-9426-E1F6B2DD4CC8@gmail.com> <32ced259de68c490c0d1ec65d3a9bfe96d8c4008@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <009401d4df85$51475220$f3d5f660$@net> My vague recollection of a similar problem I saw 10 yrs ago was that the surges and sags of a balancing transformer like the T240 are greater than that of a true isolation transformer. Whereas the T240 has both primary and secondary sides sharing a neutral, the surge that the generator sees becomes too high. I recall we fixed this by using a 2400VA acme isolation transformer. Can’t really remember the engineering explanation, but you may want to explore this avenue. Mike Kocsmiersky Principal Spirit Solar Inc. From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 6:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Voltage Spikes? Hi Jay, The diversion load is AC, and controlled by the Aux output dump load function on the MX 60. The aux output triggers a relay that opens the 1000 W, space heater dump load Since this is an AC coupled system, the dump load is between the inverter and the Stirling generator, fed from the off grid service panel where the AC coupling takes place. The Stirling puts out close to 1000 W. When the Stirling is charging batteries, the FET board on the Outback is working hard, turning the AC into DC. When the batteries reach the programmed voltage level, the relay triggers and the power goes to an electric space heater. The inverter has little to do. A sketch of the setup is attached. The problem seems to occur when there is a change in the load. It can also be other loads that cause the Stirling to go into high voltage shutdown Thanks, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 08:29:33 -0700 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Voltage Spikes? Hi Drake, Can you explain the diversion load more. Dc or ac Size, Watts What type of load How is it turned on, off My reasoning is that you seem to point to a connection between diversion load and shut down. Thx Jay > On Mar 19, 2019, at 6:25 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > We have an Outback VFX3648 inverter AC coupled to a Stirling Generator. We use an Outback autotransformer to get the 240 V needed to match the Stirling. The Stirling generator must run continuously, as it is difficult to start up after a shut down. > > The system works flawlessly for many hours. At some point, usually when the dump load kicks on, the generator shuts down on a high voltage error. High voltage is about 264 V. We have never seen voltage that high on the system. > > We replaced the control board on the inverter, and the output voltage appears very stable. The Stirling people say that the Outback must be putting out high voltage spikes that are so brief that we will not be able to see them with a voltmeter. > > Can an Outback inverter create such spikes? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Mar 20 13:07:29 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 13:07:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shopping for an irradiance sensor that can connect to LAN local area network In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004f01d4df3f$687dde00$39799a00$@glbcc.com> Hi Mick, Every pyranometer I have seen are simple devices that must be connected to a datalogger which provides scaling, logging and ethernet interface functionality. I have never seen a stand-alone device that has built-in LAN connectivity. Are you sure this is what you are looking for? Sounds like it would be a custom build or a very expensive DAS system pared down to only the pyranometer and LAN functionality. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mick Abraham Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2019 11:52 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shopping for an irradiance sensor that can connect to LAN local area network Hello, Mechanix~ Any leads on finding this item would be appreciated. I'd like the sensor to be mounted in the same plane as the PV array. I think the communication protocol I need for this is Modbus/TCP. Thanks & Jolliness~ Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Tue Mar 19 16:55:23 2019 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 15:55:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage seeking transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00f301d4de96$12c30b60$38492220$@solarcentex.com> ASCO 185 a solid ATS. Have used several times – no issues and good value From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 12:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Voltage seeking transfer switch Hi Mac, You could look into an Auto Transfer Switch such as the ASCO 185 series that will do this. The larger $$ units such as the 7000 series have a lot more programming options in them. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: March-19-19 7:55 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage seeking transfer switch Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have experience with a 200A outdoor transfer switch that will automatically seek voltage? Meaning that if priority voltage source (grid) isn't available and second source is available it will switch to it with no external communication? We are trying to do a whole house backup, and critical load panel isn't possible. This may be common, I just haven't done it. Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 15:03:42 2019 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 09:03:42 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mystery racking-who knows what this is? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Nick, Here is the link that I found. https://www.globalsources.com/si/AS/Jiangyin-Afea/6008845321812/pdtl/high-quality-aluminum-solar-mounting-rails-rackin/1121879476.htm Happy Trails! *James B. Rudolph* *Hawai'i Unified* *Director of Energy* *ES Electrician # 10816* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* *808.594.9969* On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 10:08 AM Nick Welch wrote: > Hello, > > I took on a project that was partially completed by another outfit. I need > to provide a spec sheet on the racking (rail more so than stand-off) for > permitting. I believe it was installed roughly 5 years ago. See picture > below. > > > [image: mystery rail.JPG] > > Many thanks, > > Nick > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mystery rail.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 80105 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Thu Mar 21 17:01:36 2019 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 16:01:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shopping for an irradiance sensor that can connect to LAN local area network In-Reply-To: <004f01d4df3f$687dde00$39799a00$@glbcc.com> References: <004f01d4df3f$687dde00$39799a00$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: https://www.hukseflux.com/products/solar-radiation-sensors/pyranometers/sr05-d1a3-pyranometer It is Modbus RS-485. You can convert to Modbus TCP with an inexpensive gateway. Note that the sensors themselves aren't very cheap. -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 3:46 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > Hi Mick, > > > > Every pyranometer I have seen are simple devices that must be connected to > a datalogger which provides scaling, logging and ethernet interface > functionality. I have never seen a stand-alone device that has built-in LAN > connectivity. > > Are you sure this is what you are looking for? > > Sounds like it would be a custom build or a very expensive DAS system > pared down to only the pyranometer and LAN functionality. > > > > -Glenn > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Mick Abraham > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 20, 2019 11:52 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Shopping for an irradiance sensor that can > connect to LAN local area network > > > > Hello, Mechanix~ > > > > Any leads on finding this item would be appreciated. I'd like the sensor > to be mounted in the same plane as the PV array. I think the communication > protocol I need for this is Modbus/TCP. > > > > Thanks & Jolliness~ > > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunmountain at netstep.net Sat Mar 23 17:40:04 2019 From: sunmountain at netstep.net (Larry Brown) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 17:40:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Burkina Faso Off Grid Message-ID: <4BBF7FEF-1300-4BFA-B47B-BF263C155881@netstep.net> Wrenches I had a call from someone looking for an installer to do some off grid installations in Burkina Faso, Africa They have a school project they are working on If anyone does work in that part of the world would you get in touch and I will hook you up with Pascal Thanks Larry Larry Brown Sun Mountain 845-657-8096 Sunmountain at netstep.net From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Mar 25 14:23:51 2019 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 18:23:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Burkina Faso Off Grid In-Reply-To: <4BBF7FEF-1300-4BFA-B47B-BF263C155881@netstep.net> References: <4BBF7FEF-1300-4BFA-B47B-BF263C155881@netstep.net> Message-ID: The folks at African Energy have an outpost in Burkina Faso. http://africanenergy.com/african-energy-depot-list/ouagadougou-burkina-faso/ Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Brown Sent: March-23-19 2:40 PM To: re-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Burkina Faso Off Grid Wrenches I had a call from someone looking for an installer to do some off grid installations in Burkina Faso, Africa They have a school project they are working on If anyone does work in that part of the world would you get in touch and I will hook you up with Pascal Thanks Larry Larry Brown Sun Mountain 845-657-8096 Sunmountain at netstep.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Mar 25 16:17:34 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 16:17:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex AGS wiring harness replacement Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can get one? Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Mar 25 16:29:09 2019 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 15:29:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex AGS wiring harness replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0BB7FA8D-4C5B-4370-B433-B67186F376D0@mavericksolar.com> I have one handy, new from a warranty swap. Thank you, Maverick > On Mar 25, 2019, at 3:17 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Does anyone know where I can get one? > > Jason > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Mar 25 16:35:36 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 16:35:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints Message-ID: I have four inverter/chargers (master and 3 slaves) that are blowing past their 57.6V setpoint that I programmed and confirmed via the Context Combox. They are hitting 58.4V and tripping the battery management units on a set of Lithium Batts. Any ideas why this would happen? I can disable chargers on individual units, so I know the settings are getting uploaded via the Combox. Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Mon Mar 25 16:41:10 2019 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 20:41:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, Can you share the Battery Daily Summary from the ComBox? Only select the battery voltage so it is easier to see where the 0.8V jump is occurring. Also, what battery are you using? Thanks Sandra Herrera From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 1:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ I have four inverter/chargers (master and 3 slaves) that are blowing past their 57.6V setpoint that I programmed and confirmed via the Context Combox. They are hitting 58.4V and tripping the battery management units on a set of Lithium Batts. Any ideas why this would happen? I can disable chargers on individual units, so I know the settings are getting uploaded via the Combox. Jason Szumlanski ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Mar 25 16:46:05 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 13:46:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7e7785bfbb22fe4faade3aca791c3762@127.0.0.1> New set-up or old? Is the BTS causing this? If so set it to zero mv. More info --Dave On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 16:35:36 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I have four inverter/chargers (master and 3 slaves) that are blowing past their 57.6V setpoint that I programmed and confirmed via the Context Combox. They are hitting 58.4V and tripping the battery management units on a set of Lithium Batts. Any ideas why this would happen? I can disable chargers on individual units, so I know the settings are getting uploaded via the Combox. Jason Szumlanski -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 17:05:41 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 16:05:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is the chargingfrom the inverter orfrom a solar source? On Mon, Mar 25, 2019, 3:35 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I have four inverter/chargers (master and 3 slaves) that are blowing past > their 57.6V setpoint that I programmed and confirmed via the Context > Combox. They are hitting 58.4V and tripping the battery management units on > a set of Lithium Batts. Any ideas why this would happen? I can disable > chargers on individual units, so I know the settings are getting uploaded > via the Combox. > > Jason Szumlanski > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Mon Mar 25 17:17:01 2019 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 15:17:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shopping for an irradiance sensor that can connect to LAN local area network Message-ID: Thanks for the responses on this subject line. Beyond polling the Wrenches I reached out to various suppliers. The Wrench comments that the sensor itself is always RS-485 seem borne out by my separate research. Some sensor vendors are integrating the necessary accessories for connection straight to the LAN local area network--Rainwise PVmet-100 is one example although their irradiance sensor doesn't mount in the plane of the PV array. Other sensor vendors point to third party suppliers to convert the raw sensor feed into actionable data. This probably costs less in money if I can acquire the additional know how. We can close the thread now; Thanks & Jolliness. Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Mar 25 19:17:38 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 19:17:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a newly commissioned Lithionic LiPo battery on an old system that has been out of commission for over a year. 51V nominal battery. Logs are not possible. This happens within minutes of bulk charging initiation. There is no spike. It's a steady rise. Jason On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 4:41 PM Sandra Herrera wrote: > Jason, > > > > Can you share the Battery Daily Summary from the ComBox? Only select the > battery voltage so it is easier to see where the 0.8V jump is occurring. > > > > Also, what battery are you using? > > > > Thanks > > > > Sandra Herrera > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2019 1:36 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints > > > > [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] > ------------------------------ > > > > I have four inverter/chargers (master and 3 slaves) that are blowing past > their 57.6V setpoint that I programmed and confirmed via the Context > Combox. They are hitting 58.4V and tripping the battery management units on > a set of Lithium Batts. Any ideas why this would happen? I can disable > chargers on individual units, so I know the settings are getting uploaded > via the Combox. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Mar 25 19:23:54 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 19:23:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Inverter charging from generator input. I have each inverter set to 22A charge rate and 57.6 for bulk and absorb, no equalization (although the eq voltage is also set to 57.6V just in case). No solar at this time (yet!). I do have one other piece of information I just discovered. Two of the four inverters are reporting the battery voltage about 0.8V lower than the other two. I think this might be my issue. At rest two of the inverters show the battery voltage as 53.4V, which is the correct voltage as measured on my meter and on the battery BMS display. The other two inverters show 52.8V and 52.7V in the Combox diagnostics. I'm now thinking these two inverter battery voltage readings are the issue. Is there a way to calibrate the XW battery voltage readings? I suppose I could disable the chargers on these inverters, but that is not a permanent solution if that is found to be the issue. Jason On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 5:05 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: > Is the chargingfrom the inverter orfrom a solar source? > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2019, 3:35 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I have four inverter/chargers (master and 3 slaves) that are blowing past >> their 57.6V setpoint that I programmed and confirmed via the Context >> Combox. They are hitting 58.4V and tripping the battery management units on >> a set of Lithium Batts. Any ideas why this would happen? I can disable >> chargers on individual units, so I know the settings are getting uploaded >> via the Combox. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Mon Mar 25 17:48:52 2019 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 14:48:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Have you checked their voltage calibration against your DMM?Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com 530-448-9692on my Samsung Galaxy S7. -------- Original message --------From: Darryl Thayer Date: 3/25/19 2:05 PM (GMT-08:00) To: newrewrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints Is the chargingfrom the inverter orfrom a solar source?On Mon, Mar 25, 2019, 3:35 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote:I have four inverter/chargers (master and 3 slaves) that are blowing past their 57.6V setpoint that I programmed and confirmed via the Context Combox. They are hitting 58.4V and tripping the battery management units on a set of Lithium Batts. Any ideas why this would happen? I can disable chargers on individual units, so I know the settings are getting uploaded via the Combox. Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Mar 25 19:44:49 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 16:44:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c338868dca9f4c375a386c71e9945a4@127.0.0.1> For now I would just use one XW to charge. They are 130A chargers so set one to the percentage of charge to get the correct amps. Use the master. Disable the other 3 chargers by deselecting operating. Everything on an XW is DSP controlled and can be set. Maybe the "schneider lady" here can help. I did correct a problem like this and I had to use the "config tool" to do this. I also needed help from engineering and it was a long time ago. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 19:23:54 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Inverter charging from generator input. I have each inverter set to 22A charge rate and 57.6 for bulk and absorb, no equalization (although the eq voltage is also set to 57.6V just in case). No solar at this time (yet!). I do have one other piece of information I just discovered. Two of the four inverters are reporting the battery voltage about 0.8V lower than the other two. I think this might be my issue. At rest two of the inverters show the battery voltage as 53.4V, which is the correct voltage as measured on my meter and on the battery BMS display. The other two inverters show 52.8V and 52.7V in the Combox diagnostics. I'm now thinking these two inverter battery voltage readings are the issue. Is there a way to calibrate the XW battery voltage readings? I suppose I could disable the chargers on these inverters, but that is not a permanent solution if that is found to be the issue. Jason On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 5:05 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: Is the chargingfrom the inverter orfrom a solar source? On Mon, Mar 25, 2019, 3:35 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: I have four inverter/chargers (master and 3 slaves) that are blowing past their 57.6V setpoint that I programmed and confirmed via the Context Combox. They are hitting 58.4V and tripping the battery management units on a set of Lithium Batts. Any ideas why this would happen? I can disable chargers on individual units, so I know the settings are getting uploaded via the Combox. Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [12] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:darylsolar1 at gmail.com [4] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/76de0ffa0b699c86cd0b4f7f881d717bdcdc9a1c?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=1a48a4e0674dc2eb [7] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/af2a09d2e385b76ed9108412c0b991f785774f32?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=7132bcba4653cbaf [8] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/89e63c6dee261d9950a7e8c2baf0d4ed31d5ba96?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=eb3f82f74524c89c [9] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/7d3f0308bca9640e90b756c10fc7a750da41ad2f?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=45845c6414a16913 [10] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/74299e0dc27581f391ab703069c4b25c1ede364b?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=860f1fc6d319c737 [12] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/0a0309164611ebbfb494a6e9bff18179163879cc?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=b114947f84f0838d [13] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/e6cf7bb3b8a6c93eb88f217c85e2a99385c37b10?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=a7b398e8057c4426 [14] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/b4f0e496e08cb4809d10f7f73c7fe140785f88c9?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=d19cd457f8b48af5 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Mar 25 21:02:36 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 21:02:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints In-Reply-To: <8c338868dca9f4c375a386c71e9945a4@127.0.0.1> References: <8c338868dca9f4c375a386c71e9945a4@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Thanks. That's my next step - to isolate each inverter and see if only one is the offending unit. It's an 880ah battery with a desired charge rate of 200A, so ultimately I will need at least two inverters. I did rig up a 3000W solar array and was able to charge perfectly to my desired setpoint using XW charge controllers. It seems to be a calibration issue in one or multiple inverters, so I may need to resolve the discrepancies between actual and reported battery voltage or just adjust the setpoints to account for the discrepancy (not ideal). On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 7:59 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > For now I would just use one XW to charge. They are 130A chargers so set > one to the percentage of charge to get the correct amps. Use the master. > Disable the other 3 chargers by deselecting operating. Everything on an XW > is DSP controlled and can be set. Maybe the "schneider lady" here can help. > I did correct a problem like this and I had to use the "config tool" to do > this. I also needed help from engineering and it was a long time ago. > > Good Luck! > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 19:23:54 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Inverter charging from generator input. I have each inverter set to 22A > charge rate and 57.6 for bulk and absorb, no equalization (although the eq > voltage is also set to 57.6V just in case). > > No solar at this time (yet!). > > I do have one other piece of information I just discovered. Two of the > four inverters are reporting the battery voltage about 0.8V lower than the > other two. I think this might be my issue. At rest two of the inverters > show the battery voltage as 53.4V, which is the correct voltage as measured > on my meter and on the battery BMS display. The other two inverters show > 52.8V and 52.7V in the Combox diagnostics. I'm now thinking these two > inverter battery voltage readings are the issue. Is there a way to > calibrate the XW battery voltage readings? I suppose I could disable the > chargers on these inverters, but that is not a permanent solution if that > is found to be the issue. > > Jason > > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 5:05 PM Darryl Thayer > wrote: > >> Is the chargingfrom the inverter orfrom a solar source? >> >> On Mon, Mar 25, 2019, 3:35 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I have four inverter/chargers (master and 3 slaves) that are blowing >>> past their 57.6V setpoint that I programmed and confirmed via the Context >>> Combox. They are hitting 58.4V and tripping the battery management units on >>> a set of Lithium Batts. Any ideas why this would happen? I can disable >>> chargers on individual units, so I know the settings are getting uploaded >>> via the Combox. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Tue Mar 26 09:00:08 2019 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 13:00:08 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, The Battery daily summary from the ComBox is information on one day at a time, this is not part of the logs, and it should be available even if you have 1 hour or charging. However, based on your discovery of different DC voltages from the inverter, my recommendation is to calibrate them. Sandra From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 4:18 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ [https://mailtrack.io/trace/mail/77a04edaef4925e1dea70fe6def33d0503c9c1bf.png?u=1613865] This is a newly commissioned Lithionic LiPo battery on an old system that has been out of commission for over a year. 51V nominal battery. Logs are not possible. This happens within minutes of bulk charging initiation. There is no spike. It's a steady rise. Jason On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 4:41 PM Sandra Herrera > wrote: Jason, Can you share the Battery Daily Summary from the ComBox? Only select the battery voltage so it is easier to see where the 0.8V jump is occurring. Also, what battery are you using? Thanks Sandra Herrera From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 1:36 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ I have four inverter/chargers (master and 3 slaves) that are blowing past their 57.6V setpoint that I programmed and confirmed via the Context Combox. They are hitting 58.4V and tripping the battery management units on a set of Lithium Batts. Any ideas why this would happen? I can disable chargers on individual units, so I know the settings are getting uploaded via the Combox. Jason Szumlanski ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 09:26:48 2019 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 09:26:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason. I had that problem with an older XW and problem was corrupted firmware. It took many years to get Schneider to admit that the problem was not my installation or programming. New firmware fixed a nagging problem of runaway voltage and destroyed batteries. I also had found that resetting to factory defaults was causing some of the problem as the default for absorb was 6 hours instead of the one hour I or less that it should have been. Found that problem by resetting to factory defaults and then checking every setting. With the bad firmware I was seeing the charge rate and voltage setpoints totally ignored and saw battery go up to 67 volts! John Blittersdorf On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 4:35 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I have four inverter/chargers (master and 3 slaves) that are blowing past > their 57.6V setpoint that I programmed and confirmed via the Context > Combox. They are hitting 58.4V and tripping the battery management units on > a set of Lithium Batts. Any ideas why this would happen? I can disable > chargers on individual units, so I know the settings are getting uploaded > via the Combox. > > Jason Szumlanski > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 12:40:48 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 09:40:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dc discos Message-ID: <5CBB9F84-419D-4EB7-8EF7-4B7D79E039AE@gmail.com> Hi All I’m in need of a few single string 600v nema 1x discos. I’ve been looking at the IMO brand, they fit the bill and are low cost. Any comments pro/con and recommendations as to where to get them? Thx Jay Peltz power. From vtsolar at icloud.com Tue Mar 26 19:05:25 2019 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 19:05:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dc discos In-Reply-To: <5CBB9F84-419D-4EB7-8EF7-4B7D79E039AE@gmail.com> References: <5CBB9F84-419D-4EB7-8EF7-4B7D79E039AE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <75634DD6-BEBB-4BE4-8331-6856EAC71638@icloud.com> Hey Jay, Check out industrialcontroldirect.com. I found a 1000 vdc Nema 3R disco for $200. very compact. They appear to use the same switch mechanism as Solaredge inverter discos. UL/ETA listed and passed my local AHJ. Lots of similar discos for different voltages. Kirk Herander > On Mar 26, 2019, at 12:40 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi All > > I’m in need of a few single string 600v nema 1x discos. > > I’ve been looking at the IMO brand, they fit the bill and are low cost. > Any comments pro/con and recommendations as to where to get them? > > Thx > Jay > Peltz power. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Mar 26 18:25:00 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 18:25:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dc discos In-Reply-To: <5CBB9F84-419D-4EB7-8EF7-4B7D79E039AE@gmail.com> References: <5CBB9F84-419D-4EB7-8EF7-4B7D79E039AE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002f01d4e422$c9def480$5d9cdd80$@glbcc.com> Hi Jay, We have been using them at ground mounted arrays to allow us to de-energize anything in the trench (DC). They work fine, but need a little planning because of limited interior space for conductor bending and conduit entry points. We order them direct from IMO. -Glenn -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2019 12:41 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dc discos Hi All I’m in need of a few single string 600v nema 1x discos. I’ve been looking at the IMO brand, they fit the bill and are low cost. Any comments pro/con and recommendations as to where to get them? Thx Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From will at solarenergy.org Wed Mar 27 11:04:07 2019 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 11:04:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dc discos In-Reply-To: <5CBB9F84-419D-4EB7-8EF7-4B7D79E039AE@gmail.com> References: <5CBB9F84-419D-4EB7-8EF7-4B7D79E039AE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I saw one of their boxes, I believe it was the E-08W, on a job I recently inspected and I found the quality of the boxes to be pretty cheap. One of the posts that receives the screw for the cover was broken off and another was stripped because someone over tightened it which looks really easy to do. I can't imagine they'd hold up to much O&M work unless you never take the cover off. It did seem like a pretty nice solution but it's all plastic. Thanks, Will On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 1:11 PM Jay wrote: > Hi All > > I’m in need of a few single string 600v nema 1x discos. > > I’ve been looking at the IMO brand, they fit the bill and are low cost. > Any comments pro/con and recommendations as to where to get them? > > Thx > Jay > Peltz power. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 27 11:32:17 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 11:32:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can't even get 1 hour of charging. The voltage rises too quickly and the battery management systems disconnect the battery. What is the calibration process? I still plan to disable the chargers that are reporting the wrong (lower) voltage and see if the others (individually) still ignore the setpoints. It's a very remote location, so diagnostics are extremely difficult. On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 9:00 AM Sandra Herrera wrote: > Jason, > > > > The Battery daily summary from the ComBox is information on one day at a > time, this is not part of the logs, and it should be available even if you > have 1 hour or charging. > > > > However, based on your discovery of different DC voltages from the > inverter, my recommendation is to calibrate them. > > > > Sandra > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2019 4:18 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints > > > > [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] > ------------------------------ > > > > This is a newly commissioned Lithionic LiPo battery on an old system that > has been out of commission for over a year. 51V nominal battery. Logs are > not possible. This happens within minutes of bulk charging initiation. > There is no spike. It's a steady rise. > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 4:41 PM Sandra Herrera > wrote: > > Jason, > > > > Can you share the Battery Daily Summary from the ComBox? Only select the > battery voltage so it is easier to see where the 0.8V jump is occurring. > > > > Also, what battery are you using? > > > > Thanks > > > > Sandra Herrera > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2019 1:36 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints > > > > [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] > ------------------------------ > > > > I have four inverter/chargers (master and 3 slaves) that are blowing past > their 57.6V setpoint that I programmed and confirmed via the Context > Combox. They are hitting 58.4V and tripping the battery management units on > a set of Lithium Batts. Any ideas why this would happen? I can disable > chargers on individual units, so I know the settings are getting uploaded > via the Combox. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 27 11:34:17 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 11:34:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fortunately there are battery management systems for the parallel banks that are a failsafe, but the nuisance tripping is unacceptable and does not allow for an absorption time. Maybe I have the same issue... I have never updated an XW firmware before. I'll have to look into that. On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 9:27 AM John Blittersdorf < john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > Jason. > I had that problem with an older XW and problem was corrupted firmware. > It took many years to get Schneider to admit that the problem was not my > installation or programming. > New firmware fixed a nagging problem of runaway voltage and destroyed > batteries. I also had found that resetting to factory defaults was causing > some of the problem as the default for absorb was 6 hours instead of the > one hour I or less that it should have been. Found that problem by > resetting to factory defaults and then checking every setting. With the bad > firmware I was seeing the charge rate and voltage setpoints totally ignored > and saw battery go up to 67 volts! > > John Blittersdorf > > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 4:35 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I have four inverter/chargers (master and 3 slaves) that are blowing past >> their 57.6V setpoint that I programmed and confirmed via the Context >> Combox. They are hitting 58.4V and tripping the battery management units on >> a set of Lithium Batts. Any ideas why this would happen? I can disable >> chargers on individual units, so I know the settings are getting uploaded >> via the Combox. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Wed Mar 27 11:42:01 2019 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 15:42:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, Lets connect off-list direct email, I will need to send you a file. Also, this can only be done using the Cofig Tool. Sandra.herrera at se.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2019 8:32 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ [https://mailtrack.io/trace/mail/72c426fd7ef4b53eb1e42228450b27719ee791db.png?u=1613865] I can't even get 1 hour of charging. The voltage rises too quickly and the battery management systems disconnect the battery. What is the calibration process? I still plan to disable the chargers that are reporting the wrong (lower) voltage and see if the others (individually) still ignore the setpoints. It's a very remote location, so diagnostics are extremely difficult. On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 9:00 AM Sandra Herrera > wrote: Jason, The Battery daily summary from the ComBox is information on one day at a time, this is not part of the logs, and it should be available even if you have 1 hour or charging. However, based on your discovery of different DC voltages from the inverter, my recommendation is to calibrate them. Sandra From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 4:18 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ [X] This is a newly commissioned Lithionic LiPo battery on an old system that has been out of commission for over a year. 51V nominal battery. Logs are not possible. This happens within minutes of bulk charging initiation. There is no spike. It's a steady rise. Jason On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 4:41 PM Sandra Herrera > wrote: Jason, Can you share the Battery Daily Summary from the ComBox? Only select the battery voltage so it is easier to see where the 0.8V jump is occurring. Also, what battery are you using? Thanks Sandra Herrera From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 1:36 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ I have four inverter/chargers (master and 3 slaves) that are blowing past their 57.6V setpoint that I programmed and confirmed via the Context Combox. They are hitting 58.4V and tripping the battery management units on a set of Lithium Batts. Any ideas why this would happen? I can disable chargers on individual units, so I know the settings are getting uploaded via the Combox. Jason Szumlanski ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Mar 27 11:51:52 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 11:51:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dc discos In-Reply-To: <5CBB9F84-419D-4EB7-8EF7-4B7D79E039AE@gmail.com> References: <5CBB9F84-419D-4EB7-8EF7-4B7D79E039AE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005401d4e4b5$00efb530$02cf1f90$@glbcc.com> Just a pic of our typical application of the IMO. -Glenn -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2019 12:41 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dc discos Hi All I’m in need of a few single string 600v nema 1x discos. I’ve been looking at the IMO brand, they fit the bill and are low cost. Any comments pro/con and recommendations as to where to get them? Thx Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Bullock IMO.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 231490 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 27 12:06:51 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 12:06:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dc discos In-Reply-To: <005401d4e4b5$00efb530$02cf1f90$@glbcc.com> References: <5CBB9F84-419D-4EB7-8EF7-4B7D79E039AE@gmail.com> <005401d4e4b5$00efb530$02cf1f90$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: I'm happy to see others are using that PVC j-box from Sceptre. No screws to rust out! We use that JBX### line of boxes extensively. Jason On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 11:59 AM Glenn Burt wrote: > Just a pic of our typical application of the IMO. > > -Glenn > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Jay > Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2019 12:41 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dc discos > > Hi All > > I’m in need of a few single string 600v nema 1x discos. > > I’ve been looking at the IMO brand, they fit the bill and are low cost. > Any comments pro/con and recommendations as to where to get them? > > Thx > Jay > Peltz power. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Wed Mar 27 12:50:50 2019 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 12:50:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dc discos In-Reply-To: References: <5CBB9F84-419D-4EB7-8EF7-4B7D79E039AE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b801d4e4bd$3ce3a210$b6aae630$@icloud.com> The IMO plastic box is comparable to the Solaredge inverter DC disco in terms of wall thickness. And the switch itself is identical. In my case, I would prefer to pay $200 for a listed compact 4-pole 1000vdc disco than the $2k it costs for a SQD metal box version of the same specs which is much larger and heavier. And yes, you do need to take care when installing to avoid the issues Will discussed. A little common sense goes a long way to avoid stripped screws. Just my 2 cents worth. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Will White Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2019 11:04 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dc discos Jay, I saw one of their boxes, I believe it was the E-08W, on a job I recently inspected and I found the quality of the boxes to be pretty cheap. One of the posts that receives the screw for the cover was broken off and another was stripped because someone over tightened it which looks really easy to do. I can't imagine they'd hold up to much O&M work unless you never take the cover off. It did seem like a pretty nice solution but it's all plastic. Thanks, Will On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 1:11 PM Jay > wrote: Hi All I’m in need of a few single string 600v nema 1x discos. I’ve been looking at the IMO brand, they fit the bill and are low cost. Any comments pro/con and recommendations as to where to get them? Thx Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Will White Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy. Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From will at solarenergy.org Wed Mar 27 13:32:35 2019 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 13:32:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dc discos In-Reply-To: <00b801d4e4bd$3ce3a210$b6aae630$@icloud.com> References: <5CBB9F84-419D-4EB7-8EF7-4B7D79E039AE@gmail.com> <00b801d4e4bd$3ce3a210$b6aae630$@icloud.com> Message-ID: The one that I saw was not the rotary switch that's similar to the SolarEdge one, this was a box with multiple breakers in it for source circuits. On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 1:20 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > The IMO plastic box is comparable to the Solaredge inverter DC disco in > terms of wall thickness. And the switch itself is identical. In my case, I > would prefer to pay $200 for a listed compact 4-pole 1000vdc disco than the > $2k it costs for a SQD metal box version of the same specs which is much > larger and heavier. And yes, you do need to take care when installing to > avoid the issues Will discussed. A little common sense goes a long way to > avoid stripped screws. Just my 2 cents worth. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Will White > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2019 11:04 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Dc discos > > > > Jay, > > > > I saw one of their boxes, I believe it was the E-08W, on a job I recently > inspected and I found the quality of the boxes to be pretty cheap. One of > the posts that receives the screw for the cover was broken off and another > was stripped because someone over tightened it which looks really easy to > do. I can't imagine they'd hold up to much O&M work unless you never take > the cover off. > > > > It did seem like a pretty nice solution but it's all plastic. > > > > Thanks, > > Will > > > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 1:11 PM Jay wrote: > > Hi All > > I’m in need of a few single string 600v nema 1x discos. > > I’ve been looking at the IMO brand, they fit the bill and are low cost. > Any comments pro/con and recommendations as to where to get them? > > Thx > Jay > Peltz power. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > *Will White* > > Curriculum Developer > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > e: will at solarenergy.org > > w: www.solarenergy.org > > p: 802-272-3092 > > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > # 093006-34 > > > > *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power > the world with renewable energy.* > > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Wed Mar 27 13:41:35 2019 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 13:41:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dc discos In-Reply-To: References: <5CBB9F84-419D-4EB7-8EF7-4B7D79E039AE@gmail.com> <00b801d4e4bd$3ce3a210$b6aae630$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <00d301d4e4c4$533da9a0$f9b8fce0$@icloud.com> The IMO style that I I’ve used is identical to Burt’s photo. Just a switch, no overcurrent protection. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Will White Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2019 1:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dc discos The one that I saw was not the rotary switch that's similar to the SolarEdge one, this was a box with multiple breakers in it for source circuits. On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 1:20 PM Kirk Herander > wrote: The IMO plastic box is comparable to the Solaredge inverter DC disco in terms of wall thickness. And the switch itself is identical. In my case, I would prefer to pay $200 for a listed compact 4-pole 1000vdc disco than the $2k it costs for a SQD metal box version of the same specs which is much larger and heavier. And yes, you do need to take care when installing to avoid the issues Will discussed. A little common sense goes a long way to avoid stripped screws. Just my 2 cents worth. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Will White Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2019 11:04 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dc discos Jay, I saw one of their boxes, I believe it was the E-08W, on a job I recently inspected and I found the quality of the boxes to be pretty cheap. One of the posts that receives the screw for the cover was broken off and another was stripped because someone over tightened it which looks really easy to do. I can't imagine they'd hold up to much O&M work unless you never take the cover off. It did seem like a pretty nice solution but it's all plastic. Thanks, Will On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 1:11 PM Jay > wrote: Hi All I’m in need of a few single string 600v nema 1x discos. I’ve been looking at the IMO brand, they fit the bill and are low cost. Any comments pro/con and recommendations as to where to get them? Thx Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Will White Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy. Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Will White Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy. Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Mar 28 12:55:45 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 12:55:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy in PVC J-Box Message-ID: When mounting an Envoy on the supplied DIN rail in a PVC box wired via PVC conduit, is there any requirement to accompany the conductors with a ground wire? The envoy itself does not have a ground connection and the only exposed metallic part is the DIN rail. I'm thinking I need to mount a ground lug in the PVC box so the circuit conductors have a ground wire in the conduit. I have always used the IQ combiner even for larger systems because it was just easier. I'm considering changing to a regular PVC junction box with just an Envoy. While on the subject, if there is ample space within a load center, would it be permissible to mount the Envoy right inside the enclosure? 400A plus load centers in residential settings often have a lot of empty space! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Mar 28 14:43:04 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 14:43:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy in PVC J-Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you are using the IQ Combiner, the wiring diagram is on the inside cover.  Coming from the array, L1, L2 and G. Going to the utility interconnection, L1, L2, G, N.  L1, L2 into the 20a breakers, G to the G busbar, N to the N busbar.  It's all there and is a nice package I think.  My personal preference is to use manufacturer's equipment instead of making my own. I don't know if the AHJ would complain about non-listed equipment in the case of making your own DAS center. The Envoy may need a button pushed once in a while.  I have asked customers to do this to save a trip. The Enphase "package" is safe for them to do that.  I hope I did not miss your question. Chris On 3/28/2019 12:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > When mounting an Envoy on the supplied DIN rail in a PVC box wired via > PVC conduit, is there any requirement to accompany the conductors with > a ground wire? The envoy itself does not have a ground connection and > the only exposed metallic part is the DIN rail. > > I'm thinking I need to mount a ground lug in the PVC box so the > circuit conductors have a ground wire in the conduit. I have always > used the IQ combiner even for larger systems because it was just > easier. I'm considering changing to a regular PVC junction box with > just an Envoy. > > While on the subject, if there is ample space within a load center, > would it be permissible to mount the Envoy right inside the enclosure? > 400A plus load centers in residential settings often have a lot of > empty space! > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Thu Mar 28 15:58:18 2019 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 19:58:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy in PVC J-Box In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: If you locate the envoy in a metal enclosure the WiFi connection will most likely not work. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Christopher Warfel Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2019 2:43:04 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy in PVC J-Box If you are using the IQ Combiner, the wiring diagram is on the inside cover. Coming from the array, L1, L2 and G. Going to the utility interconnection, L1, L2, G, N. L1, L2 into the 20a breakers, G to the G busbar, N to the N busbar. It's all there and is a nice package I think. My personal preference is to use manufacturer's equipment instead of making my own. I don't know if the AHJ would complain about non-listed equipment in the case of making your own DAS center. The Envoy may need a button pushed once in a while. I have asked customers to do this to save a trip. The Enphase "package" is safe for them to do that. I hope I did not miss your question. Chris On 3/28/2019 12:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: When mounting an Envoy on the supplied DIN rail in a PVC box wired via PVC conduit, is there any requirement to accompany the conductors with a ground wire? The envoy itself does not have a ground connection and the only exposed metallic part is the DIN rail. I'm thinking I need to mount a ground lug in the PVC box so the circuit conductors have a ground wire in the conduit. I have always used the IQ combiner even for larger systems because it was just easier. I'm considering changing to a regular PVC junction box with just an Envoy. While on the subject, if there is ample space within a load center, would it be permissible to mount the Envoy right inside the enclosure? 400A plus load centers in residential settings often have a lot of empty space! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Mar 28 16:08:56 2019 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 16:08:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries Message-ID: G'Day All, Came across an older DIY 24v off-grid system. Looking to replace current AGM SunXtender batteries with less then 4 years on them but severely abused. Client won't go for my normal Rolls/Surrette because they are very sensitive to smells. Thus I was considering LiFePo4 batteries however I'm having difficulties locating them in a 24v bank. If you know of anyone that goes that way please let me know. So if I'm stuck with AGM's stored indoors what brand would you suggest for a heavy usage (1,500 Ahrs +) home? Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Thu Mar 28 16:12:56 2019 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 13:12:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Simpliphi has 24V Lithium On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:09 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'Day All, > > Came across an older DIY 24v off-grid system. Looking to replace current > AGM SunXtender batteries with less then 4 years on them but severely > abused. Client won't go for my normal Rolls/Surrette because they are very > sensitive to smells. > > Thus I was considering LiFePo4 batteries however I'm having difficulties > locating them in a 24v bank. If you know of anyone that goes that way > please let me know. > > So if I'm stuck with AGM's stored indoors what brand would you suggest for > a heavy usage (1,500 Ahrs +) home? > > Thanks, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Mar 28 16:19:55 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 13:19:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, That is a big battery you need. I think you should take them to 48V. Both Iron Edison and Discover AES build LFP solutions without having to parallel too many batteries. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 16:08:56 -0400, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'Day All, Came across an older DIY 24v off-grid system. Looking to replace current AGM SunXtender batteries with less then 4 years on them but severely abused. Client won't go for my normal Rolls/Surrette because they are very sensitive to smells. Thus I was considering LiFePo4 batteries however I'm having difficulties locating them in a 24v bank. If you know of anyone that goes that way please let me know. So if I'm stuck with AGM's stored indoors what brand would you suggest for a heavy usage (1,500 Ahrs +) home? Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [4] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [5]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://webmail.sti.net/http:www.solarandwindfx.com [4] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [5] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 16:24:20 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 13:24:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37CDEF0B-A12B-4F6C-B7BD-88CE91C174AD@gmail.com> Hi Christopher I’d look at Discover battery. Have external monitors, battery to battery comm And Xanbus if you have Schneider inverters. It seems more advanced than Simpliphi Jay Peltz power. > On Mar 28, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: > > Simpliphi has 24V Lithium > >> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:09 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: >> G'Day All, >> >> Came across an older DIY 24v off-grid system. Looking to replace current AGM SunXtender batteries with less then 4 years on them but severely abused. Client won't go for my normal Rolls/Surrette because they are very sensitive to smells. >> >> Thus I was considering LiFePo4 batteries however I'm having difficulties locating them in a 24v bank. If you know of anyone that goes that way please let me know. >> >> So if I'm stuck with AGM's stored indoors what brand would you suggest for a heavy usage (1,500 Ahrs +) home? >> >> Thanks, >> Christopher- >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > > Loren Ortiz > Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid > > loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com > > Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 Fax: 530-274-7518 > > > > > > > Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Thu Mar 28 15:25:17 2019 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 19:25:17 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy in PVC J-Box In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Jason and Christopher, We provide installation recommendations for installing an Envoy in a separate enclosure on pages 12-16 of our IQ Planning Guide found here. This tech brief doesn't address Jason's code questions, though. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager, Envoy and Accessories (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Christopher Warfel Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2019 11:43 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy in PVC J-Box EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. If you are using the IQ Combiner, the wiring diagram is on the inside cover. Coming from the array, L1, L2 and G. Going to the utility interconnection, L1, L2, G, N. L1, L2 into the 20a breakers, G to the G busbar, N to the N busbar. It's all there and is a nice package I think. My personal preference is to use manufacturer's equipment instead of making my own. I don't know if the AHJ would complain about non-listed equipment in the case of making your own DAS center. The Envoy may need a button pushed once in a while. I have asked customers to do this to save a trip. The Enphase "package" is safe for them to do that. I hope I did not miss your question. Chris On 3/28/2019 12:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: When mounting an Envoy on the supplied DIN rail in a PVC box wired via PVC conduit, is there any requirement to accompany the conductors with a ground wire? The envoy itself does not have a ground connection and the only exposed metallic part is the DIN rail. I'm thinking I need to mount a ground lug in the PVC box so the circuit conductors have a ground wire in the conduit. I have always used the IQ combiner even for larger systems because it was just easier. I'm considering changing to a regular PVC junction box with just an Envoy. While on the subject, if there is ample space within a load center, would it be permissible to mount the Envoy right inside the enclosure? 400A plus load centers in residential settings often have a lot of empty space! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Mar 28 16:39:59 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 14:39:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9ee98cc3-bf60-7271-73bd-f65cbda1a67f@solarray.com> Both Simpliphi and Life Blue can be set up in 24 v configurations. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/28/19 2:08 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'Day All, > > Came across an older DIY 24v off-grid system. Looking to replace > current AGM  SunXtender batteries with less then 4 years on them but > severely abused. Client won't go for my normal Rolls/Surrette because > they are very sensitive to smells. > > Thus I was considering LiFePo4 batteries however I'm having > difficulties locating them in a 24v bank. If you know of anyone that > goes that way please let me know. > > So if I'm stuck with AGM's stored indoors what brand would you suggest > for a heavy usage (1,500 Ahrs +) home? > > Thanks, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com / > > / > / > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Thu Mar 28 18:07:20 2019 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 15:07:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: <9ee98cc3-bf60-7271-73bd-f65cbda1a67f@solarray.com> References: <9ee98cc3-bf60-7271-73bd-f65cbda1a67f@solarray.com> Message-ID: <032501d4e5b2$9e2325f0$da6971d0$@greenwired.com> Also Relion, https://relionbattery.com/products/lithium Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 F: 707-923-2077 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2019 1:40 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries Both Simpliphi and Life Blue can be set up in 24 v configurations. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/28/19 2:08 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'Day All, Came across an older DIY 24v off-grid system. Looking to replace current AGM SunXtender batteries with less then 4 years on them but severely abused. Client won't go for my normal Rolls/Surrette because they are very sensitive to smells. Thus I was considering LiFePo4 batteries however I'm having difficulties locating them in a 24v bank. If you know of anyone that goes that way please let me know. So if I'm stuck with AGM's stored indoors what brand would you suggest for a heavy usage (1,500 Ahrs +) home? Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Mar 28 23:03:46 2019 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 03:03:46 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, The East Penn UnigyII 2V AGM batteries would be my recommendation. Can go up to 2,100 Ah with single string of 12 x 2V cells. More if you parallel of course. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer Sent: March-28-19 1:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries G'Day All, Came across an older DIY 24v off-grid system. Looking to replace current AGM SunXtender batteries with less then 4 years on them but severely abused. Client won't go for my normal Rolls/Surrette because they are very sensitive to smells. Thus I was considering LiFePo4 batteries however I'm having difficulties locating them in a 24v bank. If you know of anyone that goes that way please let me know. So if I'm stuck with AGM's stored indoors what brand would you suggest for a heavy usage (1,500 Ahrs +) home? Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s [http://www.solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Solar-Wind-FX-Logo.png] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [http://solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/certs.jpg] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Mar 29 00:00:38 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 21:00:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches I agree with Kevin, the Unigyll are a great option, simplify would not not even be on my top 10. Jerry On Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 8:55 PM Kevin Pegg wrote: > Hi, > > > > The East Penn UnigyII 2V AGM batteries would be my recommendation. Can go > up to 2,100 Ah with single string of 12 x 2V cells. More if you parallel of > course. > > > > Kevin > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer > *Sent:* March-28-19 1:09 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries > > > > G'Day All, > > > > Came across an older DIY 24v off-grid system. Looking to replace current > AGM SunXtender batteries with less then 4 years on them but severely > abused. Client won't go for my normal Rolls/Surrette because they are very > sensitive to smells. > > > > Thus I was considering LiFePo4 batteries however I'm having difficulties > locating them in a 24v bank. If you know of anyone that goes that way > please let me know. > > > > So if I'm stuck with AGM's stored indoors what brand would you suggest for > a heavy usage (1,500 Ahrs +) home? > > > > Thanks, > > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Mar 29 11:51:09 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 11:51:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jerry, I'm looking at all the lithium options out there for an application phycisist client who wants a lithium backup system. Can you elaborate on why Simplify is slow low on your list? Thanks, Howie On Fri, Mar 29, 2019, 12:00 AM Jerry Shafer Wrenches > I agree with Kevin, the Unigyll are a great option, simplify would not not > even be on my top 10. > Jerry > > On Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 8:55 PM Kevin Pegg > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> >> >> The East Penn UnigyII 2V AGM batteries would be my recommendation. Can go >> up to 2,100 Ah with single string of 12 x 2V cells. More if you parallel of >> course. >> >> >> >> Kevin >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer >> *Sent:* March-28-19 1:09 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries >> >> >> >> G'Day All, >> >> >> >> Came across an older DIY 24v off-grid system. Looking to replace current >> AGM SunXtender batteries with less then 4 years on them but severely >> abused. Client won't go for my normal Rolls/Surrette because they are very >> sensitive to smells. >> >> >> >> Thus I was considering LiFePo4 batteries however I'm having difficulties >> locating them in a 24v bank. If you know of anyone that goes that way >> please let me know. >> >> >> >> So if I'm stuck with AGM's stored indoors what brand would you suggest >> for a heavy usage (1,500 Ahrs +) home? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Christopher- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Fri Mar 29 12:05:43 2019 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 09:05:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <035c01d4e649$43c48260$cb4d8720$@greenwired.com> Hey Howie, I would recommend staying away from them as well, I had a faulty battery out of the box and it was a nightmare to get them to warranty it, took about 2 months of back and forth for them to agree to warranty the battery. Discover has an excellent YouTube video on the breakdown of the internals theirs vs. the competitor and it’s pretty eye opening. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 F: 707-923-2077 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 8:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries Jerry, I'm looking at all the lithium options out there for an application phycisist client who wants a lithium backup system. Can you elaborate on why Simplify is slow low on your list? Thanks, Howie On Fri, Mar 29, 2019, 12:00 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: Hi, The East Penn UnigyII 2V AGM batteries would be my recommendation. Can go up to 2,100 Ah with single string of 12 x 2V cells. More if you parallel of course. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer Sent: March-28-19 1:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries G'Day All, Came across an older DIY 24v off-grid system. Looking to replace current AGM SunXtender batteries with less then 4 years on them but severely abused. Client won't go for my normal Rolls/Surrette because they are very sensitive to smells. Thus I was considering LiFePo4 batteries however I'm having difficulties locating them in a 24v bank. If you know of anyone that goes that way please let me know. So if I'm stuck with AGM's stored indoors what brand would you suggest for a heavy usage (1,500 Ahrs +) home? Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Mar 29 12:11:31 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 09:11:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie, My main reason is zero monitoring. And that is the reason all cabling is supposed to be the same lengths, to try and use each battery equally because they don’t talk to each other. It’s why I like the Discoverer. Many batteries have Bluetooth info, but they have that and external gauge and for Schneider, they are Xanbus comm ready. Jay Peltz Power. > On Mar 29, 2019, at 8:51 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Jerry, > I'm looking at all the lithium options out there for an application phycisist client who wants a lithium backup system. Can you elaborate on why Simplify is slow low on your list? > Thanks, > Howie > > >> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019, 12:00 AM Jerry Shafer > Wrenches >> I agree with Kevin, the Unigyll are a great option, simplify would not not even be on my top 10. >> Jerry >> >>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 8:55 PM Kevin Pegg wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> >>> >>> The East Penn UnigyII 2V AGM batteries would be my recommendation. Can go up to 2,100 Ah with single string of 12 x 2V cells. More if you parallel of course. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer >>> Sent: March-28-19 1:09 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries >>> >>> >>> >>> G'Day All, >>> >>> >>> >>> Came across an older DIY 24v off-grid system. Looking to replace current AGM SunXtender batteries with less then 4 years on them but severely abused. Client won't go for my normal Rolls/Surrette because they are very sensitive to smells. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thus I was considering LiFePo4 batteries however I'm having difficulties locating them in a 24v bank. If you know of anyone that goes that way please let me know. >>> >>> >>> >>> So if I'm stuck with AGM's stored indoors what brand would you suggest for a heavy usage (1,500 Ahrs +) home? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Christopher- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevin at ecohousesolar.com Fri Mar 29 13:19:47 2019 From: kevin at ecohousesolar.com (Kevin Eigel) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 13:19:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dealing with HOAs. Message-ID: We have a customer whose HOA is disapproving his plans to install all black panels on the front (south facing) roof of his house. Does anyone have any suggestions about getting this project through. In my opinion, HOAs should not be able to stop a solar project. Kevin Eigel Ecohouse Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Mar 29 13:23:45 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 10:23:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dealing with HOAs. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Check state and local regulations first. Suggest home owner recruit allies of other home owners. Then it’s a matter of diplomacy. William > On Mar 29, 2019, at 10:19 AM, Kevin Eigel wrote: > > We have a customer whose HOA is disapproving his plans to install all black panels on the front (south facing) roof of his house. Does anyone have any suggestions about getting this project through. In my opinion, HOAs should not be able to stop a solar project. > > Kevin Eigel > Ecohouse Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Mar 29 13:34:28 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 10:34:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dealing with HOAs. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5c9e5727.1c69fb81.af491.b048@mx.google.com> WrenchesYes HOA's might be able to restrict pv under state law depending on your state, in Hawaii the rule is multi-family joined over 2 stories  they can say no, they can also restrict size to. You need to read the AOAO rules, know the state law pertaining  to your particular type of structure. They may be wrong but you need to be prepared to go to the board meetings and get answers. What state are you in?JerrySent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Kevin Eigel Date: 3/29/19 10:19 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dealing with HOAs. We have a customer whose HOA is disapproving his plans to install all black panels on the front (south facing) roof of his house. Does anyone have any suggestions about getting this project through. In my opinion, HOAs should not be able to stop a solar project.Kevin EigelEcohouse Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Mar 29 14:01:21 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 11:01:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9be48833c053d7706661ab6514de328f@127.0.0.1> Agree with Jay and adding they are too small in capacity. Even the Discover at 6.6kwh is on the edge. However, as Jay said, they do talk with each other and have a mode where they will work with Outback and Magnum. They are the cats meow on a Schneider system as there is not much to program. Dave Angelini / Offgrid Solar On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 09:11:31 -0700, Jay wrote: Hi Howie, My main reason is zero monitoring. And that is the reason all cabling is supposed to be the same lengths, to try and use each battery equally because they don't talk to each other. It's why I like the Discoverer. Many batteries have Bluetooth info, but they have that and external gauge and for Schneider, they are Xanbus comm ready. Jay Peltz Power. On Mar 29, 2019, at 8:51 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Jerry, I'm looking at all the lithium options out there for an application phycisist client who wants a lithium backup system. Can you elaborate on why Simplify is slow low on your list? Thanks, Howie On Fri, Mar 29, 2019, 12:00 AM Jerry Shafer Links: ------ [1] mailto:Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com [2] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [3] mailto:KPegg at energyalternatives.ca [4] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [7] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [8] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [9] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [12] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [17] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [19] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [20] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [22] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [23] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [24] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [25] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Mar 29 14:54:36 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 11:54:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: <9be48833c053d7706661ab6514de328f@127.0.0.1> References: <9be48833c053d7706661ab6514de328f@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: A pix of one on the Gateway. Discover uses the same firmware as the conext battery monitor. On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 11:01:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Agree with Jay and adding they are too small in capacity. Even the Discover at 6.6kwh is on the edge. However, as Jay said, they do talk with each other and have a mode where they will work with Outback and Magnum. They are the cats meow on a Schneider system as there is not much to program. Dave Angelini / Offgrid Solar On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 09:11:31 -0700, Jay wrote: Hi Howie, My main reason is zero monitoring. And that is the reason all cabling is supposed to be the same lengths, to try and use each battery equally because they don't talk to each other. It's why I like the Discoverer. Many batteries have Bluetooth info, but they have that and external gauge and for Schneider, they are Xanbus comm ready. Jay Peltz Power. On Mar 29, 2019, at 8:51 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Jerry, I'm looking at all the lithium options out there for an application phycisist client who wants a lithium backup system. Can you elaborate on why Simplify is slow low on your list? Thanks, Howie On Fri, Mar 29, 2019, 12:00 AM Jerry Shafer Links: ------ [1] mailto:Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com [2] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [3] mailto:KPegg at energyalternatives.ca [4] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [7] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [8] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [9] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [12] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [17] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [19] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [20] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [22] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [23] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [24] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [25] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [26] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [27] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Discover AES on gateway.png Type: image/png Size: 141767 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kevin at ecohousesolar.com Fri Mar 29 18:04:44 2019 From: kevin at ecohousesolar.com (Kevin Eigel) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 18:04:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dealing with HOAs. In-Reply-To: <5c9e5727.1c69fb81.af491.b048@mx.google.com> References: <5c9e5727.1c69fb81.af491.b048@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Thanks Jerry. This project is in Ohio Kevin Eigel On Fri, Mar 29, 2019, 1:34 PM jerrysgarage01 wrote: > Wrenches > Yes HOA's might be able to restrict pv under state law depending on your > state, in Hawaii the rule is multi-family joined over 2 stories they can > say no, they can also restrict size to. You need to read the AOAO rules, > know the state law pertaining to your particular type of structure. > They may be wrong but you need to be prepared to go to the board meetings > and get answers. What state are you in? > Jerry > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Kevin Eigel > Date: 3/29/19 10:19 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dealing with HOAs. > > We have a customer whose HOA is disapproving his plans to install all > black panels on the front (south facing) roof of his house. Does anyone > have any suggestions about getting this project through. In my opinion, > HOAs should not be able to stop a solar project. > > Kevin Eigel > Ecohouse Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Fri Mar 29 21:05:00 2019 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 01:05:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dealing with HOAs. In-Reply-To: References: <5c9e5727.1c69fb81.af491.b048@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <493778645.12267497.1553907900547@mail.yahoo.com> Looks like HOAs can block solar in Ohio. Here's a link to Ohio info that may help negotiating an easement https://www.solarunitedneighbors.org/ohio/learn-the-issues-in-ohio/homeowners-associations-and-solar-access-in-ohio/ What folks need is a right to sunshine. Kinda goes with clean air and water.  regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com On Friday, March 29, 2019, 6:05:03 PM EDT, Kevin Eigel wrote: Thanks Jerry. This project is in Ohio Kevin Eigel On Fri, Mar 29, 2019, 1:34 PM jerrysgarage01 wrote: WrenchesYes HOA's might be able to restrict pv under state law depending on your state, in Hawaii the rule is multi-family joined over 2 stories  they can say no, they can also restrict size to. You need to read the AOAO rules, know the state law pertaining  to your particular type of structure. They may be wrong but you need to be prepared to go to the board meetings and get answers. What state are you in?Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Kevin Eigel Date: 3/29/19 10:19 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dealing with HOAs. We have a customer whose HOA is disapproving his plans to install all black panels on the front (south facing) roof of his house. Does anyone have any suggestions about getting this project through. In my opinion, HOAs should not be able to stop a solar project. Kevin EigelEcohouse Solar_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at seesolar.com Fri Mar 29 21:26:21 2019 From: max at seesolar.com (Max Balchowsky) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 18:26:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dealing with HOAs. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ck the current “solar access” laws, I haven’t felt with that in years, but when we did a lot of residential solar there were laws, at least in California that prohibited HOA’s from doing that..... On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 10:20 AM Kevin Eigel wrote: > We have a customer whose HOA is disapproving his plans to install all > black panels on the front (south facing) roof of his house. Does anyone > have any suggestions about getting this project through. In my opinion, > HOAs should not be able to stop a solar project. > > Kevin Eigel > Ecohouse Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Mar 30 00:42:04 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 21:42:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6af485cf-13ad-8777-71e6-bfdbacd9731c@psln.com> If you download the Discover Installation manual, page 6 and 7, they state the cables should also be the same length. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 3/29/2019 9:11 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi Howie, > > My main reason is zero monitoring. > And that is the reason all cabling is supposed to be the same lengths, > to try and use each battery equally because they don’t talk to each > other. > > > It’s why I like the Discoverer. Many batteries have Bluetooth info, > but they have that and external gauge and for Schneider, they are > Xanbus comm ready. > > Jay > > Peltz Power. > > On Mar 29, 2019, at 8:51 AM, Howie Michaelson > > wrote: > >> Jerry, >> I'm looking at all the lithium options out there for an application >> phycisist client who wants a lithium backup system. Can you elaborate >> on why Simplify is slow low on your list? >> Thanks, >> Howie >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019, 12:00 AM Jerry Shafer > wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> I agree with Kevin, the Unigyll are a great option, simplify >> would not not even be on my top 10. >> Jerry >> >> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 8:55 PM Kevin Pegg >> > > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> The East Penn UnigyII 2V AGM batteries would be my >> recommendation. Can go up to 2,100 Ah with single string of >> 12 x 2V cells. More if you parallel of course. >> >> Kevin >> >> --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Sat Mar 30 15:47:45 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 19:47:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Jason, This isn’t an AC coupled system is it? There is a very common issue that can occur when you AC couple XWs on lithium batteries. If this is AC coupled, I’ll go into more detail on what I think your problem might be. Also, let us know if you got it fixed. Thanks, Kienan maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 On Mar 27, 2019, at 9:42 AM, Sandra Herrera > wrote: Jason, Lets connect off-list direct email, I will need to send you a file. Also, this can only be done using the Cofig Tool. Sandra.herrera at se.com From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2019 8:32 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ [https://mailtrack.io/trace/mail/72c426fd7ef4b53eb1e42228450b27719ee791db.png?u=1613865] I can't even get 1 hour of charging. The voltage rises too quickly and the battery management systems disconnect the battery. What is the calibration process? I still plan to disable the chargers that are reporting the wrong (lower) voltage and see if the others (individually) still ignore the setpoints. It's a very remote location, so diagnostics are extremely difficult. On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 9:00 AM Sandra Herrera > wrote: Jason, The Battery daily summary from the ComBox is information on one day at a time, this is not part of the logs, and it should be available even if you have 1 hour or charging. However, based on your discovery of different DC voltages from the inverter, my recommendation is to calibrate them. Sandra From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 4:18 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ [X] This is a newly commissioned Lithionic LiPo battery on an old system that has been out of commission for over a year. 51V nominal battery. Logs are not possible. This happens within minutes of bulk charging initiation. There is no spike. It's a steady rise. Jason On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 4:41 PM Sandra Herrera > wrote: Jason, Can you share the Battery Daily Summary from the ComBox? Only select the battery voltage so it is easier to see where the 0.8V jump is occurring. Also, what battery are you using? Thanks Sandra Herrera From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 1:36 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ I have four inverter/chargers (master and 3 slaves) that are blowing past their 57.6V setpoint that I programmed and confirmed via the Context Combox. They are hitting 58.4V and tripping the battery management units on a set of Lithium Batts. Any ideas why this would happen? I can disable chargers on individual units, so I know the settings are getting uploaded via the Combox. Jason Szumlanski ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Apr 1 06:38:59 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 06:38:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: DC Coupled, but solar is disabled at this time. I haven't been back to the site, but I plan to test each inverter individually with the other three chargers disabled to see if there is one offender. On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 3:47 PM Kienan Maxfield wrote: > Jason, > > This isn’t an AC coupled system is it? There is a very common issue that > can occur when you AC couple XWs on lithium batteries. > > If this is AC coupled, I’ll go into more detail on what I think your > problem might be. Also, let us know if you got it fixed. > > Thanks, > Kienan > maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com > (801) 631-5584 > > > > On Mar 27, 2019, at 9:42 AM, Sandra Herrera wrote: > > Jason, > > > > Lets connect off-list direct email, I will need to send you a file. > > > > Also, this can only be done using the Cofig Tool. > > > > Sandra.herrera at se.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 27, 2019 8:32 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints > > > > [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] > ------------------------------ > > > > I can't even get 1 hour of charging. The voltage rises too quickly and the > battery management systems disconnect the battery. > > > > What is the calibration process? > > > > I still plan to disable the chargers that are reporting the wrong (lower) > voltage and see if the others (individually) still ignore the setpoints. > It's a very remote location, so diagnostics are extremely difficult. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 9:00 AM Sandra Herrera > wrote: > > Jason, > > > > The Battery daily summary from the ComBox is information on one day at a > time, this is not part of the logs, and it should be available even if you > have 1 hour or charging. > > > > However, based on your discovery of different DC voltages from the > inverter, my recommendation is to calibrate them. > > > > Sandra > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2019 4:18 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints > > > > [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] > ------------------------------ > > > > This is a newly commissioned Lithionic LiPo battery on an old system that > has been out of commission for over a year. 51V nominal battery. Logs are > not possible. This happens within minutes of bulk charging initiation. > There is no spike. It's a steady rise. > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 4:41 PM Sandra Herrera > wrote: > > Jason, > > > > Can you share the Battery Daily Summary from the ComBox? Only select the > battery voltage so it is easier to see where the 0.8V jump is occurring. > > > > Also, what battery are you using? > > > > Thanks > > > > Sandra Herrera > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2019 1:36 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW6048 (quad) blowing past setpoints > > > > [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] > ------------------------------ > > > > I have four inverter/chargers (master and 3 slaves) that are blowing past > their 57.6V setpoint that I programmed and confirmed via the Context > Combox. They are hitting 58.4V and tripping the battery management units on > a set of Lithium Batts. Any ideas why this would happen? I can disable > chargers on individual units, so I know the settings are getting uploaded > via the Combox. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Apr 1 06:40:56 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 06:40:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just replaced a 48V Lithionics battery with a 51V and I saw on their spec sheet that they do 12V and 24V as well. It seems like a very solid battery and BMS, but I have limited information on longevity. On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 4:09 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'Day All, > > Came across an older DIY 24v off-grid system. Looking to replace current > AGM SunXtender batteries with less then 4 years on them but severely > abused. Client won't go for my normal Rolls/Surrette because they are very > sensitive to smells. > > Thus I was considering LiFePo4 batteries however I'm having difficulties > locating them in a 24v bank. If you know of anyone that goes that way > please let me know. > > So if I'm stuck with AGM's stored indoors what brand would you suggest for > a heavy usage (1,500 Ahrs +) home? > > Thanks, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Apr 1 06:55:30 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 06:55:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy in PVC J-Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Somewhat unrelated is the confusion about AC branch circuit OCPD in an Enphase IQ system. My understanding was that each branch circuit could be protected by a 20A breaker, but I always designed it for minimum branch circuit OCPD at 1.25 x combined inverter output circuit rating. The Original IQ Combiner had 20A breakers preinstalled, so that was not an option. The IQ design guide states that for the Combiner+ and Combiner 3 that the installer should select breakers with the correct amp rating. The M series design guide stated that 1.25 x combined inverter output circuit rating should be used. But it seems that Enphase would approve of 20A circuit protection regardless of how the string is populated (up to the max). Back to the original thread - I'm thinking that a grounding conductor should run with the circuit conductors and just terminate on a lug or ground bar even if it's all PVC. As for whether the DIN rail needs to be bonded - no idea on that one... I could argue that it is not exposed if it is behind the Envoy I suppose. Jason On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 4:29 PM Nick Soleil wrote: > Hi Jason and Christopher, > > > We provide installation recommendations for installing an Envoy in a > separate enclosure on pages 12-16 of our IQ Planning Guide found here. > This > tech brief doesn't address Jason's code questions, though. > > > Cordially, > > Nick Soleil > > Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager, Envoy and Accessories > > (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office > > (707) 321-2937 // cell > > *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System > > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Christopher Warfel > *Sent:* Thursday, March 28, 2019 11:43 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy in PVC J-Box > > *EXTERNAL EMAIL* - *Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or > downloading attachments.* > > > > > > If you are using the IQ Combiner, the wiring diagram is on the inside > cover. Coming from the array, L1, L2 and G. Going to the utility > interconnection, L1, L2, G, N. L1, L2 into the 20a breakers, G to the G > busbar, N to the N busbar. It's all there and is a nice package I think. > My personal preference is to use manufacturer's equipment instead of making > my own. I don't know if the AHJ would complain about non-listed equipment > in the case of making your own DAS center. The Envoy may need a button > pushed once in a while. I have asked customers to do this to save a trip. > The Enphase "package" is safe for them to do that. I hope I did not miss > your question. Chris > On 3/28/2019 12:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > When mounting an Envoy on the supplied DIN rail in a PVC box wired via PVC > conduit, is there any requirement to accompany the conductors with a ground > wire? The envoy itself does not have a ground connection and the only > exposed metallic part is the DIN rail. > > I'm thinking I need to mount a ground lug in the PVC box so the circuit > conductors have a ground wire in the conduit. I have always used the IQ > combiner even for larger systems because it was just easier. I'm > considering changing to a regular PVC junction box with just an Envoy. > > While on the subject, if there is ample space within a load center, would > it be permissible to mount the Envoy right inside the enclosure? 400A plus > load centers in residential settings often have a lot of empty space! > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Mon Apr 1 07:08:10 2019 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Rich Nicol) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 07:08:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Inverters - Digital Clocks Losing Time? Message-ID: <00b301d4e87b$31e96db0$95bc4910$@solartechvt.com> Hello Wrenches I have a site with two PAE 48v Magnum inverters stacked. System voltage fluctuates ~ +/- 4 volts ranging from 243 to 247. Evenly split on the two lines. Site has a few electrical peculiarities I haven’t seen on the many other sites I have with Magnum inverters. Among those is three digital clocks on appliances that lose ~ 5 min per day consistently. A forth clock which is on a weather station with a transformer where it plugs into a receptacle keeps time and of course the computers do as they are web connected. I checked all neutral connections and verified proper N-G bond. All connections appropriately torqued. My recollection is the modest voltage swings are within Magnum spec. But its constantly moving about which seems somewhat suspect to me. Any suggestions? Thanks RIch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Apr 1 08:56:22 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 08:56:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Inverters - Digital Clocks Losing Time? In-Reply-To: <00b301d4e87b$31e96db0$95bc4910$@solartechvt.com> References: <00b301d4e87b$31e96db0$95bc4910$@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: <51f2941d-a589-8b6e-01db-e59eb4cf5d2a@entech-engineering.com> I would think it has to be frequency. What else could shift the time?  Up until about 2 years ago we were a grid isolated system and no one could use a plug in the wall clock. It takes just a very little off 60 Hz for a clock to keep incorrect time. Being off .5 Hz will result in 42,300 cycles in one day. When I worked in power plants the frequency was a digital display to the 6th place I think. The operator said if that decimal place was off by more than 2 from ISONE, it would trip off line. The steam turbines would be destroyed otherwise. Chris On 4/1/2019 7:08 AM, Rich Nicol wrote: > > Hello Wrenches > > I have a site with two PAE 48v Magnum inverters stacked. System > voltage fluctuates ~ +/- 4 volts ranging from 243 to 247. Evenly split > on the two lines. > > Site has a few electrical peculiarities I haven’t seen on the many > other sites I have with Magnum inverters. Among those is three digital > clocks on appliances that lose ~ 5 min per day consistently. A forth > clock which is on a weather station with a transformer where it plugs > into a receptacle keeps time and of course the computers do as they > are web connected. > > I checked all neutral connections and verified proper N-G bond. > > All connections appropriately torqued. > > My recollection is the modest voltage swings are within Magnum spec. > But its constantly moving about which seems somewhat suspect to me. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks > > RIch > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Apr 1 10:57:59 2019 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 08:57:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Inverters - Digital Clocks Losing Time? In-Reply-To: <51f2941d-a589-8b6e-01db-e59eb4cf5d2a@entech-engineering.com> References: <00b301d4e87b$31e96db0$95bc4910$@solartechvt.com> <51f2941d-a589-8b6e-01db-e59eb4cf5d2a@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Rich, this is a known flaw in the Magnum AE and PAE series. I have one longtime client for whom I supplied a 4448AE around 2009 who later told me that had he known of this frequency issue he wouldn’t have selected Magnum. Allan Sindelar > On Apr 1, 2019, at 6:56 AM, Christopher Warfel wrote: > > I would think it has to be frequency. What else could shift the time? Up until about 2 years ago we were a grid isolated system and no one could use a plug in the wall clock. It takes just a very little off 60 Hz for a clock to keep incorrect time. Being off .5 Hz will result in 42,300 cycles in one day. When I worked in power plants the frequency was a digital display to the 6th place I think. The operator said if that decimal place was off by more than 2 from ISONE, it would trip off line. The steam turbines would be destroyed otherwise. Chris > >> On 4/1/2019 7:08 AM, Rich Nicol wrote: >> Hello Wrenches >> I have a site with two PAE 48v Magnum inverters stacked. System voltage fluctuates ~ +/- 4 volts ranging from 243 to 247. Evenly split on the two lines. >> Site has a few electrical peculiarities I haven’t seen on the many other sites I have with Magnum inverters. Among those is three digital clocks on appliances that lose ~ 5 min per day consistently. A forth clock which is on a weather station with a transformer where it plugs into a receptacle keeps time and of course the computers do as they are web connected. >> I checked all neutral connections and verified proper N-G bond. >> All connections appropriately torqued. >> My recollection is the modest voltage swings are within Magnum spec. But its constantly moving about which seems somewhat suspect to me. >> Any suggestions? >> Thanks >> RIch >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Mon Apr 1 11:01:22 2019 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 15:01:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy in PVC J-Box In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Jason, In the IQ Planning Guide, the reference to calculating the OCPD at 1.25 x the inverter continuous output current rating was in reference to sizing larger OCPDs for the Enphase Q Aggregators (branch aggregators.) I did not intend to imply that smaller circuits should be installed on breakers smaller than 20A. 20A breakers are sufficient for protecting a single branch circuit of IQ Microinverters, provided that the field wiring is sufficiently sized. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager, Envoy and Accessories (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, April 1, 2019 3:55 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy in PVC J-Box EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. Somewhat unrelated is the confusion about AC branch circuit OCPD in an Enphase IQ system. My understanding was that each branch circuit could be protected by a 20A breaker, but I always designed it for minimum branch circuit OCPD at 1.25 x combined inverter output circuit rating. The Original IQ Combiner had 20A breakers preinstalled, so that was not an option. The IQ design guide states that for the Combiner+ and Combiner 3 that the installer should select breakers with the correct amp rating. The M series design guide stated that 1.25 x combined inverter output circuit rating should be used. But it seems that Enphase would approve of 20A circuit protection regardless of how the string is populated (up to the max). Back to the original thread - I'm thinking that a grounding conductor should run with the circuit conductors and just terminate on a lug or ground bar even if it's all PVC. As for whether the DIN rail needs to be bonded - no idea on that one... I could argue that it is not exposed if it is behind the Envoy I suppose. Jason On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 4:29 PM Nick Soleil > wrote: Hi Jason and Christopher, We provide installation recommendations for installing an Envoy in a separate enclosure on pages 12-16 of our IQ Planning Guide found here. This tech brief doesn't address Jason's code questions, though. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager, Envoy and Accessories (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Christopher Warfel > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2019 11:43 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy in PVC J-Box EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. If you are using the IQ Combiner, the wiring diagram is on the inside cover. Coming from the array, L1, L2 and G. Going to the utility interconnection, L1, L2, G, N. L1, L2 into the 20a breakers, G to the G busbar, N to the N busbar. It's all there and is a nice package I think. My personal preference is to use manufacturer's equipment instead of making my own. I don't know if the AHJ would complain about non-listed equipment in the case of making your own DAS center. The Envoy may need a button pushed once in a while. I have asked customers to do this to save a trip. The Enphase "package" is safe for them to do that. I hope I did not miss your question. Chris On 3/28/2019 12:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: When mounting an Envoy on the supplied DIN rail in a PVC box wired via PVC conduit, is there any requirement to accompany the conductors with a ground wire? The envoy itself does not have a ground connection and the only exposed metallic part is the DIN rail. I'm thinking I need to mount a ground lug in the PVC box so the circuit conductors have a ground wire in the conduit. I have always used the IQ combiner even for larger systems because it was just easier. I'm considering changing to a regular PVC junction box with just an Envoy. While on the subject, if there is ample space within a load center, would it be permissible to mount the Envoy right inside the enclosure? 400A plus load centers in residential settings often have a lot of empty space! _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 10:59:19 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 07:59:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Inverters - Digital Clocks Losing Time? In-Reply-To: <00b301d4e87b$31e96db0$95bc4910$@solartechvt.com> References: <00b301d4e87b$31e96db0$95bc4910$@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: <5F9C1514-7F5C-41F6-A110-E2B7CAAF9211@gmail.com> Hi Rich, This appears to be a newer thing with magnum. I’ve seen this and it’s been commented previously here on the wrenches. Doesn’t appear to be load or charge related. It’s definitely not on the older models. Magnum says that this voltage fluctuation is normal operation. Jay Peltz power. > On Apr 1, 2019, at 4:08 AM, Rich Nicol wrote: > > Hello Wrenches > I have a site with two PAE 48v Magnum inverters stacked. System voltage fluctuates ~ +/- 4 volts ranging from 243 to 247. Evenly split on the two lines. > Site has a few electrical peculiarities I haven’t seen on the many other sites I have with Magnum inverters. Among those is three digital clocks on appliances that lose ~ 5 min per day consistently. A forth clock which is on a weather station with a transformer where it plugs into a receptacle keeps time and of course the computers do as they are web connected. > I checked all neutral connections and verified proper N-G bond. > All connections appropriately torqued. > My recollection is the modest voltage swings are within Magnum spec. But its constantly moving about which seems somewhat suspect to me. > Any suggestions? > Thanks > RIch > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Apr 1 11:15:29 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2019 08:15:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is the main problem with a battery that relies on the electronics inside to function. You have added another failure mode to a very basic and reliable battery. The manufacturer has to be in business for us to spend 3+ times the price on LA for LFP to make sense. On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 06:40:56 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I just replaced a 48V Lithionics battery with a 51V and I saw on their spec sheet that they do 12V and 24V as well. It seems like a very solid battery and BMS, but I have limited information on longevity. On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 4:09 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: G'Day All, Came across an older DIY 24v off-grid system. Looking to replace current AGM SunXtender batteries with less then 4 years on them but severely abused. Client won't go for my normal Rolls/Surrette because they are very sensitive to smells. Thus I was considering LiFePo4 batteries however I'm having difficulties locating them in a 24v bank. If you know of anyone that goes that way please let me know. So if I'm stuck with AGM's stored indoors what brand would you suggest for a heavy usage (1,500 Ahrs +) home? Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [3] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [4]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] List rules ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [10] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [11] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [2] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/59cb3f5758d57d4056ef81b95b443197a4553df3?url=http%3Awww.solarandwindfx.com&userId=1613865&signature=1091bd1fd82cbd93 [3] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/32e574e6f9a99fd5d4f5aa9067442cf5f6f41266?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.solarandwindfx.com&userId=1613865&signature=a5185395c9ecbbf6 [4] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/0b673b1323b43a4a127e77396af7ac5820c71a24?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=80fd340e63742710 [7] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/114969f430419b365128bb6d315c1bd76158776d?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&userId=1613865&signature=f68f434adb2c503e [8] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/04450d1ff34295dbcfa5ade3b6ba378cb305d3b6?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=f3437ae74198bbb4 [9] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/5e7f3e8b802eefeba7116bdaf02b76315e1724d9?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=f9dccc86e2b7426b [10] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [11] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Mon Apr 1 12:32:43 2019 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Rich Nicol) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 12:32:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Inverters - Digital Clocks Losing Time? In-Reply-To: References: <00b301d4e87b$31e96db0$95bc4910$@solartechvt.com> <51f2941d-a589-8b6e-01db-e59eb4cf5d2a@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <011e01d4e8a8$8a52f7f0$9ef8e7d0$@solartechvt.com> Thanks for the feedback and pointers, its greatly appreciated – I checked frequency and it was spot on at 60Hz but with minimal decimal places on my meter. This must be something new with Magnum as I haven’t seen the voltage issues on other systems nor have I had any issues with appliances or clocks etc. I hate to admit that I seem to find myself in constant frustration for one reason or another with the primary suppliers of offgrid system components! From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Monday, April 1, 2019 10:58 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Inverters - Digital Clocks Losing Time? Rich, this is a known flaw in the Magnum AE and PAE series. I have one longtime client for whom I supplied a 4448AE around 2009 who later told me that had he known of this frequency issue he wouldn’t have selected Magnum. Allan Sindelar On Apr 1, 2019, at 6:56 AM, Christopher Warfel wrote: I would think it has to be frequency. What else could shift the time? Up until about 2 years ago we were a grid isolated system and no one could use a plug in the wall clock. It takes just a very little off 60 Hz for a clock to keep incorrect time. Being off .5 Hz will result in 42,300 cycles in one day. When I worked in power plants the frequency was a digital display to the 6th place I think. The operator said if that decimal place was off by more than 2 from ISONE, it would trip off line. The steam turbines would be destroyed otherwise. Chris On 4/1/2019 7:08 AM, Rich Nicol wrote: Hello Wrenches I have a site with two PAE 48v Magnum inverters stacked. System voltage fluctuates ~ +/- 4 volts ranging from 243 to 247. Evenly split on the two lines. Site has a few electrical peculiarities I haven’t seen on the many other sites I have with Magnum inverters. Among those is three digital clocks on appliances that lose ~ 5 min per day consistently. A forth clock which is on a weather station with a transformer where it plugs into a receptacle keeps time and of course the computers do as they are web connected. I checked all neutral connections and verified proper N-G bond. All connections appropriately torqued. My recollection is the modest voltage swings are within Magnum spec. But its constantly moving about which seems somewhat suspect to me. Any suggestions? Thanks RIch _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 18:38:47 2019 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 12:38:47 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014/2017 NEC Code Adoption Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, I am in the process of familiarizing myself with the upcoming code adoptions here. Big Island has just adopted 2014 and Kauai (KIUC) just went to the 2017 NEC. Below is what I have gathered so far on the changes that would apply moving forward. - 2014 - My understanding is that most string inverters should take care of ground fault/arc fault compliance. - Need a disconnect within 10’ of rooftop array (exterior wiring). - Microinverters/optimizers automatically take care of this - For PV systems without backup, (i.e. Mauna Loa) can also just install a string inverter within the boundary (no additional cost other than inverters in a bad location) which acts as the disconnect if the inverter shuts down (i.e. turning the breaker off) - For PV systems with backup, may need remote shutoff apart from interconnection breaker - Otherwise a disconnecting combiner is needed - Labeling requirement changes - 2017 - Changes the 10’ rule to 1’ on the disconnect - Also requires control of conductors in the array (optimizers or possibly string level disconnects) - Better/cheaper products are likely on the way, but I haven’t seen them yet Have I missed some things? Mahalo in advance. *James B. Rudolph* *HU* *Director of Energy* *ES Electrician # 10816* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* *808.594.9969* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 21:20:06 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 18:20:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014/2017 NEC Code Adoption In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: James Tigo will work in both grid and off grid module disconnect requirements Jerry On Tue, Apr 2, 2019, 6:16 PM James Rudolph wrote: > Aloha Wrenches, > I am in the process of familiarizing myself with the upcoming code > adoptions here. Big Island has just adopted 2014 and Kauai (KIUC) just went > to the 2017 NEC. > Below is what I have gathered so far on the changes that would apply > moving forward. > > > - 2014 > - My understanding is that most string inverters should take care > of ground fault/arc fault compliance. > - Need a disconnect within 10’ of rooftop array (exterior wiring). > - Microinverters/optimizers automatically take care of this > - For PV systems without backup, (i.e. Mauna Loa) can also just > install a string inverter within the boundary (no additional cost other > than inverters in a bad location) which acts as the disconnect if the > inverter shuts down (i.e. turning the breaker off) > - For PV systems with backup, may need remote shutoff apart > from interconnection breaker > - Otherwise a disconnecting combiner is needed > - Labeling requirement changes > - 2017 > - Changes the 10’ rule to 1’ on the disconnect > - Also requires control of conductors in the array (optimizers or > possibly string level disconnects) > - Better/cheaper products are likely on the way, but I haven’t seen > them yet > > > > Have I missed some things? > > > Mahalo in advance. > > > > > *James B. Rudolph* > > *HU* > > *Director of Energy* > > *ES Electrician # 10816* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* > > *808.594.9969* > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 3 08:13:57 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 08:13:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy in PVC J-Box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm talking about systems that exceed 52 IQ7+ microinverters. These systems require an alternative AC load center. I have actually used the IQ combiner to just house the Envoy in the past for simplicity's sake even though the cost is somewhat higher. It is interesting to note that Enphase probably did not anticipate this use case for the IQ combiner because they do not include a knockout cover for the first PV string. On Thu, Mar 28, 2019, 2:43 PM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > If you are using the IQ Combiner, the wiring diagram is on the inside > cover. Coming from the array, L1, L2 and G. Going to the utility > interconnection, L1, L2, G, N. L1, L2 into the 20a breakers, G to the G > busbar, N to the N busbar. It's all there and is a nice package I think. > My personal preference is to use manufacturer's equipment instead of making > my own. I don't know if the AHJ would complain about non-listed equipment > in the case of making your own DAS center. The Envoy may need a button > pushed once in a while. I have asked customers to do this to save a trip. > The Enphase "package" is safe for them to do that. I hope I did not miss > your question. Chris > On 3/28/2019 12:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > When mounting an Envoy on the supplied DIN rail in a PVC box wired via PVC > conduit, is there any requirement to accompany the conductors with a ground > wire? The envoy itself does not have a ground connection and the only > exposed metallic part is the DIN rail. > > I'm thinking I need to mount a ground lug in the PVC box so the circuit > conductors have a ground wire in the conduit. I have always used the IQ > combiner even for larger systems because it was just easier. I'm > considering changing to a regular PVC junction box with just an Envoy. > > While on the subject, if there is ample space within a load center, would > it be permissible to mount the Envoy right inside the enclosure? 400A plus > load centers in residential settings often have a lot of empty space! > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Apr 3 18:05:02 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 15:05:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries Message-ID: <37258b9c740902196f7ebe3947f734a2@mail.gmail.com> Friends: For years we have been supporting large form-factor flooded battery trays by setting them on pressure treat 4X4s. We have developed a cradle we bolt onto a special-order, narrow pallet jack and roll them over the wood supports. It is not a seismic solution, but it works. Just today I have learned that at least one large battery manufacturer is recommending against using any form of wood, apparently due to the potential for rot and/or conductive paths. I am told that the solution is steel racking with plastic covers over the steel. How are the rest of you supporting your large flooded batteries? Thanks in advance, William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 20:05:55 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 17:05:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries In-Reply-To: <37258b9c740902196f7ebe3947f734a2@mail.gmail.com> References: <37258b9c740902196f7ebe3947f734a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: HI William, Here is how I do big HUP type batteries. Metal frame, and wheels. You can use either hi durometer synthetic or metal wheels. This one the guy had powered coated Jay Peltz Power > On Apr 3, 2019, at 3:05 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > For years we have been supporting large form-factor flooded battery trays by setting them on pressure treat 4X4s. We have developed a cradle we bolt onto a special-order, narrow pallet jack and roll them over the wood supports. It is not a seismic solution, but it works. > > Just today I have learned that at least one large battery manufacturer is recommending against using any form of wood, apparently due to the potential for rot and/or conductive paths. I am told that the solution is steel racking with plastic covers over the steel. > > How are the rest of you supporting your large flooded batteries? > > Thanks in advance, > > William > > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0785.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 112963 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Apr 3 20:08:52 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 17:08:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries In-Reply-To: References: <37258b9c740902196f7ebe3947f734a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5a0b272e31cbafcada64854a5276af2f@mail.gmail.com> Jay: Is this for one battery? I presume you crane the battery into the cart and then roll it into a battery box or enclosure… I forgot to mention that steel is verboten unless it is lined with plastic. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller *From:* jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, April 3, 2019 5:06 PM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries HI William, Here is how I do big HUP type batteries. Metal frame, and wheels. You can use either hi durometer synthetic or metal wheels. This one the guy had powered coated Jay Peltz Power On Apr 3, 2019, at 3:05 PM, William Miller wrote: Friends: For years we have been supporting large form-factor flooded battery trays by setting them on pressure treat 4X4s. We have developed a cradle we bolt onto a special-order, narrow pallet jack and roll them over the wood supports. It is not a seismic solution, but it works. Just today I have learned that at least one large battery manufacturer is recommending against using any form of wood, apparently due to the potential for rot and/or conductive paths. I am told that the solution is steel racking with plastic covers over the steel. How are the rest of you supporting your large flooded batteries? Thanks in advance, William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 112963 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Apr 3 23:25:12 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 21:25:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries In-Reply-To: <5a0b272e31cbafcada64854a5276af2f@mail.gmail.com> References: <37258b9c740902196f7ebe3947f734a2@mail.gmail.com> <5a0b272e31cbafcada64854a5276af2f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <52a58dae-1a9c-3f1c-bf17-7072ad04d623@solarray.com> I put Fiber Reinforced Panel directly on the floor, and slide the battery on that.  Why are you setting them up off the floor? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/3/19 6:08 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Jay: > > Is this for one battery?  I presume you crane the battery into the > cart and then roll it into a battery box or enclosure… > > I forgot to mention that steel is verboten unless it is lined with > plastic. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > Quote of the day:  “If there is a job you hate, get really, > > really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller > > *From:*jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com ] > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 3, 2019 5:06 PM > *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries > > HI William, > > Here is how I do big HUP type batteries. > > Metal frame, and wheels.  You can use either hi durometer synthetic or > metal wheels. > > This one the guy had powered coated > > Jay > > Peltz Power > > > > On Apr 3, 2019, at 3:05 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > For years we have been supporting large form-factor flooded battery > trays by setting them on pressure treat 4X4s. We have developed a > cradle we bolt onto a special-order, narrow pallet jack and roll them > over the wood supports.  It is not a seismic solution, but it works. > > Just today I have learned that at least one large battery manufacturer > is recommending against using any form of wood, apparently due to the > potential for rot and/or conductive paths.  I am told that the > solution is steel racking with plastic covers over the steel. > > How are the rest of you supporting your large flooded batteries? > > Thanks in advance, > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 112963 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Apr 4 00:16:58 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 21:16:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries In-Reply-To: <37258b9c740902196f7ebe3947f734a2@mail.gmail.com> References: <37258b9c740902196f7ebe3947f734a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <168ae3a1-7c96-90d3-38f8-92a7686bc3dc@psln.com> William,             Our typical battery support :  Start with concrete slab which should be the foundation for the shed the power system is in, next pressure treated wood of various dimensions depending on battery height, next  3/4" plywood, next 40 mil PVC shower pan liner on bottom and runs up sides ~4-5" which acts as an acid tray.  Add batteries.  The center to centers of the pressure treat depends on batteries (T-105s or Rolls CS-21P or??).  We've never discovered any rot, not sure how conduction would happen with the 40 mil PVC liner there.             A wooden support enclosure leaves much more room for installation flexibility, onsite mods.  Many times after a battery replacement in 15+ years there is the need for new support/enclosure due to power changes.  $.02 from Taylorsville Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 4/3/2019 3:05 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > For years we have been supporting large form-factor flooded battery > trays by setting them on pressure treat 4X4s. We have developed a > cradle we bolt onto a special-order, narrow pallet jack and roll them > over the wood supports.  It is not a seismic solution, but it works. > > Just today I have learned that at least one large battery manufacturer > is recommending against using any form of wood, apparently due to the > potential for rot and/or conductive paths.  I am told that the > solution is steel racking with plastic covers over the steel. > > How are the rest of you supporting your large flooded batteries? > > Thanks in advance, > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > Quote of the day:  “If there is a job you hate, get really, > > really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Wed Apr 3 22:09:36 2019 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 19:09:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does SMA have a SGIP-compliant (i.e. Smart Storage) Product? Message-ID: <0MSt2R-1hJBOG241d-00RmoF@mrelay.perfora.net> When I was a C-46 contractor in California from 2000 to 2012, I used to do about 1/3 of my business as grid-tied battery backup and off-grid. I came to focus on the Outback solutions in general, and later the Radian 8048 and 240 A-hr AGM batteries. That was obviously a while ago. I became an educator and a consultant helping California K-12 school districts become more energy efficient and energy conserving. Nonetheless, I had a left-over client that was working through a full-house “gut and rebuild”. I recommended the most efficient lighting, A/C, fridges. I helped him create dedicated branch circuits should he want to back-up critical loads. I designed a SMA/LG 12.4 kW roof mount system together with a 400 A 240/120 V split phase service panel. We were ready for battery back up and also told him that there was a new program – California SGIP. One-half of his service panel remains untouched. So with the SGIP Program, I put in a reservation to Southern California Edison for a 8 kW / 16 kWh (Sonnen ECO-16 -- based) “smart storage” system. The guys at Sonnen made a number of faux pas, so we went looking elsewhere. I really like the SMA SB inverters. The three MPP inputs, the secure power supply. So I thought since SMA claimed to have a “Sunny Boy Storage” system that was SGIP-compliant, and had taken this new product on a eight-city road show, we were “in like Flynn”. Fast forward: I have spoken to my sales rep at Wesco, and FIVE – count them FIVE -- people at SMA Sales and presales Tech Support , and not one person claimes to have knowledge of the Sunny Boy Storage system. Have I gone blind, dum and crazy? I understand that StorEdge product has traction and I am ready to jump ship. What am I missing? Peter Parrish Peter T. Parrish Calofornia Solar Engineering 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at calsolareng.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu Apr 4 00:55:56 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 18:55:56 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does SMA have a SGIP-compliant (i.e. Smart Storage) Product? In-Reply-To: <0MSt2R-1hJBOG241d-00RmoF@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0MSt2R-1hJBOG241d-00RmoF@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: Welcome back, Peter, to the Brave New World of grid-tie plus storage plus SGIP plus bulk services plus plus plus. >From my perspective, Tesla and LGC/SolarEdge are the furthest along in this new journey beyond the dinosaur designs and strategies of the 1980s to the early 2000s. At least if you look at the installation data from the two cutting/bleeding edge states of Hawaii and California. SMA is somewhat late to this particular dance. That said, I find your comments below kinda shocking. Blair Reynolds....are you out there? I've found him to be one of the most knowledgeable SMA guys on the Sunny Storage front. If he doesn't respond, let me know and I'll get you two together. Aloha, marco On Wednesday, April 3, 2019, Peter Parrish wrote: > When I was a C-46 contractor in California from 2000 to 2012, I used to do > about 1/3 of my business as grid-tied battery backup and off-grid. I came > to focus on the Outback solutions in general, and later the Radian 8048 and > 240 A-hr AGM batteries. > > > > That was obviously a while ago. I became an educator and a consultant > helping California K-12 school districts become more energy efficient and > energy conserving. > > > > Nonetheless, I had a left-over client that was working through a > full-house “gut and rebuild”. I recommended the most efficient lighting, > A/C, fridges. I helped him create dedicated branch circuits should he want > to back-up critical loads. I designed a SMA/LG 12.4 kW roof mount system > together with a 400 A 240/120 V split phase service panel. We were ready > for battery back up and also told him that there was a new program – > California SGIP. One-half of his service panel remains untouched. > > > > So with the SGIP Program, I put in a reservation to Southern California > Edison for a 8 kW / 16 kWh (Sonnen ECO-16 -- based) “smart storage” > system. The guys at Sonnen made a number of faux pas, so we went looking > elsewhere. > > > > I really like the SMA SB inverters. The three MPP inputs, the secure power > supply. So I thought since SMA claimed to have a “Sunny Boy Storage” system > that was SGIP-compliant, and had taken this new product on a eight-city > road show, we were “in like Flynn”. > > > > Fast forward: I have spoken to my sales rep at Wesco, and FIVE – count > them FIVE -- people at SMA Sales and presales Tech Support , and not one > person claimes to have knowledge of the Sunny Boy Storage system. Have I > gone blind, dum and crazy? > > > > I understand that StorEdge product has traction and I am ready to jump > ship. What am I missing? > > > > Peter Parrish > > > > Peter T. Parrish > Calofornia Solar Engineering > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > peter.parrish at calsolareng.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Apr 4 00:50:29 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 21:50:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries In-Reply-To: <52a58dae-1a9c-3f1c-bf17-7072ad04d623@solarray.com> References: <37258b9c740902196f7ebe3947f734a2@mail.gmail.com> <5a0b272e31cbafcada64854a5276af2f@mail.gmail.com> <52a58dae-1a9c-3f1c-bf17-7072ad04d623@solarray.com> Message-ID: <248514b4ee02c832ee3eafae4dfe1b41@mail.gmail.com> Ray: I am setting the batteries up off the floor for these reasons: 1. I am trying to gain maximum ventilation. 2. I rarely spill electrolyte, but if I do, I don’t want the steel cases sitting in it. 3. I haven’t figured out how to slide a 1700 pound battery across *anything*. 4. With the proper arrangement of blocks, I can roll the tray right over them with a pallet jack and lower it gently onto the blocks. Wiliam *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray *Sent:* Wednesday, April 3, 2019 8:25 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries I put Fiber Reinforced Panel directly on the floor, and slide the battery on that. Why are you setting them up off the floor? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/3/19 6:08 PM, William Miller wrote: Jay: Is this for one battery? I presume you crane the battery into the cart and then roll it into a battery box or enclosure… I forgot to mention that steel is verboten unless it is lined with plastic. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller *From:* jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, April 3, 2019 5:06 PM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries HI William, Here is how I do big HUP type batteries. Metal frame, and wheels. You can use either hi durometer synthetic or metal wheels. This one the guy had powered coated Jay Peltz Power On Apr 3, 2019, at 3:05 PM, William Miller wrote: Friends: For years we have been supporting large form-factor flooded battery trays by setting them on pressure treat 4X4s. We have developed a cradle we bolt onto a special-order, narrow pallet jack and roll them over the wood supports. It is not a seismic solution, but it works. Just today I have learned that at least one large battery manufacturer is recommending against using any form of wood, apparently due to the potential for rot and/or conductive paths. I am told that the solution is steel racking with plastic covers over the steel. How are the rest of you supporting your large flooded batteries? Thanks in advance, William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 112963 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reellison at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 03:58:19 2019 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 03:58:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries In-Reply-To: <248514b4ee02c832ee3eafae4dfe1b41@mail.gmail.com> References: <37258b9c740902196f7ebe3947f734a2@mail.gmail.com> <5a0b272e31cbafcada64854a5276af2f@mail.gmail.com> <52a58dae-1a9c-3f1c-bf17-7072ad04d623@solarray.com> <248514b4ee02c832ee3eafae4dfe1b41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45825712-37A7-4E8D-BBF4-3648BCBA13E1@gmail.com> I get large 2 volt cells 230 to 250 pounds each and then connect them all together in a custom made case lined with glass board (shower stall liner) Most of the places I have to put them you could not put in a steel cased battery it just would not be physically possible Picture 12 cells @ 230 # off the truck to the dock off the dock to the boat off the boat to the dock and up 16 steps that are 10 to 12” tall then a run 100 yards uphill to the power building ? Can’t do any of that with a steel cased battery ! Can hardly do it with single sells. I don’t know if you can get HUPS uncased or not? Then assemble them on site ? I don’t generally put them directly on the floor, I want some space under them but the case bottom is well supported Just some thoughts Bob ellison > On Apr 4, 2019, at 12:50 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Ray: > > I am setting the batteries up off the floor for these reasons: > > 1. I am trying to gain maximum ventilation. > 2. I rarely spill electrolyte, but if I do, I don’t want the steel cases sitting in it. > 3. I haven’t figured out how to slide a 1700 pound battery across anything. > 4. With the proper arrangement of blocks, I can roll the tray right over them with a pallet jack and lower it gently onto the blocks. > > Wiliam > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 8:25 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries > > I put Fiber Reinforced Panel directly on the floor, and slide the battery on that. Why are you setting them up off the floor? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 4/3/19 6:08 PM, William Miller wrote: > Jay: > > Is this for one battery? I presume you crane the battery into the cart and then roll it into a battery box or enclosure… > > I forgot to mention that steel is verboten unless it is lined with plastic. > > William > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, > really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller > > From: jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 5:06 PM > To: William Miller; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries > > HI William, > > Here is how I do big HUP type batteries. > Metal frame, and wheels. You can use either hi durometer synthetic or metal wheels. > This one the guy had powered coated > > Jay > > Peltz Power > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 3, 2019, at 3:05 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > For years we have been supporting large form-factor flooded battery trays by setting them on pressure treat 4X4s. We have developed a cradle we bolt onto a special-order, narrow pallet jack and roll them over the wood supports. It is not a seismic solution, but it works. > > Just today I have learned that at least one large battery manufacturer is recommending against using any form of wood, apparently due to the potential for rot and/or conductive paths. I am told that the solution is steel racking with plastic covers over the steel. > > How are the rest of you supporting your large flooded batteries? > > Thanks in advance, > > William > > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 09:59:17 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 09:59:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Batteries Message-ID: Hi All, Anyone have any experience/knowledge about Blue Ion batteries? Thanks, Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 10:04:17 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 07:04:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie Yes been using blue ion for close to 3 years Jerry On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 6:59 AM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hi All, > Anyone have any experience/knowledge about Blue Ion batteries? > Thanks, > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 10:09:15 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 10:09:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So I assume therefore you like them compared to others? Reasons? Comparative pricing? Thanks, Howie On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 10:04 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Howie > Yes been using blue ion for close to 3 years > Jerry > > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 6:59 AM Howie Michaelson > wrote: > >> Hi All, >> Anyone have any experience/knowledge about Blue Ion batteries? >> Thanks, >> Howie >> >> *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* >> >> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* >> >> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 4 10:16:58 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 08:16:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries In-Reply-To: <45825712-37A7-4E8D-BBF4-3648BCBA13E1@gmail.com> References: <37258b9c740902196f7ebe3947f734a2@mail.gmail.com> <5a0b272e31cbafcada64854a5276af2f@mail.gmail.com> <52a58dae-1a9c-3f1c-bf17-7072ad04d623@solarray.com> <248514b4ee02c832ee3eafae4dfe1b41@mail.gmail.com> <45825712-37A7-4E8D-BBF4-3648BCBA13E1@gmail.com> Message-ID: HUPs can be disassembled into separate cells then reassembled back in the can.  They have bolt on buss bars. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/4/19 1:58 AM, RE Ellison wrote: > I get large 2 volt cells 230  to 250 pounds each and then connect them > all together in a custom made case lined with glass board  (shower > stall liner) > > Most of the places I have to put them you could not put in a steel > cased battery it just would not be physically possible > > Picture 12 cells @ 230 # off the truck to the dock off the dock to the > boat off the boat to the dock and up 16 steps that are 10 to 12” tall > then a run 100 yards uphill to the power building ? > > Can’t do any of that with a steel cased battery ! Can hardly do it > with single sells. > > I don’t know if you can get HUPS uncased or not? >  Then assemble them on site ? > > I don’t generally put them directly on the floor, I want some space > under them but the case bottom is well supported > > Just some thoughts > Bob ellison > > On Apr 4, 2019, at 12:50 AM, William Miller > wrote: > >> Ray: >> >> I am setting the batteries up off the floor for these reasons: >> >> 1.I am trying to gain maximum ventilation. >> >> 2.I rarely spill electrolyte, but if I do, I don’t want the steel >> cases sitting in it. >> >> 3.I haven’t figured out how to slide a 1700 pound battery across >> _anything_. >> >> 4.With the proper arrangement of blocks, I can roll the tray right >> over them with a pallet jack and lower it gently onto the blocks. >> >> Wiliam >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] *On Behalf Of *Ray >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 3, 2019 8:25 PM >> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries >> >> I put Fiber Reinforced Panel directly on the floor, and slide the >> battery on that.  Why are you setting them up off the floor? >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 4/3/19 6:08 PM, William Miller wrote: >> >> Jay: >> >> Is this for one battery?  I presume you crane the battery into >> the cart and then roll it into a battery box or enclosure… >> >> I forgot to mention that steel is verboten unless it is lined >> with plastic. >> >> William >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> Quote of the day:  “If there is a job you hate, get really, >> >> really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller >> >> *From:*jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com ] >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 3, 2019 5:06 PM >> *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries >> >> HI William, >> >> Here is how I do big HUP type batteries. >> >> Metal frame, and wheels.  You can use either hi durometer >> synthetic or metal wheels. >> >> This one the guy had powered coated >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz Power >> >> >> >> On Apr 3, 2019, at 3:05 PM, William Miller >> > wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> For years we have been supporting large form-factor flooded >> battery trays by setting them on pressure treat 4X4s. We have >> developed a cradle we bolt onto a special-order, narrow pallet >> jack and roll them over the wood supports.  It is not a seismic >> solution, but it works. >> >> Just today I have learned that at least one large battery >> manufacturer is recommending against using any form of wood, >> apparently due to the potential for rot and/or conductive paths.  >> I am told that the solution is steel racking with plastic covers >> over the steel. >> >> How are the rest of you supporting your large flooded batteries? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> William >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Apr 4 10:32:30 2019 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 10:32:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie, Everyone's favorite HP editor Joe Schwartz is now working for Blue Planet. He did an article in HP on transitioning his own off-grid system to Blue Planet. I believe you can find the article on the Blue Planet website. Christopher On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 10:09 AM Howie Michaelson wrote: > So I assume therefore you like them compared to others? > Reasons? > Comparative pricing? > Thanks, > Howie > > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 10:04 AM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Howie >> Yes been using blue ion for close to 3 years >> Jerry >> >> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 6:59 AM Howie Michaelson >> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> Anyone have any experience/knowledge about Blue Ion batteries? >>> Thanks, >>> Howie >>> >>> *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* >>> >>> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* >>> >>> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 4 10:35:23 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 08:35:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries In-Reply-To: <248514b4ee02c832ee3eafae4dfe1b41@mail.gmail.com> References: <37258b9c740902196f7ebe3947f734a2@mail.gmail.com> <5a0b272e31cbafcada64854a5276af2f@mail.gmail.com> <52a58dae-1a9c-3f1c-bf17-7072ad04d623@solarray.com> <248514b4ee02c832ee3eafae4dfe1b41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I've seen wood rot pretty badly with acid exposure and then that can allow the batteries to tilt dangerously. Came across one set that was so bad, that the interconnect cables were the only thing keeping one of the batteries from falling over. I use a Hi Lift jack on one end to lift the battery up off the carrier.  I also use the Hi lift jack laid sideways to slide the batteries around pushing off a 2 x4 against a wall.  For batteries under 1200 lbs, we've been able to push them with our legs, while sitting on the floor. Depends on the friction of the surface.  The FRP panel is fairly slick. If you are using blocks, I'd recommend TREX decking or concrete pavers. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/3/19 10:50 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Ray: > > I am setting the batteries up off the floor for these reasons: > > 1.I am trying to gain maximum ventilation. > > 2.I rarely spill electrolyte, but if I do, I don’t want the steel > cases sitting in it. > > 3.I haven’t figured out how to slide a 1700 pound battery across > _anything_. > > 4.With the proper arrangement of blocks, I can roll the tray right > over them with a pallet jack and lower it gently onto the blocks. > > Wiliam > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Ray > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 3, 2019 8:25 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries > > I put Fiber Reinforced Panel directly on the floor, and slide the > battery on that.  Why are you setting them up off the floor? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/3/19 6:08 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Jay: > > Is this for one battery?  I presume you crane the battery into the > cart and then roll it into a battery box or enclosure… > > I forgot to mention that steel is verboten unless it is lined with > plastic. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > Quote of the day:  “If there is a job you hate, get really, > > really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller > > *From:*jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com ] > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 3, 2019 5:06 PM > *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries > > HI William, > > Here is how I do big HUP type batteries. > > Metal frame, and wheels.  You can use either hi durometer > synthetic or metal wheels. > > This one the guy had powered coated > > Jay > > Peltz Power > > On Apr 3, 2019, at 3:05 PM, William Miller > > wrote: > > Friends: > > For years we have been supporting large form-factor flooded > battery trays by setting them on pressure treat 4X4s. We have > developed a cradle we bolt onto a special-order, narrow pallet > jack and roll them over the wood supports.  It is not a seismic > solution, but it works. > > Just today I have learned that at least one large battery > manufacturer is recommending against using any form of wood, > apparently due to the potential for rot and/or conductive paths.  > I am told that the solution is steel racking with plastic covers > over the steel. > > How are the rest of you supporting your large flooded batteries? > > Thanks in advance, > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 112963 bytes Desc: not available URL: From will at solarenergy.org Thu Apr 4 10:56:16 2019 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 10:56:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I haven't used one personally but I know they use cells from the former Sony plant which are high quality. Their BMS (they call it a BMU) seems pretty advanced too. They only make 48V systems so you can't retrofit them into a 24V system and they don't (currently) communicate with any of the inverter manufactures monitoring. On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 10:09 AM Howie Michaelson wrote: > So I assume therefore you like them compared to others? > Reasons? > Comparative pricing? > Thanks, > Howie > > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 10:04 AM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Howie >> Yes been using blue ion for close to 3 years >> Jerry >> >> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 6:59 AM Howie Michaelson >> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> Anyone have any experience/knowledge about Blue Ion batteries? >>> Thanks, >>> Howie >>> >>> *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* >>> >>> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* >>> >>> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 4 11:14:58 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2019 08:14:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <258f58c54b846b787067a25fcfda5589@127.0.0.1> They are not stocked at my places, so one has to become a dealer and pay sales tax. My business is small and I do not want to do the sales tax work. On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 10:56:16 -0400, Will White wrote: I haven't used one personally but I know they use cells from the former Sony plant which are high quality. Their BMS (they call it a BMU) seems pretty advanced too. They only make 48V systems so you can't retrofit them into a 24V system and they don't (currently) communicate with any of the inverter manufactures monitoring. On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 10:09 AM Howie Michaelson wrote: So I assume therefore you like them compared to others? Reasons? Comparative pricing? Thanks, Howie On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 10:04 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: Howie Yes been using blue ion for close to 3 years Jerry On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 6:59 AM Howie Michaelson wrote: Hi All, Anyone have any experience/knowledge about Blue Ion batteries? Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson SUN CATCHER NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Solar Electric Systems Sales ">802-272-0004 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [16] List rules ">Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org [19] w: www.solarenergy.org [20] p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 _ _ _FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy._ Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change [21]. -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [22] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [23] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] mailto:Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com [2] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [3] mailto:Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [12] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [17] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [19] mailto:will at solarenergy.org [20] http://www.solarenergy.org/ [21] http://solarenergy.org/donate [22] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [23] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 12:28:27 2019 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier III) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 12:28:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supporting heavy flooded batteries Message-ID: A suggestion: McNichols Corp, among others, deals in pultruded fiberglass extrusions, including various grids. Pultruded fiberglass is strong and acid resistant. It comes in just about any shape that you can get in steel, including sheets, C-channel, angle, and I-beam. I've even seen pultruded bolts to put it all together. I've never had the opportunity to use it in a battery box but it seems like the right stuff. A number of industrial supply companies sell walkway decking in this kind of material. -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Apr 4 14:23:04 2019 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 13:23:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9FFB1DE5-21AB-4AC6-9A5A-5D9000A65C39@sindelarsolar.com> Howie, I have installed these in two existing systems (one 48 kwhr, one 16 kwhr), with a third in the pipeline. So far excellent performance and dealer support. Allan Sindelar > On Apr 4, 2019, at 8:59 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Hi All, > Anyone have any experience/knowledge about Blue Ion batteries? > Thanks, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 16:30:45 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 15:30:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I like the UnigyII or the Trojan AGMs, just started a set of Firefly AGM. going to LiFePO is very expensive. I have usually had better than 4 years on AGM, Are they overcharging? Undercharging? Do they have auto gen start? For Li-Ion I have some good experience with Kilovault by AltE it is a LiFePO and can be series connected to make 24-Volt. I do not know about parallel and the size for what you need. On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 3:09 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'Day All, > > Came across an older DIY 24v off-grid system. Looking to replace current > AGM SunXtender batteries with less then 4 years on them but severely > abused. Client won't go for my normal Rolls/Surrette because they are very > sensitive to smells. > > Thus I was considering LiFePo4 batteries however I'm having difficulties > locating them in a 24v bank. If you know of anyone that goes that way > please let me know. > > So if I'm stuck with AGM's stored indoors what brand would you suggest for > a heavy usage (1,500 Ahrs +) home? > > Thanks, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Thu Apr 4 20:21:04 2019 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 20:21:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] De- combining Message-ID: Hello Wrenches We have a project taking a 480kw carport array feeding a Satcon 500kw inverter and upgrading it to 8- 50 kw SMA inverters. The SW 285's, in strings of 12, are combined in groups of 8 in the field then fed to the inverter DC input. In my experience SMA sells a rapid shutdown box with 4 inputs but only 2 outputs to pair with their Inverters that have 3 MPPT channels and they instruct you to combine the strings at the rapid shutdown box on the roof then install a pigtail on that wire at the inverter splitting it into two and sending the output of those two combined strings into two seperate MPPT channels. We would like to do the same with combiner panels in reverse. I spoke with SMA and they are checking with Germany but I knew I would find info here. Anyone with experience with this? -- Gary Easton *Appalachian Renewable Power llc. * *Proud to Celebrate over 10 years in business* Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV #031508-29 T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” ~Gandhi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Thu Apr 4 22:44:00 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 02:44:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] De- combining In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gary- I am assuming the array is 600v based on string length. Perhaps a few more of the 33kW CORE1s might be a better design fit - could they be mounted off the ground at the combiner locations? Then you utilize 8 of the 12 inputs of each inverter. This would require a couple more conductors go to each inverter location and become AC homeruns to an AC collection panel at Satcon location. The CORE1s cannot run multiple inputs in parallel mode as the A and B channels of the current Sunny Boys can, so I think what you are trying to do will not work. Feel free to contact me directly if you want to discuss further. Best regards- Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer SMA Solar Academy 916-918-9412 www.SMA-America.com/partners/SMA-Solar-Academy/overview.html ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of gary easton Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2019 5:21 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] De- combining Hello Wrenches We have a project taking a 480kw carport array feeding a Satcon 500kw inverter and upgrading it to 8- 50 kw SMA inverters. The SW 285's, in strings of 12, are combined in groups of 8 in the field then fed to the inverter DC input. In my experience SMA sells a rapid shutdown box with 4 inputs but only 2 outputs to pair with their Inverters that have 3 MPPT channels and they instruct you to combine the strings at the rapid shutdown box on the roof then install a pigtail on that wire at the inverter splitting it into two and sending the output of those two combined strings into two seperate MPPT channels. We would like to do the same with combiner panels in reverse. I spoke with SMA and they are checking with Germany but I knew I would find info here. Anyone with experience with this? -- Gary Easton Appalachian Renewable Power llc. Proud to Celebrate over 10 years in business Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV #031508-29 T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1naWgmhzXyvgE2nh4NH4Y9EBg5r5cUXUM&revid=0B9ql6_CVYv0OaHZQZDVDRUxSelVsZlIxOXNDYnNwejgwT01vPQ] [https://images.youracclaim.com/images/6e7f1abf-3a78-4eb7-bb69-2e687aff5a35/NABCEP_2BBadge_2Blogo_2BPVIP_2B2019_2BFINAL-01.png] “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” ~Gandhi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Apr 5 12:34:10 2019 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 16:34:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? Message-ID: <474d758eead7409c99311d4ce1d9e5de@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hi Wrenches, Curious if anyone has had any response from Schneider renewable energy tech support of late? I have submitted 4 cases over the last 3 weeks, couple warranty claims, couple tech questions - and have had absolutely zero response. My clients are starting to get irritated, and it is wasting much time. Kevin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Fri Apr 5 14:04:55 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 18:04:55 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does SMA have a SGIP-compliant (i.e. Smart Storage) Product? In-Reply-To: References: <0MSt2R-1hJBOG241d-00RmoF@mrelay.perfora.net>, Message-ID: Peter, Just a quick word of caution... If you are going to need backup power then just double check that the surge capabilities of these inverters will work for you. I know nothing about the Tesla, but I do know that most of the newer battery inverters like the SMA Sunny Boy Storage, the Solar Edge StorEdge, Outback's Skybox, and others, often have pathetic surge capabilities. If Arbitrage and/or very small backup is your game then it's not a big deal, but for my projects, this instantly counts them out. Fronius was going to bring in a battery inverter (I don't know if or when) but their product was going to have the same problem according to the techs at Fronius that I know. Now if you're comparing these against the SB "Secure Power Supply" then yeah, they can handle a lot of loads, but once you pay out all that money for the batteries, then most of my customers are going to expect a more substantial backup capacity. Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 10:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does SMA have a SGIP-compliant (i.e. Smart Storage) Product? Welcome back, Peter, to the Brave New World of grid-tie plus storage plus SGIP plus bulk services plus plus plus. >From my perspective, Tesla and LGC/SolarEdge are the furthest along in this new journey beyond the dinosaur designs and strategies of the 1980s to the early 2000s. At least if you look at the installation data from the two cutting/bleeding edge states of Hawaii and California. SMA is somewhat late to this particular dance. That said, I find your comments below kinda shocking. Blair Reynolds....are you out there? I've found him to be one of the most knowledgeable SMA guys on the Sunny Storage front. If he doesn't respond, let me know and I'll get you two together. Aloha, marco On Wednesday, April 3, 2019, Peter Parrish > wrote: When I was a C-46 contractor in California from 2000 to 2012, I used to do about 1/3 of my business as grid-tied battery backup and off-grid. I came to focus on the Outback solutions in general, and later the Radian 8048 and 240 A-hr AGM batteries. That was obviously a while ago. I became an educator and a consultant helping California K-12 school districts become more energy efficient and energy conserving. Nonetheless, I had a left-over client that was working through a full-house “gut and rebuild”. I recommended the most efficient lighting, A/C, fridges. I helped him create dedicated branch circuits should he want to back-up critical loads. I designed a SMA/LG 12.4 kW roof mount system together with a 400 A 240/120 V split phase service panel. We were ready for battery back up and also told him that there was a new program – California SGIP. One-half of his service panel remains untouched. So with the SGIP Program, I put in a reservation to Southern California Edison for a 8 kW / 16 kWh (Sonnen ECO-16 -- based) “smart storage” system. The guys at Sonnen made a number of faux pas, so we went looking elsewhere. I really like the SMA SB inverters. The three MPP inputs, the secure power supply. So I thought since SMA claimed to have a “Sunny Boy Storage” system that was SGIP-compliant, and had taken this new product on a eight-city road show, we were “in like Flynn”. Fast forward: I have spoken to my sales rep at Wesco, and FIVE – count them FIVE -- people at SMA Sales and presales Tech Support , and not one person claimes to have knowledge of the Sunny Boy Storage system. Have I gone blind, dum and crazy? I understand that StorEdge product has traction and I am ready to jump ship. What am I missing? Peter Parrish Peter T. Parrish Calofornia Solar Engineering 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at calsolareng.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Fri Apr 5 13:29:49 2019 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 11:29:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? In-Reply-To: <474d758eead7409c99311d4ce1d9e5de@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <474d758eead7409c99311d4ce1d9e5de@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <019a01d4ebd5$2c441dd0$84cc5970$@OasisMontana.com> Good luck with that. We've had similar issues; I've called and talked to their engineers (to get questions answered); they say they'll call back, but I never hear from anyone. I did get a response from their on-line form; it took two+ weeks. (Maybe this should be on the Wrenches 'bitching' list). Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 10:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? Hi Wrenches, Curious if anyone has had any response from Schneider renewable energy tech support of late? I have submitted 4 cases over the last 3 weeks, couple warranty claims, couple tech questions - and have had absolutely zero response. My clients are starting to get irritated, and it is wasting much time. Kevin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarmax at highspeedlink.net Fri Apr 5 14:57:29 2019 From: solarmax at highspeedlink.net (Watt Bradshaw) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 14:57:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? In-Reply-To: <019a01d4ebd5$2c441dd0$84cc5970$@OasisMontana.com> References: <474d758eead7409c99311d4ce1d9e5de@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <019a01d4ebd5$2c441dd0$84cc5970$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <001b01d4ebe1$6b19f820$414de860$@highspeedlink.net> Hi Wrenches, How do I get access to the wrenches "bitching" list. My colleagues experiences with our various suppliers is important information. Thanks Watt Bradshaw President Blue Ridge Energy Company Renewable designer/installer since 1978 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of chris at OasisMontana.com Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 1:30 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? Good luck with that. We've had similar issues; I've called and talked to their engineers (to get questions answered); they say they'll call back, but I never hear from anyone. I did get a response from their on-line form; it took two+ weeks. (Maybe this should be on the Wrenches 'bitching' list). Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 10:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? Hi Wrenches, Curious if anyone has had any response from Schneider renewable energy tech support of late? I have submitted 4 cases over the last 3 weeks, couple warranty claims, couple tech questions - and have had absolutely zero response. My clients are starting to get irritated, and it is wasting much time. Kevin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Apr 5 15:13:02 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 13:13:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? In-Reply-To: <001b01d4ebe1$6b19f820$414de860$@highspeedlink.net> References: <474d758eead7409c99311d4ce1d9e5de@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <019a01d4ebd5$2c441dd0$84cc5970$@OasisMontana.com> <001b01d4ebe1$6b19f820$414de860$@highspeedlink.net> Message-ID: Over the many years, this type of info is exactly what has made the=20 Wrench list so valuable. We get the real installer perspective on=20 equipment, not just the slick brochure. Poor tech support is not just a gripe, it is a potentially fatal problem=20 for off grid clients going without power for weeks waiting for you to=20 fix it. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/5/19 12:57 PM, Watt Bradshaw wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0How do I get access to the wren= ches =E2=80=9Cbitching=E2=80=9D list. My=20 > colleagues experiences with our various suppliers is important=20 > information. Thanks > > Watt Bradshaw > > President > > Blue Ridge Energy Company > > Renewable designer/installer since 1978// > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]=20 > *On Behalf Of *chris at OasisMontana.com > *Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2019 1:30 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? > > Good luck with that.=C2=A0 We=E2=80=99ve had similar issues; I=E2=80=99ve= called and talked=20 > to their engineers (to get questions answered); they say they=E2=80=99ll = call=20 > back, but I never hear from anyone.=C2=A0 I did get a response from their= =20 > on-line form; it took two+ weeks. > > (Maybe this should be on the Wrenches =E2=80=98bitching=E2=80=99 list). > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On=20 > Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg > *Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2019 10:34 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? > > Hi Wrenches, > > Curious if anyone has had any response from Schneider renewable energy=20 > tech support of late? I have submitted 4 cases over the last 3 weeks,=20 > couple warranty claims, couple tech questions - and have had=20 > absolutely zero response. > > My clients are starting to get irritated, and it is wasting much time. > > Kevin > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Apr 5 15:20:27 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2019 12:20:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Does_SMA_have_a_SGIP-compliant_=28i=2Ee?= =?utf-8?q?=2E_Smart_Storage=29_Product=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <0MSt2R-1hJBOG241d-00RmoF@mrelay.perfora.net>, Message-ID: <5110726f1d7ef3892c3997eb23aeb9c2@127.0.0.1> Definitely agree with Kienan. The LG 48V project with Schneider failed because LG could not handle the surge of an XW6848. LG Chem indicated to me that the second half of 2019, they may announce something. I am working on a project that is running 17 Discover AES and 3 XW+. It has some issues but surge is not one of them. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 18:04:55 +0000, Kienan Maxfield wrote: Peter, Just a quick word of caution... If you are going to need backup power then just double check that the surge capabilities of these inverters will work for you. I know nothing about the Tesla, but I do know that most of the newer battery inverters like the SMA Sunny Boy Storage, the Solar Edge StorEdge, Outback's Skybox, and others, often have pathetic surge capabilities. If Arbitrage and/or very small backup is your game then it's not a big deal, but for my projects, this instantly counts them out. Fronius was going to bring in a battery inverter (I don't know if or when) but their product was going to have the same problem according to the techs at Fronius that I know. Now if you're comparing these against the SB "Secure Power Supply" then yeah, they can handle a lot of loads, but once you pay out all that money for the batteries, then most of my customers are going to expect a more substantial backup capacity. Thanks, Kienan MAXFIELD SOLAR MAXFIELDSOLAR at HOTMAIL.COM [3] (801) 631-5584 (CELL) ------------------------- FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of Marco Mangelsdorf SENT: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 10:55 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Does SMA have a SGIP-compliant (i.e. Smart Storage) Product? Welcome back, Peter, to the Brave New World of grid-tie plus storage plus SGIP plus bulk services plus plus plus. From my perspective, Tesla and LGC/SolarEdge are the furthest along in this new journey beyond the dinosaur designs and strategies of the 1980s to the early 2000s. At least if you look at the installation data from the two cutting/bleeding edge states of Hawaii and California. SMA is somewhat late to this particular dance. That said, I find your comments below kinda shocking. Blair Reynolds....are you out there? I've found him to be one of the most knowledgeable SMA guys on the Sunny Storage front. If he doesn't respond, let me know and I'll get you two together. Aloha, marco On Wednesday, April 3, 2019, Peter Parrish wrote: When I was a C-46 contractor in California from 2000 to 2012, I used to do about 1/3 of my business as grid-tied battery backup and off-grid. I came to focus on the Outback solutions in general, and later the Radian 8048 and 240 A-hr AGM batteries. That was obviously a while ago. I became an educator and a consultant helping California K-12 school districts become more energy efficient and energy conserving. Nonetheless, I had a left-over client that was working through a full-house "gut and rebuild". I recommended the most efficient lighting, A/C, fridges. I helped him create dedicated branch circuits should he want to back-up critical loads. I designed a SMA/LG 12.4 kW roof mount system together with a 400 A 240/120 V split phase service panel. We were ready for battery back up and also told him that there was a new program - California SGIP. One-half of his service panel remains untouched. So with the SGIP Program, I put in a reservation to Southern California Edison for a 8 kW / 16 kWh (Sonnen ECO-16 -- based) "smart storage" system. The guys at Sonnen made a number of faux pas, so we went looking elsewhere. I really like the SMA SB inverters. The three MPP inputs, the secure power supply. So I thought since SMA claimed to have a "Sunny Boy Storage" system that was SGIP-compliant, and had taken this new product on a eight-city road show, we were "in like Flynn". Fast forward: I have spoken to my sales rep at Wesco, and FIVE - count them FIVE -- people at SMA Sales and presales Tech Support , and not one person claimes to have knowledge of the Sunny Boy Storage system. Have I gone blind, dum and crazy? I understand that StorEdge product has traction and I am ready to jump ship. What am I missing? Peter Parrish Peter T. Parrish Calofornia Solar Engineering 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 [5] South Pasadena, CA 91030 [6] (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at calsolareng.com [7] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com [4] mailto:peter.parrish at calsolareng.com [5] https://maps.google.com/?q=1107+Fair+Oaks+Ave.+Ste.+351+South+Pasadena,+CA+91030&entry=gmail&source=g [6] https://maps.google.com/?q=1107+Fair+Oaks+Ave.+Ste.+351+South+Pasadena,+CA+91030&entry=gmail&source=g [7] mailto:peter.parrish at calsolareng.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 16:10:18 2019 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 14:10:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? In-Reply-To: References: <474d758eead7409c99311d4ce1d9e5de@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <019a01d4ebd5$2c441dd0$84cc5970$@OasisMontana.com> <001b01d4ebe1$6b19f820$414de860$@highspeedlink.net> Message-ID: Ray; I agree with "life-threatening" though most big city installers would laugh I'm afraid. Many older off-grid retirees need their oxygen concentrators, CPAP machines, other medical equipment, satphones and internet phones for check-ins with family. They are simply trying to live their lives to the fullest. Around here in NOCO it's almost always elk, deer and turkey hunting "cabins" (they range from very simple one-room to full-service, with extra wine fridge). My personal best -- Magnum tech support when I called from northern BC Canada. Had to hike a mile to get clear satphone. Honda 3000i not working with the small Magnum inverter/charger Explained problem, said "On satphone, I'm sitting here until you call me back, this is $1 a minute, and I'm watching grizzly bears on the trail below me." And got a callback from Magnum in 30 minutes. Not a solution, but an immediate and effective workaround. We eventually found the solution once I was back to normal phone service. Midnite Solar has also been similarly responsive when I have to drive to the top of a pass to have phone service, then drive back to the clients location, back and forth. These little tech support things make a big impact way off the grid, both for my bottom line and my client's well-being. AND, how I choose which equipment I install. Dan Fink Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP PV Associate Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com 970-672-4342 On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 1:13 PM Ray wrote: > Over the many years, this type of info is exactly what has made the Wrench > list so valuable. We get the real installer perspective on equipment, not > just the slick brochure. > > Poor tech support is not just a gripe, it is a potentially fatal problem > for off grid clients going without power for weeks waiting for you to fix > it. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 16:58:34 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 16:58:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does SMA have a SGIP-compliant (i.e. Smart Storage) Product? In-Reply-To: <5110726f1d7ef3892c3997eb23aeb9c2@127.0.0.1> References: <0MSt2R-1hJBOG241d-00RmoF@mrelay.perfora.net> <5110726f1d7ef3892c3997eb23aeb9c2@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Dave, I'd be interested to know what issues you are having with the Discover batteries, since these are one of the LiFePO batteries we are considering seriously. Thanks, Howie On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 3:44 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Definitely agree with Kienan. The LG 48V project with Schneider failed > because LG could not handle the surge of an XW6848. LG Chem indicated to me > that the second half of 2019, they may announce something. I am working on > a project that is running 17 Discover AES and 3 XW+. It has some issues but > surge is not one of them. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 18:04:55 +0000, Kienan Maxfield < > maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com> wrote: > > Peter, > > Just a quick word of caution... If you are going to need backup power then > just double check that the surge capabilities of these inverters will work > for you. I know nothing about the Tesla, but I do know that most of the > newer battery inverters like the SMA Sunny Boy Storage, the Solar Edge > StorEdge, Outback's Skybox, and others, often have pathetic surge > capabilities. If Arbitrage and/or very small backup is your game then it's > not a big deal, but for my projects, this instantly counts them out. > Fronius was going to bring in a battery inverter (I don't know if or when) > but their product was going to have the same problem according to the techs > at Fronius that I know. > > Now if you're comparing these against the SB "Secure Power Supply" then > yeah, they can handle a lot of loads, but once you pay out all that money > for the batteries, then most of my customers are going to expect a more > substantial backup capacity. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > *Maxfield Solar* > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* > *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)* > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Marco Mangelsdorf > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 3, 2019 10:55 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Does SMA have a SGIP-compliant (i.e. Smart > Storage) Product? > > Welcome back, Peter, to the Brave New World of grid-tie plus storage plus > SGIP plus bulk services plus plus plus. > > From my perspective, Tesla and LGC/SolarEdge are the furthest along in > this new journey beyond the dinosaur designs and strategies of the 1980s to > the early 2000s. At least if you look at the installation data from the > two cutting/bleeding edge states of Hawaii and California. > > SMA is somewhat late to this particular dance. That said, I find your > comments below kinda shocking. > > Blair Reynolds....are you out there? I've found him to be one of the most > knowledgeable SMA guys on the Sunny Storage front. If he doesn't respond, > let me know and I'll get you two together. > > Aloha, > marco > > On Wednesday, April 3, 2019, Peter Parrish > wrote: > > When I was a C-46 contractor in California from 2000 to 2012, I used to do > about 1/3 of my business as grid-tied battery backup and off-grid. I came > to focus on the Outback solutions in general, and later the Radian 8048 and > 240 A-hr AGM batteries. > > > > That was obviously a while ago. I became an educator and a consultant > helping California K-12 school districts become more energy efficient and > energy conserving. > > > > Nonetheless, I had a left-over client that was working through a > full-house "gut and rebuild". I recommended the most efficient lighting, > A/C, fridges. I helped him create dedicated branch circuits should he want > to back-up critical loads. I designed a SMA/LG 12.4 kW roof mount system > together with a 400 A 240/120 V split phase service panel. We were ready > for battery back up and also told him that there was a new program – > California SGIP. One-half of his service panel remains untouched. > > > > So with the SGIP Program, I put in a reservation to Southern California > Edison for a 8 kW / 16 kWh (Sonnen ECO-16 -- based) "smart storage" > system. The guys at Sonnen made a number of faux pas, so we went looking > elsewhere. > > > > I really like the SMA SB inverters. The three MPP inputs, the secure power > supply. So I thought since SMA claimed to have a "Sunny Boy Storage" system > that was SGIP-compliant, and had taken this new product on a eight-city > road show, we were "in like Flynn". > > > > Fast forward: I have spoken to my sales rep at Wesco, and FIVE – count > them FIVE -- people at SMA Sales and presales Tech Support , and not one > person claimes to have knowledge of the Sunny Boy Storage system. Have I > gone blind, dum and crazy? > > > > I understand that StorEdge product has traction and I am ready to jump > ship. What am I missing? > > > > Peter Parrish > > > > Peter T. Parrish > Calofornia Solar Engineering > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 > > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > > (323) 839-6108 > peter.parrish at calsolareng.com > > > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vince at solarenergydesign.com Fri Apr 5 17:28:30 2019 From: vince at solarenergydesign.com (Vince McClellan) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 17:28:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? In-Reply-To: <474d758eead7409c99311d4ce1d9e5de@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <474d758eead7409c99311d4ce1d9e5de@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: Hi Kevin Frustrating isn’t it. Try calling the tech support line and then enter the number 8. You should get a real person. > On Apr 5, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > Curious if anyone has had any response from Schneider renewable energy tech support of late? I have submitted 4 cases over the last 3 weeks, couple warranty claims, couple tech questions - and have had absolutely zero response. > > My clients are starting to get irritated, and it is wasting much time. > > Kevin > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Apr 5 16:22:37 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2019 13:22:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Schneider_tech_support_AWOL=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <474d758eead7409c99311d4ce1d9e5de@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <019a01d4ebd5$2c441dd0$84cc5970$@OasisMontana.com> <001b01d4ebe1$6b19f820$414de860$@highspeedlink.net> Message-ID: Sandra Herrera @ SE is out of the office this week. I am sure she will comment on this thread. For my clients in really remote places, they know they have to have a second independent power system and 2nd genset. They may not do it but they know from me telling them over and over.... Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 14:10:18 -0600, Dan Fink wrote: Ray; I agree with "life-threatening" though most big city installers would laugh I'm afraid. Many older off-grid retirees need their oxygen concentrators, CPAP machines, other medical equipment, satphones and internet phones for check-ins with family. They are simply trying to live their lives to the fullest. Around here in NOCO it's almost always elk, deer and turkey hunting "cabins" (they range from very simple one-room to full-service, with extra wine fridge). My personal best -- Magnum tech support when I called from northern BC Canada. Had to hike a mile to get clear satphone. Honda 3000i not working with the small Magnum inverter/charger Explained problem, said "On satphone, I'm sitting here until you call me back, this is $1 a minute, and I'm watching grizzly bears on the trail below me." And got a callback from Magnum in 30 minutes. Not a solution, but an immediate and effective workaround. We eventually found the solution once I was back to normal phone service. Midnite Solar has also been similarly responsive when I have to drive to the top of a pass to have phone service, then drive back to the clients location, back and forth. These little tech support things make a big impact way off the grid, both for my bottom line and my client's well-being. AND, how I choose which equipment I install. Dan Fink Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC IREC Certified Instructor(tm) for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP PV Associate Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com [3] 970-672-4342 On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 1:13 PM Ray wrote: Over the many years, this type of info is exactly what has made the Wrench list so valuable. We get the real installer perspective on equipment, not just the slick brochure. Poor tech support is not just a gripe, it is a potentially fatal problem for off grid clients going without power for weeks waiting for you to fix it. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com [4] mailto:ray at solarray.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Apr 5 18:09:34 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2019 18:09:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? Message-ID: <5pqvfdls2pv37ipf6349kcjd.1554502141851@email.lge.com> Vince,We were asked not to share that information...Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone------ Original message------From: Vince McClellanDate: Fri, Apr 5, 2019 5:28 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL?Hi Kevin Frustrating isn’t it. Try calling the tech support line and then enter the number 8. You should get a real person.On Apr 5, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: Hi Wrenches,   Curious if anyone has had any response from Schneider renewable energy tech support of late? I have submitted 4 cases over the last 3 weeks, couple warranty claims, couple tech questions - and have had absolutely zero response.   My clients are starting to get irritated, and it is wasting much time.   Kevin   _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Apr 5 16:31:34 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 20:31:34 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does SMA have a SGIP-compliant (i.e. Smart Storage) Product? In-Reply-To: <5110726f1d7ef3892c3997eb23aeb9c2@127.0.0.1> References: <0MSt2R-1hJBOG241d-00RmoF@mrelay.perfora.net>, <5110726f1d7ef3892c3997eb23aeb9c2@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Wrenches – you are all correct about ensuring the surge rating. And now the battery + BMS must also be checked. A few comments from SMA’s side: The SBS must have the Automatic Backup Unit (ABU) accessory installed to function off-grid beyond the Secure Power Supply capability. This unit includes (installed and internally wired): 200A contactor for grid isolation, control board to tell the SBS to become a grid former, a 5kVA autoformer, 50A breakers for 1 x PV AND 1 x SBS AC outputs, and Wattnode energy meter with CTS on conductors from 200A contactor. Data sheet on webpage, listing** 60s and 100ms surge capability: https://files.sma.de/dl/30859/SBSABU-DUS185117.pdf ** Using a SBS 6.0 with battery whose BMS will allow that surge. <-- Here the BYD Battery Box HV 10 would likely be best, as noted by many the battery BMS must also allow the DC power to meet this surge rating! Eagle-eyed viewers will note this is slightly lower than one SI 4548-US surge. The Sunny Boy Storage was built to be a grid-tied battery inverter, the Sunny Island to be an off-grid battery inverter. Both CAN work well as grid-tied battery backup inverters, it depends on the customer needs. Standard legal disclaimer – SMA never approves life-sustaining equipment be powered solely by our inverters. Best- Mike From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 12:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Does SMA have a SGIP-compliant (i.e. Smart Storage) Product? Definitely agree with Kienan. The LG 48V project with Schneider failed because LG could not handle the surge of an XW6848. LG Chem indicated to me that the second half of 2019, they may announce something. I am working on a project that is running 17 Discover AES and 3 XW+. It has some issues but surge is not one of them. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 18:04:55 +0000, Kienan Maxfield > wrote: Peter, Just a quick word of caution... If you are going to need backup power then just double check that the surge capabilities of these inverters will work for you. I know nothing about the Tesla, but I do know that most of the newer battery inverters like the SMA Sunny Boy Storage, the Solar Edge StorEdge, Outback's Skybox, and others, often have pathetic surge capabilities. If Arbitrage and/or very small backup is your game then it's not a big deal, but for my projects, this instantly counts them out. Fronius was going to bring in a battery inverter (I don't know if or when) but their product was going to have the same problem according to the techs at Fronius that I know. Now if you're comparing these against the SB "Secure Power Supply" then yeah, they can handle a lot of loads, but once you pay out all that money for the batteries, then most of my customers are going to expect a more substantial backup capacity. Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Marco Mangelsdorf > Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 10:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does SMA have a SGIP-compliant (i.e. Smart Storage) Product? Welcome back, Peter, to the Brave New World of grid-tie plus storage plus SGIP plus bulk services plus plus plus. From my perspective, Tesla and LGC/SolarEdge are the furthest along in this new journey beyond the dinosaur designs and strategies of the 1980s to the early 2000s. At least if you look at the installation data from the two cutting/bleeding edge states of Hawaii and California. SMA is somewhat late to this particular dance. That said, I find your comments below kinda shocking. Blair Reynolds....are you out there? I've found him to be one of the most knowledgeable SMA guys on the Sunny Storage front. If he doesn't respond, let me know and I'll get you two together. Aloha, marco On Wednesday, April 3, 2019, Peter Parrish > wrote: When I was a C-46 contractor in California from 2000 to 2012, I used to do about 1/3 of my business as grid-tied battery backup and off-grid. I came to focus on the Outback solutions in general, and later the Radian 8048 and 240 A-hr AGM batteries. That was obviously a while ago. I became an educator and a consultant helping California K-12 school districts become more energy efficient and energy conserving. Nonetheless, I had a left-over client that was working through a full-house "gut and rebuild". I recommended the most efficient lighting, A/C, fridges. I helped him create dedicated branch circuits should he want to back-up critical loads. I designed a SMA/LG 12.4 kW roof mount system together with a 400 A 240/120 V split phase service panel. We were ready for battery back up and also told him that there was a new program – California SGIP. One-half of his service panel remains untouched. So with the SGIP Program, I put in a reservation to Southern California Edison for a 8 kW / 16 kWh (Sonnen ECO-16 -- based) "smart storage" system. The guys at Sonnen made a number of faux pas, so we went looking elsewhere. I really like the SMA SB inverters. The three MPP inputs, the secure power supply. So I thought since SMA claimed to have a "Sunny Boy Storage" system that was SGIP-compliant, and had taken this new product on a eight-city road show, we were "in like Flynn". Fast forward: I have spoken to my sales rep at Wesco, and FIVE – count them FIVE -- people at SMA Sales and presales Tech Support , and not one person claimes to have knowledge of the Sunny Boy Storage system. Have I gone blind, dum and crazy? I understand that StorEdge product has traction and I am ready to jump ship. What am I missing? Peter Parrish Peter T. Parrish Calofornia Solar Engineering 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at calsolareng.com -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 21:51:26 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 20:51:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does SMA have a SGIP-compliant (i.e. Smart Storage) Product? In-Reply-To: <0MSt2R-1hJBOG241d-00RmoF@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0MSt2R-1hJBOG241d-00RmoF@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: I had a similar experience with SMA on using the Sunny Island system. I tried several persons in tech support, none seemed to understand the Sunny Island. But I think I was working with the east coast office. On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 11:16 PM Peter Parrish wrote: > When I was a C-46 contractor in California from 2000 to 2012, I used to do > about 1/3 of my business as grid-tied battery backup and off-grid. I came > to focus on the Outback solutions in general, and later the Radian 8048 and > 240 A-hr AGM batteries. > > > > That was obviously a while ago. I became an educator and a consultant > helping California K-12 school districts become more energy efficient and > energy conserving. > > > > Nonetheless, I had a left-over client that was working through a > full-house “gut and rebuild”. I recommended the most efficient lighting, > A/C, fridges. I helped him create dedicated branch circuits should he want > to back-up critical loads. I designed a SMA/LG 12.4 kW roof mount system > together with a 400 A 240/120 V split phase service panel. We were ready > for battery back up and also told him that there was a new program – > California SGIP. One-half of his service panel remains untouched. > > > > So with the SGIP Program, I put in a reservation to Southern California > Edison for a 8 kW / 16 kWh (Sonnen ECO-16 -- based) “smart storage” > system. The guys at Sonnen made a number of faux pas, so we went looking > elsewhere. > > > > I really like the SMA SB inverters. The three MPP inputs, the secure power > supply. So I thought since SMA claimed to have a “Sunny Boy Storage” system > that was SGIP-compliant, and had taken this new product on a eight-city > road show, we were “in like Flynn”. > > > > Fast forward: I have spoken to my sales rep at Wesco, and FIVE – count > them FIVE -- people at SMA Sales and presales Tech Support , and not one > person claimes to have knowledge of the Sunny Boy Storage system. Have I > gone blind, dum and crazy? > > > > I understand that StorEdge product has traction and I am ready to jump > ship. What am I missing? > > > > Peter Parrish > > > > Peter T. Parrish > Calofornia Solar Engineering > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > peter.parrish at calsolareng.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Apr 5 21:18:36 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 18:18:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? In-Reply-To: <5pqvfdls2pv37ipf6349kcjd.1554502141851@email.lge.com> References: <5pqvfdls2pv37ipf6349kcjd.1554502141851@email.lge.com> Message-ID: <61fc8a8ef1aae690c4b8bae57a9cf88f@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I think it unconscionable that Schneider is hiding behind an automated façade. I am grateful to receive the “secret” number. This poor tech support is another reason I will not be specifying Schneider. Thanks Kevin. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt *Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2019 3:10 PM *To:* Vince McClellan; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? Vince, We were asked not to share that information... *Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone* ------ Original message------ *From: *Vince McClellan *Date: *Fri, Apr 5, 2019 5:28 PM *To: *RE-wrenches; *Cc: * *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? Hi Kevin Frustrating isn’t it. Try calling the tech support line and then enter the number 8. You should get a real person. On Apr 5, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: Hi Wrenches, Curious if anyone has had any response from Schneider renewable energy tech support of late? I have submitted 4 cases over the last 3 weeks, couple warranty claims, couple tech questions - and have had absolutely zero response. My clients are starting to get irritated, and it is wasting much time. Kevin _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:< /span> www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 08:06:12 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 08:06:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? In-Reply-To: <61fc8a8ef1aae690c4b8bae57a9cf88f@mail.gmail.com> References: <5pqvfdls2pv37ipf6349kcjd.1554502141851@email.lge.com> <61fc8a8ef1aae690c4b8bae57a9cf88f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, I have not tried to reach Schneider recently, so I can't speak to any changes in the last several months. However, previously, my experience with their tech support had been generally good, and certainly never comparably bad as the good old days of Xantrex. Hopefully folks' recent bad experience is an anomaly, I've been putting all my eggs in that basket. And I think their new support protocol actually has installers in mind, by giving us a less crowded phone support when we need it. They vet folks to make sure they are actually installers and they're resources are geared toward the folks we really want them to support so that we are not left on hold for hours. Hopefully this is working the way I assume it is supposed to be working. Howie On Sat, Apr 6, 2019, 12:57 AM William Miller N: > > > > I think it unconscionable that Schneider is hiding behind an automated > façade. I am grateful to receive the “secret” number. This poor tech > support is another reason I will not be specifying Schneider. > > > > Thanks Kevin. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, > > really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2019 3:10 PM > *To:* Vince McClellan; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? > > > > Vince, > > We were asked not to share that information... > > > > > > > > *Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone* > > > > ------ Original message------ > > *From: *Vince McClellan > > *Date: *Fri, Apr 5, 2019 5:28 PM > > *To: *RE-wrenches; > > *Cc: * > > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? > > > > Hi Kevin > > Frustrating isn’t it. Try calling the tech support line and then enter the > number 8. You should get a real person. > > > > > On Apr 5, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Kevin Pegg > wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > Curious if anyone has had any response from Schneider renewable energy > tech support of late? I have submitted 4 cases over the last 3 weeks, > couple warranty claims, couple tech questions - and have had absolutely > zero response. > > > > My clients are starting to get irritated, and it is wasting much time. > > > > Kevin > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:< /span> > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Apr 6 07:52:24 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2019 07:52:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? Message-ID: William,If you were to register through the website as the support number and the website and the representative on here asked, you would have been provided with the access number, just like the others of us who have followed their requested procedure.Having worked the other side of telephone support line, I understand their attempts to screen calls into installers who they can expect will have a modicum of system comprehension, and all others in their troubleshooting attempts.They further categorize callers by asking for your NABCEP number (if you are so inclined) which would also aid in identifying a callers level of experience and comprehension.Circumventing their system helps no one.GlennSent from my Verizon LG Smartphone------ Original message------From: William MillerDate: Sat, Apr 6, 2019 12:57 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Vince McClellan;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL?Friends: I think it unconscionable that Schneider is hiding behind an automated façade.  I am grateful to receive the “secret” number.  This poor tech support is another reason I will not be specifying Schneider. Thanks Kevin. William Miller Solar17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985 Quote of the day:  “If there is a job you hate, get really, really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn BurtSent: Friday, April 5, 2019 3:10 PMTo: Vince McClellan; RE-wrenchesSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? Vince,We were asked not to share that information...   Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone ------ Original message------From: Vince McClellanDate: Fri, Apr 5, 2019 5:28 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? Hi Kevin Frustrating isn’t it. Try calling the tech support line and then enter the number 8. You should get a real person. On Apr 5, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote:Hi Wrenches,  Curious if anyone has had any response from Schneider renewable energy tech support of late? I have submitted 4 cases over the last 3 weeks, couple warranty claims, couple tech questions - and have had absolutely zero response.  My clients are starting to get irritated, and it is wasting much time.  Kevin _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:< /span>www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Apr 7 22:50:56 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 19:50:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plated versus unplated eyelets Message-ID: <2e831e04e76d927d88d34d7066b2b2e3@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Just wondering if anyone of you have a preference of finish on copper battery lead eyelets. I have always used tinned. I notice the plain copper are half the cost. I never really looked into this. Has anyone else? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Mon Apr 8 09:09:46 2019 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 13:09:46 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? In-Reply-To: <474d758eead7409c99311d4ce1d9e5de@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <474d758eead7409c99311d4ce1d9e5de@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: Kevin, Please contact me directly with case numbers, and I will follow up with the team. We are working on smoothing out the process, not to make excuses but we made several changes that have created challenges. Starting from creating a different access point for end-user and professionals, then we moved the team from California to Colorado. We are actively working the bugs, but I know we have also had some IT issues with email response. Regards, Sandra Herrera Sandra.herrera at se.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 9:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ Hi Wrenches, Curious if anyone has had any response from Schneider renewable energy tech support of late? I have submitted 4 cases over the last 3 weeks, couple warranty claims, couple tech questions - and have had absolutely zero response. My clients are starting to get irritated, and it is wasting much time. Kevin ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vince at solarenergydesign.com Mon Apr 8 11:49:42 2019 From: vince at solarenergydesign.com (Vince McClellan) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 11:49:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I went through the Schneider tech online support application process and received back a curt email that didn't give me access to their tech support forum and didn't answer any of my questions. After several days of waiting and sending out emails I finally got the new tech support access number from a friend. In the meantime I was having an issue with the Xanbus network on a 20kW stand alone system and my client was losing patience. I'm not sure what glitch happened that I was not able to get the information that I needed by going through the Schneider tech support application process. The telephone support numbers that they sent me in emails as the tech support access numbers were not even real phone numbers. I talked with others that had the same experience at that time so I know I wasn't alone in my issues with getting though to tech support. I'm assuming that Schneider has corrected the issue by now. The guys at Schneider tech support have been awesome to work with and I'm still specifying Schneider products for most of my battery based systems. I didn't know that that number wasn't to be shared as I didn't get any real information from Schneider regarding the access number. My apologies! I do agree that it's important to not have our clients call tech support directly. Vince McClellan Energy Design NABCEP PV Installation Professional p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient please delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 7:52 AM Glenn Burt wrote: > William, > If you were to register through the website as the support number and the > website and the representative on here asked, you would have been provided > with the access number, just like the others of us who have followed their > requested procedure. > Having worked the other side of telephone support line, I understand their > attempts to screen calls into installers who they can expect will have a > modicum of system comprehension, and all others in their troubleshooting > attempts. > They further categorize callers by asking for your NABCEP number (if you > are so inclined) which would also aid in identifying a callers level of > experience and comprehension. > Circumventing their system helps no one. > > Glenn > > *Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone* > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *William Miller > *Date: *Sat, Apr 6, 2019 12:57 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches;Vince McClellan; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? > > Friends: > > > > I think it unconscionable that Schneider is hiding behind an automated > façade. I am grateful to receive the “secret” number. This poor tech > support is another reason I will not be specifying Schneider. > > > > Thanks Kevin. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, > > really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2019 3:10 PM > *To:* Vince McClellan; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? > > > > Vince, > > We were asked not to share that information... > > > > > > > > *Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone* > > > > ------ Original message------ > > *From: *Vince McClellan > > *Date: *Fri, Apr 5, 2019 5:28 PM > > *To: *RE-wrenches; > > *Cc: * > > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? > > > > Hi Kevin > > Frustrating isn’t it. Try calling the tech support line and then enter the > number 8. You should get a real person. > > > > > On Apr 5, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Kevin Pegg > wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > > > Curious if anyone has had any response from Schneider renewable energy > tech support of late? I have submitted 4 cases over the last 3 weeks, > couple warranty claims, couple tech questions - and have had absolutely > zero response. > > > > My clients are starting to get irritated, and it is wasting much time. > > > > Kevin > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:< /span> > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Mon Apr 8 16:33:03 2019 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 20:33:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hijacked Website In-Reply-To: <20140430161633.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.e8d9731a04.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> References: <20140430161633.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.e8d9731a04.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> Message-ID: The saga continues.. We were just contacted by Family Services from WV seeking payroll info on a fictitious employee who claimed to work for us but gave contact info for the website (Foxfire-Energy-Corporation).. They did give them our phone #.. They're out there folks.. db ________________________________ From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org on behalf of Foxfire Energy Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 7:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hijacked Website Merry Mud season everyone, We just got the heads up from NABCEP that our website (www.Foxfire-Energy.com) has been hijacked by a fictitious renewable energy organization (www.Foxfire-Energy-Corporation.com). Seems they copied our web site info and posted it on their site with minor modification. a google search of their business location puts them on a dirt road in the middle of no where like three towns down. a phone call brings you to a Philippino sounding call center to a gent who identifies him self as Dutch. I want his Juggler for a chew toy for my Weinerdog. Just wondering if anyone else ran into this, and what might be our recourse. Is this the result of the end of Net Neutrality? Sorry Micheal if this is a off subject. We've worked hard to build up our industry's credibility. Irks me to see some scumbag cubicle dweller trying to cash in. Advice? Thanks db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 [cid:sigimg0 at da9845f8fc78e582ee1b54c217eda78d] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: sigimg0 URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Mon Apr 8 18:00:27 2019 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 15:00:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hijacked Website In-Reply-To: References: <20140430161633.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.e8d9731a04.wbe@email14.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <074101d4ee56$7a374e30$6ea5ea90$@greenwired.com> Hey Dan, I have seen scammers do this before they then usually try to order a bunch of stuff posing as you. You can usually go to https://whois.net/ and type in the web address to see who the account is registered to then contact the domain host and file a complaint to get them taken down. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 F: 707-923-2077 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Foxfire Energy Sent: Monday, April 08, 2019 1:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hijacked Website The saga continues.. We were just contacted by Family Services from WV seeking payroll info on a fictitious employee who claimed to work for us but gave contact info for the website (Foxfire-Energy-Corporation).. They did give them our phone #.. They're out there folks.. db _____ From: re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org on behalf of Foxfire Energy Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 7:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hijacked Website Merry Mud season everyone, We just got the heads up from NABCEP that our website (www.Foxfire-Energy.com) has been hijacked by a fictitious renewable energy organization (www.Foxfire-Energy-Corporation.com). Seems they copied our web site info and posted it on their site with minor modification. a google search of their business location puts them on a dirt road in the middle of no where like three towns down. a phone call brings you to a Philippino sounding call center to a gent who identifies him self as Dutch. I want his Juggler for a chew toy for my Weinerdog. Just wondering if anyone else ran into this, and what might be our recourse. Is this the result of the end of Net Neutrality? Sorry Micheal if this is a off subject. We've worked hard to build up our industry's credibility. Irks me to see some scumbag cubicle dweller trying to cash in. Advice? Thanks db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 25138 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Mon Apr 8 23:20:59 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 03:20:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plated versus unplated eyelets In-Reply-To: <2e831e04e76d927d88d34d7066b2b2e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <2e831e04e76d927d88d34d7066b2b2e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, The plain copper can corrode much faster. I like the tinned ones made by Quick Cable. You can get them from PV Cables. pvcables.com I really like PV Cables. They always treat me really well and their prices are great. Thanks, Kienan Mayfield Solar (801) 631-5584 maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com On Apr 7, 2019, at 10:28 PM, William Miller > wrote: Friends: Just wondering if anyone of you have a preference of finish on copper battery lead eyelets. I have always used tinned. I notice the plain copper are half the cost. I never really looked into this. Has anyone else? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Apr 9 09:31:07 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 06:31:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plated versus unplated eyelets In-Reply-To: References: <2e831e04e76d927d88d34d7066b2b2e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William - I would stick with tin coated copper battery cable lugs. The tin coating adds corrosion resistance to the copper - this is especially important for battery connections which already have a tendency to corrode. The ground lugs we all historically used on our racking systems should have been all tin coated copper (or now there are some tin coated aluminum) lugs with stainless hardware for the same reason. August Luminalt On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 8:21 PM Kienan Maxfield wrote: > William, > > The plain copper can corrode much faster. I like the tinned ones made by > Quick Cable. You can get them from PV Cables. pvcables.com > > I really like PV Cables. They always treat me really well and their prices > are great. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > Mayfield Solar > (801) 631-5584 > maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com > > > > > > On Apr 7, 2019, at 10:28 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > > > Just wondering if anyone of you have a preference of finish on copper > battery lead eyelets. I have always used tinned. I notice the plain > copper are half the cost. I never really looked into this. Has anyone > else? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, > > really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tom at solar-biz.com Tue Apr 9 13:54:27 2019 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 17:54:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plated versus unplated eyelets In-Reply-To: <2e831e04e76d927d88d34d7066b2b2e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <2e831e04e76d927d88d34d7066b2b2e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William Quick Cable makes two UL Listed lugs both are tin plated. The really heavy one is the MAGNA Lug and the more common one is the MAX Lug. We distribute both, so if you want more info call be. Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [TSBLOGODPIx500x200] tom at solar-biz.com MAIN TOLL FREE: 888-826-0939 DIRECT: 888-503-6772 International: 001-575-539-2111 PANAMA: 507-836-5588 X 122 FAX: 520-844-8442 www.thesolarbiz.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2019 9:51 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Plated versus unplated eyelets Friends: Just wondering if anyone of you have a preference of finish on copper battery lead eyelets. I have always used tinned. I notice the plain copper are half the cost. I never really looked into this. Has anyone else? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6229 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From Tom at solar-biz.com Tue Apr 9 14:03:06 2019 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 18:03:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason RELiON makes what you’re looking for in 24 volts Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [TSBLOGODPIx500x200] tom at solar-biz.com MAIN TOLL FREE: 888-826-0939 DIRECT: 888-503-6772 International: 001-575-539-2111 PANAMA: 507-836-5588 X 122 FAX: 520-844-8442 www.thesolarbiz.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, April 1, 2019 5:41 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Big AGM's and 24V Lithium batteries [Image removed by sender.] I just replaced a 48V Lithionics battery with a 51V and I saw on their spec sheet that they do 12V and 24V as well. It seems like a very solid battery and BMS, but I have limited information on longevity. On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 4:09 PM Chris Schaefer > wrote: G'Day All, Came across an older DIY 24v off-grid system. Looking to replace current AGM SunXtender batteries with less then 4 years on them but severely abused. Client won't go for my normal Rolls/Surrette because they are very sensitive to smells. Thus I was considering LiFePo4 batteries however I'm having difficulties locating them in a 24v bank. If you know of anyone that goes that way please let me know. So if I'm stuck with AGM's stored indoors what brand would you suggest for a heavy usage (1,500 Ahrs +) home? Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s [Image removed by sender.] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [Image removed by sender.] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 645 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Tue Apr 9 18:22:44 2019 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 22:22:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] WEEB-ADR clips References: <1453596889.856465.1554848564605.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1453596889.856465.1554848564605@mail.yahoo.com> Wrenches, Does anyone know where and if you can still get WEEB-ADR clips? I need 1,900 of them rather urgently. Any advice is appreciated. Best, Jerry Caldwell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Tue Apr 9 18:22:44 2019 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 22:22:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] WEEB-ADR clips References: <1453596889.856465.1554848564605.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1453596889.856465.1554848564605@mail.yahoo.com> Wrenches, Does anyone know where and if you can still get WEEB-ADR clips? I need 1,900 of them rather urgently. Any advice is appreciated. Best, Jerry Caldwell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 20:21:14 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 17:21:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] WEEB-ADR clips In-Reply-To: <1453596889.856465.1554848564605@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1453596889.856465.1554848564605.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1453596889.856465.1554848564605@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1CF6F37A-CB2F-4997-8864-246D608C4DD7@gmail.com> HI Jerry, Bryan at PV cables stocks most of the WEEB/Hubbell parts. 707-923-3000 pacific time jay peltz power > On Apr 9, 2019, at 3:22 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: > > Wrenches, > > Does anyone know where and if you can still get WEEB-ADR clips? I need 1,900 of them rather urgently. Any advice is appreciated. > > Best, > Jerry Caldwell > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Apr 9 23:06:09 2019 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 03:06:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi folks, Thought I'd give an update as to what I have learned in this process. Sandra Herra reached out to me and has been very useful in clarifying what has been going on here and helping clear out the backlog. I wasn't impressed when the first tech asked me to provide photos of the display showing the fault codes on a failed controller and asked if I had rebooted it. From what I have gathered, it appears that the Schneider renewable energy tech support has now gone to a new overseas call centre or some such entity, and they really dropped the ball in actually letting their techs on the ground (us) know, or even having this up and running before they shut down the old system. They know they screwed up. The first step is to register, which is nothing more complex than entering your name and address. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/installer-registration/ Once registered, you will get an email back with the "top secret" phone number which looks odd as it is an international number, but it does work. Why they don't have a regular 1-800 who knows. Curious what 011 international calls will cost us. The new email is Solar.support.nam at schneider-electric.com I suggested they put some sort of auto-reply function on re.techsupport at schneider-electric.com to let people know that this address is now ignored. Hopefully this is smoother sailing, time will tell if they have techs who actually know the product, or are just reading out of a manual. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Vince McClellan Sent: April-08-19 8:50 AM To: Glenn Burt Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? I went through the Schneider tech online support application process and received back a curt email that didn't give me access to their tech support forum and didn't answer any of my questions. After several days of waiting and sending out emails I finally got the new tech support access number from a friend. In the meantime I was having an issue with the Xanbus network on a 20kW stand alone system and my client was losing patience. I'm not sure what glitch happened that I was not able to get the information that I needed by going through the Schneider tech support application process. The telephone support numbers that they sent me in emails as the tech support access numbers were not even real phone numbers. I talked with others that had the same experience at that time so I know I wasn't alone in my issues with getting though to tech support. I'm assuming that Schneider has corrected the issue by now. The guys at Schneider tech support have been awesome to work with and I'm still specifying Schneider products for most of my battery based systems. I didn't know that that number wasn't to be shared as I didn't get any real information from Schneider regarding the access number. My apologies! I do agree that it's important to not have our clients call tech support directly. Vince McClellan Energy Design NABCEP PV Installation Professional p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 [https://docs.google.com/uc?id=0ByKMRX5zEeuAQlJCTTNUWnBtazg&export=download] If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient please delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 7:52 AM Glenn Burt > wrote: William, If you were to register through the website as the support number and the website and the representative on here asked, you would have been provided with the access number, just like the others of us who have followed their requested procedure. Having worked the other side of telephone support line, I understand their attempts to screen calls into installers who they can expect will have a modicum of system comprehension, and all others in their troubleshooting attempts. They further categorize callers by asking for your NABCEP number (if you are so inclined) which would also aid in identifying a callers level of experience and comprehension. Circumventing their system helps no one. Glenn Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone ------ Original message------ From: William Miller Date: Sat, Apr 6, 2019 12:57 AM To: RE-wrenches;Vince McClellan; Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? Friends: I think it unconscionable that Schneider is hiding behind an automated façade. I am grateful to receive the “secret” number. This poor tech support is another reason I will not be specifying Schneider. Thanks Kevin. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 3:10 PM To: Vince McClellan; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? Vince, We were asked not to share that information... Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone ------ Original message------ From: Vince McClellan Date: Fri, Apr 5, 2019 5:28 PM To: RE-wrenches; Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? Hi Kevin Frustrating isn’t it. Try calling the tech support line and then enter the number 8. You should get a real person. On Apr 5, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Kevin Pegg > wrote: Hi Wrenches, Curious if anyone has had any response from Schneider renewable energy tech support of late? I have submitted 4 cases over the last 3 weeks, couple warranty claims, couple tech questions - and have had absolutely zero response. My clients are starting to get irritated, and it is wasting much time. Kevin _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:< /span> www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Wed Apr 10 09:01:23 2019 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 13:01:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kevin, Thank you for the update and clarification. I want to expand on your description of the situation. The call center for technical support is in Denver Colorado, so when you call in you are in the US. The system supporting the end-user is in Madrid for the moment. Regards Sandra Herrera Sandra.herrera at se.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kevin Pegg Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2019 8:06 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ Hi folks, Thought I'd give an update as to what I have learned in this process. Sandra Herra reached out to me and has been very useful in clarifying what has been going on here and helping clear out the backlog. I wasn't impressed when the first tech asked me to provide photos of the display showing the fault codes on a failed controller and asked if I had rebooted it. From what I have gathered, it appears that the Schneider renewable energy tech support has now gone to a new overseas call centre or some such entity, and they really dropped the ball in actually letting their techs on the ground (us) know, or even having this up and running before they shut down the old system. They know they screwed up. The first step is to register, which is nothing more complex than entering your name and address. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/installer-registration/ Once registered, you will get an email back with the "top secret" phone number which looks odd as it is an international number, but it does work. Why they don't have a regular 1-800 who knows. Curious what 011 international calls will cost us. The new email is Solar.support.nam at schneider-electric.com I suggested they put some sort of auto-reply function on re.techsupport at schneider-electric.com to let people know that this address is now ignored. Hopefully this is smoother sailing, time will tell if they have techs who actually know the product, or are just reading out of a manual. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Vince McClellan Sent: April-08-19 8:50 AM To: Glenn Burt > Cc: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? I went through the Schneider tech online support application process and received back a curt email that didn't give me access to their tech support forum and didn't answer any of my questions. After several days of waiting and sending out emails I finally got the new tech support access number from a friend. In the meantime I was having an issue with the Xanbus network on a 20kW stand alone system and my client was losing patience. I'm not sure what glitch happened that I was not able to get the information that I needed by going through the Schneider tech support application process. The telephone support numbers that they sent me in emails as the tech support access numbers were not even real phone numbers. I talked with others that had the same experience at that time so I know I wasn't alone in my issues with getting though to tech support. I'm assuming that Schneider has corrected the issue by now. The guys at Schneider tech support have been awesome to work with and I'm still specifying Schneider products for most of my battery based systems. I didn't know that that number wasn't to be shared as I didn't get any real information from Schneider regarding the access number. My apologies! I do agree that it's important to not have our clients call tech support directly. Vince McClellan Energy Design NABCEP PV Installation Professional p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 [https://docs.google.com/uc?id=0ByKMRX5zEeuAQlJCTTNUWnBtazg&export=download] If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient please delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 7:52 AM Glenn Burt > wrote: William, If you were to register through the website as the support number and the website and the representative on here asked, you would have been provided with the access number, just like the others of us who have followed their requested procedure. Having worked the other side of telephone support line, I understand their attempts to screen calls into installers who they can expect will have a modicum of system comprehension, and all others in their troubleshooting attempts. They further categorize callers by asking for your NABCEP number (if you are so inclined) which would also aid in identifying a callers level of experience and comprehension. Circumventing their system helps no one. Glenn Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone ------ Original message------ From: William Miller Date: Sat, Apr 6, 2019 12:57 AM To: RE-wrenches;Vince McClellan; Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? Friends: I think it unconscionable that Schneider is hiding behind an automated façade. I am grateful to receive the “secret” number. This poor tech support is another reason I will not be specifying Schneider. Thanks Kevin. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 3:10 PM To: Vince McClellan; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? Vince, We were asked not to share that information... Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone ------ Original message------ From: Vince McClellan Date: Fri, Apr 5, 2019 5:28 PM To: RE-wrenches; Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? Hi Kevin Frustrating isn’t it. Try calling the tech support line and then enter the number 8. You should get a real person. On Apr 5, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Kevin Pegg > wrote: Hi Wrenches, Curious if anyone has had any response from Schneider renewable energy tech support of late? I have submitted 4 cases over the last 3 weeks, couple warranty claims, couple tech questions - and have had absolutely zero response. My clients are starting to get irritated, and it is wasting much time. Kevin _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:< /span> www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Wed Apr 10 11:30:54 2019 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 15:30:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] WEEB-ADR clips In-Reply-To: <1CF6F37A-CB2F-4997-8864-246D608C4DD7@gmail.com> References: <1453596889.856465.1554848564605.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1453596889.856465.1554848564605@mail.yahoo.com> <1CF6F37A-CB2F-4997-8864-246D608C4DD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1879251447.95293.1554910254817@mail.yahoo.com> Thank you Jay. Cheers, Jerry Caldwell On Tue Apr 09 2019 17:54:30 GMT-0700 (PDT), jay wrote: HI Jerry, Bryan at PV cables stocks most of the WEEB/Hubbell parts. 707-923-3000 pacific time jay peltz power On Apr 9, 2019, at 3:22 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: Wrenches, Does anyone know where and if you can still get WEEB-ADR clips? I need 1,900 of them rather urgently. Any advice is appreciated. Best, Jerry Caldwell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Apr 10 11:31:24 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 11:31:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HV Module Testing Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, We are troubleshooting an array of Orion modules, either 230s or 250s. The array is showing a ground fault. We would like to test these modules with an insulation tester? We would like to apply 500 V or 1000 V to each the + and – and test resistance to ground. Is this practice safe for individual PV modules? Is there anything I should be aware of before attempting this? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 13:35:50 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:35:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HV Module Testing In-Reply-To: <20190410153137.65565107388@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20190410153137.65565107388@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Drake I have performed test for manufactures and you must keep the test voltage under the max rated voltage of the module, we have a bunch of tests we do but in short, you need to see the modules up close, look at the edges and back sheets look for green, brown or black spots, you need to do testing both dry first then wet if it is a ground fault concern. Most of the time the visual will find the issues but you still want to verify what you think you see. Make sure you look at the wiring to and from, the combiner box(s) or even the inverter(s). On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 8:31 AM Drake wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > We are troubleshooting an array of Orion modules, either 230s or 250s. The > array is showing a ground fault. > > We would like to test these modules with an insulation tester? > > We would like to apply 500 V or 1000 V to each the + and – and test > resistance to ground. > > Is this practice safe for individual PV modules? Is there anything I > should be aware of before attempting this? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Apr 10 18:07:14 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 18:07:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HV Module Testing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <990d31e095ebba43702725a1f2258410fc0c5fd9@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> That is very helpful. If I do the high voltage test, can I test from both positive to the frame and negative to the frame? Thanks, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To:"RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent:Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:35:50 -0700 Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] HV Module Testing Drake I have performed test for manufactures and you must keep the test voltage under the max rated voltage of the module, we have a bunch of tests we do but in short, you need to see the modules up close, look at the edges and back sheets look for green, brown or black spots, you need to do testing both dry first then wet if it is a ground fault concern. Most of the time the visual will find the issues but you still want to verify what you think you see. Make sure you look at the wiring to and from, the combiner box(s) or even the inverter(s). On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 8:31 AM Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, We are troubleshooting an array of Orion modules, either 230s or 250s. The array is showing a ground fault. We would like to test these modules with an insulation tester? We would like to apply 500 V or 1000 V to each the + and – and test resistance to ground.   Is this practice safe for individual PV modules? Is there anything I should be aware of before attempting this? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [3] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [5] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] Links: ------ [1] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [2] http://athens-electric.com/ [3] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 18:43:11 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 15:43:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HV Module Testing In-Reply-To: <990d31e095ebba43702725a1f2258410fc0c5fd9@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <5cae7182.1c69fb81.7f60e.c5b3@mx.google.com> Current will pass through so just one hot leg to earth, be carefull not to overload the diodes, l have never had an issue but you never know. JerrySent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Date: 4/10/19 3:07 PM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] HV Module Testing That is very helpful. If I do the high voltage test, can I test from both positive to the frame and negative to the frame? Thanks,Drake ----- Original Message -----From: "RE-wrenches" To:"RE-wrenches" Cc:Sent:Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:35:50 -0700Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] HV Module TestingDrakeI have performed test for manufactures and you must keep the test voltage under the max rated voltage of the module, we have a bunch of tests we do but in short, you need to see the modules up close, look at the edges and back sheets look for green, brown or black spots, you need to do testing both dry first then wet if it is a ground fault concern. Most of the time the visual will find the issues but you still want to verify what you think you see. Make sure you look at the wiring to and from, the combiner box(s) or even the inverter(s).On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 8:31 AM Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, We are troubleshooting an array of Orion modules, either 230s or 250s. The array is showing a ground fault. We would like to test these modules with an insulation tester? We would like to apply 500 V or 1000 V to each the + and – and test resistance to ground.   Is this practice safe for individual PV modules? Is there anything I should be aware of before attempting this? Thanks, DrakeDrake ChamberlinAthens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328http://athens-electric.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Apr 10 18:51:42 2019 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 15:51:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HV Module Testing In-Reply-To: <990d31e095ebba43702725a1f2258410fc0c5fd9@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <990d31e095ebba43702725a1f2258410fc0c5fd9@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: The IEC 62446 standard for IRT on PV is: Voc at STC x 1.25 = 120 V to ≤ 500 V, test to 500 V Voc at STC x 1.25 = > 500 V, test to 1,000 V They specify using one of two methods: 1. With the array short circuited (a la the Seaward test meter style) 2. Testing both positive and negative to ground - both the negative and positive leads need to be isolated (fuse open/breaker off, and disconnected from parallel busbar connections). In my experience, putting the meter in series (meter positive to PV negative, meter negative to ground) is usually sufficient for finding ground-faults. Make sure the meter-to-ground connection is low resistance, and that the connection point is something that is actually bonded to the equipment grounding system. Temperature, humidity, and the amount of "glass" being tested will have significant impacts on measured results, but you're really looking for an outlier, assuming it isn't a hard fault that could've been found with a DMM or a visual inspection. Always a good idea to check with the module manufacturer to see if they have documentation on their recommended procedure. Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 3:07 PM wrote: > That is very helpful. If I do the high voltage test, can I test from both > positive to the frame and negative to the frame? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > "RE-wrenches" > > To: > "RE-wrenches" > Cc: > > Sent: > Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:35:50 -0700 > Subject: > Re: [RE-wrenches] HV Module Testing > > > Drake > I have performed test for manufactures and you must keep the test voltage > under the max rated voltage of the module, we have a bunch of tests we do > but in short, you need to see the modules up close, look at the edges and > back sheets look for green, brown or black spots, you need to do testing > both dry first then wet if it is a ground fault concern. Most of the time > the visual will find the issues but you still want to verify what you think > you see. Make sure you look at the wiring to and from, the combiner box(s) > or even the inverter(s). > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 8:31 AM Drake < > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> We are troubleshooting an array of Orion modules, either 230s or 250s. >> The array is showing a ground fault. >> >> We would like to test these modules with an insulation tester? >> >> We would like to apply 500 V or 1000 V to each the + and – and test >> resistance to ground. >> >> Is this practice safe for individual PV modules? Is there anything I >> should be aware of before attempting this? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> >> >> >> >> >> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified >> Solar PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Apr 10 22:07:26 2019 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 02:07:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] WEEB-ADR clips In-Reply-To: <1453596889.856465.1554848564605@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1453596889.856465.1554848564605.ref@mail.yahoo.com>, <1453596889.856465.1554848564605@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You should check with your electrical supplier. We have sourced some weebs and I recall they were burndy Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Apr 9, 2019, at 6:06 PM, Jerry Caldwell > wrote: Wrenches, Does anyone know where and if you can still get WEEB-ADR clips? I need 1,900 of them rather urgently. Any advice is appreciated. Best, Jerry Caldwell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Apr 11 06:39:24 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 06:39:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HV Module Testing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <771767b8881deb553ec0436871e8580108ecae0a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Voc is 37.1 That times 1.25 is 46.38 V It is less than 120 V, so I guess I can not test individual modules on the 500 V setting. Is that the case? Thanks, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 15:51:42 -0700 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] HV Module Testing The IEC 62446 standard for IRT on PV is: Voc at STC x 1.25 = 120 V to  ≤ 500 V, test to 500 V Voc at STC x 1.25 = > 500 V, test to 1,000 V They specify using one of two methods:  1. With the array short circuited (a la the Seaward test meter style) 2. Testing both positive and negative to ground - both the negative and positive leads need to be isolated (fuse open/breaker off, and disconnected from parallel busbar connections).  In my experience, putting the meter in series (meter positive to PV negative, meter negative to ground) is usually sufficient for finding ground-faults. Make sure the meter-to-ground connection is low resistance, and that the connection point is something that is actually bonded to the equipment grounding system.  Temperature, humidity, and the amount of "glass" being tested will have significant impacts on measured results, but you're really looking for an outlier, assuming it isn't a hard fault that could've been found with a DMM or a visual inspection. Always a good idea to check with the module manufacturer to see if they have documentation on their recommended procedure. Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org [1] SEI Professional Services http://www.s eisolarpros.com [2] On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 3:07 PM wrote: That is very helpful. If I do the high voltage test, can I test from both positive to the frame and negative to the frame? Thanks, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:35:50 -0700 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] HV Module Testing Drake I have performed test for manufactures and you must keep the test voltage under the max rated voltage of the module, we have a bunch of tests we do but in short, you need to see the modules up close, look at the edges and back sheets look for green, brown or black spots, you need to do testing both dry first then wet if it is a ground fault concern. Most of the time the visual will find the issues but you still want to verify what you think you see. Make sure you look at the wiring to and from, the combiner box(s) or even the inverter(s). On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 8:31 AM Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, We are troubleshooting an array of Orion modules, either 230s or 250s. The array is showing a ground fault. We would like to test these modules with an insulation tester? We would like to apply 500 V or 1000 V to each the + and – and test resistance to ground.   Is this practice safe for individual PV modules? Is there anything I should be aware of before attempting this? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ [7] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] Links: ------ [1] http://www.solarenergy.org [2] http://www.seisolarpros.com [3] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [4] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [7] http://athens-electric.com/ [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [16] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Thu Apr 11 11:20:16 2019 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 08:20:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-One Off-Grid Power System-Nimbus Power Message-ID: Anyone have any experience with these guys? Seems like a cool product but not a lot of info out there. Nimbus Power Systems -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 11 11:37:20 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 08:37:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] All-In-One Off-Grid Power System-Nimbus Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No but it looks promising with the numbers. Where made and how much? Here is another similar that showed up in my inbox. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JO3BNDBGVjomlg3a09KRbKrnfwXsREyS/view [1] Downside on these is, They would be a new spare for me to have for my Outback and Schneider offgrid systems. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [3] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 08:20:16 -0700, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: Anyone have any experience with these guys? Seems like a cool product but not a lot of info out there. Nimbus Power Systems [4] -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com [5] californiasolarco.com [6] MAIN: 530-274-3671 EXT: 311 FAX: 530-274-7518 SHOWROOM LOCATED AT: 149 E MAIN ST. GRASS VALLEY, CA 95945 -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [8] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [9] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JO3BNDBGVjomlg3a09KRbKrnfwXsREyS/view [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] https://www.nimbuspowersystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/HPS12-300-Specification-Sheet-Rev-2.2.pdf [5] mailto:loren at cal-solar.com [6] http://californiasolarco.com [7] https://californiasolarco.com/referral_form/ [8] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [9] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Apr 11 12:37:09 2019 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 10:37:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems Message-ID: <01a501d4f084$cf956210$6ec02630$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems at high altitudes? Have you had any particular issues with them? Last year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters (and also Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft. Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 17:39:40 2019 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 15:39:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems In-Reply-To: <01a501d4f084$cf956210$6ec02630$@OasisMontana.com> References: <01a501d4f084$cf956210$6ec02630$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris; I am deeply concerned about this as nearly 100% of the systems I install are at 8000 ft (2500m) or higher. I've never had a problem with warranty claims to Outback or Schneider up to this time. If this is a "new thing" I'd really like to know about it, on list or off. The alitude de-rate stuff seems to involve dialectric ratings on the transformer coils, and low air density for cooling. I think that's all in ANSI. Dan Fink Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP PV Associate Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com 970-672-4342 On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 1:28 PM wrote: > Hi folks: > > > > I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems > at high altitudes? Have you had any particular issues with them? Last > year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters > (and also Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft. > > > > Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude. > > > > Best, > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 11 17:33:08 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 14:33:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems In-Reply-To: <01a501d4f084$cf956210$6ec02630$@OasisMontana.com> References: <01a501d4f084$cf956210$6ec02630$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <9b0399de56278b22c774f7663c3b3270@127.0.0.1> I just read the XW pro warranty and the environmental usage. There is no mention of altitude being a limiting factor of warranty. The XWP does derate power based on heatsink and ambient temperature. I am testing the beta here and it has been solid. I cc'd Sandra from Schneider and will pass this on to Engineering. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 10:37:09 -0600, wrote: Hi folks: I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems at high altitudes? Have you had any particular issues with them? Last year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters (and also Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft. Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com [3] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Apr 12 00:55:23 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 22:55:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems In-Reply-To: References: <01a501d4f084$cf956210$6ec02630$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: We've had some systems at 11,000 ft plus, for almost 20 years. We have mixtures of Outback, Midnite, Blue Sky, and old Trace equipment.  Never any issues with electronics related to altitude.  Actually the altitude related system issues are generator derating, and array output exceeding STC ratings on really clear cold days due to the thin atmosphere.  The third issue would be installers not being able to catch our breath after jogging back to the truck. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/11/19 3:39 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > Hi Chris; I am deeply concerned about this as nearly 100% of the > systems I install are at 8000 ft (2500m) or higher. I've never had a > problem with warranty claims to Outback or Schneider up to this time. > If this is a "new thing" I'd really like to know about it, on list or > off. > > The alitude de-rate stuff seems to involve dialectric ratings on the > transformer coils, and low air density for cooling. I think that's all > in ANSI. > > > Dan Fink > Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP PV Associate > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com > > 970-672-4342 > > > > On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 1:28 PM > wrote: > > Hi folks: > > I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter > systems at high altitudes?Have you had any particular issues with > them?Last year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that > Schneider inverters (and also Outback) are not warranted above > 6500 ft. > > Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude. > > Best, > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Fri Apr 12 09:07:56 2019 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 07:07:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems In-Reply-To: References: <01a501d4f084$cf956210$6ec02630$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <00cd01d4f130$bf9675a0$3ec360e0$@OasisMontana.com> Folks: The issue here ulltimately isn’t whether it works or not, it’s if it’s WARRANTED. Some purchasers (in this case the USFS) mandate that all equipment be warranted for high altitudes. And that leaves out several major suppliers. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:55 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems We've had some systems at 11,000 ft plus, for almost 20 years. We have mixtures of Outback, Midnite, Blue Sky, and old Trace equipment. Never any issues with electronics related to altitude. Actually the altitude related system issues are generator derating, and array output exceeding STC ratings on really clear cold days due to the thin atmosphere. The third issue would be installers not being able to catch our breath after jogging back to the truck. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/11/19 3:39 PM, Dan Fink wrote: Hi Chris; I am deeply concerned about this as nearly 100% of the systems I install are at 8000 ft (2500m) or higher. I've never had a problem with warranty claims to Outback or Schneider up to this time. If this is a "new thing" I'd really like to know about it, on list or off. The alitude de-rate stuff seems to involve dialectric ratings on the transformer coils, and low air density for cooling. I think that's all in ANSI. Dan Fink Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP PV Associate Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com 970-672-4342 On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 1:28 PM > wrote: Hi folks: I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems at high altitudes? Have you had any particular issues with them? Last year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters (and also Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft. Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Apr 12 11:17:20 2019 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 08:17:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems In-Reply-To: <00cd01d4f130$bf9675a0$3ec360e0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <01a501d4f084$cf956210$6ec02630$@OasisMontana.com> <00cd01d4f130$bf9675a0$3ec360e0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Not to add fuel to the fire... and it's been almost 7 years since I've been with an Inverter manufacturer so here is my .02 cents... So again, I hope I'm not overstepping the boundaries of the Wrenches list. If I remember correctly the main issue with the high altitude installs are some of the components that are used to build the inverter/controllers aren't rated to be used at high altitude, one of the main components that have this issue is the electrolytic capacitors. Of course, the specs vary from component to component. I've seen some rated as low as 8000 ft to some as rated as high as 30,000 ft. It really just depends on the part(s) that the manufacturer used to build the product. As you gain altitude the temperatures and the air pressure decrease, as it was explained to me years ago the problem is with the temperature decrease, this will affect the capacitance of the capacitor. The colder temps will reduce the overall capacitance of the capacitor, just like it will with a battery. These caps are generally used to filter noise from circuits, so when these fail, or the capacitance values fall, you don't get the filtering you need and this induces noise into your circuitry possibly causing overall failure or worse, the dreaded intermittent failure. Generally, if the inverters/controllers are kept on and warm, you won't have too many problems, it's when they are in extremely cold temperatures is when you will start having issues. Hope this helps! Have a good weekend! Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 7:47 AM wrote: > Folks: > > > > The issue here ulltimately isn’t whether it works or not, it’s if it’s > WARRANTED. Some purchasers (in this case the USFS) mandate that all > equipment be warranted for high altitudes. And that leaves out several > major suppliers. > > > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Ray > *Sent:* Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:55 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems > > > > We've had some systems at 11,000 ft plus, for almost 20 years. We have > mixtures of Outback, Midnite, Blue Sky, and old Trace equipment. Never any > issues with electronics related to altitude. Actually the altitude related > system issues are generator derating, and array output exceeding STC > ratings on really clear cold days due to the thin atmosphere. The third > issue would be installers not being able to catch our breath after jogging > back to the truck. > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/11/19 3:39 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Hi Chris; I am deeply concerned about this as nearly 100% of the systems I > install are at 8000 ft (2500m) or higher. I've never had a problem with > warranty claims to Outback or Schneider up to this time. If this is a "new > thing" I'd really like to know about it, on list or off. > > > > The alitude de-rate stuff seems to involve dialectric ratings on the > transformer coils, and low air density for cooling. I think that's all in > ANSI. > > > > > Dan Fink > > Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC > > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > NABCEP PV Associate > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting > > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > > dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com > > 970-672-4342 > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 1:28 PM wrote: > > Hi folks: > > > > I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems > at high altitudes? Have you had any particular issues with them? Last > year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters > (and also Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft. > > > > Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude. > > > > Best, > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Fri Apr 12 11:58:42 2019 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (Greg) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 07:58:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Just fyi, the Schneider registration does not work.  Tried it 2x earlier today. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/solar-installer-registration/ It gets you there and I filled it out but - got back an email stating: The original message was received at Thu, 11 Apr 2019 17:57:08 -0400 from mail-am5eur02lp2052.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.4.52] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- (reason: 550solarsupport-nam at schneider-electric.com... No such user) Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Fri Apr 12 12:28:29 2019 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 16:28:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg, I was notified that the email was bouncing back today, and we are working on the issue. solarsupport-nam at schneider-electric.com Sandra Herrera From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Greg Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 8:59 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ Wrenches, Just fyi, the Schneider registration does not work. Tried it 2x earlier today. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/solar-installer-registration/ It gets you there and I filled it out but - got back an email stating: The original message was received at Thu, 11 Apr 2019 17:57:08 -0400 from mail-am5eur02lp2052.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.4.52] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- (reason: 550 solarsupport-nam at schneider-electric.com... No such user) Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Apr 12 12:39:42 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 10:39:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Inverter? Message-ID: I just had a customer get a quote for a Sol-Ark inverter from an online sales outfit.  Does anyone have any experience with them, ever seen one, installed them, etc?  From the limited info I can see, they do not appear to have a UL listed battery disconnect system; I'm seeing flying battery cables in the few actual install pics.  They also claim to be "EMP hardened". -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 From jay at nunatakenergy.com Fri Apr 12 13:06:09 2019 From: jay at nunatakenergy.com (Jay Pozner) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:06:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems In-Reply-To: References: <01a501d4f084$cf956210$6ec02630$@OasisMontana.com> <00cd01d4f130$bf9675a0$3ec360e0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: We do a fair amount of systems at "altitude". Recently we had an issue with a Radian system at about 10,000'. An 8048 inverter screaming (fans running hard) with just 2000 watts of load. I hounded tech support for two years, and even after switching power modules, etc in the end the techs claim a fairly substantial deration (that I can't quote right now) of inverter performance because of cooling issues. We ultimately added another inverter to the system at the end of last summer. I hope this season we will see a better result. It makes sense, given the difference in air density, but I do scratch my head and wonder why we haven't seen such issues with the older FX's, and some of the older legacy systems? I also know that the Midnite classic charge controllers seem to run the fans quite hard as well. I haven't had to replace any of the fans, and the controllers are performing great, but wonder if that will be an issue in the future. It would be great if some manufactures would give us a quality, competitively priced, equipment that is rated for altitude, but I don't think there are that many options out there as of now . Jay Pozner (970) 642-5554 www.nunatakenergy.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert.#031310-177 On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:17 AM Steve Higgins wrote: > Not to add fuel to the fire... and it's been almost 7 years since I've > been with an Inverter manufacturer so here is my .02 cents... So again, I > hope I'm not overstepping the boundaries of the Wrenches list. > > If I remember correctly the main issue with the high altitude installs are > some of the components that are used to build the inverter/controllers > aren't rated to be used at high altitude, one of the main components that > have this issue is the electrolytic capacitors. Of course, the specs > vary from component to component. I've seen some rated as low as 8000 ft > to some as rated as high as 30,000 ft. It really just depends on the > part(s) that the manufacturer used to build the product. > > As you gain altitude the temperatures and the air pressure decrease, as it > was explained to me years ago the problem is with the temperature decrease, > this will affect the capacitance of the capacitor. The colder temps will > reduce the overall capacitance of the capacitor, just like it will with a > battery. > > These caps are generally used to filter noise from circuits, so when these > fail, or the capacitance values fall, you don't get the filtering you need > and this induces noise into your circuitry possibly causing overall failure > or worse, the dreaded intermittent failure. Generally, if the > inverters/controllers are kept on and warm, you won't have too many > problems, it's when they are in extremely cold temperatures is when you > will start having issues. > > Hope this helps! Have a good weekend! > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > <#m_-3008849777453347977_SignatureSanitizer_> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 7:47 AM wrote: > >> Folks: >> >> >> >> The issue here ulltimately isn’t whether it works or not, it’s if it’s >> WARRANTED. Some purchasers (in this case the USFS) mandate that all >> equipment be warranted for high altitudes. And that leaves out several >> major suppliers. >> >> >> >> >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Ray >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:55 PM >> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems >> >> >> >> We've had some systems at 11,000 ft plus, for almost 20 years. We have >> mixtures of Outback, Midnite, Blue Sky, and old Trace equipment. Never any >> issues with electronics related to altitude. Actually the altitude related >> system issues are generator derating, and array output exceeding STC >> ratings on really clear cold days due to the thin atmosphere. The third >> issue would be installers not being able to catch our breath after jogging >> back to the truck. >> >> Ray Walters >> >> Remote Solar >> >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 4/11/19 3:39 PM, Dan Fink wrote: >> >> Hi Chris; I am deeply concerned about this as nearly 100% of the systems >> I install are at 8000 ft (2500m) or higher. I've never had a problem with >> warranty claims to Outback or Schneider up to this time. If this is a "new >> thing" I'd really like to know about it, on list or off. >> >> >> >> The alitude de-rate stuff seems to involve dialectric ratings on the >> transformer coils, and low air density for cooling. I think that's all in >> ANSI. >> >> >> >> >> Dan Fink >> >> Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC >> >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> >> NABCEP PV Associate >> >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting >> >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers >> >> dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com >> >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 1:28 PM wrote: >> >> Hi folks: >> >> >> >> I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems >> at high altitudes? Have you had any particular issues with them? Last >> year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters >> (and also Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft. >> >> >> >> Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >> >> 406-777-4309 fax >> >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 14:26:05 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:26:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5cb0d841.1c69fb81.1f600.3478@mx.google.com> WrenchesHere is the math, well the answer at sea level your body has 14.70 PSI exerted on it, at 10,000 feet you only have 10.163 PSI, reduced air pressure, reduced cooling or heating ability adjusted for standard sea level temp or just over 69%.I have done work in Hawaii on the big island up at the summit, it can be warm and very thin air, without air to cool no inverter will perform very well. I have some SMA, FX and Raidians in warm high altitude locations and added extra cooling to compensate for the lack of air. You will hear the cooling fans spinning faster, moving less air at higher altitudes.SMA sunny island does have a 9k plus operating altitude but de-rates at less the 7k.JerryPV inspector Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Jay Pozner Date: 4/12/19 10:06 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems We do a fair amount of systems at "altitude".  Recently we had an issue with a Radian system at about 10,000'.  An 8048 inverter screaming (fans running hard) with just 2000 watts of load.  I hounded tech support for two years, and even after switching power modules, etc in the end the techs claim a fairly substantial deration (that I can't quote right now) of inverter performance because of cooling issues.  We  ultimately added another inverter to the system at the end of last summer.  I hope this season we will see a better result.   It makes sense, given the difference in air density, but I do scratch my head and wonder why we haven't seen such issues with the older FX's, and some of the older legacy systems?I also know that the Midnite classic charge controllers seem to run the fans quite hard as well.  I haven't had to replace any of the fans, and the controllers are performing great, but wonder if that will be an issue in the future.   It would be great if some manufactures would give us a quality, competitively priced, equipment that is rated for altitude, but I don't think there are that many options out there as of now.Jay Pozner(970) 642-5554www.nunatakenergy.comNABCEP Certified PV Installer:Cert.#031310-177On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:17 AM Steve Higgins wrote:Not to add fuel to the fire... and it's been almost 7 years since I've been with an Inverter manufacturer so here is my .02 cents...  So again, I hope I'm not overstepping the boundaries of the Wrenches list. If I remember correctly the main issue with the high altitude installs are some of the components that are used to build the inverter/controllers aren't rated to be used at high altitude, one of the main components that have this issue is the electrolytic capacitors.    Of course, the specs vary from component to component.   I've seen some rated as low as 8000 ft to some as rated as high as 30,000 ft.   It really just depends on the part(s) that the manufacturer used to build the product. As you gain altitude the temperatures and the air pressure decrease, as it was explained to me years ago the problem is with the temperature decrease, this will affect the capacitance of the capacitor.  The colder temps will reduce the overall capacitance of the capacitor, just like it will with a battery. These caps are generally used to filter noise from circuits, so when these fail, or the capacitance values fall, you don't get the filtering you need and this induces noise into your circuitry possibly causing overall failure or worse,  the dreaded intermittent failure.   Generally, if the inverters/controllers are kept on and warm, you won't have too many problems, it's when they are in extremely cold temperatures is when you will start having issues.  Hope this helps!   Have a good weekend!   Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840f +1.902.597.8447  e steve at surrette.com CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies.On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 7:47 AM wrote:Folks: The issue here ulltimately isn’t whether it works or not, it’s if it’s WARRANTED.  Some purchasers (in this case the USFS) mandate that all equipment be warranted for high altitudes.  And that leaves out several major suppliers.  Chris DaumOasis Montana Inc.  From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of RaySent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:55 PMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems We've had some systems at 11,000 ft plus, for almost 20 years.  We have mixtures of Outback, Midnite, Blue Sky, and old Trace equipment.  Never any issues with electronics related to altitude.  Actually the altitude related system issues are generator derating, and array output exceeding STC ratings on really clear cold days due to the thin atmosphere.  The third issue would be installers not being able to catch our breath after jogging back to the truck.  Ray WaltersRemote Solar303 505-8760On 4/11/19 3:39 PM, Dan Fink wrote:Hi Chris; I am deeply concerned about this as nearly 100% of the systems I install are at 8000 ft (2500m) or higher. I've never had a problem with warranty claims to Outback or Schneider up to this time. If this is a "new thing" I'd really like to know about it, on list or off.  The alitude de-rate stuff seems to involve dialectric ratings on the transformer coils, and low air density for cooling. I think that's all in ANSI. Dan FinkDirector of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLCIREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional~ Small Wind InstallerNABCEP PV AssociateExecutive Director, Buckville Energy ConsultingNABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providersdan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com970-672-4342   On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 1:28 PM wrote:Hi folks: I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems at high altitudes?  Have you had any particular issues with them?  Last year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters (and also Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft.   Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude.   Best, Chris DaumOasis Montana Inc.406-777-4309 or 4321406-777-4309 faxwww.oasismontana.com   _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org_______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Fri Apr 12 15:13:37 2019 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 19:13:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems In-Reply-To: <5cb0d841.1c69fb81.1f600.3478@mx.google.com> References: <5cb0d841.1c69fb81.1f600.3478@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <413df83f8fe249c5a29beca8de77b75f@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello All Outback’s Product Warranty is not based or negated by the altitude of the installation. Altitude ratings ensure full spec operation of the equipment up to the stated elevation . As noted in several posts due to thinner air cooling of equipment can be affected. Additional cooling may be required and or additional products to achieve the necessary load requirements. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jerrysgarage01 Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 11:26 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems Wrenches Here is the math, well the answer at sea level your body has 14.70 PSI exerted on it, at 10,000 feet you only have 10.163 PSI, reduced air pressure, reduced cooling or heating ability adjusted for standard sea level temp or just over 69%. I have done work in Hawaii on the big island up at the summit, it can be warm and very thin air, without air to cool no inverter will perform very well. I have some SMA, FX and Raidians in warm high altitude locations and added extra cooling to compensate for the lack of air. You will hear the cooling fans spinning faster, moving less air at higher altitudes. SMA sunny island does have a 9k plus operating altitude but de-rates at less the 7k. Jerry PV inspector Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Jay Pozner > Date: 4/12/19 10:06 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems We do a fair amount of systems at "altitude". Recently we had an issue with a Radian system at about 10,000'. An 8048 inverter screaming (fans running hard) with just 2000 watts of load. I hounded tech support for two years, and even after switching power modules, etc in the end the techs claim a fairly substantial deration (that I can't quote right now) of inverter performance because of cooling issues. We ultimately added another inverter to the system at the end of last summer. I hope this season we will see a better result. It makes sense, given the difference in air density, but I do scratch my head and wonder why we haven't seen such issues with the older FX's, and some of the older legacy systems? I also know that the Midnite classic charge controllers seem to run the fans quite hard as well. I haven't had to replace any of the fans, and the controllers are performing great, but wonder if that will be an issue in the future. It would be great if some manufactures would give us a quality, competitively priced, equipment that is rated for altitude, but I don't think there are that many options out there as of now . [http://static.squarespace.com/static/52f26626e4b049d9fe1f4f70/t/52fd4d40e4b0c0844a0eb2de/1393270590052/?format=1500w] Jay Pozner (970) 642-5554 www.nunatakenergy.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert.#031310-177 [http://static.squarespace.com/static/52f26626e4b049d9fe1f4f70/53067822e4b0822d0c7053a4/53067823e4b0ec57163c45a8/1392932899560/NABCEP%20PV%20Seal%20Jay.jpg?format=300w] On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:17 AM Steve Higgins > wrote: Not to add fuel to the fire... and it's been almost 7 years since I've been with an Inverter manufacturer so here is my .02 cents... So again, I hope I'm not overstepping the boundaries of the Wrenches list. If I remember correctly the main issue with the high altitude installs are some of the components that are used to build the inverter/controllers aren't rated to be used at high altitude, one of the main components that have this issue is the electrolytic capacitors. Of course, the specs vary from component to component. I've seen some rated as low as 8000 ft to some as rated as high as 30,000 ft. It really just depends on the part(s) that the manufacturer used to build the product. As you gain altitude the temperatures and the air pressure decrease, as it was explained to me years ago the problem is with the temperature decrease, this will affect the capacitance of the capacitor. The colder temps will reduce the overall capacitance of the capacitor, just like it will with a battery. These caps are generally used to filter noise from circuits, so when these fail, or the capacitance values fall, you don't get the filtering you need and this induces noise into your circuitry possibly causing overall failure or worse, the dreaded intermittent failure. Generally, if the inverters/controllers are kept on and warm, you won't have too many problems, it's when they are in extremely cold temperatures is when you will start having issues. Hope this helps! Have a good weekend! [https://i.imgur.com/uXcqgyz.png] Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/facebook_square_gray-24.png][http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/twitter_square_gray-24.png][http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/youtube_square_gray-24.png][http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/linkedin_square_gray-24.png][https://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/instagram_square-24.png] ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ________________________________ On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 7:47 AM > wrote: Folks: The issue here ulltimately isn’t whether it works or not, it’s if it’s WARRANTED. Some purchasers (in this case the USFS) mandate that all equipment be warranted for high altitudes. And that leaves out several major suppliers. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:55 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems We've had some systems at 11,000 ft plus, for almost 20 years. We have mixtures of Outback, Midnite, Blue Sky, and old Trace equipment. Never any issues with electronics related to altitude. Actually the altitude related system issues are generator derating, and array output exceeding STC ratings on really clear cold days due to the thin atmosphere. The third issue would be installers not being able to catch our breath after jogging back to the truck. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/11/19 3:39 PM, Dan Fink wrote: Hi Chris; I am deeply concerned about this as nearly 100% of the systems I install are at 8000 ft (2500m) or higher. I've never had a problem with warranty claims to Outback or Schneider up to this time. If this is a "new thing" I'd really like to know about it, on list or off. The alitude de-rate stuff seems to involve dialectric ratings on the transformer coils, and low air density for cooling. I think that's all in ANSI. Dan Fink Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP PV Associate Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com 970-672-4342 On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 1:28 PM > wrote: Hi folks: I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems at high altitudes? Have you had any particular issues with them? Last year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters (and also Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft. Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Apr 12 12:37:47 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 09:37:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support AWOL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ditto here. I tried it when the subject first came up and heard nothing. Therefore it was very handy to know the one digit, unannounced extension for tech support during a recent problem with XW inverters. I know we weren’t supposed to share that one digit number, but I am very glad we did. And by the way, I reached competent tech support immediately on the first try and after about 10 minutes on the second call. William Miller > On Apr 12, 2019, at 8:58 AM, Greg wrote: > > Wrenches, Just fyi, the Schneider registration does not work. Tried it 2x earlier today. > > https://solar.schneider-electric.com/solar-installer-registration/ > > It gets you there and I filled it out but - got back an email stating: > The original message was received at Thu, 11 Apr 2019 17:57:08 -0400 > from mail-am5eur02lp2052.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.4.52] > > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- > > (reason: 550 solarsupport-nam at schneider-electric.com... No such user) > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Fri Apr 12 17:49:52 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:49:52 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG CHEM Message-ID: Aloha all, I would be very interested in hearing feedback on the LG Chem RESU10H battery. As far as I know, it's only been compatible with either the SolarEdge StorEdge or SMA Sunny Storage inverters. Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 00:47:43 2019 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 00:47:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Inverter? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ray, I just quoted an off-grid project using the Sol-Ark. I use Alt-E for a supplier and they suggest the Midnite solar Mini-DC disconnect for the battery. They have heard good things about it and I am going against my previous requirement using one first or at least seeing one in action before making my customer the guinea pig. I will know in a few weeks how it works out. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service 200 West Road N. Chittenden, VT 802-770-8625 (new web site under construction. - offgridvermont,com SolarFest 2019 July-21 (one day event) www.solarfest.org SolarFest 2020 (25th year) big celebration Mid July at Magic Mountain, Londonderry, VT On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 12:39 PM Ray wrote: > I just had a customer get a quote for a Sol-Ark inverter from an online > sales outfit. Does anyone have any experience with them, ever seen one, > installed them, etc? From the limited info I can see, they do not > appear to have a UL listed battery disconnect system; I'm seeing flying > battery cables in the few actual install pics. They also claim to be > "EMP hardened". > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 00:53:38 2019 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 00:53:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG CHEM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Marco, I have only installed one LG Chem 10H with the StorEdge inverter for backup power in a vacation home and it has performed wellmany times over the last two years in power outages. Much easier installation than than dealing with Tesla Powerwall. John Blittersdorf On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 6:40 PM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Aloha all, > > I would be very interested in hearing feedback on the LG Chem RESU10H > battery. > > As far as I know, it's only been compatible with either the SolarEdge > StorEdge or SMA Sunny Storage inverters. > > Mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Sat Apr 13 13:45:47 2019 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (Greg) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 09:45:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 3648 tech support and parts Message-ID: Friends, I have a customer who's ready to upgrade to a larger system.  He has 6 - VFX3648 inverters that are 10 years old.  They're only used in the summer months but still going strong.  He needs to increase his system size to about 28kW. My understanding is that Outback no longer supports the old VFX inverters.  I'm wondering if anyone knows if we can still get parts? I did see an email from Tump that mentioned someone who repairs boards but I was wondering if I could get boards, maybe I could just install them in any outback inverter and make it into a VFX 3648 (if it had the vent /fan mount in it). Next I'm wondering if the MATE ever died if I could either get a replacement MATE or if a MATE 3 would be compatible?  Same question for the HUB10? The VFXs are certainly proven technology.  Hate to replace them if I don't have to. Thanks again, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 14:55:08 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 11:55:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 3648 tech support and parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Outback has a repair facility that have fixed out of warranty inverters and charge controllers Jerry On Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 11:02 AM Greg wrote: > Friends, > I have a customer who's ready to upgrade to a larger system. He has 6 - > VFX3648 inverters that are 10 years old. They're only used in the summer > months but still going strong. He needs to increase his system size to > about 28kW. > My understanding is that Outback no longer supports the old VFX > inverters. I'm wondering if anyone knows if we can still get parts? > > I did see an email from Tump that mentioned someone who repairs boards but > I was wondering if I could get boards, maybe I could just install them in > any outback inverter and make it into a VFX 3648 (if it had the vent /fan > mount in it). > > Next I'm wondering if the MATE ever died if I could either get a > replacement MATE or if a MATE 3 would be compatible? Same question for the > HUB10? > > The VFXs are certainly proven technology. Hate to replace them if I don't > have to. > Thanks again, > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Sat Apr 13 17:36:37 2019 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 21:36:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 3648 tech support and parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Outback still repairs heritage gear. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Greg Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2019 1:45:47 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 3648 tech support and parts Friends, I have a customer who's ready to upgrade to a larger system. He has 6 - VFX3648 inverters that are 10 years old. They're only used in the summer months but still going strong. He needs to increase his system size to about 28kW. My understanding is that Outback no longer supports the old VFX inverters. I'm wondering if anyone knows if we can still get parts? I did see an email from Tump that mentioned someone who repairs boards but I was wondering if I could get boards, maybe I could just install them in any outback inverter and make it into a VFX 3648 (if it had the vent /fan mount in it). Next I'm wondering if the MATE ever died if I could either get a replacement MATE or if a MATE 3 would be compatible? Same question for the HUB10? The VFXs are certainly proven technology. Hate to replace them if I don't have to. Thanks again, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 15:40:35 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 12:40:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback References: Message-ID: <89102729-E99C-4287-A63C-4110E6A5D927@gmail.com> HI Greg, You can still get FX/VFX boards. Outback doesn’t make the FX series, only the V/FXR models now, they are not compatible Mate 3s works on newer and older units Mate 1 doesn’t work on newer R or Radian versions kris Stone for parts. Kris will know but last time I checked you can get reconditioned/short warranty boards or new with full warranty for FX/VFX. As to 28kw, I’d go with the 4 Radian vs 8 stack FXR. jay peltz power > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Greg > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 3648 tech support and parts > Date: April 13, 2019 at 10:45:47 AM PDT > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Reply-To: RE-wrenches > > Friends, > I have a customer who's ready to upgrade to a larger system. He has 6 - VFX3648 inverters that are 10 years old. They're only used in the summer months but still going strong. He needs to increase his system size to about 28kW. > My understanding is that Outback no longer supports the old VFX inverters. I'm wondering if anyone knows if we can still get parts? > > I did see an email from Tump that mentioned someone who repairs boards but I was wondering if I could get boards, maybe I could just install them in any outback inverter and make it into a VFX 3648 (if it had the vent /fan mount in it). > > Next I'm wondering if the MATE ever died if I could either get a replacement MATE or if a MATE 3 would be compatible? Same question for the HUB10? > > The VFXs are certainly proven technology. Hate to replace them if I don't have to. > Thanks again, > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Apr 13 18:09:55 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 16:09:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback In-Reply-To: <89102729-E99C-4287-A63C-4110E6A5D927@gmail.com> References: <89102729-E99C-4287-A63C-4110E6A5D927@gmail.com> Message-ID: If there is a way to split your AC outputs to different sub panels,  you might be able to keep the legacy system operational to support one subpanel, and then have a multi Radian system (or other manu) power the other loads.  It can work, and also means that a failure in one inverter will not take the entire system off line.  I have a property with a mixture of Outback inverters and 4 old Trace SW series inverters, and its been online for almost 20 years.  We added the Outbacks when they added a new building, but they all operate off the same Large battery bank.  We just changed the original batteries out about a year ago, so its been fairly successful overall.  The shop welder and power tools are isolated from the house, so a power tool start doesn't dim the lights or reset the computer in the house.   Building a single totally integrated system that incorporates the old VFX gear is not feasible anymore though as others have mentioned. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/13/19 1:40 PM, jay wrote: > HI Greg, > > You can still get FX/VFX boards. > Outback doesn’t make the FX series,  only the V/FXR models now, they > are not compatible > > Mate 3s works on newer and older units > Mate 1 doesn’t work on newer R or Radian versions > > kris Stone > for parts. > Kris will know but last time I checked you can get reconditioned/short > warranty boards or new with full warranty for FX/VFX. > > As to 28kw, I’d go with the 4 Radian vs 8 stack FXR. > > jay > peltz power > > > > > > > >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> *From: *Greg > >> *Subject: **[RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 3648 tech support and parts* >> *Date: *April 13, 2019 at 10:45:47 AM PDT >> *To: *re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> *Reply-To: *RE-wrenches > > >> >> Friends, >> I have a customer who's ready to upgrade to a larger system.  He has >> 6 - VFX3648 inverters that are 10 years old.  They're only used in >> the summer months but still going strong.  He needs to increase his >> system size to about 28kW. >> My understanding is that Outback no longer supports the old VFX >> inverters.  I'm wondering if anyone knows if we can still get parts? >> >> I did see an email from Tump that mentioned someone who repairs >> boards but I was wondering if I could get boards, maybe I could just >> install them in any outback inverter and make it into a VFX 3648 (if >> it had the vent /fan mount in it). >> >> Next I'm wondering if the MATE ever died if I could either get a >> replacement MATE or if a MATE 3 would be compatible?  Same question >> for the HUB10? >> >> The VFXs are certainly proven technology.  Hate to replace them if I >> don't have to. >> Thanks again, >> >> Greg Egan >> Remote Power Inc. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Sun Apr 14 16:50:35 2019 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (Greg) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 12:50:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 3648 tech support and parts Message-ID: All, thanks for the intel.  If I can find 2 more VFX3648s I may suggest they just stick with the old inverters, buy some replacement boards and go with an 8 stack.  If not I'll go with 4 XW+6848's or Radians.  I want to keep it a simple as possible so I'll stick with 1 inverter system feeding 1 MDP.  If it was my place I'd have no problem having multiple panels fed by different inverters/systems.  For this customer, simple and reliable is best. Many thanks, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Ray Sat, 13 Apr 2019 15:10:18 -0700 If there is a way to split your AC outputs to different sub panels,  you might be able to keep the legacy system operational to support one subpanel, and then have a multi Radian system (or other manu) power the other loads.  It can work, and also means that a failure in one inverter will not take the entire system off line.  I have a property with a mixture of Outback inverters and 4 old Trace SW series inverters, and its been online for almost 20 years.  We added the Outbacks when they added a new building, but they all operate off the same Large battery bank. We just changed the original batteries out about a year ago, so its been fairly successful overall.  The shop welder and power tools are isolated from the house, so a power tool start doesn't dim the lights or reset the computer in the house.   Building a single totally integrated system that incorporates the old VFX gear is not feasible anymore though as others have mentioned. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/13/19 1:40 PM, jay wrote: HI Greg, You can still get FX/VFX boards. Outback doesn’t make the FX series,  only the V/FXR models now, they are not compatible Mate 3s works on newer and older units Mate 1 doesn’t work on newer R or Radian versions kris Stone > for parts. Kris will know but last time I checked you can get reconditioned/short warranty boards or new with full warranty for FX/VFX. As to 28kw, I’d go with the 4 Radian vs 8 stack FXR. jay peltz power -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Mon Apr 15 10:17:33 2019 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 14:17:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 3648 tech support and parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6470d9757c9d4de382abf8e72449e80c@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hi Greg Yes boards are available for the VFX3648. I would suggest calling into OutBack Tech support. To get those repaired or replacement PCB’s sent to you. Below is a link to the OutBack Website. Technical support contact information is there. http://www.outbackpower.com/about-outback/contact/contact-us Thanks and Take Care From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Greg Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2019 10:46 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 3648 tech support and parts ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ Friends, I have a customer who's ready to upgrade to a larger system. He has 6 - VFX3648 inverters that are 10 years old. They're only used in the summer months but still going strong. He needs to increase his system size to about 28kW. My understanding is that Outback no longer supports the old VFX inverters. I'm wondering if anyone knows if we can still get parts? I did see an email from Tump that mentioned someone who repairs boards but I was wondering if I could get boards, maybe I could just install them in any outback inverter and make it into a VFX 3648 (if it had the vent /fan mount in it). Next I'm wondering if the MATE ever died if I could either get a replacement MATE or if a MATE 3 would be compatible? Same question for the HUB10? The VFXs are certainly proven technology. Hate to replace them if I don't have to. Thanks again, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Mon Apr 15 10:46:33 2019 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 14:46:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 3648 tech support and parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41c278d749da465c82967d7b94224371@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hi Greg Just as a side note. If you have internet on site it is possible to view multiple Mate3S on a single Optics page. This allows larger systems to be viewed as a single site. There are many sites that up to 10 inverters and up to 10 OutBack charge controllers in a single system each with their own Mate3S. The Mate3S can be viewed separately or aggregated. Attached is white paper explaining the process. Thanks and Take Care. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Greg Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2019 1:51 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 3648 tech support and parts All, thanks for the intel. If I can find 2 more VFX3648s I may suggest they just stick with the old inverters, buy some replacement boards and go with an 8 stack. If not I'll go with 4 XW+6848's or Radians. I want to keep it a simple as possible so I'll stick with 1 inverter system feeding 1 MDP. If it was my place I'd have no problem having multiple panels fed by different inverters/systems. For this customer, simple and reliable is best. Many thanks, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Ray Sat, 13 Apr 2019 15:10:18 -0700 If there is a way to split your AC outputs to different sub panels, you might be able to keep the legacy system operational to support one subpanel, and then have a multi Radian system (or other manu) power the other loads. It can work, and also means that a failure in one inverter will not take the entire system off line. I have a property with a mixture of Outback inverters and 4 old Trace SW series inverters, and its been online for almost 20 years. We added the Outbacks when they added a new building, but they all operate off the same Large battery bank. We just changed the original batteries out about a year ago, so its been fairly successful overall. The shop welder and power tools are isolated from the house, so a power tool start doesn't dim the lights or reset the computer in the house. Building a single totally integrated system that incorporates the old VFX gear is not feasible anymore though as others have mentioned. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/13/19 1:40 PM, jay wrote: HI Greg, You can still get FX/VFX boards. Outback doesn’t make the FX series, only the V/FXR models now, they are not compatible Mate 3s works on newer and older units Mate 1 doesn’t work on newer R or Radian versions kris Stone > for parts. Kris will know but last time I checked you can get reconditioned/short warranty boards or new with full warranty for FX/VFX. As to 28kw, I’d go with the 4 Radian vs 8 stack FXR. jay peltz power -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outback_08082017_OpticsREAggregation_AppNote.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 338785 bytes Desc: Outback_08082017_OpticsREAggregation_AppNote.docx URL: From bruce at mendocinosolar.com Mon Apr 15 11:58:39 2019 From: bruce at mendocinosolar.com (Bruce Erickson) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 08:58:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 3648 tech support and parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just bought a replacement VFX FET board from Photon Electric, at the recommendation of the Outback tech (cheaper than OB he said). http://photonelectricllc.com 574-642-3731. They’re in Indiana. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax bruce at mendocinosolar.com Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994 > On Apr 13, 2019, at 10:45 AM, Greg wrote: > > Friends, > I have a customer who's ready to upgrade to a larger system. He has 6 - VFX3648 inverters that are 10 years old. They're only used in the summer months but still going strong. He needs to increase his system size to about 28kW. > My understanding is that Outback no longer supports the old VFX inverters. I'm wondering if anyone knows if we can still get parts? > > I did see an email from Tump that mentioned someone who repairs boards but I was wondering if I could get boards, maybe I could just install them in any outback inverter and make it into a VFX 3648 (if it had the vent /fan mount in it). > > Next I'm wondering if the MATE ever died if I could either get a replacement MATE or if a MATE 3 would be compatible? Same question for the HUB10? > > The VFXs are certainly proven technology. Hate to replace them if I don't have to. > Thanks again, > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Mon Apr 15 13:51:28 2019 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 10:51:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 3648 tech support and parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00b201d4f3b3$dae34510$90a9cf30$@greenwired.com> I second that from Bruce, I also do a ton of VFX repairs and been getting them at http://photonelectricllc.com they are usually in stock and ship out very fast. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 F: 707-923-2077 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Erickson Sent: Monday, April 15, 2019 8:59 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 3648 tech support and parts I just bought a replacement VFX FET board from Photon Electric, at the recommendation of the Outback tech (cheaper than OB he said). http://photonelectricllc.com 574-642-3731. They’re in Indiana. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax bruce at mendocinosolar.com Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994 On Apr 13, 2019, at 10:45 AM, Greg wrote: Friends, I have a customer who's ready to upgrade to a larger system. He has 6 - VFX3648 inverters that are 10 years old. They're only used in the summer months but still going strong. He needs to increase his system size to about 28kW. My understanding is that Outback no longer supports the old VFX inverters. I'm wondering if anyone knows if we can still get parts? I did see an email from Tump that mentioned someone who repairs boards but I was wondering if I could get boards, maybe I could just install them in any outback inverter and make it into a VFX 3648 (if it had the vent /fan mount in it). Next I'm wondering if the MATE ever died if I could either get a replacement MATE or if a MATE 3 would be compatible? Same question for the HUB10? The VFXs are certainly proven technology. Hate to replace them if I don't have to. Thanks again, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Apr 16 12:37:12 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 09:37:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems In-Reply-To: <413df83f8fe249c5a29beca8de77b75f@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> References: <5cb0d841.1c69fb81.1f600.3478@mx.google.com> <413df83f8fe249c5a29beca8de77b75f@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: It looks to me the Radian is speced at max altitude of 6,561 feet. I have asked Schneider about the XW series and they agree that there is not anything they can find that spells this out. The 2 different Schneider charge controllers are speced at 6,500 feet. So for warranty required situations that is what I can find. More later. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 19:13:37 +0000, Lones Tuss wrote: Hello All Outback's Product Warranty is not based or negated by the altitude of the installation. Altitude ratings ensure full spec operation of the equipment up to the stated elevation . As noted in several posts due to thinner air cooling of equipment can be affected. Additional cooling may be required and or additional products to achieve the necessary load requirements. FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF jerrysgarage01 SENT: Friday, April 12, 2019 11:26 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems Wrenches Here is the math, well the answer at sea level your body has 14.70 PSI exerted on it, at 10,000 feet you only have 10.163 PSI, reduced air pressure, reduced cooling or heating ability adjusted for standard sea level temp or just over 69%. I have done work in Hawaii on the big island up at the summit, it can be warm and very thin air, without air to cool no inverter will perform very well. I have some SMA, FX and Raidians in warm high altitude locations and added extra cooling to compensate for the lack of air. You will hear the cooling fans spinning faster, moving less air at higher altitudes. SMA sunny island does have a 9k plus operating altitude but de-rates at less the 7k. Jerry PV inspector Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Jay Pozner Date: 4/12/19 10:06 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems We do a fair amount of systems at "altitude". Recently we had an issue with a Radian system at about 10,000'. An 8048 inverter screaming (fans running hard) with just 2000 watts of load. I hounded tech support for two years, and even after switching power modules, etc in the end the techs claim a fairly substantial deration (that I can't quote right now) of inverter performance because of cooling issues. We ultimately added another inverter to the system at the end of last summer. I hope this season we will see a better result. It makes sense, given the difference in air density, but I do scratch my head and wonder why we haven't seen such issues with the older FX's, and some of the older legacy systems? I also know that the Midnite classic charge controllers seem to run the fans quite hard as well. I haven't had to replace any of the fans, and the controllers are performing great, but wonder if that will be an issue in the future. It would be great if some manufactures would give us a quality, competitively priced, equipment that is rated for altitude, but I don't think there are that many options out there as of now . Jay Pozner (970) 642-5554 www.nunatakenergy.com [5] NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert.#031310-177 On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:17 AM Steve Higgins wrote: Not to add fuel to the fire... and it's been almost 7 years since I've been with an Inverter manufacturer so here is my .02 cents... So again, I hope I'm not overstepping the boundaries of the Wrenches list. If I remember correctly the main issue with the high altitude installs are some of the components that are used to build the inverter/controllers aren't rated to be used at high altitude, one of the main components that have this issue is the electrolytic capacitors. Of course, the specs vary from component to component. I've seen some rated as low as 8000 ft to some as rated as high as 30,000 ft. It really just depends on the part(s) that the manufacturer used to build the product. As you gain altitude the temperatures and the air pressure decrease, as it was explained to me years ago the problem is with the temperature decrease, this will affect the capacitance of the capacitor. The colder temps will reduce the overall capacitance of the capacitor, just like it will with a battery. These caps are generally used to filter noise from circuits, so when these fail, or the capacitance values fall, you don't get the filtering you need and this induces noise into your circuitry possibly causing overall failure or worse, the dreaded intermittent failure. Generally, if the inverters/controllers are kept on and warm, you won't have too many problems, it's when they are in extremely cold temperatures is when you will start having issues. Hope this helps! Have a good weekend! [7] STEVE HIGGINS ⋅TECHNICAL SERVICES MANAGER T+1.902.597.4020 M+1.206.790.5840 F+1.902.597.8447 E steve at surrette.com [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] ------------------------- CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------- On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 7:47 AM wrote: Folks: The issue here ulltimately isn't whether it works or not, it's if it's WARRANTED. Some purchasers (in this case the USFS) mandate that all equipment be warranted for high altitudes. And that leaves out several major suppliers. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Ray SENT: Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:55 PM TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems We've had some systems at 11,000 ft plus, for almost 20 years. We have mixtures of Outback, Midnite, Blue Sky, and old Trace equipment. Never any issues with electronics related to altitude. Actually the altitude related system issues are generator derating, and array output exceeding STC ratings on really clear cold days due to the thin atmosphere. The third issue would be installers not being able to catch our breath after jogging back to the truck. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/11/19 3:39 PM, Dan Fink wrote: Hi Chris; I am deeply concerned about this as nearly 100% of the systems I install are at 8000 ft (2500m) or higher. I've never had a problem with warranty claims to Outback or Schneider up to this time. If this is a "new thing" I'd really like to know about it, on list or off. The alitude de-rate stuff seems to involve dialectric ratings on the transformer coils, and low air density for cooling. I think that's all in ANSI. Dan Fink Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC IREC Certified Instructor(tm) for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP PV Associate Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com [17] 970-672-4342 On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 1:28 PM wrote: Hi folks: I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems at high altitudes? Have you had any particular issues with them? Last year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters (and also Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft. Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com [19] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [20] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [22] List rules ">_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [25] Change listserver email address ">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [26] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [27] List rules ">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [28] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [29] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [30] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [31] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [32] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [33] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [34] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [35] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [36] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [37] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [38] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [39] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jay at nunatakenergy.com [4] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://www.nunatakenergy.com/ [6] mailto:steve at surrette.com [7] http://www.rollsbattery.com [8] mailto:steve at surrette.com [9] http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery [10] http://www.twitter.com/RollsBattery [11] https://www.youtube.com/user/RollsBattery [12] https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering [13] http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery [14] mailto:chris at oasismontana.com [15] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] mailto:dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com [18] mailto:chris at oasismontana.com [19] http://www.oasismontana.com [20] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [21] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [23] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [24] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [25] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [26] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [27] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [28] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [29] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [30] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [31] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [32] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [33] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [34] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [35] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [36] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [37] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [38] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [39] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Apr 16 15:11:40 2019 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 13:11:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems In-Reply-To: <413df83f8fe249c5a29beca8de77b75f@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> References: <5cb0d841.1c69fb81.1f600.3478@mx.google.com> <413df83f8fe249c5a29beca8de77b75f@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: <011001d4f488$3969ed80$ac3dc880$@OasisMontana.com> Let’s see it in writing, in the manuals included with the components and in the online, downloadable manuals. Clarity is of the essence! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Lones Tuss Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 1:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems Hello All Outback’s Product Warranty is not based or negated by the altitude of the installation. Altitude ratings ensure full spec operation of the equipment up to the stated elevation . As noted in several posts due to thinner air cooling of equipment can be affected. Additional cooling may be required and or additional products to achieve the necessary load requirements. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of jerrysgarage01 Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 11:26 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems Wrenches Here is the math, well the answer at sea level your body has 14.70 PSI exerted on it, at 10,000 feet you only have 10.163 PSI, reduced air pressure, reduced cooling or heating ability adjusted for standard sea level temp or just over 69%. I have done work in Hawaii on the big island up at the summit, it can be warm and very thin air, without air to cool no inverter will perform very well. I have some SMA, FX and Raidians in warm high altitude locations and added extra cooling to compensate for the lack of air. You will hear the cooling fans spinning faster, moving less air at higher altitudes. SMA sunny island does have a 9k plus operating altitude but de-rates at less the 7k. Jerry PV inspector Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Jay Pozner > Date: 4/12/19 10:06 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems We do a fair amount of systems at "altitude". Recently we had an issue with a Radian system at about 10,000'. An 8048 inverter screaming (fans running hard) with just 2000 watts of load. I hounded tech support for two years, and even after switching power modules, etc in the end the techs claim a fairly substantial deration (that I can't quote right now) of inverter performance because of cooling issues. We ultimately added another inverter to the system at the end of last summer. I hope this season we will see a better result. It makes sense, given the difference in air density, but I do scratch my head and wonder why we haven't seen such issues with the older FX's, and some of the older legacy systems? I also know that the Midnite classic charge controllers seem to run the fans quite hard as well. I haven't had to replace any of the fans, and the controllers are performing great, but wonder if that will be an issue in the future. It would be great if some manufactures would give us a quality, competitively priced, equipment that is rated for altitude, but I don't think there are that many options out there as of now . Jay Pozner (970) 642-5554 www.nunatakenergy.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert.#031310-177 On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:17 AM Steve Higgins > wrote: Not to add fuel to the fire... and it's been almost 7 years since I've been with an Inverter manufacturer so here is my .02 cents... So again, I hope I'm not overstepping the boundaries of the Wrenches list. If I remember correctly the main issue with the high altitude installs are some of the components that are used to build the inverter/controllers aren't rated to be used at high altitude, one of the main components that have this issue is the electrolytic capacitors. Of course, the specs vary from component to component. I've seen some rated as low as 8000 ft to some as rated as high as 30,000 ft. It really just depends on the part(s) that the manufacturer used to build the product. As you gain altitude the temperatures and the air pressure decrease, as it was explained to me years ago the problem is with the temperature decrease, this will affect the capacitance of the capacitor. The colder temps will reduce the overall capacitance of the capacitor, just like it will with a battery. These caps are generally used to filter noise from circuits, so when these fail, or the capacitance values fall, you don't get the filtering you need and this induces noise into your circuitry possibly causing overall failure or worse, the dreaded intermittent failure. Generally, if the inverters/controllers are kept on and warm, you won't have too many problems, it's when they are in extremely cold temperatures is when you will start having issues. Hope this helps! Have a good weekend! Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com _____ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. _____ On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 7:47 AM > wrote: Folks: The issue here ulltimately isn’t whether it works or not, it’s if it’s WARRANTED. Some purchasers (in this case the USFS) mandate that all equipment be warranted for high altitudes. And that leaves out several major suppliers. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:55 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems We've had some systems at 11,000 ft plus, for almost 20 years. We have mixtures of Outback, Midnite, Blue Sky, and old Trace equipment. Never any issues with electronics related to altitude. Actually the altitude related system issues are generator derating, and array output exceeding STC ratings on really clear cold days due to the thin atmosphere. The third issue would be installers not being able to catch our breath after jogging back to the truck. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/11/19 3:39 PM, Dan Fink wrote: Hi Chris; I am deeply concerned about this as nearly 100% of the systems I install are at 8000 ft (2500m) or higher. I've never had a problem with warranty claims to Outback or Schneider up to this time. If this is a "new thing" I'd really like to know about it, on list or off. The alitude de-rate stuff seems to involve dialectric ratings on the transformer coils, and low air density for cooling. I think that's all in ANSI. Dan Fink Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP PV Associate Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com 970-672-4342 On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 1:28 PM > wrote: Hi folks: I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems at high altitudes? Have you had any particular issues with them? Last year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters (and also Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft. Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 20:12:40 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 17:12:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems In-Reply-To: <011001d4f488$3969ed80$ac3dc880$@OasisMontana.com> References: <5cb0d841.1c69fb81.1f600.3478@mx.google.com> <413df83f8fe249c5a29beca8de77b75f@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <011001d4f488$3969ed80$ac3dc880$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <8A3C5CA8-BBD9-4B3A-9D6C-DA4E2CBC2ECB@gmail.com> For the Radian Page 59 of the operators manual ( it’s a different set of environmental specifications than the install manual or data sheets) 2000m max altitude. Jay Peltz power. > On Apr 16, 2019, at 12:11 PM, wrote: > > Let’s see it in writing, in the manuals included with the components and in the online, downloadable manuals. Clarity is of the essence! > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Lones Tuss > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 1:14 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems > > Hello All > Outback’s Product Warranty is not based or negated by the altitude of the installation. Altitude ratings ensure full spec operation of the equipment up to the stated elevation . As noted in several posts due to thinner air cooling of equipment can be affected. Additional cooling may be required and or additional products to achieve the necessary load requirements. > > > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jerrysgarage01 > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 11:26 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems > > Wrenches > Here is the math, well the answer at sea level your body has 14.70 PSI exerted on it, at 10,000 feet you only have 10.163 PSI, reduced air pressure, reduced cooling or heating ability adjusted for standard sea level temp or just over 69%. > I have done work in Hawaii on the big island up at the summit, it can be warm and very thin air, without air to cool no inverter will perform very well. I have some SMA, FX and Raidians in warm high altitude locations and added extra cooling to compensate for the lack of air. You will hear the cooling fans spinning faster, moving less air at higher altitudes. > SMA sunny island does have a 9k plus operating altitude but de-rates at less the 7k. > Jerry > PV inspector > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Jay Pozner > Date: 4/12/19 10:06 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems > > > > We do a fair amount of systems at "altitude". Recently we had an issue with a Radian system at about 10,000'. An 8048 inverter screaming (fans running hard) with just 2000 watts of load. I hounded tech support for two years, and even after switching power modules, etc in the end the techs claim a fairly substantial deration (that I can't quote right now) of inverter performance because of cooling issues. We ultimately added another inverter to the system at the end of last summer. I hope this season we will see a better result. It makes sense, given the difference in air density, but I do scratch my head and wonder why we haven't seen such issues with the older FX's, and some of the older legacy systems? > > I also know that the Midnite classic charge controllers seem to run the fans quite hard as well. I haven't had to replace any of the fans, and the controllers are performing great, but wonder if that will be an issue in the future. It would be great if some manufactures would give us a quality, competitively priced, equipment that is rated for altitude, but I don't think there are that many options out there as of now > > > . > > Jay Pozner > (970) 642-5554 > www.nunatakenergy.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installer: > Cert.#031310-177 > > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:17 AM Steve Higgins wrote: > Not to add fuel to the fire... and it's been almost 7 years since I've been with an Inverter manufacturer so here is my .02 cents... So again, I hope I'm not overstepping the boundaries of the Wrenches list. > > If I remember correctly the main issue with the high altitude installs are some of the components that are used to build the inverter/controllers aren't rated to be used at high altitude, one of the main components that have this issue is the electrolytic capacitors. Of course, the specs vary from component to component. I've seen some rated as low as 8000 ft to some as rated as high as 30,000 ft. It really just depends on the part(s) that the manufacturer used to build the product. > > As you gain altitude the temperatures and the air pressure decrease, as it was explained to me years ago the problem is with the temperature decrease, this will affect the capacitance of the capacitor. The colder temps will reduce the overall capacitance of the capacitor, just like it will with a battery. > > These caps are generally used to filter noise from circuits, so when these fail, or the capacitance values fall, you don't get the filtering you need and this induces noise into your circuitry possibly causing overall failure or worse, the dreaded intermittent failure. Generally, if the inverters/controllers are kept on and warm, you won't have too many problems, it's when they are in extremely cold temperatures is when you will start having issues. > > Hope this helps! Have a good weekend! > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 7:47 AM wrote: > Folks: > > The issue here ulltimately isn’t whether it works or not, it’s if it’s WARRANTED. Some purchasers (in this case the USFS) mandate that all equipment be warranted for high altitudes. And that leaves out several major suppliers. > > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:55 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems > > We've had some systems at 11,000 ft plus, for almost 20 years. We have mixtures of Outback, Midnite, Blue Sky, and old Trace equipment. Never any issues with electronics related to altitude. Actually the altitude related system issues are generator derating, and array output exceeding STC ratings on really clear cold days due to the thin atmosphere. The third issue would be installers not being able to catch our breath after jogging back to the truck. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 4/11/19 3:39 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > Hi Chris; I am deeply concerned about this as nearly 100% of the systems I install are at 8000 ft (2500m) or higher. I've never had a problem with warranty claims to Outback or Schneider up to this time. If this is a "new thing" I'd really like to know about it, on list or off. > > The alitude de-rate stuff seems to involve dialectric ratings on the transformer coils, and low air density for cooling. I think that's all in ANSI. > > > Dan Fink > Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP PV Associate > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 1:28 PM wrote: > Hi folks: > > I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems at high altitudes? Have you had any particular issues with them? Last year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters (and also Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft. > > Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude. > > Best, > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Wed Apr 17 12:36:14 2019 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:36:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems In-Reply-To: <8A3C5CA8-BBD9-4B3A-9D6C-DA4E2CBC2ECB@gmail.com> References: <5cb0d841.1c69fb81.1f600.3478@mx.google.com> <413df83f8fe249c5a29beca8de77b75f@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <011001d4f488$3969ed80$ac3dc880$@OasisMontana.com> <8A3C5CA8-BBD9-4B3A-9D6C-DA4E2CBC2ECB@gmail.com> Message-ID: 1. In addition, manufactures provides guidance and altitude considerations tables for those applications that require operation at high altitudes - e.g. "altitudes in excess of 6,562 feet (2000 m)" of electromechanical equipment (contactors and starters) and PV modules 2. For instance, one module manufacture "The installation place should be less than 1,000m (3280ft) above sea level." And higher altitude installations are allowed only if wind pressure is a factor. BTW, manufactures may not specifically follow NEC 90.9(B) and the dual system of units :) All the best, Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 https://www.youracclaim.com/badges/a54a49a9-31cb-4f52-b35f-9d7c90630bb9/public_url Adjunct Professor, Energy California Solar Contractor License #00833782 C46, D56, D31, C-7 Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation Contract Technical Inspector Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG https://www.youracclaim.com/badges/f23ae19b-0370-4ca1-99d1-418403a8faea/linked_in_profile * Member, California Solar & Storage Association * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors #7035507 * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, 5:12 PM Jay wrote: > For the Radian > Page 59 of the operators manual ( it’s a different set of environmental > specifications than the install manual or data sheets) > 2000m max altitude. > > Jay > Peltz power. > > On Apr 16, 2019, at 12:11 PM, chris at oasismontana.com> wrote: > > Let’s see it in writing, in the manuals included with the components and > in the online, downloadable manuals. Clarity is of the essence! > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Lones Tuss > *Sent:* Friday, April 12, 2019 1:14 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems > > > > Hello All > > Outback’s Product Warranty is not based or negated by the altitude of the > installation. Altitude ratings ensure full spec operation of the equipment > up to the stated elevation . As noted in several posts due to thinner air > cooling of equipment can be affected. Additional cooling may be required > and or additional products to achieve the necessary load requirements. > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *jerrysgarage01 > *Sent:* Friday, April 12, 2019 11:26 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems > > > > Wrenches > > Here is the math, well the answer at sea level your body has 14.70 PSI > exerted on it, at 10,000 feet you only have 10.163 PSI, reduced air > pressure, reduced cooling or heating ability adjusted for standard sea > level temp or just over 69%. > > I have done work in Hawaii on the big island up at the summit, it can be > warm and very thin air, without air to cool no inverter will perform very > well. I have some SMA, FX and Raidians in warm high altitude locations and > added extra cooling to compensate for the lack of air. You will hear the > cooling fans spinning faster, moving less air at higher altitudes. > > SMA sunny island does have a 9k plus operating altitude but de-rates at > less the 7k. > > Jerry > > PV inspector > > > > > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Jay Pozner > > Date: 4/12/19 10:06 AM (GMT-08:00) > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems > > > > > > > > We do a fair amount of systems at "altitude". Recently we had an issue > with a Radian system at about 10,000'. An 8048 inverter screaming (fans > running hard) with just 2000 watts of load. I hounded tech support for two > years, and even after switching power modules, etc in the end the techs > claim a fairly substantial deration (that I can't quote right now) of > inverter performance because of cooling issues. We ultimately added > another inverter to the system at the end of last summer. I hope this > season we will see a better result. It makes sense, given the difference > in air density, but I do scratch my head and wonder why we haven't seen > such issues with the older FX's, and some of the older legacy systems? > > > > I also know that the Midnite classic charge controllers seem to run the > fans quite hard as well. I haven't had to replace any of the fans, and the > controllers are performing great, but wonder if that will be an issue in > the future. It would be great if some manufactures would give us a > quality, competitively priced, equipment that is rated for altitude, but I > don't think there are that many options out there as of now > > > > > > . > > > Jay Pozner > (970) 642-5554 > www.nunatakenergy.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installer: > Cert.#031310-177 > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:17 AM Steve Higgins wrote: > > Not to add fuel to the fire... and it's been almost 7 years since I've > been with an Inverter manufacturer so here is my .02 cents... So again, I > hope I'm not overstepping the boundaries of the Wrenches list. > > > > If I remember correctly the main issue with the high altitude installs are > some of the components that are used to build the inverter/controllers > aren't rated to be used at high altitude, one of the main components that > have this issue is the electrolytic capacitors. Of course, the specs > vary from component to component. I've seen some rated as low as 8000 ft > to some as rated as high as 30,000 ft. It really just depends on the > part(s) that the manufacturer used to build the product. > > > > As you gain altitude the temperatures and the air pressure decrease, as it > was explained to me years ago the problem is with the temperature decrease, > this will affect the capacitance of the capacitor. The colder temps will > reduce the overall capacitance of the capacitor, just like it will with a > battery. > > These caps are generally used to filter noise from circuits, so when these > fail, or the capacitance values fall, you don't get the filtering you need > and this induces noise into your circuitry possibly causing overall failure > or worse, the dreaded intermittent failure. Generally, if the > inverters/controllers are kept on and warm, you won't have too many > problems, it's when they are in extremely cold temperatures is when you > will start having issues. > > > > Hope this helps! Have a good weekend! > > > > > > > *Steve Higgins **⋅* *Technical Services Manager* > > *t* +1.902.597.4020 *m* +1.206.790.5840 > > *f* +1.902.597.8447 *e* steve at surrette.com > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 7:47 AM wrote: > > Folks: > > > > The issue here ulltimately isn’t whether it works or not, it’s if it’s > WARRANTED. Some purchasers (in this case the USFS) mandate that all > equipment be warranted for high altitudes. And that leaves out several > major suppliers. > > > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Ray > *Sent:* Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:55 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems > > > > We've had some systems at 11,000 ft plus, for almost 20 years. We have > mixtures of Outback, Midnite, Blue Sky, and old Trace equipment. Never any > issues with electronics related to altitude. Actually the altitude related > system issues are generator derating, and array output exceeding STC > ratings on really clear cold days due to the thin atmosphere. The third > issue would be installers not being able to catch our breath after jogging > back to the truck. > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/11/19 3:39 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Hi Chris; I am deeply concerned about this as nearly 100% of the systems I > install are at 8000 ft (2500m) or higher. I've never had a problem with > warranty claims to Outback or Schneider up to this time. If this is a "new > thing" I'd really like to know about it, on list or off. > > > > The alitude de-rate stuff seems to involve dialectric ratings on the > transformer coils, and low air density for cooling. I think that's all in > ANSI. > > > > > Dan Fink > > Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC > > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > NABCEP PV Associate > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting > > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > > dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com > > 970-672-4342 > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 1:28 PM wrote: > > Hi folks: > > > > I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems > at high altitudes? Have you had any particular issues with them? Last > year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters > (and also Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft. > > > > Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude. > > > > Best, > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 14:34:46 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 13:34:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High altitude off-grid systems In-Reply-To: <01a501d4f084$cf956210$6ec02630$@OasisMontana.com> References: <01a501d4f084$cf956210$6ec02630$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: I was involved with a singular system at about 10,000 feet many years ago. I was told by Chris Frietus of Outback the performance would automatically reduce due to low air pressure reducing the natural convection cooling of the FX inverters and MX 60s. On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 2:28 PM wrote: > Hi folks: > > > > I am curious as to how many of you sell/install battery/inverter systems > at high altitudes? Have you had any particular issues with them? Last > year we discovered (in a mostly costly fashion) that Schneider inverters > (and also Outback) are not warranted above 6500 ft. > > > > Magnum inverters are warranted to 15,000 ft max altitude. > > > > Best, > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 14:40:57 2019 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 18:40:57 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Inverter? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I've touched their equipment. It is still sort of a fledgeling it seems, but they have a great engineering department and they have some pretty cool features from what I have gathered so far. EMP hardening, and testing to back it up (a cheaper version is available without this feature) Compatability with most all battery chemistries Rule21 approved (For CA) For me, the biggest feature was a 9kW inverter that handles 20kW surges 😳 Quite a few other good attributes as well. With the few drawbacks I can see so far being a relatively small connection space for wiring, needs for better monitoring platform. They are awesome on the phone with support, and are constantly evolving the equipment. Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of John Blittersdorf Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 9:47:43 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Inverter? Ray, I just quoted an off-grid project using the Sol-Ark. I use Alt-E for a supplier and they suggest the Midnite solar Mini-DC disconnect for the battery. They have heard good things about it and I am going against my previous requirement using one first or at least seeing one in action before making my customer the guinea pig. I will know in a few weeks how it works out. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service 200 West Road N. Chittenden, VT 802-770-8625 (new web site under construction. - offgridvermont,com SolarFest 2019 July-21 (one day event) www.solarfest.org SolarFest 2020 (25th year) big celebration Mid July at Magic Mountain, Londonderry, VT On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 12:39 PM Ray > wrote: I just had a customer get a quote for a Sol-Ark inverter from an online sales outfit. Does anyone have any experience with them, ever seen one, installed them, etc? From the limited info I can see, they do not appear to have a UL listed battery disconnect system; I'm seeing flying battery cables in the few actual install pics. They also claim to be "EMP hardened". -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Wed Apr 17 14:55:50 2019 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 14:55:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Inverter? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9D2C63C4-6019-4142-BE2E-162C94F2BF9E@solshineenergyalternatives.com> They can also be installed w/o batteries. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Apr 17, 2019, at 2:40 PM, MiJo Nels wrote: > > I've touched their equipment. It is still sort of a fledgeling it seems, but they have a great engineering department and they have some pretty cool features from what I have gathered so far. > > EMP hardening, and testing to back it up (a cheaper version is available without this feature) > > Compatability with most all battery chemistries > > Rule21 approved (For CA) > > For me, the biggest feature was a 9kW inverter that handles 20kW surges 😳 > > Quite a few other good attributes as well. With the few drawbacks I can see so far being a relatively small connection space for wiring, needs for better monitoring platform. They are awesome on the phone with support, and are constantly evolving the equipment. > > > > > Joe Nelson > > Project Manager C-46/C-10 > Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation > > CSL# 868816 > www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com > 530-273-4422 (Office) > > 530-217-8385 (Cell) > >  > >     > > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of John Blittersdorf > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 9:47:43 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Inverter? > > Ray, > I just quoted an off-grid project using the Sol-Ark. I use Alt-E for a supplier and they suggest the Midnite solar Mini-DC disconnect for the battery. They > have heard good things about it and I am going against my previous requirement using one first or at least seeing one in action before making my customer the guinea pig. > I will know in a few weeks how it works out. > > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service > 200 West Road > N. Chittenden, VT > 802-770-8625 > (new web site under construction. - offgridvermont,com > > SolarFest 2019 July-21 (one day event) www.solarfest.org > SolarFest 2020 (25th year) big celebration Mid July at Magic Mountain, Londonderry, VT > >> On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 12:39 PM Ray wrote: >> I just had a customer get a quote for a Sol-Ark inverter from an online >> sales outfit. Does anyone have any experience with them, ever seen one, >> installed them, etc? From the limited info I can see, they do not >> appear to have a UL listed battery disconnect system; I'm seeing flying >> battery cables in the few actual install pics. They also claim to be >> "EMP hardened". >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Wed Apr 17 18:47:57 2019 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:47:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How can I mount one B-frame 3 phase breaker into an indoor box? (no UL needed) Message-ID: Hello, Mechanix~ Square D BDL36100 caught my eye because it's a "unit mount" circuit breaker as in "bolt it down" & it also will mount to a DIN rail. This could serve my AC purpose better than their fusible disconnect H363, but I need to find an indoor type box to mount the breaker--preferably where the toggle pokes out the front & with adequate clearances, etc. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Why, Mick...oh why?" My possible project is ten time zones away from the nearest code inspector & it's off the grid. It's also ten time zones away from replacement fuses for the H363 so that's why I'm asking the group if anyone has ideas for the right box. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Service disconnect" rating is not required since it'll be connected to an engine generator with finite ability to feed a fault. The energy is British style 50 hz 3 phase in a wye pattern, 230 volts from each phase to the neutral & 415 volts phase to phase. UL markings are not required but maybe there's a panel board builder somewhere that already knows how to mount one in a box for me, or maybe I can do it myself if I get a jumping off point. Any inspirations would be heartily welcomed as usual. The Wrench List is the Bomb~ Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Apr 18 13:33:33 2019 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 11:33:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Trace BTS & RC needed Message-ID: <026c01d4f60c$d8f6a430$8ae3ec90$@OasisMontana.com> Hi Folks: Does anyone have a line on a remote option and battery temp sensor for a SW-RC4024 (in a customer’s motor coach)? If so, please contact me off list. Thanks. Sincerely, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Apr 18 17:32:00 2019 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 14:32:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Trace BTS & RC needed In-Reply-To: <026c01d4f60c$d8f6a430$8ae3ec90$@OasisMontana.com> References: <026c01d4f60c$d8f6a430$8ae3ec90$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <3826E48E-F040-4996-B239-A2A93BB37DF4@starlightsolar.com> Hi Chris, SWRC is the remote part name. SW-4024 is the inverter/charge. I believe all the Trace products from that era use the same BTS with RJ11 plug so that should not be a problem. Larry On Apr 18, 2019, at 10:33 AM, chris at OasisMontana.com wrote: Hi Folks: Does anyone have a line on a remote option and battery temp sensor for a SW-RC4024 (in a customer’s motor coach)? If so, please contact me off list. Thanks. Sincerely, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2019-04-18 at 2.30.12 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 225028 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Apr 18 18:47:45 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 15:47:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000 volt In-Reply-To: <3826E48E-F040-4996-B239-A2A93BB37DF4@starlightsolar.com> References: <026c01d4f60c$d8f6a430$8ae3ec90$@OasisMontana.com> <3826E48E-F040-4996-B239-A2A93BB37DF4@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <884d3e8d-3d58-b2d5-e697-0db43bc3d129@psln.com> Wrenches,             I'm tackling a huge residential system that requires back-feeding the grid at 480 volts, delta (no neutral, right?). We're going to GT 30-50 KW.  The SMA SB30000TL-US-10 is one of the few inverters (apparently) that can do this, which I'm planning to use.  The inverter can be fed up to 1,000 vdc,OC. 1,000 volt array is new to me.  I assume they have to accept the high voltage because its a 30K inverter with only 2 MPPT strings.  My question: Other than not getting fried during installation, what's different about wiring the array or anything else on the DC side?  I don't see anything in our current (2014) code cycle on this that's different than 600 volt. Tips, advice?             Any links, past webinars, whatever else also helpful would be welcome. Thanks, Bill On 4/18/2019 2:32 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Hi Chris, > > SWRC is the remote part name. SW-4024 is the inverter/charge. > I believe all the Trace products from that era use the same BTS with > RJ11 plug so that should not be a problem. > > Larry > > > On Apr 18, 2019, at 10:33 AM, chris at OasisMontana.com > wrote: > > Hi Folks: > Does anyone have a line on a remote option and battery temp sensor for > a SW-RC4024 (in a customer’s motor coach)?If so, please contact me off > list.Thanks. > Sincerely, > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 > 406-777-4309 fax > _www.oasismontana.com _ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2019-04-18 at 2.30.12 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 225028 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Apr 18 18:48:23 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 15:48:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000 volt In-Reply-To: <3826E48E-F040-4996-B239-A2A93BB37DF4@starlightsolar.com> References: <026c01d4f60c$d8f6a430$8ae3ec90$@OasisMontana.com> <3826E48E-F040-4996-B239-A2A93BB37DF4@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches,             I'm tackling a huge residential system that requires back-feeding the grid at 480 volts, delta (no neutral, right?). We're going to GT 30-50 KW.  The SMA SB30000TL-US-10 is one of the few inverters (apparently) that can do this, which I'm planning to use.  The inverter can be fed up to 1,000 vdc,OC. 1,000 volt array is new to me.  I assume they have to accept the high voltage because its a 30K inverter with only 2 MPPT strings.  My question: Other than not getting fried during installation, what's different about wiring the array or anything else on the DC side?  I don't see anything in our current (2014) code cycle on this that's different than 600 volt. Tips, advice?             Any links, past webinars, whatever else also helpful would be welcome. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From blake at sunlightandpower.com Thu Apr 18 19:20:10 2019 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 16:20:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000 volt In-Reply-To: <884d3e8d-3d58-b2d5-e697-0db43bc3d129@psln.com> References: <026c01d4f60c$d8f6a430$8ae3ec90$@OasisMontana.com> <3826E48E-F040-4996-B239-A2A93BB37DF4@starlightsolar.com> <884d3e8d-3d58-b2d5-e697-0db43bc3d129@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill, Watch out for the 480 delta with the SMA inverter. Even though the product literature says it works, it doesn't. If there's ever a ground fault (PV system or customer facility wiring) on one of the 480 legs, the other two legs will jump to 480V to ground (with much higher spikes along the way) and blow up the varistors on the inverter output stage which are not rated for this condition. We learned this the hard way with 10 out of 24 inverters suffering complete failures on one project shortly after they were installed. We're talking catastrophic component failure with bits of varistor all over the inverter boards and adjacent components scorched. In the end, we installed a 750kVA 480 wye to 480 delta isolation transformer to provide a reliable ground reference for the inverters. In the process of solving this problem, we learned of several other sites with the same issue... Best, Blake Sun Light & Power On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 3:44 PM frenergy wrote: > Wrenches, > > I'm tackling a huge residential system that requires > back-feeding the grid at 480 volts, delta (no neutral, right?). We're going > to GT 30-50 KW. The SMA SB30000TL-US-10 is one of the few inverters > (apparently) that can do this, which I'm planning to use. The inverter can > be fed up to 1,000 vdc,OC. 1,000 volt array is new to me. I assume they > have to accept the high voltage because its a 30K inverter with only 2 MPPT > strings. My question: Other than not getting fried during installation, > what's different about wiring the array or anything else on the DC side? I > don't see anything in our current (2014) code cycle on this that's > different than 600 volt. Tips, advice? > > Any links, past webinars, whatever else also helpful would be > welcome. > > Thanks, > > Bill > On 4/18/2019 2:32 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > SWRC is the remote part name. SW-4024 is the inverter/charge. > I believe all the Trace products from that era use the same BTS with RJ11 > plug so that should not be a problem. > > Larry > > > On Apr 18, 2019, at 10:33 AM, chris at OasisMontana.com > wrote: > > Hi Folks: > > Does anyone have a line on a remote option and battery temp sensor for a > SW-RC4024 (in a customer’s motor coach)? If so, please contact me off > list. Thanks. > > Sincerely, > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 > 406-777-4309 fax > *www.oasismontana.com * > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_5858696282563267430_m_3869699995280723071_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* 510.845.2997 x128 Follow us on Facebook , LinkedIn or our website . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Apr 19 07:47:09 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 07:47:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC 290 TP Message-ID: Does anyone have 4, REC 290 TP modules? Please contact me off the list if you do. Thank you, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Apr 19 11:49:26 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 15:49:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000 volt In-Reply-To: References: <026c01d4f60c$d8f6a430$8ae3ec90$@OasisMontana.com> <3826E48E-F040-4996-B239-A2A93BB37DF4@starlightsolar.com> <884d3e8d-3d58-b2d5-e697-0db43bc3d129@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill – A couple items: 1. The 30000TL-US (along with all the STP TL-US line) has been discontinued, and I believe this particular model has been completely sold out. Some Distributors may have stock remaining or you may have already obtained the unit. As Blake noted, if you use this model, it is critical to pay attention to service connection requirements. See technical document: https://files.sma.de/dl/7418/STP-US_MV_Trafo-TI-en-13.pdf and particularly the table and notes below on page 3. 2. Not sure where the array is located on this residential property, but single family dwelling roofs are limited to 600V (2014 NEC 690.7(C) or 2017 NEC 690.7). If that is where the array is, perhaps the 33kW CORE1-US-41 inverter would be an option – it is designed to work with high efficiency down to the 350VDC level. The 50kW and 62.5kW units are designed to work best with arrays closer to the 1000VDC limit – ok if the array is a large ground mount or possibly non-dwelling unit roof. This inverter family requires a 277/480 wye service, so a transformer would be required. Transformer requirements for the CORE1 family can also be found in the above linked document. Best- Mike From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Blake Gleason Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2019 5:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 1000 volt Bill, Watch out for the 480 delta with the SMA inverter. Even though the product literature says it works, it doesn't. If there's ever a ground fault (PV system or customer facility wiring) on one of the 480 legs, the other two legs will jump to 480V to ground (with much higher spikes along the way) and blow up the varistors on the inverter output stage which are not rated for this condition. We learned this the hard way with 10 out of 24 inverters suffering complete failures on one project shortly after they were installed. We're talking catastrophic component failure with bits of varistor all over the inverter boards and adjacent components scorched. In the end, we installed a 750kVA 480 wye to 480 delta isolation transformer to provide a reliable ground reference for the inverters. In the process of solving this problem, we learned of several other sites with the same issue... Best, Blake Sun Light & Power On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 3:44 PM frenergy > wrote: Wrenches, I'm tackling a huge residential system that requires back-feeding the grid at 480 volts, delta (no neutral, right?). We're going to GT 30-50 KW. The SMA SB30000TL-US-10 is one of the few inverters (apparently) that can do this, which I'm planning to use. The inverter can be fed up to 1,000 vdc,OC. 1,000 volt array is new to me. I assume they have to accept the high voltage because its a 30K inverter with only 2 MPPT strings. My question: Other than not getting fried during installation, what's different about wiring the array or anything else on the DC side? I don't see anything in our current (2014) code cycle on this that's different than 600 volt. Tips, advice? Any links, past webinars, whatever else also helpful would be welcome. Thanks, Bill On 4/18/2019 2:32 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Hi Chris, SWRC is the remote part name. SW-4024 is the inverter/charge. I believe all the Trace products from that era use the same BTS with RJ11 plug so that should not be a problem. Larry [cid:16a32b673f0cc3c664a1] On Apr 18, 2019, at 10:33 AM, chris at OasisMontana.com wrote: Hi Folks: Does anyone have a line on a remote option and battery temp sensor for a SW-RC4024 (in a customer’s motor coach)? If so, please contact me off list. Thanks. Sincerely, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [Image removed by sender.] Virus-free. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- [Image removed by sender.] Blake Gleason, PE | Employee-Owner | Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence 510.845.2997 x128 Follow us on Facebook, LinkedIn or our website. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 372 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 930 bytes Desc: image004.jpg URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 13:27:06 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 11:27:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, We recently inherited an Outback system that I've been keeping an eye on via Optics. Its a dual stack 3648 VFXR, with about 4kW of PV with a single string of EnergyCell 1100RE battery bank (reported to be ~6 months old) ~.46 kWh at C20. I have been observing how the system functions and how the voltage behaves. We keep getting 2 minute voltage starts on the generator in the middle of the night that don't seem necessary judging from how much energy has been used from the battery bank. I am hesitant to tweak anything because these battery set-points are a bit different than I'm used to. As per Outback: Absorb Voltage is 55.6V for 2 hours Float Voltage is 54.0V I've slowly been dropping the 2 minute start voltage to see if there is a bottom, but I'm hesitant to take it much lower (maybe I should). 2 minute start voltage: 44.8 V. The system easily charges the battery bank to 100% (and easily reached the 2 hr absorb time) every day. The flexnet DC is correctly set up and calibrated. The load on the system is pretty consistent. They use between 400 and 600W throughout the night. An average night, they may use about 6 kWh before the voltage sags below the 2 minute start voltage and it starts the generator. Just curious if our 2 minute voltage needs to be dropped or if these batteries are degraded. What corrective changes can I make to get better performance? I have and will call Outback about this, but I'd like other perspectives as well. Thanks as always for your expertise -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windsine at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 13:45:28 2019 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 12:45:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Using Optics, can you equate the voltage sag/ gen start command with a particular load? Or is the voltage dropping quite evenly over the course of the night? They could actually be degraded if there is no indication of a sudden load/ voltage drop. A simple load test when on site can also help you replicate and/or get a better picture of whats going on. Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 12:27 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > We recently inherited an Outback system that I've been keeping an eye on > via Optics. Its a dual stack 3648 VFXR, with about 4kW of PV with a single > string of EnergyCell 1100RE battery bank (reported to be ~6 months old) > ~.46 kWh at C20. > > I have been observing how the system functions and how the voltage > behaves. We keep getting 2 minute voltage starts on the generator in the > middle of the night that don't seem necessary judging from how much energy > has been used from the battery bank. I am hesitant to tweak anything > because these battery set-points are a bit different than I'm used to. > > As per Outback: > Absorb Voltage is 55.6V for 2 hours > Float Voltage is 54.0V > > I've slowly been dropping the 2 minute start voltage to see if there is a > bottom, but I'm hesitant to take it much lower (maybe I should). > 2 minute start voltage: 44.8 V. > > > The system easily charges the battery bank to 100% (and easily reached the > 2 hr absorb time) every day. The flexnet DC is correctly set up and > calibrated. > > The load on the system is pretty consistent. They use between 400 and > 600W throughout the night. > > An average night, they may use about 6 kWh before the voltage sags below > the 2 minute start voltage and it starts the generator. > > Just curious if our 2 minute voltage needs to be dropped or if these > batteries are degraded. What corrective changes can I make to get better > performance? > > I have and will call Outback about this, but I'd like other perspectives > as well. > > Thanks as always for your expertise > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 13:51:33 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 11:51:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good question. Voltage slowly drops in a fairly linear fashion through out the night. If it is a sudden short duration load, it is short enough that Optics can't pick it up, or it get's averaged out. When I've been on site, I didn't observe any loads that caused concern. On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 11:45 AM Roy Rakobitsch wrote: > Using Optics, can you equate the voltage sag/ gen start command with a > particular load? Or is the voltage dropping quite evenly over the course > of the night? They could actually be degraded if there is no indication of > a sudden load/ voltage drop. A simple load test when on site can also help > you replicate and/or get a better picture of whats going on. > > > Roy Rakobitsch > NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® > Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue > Wind/PV Design Engineer > Windsine LLC > 631-514-4166 > www.windsine.org > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 12:27 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> We recently inherited an Outback system that I've been keeping an eye on >> via Optics. Its a dual stack 3648 VFXR, with about 4kW of PV with a single >> string of EnergyCell 1100RE battery bank (reported to be ~6 months old) >> ~.46 kWh at C20. >> >> I have been observing how the system functions and how the voltage >> behaves. We keep getting 2 minute voltage starts on the generator in the >> middle of the night that don't seem necessary judging from how much energy >> has been used from the battery bank. I am hesitant to tweak anything >> because these battery set-points are a bit different than I'm used to. >> >> As per Outback: >> Absorb Voltage is 55.6V for 2 hours >> Float Voltage is 54.0V >> >> I've slowly been dropping the 2 minute start voltage to see if there is a >> bottom, but I'm hesitant to take it much lower (maybe I should). >> 2 minute start voltage: 44.8 V. >> >> >> The system easily charges the battery bank to 100% (and easily reached >> the 2 hr absorb time) every day. The flexnet DC is correctly set up and >> calibrated. >> >> The load on the system is pretty consistent. They use between 400 and >> 600W throughout the night. >> >> An average night, they may use about 6 kWh before the voltage sags below >> the 2 minute start voltage and it starts the generator. >> >> Just curious if our 2 minute voltage needs to be dropped or if these >> batteries are degraded. What corrective changes can I make to get better >> performance? >> >> I have and will call Outback about this, but I'd like other perspectives >> as well. >> >> Thanks as always for your expertise >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri Apr 19 13:35:41 2019 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 12:35:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <040201d4f6d6$51df2600$f59d7200$@solarcentex.com> Might want to confirm that the FNDC Relay is off and just the AGS relay is set from the Mate menu. Seems I went through this one time before and excellent Outback support quickly surmised the issue for me. Scot Arey Solar CenTex From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 12:27 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery Hello Wrenches, We recently inherited an Outback system that I've been keeping an eye on via Optics. Its a dual stack 3648 VFXR, with about 4kW of PV with a single string of EnergyCell 1100RE battery bank (reported to be ~6 months old) ~.46 kWh at C20. I have been observing how the system functions and how the voltage behaves. We keep getting 2 minute voltage starts on the generator in the middle of the night that don't seem necessary judging from how much energy has been used from the battery bank. I am hesitant to tweak anything because these battery set-points are a bit different than I'm used to. As per Outback: Absorb Voltage is 55.6V for 2 hours Float Voltage is 54.0V I've slowly been dropping the 2 minute start voltage to see if there is a bottom, but I'm hesitant to take it much lower (maybe I should). 2 minute start voltage: 44.8 V. The system easily charges the battery bank to 100% (and easily reached the 2 hr absorb time) every day. The flexnet DC is correctly set up and calibrated. The load on the system is pretty consistent. They use between 400 and 600W throughout the night. An average night, they may use about 6 kWh before the voltage sags below the 2 minute start voltage and it starts the generator. Just curious if our 2 minute voltage needs to be dropped or if these batteries are degraded. What corrective changes can I make to get better performance? I have and will call Outback about this, but I'd like other perspectives as well. Thanks as always for your expertise -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Apr 19 15:09:45 2019 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 12:09:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac, Only removing 6kWh from 46kWh of storage should not be able to produce the voltage sag to trigger AGS. That’s only about 13% at a 100Hr rate. Voltage should be no where near that point. Have you verified actual voltage when the AGS is triggered? Loose wiring or terminal corrosion can cause voltage drop but I would think that an easy find/repair you would have checked. Saying the battery easily charges to 100% worries me as sulfated batteries do that. Healthy LA batteries take many hours to reach full saturation. Has cell voltage been compared for non-uniformity? Has the equalization charge been performed? I am not a fan of the unusual low voltages that Outback prescribes for EnergyCells and seriously wonder how these voltages can properly maintain these cells. CV is below the point where balanced O2 and H2 evolution takes place. But, thats off point. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 19, 2019, at 10:27 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hello Wrenches, We recently inherited an Outback system that I've been keeping an eye on via Optics. Its a dual stack 3648 VFXR, with about 4kW of PV with a single string of EnergyCell 1100RE battery bank (reported to be ~6 months old) ~.46 kWh at C20. I have been observing how the system functions and how the voltage behaves. We keep getting 2 minute voltage starts on the generator in the middle of the night that don't seem necessary judging from how much energy has been used from the battery bank. I am hesitant to tweak anything because these battery set-points are a bit different than I'm used to. As per Outback: Absorb Voltage is 55.6V for 2 hours Float Voltage is 54.0V I've slowly been dropping the 2 minute start voltage to see if there is a bottom, but I'm hesitant to take it much lower (maybe I should). 2 minute start voltage: 44.8 V. The system easily charges the battery bank to 100% (and easily reached the 2 hr absorb time) every day. The flexnet DC is correctly set up and calibrated. The load on the system is pretty consistent. They use between 400 and 600W throughout the night. An average night, they may use about 6 kWh before the voltage sags below the 2 minute start voltage and it starts the generator. Just curious if our 2 minute voltage needs to be dropped or if these batteries are degraded. What corrective changes can I make to get better performance? I have and will call Outback about this, but I'd like other perspectives as well. Thanks as always for your expertise -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 14:45:19 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 11:45:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45983902-6269-4627-B398-4B3CFC270144@gmail.com> Hi Mac I don’t know if this is pertinent, but it could be the SOC /fndc getting out of calibration. I’ve seen this happen if % SOC charge termination is on ( default). Kinda goes into a negative loop. The other thought is that 2 hr absorb is pretty short for that size bank, but maybe that is OB spec? Jay Peltz power. > On Apr 19, 2019, at 10:27 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > We recently inherited an Outback system that I've been keeping an eye on via Optics. Its a dual stack 3648 VFXR, with about 4kW of PV with a single string of EnergyCell 1100RE battery bank (reported to be ~6 months old) ~.46 kWh at C20. > > I have been observing how the system functions and how the voltage behaves. We keep getting 2 minute voltage starts on the generator in the middle of the night that don't seem necessary judging from how much energy has been used from the battery bank. I am hesitant to tweak anything because these battery set-points are a bit different than I'm used to. > > As per Outback: > Absorb Voltage is 55.6V for 2 hours > Float Voltage is 54.0V > > I've slowly been dropping the 2 minute start voltage to see if there is a bottom, but I'm hesitant to take it much lower (maybe I should). > 2 minute start voltage: 44.8 V. > > > The system easily charges the battery bank to 100% (and easily reached the 2 hr absorb time) every day. The flexnet DC is correctly set up and calibrated. > > The load on the system is pretty consistent. They use between 400 and 600W throughout the night. > > An average night, they may use about 6 kWh before the voltage sags below the 2 minute start voltage and it starts the generator. > > Just curious if our 2 minute voltage needs to be dropped or if these batteries are degraded. What corrective changes can I make to get better performance? > > I have and will call Outback about this, but I'd like other perspectives as well. > > Thanks as always for your expertise > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > " -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Apr 19 19:14:19 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 19:14:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004801d4f705$a2748770$e75d9650$@glbcc.com> Hi Larry, I am curious why you would use the 100Hr rate for this approximation and not the 20 or 24Hr one, since that is the period in which Mac is reporting the anomaly. Happy to learn the details! Thanks, Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 3:10 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery Mac, Only removing 6kWh from 46kWh of storage should not be able to produce the voltage sag to trigger AGS. That’s only about 13% at a 100Hr rate. Voltage should be no where near that point. Have you verified actual voltage when the AGS is triggered? Loose wiring or terminal corrosion can cause voltage drop but I would think that an easy find/repair you would have checked. Saying the battery easily charges to 100% worries me as sulfated batteries do that. Healthy LA batteries take many hours to reach full saturation. Has cell voltage been compared for non-uniformity? Has the equalization charge been performed? I am not a fan of the unusual low voltages that Outback prescribes for EnergyCells and seriously wonder how these voltages can properly maintain these cells. CV is below the point where balanced O2 and H2 evolution takes place. But, thats off point. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 19, 2019, at 10:27 AM, Mac Lewis > wrote: Hello Wrenches, We recently inherited an Outback system that I've been keeping an eye on via Optics. Its a dual stack 3648 VFXR, with about 4kW of PV with a single string of EnergyCell 1100RE battery bank (reported to be ~6 months old) ~.46 kWh at C20. I have been observing how the system functions and how the voltage behaves. We keep getting 2 minute voltage starts on the generator in the middle of the night that don't seem necessary judging from how much energy has been used from the battery bank. I am hesitant to tweak anything because these battery set-points are a bit different than I'm used to. As per Outback: Absorb Voltage is 55.6V for 2 hours Float Voltage is 54.0V I've slowly been dropping the 2 minute start voltage to see if there is a bottom, but I'm hesitant to take it much lower (maybe I should). 2 minute start voltage: 44.8 V. The system easily charges the battery bank to 100% (and easily reached the 2 hr absorb time) every day. The flexnet DC is correctly set up and calibrated. The load on the system is pretty consistent. They use between 400 and 600W throughout the night. An average night, they may use about 6 kWh before the voltage sags below the 2 minute start voltage and it starts the generator. Just curious if our 2 minute voltage needs to be dropped or if these batteries are degraded. What corrective changes can I make to get better performance? I have and will call Outback about this, but I'd like other perspectives as well. Thanks as always for your expertise -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 23:20:17 2019 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 23:20:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery In-Reply-To: <004801d4f705$a2748770$e75d9650$@glbcc.com> References: <004801d4f705$a2748770$e75d9650$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Mac, If there is a TriMetric or charge controllers, you can get min/max voltages each day or since last reset. I have found that is very useful info when large, short duration loads hit. ie well pump. I would find on one of my 24 v systems that an 18 or 19 v min would indicate that the well pump went on when the batteries were quite low and pulled the voltage down to low battery cutoff. If the system does not shut down, you might see a voltage lower than the 2 minute setpoint. I think the FlexNet DC also records minimum voltage. And be sure that the gen start trigger is not the flexnet as that is big trouble. John Blittersdorf. On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 8:06 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > Hi Larry, > > > > I am curious why you would use the 100Hr rate for this approximation and > not the 20 or 24Hr one, since that is the period in which Mac is reporting > the anomaly. Happy to learn the details! > > > > Thanks, > > Glenn > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Starlight Solar Power Systems > *Sent:* Friday, April 19, 2019 3:10 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity > Battery > > > > Mac, > > > > Only removing 6kWh from 46kWh of storage should not be able to produce the > voltage sag to trigger AGS. That’s only about 13% at a 100Hr rate. Voltage > should be no where near that point. Have you verified actual voltage when > the AGS is triggered? Loose wiring or terminal corrosion can cause voltage > drop but I would think that an easy find/repair you would have checked. > > > > Saying the battery easily charges to 100% worries me as sulfated batteries > do that. Healthy LA batteries take many hours to reach full saturation. Has > cell voltage been compared for non-uniformity? Has the equalization charge > been performed? > > > > I am not a fan of the unusual low voltages that Outback prescribes for > EnergyCells and seriously wonder how these voltages can properly maintain > these cells. CV is below the point where balanced O2 and H2 evolution takes > place. But, thats off point. > > > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > > On Apr 19, 2019, at 10:27 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > We recently inherited an Outback system that I've been keeping an eye on > via Optics. Its a dual stack 3648 VFXR, with about 4kW of PV with a single > string of EnergyCell 1100RE battery bank (reported to be ~6 months old) > ~.46 kWh at C20. > > > > I have been observing how the system functions and how the voltage > behaves. We keep getting 2 minute voltage starts on the generator in the > middle of the night that don't seem necessary judging from how much energy > has been used from the battery bank. I am hesitant to tweak anything > because these battery set-points are a bit different than I'm used to. > > > > As per Outback: > > Absorb Voltage is 55.6V for 2 hours > > Float Voltage is 54.0V > > > > I've slowly been dropping the 2 minute start voltage to see if there is a > bottom, but I'm hesitant to take it much lower (maybe I should). > > 2 minute start voltage: 44.8 V. > > > > > > The system easily charges the battery bank to 100% (and easily reached the > 2 hr absorb time) every day. The flexnet DC is correctly set up and > calibrated. > > > > The load on the system is pretty consistent. They use between 400 and > 600W throughout the night. > > > > An average night, they may use about 6 kWh before the voltage sags below > the 2 minute start voltage and it starts the generator. > > > > Just curious if our 2 minute voltage needs to be dropped or if these > batteries are degraded. What corrective changes can I make to get better > performance? > > > > I have and will call Outback about this, but I'd like other perspectives > as well. > > > > Thanks as always for your expertise > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 23:49:17 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 22:49:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery In-Reply-To: References: <004801d4f705$a2748770$e75d9650$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Jay has a real strong point. If you are near low voltage low state of charge. Two or 4 hrs from a 4kw array is only 8 to 16 kwh nowhere near 46 kwh. Given the recomended max charge rate is C/5 you would have to be charging for days On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:20 PM John Blittersdorf < john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > Mac, > If there is a TriMetric or charge controllers, you can get min/max > voltages each day or since last reset. I have found that is very useful > info when large, short duration loads hit. ie well pump. I would find on > one of my 24 v systems that an 18 or 19 v min would indicate that the well > pump went on when the batteries were quite low and pulled the voltage down > to low battery cutoff. If the system does not shut down, you might see a > voltage lower than the 2 minute setpoint. I think the FlexNet DC also > records minimum voltage. And be sure that the gen start trigger is not the > flexnet as that is big trouble. > > John Blittersdorf. > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 8:06 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > >> Hi Larry, >> >> >> >> I am curious why you would use the 100Hr rate for this approximation and >> not the 20 or 24Hr one, since that is the period in which Mac is reporting >> the anomaly. Happy to learn the details! >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Glenn >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Starlight Solar Power Systems >> *Sent:* Friday, April 19, 2019 3:10 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity >> Battery >> >> >> >> Mac, >> >> >> >> Only removing 6kWh from 46kWh of storage should not be able to produce >> the voltage sag to trigger AGS. That’s only about 13% at a 100Hr rate. >> Voltage should be no where near that point. Have you verified actual >> voltage when the AGS is triggered? Loose wiring or terminal corrosion can >> cause voltage drop but I would think that an easy find/repair you would >> have checked. >> >> >> >> Saying the battery easily charges to 100% worries me as sulfated >> batteries do that. Healthy LA batteries take many hours to reach full >> saturation. Has cell voltage been compared for non-uniformity? Has the >> equalization charge been performed? >> >> >> >> I am not a fan of the unusual low voltages that Outback prescribes for >> EnergyCells and seriously wonder how these voltages can properly maintain >> these cells. CV is below the point where balanced O2 and H2 evolution takes >> place. But, thats off point. >> >> >> >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 19, 2019, at 10:27 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> >> >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> >> >> We recently inherited an Outback system that I've been keeping an eye on >> via Optics. Its a dual stack 3648 VFXR, with about 4kW of PV with a single >> string of EnergyCell 1100RE battery bank (reported to be ~6 months old) >> ~.46 kWh at C20. >> >> >> >> I have been observing how the system functions and how the voltage >> behaves. We keep getting 2 minute voltage starts on the generator in the >> middle of the night that don't seem necessary judging from how much energy >> has been used from the battery bank. I am hesitant to tweak anything >> because these battery set-points are a bit different than I'm used to. >> >> >> >> As per Outback: >> >> Absorb Voltage is 55.6V for 2 hours >> >> Float Voltage is 54.0V >> >> >> >> I've slowly been dropping the 2 minute start voltage to see if there is a >> bottom, but I'm hesitant to take it much lower (maybe I should). >> >> 2 minute start voltage: 44.8 V. >> >> >> >> >> >> The system easily charges the battery bank to 100% (and easily reached >> the 2 hr absorb time) every day. The flexnet DC is correctly set up and >> calibrated. >> >> >> >> The load on the system is pretty consistent. They use between 400 and >> 600W throughout the night. >> >> >> >> An average night, they may use about 6 kWh before the voltage sags below >> the 2 minute start voltage and it starts the generator. >> >> >> >> Just curious if our 2 minute voltage needs to be dropped or if these >> batteries are degraded. What corrective changes can I make to get better >> performance? >> >> >> >> I have and will call Outback about this, but I'd like other perspectives >> as well. >> >> >> >> Thanks as always for your expertise >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 09:18:45 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 07:18:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery In-Reply-To: References: <004801d4f705$a2748770$e75d9650$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Thanks for all of the comments. My big question is *do these batteries operate at lower voltages than a standard lead battery*. From what I'm gathering from this list, they do not. I am fairly certain its a battery problem, in fact, I think that there may be a bad cell as Alan suggests. As far as Flexnet DC calibration, I do think this system is calibrated. We get to charge voltage and end amps daily and it corresponds to 100% SOC. The solar keeps up with load easily esp with this generator run-time. We are making about 130% of what is being used. The AGS start is done the "standard" way through the Aux relay on the master, not via FNDC relay. I haven't used that relay because calibration issues are so prevalent. I think its back to the basics with cell testing. All of the comments are very much appreciated. On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 9:49 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: > Jay has a real strong point. If you are near low voltage low state of > charge. Two or 4 hrs from a 4kw array is only 8 to 16 kwh nowhere near 46 > kwh. Given the recomended max charge rate is C/5 you would have to be > charging for days > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:20 PM John Blittersdorf < > john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Mac, >> If there is a TriMetric or charge controllers, you can get min/max >> voltages each day or since last reset. I have found that is very useful >> info when large, short duration loads hit. ie well pump. I would find on >> one of my 24 v systems that an 18 or 19 v min would indicate that the well >> pump went on when the batteries were quite low and pulled the voltage down >> to low battery cutoff. If the system does not shut down, you might see a >> voltage lower than the 2 minute setpoint. I think the FlexNet DC also >> records minimum voltage. And be sure that the gen start trigger is not the >> flexnet as that is big trouble. >> >> John Blittersdorf. >> >> On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 8:06 PM Glenn Burt wrote: >> >>> Hi Larry, >>> >>> >>> >>> I am curious why you would use the 100Hr rate for this approximation and >>> not the 20 or 24Hr one, since that is the period in which Mac is reporting >>> the anomaly. Happy to learn the details! >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Glenn >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>> Behalf Of *Starlight Solar Power Systems >>> *Sent:* Friday, April 19, 2019 3:10 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High >>> Capacity Battery >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac, >>> >>> >>> >>> Only removing 6kWh from 46kWh of storage should not be able to produce >>> the voltage sag to trigger AGS. That’s only about 13% at a 100Hr rate. >>> Voltage should be no where near that point. Have you verified actual >>> voltage when the AGS is triggered? Loose wiring or terminal corrosion can >>> cause voltage drop but I would think that an easy find/repair you would >>> have checked. >>> >>> >>> >>> Saying the battery easily charges to 100% worries me as sulfated >>> batteries do that. Healthy LA batteries take many hours to reach full >>> saturation. Has cell voltage been compared for non-uniformity? Has the >>> equalization charge been performed? >>> >>> >>> >>> I am not a fan of the unusual low voltages that Outback prescribes for >>> EnergyCells and seriously wonder how these voltages can properly maintain >>> these cells. CV is below the point where balanced O2 and H2 evolution takes >>> place. But, thats off point. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Larry Crutcher >>> Starlight Solar Power Systems >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Apr 19, 2019, at 10:27 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> >>> >>> We recently inherited an Outback system that I've been keeping an eye on >>> via Optics. Its a dual stack 3648 VFXR, with about 4kW of PV with a single >>> string of EnergyCell 1100RE battery bank (reported to be ~6 months old) >>> ~.46 kWh at C20. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have been observing how the system functions and how the voltage >>> behaves. We keep getting 2 minute voltage starts on the generator in the >>> middle of the night that don't seem necessary judging from how much energy >>> has been used from the battery bank. I am hesitant to tweak anything >>> because these battery set-points are a bit different than I'm used to. >>> >>> >>> >>> As per Outback: >>> >>> Absorb Voltage is 55.6V for 2 hours >>> >>> Float Voltage is 54.0V >>> >>> >>> >>> I've slowly been dropping the 2 minute start voltage to see if there is >>> a bottom, but I'm hesitant to take it much lower (maybe I should). >>> >>> 2 minute start voltage: 44.8 V. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The system easily charges the battery bank to 100% (and easily reached >>> the 2 hr absorb time) every day. The flexnet DC is correctly set up and >>> calibrated. >>> >>> >>> >>> The load on the system is pretty consistent. They use between 400 and >>> 600W throughout the night. >>> >>> >>> >>> An average night, they may use about 6 kWh before the voltage sags below >>> the 2 minute start voltage and it starts the generator. >>> >>> >>> >>> Just curious if our 2 minute voltage needs to be dropped or if these >>> batteries are degraded. What corrective changes can I make to get better >>> performance? >>> >>> >>> >>> I have and will call Outback about this, but I'd like other perspectives >>> as well. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks as always for your expertise >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at goodsun.life Sat Apr 20 12:09:06 2019 From: eric at goodsun.life (Eric Stikes) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 09:09:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV waste problem Message-ID: As many of you may know, the PV industry is beginning to experience a massive solid waste problem. According to my sources, as well as sources such as the California DTSC, the CA PUC, NREL, and the U.S. EIA, the U.S. is and/or will soon be experiencing a waste stream of around 15 million modules going to landfill every year (not including all the BOS). In CA, both the PUC and DTSC held webinar meetings over the past 2 weeks to discuss this impending topic (I have summary notes if anyone wants to know what was discussed and what the outcomes were). As industry professionals, we need to have a candid conversation about sustainability in the renewable energy industry, about the status-quo's linear take-make-use-lose model versus what we need to develop: a circular economy. As such, I am posting on this forum for several reasons: 1. Because this is the only forum of which I know that can reach all of the major solar players in one place. You all are the industry's BEST and are therefore very influential in what you do and what you say, both on and off this forum. 2. If nothing else in this post is on topic, this point certainly is as it brings up a regulatory issue of which many contractors are not fully aware: In California, if a business or individual removes a PV module from service for any reason, that PV module is considered hazardous waste and must be treated as such. (I know this was a topic back in 2002!) Failure to treat used mods as hazardous waste so can incur fines of up to $70k per day per offense. This applies in handling, transport, disposal, AND storage! For those outside of CA, head's up! It may be likely that similar legislation is headed your way. For clarification, if a module is designated to go back into service (which is what we do at Good Sun) the module is not considered waste. If the glass is broken, it is absolutely a waste product. The waste issue is a critical problem that affects us all and it must be addressed. 3. Because all EPC solar professionals that are not engaged in cradle-to-cradle strategy are part of the waste problem. I am not trying to point any fingers here. Certainly I too am part of the problem but I am working to change that (see p.s. note). As industry leaders, we need to develop innovative ways to manage this waste stream, which is why I am attempting to open a dialogue here. We need more than just solar thrift stores. Perhaps forming an unofficial union to force manufacturers to adopt cradle-to-cradle policies (mod take-back)? Until we have a solution, please know that Good Sun is available to accept used mods for reuse (not recycling). We're mostly in California and in the western U.S. but if you look for them, you're likely to find others like us closer to you. Organizations like RecyclePV are focused more on recycling for mods that are not reusable. There are options. So please be responsible and do not throw used mods in the landfill. Thanks for giving me a soapbox for a moment. * Eric A. Stikes *- President & CEO A 501(c)(3) Nonprofit CA Corp. * www.GoodSun.life * +1 (929) 374 - 2009 CA C46 Solar & C10 Electrical Contractor License #968280 NABCEP Solar Installation Professional #PV-041115004511 P.S. I have worked for many different contractors in my 19 year solar career and have been a solar contractor for half of that time. I recently made the decision to give up for-profit contracting work in order to focus on addressing this waste issue by forming a nonprofit that accepts donations of used PV equipment. We repurpose the equipment in two ways: one, we reuse the equipment directly on our low and no-cost PV installs for needy and deserving clients (schools, homeless shelters, orphanages in Africa; you get the idea), and; two, we resell the equipment to raise money for these projects (solar thrift store). There are two ancillary benefits of reselling mods: one, we're selling mods at about a 75% discount from what they cost new (many years ago), making solar affordable for the low and lower middle classes, and; two, we're tracking all sales in an effort to establish a reference data set as a baseline for a reliable secondary PV market. Consider how the used car market impacted the new car market: It did not take sales away from the new market but instead helped the new market to grow much larger and much faster than the new market had grown before the used market was established. There are various reasons why this happens which I will not get into here. Suffice it to say that we hope to help do something similar for the PV industry and vastly increase solar's current ~1.2% U.S. energy generation mix, and hasten the transition to a clean power economy. Yes, we are on an a socio-ecologically-motivated mission. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 20:32:49 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 17:32:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery In-Reply-To: References: <004801d4f705$a2748770$e75d9650$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Hi Mac. 2 questions I have are, what is the soc at 2 min start? And How long does it take to get absorb volts Thx Jay > On Apr 20, 2019, at 6:18 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Thanks for all of the comments. My big question is do these batteries operate at lower voltages than a standard lead battery. From what I'm gathering from this list, they do not. I am fairly certain its a battery problem, in fact, I think that there may be a bad cell as Alan suggests. > > As far as Flexnet DC calibration, I do think this system is calibrated. We get to charge voltage and end amps daily and it corresponds to 100% SOC. The solar keeps up with load easily esp with this generator run-time. We are making about 130% of what is being used. > > The AGS start is done the "standard" way through the Aux relay on the master, not via FNDC relay. I haven't used that relay because calibration issues are so prevalent. > > I think its back to the basics with cell testing. > > All of the comments are very much appreciated. > > > >> On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 9:49 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: >> Jay has a real strong point. If you are near low voltage low state of charge. Two or 4 hrs from a 4kw array is only 8 to 16 kwh nowhere near 46 kwh. Given the recomended max charge rate is C/5 you would have to be charging for days >> >>> On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:20 PM John Blittersdorf wrote: >>> Mac, >>> If there is a TriMetric or charge controllers, you can get min/max voltages each day or since last reset. I have found that is very useful info when large, short duration loads hit. ie well pump. I would find on one of my 24 v systems that an 18 or 19 v min would indicate that the well pump went on when the batteries were quite low and pulled the voltage down to low battery cutoff. If the system does not shut down, you might see a voltage lower than the 2 minute setpoint. I think the FlexNet DC also records minimum voltage. And be sure that the gen start trigger is not the flexnet as that is big trouble. >>> >>> John Blittersdorf. >>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 8:06 PM Glenn Burt wrote: >>>> Hi Larry, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am curious why you would use the 100Hr rate for this approximation and not the 20 or 24Hr one, since that is the period in which Mac is reporting the anomaly. Happy to learn the details! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Glenn >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems >>>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 3:10 PM >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mac, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Only removing 6kWh from 46kWh of storage should not be able to produce the voltage sag to trigger AGS. That’s only about 13% at a 100Hr rate. Voltage should be no where near that point. Have you verified actual voltage when the AGS is triggered? Loose wiring or terminal corrosion can cause voltage drop but I would think that an easy find/repair you would have checked. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Saying the battery easily charges to 100% worries me as sulfated batteries do that. Healthy LA batteries take many hours to reach full saturation. Has cell voltage been compared for non-uniformity? Has the equalization charge been performed? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am not a fan of the unusual low voltages that Outback prescribes for EnergyCells and seriously wonder how these voltages can properly maintain these cells. CV is below the point where balanced O2 and H2 evolution takes place. But, thats off point. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Larry Crutcher >>>> Starlight Solar Power Systems >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2019, at 10:27 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We recently inherited an Outback system that I've been keeping an eye on via Optics. Its a dual stack 3648 VFXR, with about 4kW of PV with a single string of EnergyCell 1100RE battery bank (reported to be ~6 months old) ~.46 kWh at C20. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have been observing how the system functions and how the voltage behaves. We keep getting 2 minute voltage starts on the generator in the middle of the night that don't seem necessary judging from how much energy has been used from the battery bank. I am hesitant to tweak anything because these battery set-points are a bit different than I'm used to. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As per Outback: >>>> >>>> Absorb Voltage is 55.6V for 2 hours >>>> >>>> Float Voltage is 54.0V >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I've slowly been dropping the 2 minute start voltage to see if there is a bottom, but I'm hesitant to take it much lower (maybe I should). >>>> >>>> 2 minute start voltage: 44.8 V. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The system easily charges the battery bank to 100% (and easily reached the 2 hr absorb time) every day. The flexnet DC is correctly set up and calibrated. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The load on the system is pretty consistent. They use between 400 and 600W throughout the night. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> An average night, they may use about 6 kWh before the voltage sags below the 2 minute start voltage and it starts the generator. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Just curious if our 2 minute voltage needs to be dropped or if these batteries are degraded. What corrective changes can I make to get better performance? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have and will call Outback about this, but I'd like other perspectives as well. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks as always for your expertise >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mac Lewis >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Apr 21 10:00:42 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 08:00:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery In-Reply-To: References: <004801d4f705$a2748770$e75d9650$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, The SOC is typically around 75%-85% or so when the 2 minute start triggers. We are hitting absorb voltage around noon typically. Thanks On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 8:47 PM Jay wrote: > Hi Mac. > > 2 questions I have are, what is the soc at 2 min start? > And > How long does it take to get absorb volts > > Thx > Jay > > > > > > On Apr 20, 2019, at 6:18 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Thanks for all of the comments. My big question is *do these batteries > operate at lower voltages than a standard lead battery*. From what I'm > gathering from this list, they do not. I am fairly certain its a battery > problem, in fact, I think that there may be a bad cell as Alan suggests. > > As far as Flexnet DC calibration, I do think this system is calibrated. > We get to charge voltage and end amps daily and it corresponds to 100% > SOC. The solar keeps up with load easily esp with this generator > run-time. We are making about 130% of what is being used. > > The AGS start is done the "standard" way through the Aux relay on the > master, not via FNDC relay. I haven't used that relay because calibration > issues are so prevalent. > > I think its back to the basics with cell testing. > > All of the comments are very much appreciated. > > > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 9:49 PM Darryl Thayer > wrote: > >> Jay has a real strong point. If you are near low voltage low state of >> charge. Two or 4 hrs from a 4kw array is only 8 to 16 kwh nowhere near 46 >> kwh. Given the recomended max charge rate is C/5 you would have to be >> charging for days >> >> On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:20 PM John Blittersdorf < >> john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Mac, >>> If there is a TriMetric or charge controllers, you can get min/max >>> voltages each day or since last reset. I have found that is very useful >>> info when large, short duration loads hit. ie well pump. I would find on >>> one of my 24 v systems that an 18 or 19 v min would indicate that the well >>> pump went on when the batteries were quite low and pulled the voltage down >>> to low battery cutoff. If the system does not shut down, you might see a >>> voltage lower than the 2 minute setpoint. I think the FlexNet DC also >>> records minimum voltage. And be sure that the gen start trigger is not the >>> flexnet as that is big trouble. >>> >>> John Blittersdorf. >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 8:06 PM Glenn Burt wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Larry, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am curious why you would use the 100Hr rate for this approximation >>>> and not the 20 or 24Hr one, since that is the period in which Mac is >>>> reporting the anomaly. Happy to learn the details! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Glenn >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>> Behalf Of *Starlight Solar Power Systems >>>> *Sent:* Friday, April 19, 2019 3:10 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High >>>> Capacity Battery >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mac, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Only removing 6kWh from 46kWh of storage should not be able to produce >>>> the voltage sag to trigger AGS. That’s only about 13% at a 100Hr rate. >>>> Voltage should be no where near that point. Have you verified actual >>>> voltage when the AGS is triggered? Loose wiring or terminal corrosion can >>>> cause voltage drop but I would think that an easy find/repair you would >>>> have checked. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Saying the battery easily charges to 100% worries me as sulfated >>>> batteries do that. Healthy LA batteries take many hours to reach full >>>> saturation. Has cell voltage been compared for non-uniformity? Has the >>>> equalization charge been performed? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am not a fan of the unusual low voltages that Outback prescribes for >>>> EnergyCells and seriously wonder how these voltages can properly maintain >>>> these cells. CV is below the point where balanced O2 and H2 evolution takes >>>> place. But, thats off point. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Larry Crutcher >>>> Starlight Solar Power Systems >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2019, at 10:27 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We recently inherited an Outback system that I've been keeping an eye >>>> on via Optics. Its a dual stack 3648 VFXR, with about 4kW of PV with a >>>> single string of EnergyCell 1100RE battery bank (reported to be ~6 months >>>> old) ~.46 kWh at C20. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have been observing how the system functions and how the voltage >>>> behaves. We keep getting 2 minute voltage starts on the generator in the >>>> middle of the night that don't seem necessary judging from how much energy >>>> has been used from the battery bank. I am hesitant to tweak anything >>>> because these battery set-points are a bit different than I'm used to. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As per Outback: >>>> >>>> Absorb Voltage is 55.6V for 2 hours >>>> >>>> Float Voltage is 54.0V >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I've slowly been dropping the 2 minute start voltage to see if there is >>>> a bottom, but I'm hesitant to take it much lower (maybe I should). >>>> >>>> 2 minute start voltage: 44.8 V. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The system easily charges the battery bank to 100% (and easily reached >>>> the 2 hr absorb time) every day. The flexnet DC is correctly set up and >>>> calibrated. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The load on the system is pretty consistent. They use between 400 and >>>> 600W throughout the night. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> An average night, they may use about 6 kWh before the voltage sags >>>> below the 2 minute start voltage and it starts the generator. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Just curious if our 2 minute voltage needs to be dropped or if these >>>> batteries are degraded. What corrective changes can I make to get better >>>> performance? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have and will call Outback about this, but I'd like other >>>> perspectives as well. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks as always for your expertise >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mac Lewis >>>> >>>> >>>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Apr 22 11:40:51 2019 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 08:40:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery In-Reply-To: <004801d4f705$a2748770$e75d9650$@glbcc.com> References: <004801d4f705$a2748770$e75d9650$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <0E21AAA6-C969-446D-9267-656C69AAC98C@starlightsolar.com> Hi Glenn, Simply because he specified the energy removed during the time period was about 6kWh. The 100Hr rate capacity for this cell is 1150Ah or about 55kWh of storage in the bank. 55kWh/100 = about 550W which are the claimed overnight loads. Using the 20Hr rate (960AH) would indicate higher loads or a greater percentage of capacity loss. I was just trying to give a more accurate consumption total to compare voltage. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 19, 2019, at 4:14 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: Hi Larry, I am curious why you would use the 100Hr rate for this approximation and not the 20 or 24Hr one, since that is the period in which Mac is reporting the anomaly. Happy to learn the details! Thanks, Glenn From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 3:10 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery Mac, Only removing 6kWh from 46kWh of storage should not be able to produce the voltage sag to trigger AGS. That’s only about 13% at a 100Hr rate. Voltage should be no where near that point. Have you verified actual voltage when the AGS is triggered? Loose wiring or terminal corrosion can cause voltage drop but I would think that an easy find/repair you would have checked. Saying the battery easily charges to 100% worries me as sulfated batteries do that. Healthy LA batteries take many hours to reach full saturation. Has cell voltage been compared for non-uniformity? Has the equalization charge been performed? I am not a fan of the unusual low voltages that Outback prescribes for EnergyCells and seriously wonder how these voltages can properly maintain these cells. CV is below the point where balanced O2 and H2 evolution takes place. But, thats off point. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 19, 2019, at 10:27 AM, Mac Lewis > wrote: Hello Wrenches, We recently inherited an Outback system that I've been keeping an eye on via Optics. Its a dual stack 3648 VFXR, with about 4kW of PV with a single string of EnergyCell 1100RE battery bank (reported to be ~6 months old) ~.46 kWh at C20. I have been observing how the system functions and how the voltage behaves. We keep getting 2 minute voltage starts on the generator in the middle of the night that don't seem necessary judging from how much energy has been used from the battery bank. I am hesitant to tweak anything because these battery set-points are a bit different than I'm used to. As per Outback: Absorb Voltage is 55.6V for 2 hours Float Voltage is 54.0V I've slowly been dropping the 2 minute start voltage to see if there is a bottom, but I'm hesitant to take it much lower (maybe I should). 2 minute start voltage: 44.8 V. The system easily charges the battery bank to 100% (and easily reached the 2 hr absorb time) every day. The flexnet DC is correctly set up and calibrated. The load on the system is pretty consistent. They use between 400 and 600W throughout the night. An average night, they may use about 6 kWh before the voltage sags below the 2 minute start voltage and it starts the generator. Just curious if our 2 minute voltage needs to be dropped or if these batteries are degraded. What corrective changes can I make to get better performance? I have and will call Outback about this, but I'd like other perspectives as well. Thanks as always for your expertise -- Mac Lewis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Apr 22 12:02:33 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 09:02:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery In-Reply-To: <0E21AAA6-C969-446D-9267-656C69AAC98C@starlightsolar.com> References: <004801d4f705$a2748770$e75d9650$@glbcc.com> <0E21AAA6-C969-446D-9267-656C69AAC98C@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <53ec4c0b2b0d24b5aedc2c10295e2ccc@127.0.0.1> This case also sounds like the classic loss of battery capacity as Larry hinted. The genset is running too often. Time for a load test. --Dave On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 08:40:51 -0700, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Hi Glenn, Simply because he specified the energy removed during the time period was about 6kWh. The 100Hr rate capacity for this cell is 1150Ah or about 55kWh of storage in the bank. 55kWh/100 = about 550W which are the claimed overnight loads. Using the 20Hr rate (960AH) would indicate higher loads or a greater percentage of capacity loss. I was just trying to give a more accurate consumption total to compare voltage. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 19, 2019, at 4:14 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: Hi Larry, I am curious why you would use the 100Hr rate for this approximation and not the 20 or 24Hr one, since that is the period in which Mac is reporting the anomaly. Happy to learn the details! Thanks, Glenn FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Starlight Solar Power Systems SENT: Friday, April 19, 2019 3:10 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery Mac, Only removing 6kWh from 46kWh of storage should not be able to produce the voltage sag to trigger AGS. That's only about 13% at a 100Hr rate. Voltage should be no where near that point. Have you verified actual voltage when the AGS is triggered? Loose wiring or terminal corrosion can cause voltage drop but I would think that an easy find/repair you would have checked. Saying the battery easily charges to 100% worries me as sulfated batteries do that. Healthy LA batteries take many hours to reach full saturation. Has cell voltage been compared for non-uniformity? Has the equalization charge been performed? I am not a fan of the unusual low voltages that Outback prescribes for EnergyCells and seriously wonder how these voltages can properly maintain these cells. CV is below the point where balanced O2 and H2 evolution takes place. But, thats off point. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 19, 2019, at 10:27 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hello Wrenches, We recently inherited an Outback system that I've been keeping an eye on via Optics. Its a dual stack 3648 VFXR, with about 4kW of PV with a single string of EnergyCell 1100RE battery bank (reported to be ~6 months old) ~.46 kWh at C20. I have been observing how the system functions and how the voltage behaves. We keep getting 2 minute voltage starts on the generator in the middle of the night that don't seem necessary judging from how much energy has been used from the battery bank. I am hesitant to tweak anything because these battery set-points are a bit different than I'm used to. As per Outback: Absorb Voltage is 55.6V for 2 hours Float Voltage is 54.0V I've slowly been dropping the 2 minute start voltage to see if there is a bottom, but I'm hesitant to take it much lower (maybe I should). 2 minute start voltage: 44.8 V. The system easily charges the battery bank to 100% (and easily reached the 2 hr absorb time) every day. The flexnet DC is correctly set up and calibrated. The load on the system is pretty consistent. They use between 400 and 600W throughout the night. An average night, they may use about 6 kWh before the voltage sags below the 2 minute start voltage and it starts the generator. Just curious if our 2 minute voltage needs to be dropped or if these batteries are degraded. What corrective changes can I make to get better performance? I have and will call Outback about this, but I'd like other perspectives as well. Thanks as always for your expertise -- Mac Lewis -- Links: ------ [1] mailto:glenn.burt at glbcc.com [2] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [3] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] mailto:maclewis1 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Apr 22 20:54:28 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 17:54:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid Message-ID: Friends: I am working on an AC coupled SMA system in an off-grid setting. We have an SB4000-12 that was disconnected for a number of years and we reconnected it. The inverter is stuck in the waiting mode and will not generate power. The Sunny Islands and Sunny Boys are connected via an RS485 communication system. I suspect there is a programming step I have not yet accomplished. I recall some years ago I programmed the other Sunny Boys for off-grid operation. I can’t find anything in any of the manuals about how to check the programming. I also suspect SAM tech support talked me through this and the information may not be published. Does this ring a bell with any of you? Any advice? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Tue Apr 23 08:16:31 2019 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 08:16:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load break DC breaker for combiner Message-ID: I’m looking for a load break rated 15amp 600v DC breaker din rail mount. Any suggestions? -- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 10:17:08 2019 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 07:17:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load break DC breaker for combiner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gary, MidNite Solar sells their MNEPV16-600-RT breaker. It is 16A and is 2" wide and DIN rail mount. Brad AEE Solar On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:16 AM gary easton wrote: > I’m looking for a load break rated 15amp 600v DC breaker din rail mount. > Any suggestions? > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Apr 23 09:15:47 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 09:15:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load break DC breaker for combiner Message-ID: http://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=336&productCatName=Breakers&productCat_ID=16&sortOrder=21&act=pSent from my Verizon LG Smartphone------ Original message------From: gary eastonDate: Tue, Apr 23, 2019 8:16 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Load break DC breaker for combinerI’m looking for a load break rated 15amp 600v DC breaker din rail mount.  Any suggestions?-- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Apr 23 09:23:36 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 09:23:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load break DC breaker for combiner Message-ID: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Carling-Technologies/CX2-B0-14-615-22C-06C?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvNllHT6Fj2frBgPAYA3uAUmRvib7gdFxE%3DSent from my Verizon LG Smartphone------ Original message------From: gary eastonDate: Tue, Apr 23, 2019 8:16 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Load break DC breaker for combinerI’m looking for a load break rated 15amp 600v DC breaker din rail mount.  Any suggestions?-- Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Tue Apr 23 11:47:30 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 15:47:30 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William – Waiting mode means the DC voltage is below the inverter start. For SB 4000-12, that would be 285 VDC (and will work to 250VDC once that is hit). If you knock on the inverter lid, the display will cycle and you will see the DC voltage displayed. If the yellow LED is not on, this should not be an AC side issue. I do not think the “Backup Mode” parameter would be the cause, but if the voltage check shows well above PVstart, it would be worth a call to service. If the inverter was left in on grid mode, then it will work when the SI is creating a micro-grid with frequency within UL1741 limits. If the system is off-grid, I would think the SB would have been set to off-grid mode rather than enabling Backup Mode to “on all” that allows switching from on-grid to off-grid parameter sets by RS485 command. Best- Mike From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 6:54 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid Friends: I am working on an AC coupled SMA system in an off-grid setting. We have an SB4000-12 that was disconnected for a number of years and we reconnected it. The inverter is stuck in the waiting mode and will not generate power. The Sunny Islands and Sunny Boys are connected via an RS485 communication system. I suspect there is a programming step I have not yet accomplished. I recall some years ago I programmed the other Sunny Boys for off-grid operation. I can’t find anything in any of the manuals about how to check the programming. I also suspect SAM tech support talked me through this and the information may not be published. Does this ring a bell with any of you? Any advice? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Tue Apr 23 19:21:48 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 23:21:48 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW AUX plug Message-ID: Hello all, I am working on an orphaned Schneider XW +6848 system, end it looks like the original installer threw away the green AUX plug, which you use for the remote inverter on/off switch, the AUX output, etc. I’m hoping that somebody here might know where I might be able to buy a replacement, or if there is a part number/name that I could search for. I started by calling Schneider tech-support, and I got a very nice guy on the phone who told me that he would find the information and email it to me. That was on Thursday, and I have not heard back from them, so I figured I’d reach out to you all. Thank you so much! Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801)631-5584 From william at millersolar.com Tue Apr 23 14:40:19 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 11:40:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike: Thanks for the reply. Good information. The AC system is 208. The data sheet indicates that for 208 the PV startup is 220. Today we have 260 VDC. That should be enough!? I checked EMT he AC frequency in case it was on shift mode. It is right at 60.00. Still in waiting mode. I had always thought “waiting” was for grid reconnect timeout... William > On Apr 23, 2019, at 8:47 AM, Harry Mahon wrote: > > William – > Waiting mode means the DC voltage is below the inverter start. For SB 4000-12, that would be 285 VDC (and will work to 250VDC once that is hit). > > If you knock on the inverter lid, the display will cycle and you will see the DC voltage displayed. > > If the yellow LED is not on, this should not be an AC side issue. > > I do not think the “Backup Mode” parameter would be the cause, but if the voltage check shows well above PVstart, it would be worth a call to service. If the inverter was left in on grid mode, then it will work when the SI is creating a micro-grid with frequency within UL1741 limits. If the system is off-grid, I would think the SB would have been set to off-grid mode rather than enabling Backup Mode to “on all” that allows switching from on-grid to off-grid parameter sets by RS485 command. > > Best- > Mike > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller > Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 6:54 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid > > Friends: > > I am working on an AC coupled SMA system in an off-grid setting. We have an SB4000-12 that was disconnected for a number of years and we reconnected it. The inverter is stuck in the waiting mode and will not generate power. The Sunny Islands and Sunny Boys are connected via an RS485 communication system. > > I suspect there is a programming step I have not yet accomplished. I recall some years ago I programmed the other Sunny Boys for off-grid operation. I can’t find anything in any of the manuals about how to check the programming. I also suspect SAM tech support talked me through this and the information may not be published. > > Does this ring a bell with any of you? Any advice? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, > really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Tue Apr 23 15:21:29 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 19:21:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William - yes, waiting is usually waiting for grid to come back within spec or for DC voltage to get to start. 260 should be plenty. 208V with neutral should be fine without adjusting the jumpers. Have you measured the AC voltage at the inverter terminals? May want to contact service for this one. 1-877-697-6283. Best regards – Mike From: William Miller Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:40 PM To: Harry Mahon Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid Mike: Thanks for the reply. Good information. The AC system is 208. The data sheet indicates that for 208 the PV startup is 220. Today we have 260 VDC. That should be enough!? I checked EMT he AC frequency in case it was on shift mode. It is right at 60.00. Still in waiting mode. I had always thought “waiting” was for grid reconnect timeout... William On Apr 23, 2019, at 8:47 AM, Harry Mahon > wrote: William – Waiting mode means the DC voltage is below the inverter start. For SB 4000-12, that would be 285 VDC (and will work to 250VDC once that is hit). If you knock on the inverter lid, the display will cycle and you will see the DC voltage displayed. If the yellow LED is not on, this should not be an AC side issue. I do not think the “Backup Mode” parameter would be the cause, but if the voltage check shows well above PVstart, it would be worth a call to service. If the inverter was left in on grid mode, then it will work when the SI is creating a micro-grid with frequency within UL1741 limits. If the system is off-grid, I would think the SB would have been set to off-grid mode rather than enabling Backup Mode to “on all” that allows switching from on-grid to off-grid parameter sets by RS485 command. Best- Mike From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 6:54 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid Friends: I am working on an AC coupled SMA system in an off-grid setting. We have an SB4000-12 that was disconnected for a number of years and we reconnected it. The inverter is stuck in the waiting mode and will not generate power. The Sunny Islands and Sunny Boys are connected via an RS485 communication system. I suspect there is a programming step I have not yet accomplished. I recall some years ago I programmed the other Sunny Boys for off-grid operation. I can’t find anything in any of the manuals about how to check the programming. I also suspect SAM tech support talked me through this and the information may not be published. Does this ring a bell with any of you? Any advice? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Apr 23 15:33:20 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 12:33:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike: Ac input is 207 Vac at 60.00. Display says unit configured for 208. I have been talking to tech support for days. They say my voltage is low. That disagrees with the manual and the name plate sticker. A bit frustrating... I bid the job and I can’t bill until this is sorted. Ah, the joys of being one’s own boss. Thanks for your help. William > On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Harry Mahon wrote: > > William - yes, waiting is usually waiting for grid to come back within spec or for DC voltage to get to start. 260 should be plenty. 208V with neutral should be fine without adjusting the jumpers. Have you measured the AC voltage at the inverter terminals? > > May want to contact service for this one. 1-877-697-6283. > > Best regards – > Mike > > From: William Miller > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:40 PM > To: Harry Mahon > Cc: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid > > Mike: > > Thanks for the reply. Good information. > > The AC system is 208. The data sheet indicates that for 208 the PV startup is 220. Today we have 260 VDC. That should be enough!? > > I checked EMT he AC frequency in case it was on shift mode. It is right at 60.00. > > Still in waiting mode. I had always thought “waiting” was for grid reconnect timeout... > > William > > On Apr 23, 2019, at 8:47 AM, Harry Mahon wrote: > > William – > Waiting mode means the DC voltage is below the inverter start. For SB 4000-12, that would be 285 VDC (and will work to 250VDC once that is hit). > > If you knock on the inverter lid, the display will cycle and you will see the DC voltage displayed. > > If the yellow LED is not on, this should not be an AC side issue. > > I do not think the “Backup Mode” parameter would be the cause, but if the voltage check shows well above PVstart, it would be worth a call to service. If the inverter was left in on grid mode, then it will work when the SI is creating a micro-grid with frequency within UL1741 limits. If the system is off-grid, I would think the SB would have been set to off-grid mode rather than enabling Backup Mode to “on all” that allows switching from on-grid to off-grid parameter sets by RS485 command. > > Best- > Mike > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller > Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 6:54 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid > > Friends: > > I am working on an AC coupled SMA system in an off-grid setting. We have an SB4000-12 that was disconnected for a number of years and we reconnected it. The inverter is stuck in the waiting mode and will not generate power. The Sunny Islands and Sunny Boys are connected via an RS485 communication system. > > I suspect there is a programming step I have not yet accomplished. I recall some years ago I programmed the other Sunny Boys for off-grid operation. I can’t find anything in any of the manuals about how to check the programming. I also suspect SAM tech support talked me through this and the information may not be published. > > Does this ring a bell with any of you? Any advice? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, > really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Apr 23 20:46:50 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 20:46:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW AUX plug Message-ID: <655gf0tajbvian9be8be9fqi.1556066703152@email.lge.com> I think they are fairly common these days. I think the ones we used were made by Phoenix Contact, but I think a place like Newark electronics would be a source.Good luckSent from my Verizon LG Smartphone------ Original message------From: Kienan MaxfieldDate: Tue, Apr 23, 2019 7:21 PMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Schneider XW AUX plugHello all, I am working on an orphaned Schneider XW +6848 system, end it looks like the original installer threw away the green AUX plug, which you use for the remote inverter on/off switch, the AUX output, etc. I’m hoping that somebody here might know where I might be able to buy a replacement, or if there is a part number/name that I could search for. I started by calling Schneider tech-support, and I got a very nice guy on the phone who told me that he would find the information and email it to me. That was on Thursday, and I have not heard back from them, so I figured I’d reach out to you all. Thank you so much! Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801)631-5584 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 11:18:55 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 09:18:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity Battery In-Reply-To: <53ec4c0b2b0d24b5aedc2c10295e2ccc@127.0.0.1> References: <004801d4f705$a2748770$e75d9650$@glbcc.com> <0E21AAA6-C969-446D-9267-656C69AAC98C@starlightsolar.com> <53ec4c0b2b0d24b5aedc2c10295e2ccc@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have a good way to get expert tech support for these batteries? Calling general Outback tech support has been terrible, they really have no idea about these batteries. Long wait times to talk to people who aren't ready to answer questions about this product. I keep getting conflicting information. Thanks On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:07 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > This case also sounds like the classic loss of battery capacity as Larry > hinted. The genset is running too often. Time for a load test. --Dave > > > > On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 08:40:51 -0700, Starlight Solar Power Systems < > larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > > Hi Glenn, > > Simply because he specified the energy removed during the time period was > about 6kWh. The 100Hr rate capacity for this cell is 1150Ah or about 55kWh > of storage in the bank. 55kWh/100 = about 550W which are the claimed > overnight loads. Using the 20Hr rate (960AH) would indicate higher loads or > a greater percentage of capacity loss. I was just trying to give a more > accurate consumption total to compare voltage. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Apr 19, 2019, at 4:14 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Hi Larry, > > I am curious why you would use the 100Hr rate for this approximation and > not the 20 or 24Hr one, since that is the period in which Mac is reporting > the anomaly. Happy to learn the details! > > Thanks, > Glenn > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Starlight Solar Power Systems > *Sent:* Friday, April 19, 2019 3:10 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Operating Voltages Outback RE High Capacity > Battery > > Mac, > > Only removing 6kWh from 46kWh of storage should not be able to produce the > voltage sag to trigger AGS. That's only about 13% at a 100Hr rate. Voltage > should be no where near that point. Have you verified actual voltage when > the AGS is triggered? Loose wiring or terminal corrosion can cause voltage > drop but I would think that an easy find/repair you would have checked. > > Saying the battery easily charges to 100% worries me as sulfated batteries > do that. Healthy LA batteries take many hours to reach full saturation. Has > cell voltage been compared for non-uniformity? Has the equalization charge > been performed? > > I am not a fan of the unusual low voltages that Outback prescribes for > EnergyCells and seriously wonder how these voltages can properly maintain > these cells. CV is below the point where balanced O2 and H2 evolution takes > place. But, thats off point. > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Apr 19, 2019, at 10:27 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > We recently inherited an Outback system that I've been keeping an eye on > via Optics. Its a dual stack 3648 VFXR, with about 4kW of PV with a single > string of EnergyCell 1100RE battery bank (reported to be ~6 months old) > ~.46 kWh at C20. > > I have been observing how the system functions and how the voltage > behaves. We keep getting 2 minute voltage starts on the generator in the > middle of the night that don't seem necessary judging from how much energy > has been used from the battery bank. I am hesitant to tweak anything > because these battery set-points are a bit different than I'm used to. > > As per Outback: > Absorb Voltage is 55.6V for 2 hours > Float Voltage is 54.0V > > I've slowly been dropping the 2 minute start voltage to see if there is a > bottom, but I'm hesitant to take it much lower (maybe I should). > 2 minute start voltage: 44.8 V. > > > The system easily charges the battery bank to 100% (and easily reached the > 2 hr absorb time) every day. The flexnet DC is correctly set up and > calibrated. > > The load on the system is pretty consistent. They use between 400 and > 600W throughout the night. > > An average night, they may use about 6 kWh before the voltage sags below > the 2 minute start voltage and it starts the generator. > > Just curious if our 2 minute voltage needs to be dropped or if these > batteries are degraded. What corrective changes can I make to get better > performance? > > I have and will call Outback about this, but I'd like other perspectives > as well. > > Thanks as always for your expertise > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louis at solarcowboyz.com Wed Apr 24 10:46:59 2019 From: louis at solarcowboyz.com (louis at solarcowboyz.com) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 07:46:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid Message-ID: <20190424074659.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.2b7069d073.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Apr 24 12:48:45 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 09:48:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid In-Reply-To: <20190424074659.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.2b7069d073.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> References: <20190424074659.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.2b7069d073.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <4E4AF464-3514-4E75-9465-B03DFBA04E76@millersolar.com> Louis: Thanks for the message. I’m a bit embarrassed that I misunderstood the start voltage significance. I modified the string wiring and system is operating. Thanks again! William Miller > On Apr 24, 2019, at 7:46 AM, wrote: > > William, > > The start voltage is 285v from what I see covered on the specifications in manual. > Data sheets are not specifications, I have seen many a error on these over the years. > > This voltage is way low regardless if the start voltage was 220v. > By the time the PV voltage gets dragged down when finding the VMPP it is going to be down near the low end of the range anyway. > > I always like to see the VMPP up near the top of the VMPP point(but not to high!). > This means less current, which means less heat, which means longer life. > > Looks like the is either a PV problem or a bad design in the first place. > > Louis Segarra > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid > From: William Miller > Date: Tue, April 23, 2019 11:40 am > To: Harry Mahon > Cc: RE-wrenches > > Mike: > > Thanks for the reply. Good information. > > The AC system is 208. The data sheet indicates that for 208 the PV startup is 220. Today we have 260 VDC. That should be enough!? > > I checked EMT he AC frequency in case it was on shift mode. It is right at 60.00. > > Still in waiting mode. I had always thought “waiting” was for grid reconnect timeout... > > William > >> On Apr 23, 2019, at 8:47 AM, Harry Mahon wrote: >> >> William – >> Waiting mode means the DC voltage is below the inverter start. For SB 4000-12, that would be 285 VDC (and will work to 250VDC once that is hit). >> >> If you knock on the inverter lid, the display will cycle and you will see the DC voltage displayed. >> >> If the yellow LED is not on, this should not be an AC side issue. >> >> I do not think the “Backup Mode” parameter would be the cause, but if the voltage check shows well above PVstart, it would be worth a call to service. If the inverter was left in on grid mode, then it will work when the SI is creating a micro-grid with frequency within UL1741 limits. If the system is off-grid, I would think the SB would have been set to off-grid mode rather than enabling Backup Mode to “on all” that allows switching from on-grid to off-grid parameter sets by RS485 command. >> >> Best- >> Mike >> >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller >> Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 6:54 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid >> >> Friends: >> >> I am working on an AC coupled SMA system in an off-grid setting. We have an SB4000-12 that was disconnected for a number of years and we reconnected it. The inverter is stuck in the waiting mode and will not generate power. The Sunny Islands and Sunny Boys are connected via an RS485 communication system. >> >> I suspect there is a programming step I have not yet accomplished. I recall some years ago I programmed the other Sunny Boys for off-grid operation. I can’t find anything in any of the manuals about how to check the programming. I also suspect SAM tech support talked me through this and the information may not be published. >> >> Does this ring a bell with any of you? Any advice? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> William Miller >> >> Miller Solar >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, >> really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 19:03:08 2019 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 18:03:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have three SB 700 for my solar class. When we get the “waiting” on our LCD we are always well above the required VOC. A call to SMA years ago lead me to finding that there is a “wattage In”rating I need to meet to get the inverters to grid tie. I never saw this in the manual. These inverters have a narrow V and I window so finding modules for the lab was tricky. I had used 75V/1.4A modules for the stings to meet the 115-150Vdc range and a 2A max input rating. Connecting two of these in series never would take the inverter out of “waiting” mode unless it was blue bird skies and we tilted to array right at the sun. I finally put three or four in series on a (500w/m squared) cloudy day and the inverter immediately tied to the grid. Going back to 2 in series left it in waiting. That’s when I called and asked about a min current input rating and was told about the not listed wattage (I was told power) In rating. Not sure if this applies to you but it was a great lesson for the students. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 23, 2019, at 2:21 PM, Harry Mahon wrote: > > William - yes, waiting is usually waiting for grid to come back within spec or for DC voltage to get to start. 260 should be plenty. 208V with neutral should be fine without adjusting the jumpers. Have you measured the AC voltage at the inverter terminals? > > May want to contact service for this one. 1-877-697-6283. > > Best regards – > Mike > > From: William Miller > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:40 PM > To: Harry Mahon > Cc: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid > > Mike: > > Thanks for the reply. Good information. > > The AC system is 208. The data sheet indicates that for 208 the PV startup is 220. Today we have 260 VDC. That should be enough!? > > I checked EMT he AC frequency in case it was on shift mode. It is right at 60.00. > > Still in waiting mode. I had always thought “waiting” was for grid reconnect timeout... > > William > > On Apr 23, 2019, at 8:47 AM, Harry Mahon wrote: > > William – > Waiting mode means the DC voltage is below the inverter start. For SB 4000-12, that would be 285 VDC (and will work to 250VDC once that is hit). > > If you knock on the inverter lid, the display will cycle and you will see the DC voltage displayed. > > If the yellow LED is not on, this should not be an AC side issue. > > I do not think the “Backup Mode” parameter would be the cause, but if the voltage check shows well above PVstart, it would be worth a call to service. If the inverter was left in on grid mode, then it will work when the SI is creating a micro-grid with frequency within UL1741 limits. If the system is off-grid, I would think the SB would have been set to off-grid mode rather than enabling Backup Mode to “on all” that allows switching from on-grid to off-grid parameter sets by RS485 command. > > Best- > Mike > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller > Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 6:54 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid > > Friends: > > I am working on an AC coupled SMA system in an off-grid setting. We have an SB4000-12 that was disconnected for a number of years and we reconnected it. The inverter is stuck in the waiting mode and will not generate power. The Sunny Islands and Sunny Boys are connected via an RS485 communication system. > > I suspect there is a programming step I have not yet accomplished. I recall some years ago I programmed the other Sunny Boys for off-grid operation. I can’t find anything in any of the manuals about how to check the programming. I also suspect SAM tech support talked me through this and the information may not be published. > > Does this ring a bell with any of you? Any advice? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > Quote of the day: “If there is a job you hate, get really, > really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less.“ W. Miller > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 12:21:42 2019 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 12:21:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Well Pump Sizing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have an off-grid customer who is having problems with his 10 year+ old 1/2hp well pump. It is running and running at 900watts constant and hardly building pressure and even caused the 250amp breaker on his single VFX3524 inverter to trip. He is running the pump at 240V off a x240 transformer and thinking he might need to replace the pump and might want to go with a larger 3/4hp pump for better performance and more future capacity. Does anyone have experience running 3/4hp pumps on this setup? The pump is approx. 200’ down in the well. -- * Amos Post* Integrity Energy O: 802.763.7023 C: 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com -- * Amos Post* Integrity Energy W: 802.763.7023 C: 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Thu Apr 25 12:50:12 2019 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 09:50:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Well Pump Sizing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <062b01d4fb86$f3969af0$dac3d0d0$@greenwired.com> Hey Amos. It could be a multitude of things depending on what type of pump motor it uses. Even if you get it fixed it’s still got 10yr parts in it elsewhere that will have to probably be replaced soon too. Have you looked into the Grundfos SQF series? They are really nice, run off AC or DC but are kind of limited to their flow rate at the range I think the best you could get would be 12 gpm. That way he could run the pump during the day off solar direct and then switch it over to AC for evening pumping and cut down usage on his house system. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Amos Post Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 9:22 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Well Pump Sizing I have an off-grid customer who is having problems with his 10 year+ old 1/2hp well pump. It is running and running at 900watts constant and hardly building pressure and even caused the 250amp breaker on his single VFX3524 inverter to trip. He is running the pump at 240V off a x240 transformer and thinking he might need to replace the pump and might want to go with a larger 3/4hp pump for better performance and more future capacity. Does anyone have experience running 3/4hp pumps on this setup? The pump is approx. 200’ down in the well. -- Amos Post Integrity Energy O: 802.763.7023 C: 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com -- Amos Post Integrity Energy W: 802.763.7023 C: 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From louis at solarcowboyz.com Thu Apr 25 11:04:36 2019 From: louis at solarcowboyz.com (louis at solarcowboyz.com) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 08:04:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Micro-grid Message-ID: <20190425080436.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.92cd5811a0.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Apr 25 12:32:52 2019 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 11:32:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tell me what I'm missing on 690.12 B(2)? Where does it say "module-level???" Message-ID: <02fe01d4fb84$88950770$99bf1650$@solarcentex.com> The wording in 690.12 B(2) , effective after Jan 1, 2019, says "The PV System shall comply with one of the following:" In none of the three subsequent paragraphs does it ref to "module level shutdown." Paragraph 2 says gets inside the array voltage under 80 volts within 30 seconds so I understand how that does not make a great article headline.hence "module-level." But I had a distributor that says they do not stock Fronius any longer because it does not have a NEC 2017 solution. But doesn't paragraph 1 ("comply with one of the following") and its informational note provide a path to compliance as long as the string-level RSD device is mounted within 1-foot of the array boundary? How did "module-level" shutdown get taken as gospel truth?? I'm thinking a Fronius Primo with its RSD Quattro device mounted on an array rail meets current 2017 code. Howard "Scot" Arey 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 48535 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 10:15:25 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 07:15:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Micro inverter OCP Message-ID: <177FC24C-8694-462B-8B8C-510F56C38581@gmail.com> Hi all, For micro inverters, what OCP is available for ground fault ( or arc fault) for roof top mounted on a living structure? Thx Jay From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Apr 25 13:21:01 2019 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 11:21:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Micro inverter OCP In-Reply-To: <177FC24C-8694-462B-8B8C-510F56C38581@gmail.com> References: <177FC24C-8694-462B-8B8C-510F56C38581@gmail.com> Message-ID: Is this in regards to 2014 NEC 705.12(D)(6)? This requirement was deleted in 2017. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 11:10 AM Jay wrote: > Hi all, > > For micro inverters, what OCP is available for ground fault ( or arc > fault) > for roof top mounted on a living structure? > > Thx > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Thu Apr 25 13:30:41 2019 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 17:30:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Micro inverter OCP In-Reply-To: <177FC24C-8694-462B-8B8C-510F56C38581@gmail.com> References: <177FC24C-8694-462B-8B8C-510F56C38581@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, ArcFault protection is only required for systems operating over 80V, so isn't required for most microinverters. Enphase microinverters include ground-fault protection integral to the microinverters and the GFI can be reset if it trips. Enphase provides instructions on reseting a tripped GFI in our Envoy Installation Manuals, including in this doucment: https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/downloads/support/IQ-Envoy-Manual-EN-US.pdf#page=40 Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager, Envoy and Accessories (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 7:15 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Micro inverter OCP EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. Hi all, For micro inverters, what OCP is available for ground fault ( or arc fault) for roof top mounted on a living structure? Thx Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 25 13:14:30 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 10:14:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Well Pump Sizing In-Reply-To: <062b01d4fb86$f3969af0$dac3d0d0$@greenwired.com> References: <062b01d4fb86$f3969af0$dac3d0d0$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <935a4e1723b31bce3c73a85996e21ef3@127.0.0.1> Time for a radian and lose the x240. Modernize the system to split phase and test for pressure leaks, pressure tank, pressure switch. My experience with the x240 got much better when Schneider, Outback went split phase. They are fine for solar people but one more headache to an offgrid homeowner. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 09:50:12 -0700, "Andrew" wrote: Hey Amos. It could be a multitude of things depending on what type of pump motor it uses. Even if you get it fixed it's still got 10yr parts in it elsewhere that will have to probably be replaced soon too. Have you looked into the Grundfos SQF series? They are really nice, run off AC or DC but are kind of limited to their flow rate at the range I think the best you could get would be 12 gpm. That way he could run the pump during the day off solar direct and then switch it over to AC for evening pumping and cut down usage on his house system. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] ON BEHALF OF Amos Post SENT: Thursday, April 25, 2019 9:22 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Well Pump Sizing I have an off-grid customer who is having problems with his 10 year+ old 1/2hp well pump. It is running and running at 900watts constant and hardly building pressure and even caused the 250amp breaker on his single VFX3524 inverter to trip. He is running the pump at 240V off a x240 transformer and thinking he might need to replace the pump and might want to go with a larger 3/4hp pump for better performance and more future capacity. Does anyone have experience running 3/4hp pumps on this setup? The pump is approx. 200' down in the well. -- AMOS POST Integrity Energy O: 802.763.7023 C: 802.291.2188 [3] -- AMOS POST Integrity Energy W: 802.763.7023 C: 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com [4] [5] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://www.facebook.com/integrityenergyllp?ref=br_tf [4] http://ienergyVT.com [5] https://www.facebook.com/integrityenergyllp?ref=br_tf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Apr 25 14:37:00 2019 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 11:37:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV waste problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Wrenches. If you have any questions or concerns, please contact me off-list. This very interesting and important topic can be taken up at length on the RE-Markets email listserver. I'm assuming Eric will be starting the conversation soon, so if you're not already on that listserver, you can sign up here: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-markets-re-wrenches.org Eric Stikes wrote at 09:09 AM 4/20/2019: >As many of you may know, the PV industry is beginning to experience a massive solid waste problem. According to my sources, as well as sources such as the California DTSC, the CA PUC, NREL, and the U.S. EIA, the U.S. is and/or will soon be experiencing a waste stream of around 15 million modules going to landfill every year (not including all the BOS). In CA, both the PUC and DTSC held webinar meetings over the past 2 weeks to discuss this impending topic (I have summary notes if anyone wants to know what was discussed and what the outcomes were). > >As industry professionals, we need to have a candid conversation about sustainability in the renewable energy industry, about the status-quo's linear take-make-use-lose model versus what we need to develop: a circular economy. From will at solarenergy.org Thu Apr 25 14:45:14 2019 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:45:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Micro inverter OCP In-Reply-To: <177FC24C-8694-462B-8B8C-510F56C38581@gmail.com> References: <177FC24C-8694-462B-8B8C-510F56C38581@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, You're triggering some serious PTSD with this question. When 2017 NEC came out Mass was the first state to adopt it and the inspectors started requiring arc fault breakers on the micro inverter branch circuits, we were using Enphase. At the time they didn't work, weren't really listed for backfeed, and caused all kinds of problems. We ended up appealing to the state board and lost only for the state board to turn around a few months later and repeal that requirement. We ended up with thousands of dollars in arc fault breakers sitting in boxes in the shop. I'm not sure if they've worked out the technical issues but if it's anything like it was in the past it's going to be a nightmare of false arc faults. Thanks, Will On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 1:10 PM Jay wrote: > Hi all, > > For micro inverters, what OCP is available for ground fault ( or arc > fault) > for roof top mounted on a living structure? > > Thx > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Apr 25 15:10:54 2019 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 13:10:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Well Pump Sizing In-Reply-To: <935a4e1723b31bce3c73a85996e21ef3@127.0.0.1> References: <062b01d4fb86$f3969af0$dac3d0d0$@greenwired.com> <935a4e1723b31bce3c73a85996e21ef3@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <4b9acaeb-5009-84e2-f8a1-794e3cbb9c9e@sindelarsolar.com> Amos, I have done this and it works. The VFX3524 will run a 3/4 HP (and a 1 HP) AC well pump just fine through a PSX-240. I have this setup in my own home now, running on a 120V Magnum 4024AE. I would suggest a soft-start AC pump with a conventional pressure switch, not the constant-pressure approach. Add a 120VAC-coil single-pole relay on the 120V side, with the pressure switch wired to the relay's coil circuit and the relay controlling the 120VAC between the inverter output and the PSX-240 input, to eliminate the 12(?)W tare of the PSX-240. It'll work fine and is completely reliable if professionally installed. We don't need no stinking badges - er, Radians! Allan at Sindelar Solar On 4/25/2019 11:14 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Time for a radian and lose the x240. Modernize the system to split > phase and test for pressure leaks, pressure tank, pressure switch. > > My experience with the x240 got much better when Schneider, Outback > went split phase. They are fine for solar people but one more headache > to an offgrid homeowner.  Good Luck! > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 09:50:12 -0700, "Andrew" > wrote: > >> Hey Amos. >> >> It could be a multitude of things depending on what type of pump >> motor it uses. Even if you get it fixed it's still got 10yr parts in >> it elsewhere that will have to probably be replaced soon too. Have >> you looked into the Grundfos SQF series? They are really nice, run >> off AC or DC but are kind of limited to their flow rate at the range >> I think the best you could get would be 12 gpm. That way he could run >> the pump during the day off solar direct and then switch it over to >> AC for evening pumping and cut down usage on his house system. >> >> Andrew Perkins >> >> Greenwired >> >> P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 >> >> 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd >> >> Redway, CA 95560 >> >> www.greenwired.com >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> *On Behalf Of *Amos Post >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 25, 2019 9:22 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Well Pump Sizing >> >> I have an off-grid customer who is having problems with his 10 year+ >> old 1/2hp well pump. It is running and running at 900watts constant >> and hardly building pressure and even caused the 250amp breaker on >> his single VFX3524 inverter to trip.  He is running the pump at 240V >> off a x240 transformer and thinking he might need to replace the pump >> and might want to go with a larger 3/4hp pump for better performance >> and more future capacity.  Does anyone have experience running 3/4hp >> pumps on this setup?  The pump is approx. 200' down in the well. >> >> *Amos Post* >> >>  Integrity Energy >> >>  O: 802.763.7023 >> >>  C: 802.291.2188 >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 10:00:51 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 09:00:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Well Pump Sizing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a customer with the exact setup 1/2 hp. been running for 17 years no problems. I wired it so the pressure switch turns on power to the PS240 I also have a customer with a 1.5 hp pump on a Magnum 4024 been running about 6 years. The red flag I see is the current draw is too high for a 1/2 hp pump. moments ago I looked on egauge for this customer and the 1/2 hp pump draws about 600 to 800 watts, I do not know why it varies, it has just over 1kw on start surge. I suspect it is the water level in the well. the well is 200 feet deep but I do not know the drawdown level. If your customer has a well that is going dry or the water level has dropped or the pump has an insufficent head. Try to get an estimate on the water use. I use an egauge and measure the run time to fill the diaphragm tank and measure the fill volume(on off of presure switch) If the total volume is low, the head of the existing pump might be low. I had a customer with excessive runtime where the pipe from the submersible to the surface was leaking, So that means the pump should be pulled. On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 11:21 AM Amos Post wrote: > > > I have an off-grid customer who is having problems with his 10 year+ old > 1/2hp well pump. It is running and running at 900watts constant and hardly > building pressure and even caused the 250amp breaker on his single VFX3524 > inverter to trip. He is running the pump at 240V off a x240 transformer > and thinking he might need to replace the pump and might want to go with a > larger 3/4hp pump for better performance and more future capacity. Does > anyone have experience running 3/4hp pumps on this setup? The pump is > approx. 200’ down in the well. > > -- > > * Amos Post* > Integrity Energy > O: 802.763.7023 > C: 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > > > > -- > > * Amos Post* > Integrity Energy > W: 802.763.7023 > C: 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 19:11:26 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 16:11:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Micro inverter OCP In-Reply-To: References: <177FC24C-8694-462B-8B8C-510F56C38581@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C35972-5DED-44EE-B61F-5C6EA0F9DEB5@gmail.com> Hi Will, Sorry, didn’t mean too. Reading between the lines, once inspected the faulty breaker was somehow replaced with a normal one. And so to my question, at this point they are no known arc/ground fault backfeed approved rated breakers? Jay > On Apr 25, 2019, at 11:45 AM, Will White wrote: > > Jay, > > You're triggering some serious PTSD with this question. When 2017 NEC came out Mass was the first state to adopt it and the inspectors started requiring arc fault breakers on the micro inverter branch circuits, we were using Enphase. At the time they didn't work, weren't really listed for backfeed, and caused all kinds of problems. We ended up appealing to the state board and lost only for the state board to turn around a few months later and repeal that requirement. We ended up with thousands of dollars in arc fault breakers sitting in boxes in the shop. > > I'm not sure if they've worked out the technical issues but if it's anything like it was in the past it's going to be a nightmare of false arc faults. > > Thanks, > Will > >> On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 1:10 PM Jay wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> For micro inverters, what OCP is available for ground fault ( or arc fault) >> for roof top mounted on a living structure? >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > Will White > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy. > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Fri Apr 26 11:20:18 2019 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 11:20:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Micro inverter OCP In-Reply-To: <50C35972-5DED-44EE-B61F-5C6EA0F9DEB5@gmail.com> References: <177FC24C-8694-462B-8B8C-510F56C38581@gmail.com> <50C35972-5DED-44EE-B61F-5C6EA0F9DEB5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Exactly, when we had problems most inspectors would let us swap out for standard breakers. I'd check with the micro manufacturer and see if they have one that's compatible but as Brian said they took that code requirement out of the 2017 NEC so I must have had my dates mixed up and it was in the 2014 code version. Thanks, Will On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 10:12 AM Jay wrote: > Hi Will, > > Sorry, didn’t mean too. > > Reading between the lines, once inspected the faulty breaker was somehow > replaced with a normal one. > > And so to my question, at this point they are no known arc/ground fault > backfeed approved rated breakers? > > Jay > > > > On Apr 25, 2019, at 11:45 AM, Will White wrote: > > Jay, > > You're triggering some serious PTSD with this question. When 2017 NEC came > out Mass was the first state to adopt it and the inspectors started > requiring arc fault breakers on the micro inverter branch circuits, we were > using Enphase. At the time they didn't work, weren't really listed for > backfeed, and caused all kinds of problems. We ended up appealing to the > state board and lost only for the state board to turn around a few months > later and repeal that requirement. We ended up with thousands of dollars in > arc fault breakers sitting in boxes in the shop. > > I'm not sure if they've worked out the technical issues but if it's > anything like it was in the past it's going to be a nightmare of false arc > faults. > > Thanks, > Will > > On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 1:10 PM Jay wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> For micro inverters, what OCP is available for ground fault ( or arc >> fault) >> for roof top mounted on a living structure? >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power > the world with renewable energy.* > > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Sat Apr 27 14:07:29 2019 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 12:07:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tell me what I'm missing on 690.12 B(2)? Where does it say "module-level???" Message-ID: Scot Arey wrote: > "How did “module-level” shutdown get taken as gospel truth?? I’m thinking a Fronius Primo with its RSD Quattro device mounted on an > array rail meets current 2017 code." Mick here: The issue is that if a Fronius type PV "string" is interrupted at the edge of the array, one still has open circuit voltage on the string that's much higher than the 80 volt limit. The MLPE "module level power electronics"--whether they're microinverters or DC optimizers--snub any sum of AC or DC voltage below 80 when they're in shutdown mode. Both of those solutions also optimize to the level of individual PV modules & they provide granular metering of the energy deliveries--but I assume those benefits are of little value to the project you're planning, Scot. I don't know the availability status for Midnite's SOB "Shut Off Box", but this segments the PV string during shutdown & it gets the voltage below 80 without the expense of optimization & granular monitoring. There are still "electronics" behind each PV module because these shutoffs are triggered by radio but it's not MLPE in the usual sense & the cost is relatively low since all they're doing is opening contactors. I hope this reply is helpful. The Wrench List is The Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Apr 27 14:16:11 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 12:16:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tell me what I'm missing on 690.12 B(2)? Where does it say "module-level???" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7431d299-a41c-b351-96c0-a4365c6b8740@solarray.com> The Midnite SOB system is up and running.  We have one installed that has been working trouble free for about 8 months. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/27/19 12:07 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: > Scot Arey wrote: > > > "How did “module-level” shutdown get taken as gospel truth?? > > I’m thinking a Fronius Primo with its RSD Quattro device > mounted on an array rail meets current 2017 code." > > > Mick here: The issue is that if a Fronius type PV "string" is > interrupted at the edge of the array, one still has open circuit > voltage on the string that's much higher than the 80 volt limit. The > MLPE "module level power electronics"--whether they're microinverters > or DC optimizers--snub any sum of AC or DC voltage below 80 when > they're in shutdown mode. Both of those solutions also optimize to the > level of individual PV modules & they provide granular metering of the > energy deliveries--but I assume those benefits are of little value to > the project you're planning, Scot. > > > I don't know the availability status for Midnite's SOB "Shut Off Box", > but this segments the PV string during shutdown & it gets the voltage > below 80 without the expense of optimization & granular monitoring. > There are still "electronics" behind each PV module because these > shutoffs are triggered by radio but it's not MLPE in the usual sense & > the cost is relatively low since all they're doing is opening > contactors. I hope this reply is helpful. > > > The Wrench List is The Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Sun Apr 28 22:18:37 2019 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 19:18:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1 kW 120 Vac grid tied inverter Message-ID: <0MLQEG-1hKNe333Ks-000YNc@mrelay.perfora.net> I replaced a number of AES (?) 120 Vac 1 kW grid tied inverter back when I was just starting out (2000) There was one poor design element with the DC fuse holders that I discovered and was able to work around, but I usually advised my clients to swap these inverters out for the SMA SWR 2500 and add some PV panels into the mix. I kept a couple of the AES 1000s for a while and then finally gave them to our local scrap metal purveyor. I have a 900 W off-grid system that I used to haul around to “green events”. Blue Sky CC, Xantrex 1000 W inverter, 24 V AGM battery set. But as time goes by I spend very little time demoing this big an off-grid system, and I wish I had an AES-1000 to covert my seldom-used off-grid system into a revenue producing grid tied system. Did anyone else keep a working AES-1000 (or low power grid tied inverter) that works and would be willing to part with it for a modest sum. Is there a solid ~1,000 W 120 Vac grid tied inverter out there on the market? My system is comprised of five (5) Tata 180s. Vmpp=35.8 V. - Peter Peter T. Parrish SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Mon Apr 29 09:18:30 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 09:18:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Well Pump Sizing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0976B90C-0581-493A-B085-F9AE86D24976@swnl.net> My first recommendation is to confirm that the static level is OK during pumping, the second is; if he has used this scenario in the past and it has worked then Id pull the pump and check that the screen on the pump is not clogged or silt has not covered the pump + check for leaks in the input side of the Pres tank to pump. You can raise the pump higher if it has silted in. I have used soft start 3/4 pumps but I have larger 24V BBs > On Apr 25, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Amos Post wrote: > > > > I have an off-grid customer who is having problems with his 10 year+ old 1/2hp well pump. It is running and running at 900watts constant and hardly building pressure and even caused the 250amp breaker on his single VFX3524 inverter to trip. He is running the pump at 240V off a x240 transformer and thinking he might need to replace the pump and might want to go with a larger 3/4hp pump for better performance and more future capacity. Does anyone have experience running 3/4hp pumps on this setup? The pump is approx. 200’ down in the well. > > -- > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > O: 802.763.7023 > C: 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > > -- > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W: 802.763.7023 > C: 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 10:05:02 2019 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:05:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1 kW 120 Vac grid tied inverter In-Reply-To: <0MLQEG-1hKNe333Ks-000YNc@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0MLQEG-1hKNe333Ks-000YNc@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: You could also look for an SMA SB700. Not very efficient and the metering is pretty far off, but likely much better than an old AES. Brad On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 8:49 PM Peter Parrish wrote: > I replaced a number of AES (?) 120 Vac 1 kW grid tied inverter back when I > was just starting out (2000) There was one poor design element with the DC > fuse holders that I discovered and was able to work around, but I usually > advised my clients to swap these inverters out for the SMA SWR 2500 and add > some PV panels into the mix. I kept a couple of the AES 1000s for a while > and then finally gave them to our local scrap metal purveyor. > > > > I have a 900 W off-grid system that I used to haul around to “green > events”. Blue Sky CC, Xantrex 1000 W inverter, 24 V AGM battery set. But as > time goes by I spend very little time demoing this big an off-grid system, > and I wish I had an AES-1000 to covert my seldom-used off-grid system into > a revenue producing grid tied system. > > > > Did anyone else keep a working AES-1000 (or low power grid tied inverter) > that works and would be willing to part with it for a modest sum. Is there > a solid ~1,000 W 120 Vac grid tied inverter out there on the market? > > > > My system is comprised of five (5) Tata 180s. Vmpp=35.8 V. > > > > - Peter > > > > Peter T. Parrish > SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > peter.parrish at solargnosis.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 10:12:18 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 08:12:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1 kW 120 Vac grid tied inverter In-Reply-To: <0MLQEG-1hKNe333Ks-000YNc@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0MLQEG-1hKNe333Ks-000YNc@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <7E002CEC-DF73-4B95-8999-AC3A5D77D573@gmail.com> Hi peter. Check amazon or eBay etc. lots of cheap Chinese small inverters. Jay > On Apr 28, 2019, at 8:18 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: > > I replaced a number of AES (?) 120 Vac 1 kW grid tied inverter back when I was just starting out (2000) There was one poor design element with the DC fuse holders that I discovered and was able to work around, but I usually advised my clients to swap these inverters out for the SMA SWR 2500 and add some PV panels into the mix. I kept a couple of the AES 1000s for a while and then finally gave them to our local scrap metal purveyor. > > I have a 900 W off-grid system that I used to haul around to “green events”. Blue Sky CC, Xantrex 1000 W inverter, 24 V AGM battery set. But as time goes by I spend very little time demoing this big an off-grid system, and I wish I had an AES-1000 to covert my seldom-used off-grid system into a revenue producing grid tied system. > > Did anyone else keep a working AES-1000 (or low power grid tied inverter) that works and would be willing to part with it for a modest sum. Is there a solid ~1,000 W 120 Vac grid tied inverter out there on the market? > > My system is comprised of five (5) Tata 180s. Vmpp=35.8 V. > > Peter > > Peter T. Parrish > SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > peter.parrish at solargnosis.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Apr 29 18:04:38 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 18:04:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1 kW 120 Vac grid tied inverter In-Reply-To: <7E002CEC-DF73-4B95-8999-AC3A5D77D573@gmail.com> References: <0MLQEG-1hKNe333Ks-000YNc@mrelay.perfora.net> <7E002CEC-DF73-4B95-8999-AC3A5D77D573@gmail.com> Message-ID: If it is going to be grid tied, non of the small inverters that I know of will be UL listed and they cannot be used. I also think they are all stand alone in any case. We use a fair number on boats and on the oyster farm.  I think the smallest that I can think of is Outback GTFX at 3000 watts, 120VAC, but you probably already looked at that.  Chris On 4/29/2019 10:12 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi peter. > > Check amazon or eBay etc. lots of cheap Chinese small inverters. > > Jay > > > On Apr 28, 2019, at 8:18 PM, Peter Parrish > > > wrote: > >> I replaced a number of AES (?) 120 Vac 1 kW grid tied inverter back >> when I was just starting out (2000) There was one poor design element >> with the DC fuse holders that I discovered and was able to work >> around, but I usually advised my clients to swap these inverters out >> for the SMA SWR 2500 and add some PV panels into the mix. I kept a >> couple of the AES 1000s for a while and then finally gave them to our >> local scrap metal purveyor. >> >> I have a 900 W off-grid system that I used to haul around to “green >> events”. Blue Sky CC, Xantrex 1000 W inverter, 24 V AGM battery set. >> But as time goes by I spend very little time demoing this big an >> off-grid system, and I wish I had an AES-1000 to covert my >> seldom-used off-grid system into a revenue producing grid tied system. >> >> Did anyone else keep a working AES-1000 (or low power grid tied >> inverter) that works and would be willing to part with it for a >> modest sum. Is there a solid  ~1,000 W 120 Vac grid tied inverter out >> there on the market? >> >> My system is comprised of five (5) Tata 180s. Vmpp=35.8 V. >> >> * Peter >> >> Peter T. Parrish >> SolarGnosis >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> (323) 839-6108 >> peter.parrish at solargnosis.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adirondackbattery at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 18:59:55 2019 From: adirondackbattery at gmail.com (Amanda Potter) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 18:59:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1 kW 120 Vac grid tied inverter In-Reply-To: References: <0MLQEG-1hKNe333Ks-000YNc@mrelay.perfora.net> <7E002CEC-DF73-4B95-8999-AC3A5D77D573@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8AD6231E-57CF-49BD-A5FB-C5D2B49B050B@gmail.com> Can the old Trace SW2512’s be used for “Sell-back”? Amanda Potter NABCEP PV Installation Professional NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC Potsdam, NY (315) 212-2114 > On Apr 29, 2019, at 6:04 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote: > > If it is going to be grid tied, non of the small inverters that I know of will be UL listed and they cannot be used. I also think they are all stand alone in any case. We use a fair number on boats and on the oyster farm. I think the smallest that I can think of is Outback GTFX at 3000 watts, 120VAC, but you probably already looked at that. Chris > >> On 4/29/2019 10:12 AM, Jay wrote: >> Hi peter. >> >> Check amazon or eBay etc. lots of cheap Chinese small inverters. >> >> Jay >> >> >> On Apr 28, 2019, at 8:18 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: >> >>> I replaced a number of AES (?) 120 Vac 1 kW grid tied inverter back when I was just starting out (2000) There was one poor design element with the DC fuse holders that I discovered and was able to work around, but I usually advised my clients to swap these inverters out for the SMA SWR 2500 and add some PV panels into the mix. I kept a couple of the AES 1000s for a while and then finally gave them to our local scrap metal purveyor. >>> >>> I have a 900 W off-grid system that I used to haul around to “green events”. Blue Sky CC, Xantrex 1000 W inverter, 24 V AGM battery set. But as time goes by I spend very little time demoing this big an off-grid system, and I wish I had an AES-1000 to covert my seldom-used off-grid system into a revenue producing grid tied system. >>> >>> Did anyone else keep a working AES-1000 (or low power grid tied inverter) that works and would be willing to part with it for a modest sum. Is there a solid ~1,000 W 120 Vac grid tied inverter out there on the market? >>> >>> My system is comprised of five (5) Tata 180s. Vmpp=35.8 V. >>> >>> Peter >>> >>> Peter T. Parrish >>> SolarGnosis >>> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 >>> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >>> (323) 839-6108 >>> peter.parrish at solargnosis.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 19:52:22 2019 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 18:52:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1 kW 120 Vac grid tied inverter In-Reply-To: References: <0MLQEG-1hKNe333Ks-000YNc@mrelay.perfora.net> <7E002CEC-DF73-4B95-8999-AC3A5D77D573@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7D704251-CA31-450D-A1BB-B95FC9F62200@gmail.com> The SMA 1000 was 120V output. I saw one a while back on eBay. The SMA 700 are nice little units for training. The input window is tight with newer modules. The input max current is pretty low. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 29, 2019, at 5:04 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote: > > If it is going to be grid tied, non of the small inverters that I know of will be UL listed and they cannot be used. I also think they are all stand alone in any case. We use a fair number on boats and on the oyster farm. I think the smallest that I can think of is Outback GTFX at 3000 watts, 120VAC, but you probably already looked at that. Chris > >> On 4/29/2019 10:12 AM, Jay wrote: >> Hi peter. >> >> Check amazon or eBay etc. lots of cheap Chinese small inverters. >> >> Jay >> >> >> On Apr 28, 2019, at 8:18 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: >> >>> I replaced a number of AES (?) 120 Vac 1 kW grid tied inverter back when I was just starting out (2000) There was one poor design element with the DC fuse holders that I discovered and was able to work around, but I usually advised my clients to swap these inverters out for the SMA SWR 2500 and add some PV panels into the mix. I kept a couple of the AES 1000s for a while and then finally gave them to our local scrap metal purveyor. >>> >>> I have a 900 W off-grid system that I used to haul around to “green events”. Blue Sky CC, Xantrex 1000 W inverter, 24 V AGM battery set. But as time goes by I spend very little time demoing this big an off-grid system, and I wish I had an AES-1000 to covert my seldom-used off-grid system into a revenue producing grid tied system. >>> >>> Did anyone else keep a working AES-1000 (or low power grid tied inverter) that works and would be willing to part with it for a modest sum. Is there a solid ~1,000 W 120 Vac grid tied inverter out there on the market? >>> >>> My system is comprised of five (5) Tata 180s. Vmpp=35.8 V. >>> >>> Peter >>> >>> Peter T. Parrish >>> SolarGnosis >>> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 >>> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >>> (323) 839-6108 >>> peter.parrish at solargnosis.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 00:31:14 2019 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 04:31:14 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1 kW 120 Vac grid tied inverter In-Reply-To: <7D704251-CA31-450D-A1BB-B95FC9F62200@gmail.com> References: <0MLQEG-1hKNe333Ks-000YNc@mrelay.perfora.net> <7E002CEC-DF73-4B95-8999-AC3A5D77D573@gmail.com> , <7D704251-CA31-450D-A1BB-B95FC9F62200@gmail.com> Message-ID: You might try Sam Vanderhoof over at Solar Cowboys (Grass Valley area) .. They have been rebuilding and reselling older models of ALL sorts of stuff for the technician-from-another-time. . Any time I need something like a 120vAC SMA or something Legacy. . . They have it. . Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Solar Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 4:52:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 1 kW 120 Vac grid tied inverter The SMA 1000 was 120V output. I saw one a while back on eBay. The SMA 700 are nice little units for training. The input window is tight with newer modules. The input max current is pretty low. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone On Apr 29, 2019, at 5:04 PM, Christopher Warfel > wrote: If it is going to be grid tied, non of the small inverters that I know of will be UL listed and they cannot be used. I also think they are all stand alone in any case. We use a fair number on boats and on the oyster farm. I think the smallest that I can think of is Outback GTFX at 3000 watts, 120VAC, but you probably already looked at that. Chris On 4/29/2019 10:12 AM, Jay wrote: Hi peter. Check amazon or eBay etc. lots of cheap Chinese small inverters. Jay On Apr 28, 2019, at 8:18 PM, Peter Parrish > wrote: I replaced a number of AES (?) 120 Vac 1 kW grid tied inverter back when I was just starting out (2000) There was one poor design element with the DC fuse holders that I discovered and was able to work around, but I usually advised my clients to swap these inverters out for the SMA SWR 2500 and add some PV panels into the mix. I kept a couple of the AES 1000s for a while and then finally gave them to our local scrap metal purveyor. I have a 900 W off-grid system that I used to haul around to “green events”. Blue Sky CC, Xantrex 1000 W inverter, 24 V AGM battery set. But as time goes by I spend very little time demoing this big an off-grid system, and I wish I had an AES-1000 to covert my seldom-used off-grid system into a revenue producing grid tied system. Did anyone else keep a working AES-1000 (or low power grid tied inverter) that works and would be willing to part with it for a modest sum. Is there a solid ~1,000 W 120 Vac grid tied inverter out there on the market? My system is comprised of five (5) Tata 180s. Vmpp=35.8 V. * Peter Peter T. Parrish SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Tue Apr 30 08:12:19 2019 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 08:12:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1 kW 120 Vac grid tied inverter In-Reply-To: <0MLQEG-1hKNe333Ks-000YNc@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0MLQEG-1hKNe333Ks-000YNc@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: Why not use a couple of micro inverters? You'd have to check the specs to see if they're compatible but that may work. Thanks, Will White -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 11:49 PM Peter Parrish < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > I replaced a number of AES (?) 120 Vac 1 kW grid tied inverter back when I > was just starting out (2000) There was one poor design element with the DC > fuse holders that I discovered and was able to work around, but I usually > advised my clients to swap these inverters out for the SMA SWR 2500 and add > some PV panels into the mix. I kept a couple of the AES 1000s for a while > and then finally gave them to our local scrap metal purveyor. > > > > I have a 900 W off-grid system that I used to haul around to “green > events”. Blue Sky CC, Xantrex 1000 W inverter, 24 V AGM battery set. But as > time goes by I spend very little time demoing this big an off-grid system, > and I wish I had an AES-1000 to covert my seldom-used off-grid system into > a revenue producing grid tied system. > > > > Did anyone else keep a working AES-1000 (or low power grid tied inverter) > that works and would be willing to part with it for a modest sum. Is there > a solid ~1,000 W 120 Vac grid tied inverter out there on the market? > > > > My system is comprised of five (5) Tata 180s. Vmpp=35.8 V. > > > > - Peter > > > > Peter T. Parrish > SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > peter.parrish at solargnosis.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Apr 30 12:26:40 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 12:26:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for 48 V. Each battery has 2 terminals which will be about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they will be wired to. Standard battery jumpers would be ridiculous in this situation. Busbars would be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a solution. Does anyone know of a source for busbars? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Apr 30 12:31:25 2019 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 11:31:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers In-Reply-To: <20190430162745.6615D107575@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20190430162745.6615D107575@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <80054806-1AB2-4D0C-A629-A26BAB4020A3@mavericksolar.com> I make custom bus bars for Concorde and Fullriver. Which battery are you installing, 12150 or 9150? Contact me directly and I’ll see if have what you need in stock. Thank you, Maverick > On Apr 30, 2019, at 11:26 AM, Drake wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for 48 V. Each battery has 2 terminals which will be about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they will be wired to. Standard battery jumpers would be ridiculous in this situation. Busbars would be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a solution. > > Does anyone know of a source for busbars? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 13:32:12 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 11:32:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Altitude affects batteries Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, We are often working at higher elevation. I have a project that I'm specifying a large battery bank at 9800'. I haven't thought much about elevation and batteries. I just recently read that LG Chem's HV battery can't be used above 2000m. What are the elevation considerations for batteries? Any warranty considerations that you have ran into? Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 14:54:28 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 13:54:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Altitude affects batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it is air density for cooling On Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 12:32 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > We are often working at higher elevation. I have a project that I'm > specifying a large battery bank at 9800'. I haven't thought much about > elevation and batteries. I just recently read that LG Chem's HV battery > can't be used above 2000m. > > What are the elevation considerations for batteries? Any warranty > considerations that you have ran into? > > Thanks! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 13:02:11 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 11:02:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers In-Reply-To: <20190430162745.ECC08107788@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20190430162745.ECC08107788@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <4566A98B-36EC-4D11-88FF-A82E636593C4@gmail.com> HI Drake, I’ve used https://stormpowercomponents.com jay peltz power > On Apr 30, 2019, at 10:26 AM, Drake wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for 48 V. Each battery has 2 terminals which will be about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they will be wired to. Standard battery jumpers would be ridiculous in this situation. Busbars would be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a solution. > > Does anyone know of a source for busbars? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > <>Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Apr 30 15:10:54 2019 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 15:10:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Altitude affects batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry for the short response... For electrochemical batteries, it would be temperatures or air cooling maybe ventilation. For Lithium batteries, there is electronics internally, high altitudes would affect cooling, and the components.. On Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 2:54 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: > I think it is air density for cooling > > > On Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 12:32 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> We are often working at higher elevation. I have a project that I'm >> specifying a large battery bank at 9800'. I haven't thought much about >> elevation and batteries. I just recently read that LG Chem's HV battery >> can't be used above 2000m. >> >> What are the elevation considerations for batteries? Any warranty >> considerations that you have ran into? >> >> Thanks! >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Apr 30 15:42:31 2019 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 12:42:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers In-Reply-To: <20190430162745.91CFD10774C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20190430162745.91CFD10774C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <1F5E597A-AB82-471A-9C7F-ACC195A4AE52@starlightsolar.com> Hi Drake, The way I wire them is to place them side by side and flip every other battery 180°. Then you can use a interconnect cable without tight bends. I attached a diagram as it is easier to see than to describe. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 30, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for 48 V. Each battery has 2 terminals which will be about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they will be wired to. Standard battery jumpers would be ridiculous in this situation. Busbars would be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a solution. Does anyone know of a source for busbars? Thank you, Drake <>Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: untitled.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 67536 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Apr 30 15:49:19 2019 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 15:49:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers In-Reply-To: <1F5E597A-AB82-471A-9C7F-ACC195A4AE52@starlightsolar.com> References: <20190430162745.91CFD10774C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <1F5E597A-AB82-471A-9C7F-ACC195A4AE52@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Many I have spoken with will order these thru Storm Power Componets, you just have to have the measurements, so they can make them up. On Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 3:44 PM Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Hi Drake, > > The way I wire them is to place them side by side and flip every other > battery 180°. Then you can use a interconnect cable without tight bends. I > attached a diagram as it is easier to see than to describe. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > On Apr 30, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Drake > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for 48 V. Each battery has 2 > terminals which will be about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they > will be wired to. Standard battery jumpers would be ridiculous in this > situation. Busbars would be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a > solution. > > Does anyone know of a source for busbars? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Apr 30 15:57:56 2019 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 12:57:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers In-Reply-To: <1F5E597A-AB82-471A-9C7F-ACC195A4AE52@starlightsolar.com> References: <20190430162745.91CFD10774C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <1F5E597A-AB82-471A-9C7F-ACC195A4AE52@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <72FDC06A-588C-4EFA-8FAD-8F08B459BF0F@starlightsolar.com> Sorry Drake, I should read better…you said Concorde. Larry On Apr 30, 2019, at 12:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Hi Drake, The way I wire them is to place them side by side and flip every other battery 180°. Then you can use a interconnect cable without tight bends. I attached a diagram as it is easier to see than to describe. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 30, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Drake > wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for 48 V. Each battery has 2 terminals which will be about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they will be wired to. Standard battery jumpers would be ridiculous in this situation. Busbars would be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a solution. Does anyone know of a source for busbars? Thank you, Drake <>Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Apr 30 16:16:28 2019 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 13:16:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers In-Reply-To: <72FDC06A-588C-4EFA-8FAD-8F08B459BF0F@starlightsolar.com> References: <20190430162745.91CFD10774C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <1F5E597A-AB82-471A-9C7F-ACC195A4AE52@starlightsolar.com> <72FDC06A-588C-4EFA-8FAD-8F08B459BF0F@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Well, perhaps I was on track anyway….you can use the same method (flip every other battery) if you are using a battery with 2 terminals per pole (like Lifeline). Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 30, 2019, at 12:57 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Sorry Drake, I should read better…you said Concorde. Larry On Apr 30, 2019, at 12:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems > wrote: Hi Drake, The way I wire them is to place them side by side and flip every other battery 180°. Then you can use a interconnect cable without tight bends. I attached a diagram as it is easier to see than to describe. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 30, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Drake > wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for 48 V. Each battery has 2 terminals which will be about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they will be wired to. Standard battery jumpers would be ridiculous in this situation. Busbars would be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a solution. Does anyone know of a source for busbars? Thank you, Drake <>Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Fullriver DC1150-2 wiring.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 20835 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Tue Apr 30 16:55:20 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 16:55:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1 kW 120 Vac grid tied inverter In-Reply-To: References: <0MLQEG-1hKNe333Ks-000YNc@mrelay.perfora.net> <7E002CEC-DF73-4B95-8999-AC3A5D77D573@gmail.com> <7D704251-CA31-450D-A1BB-B95FC9F62200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1AD1365C-D0F9-4496-BD82-E93C14A37964@villagepowerdesign.com> Didn’t Solectria make a small unit for a while? It’s not a SMA but we had good luck with them. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 30, 2019, at 12:31 AM, MiJo Nels wrote: > > You might try Sam Vanderhoof over at Solar Cowboys (Grass Valley area) .. They have been rebuilding and reselling older models of ALL sorts of stuff for the technician-from-another-time. . Any time I need something like a 120vAC SMA or something Legacy. . . They have it. . > > Joe Nelson > > Project Manager C-46/C-10 > Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation > > CSL# 868816 > www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com > 530-273-4422 (Office) > > 530-217-8385 (Cell) > >  > >     > > > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Solar > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 4:52:22 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 1 kW 120 Vac grid tied inverter > > The SMA 1000 was 120V output. I saw one a while back on eBay. > > The SMA 700 are nice little units for training. The input window is tight with newer modules. The input max current is pretty low. > > Jesse Dahl > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 29, 2019, at 5:04 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote: > >> If it is going to be grid tied, non of the small inverters that I know of will be UL listed and they cannot be used. I also think they are all stand alone in any case. We use a fair number on boats and on the oyster farm. I think the smallest that I can think of is Outback GTFX at 3000 watts, 120VAC, but you probably already looked at that. Chris >> >>> On 4/29/2019 10:12 AM, Jay wrote: >>> Hi peter. >>> >>> Check amazon or eBay etc. lots of cheap Chinese small inverters. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> On Apr 28, 2019, at 8:18 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: >>> >>>> I replaced a number of AES (?) 120 Vac 1 kW grid tied inverter back when I was just starting out (2000) There was one poor design element with the DC fuse holders that I discovered and was able to work around, but I usually advised my clients to swap these inverters out for the SMA SWR 2500 and add some PV panels into the mix. I kept a couple of the AES 1000s for a while and then finally gave them to our local scrap metal purveyor. >>>> >>>> I have a 900 W off-grid system that I used to haul around to “green events”. Blue Sky CC, Xantrex 1000 W inverter, 24 V AGM battery set. But as time goes by I spend very little time demoing this big an off-grid system, and I wish I had an AES-1000 to covert my seldom-used off-grid system into a revenue producing grid tied system. >>>> >>>> Did anyone else keep a working AES-1000 (or low power grid tied inverter) that works and would be willing to part with it for a modest sum. Is there a solid ~1,000 W 120 Vac grid tied inverter out there on the market? >>>> >>>> My system is comprised of five (5) Tata 180s. Vmpp=35.8 V. >>>> >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> Peter T. Parrish >>>> SolarGnosis >>>> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 >>>> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >>>> (323) 839-6108 >>>> peter.parrish at solargnosis.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Apr 30 20:35:36 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 20:35:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers In-Reply-To: <72FDC06A-588C-4EFA-8FAD-8F08B459BF0F@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <399c1b2cdb909af7c6ff5c7322ca96da9f88a711@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> The same method would apply, and looks viable. Thanks, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 12:57:56 -0700 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers Sorry Drake, I should read better…you said Concorde. Larry On Apr 30, 2019, at 12:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Hi Drake, The way I wire them is to place them side by side and flip every other battery 180°. Then you can use a interconnect cable without tight bends. I attached a diagram as it is easier to see than to describe. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 30, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for 48 V. Each battery has 2 terminals which will be about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they will be wired to. Standard battery jumpers would be ridiculous in this situation. Busbars would be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a solution. Does anyone know of a source for busbars? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com [2] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [3] http://athens-electric.com/ [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Apr 30 20:37:28 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 20:37:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4db2728c3b12b119f7c57fd96a4936916d0323d2@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> That is exactly the setup. Thanks, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 13:16:28 -0700 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers Well, perhaps I was on track anyway….you can use the same method (flip every other battery) if you are using a battery with 2 terminals per pole (like Lifeline). Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 30, 2019, at 12:57 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Sorry Drake, I should read better…you said Concorde. Larry On Apr 30, 2019, at 12:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Hi Drake, The way I wire them is to place them side by side and flip every other battery 180°. Then you can use a interconnect cable without tight bends. I attached a diagram as it is easier to see than to describe. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 30, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for 48 V. Each battery has 2 terminals which will be about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they will be wired to. Standard battery jumpers would be ridiculous in this situation. Busbars would be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a solution. Does anyone know of a source for busbars? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ [4] Links: ------ [1] mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com [2] mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com [3] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [4] http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Apr 30 20:31:39 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 20:31:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers In-Reply-To: <20190430162745.0544F1075D2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20190430162745.0544F1075D2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <001001d4ffb5$402420e0$c06c62a0$@glbcc.com> I have always bought the appropriately sized for the anticipated current, copper bar stock from McMaster Carr and cut, drilled and applied heat shrink myself. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 12:27 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers Hello Wrenches, I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for 48 V. Each battery has 2 terminals which will be about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they will be wired to. Standard battery jumpers would be ridiculous in this situation. Busbars would be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a solution. Does anyone know of a source for busbars? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed May 1 08:05:49 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 01 May 2019 08:05:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers In-Reply-To: <001001d4ffb5$402420e0$c06c62a0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <176481e5bc93df2a5b8103d25aadd242ab0a9335@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Glenn, Thank you for that good information. Where do you find the specifications relating cross sectional area to amperage? Section 366.23 of the NEC allows 1000 A / sq. in. of cross sectional area of the conductor. Is that a good rule of thumb, or is there something more specific to battery busing? Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com "RE-wrenches" To:"RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent:Tue, 30 Apr 2019 20:31:39 -0400 Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers I have always bought the appropriately sized for the anticipated current, copper bar stock from McMaster Carr and cut, drilled and applied heat shrink myself…   -Glenn   FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Drake SENT: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 12:27 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers   Hello Wrenches, I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for 48 V. Each battery has 2 terminals which will be about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they will be wired to. Standard battery jumpers would be ridiculous in this situation. Busbars would be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a solution. Does anyone know of a source for busbars? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ [1] Links: ------ [1] http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Wed May 1 09:32:38 2019 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 13:32:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers In-Reply-To: <176481e5bc93df2a5b8103d25aadd242ab0a9335@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <001001d4ffb5$402420e0$c06c62a0$@glbcc.com> <176481e5bc93df2a5b8103d25aadd242ab0a9335@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <587051324.3103988.1556717558445@mail.yahoo.com> table 3 is a bus bar size selector based on ampacities--you can match that with what Mcmaster offers in 101 copper (higher purity than standard 110 copper).we've made bus bars for years using this method. trickiest part is drilling a clean hole in the copper. https://www.copper.org/publications/pub_list/pdf/a6022.pdf Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com On Wednesday, May 1, 2019, 8:05:59 AM EDT, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: Glenn, Thank you for that good information. Where do you find the specifications relating cross sectional area to amperage? Section 366.23 of the NEC allows 1000 A / sq. in. of cross sectional area of the conductor. Is that a good rule of thumb, or is there something more specific to battery busing? Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com "RE-wrenches" To:"RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent:Tue, 30 Apr 2019 20:31:39 -0400 Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers I have always bought the appropriately sized for the anticipated current, copper bar stock from McMaster Carr and cut, drilled and applied heat shrink myself…   -Glenn   From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 12:27 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers   Hello Wrenches, I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for 48 V. Each battery has 2 terminals which will be about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they will be wired to. Standard battery jumpers would be ridiculous in this situation. Busbars would be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a solution. Does anyone know of a source for busbars? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Wed May 1 13:39:21 2019 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Wed, 01 May 2019 10:39:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar Modules Message-ID: Greetings Wrenches, I am in need of 6 Canadian solar CS6X-320P solar panels. Could be the 310, 315, or 325 versions as well. Just need to be the same form factor. Please contact me off list if you know of any. Thanks! Chad Waits President/Owner ­ Net Zero Solar 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Office: 520-207-4053 Cell: 520-270-4873 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Transparent-Logo Signature[1][21].png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed May 1 15:31:19 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 15:31:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers In-Reply-To: <176481e5bc93df2a5b8103d25aadd242ab0a9335@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <001001d4ffb5$402420e0$c06c62a0$@glbcc.com> <176481e5bc93df2a5b8103d25aadd242ab0a9335@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <00a101d50054$76447b30$62cd7190$@glbcc.com> Drake, I found the information available online at the Copper Development Association website to be valuable for DC applications: https://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/busbar/ Hope this helps. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2019 8:06 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers Glenn, Thank you for that good information. Where do you find the specifications relating cross sectional area to amperage? Section 366.23 of the NEC allows 1000 A / sq. in. of cross sectional area of the conductor. Is that a good rule of thumb, or is there something more specific to battery busing? Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com "RE-wrenches" < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> To: "RE-wrenches" < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Cc: Sent: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 20:31:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers I have always bought the appropriately sized for the anticipated current, copper bar stock from McMaster Carr and cut, drilled and applied heat shrink myself… -Glenn From: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 12:27 PM To: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers Hello Wrenches, I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for 48 V. Each battery has 2 terminals which will be about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they will be wired to. Standard battery jumpers would be ridiculous in this situation. Busbars would be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a solution. Does anyone know of a source for busbars? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu May 2 11:16:05 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 02 May 2019 11:16:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers In-Reply-To: <00a101d50054$76447b30$62cd7190$@glbcc.com> References: <001001d4ffb5$402420e0$c06c62a0$@glbcc.com> <176481e5bc93df2a5b8103d25aadd242ab0a9335@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <00a101d50054$76447b30$62cd7190$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: What great information from you guys! Anyone who saves these tables should be able to design bus bars with confidence. Thank you, Drake At 03:31 PM 5/1/2019, you wrote: >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A2_01D50032.EF3413B0" >Content-Language: en-us > >Drake, >I found the information available online at the >Copper Development Association website to be valuable for DC applications: > >https://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/busbar/ > >Hope this helps. >-Glenn > >From: RE-wrenches > On >Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2019 8:06 AM >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers > >Glenn, > >Thank you for that good information. > >Where do you find the specifications relating >cross sectional area to amperage? Section 366.23 >of the NEC allows 1000 A / sq. in. of cross >sectional area of the conductor. Is that a good >rule of thumb, or is there something more specific to battery busing? > >Drake > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >glenn.burt at glbcc.com >"RE-wrenches" ><re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > >To: >"RE-wrenches" ><re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >Cc: > >Sent: >Tue, 30 Apr 2019 20:31:39 -0400 >Subject: >Re: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers > >I have always bought the appropriately sized for >the anticipated current, copper bar stock from >McMaster Carr and cut, drilled and applied heat shrink myself > > >-Glenn > > >From: RE-wrenches ><re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> >On Behalf Of Drake >Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 12:27 PM >To: RE-wrenches ><re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers > > >Hello Wrenches, > >I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for >48 V. Each battery has 2 terminals which will be >about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they >will be wired to. Standard battery jumpers would >be ridiculous in this situation. Busbars would >be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a solution. > >Does anyone know of a source for busbars? > >Thank you, > >Drake > >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Thu May 2 15:26:43 2019 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 15:26:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers In-Reply-To: <20190502151623.2D16D1081FC@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <001001d4ffb5$402420e0$c06c62a0$@glbcc.com> <176481e5bc93df2a5b8103d25aadd242ab0a9335@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <00a101d50054$76447b30$62cd7190$@glbcc.com> <20190502151623.2D16D1081FC@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <75D74E34-4F13-448C-A67F-D86BB3DE695E@icloud.com> These are great charts. What I’ve always done this to find cross-sectional area of the typical round battery cable ampacity required per the NEC. Then calculate equivalent cross-sectional area of rectangular copper bus and buy that dimension in 6’ lengths to make my own. Kirk Herander > On May 2, 2019, at 11:16 AM, Drake wrote: > > What great information from you guys! Anyone who saves these tables should be able to design bus bars with confidence. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > At 03:31 PM 5/1/2019, you wrote: >> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A2_01D50032.EF3413B0" >> Content-Language: en-us >> >> Drake, >> I found the information available online at the Copper Development Association website to be valuable for DC applications: >> >> https://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/busbar/ >> >> Hope this helps. >> -Glenn >> >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >> Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2019 8:06 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers >> >> Glenn, >> >> Thank you for that good information. >> >> Where do you find the specifications relating cross sectional area to amperage? Section 366.23 of the NEC allows 1000 A / sq. in. of cross sectional area of the conductor. Is that a good rule of thumb, or is there something more specific to battery busing? >> >> Drake >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> glenn.burt at glbcc.com "RE-wrenches" < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> >> To: >> "RE-wrenches" < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> Cc: >> >> Sent: >> Tue, 30 Apr 2019 20:31:39 -0400 >> Subject: >> Re: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers >> >> I have always bought the appropriately sized for the anticipated current, copper bar stock from McMaster Carr and cut, drilled and applied heat shrink myself… >> >> >> -Glenn >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> On Behalf Of Drake >> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 12:27 PM >> To: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bus bar battery jumpers >> >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I am wiring a set of 2 V Concorde batteries for 48 V. Each battery has 2 terminals which will be about 2 1/2 inches away from the terminals they will be wired to. Standard battery jumpers would be ridiculous in this situation. Busbars would be clean and efficient. Concorde doesn't have a solution. >> >> Does anyone know of a source for busbars? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Fri May 3 08:58:20 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 08:58:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup Message-ID: Hi All, Does anyone have a good recommendation for an AC coupled energy storage solution for someone who has a 27.6kw array with two SE11400A-US inverters? The output of one of those inverters is more than a Sonnen or Radian can handle (which is what I am most familiar with). I am not sure yet whether this will be a whole home backup or just a subset of their loads, but they have two 200A panels on a single 200A service. Thanks, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri May 3 09:27:31 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 08:27:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: the 2 each 200 Amp panels is to overcome the 42 circuit limit in one panel. must be a big house. This sounds like a whole house backup. you will need a transfer switch much like a whole house generator switch unless your customer needs TOU or some other grid service. For the AC coupled paralleled Radians or XW6848 and have a turn off for one or both of the SB inverters based on battery voltage (SOC). On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 7:58 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > > Does anyone have a good recommendation for an AC coupled energy storage > solution for someone who has a 27.6kw array with two SE11400A-US inverters? > The output of one of those inverters is more than a Sonnen or Radian can > handle (which is what I am most familiar with). > I am not sure yet whether this will be a whole home backup or just a > subset of their loads, but they have two 200A panels on a single 200A > service. > > Thanks, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Fri May 3 09:43:22 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 09:43:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Darryl, Yea, it used to be two separate 200A services. At some point, someone decided to turn one of those panels into a sub and run it all of a single service. Regarding paralleling Radians, I know that the max solar input when AC coupled is only 6kw for an 8kw inverter. When they are paralleled, does that jump up to a single 12kw input, or are you just limited to two 6kw inputs? Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 9:27 AM Darryl Thayer wrote: > the 2 each 200 Amp panels is to overcome the 42 circuit limit in one > panel. must be a big house. This sounds like a whole house backup. you > will need a transfer switch much like a whole house generator switch unless > your customer needs TOU or some other grid service. > > For the AC coupled paralleled Radians or XW6848 and have a turn off for > one or both of the SB inverters based on battery voltage (SOC). > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 7:58 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Does anyone have a good recommendation for an AC coupled energy storage >> solution for someone who has a 27.6kw array with two SE11400A-US inverters? >> The output of one of those inverters is more than a Sonnen or Radian can >> handle (which is what I am most familiar with). >> I am not sure yet whether this will be a whole home backup or just a >> subset of their loads, but they have two 200A panels on a single 200A >> service. >> >> Thanks, >> Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >> B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Fri May 3 14:54:48 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 18:54:48 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Yes, two radians combined can handle one 12 kW grid tied inverter. The 6 kW limitation is not a limitation of how much power the radian can actually handle, it's that the grid tied inverters do an impedance/stability test, and some inverters larger than 6 kW will detect that the inverter is not actually the grid, and the GT inverter will shut down before it even fires up. If it weren't for that, the radian would be able to handle more PV in an AC coupled situation. Is this an all new system? Sometimes, doing a mixture of AC and DC coupling makes the most sense financially if you don't actually need 4 radians worth of backup power. The following setup I'm talking about assumes that you have an external transfer switch, and it's the extreme setup, not necessarily a recommended setup. I just want to demonstrate that you would really only need 2 radians if the required instantaneous backup power needs were low enough. If you do an AC/DC coupled mix, for each Radian, you can actually handle up to 6 kW AC of GT inverter(s), and it can export 7.2 kW AC from the DC coupled side. With a DC/AC ratio of 1.25, that would be 7.5 kW of AC coupled PV and 9 kW of DC coupled PV, so with the right design and external transfer switch, the radian could potentially handle up to 16.25 of PV per inverter. Now you have to tie the AC coupled PV into the load side of the transfer switch (or in the backed up loads panel). This way, if the grid is available, the AC coupled PV is not connected at all to the battery based inverter, but when the power fails, then the PV gets connected to the radian(s) through the transfer switch. Again, I want to stress that it is imperative that with this kind of system, it has to be tied through an automatic external transfer switch, and that you can't have the power flowing to the grid from both the AC and DC coupled PV simultaneously. Hope this is somewhat helpful. Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Friday, May 3, 2019 7:43 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup Thanks Darryl, Yea, it used to be two separate 200A services. At some point, someone decided to turn one of those panels into a sub and run it all of a single service. Regarding paralleling Radians, I know that the max solar input when AC coupled is only 6kw for an 8kw inverter. When they are paralleled, does that jump up to a single 12kw input, or are you just limited to two 6kw inputs? Cheers, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 9:27 AM Darryl Thayer > wrote: the 2 each 200 Amp panels is to overcome the 42 circuit limit in one panel. must be a big house. This sounds like a whole house backup. you will need a transfer switch much like a whole house generator switch unless your customer needs TOU or some other grid service. For the AC coupled paralleled Radians or XW6848 and have a turn off for one or both of the SB inverters based on battery voltage (SOC). On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 7:58 AM Dave Tedeyan > wrote: Hi All, Does anyone have a good recommendation for an AC coupled energy storage solution for someone who has a 27.6kw array with two SE11400A-US inverters? The output of one of those inverters is more than a Sonnen or Radian can handle (which is what I am most familiar with). I am not sure yet whether this will be a whole home backup or just a subset of their loads, but they have two 200A panels on a single 200A service. Thanks, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0174.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 308909 bytes Desc: IMG_0174.jpeg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0177.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 315845 bytes Desc: IMG_0177.jpeg URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri May 3 15:45:28 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 15:45:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries Message-ID: Hi Folks, About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job. The client is not a heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost effective. We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he was using (making up for past profligate power usage). We will be using a dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire in a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead). I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either: - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity. Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price. If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my comparison, I'd greatly appreciate it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Fri May 3 16:34:48 2019 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 16:34:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie, Have you looked at Fortress Power batteries? We're about to install some and they look like a very decent battery. Google will get you the basic info to start. Daryl Penobscot Solar Design > Hi Folks, > About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job. The client is not a > heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost > effective. > We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the > backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he > wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he > was using (making up for past profligate power usage). We will be using a > dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire > in > a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead). > I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either: > > - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or > - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries > > Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider > Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into > the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated > cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity. > > Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size > allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse > and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price. > > If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my > comparison, > I'd greatly appreciate it. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri May 3 16:49:27 2019 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 16:49:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd be very cautious about getting too cosy with any of these battery companies, it seems their only aim is to get bought. Sonnen was acquired by Shell Oil, Pika by Generac. I'm a generac dealer so I am exploring what their intentions are. I doubt Shell will be gung-ho to continue to support solar, so where does that leave my Sonnen customers? Make sure your customers are aware you don't know where this is going and whether any of these guys will stay the course. Companies like trojan and Outback are going to be around, but Fortress? Unlikely. On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:34 PM wrote: > Hi Howie, > Have you looked at Fortress Power batteries? We're about to install > some and they look like a very decent battery. Google will get you the > basic info to start. > > > Daryl > Penobscot Solar Design > > > > > Hi Folks, > > About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job. The client is not a > > heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost > > effective. > > We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the > > backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he > > wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he > > was using (making up for past profligate power usage). We will be using > a > > dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire > > in > > a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead). > > I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either: > > > > - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or > > - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries > > > > Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the > Schneider > > Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into > > the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated > > cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity. > > > > Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size > > allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse > > and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price. > > > > If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my > > comparison, > > I'd greatly appreciate it. > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 3 16:47:41 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 03 May 2019 13:47:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2b9da6267f9b636006a5650773f1b8a2@127.0.0.1> Hi Howie, The largest I have seen/worked on is the AES with (17) 6.6 KWH batteries. I can tell you it works fine with an XW system. Even though it looks like AES uses the conext battery monitor, it really does not and you do not have to buy one. Because AES was from xantrex employees, Schneider lets them use the xanbus data to simulate a battery monitor. See attachment for what it looks like on the conext gateway. The Iron Edison is nice also but you would need the shunt and battery monitor. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 3 May 2019 15:45:28 -0400, Howie Michaelson wrote: Hi Folks, About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job. The client is not a heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost effective. We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he was using (making up for past profligate power usage). We will be using a dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire in a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead). I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either: * (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or * (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity. Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price. If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my comparison, I'd greatly appreciate it. -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Discover AES on gateway.png Type: image/png Size: 141767 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Fri May 3 17:05:28 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 17:05:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kienan, Thanks for the info here. That is really interesting about the 6kw limitation. Outback clearly states that limit, but Sonnen has managed to surpass that with their programming of the Radian. The PV part of the system is already existing, so this will need to be AC coupled entirely. I may just aim to AC couple one of the two 11.4kw inverters though. Another slightly complicating factor is that the array is ground mounted and interconnects near the meter which is roughly 100' from the house. Fortunately there is that old service line that I may be able to use to bring power from the solar all the way back to the house. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:54 PM Kienan Maxfield wrote: > Yes, two radians combined can handle one 12 kW grid tied inverter. > > The 6 kW limitation is not a limitation of how much power the radian can > actually handle, it's that the grid tied inverters do an > impedance/stability test, and some inverters larger than 6 kW will detect > that the inverter is not actually the grid, and the GT inverter will shut > down before it even fires up. If it weren't for that, the radian would be > able to handle more PV in an AC coupled situation. > > Is this an all new system? Sometimes, doing a mixture of AC and DC > coupling makes the most sense financially if you don't actually need 4 > radians worth of backup power. The following setup I'm talking about > assumes that you have an external transfer switch, and it's the extreme > setup, not necessarily a recommended setup. I just want to demonstrate that > you would really only need 2 radians if the required instantaneous backup > power needs were low enough. > > If you do an AC/DC coupled mix, for each Radian, you can actually handle > up to 6 kW AC of GT inverter(s), and it can export 7.2 kW AC from the DC > coupled side. With a DC/AC ratio of 1.25, that would be 7.5 kW of AC > coupled PV and 9 kW of DC coupled PV, so with the right design and external > transfer switch, the radian could potentially handle up to 16.25 of PV per > inverter. Now you have to tie the AC coupled PV into the load side of the > transfer switch (or in the backed up loads panel). This way, if the grid is > available, the AC coupled PV is not connected at all to the battery based > inverter, but when the power fails, then the PV gets connected to the > radian(s) through the transfer switch. Again, I want to stress that it is > imperative that with this kind of system, it has to be tied through an > automatic external transfer switch, and that you can't have the power > flowing to the grid from both the AC and DC coupled PV simultaneously. > > Hope this is somewhat helpful. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > > *Maxfield Solar* > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* > * (801) 631-5584 (Cell) * > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Dave Tedeyan > *Sent:* Friday, May 3, 2019 7:43 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup > > Thanks Darryl, > Yea, it used to be two separate 200A services. At some point, someone > decided to turn one of those panels into a sub and run it all of a single > service. > Regarding paralleling Radians, I know that the max solar input when AC > coupled is only 6kw for an 8kw inverter. When they are paralleled, does > that jump up to a single 12kw input, or are you just limited to two 6kw > inputs? > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 9:27 AM Darryl Thayer > wrote: > > the 2 each 200 Amp panels is to overcome the 42 circuit limit in one > panel. must be a big house. This sounds like a whole house backup. you > will need a transfer switch much like a whole house generator switch unless > your customer needs TOU or some other grid service. > > For the AC coupled paralleled Radians or XW6848 and have a turn off for > one or both of the SB inverters based on battery voltage (SOC). > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 7:58 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > > Does anyone have a good recommendation for an AC coupled energy storage > solution for someone who has a 27.6kw array with two SE11400A-US inverters? > The output of one of those inverters is more than a Sonnen or Radian can > handle (which is what I am most familiar with). > I am not sure yet whether this will be a whole home backup or just a > subset of their loads, but they have two 200A panels on a single 200A > service. > > Thanks, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri May 3 17:10:41 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 17:10:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: <2b9da6267f9b636006a5650773f1b8a2@127.0.0.1> References: <2b9da6267f9b636006a5650773f1b8a2@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Thanks Dave. Do you need an add-on to get the interface from the AES to the Conext gateway? Have you used Iron Edison's lithium offering? Is there a comprehensible reason for the significant price differential between the 2? Do you know where the IronEdison are manufactured? Howie On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:53 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Hi Howie, > > The largest I have seen/worked on is the AES with (17) 6.6 KWH batteries. > I can tell you it works fine with an XW system. > > Even though it looks like AES uses the conext battery monitor, it really > does not and you do not have to buy one. Because AES was from xantrex > employees, Schneider lets them use the xanbus data to simulate a battery > monitor. See attachment for what it looks like on the conext gateway. The > Iron Edison is nice also but you would need the shunt and battery monitor. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 3 May 2019 15:45:28 -0400, Howie Michaelson < > Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Folks, > About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job. The client is not a > heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost > effective. > We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the > backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he > wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he > was using (making up for past profligate power usage). We will be using a > dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire in > a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead). > I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either: > > - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or > - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries > > Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider > Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into > the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated > cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity. > > Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size > allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse > and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price. > > If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my > comparison, I'd greatly appreciate it. > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri May 3 17:13:02 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 17:13:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, Thanks for the reminder. I've stayed out of the Lithium option until now, largely because of just that, but now that I'm delving in, that is a good reminder. I swore off bleeding edge products years ago, but I guess I'm running the risk of bleeding again... Howie On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:49 PM Chris Mason wrote: > I'd be very cautious about getting too cosy with any of these battery > companies, it seems their only aim is to get bought. Sonnen was acquired by > Shell Oil, Pika by Generac. I'm a generac dealer so I am exploring what > their intentions are. I doubt Shell will be gung-ho to continue to support > solar, so where does that leave my Sonnen customers? > Make sure your customers are aware you don't know where this is going and > whether any of these guys will stay the course. Companies like trojan and > Outback are going to be around, but Fortress? Unlikely. > > > > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:34 PM wrote: > >> Hi Howie, >> Have you looked at Fortress Power batteries? We're about to install >> some and they look like a very decent battery. Google will get you the >> basic info to start. >> >> >> Daryl >> Penobscot Solar Design >> >> >> >> > Hi Folks, >> > About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job. The client is not a >> > heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost >> > effective. >> > We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the >> > backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he >> > wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he >> > was using (making up for past profligate power usage). We will be >> using a >> > dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire >> > in >> > a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup >> instead). >> > I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either: >> > >> > - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or >> > - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries >> > >> > Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the >> Schneider >> > Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight >> into >> > the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated >> > cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity. >> > >> > Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size >> > allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated >> fuse >> > and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price. >> > >> > If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my >> > comparison, >> > I'd greatly appreciate it. >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at westcoastsustainables.com Fri May 3 17:30:03 2019 From: jason at westcoastsustainables.com (Jason Andrade) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 14:30:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries Message-ID: Howie, I’ve used a few different brands and am currently using the Discover AES, I have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual stack of XW inverters and they are working great, As for another post comment that these companies are looking to be bought out, Discover is long time battery manufacturer and I feel pretty confident they will be here to honor the warranty. If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did on my wood shop. Jason Andrade West Coast Sustainables > > >> Hi Folks, >> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job. The client is not a >> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost >> effective. >> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the >> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he >> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he >> was using (making up for past profligate power usage). We will be using a >> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire >> in >> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead). >> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either: >> >> - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or >> - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries >> >> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider >> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into >> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated >> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity. >> >> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size >> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse >> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price. >> >> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my >> comparison, >> I'd greatly appreciate it. From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri May 3 17:32:37 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 14:32:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just my 2 cents, look at Blue ion from Blue Planet Energy, l have installed new and also switched over from other batteries, been very happy with performance On Fri, May 3, 2019, 2:30 PM Jason Andrade wrote: > > Howie, > I’ve used a few different brands and am currently using the Discover AES, > I have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual stack of XW inverters and > they are working great, > As for another post comment that these companies are looking to be bought > out, Discover is long time battery manufacturer and I feel pretty confident > they will be here to honor the warranty. > If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did on my wood > shop. > Jason Andrade > West Coast Sustainables > > > > > > >> Hi Folks, > >> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job. The client is not a > >> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost > >> effective. > >> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the > >> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he > >> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he > >> was using (making up for past profligate power usage). We will be > using a > >> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire > >> in > >> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup > instead). > >> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either: > >> > >> - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or > >> - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries > >> > >> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the > Schneider > >> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight > into > >> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated > >> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity. > >> > >> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size > >> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated > fuse > >> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price. > >> > >> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my > >> comparison, > >> I'd greatly appreciate it. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Fri May 3 17:47:29 2019 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 21:47:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I love IronE's temp tolerances. and as far as LiPO4 goes AES is certainly neck and neck with the VERY best of LFP. Their BMS is very robust and well designed (And they're made in Canada) Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jerry Shafer Sent: Friday, May 3, 2019 2:32:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries Just my 2 cents, look at Blue ion from Blue Planet Energy, l have installed new and also switched over from other batteries, been very happy with performance On Fri, May 3, 2019, 2:30 PM Jason Andrade > wrote: Howie, I’ve used a few different brands and am currently using the Discover AES, I have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual stack of XW inverters and they are working great, As for another post comment that these companies are looking to be bought out, Discover is long time battery manufacturer and I feel pretty confident they will be here to honor the warranty. If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did on my wood shop. Jason Andrade West Coast Sustainables > > >> Hi Folks, >> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job. The client is not a >> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost >> effective. >> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the >> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he >> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he >> was using (making up for past profligate power usage). We will be using a >> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire >> in >> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead). >> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either: >> >> - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or >> - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries >> >> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider >> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into >> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated >> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity. >> >> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size >> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse >> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price. >> >> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my >> comparison, >> I'd greatly appreciate it. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Fri May 3 18:11:10 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 22:11:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Dave, No problem. I don't know much about Sonnen, but what I do know is that not all GT inverters do the same impedance test. Outback Power did a bunch of testing and they found one inverter larger than 6 kW that would be able to tell that it could impact the voltage coming from the Radian, and so it could tell that it was not truly the grid. So to be ultra safe, Outback decided to make a cap of 6 kW. Now I don't know which brand/model inverter above 6 kW that they found that wouldn't work. I don't know if the impedance of the batteries might make a slight difference, and since the Sonnen will only have Lithium batteries with super short cables, perhaps it might be able to trick that one GT inverter, or perhaps, they are less cautious about making sure it will work with every inverter that falls within the rating, or maybe it is something in the software. I don't know. Perhaps, if Outback were doing all their testing with Lithium batteries and super short cables, perhaps they would have rated the Radian to handle larger GT inverters. Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Friday, May 3, 2019 3:05 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup Kienan, Thanks for the info here. That is really interesting about the 6kw limitation. Outback clearly states that limit, but Sonnen has managed to surpass that with their programming of the Radian. The PV part of the system is already existing, so this will need to be AC coupled entirely. I may just aim to AC couple one of the two 11.4kw inverters though. Another slightly complicating factor is that the array is ground mounted and interconnects near the meter which is roughly 100' from the house. Fortunately there is that old service line that I may be able to use to bring power from the solar all the way back to the house. Cheers, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:54 PM Kienan Maxfield > wrote: Yes, two radians combined can handle one 12 kW grid tied inverter. The 6 kW limitation is not a limitation of how much power the radian can actually handle, it's that the grid tied inverters do an impedance/stability test, and some inverters larger than 6 kW will detect that the inverter is not actually the grid, and the GT inverter will shut down before it even fires up. If it weren't for that, the radian would be able to handle more PV in an AC coupled situation. Is this an all new system? Sometimes, doing a mixture of AC and DC coupling makes the most sense financially if you don't actually need 4 radians worth of backup power. The following setup I'm talking about assumes that you have an external transfer switch, and it's the extreme setup, not necessarily a recommended setup. I just want to demonstrate that you would really only need 2 radians if the required instantaneous backup power needs were low enough. If you do an AC/DC coupled mix, for each Radian, you can actually handle up to 6 kW AC of GT inverter(s), and it can export 7.2 kW AC from the DC coupled side. With a DC/AC ratio of 1.25, that would be 7.5 kW of AC coupled PV and 9 kW of DC coupled PV, so with the right design and external transfer switch, the radian could potentially handle up to 16.25 of PV per inverter. Now you have to tie the AC coupled PV into the load side of the transfer switch (or in the backed up loads panel). This way, if the grid is available, the AC coupled PV is not connected at all to the battery based inverter, but when the power fails, then the PV gets connected to the radian(s) through the transfer switch. Again, I want to stress that it is imperative that with this kind of system, it has to be tied through an automatic external transfer switch, and that you can't have the power flowing to the grid from both the AC and DC coupled PV simultaneously. Hope this is somewhat helpful. Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Dave Tedeyan > Sent: Friday, May 3, 2019 7:43 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] large(ish) AC coupled battery backup Thanks Darryl, Yea, it used to be two separate 200A services. At some point, someone decided to turn one of those panels into a sub and run it all of a single service. Regarding paralleling Radians, I know that the max solar input when AC coupled is only 6kw for an 8kw inverter. When they are paralleled, does that jump up to a single 12kw input, or are you just limited to two 6kw inputs? Cheers, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 9:27 AM Darryl Thayer > wrote: the 2 each 200 Amp panels is to overcome the 42 circuit limit in one panel. must be a big house. This sounds like a whole house backup. you will need a transfer switch much like a whole house generator switch unless your customer needs TOU or some other grid service. For the AC coupled paralleled Radians or XW6848 and have a turn off for one or both of the SB inverters based on battery voltage (SOC). On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 7:58 AM Dave Tedeyan > wrote: Hi All, Does anyone have a good recommendation for an AC coupled energy storage solution for someone who has a 27.6kw array with two SE11400A-US inverters? The output of one of those inverters is more than a Sonnen or Radian can handle (which is what I am most familiar with). I am not sure yet whether this will be a whole home backup or just a subset of their loads, but they have two 200A panels on a single 200A service. Thanks, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri May 3 17:58:52 2019 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 14:58:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries - Li-ion battery warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1EDD5099-3EEC-41CD-AFA4-CDE643E9D1AD@starlightsolar.com> Hello Howie, You should be aware that Discover Li-ion battery does not have adequate protection to prevent damage if charged below freezing. The data sheet (see attachment) shows that you can charge the battery down to -4°F and adds a text warning not to charge below 32°F. "Care should be taken to ensure that the battery’s temperature is > 0°C (32°F) during charging." Charging any Li battery below freezing will permanently damage the battery and create a future fire hazard. This is no problem if you can insure that the cells always stay above freezing. IMO, it makes no sense why any Li battery manufacturer does not fully protect their battery. (I know of others) It is simple to inhibit charge current based on cell temperature. To me this can create a ticking time bomb. Someone unknowingly charges a frozen battery. The danger shows up later when the separator is penetrated by dendrite growth caused by lithium plating of the anode. This happened when they charged a frozen battery. Dendrite growth can lead to internal shorting which can be a fire hazard. It would be wise to install these in a sealed metal enclosure or provide another method to prevent charge current when below freezing. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On May 3, 2019, at 12:45 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Hi Folks, About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job. The client is not a heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost effective. We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he was using (making up for past profligate power usage). We will be using a dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire in a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead). I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either: (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity. Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price. If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my comparison, I'd greatly appreciate it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2019-05-03 at 1.14.56 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 63473 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sat May 4 09:31:07 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 09:31:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Jason. Great videos! Any thoughts on why AES is so much more than some others that seem pretty solid as well? Howie On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 5:30 PM Jason Andrade < jason at westcoastsustainables.com> wrote: > > Howie, > I’ve used a few different brands and am currently using the Discover AES, > I have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual stack of XW inverters and > they are working great, > As for another post comment that these companies are looking to be bought > out, Discover is long time battery manufacturer and I feel pretty confident > they will be here to honor the warranty. > If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did on my wood > shop. > Jason Andrade > West Coast Sustainables > > > > > > >> Hi Folks, > >> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job. The client is not a > >> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost > >> effective. > >> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the > >> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he > >> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he > >> was using (making up for past profligate power usage). We will be > using a > >> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire > >> in > >> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup > instead). > >> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either: > >> > >> - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or > >> - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries > >> > >> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the > Schneider > >> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight > into > >> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated > >> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity. > >> > >> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size > >> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated > fuse > >> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price. > >> > >> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my > >> comparison, > >> I'd greatly appreciate it. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Fri May 3 17:47:17 2019 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 15:47:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit BMS Message-ID: Wrenches - I have an opportunity to take possession of some lightly used 2 kWh Lishen LFP battery packs for next to nothing. What's the catch? No BMS. Anyone have any experience retrofitting a BMS on Li+ batteries? This looks interesting , and this EV BMS is theoretically compatible with PV, but I'd love to compare with something a little more proven. *Regards, * *Andrew Truitt* www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 3 17:42:46 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 03 May 2019 14:42:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buck/boost converter Message-ID: <7b655f168aad93382cc375d138c490fa@127.0.0.1> I am looking for a recommendation for a buck boost converter with an input of arround 42 -62 vdc and an output of 57vdc. I would like something around 50 amps or larger. Is there one? Thx! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat May 4 12:20:59 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 09:20:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator for DC Coupled System Message-ID: Folks, Has anyone had the chance to work with the Polar Power DC generators such as https://www.polarpower.com/wp-content/uploads/8220K-972_0115.pdf ? Anyone aware of good alternatives? Thanks, Mark Frye From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat May 4 12:59:30 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 10:59:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buck/boost converter In-Reply-To: <7b655f168aad93382cc375d138c490fa@127.0.0.1> References: <7b655f168aad93382cc375d138c490fa@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hi Dave, I have used these: https://www.analyticsystems.com/products/voltage-converters/ They aren't cheap, but you can parallel them up to that capacity. Solid for about 3 years so far. On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:15 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > I am looking for a recommendation for a buck boost converter with an input > of arround 42 -62 vdc and an output of 57vdc. > > I would like something around 50 amps or larger. Is there one? Thx! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat May 4 12:41:50 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 10:41:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator for DC Coupled System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A511FCF-A22F-4E02-A87F-216118759EC1@gmail.com> Hi Mark Koehler Model # 6VSG-QS14. Is a dc air cooled. Probably not the quality of the polar water cooled. Jay Peltz power. > On May 4, 2019, at 10:20 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > > Folks, > > Has anyone had the chance to work with the Polar Power DC generators such as https://www.polarpower.com/wp-content/uploads/8220K-972_0115.pdf ? > > Anyone aware of good alternatives? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat May 4 12:44:25 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 10:44:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit BMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E14A3AF-E25E-4CA5-9843-50DDF2B63744@gmail.com> I’ve used the Orion jr on a few Polaris ev and have had a lot of issues. Takes a computer to fix. It doesn’t seem very stable. Jay > On May 3, 2019, at 3:47 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote: > > > Wrenches - I have an opportunity to take possession of some lightly used 2 kWh Lishen LFP battery packs for next to nothing. What's the catch? No BMS. Anyone have any experience retrofitting a BMS on Li+ batteries? This looks interesting, and this EV BMS is theoretically compatible with PV, but I'd love to compare with something a little more proven. > > > > Regards, > > > Andrew Truitt > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > > > > > The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Sat May 4 15:09:58 2019 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 12:09:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit BMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have used Nuvation BMS with Nissan Leaf batteries in a off grid hone. They have been running for 2 years and the cells are staying within 0.02 volts. There are a lot of parameters to set but their tech help is great. They can drive 4 relays based on almost anything you can think of and they also have modbus output. David Katz On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:47 PM Andrew Truitt wrote: > > Wrenches - I have an opportunity to take possession of some lightly used 2 > kWh Lishen LFP battery packs for next to nothing. What's the catch? No > BMS. Anyone have any experience retrofitting a BMS on Li+ batteries? This > looks interesting , and this EV BMS > is theoretically compatible with PV, but I'd > love to compare with something a little more proven. > > > > *Regards, * > > > *Andrew Truitt* > > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > [image: Logo] > > > > The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient > specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of > this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. > If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and > follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not > occur in the future. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 5 15:17:44 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 12:17:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover lead batteries Message-ID: <1C98417A-9F44-4EB4-ABD6-775B0F5D703F@gmail.com> Hi all By chance I had someone ask me about Discover lead batteries OPzS, OPzV I very much like the clear flooded cases. I’m just wondering if anyone has used them or has any thoughts about them. Thx Jay Peltz power. From ntrei at 1scom.net Mon May 6 08:48:22 2019 From: ntrei at 1scom.net (Jim Duncan) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 07:48:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Upgrade vintage Sunny Islands... In-Reply-To: <1C98417A-9F44-4EB4-ABD6-775B0F5D703F@gmail.com> References: <1C98417A-9F44-4EB4-ABD6-775B0F5D703F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <500ab078-7393-39f8-0a15-844a4e0d2c97@1scom.net> I'm needing to replace the master SI from a 2006 installation knowing that it's only a matter of time until the slave gives up the ghost. I want to recommend to the elderly owner that she replace both units at the same time since I already replaced the original 5 SBs with two new SBs less than a year ago and the 640Ah battery two years ago. Being several years retired now I have not kept up with the advances in GT-BB controllers and so need to hear what the options for a split phase 240v replacement this established body of specialists would recommend to keep this system going another decade or more. Thanks Jim Duncan North Texas Renewable Energy From tump at swnl.net Mon May 6 09:16:37 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 09:16:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?MiaSol=C3=A9_thin_film_flexible_solar_pan?= =?utf-8?q?el?= Message-ID: Does anyone have experience with this product, a phone # for these folks. Quite a write up, but I guess Id have to live in China if I wanted to do anything w/ them. No response w/ e mail. TiA Tump > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Mon May 6 10:37:00 2019 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 07:37:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?MiaSol=C3=A9_thin_film_flexible_solar_pa?= =?utf-8?q?nel?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm really curious about this product and company as well - looks like they sell mostly in China? They have a lot of open positions on their website, and a range of products, but??? Thanks! Rebekah Hren Tel: 336.266.8800 On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 6:16 AM Tump wrote: > Does anyone have experience with this product, a phone # for these folks. > Quite a write up, but I guess Id have to live in China if I wanted to do > anything w/ them. No response w/ e mail. TiA Tump > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon May 6 13:26:29 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Mon, 06 May 2019 13:26:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LDK Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, We have an under performing LDK module, installed several years ago. I had read that LDK went under. Is there any 3rd party warranty on these? Thank, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon May 6 22:38:29 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 20:38:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Single Conductor Cable unprotected? Message-ID: <271cc0d2-066a-d1a3-6d97-0046b7b965a4@solarray.com> Greeting esteemed Wrenches; I've recently come across some literature, install pics, and online information from manufacturers saying that its OK to run single conductor cables (THHW, RHH,etc) without conduit from the battery enclosure to the inverters, etc.  I'm pretty sure that's a cardinal No No, and violation of 300.3, but the NEC is actually not as clear as I was hoping. The general interpretation I've always seen: Its either 24" below grade (USE), in conduit below 8 ft, allowed in certain instances exposed over head (above 8 ft), or just for 690: allowed secured under the array if on a roof. I've done "free flying cables" in the third world, and on RVs, but never on NEC compliant work.  Can someone reorient me to the proper interpretation?  or have I just been trying too hard all these years to put single conductor cables in conduit? Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 From atruitt at gmail.com Tue May 7 14:33:22 2019 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 12:33:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit BMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks fellas, great feedback. Nuvation looks pretty solid David. I've heard of issues arising when integrating Li+ BMS system with hybrid solar inverters even when they represent that they are Li+ compatible, such as tripping overcurrent protection in the BMS with milisecond-level surges at inverter start-up. Sounds like that has not been an issue for you with this system? Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 1:10 PM David Katz wrote: > I have used Nuvation BMS with Nissan Leaf batteries in a off grid hone. > They have been running for 2 years and the cells are staying within 0.02 > volts. > There are a lot of parameters to set but their tech help is great. They > can drive 4 relays based on almost anything you can think of and they also > have modbus output. > David Katz > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:47 PM Andrew Truitt wrote: > >> >> Wrenches - I have an opportunity to take possession of some lightly used >> 2 kWh Lishen LFP battery packs for next to nothing. What's the catch? No >> BMS. Anyone have any experience retrofitting a BMS on Li+ batteries? This >> looks interesting , and this EV BMS >> is theoretically compatible with PV, but I'd >> love to compare with something a little more proven. >> >> >> >> *Regards, * >> >> >> *Andrew Truitt* >> >> www.dr.ventures >> d: 202.486.7507 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 >> Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 >> >> [image: Logo] >> >> >> >> The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient >> specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of >> this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. >> If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and >> follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not >> occur in the future. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue May 7 16:17:55 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 16:17:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jerry, thanks for this recommendation. I've been looking at the Blue Ion, but for some reason they off my top tier choices. Have you integrated them with XW battery backup systems? How is the BMS info access? The one thing that I really like about the AES batteries is their integration with the Context comms (at least from what I've read here and elsewhere). Does anyone else have experience with Blue Ion batteries? With XWs? On a separate note, what are the real advantages of using the XW pro vs. the plus? Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Fri, May 3, 2019, 5:32 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Just my 2 cents, look at Blue ion from Blue Planet Energy, l have > installed new and also switched over from other batteries, been very happy > with performance > > On Fri, May 3, 2019, 2:30 PM Jason Andrade < > jason at westcoastsustainables.com> wrote: > >> >> Howie, >> I’ve used a few different brands and am currently using the Discover AES, >> I have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual stack of XW inverters and >> they are working great, >> As for another post comment that these companies are looking to be bought >> out, Discover is long time battery manufacturer and I feel pretty confident >> they will be here to honor the warranty. >> If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did on my wood >> shop. >> Jason Andrade >> West Coast Sustainables >> >> > >> > >> >> Hi Folks, >> >> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job. The client is not a >> >> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost >> >> effective. >> >> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants >> the >> >> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he >> >> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than >> he >> >> was using (making up for past profligate power usage). We will be >> using a >> >> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could >> wire >> >> in >> >> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup >> instead). >> >> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either: >> >> >> >> - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or >> >> - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries >> >> >> >> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the >> Schneider >> >> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight >> into >> >> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated >> >> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity. >> >> >> >> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size >> >> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated >> fuse >> >> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price. >> >> >> >> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my >> >> comparison, >> >> I'd greatly appreciate it. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue May 7 16:45:11 2019 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 14:45:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0bc7dc78-4688-e998-a0b5-aa6d0c6abb94@sindelarsolar.com> Howie, I have now installed three Blue Ion systems (2 x 16 kwh and one 48kwh) and am very pleased with them. It's a complete package with clear instructions, all parts labeled, good technical support, and presents very well to the client when installed. BMS info is accessed online through the included and pre-programmed E-Gauge, which displays both BMS and consumption data. The BMS manages all charge functions; the inverters and controllers are overridden. I have only used them as upgrades to existing off grid systems with Magnum and Outback VFX hardware, but have an XW installation planned for early August. Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 5/7/2019 2:17 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Jerry, thanks for this recommendation. I've been looking at the Blue > Ion, but for some reason they off my top tier choices. Have you > integrated them with XW battery backup systems? How is the BMS info > access? The one thing that I really like about the AES batteries is > their integration with the Context comms (at least from what I've read > here and elsewhere). > Does anyone else have experience with Blue Ion batteries? With XWs? > On a separate note, what are the real advantages of using the XW pro > vs. the plus? > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > On Fri, May 3, 2019, 5:32 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Just my 2 cents, look at Blue ion from Blue Planet Energy, l have > installed new and also switched over from other batteries, been > very happy with performance > > On Fri, May 3, 2019, 2:30 PM Jason Andrade > > wrote: > > > Howie, > I’ve used a few different brands and am currently using the > Discover AES, I have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual > stack of XW inverters and they are working great, > As for another post comment that these companies are looking > to be bought out, Discover is long time battery manufacturer > and I feel pretty confident they will be here to honor the > warranty. > If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did > on my wood shop. > Jason Andrade > West Coast Sustainables > > > > > > >> Hi Folks, > >> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The > client is not a > >> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being > totally cost > >> effective. > >> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now > he wants the > >> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his > use, but he > >> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the > grid than he > >> was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We > will be using a > >> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity > (we could wire > >> in > >> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this > setup instead). > >> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either: > >> > >>   - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or > >>   - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries > >> > >> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly > with the Schneider > >> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides > direct insight into > >> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly > higher rated > >> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity. > >> > >> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp > hour size > >> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an > integrated fuse > >> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price. > >> > >> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my > >> comparison, > >> I'd greatly appreciate it. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Tue May 7 19:08:22 2019 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 16:08:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire sprinkler expert? Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, In light of the IRC allowance for 18" rather than 36” setbacks from the roof ridge - if the residence is sprinklered and the PV covers ≤66% of the planview - does anyone have expertise in fire sprinkler system requirements or a lead on a fire sprinkler system installation consultant they could recommend to me? Thanks! Rebekah Hren -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue May 7 16:27:35 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 07 May 2019 13:27:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The owner of Blue Ion runs XW's or at least I saw pix of him in front of one. They have their own monitor program but it is not compatible with Outback or Schneider comms. That lets them out for my use. Just finished the circuit validation testing of XW pro here. It really was just to make sure it ran normally offgrid. All of the advantages of it over XW+ are grid related. It does have potential to do other things in the future. The power bridge on xwp is more robust than xw+. It also has more memory and the control pcb is faster I think. On Tue, 7 May 2019 16:17:55 -0400, Howie Michaelson wrote: Jerry, thanks for this recommendation. I've been looking at the Blue Ion, but for some reason they off my top tier choices. Have you integrated them with XW battery backup systems? How is the BMS info access? The one thing that I really like about the AES batteries is their integration with the Context comms (at least from what I've read here and elsewhere). Does anyone else have experience with Blue Ion batteries? With XWs? On a separate note, what are the real advantages of using the XW pro vs. the plus? Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Fri, May 3, 2019, 5:32 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: Just my 2 cents, look at Blue ion from Blue Planet Energy, l have installed new and also switched over from other batteries, been very happy with performance On Fri, May 3, 2019, 2:30 PM Jason Andrade wrote: Howie, I've used a few different brands and am currently using the Discover AES, I have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual stack of XW inverters and they are working great, As for another post comment that these companies are looking to be bought out, Discover is long time battery manufacturer and I feel pretty confident they will be here to honor the warranty. If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did on my wood shop. Jason Andrade West Coast Sustainables > > >> Hi Folks, >> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job. The client is not a >> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost >> effective. >> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the >> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he >> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he >> was using (making up for past profligate power usage). We will be using a >> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire >> in >> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead). >> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either: >> >> - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or >> - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries >> >> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider >> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into >> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated >> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity. >> >> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size >> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse >> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price. >> >> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my >> comparison, >> I'd greatly appreciate it. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [3] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [5] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] List rules ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [13] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [14] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [2] mailto:jason at westcoastsustainables.com [3] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [14] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue May 7 20:23:15 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 20:23:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jerry, have you used an XW with the Blue Ion? If so, is there a reason to use a Conext Battery Monitor with the system? In this system, which is grid-tied, there will also be a backup generator (he likes redundancy). What settings would trigger the AGS if there was no Battery Monitor in the system? It seems the very minimal voltage variation of the Li makes using a voltage reading for gen start difficult at best. Howie On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 5:32 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Just my 2 cents, look at Blue ion from Blue Planet Energy, l have > installed new and also switched over from other batteries, been very happy > with performance > > On Fri, May 3, 2019, 2:30 PM Jason Andrade < > jason at westcoastsustainables.com> wrote: > >> >> Howie, >> I’ve used a few different brands and am currently using the Discover AES, >> I have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual stack of XW inverters and >> they are working great, >> As for another post comment that these companies are looking to be bought >> out, Discover is long time battery manufacturer and I feel pretty confident >> they will be here to honor the warranty. >> If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did on my wood >> shop. >> Jason Andrade >> West Coast Sustainables >> >> > >> > >> >> Hi Folks, >> >> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job. The client is not a >> >> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost >> >> effective. >> >> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants >> the >> >> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he >> >> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than >> he >> >> was using (making up for past profligate power usage). We will be >> using a >> >> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could >> wire >> >> in >> >> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup >> instead). >> >> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either: >> >> >> >> - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or >> >> - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries >> >> >> >> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the >> Schneider >> >> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight >> into >> >> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated >> >> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity. >> >> >> >> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size >> >> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated >> fuse >> >> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price. >> >> >> >> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my >> >> comparison, >> >> I'd greatly appreciate it. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 8 10:46:25 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 8 May 2019 07:46:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Internal BMS vs external capacity meter Message-ID: <4EDC7C6F-7054-4641-AAB1-3BE48F7B7316@gmail.com> Hi all, A common question I see and have around lithium is figuring out SOC. I have to assume that the internal BMS is as accurate as one can get. That said, does anyone have real world data that compares accuracy of internal BMS SOC to external SOC meters, such as bogart, Schneider, OB, magnum? The companies that list how to set up a external 3rd party SOC meter have them set up in a way that seems unlikely to be that accurate, especially in PSOC and in low SOC conditions. For most of my clients, they don’t want a computer/phone view only SOC meter. Having a easy to read and understand SOC meter on the wall is important to them. So wondering if folks have answers? Thanks Jay From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed May 8 11:23:14 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 08 May 2019 11:23:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Internal BMS vs external capacity meter Message-ID: <7crigbul7isoan37on7h5qhb.1557328731323@email.lge.com> I've been contemplating installing an inexpensive tablet on the Wall near the off grid systems that only runs the manufacturers view of status or navigable site. With the limited and sometimes non existent integrated system displays these days, it seems to be an answer to local visualization of operation.It would let the customer view the real time data for many parameters, and they are typically more aesthetically pleasing than a trimetric or even the SCP or mate.Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone------ Original message------From: JayDate: Wed, May 8, 2019 11:05 AMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Internal BMS vs external capacity meterHi all, A common question I see and have around lithium is figuring out SOC. I have to assume that the internal BMS is as accurate as one can get. That said, does anyone have real world data that compares accuracy of internal BMS SOC to external SOC meters, such as bogart, Schneider, OB, magnum? The companies that list how to set up a external 3rd party SOC meter have them set up in a way that seems unlikely to be that accurate, especially in PSOC and in low SOC conditions. For most of my clients, they don’t want a computer/phone view only SOC meter. Having a easy to read and understand SOC meter on the wall is important to them. So wondering if folks have answers? Thanks Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed May 8 11:55:23 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 08 May 2019 08:55:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Internal BMS vs external capacity meter In-Reply-To: <7crigbul7isoan37on7h5qhb.1557328731323@email.lge.com> References: <7crigbul7isoan37on7h5qhb.1557328731323@email.lge.com> Message-ID: <34e38c5669a8e50dd592645ae34e032f@127.0.0.1> There has been a push to integrate a "scroll mode" to the Conext Gateway. This could be left on a tablet 24 /7 and the user would just watch the basic screens that the installer can easily program. I hope Schneider will do this. It is similar to the scroll mode in the mppt-60 but would be much better display than alpha numerics. The graphics in the Gateway are very nice and can tell the heath of the system to a non-informed user very quickly. And, no buttons to push if desired. On Wed, 08 May 2019 11:23:14 -0400, Glenn Burt wrote: I've been contemplating installing an inexpensive tablet on the Wall near the off grid systems that only runs the manufacturers view of status or navigable site. With the limited and sometimes non existent integrated system displays these days, it seems to be an answer to local visualization of operation. It would let the customer view the real time data for many parameters, and they are typically more aesthetically pleasing than a trimetric or even the SCP or mate. _Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone_ ------ Original message------ FROM: Jay DATE: Wed, May 8, 2019 11:05 AM TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org; CC: SUBJECT:[RE-wrenches] Internal BMS vs external capacity meter Hi all, A common question I see and have around lithium is figuring out SOC. I have to assume that the internal BMS is as accurate as one can get. That said, does anyone have real world data that compares accuracy of internal BMS SOC to external SOC meters, such as bogart, Schneider, OB, magnum? The companies that list how to set up a external 3rd party SOC meter have them set up in a way that seems unlikely to be that accurate, especially in PSOC and in low SOC conditions. For most of my clients, they don't want a computer/phone view only SOC meter. Having a easy to read and understand SOC meter on the wall is important to them. So wondering if folks have answers? Thanks Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [1] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [2] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [3]/maillist.ht [4]ml List rules ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [7] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [8] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] mailto: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [2] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [3] https://webmail.sti.net/tuxedo/mailto::/www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] http://maillist.ht [5] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [8] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Thu May 9 11:52:51 2019 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 05:52:51 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion - Mix and Matching Layers Message-ID: Wrenches, I am getting more and more call about orphaned Aquion systems that have gone bad. Many of the systems have one or two "layers" that have gone bad. Voltage spikes up to the 14-15V range while charging and cratering to zero if even the tiniest load is put on it (e.g. turning on a charge controller, like I said...tiny). So I do not believe charging that particular "layer" with 6V charger would fix the problem. Has anybody out there swapped out a bad "layer" with a good one and reassembled the stack? Is it even possible? As always thanks for the help. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Thu May 9 13:02:14 2019 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 09:02:14 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IEEE 1547-2018 standard Message-ID: Hello, Mechanix~ I don't want to actually own the standards document mentioned above...but does anyone have a summary for the behaviors that are required? I'm especially interested in the anti-islanding functions for 120/240 split phase 60 hz. I'll bet it's something like a window of acceptable voltage range, another window of acceptable frequency, and xyz milliseconds before the compliant device must disconnect if the power parameters are out of bounds. Ziehl.de builds this type of control in Europe but they haven't been asked about IEEE 1547-2018 before, so they've asked me to describe the functions. Acknowledged that many inverters already comply with this but I need the discrete control unit for something weird. I'll spare you the details. Thanks in advance, the Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu May 9 12:11:41 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 09 May 2019 12:11:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion - Mix and Matching Layers Message-ID: <6i5hkkq0cu3ond9o22bdh4fh.1557418105732@email.lge.com> We got such a black eye from the Aquions we installed that we had to replace entire banks to regain customer confidence and prevent bad word of mouth talk about the company.They were a big loss both to our reputation and financial health.I recommend discussing the issues and replacing the entire bank.Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone------ Original message------From: Lou RussoDate: Thu, May 9, 2019 11:53 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Aquion - Mix and Matching LayersWrenches,I am getting more and more call about orphaned Aquion systems that have gone bad. Many of the systems have one or two "layers" that have gone bad. Voltage spikes up to the 14-15V range while charging and cratering to zero if even the tiniest load is put on it (e.g. turning on a charge controller, like I said...tiny). So I do not believe charging that particular "layer" with 6V charger would fix the problem. Has anybody out there swapped out a bad "layer" with a good one and reassembled the stack? Is it even possible? As always thanks for the help. Aloha,Lou Russolou at spreesolarsystems.com808 345 6762Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu May 9 14:31:09 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 12:31:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Internal BMS vs external capacity meter In-Reply-To: <4EDC7C6F-7054-4641-AAB1-3BE48F7B7316@gmail.com> References: <4EDC7C6F-7054-4641-AAB1-3BE48F7B7316@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Regarding the BMS of various manufactures compared to the inverter manufactuers SOC calcs, my only experience is with a 4 stack Blue Ion System on a Sunny Island system. Its not possible to tweak the Sunny Island SOC system at all except by changing battery type (I'm not totally sure of this). We have found that the Sunny Island thinks the batteries are 15-20% more charged than the integrated eGauge is reporting at the lower SOC states. I find it strange that the SOC algorithm is that far off, but I suspect that is from the very stiff voltage profile of the Lithium. Overall, not a big deal, we have figured out where to set our generator start up. The Blue Ion app is pretty easy for clients to use and see SOC, but it does require smart phone and at least a local network and Wifi. The Blue Ion eGauge does have an SOC readout. Thanks On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 9:20 AM Jay wrote: > Hi all, > > A common question I see and have around lithium is figuring out SOC. > > I have to assume that the internal BMS is as accurate as one can get. > That said, does anyone have real world data that compares accuracy of > internal BMS SOC to external SOC meters, such as bogart, Schneider, OB, > magnum? > > The companies that list how to set up a external 3rd party SOC meter have > them set up in a way that seems unlikely to be that accurate, especially in > PSOC and in low SOC conditions. > > For most of my clients, they don’t want a computer/phone view only SOC > meter. > Having a easy to read and understand SOC meter on the wall is important to > them. > > So wondering if folks have answers? > > Thanks > Jay > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sarahmray at gmail.com Thu May 9 14:50:00 2019 From: sarahmray at gmail.com (Sarah Ray) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 12:50:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 225A Meter Main with Pass Through Lugs Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Does anyone have a recommendation for a meter main with a 225A bus and pass through lugs? Eaton and SquareD make meter mains with a 225A bus, but no pass-through lugs, so they don't work well for most retrofit applications. We would like to connect our inverter output to a feeder that is fed by the pass through lugs in the existing 200A meter main (which is located at another building.) The inverter output has a 60A OCPD, so the 200A meter main bus is not sufficient. Any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated! Thank you, Sarah Ray OnSite Energy, Inc. 619 N Church Ave, Suite 4 Bozeman, MT 59715 Cell: (406) 579-6512 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu May 9 15:06:35 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 15:06:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 225A Meter Main with Pass Through Lugs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Calc loads and see if you can replace the main with a 175A breaker if it exists, or even 150A. This main breaker downsizing has been a go-to exercise for us for existing meter-mains. It's frustrating being limited to 40A on the load side. That doesn't even get to 10kWdc with Enphase IQ7+, which is becoming a pretty small system these days around here. I tell every home builder I see to avoid meter-main combos but they keep putting them in. Sadly our utility accepts NONE of the "solar ready" panels on the market. That's another snag we run into. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 2:50 PM Sarah Ray wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Does anyone have a recommendation for a meter main with a 225A bus and > pass through lugs? Eaton and SquareD make meter mains with a 225A bus, but > no pass-through lugs, so they don't work well for most retrofit > applications. > > We would like to connect our inverter output to a feeder that is fed by > the pass through lugs in the existing 200A meter main (which is located at > another building.) The inverter output has a 60A OCPD, so the 200A meter > main bus is not sufficient. > > Any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated! > > Thank you, > > Sarah Ray > > OnSite Energy, Inc. > 619 N Church Ave, Suite 4 > Bozeman, MT 59715 > Cell: (406) 579-6512 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu May 9 15:20:38 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 15:20:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 225A Meter Main with Pass Through Lugs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I should note that if you are on NEC 2014 the 60 OCPD is not the correct figure to use in the 120% rule. It would be 125% of the Inverter Output Circuit rated current. It's probably a moot point in this case, but it is an important distinction. On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 3:06 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Calc loads and see if you can replace the main with a 175A breaker if it > exists, or even 150A. This main breaker downsizing has been a go-to > exercise for us for existing meter-mains. It's frustrating being limited to > 40A on the load side. That doesn't even get to 10kWdc with Enphase IQ7+, > which is becoming a pretty small system these days around here. I tell > every home builder I see to avoid meter-main combos but they keep putting > them in. > > Sadly our utility accepts NONE of the "solar ready" panels on the market. > That's another snag we run into. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 2:50 PM Sarah Ray wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> Does anyone have a recommendation for a meter main with a 225A bus and >> pass through lugs? Eaton and SquareD make meter mains with a 225A bus, but >> no pass-through lugs, so they don't work well for most retrofit >> applications. >> >> We would like to connect our inverter output to a feeder that is fed by >> the pass through lugs in the existing 200A meter main (which is located at >> another building.) The inverter output has a 60A OCPD, so the 200A meter >> main bus is not sufficient. >> >> Any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated! >> >> Thank you, >> >> Sarah Ray >> >> OnSite Energy, Inc. >> 619 N Church Ave, Suite 4 >> Bozeman, MT 59715 >> Cell: (406) 579-6512 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu May 9 15:35:50 2019 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 12:35:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion - Mix and Matching Layers In-Reply-To: <6i5hkkq0cu3ond9o22bdh4fh.1557418105732@email.lge.com> References: <6i5hkkq0cu3ond9o22bdh4fh.1557418105732@email.lge.com> Message-ID: As Aquion said, loosening the main nut will destroy the battery. I can vouch for that as well, not my doing, but I could not recover the batteries where that had been done. I tightened the nuts and got just about one cycle before they were gone. I suspect that the temperature cycling of the batteries enhanced creep of the case and active materials to the point where there was no longer adequate compression, and so they are failing. It could be that if they had mfg them with steel cases and permanent layer level compression they might have been longer lived. One thing about being able to take the layers apart is that they are much easier to move around that way. Each layer is only about 30 lbs. Then you can find creative uses for the aluminum bases and high strength threaded rod from them. If you need an MSDS to show to the disposal site, contact me at AEE Solar. At our Hazo House locally here, they took a brief look at the MSDS and said, sure bring them in, no problem. Worth a try. Brad On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 10:38 AM Glenn Burt wrote: > We got such a black eye from the Aquions we installed that we had to > replace entire banks to regain customer confidence and prevent bad word of > mouth talk about the company. > They were a big loss both to our reputation and financial health. > I recommend discussing the issues and replacing the entire bank. > > *Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone* > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Lou Russo > *Date: *Thu, May 9, 2019 11:53 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Aquion - Mix and Matching Layers > > Wrenches, > > I am getting more and more call about orphaned Aquion systems that have > gone bad. Many of the systems have one or two "layers" that have gone bad. > Voltage spikes up to the 14-15V range while charging and cratering to zero > if even the tiniest load is put on it (e.g. turning on a charge controller, > like I said...tiny). So I do not believe charging that particular "layer" > with 6V charger would fix the problem. > > Has anybody out there swapped out a bad "layer" with a good one and > reassembled the stack? Is it even possible? > > As always thanks for the help. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 <808%20345%0D%20%206762> > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sarahmray at gmail.com Thu May 9 15:43:52 2019 From: sarahmray at gmail.com (Sarah Ray) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 13:43:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 225A Meter Main with Pass Through Lugs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, good point about the 120% rule - thanks Jason. Unfortunately the existing meter main isn't one where we can downgrade the main breaker. I did find this lug kit that we can add to a 225A Eaton meter main which might do the trick. https://www.platt.com/platt-electric-supply/Load-Center-Accessories-Sub-Feed-Lug-Blocks/Eaton/BRS225/product.aspx?zpid=270025 Sarah On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 1:20 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I should note that if you are on NEC 2014 the 60 OCPD is not the correct > figure to use in the 120% rule. It would be 125% of the Inverter Output > Circuit rated current. > > It's probably a moot point in this case, but it is an important > distinction. > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 3:06 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Calc loads and see if you can replace the main with a 175A breaker if it >> exists, or even 150A. This main breaker downsizing has been a go-to >> exercise for us for existing meter-mains. It's frustrating being limited to >> 40A on the load side. That doesn't even get to 10kWdc with Enphase IQ7+, >> which is becoming a pretty small system these days around here. I tell >> every home builder I see to avoid meter-main combos but they keep putting >> them in. >> >> Sadly our utility accepts NONE of the "solar ready" panels on the market. >> That's another snag we run into. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 2:50 PM Sarah Ray wrote: >> >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> Does anyone have a recommendation for a meter main with a 225A bus and >>> pass through lugs? Eaton and SquareD make meter mains with a 225A bus, but >>> no pass-through lugs, so they don't work well for most retrofit >>> applications. >>> >>> We would like to connect our inverter output to a feeder that is fed by >>> the pass through lugs in the existing 200A meter main (which is located at >>> another building.) The inverter output has a 60A OCPD, so the 200A meter >>> main bus is not sufficient. >>> >>> Any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated! >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Sarah Ray >>> >>> OnSite Energy, Inc. >>> 619 N Church Ave, Suite 4 >>> Bozeman, MT 59715 >>> Cell: (406) 579-6512 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tom at solar-biz.com Fri May 10 13:06:08 2019 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 17:06:08 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion - Mix and Matching Layers In-Reply-To: References: <6i5hkkq0cu3ond9o22bdh4fh.1557418105732@email.lge.com> Message-ID: Hi All We have had similar disasters with the Aquions going bad… same problems, some installers have loosened the nut with ruinous results but, bad trays in the stack are common as well. Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [TSBLOGODPIx500x200] tom at solar-biz.com MAIN TOLL FREE: 888-826-0939 DIRECT: 888-503-6772 International: 001-575-539-2111 PANAMA: 507-836-5588 X 122 FAX: 520-844-8442 www.thesolarbiz.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bradley Bassett Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 2:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion - Mix and Matching Layers As Aquion said, loosening the main nut will destroy the battery. I can vouch for that as well, not my doing, but I could not recover the batteries where that had been done. I tightened the nuts and got just about one cycle before they were gone. I suspect that the temperature cycling of the batteries enhanced creep of the case and active materials to the point where there was no longer adequate compression, and so they are failing. It could be that if they had mfg them with steel cases and permanent layer level compression they might have been longer lived. One thing about being able to take the layers apart is that they are much easier to move around that way. Each layer is only about 30 lbs. Then you can find creative uses for the aluminum bases and high strength threaded rod from them. If you need an MSDS to show to the disposal site, contact me at AEE Solar. At our Hazo House locally here, they took a brief look at the MSDS and said, sure bring them in, no problem. Worth a try. Brad On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 10:38 AM Glenn Burt > wrote: We got such a black eye from the Aquions we installed that we had to replace entire banks to regain customer confidence and prevent bad word of mouth talk about the company. They were a big loss both to our reputation and financial health. I recommend discussing the issues and replacing the entire bank. Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone ------ Original message------ From: Lou Russo Date: Thu, May 9, 2019 11:53 AM To: RE-wrenches; Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Aquion - Mix and Matching Layers Wrenches, I am getting more and more call about orphaned Aquion systems that have gone bad. Many of the systems have one or two "layers" that have gone bad. Voltage spikes up to the 14-15V range while charging and cratering to zero if even the tiniest load is put on it (e.g. turning on a charge controller, like I said...tiny). So I do not believe charging that particular "layer" with 6V charger would fix the problem. Has anybody out there swapped out a bad "layer" with a good one and reassembled the stack? Is it even possible? As always thanks for the help. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6229 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Fri May 10 16:41:30 2019 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 16:41:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar contractor insurance cancellation Message-ID: <010901d50770$c0309a80$4091cf80$@icloud.com> Hi Folks, I got a call from my ins. agent today that my insurer, Liberty Mutual, will not renew my policy: RE: "The following program is no longer being offered: solar contracting coverage." Was confirmed via certified mail. My agent says it's an across-the-board policy for Liberty. Anyone else heard of this by Liberty or any other insurer?? Hopefully this is not an industry trend.. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 28th Anniversary 1991-2019 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri May 10 16:51:14 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 16:51:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar contractor insurance cancellation In-Reply-To: <010901d50770$c0309a80$4091cf80$@icloud.com> References: <010901d50770$c0309a80$4091cf80$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <15F76951-88DB-48FD-83F2-68DF678587AE@swnl.net> Yep your going to look into Quaker mutual. FMI contact me off list. T > On May 10, 2019, at 4:41 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > I got a call from my ins. agent today that my insurer, Liberty Mutual, will not renew my policy: RE: “The following program is no longer being offered: solar contracting coverage.” Was confirmed via certified mail. My agent says it’s an across-the-board policy for Liberty. > Anyone else heard of this by Liberty or any other insurer?? Hopefully this is not an industry trend…… > > Kirk Herander > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 28th Anniversary 1991-2019 > www.vermontsolarnow.com > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > 802.863.1202 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri May 10 18:44:32 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 15:44:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery recombination caps Message-ID: HI All, I”m wondering what options people are using for reducing watering of FLA batteries. What I’ve used and know about are: Hydro caps ( have used) SBS bi-directional recombination caps ( haven’t used but in the spec sheets only good up to 2.4vpc) Water miser caps ( have used) Any other options folks are using out there? thanks jay peltz power From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sat May 11 08:05:23 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 08:05:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar contractor insurance cancellation In-Reply-To: <010901d50770$c0309a80$4091cf80$@icloud.com> References: <010901d50770$c0309a80$4091cf80$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <7753a8ec-35d2-f002-6bdf-c85d3f76bc7a@entech-engineering.com> That happened to me too. All solar policies were cancelled. Brown and=20 Brown of NJ advertises through NABCEP and I found them to be a good=20 company to work with. Chris On 5/10/2019 4:41 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > I got a call from my ins. agent today that my insurer, Liberty Mutual,=20 > will not renew my policy: RE: =E2=80=9CThe following program is no longer= =20 > being offered: solar contracting coverage.=E2=80=9D Was confirmed via=20 > certified mail. My agent says it=E2=80=99s an across-the-board policy for= Liberty. > > Anyone else heard of this by Liberty or any other insurer?? Hopefully=20 > this is not an industry trend=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6 > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > */Celebrating our 28^th Anniversary 1991-2019/* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com=20 > * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEP^TM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun May 12 19:25:37 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 19:25:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion - Mix and Matching Layers In-Reply-To: References: <6i5hkkq0cu3ond9o22bdh4fh.1557418105732@email.lge.com> Message-ID: <20190512232540.88F8C124EC5@relay.mailchannels.net> How likely / certain is it that Aquions will have an early failure? Can we expect the banks to go down fairly soon? Thanks, Drake At 03:35 PM 5/9/2019, you wrote: >As Aquion said, loosening the main nut will >destroy the battery. I can vouch for that as >well, not my doing, but I could not recover the >batteries where that had been done. I tightened >the nuts and got just about one cycle before they were gone. > >I suspect that the temperature cycling of the >batteries enhanced creep of the case and active >materials to the point where there was no longer >adequate compression, and so they are failing. >It could be that if they had mfg them with steel >cases and permanent layer level compression they might have been longer lived. > >One thing about being able to take the layers >apart is that they are much easier to move >around that way. Each layer is only about 30 >lbs. Then you can find creative uses for the >aluminum bases and high strength threaded rod from them. > >If you need an MSDS to show to the disposal >site, contact me at AEE Solar. At our Hazo House >locally here, they took a brief look at the MSDS >and said, sure bring them in, no problem. Worth a try. > >Brad > > > >On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 10:38 AM Glenn Burt ><Glenn.burt at glbcc.com> wrote: >We got such a black eye from the Aquions we >installed that we had to replace entire banks to >regain customer confidence and prevent bad word >of mouth talk about the company. >They were a big loss both to our reputation and financial health. >I recommend discussing the issues and replacing the entire bank. > >Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone > >------ Original message------ >From: Lou Russo >Date: Thu, May 9, 2019 11:53 AM >To: RE-wrenches; >Cc: >Subject:[RE-wrenches] Aquion - Mix and Matching Layers > >Wrenches, > >I am getting more and more call about orphaned >Aquion systems that have gone bad. Many of the >systems have one or two "layers" that have gone >bad. Voltage spikes up to the 14-15V range while >charging and cratering to zero if even the >tiniest load is put on it (e.g. turning on a >charge controller, like I said...tiny). So I do >not believe charging that particular "layer" >with 6V charger would fix the problem. > >Has anybody out there swapped out a bad "layer" >with a good one and reassembled the stack? Is it even possible? > >As always thanks for the help. > >Aloha, > >Lou Russo >lou at spreesolarsystems.com >808 345 6762 >Spree Solar Systems LLC >CT-34322 > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon May 13 23:00:11 2019 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 23:00:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar contractor insurance cancellation In-Reply-To: <7753a8ec-35d2-f002-6bdf-c85d3f76bc7a@entech-engineering.com> References: <010901d50770$c0309a80$4091cf80$@icloud.com> <7753a8ec-35d2-f002-6bdf-c85d3f76bc7a@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Try Erie Christopher On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 8:05 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > That happened to me too. All solar policies were cancelled. Brown and > Brown of NJ advertises through NABCEP and I found them to be a good company > to work with. Chris > On 5/10/2019 4:41 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > > > I got a call from my ins. agent today that my insurer, Liberty Mutual, > will not renew my policy: RE: “The following program is no longer being > offered: solar contracting coverage.” Was confirmed via certified mail. My > agent says it’s an across-the-board policy for Liberty. > > Anyone else heard of this by Liberty or any other insurer?? Hopefully this > is not an industry trend…… > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 28th Anniversary 1991-2019* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com > * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Thu May 16 15:00:24 2019 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 19:00:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Easy Foot substitute References: <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338@mail.yahoo.com> He folks, We have used DPW Easy Feet on roof installs for years, but there is a multi-week (2-4) backlog at the factory and none of our local distributors has any stock. Has anyone found a comparable substitute? The Roof-Tech rt mini looks like it might work. https://roof-tech.us/RT%20MINI%20Brochure.pdf  Does anyone have experience with the product? Any other company that would work on a non-rafter roof? Or does anyone know of a stash of 40 or more Easy Feet that they could contact us off list? regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Thu May 16 15:16:46 2019 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 13:16:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Easy Foot substitute In-Reply-To: <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Any other company that would work on a non-rafter roof? > I recommend the Zilla Double Stud XL Flashing Assembly https://zillarac.com/Zilla/ID/156/categoryId/5/Double-Stud-XL-Flashing-Assembly - Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Thu May 16 19:15:42 2019 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland Shackelford) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 13:15:42 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Unknown Ground Mounted Racking Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, Can anyone distinguish what brand of racking the attached pictures are from? We are looking to upgrade the panels and need to extend the rack. Mahalo, Roland Shackelford NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #091209-162 President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Unknown_rack_2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 620524 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Unknown_rack_1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 418134 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Thu May 16 19:18:40 2019 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 19:18:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Easy Foot substitute In-Reply-To: References: <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I like S-5’s Solar Foot. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On May 16, 2019, at 3:16 PM, Sam Haraldson wrote: > >> Any other company that would work on a non-rafter roof? > > I recommend the Zilla Double Stud XL Flashing Assembly > > https://zillarac.com/Zilla/ID/156/categoryId/5/Double-Stud-XL-Flashing-Assembly > > - Sam > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.png Type: image/png Size: 329543 bytes Desc: not available URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Fri May 17 08:40:01 2019 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 08:40:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 12v solar direct greenhouse fan Message-ID: <5cdeaba0.1c69fb81.92b5c.5221@mx.google.com> I have an old off grid customer looking for a greenhouse fan, about 20”, to run direct off an old 48w 12v module. Backwoods is listing DC Super Fans that say battery based and not intended to operate direct from solar module. Where can we get a fan to fit the bill for PV direct operation? Thanks, Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Fri May 17 08:43:52 2019 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 08:43:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 12v solar direct greenhouse fan In-Reply-To: <5cdeaba0.1c69fb81.92b5c.5221@mx.google.com> References: <5cdeaba0.1c69fb81.92b5c.5221@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Maybe try Snap Fan Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 8:40 AM David Palumbo wrote: > I have an old off grid customer looking for a greenhouse fan, about 20”, > to run direct off an old 48w 12v module. > > > > Backwoods is listing DC Super Fans that say battery based and not intended > to operate direct from solar module. > > > > Where can we get a fan to fit the bill for PV direct operation? > > > > Thanks, > > Dave Palumbo > > Hyde Park, VT > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Fri May 17 08:56:09 2019 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 08:56:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 12v solar direct greenhouse fan In-Reply-To: References: <5cdeaba0.1c69fb81.92b5c.5221@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5cdeaf68.1c69fb81.4b50.17fa@mx.google.com> Snap Fan looks great. Thanks Adam Katzman! From: AE Solar Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 8:44 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 12v solar direct greenhouse fan Maybe try Snap Fan  Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 8:40 AM David Palumbo wrote: I have an old off grid customer looking for a greenhouse fan, about 20”, to run direct off an old 48w 12v module.   Backwoods is listing DC Super Fans that say battery based and not intended to operate direct from solar module.   Where can we get a fan to fit the bill for PV direct operation?   Thanks, Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT   Sent from Mail for Windows 10   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Fri May 17 09:38:11 2019 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 06:38:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 12v solar direct greenhouse fan In-Reply-To: <5cdeaba0.1c69fb81.92b5c.5221@mx.google.com> References: <5cdeaba0.1c69fb81.92b5c.5221@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Snap Fan makes great ones. Snap-fan.com David Katz On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 5:40 AM David Palumbo wrote: > I have an old off grid customer looking for a greenhouse fan, about 20”, > to run direct off an old 48w 12v module. > > > > Backwoods is listing DC Super Fans that say battery based and not intended > to operate direct from solar module. > > > > Where can we get a fan to fit the bill for PV direct operation? > > > > Thanks, > > Dave Palumbo > > Hyde Park, VT > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri May 17 10:58:37 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 07:58:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 12v solar direct greenhouse fan In-Reply-To: References: <5cdeaba0.1c69fb81.92b5c.5221@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Wrenches There are a variety of attic fans that are PV direct and work well modified for green house gables On Fri, May 17, 2019, 6:38 AM David Katz wrote: > Snap Fan makes great ones. Snap-fan.com > David Katz > > On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 5:40 AM David Palumbo > wrote: > >> I have an old off grid customer looking for a greenhouse fan, about 20”, >> to run direct off an old 48w 12v module. >> >> >> >> Backwoods is listing DC Super Fans that say battery based and not >> intended to operate direct from solar module. >> >> >> >> Where can we get a fan to fit the bill for PV direct operation? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Dave Palumbo >> >> Hyde Park, VT >> >> >> >> Sent from Mail for >> Windows 10 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu May 16 19:41:31 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 16:41:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating lithium in cold weather In-Reply-To: References: <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: HI All, I”m wondering if anyone has suggestions about how to charge a Lithium battery in RV or in this case Polarius in sub zero temps. Are there batteries that have heaters built in, or is it still a custom design issue to build a heating system? ( insulation and heaters) Thanks, jay peltz power From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Fri May 17 11:30:57 2019 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 08:30:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating lithium in cold weather In-Reply-To: References: <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Try heated seed mats. They seem to work pretty well if you have an available power source nearby. https://www.amazon.com/MT10004-Waterproof-Certified-Hydroponic-Germination/dp/B0044U4F5I On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 8:26 AM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I”m wondering if anyone has suggestions about how to charge a Lithium > battery in RV or in this case Polarius in sub zero temps. > > Are there batteries that have heaters built in, or is it still a custom > design issue to build a heating system? > ( insulation and heaters) > > Thanks, > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri May 17 11:51:50 2019 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 08:51:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating lithium in cold weather In-Reply-To: References: <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9DD520A7-B6E8-403E-B80B-971BC6ED86A0@starlightsolar.com> Hi Jay, Within the next couple of weeks LiFeBlue Battery will be shipping the new Low temperature models. They have a heater built in and if the cells are below 32°F, charge current is diverted to heat the cells above freezing before transferring full charge current. All handled by the internal BMS. You can build a box and add a silicone type heater with a temp controller. I’ve bought items like that on eBay for about $25. See photo. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On May 16, 2019, at 4:41 PM, jay wrote: HI All, I”m wondering if anyone has suggestions about how to charge a Lithium battery in RV or in this case Polarius in sub zero temps. Are there batteries that have heaters built in, or is it still a custom design issue to build a heating system? ( insulation and heaters) Thanks, jay peltz power -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Silicone heater and controller.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18404 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri May 17 11:58:42 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 08:58:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating lithium in cold weather In-Reply-To: References: <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jay,             I would think this might be pretty risky....I think of the difficulty in being sure all the cells were uniformly warmed.  I guess if they were in an enclosure and the ambient in there was held at some determined temp for ? (many) hours then one could assume? all the cells were close in temp and safe to charge.  Of course there would have to be some sort of regulation involved (oops I left the heater on in the battery enclosure last week!) Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 5/16/2019 4:41 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I”m wondering if anyone has suggestions about how to charge a Lithium battery in RV or in this case Polarius in sub zero temps. > > Are there batteries that have heaters built in, or is it still a custom design issue to build a heating system? > ( insulation and heaters) > > Thanks, > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri May 17 12:19:01 2019 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 10:19:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating lithium in cold weather In-Reply-To: References: <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <69a6daf6-bca5-e90b-b681-6c2a09dc866c@sindelarsolar.com> Jay, I faced this issue recently with a Blue Ion system. Blue Planet tech support sent me a clear description of the solution worked out by a Utah installer, Gardner Energy in West Haven, that was brilliant. It used an 18W and a 24W reptile terrarium heater placed between layers of batteries (pet store), a $15 Thermo-Cube thermostatically controlled plug-in outlet (hardware or farm supply), and a roll of Reflectix mylar-coated bubble-wrap insulation (Home Depot) that lined the steel battery enclosure on its interior. Allan On 5/16/2019 5:41 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > I”m wondering if anyone has suggestions about how to charge a Lithium battery in RV or in this case Polarius in sub zero temps. > Are there batteries that have heaters built in, or is it still a custom design issue to build a heating system? > ( insulation and heaters) > Thanks, > jay > peltz power -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 17 12:06:04 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 09:06:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating lithium in cold weather In-Reply-To: References: <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The risk may be worth it if the battery is inexpensive. I have a client who has a neighbor who had to leave his home in Canada for a funeral. Things snowballed and the road washed out. He could not get home for a week and lost his well over 10K LFP battery. The battery logged the temp and warranty was void. I would want to see data over time before I used a battery that depended on the BMS for temp control. The other thing would be a company large enough to handle warranty if things got bad. The successful offgrid home people in cold climates are instructed by me to turn off the battery when they leave home and use a LA battery while they are gone. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 17 May 2019 08:58:42 -0700, frenergy wrote: > Jay, > >             I would think this might be pretty risky....I think of the > difficulty in being sure all the cells were uniformly warmed.  I guess > if they were in an enclosure and the ambient in there was held at some > determined temp for ? (many) hours then one could assume? all the cells > were close in temp and safe to charge.  Of course there would have to be > some sort of regulation involved (oops I left the heater on in the > battery enclosure last week!) > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > On 5/16/2019 4:41 PM, jay wrote: >> HI All, >> >> I”m wondering if anyone has suggestions about how to charge a Lithium >> battery in RV or in this case Polarius in sub zero temps. >> >> Are there batteries that have heaters built in, or is it still a custom >> design issue to build a heating system? >> ( insulation and heaters) >> >> Thanks, >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk Fri May 17 13:43:58 2019 From: hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk (Hugh Piggott) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 18:43:58 +0100 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating lithium in cold weather In-Reply-To: References: <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am trying out an insulated box and small heater. It doesn't get very cold in West Coast scotland so 120W seems useful. Also automatic vents used on greenhouses, to open up the sealed box. On Fri 17 May 2019, 18:09 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar, wrote: > The risk may be worth it if the battery is inexpensive. > > I have a client who has a neighbor who had to leave his home in Canada > for a funeral. Things snowballed and the road washed out. He could not get > home for a week and lost his well over 10K LFP battery. The battery logged > the temp and warranty was void. > > I would want to see data over time before I used a battery that depended > on the BMS for temp control. The other thing would be a company large > enough to handle warranty if things got bad. > > The successful offgrid home people in cold climates are instructed by me > to turn off the battery when they leave home and use a LA battery while > they are gone. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Fri, 17 May 2019 08:58:42 -0700, frenergy wrote: > > Jay, > > > > I would think this might be pretty risky....I think of the > > difficulty in being sure all the cells were uniformly warmed. I guess > > if they were in an enclosure and the ambient in there was held at some > > determined temp for ? (many) hours then one could assume? all the cells > > were close in temp and safe to charge. Of course there would have to be > > > some sort of regulation involved (oops I left the heater on in the > > battery enclosure last week!) > > > > Bill > > > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, Owner > > 4291 Nelson St. > > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > > 530.284.7849 > > CA Lic 874049 > > www.frenergy.net > > > > On 5/16/2019 4:41 PM, jay wrote: > >> HI All, > >> > >> I”m wondering if anyone has suggestions about how to charge a Lithium > >> battery in RV or in this case Polarius in sub zero temps. > >> > >> Are there batteries that have heaters built in, or is it still a custom > >> design issue to build a heating system? > >> ( insulation and heaters) > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> jay > >> > >> peltz power > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > -- > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Fri May 17 19:29:13 2019 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 17:29:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating lithium in cold weather Message-ID: Hello, Jay & All~ Anytime the battery mfr. has a solution that is pre-baked into their product--that's +1 for avoiding later warranty disputes, etc. I'm glad to learn that LifeBlue is doing a "divert the charge DC method" for cold lithiums, which seems quite logical to me. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ReLion brand lithium does the same "divert the charge until the battery warms" method in their LT (low temperature) products such as this: https://relionbattery.com/products/lithium/rb100-lt but their LT's are 12v only & no bigger than 100 ah so far. List readers who'd like to connect 12v lithium monoblocs in series for a higher voltage pack...should not try that without mfr. approval. Series connection is old hat for lead acid monoblocs but tried & true assumptions may no longer hold. ReLion has UL certification across the board, methinks--check to make sure. ReLion has a "minimum advertised price" policy which should help the skilled tradespeople on this List. Another "cold friendly" feature with ReLion is: So long as the charging amperage is below 10% of the battery's rated ampacity (slower than a ten hour rate of charge), ReLion doesn't care how cold their normal lithiums are during recharge. Please double check that point with ReLion technical before, um, banking on it but that was their official corporate position in 2018. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I know at least one other mfr that offers their own baked in heating option (although it's not a "divert charge energy until the battery warms" method). This mfr. is Lithionics based in FL. Here's a document about their heat setup: https://lithionicsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Lithionics-Battery-Heater-Kit-Option.pdf Note they can accommodate various pack voltages with this solution & they do a fair to good job of scaling bigger if that's needed. Lithionics architecture requires their BMS "battery management system" but it's also charger agnostic & doesn't require communication to the charger. If your capacity needs scale beyond one of their BMS units (and if I understood their explanation correctly) each BMS calculates its state of charge independent of the others even though the cells are ganged up as a bigger battery. Maybe that's a drawback, esp if one wants to view & use that data for user fuel gauge purposes. I hope this will be helpful info for the group. The Wrench List is the Bomb~ Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri May 17 15:32:50 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 12:32:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating lithium in cold weather In-Reply-To: <69a6daf6-bca5-e90b-b681-6c2a09dc866c@sindelarsolar.com> References: <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1602781787.1737548.1558033224338@mail.yahoo.com> <69a6daf6-bca5-e90b-b681-6c2a09dc866c@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <9B60CA42-01F2-42D0-BF1C-5F262F6F85E5@gmail.com> HI Allan and all, I”m with Dave when it comes to designing and cobbling together a fix for an incredibly expensive piece of equipment. Sure I can get it to work, but who’s fault is it when it doesn’t? And it does bring up the interesting point about where are the temp sensors located? Would seem you’d need a few to be able to measure temp both in the middle and outside. I can certainly see the situation that the middle/inside was much colder than the outside. If the temp sensor was on the outside then it could have a false reading potentially leading to damage. I very much like the LiFiBlue which will have it built in. Hope fully others will follow this route and give us an option for cold temps. Where the question for this thread came from is a polaris lead to lithium conversion and in a place that gets really cold and not in a heated garage. I’ve done a few where I live but it doesn’t really get cold enough for it to be an issue. Great stuff jay > On May 17, 2019, at 9:19 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Jay, > > I faced this issue recently with a Blue Ion system. Blue Planet tech support sent me a clear description of the solution worked out by a Utah installer, Gardner Energy in West Haven, that was brilliant. It used an 18W and a 24W reptile terrarium heater placed between layers of batteries (pet store), a $15 Thermo-Cube thermostatically controlled plug-in outlet (hardware or farm supply), and a roll of Reflectix mylar-coated bubble-wrap insulation (Home Depot) that lined the steel battery enclosure on its interior. > > Allan > > On 5/16/2019 5:41 PM, jay wrote: >> HI All, >> I”m wondering if anyone has suggestions about how to charge a Lithium battery in RV or in this case Polarius in sub zero temps. >> Are there batteries that have heaters built in, or is it still a custom design issue to build a heating system? >> ( insulation and heaters) >> Thanks, >> jay >> peltz power > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat May 18 14:37:52 2019 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 12:37:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Query re Blue Ion smell Message-ID: <685583a3-377d-3421-0be4-8414068d5d2e@sindelarsolar.com> Wrenches, My first (and largest at 48 kW-hr) Blue Ion LiFP installation has been in operation for about 9 months. The client is happy with the batteries' performance. However, he recently sent me the following question: Have you heard anything about the Blue Ion batteries generating an odor?  We have had an odor in the barn ever since the batteries went in.  It is a subtle, slightly rotten smell.  We have searched for dead mice and other such things and have found nothing.  The correlation with the battery installation is starting to become more important.  Since we use the barn for a number of things (including guest sleeping and Susan sewing), this is a non-trivial issue.  I don't know if you have much sense of smell, so we don't expect you to come over an sniff.  I would like to know if you have heard of anyone else observing this. I haven't heard of any such issue but offered to post his query here. Has anyone else among us heard of a "subtle, slightly rotten smell" from a Blue Ion installation? Thanks, Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat May 18 16:29:02 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 13:29:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Query re Blue Ion smell In-Reply-To: <685583a3-377d-3421-0be4-8414068d5d2e@sindelarsolar.com> References: <685583a3-377d-3421-0be4-8414068d5d2e@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, Allan, I have been using the Blue Ion battery system since they released the 2.0 a d l have systems in offices, labs and garages, l have never had a smell from any of them. I would however look closely at them and see if something got I to the cabinet and got fried. I have had snakes and rats to service panels, ants in inverters all which did smell. Make sure your shots are up to date. Jerry On Sat, May 18, 2019, 11:37 AM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Wrenches, > > My first (and largest at 48 kW-hr) Blue Ion LiFP installation has been in > operation for about 9 months. The client is happy with the batteries' > performance. However, he recently sent me the following question: > > Have you heard anything about the Blue Ion batteries generating an odor? > We have had an odor in the barn ever since the batteries went in. It is a > subtle, slightly rotten smell. We have searched for dead mice and other > such things and have found nothing. The correlation with the battery > installation is starting to become more important. Since we use the barn > for a number of things (including guest sleeping and Susan sewing), this is > a non-trivial issue. I don't know if you have much sense of smell, so we > don't expect you to come over an sniff. I would like to know if you have > heard of anyone else observing this. > > I haven't heard of any such issue but offered to post his query here. Has > anyone else among us heard of a "subtle, slightly rotten smell" from a Blue > Ion installation? > > Thanks, Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat May 18 14:54:09 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 11:54:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Query re Blue Ion smell In-Reply-To: <685583a3-377d-3421-0be4-8414068d5d2e@sindelarsolar.com> References: <685583a3-377d-3421-0be4-8414068d5d2e@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <2faa862d8d09bbcd732d15bfa80cb230@127.0.0.1> Allen, Specific to Blue Ion, no I have not heard this but there are cases of LFP going bad on the internet. Can you open the Blue Ion front panel and test for a stronger smell? If so I would start looking at temperature. Compare the different banks? Is the smell there all of the time or during charging? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 18 May 2019 12:37:52 -0600, Sindelar Solar wrote: Wrenches, My first (and largest at 48 kW-hr) Blue Ion LiFP installation has been in operation for about 9 months. The client is happy with the batteries' performance. However, he recently sent me the following question: Have you heard anything about the Blue Ion batteries generating an odor? We have had an odor in the barn ever since the batteries went in. It is a subtle, slightly rotten smell. We have searched for dead mice and other such things and have found nothing. The correlation with the battery installation is starting to become more important. Since we use the barn for a number of things (including guest sleeping and Susan sewing), this is a non-trivial issue. I don't know if you have much sense of smell, so we don't expect you to come over an sniff. I would like to know if you have heard of anyone else observing this. I haven't heard of any such issue but offered to post his query here. Has anyone else among us heard of a "subtle, slightly rotten smell" from a Blue Ion installation? Thanks, Allan -- ALLAN SINDELAR allan at sindelarsolar.com [3] New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 CELL -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun May 19 12:31:22 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 09:31:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Query re Blue Ion smell In-Reply-To: <685583a3-377d-3421-0be4-8414068d5d2e@sindelarsolar.com> References: <685583a3-377d-3421-0be4-8414068d5d2e@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Allan Have you contacted BI Support, they have a pretty good team that can help with this, Jerry On Sat, May 18, 2019, 11:37 AM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Wrenches, > > My first (and largest at 48 kW-hr) Blue Ion LiFP installation has been in > operation for about 9 months. The client is happy with the batteries' > performance. However, he recently sent me the following question: > > Have you heard anything about the Blue Ion batteries generating an odor? > We have had an odor in the barn ever since the batteries went in. It is a > subtle, slightly rotten smell. We have searched for dead mice and other > such things and have found nothing. The correlation with the battery > installation is starting to become more important. Since we use the barn > for a number of things (including guest sleeping and Susan sewing), this is > a non-trivial issue. I don't know if you have much sense of smell, so we > don't expect you to come over an sniff. I would like to know if you have > heard of anyone else observing this. > > I haven't heard of any such issue but offered to post his query here. Has > anyone else among us heard of a "subtle, slightly rotten smell" from a Blue > Ion installation? > > Thanks, Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russo.lou at gmail.com Mon May 20 02:23:51 2019 From: russo.lou at gmail.com (Lou Russo) Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 20:23:51 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Query re Blue Ion smell In-Reply-To: References: <685583a3-377d-3421-0be4-8414068d5d2e@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Aloha Allan, Of my small 132kW-Hr install base I have not had this issue. Aloha, Lou Russo (808) 345 6762 On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 6:31 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Allan > Have you contacted BI Support, they have a pretty good team that can help > with this, > Jerry > > On Sat, May 18, 2019, 11:37 AM Sindelar Solar > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> My first (and largest at 48 kW-hr) Blue Ion LiFP installation has been in >> operation for about 9 months. The client is happy with the batteries' >> performance. However, he recently sent me the following question: >> >> Have you heard anything about the Blue Ion batteries generating an odor? >> We have had an odor in the barn ever since the batteries went in. It is a >> subtle, slightly rotten smell. We have searched for dead mice and other >> such things and have found nothing. The correlation with the battery >> installation is starting to become more important. Since we use the barn >> for a number of things (including guest sleeping and Susan sewing), this is >> a non-trivial issue. I don't know if you have much sense of smell, so we >> don't expect you to come over an sniff. I would like to know if you have >> heard of anyone else observing this. >> >> I haven't heard of any such issue but offered to post his query here. Has >> anyone else among us heard of a "subtle, slightly rotten smell" from a Blue >> Ion installation? >> >> Thanks, Allan >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 20 11:32:01 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 08:32:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] trace sw remote display cable Message-ID: Does anyone know if the remote display cable is the same as the stacking cable? For the trace/xantrex SW. thx jay peltz power From brian at solarenergy.org Mon May 20 13:20:20 2019 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 10:20:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] trace sw remote display cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm pretty sure those are different cables, even though they both have the same 25-pin connector on both ends (the SWI cable has fewer conductors than the remote cable). It says right on the inverter to only use the special SWI cable for stacking, and the literature refers to them as different cables multiple times, while never mentioning that they can be used interchangeably. BTW, I'm really just passing this info on from Ed E! Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 9:34 AM jay wrote: > Does anyone know if the remote display cable is the same as the stacking > cable? > > For the trace/xantrex SW. > > thx > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Mon May 20 14:04:14 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 14:04:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] trace sw remote display cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15036702-E8E9-4725-B96E-3A054FC3AE5E@swnl.net> IT IS NOT. I might have both, and the remote display if needed. T > On May 20, 2019, at 1:20 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > > I'm pretty sure those are different cables, even though they both have the same 25-pin connector on both ends (the SWI cable has fewer conductors than the remote cable). It says right on the inverter to only use the special SWI cable for stacking, and the literature refers to them as different cables multiple times, while never mentioning that they can be used interchangeably. BTW, I'm really just passing this info on from Ed E! > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 9:34 AM jay > wrote: > Does anyone know if the remote display cable is the same as the stacking cable? > > For the trace/xantrex SW. > > thx > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon May 20 13:42:37 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 10:42:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] trace sw remote display cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7a9e40b1c1fb6d4e4b9d3e6343181217@mail.gmail.com> Jay: If it helps, I archived the wiring diagram for an SWI stacking cable here: https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Resources/Xantrex/_xantrex.html William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the day: "If there is a job you hate, get really, really good at it. Maybe you will hate it less." W. Miller -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 8:32 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] trace sw remote display cable Does anyone know if the remote display cable is the same as the stacking cable? For the trace/xantrex SW. thx jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu May 23 17:43:56 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 17:43:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Configuration Tool Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone know how to synchronize the DC voltage readings on Schneider inverters using the configuration tool? I don't think that information is in the manual. My information is that the configuration tool is required to synchronize the DC readings on the inverters, in order for two or three paralleled inverters all be able to sell to the grid. One of two is selling now, and we plan to add a 3rd. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu May 23 18:14:41 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 18:14:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Configuration Tool In-Reply-To: <20190523215504.731DC108366@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20190523215504.731DC108366@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I am interested to know as well. I have an old quad XW system I am working with and two of the four inverters are WAY off on DC voltage reading. I don't think there is any "sync" capability, but they can be calibrated using the config tool. In the end I gave up hope and abandoned the inverters for purposes of AGS and I'm charging with just two of the four that have values that closely correspond to the actual battery voltage. It became a problem when the inverters and XW charge controllers couldn't play nice with a LiPO BMS so I just rigged the charge control settings to work and abandoned the XW components that were not playing nice. Sadly this client will never be able to charge with all four XW inverters unless the DC parameters get fixed because they throw the BMS into disarray and cause shutdowns. I think this is going to be an ongoing issue with new BMS systems that come out and are paired by contractors with a variety of inverter/chargers. They may not play nice. That is the appeal of a system in a box approach that some battery manufacturers are taking. Of course, there are downsides to that approach as well. As an aside, the battery/BMS manufacturer blamed a welded shut BMS contactor on the inverter manufacturer for not including pre-charge devices in the inverter. I'm sure the inverter manufacturer would blame the BMS manufacturer for not making the BMS failsafe from this condition. May the finger-pointing begin! On a good note the BMS manufacturer replaced them at no charge. Jason Szumlanski On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 5:55 PM Drake wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone know how to synchronize the DC voltage readings on Schneider > inverters using the configuration tool? I don't think that information is > in the manual. > > My information is that the configuration tool is required to synchronize > the DC readings on the inverters, in order for two or three paralleled > inverters all be able to sell to the grid. One of two is selling now, and > we plan to add a 3rd. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Thu May 23 18:22:38 2019 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 22:22:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Configuration Tool In-Reply-To: <20190523215504.44F0610835B@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20190523215504.44F0610835B@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Drake, You use the config tool but with the calibration software. Contact me directly for the software Sandra Herrera Sandra.herrera at se.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2019 2:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Configuration Tool [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ Hello Wrenches, Does anyone know how to synchronize the DC voltage readings on Schneider inverters using the configuration tool? I don't think that information is in the manual. My information is that the configuration tool is required to synchronize the DC readings on the inverters, in order for two or three paralleled inverters all be able to sell to the grid. One of two is selling now, and we plan to add a 3rd. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu May 23 18:16:41 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 15:16:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Configuration Tool In-Reply-To: <20190523215503.2774D107E13@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20190523215503.2774D107E13@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <12b956f76b917b0773525e65bf75bc3c@127.0.0.1> Drake, I could be wrong because I do not do much grid work. I think you need to use the same configuration tool but with the Calibration tool software. I will ask when I talk with them later today. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 23 May 2019 17:43:56 -0400, Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone know how to synchronize the DC voltage readings on Schneider inverters using the configuration tool? I don't think that information is in the manual. My information is that the configuration tool is required to synchronize the DC readings on the inverters, in order for two or three paralleled inverters all be able to sell to the grid. One of two is selling now, and we plan to add a 3rd. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ [3] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Sat May 25 18:02:29 2019 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 18:02:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] merging PV data from different dashboards Message-ID: <005801d51345$8cd5ca30$a6815e90$@icloud.com> Hi All, I have a premium client I've done multiple systems for over the years with multiple inverter monitoring platforms (SolarEdge, Enphase, Fronius, Outback, etc.). I have been tasked with creating a monthly summary, listing building consumption, PV production, self-consumption and other data, in a common format. And I'd like to do it automatically, I don't have the desire to spend hours manually entering data from multiple platforms into a spreadsheet. Anyone know of a universal monitoring hardware that can work and report across all these platforms? Or perhaps software which could import data from distinct platforms and merge it all into a uniform summary site-by-site? Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 28th Anniversary 1991-2019 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ericyoungren at gmail.com Sun May 26 03:53:56 2019 From: ericyoungren at gmail.com (Eric Youngren) Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 14:23:56 +0630 Subject: [RE-wrenches] merging PV data from different dashboards In-Reply-To: <005801d51345$8cd5ca30$a6815e90$@icloud.com> References: <005801d51345$8cd5ca30$a6815e90$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Check out AMMP https://www.ammp.io/ They claim to be able to remotely monitor performance data from web connected devices from multiple vendors and multiple project sites and allow it to be viewed through a unified portfolio management dashboard. Their target market is rural mini-grid Distributed Energy Service Companies. It seems like you are looking for similar functionality so maybe they can do it. I have not yet seen the system in action but I will over the next few months because they have been selected as a service provider for the government subsidized mini-grid project I am part of in Myanmar. All the best Eric On Sun, May 26, 2019 at 5:22 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a premium client I’ve done multiple systems for over the years with > multiple inverter monitoring platforms (SolarEdge, Enphase, Fronius, > Outback, etc.). I have been tasked with creating a monthly summary, listing > building consumption, PV production, self-consumption and other data, in a > common format. And I’d like to do it automatically, I don’t have the > desire to spend hours manually entering data from multiple platforms into a > spreadsheet. > > Anyone know of a universal monitoring hardware that can work and report > across all these platforms? Or perhaps software which could import data > from distinct platforms and merge it all into a uniform summary > site-by-site? > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 28th Anniversary 1991-2019* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com > * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue May 28 00:44:58 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 23:44:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] merging PV data from different dashboards In-Reply-To: <005801d51345$8cd5ca30$a6815e90$@icloud.com> References: <005801d51345$8cd5ca30$a6815e90$@icloud.com> Message-ID: If you are after production and consumption only, which makes a lot of sense, I would use Egauge. if you use the Core it can monitor 15 channels on one device. It also has several math functions, it can, for example, give running demand, if your customer wants to know demand compensation. Egauge can give a one-second resolution. It will also measure voltages, currents, energy, power factor, leading and lagging reactive power. If your customer ever wants to do storage the Egauge data can do design basics allowing system sizing and ROI determination. On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 5:52 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a premium client I’ve done multiple systems for over the years with > multiple inverter monitoring platforms (SolarEdge, Enphase, Fronius, > Outback, etc.). I have been tasked with creating a monthly summary, listing > building consumption, PV production, self-consumption and other data, in a > common format. And I’d like to do it automatically, I don’t have the > desire to spend hours manually entering data from multiple platforms into a > spreadsheet. > > Anyone know of a universal monitoring hardware that can work and report > across all these platforms? Or perhaps software which could import data > from distinct platforms and merge it all into a uniform summary > site-by-site? > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 28th Anniversary 1991-2019* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com > * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Wed May 29 17:44:09 2019 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 21:44:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter References: <325559842.6454330.1559166249291.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <325559842.6454330.1559166249291@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Wrenches, We are installing a system for a project we did not design. The plans specify 5 Ginlong Solis inverters. Ginlong does not make their own rapid shutdown device, so units by Innovative Solar Products have been specified. The Innovative Solar rapid shutdowns are made to order and will take 4 weeks (not good for us). Does anyone know another mfr that makes rapid shutdown devices that are compatible with other mfrs inverters? Thanks, Jerry Caldwell Redwood Sun -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Wed May 29 19:07:13 2019 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 19:07:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter In-Reply-To: <325559842.6454330.1559166249291@mail.yahoo.com> References: <325559842.6454330.1559166249291.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <325559842.6454330.1559166249291@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jerry, Check out Midnight Solar’s Rapid Shutdown Shut Off Box (SOB). http://www.midnightsolar.com/ rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On May 29, 2019, at 5:44 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: > > Dear Wrenches, > > We are installing a system for a project we did not design. The plans specify 5 Ginlong Solis inverters. Ginlong does not make their own rapid shutdown device, so units by Innovative Solar Products have been specified. The Innovative Solar rapid shutdowns are made to order and will take 4 weeks (not good for us). > > Does anyone know another mfr that makes rapid shutdown devices that are compatible with other mfrs inverters? > > Thanks, > > Jerry Caldwell > Redwood Sun > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Wed May 29 22:09:43 2019 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 02:09:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter In-Reply-To: References: <325559842.6454330.1559166249291.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <325559842.6454330.1559166249291@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1634057782.6548822.1559182183159@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Rick. I like the acronym. Jerry Caldwell On Wed May 29 2019 16:07:19 GMT-0700 (PDT), Rick Brown wrote: Jerry, Check out Midnight Solar’s Rapid Shutdown Shut Off Box (SOB).  http://www.midnightsolar.com/ rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer   NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 On May 29, 2019, at 5:44 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: Dear Wrenches, We are installing a system for a project we did not design. The plans specify 5 Ginlong Solis inverters. Ginlong does not make their own rapid shutdown device, so units by Innovative Solar Products have been specified. The Innovative Solar rapid shutdowns are made to order and will take 4 weeks (not good for us). Does anyone know another mfr that makes rapid shutdown devices that are compatible with other mfrs inverters? Thanks, Jerry Caldwell Redwood Sun _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu May 30 00:16:12 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 23:16:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter In-Reply-To: References: <325559842.6454330.1559166249291.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <325559842.6454330.1559166249291@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Try Tigo, they have a MLPE shutdown wireless and does not use PLC (Power Line Communication). With an unknown inverter, the inverter switching noise may trigger the Tigo's PLC to keep on or shut off. Shutting off the inverter stoping module array current, and the AC supply to the "Gateways" loss of the heartbeat signal causes the shutdown of the modules. I have used such an arrangement and it is passing every test. This was maybe 1 or two years ago. Tigo may have made changes since then. hope this helps. On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 6:07 PM Rick Brown < rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com> wrote: > Jerry, > > Check out Midnight Solar’s Rapid Shutdown Shut Off Box (SOB). > > http://www.midnightsolar.com/ > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > On May 29, 2019, at 5:44 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: > > Dear Wrenches, > > We are installing a system for a project we did not design. The plans > specify 5 Ginlong Solis inverters. Ginlong does not make their own rapid > shutdown device, so units by Innovative Solar Products have been specified. > The Innovative Solar rapid shutdowns are made to order and will take 4 > weeks (not good for us). > > Does anyone know another mfr that makes rapid shutdown devices that are > compatible with other mfrs inverters? > > Thanks, > > Jerry Caldwell > Redwood Sun > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu May 30 09:15:39 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 09:15:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter In-Reply-To: References: <325559842.6454330.1559166249291.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <325559842.6454330.1559166249291@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just a note about midnite's SOB rapid shutdown system. It does not seem to work with all inverters. I was recently helping someone with a Princeton Power Systems inverter add in rapid shutdown. There was some kind of line noise coming from the inverter that was causing the rapid shutdown system to not work at all. It held the string voltage down even when it should not have. The only way to get the string voltage back up was to physically disconnect the PV from the inverter. So we had to pull the rapid shutdown and will need to find another solution. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 7:07 PM Rick Brown < rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com> wrote: > Jerry, > > Check out Midnight Solar’s Rapid Shutdown Shut Off Box (SOB). > > http://www.midnightsolar.com/ > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > On May 29, 2019, at 5:44 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: > > Dear Wrenches, > > We are installing a system for a project we did not design. The plans > specify 5 Ginlong Solis inverters. Ginlong does not make their own rapid > shutdown device, so units by Innovative Solar Products have been specified. > The Innovative Solar rapid shutdowns are made to order and will take 4 > weeks (not good for us). > > Does anyone know another mfr that makes rapid shutdown devices that are > compatible with other mfrs inverters? > > Thanks, > > Jerry Caldwell > Redwood Sun > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu May 30 10:23:40 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 10:23:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter In-Reply-To: References: <325559842.6454330.1559166249291.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <325559842.6454330.1559166249291@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I may have spoken too soon on this. It turns out that the LSOB system just does not work with PV charge controllers. The Princeton Power Systems DRI-10 inverter has charge controllers built in, which is why the system was not working. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 9:15 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Just a note about midnite's SOB rapid shutdown system. It does not seem to > work with all inverters. I was recently helping someone with a Princeton > Power Systems inverter add in rapid shutdown. There was some kind of line > noise coming from the inverter that was causing the rapid shutdown system > to not work at all. It held the string voltage down even when it should not > have. The only way to get the string voltage back up was to physically > disconnect the PV from the inverter. So we had to pull the rapid shutdown > and will need to find another solution. > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > > > On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 7:07 PM Rick Brown < > rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com> wrote: > >> Jerry, >> >> Check out Midnight Solar’s Rapid Shutdown Shut Off Box (SOB). >> >> http://www.midnightsolar.com/ >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> >> On May 29, 2019, at 5:44 PM, Jerry Caldwell >> wrote: >> >> Dear Wrenches, >> >> We are installing a system for a project we did not design. The plans >> specify 5 Ginlong Solis inverters. Ginlong does not make their own rapid >> shutdown device, so units by Innovative Solar Products have been specified. >> The Innovative Solar rapid shutdowns are made to order and will take 4 >> weeks (not good for us). >> >> Does anyone know another mfr that makes rapid shutdown devices that are >> compatible with other mfrs inverters? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jerry Caldwell >> Redwood Sun >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu May 30 10:36:48 2019 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 07:36:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter In-Reply-To: References: <325559842.6454330.1559166249291.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <325559842.6454330.1559166249291@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The IMO FireRaptor units are as far as I know immune to any interference from charge controls or inverters. It does not rely on wireless or power line communications. It is simply a hard wired module level disconnect that runs on 24VDC. It has two-wire daisy chain cables between them, with a nice connector, and MC4 for the module and string wiring. OutBack and OutBack distributors are now selling them. Brad On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 7:23 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > I may have spoken too soon on this. It turns out that the LSOB system just > does not work with PV charge controllers. The Princeton Power Systems > DRI-10 inverter has charge controllers built in, which is why the system > was not working. > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > > > On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 9:15 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >> Just a note about midnite's SOB rapid shutdown system. It does not seem >> to work with all inverters. I was recently helping someone with a Princeton >> Power Systems inverter add in rapid shutdown. There was some kind of line >> noise coming from the inverter that was causing the rapid shutdown system >> to not work at all. It held the string voltage down even when it should not >> have. The only way to get the string voltage back up was to physically >> disconnect the PV from the inverter. So we had to pull the rapid shutdown >> and will need to find another solution. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >> B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree >> >> >> On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 7:07 PM Rick Brown < >> rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com> wrote: >> >>> Jerry, >>> >>> Check out Midnight Solar’s Rapid Shutdown Shut Off Box (SOB). >>> >>> http://www.midnightsolar.com/ >>> >>> rick brown >>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>> 540.808.9502 >>> >>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>> >>> On May 29, 2019, at 5:44 PM, Jerry Caldwell >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Wrenches, >>> >>> We are installing a system for a project we did not design. The plans >>> specify 5 Ginlong Solis inverters. Ginlong does not make their own rapid >>> shutdown device, so units by Innovative Solar Products have been specified. >>> The Innovative Solar rapid shutdowns are made to order and will take 4 >>> weeks (not good for us). >>> >>> Does anyone know another mfr that makes rapid shutdown devices that are >>> compatible with other mfrs inverters? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jerry Caldwell >>> Redwood Sun >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu May 30 10:29:35 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 10:29:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter In-Reply-To: References: <325559842.6454330.1559166249291.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <325559842.6454330.1559166249291@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003e01d516f4$1c6a2f90$553e8eb0$@glbcc.com> Hi Darryl, I have been looking into the Tigo TS4-F rapid shutdown option, including attending a webinar on their products. As far as I have been told, they DO use a powerline carrier communications method to trigger the MLPE units. A trigger device has to be wired to AC to detect loss of grid, and one conductor of every PV string must go through their attached CT donut which imposes this communications onto the PV wiring, and communicating with the module level components. >From their documentation: TS4-F units automatically enter rapid shutdown mode when the RSS Transmitter is switched off and resume energy production when power is restored to the RSS Transmitter. This solution complies with NEC 2014 & 2017 690.12 specifications utilizing power-line communication (PLC). Please tell me what system you have that is wireless? Thanks, Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 12:16 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter Try Tigo, they have a MLPE shutdown wireless and does not use PLC (Power Line Communication). With an unknown inverter, the inverter switching noise may trigger the Tigo's PLC to keep on or shut off. Shutting off the inverter stoping module array current, and the AC supply to the "Gateways" loss of the heartbeat signal causes the shutdown of the modules. I have used such an arrangement and it is passing every test. This was maybe 1 or two years ago. Tigo may have made changes since then. hope this helps. On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 6:07 PM Rick Brown > wrote: Jerry, Check out Midnight Solar’s Rapid Shutdown Shut Off Box (SOB). http://www.midnightsolar.com/ rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 On May 29, 2019, at 5:44 PM, Jerry Caldwell > wrote: Dear Wrenches, We are installing a system for a project we did not design. The plans specify 5 Ginlong Solis inverters. Ginlong does not make their own rapid shutdown device, so units by Innovative Solar Products have been specified. The Innovative Solar rapid shutdowns are made to order and will take 4 weeks (not good for us). Does anyone know another mfr that makes rapid shutdown devices that are compatible with other mfrs inverters? Thanks, Jerry Caldwell Redwood Sun _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu May 30 13:38:45 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 13:38:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase inverters with trackers? In-Reply-To: References: <325559842.6454330.1559166249291.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <325559842.6454330.1559166249291@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2e821dcc-cf7a-5928-579e-2c406f36b10d@entech-engineering.com> We are looking at using Enphase IQ7 on a 12 module tracker.  Enphase has said this has been done, but they don't have any information on them, other than what they see via the data.  I am wondering if anyone has done this and were there any problems that they had that they would be willing to share.  Thank you in advance, Chris Warfel From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu May 30 13:49:55 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 11:49:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase inverters with trackers? In-Reply-To: <2e821dcc-cf7a-5928-579e-2c406f36b10d@entech-engineering.com> References: <325559842.6454330.1559166249291.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <325559842.6454330.1559166249291@mail.yahoo.com> <2e821dcc-cf7a-5928-579e-2c406f36b10d@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, I don't think you'll have an issue but you may be clipping for a more substantial part of the day than a fixed mount. Depends on the module selection. Thanks On Thu, May 30, 2019, 11:39 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > We are looking at using Enphase IQ7 on a 12 module tracker. Enphase has > said this has been done, but they don't have any information on them, > other than what they see via the data. I am wondering if anyone has > done this and were there any problems that they had that they would be > willing to share. Thank you in advance, Chris Warfel > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu May 30 17:48:34 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 17:48:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Quick Cable supplier Message-ID: Any suggestions for a professional sales rep for Quick Cable would be appreciated. Am in need of Magna Lugs that are listed for my QC crimper, available in a timely fashion. Please contact me off list. thanks Tump > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu May 30 17:32:12 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 11:32:12 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Storage Message-ID: <015601d5172f$257c9100$7075b300$@com> Aloha amigas y amigos. Have any of you installed any of the new Sunny Storage inverters with the accompanying backup switch? Any feedback? Mahalo, marco --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Thu May 30 18:49:11 2019 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 15:49:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Quick Cable supplier In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Try- PV Cables Inc. They are quick to ship and typically have these in stock. Cheers Kirpal Oregon Solarworks On Thu, May 30, 2019, 2:48 PM Tump wrote: > Any suggestions for a *professional* sales rep for Quick Cable would be > appreciated. > Am in need of Magna Lugs that are listed for my QC crimper, available in a > timely fashion. > Please contact me off list. thanks Tump > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Sun Jun 2 10:03:03 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 14:03:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Quick Cable supplier In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My favorite supplier is PV cables, but if you need something they don't have in stock, they can't often get it sent to you in a timely manner. With that in mind, check out Century Tool - https://www.centurytool.net/SearchResults.asp?Extensive_Search=Y&Search=Magna&Search.x=0&Search.y=0 They are the largest dealer of Quick Cable. because of their high volume, they always have a lot in stock, and their pricing is really good. I do prefer to buy from someone knowledgeable and helpful in our industry, but when that's not a good option, Century Tool is a good backup option. I tried to become a dealer directly to quick cable, but they don't want small dealers. Thanks, Kienan On May 30, 2019, at 4:50 PM, Kirpal > wrote: Try- PV Cables Inc. They are quick to ship and typically have these in stock. Cheers Kirpal Oregon Solarworks On Thu, May 30, 2019, 2:48 PM Tump > wrote: Any suggestions for a professional sales rep for Quick Cable would be appreciated. Am in need of Magna Lugs that are listed for my QC crimper, available in a timely fashion. Please contact me off list. thanks Tump Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Mon Jun 3 00:55:20 2019 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 04:55:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter In-Reply-To: <003e01d516f4$1c6a2f90$553e8eb0$@glbcc.com> References: <325559842.6454330.1559166249291.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <325559842.6454330.1559166249291@mail.yahoo.com> <003e01d516f4$1c6a2f90$553e8eb0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <120683300.7944997.1559537720649@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for all of the responses on this guys. I looked around and found these units from Solar BOS. http://www.solarbos.com/content/common/common.download_file.php?action_special=download_file&sid=da4cc37711812e408480a476f2302fac&download_file_id=1549534 Cheers, Jerry Caldwell On Thu May 30 2019 08:45:09 GMT-0700 (PDT), Glenn Burt wrote: #yiv3314216705 #yiv3314216705 -- _filtered #yiv3314216705 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3314216705 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3314216705 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3314216705 {font-family:Lato;panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}#yiv3314216705 #yiv3314216705 p.yiv3314216705MsoNormal, #yiv3314216705 li.yiv3314216705MsoNormal, #yiv3314216705 div.yiv3314216705MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv3314216705 a:link, #yiv3314216705 span.yiv3314216705MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3314216705 a:visited, #yiv3314216705 span.yiv3314216705MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3314216705 p.yiv3314216705msonormal0, #yiv3314216705 li.yiv3314216705msonormal0, #yiv3314216705 div.yiv3314216705msonormal0 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv3314216705 span.yiv3314216705EmailStyle18 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv3314216705 .yiv3314216705MsoChpDefault {font-family:sans-serif;} _filtered #yiv3314216705 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv3314216705 div.yiv3314216705WordSection1 {}#yiv3314216705 Hi Darryl,   I have been looking into the Tigo TS4-F rapid shutdown option, including attending a webinar on their products. As far as I have been told, they DO use a powerline carrier communications method to trigger the MLPE units. A trigger device has to be wired to AC to detect loss of grid, and one conductor of every PV string must go through their attached CT donut which imposes this communications onto the PV wiring, and communicating with the module level components. >From their documentation: TS4-F units automatically enter rapid shutdown mode when the RSS Transmitter is switched off and resume energy production when power is restored to the RSS Transmitter. This solution complies with NEC 2014 & 2017 690.12 specifications utilizing power-line communication (PLC).   Please tell me what system you have that is wireless?   Thanks, Glenn   From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 12:16 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter   Try Tigo, they have a MLPE shutdown wireless and does not use PLC (Power Line  Communication).  With an unknown inverter, the inverter switching noise may trigger the Tigo's PLC to keep on or shut off.   Shutting off the inverter stoping module array current, and the AC supply to the "Gateways" loss of the heartbeat signal causes the shutdown of the modules.   I have used such an arrangement and it is passing every test.  This was maybe 1 or two years ago. Tigo may have made changes since then.  hope this helps.   On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 6:07 PM Rick Brown wrote: Jerry,   Check out Midnight Solar’s Rapid Shutdown Shut Off Box (SOB).    http://www.midnightsolar.com/ rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer   NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 On May 29, 2019, at 5:44 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: Dear Wrenches,   We are installing a system for a project we did not design. The plans specify 5 Ginlong Solis inverters. Ginlong does not make their own rapid shutdown device, so units by Innovative Solar Products have been specified. The Innovative Solar rapid shutdowns are made to order and will take 4 weeks (not good for us).   Does anyone know another mfr that makes rapid shutdown devices that are compatible with other mfrs inverters?   Thanks,   Jerry Caldwell Redwood Sun _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Mon Jun 3 00:59:50 2019 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 04:59:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] looking for a Megger recommendation References: <212113773.7967043.1559537990733.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <212113773.7967043.1559537990733@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a reasonably priced megger? The one on the Solmetric website looks nice, but I'd like to spend a bit less. Thanks, Jerry Caldwell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jun 3 14:34:12 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 11:34:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch Message-ID: <3AD78370-89B7-4471-B866-70DF1E71A377@millersolar.com> Friends: As part of my ongoing love/hate relationship with Outback, I have been occasionally receiving “Inverter firmware mismatch” warnings on some Radian systems. The firmware has not been changed. I was told it was bad data cables. I replaced all cables on one system only to receive more of the same warnings. Then, suddenly the error warnings quit. Now today another system is experiencing the same warnings. Does anyone know what this means and how to fix it? Thanks in advance. William From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jun 3 11:38:13 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2019 08:38:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] looking for a Megger recommendation In-Reply-To: <212113773.7967043.1559537990733@mail.yahoo.com> References: <212113773.7967043.1559537990733.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <212113773.7967043.1559537990733@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A 1000v megger from the old Hewlett Packard Instrumentation business is Keysight. A link below. https://www.transcat.com/u1451a?st-t=adword_google_* border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> Dear Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a reasonably priced megger? The one on the Solmetric website looks nice, but I'd like to spend a bit less. Thanks, Jerry Caldwell -- Links: ------ [1] https://www.transcat.com/u1451a?st-t=adword_google_*&gclid=Cj0KCQjwitPnBRCQARIsAA5n84nN1FC9kUFkaahrlc-nwnXhyOtP8KZLtZ4QU-AJOuuFRvh_lyHyKEsaAvEvEALw_wcB [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Jun 3 23:00:02 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 21:00:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: <3AD78370-89B7-4471-B866-70DF1E71A377@millersolar.com> References: <3AD78370-89B7-4471-B866-70DF1E71A377@millersolar.com> Message-ID: William, We have experienced this same issue on various Outback systems, mainly on multi-stack fxr systems. I can't say I know or understand why this happens. To me, it makes sense that it's a communication error of some kind. What I've done with success: 1. Update all firmware, Mate, devices etc. 2. If a certain device (s) seems to have an issue, replace cables. 3. Apply terminal grease to all devices connections and Hub connections. So far, this approach has worked, but will eat a lot of man hours. Good luck, and please let us know if you find anything deeper out about this. On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 8:49 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > As part of my ongoing love/hate relationship with Outback, I have been > occasionally receiving “Inverter firmware mismatch” warnings on some Radian > systems. The firmware has not been changed. > > I was told it was bad data cables. I replaced all cables on one system > only to receive more of the same warnings. Then, suddenly the error > warnings quit. > > Now today another system is experiencing the same warnings. > > Does anyone know what this means and how to fix it? > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Tue Jun 4 01:46:57 2019 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 22:46:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] looking for a Megger recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <212113773.7967043.1559537990733.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <212113773.7967043.1559537990733@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've been happy with the Hioki 1500V clamp meter, but I haven't tried their PV megger yet. Has anyone? Hioki IR4053-10 megger $330 Blake Gleason, PE Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence Sun Light & Power On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 7:50 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > A 1000v megger from the old Hewlett Packard Instrumentation business is > Keysight. A link below. > > > https://www.transcat.com/u1451a?st-t=adword_google_*&gclid=Cj0KCQjwitPnBRCQARIsAA5n84nN1FC9kUFkaahrlc-nwnXhyOtP8KZLtZ4QU-AJOuuFRvh_lyHyKEsaAvEvEALw_wcB > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 04:59:50 +0000 (UTC), Jerry Caldwell < > solarcowboy at yahoo.com> wrote: > > Dear Wrenches, > > Can anyone recommend a reasonably priced megger? The one on the Solmetric > website looks nice, but I'd like to spend a bit less. > > Thanks, > Jerry Caldwell > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce4power at gmail.com Tue Jun 4 19:04:55 2019 From: bruce4power at gmail.com (Bruce Geddes) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 11:04:55 +1200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: References: <3AD78370-89B7-4471-B866-70DF1E71A377@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <001e01d51b29$eed62b80$cc828280$@gmail.com> Don’t know about Radian but I had this issue with a dual stack VFXR system. After five visits to site (3 hours drive one way) Tech support eventually told me there had been a bad batch of comms boards on FXR’s but I had already swapped inverters out for VFX’s at last visit and issue ceased. Definitely some sort of comms glitch causing the Mate3 to loose info on devices. Best of luck from down under. Bruce Geddes PowerOn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Tuesday, 4 June 2019 3:00 p.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch William, We have experienced this same issue on various Outback systems, mainly on multi-stack fxr systems. I can't say I know or understand why this happens. To me, it makes sense that it's a communication error of some kind. What I've done with success: 1. Update all firmware, Mate, devices etc. 2. If a certain device (s) seems to have an issue, replace cables. 3. Apply terminal grease to all devices connections and Hub connections. So far, this approach has worked, but will eat a lot of man hours. Good luck, and please let us know if you find anything deeper out about this. On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 8:49 PM William Miller wrote: Friends: As part of my ongoing love/hate relationship with Outback, I have been occasionally receiving “Inverter firmware mismatch” warnings on some Radian systems. The firmware has not been changed. I was told it was bad data cables. I replaced all cables on one system only to receive more of the same warnings. Then, suddenly the error warnings quit. Now today another system is experiencing the same warnings. Does anyone know what this means and how to fix it? Thanks in advance. William _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Jun 5 00:32:28 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 21:32:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: <001e01d51b29$eed62b80$cc828280$@gmail.com> References: <3AD78370-89B7-4471-B866-70DF1E71A377@millersolar.com> <001e01d51b29$eed62b80$cc828280$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <11d544bd-fedb-1353-4bdd-b6461be52bae@psln.com> Besides all the good info from Mac, there may be something to gain from following OB's sequence procedure for a proper complete system (all devices) shutdown and reboot. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 6/4/2019 4:04 PM, Bruce Geddes wrote: > > Don’t know about Radian but I had this issue with a dual stack VFXR > system.  After five visits to site (3 hours drive one way) Tech > support eventually told me there had been a bad batch of comms boards > on FXR’s but I had already swapped inverters out for VFX’s at last > visit and issue ceased. Definitely some sort of comms glitch causing > the Mate3 to loose info on devices. > > Best of luck from down under. > > Bruce Geddes > > PowerOn > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Mac Lewis > *Sent:* Tuesday, 4 June 2019 3:00 p.m. > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch > > William, > > We have experienced this same issue on various Outback systems, mainly > on multi-stack fxr systems.  I can't say I know or understand why this > happens. To me, it makes sense that it's a communication error of some > kind. What I've done with success: > > 1. Update all firmware, Mate, devices etc. > > 2. If a certain device (s) seems to have an issue, replace cables. > > 3. Apply terminal grease to all devices connections and Hub connections. > > So far, this approach has worked, but will eat a lot of man hours. > > Good luck, and please let us know if you find anything deeper out > about this. > > On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 8:49 PM William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > As part of my ongoing love/hate relationship with Outback, I have > been occasionally receiving “Inverter firmware mismatch” warnings > on some Radian systems. The firmware has not been changed. > > I was told it was bad data cables. I replaced all cables on one > system only to receive more of the same warnings. Then, suddenly > the error warnings quit. > > Now today another system is experiencing the same warnings. > > Does anyone know what this means and how to fix it? > > Thanks in advance. > > William > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Wed Jun 5 11:53:16 2019 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 15:53:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] looking for a Megger recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <212113773.7967043.1559537990733.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <212113773.7967043.1559537990733@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <245124713.317832.1559749996123@mail.yahoo.com> Dave & Blake, Thank you kindly for the recommendations. Very helpful. Best regards, Jerry Caldwell On Mon Jun 03 2019 22:47:14 GMT-0700 (PDT), Blake Gleason wrote: I've been happy with the Hioki 1500V clamp meter, but I haven't tried their PV megger yet.   Has anyone? Hioki IR4053-10  megger  $330 Blake Gleason, PE Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence Sun Light & Power On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 7:50 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: A 1000v megger from the old Hewlett Packard Instrumentation business is Keysight. A link below. https://www.transcat.com/u1451a?st-t=adword_google_*&gclid=Cj0KCQjwitPnBRCQARIsAA5n84nN1FC9kUFkaahrlc-nwnXhyOtP8KZLtZ4QU-AJOuuFRvh_lyHyKEsaAvEvEALw_wcB Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 04:59:50 +0000 (UTC), Jerry Caldwell wrote: Dear Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a reasonably priced megger? The one on the Solmetric website looks nice, but I'd like to spend a bit less. Thanks, Jerry Caldwell --   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jun 4 21:29:45 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 18:29:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider ac coupling time. Message-ID: HI All, I’ve got a project using lithium batteries and a big hydro. 4kw hydro 6.8kw schneider off grid AC coupled hydro The plan is to use a combination of ways to keep from overcharging the batteries. 1. PWM diversion control load. If this doesn’t keep up then we go to #2 2. AC couple HZ control and if that fails we go to #3 3. SS relay control on GT inverter output via inverter control My question is this: Does anyone know the time between when the XW+ sees the voltage and then gets to the 64hz for regulation? thanks jay peltz power From william at millersolar.com Wed Jun 5 00:42:58 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 21:42:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: <11d544bd-fedb-1353-4bdd-b6461be52bae@psln.com> References: <3AD78370-89B7-4471-B866-70DF1E71A377@millersolar.com> <001e01d51b29$eed62b80$cc828280$@gmail.com> <11d544bd-fedb-1353-4bdd-b6461be52bae@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill: I am not sure how your point applies. This occurs on systems that have been running for some time. I would hope equipment in this price range and this application does not need frequent rebooting. William > On Jun 4, 2019, at 9:32 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Besides all the good info from Mac, there may be something to gain from following OB's sequence procedure for a proper complete system (all devices) shutdown and reboot. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net >> On 6/4/2019 4:04 PM, Bruce Geddes wrote: >> Don’t know about Radian but I had this issue with a dual stack VFXR system. After five visits to site (3 hours drive one way) Tech support eventually told me there had been a bad batch of comms boards on FXR’s but I had already swapped inverters out for VFX’s at last visit and issue ceased. Definitely some sort of comms glitch causing the Mate3 to loose info on devices. >> Best of luck from down under. >> Bruce Geddes >> PowerOn >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis >> Sent: Tuesday, 4 June 2019 3:00 p.m. >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch >> >> William, >> >> We have experienced this same issue on various Outback systems, mainly on multi-stack fxr systems. I can't say I know or understand why this happens. To me, it makes sense that it's a communication error of some kind. What I've done with success: >> 1. Update all firmware, Mate, devices etc. >> 2. If a certain device (s) seems to have an issue, replace cables. >> 3. Apply terminal grease to all devices connections and Hub connections. >> >> So far, this approach has worked, but will eat a lot of man hours. >> >> Good luck, and please let us know if you find anything deeper out about this. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 8:49 PM William Miller wrote: >> Friends: >> >> As part of my ongoing love/hate relationship with Outback, I have been occasionally receiving “Inverter firmware mismatch” warnings on some Radian systems. The firmware has not been changed. >> >> I was told it was bad data cables. I replaced all cables on one system only to receive more of the same warnings. Then, suddenly the error warnings quit. >> >> Now today another system is experiencing the same warnings. >> >> Does anyone know what this means and how to fix it? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> William >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Wed Jun 5 13:11:24 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 17:11:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider ac coupling time. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, It waits 50 seconds to even start to try to shift the frequency. I don’t know how long it takes to get up to get to 64 HZ. I heard somebody say that they thought that the 50 second delay should be adjustable, but I could not find a way to adjust it. I have not had a chance to talk to Schneider tech-support about it since then. I had a problem with this on a job, by the time the Schneider would change its frequency, the voltage would be way over an acceptable voltage. I had to adjust the voltage setpoint down in order to try to shorten the delay. That was not really a good workaround because how quickly the voltage rises depends on the charge rate. I know that all of the delays and ramp up speeds and ramp down speeds are fully user adjustable on outback equipment, I hope that Schneider has added this adjustability by now... but last time I checked, I don’t think you could. Thanks, Kienan > On Jun 5, 2019, at 10:46 AM, jay wrote: > > > HI All, > > I’ve got a project using lithium batteries and a big hydro. > > 4kw hydro > 6.8kw schneider > off grid > AC coupled hydro > > The plan is to use a combination of ways to keep from overcharging the batteries. > > 1. PWM diversion control load. If this doesn’t keep up then we go to #2 > 2. AC couple HZ control and if that fails we go to #3 > 3. SS relay control on GT inverter output via inverter control > > > My question is this: Does anyone know the time between when the XW+ sees the voltage and then gets to the 64hz for regulation? > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Wed Jun 5 13:25:28 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 17:25:28 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: References: <3AD78370-89B7-4471-B866-70DF1E71A377@millersolar.com> <001e01d51b29$eed62b80$cc828280$@gmail.com> <11d544bd-fedb-1353-4bdd-b6461be52bae@psln.com>, Message-ID: I have seen this problem and other similar problems many times. I saw one just last month that someone else was having trouble with. And with every single case that I’ve seen, the installer had accidentally neglected to ensure that the inverters are plugged into the correct ports. One of the Outback instruction manuals does say that the master inverter must be plugged into port one of the hub. In my own experience, if it’s not plugged into port one, all kinds of weird and strange problems arise. I would be only slightly surprised if Outback tech-support did not have you check that. I think that some of their techs don’t know the little details like that. On the Radian last month, I went over and switched the cables so that the Radian was plugged into port one, and it worked great after that. Just to keep things organized, I always ensure to put the master inverter in Port 1, the second inverter (first slave) in Port 2, etc., then put all the charge controllers after that. I don’t understand it, I just know that this is a good way to prevent strange and frustrating errors. Sometimes the ever occurs immediately, sometimes the error waits and happens after running a while. I have found this same issue with all Outback products, FX, Radian, FXR, etc. Thanks, Kienan 801-631-5584 On Jun 5, 2019, at 10:47 AM, William Miller > wrote: Bill: I am not sure how your point applies. This occurs on systems that have been running for some time. I would hope equipment in this price range and this application does not need frequent rebooting. William On Jun 4, 2019, at 9:32 PM, frenergy > wrote: Besides all the good info from Mac, there may be something to gain from following OB's sequence procedure for a proper complete system (all devices) shutdown and reboot. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 6/4/2019 4:04 PM, Bruce Geddes wrote: Don’t know about Radian but I had this issue with a dual stack VFXR system. After five visits to site (3 hours drive one way) Tech support eventually told me there had been a bad batch of comms boards on FXR’s but I had already swapped inverters out for VFX’s at last visit and issue ceased. Definitely some sort of comms glitch causing the Mate3 to loose info on devices. Best of luck from down under. Bruce Geddes PowerOn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Tuesday, 4 June 2019 3:00 p.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch William, We have experienced this same issue on various Outback systems, mainly on multi-stack fxr systems. I can't say I know or understand why this happens. To me, it makes sense that it's a communication error of some kind. What I've done with success: 1. Update all firmware, Mate, devices etc. 2. If a certain device (s) seems to have an issue, replace cables. 3. Apply terminal grease to all devices connections and Hub connections. So far, this approach has worked, but will eat a lot of man hours. Good luck, and please let us know if you find anything deeper out about this. On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 8:49 PM William Miller > wrote: Friends: As part of my ongoing love/hate relationship with Outback, I have been occasionally receiving “Inverter firmware mismatch” warnings on some Radian systems. The firmware has not been changed. I was told it was bad data cables. I replaced all cables on one system only to receive more of the same warnings. Then, suddenly the error warnings quit. Now today another system is experiencing the same warnings. Does anyone know what this means and how to fix it? Thanks in advance. William _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif] Virus-free. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jun 5 14:28:08 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2019 11:28:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider ac coupling time. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, XW+ and XWpro have so many adjustments for AC coupling that I wish they would just make an offgrid firmware version that would get rid of all the grid requirements. I tested this on XW pro and it took about 8 seconds. However, as Kienan remarked it would also depend on charge rate from both solar and/or grid/gen. It also would depend on the capacity/Soc of the bank. I used a 400AH 48v bank. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 17:11:24 +0000, Kienan Maxfield wrote: > Jay, > > It waits 50 seconds to even start to try to shift the frequency. I don’t > know how long it takes to get up to get to 64 HZ. I heard somebody say that > they thought that the 50 second delay should be adjustable, but I could not > find a way to adjust it. I have not had a chance to talk to Schneider > tech-support about it since then. > > I had a problem with this on a job, by the time the Schneider would change > its frequency, the voltage would be way over an acceptable voltage. I had > to adjust the voltage setpoint down in order to try to shorten the delay. > That was not really a good workaround because how quickly the voltage rises > depends on the charge rate. > > I know that all of the delays and ramp up speeds and ramp down speeds are > fully user adjustable on outback equipment, I hope that Schneider has added > this adjustability by now... but last time I checked, I don’t think you > could. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > > >> On Jun 5, 2019, at 10:46 AM, jay wrote: >> >> >> HI All, >> >> I’ve got a project using lithium batteries and a big hydro. >> >> 4kw hydro >> 6.8kw schneider >> off grid >> AC coupled hydro >> >> The plan is to use a combination of ways to keep from overcharging the >> batteries. >> >> 1. PWM diversion control load. If this doesn’t keep up then we go to #2 >> 2. AC couple HZ control and if that fails we go to #3 >> 3. SS relay control on GT inverter output via inverter control >> >> >> My question is this: Does anyone know the time between when the XW+ >> sees the voltage and then gets to the 64hz for regulation? >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From william at millersolar.com Wed Jun 5 13:38:46 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 10:38:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: References: <3AD78370-89B7-4471-B866-70DF1E71A377@millersolar.com> <001e01d51b29$eed62b80$cc828280$@gmail.com> <11d544bd-fedb-1353-4bdd-b6461be52bae@psln.com> Message-ID: My inverters are connected to the correct ports. > On Jun 5, 2019, at 10:25 AM, Kienan Maxfield wrote: > > I have seen this problem and other similar problems many times. I saw one just last month that someone else was having trouble with. And with every single case that I’ve seen, the installer had accidentally neglected to ensure that the inverters are plugged into the correct ports. One of the Outback instruction manuals does say that the master inverter must be plugged into port one of the hub. In my own experience, if it’s not plugged into port one, all kinds of weird and strange problems arise. I would be only slightly surprised if Outback tech-support did not have you check that. I think that some of their techs don’t know the little details like that. On the Radian last month, I went over and switched the cables so that the Radian was plugged into port one, and it worked great after that. > > Just to keep things organized, I always ensure to put the master inverter in Port 1, the second inverter (first slave) in Port 2, etc., then put all the charge controllers after that. I don’t understand it, I just know that this is a good way to prevent strange and frustrating errors. > > Sometimes the ever occurs immediately, sometimes the error waits and happens after running a while. I have found this same issue with all Outback products, FX, Radian, FXR, etc. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > 801-631-5584 > > On Jun 5, 2019, at 10:47 AM, William Miller wrote: > >> Bill: >> >> I am not sure how your point applies. This occurs on systems that have been running for some time. I would hope equipment in this price range and this application does not need frequent rebooting. >> >> William >> >> On Jun 4, 2019, at 9:32 PM, frenergy wrote: >> >>> Besides all the good info from Mac, there may be something to gain from following OB's sequence procedure for a proper complete system (all devices) shutdown and reboot. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net >>>> On 6/4/2019 4:04 PM, Bruce Geddes wrote: >>>> Don’t know about Radian but I had this issue with a dual stack VFXR system. After five visits to site (3 hours drive one way) Tech support eventually told me there had been a bad batch of comms boards on FXR’s but I had already swapped inverters out for VFX’s at last visit and issue ceased. Definitely some sort of comms glitch causing the Mate3 to loose info on devices. >>>> Best of luck from down under. >>>> Bruce Geddes >>>> PowerOn >>>> >>>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 4 June 2019 3:00 p.m. >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch >>>> >>>> William, >>>> >>>> We have experienced this same issue on various Outback systems, mainly on multi-stack fxr systems. I can't say I know or understand why this happens. To me, it makes sense that it's a communication error of some kind. What I've done with success: >>>> 1. Update all firmware, Mate, devices etc. >>>> 2. If a certain device (s) seems to have an issue, replace cables. >>>> 3. Apply terminal grease to all devices connections and Hub connections. >>>> >>>> So far, this approach has worked, but will eat a lot of man hours. >>>> >>>> Good luck, and please let us know if you find anything deeper out about this. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 8:49 PM William Miller wrote: >>>> Friends: >>>> >>>> As part of my ongoing love/hate relationship with Outback, I have been occasionally receiving “Inverter firmware mismatch” warnings on some Radian systems. The firmware has not been changed. >>>> >>>> I was told it was bad data cables. I replaced all cables on one system only to receive more of the same warnings. Then, suddenly the error warnings quit. >>>> >>>> Now today another system is experiencing the same warnings. >>>> >>>> Does anyone know what this means and how to fix it? >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance. >>>> >>>> William >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Virus-free. www.avast.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> -- >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Wed Jun 5 16:23:15 2019 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 20:23:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing Xantrex GT 100 - AC grounded system Message-ID: Hi all, We are working with a Xantrex GT 100 that appears on it's last legs. Schneider shipped a matrix and we installed it but that didn't work. Now they say we need to install a CCU and new motherboard. I believe I have all this right. If there is a way to replace the whole inverter with a legacy 600Vdc inverter instead, I'd do that. Any ideas on were to get those? Solectria PVI 95 seems like it would work. Otherwise our engineer could look at retrofitting the system with Hi-Q inverters. Any wisdom here would be greatly appreciated! David -- David Buckner President Solar Energy Systems, LLC. 1205 Manhattan Avenue Suite 1210 Brooklyn, NY 11222-1058 ph 917-848-0215 e  dbuckner at solaresystems.com From bruce4power at gmail.com Wed Jun 5 17:19:28 2019 From: bruce4power at gmail.com (Bruce Geddes) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 09:19:28 +1200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: References: <3AD78370-89B7-4471-B866-70DF1E71A377@millersolar.com> <001e01d51b29$eed62b80$cc828280$@gmail.com> <11d544bd-fedb-1353-4bdd-b6461be52bae@psln.com>, Message-ID: <002d01d51be4$5d997850$18cc68f0$@gmail.com> In my case it was definitely NOT a case of the wrong ports being used. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kienan Maxfield Sent: Thursday, 6 June 2019 5:25 a.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch I have seen this problem and other similar problems many times. I saw one just last month that someone else was having trouble with. And with every single case that I’ve seen, the installer had accidentally neglected to ensure that the inverters are plugged into the correct ports. One of the Outback instruction manuals does say that the master inverter must be plugged into port one of the hub. In my own experience, if it’s not plugged into port one, all kinds of weird and strange problems arise. I would be only slightly surprised if Outback tech-support did not have you check that. I think that some of their techs don’t know the little details like that. On the Radian last month, I went over and switched the cables so that the Radian was plugged into port one, and it worked great after that. Just to keep things organized, I always ensure to put the master inverter in Port 1, the second inverter (first slave) in Port 2, etc., then put all the charge controllers after that. I don’t understand it, I just know that this is a good way to prevent strange and frustrating errors. Sometimes the ever occurs immediately, sometimes the error waits and happens after running a while. I have found this same issue with all Outback products, FX, Radian, FXR, etc. Thanks, Kienan 801-631-5584 On Jun 5, 2019, at 10:47 AM, William Miller wrote: Bill: I am not sure how your point applies. This occurs on systems that have been running for some time. I would hope equipment in this price range and this application does not need frequent rebooting. William On Jun 4, 2019, at 9:32 PM, frenergy wrote: Besides all the good info from Mac, there may be something to gain from following OB's sequence procedure for a proper complete system (all devices) shutdown and reboot. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 6/4/2019 4:04 PM, Bruce Geddes wrote: Don’t know about Radian but I had this issue with a dual stack VFXR system. After five visits to site (3 hours drive one way) Tech support eventually told me there had been a bad batch of comms boards on FXR’s but I had already swapped inverters out for VFX’s at last visit and issue ceased. Definitely some sort of comms glitch causing the Mate3 to loose info on devices. Best of luck from down under. Bruce Geddes PowerOn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Tuesday, 4 June 2019 3:00 p.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch William, We have experienced this same issue on various Outback systems, mainly on multi-stack fxr systems. I can't say I know or understand why this happens. To me, it makes sense that it's a communication error of some kind. What I've done with success: 1. Update all firmware, Mate, devices etc. 2. If a certain device (s) seems to have an issue, replace cables. 3. Apply terminal grease to all devices connections and Hub connections. So far, this approach has worked, but will eat a lot of man hours. Good luck, and please let us know if you find anything deeper out about this. On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 8:49 PM William Miller wrote: Friends: As part of my ongoing love/hate relationship with Outback, I have been occasionally receiving “Inverter firmware mismatch” warnings on some Radian systems. The firmware has not been changed. I was told it was bad data cables. I replaced all cables on one system only to receive more of the same warnings. Then, suddenly the error warnings quit. Now today another system is experiencing the same warnings. Does anyone know what this means and how to fix it? Thanks in advance. William _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Description: Image removed by sender. 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Wed Jun 5 20:45:24 2019 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 17:45:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider ac coupling time. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I still recommend using a relay triggered from the Aux for AC coupling, it works reliably and quickly. Brad AEE Solar On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 10:11 AM Kienan Maxfield wrote: > Jay, > > It waits 50 seconds to even start to try to shift the frequency. I don’t > know how long it takes to get up to get to 64 HZ. I heard somebody say that > they thought that the 50 second delay should be adjustable, but I could not > find a way to adjust it. I have not had a chance to talk to Schneider > tech-support about it since then. > > I had a problem with this on a job, by the time the Schneider would change > its frequency, the voltage would be way over an acceptable voltage. I had > to adjust the voltage setpoint down in order to try to shorten the delay. > That was not really a good workaround because how quickly the voltage rises > depends on the charge rate. > > I know that all of the delays and ramp up speeds and ramp down speeds are > fully user adjustable on outback equipment, I hope that Schneider has added > this adjustability by now... but last time I checked, I don’t think you > could. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > > > > On Jun 5, 2019, at 10:46 AM, jay wrote: > > > > > > HI All, > > > > I’ve got a project using lithium batteries and a big hydro. > > > > 4kw hydro > > 6.8kw schneider > > off grid > > AC coupled hydro > > > > The plan is to use a combination of ways to keep from overcharging the > batteries. > > > > 1. PWM diversion control load. If this doesn’t keep up then we go to #2 > > 2. AC couple HZ control and if that fails we go to #3 > > 3. SS relay control on GT inverter output via inverter control > > > > > > My question is this: Does anyone know the time between when the XW+ > sees the voltage and then gets to the 64hz for regulation? > > > > thanks > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jun 5 22:30:15 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 19:30:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing Xantrex GT 100 - AC grounded system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David We had a real issue with Hi-Q warranty replacements, it took months. Does this GT System have a combiner that you could go with any of the three phase inverters. Just a thought Jerry On Wed, Jun 5, 2019, 2:11 PM David Buckner wrote: > Hi all, > > We are working with a Xantrex GT 100 that appears on it's last legs. > Schneider shipped a matrix and we installed it but that didn't work. Now > they say we need to install a CCU and new motherboard. I believe I have > all this right. If there is a way to replace the whole inverter with a > legacy 600Vdc inverter instead, I'd do that. Any ideas on were to get > those? Solectria PVI 95 seems like it would work. Otherwise our engineer > could look at retrofitting the system with Hi-Q inverters. Any wisdom here > would be greatly appreciated! > > David > > > -- > David Buckner > President > > Solar Energy Systems, LLC. > 1205 Manhattan Avenue > Suite 1210 > Brooklyn, NY 11222-1058 > > ph 917-848-0215 > e dbuckner at solaresystems.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Jun 5 22:33:48 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 21:33:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 705.12.B.(3) (b) the over-current device protecting the bus-bar Message-ID: Can this overcurrent protection be the current limit of the inverter? I was challenged by a licensed professional engineer he said it is the circuit breaker, I said it is the inverter. I said I can put a 50 amp breaker into the circuit panel with a 200 Amp bus, (125% for continuous) on a 40 amp max output inverter. I.e a 9.6 kW inverter on 50 Amp breaker bus bar protected by inverter output. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Jun 6 09:22:47 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 09:22:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 705.12.B.(3) (b) the over-current device protecting the bus-bar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it is *705.12.B.(2)(3) (b) in 2017. *The inverter's OCPD must be at least 125% of the maximum continuous current output of the inverter. That is 40A x 1.25 = 50A. Then, the sum of the supply side sources, which is the Main Breaker _rating _PLUS 125% of the sum of the inverter(s)' _maximum continuous current output _must not exceed 120% of the busbar rating. With 200A busbar rating, you have room for 200 x 1.2 = 240A of supply side amperage as defined above.  240 - 200 (assumed main breaker rating) - 40 x 1.25 = -10A.  This means you have exceeded the allowance under this section.  Options are to decrease the Main Service breaker if a load calculation allows it, or the supply side option. I would take apart the Main Service Panel and get its rating. I often find a 200A panel has a 225A busbar. Then you would be ok interconnecting as you have thought.   Chris On 6/5/2019 10:33 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > Can this overcurrent protection be the current limit of the inverter? > I was challenged by a licensed professional engineer he said it is the > circuit breaker, I said it is the inverter.  I said I can put a 50 amp > breaker into the circuit panel with a 200 Amp bus, (125% for > continuous)  on a 40 amp max output inverter.  I.e  a 9.6 kW inverter > on 50 Amp breaker bus bar protected by inverter output. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 6 11:42:51 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 11:42:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ combiner for M series microinverters Message-ID: Does anyone see anything wrong with using an Enphase IQ combiner to combine two strings of IQ microinverters with two strings of M250 microinverters? I would not use the production CT (just use microinverter production data). I can't see any technical reason this can't be done. Do any listing or code reasons come to mind? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Thu Jun 6 11:54:18 2019 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2019 08:54:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ combiner for M series microinverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Only thing I see is you will have to have 2 Envoys. The IQ inverters send the data on the powered conductors, not on the neutral like the M250¹s. Chad Waits President/Owner ­ Net Zero Solar 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Office: 520-207-4053 Cell: 520-270-4873 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jason Szumlanski Reply-To: RE-wrenches Date: Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 8:42 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ combiner for M series microinverters Does anyone see anything wrong with using an Enphase IQ combiner to combine two strings of IQ microinverters with two strings of M250 microinverters? I would not use the production CT (just use microinverter production data). I can't see any technical reason this can't be done. Do any listing or code reasons come to mind? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Transparent-Logo Signature[1][4].png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Thu Jun 6 09:48:47 2019 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 13:48:47 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing Xantrex GT 100 - AC grounded system Message-ID: <114d50f4-7c1d-4b06-a832-ba8f874e7f52@email.android.com> Thanks Jerry. Yes, there is a single combiner box. I believe it's 49 strings of 11 Sunpower 220's, positive grounded. Regarding Hi-Q, how many failures did you have? Maybe we order some spares to limit downtime when one fails. Are they any better now that they're called Pro Harvest? David On Jun 5, 2019 10:30 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: David We had a real issue with Hi-Q warranty replacements, it took months. Does this GT System have a combiner that you could go with any of the three phase inverters. Just a thought Jerry On Wed, Jun 5, 2019, 2:11 PM David Buckner > wrote: Hi all, We are working with a Xantrex GT 100 that appears on it's last legs. Schneider shipped a matrix and we installed it but that didn't work. Now they say we need to install a CCU and new motherboard. I believe I have all this right. If there is a way to replace the whole inverter with a legacy 600Vdc inverter instead, I'd do that. Any ideas on were to get those? Solectria PVI 95 seems like it would work. Otherwise our engineer could look at retrofitting the system with Hi-Q inverters. Any wisdom here would be greatly appreciated! David -- David Buckner President Solar Energy Systems, LLC. 1205 Manhattan Avenue Suite 1210 Brooklyn, NY 11222-1058 ph 917-848-0215 e dbuckner at solaresystems.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Thu Jun 6 12:21:55 2019 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 16:21:55 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing Xantrex GT 100 - Positive grounded system Message-ID: Apologies, the Subject line should read Positive grounded, not AC grounded. I changed it. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of David Buckner Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 9:49 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing Xantrex GT 100 - AC grounded system Thanks Jerry. Yes, there is a single combiner box. I believe it's 49 strings of 11 Sunpower 220's, positive grounded. Regarding Hi-Q, how many failures did you have? Maybe we order some spares to limit downtime when one fails. Are they any better now that they're called Pro Harvest? David On Jun 5, 2019 10:30 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: David We had a real issue with Hi-Q warranty replacements, it took months. Does this GT System have a combiner that you could go with any of the three phase inverters. Just a thought Jerry On Wed, Jun 5, 2019, 2:11 PM David Buckner > wrote: Hi all, We are working with a Xantrex GT 100 that appears on it's last legs. Schneider shipped a matrix and we installed it but that didn't work. Now they say we need to install a CCU and new motherboard. I believe I have all this right. If there is a way to replace the whole inverter with a legacy 600Vdc inverter instead, I'd do that. Any ideas on were to get those? Solectria PVI 95 seems like it would work. Otherwise our engineer could look at retrofitting the system with Hi-Q inverters. Any wisdom here would be greatly appreciated! David -- David Buckner President Solar Energy Systems, LLC. 1205 Manhattan Avenue Suite 1210 Brooklyn, NY 11222-1058 ph 917-848-0215 e dbuckner at solaresystems.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jun 6 13:08:55 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 10:08:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing Xantrex GT 100 - AC grounded system In-Reply-To: <114d50f4-7c1d-4b06-a832-ba8f874e7f52@email.android.com> References: <114d50f4-7c1d-4b06-a832-ba8f874e7f52@email.android.com> Message-ID: David We had a very high Hi-Q failure rate and the test h said we three options,1, in advance send in the failed unit. Wait till one is available to release to the RMA, 3, buy extras so we dont need to wait and they had plenty in stock to sell but not to be the RMA. That really was my final straw. You might want to look at segmentating the combiner and going with manageable inverters, what AC side voltage are you running. Jerry On Thu, Jun 6, 2019, 9:15 AM David Buckner wrote: > Thanks Jerry. Yes, there is a single combiner box. I believe it's 49 > strings of 11 Sunpower 220's, positive grounded. > > Regarding Hi-Q, how many failures did you have? Maybe we order some > spares to limit downtime when one fails. Are they any better now that > they're called Pro Harvest? > > David > > On Jun 5, 2019 10:30 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > David > We had a real issue with Hi-Q warranty replacements, it took months. Does > this GT System have a combiner that you could go with any of the three > phase inverters. Just a thought > Jerry > > On Wed, Jun 5, 2019, 2:11 PM David Buckner > wrote: > > Hi all, > > We are working with a Xantrex GT 100 that appears on it's last legs. > Schneider shipped a matrix and we installed it but that didn't work. Now > they say we need to install a CCU and new motherboard. I believe I have > all this right. If there is a way to replace the whole inverter with a > legacy 600Vdc inverter instead, I'd do that. Any ideas on were to get > those? Solectria PVI 95 seems like it would work. Otherwise our engineer > could look at retrofitting the system with Hi-Q inverters. Any wisdom here > would be greatly appreciated! > > David > > > -- > David Buckner > President > > Solar Energy Systems, LLC. > 1205 Manhattan Avenue > Suite 1210 > Brooklyn, NY 11222-1058 > > ph 917-848-0215 > e dbuckner at solaresystems.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 6 14:34:19 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 14:34:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ combiner for M series microinverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, correct. The M Series Envoy would be plugged in elsewhere, close to the IQ Combiner. The situation is that a customer already has a combo system installed by some clown with all wrong wire sizes, OCPD, disconnects, and interconnection on the load side of a whole house generator. It's a mess and I'm starting over. I literally had to remove ALL of the panels and mounts for a re-roof because it was done so poorly and the roof is leaking now. Anyway, the cleanest way to combine all the circuits is to bring all 4 circuits in one conduit into an IQ Combiner and just use that combine into one supply-side connection with a fusible disconnect. The M Series neutrals can just pass through the IQ Combiner (plus one for the IQ Envoy). It would supply the required OCPD protection. I guess my main concern is whether this device is listed for use only as an IQ system combiner only or if the individual components are listed, which would allow this setup for sure I would imagine. Jason On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 11:54 AM Chad Waits wrote: > Only thing I see is you will have to have 2 Envoys. The IQ inverters send > the data on the powered conductors, not on the neutral like the M250’s. > > Chad Waits > President/Owner – Net Zero Solar > 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 > Office: 520-207-4053 > Cell: 520-270-4873 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jason Szumlanski > Reply-To: RE-wrenches > Date: Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 8:42 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ combiner for M series microinverters > > Does anyone see anything wrong with using an Enphase IQ combiner to > combine two strings of IQ microinverters with two strings of M250 > microinverters? I would not use the production CT (just use microinverter > production data). > > I can't see any technical reason this can't be done. Do any listing or > code reasons come to mind? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or > update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Transparent-Logo Signature[1][4].png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Thu Jun 6 16:04:54 2019 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 20:04:54 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing Xantrex GT 100 - AC grounded system Message-ID: Thank you, Jerry. It's 480Vac. On Jun 6, 2019 1:09 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: David We had a very high Hi-Q failure rate and the test h said we three options,1, in advance send in the failed unit. Wait till one is available to release to the RMA, 3, buy extras so we dont need to wait and they had plenty in stock to sell but not to be the RMA. That really was my final straw. You might want to look at segmentating the combiner and going with manageable inverters, what AC side voltage are you running. Jerry On Thu, Jun 6, 2019, 9:15 AM David Buckner > wrote: Thanks Jerry. Yes, there is a single combiner box. I believe it's 49 strings of 11 Sunpower 220's, positive grounded. Regarding Hi-Q, how many failures did you have? Maybe we order some spares to limit downtime when one fails. Are they any better now that they're called Pro Harvest? David On Jun 5, 2019 10:30 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: David We had a real issue with Hi-Q warranty replacements, it took months. Does this GT System have a combiner that you could go with any of the three phase inverters. Just a thought Jerry On Wed, Jun 5, 2019, 2:11 PM David Buckner > wrote: Hi all, We are working with a Xantrex GT 100 that appears on it's last legs. Schneider shipped a matrix and we installed it but that didn't work. Now they say we need to install a CCU and new motherboard. I believe I have all this right. If there is a way to replace the whole inverter with a legacy 600Vdc inverter instead, I'd do that. Any ideas on were to get those? Solectria PVI 95 seems like it would work. Otherwise our engineer could look at retrofitting the system with Hi-Q inverters. Any wisdom here would be greatly appreciated! David -- David Buckner President Solar Energy Systems, LLC. 1205 Manhattan Avenue Suite 1210 Brooklyn, NY 11222-1058 ph 917-848-0215 e dbuckner at solaresystems.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Fri Jun 7 19:07:07 2019 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 13:07:07 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skybox Message-ID: Wrenches, Anybody out there installed the Skybox? If so, what do you think? I know a couple folks had some pending installs last time this subject was brought up. Thanks for your time and insight. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at willpowerelect.com Sun Jun 9 17:03:00 2019 From: bruce at willpowerelect.com (bruce at willpowerelect.com) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2019 14:03:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch Message-ID: <20190609140300.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.d92d389980.wbe@email26.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/jpeg Size: 4536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Mon Jun 10 16:50:33 2019 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 20:50:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing Xantrex GT 100 - Positive grounded system Message-ID: Circling back on this, it was suggested I check out this company: http://alenconsystems.com/news/alencon-solectria/ Pretty interesting. First we're going to try changing the motherboard and getting the GT100 back up and running, but if that doesn't work maybe we'll give this a try. David From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of David Buckner Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 4:05 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing Xantrex GT 100 - AC grounded system Thank you, Jerry. It's 480Vac. On Jun 6, 2019 1:09 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: David We had a very high Hi-Q failure rate and the test h said we three options,1, in advance send in the failed unit. Wait till one is available to release to the RMA, 3, buy extras so we dont need to wait and they had plenty in stock to sell but not to be the RMA. That really was my final straw. You might want to look at segmentating the combiner and going with manageable inverters, what AC side voltage are you running. Jerry On Thu, Jun 6, 2019, 9:15 AM David Buckner > wrote: Thanks Jerry. Yes, there is a single combiner box. I believe it's 49 strings of 11 Sunpower 220's, positive grounded. Regarding Hi-Q, how many failures did you have? Maybe we order some spares to limit downtime when one fails. Are they any better now that they're called Pro Harvest? David On Jun 5, 2019 10:30 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: David We had a real issue with Hi-Q warranty replacements, it took months. Does this GT System have a combiner that you could go with any of the three phase inverters. Just a thought Jerry On Wed, Jun 5, 2019, 2:11 PM David Buckner > wrote: Hi all, We are working with a Xantrex GT 100 that appears on it's last legs. Schneider shipped a matrix and we installed it but that didn't work. Now they say we need to install a CCU and new motherboard. I believe I have all this right. If there is a way to replace the whole inverter with a legacy 600Vdc inverter instead, I'd do that. Any ideas on were to get those? Solectria PVI 95 seems like it would work. Otherwise our engineer could look at retrofitting the system with Hi-Q inverters. Any wisdom here would be greatly appreciated! David -- David Buckner President Solar Energy Systems, LLC. 1205 Manhattan Avenue Suite 1210 Brooklyn, NY 11222-1058 ph 917-848-0215 e dbuckner at solaresystems.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Jun 11 17:38:05 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 17:38:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low OC Voltage Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Would you expect a low open circuit voltage in a module to be due to a problem in the J-box / diodes or the module itself? The OC voltage read about 28.3 V, where as the STC OC voltage of the module is 37.3. The module is an LDK 240, which means no warranty. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Tue Jun 11 19:42:07 2019 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 16:42:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low OC Voltage In-Reply-To: <20190611230506.753EE107253@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20190611230506.753EE107253@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: You’re losing about a third of your voltage so one cell bank is out of the circuit. Either a shorted closed diode (more likely IMHO) or fully open connections somewhere in a cell bank (probably visible if between cells, if in the jbox, well it depends on the jbox). If you short circuit the module, or connect it to a load, and with enough irradiance, you should be able to see the diode heat up with an IR camera or maybe even locate it - or the associated cell bank, which will also be hotter than the two good ones - with another type of temperature sensor. If you can access the diode and isolate it, most DMMs have a diode year function. Brian > On Jun 11, 2019, at 2:38 PM, Drake wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Would you expect a low open circuit voltage in a module to be due to a problem in the J-box / diodes or the module itself? The OC voltage read about 28.3 V, where as the STC OC voltage of the module is 37.3. > > The module is an LDK 240, which means no warranty. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Wed Jun 12 14:49:41 2019 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 14:49:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] need for outdoor DC disconnect Message-ID: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> All, I am retrofitting an existing PV system with Storedge / LG Chem / optimizers and updating some code issues. I am replacing the PVC conduit carrying the array conductors into the building with metallic raceway to the point of DC disconnect(i.e. the inverter). The array is presently connected to an Outback inverter / FM60 controller / AGM batteries (grid tied with backup). If I am interpreting NEC 690.12 etc. correctly, a DC disconnect outdoors is generally not required because of new rapid shutdown capability, amongst other reasons. Would this be the case regardless of metal or plastic conduit penetrating the building? The system at present has no outdoor DC disco, and to me that's a violation in addition to lack of metallic raceway entering the building. Thanks. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 28th Anniversary 1991-2019 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Jun 12 16:23:49 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 14:23:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] need for outdoor DC disconnect In-Reply-To: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Are you required to meet the latest code?  In many retrofit/ replacement situations, you are only required to meet the code requirements of the date the original system was installed.  Metal vs PVC is dependent on the code version you are meeting.  Was metal a NEC 2008 requirement? I don't have my old code versions here.   When metal is required, its only from the point of entry into the building to the inverter, so if you mount the inverter outdoors, it doesn't have to change either.  I've got lots of legacy systems that have PVC  on the inside, and never had an issue.  Seems like more trouble to change out than its worth, but if the AHJ requires it, then yes. Also, you didn't mention if the array was roof or ground mounted, which would effect the 690.12 interpretation. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/12/19 12:49 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > All, > > I am retrofitting an existing PV system with Storedge / LG Chem / > optimizers and updating some code issues. I am replacing the PVC > conduit carrying the array conductors into the building with metallic > raceway to the point of DC disconnect(i.e. the inverter).  The array > is presently connected to an Outback inverter / FM60 controller / AGM > batteries (grid tied with backup). If I am interpreting NEC 690.12 > etc. correctly, a DC disconnect outdoors is generally not required > because of new rapid shutdown capability, amongst other reasons. Would > this be the case regardless of metal or plastic conduit penetrating > the building? The system at present has no outdoor DC disco, and to me > that’s a violation in addition to lack of metallic raceway entering > the building. Thanks. > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > */Celebrating our 28^th Anniversary 1991-2019/* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com > * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEP^TM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Wed Jun 12 17:34:49 2019 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 17:34:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] need for outdoor DC disconnect In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> I am not required to meet 2017 code. In Florida, they are only up to the 2011 code. I want to bring it up to NEC2017 regardless. So for my questions, assume the 2017 code is relevant. And it is a flat carport roof, the rack is mounted at a fixed tilt of about 20 degrees. Understood? From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 4:24 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] need for outdoor DC disconnect Are you required to meet the latest code? In many retrofit/ replacement situations, you are only required to meet the code requirements of the date the original system was installed. Metal vs PVC is dependent on the code version you are meeting. Was metal a NEC 2008 requirement? I don't have my old code versions here. When metal is required, its only from the point of entry into the building to the inverter, so if you mount the inverter outdoors, it doesn't have to change either. I've got lots of legacy systems that have PVC on the inside, and never had an issue. Seems like more trouble to change out than its worth, but if the AHJ requires it, then yes. Also, you didn't mention if the array was roof or ground mounted, which would effect the 690.12 interpretation. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/12/19 12:49 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: All, I am retrofitting an existing PV system with Storedge / LG Chem / optimizers and updating some code issues. I am replacing the PVC conduit carrying the array conductors into the building with metallic raceway to the point of DC disconnect(i.e. the inverter). The array is presently connected to an Outback inverter / FM60 controller / AGM batteries (grid tied with backup). If I am interpreting NEC 690.12 etc. correctly, a DC disconnect outdoors is generally not required because of new rapid shutdown capability, amongst other reasons. Would this be the case regardless of metal or plastic conduit penetrating the building? The system at present has no outdoor DC disco, and to me that's a violation in addition to lack of metallic raceway entering the building. Thanks. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 28th Anniversary 1991-2019 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Jun 13 00:36:52 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 21:36:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall?  Many times at the end of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW P8).  I like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough clearance once the rail and panels are installed.  The sawzall works but I'm looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too fast and cuts without too much vibration.  Other ideas? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jun 13 00:39:51 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 18:39:51 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Porta band saw works great, Milwaukee has a nice one Jerry On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 6:32 PM frenergy wrote: > Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall? Many times at the end > of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW P8). I > like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough clearance > once the rail and panels are installed. The sawzall works but I'm > looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too fast and cuts > without too much vibration. Other ideas? > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Jun 13 00:51:51 2019 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 22:51:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Portaband saw. Mine's Makita. Touch up any sharp edges with a file or grinder. Sawzalls are my least favorite tool in the truck....for anything. Dan Fink Director of Solar Education, Greendustrial Training LLC IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP PV Associate Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com 970-672-4342 On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 10:40 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Porta band saw works great, Milwaukee has a nice one > Jerry > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 6:32 PM frenergy wrote: > >> Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall? Many times at the end >> of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW P8). I >> like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough clearance >> once the rail and panels are installed. The sawzall works but I'm >> looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too fast and cuts >> without too much vibration. Other ideas? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Thu Jun 13 01:24:08 2019 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 22:24:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Just like the other gents mentioned...but I would add...get the saw blade with 10 teeth per inch....will not clog up with the soft aluminum. You will love the saw for cutting conduit too. All done relatively quietly without all the jarring. Kirpal On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 9:32 PM frenergy wrote: > Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall? Many times at the end > of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW P8). I > like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough clearance > once the rail and panels are installed. The sawzall works but I'm > looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too fast and cuts > without too much vibration. Other ideas? > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From djibrilfall at gmail.com Thu Jun 13 08:02:00 2019 From: djibrilfall at gmail.com (James "Jibril" Gustafson) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 06:02:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> Message-ID: I often cut rail ends with my cordless Dewalt circular saw. It makes a nice straight cut, after marking the rail with a sharpie and speed square. Ear and Eye protection are crucial. On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 11:24 PM Kirpal wrote: > Just like the other gents mentioned...but I would add...get the saw blade > with 10 teeth per inch....will not clog up with the soft aluminum. You > will love the saw for cutting conduit too. All done relatively quietly > without all the jarring. > Kirpal > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 9:32 PM frenergy wrote: > >> Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall? Many times at the end >> of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW P8). I >> like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough clearance >> once the rail and panels are installed. The sawzall works but I'm >> looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too fast and cuts >> without too much vibration. Other ideas? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From djibrilfall at gmail.com Thu Jun 13 08:20:45 2019 From: djibrilfall at gmail.com (James "Jibril" Gustafson) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 06:20:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Sometimes there is not enough clearance to complete the cut with the circular saw, then I finish with a cordless Sawzall. I try not to push the saw down, just let it do the work. On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 6:02 AM James "Jibril" Gustafson < djibrilfall at gmail.com> wrote: > I often cut rail ends with my cordless Dewalt circular saw. It makes a > nice straight cut, after marking the rail with a sharpie and speed square. > Ear and Eye protection are crucial. > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 11:24 PM Kirpal wrote: > >> Just like the other gents mentioned...but I would add...get the saw blade >> with 10 teeth per inch....will not clog up with the soft aluminum. You >> will love the saw for cutting conduit too. All done relatively quietly >> without all the jarring. >> Kirpal >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 9:32 PM frenergy wrote: >> >>> Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall? Many times at the end >>> of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW P8). I >>> like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough clearance >>> once the rail and panels are installed. The sawzall works but I'm >>> looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too fast and cuts >>> without too much vibration. Other ideas? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> --- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Thu Jun 13 08:47:29 2019 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 06:47:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <35BFD07D-1B2C-4D61-B5B8-4AFA8D078252@skyfireenergy.com> I’ve been looking at picking up a portable bandsaw, likely Makita but a reciprocating saw has served me very well over the years. If you hold the edge of the cutting guard against the end-clamp you can get a nice uniform inch and a half or so of rail past the clamp. Using a circular saw leaves too much rail for my liking unless you Measure and cut the rail before laying down the last module. I prefer cutting blades with at least 14 TPI (teeth per inch). The cutting teeth will get gummed up with aluminum when it gets too hot so you have to check it at least after cutting each rail and pick out any gummed up spots with your linesman. I would Also recommend getting some of this…https://www.zoro.com/bio-circle-coolcut-lubricant-300g-solid-stick-pk12-53b013/i/G0934138/?REVIEW_DISPLAY_SNAPSHOT_TYPE=SIMPLE … And putting a bit on your blades when cutting. I always use this on metal sawblades and when drilling into metal especially using a Uni bit. Tell everyone on the crew to get them selves a small used tin and keep some of this handy. A tube of this should last years. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Jun 12, 2019, at 10:36 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall? Many times at the end of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW P8). I like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough clearance once the rail and panels are installed. The sawzall works but I'm looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too fast and cuts without too much vibration. Other ideas? > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Thu Jun 13 09:07:51 2019 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 06:07:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Handheld battery powered bandsaw. Works great. We have the DeWalt version. Chad Waits President/Owner ­ Net Zero Solar 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Office: 520-207-4053 Cell: 520-270-4873 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional From: RE-wrenches on behalf of "James \"Jibril\" Gustafson" Reply-To: RE-wrenches Date: Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 5:20 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail Sometimes there is not enough clearance to complete the cut with the circular saw, then I finish with a cordless Sawzall. I try not to push the saw down, just let it do the work. On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 6:02 AM James "Jibril" Gustafson wrote: > I often cut rail ends with my cordless Dewalt circular saw. It makes a nice > straight cut, after marking the rail with a sharpie and speed square. Ear and > Eye protection are crucial. > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 11:24 PM Kirpal wrote: >> Just like the other gents mentioned...but I would add...get the saw blade >> with 10 teeth per inch....will not clog up with the soft aluminum. You will >> love the saw for cutting conduit too. All done relatively quietly without >> all the jarring. >> Kirpal >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 9:32 PM frenergy wrote: >>> Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall? Many times at the end >>> of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW P8). I >>> like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough clearance >>> once the rail and panels are installed. The sawzall works but I'm >>> looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too fast and cuts >>> without too much vibration. Other ideas? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> --- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Transparent-Logo Signature[1].png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Jun 13 09:25:39 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 09:25:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low OC Voltage In-Reply-To: <20190611230506.D8243107696@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20190611230506.D8243107696@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Drake, At what temperature did you get that reading? If it was very hot, then that could just be poor temperature characteristics of the module. I have run into some modules, specifically Suniva's, that just do very poorly in warm temperatures. Otherwise, if the voltage is approximately 2/3 of what you would expect, then it is usually an issue in the module jbox. Either a bad diode or failed solder connection. This case is odd, because it is a little bit more than 2/3 the voltage. So maybe it was very cold with 1/3 the module not working, or very hot. Also, taking a look with an IR camera when the system is functioning can often show if 1/3 the module is not working or if there are some bad cells in the module. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 7:05 PM Drake wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Would you expect a low open circuit voltage in a module to be due to a > problem in the J-box / diodes or the module itself? The OC voltage read > about 28.3 V, where as the STC OC voltage of the module is 37.3. > > The module is an LDK 240, which means no warranty. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Jun 13 09:46:12 2019 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 07:46:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail Message-ID: <002c01d521ee$5e60c170$1b224450$@solarwork.com> We have had happy times with our [3] Milwaukee portable band saws both corded & battery powered. Happily, cuts; Rail, Unistrut, EMT, PVC, MC, etc. Call me lazy but there is nothing like a portable band saw on site. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 10:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail Porta band saw works great, Milwaukee has a nice one Jerry On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 6:32 PM frenergy > wrote: Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall? Many times at the end of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW P8). I like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough clearance once the rail and panels are installed. The sawzall works but I'm looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too fast and cuts without too much vibration. Other ideas? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu Jun 13 09:47:49 2019 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 13:47:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com>, Message-ID: Pre cut the rails at ground level with your circular saw. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Jun 12, 2019, at 11:32 PM, frenergy > wrote: Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall? Many times at the end of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW P8). I like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough clearance once the rail and panels are installed. The sawzall works but I'm looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too fast and cuts without too much vibration. Other ideas? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Thu Jun 13 12:01:22 2019 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 16:01:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] How much rail to leave behind and skirts References: <1097111629.689282.1560441682995.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1097111629.689282.1560441682995@mail.yahoo.com> Speaking of rails...  What are thoughts about how much rail to leave sticking out from an array.  It seems the industry has moved towards trying to make the rails invisible by designing them to be cut at the edges of an array. I don't like this practice and try to leave at least 4 - 6 inches sticking out.  The reason for this is to make it easier for those who follow when the roof needs re-roofing.     We also don't install skirts as we believe this hurts the efficiency of the system... but are open to hearing the contrary. Smiles,  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 13 10:37:05 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 07:37:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: <35BFD07D-1B2C-4D61-B5B8-4AFA8D078252@skyfireenergy.com> References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> <35BFD07D-1B2C-4D61-B5B8-4AFA8D078252@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <6839E99E-952F-4405-A223-28E0C1527C33@gmail.com> Hi Benn, I bought a makita band saw some years ago, I can’t believe how it changed my use of metal. Cutting metal is so easy, quiet and clean, no vibration. Less burrs than sawzall too. As to the original question, If you want to leave a short tail then the band saw works fine for that. If you want flush, then before the last module goes down, measure and cut rail, then install the module. Jay > On Jun 13, 2019, at 5:47 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > I’ve been looking at picking up a portable bandsaw, likely Makita but a reciprocating saw has served me very well over the years. If you hold the edge of the cutting guard against the end-clamp you can get a nice uniform inch and a half or so of rail past the clamp. Using a circular saw leaves too much rail for my liking unless you Measure and cut the rail before laying down the last module. > I prefer cutting blades with at least 14 TPI (teeth per inch). > The cutting teeth will get gummed up with aluminum when it gets too hot so you have to check it at least after cutting each rail and pick out any gummed up spots with your linesman. > > I would Also recommend getting some of this…https://www.zoro.com/bio-circle-coolcut-lubricant-300g-solid-stick-pk12-53b013/i/G0934138/?REVIEW_DISPLAY_SNAPSHOT_TYPE=SIMPLE … And putting a bit on your blades when cutting. I always use this on metal sawblades and when drilling into metal especially using a Uni bit. > Tell everyone on the crew to get them selves a small used tin and keep some of this handy. > A tube of this should last years. > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > >> On Jun 12, 2019, at 10:36 PM, frenergy wrote: >> >> Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall? Many times at the end of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW P8). I like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough clearance once the rail and panels are installed. The sawzall works but I'm looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too fast and cuts without too much vibration. Other ideas? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Jun 13 12:14:29 2019 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 10:14:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Message-ID: <01a901d52203$14e6e460$3eb4ad20$@OasisMontana.com> Dear people: Now that Zomeworks is more-or-less down the tubes, what resources do you have for a residential tracking system? Wattsun’s ‘one size fits all’ really doesn’t (and I don’t need a need a lecture of ROI for buying more modules versus a tracker). I’m just wondering if there are more options besides the utility grade models. We have a great pole mount supplier – but some folks want a tracker. I’m looking forward to your responses. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Jun 13 12:46:58 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 12:46:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options In-Reply-To: <01a901d52203$14e6e460$3eb4ad20$@OasisMontana.com> References: <01a901d52203$14e6e460$3eb4ad20$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Chris, We have used AER for trackers. We've had good success with them. https://www.allearthrenewables.com/product/allearth-solar-trackers Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 12:40 PM wrote: > Dear people: > > Now that Zomeworks is more-or-less down the tubes, what resources do you > have for a residential tracking system? Wattsun’s ‘one size fits all’ > really doesn’t (and I don’t need a need a lecture of ROI for buying more > modules versus a tracker). I’m just wondering if there are more options > besides the utility grade models. We have a great pole mount supplier – > but some folks want a tracker. I’m looking forward to your responses. > > Best, > > Chris Daum > > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > > 406-777-4309 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jun 13 12:48:34 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 10:48:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> Message-ID: We love our cordless Milwaukee Portaband.  We've cut Schedule 80 6" pipe with ours, just working around a bit at a time.  We got the 10 to 14 variable tooth blade, cuts incredibly fast, but leaves a cleaner edge. Once you use a Portaband cordless, you are never going to use a sawzall or circ. saw for cutting rails unless you have to.  Safety is vastly improved, and you can't argue safety. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/12/19 11:24 PM, Kirpal wrote: > Just like the other gents mentioned...but I would add...get the saw > blade with 10 teeth per inch....will not clog up with the soft > aluminum.   You will love the saw for cutting conduit too.  All done > relatively quietly without all the jarring. > Kirpal > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 9:32 PM frenergy > wrote: > > Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall?  Many times at > the end > of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW P8).  I > like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough > clearance > once the rail and panels are installed.  The sawzall works but I'm > looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too fast > and cuts > without too much vibration.  Other ideas? > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Jun 13 13:00:40 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 10:00:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> Message-ID: I'll chime in on the cordless bandsaw revolution - they're the best! We have been using DeWalt 20v products and they make both a large deep-cut version and a smaller version. The large bandsaw is great for the roof and the small one is great for electrical work such as cutting conduit (like butter). Each of our crews has one of each. Best, August Luminalt On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 9:48 AM Ray wrote: > We love our cordless Milwaukee Portaband. We've cut Schedule 80 6" pipe > with ours, just working around a bit at a time. We got the 10 to 14 > variable tooth blade, cuts incredibly fast, but leaves a cleaner edge. > > Once you use a Portaband cordless, you are never going to use a sawzall or > circ. saw for cutting rails unless you have to. Safety is vastly improved, > and you can't argue safety. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 6/12/19 11:24 PM, Kirpal wrote: > > Just like the other gents mentioned...but I would add...get the saw blade > with 10 teeth per inch....will not clog up with the soft aluminum. You > will love the saw for cutting conduit too. All done relatively quietly > without all the jarring. > Kirpal > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 9:32 PM frenergy wrote: > >> Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall? Many times at the end >> of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW P8). I >> like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough clearance >> once the rail and panels are installed. The sawzall works but I'm >> looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too fast and cuts >> without too much vibration. Other ideas? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at mendocinosolar.com Thu Jun 13 13:18:22 2019 From: bruce at mendocinosolar.com (Bruce Erickson) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 10:18:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: <002c01d521ee$5e60c170$1b224450$@solarwork.com> References: <002c01d521ee$5e60c170$1b224450$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: We use either SunPower InvisiMount or IronRidge with the CAMO hidden end clamp. Both need flush cuts to the module. In either case, we lay the last module in place and carefully scribe the cut line flush with the module, lift the module and cut with a Milwaukee bandsaw. If you cut before you place the last module, you can have full access for the cut even with a circular saw. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax bruce at mendocinosolar.com Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994 > On Jun 13, 2019, at 6:46 AM, Dana wrote: > > We have had happy times with our [3] Milwaukee portable band saws both corded & battery powered. Happily, cuts; Rail, Unistrut, EMT, PVC, MC, etc. Call me lazy but there is nothing like a portable band saw on site. > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 10:40 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail > > Porta band saw works great, Milwaukee has a nice one > Jerry > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 6:32 PM frenergy > wrote: >> Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall? Many times at the end >> of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW P8). I >> like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough clearance >> once the rail and panels are installed. The sawzall works but I'm >> looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too fast and cuts >> without too much vibration. Other ideas? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Jun 13 14:13:14 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 14:13:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Message-ID: I see a lot of AllEarth Renewables trackers here in the Northeast.Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone------ Original message------From: chris at OasisMontana.comDate: Thu, Jun 13, 2019 12:40 PMTo: 'RE-wrenches';Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Residential tracker optionsDear people:Now that Zomeworks is more-or-less down the tubes, what resources do you have for a residential tracking system?  Wattsun’s ‘one size fits all’ really doesn’t (and I don’t need a need a lecture of ROI for buying more modules versus a tracker).  I’m just wondering if there are more options besides the utility grade models.  We have a great pole mount supplier – but some folks want a tracker.  I’m looking forward to your responses.Best,Chris Daum                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Oasis Montana Inc.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           406-777-4309   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Thu Jun 13 15:09:10 2019 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 13:09:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail Message-ID: Hello, Team~ This fine discussion has me considering a cordless bandsaw (28v Milwaukee). Can those who own a burly cordless bandsaw report if it's also productive on mild steel? We'll need to saw some C-purlin, square tubing, etc. in steel & using a grit wheel on a chop saw is harsh. Thanks in advance, Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Jun 13 15:35:24 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 15:35:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have been installing ArrayTech. They have a 12 to 16 module single axis tracker that can be manually adjusted, or automatically adjusted.  I can send you pictures if you contact me off line.  Chris > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *chris at OasisMontana.com > *Date: *Thu, Jun 13, 2019 12:40 PM > *To: *'RE-wrenches'; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options > > Dear people: > > Now that Zomeworks is more-or-less down the tubes, what resources do > you have for a residential tracking system?Wattsun’s ‘one size fits > all’ really doesn’t (and I don’t need a need a lecture of ROI for > buying more modules versus a tracker).I’m just wondering if there are > more options besides the utility grade models. We have a great pole > mount supplier – but some folks want a tracker. I’m looking forward to > your responses. > > Best, > > Chris > Daum                                                               & > nbsp;                       &nb > sp;                                                                                                                                                                     &nbs > p; Oasis Montana Inc.                     &nbs p; >                       &n bsp; 406-777-4309 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jun 13 16:31:08 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 14:31:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have the 18v Milwaukee, smallest model, and I cut steel pipe up to 6" with it  (working it around).  Its almost as fast as my shop band saw.  I use Bi metal blades with variable pitch teeth.  Its much better than a chop saw, less noise, no sparks, no smell... It will do great on steel.  Faster and cleaner than a torch or anything else.  Even with the 18 v model, I can get dozens of cuts.  I recently did a ground mount with SCH 40 1-1/2" pipe, and it took maybe 15 minutes to do a couple dozen cuts. The biggest problem I had early on was figuring out how to hold it to get a straight cut.  It sort of needs a gun sight to line up with the blade to keep it square to the material. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/13/19 1:09 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: > Hello, Team~ This fine discussion has me considering a cordless > bandsaw (28v Milwaukee). > > Can those who own a burly cordless bandsaw report if it's also > productive on mild steel? > We'll need to saw some C-purlin, square tubing, etc. in steel & using > a grit wheel on a chop saw is harsh. > > Thanks in advance, > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 13 15:10:46 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 12:10:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options In-Reply-To: References: <01a901d52203$14e6e460$3eb4ad20$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <3698a795f7773605c9c789f1305edc85@127.0.0.1> Have you looked at the Wattsun HZLA? No ladders and with the right module about 5KW tracked. Perfect for long hours of cooling or pumping. http://www.wattsun.com/products/accutrak-hzla-tracker [1] Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [3] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 12:46:58 -0400, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Chris, We have used AER for trackers. We've had good success with them. https://www.allearthrenewables.com/product/allearth-solar-trackers [4] Cheers, Dave DAVE TEDEYAN, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com [5] Solar * Sustainability * Energy * Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 12:40 PM wrote: Dear people: Now that Zomeworks is more-or-less down the tubes, what resources do you have for a residential tracking system? Wattsun's 'one size fits all' really doesn't (and I don't need a need a lecture of ROI for buying more modules versus a tracker). I'm just wondering if there are more options besides the utility grade models. We have a great pole mount supplier - but some folks want a tracker. I'm looking forward to your responses. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] -- Links: ------ [1] http://www.wattsun.com/products/accutrak-hzla-tracker [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] https://www.allearthrenewables.com/product/allearth-solar-trackers [5] http://www.taitem.com [6] mailto:chris at oasismontana.com [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Jun 13 15:56:50 2019 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 14:56:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007201d52222$24155d30$6c401790$@solarcentex.com> Works great on all. Keep lots of blades on hand. Scot Arey Solar Centex From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mick Abraham Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 2:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail Hello, Team~ This fine discussion has me considering a cordless bandsaw (28v Milwaukee). Can those who own a burly cordless bandsaw report if it's also productive on mild steel? We'll need to saw some C-purlin, square tubing, etc. in steel & using a grit wheel on a chop saw is harsh. Thanks in advance, Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jun 13 17:28:37 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 11:28:37 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a Milwaukee and it cuts 2" steel pipe all the time use the 10-14 blade, have extra batteries if your cutting all day Jerry On Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 9:09 AM Mick Abraham wrote: > Hello, Team~ This fine discussion has me considering a cordless bandsaw > (28v Milwaukee). > > Can those who own a burly cordless bandsaw report if it's also productive > on mild steel? > We'll need to saw some C-purlin, square tubing, etc. in steel & using a > grit wheel on a chop saw is harsh. > > Thanks in advance, > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Jun 13 19:41:21 2019 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 17:41:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c801d52241$82b05330$8810f990$@solarwork.com> Mick, Be Aware the 28 volt seems to be getting phased out, I am not 100% sure on this. I bought a lot of 28 Volt Milwaukee gear: 1 – its heavy & 2 – I don’t seem to see it for sale any where I switched to the 18 volt Milwaukee tools & there is an 18 volt portaband. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mick Abraham Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 1:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail Hello, Team~ This fine discussion has me considering a cordless bandsaw (28v Milwaukee). Can those who own a burly cordless bandsaw report if it's also productive on mild steel? We'll need to saw some C-purlin, square tubing, etc. in steel & using a grit wheel on a chop saw is harsh. Thanks in advance, Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Jun 13 18:31:30 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 18:31:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low OC Voltage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The outside temperature was unseasonably cool, maybe 55 degrees. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 09:25:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low OC Voltage Drake, At what temperature did you get that reading? If it was very hot, then that could just be poor temperature characteristics of the module. I have run into some modules, specifically Suniva's, that just do very poorly in warm temperatures. Otherwise, if the voltage is approximately 2/3 of what you would expect, then it is usually an issue in the module jbox. Either a bad diode or failed solder connection. This case is odd, because it is a little bit more than 2/3 the voltage. So maybe it was very cold with 1/3 the module not working, or very hot. Also, taking a look with an IR camera when the system is functioning can often show if 1/3 the module is not working or if there are some bad cells in the module. Cheers,  Dave DAVE TEDEYAN, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street  | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121   f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com [1] Solar  •   Sustainability  •  Energy  •  Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 7:05 PM Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, Would you expect a low open circuit voltage in a module to be due to a problem in the J-box / diodes or the module itself? The OC voltage read about 28.3 V, where as the STC OC voltage of the module is 37.3. The module is an LDK 240, which means no warranty. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] Links: ------ [1] http://www.taitem.com [2] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [3] http://athens-electric.com/ [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Jun 13 23:24:30 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 20:24:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Fantastic response in part because now I'll have to add another Milwaukee 18 volt tool (portaband) to my pile.  Only in some of my situations I've had to use a sawzall (still may try the lubricant idea), I have been doing most of my end of rail cuts with the circ saw but , as stated in some comments, it has its limitations.  I also like the idea of NOT using a torch to shorten some top-of-pole racks. Bill On 6/13/2019 10:00 AM, August Goers wrote: > I'll chime in on the cordless bandsaw revolution - they're the best! > We have been using DeWalt 20v products and they make both a large > deep-cut version and a smaller version. The large bandsaw is great for > the roof and the small one is great for electrical work such as > cutting conduit (like butter). Each of our crews has one of each. > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 9:48 AM Ray > wrote: > > We love our cordless Milwaukee Portaband.  We've cut Schedule 80 > 6" pipe with ours, just working around a bit at a time.  We got > the 10 to 14 variable tooth blade, cuts incredibly fast, but > leaves a cleaner edge. > > Once you use a Portaband cordless, you are never going to use a > sawzall or circ. saw for cutting rails unless you have to.  Safety > is vastly improved, and you can't argue safety. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 6/12/19 11:24 PM, Kirpal wrote: >> Just like the other gents mentioned...but I would add...get the >> saw blade with 10 teeth per inch....will not clog up with the >> soft aluminum.   You will love the saw for cutting conduit too.  >> All done relatively quietly without all the jarring. >> Kirpal >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 9:32 PM frenergy > > wrote: >> >> Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall?  Many times >> at the end >> of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW >> P8).  I >> like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough >> clearance >> once the rail and panels are installed.  The sawzall works >> but I'm >> looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too >> fast and cuts >> without too much vibration.  Other ideas? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus >> software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Jun 14 08:16:40 2019 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 08:16:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> Message-ID: We have a couple of Dewalt 2" portable battery bandsaws, they are probably my favourite power tool, useful in so many ways. I wouldn't contract without them. I have a couple of sawzalls, not sure if I have ever used them. They are fine for cutting out holes in drywall and wood walls, but not for anything else. On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 11:20 PM frenergy wrote: > Fantastic response in part because now I'll have to add another Milwaukee > 18 volt tool (portaband) to my pile. Only in some of my situations I've > had to use a sawzall (still may try the lubricant idea), I have been doing > most of my end of rail cuts with the circ saw but , as stated in some > comments, it has its limitations. I also like the idea of NOT using a > torch to shorten some top-of-pole racks. > > Bill > On 6/13/2019 10:00 AM, August Goers wrote: > > I'll chime in on the cordless bandsaw revolution - they're the best! We > have been using DeWalt 20v products and they make both a large deep-cut > version and a smaller version. The large bandsaw is great for the roof and > the small one is great for electrical work such as cutting conduit (like > butter). Each of our crews has one of each. > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 9:48 AM Ray wrote: > >> We love our cordless Milwaukee Portaband. We've cut Schedule 80 6" pipe >> with ours, just working around a bit at a time. We got the 10 to 14 >> variable tooth blade, cuts incredibly fast, but leaves a cleaner edge. >> >> Once you use a Portaband cordless, you are never going to use a sawzall >> or circ. saw for cutting rails unless you have to. Safety is vastly >> improved, and you can't argue safety. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 6/12/19 11:24 PM, Kirpal wrote: >> >> Just like the other gents mentioned...but I would add...get the saw blade >> with 10 teeth per inch....will not clog up with the soft aluminum. You >> will love the saw for cutting conduit too. All done relatively quietly >> without all the jarring. >> Kirpal >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 9:32 PM frenergy wrote: >> >>> Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall? Many times at the end >>> of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW P8). I >>> like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough clearance >>> once the rail and panels are installed. The sawzall works but I'm >>> looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too fast and cuts >>> without too much vibration. Other ideas? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> --- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-1000421553531502429_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From djibrilfall at gmail.com Fri Jun 14 15:31:18 2019 From: djibrilfall at gmail.com (James "Jibril" Gustafson) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 13:31:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hail Damage insurance claim Message-ID: Hello Climate Heroes, I have a friend with a large ground-mounted system composed Canadian solar modules and Fronius inverters. Here on the front range of Colorado we have had increasingly damaging and frequent hail storms. He noticed that some of his modules had broken glass, obviously from hail stones. Many others had cracked cells and hot spots, which also appear to be hail related. He asked his insurance company to take a look, and they sent an engineering firm to inspect. Their report came back saying that only the 3 modules with broken glass would be covered for hail, and that the other 139 modules would not be covered. Has any one else dealt with a similar situation, and/or have hard evidence that hail can damage a module without breaking the glass? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jibril Tava Solar LLC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Jun 14 16:04:12 2019 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 15:04:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hail Damage insurance claim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A9619C0-C9C3-4EBC-9C2B-C07ED4588338@mavericksolar.com> Keywords “their engineers”. He’ll need his own engineers and some lawyers. Thank you, Maverick > On Jun 14, 2019, at 2:31 PM, James Jibril Gustafson wrote: > > Hello Climate Heroes, > > I have a friend with a large ground-mounted system composed Canadian solar modules and Fronius inverters. Here on the front range of Colorado we have had increasingly damaging and frequent hail storms. He noticed that some of his modules had broken glass, obviously from hail stones. Many others had cracked cells and hot spots, which also appear to be hail related. > > He asked his insurance company to take a look, and they sent an engineering firm to inspect. Their report came back saying that only the 3 modules with broken glass would be covered for hail, and that the other 139 modules would not be covered. > > Has any one else dealt with a similar situation, and/or have hard evidence that hail can damage a module without breaking the glass? Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Jibril > Tava Solar LLC > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Fri Jun 14 16:09:41 2019 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 20:09:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hail Damage insurance claim In-Reply-To: <7A9619C0-C9C3-4EBC-9C2B-C07ED4588338@mavericksolar.com> References: , <7A9619C0-C9C3-4EBC-9C2B-C07ED4588338@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Intertek and other PV test labs should be able to determine the cause on some sample panels. Best, Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Maverick Brown Sent: Friday, June 14, 2019 4:04:12 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hail Damage insurance claim Keywords “their engineers”. He’ll need his own engineers and some lawyers. Thank you, Maverick > On Jun 14, 2019, at 2:31 PM, James Jibril Gustafson wrote: > > Hello Climate Heroes, > > I have a friend with a large ground-mounted system composed Canadian solar modules and Fronius inverters. Here on the front range of Colorado we have had increasingly damaging and frequent hail storms. He noticed that some of his modules had broken glass, obviously from hail stones. Many others had cracked cells and hot spots, which also appear to be hail related. > > He asked his insurance company to take a look, and they sent an engineering firm to inspect. Their report came back saying that only the 3 modules with broken glass would be covered for hail, and that the other 139 modules would not be covered. > > Has any one else dealt with a similar situation, and/or have hard evidence that hail can damage a module without breaking the glass? Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Jibril > Tava Solar LLC > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Fri Jun 14 16:49:42 2019 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 14:49:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options In-Reply-To: <3698a795f7773605c9c789f1305edc85@127.0.0.1> References: <01a901d52203$14e6e460$3eb4ad20$@OasisMontana.com> <3698a795f7773605c9c789f1305edc85@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Sulas is pretty new, but I've heard good things. The concept is similar to Zomeworks, but they use paraffin wax instead of whatever fluid Zomeworks uses (freon?) with the intention of avoiding reliability issues while maintaining the simplicity and positive economics of passive actuation. - Andrew "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 3:13 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Have you looked at the Wattsun HZLA? No ladders and with the right module > about 5KW tracked. Perfect for long hours of cooling or pumping. > http://www.wattsun.com/products/accutrak-hzla-tracker > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 12:46:58 -0400, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > > Chris, > We have used AER for trackers. We've had good success with them. > https://www.allearthrenewables.com/product/allearth-solar-trackers > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 12:40 PM wrote: > >> Dear people: >> >> Now that Zomeworks is more-or-less down the tubes, what resources do you >> have for a residential tracking system? Wattsun's 'one size fits all' >> really doesn't (and I don't need a need a lecture of ROI for buying more >> modules versus a tracker). I'm just wondering if there are more options >> besides the utility grade models. We have a great pole mount supplier – >> but some folks want a tracker. I'm looking forward to your responses. >> >> Best, >> >> Chris Daum >> >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> >> 406-777-4309 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jun 14 22:48:26 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 19:48:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options In-Reply-To: References: <01a901d52203$14e6e460$3eb4ad20$@OasisMontana.com> <3698a795f7773605c9c789f1305edc85@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: So zomeworks is done? Darn They used propane I believe for a lot of years. I think Freon maybe in the early days. Jay > On Jun 14, 2019, at 1:49 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote: > > > Sulas is pretty new, but I've heard good things. The concept is similar to Zomeworks, but they use paraffin wax instead of whatever fluid Zomeworks uses (freon?) with the intention of avoiding reliability issues while maintaining the simplicity and positive economics of passive actuation. > > > - Andrew > > > > "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" > > ~William McDonough > > >> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 3:13 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> Have you looked at the Wattsun HZLA? No ladders and with the right module about 5KW tracked. Perfect for long hours of cooling or pumping. http://www.wattsun.com/products/accutrak-hzla-tracker >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >>> On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 12:46:58 -0400, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>> >>> Chris, >>> We have used AER for trackers. We've had good success with them. >>> https://www.allearthrenewables.com/product/allearth-solar-trackers >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> Dave Tedeyan, PE >>> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >>> >>> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >>> www.taitem.com >>> >>> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >>> B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree >>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 12:40 PM wrote: >>>> Dear people: >>>> >>>> Now that Zomeworks is more-or-less down the tubes, what resources do you have for a residential tracking system? Wattsun's 'one size fits all' really doesn't (and I don't need a need a lecture of ROI for buying more modules versus a tracker). I'm just wondering if there are more options besides the utility grade models. We have a great pole mount supplier – but some folks want a tracker. I'm looking forward to your responses. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sat Jun 15 13:01:49 2019 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 12:01:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hail Damage insurance claim In-Reply-To: <7A9619C0-C9C3-4EBC-9C2B-C07ED4588338@mavericksolar.com> References: <7A9619C0-C9C3-4EBC-9C2B-C07ED4588338@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <00a501d5239c$1111fec0$3335fc40$@sbcglobal.net> Jibril, we've also had similar damage on the plains of Kansas, with only one broken Canadian Solar module, but many with linear microfractures. I don't know that these were from impact, manufacturing imperfections, or lightening. Only a few have fractures seem to radiate from a central impact point. It does make you wonder about those advertising videos of wet "hail" being fired at panels. Sure they didn't smash but what other damage is likely? I have done thermal imaging of these areas and both edges of a microfracture appear to be at the same temperature so perhaps there isn't increased resistance. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Maverick Brown Sent: Friday, June 14, 2019 3:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hail Damage insurance claim Keywords “their engineers”. He’ll need his own engineers and some lawyers. Thank you, Maverick > On Jun 14, 2019, at 2:31 PM, James Jibril Gustafson wrote: > > Hello Climate Heroes, > > I have a friend with a large ground-mounted system composed Canadian solar modules and Fronius inverters. Here on the front range of Colorado we have had increasingly damaging and frequent hail storms. He noticed that some of his modules had broken glass, obviously from hail stones. Many others had cracked cells and hot spots, which also appear to be hail related. > > He asked his insurance company to take a look, and they sent an engineering firm to inspect. Their report came back saying that only the 3 modules with broken glass would be covered for hail, and that the other 139 modules would not be covered. > > Has any one else dealt with a similar situation, and/or have hard evidence that hail can damage a module without breaking the glass? Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Jibril > Tava Solar LLC > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From william at millersolar.com Sat Jun 15 11:42:14 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 08:42:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: <002d01d51be4$5d997850$18cc68f0$@gmail.com> References: <3AD78370-89B7-4471-B866-70DF1E71A377@millersolar.com> <001e01d51b29$eed62b80$cc828280$@gmail.com> <11d544bd-fedb-1353-4bdd-b6461be52bae@psln.com>, <002d01d51be4$5d997850$18cc68f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7816173379c7be3c92b6ac5f895d50a7@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I keep discovering systems with this error message. I have not drawn any conclusion as to the ramifications of this problem. Will this cause a system shut down? I did identify this problem with a dual Radian system recently. The problem disappeared with a Mate3 firmware update. Two days later the system shut down. The client rebooted the system to restore power. While examining the firmware screen on the Mate3 for a two Radian system, one Radian showed correct firmware version and one indicated 000.000.000. So this is the way to discover which device is not communicating correctly. In speaking with Adam at Outback Tech support, I was told the repair is addressed in this order: 1. Replace cables 2. Replace Hub 3. Replace control board(s) These repair steps seem rather vague which leads me to speculate that Outback does know exactly what is going on. In an ideal world the Outback representative to this forum would respond and tell us Outback recognizes this problem and has identified a specific repair strategy. Here is another question: I know the green Outback data cables have a non-standard wiring scheme as compared to standard Ethernet cables. You can check this visually or with an Ethernet cable tester. If the Outback cables are failing, I would like to replace them with high quality, factory made cables. I hesitate to do this since the third party cables are wired differently. Does anyone have any experience with using standard Cat5 cables in an Outback Hub system? Thanks to all who responded. If we can verify the scale of this problem maybe Outback will address it. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Bruce Geddes *Sent:* Wednesday, June 5, 2019 2:19 PM *To:* 'RE-wrenches' *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch In my case it was definitely NOT a case of the wrong ports being used. *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kienan Maxfield *Sent:* Thursday, 6 June 2019 5:25 a.m. *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch I have seen this problem and other similar problems many times. I saw one just last month that someone else was having trouble with. And with every single case that I’ve seen, the installer had accidentally neglected to ensure that the inverters are plugged into the correct ports. One of the Outback instruction manuals does say that the master inverter must be plugged into port one of the hub. In my own experience, if it’s not plugged into port one, all kinds of weird and strange problems arise. I would be only slightly surprised if Outback tech-support did not have you check that. I think that some of their techs don’t know the little details like that. On the Radian last month, I went over and switched the cables so that the Radian was plugged into port one, and it worked great after that. Just to keep things organized, I always ensure to put the master inverter in Port 1, the second inverter (first slave) in Port 2, etc., then put all the charge controllers after that. I don’t understand it, I just know that this is a good way to prevent strange and frustrating errors. Sometimes the ever occurs immediately, sometimes the error waits and happens after running a while. I have found this same issue with all Outback products, FX, Radian, FXR, etc. Thanks, Kienan 801-631-5584 On Jun 5, 2019, at 10:47 AM, William Miller wrote: Bill: I am not sure how your point applies. This occurs on systems that have been running for some time. I would hope equipment in this price range and this application does not need frequent rebooting. William On Jun 4, 2019, at 9:32 PM, frenergy wrote: Besides all the good info from Mac, there may be something to gain from following OB's sequence procedure for a proper complete system (all devices) shutdown and reboot. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 6/4/2019 4:04 PM, Bruce Geddes wrote: Don’t know about Radian but I had this issue with a dual stack VFXR system. After five visits to site (3 hours drive one way) Tech support eventually told me there had been a bad batch of comms boards on FXR’s but I had already swapped inverters out for VFX’s at last visit and issue ceased. Definitely some sort of comms glitch causing the Mate3 to loose info on devices. Best of luck from down under. Bruce Geddes PowerOn *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] *On Behalf Of *Mac Lewis *Sent:* Tuesday, 4 June 2019 3:00 p.m. *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch William, We have experienced this same issue on various Outback systems, mainly on multi-stack fxr systems. I can't say I know or understand why this happens. To me, it makes sense that it's a communication error of some kind. What I've done with success: 1. Update all firmware, Mate, devices etc. 2. If a certain device (s) seems to have an issue, replace cables. 3. Apply terminal grease to all devices connections and Hub connections. So far, this approach has worked, but will eat a lot of man hours. Good luck, and please let us know if you find anything deeper out about this. On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 8:49 PM William Miller wrote: Friends: As part of my ongoing love/hate relationship with Outback, I have been occasionally receiving “Inverter firmware mismatch” warnings on some Radian systems. The firmware has not been changed. I was told it was bad data cables. I replaced all cables on one system only to receive more of the same warnings. Then, suddenly the error warnings quit. Now today another system is experiencing the same warnings. Does anyone know what this means and how to fix it? Thanks in advance. William _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [image: Description: Image removed by sender.] Virus-free. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Sat Jun 15 16:37:22 2019 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 20:37:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options In-Reply-To: References: <01a901d52203$14e6e460$3eb4ad20$@OasisMontana.com> <3698a795f7773605c9c789f1305edc85@127.0.0.1> , Message-ID: Probably mid afternoon Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay Sent: Friday, June 14, 2019 10:48:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options So zomeworks is done? Darn They used propane I believe for a lot of years. I think Freon maybe in the early days. Jay On Jun 14, 2019, at 1:49 PM, Andrew Truitt > wrote: Sulas is pretty new, but I've heard good things. The concept is similar to Zomeworks, but they use paraffin wax instead of whatever fluid Zomeworks uses (freon?) with the intention of avoiding reliability issues while maintaining the simplicity and positive economics of passive actuation. - Andrew "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 3:13 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: Have you looked at the Wattsun HZLA? No ladders and with the right module about 5KW tracked. Perfect for long hours of cooling or pumping. http://www.wattsun.com/products/accutrak-hzla-tracker Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 12:46:58 -0400, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: Chris, We have used AER for trackers. We've had good success with them. https://www.allearthrenewables.com/product/allearth-solar-trackers Cheers, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 12:40 PM > wrote: Dear people: Now that Zomeworks is more-or-less down the tubes, what resources do you have for a residential tracking system? Wattsun's 'one size fits all' really doesn't (and I don't need a need a lecture of ROI for buying more modules versus a tracker). I'm just wondering if there are more options besides the utility grade models. We have a great pole mount supplier – but some folks want a tracker. I'm looking forward to your responses. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jun 15 15:42:20 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 12:42:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: <7816173379c7be3c92b6ac5f895d50a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <3AD78370-89B7-4471-B866-70DF1E71A377@millersolar.com> <001e01d51b29$eed62b80$cc828280$@gmail.com> <11d544bd-fedb-1353-4bdd-b6461be52bae@psln.com> <002d01d51be4$5d997850$18cc68f0$@gmail.com> <7816173379c7be3c92b6ac5f895d50a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <500EC087-F436-41D8-921F-34C0871710A9@gmail.com> HI William, I’ve looked at numerous cat 5 cables of mine ( OB and whatever) they are all wired the same. I’ve had many instances in the past where I’ve used normal what ever I can find cat 5 for OB or Schneider and they work fine both on my home computer system and for inverter systems. The OB manuals all state they are normal ie non cross over wiring. And I just asked a OB senior tech support who confirmed its a normal non cross over cabling. So in my experience there is no difference between usual non cross over cat 5 with outback. I really like the newer OB cables, they are really flexible. jay Peltz Power > On Jun 15, 2019, at 8:42 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > I keep discovering systems with this error message. I have not drawn any conclusion as to the ramifications of this problem. Will this cause a system shut down? I did identify this problem with a dual Radian system recently. The problem disappeared with a Mate3 firmware update. Two days later the system shut down. The client rebooted the system to restore power. > > While examining the firmware screen on the Mate3 for a two Radian system, one Radian showed correct firmware version and one indicated 000.000.000. So this is the way to discover which device is not communicating correctly. > > In speaking with Adam at Outback Tech support, I was told the repair is addressed in this order: > > 1. Replace cables > 2. Replace Hub > 3. Replace control board(s) > > These repair steps seem rather vague which leads me to speculate that Outback does know exactly what is going on. In an ideal world the Outback representative to this forum would respond and tell us Outback recognizes this problem and has identified a specific repair strategy. > > Here is another question: I know the green Outback data cables have a non-standard wiring scheme as compared to standard Ethernet cables. You can check this visually or with an Ethernet cable tester. If the Outback cables are failing, I would like to replace them with high quality, factory made cables. I hesitate to do this since the third party cables are wired differently. Does anyone have any experience with using standard Cat5 cables in an Outback Hub system? > > Thanks to all who responded. If we can verify the scale of this problem maybe Outback will address it. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy > storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Bruce Geddes > Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2019 2:19 PM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch > > In my case it was definitely NOT a case of the wrong ports being used. > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Kienan Maxfield > Sent: Thursday, 6 June 2019 5:25 a.m. > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch > > I have seen this problem and other similar problems many times. I saw one just last month that someone else was having trouble with. And with every single case that I’ve seen, the installer had accidentally neglected to ensure that the inverters are plugged into the correct ports. One of the Outback instruction manuals does say that the master inverter must be plugged into port one of the hub. In my own experience, if it’s not plugged into port one, all kinds of weird and strange problems arise. I would be only slightly surprised if Outback tech-support did not have you check that. I think that some of their techs don’t know the little details like that. On the Radian last month, I went over and switched the cables so that the Radian was plugged into port one, and it worked great after that. > > Just to keep things organized, I always ensure to put the master inverter in Port 1, the second inverter (first slave) in Port 2, etc., then put all the charge controllers after that. I don’t understand it, I just know that this is a good way to prevent strange and frustrating errors. > > Sometimes the ever occurs immediately, sometimes the error waits and happens after running a while. I have found this same issue with all Outback products, FX, Radian, FXR, etc. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > 801-631-5584 > > On Jun 5, 2019, at 10:47 AM, William Miller > wrote: > >> Bill: >> >> I am not sure how your point applies. This occurs on systems that have been running for some time. I would hope equipment in this price range and this application does not need frequent rebooting. >> >> William >> >> On Jun 4, 2019, at 9:32 PM, frenergy > wrote: >> >>> Besides all the good info from Mac, there may be something to gain from following OB's sequence procedure for a proper complete system (all devices) shutdown and reboot. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net >>> On 6/4/2019 4:04 PM, Bruce Geddes wrote: >>>> Don’t know about Radian but I had this issue with a dual stack VFXR system. After five visits to site (3 hours drive one way) Tech support eventually told me there had been a bad batch of comms boards on FXR’s but I had already swapped inverters out for VFX’s at last visit and issue ceased. Definitely some sort of comms glitch causing the Mate3 to loose info on devices. >>>> Best of luck from down under. >>>> Bruce Geddes >>>> PowerOn >>>> >>>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 4 June 2019 3:00 p.m. >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch >>>> >>>> William, >>>> >>>> We have experienced this same issue on various Outback systems, mainly on multi-stack fxr systems. I can't say I know or understand why this happens. To me, it makes sense that it's a communication error of some kind. What I've done with success: >>>> 1. Update all firmware, Mate, devices etc. >>>> 2. If a certain device (s) seems to have an issue, replace cables. >>>> 3. Apply terminal grease to all devices connections and Hub connections. >>>> >>>> So far, this approach has worked, but will eat a lot of man hours. >>>> >>>> Good luck, and please let us know if you find anything deeper out about this. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 8:49 PM William Miller > wrote: >>>>> Friends: >>>>> >>>>> As part of my ongoing love/hate relationship with Outback, I have been occasionally receiving “Inverter firmware mismatch” warnings on some Radian systems. The firmware has not been changed. >>>>> >>>>> I was told it was bad data cables. I replaced all cables on one system only to receive more of the same warnings. Then, suddenly the error warnings quit. >>>>> >>>>> Now today another system is experiencing the same warnings. >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone know what this means and how to fix it? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks in advance. >>>>> >>>>> William >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Virus-free. www.avast.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> -- >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Jun 17 12:40:15 2019 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 10:40:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar ready meter extension Message-ID: <001901d5252b$58a1d540$09e57fc0$@solarwork.com> Hey All, In various discussions here, there was a solar ready meter extension for grid tie load side taps that was mentioned. Is there one that is preferred? Cost wise one a lot less than another? Thanks in advance! Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Jun 17 13:53:21 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 13:53:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar ready meter extension In-Reply-To: <001901d5252b$58a1d540$09e57fc0$@solarwork.com> References: <001901d5252b$58a1d540$09e57fc0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <006601d52535$9588c2c0$c09a4840$@glbcc.com> The only one I am aware of is the ConnectDER. https://connectder.com/ -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Monday, June 17, 2019 12:40 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar ready meter extension Hey All, In various discussions here, there was a solar ready meter extension for grid tie load side taps that was mentioned. Is there one that is preferred? Cost wise one a lot less than another? Thanks in advance! Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 18 14:18:38 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 14:18:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar ready meter extension In-Reply-To: <006601d52535$9588c2c0$c09a4840$@glbcc.com> References: <001901d5252b$58a1d540$09e57fc0$@solarwork.com> <006601d52535$9588c2c0$c09a4840$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Check with your utility. FPL, the biggest in our state, and the local Co-op both rejected this product (sadly). On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 2:54 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > The only one I am aware of is the ConnectDER. > > https://connectder.com/ > > > > > -Glenn > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Dana > *Sent:* Monday, June 17, 2019 12:40 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Solar ready meter extension > > > > Hey All, > > > > In various discussions here, there was a solar ready meter extension for > grid tie load side taps that was mentioned. > > Is there one that is preferred? > > Cost wise one a lot less than another? > > Thanks in advance! > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 18 14:22:38 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 14:22:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail In-Reply-To: References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Milwaukee cordless deep cut band saw with lubricant wax, then use plastic end caps from the mfr to hide edges. It's not a cheap tool, but it doesn't take much abuse and it uses the same batts as our other tools. On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 11:20 PM frenergy wrote: > Fantastic response in part because now I'll have to add another Milwaukee > 18 volt tool (portaband) to my pile. Only in some of my situations I've > had to use a sawzall (still may try the lubricant idea), I have been doing > most of my end of rail cuts with the circ saw but , as stated in some > comments, it has its limitations. I also like the idea of NOT using a > torch to shorten some top-of-pole racks. > > Bill > On 6/13/2019 10:00 AM, August Goers wrote: > > I'll chime in on the cordless bandsaw revolution - they're the best! We > have been using DeWalt 20v products and they make both a large deep-cut > version and a smaller version. The large bandsaw is great for the roof and > the small one is great for electrical work such as cutting conduit (like > butter). Each of our crews has one of each. > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 9:48 AM Ray wrote: > >> We love our cordless Milwaukee Portaband. We've cut Schedule 80 6" pipe >> with ours, just working around a bit at a time. We got the 10 to 14 >> variable tooth blade, cuts incredibly fast, but leaves a cleaner edge. >> >> Once you use a Portaband cordless, you are never going to use a sawzall >> or circ. saw for cutting rails unless you have to. Safety is vastly >> improved, and you can't argue safety. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 6/12/19 11:24 PM, Kirpal wrote: >> >> Just like the other gents mentioned...but I would add...get the saw blade >> with 10 teeth per inch....will not clog up with the soft aluminum. You >> will love the saw for cutting conduit too. All done relatively quietly >> without all the jarring. >> Kirpal >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 9:32 PM frenergy wrote: >> >>> Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall? Many times at the end >>> of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW P8). I >>> like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough clearance >>> once the rail and panels are installed. The sawzall works but I'm >>> looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too fast and cuts >>> without too much vibration. Other ideas? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> --- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > <#m_-7622228729903515874_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue Jun 18 14:57:47 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 14:57:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low OC Voltage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Drake, If you want to find out for sure, often you should be able to open up the jbox on the back and poke around. It certainly is somewhat destructive, but you may find that either a diode is not the issue, or it is fixable. Sometimes you do have to pull out potting though. I have restored modules for second hand use that otherwise would have ended up in the dump this way. Obviously though it wont be like new anymore. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:26 PM wrote: > The outside temperature was unseasonably cool, maybe 55 degrees. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > "RE-wrenches" > > To: > "RE-wrenches" > Cc: > > Sent: > Thu, 13 Jun 2019 09:25:39 -0400 > Subject: > Re: [RE-wrenches] Low OC Voltage > > > Drake, > At what temperature did you get that reading? If it was very hot, then > that could just be poor temperature characteristics of the module. I have > run into some modules, specifically Suniva's, that just do very poorly in > warm temperatures. Otherwise, if the voltage is approximately 2/3 of what > you would expect, then it is usually an issue in the module jbox. Either a > bad diode or failed solder connection. This case is odd, because it is a > little bit more than 2/3 the voltage. So maybe it was very cold with 1/3 > the module not working, or very hot. Also, taking a look with an IR camera > when the system is functioning can often show if 1/3 the module is not > working or if there are some bad cells in the module. > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 7:05 PM Drake < > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Would you expect a low open circuit voltage in a module to be due to a >> problem in the J-box / diodes or the module itself? The OC voltage read >> about 28.3 V, where as the STC OC voltage of the module is 37.3. >> >> The module is an LDK 240, which means no warranty. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> >> >> >> >> >> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified >> Solar PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Wed Jun 19 06:41:40 2019 From: solar1online at charter.net (solar1online at charter.net) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 05:41:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Colorado PE Referral Message-ID: <779797fb162d68c01ba995249a8744d8dd52672e@> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Jun 19 08:47:42 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 06:47:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surface Pump Message-ID: Hi wrenches, Does anyone have a recommendation for a solar pump that fits these requirements? 1. 100' head, ~1 gpm 2. Able to handle dirty-ish water. Filtered through gravel, screen but still coming from a variable creek. 3. Surface pump with at least 8 ft of suction after priming 4. Solar direct, ideally with a 60 cell panel with an LCB if necessary. This client is aging and tired of servicing this submersible during Spring run-off. Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Jun 19 09:59:21 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 09:59:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low OC Voltage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave, I gave the module to a friend who is going to go into the J-Box. If there are any conclusions I can post them on the list, but don't know when she plans to attempt the repair. Thanks, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 14:57:47 -0400 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low OC Voltage Drake, If you want to find out for sure, often you should be able to open up the jbox on the back and poke around. It certainly is somewhat destructive, but you may find that either a diode is not the issue, or it is fixable. Sometimes you do have to pull out potting though. I have restored modules for second hand use that otherwise would have ended up in the dump this way. Obviously though it wont be like new anymore. Cheers,  Dave DAVE TEDEYAN, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street  | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121   f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com [1] Solar  •   Sustainability  •  Energy  •  Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:26 PM wrote: The outside temperature was unseasonably cool, maybe 55 degrees. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 09:25:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low OC Voltage Drake, At what temperature did you get that reading? If it was very hot, then that could just be poor temperature characteristics of the module. I have run into some modules, specifically Suniva's, that just do very poorly in warm temperatures. Otherwise, if the voltage is approximately 2/3 of what you would expect, then it is usually an issue in the module jbox. Either a bad diode or failed solder connection. This case is odd, because it is a little bit more than 2/3 the voltage. So maybe it was very cold with 1/3 the module not working, or very hot. Also, taking a look with an IR camera when the system is functioning can often show if 1/3 the module is not working or if there are some bad cells in the module. Cheers,  Dave DAVE TEDEYAN, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street  | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121   f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com [5] Solar  •   Sustainability  •  Energy  •  Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 7:05 PM Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, Would you expect a low open circuit voltage in a module to be due to a problem in the J-box / diodes or the module itself? The OC voltage read about 28.3 V, where as the STC OC voltage of the module is 37.3. The module is an LDK 240, which means no warranty. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ [7] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] Links: ------ [1] http://www.taitem.com [2] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [3] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://www.taitem.com [6] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [7] http://athens-electric.com/ [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [16] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jun 19 11:06:37 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 08:06:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surface Pump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0FFEB4BE-A9AB-4232-9E3E-55C636758ADE@gmail.com> Hi Mac, Have you thought about a shurflo or flow jet pressure style pump? I’m guessing from your info below the client has a small shurflo 9300 ( similar) submersible? While most won’t do such low flow, getting a 24v one and running it at 12v is probably close to the flow rate you’d need and it will handle minor debris and do limited suction. The same controller for the submersible will work for that pump as well. jay peltz power > On Jun 19, 2019, at 5:47 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi wrenches, > > Does anyone have a recommendation for a solar pump that fits these requirements? > 1. 100' head, ~1 gpm > 2. Able to handle dirty-ish water. Filtered through gravel, screen but still coming from a variable creek. > 3. Surface pump with at least 8 ft of suction after priming > 4. Solar direct, ideally with a 60 cell panel with an LCB if necessary. > > This client is aging and tired of servicing this submersible during Spring run-off. > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Wed Jun 19 15:21:45 2019 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nik Ponzio, Building Energy) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 15:21:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test In-Reply-To: References: <00ed01d3ebce$e564b890$b02e29b0$@solarwindworks.com> <009001d3ec6f$77262570$65727050$@OasisMontana.com> <027e01d3f778$98092a30$c81b7e90$@OasisMontana.com> <20180530213547.CDD9310791E@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: We have a few systems from same period that are showing delamination. I just learned about a pending class action lawsuit: https://www.classaction.org/news/sanyo-panasonic-hit-with-class-action-lawsuit-over-allegedly-defective-solar-panels -- Nik Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 office: 802-859-3384 ext.115 http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 7:14 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Also remember workmanship is a way around performance issues > Jerry > > On Wed, May 30, 2018, 11:35 AM Drake > wrote: > >> Aren't Sanyo modules warranted for 20 years? That is less, but still >> substantial. >> >> Does anyone know if Sanyo modules are affected by Potential Induced >> Degradation (PID) when connected to an ungrounded inverter? >> >> At 01:43 PM 5/30/2018, you wrote: >> >> To all that were asking about warranty on the old Sanyos, I was told that >> Panasonic that took over the Sanyo product will warranty the product, that >> being said, David was the contact I had and who is it that told me this, >> please take note that the Sanyo warranty was less then most other >> manufactures. David.Lopez at us.panasonic.com >> >> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 8:12 AM, wrote: >> Don’t forget about me please! >>  >> :>) >>  >> --Chris @ the sunny Oasis MT >>  >> From: Jerry Shafer >> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 8:07 PM >> To: chris at oasismontana.com >> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test >> >>  >> Yes, I do. Will get it in the next day or so, he is a rep but can make >> the connection for you >> Jerry >>  >> On Tue, May 15, 2018, 7:10 AM wrote: >> Jerry: Do you have Panasonic’s contact information for warranty >> service? I’m hoping I don’t need it but if I do….< >>  >> Thanks! >>  >> Chris Daum >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >> 406-777-4309 fax >> www.oasismontana.com >>  >>  >>  >>  >> From: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> On Behalf >> Of Chris Worcester >> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 4:00 PM >> To: 'RE-wrenches' < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test >>  >> We did a number of Sanyo HIP195, 200, and 210 installs, so far we’ve >> had a few failures showing up as backsheet bubbles. Some of the bubbles >> were so big that the wafer fell away from the glass! Here’s a couple >> photos. Didn’t think Panasonic would take care of this, after an >> exhausting warranty procedure that drew on for months on one system… their >> Japanese enggineering dept said no to our request for replacements on that >> one eventually.   >>  >> Chris Worcester >> Solar Wind Works >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer >> Office 530-582-4503 >> Cell 530-448-9692 >> Fax 530-582-4603 >> www.solarwindworks.com >> chris at solarwindworks.com >>  >> From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] On Behalf Of Ron Young >> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 12:49 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test >>  >> I have several dozen older Sanyo’s installed from that period. Are >> there any obvious physical degradations to look for or specific tests that >> can show issues? I don’t have a megger but have two systems installed in >> grid tied systems and a couple off-grid. No performance complaints as yet. >>  >> Ron >>  >> On May 13, 2018, at 11:51 AM, Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >>  >> Kirk >> I dont know if you know this but Panisonic will warranty the old Sanyos, >> just got this from a rep last week.the issue you are having may be due to >> the failing of the back sheet under the frame edge. >> Jerry >>  >> On Sun, May 13, 2018, 6:04 AM Kirk Herander wrote: >> I now have two systems with older Sanyos(Panasonic), circa 2004, which >> consistently fail the inverter (Solaredge) startup Insolation test in wet >> weather. Usually 200 – 550 kohms, just below tthe inverters 600k limit. >> Confirmed by my meggering. I discovered this after convincing the owners to >> upgrade the inverters from old SMA’s which don’t test for it. Anyone >> else see this issue in older panels, in particular Sanyos? >>  >> Kirk Herander >> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC >> Celebrating our 27th Anniversary 1991-2018 >> www.vermontsolarnow.com >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant >> VT RE Incentive Program Partner >> 802.863.1202 >>  >>  >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>  >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Wed Jun 19 17:19:43 2019 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 14:19:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GE Energy Roof-Integrated Solar Electric power Systems In-Reply-To: References: <00ed01d3ebce$e564b890$b02e29b0$@solarwindworks.com> <009001d3ec6f$77262570$65727050$@OasisMontana.com> <027e01d3f778$98092a30$c81b7e90$@OasisMontana.com> <20180530213547.CDD9310791E@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <0MBTkG-1hn17P0Ir8-00AVVC@mrelay.perfora.net> I did an install in 2007 for a customer in the High Desert just outside of Hesperia, CA. Since he was a General Electric employee at the time, he had access to the GEPV-055 module. We installed 102 of these puppies (three strings of 34 modules each) into a new, flat concrete tile roof. It looked and still does look very sharp (no pun intended). We used a single Fronius IG-5100, and had some problems with the first inverter, but no problems with the inverter since. Here is the problem. We are getting about 60% of the power out of the PV system that we think we should. I have taken PVA string analyzer measurements on several occasions. The strings fail to develop anywhere near Pmp even when the normal irradiance is fairly high (~700 W/m2). I know how to do a KI/KT/KS calculation. The Isc is okay but at about ½ of Voc, the output power drops considerably. It took me about three months to raise the dead at what’s left of GE Energy, and they told me that GE sold all the IP rights, manufacturing and warranty obligations to Motec. They gave me the email of two nameless Motec employees. I have emailed them on several occasions. The email doesn’t bounce but nonetheless I get no response from my efforts. I talked to David Birka-White, who was the lead litigator on the BP Solar class action lawsuit. But we concluded that the GE product was too low volume to be worth his time. I am now looking into whether or not Motec is incorporated in the US which may give me some leverage. Other that that, I am out of ideas. Has anyone else had problems with this product, and can share information? - Peter Peter T. Parrish California Solar Engineering 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Jun 19 23:12:25 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 20:12:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Head scratcher In-Reply-To: <0MBTkG-1hn17P0Ir8-00AVVC@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <00ed01d3ebce$e564b890$b02e29b0$@solarwindworks.com> <009001d3ec6f$77262570$65727050$@OasisMontana.com> <027e01d3f778$98092a30$c81b7e90$@OasisMontana.com> <20180530213547.CDD9310791E@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <0MBTkG-1hn17P0Ir8-00AVVC@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <0e6f241d-17fe-257c-fd39-53b189db9552@psln.com> Here's the deal....one year old system, 5KW string inverter with AFCI, 2 strings.  About 3-4 times now when there is lightening in the area (not real close), I get a fault that the the AFCI has shut down the inverter.  I've accessed the inverter brains and reset it, all is good....for awhile.  This last time I poked around more and found that one of the strings was 0 Voc at the inverter.  Having installed a fused combiner on the roof I checked there to find 425 Voc (about right for 11 PVs) on the home run side and the output side of the fuse holder.  Inspected array for hanging, loose wiring, squirrels, etc....nothing, all good. Checked at fuse holder again and got 0 Voc.             My favorite problem, the intermittent one!  Do I need to remove and check every PV and connection?  I feel like I make up very good UTX connector ends, I'm thinking its a bad PV or diode or trace or PV lead.  I have not yet purchased an "Intermittent circuit detector" meter yet.  Has somebody gone through this with some sage advice?  Thanks Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 20 09:47:22 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 06:47:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Head scratcher In-Reply-To: <0e6f241d-17fe-257c-fd39-53b189db9552@psln.com> References: <00ed01d3ebce$e564b890$b02e29b0$@solarwindworks.com> <009001d3ec6f$77262570$65727050$@OasisMontana.com> <027e01d3f778$98092a30$c81b7e90$@OasisMontana.com> <20180530213547.CDD9310791E@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <0MBTkG-1hn17P0Ir8-00AVVC@mrelay.perfora.net> <0e6f241d-17fe-257c-fd39-53b189db9552@psln.com> Message-ID: <99b398e9a3f5b619ad3b01e2903463d3@127.0.0.1> Bill, I get these from time to time. I mostly do them for an installer/inverter company who does not want to come back to our extreme rural area. It almost always is the AFCI. Good Luck Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 20:12:25 -0700, frenergy wrote: > Here's the deal....one year old system, 5KW string inverter with AFCI, 2 > strings.  About 3-4 times now when there is lightening in the area (not > real close), I get a fault that the the AFCI has shut down the > inverter.  I've accessed the inverter brains and reset it, all is > good....for awhile.  This last time I poked around more and found that > one of the strings was 0 Voc at the inverter.  Having installed a fused > combiner on the roof I checked there to find 425 Voc (about right for 11 > PVs) on the home run side and the output side of the fuse holder.  > Inspected array for hanging, loose wiring, squirrels, etc....nothing, > all good. Checked at fuse holder again and got 0 Voc. > >             My favorite problem, the intermittent one!  Do I need to > remove and check every PV and connection?  I feel like I make up very > good UTX connector ends, I'm thinking its a bad PV or diode or trace or > PV lead.  I have not yet purchased an "Intermittent circuit detector" > meter yet.  Has somebody gone through this with some sage advice?  Thanks > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Fri Jun 21 00:08:04 2019 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 04:08:04 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind Gen Support Message-ID: Hello, Has anyone been in touch with Xzeres Wind Power lately? Their phone number seems to lead to a empty cubical. I’ve got a client in So CO in need of help with his 10kw turbine/ SMA Windy Boy inverter set up. If anyone has experience with these, contact me off list. TIA, Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Fri Jun 21 11:14:37 2019 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nik Ponzio, Building Energy) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 11:14:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 'Tis the Season for Warranty Claims In-Reply-To: <00c801d52241$82b05330$8810f990$@solarwork.com> References: <00c801d52241$82b05330$8810f990$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Just learned for a diode failure in a SolarWorld SW50 (circa 2011.) Anybody else seeing this? Any luck with warranty claims? -- Nik Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 office: 802-859-3384 ext.115 http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Mon Jun 24 14:18:10 2019 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 11:18:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Message-ID: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> Wrenches, I got a situation where I got a client who wants to get solar with battery backup but where he is located the grid cannot currently accept incoming solar, but we can buy from them. I was thinking about doing an conext xw system and then solaredge ac coupling for module level shutdown but I don't know how well that would be on the conext side of things for charging some discover lithium ion batteries? I would rather do standard DC coupled system but not familiar with any of those 3rd party rapid shutdown devices(fire raptor and midnite?), has anyone used any before? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Mon Jun 24 15:06:03 2019 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 15:06:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext In-Reply-To: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> References: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <002d01d52abf$de85d2d0$9b917870$@mindspring.com> Andrew Take a look at the Sol-Ark product. Far more robust than the SE and probably the best hybrid on the market. Can take up to 11 kw worth of solar, 8 kw AC of output with high peak levels. Easy to wire and the customer support is great. Does work with rapid shut down from a few vendors. We have been very happy with the production #s as well as the battery charging and management. Can be programed to power the CL panels as well as the main panel without selling back to the grid. Thx Peter Giroux ASAE From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Andrew Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 2:18 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Wrenches, I got a situation where I got a client who wants to get solar with battery backup but where he is located the grid cannot currently accept incoming solar, but we can buy from them. I was thinking about doing an conext xw system and then solaredge ac coupling for module level shutdown but I don't know how well that would be on the conext side of things for charging some discover lithium ion batteries? I would rather do standard DC coupled system but not familiar with any of those 3rd party rapid shutdown devices(fire raptor and midnite?), has anyone used any before? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jun 24 14:36:45 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 11:36:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext In-Reply-To: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> References: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Hi Andrew, The last firmware added some new XW features. I do not know how easy it would be to shut down a roof system. Here is a link to the latest revision. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/conext-gateway-now-compatible-with-string-inverters/ [1] Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [3] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 11:18:10 -0700, "Andrew" wrote: Wrenches, I got a situation where I got a client who wants to get solar with battery backup but where he is located the grid cannot currently accept incoming solar, but we can buy from them. I was thinking about doing an conext xw system and then solaredge ac coupling for module level shutdown but I don't know how well that would be on the conext side of things for charging some discover lithium ion batteries? I would rather do standard DC coupled system but not familiar with any of those 3rd party rapid shutdown devices(fire raptor and midnite?), has anyone used any before? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com -- Links: ------ [1] https://solar.schneider-electric.com/conext-gateway-now-compatible-with-string-inverters/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Mon Jun 24 15:30:20 2019 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 12:30:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext In-Reply-To: <002d01d52abf$de85d2d0$9b917870$@mindspring.com> References: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> <002d01d52abf$de85d2d0$9b917870$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <038201d52ac3$432b5400$c981fc00$@greenwired.com> Hey Peter, Thanks for the input, I recently had another installer recommend them to me a couple weeks ago so Ill check them out. Do you know if they can handle the lithium ion batteries? Kinda looks like they have their own battery? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of pgiroux at mindspring.com Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 12:06 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Andrew Take a look at the Sol-Ark product. Far more robust than the SE and probably the best hybrid on the market. Can take up to 11 kw worth of solar, 8 kw AC of output with high peak levels. Easy to wire and the customer support is great. Does work with rapid shut down from a few vendors. We have been very happy with the production #s as well as the battery charging and management. Can be programed to power the CL panels as well as the main panel without selling back to the grid. Thx Peter Giroux ASAE From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Andrew Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 2:18 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Wrenches, I got a situation where I got a client who wants to get solar with battery backup but where he is located the grid cannot currently accept incoming solar, but we can buy from them. I was thinking about doing an conext xw system and then solaredge ac coupling for module level shutdown but I don't know how well that would be on the conext side of things for charging some discover lithium ion batteries? I would rather do standard DC coupled system but not familiar with any of those 3rd party rapid shutdown devices(fire raptor and midnite?), has anyone used any before? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Mon Jun 24 15:32:22 2019 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 19:32:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext In-Reply-To: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> References: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <427cc8fd1b3343c5adcc167c0f637ebb@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hi Andrew OutBack now has AC Coupling for the Radian using frequency shift. Below is a link to the Ac Coupling/ Frequency Shift App Note located on the OutBack website. http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/acc_freq_app_note.pdf You also state the client wants to "get solar" in a situation where the grid cannot accept incoming solar. The radian has several modes which utilizes solar and will prevent sell back. This might be an option to consider. Take Care Sir From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Andrew Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 11:18 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ Wrenches, I got a situation where I got a client who wants to get solar with battery backup but where he is located the grid cannot currently accept incoming solar, but we can buy from them. I was thinking about doing an conext xw system and then solaredge ac coupling for module level shutdown but I don't know how well that would be on the conext side of things for charging some discover lithium ion batteries? I would rather do standard DC coupled system but not familiar with any of those 3rd party rapid shutdown devices(fire raptor and midnite?), has anyone used any before? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [Description: signature] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Mon Jun 24 15:33:25 2019 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 15:33:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext In-Reply-To: <038201d52ac3$432b5400$c981fc00$@greenwired.com> References: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> <002d01d52abf$de85d2d0$9b917870$@mindspring.com> <038201d52ac3$432b5400$c981fc00$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <005501d52ac3$b1542a10$13fc7e30$@mindspring.com> Yes, they do LI's. Yes they sell their own batteries but we are in the process of using one with Tesla car batteries ( harvested from damaged Tesla's ). They helped by modifying some the factory settings for us. peter From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Andrew Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 3:30 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Hey Peter, Thanks for the input, I recently had another installer recommend them to me a couple weeks ago so Ill check them out. Do you know if they can handle the lithium ion batteries? Kinda looks like they have their own battery? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of pgiroux at mindspring.com Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 12:06 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Andrew Take a look at the Sol-Ark product. Far more robust than the SE and probably the best hybrid on the market. Can take up to 11 kw worth of solar, 8 kw AC of output with high peak levels. Easy to wire and the customer support is great. Does work with rapid shut down from a few vendors. We have been very happy with the production #s as well as the battery charging and management. Can be programed to power the CL panels as well as the main panel without selling back to the grid. Thx Peter Giroux ASAE From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Andrew Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 2:18 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Wrenches, I got a situation where I got a client who wants to get solar with battery backup but where he is located the grid cannot currently accept incoming solar, but we can buy from them. I was thinking about doing an conext xw system and then solaredge ac coupling for module level shutdown but I don't know how well that would be on the conext side of things for charging some discover lithium ion batteries? I would rather do standard DC coupled system but not familiar with any of those 3rd party rapid shutdown devices(fire raptor and midnite?), has anyone used any before? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bchurchill at energy-1.net Mon Jun 24 16:53:45 2019 From: bchurchill at energy-1.net (Barton Churchill) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 20:53:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext In-Reply-To: <005501d52ac3$b1542a10$13fc7e30$@mindspring.com> References: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> <002d01d52abf$de85d2d0$9b917870$@mindspring.com> <038201d52ac3$432b5400$c981fc00$@greenwired.com>, <005501d52ac3$b1542a10$13fc7e30$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: The only way to grid zero with a Radian is with dc coupled solar. AC coupled with frequency shift has to sell to the grid. [cid:f07d6127-e785-47a3-bb9f-37ca4a425465]Barton Churchill, Project Manager Power Division 2042 Stadium Drive Suite 2 • Bozeman, MT 59715 • (O) 406-587-2917 • (D) 406-589-4493 235 E. Broadway • Jackson, WY 83001 • (O) 307-200-2210 bchurchill at energy-1.net | www.energy-1.net ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of pgiroux at mindspring.com Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 1:33 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Yes, they do LI’s. Yes they sell their own batteries but we are in the process of using one with Tesla car batteries ( harvested from damaged Tesla’s ). They helped by modifying some the factory settings for us. peter From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Andrew Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 3:30 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Hey Peter, Thanks for the input, I recently had another installer recommend them to me a couple weeks ago so Ill check them out. Do you know if they can handle the lithium ion batteries? Kinda looks like they have their own battery? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [Description: signature] From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of pgiroux at mindspring.com Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 12:06 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Andrew Take a look at the Sol-Ark product. Far more robust than the SE and probably the best hybrid on the market. Can take up to 11 kw worth of solar, 8 kw AC of output with high peak levels. Easy to wire and the customer support is great. Does work with rapid shut down from a few vendors. We have been very happy with the production #s as well as the battery charging and management. Can be programed to power the CL panels as well as the main panel without selling back to the grid. Thx Peter Giroux ASAE From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Andrew Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 2:18 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Wrenches, I got a situation where I got a client who wants to get solar with battery backup but where he is located the grid cannot currently accept incoming solar, but we can buy from them. I was thinking about doing an conext xw system and then solaredge ac coupling for module level shutdown but I don’t know how well that would be on the conext side of things for charging some discover lithium ion batteries? I would rather do standard DC coupled system but not familiar with any of those 3rd party rapid shutdown devices(fire raptor and midnite?), has anyone used any before? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [Description: signature] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-5e1qo4f3.png Type: image/png Size: 7692 bytes Desc: Outlook-5e1qo4f3.png URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Jun 24 17:57:10 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 17:57:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext In-Reply-To: <427cc8fd1b3343c5adcc167c0f637ebb@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: <573e0662415a3947fa8c5f9c0aa7ea9e4569db64@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Hi Lones, Can the frequency shift be retrofitted to an earlier radian, four + years old? The unit now has the obsolete, remote operated circuit breaker (ROCB) that I'm a bit concerned about. Thanks, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 19:32:22 +0000 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Hi Andrew OutBack now has AC Coupling for the Radian using frequency shift. Below is a link to the Ac Coupling/ Frequency Shift App Note located on the OutBack website. http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/acc_freq_app_note.pdf [1] You also state the client wants to “get solar” in a situation where the grid cannot accept incoming solar. The radian has several modes which utilizes solar and will prevent sell back. This might be an option to consider. Take Care Sir   FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Andrew SENT: Monday, June 24, 2019 11:18 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext   ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - PLEASE REPORT ANY SUSPICIOUS ATTACHMENTS, LINKS, OR REQUESTS FOR SENSITIVE INFORMATION TO THE HELP DESK. ** Wrenches,                 I got a situation where I got a client who wants to get solar with battery backup but where he is located the grid cannot currently accept incoming solar, but we can buy from them. I was thinking about doing an conext xw system and then solaredge ac coupling for module level shutdown but I don’t know how well that would be on the conext side of things for charging some discover lithium ion batteries? I would rather do standard DC coupled system but not familiar with any of those 3rd party rapid shutdown devices(fire raptor and midnite?), has anyone used any before?   Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [2]   Links: ------ [1] http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/acc_freq_app_note.pdf [2] http://www.greenwired.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Jun 24 18:28:39 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 15:28:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext In-Reply-To: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> References: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Andrew - I imagine you've already considered a StorEdge and LG Chem battery? August Luminalt On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 11:18 AM Andrew wrote: > Wrenches, > > I got a situation where I got a client who wants to get > solar with battery backup but where he is located the grid cannot currently > accept incoming solar, but we can buy from them. I was thinking about doing > an conext xw system and then solaredge ac coupling for module level > shutdown but I don’t know how well that would be on the conext side of > things for charging some discover lithium ion batteries? I would rather do > standard DC coupled system but not familiar with any of those 3rd party > rapid shutdown devices(fire raptor and midnite?), has anyone used any > before? > > > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > [image: Description: signature] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jun 24 20:47:24 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 17:47:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext In-Reply-To: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> References: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Andrew You may want to look at Tigo for the MLSD, Outback Radian and Blue Ion LI battery W/integrated BMS Jerry On Mon, Jun 24, 2019, 11:18 AM Andrew wrote: > Wrenches, > > I got a situation where I got a client who wants to get > solar with battery backup but where he is located the grid cannot currently > accept incoming solar, but we can buy from them. I was thinking about doing > an conext xw system and then solaredge ac coupling for module level > shutdown but I don’t know how well that would be on the conext side of > things for charging some discover lithium ion batteries? I would rather do > standard DC coupled system but not familiar with any of those 3rd party > rapid shutdown devices(fire raptor and midnite?), has anyone used any > before? > > > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > [image: Description: signature] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jun 24 20:48:37 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 17:48:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext In-Reply-To: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> References: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Andrew Out back can be programmed to zero export no problem Jerry On Mon, Jun 24, 2019, 11:18 AM Andrew wrote: > Wrenches, > > I got a situation where I got a client who wants to get > solar with battery backup but where he is located the grid cannot currently > accept incoming solar, but we can buy from them. I was thinking about doing > an conext xw system and then solaredge ac coupling for module level > shutdown but I don’t know how well that would be on the conext side of > things for charging some discover lithium ion batteries? I would rather do > standard DC coupled system but not familiar with any of those 3rd party > rapid shutdown devices(fire raptor and midnite?), has anyone used any > before? > > > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > [image: Description: signature] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Tue Jun 25 12:11:01 2019 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 09:11:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext In-Reply-To: References: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <041601d52b70$9571eaa0$c055bfe0$@greenwired.com> Tigo awesome I will check them out thanks Jerry! From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 5:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Andrew You may want to look at Tigo for the MLSD, Outback Radian and Blue Ion LI battery W/integrated BMS Jerry On Mon, Jun 24, 2019, 11:18 AM Andrew wrote: Wrenches, I got a situation where I got a client who wants to get solar with battery backup but where he is located the grid cannot currently accept incoming solar, but we can buy from them. I was thinking about doing an conext xw system and then solaredge ac coupling for module level shutdown but I don’t know how well that would be on the conext side of things for charging some discover lithium ion batteries? I would rather do standard DC coupled system but not familiar with any of those 3rd party rapid shutdown devices(fire raptor and midnite?), has anyone used any before? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Tue Jun 25 12:14:24 2019 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 09:14:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext In-Reply-To: References: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <042101d52b71$0e45c550$2ad14ff0$@greenwired.com> I would love to use that setup but I cant export any power, I can buy it but nothing can go back to the grid. Can the LG Chem be programmed to do that? I havent put one in yet but really want too. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 3:29 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Andrew - I imagine you've already considered a StorEdge and LG Chem battery? August Luminalt On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 11:18 AM Andrew wrote: Wrenches, I got a situation where I got a client who wants to get solar with battery backup but where he is located the grid cannot currently accept incoming solar, but we can buy from them. I was thinking about doing an conext xw system and then solaredge ac coupling for module level shutdown but I don’t know how well that would be on the conext side of things for charging some discover lithium ion batteries? I would rather do standard DC coupled system but not familiar with any of those 3rd party rapid shutdown devices(fire raptor and midnite?), has anyone used any before? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Jun 25 12:30:45 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 09:30:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext In-Reply-To: <042101d52b71$0e45c550$2ad14ff0$@greenwired.com> References: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> <042101d52b71$0e45c550$2ad14ff0$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Andrew - With the StorEdge and LG Chem product, the StorEdge inverter (DC coupled inverter for both PV and the battery) is the brains of the system and can be programmed to your liking. If you are not familiar with the product, you should check it out. https://www.solaredge.com/us/products/storedge#/ August On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 9:14 AM Andrew wrote: > I would love to use that setup but I cant export any power, I can buy it > but nothing can go back to the grid. Can the LG Chem be programmed to do > that? I havent put one in yet but really want too. > > > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > [image: Description: signature] > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *August Goers > *Sent:* Monday, June 24, 2019 3:29 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext > > > > Andrew - I imagine you've already considered a StorEdge and LG Chem > battery? > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 11:18 AM Andrew wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I got a situation where I got a client who wants to get > solar with battery backup but where he is located the grid cannot currently > accept incoming solar, but we can buy from them. I was thinking about doing > an conext xw system and then solaredge ac coupling for module level > shutdown but I don’t know how well that would be on the conext side of > things for charging some discover lithium ion batteries? I would rather do > standard DC coupled system but not familiar with any of those 3rd party > rapid shutdown devices(fire raptor and midnite?), has anyone used any > before? > > > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > [image: Description: signature] > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Tue Jun 25 14:16:18 2019 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 18:16:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext In-Reply-To: <573e0662415a3947fa8c5f9c0aa7ea9e4569db64@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <427cc8fd1b3343c5adcc167c0f637ebb@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <573e0662415a3947fa8c5f9c0aa7ea9e4569db64@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <16de6e37be9e40a99a492707a25a63c3@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello Drake This is from the App note OutBack’s Frequency Shift AC Coupling is only employed in the Radian GS(A) class inverter at this time. It requires a firmware upgrade on both the Radian inverter and MATE3s system display and controller. The firmware is only available by download on the OutBack Power website. The GS-AC-GEN –KIT is available from Distributors. It contains the needed breakers and relays the app note shows the wiring. Take Care Sir From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 2:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Hi Lones, Can the frequency shift be retrofitted to an earlier radian, four + years old? The unit now has the obsolete, remote operated circuit breaker (ROCB) that I'm a bit concerned about. Thanks, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" > To: "RE-wrenches" > Cc: Sent: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 19:32:22 +0000 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Hi Andrew OutBack now has AC Coupling for the Radian using frequency shift. Below is a link to the Ac Coupling/ Frequency Shift App Note located on the OutBack website. http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/acc_freq_app_note.pdf You also state the client wants to “get solar” in a situation where the grid cannot accept incoming solar. The radian has several modes which utilizes solar and will prevent sell back. This might be an option to consider. Take Care Sir From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Andrew Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 11:18 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** Wrenches, I got a situation where I got a client who wants to get solar with battery backup but where he is located the grid cannot currently accept incoming solar, but we can buy from them. I was thinking about doing an conext xw system and then solaredge ac coupling for module level shutdown but I don’t know how well that would be on the conext side of things for charging some discover lithium ion batteries? I would rather do standard DC coupled system but not familiar with any of those 3rd party rapid shutdown devices(fire raptor and midnite?), has anyone used any before? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jun 25 13:37:23 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 10:37:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext In-Reply-To: <042101d52b71$0e45c550$2ad14ff0$@greenwired.com> References: <035701d52ab9$2e4667a0$8ad336e0$@greenwired.com> <042101d52b71$0e45c550$2ad14ff0$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <83bdcfeae972f5432b462ca83c580e7e@127.0.0.1> Andrew, Did you see the self consumption or backup on XW+? Also XWPro is only a bit more and has a 10 product warranty on it. If you used this with the Discover AES LFP, xanbus can directly link Soc and all battery data to anywhere in the world on Insight2. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/solution/commercial-self-consumption/ [1] On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 09:14:24 -0700, "Andrew" wrote: I would love to use that setup but I cant export any power, I can buy it but nothing can go back to the grid. Can the LG Chem be programmed to do that? I havent put one in yet but really want too. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] ON BEHALF OF August Goers SENT: Monday, June 24, 2019 3:29 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Andrew - I imagine you've already considered a StorEdge and LG Chem battery? August Luminalt On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 11:18 AM Andrew wrote: Wrenches, I got a situation where I got a client who wants to get solar with battery backup but where he is located the grid cannot currently accept incoming solar, but we can buy from them. I was thinking about doing an conext xw system and then solaredge ac coupling for module level shutdown but I don't know how well that would be on the conext side of things for charging some discover lithium ion batteries? I would rather do standard DC coupled system but not familiar with any of those 3rd party rapid shutdown devices(fire raptor and midnite?), has anyone used any before? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] List rules ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [9] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [10] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] https://solar.schneider-electric.com/solution/commercial-self-consumption/ [2] mailto:andrew at greenwired.com [3] http://www.greenwired.com [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [10] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue Jun 25 16:40:15 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 16:40:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunpower Ensemble Message-ID: Hi All, Does anyone out there have any good information about Enphase Ensemble? I am doing a solar + storage design for a new home, where the customer is set on using Ensemble even though it is not yet available. So I am trying to design for adding it in the future, although it is tough to get specific information. Some questions I have: -Will it have its own transfer switch? -Will the batteries, solar and backed up loads all connect into the same backup loads panel? -Does it do whole house backup? -Do you need to use the IQ combiner box for the solar combiner? -The batteries will have their own integrated microinverters that should be able to charge the batteries, and also power loads and form a grid signal to keep the rest of the solar producing, correct? -I was told that there will need to be at least as many IQ8's as IQ7 microinverters in the array, which means that half the MI's will need to be upgraded. Can anyone confirm this? -Will Sunpower AC modules be compatible? If anyone out there has any of this info, that would be much appreciated! Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Jun 25 17:50:46 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 17:50:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Message-ID: <1anuvrlrq72i5pch59d6gdbe.1561499384483@email.lge.com> It is the StorEdge that is actually connected to the grid and it can be programmed in a variety of modes. One is to not export.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: AndrewDate: Tue, Jun 25, 2019 12:14 PMTo: 'RE-wrenches';Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conextI would love to use that setup but I cant export any power, I can buy it but nothing can go back to the grid. Can the LG Chem be programmed to do that? I havent put one in yet but really want too. Andrew PerkinsGreenwiredP: 707-923-2001 ext. 1001150 #1 Evergreen RdRedway, CA 95560www.greenwired.com   From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August GoersSent: Monday, June 24, 2019 3:29 PMTo: RE-wrenchesSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC/DC coupling on conext Andrew - I imagine you've already considered a StorEdge and LG Chem battery? AugustLuminalt On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 11:18 AM Andrew wrote:Wrenches,                I got a situation where I got a client who wants to get solar with battery backup but where he is located the grid cannot currently accept incoming solar, but we can buy from them. I was thinking about doing an conext xw system and then solaredge ac coupling for module level shutdown but I don’t know how well that would be on the conext side of things for charging some discover lithium ion batteries? I would rather do standard DC coupled system but not familiar with any of those 3rd party rapid shutdown devices(fire raptor and midnite?), has anyone used any before? Andrew PerkinsGreenwiredP: 707-923-2001 ext. 1001150 #1 Evergreen RdRedway, CA 95560www.greenwired.com _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Jun 26 00:46:48 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 22:46:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 25 kW backfeed limit circuit Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I'm working with a small utility on a large residence for grid-tie solar with a wind-turbine. They have a 25 kW backfeed limit. Its a 4 stack radian system with about 25 kW of solar and 10 kW of wind. The wind is AC coupled Bergey and the solar is DC coupled with FM100s. My idea was to use the Radians to limit the solar to 15 kW and let the wind do its thing. However, the utility doesn't like the idea that this limit could be changed without their knowledge. Has anyone designed and/or implemented a backfeed limiting circuit that could knock some charge controllers off-line in case that 25 kW limit is reached. Is there anything off-the-shelf that can do that? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jun 26 11:56:07 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 08:56:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 25 kW backfeed limit circuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac I have done this, same as you with no issues from the utility (PG&E). I did tell them it was behind a security pass code and could only be changed with that code which was secure. Jerry On Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 9:47 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I'm working with a small utility on a large residence for grid-tie solar > with a wind-turbine. They have a 25 kW backfeed limit. Its a 4 stack > radian system with about 25 kW of solar and 10 kW of wind. The wind is AC > coupled Bergey and the solar is DC coupled with FM100s. My idea was to use > the Radians to limit the solar to 15 kW and let the wind do its thing. > However, the utility doesn't like the idea that this limit could be changed > without their knowledge. > > Has anyone designed and/or implemented a backfeed limiting circuit that > could knock some charge controllers off-line in case that 25 kW limit is > reached. Is there anything off-the-shelf that can do that? > > Thanks in advance > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Thu Jun 27 12:33:00 2019 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 10:33:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small canopy options Message-ID: Does anyone have experience with / recommendations for small (~25-35kW) solar canopy structures? Its a bit of a "tweener" size... Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jun 28 15:49:29 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 12:49:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APS micro inverters Message-ID: <3D246755-3D6D-4BED-B799-769EDF9774A9@gmail.com> Hi all, I’m looking for any comments about the APS micros. And of course compared to enphase Thx Jay From adirondackbattery at gmail.com Sun Jun 30 09:40:27 2019 From: adirondackbattery at gmail.com (Amanda Potter) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 09:40:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APS micro inverters In-Reply-To: <3D246755-3D6D-4BED-B799-769EDF9774A9@gmail.com> References: <3D246755-3D6D-4BED-B799-769EDF9774A9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I’ve got three GTBB installs with the Magnum PAE’s & their micros by AP Systems, and all performing well. I just attended an Enphase training & will be using them on an upcoming 10kW system, GT (no Battery Back-Up yet.) The only thing I don’t like about the Enphase, is they have to be connected to the internet, or they will void their warranty. This is not an issue with the Magnum GT-500 micros. I am not sure if APS requires that as well. Thanks, Amanda Amanda Potter NABCEP PV Installation Professional NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC Potsdam, NY (315) 212-2114 > On Jun 28, 2019, at 3:49 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all, > > I’m looking for any comments about the APS micros. > And of course compared to enphase > > Thx > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jun 30 11:07:12 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 08:07:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APS micro inverters In-Reply-To: References: <3D246755-3D6D-4BED-B799-769EDF9774A9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Amanda I have at least one person who isn’t using the online data logger, so I don’t think APS needs internet. I sure don’t like that you have to have web connection. And lots of people who I work for don’t have internet. I had someone contact me off list about Chilicon ( https://www.chiliconpower.com/ ) inverters. US made. And probably biggest pro is that they use #10 wire so much larger string length. Jay Peltz Power > On Jun 30, 2019, at 6:40 AM, Amanda Potter wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > I’ve got three GTBB installs with the Magnum PAE’s & their micros by AP Systems, and all performing well. > I just attended an Enphase training & will be using them on an upcoming 10kW system, GT (no Battery Back-Up yet.) > The only thing I don’t like about the Enphase, is they have to be connected to the internet, or they will void their warranty. > This is not an issue with the Magnum GT-500 micros. > I am not sure if APS requires that as well. > > Thanks, > Amanda > > Amanda Potter > NABCEP > PV Installation Professional > NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer > Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC > Potsdam, NY > (315) 212-2114 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Sun Jun 30 11:19:33 2019 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 11:19:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Storedge self-consumption data collection Message-ID: <003001d52f57$39a89f30$acf9dd90$@icloud.com> Hi All, I'm wondering if there are any Storedge data gurus out there who could help with the following. I just set up a 2-pack LG chem bank with a grid-tied Storedge. I have the SE meter device type set to Revenue, and meter function to export/import. The daily energy curves show expected reporting including self-consumption as below: BUT the monthly bar chart by day does not show self-consumption. So for some reason S-C is being recorded as real-time KW's daily as it should, but not massaged into KWH and recorded over a time frame. The raw data .CSV downloads confirm the chart representation. What I want to do is obtain the S-C kwh data for some custom spreadsheets. I have one other SE-metered system which reports S-C KWH over time as one would expect, but with a battery-less Solaredge inverter. Besides the batteries, the only difference between the two systems is that the non-battery site meter is set to Consumption. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 28th Anniversary 1991-2019 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 93940 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 42981 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 36307 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Mon Jul 1 11:32:08 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 11:32:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged in shipping Message-ID: Hi All, I thought I would pick the hive mind to get some thoughts on whose responsibility it is when you service a system and things go wrong beyond your control. Here is the situation: Outback Radian GS8048 inverter (out of warranty) goes offline and stops working. Customer calls me to check it out, and in the meantime, they had an electrician rewire the backed up loads to bypass the inverter (not realizing there was a simple bypass switch...). By the time I get there the inverter is working again. I wire the backed up loads back to the inverter, educate them about the bypass switch, and call Outback. We see some erroneous data on Optics, and so they suggest I replace all the ethernet cables with shielded cat5e. I do that, and charge the customer for the visit. A few days later, the inverter goes stops working again. I go back out and this time the issue is still active. Outback suspects it is one of the control boards, which cannot be field replaced. So the choices are send the whole inverter to Outback, or get a new Power stack for about $2500. So I send the inverter in. I offer to the customer to not have them pay for my labor this visit, since they already paid me to fix this issue and it did not work. Outback tests the inverter, finds no fault, although I ask them to replace the board anyway, since the fault was intermittent. They tested it and it was working then it left their facility. I receive it in a rough looking box. I go reinstall it, and the mate3 sees it, and the communications are okay, which is the original issue that I sent it in for. But now it will not put out any AC voltage. So a completely different issue, but still a useless piece of equipment in its current state. Tech support and I cannot determine exactly what is wrong after running through some troubleshooting steps, so they say I need to send it back to their facility. The best I can come up with is that it got damaged during shipment on the way back. (I was not excited to see that they left some poor Fedex driver to handle a 130lb package on their own....) So the inverter is currently in transit back to Outback. Here is the question: Would you all be charging the customer for all the time spent on troubleshooting and shipping, or at some point do you eat some of these costs? Even though (I am fairly certain) that I have done nothing negligent and none of this is my fault... but I am still not sure if it is right to charge the customer for all this back and forth when my actions have not resulted in a fixed and usable inverter. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts and feedback on this sort of situation. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Mon Jul 1 12:22:56 2019 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 16:22:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged in shipping and Outback issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Our policy is always eliminate costs to the customer for issues that are beyond their control and unrelated to the failure. While this can be costly to us, we feel that it's the right thing to do and is more often than not greatly appreciated by the customer. Outback policy on the other hand has much room for improvement. I am currently awaiting a return call from OB to discuss the possibility of an OB policy change (especially for in warranty issues) allowing for a CC deposit to expedite a replacement inverter situation, reduce truck rolls and down time. So far no response. Unfortunately if their policy remains unchanged we will no longer be offering OB products. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 11:32 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged in shipping Hi All, I thought I would pick the hive mind to get some thoughts on whose responsibility it is when you service a system and things go wrong beyond your control. Here is the situation: Outback Radian GS8048 inverter (out of warranty) goes offline and stops working. Customer calls me to check it out, and in the meantime, they had an electrician rewire the backed up loads to bypass the inverter (not realizing there was a simple bypass switch...). By the time I get there the inverter is working again. I wire the backed up loads back to the inverter, educate them about the bypass switch, and call Outback. We see some erroneous data on Optics, and so they suggest I replace all the ethernet cables with shielded cat5e. I do that, and charge the customer for the visit. A few days later, the inverter goes stops working again. I go back out and this time the issue is still active. Outback suspects it is one of the control boards, which cannot be field replaced. So the choices are send the whole inverter to Outback, or get a new Power stack for about $2500. So I send the inverter in. I offer to the customer to not have them pay for my labor this visit, since they already paid me to fix this issue and it did not work. Outback tests the inverter, finds no fault, although I ask them to replace the board anyway, since the fault was intermittent. They tested it and it was working then it left their facility. I receive it in a rough looking box. I go reinstall it, and the mate3 sees it, and the communications are okay, which is the original issue that I sent it in for. But now it will not put out any AC voltage. So a completely different issue, but still a useless piece of equipment in its current state. Tech support and I cannot determine exactly what is wrong after running through some troubleshooting steps, so they say I need to send it back to their facility. The best I can come up with is that it got damaged during shipment on the way back. (I was not excited to see that they left some poor Fedex driver to handle a 130lb package on their own....) So the inverter is currently in transit back to Outback. Here is the question: Would you all be charging the customer for all the time spent on troubleshooting and shipping, or at some point do you eat some of these costs? Even though (I am fairly certain) that I have done nothing negligent and none of this is my fault... but I am still not sure if it is right to charge the customer for all this back and forth when my actions have not resulted in a fixed and usable inverter. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts and feedback on this sort of situation. Cheers, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 14:24:37 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 11:24:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged in shipping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C1CD8F8-B763-4BD3-9E58-354096018877@gmail.com> Hi dave Radian Control boards can definitely be field replaced. Done it many times Try kris stone. Hes ex outback tech, sells replacement parts, solid advice. Jay Peltz power. > On Jul 1, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > I thought I would pick the hive mind to get some thoughts on whose responsibility it is when you service a system and things go wrong beyond your control. > > Here is the situation: > Outback Radian GS8048 inverter (out of warranty) goes offline and stops working. Customer calls me to check it out, and in the meantime, they had an electrician rewire the backed up loads to bypass the inverter (not realizing there was a simple bypass switch...). By the time I get there the inverter is working again. I wire the backed up loads back to the inverter, educate them about the bypass switch, and call Outback. We see some erroneous data on Optics, and so they suggest I replace all the ethernet cables with shielded cat5e. I do that, and charge the customer for the visit. > > A few days later, the inverter goes stops working again. I go back out and this time the issue is still active. Outback suspects it is one of the control boards, which cannot be field replaced. So the choices are send the whole inverter to Outback, or get a new Power stack for about $2500. So I send the inverter in. I offer to the customer to not have them pay for my labor this visit, since they already paid me to fix this issue and it did not work. > > Outback tests the inverter, finds no fault, although I ask them to replace the board anyway, since the fault was intermittent. They tested it and it was working then it left their facility. I receive it in a rough looking box. I go reinstall it, and the mate3 sees it, and the communications are okay, which is the original issue that I sent it in for. But now it will not put out any AC voltage. So a completely different issue, but still a useless piece of equipment in its current state. Tech support and I cannot determine exactly what is wrong after running through some troubleshooting steps, so they say I need to send it back to their facility. The best I can come up with is that it got damaged during shipment on the way back. (I was not excited to see that they left some poor Fedex driver to handle a 130lb package on their own....) So the inverter is currently in transit back to Outback. > > Here is the question: > Would you all be charging the customer for all the time spent on troubleshooting and shipping, or at some point do you eat some of these costs? Even though (I am fairly certain) that I have done nothing negligent and none of this is my fault... but I am still not sure if it is right to charge the customer for all this back and forth when my actions have not resulted in a fixed and usable inverter. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts and feedback on this sort of situation. > > Cheers, > Dave > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jul 1 13:02:58 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 10:02:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged in shipping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <170a36fe74e918ca0ed3d1f800497b32@127.0.0.1> Dave, I would bill the customer. I keep spares here for couple complete Schneider systems. If I even think there is an intermittent, I replace and run the ? here at the house. I am starting to install redundant systems for folks that are too remote. I think Outback needs to not be so accommodating as it hurts there reputation. The gear wears out and needs to be replaced if it is up there in years and giving signs of failure. Once the warranty is gone it is time to let clients decide how they will deal with a major failure. Pretty crazy that they did not know about AC bypass.... HTH ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 11:32:08 -0400, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Hi All, I thought I would pick the hive mind to get some thoughts on whose responsibility it is when you service a system and things go wrong beyond your control. Here is the situation: Outback Radian GS8048 inverter (out of warranty) goes offline and stops working. Customer calls me to check it out, and in the meantime, they had an electrician rewire the backed up loads to bypass the inverter (not realizing there was a simple bypass switch...). By the time I get there the inverter is working again. I wire the backed up loads back to the inverter, educate them about the bypass switch, and call Outback. We see some erroneous data on Optics, and so they suggest I replace all the ethernet cables with shielded cat5e. I do that, and charge the customer for the visit. A few days later, the inverter goes stops working again. I go back out and this time the issue is still active. Outback suspects it is one of the control boards, which cannot be field replaced. So the choices are send the whole inverter to Outback, or get a new Power stack for about $2500. So I send the inverter in. I offer to the customer to not have them pay for my labor this visit, since they already paid me to fix this issue and it did not work. Outback tests the inverter, finds no fault, although I ask them to replace the board anyway, since the fault was intermittent. They tested it and it was working then it left their facility. I receive it in a rough looking box. I go reinstall it, and the mate3 sees it, and the communications are okay, which is the original issue that I sent it in for. But now it will not put out any AC voltage. So a completely different issue, but still a useless piece of equipment in its current state. Tech support and I cannot determine exactly what is wrong after running through some troubleshooting steps, so they say I need to send it back to their facility. The best I can come up with is that it got damaged during shipment on the way back. (I was not excited to see that they left some poor Fedex driver to handle a 130lb package on their own....) So the inverter is currently in transit back to Outback. Here is the question: Would you all be charging the customer for all the time spent on troubleshooting and shipping, or at some point do you eat some of these costs? Even though (I am fairly certain) that I have done nothing negligent and none of this is my fault... but I am still not sure if it is right to charge the customer for all this back and forth when my actions have not resulted in a fixed and usable inverter. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts and feedback on this sort of situation. Cheers, Dave DAVE TEDEYAN, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com [3] Solar * Sustainability * Energy * Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.taitem.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 15:03:32 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 12:03:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged in shipping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave Wow it really sounds like a mess, logically you would charge the customer for your time but ethically or morally or as a humanitarian you would discount the cost, l have been in your shoes and it is a difficult position. I would have a conversation with the customer detailing your time and costs and come up with a number. Sure you can say it's this much and that's it but we are all in business to stay in business so customer satisfaction and good words go a long way to referrals. Jerry On Mon, Jul 1, 2019, 8:32 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > I thought I would pick the hive mind to get some thoughts on whose > responsibility it is when you service a system and things go wrong beyond > your control. > > Here is the situation: > Outback Radian GS8048 inverter (out of warranty) goes offline and stops > working. Customer calls me to check it out, and in the meantime, they had > an electrician rewire the backed up loads to bypass the inverter (not > realizing there was a simple bypass switch...). By the time I get there the > inverter is working again. I wire the backed up loads back to the inverter, > educate them about the bypass switch, and call Outback. We see some > erroneous data on Optics, and so they suggest I replace all the ethernet > cables with shielded cat5e. I do that, and charge the customer for the > visit. > > A few days later, the inverter goes stops working again. I go back out and > this time the issue is still active. Outback suspects it is one of the > control boards, which cannot be field replaced. So the choices are send the > whole inverter to Outback, or get a new Power stack for about $2500. So I > send the inverter in. I offer to the customer to not have them pay for my > labor this visit, since they already paid me to fix this issue and it did > not work. > > Outback tests the inverter, finds no fault, although I ask them to replace > the board anyway, since the fault was intermittent. They tested it and it > was working then it left their facility. I receive it in a rough looking > box. I go reinstall it, and the mate3 sees it, and the communications are > okay, which is the original issue that I sent it in for. But now it will > not put out any AC voltage. So a completely different issue, but still a > useless piece of equipment in its current state. Tech support and I cannot > determine exactly what is wrong after running through some troubleshooting > steps, so they say I need to send it back to their facility. The best I can > come up with is that it got damaged during shipment on the way back. (I was > not excited to see that they left some poor Fedex driver to handle a 130lb > package on their own....) So the inverter is currently in transit back to > Outback. > > Here is the question: > Would you all be charging the customer for all the time spent on > troubleshooting and shipping, or at some point do you eat some of these > costs? Even though (I am fairly certain) that I have done nothing negligent > and none of this is my fault... but I am still not sure if it is right to > charge the customer for all this back and forth when my actions have not > resulted in a fixed and usable inverter. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts > and feedback on this sort of situation. > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at mendocinosolar.com Mon Jul 1 19:23:37 2019 From: bruce at mendocinosolar.com (Bruce Erickson) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 16:23:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] spaghetti mat Message-ID: <6F576B61-698E-4CEC-96D5-7A98B8672BAF@mendocinosolar.com> Does anyone have any experience to share about using spaghetti mat for protecting comp or other roofs? Safety? Maximum pitch, etc? Or any other good roof protection techniques, now that we’re getting into hot weather season again. Thanks, Bruce Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax bruce at mendocinosolar.com Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Jul 2 07:22:14 2019 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 11:22:14 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] spaghetti mat In-Reply-To: <6F576B61-698E-4CEC-96D5-7A98B8672BAF@mendocinosolar.com> References: <6F576B61-698E-4CEC-96D5-7A98B8672BAF@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: The hotter it is the better. I like it as it softens up and I think it’s Safe to 30 degrees. We have only used it on asphalt. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Jul 1, 2019, at 7:05 PM, Bruce Erickson > wrote: Does anyone have any experience to share about using spaghetti mat for protecting comp or other roofs? Safety? Maximum pitch, etc? Or any other good roof protection techniques, now that we’re getting into hot weather season again. Thanks, Bruce Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax bruce at mendocinosolar.com Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Jul 2 09:13:02 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 06:13:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] spaghetti mat In-Reply-To: <6F576B61-698E-4CEC-96D5-7A98B8672BAF@mendocinosolar.com> References: <6F576B61-698E-4CEC-96D5-7A98B8672BAF@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Bruce, Yes, we use yellow spaghetti mat daily to protect the roof. Carpet scraps available from flooring dealers also work well. Both are good for up to about 30 degrees (7/12 roof). Spaghetti mat can be reused many times but can be slippery when wet. Thermo-ply or some other relatively thin board type materials can be really helpful for roof staging areas. August Luminalt On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 6:05 PM Bruce Erickson wrote: > Does anyone have any experience to share about using spaghetti mat for > protecting comp or other roofs? Safety? Maximum pitch, etc? > Or any other good roof protection techniques, now that we’re getting into > hot weather season again. > Thanks, > Bruce > > *Bruce Erickson* > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > *Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since* *1994* > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jul 2 11:43:28 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 08:43:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] spaghetti mat In-Reply-To: <6F576B61-698E-4CEC-96D5-7A98B8672BAF@mendocinosolar.com> References: <6F576B61-698E-4CEC-96D5-7A98B8672BAF@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: Fire season also! How does this impact fire safety on a roof please? It can't help right? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 16:23:37 -0700, Bruce Erickson wrote: Does anyone have any experience to share about using spaghetti mat for protecting comp or other roofs? Safety? Maximum pitch, etc? Or any other good roof protection techniques, now that we're getting into hot weather season again. Thanks, Bruce BRUCE ERICKSON Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax bruce at mendocinosolar.com [3] _Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since_ _1994_ -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:bruce at mendocinosolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue Jul 2 16:26:16 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 16:26:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged in shipping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi All, Thanks for the thoughts and opinions. It helps me a lot to get other opinions from people who have been doing this much longer than I. I am leaning towards the "don't charge any more until the issue is settled and then come up with a fair price" with the customer. Fortunately, I know that they are good people, who are also well connected in the area, so keeping a good relationship with them is certainly important. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 3:03 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Dave > Wow it really sounds like a mess, logically you would charge the customer > for your time but ethically or morally or as a humanitarian you would > discount the cost, l have been in your shoes and it is a difficult > position. I would have a conversation with the customer detailing your time > and costs and come up with a number. Sure you can say it's this much and > that's it but we are all in business to stay in business so customer > satisfaction and good words go a long way to referrals. > Jerry > > On Mon, Jul 1, 2019, 8:32 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >> Hi All, >> I thought I would pick the hive mind to get some thoughts on whose >> responsibility it is when you service a system and things go wrong beyond >> your control. >> >> Here is the situation: >> Outback Radian GS8048 inverter (out of warranty) goes offline and stops >> working. Customer calls me to check it out, and in the meantime, they had >> an electrician rewire the backed up loads to bypass the inverter (not >> realizing there was a simple bypass switch...). By the time I get there the >> inverter is working again. I wire the backed up loads back to the inverter, >> educate them about the bypass switch, and call Outback. We see some >> erroneous data on Optics, and so they suggest I replace all the ethernet >> cables with shielded cat5e. I do that, and charge the customer for the >> visit. >> >> A few days later, the inverter goes stops working again. I go back out >> and this time the issue is still active. Outback suspects it is one of the >> control boards, which cannot be field replaced. So the choices are send the >> whole inverter to Outback, or get a new Power stack for about $2500. So I >> send the inverter in. I offer to the customer to not have them pay for my >> labor this visit, since they already paid me to fix this issue and it did >> not work. >> >> Outback tests the inverter, finds no fault, although I ask them to >> replace the board anyway, since the fault was intermittent. They tested it >> and it was working then it left their facility. I receive it in a rough >> looking box. I go reinstall it, and the mate3 sees it, and the >> communications are okay, which is the original issue that I sent it in for. >> But now it will not put out any AC voltage. So a completely different >> issue, but still a useless piece of equipment in its current state. Tech >> support and I cannot determine exactly what is wrong after running through >> some troubleshooting steps, so they say I need to send it back to their >> facility. The best I can come up with is that it got damaged during >> shipment on the way back. (I was not excited to see that they left some >> poor Fedex driver to handle a 130lb package on their own....) So the >> inverter is currently in transit back to Outback. >> >> Here is the question: >> Would you all be charging the customer for all the time spent on >> troubleshooting and shipping, or at some point do you eat some of these >> costs? Even though (I am fairly certain) that I have done nothing negligent >> and none of this is my fault... but I am still not sure if it is right to >> charge the customer for all this back and forth when my actions have not >> resulted in a fixed and usable inverter. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts >> and feedback on this sort of situation. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >> B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Jul 2 17:08:54 2019 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 15:08:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged in shipping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, If you are not already....Make sure you keep communication with them open about the issue during this time...so you don’t spring the issue on them if/when it drags out being resolved. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Jul 2, 2019, at 2:26 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > Thanks for the thoughts and opinions. It helps me a lot to get other opinions from people who have been doing this much longer than I. I am leaning towards the "don't charge any more until the issue is settled and then come up with a fair price" with the customer. Fortunately, I know that they are good people, who are also well connected in the area, so keeping a good relationship with them is certainly important. > Cheers, > Dave > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > > >> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 3:03 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: >> Dave >> Wow it really sounds like a mess, logically you would charge the customer for your time but ethically or morally or as a humanitarian you would discount the cost, l have been in your shoes and it is a difficult position. I would have a conversation with the customer detailing your time and costs and come up with a number. Sure you can say it's this much and that's it but we are all in business to stay in business so customer satisfaction and good words go a long way to referrals. >> Jerry >> >>> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019, 8:32 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> I thought I would pick the hive mind to get some thoughts on whose responsibility it is when you service a system and things go wrong beyond your control. >>> >>> Here is the situation: >>> Outback Radian GS8048 inverter (out of warranty) goes offline and stops working. Customer calls me to check it out, and in the meantime, they had an electrician rewire the backed up loads to bypass the inverter (not realizing there was a simple bypass switch...). By the time I get there the inverter is working again. I wire the backed up loads back to the inverter, educate them about the bypass switch, and call Outback. We see some erroneous data on Optics, and so they suggest I replace all the ethernet cables with shielded cat5e. I do that, and charge the customer for the visit. >>> >>> A few days later, the inverter goes stops working again. I go back out and this time the issue is still active. Outback suspects it is one of the control boards, which cannot be field replaced. So the choices are send the whole inverter to Outback, or get a new Power stack for about $2500. So I send the inverter in. I offer to the customer to not have them pay for my labor this visit, since they already paid me to fix this issue and it did not work. >>> >>> Outback tests the inverter, finds no fault, although I ask them to replace the board anyway, since the fault was intermittent. They tested it and it was working then it left their facility. I receive it in a rough looking box. I go reinstall it, and the mate3 sees it, and the communications are okay, which is the original issue that I sent it in for. But now it will not put out any AC voltage. So a completely different issue, but still a useless piece of equipment in its current state. Tech support and I cannot determine exactly what is wrong after running through some troubleshooting steps, so they say I need to send it back to their facility. The best I can come up with is that it got damaged during shipment on the way back. (I was not excited to see that they left some poor Fedex driver to handle a 130lb package on their own....) So the inverter is currently in transit back to Outback. >>> >>> Here is the question: >>> Would you all be charging the customer for all the time spent on troubleshooting and shipping, or at some point do you eat some of these costs? Even though (I am fairly certain) that I have done nothing negligent and none of this is my fault... but I am still not sure if it is right to charge the customer for all this back and forth when my actions have not resulted in a fixed and usable inverter. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts and feedback on this sort of situation. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> Dave Tedeyan, PE >>> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >>> >>> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >>> www.taitem.com >>> >>> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >>> B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Jul 2 18:38:01 2019 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 15:38:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged in shipping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, Two more pieces... - keep notes and records of dates, times, activities and results for the entire process. - stay in regular communication with your clients, so that you’re working with them rather than for them. Allan Sindelar, Sindelar Solar > On Jul 2, 2019, at 1:26 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > Thanks for the thoughts and opinions. It helps me a lot to get other opinions from people who have been doing this much longer than I. I am leaning towards the "don't charge any more until the issue is settled and then come up with a fair price" with the customer. Fortunately, I know that they are good people, who are also well connected in the area, so keeping a good relationship with them is certainly important. > Cheers, > Dave > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > > >> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 3:03 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: >> Dave >> Wow it really sounds like a mess, logically you would charge the customer for your time but ethically or morally or as a humanitarian you would discount the cost, l have been in your shoes and it is a difficult position. I would have a conversation with the customer detailing your time and costs and come up with a number. Sure you can say it's this much and that's it but we are all in business to stay in business so customer satisfaction and good words go a long way to referrals. >> Jerry >> >>> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019, 8:32 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> I thought I would pick the hive mind to get some thoughts on whose responsibility it is when you service a system and things go wrong beyond your control. >>> >>> Here is the situation: >>> Outback Radian GS8048 inverter (out of warranty) goes offline and stops working. Customer calls me to check it out, and in the meantime, they had an electrician rewire the backed up loads to bypass the inverter (not realizing there was a simple bypass switch...). By the time I get there the inverter is working again. I wire the backed up loads back to the inverter, educate them about the bypass switch, and call Outback. We see some erroneous data on Optics, and so they suggest I replace all the ethernet cables with shielded cat5e. I do that, and charge the customer for the visit. >>> >>> A few days later, the inverter goes stops working again. I go back out and this time the issue is still active. Outback suspects it is one of the control boards, which cannot be field replaced. So the choices are send the whole inverter to Outback, or get a new Power stack for about $2500. So I send the inverter in. I offer to the customer to not have them pay for my labor this visit, since they already paid me to fix this issue and it did not work. >>> >>> Outback tests the inverter, finds no fault, although I ask them to replace the board anyway, since the fault was intermittent. They tested it and it was working then it left their facility. I receive it in a rough looking box. I go reinstall it, and the mate3 sees it, and the communications are okay, which is the original issue that I sent it in for. But now it will not put out any AC voltage. So a completely different issue, but still a useless piece of equipment in its current state. Tech support and I cannot determine exactly what is wrong after running through some troubleshooting steps, so they say I need to send it back to their facility. The best I can come up with is that it got damaged during shipment on the way back. (I was not excited to see that they left some poor Fedex driver to handle a 130lb package on their own....) So the inverter is currently in transit back to Outback. >>> >>> Here is the question: >>> Would you all be charging the customer for all the time spent on troubleshooting and shipping, or at some point do you eat some of these costs? Even though (I am fairly certain) that I have done nothing negligent and none of this is my fault... but I am still not sure if it is right to charge the customer for all this back and forth when my actions have not resulted in a fixed and usable inverter. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts and feedback on this sort of situation. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> Dave Tedeyan, PE >>> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >>> >>> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >>> www.taitem.com >>> >>> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >>> B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jul 2 22:12:12 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 19:12:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged in shipping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave: It is obvious that a lot of the problems are not your fault. It would seem unfair for you to bear the expense of circumstances not of your making. It is noble to have concern for the client’s best interest and there is a lot to say for giving a little to build a relationship. It seems to me this is a perfect chance to negotiate the charges. You might consider explaining carefully to the client what has transpired and ask them what they think is fair. You might be surprised at how much they appreciate your dilemma. You sound like a contractor with a conscience. Good for you. William PS: Need an empty Radian carton with all the packing? I got a few on the shelf… Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan *Sent:* Monday, July 1, 2019 8:32 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Damaged in shipping Hi All, I thought I would pick the hive mind to get some thoughts on whose responsibility it is when you service a system and things go wrong beyond your control. Here is the situation: Outback Radian GS8048 inverter (out of warranty) goes offline and stops working. Customer calls me to check it out, and in the meantime, they had an electrician rewire the backed up loads to bypass the inverter (not realizing there was a simple bypass switch...). By the time I get there the inverter is working again. I wire the backed up loads back to the inverter, educate them about the bypass switch, and call Outback. We see some erroneous data on Optics, and so they suggest I replace all the ethernet cables with shielded cat5e. I do that, and charge the customer for the visit. A few days later, the inverter goes stops working again. I go back out and this time the issue is still active. Outback suspects it is one of the control boards, which cannot be field replaced. So the choices are send the whole inverter to Outback, or get a new Power stack for about $2500. So I send the inverter in. I offer to the customer to not have them pay for my labor this visit, since they already paid me to fix this issue and it did not work. Outback tests the inverter, finds no fault, although I ask them to replace the board anyway, since the fault was intermittent. They tested it and it was working then it left their facility. I receive it in a rough looking box. I go reinstall it, and the mate3 sees it, and the communications are okay, which is the original issue that I sent it in for. But now it will not put out any AC voltage. So a completely different issue, but still a useless piece of equipment in its current state. Tech support and I cannot determine exactly what is wrong after running through some troubleshooting steps, so they say I need to send it back to their facility. The best I can come up with is that it got damaged during shipment on the way back. (I was not excited to see that they left some poor Fedex driver to handle a 130lb package on their own....) So the inverter is currently in transit back to Outback. Here is the question: Would you all be charging the customer for all the time spent on troubleshooting and shipping, or at some point do you eat some of these costs? Even though (I am fairly certain) that I have done nothing negligent and none of this is my fault... but I am still not sure if it is right to charge the customer for all this back and forth when my actions have not resulted in a fixed and usable inverter. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts and feedback on this sort of situation. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Jul 2 23:30:18 2019 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 20:30:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged in shipping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9569F4FF-99C5-47EE-BF2F-1A733C79F746@gmail.com> For the last five years, I start off by telling new off-grid clients that the available equipment is crap and that they should expect said equipment to fail and that they will be paying me a lot of money over the life of the system to journey out to troubleshoot and make repairs. All my clients come by referral, quite often from neighbors who’s SW’s and VFxs I installed have been running trouble free for for many, many years. I build a good system and go the extra mile for my clients but I refuse to subsidize manufactures by eating troubleshooting and repair costs. It seems like most of what I do these days is service related……..hmm Michael > On Jul 2, 2019, at 7:12 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Dave: > > It is obvious that a lot of the problems are not your fault. It would seem unfair for you to bear the expense of circumstances not of your making. It is noble to have concern for the client’s best interest and there is a lot to say for giving a little to build a relationship. > > It seems to me this is a perfect chance to negotiate the charges. You might consider explaining carefully to the client what has transpired and ask them what they think is fair. You might be surprised at how much they appreciate your dilemma. > > You sound like a contractor with a conscience. Good for you. > > William > > PS: Need an empty Radian carton with all the packing? I got a few on the shelf… > > Wm > > > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy > storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan > Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 8:32 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged in shipping > > Hi All, > I thought I would pick the hive mind to get some thoughts on whose responsibility it is when you service a system and things go wrong beyond your control. > > Here is the situation: > Outback Radian GS8048 inverter (out of warranty) goes offline and stops working. Customer calls me to check it out, and in the meantime, they had an electrician rewire the backed up loads to bypass the inverter (not realizing there was a simple bypass switch...). By the time I get there the inverter is working again. I wire the backed up loads back to the inverter, educate them about the bypass switch, and call Outback. We see some erroneous data on Optics, and so they suggest I replace all the ethernet cables with shielded cat5e. I do that, and charge the customer for the visit. > > A few days later, the inverter goes stops working again. I go back out and this time the issue is still active. Outback suspects it is one of the control boards, which cannot be field replaced. So the choices are send the whole inverter to Outback, or get a new Power stack for about $2500. So I send the inverter in. I offer to the customer to not have them pay for my labor this visit, since they already paid me to fix this issue and it did not work. > > Outback tests the inverter, finds no fault, although I ask them to replace the board anyway, since the fault was intermittent. They tested it and it was working then it left their facility. I receive it in a rough looking box. I go reinstall it, and the mate3 sees it, and the communications are okay, which is the original issue that I sent it in for. But now it will not put out any AC voltage. So a completely different issue, but still a useless piece of equipment in its current state. Tech support and I cannot determine exactly what is wrong after running through some troubleshooting steps, so they say I need to send it back to their facility. The best I can come up with is that it got damaged during shipment on the way back. (I was not excited to see that they left some poor Fedex driver to handle a 130lb package on their own....) So the inverter is currently in transit back to Outback. > > Here is the question: > Would you all be charging the customer for all the time spent on troubleshooting and shipping, or at some point do you eat some of these costs? Even though (I am fairly certain) that I have done nothing negligent and none of this is my fault... but I am still not sure if it is right to charge the customer for all this back and forth when my actions have not resulted in a fixed and usable inverter. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts and feedback on this sort of situation. > > Cheers, > Dave > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Thu Jul 4 14:09:48 2019 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 12:09:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Consolidating meters Message-ID: Happy 4th Wrenches! Has anyone ever been through the process of consolidating utility electric meters for a client? We're talking to an HOA that has 15 meters throughout the community for common area loads (clubhouse, pool pump, lighting, fountain...) so they're paying a fixed monthly charge on each in addition to energy and demand charges. Consolidating to a single master meter (possibly with sub-metering) would likely lower their costs on its own, and (more importantly?) would improve the value proposition for a PV+ESS installation. We're not sure if the community is served by a single or multiple transformers yet, but if it is just one then the process should be straightforward from a technical standpoint. The interwebs tell me that some providers (seems like mostly co-ops) are open to this, but I can't find anything for this particular utility. Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Jul 5 07:57:05 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 07:57:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Consolidating meters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72344a71-7c5f-c51e-60b7-de44660346e1@entech-engineering.com> I used to work for a utility and it is utility dependent. The key I think is whether all the submetering customers are actually owned by the same entity.  For example, a commercial complex may have several building on site, each submetered.  The whole complex could be master metered at the service delivery point.  If so, master metering will save in several ways, most notably the monthly charge, but demand charges and possibly a reduction in the energy charge depending upon the tariff can also occur.  The utility should be able to run the analysis for you. I would request from the utility the details on master metering at the location.  This will quickly get you into their domain/processes. Unless you have experience in this area, it can be difficult to calculate the cost/benefit.  Chris On 7/4/2019 2:09 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote: > > Happy 4th Wrenches!  Has anyone ever been through the process of > consolidating utility electric meters for a client?  We're talking to > an HOA that has 15 meters throughout the community for common area > loads (clubhouse, pool pump, lighting, fountain...) so they're paying > a fixed monthly charge on each in addition to energy and demand > charges. Consolidating to a single master meter (possibly with > sub-metering) would likely lower their costs on its own, and (more > importantly?) would improve the value proposition for a PV+ESS > installation.  We're not sure if the community is served by a single > or multiple transformers yet, but if it is just one then the process > should be straightforward from a technical standpoint.  The interwebs > tell me that some providers (seems like mostly co-ops) are open to > this, but I can't find anything for this particular utility. > > > Regards, > > > Andrew Truitt > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > Logo > > > > The content of this email is confidential and intended for the > recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share > any part of this message with any third party, without a written > consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please > reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can > ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Fri Jul 5 13:52:49 2019 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 11:52:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Consolidating meters In-Reply-To: <72344a71-7c5f-c51e-60b7-de44660346e1@entech-engineering.com> References: <72344a71-7c5f-c51e-60b7-de44660346e1@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Thanks fellas. Todd, these meters are already on a single account but NJ's remote net metering law only covers public entities 😠. Chris, all meters are owned by the same entity (the HOA). We have a call into the utility (PSE&G). We do not have experience in this area so any advice you may have on how to be successful in this endeavour based on your time on the other side of the curtain would be appreciated. Would an entity like this (a community with ~200 homes) typically be served by a single transformer or multiple? If a single then the simplest / most attainable solution would be to re-route the 15 meter circuits to a pad-mounted panelboard / main meter on the secondary side of the transformer, right? Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 5:57 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > I used to work for a utility and it is utility dependent. The key I think > is whether all the submetering customers are actually owned by the same > entity. For example, a commercial complex may have several building on > site, each submetered. The whole complex could be master metered at the > service delivery point. If so, master metering will save in several ways, > most notably the monthly charge, but demand charges and possibly a > reduction in the energy charge depending upon the tariff can also occur. > The utility should be able to run the analysis for you. I would request > from the utility the details on master metering at the location. This will > quickly get you into their domain/processes. Unless you have experience in > this area, it can be difficult to calculate the cost/benefit. Chris > > > On 7/4/2019 2:09 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote: > > > Happy 4th Wrenches! Has anyone ever been through the process of > consolidating utility electric meters for a client? We're talking to an > HOA that has 15 meters throughout the community for common area loads > (clubhouse, pool pump, lighting, fountain...) so they're paying a fixed > monthly charge on each in addition to energy and demand charges. > Consolidating to a single master meter (possibly with sub-metering) would > likely lower their costs on its own, and (more importantly?) would improve > the value proposition for a PV+ESS installation. We're not sure if the > community is served by a single or multiple transformers yet, but if it is > just one then the process should be straightforward from a technical > standpoint. The interwebs tell me that some providers (seems like mostly > co-ops) are open to this, but I can't find anything for this particular > utility. > > > Regards, > > > Andrew Truitt > > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > [image: Logo] > > > > The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient > specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of > this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. > If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and > follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not > occur in the future. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.irish at suncommon.com Sat Jul 6 12:27:05 2019 From: jeff.irish at suncommon.com (Jeff Irish) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 12:27:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Consolidating meters In-Reply-To: References: <72344a71-7c5f-c51e-60b7-de44660346e1@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Andrew, another thing to look out for is to make sure consolidation doesn't result in non-demand accounts becoming a consolidated demand account. In some of our territories, 2000 kWh/month or 15 minutes over 10 kW usage can push an account into a demand account. Jeff On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 7:44 PM Andrew Truitt wrote: > > Thanks fellas. Todd, these meters are already on a single account but > NJ's remote net metering law only covers public entities 😠. > > Chris, all meters are owned by the same entity (the HOA). We have a call > into the utility (PSE&G). We do not have experience in this area so any > advice you may have on how to be successful in this endeavour based on your > time on the other side of the curtain would be appreciated. Would an > entity like this (a community with ~200 homes) typically be served by a > single transformer or multiple? If a single then the simplest / most > attainable solution would be to re-route the 15 meter circuits to a > pad-mounted panelboard / main meter on the secondary side of the > transformer, right? > > > Regards, > > > Andrew Truitt > > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > [image: Logo] > > > > The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient > specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of > this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. > If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and > follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not > occur in the future. > > > > On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 5:57 AM Christopher Warfel < > cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > >> I used to work for a utility and it is utility dependent. The key I think >> is whether all the submetering customers are actually owned by the same >> entity. For example, a commercial complex may have several building on >> site, each submetered. The whole complex could be master metered at the >> service delivery point. If so, master metering will save in several ways, >> most notably the monthly charge, but demand charges and possibly a >> reduction in the energy charge depending upon the tariff can also occur. >> The utility should be able to run the analysis for you. I would request >> from the utility the details on master metering at the location. This will >> quickly get you into their domain/processes. Unless you have experience in >> this area, it can be difficult to calculate the cost/benefit. Chris >> >> >> On 7/4/2019 2:09 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote: >> >> >> Happy 4th Wrenches! Has anyone ever been through the process of >> consolidating utility electric meters for a client? We're talking to an >> HOA that has 15 meters throughout the community for common area loads >> (clubhouse, pool pump, lighting, fountain...) so they're paying a fixed >> monthly charge on each in addition to energy and demand charges. >> Consolidating to a single master meter (possibly with sub-metering) would >> likely lower their costs on its own, and (more importantly?) would improve >> the value proposition for a PV+ESS installation. We're not sure if the >> community is served by a single or multiple transformers yet, but if it is >> just one then the process should be straightforward from a technical >> standpoint. The interwebs tell me that some providers (seems like mostly >> co-ops) are open to this, but I can't find anything for this particular >> utility. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> Andrew Truitt >> >> www.dr.ventures >> d: 202.486.7507 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 >> Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 >> >> [image: Logo] >> >> >> >> The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient >> specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of >> this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. >> If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and >> follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not >> occur in the future. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Jeff Irish, PE* | VP & General Manager | *sun*common 13 Hook Road Rhinebeck, NY 12572 845-876-3767 x 110 | jeff.irish @suncommon.com | www.suncommon.com SunCommon believes that everyone has the right to a healthy environment and brighter future – and renewable energy is where it starts. Energy from the sun can power our lives and build vibrant communities. Our mission is to tear down barriers to clean energy and use our business as a force for good. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sat Jul 6 16:02:45 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 16:02:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Consolidating meters In-Reply-To: References: <72344a71-7c5f-c51e-60b7-de44660346e1@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <1ce6986e-0192-f9f5-edd8-579c26e783ac@entech-engineering.com> Good point Jeff, HOA could all of a sudden be a commercial demand account.  I think you have to wait for PSEG to tell you what they allow.  Every situation seems unique, so it is difficult to say what is typical. They may be served by multiple service points. PSEG has that information.  I think it will save you a lot of running around if you get into a discussion with the Customer Service of Distribution Engineering sides of the company.  If it is served by one xfmr than the meter solution would be to meter onthe secondary side.  But again, Jeff brings up a good point. PSEG should be able to combine all 200 accounts into a single account for analysis.   They can tell you if demand charges would apply to the master account, and if by increased kWh billed in the aggregate, if that would push you into a lower kWh tariff rate. Chris On 7/5/2019 1:52 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote: > > Thanks fellas.  Todd, these meters are already on a single account but > NJ's remote net metering law only covers public entities 😠. > > Chris, all meters are owned by the same entity (the HOA). We have a > call into the utility (PSE&G).  We do not have experience in this area > so any advice you may have on how to be successful in this endeavour > based on your time on the other side of the curtain would be > appreciated.  Would an entity like this (a community with ~200 homes) > typically be served by a single transformer or multiple?  If a single > then the simplest / most attainable solution would be to re-route the > 15 meter circuits to a pad-mounted panelboard / main meter on the > secondary side of the transformer, right? > > > Regards, > > > Andrew Truitt > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > Logo > > > > The content of this email is confidential and intended for the > recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share > any part of this message with any third party, without a written > consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please > reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can > ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. > > > > > On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 5:57 AM Christopher Warfel > > wrote: > > I used to work for a utility and it is utility dependent. The key > I think is whether all the submetering customers are actually > owned by the same entity.  For example, a commercial complex may > have several building on site, each submetered.  The whole complex > could be master metered at the service delivery point.  If so, > master metering will save in several ways, most notably the > monthly charge, but demand charges and possibly a reduction in the > energy charge depending upon the tariff can also occur.  The > utility should be able to run the analysis for you. I would > request from the utility the details on master metering at the > location.  This will quickly get you into their domain/processes.  > Unless you have experience in this area, it can be difficult to > calculate the cost/benefit.  Chris > > > On 7/4/2019 2:09 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote: >> >> Happy 4th Wrenches!  Has anyone ever been through the process of >> consolidating utility electric meters for a client?  We're >> talking to an HOA that has 15 meters throughout the community for >> common area loads (clubhouse, pool pump, lighting, fountain...) >> so they're paying a fixed monthly charge on each in addition to >> energy and demand charges. Consolidating to a single master meter >> (possibly with sub-metering) would likely lower their costs on >> its own, and (more importantly?) would improve the value >> proposition for a PV+ESS installation.  We're not sure if the >> community is served by a single or multiple transformers yet, but >> if it is just one then the process should be straightforward from >> a technical standpoint.  The interwebs tell me that some >> providers (seems like mostly co-ops) are open to this, but I >> can't find anything for this particular utility. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> Andrew Truitt >> www.dr.ventures >> d: 202.486.7507 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 >> Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 >> >> Logo >> >> >> >> The content of this email is confidential and intended for the >> recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to >> share any part of this message with any third party, without a >> written consent of the sender. If you received this message by >> mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its >> deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in >> the future. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Mon Jul 8 09:14:33 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 09:14:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Consolidating meters In-Reply-To: <1ce6986e-0192-f9f5-edd8-579c26e783ac@entech-engineering.com> References: <72344a71-7c5f-c51e-60b7-de44660346e1@entech-engineering.com> <1ce6986e-0192-f9f5-edd8-579c26e783ac@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Andrew, We did this in upstate NY for a housing coop with 12 meters, on two separate transformers. Our utility put them on a demand meter immediately even though the demand was never that high. Seems like others have already warned you to look into that. Another snag was that in NY it required a petition to the Public Service Commission to allow master metering. There were certain contracts that needed to be in place for the protection of the end customer. (i.e., what if the coop fails to pay some bills, but the end customers are paying the coop. Then it is the end customer that gets screwed over when the power gets cut off.) They also had a set list of approved meters that can be used for submetering. We were planning on using eGauges, but ended up needing to put in an approved glass meter as well. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Sat, Jul 6, 2019 at 4:03 PM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > Good point Jeff, HOA could all of a sudden be a commercial demand > account. I think you have to wait for PSEG to tell you what they allow. > Every situation seems unique, so it is difficult to say what is typical. > They may be served by multiple service points. PSEG has that information. > I think it will save you a lot of running around if you get into a > discussion with the Customer Service of Distribution Engineering sides of > the company. If it is served by one xfmr than the meter solution would be > to meter onthe secondary side. But again, Jeff brings up a good point. > PSEG should be able to combine all 200 accounts into a single account for > analysis. They can tell you if demand charges would apply to the master > account, and if by increased kWh billed in the aggregate, if that would > push you into a lower kWh tariff rate. Chris > On 7/5/2019 1:52 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote: > > > Thanks fellas. Todd, these meters are already on a single account but > NJ's remote net metering law only covers public entities 😠. > > Chris, all meters are owned by the same entity (the HOA). We have a call > into the utility (PSE&G). We do not have experience in this area so any > advice you may have on how to be successful in this endeavour based on your > time on the other side of the curtain would be appreciated. Would an > entity like this (a community with ~200 homes) typically be served by a > single transformer or multiple? If a single then the simplest / most > attainable solution would be to re-route the 15 meter circuits to a > pad-mounted panelboard / main meter on the secondary side of the > transformer, right? > > > Regards, > > > Andrew Truitt > > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > [image: Logo] > > > > The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient > specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of > this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. > If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and > follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not > occur in the future. > > > > On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 5:57 AM Christopher Warfel < > cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > >> I used to work for a utility and it is utility dependent. The key I think >> is whether all the submetering customers are actually owned by the same >> entity. For example, a commercial complex may have several building on >> site, each submetered. The whole complex could be master metered at the >> service delivery point. If so, master metering will save in several ways, >> most notably the monthly charge, but demand charges and possibly a >> reduction in the energy charge depending upon the tariff can also occur. >> The utility should be able to run the analysis for you. I would request >> from the utility the details on master metering at the location. This will >> quickly get you into their domain/processes. Unless you have experience in >> this area, it can be difficult to calculate the cost/benefit. Chris >> >> >> On 7/4/2019 2:09 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote: >> >> >> Happy 4th Wrenches! Has anyone ever been through the process of >> consolidating utility electric meters for a client? We're talking to an >> HOA that has 15 meters throughout the community for common area loads >> (clubhouse, pool pump, lighting, fountain...) so they're paying a fixed >> monthly charge on each in addition to energy and demand charges. >> Consolidating to a single master meter (possibly with sub-metering) would >> likely lower their costs on its own, and (more importantly?) would improve >> the value proposition for a PV+ESS installation. We're not sure if the >> community is served by a single or multiple transformers yet, but if it is >> just one then the process should be straightforward from a technical >> standpoint. The interwebs tell me that some providers (seems like mostly >> co-ops) are open to this, but I can't find anything for this particular >> utility. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> Andrew Truitt >> >> www.dr.ventures >> d: 202.486.7507 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 >> Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 >> >> [image: Logo] >> >> >> >> The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient >> specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of >> this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. >> If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and >> follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not >> occur in the future. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Mon Jul 8 12:00:12 2019 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 10:00:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Consolidating meters In-Reply-To: References: <72344a71-7c5f-c51e-60b7-de44660346e1@entech-engineering.com> <1ce6986e-0192-f9f5-edd8-579c26e783ac@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Thanks all! To clarify, we're only looking at consolidating meters for the common area loads, not the individual residences. The dwellings all have their own PSE&G accounts and will stay on their residential rate. The common area meter tariffs already have demand changes, in some case up to $30/kW in the summer, which is a major driver for consolidation as the aggregated demand can be addressed with storage more cost-effectively. We've engaged a local EE that has consolidated meters in PSG&E territory and is sending over a feasibility study proposal today. Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 7:14 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Andrew, > We did this in upstate NY for a housing coop with 12 meters, on two > separate transformers. Our utility put them on a demand meter immediately > even though the demand was never that high. Seems like others have already > warned you to look into that. Another snag was that in NY it required a > petition to the Public Service Commission to allow master metering. There > were certain contracts that needed to be in place for the protection of the > end customer. (i.e., what if the coop fails to pay some bills, but the end > customers are paying the coop. Then it is the end customer that gets > screwed over when the power gets cut off.) They also had a set list of > approved meters that can be used for submetering. We were planning on using > eGauges, but ended up needing to put in an approved glass meter as well. > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > > > On Sat, Jul 6, 2019 at 4:03 PM Christopher Warfel < > cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > >> Good point Jeff, HOA could all of a sudden be a commercial demand >> account. I think you have to wait for PSEG to tell you what they allow. >> Every situation seems unique, so it is difficult to say what is typical. >> They may be served by multiple service points. PSEG has that information. >> I think it will save you a lot of running around if you get into a >> discussion with the Customer Service of Distribution Engineering sides of >> the company. If it is served by one xfmr than the meter solution would be >> to meter onthe secondary side. But again, Jeff brings up a good point. >> PSEG should be able to combine all 200 accounts into a single account for >> analysis. They can tell you if demand charges would apply to the master >> account, and if by increased kWh billed in the aggregate, if that would >> push you into a lower kWh tariff rate. Chris >> On 7/5/2019 1:52 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote: >> >> >> Thanks fellas. Todd, these meters are already on a single account but >> NJ's remote net metering law only covers public entities 😠. >> >> Chris, all meters are owned by the same entity (the HOA). We have a call >> into the utility (PSE&G). We do not have experience in this area so any >> advice you may have on how to be successful in this endeavour based on your >> time on the other side of the curtain would be appreciated. Would an >> entity like this (a community with ~200 homes) typically be served by a >> single transformer or multiple? If a single then the simplest / most >> attainable solution would be to re-route the 15 meter circuits to a >> pad-mounted panelboard / main meter on the secondary side of the >> transformer, right? >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> Andrew Truitt >> >> www.dr.ventures >> d: 202.486.7507 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 >> Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 >> >> [image: Logo] >> >> >> >> The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient >> specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of >> this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. >> If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and >> follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not >> occur in the future. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 5:57 AM Christopher Warfel < >> cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: >> >>> I used to work for a utility and it is utility dependent. The key I >>> think is whether all the submetering customers are actually owned by the >>> same entity. For example, a commercial complex may have several building >>> on site, each submetered. The whole complex could be master metered at the >>> service delivery point. If so, master metering will save in several ways, >>> most notably the monthly charge, but demand charges and possibly a >>> reduction in the energy charge depending upon the tariff can also occur. >>> The utility should be able to run the analysis for you. I would request >>> from the utility the details on master metering at the location. This will >>> quickly get you into their domain/processes. Unless you have experience in >>> this area, it can be difficult to calculate the cost/benefit. Chris >>> >>> >>> On 7/4/2019 2:09 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote: >>> >>> >>> Happy 4th Wrenches! Has anyone ever been through the process of >>> consolidating utility electric meters for a client? We're talking to an >>> HOA that has 15 meters throughout the community for common area loads >>> (clubhouse, pool pump, lighting, fountain...) so they're paying a fixed >>> monthly charge on each in addition to energy and demand charges. >>> Consolidating to a single master meter (possibly with sub-metering) would >>> likely lower their costs on its own, and (more importantly?) would improve >>> the value proposition for a PV+ESS installation. We're not sure if the >>> community is served by a single or multiple transformers yet, but if it is >>> just one then the process should be straightforward from a technical >>> standpoint. The interwebs tell me that some providers (seems like mostly >>> co-ops) are open to this, but I can't find anything for this particular >>> utility. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> >>> Andrew Truitt >>> >>> www.dr.ventures >>> d: 202.486.7507 >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 >>> Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 >>> >>> [image: Logo] >>> >>> >>> >>> The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient >>> specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of >>> this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. >>> If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and >>> follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not >>> occur in the future. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Jul 8 17:29:02 2019 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 17:29:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Consolidating meters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's the consumer's right to have one point of metering and distribute the power to their loads. I would not ask the utility, I would tell them I was rewiring and wanted to have only one metering point. It's stupid to pay for all those meters. Most customers don't realize there is a cost to having multiple meters and the problems it causes when it comes to self consumption. We regularly consolidate customers who have one meter for each guest cottage or main house, once they understand the advantages they rewire and tell the utility to remove the redundant meters. On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 2:30 PM Andrew Truitt wrote: > > Happy 4th Wrenches! Has anyone ever been through the process of > consolidating utility electric meters for a client? We're talking to an > HOA that has 15 meters throughout the community for common area loads > (clubhouse, pool pump, lighting, fountain...) so they're paying a fixed > monthly charge on each in addition to energy and demand charges. > Consolidating to a single master meter (possibly with sub-metering) would > likely lower their costs on its own, and (more importantly?) would improve > the value proposition for a PV+ESS installation. We're not sure if the > community is served by a single or multiple transformers yet, but if it is > just one then the process should be straightforward from a technical > standpoint. The interwebs tell me that some providers (seems like mostly > co-ops) are open to this, but I can't find anything for this particular > utility. > > > Regards, > > > Andrew Truitt > > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > [image: Logo] > > > > The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient > specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of > this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. > If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and > follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not > occur in the future. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Tue Jul 9 14:13:28 2019 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:13:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cybo Energy Message-ID: Hello all, Anyone have any experience with Cybo Inverters? I have a colleague that is in love but I just have not heard anything at all about this product. -- Sunny Regards, Gary Easton *Appalachian Renewable Power **Proud to Celebrate over 10 years in business* 10131 Haga Ridge Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV #031508-29 T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” ~Gandhi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Tue Jul 9 18:07:02 2019 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:07:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cybo Energy Message-ID: Hello, Gary & All~ Cybo Energy is one of those rare companies where one can actually speak with the top guy. George Cheng, PhD, is their resident genius & communications with him are prompt & pleasant. I really appreciate that top level access. +1 to Cybo for innovation--they keep boldly taking their Cybo micro inverter line into new territory & carrying the UL listing with them. Running motorized loads on a "sun direct" basis always seemed a bit of a stretch because of pesky things like motor startup surge & inductive loading...so my only experience has been with their water heating type inverters where the resistive load always has a power factor of one. -1 to Cybo for not having a crazy long warranty to match other micro inverters, but Dr. Cheng is persuaded that would put them in a high risk situation. He's probably right about that because--hey--25 years is a long time. Around 2013, I was an early adopter on their water heating inverter. I mounted it indoors so there would be no heat loading on the case & I had to be very creative to contain the insulated wiring. I also was careful with ohm's law when choosing the resistive load (sending heat to an aquaculture tank) & I vetted the load resistance with George. The unit failed...& it seems like that was less than a year after initial power-up; George replaced it with their improved version but that also failed after a couple of years & the company was not willing to stand for another replacement. George told me that the unit had been re-designed again; to him that meant we should be happy to pay again because it's so much better. To me that meant the R & D was being done on the customer's nickel & my client declined to buy another one. I had paired it with four 60 cell LG Neons--around 330 watts each in that era. George told me that their early components were suffering due to the input DC voltage but he says now they're OK even for 72 cell modules. I have no other sales opportunities for it these daze, however, so someone else needs to try it & report back to the list after a few years. Telltale sign for the power pioneers: they're the ones with the arrows in their backs. On a brighter note: The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 21:59:09 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 19:59:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydro system Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I've got a site visit for a largish ranch hydro site tomorrow. I am relying on info from someone who doesn't know all of the nitty gritty details about how the power system works (like size) but I want to try to educate myself a bit. I know a bit about hydro but I'm no expert. As its been reported, this site runs hydro direct and has on off-grid solar system backup the hydro. There is a manual transfer switch that allows them to select between power systems. They are annoyed because lately they are getting clogged up a lot and take a long walk up the hill to switch systems. They would like this to be automatic. My first question is can you run a power system from hydro direct in the 10 -100 kW range? If so, how do you adjust for varying load? Can you have a dynamic turbine speed put out good 60 Hz power by adjusting rotor current? I get the impression it works fairly well typically but high water can wreak havoc on the hydro. I'd like to offer a more automatic/robust solution. To me, it makes sense to rectify the hydro and feed the battery bank directly and use the inverters to serve the load. If it clogs up, I can give them an alarm. Another option may be to feed the inverters AC input with the hydro, and the internal transfer switch will transfer to battery power when the hydro voltage collapses. My third solution would be to replace the manual transfer switch with an automatic solution. To me, the rectification solution seems like its the most straight-forward because it doesn't rely on the power quality of the hydro turbine. Feeding an AC input on the inverter and/or ATS will depend somewhat on voltage and frequency regulation of the hydro system. I know that the info I'm giving here is probably flawed but I'd be interested in what you think is the best solution for this situation. -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 22:10:03 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 19:10:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydro system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You need head (pressure) and GPM, clean degree free, no silt, a catch basin to stall the water, big pipe long run, try to keep the rollercoasters out, (rises), and no 90's, that's just to start. Low head waterwheels can produce lots of power to but you need a river of water. Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Wed Jul 10 22:21:42 2019 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 19:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydro system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1562811702.547924903@webmail.finestplanet.com> isn't there a formula like head in feet X gpm divided by 10 = approximate wattage? todd On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 7:10pm, "Jerry Shafer" said: You need head (pressure) and GPM, clean degree free, no silt, a catch basin to stall the water, big pipe long run, try to keep the rollercoasters out, (rises), and no 90's, that's just to start. Low head waterwheels can produce lots of power to but you need a river of water. Jerry Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 23:11:14 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:11:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydro system In-Reply-To: <1562811702.547924903@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1562811702.547924903@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: This is from the web and its metric so dont get messed up. You need big GPM and big head (pressure) yes it is multiplied but 1 × anything is still 1, 2 x is not much better. Do you have any values yet, elevation change, Jerry On Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 8:00 PM wrote: > isn't there a formula like head in feet X gpm divided by 10 = approximate > wattage? > > todd > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 7:10pm, "Jerry Shafer" < > jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> said: > > You need head (pressure) and GPM, clean degree free, no silt, a catch > basin to stall the water, big pipe long run, try to keep the rollercoasters > out, (rises), and no 90's, that's just to start. Low head waterwheels can > produce lots of power to but you need a river of water. > Jerry > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot_20190710-200641_Google.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 465349 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 23:23:43 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 21:23:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydro system In-Reply-To: References: <1562811702.547924903@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: I don't really want to mess with changing the hydro, I'm more interested in alleviating the manual transfer between power systems. I'm planning on putting a power quality recorder/oscilloscope so that I understand what type of power we are working with. Its semi-large (from my perspective) because I believe that they transmit at 11.4 kV and step it back down. That tells me that the penstock is long (and expensive). In some ways my post is premature, but the big question is can you have a largish hydro feed a load direct without storage (maybe there is a dynamic load bank or something like that? I like the idea of feeding batteries direct and letting the inverters make good quality power but I'm ignorant about hydro on this scale. I appreciate the ideas On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 9:11 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > This is from the web and its metric so dont get messed up. You need big > GPM and big head (pressure) yes it is multiplied but 1 × anything is still > 1, 2 x is not much better. > Do you have any values yet, elevation change, > Jerry > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 8:00 PM wrote: > >> isn't there a formula like head in feet X gpm divided by 10 = approximate >> wattage? >> >> todd >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 7:10pm, "Jerry Shafer" < >> jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> said: >> >> You need head (pressure) and GPM, clean degree free, no silt, a catch >> basin to stall the water, big pipe long run, try to keep the rollercoasters >> out, (rises), and no 90's, that's just to start. Low head waterwheels can >> produce lots of power to but you need a river of water. >> Jerry >> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 23:56:29 2019 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:56:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydro system In-Reply-To: References: <1562811702.547924903@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Mac, I work with hydro power plants from 50W to 100kw. AC direct, DC, AC to DC, stand alone and utility connected, in all sorts of configurations. Report back with the turbine manufacturer and more specifics so that I may better advise you. There are many routes one can take. Clogging and sediment problems are usually a result of poorly designed intakes. Anything other than a Coanda design is going to be problematic. When I work on existing systems, thats the first place to make improvements. Poorly designed penstocks create all sorts of negative phenomena. I’ve always found generic formulas for estimating potential power output to be inaccurate. I gather data and then present it to which ever turbine manufacturer I think is suited for the project and let them determine the output. Given the size you are describing, the turbine is probably made by Canyon or Hydro Stock (now out of business). Canyon’s engineers will be able to assist you in adding automation and control to such a power plant. I’m currently working to remove a PLC based control system designed by an electrical contractor that was intended to do what you describe. It was a well intentioned attempt but never really worked correctly. Michael > On Jul 10, 2019, at 8:23 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > I don't really want to mess with changing the hydro, I'm more interested in alleviating the manual transfer between power systems. I'm planning on putting a power quality recorder/oscilloscope so that I understand what type of power we are working with. Its semi-large (from my perspective) because I believe that they transmit at 11.4 kV and step it back down. That tells me that the penstock is long (and expensive). In some ways my post is premature, but the big question is can you have a largish hydro feed a load direct without storage (maybe there is a dynamic load bank or something like that? I like the idea of feeding batteries direct and letting the inverters make good quality power but I'm ignorant about hydro on this scale. > > I appreciate the ideas > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 9:11 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > This is from the web and its metric so dont get messed up. You need big GPM and big head (pressure) yes it is multiplied but 1 × anything is still 1, 2 x is not much better. > Do you have any values yet, elevation change, > Jerry > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 8:00 PM > wrote: > isn't there a formula like head in feet X gpm divided by 10 = approximate wattage? > > todd > > > > > On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 7:10pm, "Jerry Shafer" > said: > > You need head (pressure) and GPM, clean degree free, no silt, a catch basin to stall the water, big pipe long run, try to keep the rollercoasters out, (rises), and no 90's, that's just to start. Low head waterwheels can produce lots of power to but you need a river of water. > Jerry > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Jul 11 02:25:59 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 01:25:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydro system In-Reply-To: References: <1562811702.547924903@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Hi i have only worked on two so disregard if i am off track. Bob Gudgel of Midnite solar helped me with ideas. It seemed to me the water keeps flowing and if no load the turbine went fastest. As the load increased the turbine slowed down, but generated more power until the turbine was overloaded. Then the power dropped. It is difficult to MPPT a turbine. Again Bob can help here. But a turbine larger than the load can load follow. I believe the Classic CC can be programed to load follow this goes back more than 10 years On Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 10:24 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > I don't really want to mess with changing the hydro, I'm more interested > in alleviating the manual transfer between power systems. I'm planning on > putting a power quality recorder/oscilloscope so that I understand what > type of power we are working with. Its semi-large (from my perspective) > because I believe that they transmit at 11.4 kV and step it back down. > That tells me that the penstock is long (and expensive). In some ways my > post is premature, but the big question is can you have a largish hydro > feed a load direct without storage (maybe there is a dynamic load bank or > something like that? I like the idea of feeding batteries direct and > letting the inverters make good quality power but I'm ignorant about hydro > on this scale. > > I appreciate the ideas > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 9:11 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> This is from the web and its metric so dont get messed up. You need big >> GPM and big head (pressure) yes it is multiplied but 1 × anything is still >> 1, 2 x is not much better. >> Do you have any values yet, elevation change, >> Jerry >> >> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 8:00 PM wrote: >> >>> isn't there a formula like head in feet X gpm divided by 10 = >>> approximate wattage? >>> >>> todd >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 7:10pm, "Jerry Shafer" < >>> jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> said: >>> >>> You need head (pressure) and GPM, clean degree free, no silt, a catch >>> basin to stall the water, big pipe long run, try to keep the rollercoasters >>> out, (rises), and no 90's, that's just to start. Low head waterwheels can >>> produce lots of power to but you need a river of water. >>> Jerry >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Jul 11 03:05:19 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 02:05:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydro system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Again from little experience, but a diversion valve of the size of the Penstock placed as far ahead of the turbine, (a long penstock reduces the turbulence, turbulence reduces the turbines power.) Tnhis selector valve can be AC or DC motorized, Belemo and other similar motors, they open slowly, drawing little electrical power. ( If I remember I have run up to 100 feet, on 18-2 wire. My guess is 14-2 UF would go over 250 feet, but do the Math. (I will look in my junk tomorrow to see if I can find a representative motor) I am guessing but your inlet is about 4" pipe and pool valves work. If you are in a freezing location, be sure to drill a weep hole to drain the pipe from the second source to the valve. On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:59 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I've got a site visit for a largish ranch hydro site tomorrow. I am > relying on info from someone who doesn't know all of the nitty gritty > details about how the power system works (like size) but I want to try to > educate myself a bit. I know a bit about hydro but I'm no expert. > > As its been reported, this site runs hydro direct and has on off-grid > solar system backup the hydro. There is a manual transfer switch that > allows them to select between power systems. They are annoyed because > lately they are getting clogged up a lot and take a long walk up the hill > to switch systems. They would like this to be automatic. > > My first question is can you run a power system from hydro direct in the > 10 -100 kW range? If so, how do you adjust for varying load? Can you have > a dynamic turbine speed put out good 60 Hz power by adjusting rotor > current? > > I get the impression it works fairly well typically but high water can > wreak havoc on the hydro. > > I'd like to offer a more automatic/robust solution. To me, it makes sense > to rectify the hydro and feed the battery bank directly and use the > inverters to serve the load. If it clogs up, I can give them an alarm. > Another option may be to feed the inverters AC input with the hydro, and > the internal transfer switch will transfer to battery power when the hydro > voltage collapses. My third solution would be to replace the manual > transfer switch with an automatic solution. > > To me, the rectification solution seems like its the most straight-forward > because it doesn't rely on the power quality of the hydro turbine. Feeding > an AC input on the inverter and/or ATS will depend somewhat on voltage and > frequency regulation of the hydro system. > > I know that the info I'm giving here is probably flawed but I'd be > interested in what you think is the best solution for this situation. > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex at blueskyenergyinc.com Thu Jul 11 10:51:18 2019 From: alex at blueskyenergyinc.com (Alex MeVay) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:51:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydro system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mac, We worked for a while building controls for one company in Oz doing small hydro, and I can share some observations, and things I learned coming from a solar background: > My first question is can you run a power system from hydro direct in the 10 -100 kW range? Yes, I believe this is common in that power range to avoid battery and BoS costs. A DC-coupled/battery-backed approach could be used where the water flow is seasonal or insufficient for loads, or where solar is added. > If so, how do you adjust for varying load? For smaller systems with "normal" (i.e., not "low-head") turbines, the water is pretty much either there or it isn't, so the turbine works with constant head. Typically, these are set up to run at full power, and a diversion load is used to regulate RPM (and frequency for AC systems). For AC systems, rotor/field current can be adjusted to regulate voltage, as you mentioned. For the DC systems we supported, we built our control algorithm to the turbine builder/installer's instructions, and rather than trying to MPPT the turbine as we would for solar, the controller was set to clamp the rectified turbine voltage to a fixed, user-adjustable value. At installation, after the nozzles and penstock were adjusted, the installer would manually adjust the turbine clamp voltage to maximize charging current, then leave the voltage there indefinitely, in effect doing MPPT once. Our controller used a diversion load to regulate the turbine voltage/RPM once the batteries were full. As you scale things up, the diversion load approach would seem to get a little silly, so adjusting the flow rate as Darryl suggested would seem to be the better, if more complex approach. Based on the info you gave for your customer's installation, it seems like the automatic transfer switch is a great idea, but it's probably not worth trying to DC-couple it if it's working well when not clogged. For some background and reference, here are some links to AC and DC hydro products from the company we worked with, and an excellent writeup of a personal small AC hydro installation that talks through the transmission and control issues in great detail: https://www.platypuspower.com.au/ https://ludens.cl/paradise/turbine/turbine.html https://ludens.cl/Electron/picelc/picelc.html https://ludens.cl/Electron/AVR/AVR.html Again, thank you Wrenches for all the knowledge you share. Alex MeVay Blue Sky Energy * http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com Genasun * http://www.genasun.com From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Jul 11 09:56:22 2019 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 07:56:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydro system In-Reply-To: <1562811702.547924903@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1562811702.547924903@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <015b01d537f0$6cf9b300$46ed1900$@OasisMontana.com> Check out http://www.dtlhydro.com/. They’re out of BC and have some excellent information (and products). Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of toddcory at finestplanet.com Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 8:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hydro system isn't there a formula like head in feet X gpm divided by 10 = approximate wattage? todd On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 7:10pm, "Jerry Shafer" > said: You need head (pressure) and GPM, clean degree free, no silt, a catch basin to stall the water, big pipe long run, try to keep the rollercoasters out, (rises), and no 90's, that's just to start. Low head waterwheels can produce lots of power to but you need a river of water. Jerry Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Tue Jul 16 18:31:11 2019 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 16:31:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IEC 62446-2018 Message-ID: Wrenches - Does anyone know of a way one might get their hands on a copy of the latest IEC 62446 standard without dropping $300+? Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Tue Jul 16 21:00:49 2019 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 18:00:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IEC 62446-2018 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_web Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 5:43 PM Andrew Truitt wrote: > > Wrenches - Does anyone know of a way one might get their hands on a copy > of the latest IEC 62446 standard without dropping $300+? > > > Regards, > > > Andrew Truitt > > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > [image: Logo] > > > > The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient > specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of > this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. > If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and > follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not > occur in the future. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jul 19 17:23:50 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:23:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System Message-ID: What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh range? Preferably Lithium. Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of 36kW, 120/240V? This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of things. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 19 17:28:36 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 14:28:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason I have seen Outback/Blue ion systems well into this size, personally l have systems with well into this range, l am to understand that PR has been going with the Blue Planet Energy Blue Ion with great sucess all over the size scale. Jerry On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 2:24 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh > range? Preferably Lithium. > > Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of > 36kW, 120/240V? > > This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with > recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of > things. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Fri Jul 19 18:10:29 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 12:10:29 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Seven to eight Tesla Powerwalls will get you that assuming that the service entrance is no bigger than 200A. marco On Friday, July 19, 2019, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh > range? Preferably Lithium. > > Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of > 36kW, 120/240V? > > This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with > recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of > things. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Jul 19 19:13:46 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 19:13:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001e01d53e87$9e49c740$dadd55c0$@glbcc.com> However they are not useable for off-grid, only grid tied, as I understand it. Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 6:10 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System Seven to eight Tesla Powerwalls will get you that assuming that the service entrance is no bigger than 200A. marco On Friday, July 19, 2019, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh range? Preferably Lithium. Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of 36kW, 120/240V? This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of things. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jul 20 10:43:55 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 07:43:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0F844E3C-9662-4583-B49A-E166AC50AB26@gmail.com> Hi Marco, Is the max surge 7kw, which is what is listed on line? Jay Peltz Power > On Jul 19, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > > Seven to eight Tesla Powerwalls will get you that assuming that the service entrance is no bigger than 200A. > > marco > >> On Friday, July 19, 2019, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh range? Preferably Lithium. >> >> Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of 36kW, 120/240V? >> >> This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of things. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Jul 20 10:56:47 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 07:56:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System In-Reply-To: <001e01d53e87$9e49c740$dadd55c0$@glbcc.com> References: <001e01d53e87$9e49c740$dadd55c0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Discover battery on a Schneider system. (20) X AES 6.5 KWH. I monitor it from home here. All configuration is automatic and the battery presents itself as a Battery Monitor without having to install shunts. Offgrid or Grid Tie. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 19:13:46 -0400, "Glenn Burt" wrote: However they are not useable for off-grid, only grid tied, as I understand it. Glenn FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Marco Mangelsdorf SENT: Friday, July 19, 2019 6:10 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System Seven to eight Tesla Powerwalls will get you that assuming that the service entrance is no bigger than 200A. marco On Friday, July 19, 2019, Jason Szumlanski wrote: What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh range? Preferably Lithium. Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of 36kW, 120/240V? This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of things. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Jul 20 12:25:39 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 11:25:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would look to Iron-Edison as they build systems up to this size using LiFe PO On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 4:24 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh > range? Preferably Lithium. > > Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of > 36kW, 120/240V? > > This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with > recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of > things. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Sat Jul 20 16:50:13 2019 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 10:50:13 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System In-Reply-To: <0F844E3C-9662-4583-B49A-E166AC50AB26@gmail.com> References: <0F844E3C-9662-4583-B49A-E166AC50AB26@gmail.com> Message-ID: Blue Ion 2.0 with Outback or SMA. Works every time. Blue Planet's tech support is great, the warranty is even better. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 10:36 AM Jay wrote: > Hi Marco, > > Is the max surge 7kw, which is what is listed on line? > > Jay > Peltz Power > > On Jul 19, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > > Seven to eight Tesla Powerwalls will get you that assuming that the > service entrance is no bigger than 200A. > > marco > > On Friday, July 19, 2019, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh >> range? Preferably Lithium. >> >> Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of >> 36kW, 120/240V? >> >> This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with >> recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of >> things. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Jul 20 17:13:41 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 15:13:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System In-Reply-To: References: <0F844E3C-9662-4583-B49A-E166AC50AB26@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think Outback is the only major inverter manufacturer that can do split phase 120/240 to that size. You have to go 3 phase for 36 kW continuous capacity with either Schneider or SMA. Good luck, sounds like a fun system to design. On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 2:50 PM Lou Russo wrote: > Blue Ion 2.0 with Outback or SMA. Works every time. > Blue Planet's tech support is great, the warranty is even better. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 10:36 AM Jay wrote: > >> Hi Marco, >> >> Is the max surge 7kw, which is what is listed on line? >> >> Jay >> Peltz Power >> >> On Jul 19, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf >> wrote: >> >> Seven to eight Tesla Powerwalls will get you that assuming that the >> service entrance is no bigger than 200A. >> >> marco >> >> On Friday, July 19, 2019, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh >>> range? Preferably Lithium. >>> >>> Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of >>> 36kW, 120/240V? >>> >>> This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with >>> recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of >>> things. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sat Jul 20 13:25:08 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 07:25:08 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System In-Reply-To: <0F844E3C-9662-4583-B49A-E166AC50AB26@gmail.com> References: <0F844E3C-9662-4583-B49A-E166AC50AB26@gmail.com> Message-ID: Si senor. 7 kW surge. On Saturday, July 20, 2019, Jay wrote: > Hi Marco, > > Is the max surge 7kw, which is what is listed on line? > > Jay > Peltz Power > > On Jul 19, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > > Seven to eight Tesla Powerwalls will get you that assuming that the > service entrance is no bigger than 200A. > > marco > > On Friday, July 19, 2019, Jason Szumlanski floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh >> range? Preferably Lithium. >> >> Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of >> 36kW, 120/240V? >> >> This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with >> recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of >> things. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jul 20 18:50:38 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 15:50:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System In-Reply-To: References: <0F844E3C-9662-4583-B49A-E166AC50AB26@gmail.com> Message-ID: <97D0CA73-F4FB-47EA-A723-4DCAC7B7ECD4@gmail.com> The other 2 that I can think of are Pika (not sure they can parallel stack) and Princeton energy for an all in one unit. Yea so far Schneider can only do 4 x 6800w single phase. Jay > On Jul 20, 2019, at 2:13 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > I think Outback is the only major inverter manufacturer that can do split phase 120/240 to that size. You have to go 3 phase for 36 kW continuous capacity with either Schneider or SMA. > > Good luck, sounds like a fun system to design. > >> On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 2:50 PM Lou Russo wrote: >> Blue Ion 2.0 with Outback or SMA. Works every time. >> Blue Planet's tech support is great, the warranty is even better. >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> >> >>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 10:36 AM Jay wrote: >>> Hi Marco, >>> >>> Is the max surge 7kw, which is what is listed on line? >>> >>> Jay >>> Peltz Power >>> >>>> On Jul 19, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: >>>> >>>> Seven to eight Tesla Powerwalls will get you that assuming that the service entrance is no bigger than 200A. >>>> >>>> marco >>>> >>>>> On Friday, July 19, 2019, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>> What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh range? Preferably Lithium. >>>>> >>>>> Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of 36kW, 120/240V? >>>>> >>>>> This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of things. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Sun Jul 21 06:05:52 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 06:05:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System In-Reply-To: References: <0F844E3C-9662-4583-B49A-E166AC50AB26@gmail.com> Message-ID: <83775D3E-4DD6-4A10-B60D-A7122BD5C091@swnl.net> Victron has the Quattro 10kW inverters w/ 100A pass thru and they have a good battery management for their Li battery line. They have also started to have their products UL listed. GOOD robust product and good support. Allen formerly of Magnum is cc ed here. Up to 6 Quattro units can operate in parallel. Six units 48/10000/140, for example, will provide 48kW / 60kVA output power and 840 Amps charging capacity. > On Jul 20, 2019, at 5:13 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > I think Outback is the only major inverter manufacturer that can do split phase 120/240 to that size. You have to go 3 phase for 36 kW continuous capacity with either Schneider or SMA. > > Good luck, sounds like a fun system to design. > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 2:50 PM Lou Russo > wrote: > Blue Ion 2.0 with Outback or SMA. Works every time. > Blue Planet's tech support is great, the warranty is even better. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 10:36 AM Jay > wrote: > Hi Marco, > > Is the max surge 7kw, which is what is listed on line? > > Jay > Peltz Power > > On Jul 19, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > >> Seven to eight Tesla Powerwalls will get you that assuming that the service entrance is no bigger than 200A. >> >> marco >> >> On Friday, July 19, 2019, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: >> What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh range? Preferably Lithium. >> >> Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of 36kW, 120/240V? >> >> This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of things. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Sun Jul 21 16:18:28 2019 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 16:18:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dead Outback mx60 Message-ID: <33E95C33-7E8A-421D-89B0-AC9B08E053AD@gmail.com> I’m a customer about three hours away with what I believe is a dead MX 60 about 10 years old He recently changed his own battery pack and I’m guessing that he did not shut off the breakers to the MX 60 when he disconnected the old pack He says the screen is dead and it’s not charging and from conversation with him I believe him. We’ve done cold resets and all the normal stuff so far. Never had to get one of these repaired before, I understand outback doesn’t work on the older stuff Is there somebody else that repairs these available ? Thanks Bob Ellison From reellison at gmail.com Sun Jul 21 16:19:47 2019 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 16:19:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dead Outback mx60 In-Reply-To: <33E95C33-7E8A-421D-89B0-AC9B08E053AD@gmail.com> References: <33E95C33-7E8A-421D-89B0-AC9B08E053AD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8963F32E-1112-4825-9519-7E1C69CC20E5@gmail.com> That originally said “I have a customer” I hate auto correct and spell check Bob > On Jul 21, 2019, at 4:18 PM, RE Ellison wrote: > > I’m a customer about three hours away with what I believe is a dead MX 60 about 10 years old > He recently changed his own battery pack and I’m guessing that he did not shut off the breakers to the MX 60 when he disconnected the old pack > He says the screen is dead and it’s not charging and from conversation with him I believe him. > We’ve done cold resets and all the normal stuff so far. > > Never had to get one of these repaired before, I understand outback doesn’t work on the older stuff > > Is there somebody else that repairs these available ? > > Thanks > Bob Ellison From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jul 21 19:15:19 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 16:15:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System In-Reply-To: <83775D3E-4DD6-4A10-B60D-A7122BD5C091@swnl.net> References: <0F844E3C-9662-4583-B49A-E166AC50AB26@gmail.com> <83775D3E-4DD6-4A10-B60D-A7122BD5C091@swnl.net> Message-ID: <98E7E426-5930-426A-81DC-052B675E3B08@gmail.com> I was just reminded that exeltech can do up to 125kw. Jay > On Jul 21, 2019, at 3:05 AM, Tump wrote: > > Victron has the Quattro 10kW inverters w/ 100A pass thru and they have a good battery management for their Li battery line. They have also started to have their products UL listed. GOOD robust product and good support. Allen formerly of Magnum is cc ed here. > Up to 6 Quattro units can operate in parallel. Six units 48/10000/140, for example, will provide 48kW / 60kVA output power and 840 Amps charging capacity. > >> On Jul 20, 2019, at 5:13 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> >> I think Outback is the only major inverter manufacturer that can do split phase 120/240 to that size. You have to go 3 phase for 36 kW continuous capacity with either Schneider or SMA. >> >> Good luck, sounds like a fun system to design. >> >>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 2:50 PM Lou Russo wrote: >>> Blue Ion 2.0 with Outback or SMA. Works every time. >>> Blue Planet's tech support is great, the warranty is even better. >>> >>> Aloha, >>> >>> Lou Russo >>> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >>> 808 345 6762 >>> Spree Solar Systems LLC >>> CT-34322 >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 10:36 AM Jay wrote: >>>> Hi Marco, >>>> >>>> Is the max surge 7kw, which is what is listed on line? >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> Peltz Power >>>> >>>>> On Jul 19, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Seven to eight Tesla Powerwalls will get you that assuming that the service entrance is no bigger than 200A. >>>>> >>>>> marco >>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, July 19, 2019, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>> What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh range? Preferably Lithium. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of 36kW, 120/240V? >>>>>> >>>>>> This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of things. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >> Blair "TUMP" May >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jul 22 07:29:52 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:29:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ combiner for M series microinverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm surprised I did not get more of a response on this thread. Is anyone else adding onto M series microinverter systems? I'm starting to get a lot of requests to add more panels to older microinverter systems. Using the IQ combiner seems to make a lot of sense. The existing M series Envoy can just be plugged in nearby. I really like this approach but I don't want to run into a situation where I find out does not allow for this. On Thu, Jun 6, 2019, 2:34 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Yes, correct. The M Series Envoy would be plugged in elsewhere, close to > the IQ Combiner. > > The situation is that a customer already has a combo system installed by > some clown with all wrong wire sizes, OCPD, disconnects, and > interconnection on the load side of a whole house generator. It's a mess > and I'm starting over. I literally had to remove ALL of the panels and > mounts for a re-roof because it was done so poorly and the roof is leaking > now. Anyway, the cleanest way to combine all the circuits is to bring all 4 > circuits in one conduit into an IQ Combiner and just use that combine into > one supply-side connection with a fusible disconnect. The M Series neutrals > can just pass through the IQ Combiner (plus one for the IQ Envoy). It would > supply the required OCPD protection. I guess my main concern is whether > this device is listed for use only as an IQ system combiner only or if the > individual components are listed, which would allow this setup for sure I > would imagine. > > Jason > > > > > On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 11:54 AM Chad Waits > wrote: > >> Only thing I see is you will have to have 2 Envoys. The IQ inverters send >> the data on the powered conductors, not on the neutral like the M250’s. >> >> Chad Waits >> President/Owner – Net Zero Solar >> 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 >> Office: 520-207-4053 >> Cell: 520-270-4873 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches on behalf >> of Jason Szumlanski >> Reply-To: RE-wrenches >> Date: Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 8:42 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ combiner for M series microinverters >> >> Does anyone see anything wrong with using an Enphase IQ combiner to >> combine two strings of IQ microinverters with two strings of M250 >> microinverters? I would not use the production CT (just use microinverter >> production data). >> >> I can't see any technical reason this can't be done. Do any listing or >> code reasons come to mind? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood >> Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >> listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or >> update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Transparent-Logo Signature[1][4].png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Jul 22 10:26:07 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2 stacked Schneider SWs run 53 Locked Rotor Amps Septic Macerator? Message-ID: <49bc2f5c-ea58-bf14-70ab-639a4a338657@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey Esteemed Wrenches, So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider SW for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is only rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping kick - probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. The SW has the following surge capability: SW 4048 Rated@ 240 Volts: Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? Thanks! Jeff -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Jul 22 11:54:14 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:54:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2 stacked Schneider SWs run 53 Locked Rotor Amps Septic Macerator? In-Reply-To: <49bc2f5c-ea58-bf14-70ab-639a4a338657@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <49bc2f5c-ea58-bf14-70ab-639a4a338657@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: About 3 years ago i installed a single Magnum 4024 on a 1.5 Hp hydrolic pump, the DC surge was 275 amps, i was impressed, as far as i know the system is still functioning today. It is used only a few times a month. I measured with peak hold on Greenly clamp amp meter. On Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 9:26 AM Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Hey Esteemed Wrenches, > > So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider SW > for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. > > But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is only > rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping kick - > probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. > > The SW has the following surge capability: > > SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts: > Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts > 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts > 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts > Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts > > Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? > > Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jul 22 12:53:45 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:53:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2 stacked Schneider SWs run 53 Locked Rotor Amps Septic Macerator? In-Reply-To: <49bc2f5c-ea58-bf14-70ab-639a4a338657@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <49bc2f5c-ea58-bf14-70ab-639a4a338657@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <778f4c66-0980-d3a8-e646-b8ceef9d4e5b@solarray.com> I have a macerator in my basement, I just measured it, and I was hitting roughly 1100 watts peak for 1 sec.  I don't know what the Hp rating is, but its 120 vac, so I'm guessing 1/2 Hp.   Do they have to have 2 Hp?  That seems over kill. The one we have does a great job on a toilet, shower, and 2 sinks. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/22/19 8:26 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Hey Esteemed Wrenches, > > So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) > Schneider SW for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. > > But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is only > rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping kick - > probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. > > The SW has the following surge capability: > > SW 4048 Rated@ 240 Volts: > Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts > 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts > 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts > Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts > > Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? > > Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Mon Jul 22 15:00:16 2019 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 19:00:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dead Outback mx60 In-Reply-To: <8963F32E-1112-4825-9519-7E1C69CC20E5@gmail.com> References: <33E95C33-7E8A-421D-89B0-AC9B08E053AD@gmail.com>, <8963F32E-1112-4825-9519-7E1C69CC20E5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Bob, Try Craig Wilburn at craig at phantompowerservices.com He rebuilt some boards for a SW4048 and may know the ins and outs of the MX 60. Best regards, Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of RE Ellison Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 4:19:47 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dead Outback mx60 That originally said “I have a customer” I hate auto correct and spell check Bob > On Jul 21, 2019, at 4:18 PM, RE Ellison wrote: > > I’m a customer about three hours away with what I believe is a dead MX 60 about 10 years old > He recently changed his own battery pack and I’m guessing that he did not shut off the breakers to the MX 60 when he disconnected the old pack > He says the screen is dead and it’s not charging and from conversation with him I believe him. > We’ve done cold resets and all the normal stuff so far. > > Never had to get one of these repaired before, I understand outback doesn’t work on the older stuff > > Is there somebody else that repairs these available ? > > Thanks > Bob Ellison _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jul 22 12:11:04 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 09:11:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?2_stacked_Schneider_SWs_run_53_Locked_Ro?= =?utf-8?q?tor_Amps_Septic_Macerator=3F?= In-Reply-To: <49bc2f5c-ea58-bf14-70ab-639a4a338657@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <49bc2f5c-ea58-bf14-70ab-639a4a338657@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <405087905f6db64e06e6d67beb2675d1@127.0.0.1> Hi Jeff, I am not going to guess if this will work, it should. I use XW's because they start anything I have come across. If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same firmware. There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their development. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Esteemed Wrenches, So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider SW for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is only rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping kick - probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. The SW has the following surge capability: SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts: Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? Thanks! Jeff -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jul 22 16:14:36 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 13:14:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Bonding battery systems Message-ID: Wrenches: Here is a question that has bothered me for some time: If one is using a GFD (ground fault detection) breaker on a PV feeder(s) to a battery inverter system, the state of the industry is to use a breaker with an extra 0.5 or 1 amp pole. This section of the breaker connects, or bonds the DC negative, or grounded conductor, to the grounding system. In order for the GFD breaker to work one needs to isolate the grounded bus bar (negative). If there is a ground fault the breaker opens and breaks the bond. This goes very much against my conceptualization of how a bonding system should work. The bond should never be broken, particularly when there is a fault in the system. When this breaker opens, either manually or by an overcurrent condition on any pole, the DC bond is removed for all portions of the DC system. There is a prominent personality in the industry that often presents academic opinions on solar related electrical issues in articles and in seminars. This person claimed to have invented this GFD system, but when pressed to comment on the concerns mentioned above, changed the subject. I believe ground fault protection is important. I just don’t believe the method the industry has offered is really effective in solving the issues presented in a ground fault scenario. I believe similar issues present on non-battery PV systems with the simple fuse in the ground system found on many inverters. I know some troubleshooting guides warn of energized parts in ground fault conditions. Have any of you thought about these concerns? Are my concerns valid? What are your policies on this subject? Thanks in advance for any insight. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Mon Jul 22 18:09:28 2019 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:09:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] expanding OutBack SkyBox Message-ID: <20190722150928.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.928bb73069.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jul 22 16:54:10 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 13:54:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Bonding battery systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can see your point but I know from direct experience that the GFCI in an XW system will trip during a close lightning strike. I have seen this along with a few clients. The XW system has a series of escalating faults that will shut down the inverter if the strike is close. To me it is worth it to have an unattended system shut down to protect itself. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 13:14:36 -0700, William Miller wrote: Wrenches: Here is a question that has bothered me for some time: If one is using a GFD (ground fault detection) breaker on a PV feeder(s) to a battery inverter system, the state of the industry is to use a breaker with an extra 0.5 or 1 amp pole. This section of the breaker connects, or bonds the DC negative, or grounded conductor, to the grounding system. In order for the GFD breaker to work one needs to isolate the grounded bus bar (negative). If there is a ground fault the breaker opens and breaks the bond. This goes very much against my conceptualization of how a bonding system should work. The bond should never be broken, particularly when there is a fault in the system. When this breaker opens, either manually or by an overcurrent condition on any pole, the DC bond is removed for all portions of the DC system. There is a prominent personality in the industry that often presents academic opinions on solar related electrical issues in articles and in seminars. This person claimed to have invented this GFD system, but when pressed to comment on the concerns mentioned above, changed the subject. I believe ground fault protection is important. I just don't believe the method the industry has offered is really effective in solving the issues presented in a ground fault scenario. I believe similar issues present on non-battery PV systems with the simple fuse in the ground system found on many inverters. I know some troubleshooting guides warn of energized parts in ground fault conditions. Have any of you thought about these concerns? Are my concerns valid? What are your policies on this subject? Thanks in advance for any insight. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com [3] CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the month: "As they age, batteries transition from energy storage devices to energy consuming devices." W. Miller -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.millersolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 00:17:52 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 23:17:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Bonding battery systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bill, I have thought about it also. The ground fault detection interruption system does elevate one of the conductors to voltage. This makes it hazardous. However, it also protects from a PV hot to ground arc fault. There are three types of arc faults in PV systems, the ground fault arc, the series arc fault, and the parallel arc fault. It is the parallel arc that was addressed in the 2017 NEC via module-level shutdown. The intent of 690.11 can not be addressed without 2017 690.12.b(2) where the detection of an arc must shutdown the array currents. On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 3:42 PM William Miller wrote: > Wrenches: > > > > Here is a question that has bothered me for some time: If one is using a > GFD (ground fault detection) breaker on a PV feeder(s) to a battery > inverter system, the state of the industry is to use a breaker with an > extra 0.5 or 1 amp pole. This section of the breaker connects, or bonds > the DC negative, or grounded conductor, to the grounding system. > > > > In order for the GFD breaker to work one needs to isolate the grounded bus > bar (negative). If there is a ground fault the breaker opens and breaks > the bond. > > > > This goes very much against my conceptualization of how a bonding system > should work. The bond should never be broken, particularly when there is a > fault in the system. When this breaker opens, either manually or by an > overcurrent condition on any pole, the DC bond is removed for all portions > of the DC system. > > > > There is a prominent personality in the industry that often presents > academic opinions on solar related electrical issues in articles and in > seminars. This person claimed to have invented this GFD system, but when > pressed to comment on the concerns mentioned above, changed the subject. > > > > I believe ground fault protection is important. I just don’t believe the > method the industry has offered is really effective in solving the issues > presented in a ground fault scenario. > > > > I believe similar issues present on non-battery PV systems with the simple > fuse in the ground system found on many inverters. I know some > troubleshooting guides warn of energized parts in ground fault conditions. > > > > Have any of you thought about these concerns? Are my concerns valid? > What are your policies on this subject? > > > > Thanks in advance for any insight. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy > > storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue Jul 23 05:47:01 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:47:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dead Outback mx60 In-Reply-To: References: <33E95C33-7E8A-421D-89B0-AC9B08E053AD@gmail.com> <8963F32E-1112-4825-9519-7E1C69CC20E5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Kris Stone 425-233-0731 worked at Ob and now doing repairs on those older units. > On Jul 22, 2019, at 3:00 PM, Lloyd Hoffstatter wrote: > > Bob, > > Try Craig Wilburn at craig at phantompowerservices.com > > He rebuilt some boards for a SW4048 and may know the ins and outs of the MX 60. > > Best regards, > Lloyd Hoffstatter > Sunstruck Consulting > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of RE Ellison > > Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 4:19:47 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dead Outback mx60 > > That originally said “I have a customer” I hate auto correct and spell check > > Bob > > > On Jul 21, 2019, at 4:18 PM, RE Ellison > wrote: > > > > I’m a customer about three hours away with what I believe is a dead MX 60 about 10 years old > > He recently changed his own battery pack and I’m guessing that he did not shut off the breakers to the MX 60 when he disconnected the old pack > > He says the screen is dead and it’s not charging and from conversation with him I believe him. > > We’ve done cold resets and all the normal stuff so far. > > > > Never had to get one of these repaired before, I understand outback doesn’t work on the older stuff > > > > Is there somebody else that repairs these available ? > > > > Thanks > > Bob Ellison > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evolvedsolar at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 09:38:03 2019 From: evolvedsolar at gmail.com (Al Frishman) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:38:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] To Bond or Not to Bond the Neutral to Ground Message-ID: <63251222-60C6-4958-98D5-DC338F98D24B@gmail.com> Hey Wrenchers, I have been having a design debate with several associates regarding bonding the Neutral to the Ground for Line Side grid connections. In the fused solar AC Disconnect located closest to the Service Line Side grid connection should the Neutral be bonded to Ground? What Article in the NEC defines the requirement. As always your feedback is appreciated. Al Frishman EvolvedSolar (917) 699-6641 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Jul 23 11:38:42 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:38:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Bonding battery systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William - This article is a few years old, but I think describes ground fault detection issues well: http://www.solarabcs.org/about/publications/reports/blindspot/pdfs/inverter_groundfault-2013.pdf I don't have experience (at least since the late 90s) with the type of GFD breaker you describe on the DC-side PV circuit. We switched to AC coupled systems with standard grid tied inverters (transformerless non-isolated) years ago. What kind of setup are you referring to? Best, August Luminalt On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 1:42 PM William Miller wrote: > Wrenches: > > > > Here is a question that has bothered me for some time: If one is using a > GFD (ground fault detection) breaker on a PV feeder(s) to a battery > inverter system, the state of the industry is to use a breaker with an > extra 0.5 or 1 amp pole. This section of the breaker connects, or bonds > the DC negative, or grounded conductor, to the grounding system. > > > > In order for the GFD breaker to work one needs to isolate the grounded bus > bar (negative). If there is a ground fault the breaker opens and breaks > the bond. > > > > This goes very much against my conceptualization of how a bonding system > should work. The bond should never be broken, particularly when there is a > fault in the system. When this breaker opens, either manually or by an > overcurrent condition on any pole, the DC bond is removed for all portions > of the DC system. > > > > There is a prominent personality in the industry that often presents > academic opinions on solar related electrical issues in articles and in > seminars. This person claimed to have invented this GFD system, but when > pressed to comment on the concerns mentioned above, changed the subject. > > > > I believe ground fault protection is important. I just don’t believe the > method the industry has offered is really effective in solving the issues > presented in a ground fault scenario. > > > > I believe similar issues present on non-battery PV systems with the simple > fuse in the ground system found on many inverters. I know some > troubleshooting guides warn of energized parts in ground fault conditions. > > > > Have any of you thought about these concerns? Are my concerns valid? > What are your policies on this subject? > > > > Thanks in advance for any insight. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy > > storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Tue Jul 23 10:01:55 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:01:55 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Bonding battery systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches – I am no code expert, but wanted to chime in to this important discussion. Rapid shutdown (690.12) does not deal (directly) with arc faults at all. The initiation of rapid shutdown is generally a manual process that a first responder triggers to reduce shock hazard. The RS system is not required to monitor the system for any faults on the DC side. 690.11 (DC arc faults) requires a system to “detect and interrupt arcing faults resulting from a failure in the intended continuity of a conductor, connection, module or other system component”(2017) (by definition a series arc) – and note that this has nothing necessarily to do with a ground fault. A PV module connector that is being pulled apart and the current is arcing across the gap between pins is exactly what this is for – a very good chance that arcs create high enough temperature – even at low current – to start a fire. A ground fault does not need to generate an arc (though likely will). A ground fault is the unintentional electrical connection of a conductor to the grounding system. Removal of insulation of a conductor that is resting on a grounded piece of metallic racking will do. The conductor does not need to be physically compromised, just exposed. Back to the original thread point - I agree that the sudden change in voltage state of the conductors is not optimal, but the delta between DC pos and DC neg will not change. And the intent is that the GFDI fuse will blow when part of that conductive path has been referenced to ground (by the fault) out in the array anyway. So nominal voltage would not be measured out in the array when the ground fault system is needed, right before and after the fuse blows. The Bakersfield fire was the result of many faults occurring due to improper installation techniques, but led to the acknowledgement that the fuse grounding method presents a “blind spot” – the inability to detect a ground fault on the grounded conductor itself. That fault will not necessarily present a hazard (no change in voltage and thus current of the already grounded conductor) but it also will NOT trigger the ground fault detection system. Another fault occurring in the array then may have a return fault path for current that the GFDI fuse blowing cannot stop. Much better summary than I can give here: http://www.solarabcs.org/about/publications/reports/blindspot/ Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg][http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D45E26.3FF7F550] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 10:18 PM To: William Miller ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Bonding battery systems Hi Bill, I have thought about it also. The ground fault detection interruption system does elevate one of the conductors to voltage. This makes it hazardous. However, it also protects from a PV hot to ground arc fault. There are three types of arc faults in PV systems, the ground fault arc, the series arc fault, and the parallel arc fault. It is the parallel arc that was addressed in the 2017 NEC via module-level shutdown. The intent of 690.11 can not be addressed without 2017 690.12.b(2) where the detection of an arc must shutdown the array currents. On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 3:42 PM William Miller > wrote: Wrenches: Here is a question that has bothered me for some time: If one is using a GFD (ground fault detection) breaker on a PV feeder(s) to a battery inverter system, the state of the industry is to use a breaker with an extra 0.5 or 1 amp pole. This section of the breaker connects, or bonds the DC negative, or grounded conductor, to the grounding system. In order for the GFD breaker to work one needs to isolate the grounded bus bar (negative). If there is a ground fault the breaker opens and breaks the bond. This goes very much against my conceptualization of how a bonding system should work. The bond should never be broken, particularly when there is a fault in the system. When this breaker opens, either manually or by an overcurrent condition on any pole, the DC bond is removed for all portions of the DC system. There is a prominent personality in the industry that often presents academic opinions on solar related electrical issues in articles and in seminars. This person claimed to have invented this GFD system, but when pressed to comment on the concerns mentioned above, changed the subject. I believe ground fault protection is important. I just don’t believe the method the industry has offered is really effective in solving the issues presented in a ground fault scenario. I believe similar issues present on non-battery PV systems with the simple fuse in the ground system found on many inverters. I know some troubleshooting guides warn of energized parts in ground fault conditions. Have any of you thought about these concerns? Are my concerns valid? What are your policies on this subject? Thanks in advance for any insight. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19456 bytes Desc: image007.jpg URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Jul 23 14:04:54 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:04:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Bonding battery systems In-Reply-To: <490F8A26-EFFA-4617-A093-6404DDC820AA@millersolar.com> References: <490F8A26-EFFA-4617-A093-6404DDC820AA@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Hi William - Check out the Solarpro Magazine archive May/June 2017 issue page 34: it addresses "functional grounded PV systems." https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/d49ff9_ccc99efe7b344f6a945ca2e00f8a71d8.pdf And the definition found in 2017 NEC 690.2: [image: image.png] Yes, the normally grounded white conductor might be hot during a fault condition. Is it safe? Well, it's not that great of a setup but I think it's the lesser of all evils constrained by the relatively old school inverter technology. I'm a huge believer in the benefits in the new high voltage batteries such as the LG Chem product that can be wired up with #10s and have integrated safety features built in to the battery enclosure. Surely this must be the future. To answer your question, we do almost all grid tied systems up here in the San Francisco Bay Area. We've been installing the Tesla Powerwall 2 with about 50% of our PV systems - it's been a widely popular product. Historically, we installed a few Sunny Island AC coupled (and a few Outback and Schneider XW) systems annually. August Luminalt On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 10:22 AM William Miller wrote: > August: > > I read the referenced report. It does not address the concern I raised— > that is the breaker specified unbonds a system that I believe is supposed > to be bonded. > > William > > On Jul 23, 2019, at 8:38 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi William - > > This article is a few years old, but I think describes ground fault > detection issues well: > http://www.solarabcs.org/about/publications/reports/blindspot/pdfs/inverter_groundfault-2013.pdf > > > I don't have experience (at least since the late 90s) with the type of GFD > breaker you describe on the DC-side PV circuit. We switched to AC coupled > systems with standard grid tied inverters (transformerless non-isolated) > years ago. What kind of setup are you referring to? > > Best, > > August > > Luminalt > > > > On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 1:42 PM William Miller > wrote: > >> Wrenches: >> >> >> >> Here is a question that has bothered me for some time: If one is using a >> GFD (ground fault detection) breaker on a PV feeder(s) to a battery >> inverter system, the state of the industry is to use a breaker with an >> extra 0.5 or 1 amp pole. This section of the breaker connects, or bonds >> the DC negative, or grounded conductor, to the grounding system. >> >> >> >> In order for the GFD breaker to work one needs to isolate the grounded >> bus bar (negative). If there is a ground fault the breaker opens and >> breaks the bond. >> >> >> >> This goes very much against my conceptualization of how a bonding system >> should work. The bond should never be broken, particularly when there is a >> fault in the system. When this breaker opens, either manually or by an >> overcurrent condition on any pole, the DC bond is removed for all portions >> of the DC system. >> >> >> >> There is a prominent personality in the industry that often presents >> academic opinions on solar related electrical issues in articles and in >> seminars. This person claimed to have invented this GFD system, but when >> pressed to comment on the concerns mentioned above, changed the subject. >> >> >> >> I believe ground fault protection is important. I just don’t believe the >> method the industry has offered is really effective in solving the issues >> presented in a ground fault scenario. >> >> >> >> I believe similar issues present on non-battery PV systems with the >> simple fuse in the ground system found on many inverters. I know some >> troubleshooting guides warn of energized parts in ground fault conditions. >> >> >> >> Have any of you thought about these concerns? Are my concerns valid? >> What are your policies on this subject? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance for any insight. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy >> >> storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 29811 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Tue Jul 23 16:39:35 2019 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:39:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] To Bond or Not to Bond the Neutral to Ground In-Reply-To: <63251222-60C6-4958-98D5-DC338F98D24B@gmail.com> References: <63251222-60C6-4958-98D5-DC338F98D24B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Al, See 250.2: “Bonding Jumper, Supply-Side. A conductor installed on the supply side of a service or within a service equipment enclosure(s), or for a separately derived system, that ensures the required electrical conductivity between metal.” rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Jul 23, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Al Frishman wrote: > > Hey Wrenchers, > I have been having a design debate with several associates regarding bonding the Neutral to the Ground for Line Side grid connections. > > In the fused solar AC Disconnect located closest to the Service Line Side grid connection should the Neutral be bonded to Ground? What Article in the NEC defines the requirement. > > As always your feedback is appreciated. > > Al Frishman > EvolvedSolar > (917) 699-6641 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jul 23 13:22:07 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:22:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Bonding battery systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <490F8A26-EFFA-4617-A093-6404DDC820AA@millersolar.com> August: I read the referenced report. It does not address the concern I raised— that is the breaker specified unbonds a system that I believe is supposed to be bonded. William > On Jul 23, 2019, at 8:38 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi William - > > This article is a few years old, but I think describes ground fault detection issues well: http://www.solarabcs.org/about/publications/reports/blindspot/pdfs/inverter_groundfault-2013.pdf > > I don't have experience (at least since the late 90s) with the type of GFD breaker you describe on the DC-side PV circuit. We switched to AC coupled systems with standard grid tied inverters (transformerless non-isolated) years ago. What kind of setup are you referring to? > > Best, > > August > > Luminalt > > > >> On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 1:42 PM William Miller wrote: >> Wrenches: >> >> >> >> Here is a question that has bothered me for some time: If one is using a GFD (ground fault detection) breaker on a PV feeder(s) to a battery inverter system, the state of the industry is to use a breaker with an extra 0.5 or 1 amp pole. This section of the breaker connects, or bonds the DC negative, or grounded conductor, to the grounding system. >> >> >> >> In order for the GFD breaker to work one needs to isolate the grounded bus bar (negative). If there is a ground fault the breaker opens and breaks the bond. >> >> >> >> This goes very much against my conceptualization of how a bonding system should work. The bond should never be broken, particularly when there is a fault in the system. When this breaker opens, either manually or by an overcurrent condition on any pole, the DC bond is removed for all portions of the DC system. >> >> >> >> There is a prominent personality in the industry that often presents academic opinions on solar related electrical issues in articles and in seminars. This person claimed to have invented this GFD system, but when pressed to comment on the concerns mentioned above, changed the subject. >> >> >> >> I believe ground fault protection is important. I just don’t believe the method the industry has offered is really effective in solving the issues presented in a ground fault scenario. >> >> >> >> I believe similar issues present on non-battery PV systems with the simple fuse in the ground system found on many inverters. I know some troubleshooting guides warn of energized parts in ground fault conditions. >> >> >> >> Have any of you thought about these concerns? Are my concerns valid? What are your policies on this subject? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance for any insight. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy >> >> storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jul 23 18:08:49 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:08:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System and ciculating currents Message-ID: Friends: I am a complete newbie to any lithium technologies, so please forgive some newbie questions: I am used to working in amp hours. If we are looking for a battery bank in the range of 100 kWh, this converts to about 2,083 amp/hours at 48 VDC. Is my arithmetic correct? An on-line calculator seems to confirm this. The biggest Blue Ion 2 battery is 16 kwh. At 48 VDC this is about 333 amp/hours. This is like an L16. To get 100 kwh you would need to parallel 6 strings of the 16 kWh batteries. I would never do this with L-16s. Is anyone worried about circulating currents in this type of installation? Is there technology to prevent one string from cannibalizing another? Here is another, more academic question below: In case I am using a term I made up (which is often the case), I define circulating currents as currents flowing between parallel strings without any outside influence. For example, if you disconnected all charging and loads from an array with two parallel strings, unless the strings were absolutely identical in electrical characteristics, there would be some current flowing between the two strings. In my opinion this is the Achilles heel in parallel strings. Also my opinions: 2. The more strings you have the more chance there will be debilitating circulating currents. 3. The older the batteries, the more the electrical characteristics will vary and the more likely you will get higher circulating currents. It is my theory that if you can measure the circulating currents, or the difference between parallel battery strings at any point in the operation of same, you can get a read on the health of the strings. The more the operating or idle currents diverge, the more one string will discharge the other string. I guess this is some part of a battery management system. I am guessing for the Blue Ion 2 to work in 6 parallel strings, they need to monitor and control this difference in currents. We just installed a flooded battery array (2 strings of 4 Deka M6100-33 batteries). My plan is to retrofit the installation with a 1000A/100mv shunt in the negative leads of both strings. With a DVM I can spot check the circulating currents to learn about the battery health. In fact I have a remote monitoring system with some spare ports that can log these values. Might be an interesting experiment. I appreciate any input on the viability of the Blue Ion 2 or other small battery systems in multi-string installations. My customers are asking for new technology, but I instinctively avoid parallel battery strings. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Lou Russo *Sent:* Saturday, July 20, 2019 1:50 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System Blue Ion 2.0 with Outback or SMA. Works every time. Blue Planet's tech support is great, the warranty is even better. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 10:36 AM Jay wrote: Hi Marco, Is the max surge 7kw, which is what is listed on line? Jay Peltz Power On Jul 19, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: Seven to eight Tesla Powerwalls will get you that assuming that the service entrance is no bigger than 200A. marco On Friday, July 19, 2019, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh range? Preferably Lithium. Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of 36kW, 120/240V? This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of things. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 20:59:01 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:59:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System and ciculating currents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William I have a few blue ion installs that was used for testing. I used eguage to monitor all DC in and out of each stack of 16k with no issues. The BMU manages everything and can be chained to each other to reduce or even prevent that issue. I have seen Blue Ions original stacks greater then 100k with years in the field, so with that cross bleed should be not a problem. Jerry On Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:59 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am a complete newbie to any lithium technologies, so please forgive some > newbie questions: > > > > I am used to working in amp hours. If we are looking for a battery bank > in the range of 100 kWh, this converts to about 2,083 amp/hours at 48 VDC. > Is my arithmetic correct? An on-line calculator seems to confirm this. > > > > The biggest Blue Ion 2 battery is 16 kwh. At 48 VDC this is about 333 > amp/hours. This is like an L16. To get 100 kwh you would need to parallel > 6 strings of the 16 kWh batteries. I would never do this with L-16s. Is > anyone worried about circulating currents in this type of installation? Is > there technology to prevent one string from cannibalizing another? > > > > Here is another, more academic question below: > > > > In case I am using a term I made up (which is often the case), I define > circulating currents as currents flowing between parallel strings without > any outside influence. For example, if you disconnected all charging and > loads from an array with two parallel strings, unless the strings were > absolutely identical in electrical characteristics, there would be some > current flowing between the two strings. In my opinion this is the > Achilles heel in parallel strings. Also my opinions: 2. The more strings > you have the more chance there will be debilitating circulating currents. > 3. The older the batteries, the more the electrical characteristics will > vary and the more likely you will get higher circulating currents. > > > > It is my theory that if you can measure the circulating currents, or the > difference between parallel battery strings at any point in the operation > of same, you can get a read on the health of the strings. The more the > operating or idle currents diverge, the more one string will discharge the > other string. I guess this is some part of a battery management system. I > am guessing for the Blue Ion 2 to work in 6 parallel strings, they need to > monitor and control this difference in currents. > > > > We just installed a flooded battery array (2 strings of 4 Deka M6100-33 > batteries). My plan is to retrofit the installation with a 1000A/100mv > shunt in the negative leads of both strings. With a DVM I can spot check > the circulating currents to learn about the battery health. In fact I have > a remote monitoring system > > with some spare ports that can log these values. Might be an interesting > experiment. > > > > I appreciate any input on the viability of the Blue Ion 2 or other small > battery systems in multi-string installations. My customers are asking for > new technology, but I instinctively avoid parallel battery strings. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy > > storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Lou Russo > *Sent:* Saturday, July 20, 2019 1:50 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System > > > > Blue Ion 2.0 with Outback or SMA. Works every time. > > Blue Planet's tech support is great, the warranty is even better. > > > > Aloha, > > > > Lou Russo > > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > > 808 345 6762 > > Spree Solar Systems LLC > > CT-34322 > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 10:36 AM Jay wrote: > > Hi Marco, > > > > Is the max surge 7kw, which is what is listed on line? > > > > Jay > > Peltz Power > > > On Jul 19, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > > Seven to eight Tesla Powerwalls will get you that assuming that the > service entrance is no bigger than 200A. > > > > marco > > On Friday, July 19, 2019, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh > range? Preferably Lithium. > > > > Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of > 36kW, 120/240V? > > > > This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with > recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of > things. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Tue Jul 23 23:26:31 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 20:26:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2 stacked Schneider SWs run 53 Locked Rotor Amps Septic Macerator? In-Reply-To: <778f4c66-0980-d3a8-e646-b8ceef9d4e5b@solarray.com> References: <49bc2f5c-ea58-bf14-70ab-639a4a338657@villagepowerdesign.com> <778f4c66-0980-d3a8-e646-b8ceef9d4e5b@solarray.com> Message-ID: Thanks Ray for the data comparison - yes unfortunately they are on a high hill and need to 2 HP - it's a monster! Ray wrote on 7/22/19 9:53 AM: > I have a macerator in my basement, I just measured it, and I was > hitting roughly 1100 watts peak for 1 sec.  I don't know what the Hp > rating is, but its 120 vac, so I'm guessing 1/2 Hp.   Do they have to > have 2 Hp?  That seems over kill. The one we have does a great job on > a toilet, shower, and 2 sinks. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 7/22/19 8:26 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >> Hey Esteemed Wrenches, >> >> So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) >> Schneider SW for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. >> >> But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is >> only rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping >> kick - probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. >> >> The SW has the following surge capability: >> >> SW 4048 Rated@ 240 Volts: >> Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts >> 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts >> 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts >> Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts >> >> Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? >> >> Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Tue Jul 23 23:27:32 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 20:27:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2 stacked Schneider SWs run 53 Locked Rotor Amps Septic Macerator? In-Reply-To: <405087905f6db64e06e6d67beb2675d1@127.0.0.1> References: <49bc2f5c-ea58-bf14-70ab-639a4a338657@villagepowerdesign.com> <405087905f6db64e06e6d67beb2675d1@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <98e033f1-d95b-e47c-57f1-64c6696a9309@villagepowerdesign.com> Thanks for the tip! I'll check the firmware. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: > Hi Jeff, > > I am not going to guess if this will work, it should.  I use XW's > because they start anything I have come across. > > If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same firmware. > There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their development. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > >> Hey Esteemed Wrenches, >> >> So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) >> Schneider SW for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. >> >> But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is >> only rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping >> kick - probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. >> >> The SW has the following surge capability: >> >> SW 4048 Rated@ 240 Volts: >> Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts >> 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts >> 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts >> Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts >> >> Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? >> >> Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Jeff >> > -- > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Jul 24 09:21:55 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:21:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System and ciculating currents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William - Yea, your kWh calculation is correct. However, the 16 kWh Blue Ion is comparable to eight L16 (6 volt x 333 Ah each) batteries, not one - nameplate rating. Typically you can go way deeper discharge with the lithium products, so the Blue Ion might be more comparable to sixteen (or even more) L16 batteries in the real world. I can't speak to the parallel battery issue you raise with Blue Ion or other similar batteries such as Discover - it would seem like their engineering team could help with that. August Luminalt On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 4:59 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am a complete newbie to any lithium technologies, so please forgive some > newbie questions: > > > > I am used to working in amp hours. If we are looking for a battery bank > in the range of 100 kWh, this converts to about 2,083 amp/hours at 48 VDC. > Is my arithmetic correct? An on-line calculator seems to confirm this. > > > > The biggest Blue Ion 2 battery is 16 kwh. At 48 VDC this is about 333 > amp/hours. This is like an L16. To get 100 kwh you would need to parallel > 6 strings of the 16 kWh batteries. I would never do this with L-16s. Is > anyone worried about circulating currents in this type of installation? Is > there technology to prevent one string from cannibalizing another? > > > > Here is another, more academic question below: > > > > In case I am using a term I made up (which is often the case), I define > circulating currents as currents flowing between parallel strings without > any outside influence. For example, if you disconnected all charging and > loads from an array with two parallel strings, unless the strings were > absolutely identical in electrical characteristics, there would be some > current flowing between the two strings. In my opinion this is the > Achilles heel in parallel strings. Also my opinions: 2. The more strings > you have the more chance there will be debilitating circulating currents. > 3. The older the batteries, the more the electrical characteristics will > vary and the more likely you will get higher circulating currents. > > > > It is my theory that if you can measure the circulating currents, or the > difference between parallel battery strings at any point in the operation > of same, you can get a read on the health of the strings. The more the > operating or idle currents diverge, the more one string will discharge the > other string. I guess this is some part of a battery management system. I > am guessing for the Blue Ion 2 to work in 6 parallel strings, they need to > monitor and control this difference in currents. > > > > We just installed a flooded battery array (2 strings of 4 Deka M6100-33 > batteries). My plan is to retrofit the installation with a 1000A/100mv > shunt in the negative leads of both strings. With a DVM I can spot check > the circulating currents to learn about the battery health. In fact I have > a remote monitoring system > > with some spare ports that can log these values. Might be an interesting > experiment. > > > > I appreciate any input on the viability of the Blue Ion 2 or other small > battery systems in multi-string installations. My customers are asking for > new technology, but I instinctively avoid parallel battery strings. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy > > storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Lou Russo > *Sent:* Saturday, July 20, 2019 1:50 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System > > > > Blue Ion 2.0 with Outback or SMA. Works every time. > > Blue Planet's tech support is great, the warranty is even better. > > > > Aloha, > > > > Lou Russo > > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > > 808 345 6762 > > Spree Solar Systems LLC > > CT-34322 > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 10:36 AM Jay wrote: > > Hi Marco, > > > > Is the max surge 7kw, which is what is listed on line? > > > > Jay > > Peltz Power > > > On Jul 19, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > > Seven to eight Tesla Powerwalls will get you that assuming that the > service entrance is no bigger than 200A. > > > > marco > > On Friday, July 19, 2019, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh > range? Preferably Lithium. > > > > Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of > 36kW, 120/240V? > > > > This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with > recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of > things. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Wed Jul 24 09:34:33 2019 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:34:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System and ciculating currents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William, August is right, the Blue Ion batteries are rated for 100% DOD so to get the same usable capacity from an L16 at 50% DOD you'd need twice the overall capacity. Plus most lithium-ion batteries will last significantly longer than lead-acid so you have to factor in replacement costs when doing a life cycle cost comparison. All reputable lithium-ion batteries will come with a battery management system (Blue Ion calls theirs a battery management unit) that controls charging and discharging of the cells to ensure even charging. That's why you can run many more in parallel because the BMS will make sure the cells are evenly charged. The only limit to units in parallel with lithium-ion is the manufacturers maximum. You still need to make sure the parallel cables are the same length. With most lithium-ion batteries you need to order the battery at the nominal voltage of the system. For example, if you have a 48 V system you need a 48 V battery, you can't (usually) use two 24 V batteries in series with lithium-ion. Thanks, Will -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 9:22 AM August Goers wrote: > Hi William - Yea, your kWh calculation is correct. However, the 16 kWh > Blue Ion is comparable to eight L16 (6 volt x 333 Ah each) batteries, not > one - nameplate rating. Typically you can go way deeper discharge with the > lithium products, so the Blue Ion might be more comparable to sixteen (or > even more) L16 batteries in the real world. > > I can't speak to the parallel battery issue you raise with Blue Ion or > other similar batteries such as Discover - it would seem like their > engineering team could help with that. > > August > > Luminalt > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 4:59 PM William Miller > wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I am a complete newbie to any lithium technologies, so please forgive >> some newbie questions: >> >> >> >> I am used to working in amp hours. If we are looking for a battery bank >> in the range of 100 kWh, this converts to about 2,083 amp/hours at 48 VDC. >> Is my arithmetic correct? An on-line calculator seems to confirm this. >> >> >> >> The biggest Blue Ion 2 battery is 16 kwh. At 48 VDC this is about 333 >> amp/hours. This is like an L16. To get 100 kwh you would need to parallel >> 6 strings of the 16 kWh batteries. I would never do this with L-16s. Is >> anyone worried about circulating currents in this type of installation? Is >> there technology to prevent one string from cannibalizing another? >> >> >> >> Here is another, more academic question below: >> >> >> >> In case I am using a term I made up (which is often the case), I define >> circulating currents as currents flowing between parallel strings without >> any outside influence. For example, if you disconnected all charging and >> loads from an array with two parallel strings, unless the strings were >> absolutely identical in electrical characteristics, there would be some >> current flowing between the two strings. In my opinion this is the >> Achilles heel in parallel strings. Also my opinions: 2. The more strings >> you have the more chance there will be debilitating circulating currents. >> 3. The older the batteries, the more the electrical characteristics will >> vary and the more likely you will get higher circulating currents. >> >> >> >> It is my theory that if you can measure the circulating currents, or the >> difference between parallel battery strings at any point in the operation >> of same, you can get a read on the health of the strings. The more the >> operating or idle currents diverge, the more one string will discharge the >> other string. I guess this is some part of a battery management system. I >> am guessing for the Blue Ion 2 to work in 6 parallel strings, they need to >> monitor and control this difference in currents. >> >> >> >> We just installed a flooded battery array (2 strings of 4 Deka M6100-33 >> batteries). My plan is to retrofit the installation with a 1000A/100mv >> shunt in the negative leads of both strings. With a DVM I can spot check >> the circulating currents to learn about the battery health. In fact I have >> a remote monitoring system >> >> with some spare ports that can log these values. Might be an interesting >> experiment. >> >> >> >> I appreciate any input on the viability of the Blue Ion 2 or other small >> battery systems in multi-string installations. My customers are asking for >> new technology, but I instinctively avoid parallel battery strings. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy >> >> storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Lou Russo >> *Sent:* Saturday, July 20, 2019 1:50 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System >> >> >> >> Blue Ion 2.0 with Outback or SMA. Works every time. >> >> Blue Planet's tech support is great, the warranty is even better. >> >> >> >> Aloha, >> >> >> >> Lou Russo >> >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> >> 808 345 6762 >> >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> >> CT-34322 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 10:36 AM Jay wrote: >> >> Hi Marco, >> >> >> >> Is the max surge 7kw, which is what is listed on line? >> >> >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz Power >> >> >> On Jul 19, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf >> wrote: >> >> Seven to eight Tesla Powerwalls will get you that assuming that the >> service entrance is no bigger than 200A. >> >> >> >> marco >> >> On Friday, July 19, 2019, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh >> range? Preferably Lithium. >> >> >> >> Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of >> 36kW, 120/240V? >> >> >> >> This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with >> recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of >> things. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Jul 24 10:37:12 2019 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:37:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge reliability declining...??? Message-ID: <038301d5422d$494e7de0$dbeb79a0$@solarcentex.com> Have any of you seen significant declines in SolarEdge inverter reliability? We are having more inverter failures that at any time in the past five years of installing SolarEdge. Lots of Code 181 hardware failures mostly in the latest SetApp inverters (the ones without displays.) To compound matters, the RMA process is getting way too long and we are waiting appx 3 weeks on average to receive a replacement. Customers definitely not happy. What are you all seeing? Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com www.solarcentex.com https://www.facebook.com/SolarCentex -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 48500 bytes Desc: not available URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Wed Jul 24 12:14:12 2019 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:14:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge reliability declining...??? In-Reply-To: <038301d5422d$494e7de0$dbeb79a0$@solarcentex.com> References: <038301d5422d$494e7de0$dbeb79a0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <056001d5423a$d5a78680$80f69380$@greenwired.com> Hey Howard, We have started to notice this as well, we recently got 2 DOA inverters(new setapps) in a row for the same client.They were not happy either. I have also noticed their tech support has also gotten worse with huge wait times or call backs days later. I really enjoy their equipment but it's a bummer that their quality has gone done hill. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howard Arey Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 7:37 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge reliability declining...??? Have any of you seen significant declines in SolarEdge inverter reliability? We are having more inverter failures that at any time in the past five years of installing SolarEdge. Lots of Code 181 hardware failures mostly in the latest SetApp inverters (the ones without displays.) To compound matters, the RMA process is getting way too long and we are waiting appx 3 weeks on average to receive a replacement. Customers definitely not happy. What are you all seeing? Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com www.solarcentex.com https://www.facebook.com/SolarCentex Solar Centex Logo - No Back -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 17801 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jul 24 12:37:05 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:37:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System and ciculating currents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William, I think you are smart to taking your time going to Lithium Ion. I will let others work the math as each application/client is really different. I have a few clients offgrid who are early adopters and there have been a few failures I have observed. For grid based Apps I really do not concern myself because the grid is there for back-up. I will just say the LFP battery management system is a new set of ways to lose power offgrid. I am backing up my clients and have always done that at my offgrid home. Here is a link to the testing I have been watching since I started testing advanced battery technology in the field for Schneider in 2016. A 61% failure rate is not good news to me. Blue Ion And Discover is not in the testing and the Muarta battery they use is doing very well. https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/6th-canberra-battery-test/ [1] Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [3] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:08:49 -0700, William Miller wrote: Friends: I am a complete newbie to any lithium technologies, so please forgive some newbie questions: I am used to working in amp hours. If we are looking for a battery bank in the range of 100 kWh, this converts to about 2,083 amp/hours at 48 VDC. Is my arithmetic correct? An on-line calculator seems to confirm this. The biggest Blue Ion 2 battery is 16 kwh. At 48 VDC this is about 333 amp/hours. This is like an L16. To get 100 kwh you would need to parallel 6 strings of the 16 kWh batteries. I would never do this with L-16s. Is anyone worried about circulating currents in this type of installation? Is there technology to prevent one string from cannibalizing another? Here is another, more academic question below: In case I am using a term I made up (which is often the case), I define circulating currents as currents flowing between parallel strings without any outside influence. For example, if you disconnected all charging and loads from an array with two parallel strings, unless the strings were absolutely identical in electrical characteristics, there would be some current flowing between the two strings. In my opinion this is the Achilles heel in parallel strings. Also my opinions: 2. The more strings you have the more chance there will be debilitating circulating currents. 3. The older the batteries, the more the electrical characteristics will vary and the more likely you will get higher circulating currents. It is my theory that if you can measure the circulating currents, or the difference between parallel battery strings at any point in the operation of same, you can get a read on the health of the strings. The more the operating or idle currents diverge, the more one string will discharge the other string. I guess this is some part of a battery management system. I am guessing for the Blue Ion 2 to work in 6 parallel strings, they need to monitor and control this difference in currents. We just installed a flooded battery array (2 strings of 4 Deka M6100-33 batteries). My plan is to retrofit the installation with a 1000A/100mv shunt in the negative leads of both strings. With a DVM I can spot check the circulating currents to learn about the battery health. In fact I have a remote monitoring system [4] with some spare ports that can log these values. Might be an interesting experiment. I appreciate any input on the viability of the Blue Ion 2 or other small battery systems in multi-string installations. My customers are asking for new technology, but I instinctively avoid parallel battery strings. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com [5] CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the month: "As they age, batteries transition from energy storage devices to energy consuming devices." W. Miller FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [6]] ON BEHALF OF Lou Russo SENT: Saturday, July 20, 2019 1:50 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System Blue Ion 2.0 with Outback or SMA. Works every time. Blue Planet's tech support is great, the warranty is even better. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com [7] 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 10:36 AM Jay wrote: Hi Marco, Is the max surge 7kw, which is what is listed on line? Jay Peltz Power On Jul 19, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: Seven to eight Tesla Powerwalls will get you that assuming that the service entrance is no bigger than 200A. marco On Friday, July 19, 2019, Jason Szumlanski wrote: What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh range? Preferably Lithium. Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of 36kW, 120/240V? This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of things. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [18] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] -- Links: ------ [1] https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/6th-canberra-battery-test/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Commercial/Cal_Trans/Remote/Remote_Control.html [5] http://www.millersolar.com/ [6] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] mailto:lou at spreesolarsystems.com [8] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [9] mailto:marco at pvthawaii.com [10] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [19] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 16:09:48 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:09:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge reliability declining...??? In-Reply-To: <056001d5423a$d5a78680$80f69380$@greenwired.com> References: <038301d5422d$494e7de0$dbeb79a0$@solarcentex.com> <056001d5423a$d5a78680$80f69380$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Wrenches For some time starting last fall and into the spring we had several 7600 with some sort of issue, some comms, some dead, some failed in the field shortly after install, once we did the repairs/RMA's they seemed ok but we have moved away from them this year. Jerry On Wed, Jul 24, 2019, 12:55 PM Andrew wrote: > Hey Howard, > > We have started to notice this as well, we recently got 2 > DOA inverters(new setapps) in a row for the same client…They were not happy > either. I have also noticed their tech support has also gotten worse with > huge wait times or call backs days later. I really enjoy their equipment > but it’s a bummer that their quality has gone done hill. > > > > > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > [image: Description: signature] > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Howard Arey > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 24, 2019 7:37 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge reliability declining...??? > > > > Have any of you seen significant declines in SolarEdge inverter > reliability? > > We are having more inverter failures that at any time in the past five > years of installing SolarEdge. Lots of Code 181 hardware failures mostly in > the latest SetApp inverters (the ones without displays.) > > To compound matters, the RMA process is getting way too long and we are > waiting appx 3 weeks on average to receive a replacement. Customers > definitely not happy… > > What are you all seeing? > > > > *Howard “Scot” Arey* > > Owner, Solar CenTex > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > 254-300-1228 > > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > > > www.solarcentex.com > > https://www.facebook.com/SolarCentex > > [image: Solar Centex Logo - No Back] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 17801 bytes Desc: not available URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 20:08:28 2019 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 20:08:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system Message-ID: <5d38f2fe.1c69fb81.8053d.90d2@mx.google.com> I apologize for my ignorance on this issue, but in all my years I have never had to power a 230V load with an OutBack system before. A couple of quick questions. It is a 8 year old OutBack system with two FX2524T’s presently powering two 120Vac legs with no 240Vac output. • Homeowner is adding a Fujitsu mini split heat pump for air conditioning the home (summers are getting hot enough for AC even in northern Vermont). • It uses 7.9 Amps @ 230Vac • I have a OB PSX-240 Autoformer manufactured in 2008 in my inventory here. Should I use it for this application? • Do I wire it up just like in this schematic? • If so, what do I change in the programing on the Mate?  Presently it is ADV/FX/STACK  stack 1-2ph Master. Do I simply change it to  ADV/FX/STACK  stack Classic Slave? Thanks, Dave Palumbo, Independent Power, Hyde Park, VT Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 117D188619124C25986A4C6836DA5281.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 149758 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brettbartmasser at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 00:04:24 2019 From: brettbartmasser at gmail.com (Brett Bartmasser) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 21:04:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge reliability declining...??? In-Reply-To: References: <038301d5422d$494e7de0$dbeb79a0$@solarcentex.com> <056001d5423a$d5a78680$80f69380$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: We have had countless failures on the HD Waves, I am surprised they are even still in business. We have generally moved away from them in the last year. I have never seen an issue with their older equipment. On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 1:10 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > For some time starting last fall and into the spring we had several 7600 > with some sort of issue, some comms, some dead, some failed in the field > shortly after install, once we did the repairs/RMA's they seemed ok but we > have moved away from them this year. > Jerry > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2019, 12:55 PM Andrew wrote: > >> Hey Howard, >> >> We have started to notice this as well, we recently got 2 >> DOA inverters(new setapps) in a row for the same client…They were not happy >> either. I have also noticed their tech support has also gotten worse with >> huge wait times or call backs days later. I really enjoy their equipment >> but it’s a bummer that their quality has gone done hill. >> >> >> >> >> >> Andrew Perkins >> >> Greenwired >> >> P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 >> >> 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd >> >> Redway, CA 95560 >> >> www.greenwired.com >> >> [image: Description: signature] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Howard Arey >> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 24, 2019 7:37 AM >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge reliability declining...??? >> >> >> >> Have any of you seen significant declines in SolarEdge inverter >> reliability? >> >> We are having more inverter failures that at any time in the past five >> years of installing SolarEdge. Lots of Code 181 hardware failures mostly in >> the latest SetApp inverters (the ones without displays.) >> >> To compound matters, the RMA process is getting way too long and we are >> waiting appx 3 weeks on average to receive a replacement. Customers >> definitely not happy… >> >> What are you all seeing? >> >> >> >> *Howard “Scot” Arey* >> >> Owner, Solar CenTex >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> 254-300-1228 >> >> scot.arey at solarcentex.com >> >> >> >> www.solarcentex.com >> >> https://www.facebook.com/SolarCentex >> >> [image: Solar Centex Logo - No Back] >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jul 25 00:43:12 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 22:43:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system In-Reply-To: <5d38f2fe.1c69fb81.8053d.90d2@mx.google.com> References: <5d38f2fe.1c69fb81.8053d.90d2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: The transformer is just to balance the legs, and isn't necessary to run the heat pump with 2 inverters.  On the programming, port 1 should be /stack //1-2 ph Master/, and then set port 2 to /Classic slave./ BTW,  we as an industry should move far away from this archaic and offensive labeling.  Master? Slave?   My daughter heard me mention that the other day and was mortified, as all of us should be too.  Gentlefolks, it's time for some 21st Century solar Vocabulary. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/24/19 6:08 PM, David Palumbo wrote: > > I apologize for my ignorance on this issue, but in all my years I have > never had to power a 230V load with an OutBack system before. > > A couple of quick questions. It is a 8 year old OutBack system with > two FX2524T’s presently powering two 120Vac legs with no 240Vac output. > > * Homeowner is adding a Fujitsu mini split heat pump for air > conditioning the home (summers are getting hot enough for AC even > in northern Vermont). > * It uses 7.9 Amps @ 230Vac > * I have a OB PSX-240 Autoformer manufactured in 2008 in my > inventory here. Should I use it for this application? > * Do I wire it up just like in this schematic? > * If so, what do I change in the programing on the Mate?  Presently > it is ADV/FX/STACK  stack 1-2ph Master. Do I simply change it to >  ADV/FX/STACK  stack Classic Slave? > > Thanks, > > Dave Palumbo, Independent Power, Hyde Park, VT > > cid:image003.jpg at 01D54135.D30AA520 > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 00:54:37 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 00:54:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge AC coupled off-grid Message-ID: I have used SolarEdge to AC couple a smaller Array in the past, with no issues. I recently added a fairly significant array (6.2k DC via a SE6K (setap) inverter in an off-grid home which has had a dual stack VFX3648 for many years. I also added 32kWh of Blue Ion batteries replacing an 80kWh older flood Rolls "KS" battery bank. Unfortunately, it appears the SolarEdge is having trouble staying connected to the VFXs. According to the errors the SE throws errors indicating an grid instability and excessive harmonics. I made the mistake of telling SE that this was an off-grid application, and they basically stopped talking to me after explaining what the error codes mean. I'm wondering if the VFXs are just not capable of putting out clean anough ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 01:03:12 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 01:03:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge AC coupled off-grid (part 2) Message-ID: sorry, prematurely emailed previous post: I'm wondering if the VFXs are just not capable of putting out clean enough power in order to hold the SE HD inverter. I had it operating on this same system for a couple of hours with not this problem. Is it likely that this inverter combo is not going to work consistently? Will it make sense to use a different battery inverter (XW+6848 or Radian)? What has folks experience been in similar off-grid AC coupled SE systems? As always, thanks in advance for any thoughts. Best, Howie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jul 25 01:42:54 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 23:42:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge AC coupled off-grid (part 2) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56f240b8-c062-3f12-8790-af4d5b3024c9@solarray.com> I do not recommend AC coupling for off grid, except to offset daytime loads or to add PV at remote buildings.  Besides coupling errors like you're experiencing, the entire system will shut down and not recharge, if the VFX inverters shut down.   With a DC coupled array, the batteries can recharge, even if the inverters have shut down for low voltage, over load, etc.  At least when someone comes to reset it, the battery won't be dead too.  The 3rd reason, as you've found, SE and other GT manus, don't want to deal with off grid. There are higher voltage, higher capacity Charge controllers available now, like the FM100, and Magnum PT 100 that could almost handle that array with one controller.  The PT 100 will work with Midnite's SOB rapid disconnect system. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/24/19 11:03 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > sorry, prematurely emailed previous post: > > I'm wondering if the VFXs are just not capable of putting out clean > enough power in order to hold the SE HD inverter. I had it operating > on this same system for a couple of hours with not this problem.  Is > it likely that this inverter combo is not going to work consistently?  > Will it make sense to use a different battery inverter (XW+6848 or > Radian)? What has folks experience been in similar off-grid AC coupled > SE systems? > As always, thanks in advance for any thoughts. > > Best, > Howie > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 07:55:07 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:55:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge AC coupled off-grid (part 2) In-Reply-To: <56f240b8-c062-3f12-8790-af4d5b3024c9@solarray.com> References: <56f240b8-c062-3f12-8790-af4d5b3024c9@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray, I get the issues with AC coupling. However, this system already has a 3+ kW DC coupled array, the new array is close to 200' away, and it would take 2 more charge controllers of any of high voltage ones for this size array. Are there any battery based inverters that folks have had decent luck with AC coupling in an off-grid environment? (My preference would be the XW+). Thanks, Howie On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 1:43 AM Ray wrote: > I do not recommend AC coupling for off grid, except to offset daytime > loads or to add PV at remote buildings. Besides coupling errors like > you're experiencing, the entire system will shut down and not recharge, if > the VFX inverters shut down. With a DC coupled array, the batteries can > recharge, even if the inverters have shut down for low voltage, over load, > etc. At least when someone comes to reset it, the battery won't be dead > too. The 3rd reason, as you've found, SE and other GT manus, don't want to > deal with off grid. > > There are higher voltage, higher capacity Charge controllers available > now, like the FM100, and Magnum PT 100 that could almost handle that array > with one controller. The PT 100 will work with Midnite's SOB rapid > disconnect system. > > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/24/19 11:03 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > sorry, prematurely emailed previous post: > > I'm wondering if the VFXs are just not capable of putting out clean enough > power in order to hold the SE HD inverter. I had it operating on this same > system for a couple of hours with not this problem. Is it likely that this > inverter combo is not going to work consistently? Will it make sense to > use a different battery inverter (XW+6848 or Radian)? What has folks > experience been in similar off-grid AC coupled SE systems? > As always, thanks in advance for any thoughts. > > Best, > Howie > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 25 10:04:01 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 10:04:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System and ciculating currents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, it's my understanding that the BMS systems on each parallel battery deals with/prevents any imbalance. As for 48V, I have been working with some that are 51V nominal and I know there are some 60V solutions out there, so it's not so cut and dry to use amp-hours. That's why I like talk in kWh to standardize. I am taking the DoD into account when discussing my needs. I would probably need a battery almost double the size in a lead acid chemistry! On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 8:59 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > William > I have a few blue ion installs that was used for testing. I used eguage to > monitor all DC in and out of each stack of 16k with no issues. The BMU > manages everything and can be chained to each other to reduce or even > prevent that issue. I have seen Blue Ions original stacks greater then 100k > with years in the field, so with that cross bleed should be not a problem. > Jerry > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 4:59 PM William Miller > wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I am a complete newbie to any lithium technologies, so please forgive >> some newbie questions: >> >> >> >> I am used to working in amp hours. If we are looking for a battery bank >> in the range of 100 kWh, this converts to about 2,083 amp/hours at 48 VDC. >> Is my arithmetic correct? An on-line calculator seems to confirm this. >> >> >> >> The biggest Blue Ion 2 battery is 16 kwh. At 48 VDC this is about 333 >> amp/hours. This is like an L16. To get 100 kwh you would need to parallel >> 6 strings of the 16 kWh batteries. I would never do this with L-16s. Is >> anyone worried about circulating currents in this type of installation? Is >> there technology to prevent one string from cannibalizing another? >> >> >> >> Here is another, more academic question below: >> >> >> >> In case I am using a term I made up (which is often the case), I define >> circulating currents as currents flowing between parallel strings without >> any outside influence. For example, if you disconnected all charging and >> loads from an array with two parallel strings, unless the strings were >> absolutely identical in electrical characteristics, there would be some >> current flowing between the two strings. In my opinion this is the >> Achilles heel in parallel strings. Also my opinions: 2. The more strings >> you have the more chance there will be debilitating circulating currents. >> 3. The older the batteries, the more the electrical characteristics will >> vary and the more likely you will get higher circulating currents. >> >> >> >> It is my theory that if you can measure the circulating currents, or the >> difference between parallel battery strings at any point in the operation >> of same, you can get a read on the health of the strings. The more the >> operating or idle currents diverge, the more one string will discharge the >> other string. I guess this is some part of a battery management system. I >> am guessing for the Blue Ion 2 to work in 6 parallel strings, they need to >> monitor and control this difference in currents. >> >> >> >> We just installed a flooded battery array (2 strings of 4 Deka M6100-33 >> batteries). My plan is to retrofit the installation with a 1000A/100mv >> shunt in the negative leads of both strings. With a DVM I can spot check >> the circulating currents to learn about the battery health. In fact I have >> a remote monitoring system >> >> with some spare ports that can log these values. Might be an interesting >> experiment. >> >> >> >> I appreciate any input on the viability of the Blue Ion 2 or other small >> battery systems in multi-string installations. My customers are asking for >> new technology, but I instinctively avoid parallel battery strings. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy >> >> storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Lou Russo >> *Sent:* Saturday, July 20, 2019 1:50 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Large Off-Grid Residential System >> >> >> >> Blue Ion 2.0 with Outback or SMA. Works every time. >> >> Blue Planet's tech support is great, the warranty is even better. >> >> >> >> Aloha, >> >> >> >> Lou Russo >> >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> >> 808 345 6762 >> >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> >> CT-34322 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 10:36 AM Jay wrote: >> >> Hi Marco, >> >> >> >> Is the max surge 7kw, which is what is listed on line? >> >> >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz Power >> >> >> On Jul 19, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf >> wrote: >> >> Seven to eight Tesla Powerwalls will get you that assuming that the >> service entrance is no bigger than 200A. >> >> >> >> marco >> >> On Friday, July 19, 2019, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> What are current popular options for battery based systems in the 100kWh >> range? Preferably Lithium. >> >> >> >> Also, what inverter pairing is suggested with total stacked capacity of >> 36kW, 120/240V? >> >> >> >> This is slightly larger than some of the systems I have worked with >> recently. I'm a bit out of the loop, particularly on the battery side of >> things. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 25 10:08:49 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 10:08:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Consolidating meters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In Florida the utility must offer a single point of service for a property or contiguous properties owned by a single entity, even if broken by a road or other easement. If the properties are not contiguous, the utility can require separate meters, but you'd have a hard time maintaining electrical continuity for the PV system across non-contiguous properties anyway! We have done it (subbed it out). It's not that difficult if the meters are in reasonably close proximity. The cost was well justified based on FL Net Metering Rules , which prohibits conjunctive/aggregated billing for separate account (meters). On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 2:30 PM Andrew Truitt wrote: > > Happy 4th Wrenches! Has anyone ever been through the process of > consolidating utility electric meters for a client? We're talking to an > HOA that has 15 meters throughout the community for common area loads > (clubhouse, pool pump, lighting, fountain...) so they're paying a fixed > monthly charge on each in addition to energy and demand charges. > Consolidating to a single master meter (possibly with sub-metering) would > likely lower their costs on its own, and (more importantly?) would improve > the value proposition for a PV+ESS installation. We're not sure if the > community is served by a single or multiple transformers yet, but if it is > just one then the process should be straightforward from a technical > standpoint. The interwebs tell me that some providers (seems like mostly > co-ops) are open to this, but I can't find anything for this particular > utility. > > > Regards, > > > Andrew Truitt > > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > [image: Logo] > > > > The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient > specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of > this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. > If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and > follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not > occur in the future. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jul 25 10:45:07 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 08:45:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge AC coupled off-grid (part 2) In-Reply-To: References: <56f240b8-c062-3f12-8790-af4d5b3024c9@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1fa6fec6-287c-f6be-3e86-2af0bcf036dd@solarray.com> I've AC coupled off grid with the Sunny Island, but I haven't tried it with Solar Edge.  Can you adjust the Solar Edge coupling window to outside the IEEE set points?  We used to have set all GT inverters in Hawaii wider, because the utility wanted them to stay on longer in a brown out. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/25/19 5:55 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hi Ray, > I get the issues with AC coupling.  However, this system already has a > 3+ kW DC coupled array, the new array is close to 200' away, and it > would take 2 more charge controllers of any of high voltage ones for > this size array. > Are there any battery based inverters that folks have had decent luck > with AC coupling in an off-grid environment?  (My preference would be > the XW+). > Thanks, > Howie > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 1:43 AM Ray > wrote: > > I do not recommend AC coupling for off grid, except to offset > daytime loads or to add PV at remote buildings. Besides coupling > errors like you're experiencing, the entire system will shut down > and not recharge, if the VFX inverters shut down.   With a DC > coupled array, the batteries can recharge, even if the inverters > have shut down for low voltage, over load, etc.  At least when > someone comes to reset it, the battery won't be dead too. The 3rd > reason, as you've found, SE and other GT manus, don't want to deal > with off grid. > > There are higher voltage, higher capacity Charge controllers > available now, like the FM100, and Magnum PT 100 that could almost > handle that array with one controller.  The PT 100 will work with > Midnite's SOB rapid disconnect system. > > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/24/19 11:03 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >> sorry, prematurely emailed previous post: >> >> I'm wondering if the VFXs are just not capable of putting out >> clean enough power in order to hold the SE HD inverter. I had it >> operating on this same system for a couple of hours with not this >> problem.  Is it likely that this inverter combo is not going to >> work consistently?  Will it make sense to use a different battery >> inverter (XW+6848 or Radian)? What has folks experience been in >> similar off-grid AC coupled SE systems? >> As always, thanks in advance for any thoughts. >> >> Best, >> Howie >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu Jul 25 01:42:06 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 19:42:06 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase and Tesla Powerwall Message-ID: Aloha, I’m thinking about combining the Enphase IQ 7 micros with a Tesla Powerwall or two. Anyone out there try this? With bueno or not so bueno results? Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Thu Jul 25 03:16:36 2019 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 00:16:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge reliability declining...??? In-Reply-To: <038301d5422d$494e7de0$dbeb79a0$@solarcentex.com> References: <038301d5422d$494e7de0$dbeb79a0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Good to know. 1. I just installed the latest SetApp inverters (the ones without displays) for a ground-mounted array with the inverter in the dwelling. 2. The ground-mounted system had to comply with CEC 2016/NEC 2014 690.12 in California because the system was "in the building." Would the inverter in an indoor or outdoor location be a factor in the failures? All the best, Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 https://www.youracclaim.com/badges/a54a49a9-31cb-4f52-b35f-9d7c90630bb9/public_url Adjunct Professor, Energy, American River College Contract Training Provider (CTP) Since 2004. California Solar Contractor License #00833782 C46, D56, D31, C-7 Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG https://www.youracclaim.com/badges/f23ae19b-0370-4ca1-99d1-418403a8faea/linked_in_profile * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors * Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider https://coursecatalog.nabcep.org/providers/martin-herzfeld On Wed, Jul 24, 2019, 7:37 AM Howard Arey wrote: > Have any of you seen significant declines in SolarEdge inverter > reliability? > > We are having more inverter failures that at any time in the past five > years of installing SolarEdge. Lots of Code 181 hardware failures mostly in > the latest SetApp inverters (the ones without displays.) > > To compound matters, the RMA process is getting way too long and we are > waiting appx 3 weeks on average to receive a replacement. Customers > definitely not happy… > > What are you all seeing? > > > > *Howard “Scot” Arey* > > Owner, Solar CenTex > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > 254-300-1228 > > scot.arey at solarcentex.com > > > > www.solarcentex.com > > https://www.facebook.com/SolarCentex > > [image: Solar Centex Logo - No Back] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 48500 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 10:45:43 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:45:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system In-Reply-To: References: <5d38f2fe.1c69fb81.8053d.90d2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray, I am going to disagree with you. The transformer in OB stacking mode balances the inverter outputs and allows out of balance phase power. Depending on how you set the power save mode it’ll use master then trigger slave to turn on about 1000 watts. But you could have 2000 watts on leg 1 with each inverter doing 1000 watts. As to the mode, you need OB stacking, not classic stacking for the use of the balancing transformer. Jay > On Jul 24, 2019, at 9:43 PM, Ray wrote: > > The transformer is just to balance the legs, and isn't necessary to run the heat pump with 2 inverters. On the programming, port 1 should be stack 1-2 ph Master, and then set port 2 to Classic slave. > > BTW, we as an industry should move far away from this archaic and offensive labeling. Master? Slave? My daughter heard me mention that the other day and was mortified, as all of us should be too. Gentlefolks, it's time for some 21st Century solar Vocabulary. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 >> On 7/24/19 6:08 PM, David Palumbo wrote: >> I apologize for my ignorance on this issue, but in all my years I have never had to power a 230V load with an OutBack system before. >> A couple of quick questions. It is a 8 year old OutBack system with two FX2524T’s presently powering two 120Vac legs with no 240Vac output. >> Homeowner is adding a Fujitsu mini split heat pump for air conditioning the home (summers are getting hot enough for AC even in northern Vermont). >> It uses 7.9 Amps @ 230Vac >> I have a OB PSX-240 Autoformer manufactured in 2008 in my inventory here. Should I use it for this application? >> Do I wire it up just like in this schematic? >> If so, what do I change in the programing on the Mate? Presently it is ADV/FX/STACK stack 1-2ph Master. Do I simply change it to ADV/FX/STACK stack Classic Slave? >> Thanks, >> Dave Palumbo, Independent Power, Hyde Park, VT >> >> >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 117D188619124C25986A4C6836DA5281.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 149758 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 25 11:29:13 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 11:29:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] To Bond or Not to Bond the Neutral to Ground In-Reply-To: References: <63251222-60C6-4958-98D5-DC338F98D24B@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think the answer is in 250.28(D)(2). A bonding jumper is required in each service disconnect (including the solar disconnect) bonding neutral to ground. Then you have to look to 250.64(D) for how to run your GEC. There are multiple ways to comply. Consider 250.64(D)(3): Think of a wiring enclosure with service laterals that has a bus bar for neutral (as in multiple service disconnects for a property, regardless of whether solar is present). Each service disconnect neutral connects to the bus bar, but there is no GEC from each disconnect to the grounding electrode. There is a single point on the bus bar in the service lateral enclosure where the GEC connects and is routed to the grounding electrode system. Each service disconnect requires a bonding jumper from neutral to ground. But in that case you do not need to run a GEC from each service disconnect bus bar to the service lateral bus bar. You only run the GEC from a single disconnect or a single point on the common bus bar in the service lateral enclosure. The neutral provides the EGC function/pathway for each service disconnect. It might seem a little strange to NOT run a EGC to each service disconnect, but that's the way I read it. So the single common point of connection of the GEC can be in the existing service disconnect and no GEC is required at all from the solar disconnect. The bonding jumper is required to be installed in the solar disconnect. But 250.64(D)(1) is the way we do it. Every jurisdiction around here requires that a neutral and a ground (GEC) be run to each service disconnect, including the solar disconnect and that the bonding jumper be installed in the solar disconnect. Another way I have seen it done that I DO NOT believe complies is to simply pass through the solar neutral in the solar disconnect without landing it there and just land it in the existing main service panel. On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 4:39 PM Rick Brown < rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com> wrote: > Al, > See 250.2: > “Bonding Jumper, Supply-Side. A conductor installed on the supply side of > a service or within a service equipment enclosure(s), or for a separately > derived system, that ensures the required electrical conductivity between > metal.” > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > On Jul 23, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Al Frishman wrote: > > Hey Wrenchers, > I have been having a design debate with several associates regarding > bonding the Neutral to the Ground for Line Side grid connections. > > In the fused solar AC Disconnect located closest to the Service Line Side > grid connection should the Neutral be bonded to Ground? What Article in > the NEC defines the requirement. > > As always your feedback is appreciated. > > *Al Frishman* > EvolvedSolar > (917) 699-6641 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Jul 25 11:10:24 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 08:10:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase and Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Marco - We have dozens of systems with this combo, so far no problem. Tesla's AC coupling mechanism in general seems to be very robust - we've paired them with many inverter types and brands, and they always seem to couple up during our grid-off tests. Since the vast majority of our systems are grid tied, the real test will be how they will work over the long haul if we have major grid outages - who knows if and when that might happen. I've been in PG&E territory in the Bay Area for about 15 years and can only recall one or two short (less than one hour) power outages. August On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 7:58 AM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Aloha, > > I’m thinking about combining the Enphase IQ 7 micros with a Tesla > Powerwall or two. > > Anyone out there try this? With bueno or not so bueno results? > > Mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jul 25 11:55:45 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 09:55:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system In-Reply-To: References: <5d38f2fe.1c69fb81.8053d.90d2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: The transformer balances the legs, each leg being fed by a separate inverter.  We're not in disagreement. The stacking mode I described is if he didn't use the T former. I prefer the non T former set up,  as I've seen several cases were the master inverter was over worked, and had to be rebuilt and/ or have its fan replaced within 5 to 8 years. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/25/19 8:45 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi Ray, > > I am going to disagree with you. > The transformer in OB stacking mode balances the inverter outputs and > allows out of balance phase power. Depending on how you set the power > save mode it’ll use master then trigger slave to turn on about  1000 > watts. But you could have 2000 watts on leg 1 with each inverter doing > 1000 watts. > > As to the mode, you need OB stacking, not classic stacking for the use > of the balancing transformer. > > Jay > > > On Jul 24, 2019, at 9:43 PM, Ray > wrote: > >> The transformer is just to balance the legs, and isn't necessary to >> run the heat pump with 2 inverters.  On the programming, port 1 >> should be /stack //1-2 ph Master/, and then set port 2 to /Classic >> slave./ >> >> BTW,  we as an industry should move far away from this archaic and >> offensive labeling.  Master? Slave?   My daughter heard me mention >> that the other day and was mortified, as all of us should be too.  >> Gentlefolks, it's time for some 21st Century solar Vocabulary. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 7/24/19 6:08 PM, David Palumbo wrote: >>> >>> I apologize for my ignorance on this issue, but in all my years I >>> have never had to power a 230V load with an OutBack system before. >>> >>> A couple of quick questions. It is a 8 year old OutBack system with >>> two FX2524T’s presently powering two 120Vac legs with no 240Vac output. >>> >>> * Homeowner is adding a Fujitsu mini split heat pump for air >>> conditioning the home (summers are getting hot enough for AC >>> even in northern Vermont). >>> * It uses 7.9 Amps @ 230Vac >>> * I have a OB PSX-240 Autoformer manufactured in 2008 in my >>> inventory here. Should I use it for this application? >>> * Do I wire it up just like in this schematic? >>> * If so, what do I change in the programing on the Mate? Presently >>> it is ADV/FX/STACK  stack 1-2ph Master. Do I simply change it to >>>  ADV/FX/STACK  stack Classic Slave? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Dave Palumbo, Independent Power, Hyde Park, VT >>> >>> cid:image003.jpg at 01D54135.D30AA520 >>> >>> Sent from Mail for >>> Windows 10 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 12:44:55 2019 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 09:44:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system In-Reply-To: <5d38f2fe.1c69fb81.8053d.90d2@mx.google.com> References: <5d38f2fe.1c69fb81.8053d.90d2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Is the mini split European voltage where it is 230v line 1 to neutral......Outback makes inverters for that too.... 50 hz? Kirpal On Wed, Jul 24, 2019, 11:06 PM David Palumbo wrote: > I apologize for my ignorance on this issue, but in all my years I have > never had to power a 230V load with an OutBack system before. > > A couple of quick questions. It is a 8 year old OutBack system with two > FX2524T’s presently powering two 120Vac legs with no 240Vac output. > > - Homeowner is adding a Fujitsu mini split heat pump for air > conditioning the home (summers are getting hot enough for AC even in > northern Vermont). > - It uses 7.9 Amps @ 230Vac > - I have a OB PSX-240 Autoformer manufactured in 2008 in my inventory > here. Should I use it for this application? > - Do I wire it up just like in this schematic? > - If so, what do I change in the programing on the Mate? Presently it > is ADV/FX/STACK stack 1-2ph Master. Do I simply change it to ADV/FX/STACK > stack Classic Slave? > > Thanks, > > Dave Palumbo, Independent Power, Hyde Park, VT > > > > [image: cid:image003.jpg at 01D54135.D30AA520] > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 117D188619124C25986A4C6836DA5281.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 149758 bytes Desc: not available URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 12:48:25 2019 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 12:48:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system In-Reply-To: References: <5d38f2fe.1c69fb81.8053d.90d2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5d39dd5b.1c69fb81.cfc31.67d2@mx.google.com> It is a standard 60Hz 230Vac unit Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Kirpal Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 12:45 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system Is the mini split European voltage where it is 230v line 1 to neutral......Outback makes inverters for that too.... 50 hz? Kirpal On Wed, Jul 24, 2019, 11:06 PM David Palumbo wrote: I apologize for my ignorance on this issue, but in all my years I have never had to power a 230V load with an OutBack system before. A couple of quick questions. It is a 8 year old OutBack system with two FX2524T’s presently powering two 120Vac legs with no 240Vac output. • Homeowner is adding a Fujitsu mini split heat pump for air conditioning the home (summers are getting hot enough for AC even in northern Vermont). • It uses 7.9 Amps @ 230Vac • I have a OB PSX-240 Autoformer manufactured in 2008 in my inventory here. Should I use it for this application? • Do I wire it up just like in this schematic? • If so, what do I change in the programing on the Mate?  Presently it is ADV/FX/STACK  stack 1-2ph Master. Do I simply change it to  ADV/FX/STACK  stack Classic Slave? Thanks, Dave Palumbo, Independent Power, Hyde Park, VT     Sent from Mail for Windows 10   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 117D188619124C25986A4C6836DA5281.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 149758 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 11:45:02 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 08:45:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase and Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Marco Yes, we have, has a single tesla all for HECo, probably you have the same thought for your customer, we can talk more off line if interested. Jerry On Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 7:58 AM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Aloha, > > I’m thinking about combining the Enphase IQ 7 micros with a Tesla > Powerwall or two. > > Anyone out there try this? With bueno or not so bueno results? > > Mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Jul 25 13:12:23 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 13:12:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system In-Reply-To: <5d39dd5b.1c69fb81.cfc31.67d2@mx.google.com> References: <5d38f2fe.1c69fb81.8053d.90d2@mx.google.com> <5d39dd5b.1c69fb81.cfc31.67d2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <009301d5430c$209c2430$61d46c90$@glbcc.com> If you are talking about two 120VAC legs, then the split phase voltage is 240V, not 230V which is what you would see as a standard in Europe not here. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of David Palumbo Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 12:48 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system It is a standard 60Hz 230Vac unit Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Kirpal Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 12:45 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system Is the mini split European voltage where it is 230v line 1 to neutral......Outback makes inverters for that too.... 50 hz? Kirpal On Wed, Jul 24, 2019, 11:06 PM David Palumbo > wrote: I apologize for my ignorance on this issue, but in all my years I have never had to power a 230V load with an OutBack system before. A couple of quick questions. It is a 8 year old OutBack system with two FX2524T’s presently powering two 120Vac legs with no 240Vac output. * Homeowner is adding a Fujitsu mini split heat pump for air conditioning the home (summers are getting hot enough for AC even in northern Vermont). * It uses 7.9 Amps @ 230Vac * I have a OB PSX-240 Autoformer manufactured in 2008 in my inventory here. Should I use it for this application? * Do I wire it up just like in this schematic? * If so, what do I change in the programing on the Mate? Presently it is ADV/FX/STACK stack 1-2ph Master. Do I simply change it to ADV/FX/STACK stack Classic Slave? Thanks, Dave Palumbo, Independent Power, Hyde Park, VT Sent from Mail for Windows 10 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu Jul 25 13:36:59 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:36:59 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase and Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds encouraging, August. Mahalo. Are any of those systems zero export by any chance? marco On Thursday, July 25, 2019, August Goers wrote: > Hi Marco - We have dozens of systems with this combo, so far no problem. > Tesla's AC coupling mechanism in general seems to be very robust - we've > paired them with many inverter types and brands, and they always seem to > couple up during our grid-off tests. Since the vast majority of our systems > are grid tied, the real test will be how they will work over the long haul > if we have major grid outages - who knows if and when that might happen. > I've been in PG&E territory in the Bay Area for about 15 years and can only > recall one or two short (less than one hour) power outages. > > > August > > > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 7:58 AM Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > >> Aloha, >> >> I’m thinking about combining the Enphase IQ 7 micros with a Tesla >> Powerwall or two. >> >> Anyone out there try this? With bueno or not so bueno results? >> >> Mahalo, >> marco >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 15:10:59 2019 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 15:10:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system In-Reply-To: <009301d5430c$209c2430$61d46c90$@glbcc.com> References: <5d38f2fe.1c69fb81.8053d.90d2@mx.google.com> <5d39dd5b.1c69fb81.cfc31.67d2@mx.google.com> <009301d5430c$209c2430$61d46c90$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <5d39fec4.1c69fb81.3ea87.e632@mx.google.com> The heat pump is a made for USA product that operates on 1ph 60Hz and with an acceptable voltage range of 210 to 253Vac. I don’t know why they list it as 230Vac, could have listed it as 240Vac. Same thing as loads that are either listed as 115Vac or 120Vac, not much real world difference. With typical utility voltages and with line loss going out to the heat pump actual voltage at the load is more likely closer to 230Vac than to 240Vac. Dave Palumbo Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Glenn Burt Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 1:53 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system If you are talking about two 120VAC legs, then the split phase voltage is 240V, not 230V which is what you would see as a standard in Europe not here. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of David Palumbo Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 12:48 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system It is a standard 60Hz 230Vac unit Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Kirpal Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 12:45 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system Is the mini split European voltage where it is 230v line 1 to neutral......Outback makes inverters for that too.... 50 hz? Kirpal On Wed, Jul 24, 2019, 11:06 PM David Palumbo wrote: I apologize for my ignorance on this issue, but in all my years I have never had to power a 230V load with an OutBack system before. A couple of quick questions. It is a 8 year old OutBack system with two FX2524T’s presently powering two 120Vac legs with no 240Vac output. • Homeowner is adding a Fujitsu mini split heat pump for air conditioning the home (summers are getting hot enough for AC even in northern Vermont). • It uses 7.9 Amps @ 230Vac • I have a OB PSX-240 Autoformer manufactured in 2008 in my inventory here. Should I use it for this application? • Do I wire it up just like in this schematic? • If so, what do I change in the programing on the Mate?  Presently it is ADV/FX/STACK  stack 1-2ph Master. Do I simply change it to  ADV/FX/STACK  stack Classic Slave? Thanks, Dave Palumbo, Independent Power, Hyde Park, VT     Sent from Mail for Windows 10   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Jul 25 15:18:44 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 12:18:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system In-Reply-To: <5d39fec4.1c69fb81.3ea87.e632@mx.google.com> References: <5d38f2fe.1c69fb81.8053d.90d2@mx.google.com> <5d39dd5b.1c69fb81.cfc31.67d2@mx.google.com> <009301d5430c$209c2430$61d46c90$@glbcc.com> <5d39fec4.1c69fb81.3ea87.e632@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Many appliances, motors, AC units, etc are rated for 230 volts, but really they work for our modern 240 volt services. If you do a quick web search, it appears that US standard voltages over the years have morphed from 110 to 115, to 120 volt: https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/difference-between-220v-and-240v -August On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 12:11 PM David Palumbo wrote: > The heat pump is a made for USA product that operates on 1ph 60Hz and with > an acceptable voltage range of 210 to 253Vac. I don’t know why they list it > as 230Vac, could have listed it as 240Vac. Same thing as loads that are > either listed as 115Vac or 120Vac, not much real world difference. With > typical utility voltages and with line loss going out to the heat pump > actual voltage at the load is more likely closer to 230Vac than to 240Vac. > > Dave Palumbo > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > > *From: *Glenn Burt > *Sent: *Thursday, July 25, 2019 1:53 PM > *To: *'RE-wrenches' > *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system > > > > If you are talking about two 120VAC legs, then the split phase voltage is > 240V, not 230V which is what you would see as a standard in Europe not here. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *David Palumbo > *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2019 12:48 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system > > > > It is a standard 60Hz 230Vac unit > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > > *From: *Kirpal > *Sent: *Thursday, July 25, 2019 12:45 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches > *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] 230Vac load on OB FX2524T system > > > > Is the mini split European voltage where it is 230v line 1 to > neutral......Outback makes inverters for that too.... 50 hz? > > Kirpal > > > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2019, 11:06 PM David Palumbo > wrote: > > I apologize for my ignorance on this issue, but in all my years I have > never had to power a 230V load with an OutBack system before. > > A couple of quick questions. It is a 8 year old OutBack system with two > FX2524T’s presently powering two 120Vac legs with no 240Vac output. > > - Homeowner is adding a Fujitsu mini split heat pump for air > conditioning the home (summers are getting hot enough for AC even in > northern Vermont). > - It uses 7.9 Amps @ 230Vac > - I have a OB PSX-240 Autoformer manufactured in 2008 in my inventory > here. Should I use it for this application? > - Do I wire it up just like in this schematic? > - If so, what do I change in the programing on the Mate? Presently it > is ADV/FX/STACK stack 1-2ph Master. Do I simply change it to ADV/FX/STACK > stack Classic Slave? > > Thanks, > > Dave Palumbo, Independent Power, Hyde Park, VT > > > > [image: cid:image003.jpg at 01D54135.D30AA520] > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Jul 25 14:49:18 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 11:49:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase and Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, we haven't done any zero export. I guess both the Powerwall and Enphase systems would need to be independently programmed for zero export? I should add a caveat - all of our IQ7 systems have been the SunPower branded Equinox type, not Enphase. The main difference being that Enphase would use their envoy box and SunPower uses the PV Supervisor 6. August On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 10:53 AM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Sounds encouraging, August. Mahalo. > > Are any of those systems zero export by any chance? > > marco > > On Thursday, July 25, 2019, August Goers wrote: > >> Hi Marco - We have dozens of systems with this combo, so far no problem. >> Tesla's AC coupling mechanism in general seems to be very robust - we've >> paired them with many inverter types and brands, and they always seem to >> couple up during our grid-off tests. Since the vast majority of our systems >> are grid tied, the real test will be how they will work over the long haul >> if we have major grid outages - who knows if and when that might happen. >> I've been in PG&E territory in the Bay Area for about 15 years and can only >> recall one or two short (less than one hour) power outages. >> >> >> August >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 7:58 AM Marco Mangelsdorf >> wrote: >> >>> Aloha, >>> >>> I’m thinking about combining the Enphase IQ 7 micros with a Tesla >>> Powerwall or two. >>> >>> Anyone out there try this? With bueno or not so bueno results? >>> >>> Mahalo, >>> marco >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Thu Jul 25 19:15:28 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:15:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 100ms for Locked Rotor Amps? Message-ID: Hey There Wrenches, So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will NOT double the surge ratings of a single SW. But that brings me to my second question: What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms? 100ms?  1 sec? Yourengineering wisdom welcomed! Thanks, Jeff Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: > Thanks for the tip! I'll check the firmware. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: > >> Hi Jeff, >> >> I am not going to guess if this will work, it should.  I use XW's >> because they start anything I have come across. >> >> If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same firmware. >> There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their development. >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater >> wrote: >> >>> Hey Esteemed Wrenches, >>> >>> So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) >>> Schneider SW for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. >>> >>> But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is >>> only rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping >>> kick - probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. >>> >>> The SW has the following surge capability: >>> >>> SW 4048 Rated@ 240 Volts: >>> Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts >>> 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts >>> 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts >>> Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts >>> >>> Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? >>> >>> Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Jeff >>> >> -- >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jul 25 20:48:52 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 18:48:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 100ms for Locked Rotor Amps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43f52ddf-b3f2-87b6-df21-b7bc31fec861@solarray.com> I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get an idea what an inverter can really do in the real world.  All those millisecond ratings/ in rush current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and will basically just get you into trouble.  The reason they have those ratings in amps and not watts, is that the voltage craters during that 100mS surge. I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump, compressor, or large table saw, and the inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush current" was within the theoretical inverter capacity.  Actual Wrench list testimonials are much more valuable than those arcane specs. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Hey There Wrenches, > > So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will NOT > double the surge ratings of a single SW. > > But that brings me to my second question: > > What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at maximum > Inrush or LRA - 1ms?  100ms?  1 sec? > > Yourengineering wisdom welcomed! > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > > > Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: > >> Thanks for the tip!  I'll check the firmware. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: >> >>> Hi Jeff, >>> >>> I am not going to guess if this will work, it should.  I use XW's >>> because they start anything I have come across. >>> >>> If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same >>> firmware. There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their >>> development. >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hey Esteemed Wrenches, >>>> >>>> So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) >>>> Schneider SW for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. >>>> >>>> But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is >>>> only rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a >>>> whopping kick - probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor >>>> rating. >>>> >>>> The SW has the following surge capability: >>>> >>>> SW 4048 Rated@ 240 Volts: >>>> Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts >>>> 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts >>>> 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts >>>> Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts >>>> >>>> Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? >>>> >>>> Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 01:17:13 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 22:17:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 100ms for Locked Rotor Amps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Some time back, (years) l did a off grid system for a customer that was building his home, he was milli g lumber from the home site, l quoted a Outback PS-4 3648, the customer already had a very large battery bank 2000 amp hrs. at 48 DC nominal. Anyway he had a well on a 5 hp. freq drive and a very big tall 6" bandsaw, trace/Schneider said no way could there stack do the job and it was larger. Outback on the other had said no problem and for years after that PS-4 ran the well, the saws and now the finished home. It is interesting that Schneider was not willing to do what Outback could, they must have something in there root programming preventing the stacked surge. Some like Chevrolet, some like Ford, l have done rows of Radians and lm sure some out there have the same with other manufacturers. It's all good data for all of us. Jerry On Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Hey There Wrenches, > > So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will NOT > double the surge ratings of a single SW. > > But that brings me to my second question: > > What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at maximum > Inrush or LRA - 1ms? 100ms? 1 sec? > > Your engineering wisdom welcomed! > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > > > Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: > > Thanks for the tip! I'll check the firmware. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: > > Hi Jeff, > > > > I am not going to guess if this will work, it should. I use XW's because > they start anything I have come across. > > If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same firmware. > There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their development. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > > Hey Esteemed Wrenches, > > So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider SW > for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. > > But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is only > rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping kick - > probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. > > The SW has the following surge capability: > > SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts: > Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts > 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts > 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts > Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts > > Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? > > Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > -- > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Jul 26 09:32:32 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 06:32:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 100ms for Locked Rotor Amps? In-Reply-To: <43f52ddf-b3f2-87b6-df21-b7bc31fec861@solarray.com> References: <43f52ddf-b3f2-87b6-df21-b7bc31fec861@solarray.com> Message-ID: <901272ea-1752-e1eb-d6bd-a968f5d1bfd7@villagepowerdesign.com> Thanks Ray and Jerry, Great to hear from you both with your years of combined experience :) So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a trusty Radian - even then from what you are saying it may not work. And you are right Ray -  Outback is careful to rate the "overload capability" in KVA rather than KW due most likely to voltage sag of course. So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 second (50 A) might not start - especially with other loads on the system? RADIAN SURGE RATINGS: Maximum Output Current 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC Overload Capability 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa 5 seconds 12 kVa 30 minute 9 kVa Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump motors on a Radian? Thanks! Jeff Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: > I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get an idea what > an inverter can really do in the real world.  All those millisecond > ratings/ in rush current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and > will basically just get you into trouble.  The reason they have those > ratings in amps and not watts, is that the voltage craters during that > 100mS surge. > > I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump, compressor, > or large table saw, and the inverter just shut off, even though the > "in rush current" was within the theoretical inverter capacity.  > Actual Wrench list testimonials are much more valuable than those > arcane specs. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >> Hey There Wrenches, >> >> So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will NOT >> double the surge ratings of a single SW. >> >> But that brings me to my second question: >> >> What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at >> maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms?  100ms?  1 sec? >> >> Yourengineering wisdom welcomed! >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: >> >>> Thanks for the tip!  I'll check the firmware. >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: >>> >>>> Hi Jeff, >>>> >>>> I am not going to guess if this will work, it should.  I use XW's >>>> because they start anything I have come across. >>>> >>>> If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same >>>> firmware. There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their >>>> development. >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hey Esteemed Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) >>>>> Schneider SW for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. >>>>> >>>>> But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is >>>>> only rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a >>>>> whopping kick - probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor >>>>> rating. >>>>> >>>>> The SW has the following surge capability: >>>>> >>>>> SW 4048 Rated@ 240 Volts: >>>>> Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts >>>>> 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts >>>>> 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts >>>>> Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts >>>>> >>>>> Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? >>>>> >>>>> Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Jul 26 10:03:32 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 07:03:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? Message-ID: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey Wrenches, Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and sewage pumps to lower the surge for off-grid inverters? The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA Omnivore Grinder Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac. Thanks! Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM: > Thanks Ray and Jerry, > > Great to hear from you both with your years of combined experience :) > > So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a trusty Radian - > even then from what you are saying it may not work. > > And you are right Ray -  Outback is careful to rate the "overload > capability" in KVA rather than KW due most likely to voltage sag of > course. > > So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 second (50 A) > might not start - especially with other loads on the system? > > RADIAN SURGE RATINGS: > > Maximum Output Current > 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC > 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC > > Overload Capability > 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa > 5 seconds 12 kVa > 30 minute 9 kVa > > Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump motors on a Radian? > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > > Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: > >> I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get an idea what >> an inverter can really do in the real world.  All those millisecond >> ratings/ in rush current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and >> will basically just get you into trouble.  The reason they have those >> ratings in amps and not watts, is that the voltage craters during >> that 100mS surge. >> >> I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump, compressor, >> or large table saw, and the inverter just shut off, even though the >> "in rush current" was within the theoretical inverter capacity.  >> Actual Wrench list testimonials are much more valuable than those >> arcane specs. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>> Hey There Wrenches, >>> >>> So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will >>> NOT double the surge ratings of a single SW. >>> >>> But that brings me to my second question: >>> >>> What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at >>> maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms?  100ms?  1 sec? >>> >>> Yourengineering wisdom welcomed! >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: >>> >>>> Thanks for the tip!  I'll check the firmware. >>>> >>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: >>>> >>>>> Hi Jeff, >>>>> >>>>> I am not going to guess if this will work, it should.  I use XW's >>>>> because they start anything I have come across. >>>>> >>>>> If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same >>>>> firmware. There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their >>>>> development. >>>>> >>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hey Esteemed Wrenches, >>>>>> >>>>>> So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) >>>>>> Schneider SW for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. >>>>>> >>>>>> But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is >>>>>> only rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a >>>>>> whopping kick - probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor >>>>>> rating. >>>>>> >>>>>> The SW has the following surge capability: >>>>>> >>>>>> SW 4048 Rated@ 240 Volts: >>>>>> Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts >>>>>> 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts >>>>>> 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts >>>>>> Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts >>>>>> >>>>>> Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? >>>>>> >>>>>> Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>> >>>>>> Jeff >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jul 26 09:20:05 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 06:20:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?100ms_for_Locked_Rotor_Amps=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55ae03bf85b5920bf2fc1cc9ca43e6da@127.0.0.1> The CSW is for a small cabin. Anyone living offgrid with normal loads should use an XW and they will not have to deal with any of this. It has been that way since 2006. On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 22:17:13 -0700, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Some time back, (years) l did a off grid system for a customer that was building his home, he was milli g lumber from the home site, l quoted a Outback PS-4 3648, the customer already had a very large battery bank 2000 amp hrs. at 48 DC nominal. Anyway he had a well on a 5 hp. freq drive and a very big tall 6" bandsaw, trace/Schneider said no way could there stack do the job and it was larger. Outback on the other had said no problem and for years after that PS-4 ran the well, the saws and now the finished home. It is interesting that Schneider was not willing to do what Outback could, they must have something in there root programming preventing the stacked surge. Some like Chevrolet, some like Ford, l have done rows of Radians and lm sure some out there have the same with other manufacturers. It's all good data for all of us. Jerry On Thu, Jul 25, 2019, 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey There Wrenches, So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will NOT double the surge ratings of a single SW. But that brings me to my second question: What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms? 100ms? 1 sec? Your engineering wisdom welcomed! Thanks, Jeff Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: Thanks for the tip! I'll check the firmware. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: Hi Jeff, I am not going to guess if this will work, it should. I use XW's because they start anything I have come across. If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same firmware. There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their development. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [3] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater [4] wrote: Hey Esteemed Wrenches, So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider SW for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is only rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping kick - probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. The SW has the following surge capability: SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts: Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? Thanks! Jeff -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [6] text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] List rules ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [17] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [18] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] mailto:jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] mailto:jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com [5] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [18] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Jul 26 09:11:05 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 09:11:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase and Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57bb2f9a-1477-9bf6-fd5a-3e3c44995257@entech-engineering.com> Most people I have communicated with say the Tesla battery solution is extremely hard to obtain, and there are other options out there.  Tesla never responded to any of my inquiries. Does Enphase even have a battery option that they sell?   My vendor says no, yet that seem to surprise the Enphase Technical Support people. I forwarded to them the vendor email regarding this, and Enphase has not responded.   I have four projects that have asked me to look at a battery solution.  Chris On 7/25/2019 2:49 PM, August Goers wrote: > No, we haven't done any zero export. I guess both the Powerwall and > Enphase systems would need to be independently programmed for zero > export? I should add a caveat - all of our IQ7 systems have been the > SunPower branded Equinox type, not Enphase. The main difference being > that Enphase would use their envoy box and SunPower uses the PV > Supervisor 6. > > August > > > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 10:53 AM Marco Mangelsdorf > > wrote: > > Sounds encouraging, August. Mahalo. > > Are any of those systems zero export by any chance? > > marco > > On Thursday, July 25, 2019, August Goers > wrote: > > Hi Marco - We have dozens of systems with this combo, so far > no problem. Tesla's AC coupling mechanism in general seems to > be very robust - we've paired them with many inverter types > and brands, and they always seem to couple up during our > grid-off tests. Since the vast majority of our systems are > grid tied, the real test will be how they will work over the > long haul if we have major grid outages - who knows if and > when that might happen. I've been in PG&E territory in the Bay > Area for about 15 years and can only recall one or two short > (less than one hour) power outages. > > > August > > > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 7:58 AM Marco Mangelsdorf > > wrote: > > Aloha, > > I’m thinking about combining the Enphase IQ 7 micros with > a Tesla Powerwall or two. > > Anyone out there try this?  With bueno or not so bueno > results? > > Mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Thu Jul 25 23:22:35 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 20:22:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase and Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9994f576-3198-e843-0615-07d3cf1c2b03@berkeleysolar.com> Uh, Looking at what is happening with Tesla's share price, I am not sure I would want to be "investing" in the products of the neglected solar division. With Elon alone at the wheel , the Powerwall et. al. might go the way of the Dodo before too long. I have been working lately with folks who have moved on from the vestiges of SolarCity. They don't seem to be very impressed with what is happening there, at  least not enough to stick around while the division molders under the jaundice eye of the visionaries. On 7/25/2019 11:49 AM, August Goers wrote: > No, we haven't done any zero export. I guess both the Powerwall and > Enphase systems would need to be independently programmed for zero > export? I should add a caveat - all of our IQ7 systems have been the > SunPower branded Equinox type, not Enphase. The main difference being > that Enphase would use their envoy box and SunPower uses the PV > Supervisor 6. > > August > > > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 10:53 AM Marco Mangelsdorf > > wrote: > > Sounds encouraging, August. Mahalo. > > Are any of those systems zero export by any chance? > > marco > > On Thursday, July 25, 2019, August Goers > wrote: > > Hi Marco - We have dozens of systems with this combo, so far > no problem. Tesla's AC coupling mechanism in general seems to > be very robust - we've paired them with many inverter types > and brands, and they always seem to couple up during our > grid-off tests. Since the vast majority of our systems are > grid tied, the real test will be how they will work over the > long haul if we have major grid outages - who knows if and > when that might happen. I've been in PG&E territory in the Bay > Area for about 15 years and can only recall one or two short > (less than one hour) power outages. > > > August > > > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 7:58 AM Marco Mangelsdorf > > wrote: > > Aloha, > > I’m thinking about combining the Enphase IQ 7 micros with > a Tesla Powerwall or two. > > Anyone out there try this?  With bueno or not so bueno > results? > > Mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Fri Jul 26 10:31:27 2019 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 10:31:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase and Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: <57bb2f9a-1477-9bf6-fd5a-3e3c44995257@entech-engineering.com> References: <57bb2f9a-1477-9bf6-fd5a-3e3c44995257@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: I think they're only selling the Enphase AC battery in Australia currently but from what I understand they're phasing that product out in favor of the Ensemble (IQ8) battery system that is schedule to come out later in the year. You can get info about it on their website if you search Ensemble. It looks more like the LG RESU but it's AC and has multiple microinverters in it. Thanks, Will -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 10:27 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > Most people I have communicated with say the Tesla battery solution is > extremely hard to obtain, and there are other options out there. Tesla > never responded to any of my inquiries. > > Does Enphase even have a battery option that they sell? My vendor says > no, yet that seem to surprise the Enphase Technical Support people. I > forwarded to them the vendor email regarding this, and Enphase has not > responded. I have four projects that have asked me to look at a battery > solution. Chris > On 7/25/2019 2:49 PM, August Goers wrote: > > No, we haven't done any zero export. I guess both the Powerwall and > Enphase systems would need to be independently programmed for zero export? > I should add a caveat - all of our IQ7 systems have been the SunPower > branded Equinox type, not Enphase. The main difference being that Enphase > would use their envoy box and SunPower uses the PV Supervisor 6. > > August > > > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 10:53 AM Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > >> Sounds encouraging, August. Mahalo. >> >> Are any of those systems zero export by any chance? >> >> marco >> >> On Thursday, July 25, 2019, August Goers wrote: >> >>> Hi Marco - We have dozens of systems with this combo, so far no problem. >>> Tesla's AC coupling mechanism in general seems to be very robust - we've >>> paired them with many inverter types and brands, and they always seem to >>> couple up during our grid-off tests. Since the vast majority of our systems >>> are grid tied, the real test will be how they will work over the long haul >>> if we have major grid outages - who knows if and when that might happen. >>> I've been in PG&E territory in the Bay Area for about 15 years and can only >>> recall one or two short (less than one hour) power outages. >>> >>> >>> August >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 7:58 AM Marco Mangelsdorf >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Aloha, >>>> >>>> I’m thinking about combining the Enphase IQ 7 micros with a Tesla >>>> Powerwall or two. >>>> >>>> Anyone out there try this? With bueno or not so bueno results? >>>> >>>> Mahalo, >>>> marco >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 10:41:59 2019 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 10:41:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase and Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: <57bb2f9a-1477-9bf6-fd5a-3e3c44995257@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Enphase will release a new off-grid battery in December that will be half the price of the current battery, don't buy anything from them before then. Look at Pika Energy. We are installers and they just got acquired by Generac, we're Generac dealers also so it comes under one roof for us. The Pika product line is well thought out, DC coupled, does Zero Export very nicely and uses Panasonic batteries. It's easy to expand from two to six batteries, They have an interface to Generac RXS transfer switches which lowers the cost of transfering. Looks like a mature product line. If you have the ability to export to the grid, Sonnen makes a good product which we have installed, uses Sony batteries which are bulletproof. We have achieved Zero Export with a Solar-log 1200. On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 10:34 AM Will White wrote: > I think they're only selling the Enphase AC battery in Australia currently > but from what I understand they're phasing that product out in favor of the > Ensemble (IQ8) battery system that is schedule to come out later in the > year. You can get info about it on their website if you search Ensemble. It > looks more like the LG RESU but it's AC and has multiple microinverters in > it. > > Thanks, > Will > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power > the world with renewable energy.* > > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 10:27 AM Christopher Warfel < > cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > >> Most people I have communicated with say the Tesla battery solution is >> extremely hard to obtain, and there are other options out there. Tesla >> never responded to any of my inquiries. >> >> Does Enphase even have a battery option that they sell? My vendor says >> no, yet that seem to surprise the Enphase Technical Support people. I >> forwarded to them the vendor email regarding this, and Enphase has not >> responded. I have four projects that have asked me to look at a battery >> solution. Chris >> On 7/25/2019 2:49 PM, August Goers wrote: >> >> No, we haven't done any zero export. I guess both the Powerwall and >> Enphase systems would need to be independently programmed for zero export? >> I should add a caveat - all of our IQ7 systems have been the SunPower >> branded Equinox type, not Enphase. The main difference being that Enphase >> would use their envoy box and SunPower uses the PV Supervisor 6. >> >> August >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 10:53 AM Marco Mangelsdorf >> wrote: >> >>> Sounds encouraging, August. Mahalo. >>> >>> Are any of those systems zero export by any chance? >>> >>> marco >>> >>> On Thursday, July 25, 2019, August Goers wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Marco - We have dozens of systems with this combo, so far no >>>> problem. Tesla's AC coupling mechanism in general seems to be very robust - >>>> we've paired them with many inverter types and brands, and they always seem >>>> to couple up during our grid-off tests. Since the vast majority of our >>>> systems are grid tied, the real test will be how they will work over the >>>> long haul if we have major grid outages - who knows if and when that might >>>> happen. I've been in PG&E territory in the Bay Area for about 15 years and >>>> can only recall one or two short (less than one hour) power outages. >>>> >>>> >>>> August >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 7:58 AM Marco Mangelsdorf >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Aloha, >>>>> >>>>> I’m thinking about combining the Enphase IQ 7 micros with a Tesla >>>>> Powerwall or two. >>>>> >>>>> Anyone out there try this? With bueno or not so bueno results? >>>>> >>>>> Mahalo, >>>>> marco >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power > the world with renewable energy.* > > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Jul 26 11:33:45 2019 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 09:33:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? In-Reply-To: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <002f01d543c7$846608d0$8d321a70$@solarwork.com> Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+ years, in spite of doing load evaluations & others installing what ever they normally used. It has been a great rescue device. Well pump, 2 dish washers, booster pump, etc. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? Hey Wrenches, Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and sewage pumps to lower the surge for off-grid inverters? The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA Omnivore Grinder Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac. Thanks! Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM: Thanks Ray and Jerry, Great to hear from you both with your years of combined experience :) So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a trusty Radian - even then from what you are saying it may not work. And you are right Ray - Outback is careful to rate the "overload capability" in KVA rather than KW due most likely to voltage sag of course. So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 second (50 A) might not start - especially with other loads on the system? RADIAN SURGE RATINGS: Maximum Output Current 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC Overload Capability 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa 5 seconds 12 kVa 30 minute 9 kVa Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump motors on a Radian? Thanks! Jeff Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get an idea what an inverter can really do in the real world. All those millisecond ratings/ in rush current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and will basically just get you into trouble. The reason they have those ratings in amps and not watts, is that the voltage craters during that 100mS surge. I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump, compressor, or large table saw, and the inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush current" was within the theoretical inverter capacity. Actual Wrench list testimonials are much more valuable than those arcane specs. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey There Wrenches, So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will NOT double the surge ratings of a single SW. But that brings me to my second question: What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms? 100ms? 1 sec? Your engineering wisdom welcomed! Thanks, Jeff Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: Thanks for the tip! I'll check the firmware. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: Hi Jeff, I am not going to guess if this will work, it should. I use XW's because they start anything I have come across. If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same firmware. There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their development. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Esteemed Wrenches, So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider SW for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is only rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping kick - probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. The SW has the following surge capability: SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts: Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? Thanks! Jeff -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Fri Jul 26 12:27:34 2019 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 10:27:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? In-Reply-To: <002f01d543c7$846608d0$8d321a70$@solarwork.com> References: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> <002f01d543c7$846608d0$8d321a70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <01d801d543cf$08620330$19260990$@OasisMontana.com> Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC soft start pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and #3AS30 Aquavar Solo controller); it’s been running off of my 2011 Radian GS8048 since 2016, when I had to drill a new well (the water table is dropping) and pump from about 300 ft. depth. I have 3500 ft. of drip irrigation, a big garden and the usual domestic water loads. It’s worked flawlessly since its inception, and I cannot speak more highly of Goulds pumps. My first one lasted 23 years (it was a 1.5HP model). Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM To: 'Jeff Clearwater' ; 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+ years, in spite of doing load evaluations & others installing what ever they normally used. It has been a great rescue device. Well pump, 2 dish washers, booster pump, etc. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? Hey Wrenches, Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and sewage pumps to lower the surge for off-grid inverters? The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA Omnivore Grinder Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac. Thanks! Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM: Thanks Ray and Jerry, Great to hear from you both with your years of combined experience :) So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a trusty Radian - even then from what you are saying it may not work. And you are right Ray - Outback is careful to rate the "overload capability" in KVA rather than KW due most likely to voltage sag of course. So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 second (50 A) might not start - especially with other loads on the system? RADIAN SURGE RATINGS: Maximum Output Current 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC Overload Capability 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa 5 seconds 12 kVa 30 minute 9 kVa Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump motors on a Radian? Thanks! Jeff Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get an idea what an inverter can really do in the real world. All those millisecond ratings/ in rush current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and will basically just get you into trouble. The reason they have those ratings in amps and not watts, is that the voltage craters during that 100mS surge. I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump, compressor, or large table saw, and the inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush current" was within the theoretical inverter capacity. Actual Wrench list testimonials are much more valuable than those arcane specs. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey There Wrenches, So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will NOT double the surge ratings of a single SW. But that brings me to my second question: What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms? 100ms? 1 sec? Your engineering wisdom welcomed! Thanks, Jeff Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: Thanks for the tip! I'll check the firmware. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: Hi Jeff, I am not going to guess if this will work, it should. I use XW's because they start anything I have come across. If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same firmware. There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their development. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Esteemed Wrenches, So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider SW for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is only rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping kick - probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. The SW has the following surge capability: SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts: Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? Thanks! Jeff -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Jul 26 13:18:56 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 11:18:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 100ms for Locked Rotor Amps? In-Reply-To: <901272ea-1752-e1eb-d6bd-a968f5d1bfd7@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <43f52ddf-b3f2-87b6-df21-b7bc31fec861@solarray.com> <901272ea-1752-e1eb-d6bd-a968f5d1bfd7@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <77bd1c5f-0660-a646-7234-d2b249cc2432@solarray.com> I've run a 3 Hp pump on a pair of VFX 3648s, but then the 2nd issue was DC voltage sag from the batteries.  We had a string of Rolls 5000s that could not keep the voltage high enough below 70% SOC.  Be sure to have plenty of battery behind this system.  Also you might look into the soft start controllers,  I've used some from Franklin that were a cheaper option than a bigger inverter. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/26/19 7:32 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Thanks Ray and Jerry, > > Great to hear from you both with your years of combined experience :) > > So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a trusty Radian - > even then from what you are saying it may not work. > > And you are right Ray -  Outback is careful to rate the "overload > capability" in KVA rather than KW due most likely to voltage sag of > course. > > So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 second (50 A) > might not start - especially with other loads on the system? > > RADIAN SURGE RATINGS: > > Maximum Output Current > 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC > 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC > > Overload Capability > 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa > 5 seconds 12 kVa > 30 minute 9 kVa > > Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump motors on a Radian? > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > > Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: > >> I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get an idea what >> an inverter can really do in the real world.  All those millisecond >> ratings/ in rush current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and >> will basically just get you into trouble.  The reason they have those >> ratings in amps and not watts, is that the voltage craters during >> that 100mS surge. >> >> I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump, compressor, >> or large table saw, and the inverter just shut off, even though the >> "in rush current" was within the theoretical inverter capacity.  >> Actual Wrench list testimonials are much more valuable than those >> arcane specs. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>> Hey There Wrenches, >>> >>> So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will >>> NOT double the surge ratings of a single SW. >>> >>> But that brings me to my second question: >>> >>> What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at >>> maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms?  100ms?  1 sec? >>> >>> Yourengineering wisdom welcomed! >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: >>> >>>> Thanks for the tip!  I'll check the firmware. >>>> >>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: >>>> >>>>> Hi Jeff, >>>>> >>>>> I am not going to guess if this will work, it should. I use XW's >>>>> because they start anything I have come across. >>>>> >>>>> If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same >>>>> firmware. There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their >>>>> development. >>>>> >>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hey Esteemed Wrenches, >>>>>> >>>>>> So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) >>>>>> Schneider SW for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. >>>>>> >>>>>> But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is >>>>>> only rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a >>>>>> whopping kick - probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor >>>>>> rating. >>>>>> >>>>>> The SW has the following surge capability: >>>>>> >>>>>> SW 4048 Rated@ 240 Volts: >>>>>> Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts >>>>>> 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts >>>>>> 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts >>>>>> Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts >>>>>> >>>>>> Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? >>>>>> >>>>>> Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>> >>>>>> Jeff >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Jul 26 13:41:29 2019 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 12:41:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k Message-ID: Wrenches Any guidance on getting warranty claim approved when their denial reason is the generic “unsafe” installation? There isn’t anything unsafe about the 1.5 year install that I can see. The ECOGEN is connected to an Outback Radian. Generator has 950 hours on it before the brushes melted down from being exposed to engine oil. Thank you, Maverick From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Jul 26 15:47:38 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 12:47:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? In-Reply-To: <01d801d543cf$08620330$19260990$@OasisMontana.com> References: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> <002f01d543c7$846608d0$8d321a70$@solarwork.com> <01d801d543cf$08620330$19260990$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <25550da7-8691-7dcf-fec8-554dcc4ea709@villagepowerdesign.com> Thanks Chris! Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an integrated control - motor combo that can soft start like Franklin did - the majority of single phase motors can't use soft start.  That is probably a 3-phase motor in that pump that they have an inverter for in the controls - or they used a shaded pole or spit capacitor single phase motor which can use soft start - at least that is what my initial research and phone call to the pump control company has thus far revealed. Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs when you have the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single phase doesn't allow you much room to wiggle. I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still researching but that's my initial findings. Anyone know differently? Thanks! Jeff chris at OasisMontana.com wrote on 7/26/19 9:27 AM: > Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC soft start > pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and #3AS30 Aquavar Solo > controller); it’s been running off of my 2011 Radian GS8048 since > 2016, when I had to drill a new well (the water table is dropping) and > pump from about 300 ft. depth.I have 3500 ft. of drip irrigation, a > big garden and the usual domestic water loads.It’s worked flawlessly > since its inception, and I cannot speak more highly of Goulds pumps.My > first one lasted 23 years (it was a 1.5HP model). > > Best, > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > *From:*RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Dana > *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM > *To:* 'Jeff Clearwater' ; 'RE-wrenches' > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? > > Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+ years, in > spite of doing load evaluations & others installing what ever they > normally used. It has been a great rescue device. Well pump, 2 dish > washers, booster pump, etc. > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:*RE-wrenches > *On Behalf Of > *Jeff Clearwater > *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? > > Hey Wrenches, > > Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and sewage pumps > to lower the surge for off-grid inverters? > > The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA Omnivore > Grinder Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac. > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM: > > *Thanks Ray and Jerry, > > Great to hear from you both with your years of combined experience :)* > > *So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a trusty > Radian - _even then from what you are saying it may not work._* > > And you are right Ray -  Outback is careful to rate the "overload > capability" in KVA rather than KW due most likely to voltage sag > of course. > > *So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 second (50 > A) might not start - especially with other loads on the system?* > > *RADIAN SURGE RATINGS:* > > *Maximum Output Current* > 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC > 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC > > *Overload Capability* > 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa > 5 seconds 12 kVa > 30 minute 9 kVa > > *Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump motors on a > Radian? > > Thanks! > > Jeff* > > > Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: > > I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get an > idea what an inverter can really do in the real world.  All > those millisecond ratings/ in rush current specs won't get a > pump or motor started, and will basically just get you into > trouble. The reason they have those ratings in amps and not > watts, is that the voltage craters during that 100mS surge. > > I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump, > compressor, or large table saw, and the inverter just shut > off, even though the "in rush current" was within the > theoretical inverter capacity.  Actual Wrench list > testimonials are much more valuable than those arcane specs. > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > *Hey There Wrenches,* > > So be advised that after a little research the SW dual > stack will NOT double the surge ratings of a single SW. > > But that brings me to my second question: > * > What inverter surge rating should one refer to when > looking at maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms?  100ms?  1 sec?* > > *Your engineering wisdom welcomed!* > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > > > Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: > > Thanks for the tip!  I'll check the firmware. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: > > Hi Jeff, > > I am not going to guess if this will work, it > should.  I use XW's because they start anything I > have come across. > > If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest > and same firmware. There were problems with > stacked SW's early on in their development. > > **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar** > > **"we go where powerlines don't"** > > **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/** > > **e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > ** > > **text 209 813 0060** > > On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff > Clearwater > wrote: > > Hey Esteemed Wrenches, > > So I recently built a power trailer with a > single 4 KW (4048) Schneider SW for a client > with a moderate cabin lifestyle. > > But he lives on a high hill and even though > his 2 HP Macerator is only rated at 15 amps > continuous that baby starts up with a whopping > kick - probably close to or at it's 53 Amps > Locked Rotor rating. > > *The SW has the following surge capability:* > > *SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts:* > Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts > 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts > 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts > Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts > > Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will > start this baby? > > *Any experience with similar macerators - or > simply educated guesses? > * > Thanks! > > Jeff > > -- > > **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar** > > **"we go where powerlines don't"** > > **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/** > > **e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > ** > > **text 209 813 0060** > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 15:59:07 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 12:59:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? In-Reply-To: <25550da7-8691-7dcf-fec8-554dcc4ea709@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> <002f01d543c7$846608d0$8d321a70$@solarwork.com> <01d801d543cf$08620330$19260990$@OasisMontana.com> <25550da7-8691-7dcf-fec8-554dcc4ea709@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Wrenches I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller came from ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a AC chiller grid connected not off grid but the controller works either way Jerry On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Thanks Chris! > > Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an integrated control - > motor combo that can soft start like Franklin did - the majority of single > phase motors can't use soft start. That is probably a 3-phase motor in > that pump that they have an inverter for in the controls - or they used a > shaded pole or spit capacitor single phase motor which can use soft start - > at least that is what my initial research and phone call to the pump > control company has thus far revealed. > > Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs when you have > the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single phase doesn't allow you much > room to wiggle. > > I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still researching but > that's my initial findings. > > Anyone know differently? > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > > > chris at OasisMontana.com wrote on 7/26/19 9:27 AM: > > Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC soft start > pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and #3AS30 Aquavar Solo > controller); it’s been running off of my 2011 Radian GS8048 since 2016, > when I had to drill a new well (the water table is dropping) and pump from > about 300 ft. depth. I have 3500 ft. of drip irrigation, a big garden > and the usual domestic water loads. It’s worked flawlessly since its > inception, and I cannot speak more highly of Goulds pumps. My first one > lasted 23 years (it was a 1.5HP model). > > > > Best, > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf Of *Dana > *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM > *To:* 'Jeff Clearwater' > ; 'RE-wrenches' > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? > > > > Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+ years, in spite > of doing load evaluations & others installing what ever they normally used. > It has been a great rescue device. Well pump, 2 dish washers, booster pump, > etc. > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater > *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? > > > > Hey Wrenches, > > Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and sewage pumps to > lower the surge for off-grid inverters? > > The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA Omnivore Grinder > Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac. > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM: > > > > *Thanks Ray and Jerry,Great to hear from you both with your years of > combined experience :)* > > *So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a trusty Radian - > even then from what you are saying it may not work.* > > And you are right Ray - Outback is careful to rate the "overload > capability" in KVA rather than KW due most likely to voltage sag of course. > > *So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 second (50 A) might > not start - especially with other loads on the system?* > > *RADIAN SURGE RATINGS:* > > *Maximum Output Current* > 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC > 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC > > *Overload Capability* > 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa > 5 seconds 12 kVa > 30 minute 9 kVa > > > > > > *Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump motors on a > Radian?Thanks!Jeff* > > > Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: > > I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get an idea what an > inverter can really do in the real world. All those millisecond ratings/ > in rush current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and will basically > just get you into trouble. The reason they have those ratings in amps and > not watts, is that the voltage craters during that 100mS surge. > > I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump, compressor, or > large table saw, and the inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush > current" was within the theoretical inverter capacity. Actual Wrench list > testimonials are much more valuable than those arcane specs. > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > *Hey There Wrenches,* > > So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will NOT > double the surge ratings of a single SW. > > But that brings me to my second question: > > *What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at maximum > Inrush or LRA - 1ms? 100ms? 1 sec?* > > *Your engineering wisdom welcomed!* > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > > > Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: > > Thanks for the tip! I'll check the firmware. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: > > Hi Jeff, > > > > I am not going to guess if this will work, it should. I use XW's because > they start anything I have come across. > > If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same firmware. > There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their development. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > > Hey Esteemed Wrenches, > > So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider SW > for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. > > But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is only > rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping kick - > probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. > > *The SW has the following surge capability:* > > *SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts:* > Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts > 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts > 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts > Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts > > Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? > > > *Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses?* > Thanks! > > Jeff > > -- > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20190219_135829.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2468604 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Fri Jul 26 12:42:33 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 06:42:33 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase and Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: <9994f576-3198-e843-0615-07d3cf1c2b03@berkeleysolar.com> References: <9994f576-3198-e843-0615-07d3cf1c2b03@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: There are, and always will be, observations to be made about that company and its founders. The reality of the Powerwall (along with the accompanying Gateway) is that it's without a doubt a cutting edge product and has NO peer at present in terms of what it provides to the homeowner. Not only am I a Tesla certified installer, I also installed one on my legacy NEM system at home two years ago and it has worked flawlessly. (And that doesn't even include the coolness factor of the app.) And lest anyone among this esteemed Wrenches group believe that I'm some shill for Tesla, I've been in the solar field for 41 years and do not tend to hyperbole or BS. marco On Thursday, July 25, 2019, Mark Frye wrote: > Uh, Looking at what is happening with Tesla's share price, I am not sure I > would want to be "investing" in the products of the neglected solar > division. With Elon alone at the wheel , the Powerwall et. al. might go the > way of the Dodo before too long. > > I have been working lately with folks who have moved on from the vestiges > of SolarCity. They don't seem to be very impressed with what is happening > there, at least not enough to stick around while the division molders > under the jaundice eye of the visionaries. > > > On 7/25/2019 11:49 AM, August Goers wrote: > > No, we haven't done any zero export. I guess both the Powerwall and > Enphase systems would need to be independently programmed for zero export? > I should add a caveat - all of our IQ7 systems have been the SunPower > branded Equinox type, not Enphase. The main difference being that Enphase > would use their envoy box and SunPower uses the PV Supervisor 6. > > August > > > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 10:53 AM Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > >> Sounds encouraging, August. Mahalo. >> >> Are any of those systems zero export by any chance? >> >> marco >> >> On Thursday, July 25, 2019, August Goers wrote: >> >>> Hi Marco - We have dozens of systems with this combo, so far no problem. >>> Tesla's AC coupling mechanism in general seems to be very robust - we've >>> paired them with many inverter types and brands, and they always seem to >>> couple up during our grid-off tests. Since the vast majority of our systems >>> are grid tied, the real test will be how they will work over the long haul >>> if we have major grid outages - who knows if and when that might happen. >>> I've been in PG&E territory in the Bay Area for about 15 years and can only >>> recall one or two short (less than one hour) power outages. >>> >>> >>> August >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 7:58 AM Marco Mangelsdorf >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Aloha, >>>> >>>> I’m thinking about combining the Enphase IQ 7 micros with a Tesla >>>> Powerwall or two. >>>> >>>> Anyone out there try this? With bueno or not so bueno results? >>>> >>>> Mahalo, >>>> marco >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/ >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Jul 26 16:15:39 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 13:15:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? In-Reply-To: References: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> <002f01d543c7$846608d0$8d321a70$@solarwork.com> <01d801d543cf$08620330$19260990$@OasisMontana.com> <25550da7-8691-7dcf-fec8-554dcc4ea709@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <4ba9b55a-1e9e-6e09-220a-10e0051aa322@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey Jerry, I think the issue is capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs.  but there are other approaches to soft start - still learning.  Thanks for the reference! Best, Jeff Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM: > Wrenches > I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller came > from ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a AC chiller > grid connected not off grid but the controller works either way > Jerry > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater > > > wrote: > > Thanks Chris! > > Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an integrated > control - motor combo that can soft start like Franklin did - the > majority of single phase motors can't use soft start.  That is > probably a 3-phase motor in that pump that they have an inverter > for in the controls - or they used a shaded pole or spit capacitor > single phase motor which can use soft start - at least that is > what my initial research and phone call to the pump control > company has thus far revealed. > > Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs when > you have the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single phase doesn't > allow you much room to wiggle. > > I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still > researching but that's my initial findings. > > Anyone know differently? > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > > > chris at OasisMontana.com wrote on > 7/26/19 9:27 AM: > >> Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC soft >> start pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and #3AS30 Aquavar >> Solo controller); it’s been running off of my 2011 Radian GS8048 >> since 2016, when I had to drill a new well (the water table is >> dropping) and pump from about 300 ft. depth.I have 3500 ft. of >> drip irrigation, a big garden and the usual domestic water >> loads.It’s worked flawlessly since its inception, and I cannot >> speak more highly of Goulds pumps.My first one lasted 23 years >> (it was a 1.5HP model). >> >> Best, >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >> >> 406-777-4309 fax >> >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches >> *On Behalf Of >> *Dana >> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM >> *To:* 'Jeff Clearwater' >> ; 'RE-wrenches' >> >> >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and >> Sewage Pumps? >> >> Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+ years, >> in spite of doing load evaluations & others installing what ever >> they normally used. It has been a great rescue device. Well pump, >> 2 dish washers, booster pump, etc. >> >> Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com * >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >> >> _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _ >> >> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches > > *On Behalf Of >> *Jeff Clearwater >> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches > > >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage >> Pumps? >> >> Hey Wrenches, >> >> Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and sewage >> pumps to lower the surge for off-grid inverters? >> >> The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA Omnivore >> Grinder Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Jeff >> >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> >> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM: >> >> *Thanks Ray and Jerry, >> >> Great to hear from you both with your years of combined >> experience :)* >> >> *So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a >> trusty Radian - _even then from what you are saying it may >> not work._* >> >> And you are right Ray -  Outback is careful to rate the >> "overload capability" in KVA rather than KW due most likely >> to voltage sag of course. >> >> *So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 second >> (50 A) might not start - especially with other loads on the >> system?* >> >> *RADIAN SURGE RATINGS:* >> >> *Maximum Output Current* >> 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC >> 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC >> >> *Overload Capability* >> 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa >> 5 seconds 12 kVa >> 30 minute 9 kVa >> >> *Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump motors >> on a Radian? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Jeff* >> >> >> Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: >> >> I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get >> an idea what an inverter can really do in the real >> world.  All those millisecond ratings/ in rush current >> specs won't get a pump or motor started, and will >> basically just get you into trouble. The reason they have >> those ratings in amps and not watts, is that the voltage >> craters during that 100mS surge. >> >> I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump, >> compressor, or large table saw, and the inverter just >> shut off, even though the "in rush current" was within >> the theoretical inverter capacity.  Actual Wrench list >> testimonials are much more valuable than those arcane specs. >> >> Ray Walters >> >> Remote Solar >> >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >> >> *Hey There Wrenches,* >> >> So be advised that after a little research the SW >> dual stack will NOT double the surge ratings of a >> single SW. >> >> But that brings me to my second question: >> * >> What inverter surge rating should one refer to when >> looking at maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms?  100ms?  1 sec?* >> >> *Your engineering wisdom welcomed!* >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: >> >> Thanks for the tip!  I'll check the firmware. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: >> >> Hi Jeff, >> >> I am not going to guess if this will work, it >> should.  I use XW's because they start >> anything I have come across. >> >> If you do this, make sure but SW's have the >> latest and same firmware. There were problems >> with stacked SW's early on in their development. >> >> **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar** >> >> **"we go where powerlines don't"** >> >> **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/** >> >> **e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> ** >> >> **text 209 813 0060** >> >> On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff >> Clearwater >> wrote: >> >> Hey Esteemed Wrenches, >> >> So I recently built a power trailer with >> a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider SW for a >> client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. >> >> But he lives on a high hill and even >> though his 2 HP Macerator is only rated >> at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up >> with a whopping kick - probably close to >> or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. >> >> *The SW has the following surge capability:* >> >> *SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts:* >> Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts >> 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts >> 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts >> Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts >> >> Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs >> will start this baby? >> >> *Any experience with similar macerators - >> or simply educated guesses? >> * >> Thanks! >> >> Jeff >> >> -- >> >> **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar** >> >> **"we go where powerlines don't"** >> >> **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/** >> >> **e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> ** >> >> **text 209 813 0060** >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Jul 26 17:42:35 2019 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:42:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008b01d543fb$0abcdf20$20369d60$@solarwork.com> Generwrecked strikes again! After 3 fires in the controllers & 2 more engine meltdowns due to oil loss I would not touch a wreck. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Maverick Brown Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 11:41 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k Wrenches Any guidance on getting warranty claim approved when their denial reason is the generic “unsafe” installation? There isn’t anything unsafe about the 1.5 year install that I can see. The ECOGEN is connected to an Outback Radian. Generator has 950 hours on it before the brushes melted down from being exposed to engine oil. Thank you, Maverick _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 17:59:06 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 14:59:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading In-Reply-To: <008b01d543fb$0abcdf20$20369d60$@solarwork.com> References: <008b01d543fb$0abcdf20$20369d60$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: HI All, I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? I can’t find any. RBI used to have one, it was really slick. Thanks jay peltz power From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 20:03:23 2019 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 20:03:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading In-Reply-To: References: <008b01d543fb$0abcdf20$20369d60$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Sketchup with Skelion On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:41 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? > I can’t find any. > > RBI used to have one, it was really slick. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Jul 26 21:15:29 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 19:15:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading In-Reply-To: References: <008b01d543fb$0abcdf20$20369d60$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <57c2976b-3582-555e-5883-3b40b9a5c928@solarray.com> Here's a cool row spacing sheet that the Wrenches' own William Miller provided us a few years back. He might have a newer version, but this should do what you need, I think. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/26/19 6:03 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > Sketchup with Skelion > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:41 PM jay > wrote: > > HI All, > > I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? > I can’t find any. > > RBI used to have one, it was really slick. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell  264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Interrow_spacing.xls Type: application/vnd.ms-excel Size: 28672 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jul 26 18:48:14 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:48:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading In-Reply-To: References: <008b01d543fb$0abcdf20$20369d60$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <8EDF4D46-DB4D-4508-AED1-AC874BA3314C@millersolar.com> Jay: I have a spreadsheet on our website that might do the trick. It gets complicated with non-flat ground and rows that are not due east-west. It’s been a long time since I used it but give it a try. MillerSolar.com, find resources tab. William > On Jul 26, 2019, at 2:59 PM, jay wrote: > > HI All, > > I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? > I can’t find any. > > RBI used to have one, it was really slick. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From Jason at hakaienergysolutions.com Sat Jul 27 17:43:04 2019 From: Jason at hakaienergysolutions.com (Jason Jackson) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2019 14:43:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k (Dana) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Same experience here in Canada. We installed two Ecogens last year, against our better judgement. Both were dead in under 12 months. One was rebuilt under warranty and promptly died again, no coverage in that case. Another was refused warranty as it has been used (sparingly) as prime power during construction, prior to being connected to the inverter system. No warranty if it's not connected to an inverter system on day 1! That model was promptly pulled from the market according to our local ASC, and has been replaced with something similar apparently. [image: hakaienergysolutions.com] Jason Jackson, Energy Systems Designer Ph: 888 604 3128 xt. 101 www.hakaienergy.ca On Sat, Jul 27, 2019 at 2:07 PM wrote: > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the > Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines > from the quoted message. > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k (Dana) > 2. solar inter row shading (jay) > 3. Re: solar inter row shading (Chris Mason) > 4. Re: solar inter row shading (Ray) > 5. Re: solar inter row shading (William Miller) > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Dana > To: "'RE-wrenches'" > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:42:35 -0600 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k > Generwrecked strikes again! After 3 fires in the controllers & 2 more > engine meltdowns due to oil loss I would not touch a wreck. > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Maverick Brown > Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 11:41 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k > > Wrenches > > Any guidance on getting warranty claim approved when their denial reason > is the generic “unsafe” installation? There isn’t anything unsafe about the > 1.5 year install that I can see. The ECOGEN is connected to an Outback > Radian. > > Generator has 950 hours on it before the brushes melted down from being > exposed to engine oil. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: jay > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 14:59:06 -0700 > Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading > HI All, > > I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? > I can’t find any. > > RBI used to have one, it was really slick. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Chris Mason > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 20:03:23 -0400 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading > Sketchup with Skelion > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:41 PM jay wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? >> I can’t find any. >> >> RBI used to have one, it was really slick. >> >> Thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Ray > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 19:15:29 -0600 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading > > Here's a cool row spacing sheet that the Wrenches' own William Miller > provided us a few years back. He might have a newer version, but this > should do what you need, I think. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/26/19 6:03 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > > Sketchup with Skelion > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:41 PM jay wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? >> I can’t find any. >> >> RBI used to have one, it was really slick. >> >> Thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: William Miller > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:48:14 -0700 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading > Jay: > > I have a spreadsheet on our website that might do the trick. It gets > complicated with non-flat ground and rows that are not due east-west. It’s > been a long time since I used it but give it a try. > > MillerSolar.com, find resources tab. > > William > > > On Jul 26, 2019, at 2:59 PM, jay wrote: > > > > HI All, > > > > I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? > > I can’t find any. > > > > RBI used to have one, it was really slick. > > > > Thanks > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Jul 27 18:08:13 2019 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2019 18:08:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k (Dana) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When you say it died, what was the problem? On Sat, Jul 27, 2019 at 5:43 PM Jason Jackson < Jason at hakaienergysolutions.com> wrote: > Same experience here in Canada. We installed two Ecogens last year, > against our better judgement. Both were dead in under 12 months. One was > rebuilt under warranty and promptly died again, no coverage in that case. > Another was refused warranty as it has been used (sparingly) as prime power > during construction, prior to being connected to the inverter system. No > warranty if it's not connected to an inverter system on day 1! That model > was promptly pulled from the market according to our local ASC, and has > been replaced with something similar apparently. > > [image: hakaienergysolutions.com] > > Jason Jackson, Energy Systems Designer > Ph: 888 604 3128 xt. 101 > www.hakaienergy.ca > > > > On Sat, Jul 27, 2019 at 2:07 PM > wrote: > >> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the >> Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines >> from the quoted message. >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k (Dana) >> 2. solar inter row shading (jay) >> 3. Re: solar inter row shading (Chris Mason) >> 4. Re: solar inter row shading (Ray) >> 5. Re: solar inter row shading (William Miller) >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Dana >> To: "'RE-wrenches'" >> Cc: >> Bcc: >> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:42:35 -0600 >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k >> Generwrecked strikes again! After 3 fires in the controllers & 2 more >> engine meltdowns due to oil loss I would not touch a wreck. >> >> >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>  Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf >> Of Maverick Brown >> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 11:41 AM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k >> >> Wrenches >> >> Any guidance on getting warranty claim approved when their denial reason >> is the generic “unsafe” installation? There isn’t anything unsafe about the >> 1.5 year install that I can see. The ECOGEN is connected to an Outback >> Radian. >> >> Generator has 950 hours on it before the brushes melted down from being >> exposed to engine oil. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: jay >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: >> Bcc: >> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 14:59:06 -0700 >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading >> HI All, >> >> I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? >> I can’t find any. >> >> RBI used to have one, it was really slick. >> >> Thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Chris Mason >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: >> Bcc: >> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 20:03:23 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading >> Sketchup with Skelion >> >> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:41 PM jay wrote: >> >>> HI All, >>> >>> I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? >>> I can’t find any. >>> >>> RBI used to have one, it was really slick. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> Solar systems designer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar >> Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 >> WhatsApp 264.235.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> www.cometsolar.com >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Ray >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Cc: >> Bcc: >> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 19:15:29 -0600 >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading >> >> Here's a cool row spacing sheet that the Wrenches' own William Miller >> provided us a few years back. He might have a newer version, but this >> should do what you need, I think. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 7/26/19 6:03 PM, Chris Mason wrote: >> >> Sketchup with Skelion >> >> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:41 PM jay wrote: >> >>> HI All, >>> >>> I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? >>> I can’t find any. >>> >>> RBI used to have one, it was really slick. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> Solar systems designer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar >> Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 >> WhatsApp 264.235.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> www.cometsolar.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: William Miller >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: >> Bcc: >> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:48:14 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading >> Jay: >> >> I have a spreadsheet on our website that might do the trick. It gets >> complicated with non-flat ground and rows that are not due east-west. It’s >> been a long time since I used it but give it a try. >> >> MillerSolar.com, find resources tab. >> >> William >> >> > On Jul 26, 2019, at 2:59 PM, jay wrote: >> > >> > HI All, >> > >> > I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? >> > I can’t find any. >> > >> > RBI used to have one, it was really slick. >> > >> > Thanks >> > >> > jay >> > >> > peltz power >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sat Jul 27 22:57:24 2019 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2019 21:57:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k (Dana) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60FC6735-F81E-4861-BF44-1B6CEF8A1B5B@mavericksolar.com> Mine died from brushes , I guess catching fire, and that was precipitated by an oil leak on the upper oil hose. The crimp-on fitting was allowing oil to bypass the clamp, spray on the engine and generator head. There is vent hole right on the top of generator head in a perfect place below the oil tube/air intake to breath in the oil and send it through the generator head. Just lovely. If yours is still working, I’ll send you a photo and a note to make a correction to the oil line. Thank you, Maverick > On Jul 27, 2019, at 5:08 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > > When you say it died, what was the problem? > >> On Sat, Jul 27, 2019 at 5:43 PM Jason Jackson wrote: >> Same experience here in Canada. We installed two Ecogens last year, against our better judgement. Both were dead in under 12 months. One was rebuilt under warranty and promptly died again, no coverage in that case. Another was refused warranty as it has been used (sparingly) as prime power during construction, prior to being connected to the inverter system. No warranty if it's not connected to an inverter system on day 1! That model was promptly pulled from the market according to our local ASC, and has been replaced with something similar apparently. >> >> >> Jason Jackson, Energy Systems Designer >> Ph: 888 604 3128 xt. 101 >> www.hakaienergy.ca >> >> >>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2019 at 2:07 PM wrote: >>> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >>> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k (Dana) >>> 2. solar inter row shading (jay) >>> 3. Re: solar inter row shading (Chris Mason) >>> 4. Re: solar inter row shading (Ray) >>> 5. Re: solar inter row shading (William Miller) >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Dana >>> To: "'RE-wrenches'" >>> Cc: >>> Bcc: >>> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:42:35 -0600 >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k >>> Generwrecked strikes again! After 3 fires in the controllers & 2 more engine meltdowns due to oil loss I would not touch a wreck. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >>> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>>  Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Maverick Brown >>> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 11:41 AM >>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k >>> >>> Wrenches >>> >>> Any guidance on getting warranty claim approved when their denial reason is the generic “unsafe” installation? There isn’t anything unsafe about the 1.5 year install that I can see. The ECOGEN is connected to an Outback Radian. >>> >>> Generator has 950 hours on it before the brushes melted down from being exposed to engine oil. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Maverick >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: jay >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Cc: >>> Bcc: >>> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 14:59:06 -0700 >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading >>> HI All, >>> >>> I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? >>> I can’t find any. >>> >>> RBI used to have one, it was really slick. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Chris Mason >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Cc: >>> Bcc: >>> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 20:03:23 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading >>> Sketchup with Skelion >>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:41 PM jay wrote: >>>> HI All, >>>> >>>> I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? >>>> I can’t find any. >>>> >>>> RBI used to have one, it was really slick. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> jay >>>> >>>> peltz power >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Chris Mason >>> Solar systems designer >>> Generac Generators Industrial technician >>> >>> Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar >>> Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 >>> WhatsApp 264.235.5670 >>> Skype: netconcepts >>> www.cometsolar.com >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Ray >>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Cc: >>> Bcc: >>> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 19:15:29 -0600 >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading >>> Here's a cool row spacing sheet that the Wrenches' own William Miller provided us a few years back. He might have a newer version, but this should do what you need, I think. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>>> On 7/26/19 6:03 PM, Chris Mason wrote: >>>> Sketchup with Skelion >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:41 PM jay wrote: >>>>> HI All, >>>>> >>>>> I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? >>>>> I can’t find any. >>>>> >>>>> RBI used to have one, it was really slick. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> jay >>>>> >>>>> peltz power >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Chris Mason >>>> Solar systems designer >>>> Generac Generators Industrial technician >>>> >>>> Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar >>>> Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 >>>> WhatsApp 264.235.5670 >>>> Skype: netconcepts >>>> www.cometsolar.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: William Miller >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Cc: >>> Bcc: >>> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:48:14 -0700 >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading >>> Jay: >>> >>> I have a spreadsheet on our website that might do the trick. It gets complicated with non-flat ground and rows that are not due east-west. It’s been a long time since I used it but give it a try. >>> >>> MillerSolar.com, find resources tab. >>> >>> William >>> >>> > On Jul 26, 2019, at 2:59 PM, jay wrote: >>> > >>> > HI All, >>> > >>> > I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? >>> > I can’t find any. >>> > >>> > RBI used to have one, it was really slick. >>> > >>> > Thanks >>> > >>> > jay >>> > >>> > peltz power >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Sun Jul 28 00:20:43 2019 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 00:20:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k (Dana) In-Reply-To: <60FC6735-F81E-4861-BF44-1B6CEF8A1B5B@mavericksolar.com> References: <60FC6735-F81E-4861-BF44-1B6CEF8A1B5B@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <5d3d229c.1c69fb81.14288.09e6@mx.google.com> I have a ECOGEN that ran well for a couple of years as originally setup. Then it began having problems with management of the extra oil reservoir (the engine would become flooded with oil and it would belch smoke). I gave up trying to repair that out of frustration and have been running it for the past two years with just the engine oil. I eliminated the extra oil res and it has not caused any problems since. I change the oil at 100 hours now rather than the 500 hour interval the original setup called for. Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Maverick Brown Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2019 10:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k (Dana) Mine died from brushes , I guess catching fire, and that was precipitated by an oil leak on the upper oil hose. The crimp-on fitting was allowing oil to bypass the clamp, spray on the engine and generator head. There is vent hole right on the top of generator head in a perfect place below the oil tube/air intake to breath in the oil and send it through the generator head. Just lovely.  If yours is still working, I’ll send you a photo and a note to make a correction to the oil line.  Thank you, Maverick On Jul 27, 2019, at 5:08 PM, Chris Mason wrote: When you say it died, what was the problem? On Sat, Jul 27, 2019 at 5:43 PM Jason Jackson wrote: Same experience here in Canada. We installed two Ecogens last year, against our better judgement.  Both were dead in under 12 months. One was rebuilt under warranty and promptly died again, no coverage in that case. Another was refused warranty as it has been used (sparingly) as prime power during construction, prior to being connected to the inverter system. No warranty if it's not connected to an inverter system on day 1! That model was promptly pulled from the market according to our local ASC, and has been replaced with something similar apparently.  Jason Jackson, Energy Systems Designer Ph: 888 604 3128 xt. 101  www.hakaienergy.ca On Sat, Jul 27, 2019 at 2:07 PM wrote: Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to         re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit         http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to         re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org You can reach the person managing the list at         re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message.  Today's Topics:    1. Re: Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k (Dana)    2. solar inter row shading (jay)    3. Re: solar inter row shading (Chris Mason)    4. Re: solar inter row shading (Ray)    5. Re: solar inter row shading (William Miller) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Dana To: "'RE-wrenches'" Cc:  Bcc:  Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:42:35 -0600 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k Generwrecked strikes again! After 3 fires in the controllers & 2 more engine meltdowns due to oil loss I would not touch a wreck. Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136                       www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  " Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Maverick Brown Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 11:41 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k Wrenches Any guidance on getting warranty claim approved when their denial reason is the generic “unsafe” installation? There isn’t anything unsafe about the 1.5 year install that I can see. The ECOGEN is connected to an Outback Radian. Generator has 950 hours on it before the brushes melted down from being exposed to engine oil. Thank you, Maverick _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: jay To: RE-wrenches Cc:  Bcc:  Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 14:59:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading HI All, I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? I can’t find any. RBI used to have one, it was really slick. Thanks jay peltz power ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Chris Mason To: RE-wrenches Cc:  Bcc:  Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 20:03:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading Sketchup with Skelion On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:41 PM jay wrote: HI All, I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? I can’t find any. RBI used to have one, it was really slick. Thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell  264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ray To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc:  Bcc:  Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 19:15:29 -0600 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading Here's a cool row spacing sheet that the Wrenches' own William Miller provided us a few years back. He might have a newer version, but this should do what you need, I think. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/26/19 6:03 PM, Chris Mason wrote: Sketchup with Skelion On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:41 PM jay wrote: HI All, I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? I can’t find any. RBI used to have one, it was really slick. Thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell  264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: William Miller To: RE-wrenches Cc:  Bcc:  Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:48:14 -0700 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading Jay: I have a spreadsheet on our website that might do the trick. It gets complicated with non-flat ground and rows that are not due east-west. It’s been a long time since I used it but give it a try. MillerSolar.com, find resources tab. William > On Jul 26, 2019, at 2:59 PM, jay wrote: > > HI All, > > I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? > I can’t find any. > > RBI used to have one, it was really slick. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell  264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sun Jul 28 08:41:09 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 08:41:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k In-Reply-To: <008b01d543fb$0abcdf20$20369d60$@solarwork.com> References: <008b01d543fb$0abcdf20$20369d60$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <0a442f96-556c-5a4b-b964-0bcd6b97f3df@entech-engineering.com> We will not use Ecogen. They don't know how to troubleshoot their own equipment, cannot connect it properly to solar systems, lie to their customers which comes back on us, and are generally a really bad company to deal with. There are far better and smarter ones out there.  At least that's how it is in southern RI.  Chris On 7/26/2019 5:42 PM, Dana wrote: > Generwrecked strikes again! After 3 fires in the controllers & 2 more engine meltdowns due to oil loss I would not touch a wreck. > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Maverick Brown > Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 11:41 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k > > Wrenches > > Any guidance on getting warranty claim approved when their denial reason is the generic “unsafe” installation? There isn’t anything unsafe about the 1.5 year install that I can see. The ECOGEN is connected to an Outback Radian. > > Generator has 950 hours on it before the brushes melted down from being exposed to engine oil. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Sun Jul 28 11:05:41 2019 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 11:05:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k (Dana) In-Reply-To: <60FC6735-F81E-4861-BF44-1B6CEF8A1B5B@mavericksolar.com> References: <60FC6735-F81E-4861-BF44-1B6CEF8A1B5B@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Maverick: I have a 15kW EcoGen. Please send the oil line correction. Thanks! Gary > On Jul 27, 2019, at 10:57 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: > > Mine died from brushes , I guess catching fire, and that was precipitated by an oil leak on the upper oil hose. The crimp-on fitting was allowing oil to bypass the clamp, spray on the engine and generator head. There is vent hole right on the top of generator head in a perfect place below the oil tube/air intake to breath in the oil and send it through the generator head. Just lovely. > > If yours is still working, I’ll send you a photo and a note to make a correction to the oil line. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > >> On Jul 27, 2019, at 5:08 PM, Chris Mason wrote: >> >> When you say it died, what was the problem? >> >>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2019 at 5:43 PM Jason Jackson wrote: >>> Same experience here in Canada. We installed two Ecogens last year, against our better judgement. Both were dead in under 12 months. One was rebuilt under warranty and promptly died again, no coverage in that case. Another was refused warranty as it has been used (sparingly) as prime power during construction, prior to being connected to the inverter system. No warranty if it's not connected to an inverter system on day 1! That model was promptly pulled from the market according to our local ASC, and has been replaced with something similar apparently. >>> >>> >>> Jason Jackson, Energy Systems Designer >>> Ph: 888 604 3128 xt. 101 >>> www.hakaienergy.ca >>> >>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2019 at 2:07 PM wrote: >>>> Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>> than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." >>>> When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k (Dana) >>>> 2. solar inter row shading (jay) >>>> 3. Re: solar inter row shading (Chris Mason) >>>> 4. Re: solar inter row shading (Ray) >>>> 5. Re: solar inter row shading (William Miller) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>> From: Dana >>>> To: "'RE-wrenches'" >>>> Cc: >>>> Bcc: >>>> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:42:35 -0600 >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k >>>> Generwrecked strikes again! After 3 fires in the controllers & 2 more engine meltdowns due to oil loss I would not touch a wreck. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>>> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >>>> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>>>  Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Maverick Brown >>>> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 11:41 AM >>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac Warranty claim ECOGEN 15k >>>> >>>> Wrenches >>>> >>>> Any guidance on getting warranty claim approved when their denial reason is the generic “unsafe” installation? There isn’t anything unsafe about the 1.5 year install that I can see. The ECOGEN is connected to an Outback Radian. >>>> >>>> Generator has 950 hours on it before the brushes melted down from being exposed to engine oil. >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Maverick >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>> From: jay >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> Cc: >>>> Bcc: >>>> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 14:59:06 -0700 >>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading >>>> HI All, >>>> >>>> I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? >>>> I can’t find any. >>>> >>>> RBI used to have one, it was really slick. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> jay >>>> >>>> peltz power >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>> From: Chris Mason >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> Cc: >>>> Bcc: >>>> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 20:03:23 -0400 >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading >>>> Sketchup with Skelion >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:41 PM jay wrote: >>>>> HI All, >>>>> >>>>> I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? >>>>> I can’t find any. >>>>> >>>>> RBI used to have one, it was really slick. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> jay >>>>> >>>>> peltz power >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Chris Mason >>>> Solar systems designer >>>> Generac Generators Industrial technician >>>> >>>> Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar >>>> Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 >>>> WhatsApp 264.235.5670 >>>> Skype: netconcepts >>>> www.cometsolar.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>> From: Ray >>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> Cc: >>>> Bcc: >>>> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 19:15:29 -0600 >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading >>>> Here's a cool row spacing sheet that the Wrenches' own William Miller provided us a few years back. He might have a newer version, but this should do what you need, I think. >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>> On 7/26/19 6:03 PM, Chris Mason wrote: >>>>> Sketchup with Skelion >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:41 PM jay wrote: >>>>>> HI All, >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? >>>>>> I can’t find any. >>>>>> >>>>>> RBI used to have one, it was really slick. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> jay >>>>>> >>>>>> peltz power >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Chris Mason >>>>> Solar systems designer >>>>> Generac Generators Industrial technician >>>>> >>>>> Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar >>>>> Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 >>>>> WhatsApp 264.235.5670 >>>>> Skype: netconcepts >>>>> www.cometsolar.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>> From: William Miller >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> Cc: >>>> Bcc: >>>> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:48:14 -0700 >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading >>>> Jay: >>>> >>>> I have a spreadsheet on our website that might do the trick. It gets complicated with non-flat ground and rows that are not due east-west. It’s been a long time since I used it but give it a try. >>>> >>>> MillerSolar.com, find resources tab. >>>> >>>> William >>>> >>>> > On Jul 26, 2019, at 2:59 PM, jay wrote: >>>> > >>>> > HI All, >>>> > >>>> > I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? >>>> > I can’t find any. >>>> > >>>> > RBI used to have one, it was really slick. >>>> > >>>> > Thanks >>>> > >>>> > jay >>>> > >>>> > peltz power >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> > >>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> > >>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> > >>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> Solar systems designer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar >> Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 >> WhatsApp 264.235.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> www.cometsolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Jul 29 11:39:43 2019 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 11:39:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? In-Reply-To: <4ba9b55a-1e9e-6e09-220a-10e0051aa322@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> <002f01d543c7$846608d0$8d321a70$@solarwork.com> <01d801d543cf$08620330$19260990$@OasisMontana.com> <25550da7-8691-7dcf-fec8-554dcc4ea709@villagepowerdesign.com> <4ba9b55a-1e9e-6e09-220a-10e0051aa322@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: I've been following this post with great interest. I was looking at an off-grid project a couple years back that was being run entirely by large diesel generators and had two massive AC units where the LRA was 104 Amps. I found a company that makes what amounts to a soft start. I don't recall the engineer/owners name but he was very knowledgeable. His number is 813-601-0947 and web site is gen-pro.biz. To finish the client never made the switch from generator to solar so I can't say if these units work. Hope this provides another option. Sincerely, Christopher *229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater < jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > Hey Jerry, > > I think the issue is capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs. but there > are other approaches to soft start - still learning. Thanks for the > reference! > > Best, > > Jeff > > Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM: > > Wrenches > I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller came from > ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a AC chiller grid > connected not off grid but the controller works either way > Jerry > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater < > jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > >> Thanks Chris! >> >> Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an integrated control - >> motor combo that can soft start like Franklin did - the majority of single >> phase motors can't use soft start. That is probably a 3-phase motor in >> that pump that they have an inverter for in the controls - or they used a >> shaded pole or spit capacitor single phase motor which can use soft start - >> at least that is what my initial research and phone call to the pump >> control company has thus far revealed. >> >> Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs when you have >> the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single phase doesn't allow you much >> room to wiggle. >> >> I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still researching but >> that's my initial findings. >> >> Anyone know differently? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> chris at OasisMontana.com wrote on 7/26/19 9:27 AM: >> >> Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC soft start >> pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and #3AS30 Aquavar Solo >> controller); it’s been running off of my 2011 Radian GS8048 since 2016, >> when I had to drill a new well (the water table is dropping) and pump from >> about 300 ft. depth. I have 3500 ft. of drip irrigation, a big garden >> and the usual domestic water loads. It’s worked flawlessly since its >> inception, and I cannot speak more highly of Goulds pumps. My first one >> lasted 23 years (it was a 1.5HP model). >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >> >> 406-777-4309 fax >> >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches >> *On Behalf Of *Dana >> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM >> *To:* 'Jeff Clearwater' >> ; 'RE-wrenches' >> >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage >> Pumps? >> >> >> >> Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+ years, in spite >> of doing load evaluations & others installing what ever they normally used. >> It has been a great rescue device. Well pump, 2 dish washers, booster pump, >> etc. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> * >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >> >> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater >> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? >> >> >> >> Hey Wrenches, >> >> Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and sewage pumps to >> lower the surge for off-grid inverters? >> >> The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA Omnivore Grinder >> Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Jeff >> >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> >> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM: >> >> >> >> *Thanks Ray and Jerry,Great to hear from you both with your years of >> combined experience :)* >> >> *So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a trusty Radian - >> even then from what you are saying it may not work.* >> >> And you are right Ray - Outback is careful to rate the "overload >> capability" in KVA rather than KW due most likely to voltage sag of course. >> >> *So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 second (50 A) >> might not start - especially with other loads on the system?* >> >> *RADIAN SURGE RATINGS:* >> >> *Maximum Output Current* >> 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC >> 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC >> >> *Overload Capability* >> 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa >> 5 seconds 12 kVa >> 30 minute 9 kVa >> >> >> >> >> >> *Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump motors on a >> Radian?Thanks!Jeff* >> >> >> Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: >> >> I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get an idea what an >> inverter can really do in the real world. All those millisecond ratings/ >> in rush current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and will basically >> just get you into trouble. The reason they have those ratings in amps and >> not watts, is that the voltage craters during that 100mS surge. >> >> I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump, compressor, or >> large table saw, and the inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush >> current" was within the theoretical inverter capacity. Actual Wrench list >> testimonials are much more valuable than those arcane specs. >> >> Ray Walters >> >> Remote Solar >> >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >> >> *Hey There Wrenches,* >> >> So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will NOT >> double the surge ratings of a single SW. >> >> But that brings me to my second question: >> >> *What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at maximum >> Inrush or LRA - 1ms? 100ms? 1 sec?* >> >> *Your engineering wisdom welcomed!* >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: >> >> Thanks for the tip! I'll check the firmware. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: >> >> Hi Jeff, >> >> >> >> I am not going to guess if this will work, it should. I use XW's because >> they start anything I have come across. >> >> If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same firmware. >> There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their development. >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >> >> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >> >> *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ * >> >> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >> >> *text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater >> wrote: >> >> Hey Esteemed Wrenches, >> >> So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider >> SW for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. >> >> But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is only >> rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping kick - >> probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. >> >> *The SW has the following surge capability:* >> >> *SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts:* >> Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts >> 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts >> 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts >> Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts >> >> Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? >> >> >> *Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses?* >> Thanks! >> >> Jeff >> >> -- >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >> >> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >> >> *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ * >> >> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >> >> *text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Jul 29 11:49:39 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 08:49:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? In-Reply-To: References: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> <002f01d543c7$846608d0$8d321a70$@solarwork.com> <01d801d543cf$08620330$19260990$@OasisMontana.com> <25550da7-8691-7dcf-fec8-554dcc4ea709@villagepowerdesign.com> <4ba9b55a-1e9e-6e09-220a-10e0051aa322@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <5154f3f7-4f62-f164-3a83-b4cfe048a47c@villagepowerdesign.com> Hi Chris, Thanks so much for the reference.  I still am at an impasse.  I have an unhappy customer and want to proceed cautiously - Tech support at Radian will only promise 1/2hp per 4 KW radian module - so only 1.5 HP for an 8048 - It's a 2 HP but as  you know HP is not a definitive determinant - field experience shows we can do more but it depends on the situation. I asked Outback engineers if they could work with me in taking field data like inrush etc to determine more exactly.  This particular sewage macerator has high head. I called the control panel manufacturer for the sewage pump (attached) and they said they couldn't add soft start to a single phase unit. Internet research shows you can't do much with single phase with the standard VFD (variable frequency drive) but there are other electronic approaches but I'm not sure they will work with the existing control panel. Anyone else with experience that might be relevant?  Thanks! And thanks again Chris I will make that call - Thanks! Jeff Chris Schaefer wrote on 7/29/19 8:39 AM: > I've been following this post with great interest. I was looking at an > off-grid project a couple years back that was being run entirely by > large diesel generators and had two massive AC units where the LRA was > 104 Amps. I found a company that makes what amounts to a soft start. I > don't recall the engineer/owners name but he was very knowledgeable. > His number is 813-601-0947 and web site is gen-pro.biz > . To finish the client never made the switch from > generator to solar so I can't say if these units work. Hope this > provides another option. > > Sincerely, > Christopher > > /229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > //www.solarandwindfx.com  ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com / > > / > / > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater > > > wrote: > > Hey Jerry, > > I think the issue is capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs.  > but there are other approaches to soft start - still learning.  > Thanks for the reference! > > Best, > > Jeff > > Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM: > >> Wrenches >> I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller >> came from ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a >> AC chiller grid connected not off grid but the controller works >> either way >> Jerry >> >> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater >> > > wrote: >> >> Thanks Chris! >> >> Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an integrated >> control - motor combo that can soft start like Franklin did - >> the majority of single phase motors can't use soft start.  >> That is probably a 3-phase motor in that pump that they have >> an inverter for in the controls - or they used a shaded pole >> or spit capacitor single phase motor which can use soft start >> - at least that is what my initial research and phone call to >> the pump control company has thus far revealed. >> >> Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs >> when you have the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single >> phase doesn't allow you much room to wiggle. >> >> I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still >> researching but that's my initial findings. >> >> Anyone know differently? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> chris at OasisMontana.com wrote >> on 7/26/19 9:27 AM: >> >>> Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC >>> soft start pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and >>> #3AS30 Aquavar Solo controller); it’s been running off of my >>> 2011 Radian GS8048 since 2016, when I had to drill a new >>> well (the water table is dropping) and pump from about 300 >>> ft. depth.I have 3500 ft. of drip irrigation, a big garden >>> and the usual domestic water loads.It’s worked flawlessly >>> since its inception, and I cannot speak more highly of >>> Goulds pumps.My first one lasted 23 years (it was a 1.5HP >>> model). >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Chris Daum >>> >>> Oasis Montana Inc. >>> >>> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >>> >>> 406-777-4309 fax >>> >>> www.oasismontana.com >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> >>> *On >>> Behalf Of *Dana >>> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM >>> *To:* 'Jeff Clearwater' >>> ; 'RE-wrenches' >>> >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and >>> Sewage Pumps? >>> >>> Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+ >>> years, in spite of doing load evaluations & others >>> installing what ever they normally used. It has been a great >>> rescue device. Well pump, 2 dish washers, booster pump, etc. >>> >>> Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. >>> >>> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>> * >>> >>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 >>> >>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >>> >>> _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _ >>> >>> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> >> > *On >>> Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater >>> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >> > >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and >>> Sewage Pumps? >>> >>> Hey Wrenches, >>> >>> Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and >>> sewage pumps to lower the surge for off-grid inverters? >>> >>> The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA >>> Omnivore Grinder Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> linkedin >>> >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM: >>> >>> *Thanks Ray and Jerry, >>> >>> Great to hear from you both with your years of combined >>> experience :)* >>> >>> *So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a >>> trusty Radian - _even then from what you are saying it >>> may not work._* >>> >>> And you are right Ray -  Outback is careful to rate the >>> "overload capability" in KVA rather than KW due most >>> likely to voltage sag of course. >>> >>> *So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 >>> second (50 A) might not start - especially with other >>> loads on the system?* >>> >>> *RADIAN SURGE RATINGS:* >>> >>> *Maximum Output Current* >>> 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC >>> 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC >>> >>> *Overload Capability* >>> 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa >>> 5 seconds 12 kVa >>> 30 minute 9 kVa >>> >>> *Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump >>> motors on a Radian? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Jeff* >>> >>> >>> Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: >>> >>> I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to >>> get an idea what an inverter can really do in the >>> real world.  All those millisecond ratings/ in rush >>> current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and >>> will basically just get you into trouble. The reason >>> they have those ratings in amps and not watts, is >>> that the voltage craters during that 100mS surge. >>> >>> I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a >>> pump, compressor, or large table saw, and the >>> inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush >>> current" was within the theoretical inverter >>> capacity.  Actual Wrench list testimonials are much >>> more valuable than those arcane specs. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> >>> Remote Solar >>> >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>> >>> *Hey There Wrenches,* >>> >>> So be advised that after a little research the >>> SW dual stack will NOT double the surge ratings >>> of a single SW. >>> >>> But that brings me to my second question: >>> * >>> What inverter surge rating should one refer to >>> when looking at maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms?  >>> 100ms?  1 sec?* >>> >>> *Your engineering wisdom welcomed!* >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: >>> >>> Thanks for the tip!  I'll check the firmware. >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 >>> 9:11 AM: >>> >>> Hi Jeff, >>> >>> I am not going to guess if this will >>> work, it should.  I use XW's because >>> they start anything I have come across. >>> >>> If you do this, make sure but SW's have >>> the latest and same firmware. There were >>> problems with stacked SW's early on in >>> their development. >>> >>> **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar** >>> >>> **"we go where powerlines don't"** >>> >>> **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/** >>> >>> **e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> ** >>> >>> **text 209 813 0060** >>> >>> On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff >>> Clearwater >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hey Esteemed Wrenches, >>> >>> So I recently built a power trailer >>> with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider >>> SW for a client with a moderate >>> cabin lifestyle. >>> >>> But he lives on a high hill and even >>> though his 2 HP Macerator is only >>> rated at 15 amps continuous that >>> baby starts up with a whopping kick >>> - probably close to or at it's 53 >>> Amps Locked Rotor rating. >>> >>> *The SW has the following surge >>> capability:* >>> >>> *SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts:* >>> Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts >>> 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts >>> 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts >>> Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts >>> >>> Can I be confidant that 2 stacked >>> SWs will start this baby? >>> >>> *Any experience with similar >>> macerators - or simply educated guesses? >>> * >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> -- >>> >>> **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar** >>> >>> **"we go where powerlines don't"** >>> >>> **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/** >>> >>> **e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> ** >>> >>> **text 209 813 0060** >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> linkedin >>> >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com / > > / > / > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Jul 29 11:51:20 2019 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 11:51:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 100ms for Locked Rotor Amps? In-Reply-To: <77bd1c5f-0660-a646-7234-d2b249cc2432@solarray.com> References: <43f52ddf-b3f2-87b6-df21-b7bc31fec861@solarray.com> <901272ea-1752-e1eb-d6bd-a968f5d1bfd7@villagepowerdesign.com> <77bd1c5f-0660-a646-7234-d2b249cc2432@solarray.com> Message-ID: Given the DC voltage sag I have to wonder how a bank of lithium batteries would react as if I understand correctly they maintain the same voltage through out their entire range of SOC. Christopher On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 1:19 PM Ray wrote: > I've run a 3 Hp pump on a pair of VFX 3648s, but then the 2nd issue was DC > voltage sag from the batteries. We had a string of Rolls 5000s that could > not keep the voltage high enough below 70% SOC. Be sure to have plenty of > battery behind this system. Also you might look into the soft start > controllers, I've used some from Franklin that were a cheaper option than > a bigger inverter. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/26/19 7:32 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > Thanks Ray and Jerry, > > Great to hear from you both with your years of combined experience :) > > So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a trusty Radian - even > then from what you are saying it may not work. > > And you are right Ray - Outback is careful to rate the "overload > capability" in KVA rather than KW due most likely to voltage sag of course. > > So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 second (50 A) might > not start - especially with other loads on the system? > > RADIAN SURGE RATINGS: > > Maximum Output Current > 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC > 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC > > Overload Capability > 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa > 5 seconds 12 kVa > 30 minute 9 kVa > > Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump motors on a Radian? > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > > Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: > > I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get an idea what an > inverter can really do in the real world. All those millisecond ratings/ > in rush current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and will basically > just get you into trouble. The reason they have those ratings in amps and > not watts, is that the voltage craters during that 100mS surge. > > I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump, compressor, or > large table saw, and the inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush > current" was within the theoretical inverter capacity. Actual Wrench list > testimonials are much more valuable than those arcane specs. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > Hey There Wrenches, > > So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will NOT > double the surge ratings of a single SW. > > But that brings me to my second question: > > What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at maximum > Inrush or LRA - 1ms? 100ms? 1 sec? > > Your engineering wisdom welcomed! > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > > > Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: > > Thanks for the tip! I'll check the firmware. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: > > Hi Jeff, > > > > I am not going to guess if this will work, it should. I use XW's because > they start anything I have come across. > > If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same firmware. > There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their development. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > > Hey Esteemed Wrenches, > > So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider SW > for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. > > But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is only > rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping kick - > probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. > > The SW has the following surge capability: > > SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts: > Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts > 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts > 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts > Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts > > Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? > > Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > -- > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Jul 29 11:56:31 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 10:56:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? In-Reply-To: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Hi about 20 years ago we used to build a soft start, it was a reduced voltage starter, composed of AC capacitors and a relay. Upon start from pressure switch the power would flow through capacitors? And shortly there after the relay would close after motor started to turn. It seems to me we also did it with large resistor ? My memory is not the best but others may have done same. I do not remember the type of motor. Also there us a hard start kit for a PSC motor. Modern soft starts are speed drives on 3 phase motors. If i remember correctly or at all, i will send more information. On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 9:03 AM Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Hey Wrenches, > > Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and sewage pumps to > lower the surge for off-grid inverters? > > The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA Omnivore Grinder > Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac. > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM: > > Thanks Ray and Jerry, > > Great to hear from you both with your years of combined experience :) > > So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a trusty Radian - even > then from what you are saying it may not work. > > And you are right Ray - Outback is careful to rate the "overload > capability" in KVA rather than KW due most likely to voltage sag of course. > > So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 second (50 A) might > not start - especially with other loads on the system? > > RADIAN SURGE RATINGS: > > Maximum Output Current > 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC > 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC > > Overload Capability > 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa > 5 seconds 12 kVa > 30 minute 9 kVa > > Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump motors on a Radian? > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > > Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: > > I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get an idea what an > inverter can really do in the real world. All those millisecond ratings/ > in rush current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and will basically > just get you into trouble. The reason they have those ratings in amps and > not watts, is that the voltage craters during that 100mS surge. > > I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump, compressor, or > large table saw, and the inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush > current" was within the theoretical inverter capacity. Actual Wrench list > testimonials are much more valuable than those arcane specs. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > Hey There Wrenches, > > So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will NOT > double the surge ratings of a single SW. > > But that brings me to my second question: > > What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at maximum > Inrush or LRA - 1ms? 100ms? 1 sec? > > Your engineering wisdom welcomed! > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > > > Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: > > Thanks for the tip! I'll check the firmware. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: > > Hi Jeff, > > > > I am not going to guess if this will work, it should. I use XW's because > they start anything I have come across. > > If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same firmware. > There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their development. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > > Hey Esteemed Wrenches, > > So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider SW > for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. > > But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is only > rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping kick - > probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. > > The SW has the following surge capability: > > SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts: > Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts > 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts > 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts > Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts > > Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? > > Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > -- > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Mon Jul 29 12:54:31 2019 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 12:54:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support (again) In-Reply-To: References: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I have been registered as an installer for Schneider tech support for quite a while. I no longer have a way to contact them. The number I received refers me to internet support. Any help out there. I have a bad out of the box off grid Conext SW 2524. Thanks for any help, Daryl From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Jul 29 12:54:54 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 09:54:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? In-Reply-To: <6df89887ce96bd00a17a54644ce22cc7@127.0.0.1> References: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> <002f01d543c7$846608d0$8d321a70$@solarwork.com> <01d801d543cf$08620330$19260990$@OasisMontana.com> <25550da7-8691-7dcf-fec8-554dcc4ea709@villagepowerdesign.com> <4ba9b55a-1e9e-6e09-220a-10e0051aa322@villagepowerdesign.com> <5154f3f7-4f62-f164-3a83-b4cfe048a47c@villagepowerdesign.com> <6df89887ce96bd00a17a54644ce22cc7@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <15372778-f841-12c0-4fde-97d3bdfa7b76@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey Dave, Okay I'm hearing you now after you said it twice! :)  So let's compare Radian and XW: Radian: Continuous - 33.3 Amps - 8000 Watts 30minute - 9 kVA - 37.5 Amps 5 Secs - 12 KVA - 50 Amps 100 mS RMS - 16.97 kVA - 70.7 AMPs 1 mS Peak - 100 Amps XW: Continuous -  28 Amps 6800 Watts 30 Minutes -  35 Amps 8500 Watts 5 Minutes - 45.8 Amps 11,000 Watts 60 Secs - 52 Amps - 12000 Watts 5 Secs - ? 1 Sec - ? 100 ms - ? So I'm not seeing it from these figures - but I don't have the 5 Secs and smaller.  Do Schneider and Radian offer curves for this perhaps? Anyone else want to chime in on real field experience comparisons? Thanks! Jeff Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/29/19 9:01 AM: > This is why I use the XW! They start just about anything and they are > one 6.8KW inverter, not multiple like the Radian. I do like the radian > and use it. For large motors, XW is hard to beat. The battery needs to > be at least 800 AH for this large motor app. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 08:49:39 -0700, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> >> Thanks so much for the reference.  I still am at an impasse.  I have >> an unhappy customer and want to proceed cautiously - Tech support at >> Radian will only promise 1/2hp per 4 KW radian module - so only 1.5 >> HP for an 8048 - It's a 2 HP but as  you know HP is not a definitive >> determinant - field experience shows we can do more but it depends on >> the situation.  I asked Outback engineers if they could work with me >> in taking field data like inrush etc to determine more exactly.  This >> particular sewage macerator has high head. >> >> I called the control panel manufacturer for the sewage pump >> (attached) and they said they couldn't add soft start to a single >> phase unit.  Internet research shows you can't do much with single >> phase with the standard VFD (variable frequency drive) but there are >> other electronic approaches but I'm not sure they will work with the >> existing control panel. >> >> Anyone else with experience that might be relevant?  Thanks! >> >> And thanks again Chris I will make that call - Thanks! >> >> Jeff >> >> Chris Schaefer wrote on 7/29/19 8:39 AM: >> >>> I've been following this post with great interest. I was looking at >>> an off-grid project a couple years back that was being run entirely >>> by large diesel generators and had two massive AC units where the >>> LRA was 104 Amps. I found a company that makes what amounts to a >>> soft start. I don't recall the engineer/owners name but he was very >>> knowledgeable. His number is 813-601-0947 and web site is >>> gen-pro.biz . To finish the client never made >>> the switch from generator to solar so I can't say if these units >>> work. Hope this provides another option. >>> Sincerely, >>> Christopher >>> >>> /229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> //www.solarandwindfx.com  ~ E-mail: >>> chris at solarandwindfx.com / >>> >>> / >>> / >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who >>> are willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hey Jerry, >>> >>> I think the issue is capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs.  >>> but there are other approaches to soft start - still learning. >>> Thanks for the reference! >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM: >>> >>>> Wrenches >>>> I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller >>>> came from ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a >>>> AC chiller grid connected not off grid but the controller works >>>> either way >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks Chris! >>>> >>>> Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an >>>> integrated control - motor combo that can soft start like >>>> Franklin did - the majority of single phase motors can't >>>> use soft start.  That is probably a 3-phase motor in that >>>> pump that they have an inverter for in the controls - or >>>> they used a shaded pole or spit capacitor single phase >>>> motor which can use soft start - at least that is what my >>>> initial research and phone call to the pump control company >>>> has thus far revealed. >>>> >>>> Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs >>>> when you have the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single >>>> phase doesn't allow you much room to wiggle. >>>> >>>> I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still >>>> researching but that's my initial findings. >>>> >>>> Anyone know differently? >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> chris at OasisMontana.com >>>> wrote on 7/26/19 9:27 AM: >>>> >>>>> Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp >>>>> 240VAC soft start pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 >>>>> and #3AS30 Aquavar Solo controller); it's been running off >>>>> of my 2011 Radian GS8048 since 2016, when I had to drill a >>>>> new well (the water table is dropping) and pump from about >>>>> 300 ft. depth.I have 3500 ft. of drip irrigation, a big >>>>> garden and the usual domestic water loads.It's worked >>>>> flawlessly since its inception, and I cannot speak more >>>>> highly of Goulds pumps.My first one lasted 23 years (it >>>>> was a 1.5HP model). >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Chris Daum >>>>> >>>>> Oasis Montana Inc. >>>>> >>>>> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >>>>> >>>>> 406-777-4309 fax >>>>> >>>>> www.oasismontana.com >>>>> >>>>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>>>> >>>>> *On >>>>> Behalf Of *Dana >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM >>>>> *To:* 'Jeff Clearwater' >>>>> ; 'RE-wrenches' >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well >>>>> and Sewage Pumps? >>>>> >>>>> Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+ >>>>> years, in spite of doing load evaluations & others >>>>> installing what ever they normally used. It has been a >>>>> great rescue device. Well pump, 2 dish washers, booster >>>>> pump, etc. >>>>> >>>>> Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, >>>>> Inc. >>>>> >>>>> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>>>> >>>>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>>>> >>>>> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>>>> >>>>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>>>> >>>> > *On >>>>> Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM >>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> > >>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and >>>>> Sewage Pumps? >>>>> >>>>> Hey Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and >>>>> sewage pumps to lower the surge for off-grid inverters? >>>>> >>>>> The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA >>>>> Omnivore Grinder Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>>> >>>>> Jeff Clearwater >>>>> Village Power Design >>>>> linkedin >>>>> >>>>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>>>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM: >>>>> >>>>> *Thanks Ray and Jerry, >>>>> >>>>> Great to hear from you both with your years of >>>>> combined experience :)* >>>>> >>>>> *So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to >>>>> a trusty Radian - even then from what you are saying >>>>> it may not work.* >>>>> >>>>> And you are right Ray -  Outback is careful to rate >>>>> the "overload capability" in KVA rather than KW due >>>>> most likely to voltage sag of course. >>>>> >>>>> *So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 >>>>> second (50 A) might not start - especially with other >>>>> loads on the system?* >>>>> >>>>> *RADIAN SURGE RATINGS:* >>>>> >>>>> *Maximum Output Current* >>>>> 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC >>>>> 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC >>>>> >>>>> *Overload Capability* >>>>> 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa >>>>> 5 seconds 12 kVa >>>>> 30 minute 9 kVa >>>>> >>>>> *Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump >>>>> motors on a Radian? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Jeff* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: >>>>> >>>>> I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings >>>>> to get an idea what an inverter can really do in >>>>> the real world.  All those millisecond ratings/ in >>>>> rush current specs won't get a pump or motor >>>>> started, and will basically just get you into >>>>> trouble.  The reason they have those ratings in >>>>> amps and not watts, is that the voltage craters >>>>> during that 100mS surge. >>>>> >>>>> I can't tell you how many times we tried to start >>>>> a pump, compressor, or large table saw, and the >>>>> inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush >>>>> current" was within the theoretical inverter >>>>> capacity.  Actual Wrench list testimonials are >>>>> much more valuable than those arcane specs. >>>>> >>>>> Ray WaltersRemote Solar303 505-8760 >>>>> >>>>> On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>>>> >>>>> *Hey There Wrenches,* >>>>> >>>>> So be advised that after a little research the >>>>> SW dual stack will NOT double the surge >>>>> ratings of a single SW. >>>>> >>>>> But that brings me to my second question: >>>>> * >>>>> What inverter surge rating should one refer to >>>>> when looking at maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms?  >>>>> 100ms?  1 sec?* >>>>> >>>>> *Your engineering wisdom welcomed!* >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the tip! I'll check the firmware. >>>>> >>>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on >>>>> 7/22/19 9:11 AM: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Jeff, >>>>> >>>>> I am not going to guess if this will >>>>> work, it should.  I use XW's because >>>>> they start anything I have come across. >>>>> >>>>> If you do this, make sure but SW's >>>>> have the latest and same firmware. >>>>> There were problems with stacked SW's >>>>> early on in their development. >>>>> >>>>> **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar** >>>>> >>>>> **"we go where powerlines don't"** >>>>> >>>>> **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/** >>>>> >>>>> **e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>> ** >>>>> >>>>> **text 209 813 0060** >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, >>>>> Jeff Clearwater >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hey Esteemed Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> So I recently built a power >>>>> trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) >>>>> Schneider SW for a client with a >>>>> moderate cabin lifestyle. >>>>> >>>>> But he lives on a high hill and >>>>> even though his 2 HP Macerator is >>>>> only rated at 15 amps continuous >>>>> that baby starts up with a >>>>> whopping kick - probably close to >>>>> or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor >>>>> rating. >>>>> >>>>> *The SW has the following surge >>>>> capability:* >>>>> >>>>> *SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts:* >>>>> Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts >>>>> 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts >>>>> 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts >>>>> Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts >>>>> >>>>> Can I be confidant that 2 stacked >>>>> SWs will start this baby? >>>>> >>>>> *Any experience with similar >>>>> macerators - or simply educated >>>>> guesses? >>>>> * >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar** >>>>> >>>>> **"we go where powerlines don't"** >>>>> >>>>> **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/** >>>>> >>>>> **e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>> ** >>>>> >>>>> **text 209 813 0060** >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________List >>>>> sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: >>>>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> Change >>>>> listserver email address & >>>>> settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList >>>>> rules & >>>>> etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> Check >>>>> out or update participant >>>>> bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________List >>>>> sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: >>>>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> Change >>>>> listserver email address & >>>>> settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList >>>>> rules & >>>>> etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> Check >>>>> out or update participant >>>>> bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________List >>>>> sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: >>>>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> Change >>>>> listserver email address & >>>>> settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList >>>>> rules & >>>>> etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> Check >>>>> out or update participant >>>>> bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________List >>>>> sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: >>>>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> Change >>>>> listserver email address & >>>>> settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList >>>>> rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> Check out or >>>>> update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>>> >>>>> Jeff Clearwater >>>>> Village Power Design >>>>> linkedin >>>>> >>>>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>>>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer's >>> >>> /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: >>> chris at solarandwindfx.com / >>> >>> / >>> / >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who >>> are willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> > -- > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 200 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Jul 29 12:59:40 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 09:59:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? In-Reply-To: References: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> <002f01d543c7$846608d0$8d321a70$@solarwork.com> <01d801d543cf$08620330$19260990$@OasisMontana.com> <25550da7-8691-7dcf-fec8-554dcc4ea709@villagepowerdesign.com> <4ba9b55a-1e9e-6e09-220a-10e0051aa322@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <8decf2a8-b6c7-7e59-242d-567179db1b84@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey Chris and Wrenches, So I talked to Steve at Gen Pro and he says that his soft starts are intended to be used for LRA conditions where there is a load against the shaft on start-up - although they do do some well pumps.  See below - still searching! Thanks though cause he is going to have his engineers look at it. From their website FAQ: How do I verify SureStart is performing as stated? To verify LRA reduction in a field installation, technicians will require a device that can capture inrush current and display this LRA value in a digital readout.  FLUKE® 375 Clamp Meter is one such tool that is available for field use.  Although not as accurate as an oscilloscope (which is required to test and rate LRA for compressors), this device should allow field technicians to verify SureStart performance when used properly. The LED portal on the front cover of SureStart can also be used to verify operation.  A steady, non-flashing light indicates SureStart is wired and operating properly.  If the LED light is flashing, this indicates a "fault" condition.  Please review Installation Instructions, Specification Catalog, or Submittal Sets to determine the fault codes. Can I apply SureStart to well pumps or other applications? Although no significant testing has been done, well pump applications have had SureStart applied successfully. Please review the requirements for reciprocating/rotary compressors as they pertain to starting "under a load."  SureStart is designed to start direct, across-the-line motor starts that have ZERO load applied on the motor shaft.  If there is a load on the compressor or pump motor at startup, SureStart should not be applied. Compressor motor RLA considerations are also necessary to verify potential operation. SureStart should not be applied to "squirrel-cage" or other types of fans. SureStart is an electrical device and should be mounted in a protected compartment. In the future, we hope to publish Specifications for well pump Best, Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Chris Schaefer wrote on 7/29/19 8:39 AM: > I've been following this post with great interest. I was looking at an > off-grid project a couple years back that was being run entirely by > large diesel generators and had two massive AC units where the LRA was > 104 Amps. I found a company that makes what amounts to a soft start. I > don't recall the engineer/owners name but he was very knowledgeable. > His number is 813-601-0947 and web site is gen-pro.biz > . To finish the client never made the switch from > generator to solar so I can't say if these units work. Hope this > provides another option. > > Sincerely, > Christopher > > /229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > //www.solarandwindfx.com  ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com / > > / > / > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater > > > wrote: > > Hey Jerry, > > I think the issue is capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs.  > but there are other approaches to soft start - still learning.  > Thanks for the reference! > > Best, > > Jeff > > Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM: > >> Wrenches >> I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller >> came from ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a >> AC chiller grid connected not off grid but the controller works >> either way >> Jerry >> >> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater >> > > wrote: >> >> Thanks Chris! >> >> Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an integrated >> control - motor combo that can soft start like Franklin did - >> the majority of single phase motors can't use soft start.  >> That is probably a 3-phase motor in that pump that they have >> an inverter for in the controls - or they used a shaded pole >> or spit capacitor single phase motor which can use soft start >> - at least that is what my initial research and phone call to >> the pump control company has thus far revealed. >> >> Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs >> when you have the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single >> phase doesn't allow you much room to wiggle. >> >> I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still >> researching but that's my initial findings. >> >> Anyone know differently? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> chris at OasisMontana.com wrote >> on 7/26/19 9:27 AM: >> >>> Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC >>> soft start pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and >>> #3AS30 Aquavar Solo controller); it’s been running off of my >>> 2011 Radian GS8048 since 2016, when I had to drill a new >>> well (the water table is dropping) and pump from about 300 >>> ft. depth.I have 3500 ft. of drip irrigation, a big garden >>> and the usual domestic water loads.It’s worked flawlessly >>> since its inception, and I cannot speak more highly of >>> Goulds pumps.My first one lasted 23 years (it was a 1.5HP >>> model). >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Chris Daum >>> >>> Oasis Montana Inc. >>> >>> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >>> >>> 406-777-4309 fax >>> >>> www.oasismontana.com >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> >>> *On >>> Behalf Of *Dana >>> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM >>> *To:* 'Jeff Clearwater' >>> ; 'RE-wrenches' >>> >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and >>> Sewage Pumps? >>> >>> Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+ >>> years, in spite of doing load evaluations & others >>> installing what ever they normally used. It has been a great >>> rescue device. Well pump, 2 dish washers, booster pump, etc. >>> >>> Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. >>> >>> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>> * >>> >>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 >>> >>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >>> >>> _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _ >>> >>> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> >> > *On >>> Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater >>> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >> > >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and >>> Sewage Pumps? >>> >>> Hey Wrenches, >>> >>> Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and >>> sewage pumps to lower the surge for off-grid inverters? >>> >>> The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA >>> Omnivore Grinder Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> linkedin >>> >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM: >>> >>> *Thanks Ray and Jerry, >>> >>> Great to hear from you both with your years of combined >>> experience :)* >>> >>> *So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a >>> trusty Radian - _even then from what you are saying it >>> may not work._* >>> >>> And you are right Ray -  Outback is careful to rate the >>> "overload capability" in KVA rather than KW due most >>> likely to voltage sag of course. >>> >>> *So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 >>> second (50 A) might not start - especially with other >>> loads on the system?* >>> >>> *RADIAN SURGE RATINGS:* >>> >>> *Maximum Output Current* >>> 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC >>> 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC >>> >>> *Overload Capability* >>> 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa >>> 5 seconds 12 kVa >>> 30 minute 9 kVa >>> >>> *Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump >>> motors on a Radian? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Jeff* >>> >>> >>> Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: >>> >>> I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to >>> get an idea what an inverter can really do in the >>> real world.  All those millisecond ratings/ in rush >>> current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and >>> will basically just get you into trouble. The reason >>> they have those ratings in amps and not watts, is >>> that the voltage craters during that 100mS surge. >>> >>> I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a >>> pump, compressor, or large table saw, and the >>> inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush >>> current" was within the theoretical inverter >>> capacity.  Actual Wrench list testimonials are much >>> more valuable than those arcane specs. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> >>> Remote Solar >>> >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>> >>> *Hey There Wrenches,* >>> >>> So be advised that after a little research the >>> SW dual stack will NOT double the surge ratings >>> of a single SW. >>> >>> But that brings me to my second question: >>> * >>> What inverter surge rating should one refer to >>> when looking at maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms?  >>> 100ms?  1 sec?* >>> >>> *Your engineering wisdom welcomed!* >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: >>> >>> Thanks for the tip!  I'll check the firmware. >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 >>> 9:11 AM: >>> >>> Hi Jeff, >>> >>> I am not going to guess if this will >>> work, it should.  I use XW's because >>> they start anything I have come across. >>> >>> If you do this, make sure but SW's have >>> the latest and same firmware. There were >>> problems with stacked SW's early on in >>> their development. >>> >>> **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar** >>> >>> **"we go where powerlines don't"** >>> >>> **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/** >>> >>> **e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> ** >>> >>> **text 209 813 0060** >>> >>> On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff >>> Clearwater >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hey Esteemed Wrenches, >>> >>> So I recently built a power trailer >>> with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider >>> SW for a client with a moderate >>> cabin lifestyle. >>> >>> But he lives on a high hill and even >>> though his 2 HP Macerator is only >>> rated at 15 amps continuous that >>> baby starts up with a whopping kick >>> - probably close to or at it's 53 >>> Amps Locked Rotor rating. >>> >>> *The SW has the following surge >>> capability:* >>> >>> *SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts:* >>> Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts >>> 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts >>> 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts >>> Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts >>> >>> Can I be confidant that 2 stacked >>> SWs will start this baby? >>> >>> *Any experience with similar >>> macerators - or simply educated guesses? >>> * >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> -- >>> >>> **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar** >>> >>> **"we go where powerlines don't"** >>> >>> **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/** >>> >>> **e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> ** >>> >>> **text 209 813 0060** >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> linkedin >>> >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com / > > / > / > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jul 29 12:01:00 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 09:01:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Soft_Start_Modules_for_Well_and_Sewage_P?= =?utf-8?q?umps=3F?= In-Reply-To: <5154f3f7-4f62-f164-3a83-b4cfe048a47c@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> <002f01d543c7$846608d0$8d321a70$@solarwork.com> <01d801d543cf$08620330$19260990$@OasisMontana.com> <25550da7-8691-7dcf-fec8-554dcc4ea709@villagepowerdesign.com> <4ba9b55a-1e9e-6e09-220a-10e0051aa322@villagepowerdesign.com> <5154f3f7-4f62-f164-3a83-b4cfe048a47c@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <6df89887ce96bd00a17a54644ce22cc7@127.0.0.1> This is why I use the XW! They start just about anything and they are one 6.8KW inverter, not multiple like the Radian. I do like the radian and use it. For large motors, XW is hard to beat. The battery needs to be at least 800 AH for this large motor app. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 08:49:39 -0700, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hi Chris, Thanks so much for the reference. I still am at an impasse. I have an unhappy customer and want to proceed cautiously - Tech support at Radian will only promise 1/2hp per 4 KW radian module - so only 1.5 HP for an 8048 - It's a 2 HP but as you know HP is not a definitive determinant - field experience shows we can do more but it depends on the situation. I asked Outback engineers if they could work with me in taking field data like inrush etc to determine more exactly. This particular sewage macerator has high head. I called the control panel manufacturer for the sewage pump (attached) and they said they couldn't add soft start to a single phase unit. Internet research shows you can't do much with single phase with the standard VFD (variable frequency drive) but there are other electronic approaches but I'm not sure they will work with the existing control panel. Anyone else with experience that might be relevant? Thanks! And thanks again Chris I will make that call - Thanks! Jeff Chris Schaefer wrote on 7/29/19 8:39 AM: I've been following this post with great interest. I was looking at an off-grid project a couple years back that was being run entirely by large diesel generators and had two massive AC units where the LRA was 104 Amps. I found a company that makes what amounts to a soft start. I don't recall the engineer/owners name but he was very knowledgeable. His number is 813-601-0947 and web site is gen-pro.biz [3]. To finish the client never made the switch from generator to solar so I can't say if these units work. Hope this provides another option. Sincerely, Christopher 229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [4] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [5]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Jerry, I think the issue is capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs. but there are other approaches to soft start - still learning. Thanks for the reference! Best, Jeff Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM: Wrenches I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller came from ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a AC chiller grid connected not off grid but the controller works either way Jerry On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: Thanks Chris! Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an integrated control - motor combo that can soft start like Franklin did - the majority of single phase motors can't use soft start. That is probably a 3-phase motor in that pump that they have an inverter for in the controls - or they used a shaded pole or spit capacitor single phase motor which can use soft start - at least that is what my initial research and phone call to the pump control company has thus far revealed. Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs when you have the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single phase doesn't allow you much room to wiggle. I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still researching but that's my initial findings. Anyone know differently? Thanks! Jeff chris at OasisMontana.com [8] wrote on 7/26/19 9:27 AM: Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC soft start pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and #3AS30 Aquavar Solo controller); it's been running off of my 2011 Radian GS8048 since 2016, when I had to drill a new well (the water table is dropping) and pump from about 300 ft. depth. I have 3500 ft. of drip irrigation, a big garden and the usual domestic water loads. It's worked flawlessly since its inception, and I cannot speak more highly of Goulds pumps. My first one lasted 23 years (it was a 1.5HP model). Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com [9] FROM: RE-wrenches [10] ON BEHALF OF Dana SENT: Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM TO: 'Jeff Clearwater' [11]; 'RE-wrenches' [12] SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+ years, in spite of doing load evaluations font-family: 'Century Gothic'; font-size: large;"> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com [13] "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Jeff Clearwater SENT: Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? Hey Wrenches, Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and sewage pumps to lower the surge for off-grid inverters? The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA Omnivore Grinder Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac. Thanks! Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin [16] www.villagepowerdesign.com [17] cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM: Thanks Ray and Jerry, Great to hear from you both with your years of combined experience :) SO YES LOOKING AT THE 5 SEC HAS ME SWITCHING BACK TO A TRUSTY RADIAN - EVEN THEN FROM WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IT MAY NOT WORK. And you are right Ray - Outback is careful to rate the "overload capability" in KVA rather than KW due most likely to voltage sag of course. SO THIS 53 LRA 2 HP MOTOR - IF I CAN ONLY TRUST THE 5 SECOND (50 A) MIGHT NOT START - ESPECIALLY WITH OTHER LOADS ON THE SYSTEM? RADIAN SURGE RATINGS: MAXIMUM OUTPUT CURRENT 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC OVERLOAD CAPABILITY 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa 5 seconds 12 kVa 30 minute 9 kVa Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump motors on a Radian? Thanks! Jeff Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get an idea what an inverter can really do in the real world. All those millisecond ratings/ in rush current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and will basically just get you into trouble. The reason they have those ratings in amps and not watts, is that the voltage craters during that 100mS surge. I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump, compressor, or large table saw, and the inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush current" was within the theoretical inverter capacity. Actual Wrench list testimonials are much more valuable than those arcane specs. Ray WaltersRemote Solar303 505-8760 On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: HEY THERE WRENCHES, So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will NOT double the surge ratings of a single SW. But that brings me to my second question: What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms? 100ms? 1 sec? YOUR ENGINEERING WISDOM WELCOMED! Thanks, Jeff Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: Thanks for the tip! I'll check the firmware. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: Hi Jeff, I am not going to guess if this will work, it should. I use XW's because they start anything I have come across. If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same firmware. There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their development. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT 209 813 0060 On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater [18] wrote: Hey Esteemed Wrenches, So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider SW for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is only rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping kick - probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. THE SW HAS THE FOLLOWING SURGE CAPABILITY: SW 4048 RATED @ 240 VOLTS: Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses? Thanks! Jeff -- DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [19] Change listserver email address font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: small;">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [21] List rules font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: small;">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [22] Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org [23] _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [24] Change listserver email address font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: small;">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [25] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [26] List rules font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: small;">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [27] Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org [28] _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [29] Change listserver email address font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: small;">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [30] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [31] List rules font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: small;">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [32] Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org [33] _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [34] Change listserver email address font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: small;">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [35] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [36] List rules font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: small;">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [37] Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org [38] -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin [39] www.villagepowerdesign.com [40] cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [41] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [42] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [43] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [44] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [45] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [46] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [47] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [48] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [49] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [50] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [51] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [52] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [53] List rules color: #1f497d;">Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [57] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [58]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://gen-pro.biz [4] http://www.solarandwindfx.com/ [5] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [6] mailto:jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com [7] mailto:jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com [8] mailto:chris at OasisMontana.com [9] http://www.oasismontana.com [10] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] mailto:jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com [12] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.solarwork.com [14] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/ [17] http://www.villagepowerdesign.com [18] mailto:jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com [19] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [20] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [22] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [23] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [24] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [25] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [26] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [27] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [28] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [29] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [30] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [31] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [32] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [33] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [34] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [35] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [36] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [37] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [38] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [39] https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/ [40] http://www.villagepowerdesign.com [41] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [42] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [43] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [44] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [45] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [46] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [47] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [48] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [49] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [50] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [51] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [52] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [53] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [54] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [55] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [56] http://webmail.sti.net/http:www.solarandwindfx.com [57] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [58] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jul 29 17:48:39 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 14:48:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider tech support (again) In-Reply-To: References: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: You should have a mobile number directly into support. I just used it last week. If not you are going to have get one from them. If you write me off list I will try and help you get in.. I am cc'ing Sandra also at Schneider. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 12:54:31 -0400, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: > Hi all, > I have been registered as an installer for Schneider tech support for > quite a while. I no longer have a way to contact them. The number I > received refers me to internet support. Any help out there. I have a > bad out of the box off grid Conext SW 2524. > > Thanks for any help, > Daryl > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jul 31 13:51:39 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:51:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFP batteries Message-ID: <110287284dacd4d2e3d22c21ed2d437e@127.0.0.1> Anyone have any comments on Fortress LFP batteries please? I already know that they do not integrate directly with Outback and Schneider. One must use a battery monitor. I believe that the Fortress battery does not have a display for Soc, could be wrong. Thank-you! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Jul 31 15:08:46 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 09:08:46 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge woes Message-ID: <018f01d547d3$62248610$266d9230$@com> Aloha, Does anyone know any special tricks to get through to a live person at SolarEdge support? We've been dealing with nightmare waits of HOURS while my field crew wait, wait and wait and wait some more. Thanks, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Wed Jul 31 17:50:24 2019 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 17:50:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge woes In-Reply-To: <018f01d547d3$62248610$266d9230$@com> References: <018f01d547d3$62248610$266d9230$@com> Message-ID: <0ec4de4433cff751c45ee0777c4c1cf5@solar-energy-solutions.com> I believe calling at 2 AM your time would help. Once you hit about 8:30 AM EST, you might as well just do the online thing. Often online just takes 10-30 minutes and you get a valid answer (though I was told by a tech today he spent three hours going this route - hopefully that was a one-time occurrence). I am not thrilled with the online approach but it may alleviate some of your headaches. You can find their help chat button in the lower corner when on their support webpage. I am surprised how poor the service departments are for the majority of inverter manufacturers. I think I would pay an extra $10/inverter for better support when needed. Or a monthly club membership fee. Matt On 2019-07-31 15:08, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Aloha, > > Does anyone know any special tricks to get through to a live person at SolarEdge support? > > We've been dealing with nightmare waits of HOURS while my field crew wait, wait and wait and wait some more. > > Thanks, > > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] -- Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions, LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at sesre.com Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Jul 31 17:37:56 2019 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 16:37:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge woes In-Reply-To: <018f01d547d3$62248610$266d9230$@com> References: <018f01d547d3$62248610$266d9230$@com> Message-ID: <0f0001d547e8$37c8d0f0$a75a72d0$@solarcentex.com> Hahaha! You may have missed my earlier post on the topic. SolarEdge has gone from very best, most informed tech support IMO in the industry to the very bottom in a span of two months. Word from SE insider is that rapid growth brought on many new folks and tech inquiries exacerbated by new SetApp inverters. I'd say also exacerbated by a big decline in quality. We have had so many SE failures recently my team and I just discussed moving to Enphase. Really. I told the SE exec that there ought ot be tiered support so long-time, proven NABCEP installers can get real support without going through pain on tier-1 techs asking the most basic questions. But this SE exec response.shockingly.was that the certified guys were often the worst to deal with. I'm about fed up with it. Costing me money and goodwill with customers. SE might be looking after $$$ for nivestors but all they have done is pass customer support onto our backs. Howard "Scot" Arey 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2019 2:09 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge woes Aloha, Does anyone know any special tricks to get through to a live person at SolarEdge support? We've been dealing with nightmare waits of HOURS while my field crew wait, wait and wait and wait some more. Thanks, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 48531 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Thu Aug 1 10:18:52 2019 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 14:18:52 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge woes In-Reply-To: <018f01d547d3$62248610$266d9230$@com> References: <018f01d547d3$62248610$266d9230$@com> Message-ID: it also doesn't bode well with my gut feeling on reliability. I can only attest to my experiences, but I feel like a 5% failure rate is high enough it warrants some redesign.. They took away my display, and to drive something with a phone application ANYWHERE in this world other than metropolitan cities is just nightmare-ish.. Working in Gold Country California, has turned me OFF to SolarEdge . .(Pun intended).. Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2019 12:08:46 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge woes Aloha, Does anyone know any special tricks to get through to a live person at SolarEdge support? We’ve been dealing with nightmare waits of HOURS while my field crew wait, wait and wait and wait some more. Thanks, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Thu Aug 1 11:57:37 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 08:57:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? In-Reply-To: <8decf2a8-b6c7-7e59-242d-567179db1b84@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> <002f01d543c7$846608d0$8d321a70$@solarwork.com> <01d801d543cf$08620330$19260990$@OasisMontana.com> <25550da7-8691-7dcf-fec8-554dcc4ea709@villagepowerdesign.com> <4ba9b55a-1e9e-6e09-220a-10e0051aa322@villagepowerdesign.com> <8decf2a8-b6c7-7e59-242d-567179db1b84@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <4f32f2a5-7405-419f-9397-9ce8e4da4b14@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey Wrenches, So the upshot from this soft start thread is it turns out that with today's electronics just about any motor can be soft start BUT Sewage Macerator pumps can't!  They will most likely clog if started up at anything but full RPM and torque. So be aware if a customer you have has a sewage macerator pump - especially with high head - if they do and you are designing an off-grid system - suggest you take a Fluke 350 meter or oscilloscope - start the pump if already installed on a beefy generator and test the inrush and voltage lag etc. If not installed you probably need to plan for the full Locked Rotor Amps (LRA) and get an inverter with a rating that can withstand that for 5 secs. Thanks to all for your input, Best, Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/29/19 9:59 AM: > Hey Chris and Wrenches, > > So I talked to Steve at Gen Pro and he says that his soft starts are > intended to be used for LRA conditions where there is a load against > the shaft on start-up - although they do do some well pumps.  See > below - still searching! > > Thanks though cause he is going to have his engineers look at it. > > From their website FAQ: > > > How do I verify SureStart is performing as stated? > > To verify LRA reduction in a field installation, technicians will > require a device that can capture inrush current and display this LRA > value in a digital readout.  FLUKE® 375 Clamp Meter is one such tool > that is available for field use.  Although not as accurate as an > oscilloscope (which is required to test and rate LRA for compressors), > this device should allow field technicians to verify SureStart > performance when used properly. > > The LED portal on the front cover of SureStart can also be used to > verify operation.  A steady, non-flashing light indicates SureStart is > wired and operating properly.  If the LED light is flashing, this > indicates a "fault" condition.  Please review Installation > Instructions, Specification Catalog, or Submittal Sets to determine > the fault codes. > > Can I apply SureStart to well pumps or other applications? > > Although no significant testing has been done, well pump applications > have had SureStart applied successfully. Please review the > requirements for reciprocating/rotary compressors as they pertain to > starting "under a load."  SureStart is designed to start direct, > across-the-line motor starts that have ZERO load applied on the motor > shaft.  If there is a load on the compressor or pump motor at startup, > SureStart should not be applied. > > > Compressor motor RLA considerations are also necessary to verify > potential operation. > > SureStart should not be applied to "squirrel-cage" or other types of fans. > > SureStart is an electrical device and should be mounted in a protected > compartment. > > In the future, we hope to publish Specifications for well pump > > > > Best, > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > > > > Chris Schaefer wrote on 7/29/19 8:39 AM: > >> I've been following this post with great interest. I was looking at >> an off-grid project a couple years back that was being run entirely >> by large diesel generators and had two massive AC units where the LRA >> was 104 Amps. I found a company that makes what amounts to a soft >> start. I don't recall the engineer/owners name but he was very >> knowledgeable. His number is 813-601-0947 and web site is gen-pro.biz >> . To finish the client never made the switch from >> generator to solar so I can't say if these units work. Hope this >> provides another option. >> >> Sincerely, >> Christopher >> >> /229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> //www.solarandwindfx.com  ~ E-mail: >> chris at solarandwindfx.com / >> >> / >> / >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater >> > >> wrote: >> >> Hey Jerry, >> >> I think the issue is capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs.  >> but there are other approaches to soft start - still learning.  >> Thanks for the reference! >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff >> >> Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM: >> >>> Wrenches >>> I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller >>> came from ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a >>> AC chiller grid connected not off grid but the controller works >>> either way >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Chris! >>> >>> Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an >>> integrated control - motor combo that can soft start like >>> Franklin did - the majority of single phase motors can't use >>> soft start.  That is probably a 3-phase motor in that pump >>> that they have an inverter for in the controls - or they >>> used a shaded pole or spit capacitor single phase motor >>> which can use soft start - at least that is what my initial >>> research and phone call to the pump control company has thus >>> far revealed. >>> >>> Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs >>> when you have the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single >>> phase doesn't allow you much room to wiggle. >>> >>> I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still >>> researching but that's my initial findings. >>> >>> Anyone know differently? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> chris at OasisMontana.com wrote >>> on 7/26/19 9:27 AM: >>> >>>> Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC >>>> soft start pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and >>>> #3AS30 Aquavar Solo controller); it’s been running off of >>>> my 2011 Radian GS8048 since 2016, when I had to drill a new >>>> well (the water table is dropping) and pump from about 300 >>>> ft. depth.I have 3500 ft. of drip irrigation, a big garden >>>> and the usual domestic water loads.It’s worked flawlessly >>>> since its inception, and I cannot speak more highly of >>>> Goulds pumps.My first one lasted 23 years (it was a 1.5HP >>>> model). >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Chris Daum >>>> >>>> Oasis Montana Inc. >>>> >>>> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >>>> >>>> 406-777-4309 fax >>>> >>>> www.oasismontana.com >>>> >>>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>>> >>>> *On >>>> Behalf Of *Dana >>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM >>>> *To:* 'Jeff Clearwater' >>>> ; 'RE-wrenches' >>>> >>>> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well >>>> and Sewage Pumps? >>>> >>>> Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+ >>>> years, in spite of doing load evaluations & others >>>> installing what ever they normally used. It has been a >>>> great rescue device. Well pump, 2 dish washers, booster >>>> pump, etc. >>>> >>>> Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, >>>> Inc. >>>> >>>> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>>> * >>>> >>>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 >>>> >>>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _ >>>> >>>> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>>> >>>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>>> >>> > *On >>>> Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater >>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> > >>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and >>>> Sewage Pumps? >>>> >>>> Hey Wrenches, >>>> >>>> Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and >>>> sewage pumps to lower the surge for off-grid inverters? >>>> >>>> The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA >>>> Omnivore Grinder Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac. >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>> >>>> Jeff Clearwater >>>> Village Power Design >>>> linkedin >>>> >>>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>> >>>> >>>> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM: >>>> >>>> *Thanks Ray and Jerry, >>>> >>>> Great to hear from you both with your years of combined >>>> experience :)* >>>> >>>> *So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a >>>> trusty Radian - _even then from what you are saying it >>>> may not work._* >>>> >>>> And you are right Ray -  Outback is careful to rate the >>>> "overload capability" in KVA rather than KW due most >>>> likely to voltage sag of course. >>>> >>>> *So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 >>>> second (50 A) might not start - especially with other >>>> loads on the system?* >>>> >>>> *RADIAN SURGE RATINGS:* >>>> >>>> *Maximum Output Current* >>>> 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC >>>> 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC >>>> >>>> *Overload Capability* >>>> 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa >>>> 5 seconds 12 kVa >>>> 30 minute 9 kVa >>>> >>>> *Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump >>>> motors on a Radian? >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Jeff* >>>> >>>> >>>> Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: >>>> >>>> I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings >>>> to get an idea what an inverter can really do in >>>> the real world.  All those millisecond ratings/ in >>>> rush current specs won't get a pump or motor >>>> started, and will basically just get you into >>>> trouble. The reason they have those ratings in amps >>>> and not watts, is that the voltage craters during >>>> that 100mS surge. >>>> >>>> I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a >>>> pump, compressor, or large table saw, and the >>>> inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush >>>> current" was within the theoretical inverter >>>> capacity.  Actual Wrench list testimonials are much >>>> more valuable than those arcane specs. >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> >>>> Remote Solar >>>> >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> >>>> On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>>> >>>> *Hey There Wrenches,* >>>> >>>> So be advised that after a little research the >>>> SW dual stack will NOT double the surge ratings >>>> of a single SW. >>>> >>>> But that brings me to my second question: >>>> * >>>> What inverter surge rating should one refer to >>>> when looking at maximum Inrush or LRA - 1ms?  >>>> 100ms?  1 sec?* >>>> >>>> *Your engineering wisdom welcomed!* >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: >>>> >>>> Thanks for the tip!  I'll check the firmware. >>>> >>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on >>>> 7/22/19 9:11 AM: >>>> >>>> Hi Jeff, >>>> >>>> I am not going to guess if this will >>>> work, it should.  I use XW's because >>>> they start anything I have come across. >>>> >>>> If you do this, make sure but SW's have >>>> the latest and same firmware. There >>>> were problems with stacked SW's early >>>> on in their development. >>>> >>>> **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar** >>>> >>>> **"we go where powerlines don't"** >>>> >>>> **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/** >>>> >>>> **e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> ** >>>> >>>> **text 209 813 0060** >>>> >>>> On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, >>>> Jeff Clearwater >>>> >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hey Esteemed Wrenches, >>>> >>>> So I recently built a power trailer >>>> with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider >>>> SW for a client with a moderate >>>> cabin lifestyle. >>>> >>>> But he lives on a high hill and >>>> even though his 2 HP Macerator is >>>> only rated at 15 amps continuous >>>> that baby starts up with a whopping >>>> kick - probably close to or at it's >>>> 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. >>>> >>>> *The SW has the following surge >>>> capability:* >>>> >>>> *SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts:* >>>> Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts >>>> 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts >>>> 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts >>>> Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts >>>> >>>> Can I be confidant that 2 stacked >>>> SWs will start this baby? >>>> >>>> *Any experience with similar >>>> macerators - or simply educated >>>> guesses? >>>> * >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> **Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar** >>>> >>>> **"we go where powerlines don't"** >>>> >>>> **http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/** >>>> >>>> **e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> ** >>>> >>>> **text 209 813 0060** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: >>>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>> >>>> Jeff Clearwater >>>> Village Power Design >>>> linkedin >>>> >>>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: >> chris at solarandwindfx.com / >> >> / >> / >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Thu Aug 1 12:05:14 2019 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 11:05:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? In-Reply-To: <4f32f2a5-7405-419f-9397-9ce8e4da4b14@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <96d700d6-7a24-9d92-8285-0bbb7f32d95c@villagepowerdesign.com> <002f01d543c7$846608d0$8d321a70$@solarwork.com> <01d801d543cf$08620330$19260990$@OasisMontana.com> <25550da7-8691-7dcf-fec8-554dcc4ea709@villagepowerdesign.com> <4ba9b55a-1e9e-6e09-220a-10e0051aa322@villagepowerdesign.com> <8decf2a8-b6c7-7e59-242d-567179db1b84@villagepowerdesign.com> <4f32f2a5-7405-419f-9397-9ce8e4da4b14@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Another possibility would be to macerate the sewage with a low head macerator pump. And then pump to a non-grinder sewage pump that does your high head lifting. Two stages. The two pumps could have PLC or relay logic so only one would run at a time. https://www.supplyhouse.com/P382LE51-1-2-HP-Sewage-Pump-System-115v-2-Discharge-24-x-24-Basin If you really need lots of head, you could do it in multiple stages. The sewage pump systems are available in versions that can be installed outdoors. Lift to intermediate pump and then pump to next until you finally get to sanitary sewer or wherever the poop goes. You can have redundant pumps at each stage as well. -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 10:57 AM Jeff Clearwater < jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > Hey Wrenches, > > So the upshot from this soft start thread is it turns out that with > today's electronics just about any motor can be soft start BUT Sewage > Macerator pumps can't! They will most likely clog if started up at > anything but full RPM and torque. > > So be aware if a customer you have has a sewage macerator pump - > especially with high head - if they do and you are designing an off-grid > system - suggest you take a Fluke 350 meter or oscilloscope - start the > pump if already installed on a beefy generator and test the inrush and > voltage lag etc. > > If not installed you probably need to plan for the full Locked Rotor Amps > (LRA) and get an inverter with a rating that can withstand that for 5 secs. > > Thanks to all for your input, > > Best, > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > > > > > Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/29/19 9:59 AM: > > Hey Chris and Wrenches, > > So I talked to Steve at Gen Pro and he says that his soft starts are > intended to be used for LRA conditions where there is a load against the > shaft on start-up - although they do do some well pumps. See below - still > searching! > > Thanks though cause he is going to have his engineers look at it. > > From their website FAQ: > > > How do I verify SureStart is performing as stated? > > > > To verify LRA reduction in a field installation, technicians will require > a device that can capture inrush current and display this LRA value in a > digital readout. FLUKE® 375 Clamp Meter is one such tool that is available > for field use. Although not as accurate as an oscilloscope (which is > required to test and rate LRA for compressors), this device should allow > field technicians to verify SureStart performance when used properly. > > The LED portal on the front cover of SureStart can also be used to verify > operation. A steady, non-flashing light indicates SureStart is wired and > operating properly. If the LED light is flashing, this indicates a "fault" > condition. Please review Installation Instructions, Specification Catalog, > or Submittal Sets to determine the fault codes. > > > > Can I apply SureStart to well pumps or other applications? > > > > Although no significant testing has been done, well pump applications have > had SureStart applied successfully. Please review the requirements for > reciprocating/rotary compressors as they pertain to starting "under a > load." SureStart is designed to start direct, across-the-line motor starts > that have ZERO load applied on the motor shaft. If there is a load on > the compressor or pump motor at startup, SureStart should not be applied. > > > Compressor motor RLA considerations are also necessary to verify potential > operation. > > SureStart should not be applied to "squirrel-cage" or other types of fans. > > > > SureStart is an electrical device and should be mounted in a protected > compartment. > > > > In the future, we hope to publish Specifications for well pump > > > Best, > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > > > > Chris Schaefer wrote on 7/29/19 8:39 AM: > > I've been following this post with great interest. I was looking at an > off-grid project a couple years back that was being run entirely by large > diesel generators and had two massive AC units where the LRA was 104 Amps. > I found a company that makes what amounts to a soft start. I don't recall > the engineer/owners name but he was very knowledgeable. His number is > 813-601-0947 and web site is gen-pro.biz. To finish the client never made > the switch from generator to solar so I can't say if these units work. Hope > this provides another option. > > Sincerely, > Christopher > > > *229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 4:15 PM Jeff Clearwater < > jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > >> Hey Jerry, >> >> I think the issue is capacitor start motors can't handle VFDs. but there >> are other approaches to soft start - still learning. Thanks for the >> reference! >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff >> >> Jerry Shafer wrote on 7/26/19 12:59 PM: >> >> Wrenches >> I have quite a few freq drives on single phase, the controller came from >> ABB, the pic attached is reference only, it was for a AC chiller grid >> connected not off grid but the controller works either way >> Jerry >> >> On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 12:47 PM Jeff Clearwater < >> jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Chris! >>> >>> Unfortunately I'm finding that unless you build an integrated control - >>> motor combo that can soft start like Franklin did - the majority of single >>> phase motors can't use soft start. That is probably a 3-phase motor in >>> that pump that they have an inverter for in the controls - or they used a >>> shaded pole or spit capacitor single phase motor which can use soft start - >>> at least that is what my initial research and phone call to the pump >>> control company has thus far revealed. >>> >>> Apparently you can play with the voltage-amperage tradeoffs when you >>> have the 3 magnetic fields interaction - single phase doesn't allow you >>> much room to wiggle. >>> >>> I do see single phase soft-starts on the market - still researching but >>> that's my initial findings. >>> >>> Anyone know differently? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> chris at OasisMontana.com wrote on 7/26/19 9:27 AM: >>> >>> Here at the Oasis home/office, we have a Goulds 3 hp 240VAC soft start >>> pump (#18GS30, w/ Franklin motor HS09970 and #3AS30 Aquavar Solo >>> controller); it’s been running off of my 2011 Radian GS8048 since 2016, >>> when I had to drill a new well (the water table is dropping) and pump from >>> about 300 ft. depth. I have 3500 ft. of drip irrigation, a big garden >>> and the usual domestic water loads. It’s worked flawlessly since its >>> inception, and I cannot speak more highly of Goulds pumps. My first >>> one lasted 23 years (it was a 1.5HP model). >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> >>> >>> Chris Daum >>> >>> Oasis Montana Inc. >>> >>> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >>> >>> 406-777-4309 fax >>> >>> www.oasismontana.com >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches >>> *On Behalf Of *Dana >>> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 9:34 AM >>> *To:* 'Jeff Clearwater' >>> ; 'RE-wrenches' >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage >>> Pumps? >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes I have used soft starts offgrid with SW & VFX for 15+ years, in >>> spite of doing load evaluations & others installing what ever they normally >>> used. It has been a great rescue device. Well pump, 2 dish washers, booster >>> pump, etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>> >>> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>> * >>> >>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>> >>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >>> >>> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >>> >>> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>> Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater >>> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 8:04 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Soft Start Modules for Well and Sewage Pumps? >>> >>> >>> >>> Hey Wrenches, >>> >>> Anyone have success using soft-start modules on well and sewage pumps to >>> lower the surge for off-grid inverters? >>> >>> The baby we are trying to tame is a 2 HP 15 amp, 53 LRA Omnivore Grinder >>> Pump - LSG200 series - single phase 230 Vac. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> linkedin >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/26/19 6:32 AM: >>> >>> >>> >>> *Thanks Ray and Jerry,Great to hear from you both with your years of >>> combined experience :)* >>> >>> *So yes looking at the 5 sec has me switching back to a trusty Radian - >>> even then from what you are saying it may not work.* >>> >>> And you are right Ray - Outback is careful to rate the "overload >>> capability" in KVA rather than KW due most likely to voltage sag of course. >>> >>> *So this 53 LRA 2 HP motor - if I can only trust the 5 second (50 A) >>> might not start - especially with other loads on the system?* >>> >>> *RADIAN SURGE RATINGS:* >>> >>> *Maximum Output Current* >>> 1 ms peak 100 Amps AC at 240 VAC, 200 Amps AC at 120 VAC >>> 100 ms RMS 70.7 Amps AC at 240 VAC >>> >>> *Overload Capability* >>> 100 ms surge 16.97 kVa >>> 5 seconds 12 kVa >>> 30 minute 9 kVa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Other's experience with 2 HP sewage pump or well pump motors on a >>> Radian?Thanks!Jeff* >>> >>> >>> Ray wrote on 7/25/19 5:48 PM: >>> >>> I only look at the 5 sec and 30 sec surge ratings to get an idea what an >>> inverter can really do in the real world. All those millisecond ratings/ >>> in rush current specs won't get a pump or motor started, and will basically >>> just get you into trouble. The reason they have those ratings in amps and >>> not watts, is that the voltage craters during that 100mS surge. >>> >>> I can't tell you how many times we tried to start a pump, compressor, or >>> large table saw, and the inverter just shut off, even though the "in rush >>> current" was within the theoretical inverter capacity. Actual Wrench list >>> testimonials are much more valuable than those arcane specs. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> >>> Remote Solar >>> >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 7/25/19 5:15 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >>> >>> *Hey There Wrenches,* >>> >>> So be advised that after a little research the SW dual stack will NOT >>> double the surge ratings of a single SW. >>> >>> But that brings me to my second question: >>> >>> *What inverter surge rating should one refer to when looking at maximum >>> Inrush or LRA - 1ms? 100ms? 1 sec?* >>> >>> *Your engineering wisdom welcomed!* >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater wrote on 7/23/19 8:27 PM: >>> >>> Thanks for the tip! I'll check the firmware. >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 7/22/19 9:11 AM: >>> >>> Hi Jeff, >>> >>> >>> >>> I am not going to guess if this will work, it should. I use XW's >>> because they start anything I have come across. >>> >>> If you do this, make sure but SW's have the latest and same firmware. >>> There were problems with stacked SW's early on in their development. >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>> >>> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >>> >>> *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ * >>> >>> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >>> >>> *text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:26:07 -0700, Jeff Clearwater >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hey Esteemed Wrenches, >>> >>> So I recently built a power trailer with a single 4 KW (4048) Schneider >>> SW for a client with a moderate cabin lifestyle. >>> >>> But he lives on a high hill and even though his 2 HP Macerator is only >>> rated at 15 amps continuous that baby starts up with a whopping kick - >>> probably close to or at it's 53 Amps Locked Rotor rating. >>> >>> *The SW has the following surge capability:* >>> >>> *SW 4048 Rated @ 240 Volts:* >>> Continuous - 15.2 Amps 3700 Watts >>> 30 Minutes - 18.3 Amps 4400 Watts >>> 5 Secs - 29.2 Amps 7000 Watts >>> Max (100ms?) - 41 Amps - 9840 Watts >>> >>> Can I be confidant that 2 stacked SWs will start this baby? >>> >>> >>> *Any experience with similar macerators - or simply educated guesses?* >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>> >>> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >>> >>> *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ * >>> >>> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >>> >>> *text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> linkedin >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at ecotechsolar.com Thu Aug 1 14:27:28 2019 From: dana at ecotechsolar.com (Dana Brandt) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 11:27:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA -40 Arc Faults In-Reply-To: References: <702b03fb8e6f51ee8a1294805c5da8fb.squirrel@www.solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: Hi everyone, We're experiencing a large number of nuisance AFCI trips on -40 inverters with Tigo. Both SMA and Tigo claim there are no compatibility issues and that our experience is unique and others aren't having this problem. Are the rest of you still having issues with this? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt dana at ecotechsolar.com 360.318.7646 x700 www.ecotechsolar.com On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 12:15 PM Blake Gleason wrote: > Hi Matt - A couple of years ago, I worked extensively with an inverter > manufacturer (sorry I can't name) who was seeing a lot of arc-fault > nuisance tripping on systems with Tigo. They had some fancy test equipment > and did a bunch of analysis and found that Tigo was creating a lot of noise > on the DC circuits, and that noise would look like DC arc fault noise in > many situations. I don't know whether Tigo has made improvements or not, > but I wouldn't be surprised if the -40 is sensitive to the Tigo noise. If > you can talk to the right person at SMA (I don't know who that would be > these days), you might ask them about whether they have evaluated the -40 > arc detection for compatibility with Tigo; if not, maybe they could. I > suspect it's partially a matter of an evolving and imperfect set of > standards. Probably both the inverter and the maximizer meet their > respective noise standards, but there is still a problem when you put them > together. > > Best, > Blake > > On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 9:42 AM, Matt Partymiller < > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com> wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> I recall seeing some past threads about SMA arc fault issues but am >> curious if others are using SMA -40 inverters extensively and NOT seeing >> intermittent arc faults? If so, I would be curious what your DC >> installation practices look like? Are you ensuring that homerun ends use >> connectors identical to your module manufacturer? Are you crimping any DC >> transitions? Perhaps using insulated lugs for DC transitions? What type of >> conduit are you using for DC wiring? Are you using ferrules where you >> terminate in the inverter? Any other tips or suggestions are also >> welcome. >> >> At the moment arc faults for the SMA -40 inverters seem to be our main >> service ticket at this time (surpassing Enphase replacements and >> surpassing prior-model SMA arc fault issues). The arc fault errors are >> particularly prevalent on systems with Tigo optimizers installed though we >> have occurrences on pretty much every -40 unit. System meantime between >> failure seems to be unpredictable but somewhere between 2-180 days. There >> does seem to be some correlation between systems with shading and Tigos >> and prevalence of arc faults. Shutting off arc fault seems to be the only >> true solution which is obviously undesirable. >> >> SMA has us update firmware and has had us shutoff Optitrac neither of >> which resolve the issue. They also ask us to check wiring connections >> which almost never yields results (though we have found a squirrel or two >> which makes one grateful that the arc fault function exists). >> >> Thanks for any advice, >> >> Matt >> >> >> >> >> Matthew Partymiller >> Solar Energy Solutions LLC >> (877) 312-7456 >> matt at solar-energy-solutions.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Blake Gleason* - PE, LEED AP > *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* > > *P:* 510.845.2997 x128 > *E:* blake at sunlightandpower.com > *W:* sunlightandpower.com > > See how universities are using business as a force for good with solar! > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Thu Aug 1 14:37:20 2019 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2019 14:37:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA -40 Arc Faults In-Reply-To: References: <702b03fb8e6f51ee8a1294805c5da8fb.squirrel@www.solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: <05cdf8e80d76209aa447036213447bd4@solar-energy-solutions.com> Dana, We continue to have this issue across the majority of SMA and Tigo systems. Many sites go months or years with no issues, then a nuisance trip. Sites with just SMA are fine. SMA/Tigo seem entirely disinterested in acknowledging an issue. One SMA tech did tell us the new -41 inverters have a new AFCI protocol that may resolve the issue. We have largely moved on to Solaredge due to the severe AFCI problems and I have not yet installed a -41. Matt On 2019-08-01 14:27, Dana Brandt wrote: > Hi everyone, > > We're experiencing a large number of nuisance AFCI trips on -40 inverters with Tigo. Both SMA and Tigo claim there are no compatibility issues and that our experience is unique and others aren't having this problem. Are the rest of you still having issues with this? > > Thanks, > > Dana > > Dana Brandt > > dana at ecotechsolar.com > 360.318.7646 x700 > www.ecotechsolar.com [1] > > On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 12:15 PM Blake Gleason wrote: > Hi Matt - A couple of years ago, I worked extensively with an inverter manufacturer (sorry I can't name) who was seeing a lot of arc-fault nuisance tripping on systems with Tigo. They had some fancy test equipment and did a bunch of analysis and found that Tigo was creating a lot of noise on the DC circuits, and that noise would look like DC arc fault noise in many situations. I don't know whether Tigo has made improvements or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if the -40 is sensitive to the Tigo noise. If you can talk to the right person at SMA (I don't know who that would be these days), you might ask them about whether they have evaluated the -40 arc detection for compatibility with Tigo; if not, maybe they could. I suspect it's partially a matter of an evolving and imperfect set of standards. Probably both the inverter and the maximizer meet their respective noise standards, but there is still a problem when you put them together. > > Best, > Blake > > On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 9:42 AM, Matt Partymiller wrote: > Wrenches, > > I recall seeing some past threads about SMA arc fault issues but am > curious if others are using SMA -40 inverters extensively and NOT seeing > intermittent arc faults? If so, I would be curious what your DC > installation practices look like? Are you ensuring that homerun ends use > connectors identical to your module manufacturer? Are you crimping any DC > transitions? Perhaps using insulated lugs for DC transitions? What type of > conduit are you using for DC wiring? Are you using ferrules where you > terminate in the inverter? Any other tips or suggestions are also > welcome. > > At the moment arc faults for the SMA -40 inverters seem to be our main > service ticket at this time (surpassing Enphase replacements and > surpassing prior-model SMA arc fault issues). The arc fault errors are > particularly prevalent on systems with Tigo optimizers installed though we > have occurrences on pretty much every -40 unit. System meantime between > failure seems to be unpredictable but somewhere between 2-180 days. There > does seem to be some correlation between systems with shading and Tigos > and prevalence of arc faults. Shutting off arc fault seems to be the only > true solution which is obviously undesirable. > > SMA has us update firmware and has had us shutoff Optitrac neither of > which resolve the issue. They also ask us to check wiring connections > which almost never yields results (though we have found a squirrel or two > which makes one grateful that the arc fault function exists). > > Thanks for any advice, > > Matt > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] > > -- > > [4] > > [5] > [6] > [7] > [8] > [9] > [10] > [11] > > BLAKE GLEASON - PE, LEED AP > DIRECTOR OF INNOVATION & TECHNICAL EXCELLENCE > > P: 510.845.2997 x128 [12] > E: blake at sunlightandpower.com > W: sunlightandpower.com [13] > > See how universities are using business as a force for good with solar! [14] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] -- Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions, LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at sesre.com Links: ------ [1] http://www.ecotechsolar.com/ [2] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [3] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [4] http://www.sunlightandpower.com/ [5] https://www.bcorporation.net/what-are-b-corps/why-b-corps-matter [6] http://www.greenbiz.ca.gov/AboutUsAC.html [7] https://www.yelp.com/biz/sunlight-and-power-berkeley [8] https://www.facebook.com/SunLightandpower/ [9] https://plus.google.com/+SunLightPowerBerkeley [10] https://www.linkedin.com/company/sunlightandpower [11] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT9wyMAwre0RW8QnR-Hx3Mw [12] tel:510.845.2997+x128 [13] http://www.sunlightandpower.com [14] http://smart.sunlightandpower.com/vsig/blake/slpbanner.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Fri Aug 2 08:32:40 2019 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 08:32:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge woes In-Reply-To: References: <018f01d547d3$62248610$266d9230$@com> Message-ID: <3874f1e19508983877fa957e48471e45.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> One of my pet peeves with SolarEdge (I have a few) is that we are now forced to buy the StorEdge inverters with GSM service, an extra $400 or so added to the price of the inverter. The carrier is T-Mobile, which does not work in 95% of Maine. It does not seem to work with other carriers where we install, as well. There should at least be a CDMA option, but there is not. And we are seeing a lot of out of the box and infant mortality with inverters these days. My estimate would be one in ten. Daryl > it also doesn't bode well with my gut feeling on reliability. I can only > attest to my experiences, but I feel like a 5% failure rate is high enough > it warrants some redesign.. They took away my display, and to drive > something with a phone application ANYWHERE in this world other than > metropolitan cities is just nightmare-ish.. Working in Gold Country > California, has turned me OFF to SolarEdge . .(Pun intended).. > > Joe Nelson > > Project Manager C-46/C-10 > Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation > > CSL# 868816 > www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com > 530-273-4422 (Office) > > 530-217-8385 (Cell) > >  > >     > > > ________________________________ > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of > Marco Mangelsdorf > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2019 12:08:46 PM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge woes > > Aloha, > > Does anyone know any special tricks to get through to a live person at > SolarEdge support? > > We’ve been dealing with nightmare waits of HOURS while my field crew > wait, wait and wait and wait some more. > > Thanks, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From william at millersolar.com Fri Aug 2 18:30:44 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 15:30:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading In-Reply-To: <57c2976b-3582-555e-5883-3b40b9a5c928@solarray.com> References: <008b01d543fb$0abcdf20$20369d60$@solarwork.com> <57c2976b-3582-555e-5883-3b40b9a5c928@solarray.com> Message-ID: <130d3c655bb3a551c91e031dbb488eb5@mail.gmail.com> Wrenches: When this subject came up it reminded me to check the spreadsheet I had written some years ago to make sure I still have confidence in it. Well I password protected it and can’t remember the password, so I could not really look inside of this particular spreadsheet. The only way I could prove it was to rewrite it. I did that and it looks like my early work was good. In rewriting the tool I added a feature: The tool will now calculate inter-row spacing for non-equator-facing arrays (not due south facing in northern hemisphere or not due north facing in the southern hemisphere). I also left the calculations section visible so if anyone wants to play with it they can (and when I lose the password again I don’t have to reinvent it). I checked the new calculator against the old and against a few models in Autocad. I am pretty sure I got it right. If anyone out there is willing to give it a try and let me know if they find anything not right, I would appreciate it. I looked on the internet and I don’t see any inter-row tool calculation tool with the features this one has. I hope someone finds this calculator useful. I really appreciate all the help I have received from many of the participants of this forum and posting educational information is one way I can give back. The tool can be found here: https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Resources/_Resources.html William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 6:15 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading Here's a cool row spacing sheet that the Wrenches' own William Miller provided us a few years back. He might have a newer version, but this should do what you need, I think. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/26/19 6:03 PM, Chris Mason wrote: Sketchup with Skelion On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:41 PM jay wrote: HI All, I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? I can’t find any. RBI used to have one, it was really slick. Thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Fri Aug 2 18:42:47 2019 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 15:42:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge inverter noise Message-ID: I have a client complaining about RF noise from his Solaredge 5kw GT inverter installed in 2018. He believes it is causing static on his radio no matter where he locates it in the house. I haven’t been able to visit the site yet but wondering if there are any suggestions for mitigating RF or line noise in these situations? Thanks in advance! Ron Solareagle.com From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Fri Aug 2 19:45:58 2019 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 19:45:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge inverter noise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1A482198-C08F-4C03-8DA6-54502C073C5A@solshineenergyalternatives.com> Has your client verified that it’s the inverter, i.e. have they turned off the inverter? Could also be the utility meter. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Aug 2, 2019, at 6:42 PM, Ron Young wrote: > > I have a client complaining about RF noise from his Solaredge 5kw GT inverter installed in 2018. He believes it is causing static on his radio no matter where he locates it in the house. I haven’t been able to visit the site yet but wondering if there are any suggestions for mitigating RF or line noise in these situations? > > Thanks in advance! > > Ron > > Solareagle.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kelly at whidbeysunwind.com Fri Aug 2 20:21:40 2019 From: kelly at whidbeysunwind.com (Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 17:21:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery temperature sensor for Sunny Island Message-ID: <427DE1B7-4812-4415-97A9-18F6B6324458@whidbeysunwind.com> All, We replaced a failed Radian in our shop PV/backup system with an elderly Sunny Island 5048 salvaged from a demo. The inverter works fine, but needs a battery temperature sensor. I’m having no luck finding one to buy, unless it ships from Europe. Or, if another make is compatible. Any help? Thanks, Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Principal Whidbey Sun & Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP PV Installation Professional WA Electrical Administrator office: 360.678.7131 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Fri Aug 2 19:04:32 2019 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2019 16:04:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge inverter noise In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Turn off the cb to the inverter and try it Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com 530-448-9692on my Samsung Galaxy S7. -------- Original message --------From: Ron Young Date: 8/2/19 3:42 PM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solaredge inverter noise I have a client complaining about RF noise from his Solaredge 5kw GT inverter installed in 2018. He believes it is causing static on his radio no matter where he locates it in the house. I haven’t been able to visit the site yet but wondering if there are any suggestions for mitigating RF or line noise in these situations? Thanks in advance!RonSolareagle.com_______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Aug 2 20:34:02 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 17:34:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery temperature sensor for Sunny Island In-Reply-To: <427DE1B7-4812-4415-97A9-18F6B6324458@whidbeysunwind.com> References: <427DE1B7-4812-4415-97A9-18F6B6324458@whidbeysunwind.com> Message-ID: Kelly l have one, NOS, contact me off list Jerry On Fri, Aug 2, 2019, 5:31 PM Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind < kelly at whidbeysunwind.com> wrote: > All, > We replaced a failed Radian in our shop PV/backup system with an elderly > Sunny Island 5048 salvaged from a demo. The inverter works fine, but needs > a battery temperature sensor. I’m having no luck finding one to buy, unless > it ships from Europe. Or, if another make is compatible. > Any help? > Thanks, > > Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. > Principal > Whidbey Sun & Wind > Renewable Energy Systems > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > WA Electrical Administrator > office: 360.678.7131 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Aug 3 17:35:26 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 15:35:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass-through state Dual FXR system Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I've got an issue that I'm remotely trying to troubleshoot but I must be missing something. Specs: Off-grid Dual Outback FXR 3648s recently installed FM100, with about 4k of solar 2 x 16 kWh Blue Ion Batteries, installed this past week Kohler 14 generator Outback Mate 3s The issue is that the FXR inverters aren't charging the batteries when the generator is running, they are just passing the power through to the loads. I have verified that AC Input is in "Use" not "Drop" when generator is running, I have disabled all of the advanced charging (ie Global charge, float coordination, auto-charge termination and auto grid-tie control) . I have told it to "start bulk" both remotely and through the owner on site. I have done a reboot multiple times of the whole system as well as the Mate 3s. I even had the owner try a factory reset and firmware update on the Mate 3s. The firmware was successfully updated and it appears the factory reset on the mate. Nothing has changed how it behaves with the generator, generator just follows the load and no AC charging takes place. Oddly, this was working fine when we left, we had topped the batteries off with the generator. Any ideas what I might be missing? Thanks for your suggestions -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Sat Aug 3 17:48:19 2019 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass-through state Dual FXR system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1564868899.99934319@webmail.finestplanet.com> what is the battery voltage when trying to charge? maybe the BMS says they don't need any charging? todd On Saturday, August 3, 2019 2:35pm, "Mac Lewis" said: Hi Wrenches, I've got an issue that I'm remotely trying to troubleshoot but I must be missing something. Specs: Off-grid Dual Outback FXR 3648s recently installed FM100, with about 4k of solar 2 x 16 kWh Blue Ion Batteries, installed this past week Kohler 14 generator Outback Mate 3s The issue is that the FXR inverters aren't charging the batteries when the generator is running, they are just passing the power through to the loads. I have verified that AC Input is in "Use" not "Drop" when generator is running, I have disabled all of the advanced charging (ie Global charge, float coordination, auto-charge termination and auto grid-tie control) . I have told it to "start bulk" both remotely and through the owner on site. I have done a reboot multiple times of the whole system as well as the Mate 3s. I even had the owner try a factory reset and firmware update on the Mate 3s. The firmware was successfully updated and it appears the factory reset on the mate. Nothing has changed how it behaves with the generator, generator just follows the load and no AC charging takes place. Oddly, this was working fine when we left, we had topped the batteries off with the generator. Any ideas what I might be missing? Thanks for your suggestions -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Aug 3 18:53:12 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 16:53:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass-through state Dual FXR system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Bulk setting is 55.2V, the battery voltage is around 53. Generator quality is good, tried with two different generators, same result. These batteries can soak up current without the voltage changing much, great charge acceptance. The BMS is reporting ~40% SOC. The Outbacks just stay in "pass through" mode as though they think the batteries don't need it. They don't respond when I tell them to bulk charge. On Sat, Aug 3, 2019 at 4:40 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > It almost sounds like the inverters are not happy with the quality of the > generator output. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Mac Lewis > *Date: *Sat, Aug 3, 2019 5:35 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Pass-through state Dual FXR system > > Hi Wrenches, > > I've got an issue that I'm remotely trying to troubleshoot but I must be > missing something. > Specs: > Off-grid > Dual Outback FXR 3648s recently installed > FM100, with about 4k of solar > 2 x 16 kWh Blue Ion Batteries, installed this past week > Kohler 14 generator > Outback Mate 3s > > The issue is that the FXR inverters aren't charging the batteries when the > generator is running, they are just passing the power through to the > loads. I have verified that AC Input is in "Use" not "Drop" when generator > is running, I have disabled all of the advanced charging (ie Global charge, > float coordination, auto-charge termination and auto grid-tie control) . I > have told it to "start bulk" both remotely and through the owner on site. > I have done a reboot multiple times of the whole system as well as the Mate > 3s. I even had the owner try a factory reset and firmware update on the > Mate 3s. The firmware was successfully updated and it appears the factory > reset on the mate. > > Nothing has changed how it behaves with the generator, generator just > follows the load and no AC charging takes place. Oddly, this was working > fine when we left, we had topped the batteries off with the generator. > > Any ideas what I might be missing? > > Thanks for your suggestions > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Aug 3 19:11:11 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 17:11:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass-through state Dual FXR system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <391358c7-8e45-287b-f76e-8e03712b3511@solarray.com> Temp sensor? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/3/19 4:53 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > The Bulk setting is 55.2V, the battery voltage is around 53.  > Generator quality is good, tried with two different generators, same > result.  These batteries can soak up current without the voltage > changing much, great charge acceptance.  The BMS is reporting ~40% > SOC.  The Outbacks just stay in "pass through" mode as though they > think the batteries don't need it. They don't respond when I tell them > to bulk charge. > > On Sat, Aug 3, 2019 at 4:40 PM Glenn Burt > wrote: > > It almost sounds like the inverters are not happy with the quality > of the generator output. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Mac Lewis > *Date: *Sat, Aug 3, 2019 5:35 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Pass-through state Dual FXR system > > Hi Wrenches, > > I've got an issue that I'm remotely trying to troubleshoot but I > must be missing something. > Specs: > Off-grid > Dual Outback FXR 3648s recently installed > FM100, with about 4k of solar > 2 x 16 kWh Blue Ion Batteries, installed this past week > Kohler 14 generator > Outback Mate 3s > > The issue is that the FXR inverters aren't charging the batteries > when the generator is running, they are just passing the power > through to the loads.  I have verified that AC Input is in "Use" > not "Drop" when generator is running, I have disabled all of the > advanced charging (ie Global charge, float coordination, > auto-charge termination and auto grid-tie control) .  I have told > it to "start bulk" both remotely and through the owner on site.  I > have done a reboot multiple times of the whole system as well as > the Mate 3s.  I even had the owner try a factory reset and > firmware update on the Mate 3s.  The firmware was successfully > updated and it appears the factory reset on the mate. > > Nothing has changed how it behaves with the generator, generator > just follows the load and no AC charging takes place.  Oddly, this > was working fine when we left, we had topped the batteries off > with the generator. > > Any ideas what I might be missing? > > Thanks for your suggestions > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Aug 3 19:52:04 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 16:52:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass-through state Dual FXR system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac Is this site on Optics, what is the state of charge when the genny turns on. Did you use the outback white paper to set up the system with the BPE Batteries, this might be helpful. Jerry Jerry On Sat, Aug 3, 2019, 2:35 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I've got an issue that I'm remotely trying to troubleshoot but I must be > missing something. > Specs: > Off-grid > Dual Outback FXR 3648s recently installed > FM100, with about 4k of solar > 2 x 16 kWh Blue Ion Batteries, installed this past week > Kohler 14 generator > Outback Mate 3s > > The issue is that the FXR inverters aren't charging the batteries when the > generator is running, they are just passing the power through to the > loads. I have verified that AC Input is in "Use" not "Drop" when generator > is running, I have disabled all of the advanced charging (ie Global charge, > float coordination, auto-charge termination and auto grid-tie control) . I > have told it to "start bulk" both remotely and through the owner on site. > I have done a reboot multiple times of the whole system as well as the Mate > 3s. I even had the owner try a factory reset and firmware update on the > Mate 3s. The firmware was successfully updated and it appears the factory > reset on the mate. > > Nothing has changed how it behaves with the generator, generator just > follows the load and no AC charging takes place. Oddly, this was working > fine when we left, we had topped the batteries off with the generator. > > Any ideas what I might be missing? > > Thanks for your suggestions > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Sat Aug 3 20:59:36 2019 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 00:59:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass-through state Dual FXR system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mac If you want to contact me off line. I could give it a look. Shoot me your phone number Lones From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2019 2:35 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass-through state Dual FXR system ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ Hi Wrenches, I've got an issue that I'm remotely trying to troubleshoot but I must be missing something. Specs: Off-grid Dual Outback FXR 3648s recently installed FM100, with about 4k of solar 2 x 16 kWh Blue Ion Batteries, installed this past week Kohler 14 generator Outback Mate 3s The issue is that the FXR inverters aren't charging the batteries when the generator is running, they are just passing the power through to the loads. I have verified that AC Input is in "Use" not "Drop" when generator is running, I have disabled all of the advanced charging (ie Global charge, float coordination, auto-charge termination and auto grid-tie control) . I have told it to "start bulk" both remotely and through the owner on site. I have done a reboot multiple times of the whole system as well as the Mate 3s. I even had the owner try a factory reset and firmware update on the Mate 3s. The firmware was successfully updated and it appears the factory reset on the mate. Nothing has changed how it behaves with the generator, generator just follows the load and no AC charging takes place. Oddly, this was working fine when we left, we had topped the batteries off with the generator. Any ideas what I might be missing? Thanks for your suggestions -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Aug 3 20:36:32 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 17:36:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass-through state Dual FXR system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6714904e7dafdb1b292c542df5bf8317@mail.gmail.com> A few questions that might flush out the problem: 1. Can you observe the system on-site when the generator first starts? 2. Does the AC in light flash and then go solid? 3. Is there any charging when the AC in first goes solid, even if briefly? 4. What input mode is the AC port that generator connected set to? Suggest in almost all cases Generator. Don’t suggest Support. 5. What is the system type setting? 6. Is the battery amp hours set correctly? 7. Does the system charge from PV? 8. Have you tried disconnecting the PV and discharging the battery array and then charging from generator? 9. Did you check the Radian charger AC limit? 10. Is the generator type set to AC? 11. All other generator input settings verified? 12. Tried resetting equipment to factory and reprogramming manually step by step? 13. Max charger kW set correctly? 14. Gen AC input limit set correctly? Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer *Sent:* Saturday, August 3, 2019 4:52 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass-through state Dual FXR system Mac Is this site on Optics, what is the state of charge when the genny turns on. Did you use the outback white paper to set up the system with the BPE Batteries, this might be helpful. Jerry Jerry On Sat, Aug 3, 2019, 2:35 PM Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Wrenches, I've got an issue that I'm remotely trying to troubleshoot but I must be missing something. Specs: Off-grid Dual Outback FXR 3648s recently installed FM100, with about 4k of solar 2 x 16 kWh Blue Ion Batteries, installed this past week Kohler 14 generator Outback Mate 3s The issue is that the FXR inverters aren't charging the batteries when the generator is running, they are just passing the power through to the loads. I have verified that AC Input is in "Use" not "Drop" when generator is running, I have disabled all of the advanced charging (ie Global charge, float coordination, auto-charge termination and auto grid-tie control) . I have told it to "start bulk" both remotely and through the owner on site. I have done a reboot multiple times of the whole system as well as the Mate 3s. I even had the owner try a factory reset and firmware update on the Mate 3s. The firmware was successfully updated and it appears the factory reset on the mate. Nothing has changed how it behaves with the generator, generator just follows the load and no AC charging takes place. Oddly, this was working fine when we left, we had topped the batteries off with the generator. Any ideas what I might be missing? Thanks for your suggestions -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Aug 3 18:40:41 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 18:40:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass-through state Dual FXR system Message-ID: It almost sounds like the inverters are not happy with the quality of the generator output.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Mac LewisDate: Sat, Aug 3, 2019 5:35 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Pass-through state Dual FXR systemHi Wrenches,I've got an issue that I'm remotely trying to troubleshoot but I must be missing something.Specs:Off-gridDual Outback FXR 3648s recently installedFM100, with about 4k of solar2 x 16 kWh Blue Ion Batteries, installed this past weekKohler 14 generatorOutback Mate 3sThe issue is that the FXR inverters aren't charging the batteries when the generator is running, they are just passing the power through to the loads.  I have verified that AC Input is in "Use" not "Drop" when generator is running, I have disabled all of the advanced charging (ie Global charge, float coordination, auto-charge termination and auto grid-tie control) .  I have told it to "start bulk" both remotely and through the owner on site.  I have done a reboot multiple times of the whole system as well as the Mate 3s.  I even had the owner try a factory reset and firmware update on the Mate 3s.  The firmware was successfully updated and it appears the factory reset on the mate.Nothing has changed how it behaves with the generator, generator just follows the load and no AC charging takes place.  Oddly, this was working fine when we left, we had topped the batteries off with the generator.Any ideas what I might be missing?Thanks for your suggestions-- Mac Lewis"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sun Aug 4 10:30:56 2019 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 10:30:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading In-Reply-To: References: <008b01d543fb$0abcdf20$20369d60$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: This is how it looks when you model in Sketchup. Of course you have to build to the right dimensions, but it allows you to place geographically, change the day of the year and time of day, and to build other objets that may cause shading. [image: image.png] On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:41 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? > I can’t find any. > > RBI used to have one, it was really slick. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 930887 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Sun Aug 4 11:08:55 2019 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 15:08:55 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass-through state Dual FXR system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92c1015934334c24ada3a0def67e741f@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hi Mac Thanks for the full site name I found it. Here is the problem. The Absorb and the Float timers are at Zero. Setting a charge timer to Zero negates that charge stage. So Float timer at zero no Float cycle Absorb timer at Zero no Absorb cycle This was first done in the Radian then passed on to the FXR. This was done to allow a single stage of charging. The idea was some battery types require a single voltage for charging. The batteries BMS handles all the requirements of the batteries. The timers can be set as low as 1 (6 minutes) or 24 hours. If a continuous charge is needed set the Absorb timer to Zero and the Float timer to 24/7. The voltage thing is discussed in the Manual below on page 31 http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/inverter_chargers/fxr_vfxr_a/fxr_operator.pdf I hope this helps. Thank you for using OutBack Take Care Sir From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2019 2:35 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pass-through state Dual FXR system ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ Hi Wrenches, I've got an issue that I'm remotely trying to troubleshoot but I must be missing something. Specs: Off-grid Dual Outback FXR 3648s recently installed FM100, with about 4k of solar 2 x 16 kWh Blue Ion Batteries, installed this past week Kohler 14 generator Outback Mate 3s The issue is that the FXR inverters aren't charging the batteries when the generator is running, they are just passing the power through to the loads. I have verified that AC Input is in "Use" not "Drop" when generator is running, I have disabled all of the advanced charging (ie Global charge, float coordination, auto-charge termination and auto grid-tie control) . I have told it to "start bulk" both remotely and through the owner on site. I have done a reboot multiple times of the whole system as well as the Mate 3s. I even had the owner try a factory reset and firmware update on the Mate 3s. The firmware was successfully updated and it appears the factory reset on the mate. Nothing has changed how it behaves with the generator, generator just follows the load and no AC charging takes place. Oddly, this was working fine when we left, we had topped the batteries off with the generator. Any ideas what I might be missing? Thanks for your suggestions -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Sun Aug 4 13:14:51 2019 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2019 10:14:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Looks like Helioscope will allow you to calculate row spacing for shading. I am looking for a design software that will take a  residential system through the proposal, like Aurora or Helioscope, through a permit package like SolarDesignTool. Any recommendations are really welcome!Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com 530-448-9692on my Samsung Galaxy S7. -------- Original message --------From: Chris Mason Date: 8/4/19 7:30 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar inter row shading This is how it looks when you model in Sketchup. Of course you have to build to the right dimensions, but it allows you to place geographically, change the day of the year and time of day, and to build other objets that may cause shading.On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:41 PM jay wrote:HI All, I’m wondering if there is any programs/apps that do inter row shading? I can’t find any. RBI used to have one, it was really slick. Thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris MasonSolar systems designerGenerac Generators Industrial technicianComet Systems Ltd DBA Comet SolarAnguilla Cell  264.235.5670WhatsApp 264.235.5670Skype: netconceptswww.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Mon Aug 5 16:31:19 2019 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 13:31:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Message-ID: Hi Folks....Does anyone know how to reach SolarEdge support. We have numerous sites with issues and have been on phone hold for well over 3 hours. Multiple days in a row. No one answers. We tired their online chat tool and we are #49 on the wait list to be addressed. This is pretty ridiculous. I am wondering if they are going out of business? No way to get support? Any inside contacts would be appreciated. Historically we have enjoyed using their products and even customer support. They used to offer a call back feature that kept your place in line...But they stopped offering that feature. I know this is echoing others experiences recently. Also the present policy of waiting 10 days to send replacements doesn't sit well with our customers. What other inverter/optimizer combos are folks using that are proving reliable and consistent with good installer support. I have noted many complaints regarding Tigo and SMA paired together. recently on the wrenches list....What are folks using with Fronius. Lately their tech support was a pleasure to work with and we didn't even have to ask for reimbursement when replacing an inverter....Their policy is to send payment when they receive defective inverter back. I was impressed. Quick easy knowledgeable techs as well. Other suggestions are appreciated. Thanks. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Aug 5 19:06:51 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 19:06:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One word: Enphase. They have had issues with customer support in the past, but nothing close to this, and recently it has made a remarkable turnaround. The support staff is exceptionally well trained. The strange thing is sometimes I can wait 20+ minutes and sometimes someone picks up immediately. There seems to be no rhyme or reason regarding time of day/week. I just called about 30 minutes ago for a client and got through in about 30 seconds, and received instant qualified, experienced, and intelligent support. They understand what we are up against out there. Long ship times for replacement units have been an issue at times, but that seems to be largely resolved as well. I have the luxury of having gained some inside contacts that get things done for me, but even without I can say support is great. And those insiders never complain about my direct contacts even when I borderline abuse the privilege. Go ahead and call me an Enphase fanboy if you will, but it has served my business interests well. I've been working on Enphase systems since 2009, and I can say without reservation that this company knows how to train customer support staff. I have had negative experiences with every major string inverter manufacturer's customer support in the past (although a few still have my respect). With over a decade using Enphase I can't recall a single negative customer service experience that made me want to look elsewhere (although phone wait times and shipping delays for RMA units were minor irritations at times). They listened to their customers and resolved the issues. I have called Enphase literally hundreds of times and never encountered an employee that was rude, indifferent, or even one that lacked the requisite knowledge to communicate with me intelligently about my issue. It's actually quite remarkable. Tangent: Other than cost perhaps, I just don't understand the MLPE debate. If you are going to go the MLPE route, why not go all the way? I'm not opposed to SolarEdge at all, but I'm very happy my installed base is tiny given the recent customer service and hardware issues I have heard about. Note: I own no ENPH stock. What am I thinking?!?! Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 4:31 PM Kirpal wrote: > Hi Folks....Does anyone know how to reach SolarEdge support. We have > numerous sites with issues and have been on phone hold for well over 3 > hours. Multiple days in a row. No one answers. We tired their online chat > tool and we are #49 on the wait list to be addressed. This is pretty > ridiculous. I am wondering if they are going out of business? No way to > get support? Any inside contacts would be appreciated. > Historically we have enjoyed using their products and even customer > support. They used to offer a call back feature that kept your place in > line...But they stopped offering that feature. I know this is echoing > others experiences recently. Also the present policy of waiting 10 > days to send replacements doesn't sit well with our customers. > What other inverter/optimizer combos are folks using that are proving > reliable and consistent with good installer support. I have noted many > complaints regarding Tigo and SMA paired together. recently on the wrenches > list....What are folks using with Fronius. Lately their tech support was a > pleasure to work with and we didn't even have to ask for reimbursement when > replacing an inverter....Their policy is to send payment when they receive > defective inverter back. I was impressed. Quick easy knowledgeable techs > as well. > Other suggestions are appreciated. > Thanks. > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Aug 5 17:30:59 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 14:30:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirpal: I have only one Solaredge system installed. I called tech support Friday last twice and spoke to tech support in less than 2 minutes both times. This was about 4:30 PM PDT. I know this does not help you but it gives some more data to the discussion. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kirpal *Sent:* Monday, August 5, 2019 1:31 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Hi Folks....Does anyone know how to reach SolarEdge support. We have numerous sites with issues and have been on phone hold for well over 3 hours. Multiple days in a row. No one answers. We tired their online chat tool and we are #49 on the wait list to be addressed. This is pretty ridiculous. I am wondering if they are going out of business? No way to get support? Any inside contacts would be appreciated. Historically we have enjoyed using their products and even customer support. They used to offer a call back feature that kept your place in line...But they stopped offering that feature. I know this is echoing others experiences recently. Also the present policy of waiting 10 days to send replacements doesn't sit well with our customers. What other inverter/optimizer combos are folks using that are proving reliable and consistent with good installer support. I have noted many complaints regarding Tigo and SMA paired together. recently on the wrenches list....What are folks using with Fronius. Lately their tech support was a pleasure to work with and we didn't even have to ask for reimbursement when replacing an inverter....Their policy is to send payment when they receive defective inverter back. I was impressed. Quick easy knowledgeable techs as well. Other suggestions are appreciated. Thanks. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tom at solar-biz.com Tue Aug 6 00:31:25 2019 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 04:31:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC-DC converter for SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why don’t you go solar direct no batteries? and use AC for your back up as the pump will do both. My experience says at least 60VDC to run the pump so 24 volt battery won’t do it. Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [TSBLOGODPIx500x200] tom at solar-biz.com MAIN TOLL FREE: 888-826-0939 DIRECT: 888-503-6772 International: 001-575-539-2111 PANAMA: 507-836-5588 X 122 FAX: 520-844-8442 www.thesolarbiz.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Gary Higbee Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 12:18 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC-DC converter for SQFlex Hi Wrenches, I’m assisting a customer and well person in replacing a failed Lorentz ETApump (after 15 years of intermittent use). We’re looking for a quality DC-DC converter to power a not-yet- ordered Grundfos SQFlex 6 SQF-3 from a 24 V Surrette battery bank (wish it was 48!). The pump draws a max of 8.4A and the curves say we’ll need about 600 watts so I figure we’d want at least 70 volts out. Ideal would be a higher DC output, say 200V (save a couple hundred feet of larger copper, greater efficiency) and at least 3A (see questions). The primary power source will be 240V AC but my customer wants a fallback for battery operation. We plan to use the Grundfos IO 101 SQFlex switch box, which will switch to DC if the AC fails. Also the CU 200 SQFlex control unit, so we can accommodate the existing float switch up the hill, etc. The Grundfos tech person I spoke with today said the DC system should be able to supply 8.4A, regardless of the DC voltage.The pump curve says we need 600W for maximum performance at the lift we’ve got. It seems to me that if we’ve got 200V and need 600W we’d be drawing 3A. Yet if the Grundfos factory line is there should be 8.4A available that’s 1680W. The tech guy said he didn’t have specific information why we’d need 8.4A regardless of pump input voltage. The Grundfos Product Guide says: Max. ratings are as follows: • Maximum power input (P1) of 1400 W • maximum current of 8.4 A • maximum speed of 3600 rpm (think I read somewhere it’s 3000 rpm for this helical rotor model) The pump delivers its maximum performance when one of the above parameters is reached. Two questions: 1) Do any of you have experience running the SQFlex on DC, and what to make of the 8.4A at any input voltage factory recommendation? Maybe basic amps/volts/power calculations aren’t applicable given the pump electronics? 2) Are you aware of any DC-DC converters that will get us from a nominal 24V battery bank to 200V, or somewhere between 70 and 200V, with an appropriate current limiting amp rating to get us at least 600W (depending on thoughts regarding the above question)? Thank you, Gary Gary Higbee Windstream Solar Oregon License 17LRT Renewable Energy Consulting gary at windstreamsolar.com 541-954-3881 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6229 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 13:27:19 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 07:27:19 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC-DC converter for SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches There used to be a product that changed battery strings from parallel to series to boost voltage, l know the patent holder, let me ask if it can work here that is if there are enough's batteries. Jerry On Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:17 AM Gary Higbee wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I’m assisting a customer and well person in replacing a failed Lorentz > ETApump (after 15 years of intermittent use). We’re looking for a quality > DC-DC converter to power a not-yet- ordered Grundfos SQFlex 6 SQF-3 from a > 24 V Surrette battery bank (wish it was 48!). The pump draws a max of 8.4A > and the curves say we’ll need about 600 watts so I figure we’d want at > least 70 volts out. Ideal would be a higher DC output, say 200V (save a > couple hundred feet of larger copper, greater efficiency) and at least 3A > (see questions). > > The primary power source will be 240V AC but my customer wants a fallback > for battery operation. We plan to use the Grundfos IO 101 SQFlex switch > box, which will switch to DC if the AC fails. Also the CU 200 SQFlex > control unit, so we can accommodate the existing float switch up the hill, > etc. > > The Grundfos tech person I spoke with today said the DC system should be > able to supply 8.4A, regardless of the DC voltage.The pump curve says we > need 600W for maximum performance at the lift we’ve got. It seems to me > that if we’ve got 200V and need 600W we’d be drawing 3A. Yet if the > Grundfos factory line is there should be 8.4A available that’s 1680W. The > tech guy said he didn’t have specific information why we’d need 8.4A > regardless of pump input voltage. > > The Grundfos Product Guide says: > > *Max. ratings are as follows:* > *• Maximum power input (P1) of 1400 W* > *• maximum current of 8.4 A* > *• maximum speed of 3600 rpm *(think I read somewhere it’s 3000 rpm for > this helical rotor model) > > *The pump delivers its maximum performance when **one of the above > parameters is reached.* > > Two questions: > > 1) Do any of you have experience running the SQFlex on DC, and what to > make of the 8.4A at any input voltage factory recommendation? Maybe basic > amps/volts/power calculations aren’t applicable given the pump electronics? > > 2) Are you aware of any DC-DC converters that will get us from a nominal > 24V battery bank to 200V, or somewhere between 70 and 200V, with an > appropriate current limiting amp rating to get us at least 600W (depending > on thoughts regarding the above question)? > > > Thank you, > > Gary > > Gary Higbee > Windstream Solar > Oregon License 17LRT > Renewable Energy Consulting > gary at windstreamsolar.com > 541-954-3881 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Aug 6 13:19:08 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2019 10:19:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC-DC converter for SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9ad0c2c0f3c7645f4e3a2621e6f77220@127.0.0.1> Use a genset for back-up and power it as you said from 240vac inverter. Less is more and a failed DD-DC converter could damage the SQ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 04:31:25 +0000, Tom Duffy wrote: Why don't you go solar direct no batteries? and use AC for your back up as the pump will do both. My experience says at least 60VDC to run the pump so 24 volt battery won't do it. Kind regards TOM DUFFY _SENIOR SOLAR DESIGN ENGINEER_ MAIN TOLL FREE: 888-826-0939 DIRECT: 888-503-6772 INTERNATIONAL: 001-575-539-2111 PANAMA: 507-836-5588 X 122 FAX: 520-844-8442 _WWW.THESOLARBIZ.COM_ FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Gary Higbee SENT: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 12:18 PM TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] DC-DC converter for SQFlex Hi Wrenches, I'm assisting a customer and well person in replacing a failed Lorentz ETApump (after 15 years of intermittent use). We're looking for a quality DC-DC converter to power a not-yet- ordered Grundfos SQFlex 6 SQF-3 from a 24 V Surrette battery bank (wish it was 48!). The pump draws a max of 8.4A and the curves say we'll need about 600 watts so I figure we'd want at least 70 volts out. Ideal would be a higher DC output, say 200V (save a couple hundred feet of larger copper, greater efficiency) and at least 3A (see questions). The primary power source will be 240V AC but my customer wants a fallback for battery operation. We plan to use the Grundfos IO 101 SQFlex switch box, which will switch to DC if the AC fails. Also the CU 200 SQFlex control unit, so we can accommodate the existing float switch up the hill, etc. The Grundfos tech person I spoke with today said the DC system should be able to supply 8.4A, regardless of the DC voltage.The pump curve says we need 600W for maximum performance at the lift we've got. It seems to me that if we've got 200V and need 600W we'd be drawing 3A. Yet if the Grundfos factory line is there should be 8.4A available that's 1680W. The tech guy said he didn't have specific information why we'd need 8.4A regardless of pump input voltage. The Grundfos Product Guide says: MAX. RATINGS ARE AS FOLLOWS: * MAXIMUM POWER INPUT (P1) OF 1400 W * MAXIMUM CURRENT OF 8.4 A * MAXIMUM SPEED OF 3600 RPM (think I read somewhere it's 3000 rpm for this helical rotor model) THE PUMP DELIVERS ITS MAXIMUM PERFORMANCE WHEN ONE OF THE ABOVE PARAMETERS IS REACHED. Two questions: 1) Do any of you have experience running the SQFlex on DC, and what to make of the 8.4A at any input voltage factory recommendation? Maybe basic amps/volts/power calculations aren't applicable given the pump electronics? 2) Are you aware of any DC-DC converters that will get us from a nominal 24V battery bank to 200V, or somewhere between 70 and 200V, with an appropriate current limiting amp rating to get us at least 600W (depending on thoughts regarding the above question)? Thank you, Gary Gary Higbee Windstream Solar Oregon License 17LRT Renewable Energy Consulting gary at windstreamsolar.com [3] 541-954-3881 -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:gary at windstreamsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6229 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Aug 6 21:50:58 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 18:50:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian AC inputs Message-ID: <6be3f0b0a85367ccf1552e4766cad188@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I was wiling away the time perusing a Radian (GS4048/GS8048) quick-start guide that came with a recently acquired set of Radians. I was quite surprised to see the AC inputs, outputs and throughputs are shown in the quick-start guide as rated at 60 Amp AC. The guide also indicates a minimum wire size of #6AWG (does not specify CU or AL, will assume CU). I always remembered that rating to be 50 Amps AC. I checked old and new installation manuals and they all say 50 Amps AC. Am I missing something? The guide also says: “Only one AC source can be wired at a time; use an external selector switch if more than one source is available.” It really sounds like this section was cut and pasted from an FX/FXR manual by mistake. Anyone catch this? Lones, you out there? William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 21:30:12 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 19:30:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120/240 to 3 phase 120/208 Message-ID: Hi all Is there a way to convert a 120/240v generator to a 120/208 3 phase output? Thx Jay From markf at berkeleysolar.com Tue Aug 6 22:59:37 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 19:59:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120/240 to 3 phase 120/208 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0d9cae9b-fe55-a68d-2938-63961ac1ecb7@berkeleysolar.com> Years ago I used something called a RotoPhase Phase Converter to supply some 3ph equipment on a site that only had 1ph (2ph?). Not efficient. On 8/6/2019 6:30 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > Is there a way to convert a 120/240v generator to a 120/208 3 phase output? > > Thx > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From reellison at gmail.com Wed Aug 7 04:34:21 2019 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 04:34:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120/240 to 3 phase 120/208 In-Reply-To: <0d9cae9b-fe55-a68d-2938-63961ac1ecb7@berkeleysolar.com> References: <0d9cae9b-fe55-a68d-2938-63961ac1ecb7@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <87948B65-9CF2-465E-9F96-1688714BE767@gmail.com> Not internally unless it is what is called a 12 wire reconnectable Those usually have info on the label that give specs and connection info If you open the cover there is a group of posts and a bunch of wire ends that you move to the posts that give you the output you need Heaven help you if the labels have fallen off or you can’t read them In that case, close the cover and walk away because you will hate yourself at some point The reconnectables are real rare in the smaller generators these days If I remember correctly you generally lose about 40% output when you’ve change the connections, seems that is going from 3 ph to single phase. I had a couple Detroit Diesel powered 300 hz generators around for a while Nothing but scrap metal and copper, not reconnectable. Just dead weight. Phase converters are not efficient but are an option for small loads Hope this helps, Bob Ellison > On Aug 6, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > > Years ago I used something called a RotoPhase Phase Converter to supply some 3ph equipment on a site that only had 1ph (2ph?). Not efficient. > >> On 8/6/2019 6:30 PM, Jay wrote: >> Hi all >> >> Is there a way to convert a 120/240v generator to a 120/208 3 phase output? >> >> Thx >> >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Aug 7 07:51:43 2019 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 07:51:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120/240 to 3 phase 120/208 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, I just did it yesterday, but only if it is a 12 wire alternator. If you open the connection box on top of the alternator, you will be able to reconfigure the alternator. However, that's only possible if the generator was built using a three phase alternator connected in zig-zag to give single phase - which is very common. All the big generators I order are built this way. If you give me more info on the generator I can tell you how to do it. https://www.smokstak.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3483&d=1125167403 On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 10:20 PM Jay wrote: > Hi all > > Is there a way to convert a 120/240v generator to a 120/208 3 phase output? > > Thx > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Aug 7 01:15:34 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 01:15:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120/240 to 3 phase 120/208 Message-ID: There are both rotary and static phase converters that can do this. They are sized based on the loads and commonly used in home machine shops and farms.American rotary is a manufacturer I have interacted with.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: JayDate: Tue, Aug 6, 2019 10:20 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] 120/240 to 3 phase 120/208Hi all Is there a way to convert a 120/240v generator to a 120/208 3 phase output? Thx Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 23:33:45 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 21:33:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120/240 to 3 phase 120/208 In-Reply-To: <0d9cae9b-fe55-a68d-2938-63961ac1ecb7@berkeleysolar.com> References: <0d9cae9b-fe55-a68d-2938-63961ac1ecb7@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: I was thinking that there might be some kind of solid state electronic version now? Jay > On Aug 6, 2019, at 8:59 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > > Years ago I used something called a RotoPhase Phase Converter to supply some 3ph equipment on a site that only had 1ph (2ph?). Not efficient. > >> On 8/6/2019 6:30 PM, Jay wrote: >> Hi all >> >> Is there a way to convert a 120/240v generator to a 120/208 3 phase output? >> >> Thx >> >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 8 08:41:23 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 08:41:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M-250 Source Message-ID: Does anyone have a source for discontinued M-series microinverters? I'm starting to get a steady stream of clients that want to add to their systems. Adding a small quantity of IQ microinverters is not cost effective due to the cost of the Envoy. We designed many M-series systems to accommodate add-ons to non-fully populated branch circuits to allow for cost effective add-ons. We're having a hard time fulfilling that promise due to lack of M250s out there. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 8 09:32:45 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 09:32:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M-250 Source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That makes me a bit nervous, but I guess I could contact in phase and make sure that the serial number has not been used. On Thu, Aug 8, 2019, 9:25 AM Glenn Burt wrote: > I bought a few on eBay. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Jason Szumlanski > *Date: *Thu, Aug 8, 2019 8:41 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Enphase M-250 Source > > Does anyone have a source for discontinued M-series microinverters? I'm > starting to get a steady stream of clients that want to add to their > systems. > > Adding a small quantity of IQ microinverters is not cost effective due to > the cost of the Envoy. We designed many M-series systems to accommodate > add-ons to non-fully populated branch circuits to allow for cost effective > add-ons. We're having a hard time fulfilling that promise due to lack of > M250s out there. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Thu Aug 8 09:36:22 2019 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 09:36:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M-250 Source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I see Kinect Solar send me price lists with 215's for sale for $32 On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 9:33 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > That makes me a bit nervous, but I guess I could contact in phase and make > sure that the serial number has not been used. > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019, 9:25 AM Glenn Burt wrote: > >> I bought a few on eBay. >> >> -Glenn >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> *From: *Jason Szumlanski >> *Date: *Thu, Aug 8, 2019 8:41 AM >> *To: *RE-wrenches; >> *Cc: * >> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Enphase M-250 Source >> >> Does anyone have a source for discontinued M-series microinverters? I'm >> starting to get a steady stream of clients that want to add to their >> systems. >> >> Adding a small quantity of IQ microinverters is not cost effective due to >> the cost of the Envoy. We designed many M-series systems to accommodate >> add-ons to non-fully populated branch circuits to allow for cost effective >> add-ons. We're having a hard time fulfilling that promise due to lack of >> M250s out there. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Sunny Regards, Gary Easton *Appalachian Renewable Power **Celebrating over 10 years in business* 10131 Haga Ridge Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV #031508-29 T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” ~Gandhi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Aug 8 09:25:00 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 09:25:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M-250 Source Message-ID: I bought a few on eBay.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Jason SzumlanskiDate: Thu, Aug 8, 2019 8:41 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Enphase M-250 SourceDoes anyone have a source for discontinued M-series microinverters? I'm starting to get a steady stream of clients that want to add to their systems.Adding a small quantity of IQ microinverters is not cost effective due to the cost of the Envoy. We designed many M-series systems to accommodate add-ons to non-fully populated branch circuits to allow for cost effective add-ons. We're having a hard time fulfilling that promise due to lack of M250s out there.Jason SzumlanskiFlorida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Thu Aug 8 16:14:16 2019 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 20:14:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian AC inputs In-Reply-To: <6be3f0b0a85367ccf1552e4766cad188@mail.gmail.com> References: <6be3f0b0a85367ccf1552e4766cad188@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8f6f649a4e7444c1b65691b126df60ab@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hi William Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Good catch on the observations in the Radian Quick Start Guide. Link to Quick Start Guide http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/inverter_chargers/radian_8048a_4048a/gs_8048a_4048a_quick_start.pdf Link to the Radian Installation manual http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/inverter_chargers/radian_8048a_4048a/gs_8048a_4048a_install.pdf The QST statement Only one AC source can be wired at a time; use an external selector switch if more than one source is available.” Is incorrect. All Radian Inverters have 2 ac inputs, an external selector switch is unnecessary. That almost has to come from the FX inverters. I have notified the Technical Manual Writer and he will change that . Thank you On the other observations I will have to split hairs. The easiest first. In the Quick start Guide We do recommend #6 AWG THHN copper wire under the heading AC Wire Sizes and Torque Values In the Quick Start Guide Under AC Wiring Notes It is stated: The Transfer Relay is rated 60 Aac…. Then recommends up to a maximum 60 amp breaker. This is not a false statement. In the Radian Installation Manual On Page 38 it is stated: All overcurrent devices in Permanent Installations must be sized for 50 Aac or less. So perhaps a little history The relay is the same ac input relay that was used on the Trace SW inverter, and on the Xantrex SW and SW + Inverters. It is rated at 60 amp pass through. In the GS installation manual we state a 50 Amp breaker because that is what we use in the GS load centers. Throughout OutBack’s history the ac breaker size has changed between 50 and 60 amps. The relay itself has not changed. I happen to like the 50 amp breaker as it should trip before the relays get stressed. I hope this helps. Take Care All From: William Miller Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 6:51 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Lones Tuss Subject: Radian AC inputs ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ Friends: I was wiling away the time perusing a Radian (GS4048/GS8048) quick-start guide that came with a recently acquired set of Radians. I was quite surprised to see the AC inputs, outputs and throughputs are shown in the quick-start guide as rated at 60 Amp AC. The guide also indicates a minimum wire size of #6AWG (does not specify CU or AL, will assume CU). I always remembered that rating to be 50 Amps AC. I checked old and new installation manuals and they all say 50 Amps AC. Am I missing something? The guide also says: “Only one AC source can be wired at a time; use an external selector switch if more than one source is available.” It really sounds like this section was cut and pasted from an FX/FXR manual by mistake. Anyone catch this? Lones, you out there? William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Aug 8 19:41:19 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 17:41:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian AC inputs In-Reply-To: <8f6f649a4e7444c1b65691b126df60ab@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> References: <6be3f0b0a85367ccf1552e4766cad188@mail.gmail.com> <8f6f649a4e7444c1b65691b126df60ab@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: To add to this point,  a customer inadvertently wired a 100 amp 240 vac Tesla charger circuit into an Outback backup system.  We later had to rebuild the inverters because they had cooked the 60 amp rated transfer relays.  The 50 amp breakers had tripped occasionally, but apparently not enough to save the relays.  The relays were not completely gone, but were no longer reliable. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/8/19 2:14 PM, Lones Tuss wrote: > > I happen to like the 50 amp breaker as it should trip before the > relays get stressed. > > I hope this helps. > > Take Care All > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri Aug 9 14:36:46 2019 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 13:36:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone try the new SMA battery inverter with Automatic Backup Unit? Couple of questions. Message-ID: <02cb01d54ee1$66514d30$32f3e790$@solarcentex.com> Excited to use this and even more excited that one of our sales reps with a SMA system has offered to be our guinea pig! The ABU looks great - just got one to the shop today - it has transfer switch with full 200A capability, auto-transformer, easy inputs for BB-inverter, PV inverter, and smart meter with CTs built for smart energy management. Couple of questions for those that might know, but does the AC coupling of the PV inverter plus the 6.0 BB-inverter mean I might possibly push their combined full output to downstream loads. Even though 200-amp capable ABU, hard to see how I do whole-house backup. We think we get to "inside the walls backup only" which is good except during middle of summer. A bit more than StorEdge power output. Does anyone know the protocol for decreasing the output of the PV inverter when batteries are full? I think it is freq shifting but the diagram does show communication via the home router between the PV inverter and the BB-inverter. I'd think if this was a necessary communication, then SMA would have insisted on a hard-wire connection. Any ideas on what might be shared and for what purpose. This also leads to last question and if freq shifting is the mechanism for throttling back PV inverter output, then I'm thinking that using any brand inverter would work. Look forward to answers and to sharing more as I put this at the home of our Guinea pig...I means sales rep! Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com www.solarcentex.com https://www.facebook.com/SolarCentex Top-Rated Solar Installer in Texas by Solar Reviews -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 48535 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Mon Aug 12 09:36:23 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 13:36:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone try the new SMA battery inverter with Automatic Backup Unit? Couple of questions. In-Reply-To: <02cb01d54ee1$66514d30$32f3e790$@solarcentex.com> References: <02cb01d54ee1$66514d30$32f3e790$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Howard - Some information related to your questions: Yes, with AC coupling the output of the Sunny Boy Storage 6.0 (6.0kW) plus PV system is available. For example, 13.7kW with SBS 6.0 at full output and Sunny Boy 7.7 also at full output (obviously daytime). With 3 of the BYD Battery Box 10kWh units, SBS system scales up to slightly more than 30kWh usable storage. Yes, understanding and planning to customers loads is very important and will determine the customer's happiness with their system. The 50A breaker for PV on the ABU is appropriate for 40A continuous, or 240Vx40A = 9,600W. The PV can be attached via breaker in protected loads panel downstream, but to ensure the SBS can throttle the PV production rapidly enough when offgrid, there still IS a PV size limit. If considering having more than 9.6kW of PV, please contact SMA Applications Engineering group. When offgrid, the Sunny Boy Storage uses Frequency Shift Power Control (FSPC, like the Sunny Island). Some newer inverters will have Freq-Watt features enabled, "older" inverters will stop exporting power when frequency goes above 60.5Hz. Best to check with manufacturer on how any non-SMA inverter will respond - throttle or turn off. The datasheet is showing a Sunny Boy with the hardwire communications as this provides for faster transition/smoother throttling and also supports the zero-export (grid-tied) use case. For zero export, the SBS cannot adjust frequency and it requires a communication signal to control the PV power. This requires a current Sunny Boy (likely possible with TL-US-22 as well, but I have not seen an example of this). Feel free to contact me at Training at SMA-America.com for any more information. Best regards - Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Howard Arey Sent: Friday, August 9, 2019 12:37 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Anyone try the new SMA battery inverter with Automatic Backup Unit? Couple of questions. Excited to use this and even more excited that one of our sales reps with a SMA system has offered to be our guinea pig! The ABU looks great - just got one to the shop today - it has transfer switch with full 200A capability, auto-transformer, easy inputs for BB-inverter, PV inverter, and smart meter with CTs built for smart energy management. Couple of questions for those that might know, but does the AC coupling of the PV inverter plus the 6.0 BB-inverter mean I might possibly push their combined full output to downstream loads. Even though 200-amp capable ABU, hard to see how I do whole-house backup. We think we get to "inside the walls backup only" which is good except during middle of summer. A bit more than StorEdge power output. Does anyone know the protocol for decreasing the output of the PV inverter when batteries are full? I think it is freq shifting but the diagram does show communication via the home router between the PV inverter and the BB-inverter. I'd think if this was a necessary communication, then SMA would have insisted on a hard-wire connection. Any ideas on what might be shared and for what purpose. This also leads to last question and if freq shifting is the mechanism for throttling back PV inverter output, then I'm thinking that using any brand inverter would work. Look forward to answers and to sharing more as I put this at the home of our Guinea pig...I means sales rep! Howard "Scot" Arey Owner, Solar CenTex NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com www.solarcentex.com https://www.facebook.com/SolarCentex Top-Rated Solar Installer in Texas by Solar Reviews [Solar Centex Logo - No Back] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 17785 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Aug 12 11:04:07 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 08:04:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid labeling questions Message-ID: Hi All My question is about labeling the following. I’ve got a fully offgrid system enclosed in a dedicated power shed, 250’ away from the house. AC is routed to a main panel external on the house. So no need to enter power shed to shut off the house. 48v battery 150v max pole mounts 120/240v, outback Backup generator installed just outside of the power shed. I’m confused as to what labeling I need in the power shed. And Can I get away with a “authorization personal only” on the door instead? And if so what would be the code reference Thx Jay From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Aug 12 13:52:10 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 10:52:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid labeling questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25bd6ab8ebef7e8dd5074a4abd29bd37@127.0.0.1> Is it going to be inspected? If yes, do what the inspector wants! If "no" or after the inspector is done, label the system breakers, warn about the battery, label disconnects and things that would useful to the owner or anyone else, like me:) Do what is customary in the county. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 08:04:07 -0700, Jay wrote: > Hi All > > My question is about labeling the following. > > I’ve got a fully offgrid system enclosed in a dedicated power shed, 250’ > away from the house. > AC is routed to a main panel external on the house. So no need to enter > power shed to shut off the house. > > 48v battery > 150v max pole mounts > 120/240v, outback > Backup generator installed just outside of the power shed. > > I’m confused as to what labeling I need in the power shed. > And > Can I get away with a “authorization personal only” on the door instead? > And if so what would be the code reference > > Thx > > Jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Aug 12 18:44:37 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 18:44:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid labeling questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006401d5515f$874e0d40$95ea27c0$@glbcc.com> Hi Jay, I don't think it is as easy as an 'authorized personnel only sign'. As an energy source, the batteries are going to require specific labelling. Certainly your AHJ has the final word, however if the structures are insured, any failure will be scrutinized closely during a claim. I am assuming NEC 2017 applies to you. If so here are a few references: 480.7(D) - DC Disconnect Methods (D) Notification. The disconnecting means shall be legibly marked in the field. A label with the marking shall be placed in a conspicuous location near the battery if a disconnecting means is not provided. The marking shall be of sufficient durability to withstand the environment involved and shall include the following: (1) Nominal battery voltage (2) Maximum available short-circuit current derived from the stationary battery system (3) Date the short-circuit current calculation was performed (4) The battery disconnecting means shall be marked in accordance with 110.16. Informational Note No. 1: Battery equipment suppliers can provide information about short-circuit current on any particular battery model. Informational Note No. 2: The available short-current marking(s) addressed in 480.7(D)(2) is related to required short-circuit current ratings of equipment. NFPA 70E-2015, Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace, provides assistance in determining the severity of potential exposure, planning safe work practices, and selecting personal protective equipment. 690.71 refers you to 706 706.7 Disconnecting means (basically a duplication of 480.7) (D) Notification. The disconnecting means shall be legibly marked in the field. The marking shall meet the requirements of 110.21(B) and shall include the following: (1) Nominal ESS voltage (2) Maximum available short-circuit current derived from the ESS (3) The associated clearing time or arc duration based on the available short-circuit current from the ESS and associated overcurrent protective devices if applicable (4) Date the calculation was performed Exception: The labeling in 706.7(D)(1) through (D)(4) shall not be required if an arc flash label is applied in accordance with acceptable industry practice. Informational Note No. 1: Industry practices for equipment labeling are described in NFPA 70E-2015, Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace. This standard provides specific criteria for developing arc-flash labels for equipment that provides nominal system voltage, incident energy levels, arc-flash boundaries, minimum required levels of personal protective equipment, and so forth. Informational Note No. 2: Battery equipment suppliers can provide information about short-circuit current on any particular battery model. 706.11 Directory. ESS shall be indicated by 706.11(A) and (B). The markings or labels shall be in accordance with 110.21(B). (A) Directory. A permanent plaque or directory denoting all electric power sources on or in the premises shall be installed at each service equipment location and at locations of all electric power production sources capable of being interconnected. Exception: Installations with large numbers of power production sources shall be permitted to be designated by groups. (B) Facilities with Stand-Alone Systems. Any structure or building with an ESS that is not connected to a utility service source and is a stand-alone system shall have a permanent plaque or directory installed on the exterior of the building or structure at a readily visible location acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction. The plaque or directory shall indicate the location of system disconnecting means and that the structure contains a stand-alone electrical power system. Hope this helps. -Glenn -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 11:04 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Offgrid labeling questions Hi All My question is about labeling the following. I’ve got a fully offgrid system enclosed in a dedicated power shed, 250’ away from the house. AC is routed to a main panel external on the house. So no need to enter power shed to shut off the house. 48v battery 150v max pole mounts 120/240v, outback Backup generator installed just outside of the power shed. I’m confused as to what labeling I need in the power shed. And Can I get away with a “authorization personal only” on the door instead? And if so what would be the code reference Thx Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Aug 13 10:08:51 2019 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 08:08:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial modules Message-ID: <00dc01d551e0$a30781c0$e9168540$@OasisMontana.com> Hello people: We have a customer with their heart set on bi-facial modules for their residential project. Despite the lack of import tariffs, they are not easily found. Does anyone know of a company offering these? Thanks! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phil at insoltechsolar.com Tue Aug 13 11:13:33 2019 From: phil at insoltechsolar.com (Philip Lawes Insoltech) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 08:13:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial modules In-Reply-To: <00dc01d551e0$a30781c0$e9168540$@OasisMontana.com> References: <00dc01d551e0$a30781c0$e9168540$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <010801d551e9$ac905e70$05b11b50$@insoltechsolar.com> Longi and Sunpreme Philip N Lawes 172 Wave St. Laguna Beach, Ca. 92651 Office: 949-497-6300 Cell: 949-510-0687 Email: Phil at Insoltechsolar.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of chris at OasisMontana.com Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:09 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial modules Hello people: We have a customer with their heart set on bi-facial modules for their residential project. Despite the lack of import tariffs, they are not easily found. Does anyone know of a company offering these? Thanks! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 40316 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ryan.harkins at energycraft.com Tue Aug 13 13:31:07 2019 From: ryan.harkins at energycraft.com (Ryan Harkins) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 12:31:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial modules In-Reply-To: <00dc01d551e0$a30781c0$e9168540$@OasisMontana.com> References: <00dc01d551e0$a30781c0$e9168540$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <963730FB-31DE-4865-8970-3442B051EB85@energycraft.com> Hey Chris, Speed Solar, Inc. in Deerfield, WI stocks bifacial modules from Adani/Mundra Solar. (608) 764-4900 al at speedsolar.net Ask for Al or Cal. Now mounting is the trick! Best, Ryan > On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:08 AM, wrote: > > Hello people: > > We have a customer with their heart set on bi-facial modules for their residential project. Despite the lack of import tariffs, they are not easily found. Does anyone know of a company offering these? Thanks! > > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.siegenthaler at gmail.com Tue Aug 13 14:16:41 2019 From: jon.siegenthaler at gmail.com (Jon Siegenthaler) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 13:16:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Physical of Electrical Interlock Message-ID: Hello wrenchers, I have a client we're building for who is going to have installed two of the SolarEdge Storedge inverters with two of LG Chem RESU batteries. This electrical system also has a backup generator which then requires there to be an interlock between the inverters and the generator. I was hoping because this was a zero export system (as required or by punishment of paying the utility for your overproduction) that the SolarEdge smart meter would detect and not export to the generator, but as a fail-safe it would be better not to trust a $300 meter against a $10,000 generator and install an interlock. My question is; has anyone found an interlock that would work with this system? From my understanding the inverters would need to switched off, but then the dedicated panels that the inverters are powering would need to be transferred over to the generator power. The simplest answer I can come up with is a panel with no bussing (mounted on din rail) on one side with 4-2 pole breakers, each is set consists of 2-2 pole breakers with jumpers on the backside so that the inverter has a jumper to the dedicated load panel breaker. On the other side of the panel would be either on a bus or also with jumpers that went to 2-2 pole breakers for the generator in and out and then also the 2-2 pole breakers for the dedicated load panels. Then there would be an interlock that slides from left to right to control which system was on, this being either PV or generator. Thanks ahead of time for any help or product suggestions, Jon Siegenthaler -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Tue Aug 13 14:29:51 2019 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 11:29:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial modules In-Reply-To: <963730FB-31DE-4865-8970-3442B051EB85@energycraft.com> References: <00dc01d551e0$a30781c0$e9168540$@OasisMontana.com> <963730FB-31DE-4865-8970-3442B051EB85@energycraft.com> Message-ID: LG makes bifacials. BayWa will have a stock of them. good luck. Chad Waits President 520-270-4873 On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 10:31 AM Ryan Harkins wrote: > Hey Chris, > > Speed Solar, Inc. in Deerfield, WI stocks bifacial modules from > Adani/Mundra Solar. > > (608) 764-4900 > al at speedsolar.net > > Ask for Al or Cal. > > Now mounting is the trick! > > Best, > Ryan > > > > On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:08 AM, chris at oasismontana.com> wrote: > > Hello people: > > > > We have a customer with their heart set on bi-facial modules for their > residential project. Despite the lack of import tariffs, they are not > easily found. Does anyone know of a company offering these? Thanks! > > > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > *www.oasismontana.com * > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Aug 13 14:30:17 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 12:30:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Physical of Electrical Interlock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55da6bf7-c24a-64bd-496b-b5402524b0f1@solarray.com> What amp rating do you need?  Midnite Solar makes a small 30 amp manual transfer switch, while Reliance (via Northern Tool) makes 60 and 100 amp models.  Or are you looking for automatic transfer?  Generac makes a bunch of 100 to 200 amp rated transfer switches.  Square D and others make some bigger load break rated stuff but it gets big and expensive. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/13/19 12:16 PM, Jon Siegenthaler wrote: > Hello wrenchers, > I have a client we're building for who is going to have installed two > of the SolarEdge Storedge inverters with two of LG Chem RESU > batteries. This electrical system also has a backup generator which > then requires there to be an interlock between the inverters and the > generator. I was hoping because this was a zero export system (as > required or by punishment of paying the utility for your > overproduction) that the SolarEdge smart meter would detect and not > export to the generator, but as a fail-safe it would be better not to > trust a $300 meter against a $10,000 generator and install an interlock. > > My question is; has anyone found an interlock that would work with > this system? From my understanding the inverters would need to > switched off, but then the dedicated panels that the inverters are > powering would need to be transferred over to the generator power. The > simplest answer I can come up with is a panel with no bussing (mounted > on din rail) on one side with 4-2 pole breakers, each is set consists > of 2-2 pole breakers with jumpers on the backside so that the inverter > has a jumper to the dedicated load panel breaker. On the other side of > the panel would be either on a bus or also with jumpers that went to > 2-2 pole breakers for the generator in and out and then also the 2-2 > pole breakers for the dedicated load panels. Then there would be an > interlock that slides from left to right to control which system was > on, this being either PV or generator. > > Thanks ahead of time for any help or product suggestions, > > Jon Siegenthaler > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 13 15:09:45 2019 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 19:09:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Physical of Electrical Interlock In-Reply-To: <55da6bf7-c24a-64bd-496b-b5402524b0f1@solarray.com> References: , <55da6bf7-c24a-64bd-496b-b5402524b0f1@solarray.com> Message-ID: I really like everything I've gotten my hands on from Reliance (out of Wisconsin).. They will make anything you need. I like backfeeding breakers onto a bussing, as it seems like a more simple approach and I am trying to keep things easy for any future humans that find themselves troubleshooting a wacky system.. But you are correct, that your scenario sounds like at least one manual transfer switch will have to be thrown to partition the gen-set from the PV.. Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 11:30:17 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Physical of Electrical Interlock What amp rating do you need? Midnite Solar makes a small 30 amp manual transfer switch, while Reliance (via Northern Tool) makes 60 and 100 amp models. Or are you looking for automatic transfer? Generac makes a bunch of 100 to 200 amp rated transfer switches. Square D and others make some bigger load break rated stuff but it gets big and expensive. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/13/19 12:16 PM, Jon Siegenthaler wrote: Hello wrenchers, I have a client we're building for who is going to have installed two of the SolarEdge Storedge inverters with two of LG Chem RESU batteries. This electrical system also has a backup generator which then requires there to be an interlock between the inverters and the generator. I was hoping because this was a zero export system (as required or by punishment of paying the utility for your overproduction) that the SolarEdge smart meter would detect and not export to the generator, but as a fail-safe it would be better not to trust a $300 meter against a $10,000 generator and install an interlock. My question is; has anyone found an interlock that would work with this system? From my understanding the inverters would need to switched off, but then the dedicated panels that the inverters are powering would need to be transferred over to the generator power. The simplest answer I can come up with is a panel with no bussing (mounted on din rail) on one side with 4-2 pole breakers, each is set consists of 2-2 pole breakers with jumpers on the backside so that the inverter has a jumper to the dedicated load panel breaker. On the other side of the panel would be either on a bus or also with jumpers that went to 2-2 pole breakers for the generator in and out and then also the 2-2 pole breakers for the dedicated load panels. Then there would be an interlock that slides from left to right to control which system was on, this being either PV or generator. Thanks ahead of time for any help or product suggestions, Jon Siegenthaler _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Tue Aug 13 15:21:08 2019 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 13:21:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial modules In-Reply-To: References: <00dc01d551e0$a30781c0$e9168540$@OasisMontana.com> <963730FB-31DE-4865-8970-3442B051EB85@energycraft.com> Message-ID: Chris - A few resources: Jorge Blanquet at Silfab: j.blanquet at silfabsolar.com. We used their SLA-X 295 modules for a carport project and Jorge was helpful in helping source from 2 different distributors (CED and Krannich). The mods are well built but we're not seeing much backside production. Word on the street is they flash test their bifacials against a white background. Tyler Stewart at Prism: t.stewart at prismsolar.com. I'm not sure if Prism is selling into the resi market right now but Tyler is a good guy and will help you if he can. Chris Deline at NREL: Chris.Deline at nrel.gov. Chris is working on simulating bifacial production in various applications, following on from his earlier work . If this customer has a dark roof backside production will be minimal, but if they have a lighter colored roofing material it could boost production, and Chris might be able to point you towards some resources to help estimate that. Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 12:30 PM Chad Waits wrote: > LG makes bifacials. BayWa will have a stock of them. > > good luck. > > Chad Waits > President > 520-270-4873 > > > > On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 10:31 AM Ryan Harkins < > ryan.harkins at energycraft.com> wrote: > >> Hey Chris, >> >> Speed Solar, Inc. in Deerfield, WI stocks bifacial modules from >> Adani/Mundra Solar. >> >> (608) 764-4900 >> al at speedsolar.net >> >> Ask for Al or Cal. >> >> Now mounting is the trick! >> >> Best, >> Ryan >> >> >> >> On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:08 AM, > chris at oasismontana.com> wrote: >> >> Hello people: >> >> >> >> We have a customer with their heart set on bi-facial modules for their >> residential project. Despite the lack of import tariffs, they are not >> easily found. Does anyone know of a company offering these? Thanks! >> >> >> >> >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> 406-777-4309 >> >> 406-777-4309 fax >> >> *www.oasismontana.com * >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Tue Aug 13 18:35:18 2019 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 18:35:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-facial modules In-Reply-To: References: <00dc01d551e0$a30781c0$e9168540$@OasisMontana.com> <963730FB-31DE-4865-8970-3442B051EB85@energycraft.com> Message-ID: We did a small project with Prism two years ago. In the end (3) of our (30) panels shattered over the course of the first year. Learning curve all around. Be very careful, the edges are super fragile and a mild impact can cause the whole panel to shatter (their engineers said that once an installers wedding ring shattered a panel when he grabbed it!?). Not sure if that is the case with all bifacials or just theirs. Prism replaced at least 2 (maybe all 3?) panels for us, but was a pain to extract them from the array. But, as Andrew mentioned, Tyler and everyone there was super patient and helpful through it all. The custom racking that Prism recommended looked sleek but ultimately I think it caused us a lot of problems and I probably wouldn’t use it again. On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 6:17 PM Andrew Truitt wrote: > > Chris - A few resources: > > Jorge Blanquet at Silfab: j.blanquet at silfabsolar.com. We used their > SLA-X 295 modules for a carport project and Jorge was helpful in helping > source from 2 different distributors (CED and Krannich). The mods are well > built but we're not seeing much backside production. Word on the street is > they flash test their bifacials against a white background. > > Tyler Stewart at Prism: t.stewart at prismsolar.com. I'm not sure if Prism > is selling into the resi market right now but Tyler is a good guy and will > help you if he can. > > Chris Deline at NREL: Chris.Deline at nrel.gov. Chris is working on > simulating bifacial production in various applications, following on from > his earlier work . If this > customer has a dark roof backside production will be minimal, but if they > have a lighter colored roofing material it could boost production, and > Chris might be able to point you towards some resources to help estimate > that. > > > Regards, > > > Andrew Truitt > > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > [image: Logo] > > > > The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient > specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of > this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. > If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and > follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not > occur in the future. > > > On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 12:30 PM Chad Waits > wrote: > >> LG makes bifacials. BayWa will have a stock of them. >> >> good luck. >> >> Chad Waits >> President >> 520-270-4873 >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 10:31 AM Ryan Harkins < >> ryan.harkins at energycraft.com> wrote: >> >>> Hey Chris, >>> >>> Speed Solar, Inc. in Deerfield, WI stocks bifacial modules from >>> Adani/Mundra Solar. >>> >>> (608) 764-4900 >>> al at speedsolar.net >>> >>> Ask for Al or Cal. >>> >>> Now mounting is the trick! >>> >>> Best, >>> Ryan >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:08 AM, >> chris at oasismontana.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hello people: >>> >>> >>> >>> We have a customer with their heart set on bi-facial modules for their >>> residential project. Despite the lack of import tariffs, they are not >>> easily found. Does anyone know of a company offering these? Thanks! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Chris Daum >>> >>> Oasis Montana Inc. >>> >>> 406-777-4309 >>> >>> 406-777-4309 fax >>> >>> *www.oasismontana.com * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Aug 19 12:49:49 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 09:49:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] remote project in northeast India Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I've been contacted by the director of a school located in the remote foothills of the Himalayas in northeast India near the Bhutan and Tibet borders. If any of you are interested in pursuing an offgrid type system in this remote area, please contact me off list and I'll connect you. Best, August *August Goers* Principal Luminalt Energy Corporation o: 415.792.6666 www.luminalt.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Aug 20 21:27:03 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 18:27:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mission PVs In-Reply-To: References: <00dc01d551e0$a30781c0$e9168540$@OasisMontana.com> <963730FB-31DE-4865-8970-3442B051EB85@energycraft.com> Message-ID: Its after hours and I need to load for tomorrow... Embarrassing question....  I finally ran out of SolarWorld PVs and just received a few pallets of Mission MSE310SQ8T PVs.  They are stacked on their edges. hmmm.  I took off the top cardboard, there are still 2 bands running around the 26 PVs horizontally and the cardboard around the sides.  I think only those who have used Mission will know my conundrum....What's the next step? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From solman at legacysolar.com Tue Aug 20 21:32:36 2019 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 20:32:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mission PVs In-Reply-To: References: <00dc01d551e0$a30781c0$e9168540$@OasisMontana.com> <963730FB-31DE-4865-8970-3442B051EB85@energycraft.com> Message-ID: It's not just missions that sometimes come that way. Major pain! Get a helper or two and restack is my only suggestion. Kris Legacy Solar On Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 8:27 PM Bill Battagin wrote: > Its after hours and I need to load for tomorrow... > > Embarrassing question.... I finally ran out of SolarWorld PVs and just > received a few pallets of Mission MSE310SQ8T PVs. They are stacked on > their edges. hmmm. I took off the top cardboard, there are still 2 > bands running around the 26 PVs horizontally and the cardboard around > the sides. I think only those who have used Mission will know my > conundrum....What's the next step? > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunengser at gmail.com Tue Aug 20 22:05:27 2019 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 19:05:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mission PVs In-Reply-To: References: <00dc01d551e0$a30781c0$e9168540$@OasisMontana.com> <963730FB-31DE-4865-8970-3442B051EB85@energycraft.com> Message-ID: It is actually better for minimum shipping damage stacked on their sides. There is a right side to start removing and a really wrong side which you will know immediately! Usually marked start removing this side, follow manufacturer instruction when in doubt. I am not familiar with Mission, but others I have used stacked on their sides there is a wrap of shrink wrap between modules to contain the stack after the bands are cut. Each module is wrapped as they stack them. If you choose the wrong side the whole stack will drop. Be prepared the first time with a buddy to hold the stack just in case you choose wrong! Once you figure it out, it should be smooth sailing. Bill On Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 6:27 PM Bill Battagin wrote: > Its after hours and I need to load for tomorrow... > > Embarrassing question.... I finally ran out of SolarWorld PVs and just > received a few pallets of Mission MSE310SQ8T PVs. They are stacked on > their edges. hmmm. I took off the top cardboard, there are still 2 > bands running around the 26 PVs horizontally and the cardboard around > the sides. I think only those who have used Mission will know my > conundrum....What's the next step? > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Aug 20 21:31:35 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 18:31:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mission PVs In-Reply-To: References: <00dc01d551e0$a30781c0$e9168540$@OasisMontana.com> <963730FB-31DE-4865-8970-3442B051EB85@energycraft.com> Message-ID: <01789e9904facec56ec0488c152a4972@mail.gmail.com> Bill: I hope your trailer has side walls. Load the pallet near one side of your trailer. Encourage modules to lean that direction as you cut the bands. If you are worried about travelling with the load off-center, take some extra pallets to stack between the modules and the downhill side of your trailer. The panels tend to stand up when the bands are cut. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Battagin Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 6:27 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mission PVs Its after hours and I need to load for tomorrow... Embarrassing question.... I finally ran out of SolarWorld PVs and just received a few pallets of Mission MSE310SQ8T PVs. They are stacked on their edges. hmmm. I took off the top cardboard, there are still 2 bands running around the 26 PVs horizontally and the cardboard around the sides. I think only those who have used Mission will know my conundrum....What's the next step? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Aug 21 12:46:36 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 06:46:36 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunPower 72-cell Message-ID: Aloha all, I'm on the hunt for a handful up to a pallet of 72-cell SunPower Corp. mods...215-watt to 250-watt. Please contact me off list if you have any. Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ryan.harkins at energycraft.com Wed Aug 21 13:32:58 2019 From: ryan.harkins at energycraft.com (Ryan Harkins) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 12:32:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mission PVs In-Reply-To: <01789e9904facec56ec0488c152a4972@mail.gmail.com> References: <00dc01d551e0$a30781c0$e9168540$@OasisMontana.com> <963730FB-31DE-4865-8970-3442B051EB85@energycraft.com> <01789e9904facec56ec0488c152a4972@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Bill, Sometimes we add some duct tape to the corner guards on the side-stacked module skids, so as you unpack you peel tape back one module at a time. Helps them stay together as a unit and not tip. Careful with those Mission modules! We had a couple skids of those and the corner miters of the frames were off just a little, so the corners of the modules were like razor blades! They look great though. Ryan > On Aug 20, 2019, at 8:31 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Bill: > > I hope your trailer has side walls. Load the pallet near one side of your > trailer. Encourage modules to lean that direction as you cut the bands. If > you are worried about travelling with the load off-center, take some extra > pallets to stack between the modules and the downhill side of your trailer. > The panels tend to stand up when the bands are cut. > > William > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Bill Battagin > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 6:27 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mission PVs > > Its after hours and I need to load for tomorrow... > > Embarrassing question.... I finally ran out of SolarWorld PVs and just > received a few pallets of Mission MSE310SQ8T PVs. They are stacked on > their edges. hmmm. I took off the top cardboard, there are still 2 > bands running around the 26 PVs horizontally and the cardboard around > the sides. I think only those who have used Mission will know my > conundrum....What's the next step? > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Aug 21 17:12:15 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 17:12:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mission PVs In-Reply-To: References: <00dc01d551e0$a30781c0$e9168540$@OasisMontana.com> <963730FB-31DE-4865-8970-3442B051EB85@energycraft.com> <01789e9904facec56ec0488c152a4972@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have disassembled many of these pallets. On flat ground they stand up very well in their corner protectors. In fact they are a bit difficult to get out. We raise one side of the truck or trailer a bit and let the stack rest against a wall or something heavy and it works just fine. These have proven to be great panels for us, and we have 180 mph design wind speeds here. It's a solid product. *Jason Szumlanski* Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 1:33 PM Ryan Harkins wrote: > Bill, > > Sometimes we add some duct tape to the corner guards on the side-stacked > module skids, so as you unpack you peel tape back one module at a time. > Helps them stay together as a unit and not tip. > > Careful with those Mission modules! We had a couple skids of those and > the corner miters of the frames were off just a little, so the corners of > the modules were like razor blades! They look great though. > > Ryan > > > > On Aug 20, 2019, at 8:31 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > > > Bill: > > > > I hope your trailer has side walls. Load the pallet near one side of > your > > trailer. Encourage modules to lean that direction as you cut the > bands. If > > you are worried about travelling with the load off-center, take some > extra > > pallets to stack between the modules and the downhill side of your > trailer. > > The panels tend to stand up when the bands are cut. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > > Behalf Of Bill Battagin > > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 6:27 PM > > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mission PVs > > > > Its after hours and I need to load for tomorrow... > > > > Embarrassing question.... I finally ran out of SolarWorld PVs and just > > received a few pallets of Mission MSE310SQ8T PVs. They are stacked on > > their edges. hmmm. I took off the top cardboard, there are still 2 > > bands running around the 26 PVs horizontally and the cardboard around > > the sides. I think only those who have used Mission will know my > > conundrum....What's the next step? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Bill > > > > Feather River Solar Electric > > > > > > --- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Aug 21 13:50:29 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:50:29 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld warranty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello all, Is there any entity that is covering Solarworld warranties? Thanks, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Wed Aug 21 18:12:05 2019 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (Greg) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 14:12:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker Message-ID: Fellow Wrenches,  I'm having a discussion with a utility engineer regarding the following situation: Installing a 6kW inverter that has a full rated output of 25 amps. 80% of 30 is 24.  That means to me I need to go up to a 40 amp breaker.  I'm running #8 (continuous load 25 x 1.25 etc.) The engineer believes I should use a 60 amp disco since it's on a 40 amp breaker.  My thinking is I can use a 30 amp disco since it can not produce more than 25 amps ever. Do any of you have a reference that shows what I'm doing is okay? Not okay? Thanks again, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Aug 21 18:32:23 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 18:32:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <101b9f09-6002-1b8c-dce2-722ef481f9b7@entech-engineering.com> Not going through the NEC, but it doesn't make sense to me to put in an OCPD greater than the rating of the switch.  I am sure you can find in the spec sheet what the maximum OCPD allowed is. Chris On 8/21/2019 6:12 PM, Greg wrote: > Fellow Wrenches,  I'm having a discussion with a utility engineer > regarding the following situation: > > Installing a 6kW inverter that has a full rated output of 25 amps.  > 80% of 30 is 24.  That means to me I need to go up to a 40 amp > breaker.  I'm running #8 (continuous load 25 x 1.25 etc.) > The engineer believes I should use a 60 amp disco since it's on a 40 > amp breaker.  My thinking is I can use a 30 amp disco since it can not > produce more than 25 amps ever. > > Do any of you have a reference that shows what I'm doing is okay? Not > okay? > > Thanks again, > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed Aug 21 19:06:34 2019 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 18:06:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have run into this many times and have never found a definitive answer. The disconnect spec typically says that it must be protected with an ocpd at or less than the disco rating, but we are dealing with a current limited device (inverter) in this case so it would seem legal to me. On Wed, Aug 21, 2019, 5:22 PM Greg wrote: > Fellow Wrenches, I'm having a discussion with a utility engineer > regarding the following situation: > > Installing a 6kW inverter that has a full rated output of 25 amps. 80% of > 30 is 24. That means to me I need to go up to a 40 amp breaker. I'm > running #8 (continuous load 25 x 1.25 etc.) > The engineer believes I should use a 60 amp disco since it's on a 40 amp > breaker. My thinking is I can use a 30 amp disco since it can not produce > more than 25 amps ever. > > Do any of you have a reference that shows what I'm doing is okay? Not > okay? > > Thanks again, > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Wed Aug 21 19:20:20 2019 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (Greg) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 15:20:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker Message-ID: All, the engineer came back with 705.22(4) to back up his request. I think that's the end of it.  Per code he is right but since the inverter is only capable of 25 amps, the only time the 30 amp disco would see more than 30 amps is if the inverter was shorted.  If that's the case opening the 30 amp disco at that time could cause failure.  Pretty unlikely event. Although I think installing a 60 on this circuit is an overabundance of caution but I'll be installing a 60 amp disco on this one. Best, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Wed Aug 21 19:20:16 2019 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 16:20:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Typically a fused disconnect can only handle 80% of it's nominal current on a continuous basis. Unfused disconnects are often 100% rated. For example, see attached Square D bulletin #3110DB0401R0410. So, a 100% rated (unfused) 30A disconnect (at least, from Square D) should be fine here, as long as your OCPD is provided elsewhere (eg, the breaker you mentioned). NEC 690.8(B)(1)(Exception) explicitly allows a 100%-rated device to be used without multiplying the inverter output current by 125%. On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 3:22 PM Greg wrote: > Fellow Wrenches, I'm having a discussion with a utility engineer > regarding the following situation: > > Installing a 6kW inverter that has a full rated output of 25 amps. 80% of > 30 is 24. That means to me I need to go up to a 40 amp breaker. I'm > running #8 (continuous load 25 x 1.25 etc.) > The engineer believes I should use a 60 amp disco since it's on a 40 amp > breaker. My thinking is I can use a 30 amp disco since it can not produce > more than 25 amps ever. > > Do any of you have a reference that shows what I'm doing is okay? Not > okay? > > Thanks again, > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* 510.845.2997 x128 Follow us on Facebook , LinkedIn or our website . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Square-D-Switch-PV-Bulletin_06-10_100percent_rated.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 114256 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Aug 21 20:44:43 2019 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 18:44:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0F78E64C-DF34-4DC3-9650-6FE030BFE067@solarenergy.org> I agree Blake - you have to check the specs and consult the mfg. The same is true with combiners, some are rated for continuous duty/full load, and some are not. Lots of large systems out there with 200A combiners connected to 250A OCPDs (and 250A conductors, but that’s another story...). Brian > On Aug 21, 2019, at 5:20 PM, Blake Gleason wrote: > > Typically a fused disconnect can only handle 80% of it's nominal current on a continuous basis. Unfused disconnects are often 100% rated. For example, see attached Square D bulletin #3110DB0401R0410. > > So, a 100% rated (unfused) 30A disconnect (at least, from Square D) should be fine here, as long as your OCPD is provided elsewhere (eg, the breaker you mentioned). > > NEC 690.8(B)(1)(Exception) explicitly allows a 100%-rated device to be used without multiplying the inverter output current by 125%. > > >> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 3:22 PM Greg wrote: >> Fellow Wrenches, I'm having a discussion with a utility engineer regarding the following situation: >> >> Installing a 6kW inverter that has a full rated output of 25 amps. 80% of 30 is 24. That means to me I need to go up to a 40 amp breaker. I'm running #8 (continuous load 25 x 1.25 etc.) >> The engineer believes I should use a 60 amp disco since it's on a 40 amp breaker. My thinking is I can use a 30 amp disco since it can not produce more than 25 amps ever. >> >> Do any of you have a reference that shows what I'm doing is okay? Not okay? >> >> Thanks again, >> Greg Egan >> Remote Power Inc. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > > > > Blake Gleason, PE | Employee-Owner | > Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence > > 510.845.2997 x128 > > Follow us on Facebook, LinkedIn or our website. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Thu Aug 22 00:21:39 2019 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (Greg) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 20:21:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ca3581e-b452-f2a5-c224-7c7920741388@remotepowerinc.com> All, thanks for the responses.  I greatly appreciate it.  Yes the 30 amp disco is non-fusible and rated for full load.  True, you have to check the manu's specs.  You _always_ should check the manufacturers specs. Anyway, 705.22(4) indicates the disco: /Have ratings sufficient for the maximum circuit current, // //available short-circuit current, and voltage that is available // //at the terminals/. That rules out a 30 amp disco in this case. Best, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. On 8/21/2019 3:20 PM, Greg wrote: > All, the engineer came back with 705.22(4) to back up his request.  I > think that's the end of it.  Per code he is right but since the > inverter is only capable of 25 amps, the only time the 30 amp disco > would see more than 30 amps is if the inverter was shorted.  If that's > the case opening the 30 amp disco at that time could cause failure.  > Pretty unlikely event. > Although I think installing a 60 on this circuit is an overabundance > of caution but I'll be installing a 60 amp disco on this one. > > Best, > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Aug 21 18:34:31 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 15:34:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg: Unless your disconnect is specifically rated for continuous duty, you have to up-size it by 125%. To my knowledge, disconnects are not generally rated for continuous duty. A quick review of the Square D Digest (as an example of but one manufacturer) indicates that only one high-end type of disconnect switch carries a continuous duty rating. I am fairly certain your garden variety disconnect does not carry this rating. Therefore you must apply the upsize calculations. 25*1.25=31.25. You cannot use a 30A disconnect. Sorry to disagree. There is no benefit to cutting corners. I remind myself daily that electrical equipment, when misapplied, can kill. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 3:12 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker Fellow Wrenches, I'm having a discussion with a utility engineer regarding the following situation: Installing a 6kW inverter that has a full rated output of 25 amps. 80% of 30 is 24. That means to me I need to go up to a 40 amp breaker. I'm running #8 (continuous load 25 x 1.25 etc.) The engineer believes I should use a 60 amp disco since it's on a 40 amp breaker. My thinking is I can use a 30 amp disco since it can not produce more than 25 amps ever. Do any of you have a reference that shows what I'm doing is okay? Not okay? Thanks again, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Aug 21 20:23:39 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 17:23:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00034e4f789d766d7909fc8675c5d2d9@mail.gmail.com> Blake: Thanks for sharing the data sheet. The document applies to DC PV systems, however, and I believe the discussion pertains to the AC inverter output. Therefore the bulletin you attached does not apply here. (Note also that this data sheet indicates you need to use two poles for any application, ungrounded or grounded. I believe that requirement was usurped later on for Square D Heavy Duty switches, but again, that is for a different application.) I looked again at Square D general and heavy duty safety switches rated at 30 Amps and I could not find any reference that these switches are continuous duty rated. I still believe that for the application described, the 125% rating has to be applied. If, hypothetically, you could find a 30A disconnect that was continuous duty rated, if it is fed by a 40 Amp breaker, as I believe would be required, then the 30 Amp disconnect is still not suitable. You can not feed a 30 Amp rated device with more than 30 Amps. Bottom line, a 30 Amp disconnect will not meet code on the described project. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Blake Gleason *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 4:20 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker Typically a fused disconnect can only handle 80% of it's nominal current on a continuous basis. Unfused disconnects are often 100% rated. For example, see attached Square D bulletin #3110DB0401R0410. So, a 100% rated (unfused) 30A disconnect (at least, from Square D) should be fine here, as long as your OCPD is provided elsewhere (eg, the breaker you mentioned). NEC 690.8(B)(1)(Exception) explicitly allows a 100%-rated device to be used without multiplying the inverter output current by 125%. On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 3:22 PM Greg wrote: Fellow Wrenches, I'm having a discussion with a utility engineer regarding the following situation: Installing a 6kW inverter that has a full rated output of 25 amps. 80% of 30 is 24. That means to me I need to go up to a 40 amp breaker. I'm running #8 (continuous load 25 x 1.25 etc.) The engineer believes I should use a 60 amp disco since it's on a 40 amp breaker. My thinking is I can use a 30 amp disco since it can not produce more than 25 amps ever. Do any of you have a reference that shows what I'm doing is okay? Not okay? Thanks again, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* 510.845.2997 x128 Follow us on Facebook , LinkedIn or our website . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Thu Aug 22 01:59:59 2019 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 22:59:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker In-Reply-To: <5ca3581e-b452-f2a5-c224-7c7920741388@remotepowerinc.com> References: <5ca3581e-b452-f2a5-c224-7c7920741388@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: Greg, It would seem that the 30A disco, if 100% rated, is fine with the max circuit current, and I'm sure it's fine with the voltage. The unfused disco is not going to be the limiting factor for your short circuit current. (The disco is probably 100kAIC.) Rather, the limiting factor would be the (40A / 10kAIC?) breaker. In other words, I don't see how 705.22(4) rules out the 30A disco. Blake Gleason, PE Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence Sun Light & Power On Wed, Aug 21, 2019, 9:52 PM Greg wrote: > All, thanks for the responses. I greatly appreciate it. Yes the 30 amp > disco is non-fusible and rated for full load. True, you have to check the > manu's specs. You *always* should check the manufacturers specs. > Anyway, 705.22(4) indicates the disco: > *Have ratings sufficient for the maximum circuit current, * > *available short-circuit current, and voltage that is available * > *at the terminals*. > That rules out a 30 amp disco in this case. > > Best, > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > On 8/21/2019 3:20 PM, Greg wrote: > > All, the engineer came back with 705.22(4) to back up his request. I > think that's the end of it. Per code he is right but since the inverter is > only capable of 25 amps, the only time the 30 amp disco would see more than > 30 amps is if the inverter was shorted. If that's the case opening the 30 > amp disco at that time could cause failure. Pretty unlikely event. > Although I think installing a 60 on this circuit is an overabundance of > caution but I'll be installing a 60 amp disco on this one. > > Best, > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Thu Aug 22 15:38:10 2019 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 12:38:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker In-Reply-To: <00034e4f789d766d7909fc8675c5d2d9@mail.gmail.com> References: <00034e4f789d766d7909fc8675c5d2d9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William, Yes, the bulletin I attached was just an example of a 100% rated disconnect (which happened to be DC since that's the one I had handy!). My understanding is that most of the NON-fused Square D switches are rated for 100%. See this FAQ from the manufacturer: https://www.schneider-electric.us/en/faqs/FA237949/, quoted below: > *Resolution:*All General Duty, Heavy Duty or Double Throw Safety Switches > maximum current rating, either 80% or 100% of the nameplate rating, depends > on if the switch is Fusible or NON-Fusible. > > - Fusible switches are rated to carry up to 80% of the amp rating of > the fuses installed in the switch > > > - Non-fusible (unfused) switches are rated to carry 100% of the switch > nameplate ampere rating > > Regarding this point: > If, hypothetically, you could find a 30A disconnect that was continuous > duty rated, if it is fed by a 40 Amp breaker, as I believe would be > required, then the 30 Amp disconnect is still not suitable. You can not > feed a 30 Amp rated device with more than 30 Amps. I believe the original poster was asking about a 6000W inverter with 25A max output. So in that case you could use a 100% rated non-fusible disconnect, because the max current is only 25A. (The required 40A breaker is sized larger because commonly available breakers are only 80% rated, not 100%. But the max current is still only 25A.) See 690.8(A) for calculation of maximum circuit current, specifically section (3) for inverters: "The maximum current shall be the inverter continuous output current rating." (Not "the inverter continuous output current multiplied by 1.25.") Best, Blake On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:59 PM William Miller wrote: > Blake: > > > > Thanks for sharing the data sheet. The document applies to DC PV systems, > however, and I believe the discussion pertains to the AC inverter output. > Therefore the bulletin you attached does not apply here. > > > > (Note also that this data sheet indicates you need to use two poles for > any application, ungrounded or grounded. I believe that requirement was > usurped later on for Square D Heavy Duty switches, but again, that is for a > different application.) > > > > I looked again at Square D general and heavy duty safety switches rated at > 30 Amps and I could not find any reference that these switches are > continuous duty rated. I still believe that for the application described, > the 125% rating has to be applied. > > > > If, hypothetically, you could find a 30A disconnect that was continuous > duty rated, if it is fed by a 40 Amp breaker, as I believe would be > required, then the 30 Amp disconnect is still not suitable. You can not > feed a 30 Amp rated device with more than 30 Amps. > > > > Bottom line, a 30 Amp disconnect will not meet code on the described > project. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy > > storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Blake Gleason > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 4:20 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker > > > > Typically a fused disconnect can only handle 80% of it's nominal current > on a continuous basis. Unfused disconnects are often 100% rated. For > example, see attached Square D bulletin #3110DB0401R0410. > > > > So, a 100% rated (unfused) 30A disconnect (at least, from Square D) should > be fine here, as long as your OCPD is provided elsewhere (eg, the breaker > you mentioned). > > > > NEC 690.8(B)(1)(Exception) explicitly allows a 100%-rated device to be > used without multiplying the inverter output current by 125%. > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 3:22 PM Greg wrote: > > Fellow Wrenches, I'm having a discussion with a utility engineer > regarding the following situation: > > Installing a 6kW inverter that has a full rated output of 25 amps. 80% of > 30 is 24. That means to me I need to go up to a 40 amp breaker. I'm > running #8 (continuous load 25 x 1.25 etc.) > The engineer believes I should use a 60 amp disco since it's on a 40 amp > breaker. My thinking is I can use a 30 amp disco since it can not produce > more than 25 amps ever. > > Do any of you have a reference that shows what I'm doing is okay? Not > okay? > > Thanks again, > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > > > > > *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | > > *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* > > > 510.845.2997 x128 > > Follow us on Facebook > , > LinkedIn or our > website . > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* 510.845.2997 x128 Follow us on Facebook , LinkedIn or our website . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Thu Aug 22 15:53:17 2019 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 19:53:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA grid-tied backup LG or BYD? References: <87385803.1053649.1566503597512.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <87385803.1053649.1566503597512@mail.yahoo.com> We're going to install a 20kW grid-tied pv system with the high voltage SMA battery backup. SMA has approved LG Chem and BYD batteries for its equipment.We have no experience with either battery and were wondering wrenches experiences or preferences with the two choices. Pricing and temperature requirements are about the same. One noticeable difference is that the LG is wall mounted and the BYD is stacked on the floor. thanks for your time, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Aug 22 15:58:51 2019 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 14:58:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA grid-tied backup LG or BYD? In-Reply-To: <87385803.1053649.1566503597512@mail.yahoo.com> References: <87385803.1053649.1566503597512.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <87385803.1053649.1566503597512@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <028001d55924$057a8d30$106fa790$@solarcentex.com> LG is so easy to work with – get the handles to mount to the wall. Call me if any questions. Scot From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bill Hennessy Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2019 2:53 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA grid-tied backup LG or BYD? We're going to install a 20kW grid-tied pv system with the high voltage SMA battery backup. SMA has approved LG Chem and BYD batteries for its equipment. We have no experience with either battery and were wondering wrenches experiences or preferences with the two choices. Pricing and temperature requirements are about the same. One noticeable difference is that the LG is wall mounted and the BYD is stacked on the floor. thanks for your time, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 37034 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Aug 22 17:29:01 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 14:29:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker In-Reply-To: References: <00034e4f789d766d7909fc8675c5d2d9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <24bab0ec41ffad85b044a3ededda3f3d@mail.gmail.com> Blake: Thank you for the reference from Schneider. I think the point being missed here is that the ampacity rating of each device needs to be evaluated in light of the power flow in either direction. If a 40 Amp breaker is supplied between the utility and the disconnect in question, in case of a fault, it could supply more current from the grid than a 30 Amp disconnect is rated to handle. This is particularly relevant considering the grid is not nearly as much a current limited source as an inverter. Sincerely, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller *From:* Blake Gleason [mailto:blake at sunlightandpower.com] *Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2019 12:38 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker Hi William, Yes, the bulletin I attached was just an example of a 100% rated disconnect (which happened to be DC since that's the one I had handy!). My understanding is that most of the NON-fused Square D switches are rated for 100%. See this FAQ from the manufacturer: https://www.schneider-electric.us/en/faqs/FA237949/, quoted below: *Resolution:* All General Duty, Heavy Duty or Double Throw Safety Switches maximum current rating, either 80% or 100% of the nameplate rating, depends on if the switch is Fusible or NON-Fusible. o Fusible switches are rated to carry up to 80% of the amp rating of the fuses installed in the switch o Non-fusible (unfused) switches are rated to carry 100% of the switch nameplate ampere rating Regarding this point: If, hypothetically, you could find a 30A disconnect that was continuous duty rated, if it is fed by a 40 Amp breaker, as I believe would be required, then the 30 Amp disconnect is still not suitable. You can not feed a 30 Amp rated device with more than 30 Amps. I believe the original poster was asking about a 6000W inverter with 25A max output. So in that case you could use a 100% rated non-fusible disconnect, because the max current is only 25A. (The required 40A breaker is sized larger because commonly available breakers are only 80% rated, not 100%. But the max current is still only 25A.) See 690.8(A) for calculation of maximum circuit current, specifically section (3) for inverters: "The maximum current shall be the inverter continuous output current rating." (Not "the inverter continuous output current multiplied by 1.25.") Best, Blake On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:59 PM William Miller wrote: Blake: Thanks for sharing the data sheet. The document applies to DC PV systems, however, and I believe the discussion pertains to the AC inverter output. Therefore the bulletin you attached does not apply here. (Note also that this data sheet indicates you need to use two poles for any application, ungrounded or grounded. I believe that requirement was usurped later on for Square D Heavy Duty switches, but again, that is for a different application.) I looked again at Square D general and heavy duty safety switches rated at 30 Amps and I could not find any reference that these switches are continuous duty rated. I still believe that for the application described, the 125% rating has to be applied. If, hypothetically, you could find a 30A disconnect that was continuous duty rated, if it is fed by a 40 Amp breaker, as I believe would be required, then the 30 Amp disconnect is still not suitable. You can not feed a 30 Amp rated device with more than 30 Amps. Bottom line, a 30 Amp disconnect will not meet code on the described project. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Blake Gleason *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 4:20 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker Typically a fused disconnect can only handle 80% of it's nominal current on a continuous basis. Unfused disconnects are often 100% rated. For example, see attached Square D bulletin #3110DB0401R0410. So, a 100% rated (unfused) 30A disconnect (at least, from Square D) should be fine here, as long as your OCPD is provided elsewhere (eg, the breaker you mentioned). NEC 690.8(B)(1)(Exception) explicitly allows a 100%-rated device to be used without multiplying the inverter output current by 125%. On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 3:22 PM Greg wrote: Fellow Wrenches, I'm having a discussion with a utility engineer regarding the following situation: Installing a 6kW inverter that has a full rated output of 25 amps. 80% of 30 is 24. That means to me I need to go up to a 40 amp breaker. I'm running #8 (continuous load 25 x 1.25 etc.) The engineer believes I should use a 60 amp disco since it's on a 40 amp breaker. My thinking is I can use a 30 amp disco since it can not produce more than 25 amps ever. Do any of you have a reference that shows what I'm doing is okay? Not okay? Thanks again, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* 510.845.2997 x128 Follow us on Facebook , LinkedIn or our website . _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* 510.845.2997 x128 Follow us on Facebook , LinkedIn or our website . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Thu Aug 22 20:09:33 2019 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 17:09:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar area lighting Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I’m looking for some solar area lighting or street lights for a local project. I need decent wattage or lumens, nothing under 5000 lumens. Has anyone had any experience with these? I’ve seen a few on Amazon etc. but a lot of conflicting and unreliable info. I contacted solar lighting in Fla. with no response. Ron earthRight - Solareagle.com From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Thu Aug 22 20:12:27 2019 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 00:12:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar area lighting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Try Selux https://www.google.com/search?q=selux+lighting+usa&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#trex=m_t:lcl_akp,rc_f:nav,rc_ludocids:12814526711032620612,rc_q:Selux%2520Corporation,ru_q:Selux%2520Corporation Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ron Young Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2019 8:09:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar area lighting Hello Wrenches, I’m looking for some solar area lighting or street lights for a local project. I need decent wattage or lumens, nothing under 5000 lumens. Has anyone had any experience with these? I’ve seen a few on Amazon etc. but a lot of conflicting and unreliable info. I contacted solar lighting in Fla. with no response. Ron earthRight - Solareagle.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at willpowerelect.com Thu Aug 22 21:15:00 2019 From: bruce at willpowerelect.com (bruce at willpowerelect.com) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 18:15:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW fault code low output voltage Message-ID: <20190822181500.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.bb73eee6db.wbe@email26.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Aug 22 21:28:08 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 19:28:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW fault code low output voltage In-Reply-To: <20190822181500.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.bb73eee6db.wbe@email26.godaddy.com> References: <20190822181500.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.bb73eee6db.wbe@email26.godaddy.com> Message-ID: What kind of load is on this system? Any oddball loads that may strange power factor? On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 7:15 PM wrote: > Group, > > I'm not very familiar with Schneider equipment, but would like to > understand fault code 00F1 on a CSW 4024. > Low voltage output. Any remedy? Have reset several times but fault > continues. Inverter only two years old. > Tech support wouldn't take my call 'cause I'm not on their 'certified' > list. > > Thanks! > > Bruce Fiero > > P: 541.535.3965 > F: 541.512.0061 > E: bruce at willpowerelect.com > W: Willpower Electric, LLC > > CCB 191852 > Oregon Electrical Contractor C681 > NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38 > DUNS 191470363 > Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy > Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at willpowerelect.com Thu Aug 22 21:39:02 2019 From: bruce at willpowerelect.com (bruce at willpowerelect.com) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 18:39:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW fault code low output voltage Message-ID: <20190822183902.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.385b45ce20.wbe@email26.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Fri Aug 23 10:01:00 2019 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 14:01:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW fault code low output voltage In-Reply-To: <20190822181500.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.bb73eee6db.wbe@email26.godaddy.com> References: <20190822181500.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.bb73eee6db.wbe@email26.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Hello Bruce, If the CSW is unable to maintain 210V L1 to L2 it will display this fault F01. 1. Measure DC voltage at the inverter terminals, ensure DC is within range. 2. With AC breaker open, check inside wiring compartment for output voltage 3. If F01 is present with AC breakers open, the damage is internal to the inverter Also, I would like to understand your comment about tech support not taking your call. Could you please contact me directly? Thanks Sandra Herrera 425-210-0163 Sandra.herrera at se.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of bruce at willpowerelect.com Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2019 6:15 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW fault code low output voltage [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ Group, I'm not very familiar with Schneider equipment, but would like to understand fault code 00F1 on a CSW 4024. Low voltage output. Any remedy? Have reset several times but fault continues. Inverter only two years old. Tech support wouldn't take my call 'cause I'm not on their 'certified' list. Thanks! Bruce Fiero P: 541.535.3965 F: 541.512.0061 E: bruce at willpowerelect.com W: Willpower Electric, LLC CCB 191852 Oregon Electrical Contractor C681 NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38 DUNS 191470363 Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri Aug 23 10:58:21 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 07:58:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker In-Reply-To: <24bab0ec41ffad85b044a3ededda3f3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <00034e4f789d766d7909fc8675c5d2d9@mail.gmail.com> <24bab0ec41ffad85b044a3ededda3f3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Folks, Thread points up the ever present weakness of the Code to deal with PV. In terms of specifying OCP, the Code completely fails to parse out overload protection from short circuit protection and always looks at it from the point of view of the grid. To Blake's credit he did bring in the issue of current interrupt capacity. Point is that a 40A breaker between the gird and (grid-tied) inverter will never see a condition where the the inverter is drawing any current of any significant magnitude for any significant period of time. The only time it will draw current from the grid is if some element within it is in short-circuit mode. In this case it really doesn't matter what the rating of the breaker is, 30 A, 40 A, of 100 A, it is going to trip very quickly when it sees a short circuit condition. All the over-sizing stuff in the code really only addresses high load/over load conditions which are not relevant to the situation we are talking about. Another way of saying this, which would be more sensible is: yes, evaluate the circuit in both directions, but only consider the load to be continuous in the direction from the inverter to the grid. Mark On 8/22/2019 2:29 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Blake: > > Thank you for the reference from Schneider. > > I think the point being missed here is that the ampacity rating of > each device needs to be evaluated in light of the power flow in either > direction.  If a 40 Amp breaker is supplied between the utility and > the disconnect in question, in case of a fault, it could supply more > current from the grid than a 30 Amp disconnect is rated to handle.   > This is particularly relevant considering the grid is not nearly as > much a current limited source as an inverter. > > Sincerely, > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > Quote of the month:  “As they age, batteries transition from energy > > storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller > > *From:*Blake Gleason [mailto:blake at sunlightandpower.com > ] > *Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2019 12:38 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com ; > RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker > > Hi William, > > Yes, the bulletin I attached was just an example of a 100% rated > disconnect (which happened to be DC since that's the one I had > handy!).  My understanding is that most of the NON-fused Square D > switches are rated for 100%. > > See this FAQ from the manufacturer: > https://www.schneider-electric.us/en/faqs/FA237949/, quoted below: > > *Resolution:** > *All General Duty, Heavy Duty or Double Throw Safety Switches > maximum current rating, either 80% or 100% of the nameplate > rating, depends on if the switch is Fusible or NON-Fusible. > > oFusible switches are rated to carry up to 80% of the amp rating > of the fuses installed in the switch > > oNon-fusible (unfused) switches are rated to carry 100% of the > switch nameplate ampere rating > >  Regarding this point: > > If, hypothetically, you could find a 30A disconnect that was > continuous duty rated, if it is fed by a 40 Amp breaker, as I > believe would be required, then the 30 Amp disconnect is still not > suitable.  You can not feed a 30 Amp rated device with more than > 30 Amps. > > I believe the original poster was asking about a 6000W inverter with > 25A max output.  So in that case you could use a 100% rated > non-fusible disconnect, because the max current is only 25A.  (The > required 40A breaker is sized larger because commonly available > breakers are only 80% rated, not 100%.  But the max current is still > only 25A.)  See 690.8(A) for calculation of maximum circuit current, > specifically section (3) for inverters: "The maximum current shall be > the inverter continuous output current rating."  (Not "the inverter > continuous output current multiplied by 1.25.") > > Best, > > Blake > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:59 PM William Miller > > wrote: > > Blake: > > Thanks for sharing the data sheet.  The document applies to DC PV > systems, however, and I believe the discussion pertains to the AC > inverter output. Therefore the bulletin you attached does not > apply here. > > (Note also that this data sheet indicates you need to use two > poles for any application, ungrounded or grounded.  I believe that > requirement was usurped later on for Square D Heavy Duty switches, > but again, that is for a different application.) > > I looked again at Square D general and heavy duty safety switches > rated at 30 Amps and I could not find any reference that these > switches are continuous duty rated.  I still believe that for the > application described, the 125% rating has to be applied. > > If, hypothetically, you could find a 30A disconnect that was > continuous duty rated, if it is fed by a 40 Amp breaker, as I > believe would be required, then the 30 Amp disconnect is still not > suitable. You can not feed a 30 Amp rated device with more than 30 > Amps. > > Bottom line, a 30 Amp disconnect will not meet code on the > described project. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > Quote of the month:  “As they age, batteries transition from energy > > storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Blake Gleason > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 4:20 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 30 amp disconnect/40 amp breaker > > Typically a fused disconnect can only handle 80% of it's nominal > current on a continuous basis.  Unfused disconnects are often 100% > rated.  For example, see attached Square D bulletin #3110DB0401R0410. > > So, a 100% rated (unfused) 30A disconnect (at least, from Square > D) should be fine here, as long as your OCPD is provided elsewhere > (eg, the breaker you mentioned). > > NEC 690.8(B)(1)(Exception) explicitly allows a 100%-rated device > to be used without multiplying the inverter output current by 125%. > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 3:22 PM Greg > wrote: > > Fellow Wrenches,  I'm having a discussion with a utility > engineer regarding the following situation: > > Installing a 6kW inverter that has a full rated output of 25 > amps.  80% of 30 is 24. That means to me I need to go up to a > 40 amp breaker.  I'm running #8 (continuous load 25 x 1.25 etc.) > The engineer believes I should use a 60 amp disco since it's > on a 40 amp breaker.  My thinking is I can use a 30 amp disco > since it can not produce more than 25 amps ever. > > Do any of you have a reference that shows what I'm doing is > okay? Not okay? > > Thanks again, > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > > > > *Blake Gleason, PE***| Employee-Owner | > > *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* > > > 510.845.2997 x128 > > Follow us onFacebook > , > LinkedIn  or > our website . > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > > > > *Blake Gleason, PE***| Employee-Owner | > > *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* > > > 510.845.2997 x128 > > Follow us onFacebook > , > LinkedIn  or our > website . > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Fri Aug 23 15:26:14 2019 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 09:26:14 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar area lighting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aloha Ron, Check out Sepco from Florida. They have helped me in the past with projects. They even can render designs if that is helpful. https://www.sepco-solarlighting.com/ My contact there is: Kevin P. Mason II International Sales Manager www.sepco-solarlighting.com kevin at sepconet.com Happy Trails! *James B. Rudolph* *Hawai'i Unified* *Director of Energy* *ES Electrician # 10816* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* *808.594.9969* On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 2:09 PM Ron Young wrote: > Hello Wrenches, I’m looking for some solar area lighting or street lights > for a local project. I need decent wattage or lumens, nothing under 5000 > lumens. Has anyone had any experience with these? I’ve seen a few on Amazon > etc. but a lot of conflicting and unreliable info. I contacted solar > lighting in Fla. with no response. > > Ron > earthRight - Solareagle.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 23 21:13:24 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 18:13:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power wall Message-ID: <3710FF0F-6150-403D-B518-1D136B5A9B80@gmail.com> A question for the power wall installers out there If I understand correctly, the customer buys the powerwall from Tesla directly and then pays you for the install? Does Tesla have any control or influence over the install cost? Thx Jay From marco at pvthawaii.com Sat Aug 24 02:21:18 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 20:21:18 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall Message-ID: Hey Jay, My company is a Tesla certified installer (C.I.). The homeowner may have two paths to getting one or more Powerwalls: * If they live in an area where Tesla has a brick and mortar physical presence, they can purchase a Powerwall or two or more and have it done by Tesla. * The homeowner can also purchase a Powerwall from a C.I. and have it installed by the C.I. The sale price to the homeowner is determined by the C.I. The Powerwall product is the same whichever the sales channel. I’ll be at SPI in SLC next month and look forward to seeing what the energy storage landscape is like. marco On Friday, August 23, 2019, Jay wrote: > A question for the power wall installers out there > > If I understand correctly, the customer buys the powerwall from Tesla > directly and then pays you for the install? > > Does Tesla have any control or influence over the install cost? > > Thx > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Sat Aug 24 17:31:05 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 14:31:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power wall In-Reply-To: <3710FF0F-6150-403D-B518-1D136B5A9B80@gmail.com> References: <3710FF0F-6150-403D-B518-1D136B5A9B80@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay - We are a Tesla Powerwall/Powerpack dealer. We buy equipment direct from Tesla just like any normal vendor relationship and then sell a complete turnkey installation for our customers. Our customers don't buy equipment directly from Tesla. Tesla allows customers to place a deposit for Powerwalls on their website, but then those clients get their installation by Tesla direct. It may work differently in different markets - we work in the SF Bay Area. Tesla does not control our installed cost. They attempted to influence our pricing a while but we didn't budge. Energy storage installation requires a lot of tricky electrical work, so don't go too low on your pricing! August Luminalt On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 9:21 PM Jay wrote: > A question for the power wall installers out there > > If I understand correctly, the customer buys the powerwall from Tesla > directly and then pays you for the install? > > Does Tesla have any control or influence over the install cost? > > Thx > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sun Aug 25 18:21:15 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 15:21:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol Connectors Message-ID: <975dbe59-bbe7-0f1b-aebe-2a44c121b476@berkeleysolar.com> Speaking of Tesla... What with Walmart and (Amazon?) suing them for PV fires... Can anyone here give a brief run down on the whole Amphenol UTX (?) defective or cross-mated connector story? Thanks, Mark Frye From solarguy2004 at gmail.com Sun Aug 25 19:10:24 2019 From: solarguy2004 at gmail.com (Jim Duncan) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 18:10:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol Connectors In-Reply-To: <975dbe59-bbe7-0f1b-aebe-2a44c121b476@berkeleysolar.com> References: <975dbe59-bbe7-0f1b-aebe-2a44c121b476@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Several years ago I disassembled an Amphenol and a MC4 connectors to find for myself what the difference was. It came down to the cross section of the O-ring. One brand was smaller than the other. Also the female component that the O-ring fit into was correspondingly different. So in one assembly the fit was too tight but both mismatched pieces would go together with extra effort while the other the o-ring did not fit tight enough and would snap together with normal pressure. It's been a number of years since I did this but I doubt that either manufacturer would alter anything that would make new connectors not compatible with older ones. I also recall that MC was on a tear for years, especially at trade shows, confronting any unauthorized competitor connector maker that implied that theirs were compatible with MC products. *Jim Duncan retired... Solar Acres Farm 817.917.0527 solarguy2004 at gmail.com* On 8/25/2019 5:21 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > Speaking of Tesla... > > What with Walmart and (Amazon?) suing them for PV fires... > > Can anyone here give a brief run down on the whole Amphenol UTX (?) > defective or cross-mated connector story? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Aug 25 20:40:17 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 20:40:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol Connectors In-Reply-To: References: <975dbe59-bbe7-0f1b-aebe-2a44c121b476@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <001d01d55ba6$d6a5b360$83f11a20$@glbcc.com> I see that Canadian Solar has some official looking report from Chinese CSA stating that the Amphenol connectors they use are tested as interchangeable with MC-4… Haven’t been able to figure out what the piece of paper means, how the testing was done, or how they certified it… From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jim Duncan Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 7:10 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol Connectors Several years ago I disassembled an Amphenol and a MC4 connectors to find for myself what the difference was. It came down to the cross section of the O-ring. One brand was smaller than the other. Also the female component that the O-ring fit into was correspondingly different. So in one assembly the fit was too tight but both mismatched pieces would go together with extra effort while the other the o-ring did not fit tight enough and would snap together with normal pressure. It's been a number of years since I did this but I doubt that either manufacturer would alter anything that would make new connectors not compatible with older ones. I also recall that MC was on a tear for years, especially at trade shows, confronting any unauthorized competitor connector maker that implied that theirs were compatible with MC products. Jim Duncan retired... Solar Acres Farm 817.917.0527 solarguy2004 at gmail.com On 8/25/2019 5:21 PM, Mark Frye wrote: Speaking of Tesla... What with Walmart and (Amazon?) suing them for PV fires... Can anyone here give a brief run down on the whole Amphenol UTX (?) defective or cross-mated connector story? Thanks, Mark Frye _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Aug 25 21:27:53 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 18:27:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol Connectors In-Reply-To: <001d01d55ba6$d6a5b360$83f11a20$@glbcc.com> References: <975dbe59-bbe7-0f1b-aebe-2a44c121b476@berkeleysolar.com> <001d01d55ba6$d6a5b360$83f11a20$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: I’ve seen some paperwork on something similar. It was tested with #14 wire, which of course no one uses which makes it void. Also who is now legally responsible if there is an issue? I heard of a big US distributor who had a similar report done. 14 gauge wire. After the fire, and all the lawyers the report/ certificate was worthless, which put the legal responsibility back on the distributor. What I don’t understand is that connectors are about the cheapest part of the install. Just use like for like and eliminate most issues and also any liability. ( see latest Walmart/ Tesla fiasco, grab some popcorn gonna be good) I’ve rarely seen like for like failures but many dissimilar ones. PV Cables has them all, even the really weird ones. Info I’ve seen from MC says that different OEMS use different coatings which don’t always agree and can cause accelerated corrosion. Actual sizes of the plastic and metal and tolerances can be off creating issues. Just not worth it in my view. My 2cents Jay > On Aug 25, 2019, at 5:40 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > I see that Canadian Solar has some official looking report from Chinese CSA stating that the Amphenol connectors they use are tested as interchangeable with MC-4… Haven’t been able to figure out what the piece of paper means, how the testing was done, or how they certified it… > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jim Duncan > Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 7:10 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol Connectors > > Several years ago I disassembled an Amphenol and a MC4 connectors to find for myself what the difference was. It came down to the cross section of the O-ring. One brand was smaller than the other. Also the female component that the O-ring fit into was correspondingly different. > So in one assembly the fit was too tight but both mismatched pieces would go together with extra effort while the other the o-ring did not fit tight enough and would snap together with normal pressure. It's been a number of years since I did this but I doubt that either manufacturer would alter anything that would make new connectors not compatible with older ones. > I also recall that MC was on a tear for years, especially at trade shows, confronting any unauthorized competitor connector maker that implied that theirs were compatible with MC products. > > Jim Duncan retired... > Solar Acres Farm > 817.917.0527 > solarguy2004 at gmail.com > On 8/25/2019 5:21 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > Speaking of Tesla... > > What with Walmart and (Amazon?) suing them for PV fires... > > Can anyone here give a brief run down on the whole Amphenol UTX (?) defective or cross-mated connector story? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Sun Aug 25 21:16:28 2019 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 01:16:28 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol Connectors In-Reply-To: <001d01d55ba6$d6a5b360$83f11a20$@glbcc.com> References: <975dbe59-bbe7-0f1b-aebe-2a44c121b476@berkeleysolar.com> , <001d01d55ba6$d6a5b360$83f11a20$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Per the MC4 catalog, they don’t accept liability for any others… Best regards, Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting l Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Glenn Burt Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 8:40 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol Connectors I see that Canadian Solar has some official looking report from Chinese CSA stating that the Amphenol connectors they use are tested as interchangeable with MC-4… Haven’t been able to figure out what the piece of paper means, how the testing was done, or how they certified it… From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jim Duncan Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 7:10 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol Connectors Several years ago I disassembled an Amphenol and a MC4 connectors to find for myself what the difference was. It came down to the cross section of the O-ring. One brand was smaller than the other. Also the female component that the O-ring fit into was correspondingly different. So in one assembly the fit was too tight but both mismatched pieces would go together with extra effort while the other the o-ring did not fit tight enough and would snap together with normal pressure. It's been a number of years since I did this but I doubt that either manufacturer would alter anything that would make new connectors not compatible with older ones. I also recall that MC was on a tear for years, especially at trade shows, confronting any unauthorized competitor connector maker that implied that theirs were compatible with MC products. Jim Duncan retired... Solar Acres Farm 817.917.0527 solarguy2004 at gmail.com On 8/25/2019 5:21 PM, Mark Frye wrote: Speaking of Tesla... What with Walmart and (Amazon?) suing them for PV fires... Can anyone here give a brief run down on the whole Amphenol UTX (?) defective or cross-mated connector story? Thanks, Mark Frye _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MC4 Catalog_PV_Sol-Main-11014092_(en)_hi.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 13236907 bytes Desc: MC4 Catalog_PV_Sol-Main-11014092_(en)_hi.pdf URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Aug 25 18:37:10 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 15:37:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol Connectors In-Reply-To: <975dbe59-bbe7-0f1b-aebe-2a44c121b476@berkeleysolar.com> References: <975dbe59-bbe7-0f1b-aebe-2a44c121b476@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: It was a bad week for Tesla. Below are some links. https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Walmart-sues-Tesla-over-string-of-solar-panel-14364829.php https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-walmarts-joint-statement-resolution-talks/ https://gizmodo.com/amazon-echoes-walmarts-claims-that-tesla-solar-panels-s-1837529249 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 15:21:15 -0700, Mark Frye wrote: > Speaking of Tesla... > > What with Walmart and (Amazon?) suing them for PV fires... > > Can anyone here give a brief run down on the whole Amphenol UTX (?) > defective or cross-mated connector story? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Aug 25 22:53:37 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 19:53:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol Connectors In-Reply-To: References: <975dbe59-bbe7-0f1b-aebe-2a44c121b476@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Here is another https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/08/how-elon-musk-gambled-tesla-to-save-solarcity > On Aug 25, 2019, at 3:37 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > It was a bad week for Tesla. Below are some links. > > https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Walmart-sues-Tesla-over-string-of-solar-panel-14364829.php > > https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-walmarts-joint-statement-resolution-talks/ > > https://gizmodo.com/amazon-echoes-walmarts-claims-that-tesla-solar-panels-s-1837529249 > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 15:21:15 -0700, Mark Frye > wrote: >> Speaking of Tesla... >> >> What with Walmart and (Amazon?) suing them for PV fires... >> >> Can anyone here give a brief run down on the whole Amphenol UTX (?) >> defective or cross-mated connector story? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mark Frye >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Aug 26 09:33:01 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 09:33:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker that has horizontal axis in east-west orientation? Message-ID: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> Not too long ago there were postings about residential trackers. I put in a plug for Array Tech, but we are having a very hard time with getting information on the controller and how to get it to work for our case. I have moved the sensor every which way but pointing down....... Their controller comes from the commercial/utility side of the company and is designed to place as many modules on a foot print and eliminate shading which isn't an issue if you are putting in one single tracker.  The horizontal axis is north south, and the modules move east west. The array is a  zero tilt which is non optimal for most of the year.  Does anyone know of a single axis tracker that is designed for east west horizontal axis so the modules can adjust throughout the day and seasons with the modules facing south?  Thank you, Chris Warfel From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Aug 26 11:01:54 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 08:01:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Residential_tracker_that_has_horizontal_?= =?utf-8?q?axis_in_east-west_orientation=3F?= In-Reply-To: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Chris, Can you restate this, I do not understand. I use alot of these and have quite a bit of experience with Wattsun, formerly Array tech, formerly Wattsun. I am also looking for a single axis that is on a 6 inch pole. Wattsun only makes the 8 inch that needs a back-hoe for lifting. Too heavy for most offgrid. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 09:33:01 -0400, Christopher Warfel wrote: > Not too long ago there were postings about residential trackers. I put > in a plug for Array Tech, but we are having a very hard time with > getting information on the controller and how to get it to work for our > case. I have moved the sensor every which way but pointing down....... > Their controller comes from the commercial/utility side of the company > and is designed to place as many modules on a foot print and eliminate > shading which isn't an issue if you are putting in one single tracker.  > The horizontal axis is north south, and the modules move east west. The > array is a  zero tilt which is non optimal for most of the year.  Does > anyone know of a single axis tracker that is designed for east west > horizontal axis so the modules can adjust throughout the day and seasons > with the modules facing south?  Thank you, Chris Warfel > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Mon Aug 26 15:37:25 2019 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 12:37:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Amphenol Connectors In-Reply-To: References: <975dbe59-bbe7-0f1b-aebe-2a44c121b476@berkeleysolar.com> <001d01d55ba6$d6a5b360$83f11a20$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <1566848286572.6090265469a46ccd@re-wrenches.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Aug 26 17:41:40 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 14:41:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow-frame damage In-Reply-To: References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <92666e9c-d695-90dd-068b-3b35e4b031eb@psln.com> I've got a customer that is pushing me to lower the bottom edge of a multipole rack array to make it less visible from his house (which is .6 miles away!).  Its 4 PVs in landscape, I currently have it designed with the lower edge at 3.5 feet off the ground which is actually questionable with the 2-3 feet of snow we get here sometimes. Flat ground, 25 degree pitch.             If anybody has pics (or words of wisdom) of the bottom edge of a PV frame being ripped of due to snow not being able to shed properly from /this //type of installation (or pole mount would help)/, I would appreciate the help. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Aug 26 17:46:30 2019 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 14:46:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow-frame damage In-Reply-To: <92666e9c-d695-90dd-068b-3b35e4b031eb@psln.com> References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <92666e9c-d695-90dd-068b-3b35e4b031eb@psln.com> Message-ID: Todd Cory and I have seen this many times. Around here, I won’t let the bottom edge of an array be less than 7’ off the ground. The one time I relented to a customers wishes and placed a 1200w pole top array with the bottom edge 5’ above grade, the bottom modules were destroyed in an 06’ snowstorm. I actually compiled a portfolio and case study of a dozen and a half snow damaged arrays from this area to present to Wholesale Solar, who was and still continues to sell ground mounts around here. I lost the pictures shortly afterwards but I bet Todd still has some. > On Aug 26, 2019, at 2:41 PM, frenergy wrote: > > I've got a customer that is pushing me to lower the bottom edge of a multipole rack array to make it less visible from his house (which is .6 miles away!). Its 4 PVs in landscape, I currently have it designed with the lower edge at 3.5 feet off the ground which is actually questionable with the 2-3 feet of snow we get here sometimes. Flat ground, 25 degree pitch. > If anybody has pics (or words of wisdom) of the bottom edge of a PV frame being ripped of due to snow not being able to shed properly from this type of installation (or pole mount would help), I would appreciate the help. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > Virus-free. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: img-2.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Aug 27 07:35:53 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 07:35:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker that has horizontal axis in east-west orientation? In-Reply-To: References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> Hi Dave, I am looking for a tracker that the horizontal "tube" runs east west, so that the modules, when placed in portrait mode, are facing south and will adjust their tilt angle based upon mostly by the season.  They have it so the horizontal tube runs north south and the module rotate east west following the daily sun. The cannot be adjusted to account for latitude . At noon, no matter what season they will be flat. It's no good as you get further north.  Hope this makes more sense.  Chris On 8/26/2019 11:01 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > Chris, > > Can you restate this, I do not understand. I use alot of these and have > quite a bit of experience with Wattsun, formerly Array tech, formerly > Wattsun. I am also looking for a single axis that is on a 6 inch pole. > Wattsun only makes the 8 inch that needs a back-hoe for lifting. Too heavy > for most offgrid. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 09:33:01 -0400, Christopher Warfel > wrote: >> Not too long ago there were postings about residential trackers. I put >> in a plug for Array Tech, but we are having a very hard time with >> getting information on the controller and how to get it to work for our >> case. I have moved the sensor every which way but pointing down....... >> Their controller comes from the commercial/utility side of the company >> and is designed to place as many modules on a foot print and eliminate >> shading which isn't an issue if you are putting in one single tracker. >> The horizontal axis is north south, and the modules move east west. The >> array is a  zero tilt which is non optimal for most of the year.  Does >> anyone know of a single axis tracker that is designed for east west >> horizontal axis so the modules can adjust throughout the day and seasons >> with the modules facing south?  Thank you, Chris Warfel >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Aug 27 10:24:21 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 07:24:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Residential_tracker_that_has_horizontal_?= =?utf-8?q?axis_in_east-west_orientation=3F?= In-Reply-To: <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <493fd23aab317688f989247988d7dc91@127.0.0.1> Hmm Chris, How far south? Like the equator? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 07:35:53 -0400, Christopher Warfel wrote: > Hi Dave, I am looking for a tracker that the horizontal "tube" runs east > west, so that the modules, when placed in portrait mode, are facing > south and will adjust their tilt angle based upon mostly by the season.  > They have it so the horizontal tube runs north south and the module > rotate east west following the daily sun. The cannot be adjusted to > account for latitude . At noon, no matter what season they will be flat. > It's no good as you get further north.  Hope this makes more sense.  Chris > > On 8/26/2019 11:01 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> Chris, >> >> Can you restate this, I do not understand. I use alot of these and have >> quite a bit of experience with Wattsun, formerly Array tech, formerly >> Wattsun. I am also looking for a single axis that is on a 6 inch pole. >> Wattsun only makes the 8 inch that needs a back-hoe for lifting. Too >> heavy >> for most offgrid. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 09:33:01 -0400, Christopher Warfel >> wrote: >>> Not too long ago there were postings about residential trackers. I put >>> in a plug for Array Tech, but we are having a very hard time with >>> getting information on the controller and how to get it to work for our >>> case. I have moved the sensor every which way but pointing down....... >>> Their controller comes from the commercial/utility side of the company >>> and is designed to place as many modules on a foot print and eliminate >>> shading which isn't an issue if you are putting in one single tracker. >>> The horizontal axis is north south, and the modules move east west. The >>> array is a  zero tilt which is non optimal for most of the year.  Does >>> anyone know of a single axis tracker that is designed for east west >>> horizontal axis so the modules can adjust throughout the day and seasons >>> with the modules facing south?  Thank you, Chris Warfel >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From jj at aprsworld.com Tue Aug 27 08:16:14 2019 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 07:16:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker that has horizontal axis in east-west orientation? In-Reply-To: <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Try US Solar Mounts: https://www.ussolarmounts.us/products/adjustable-ground-mount/tracking-system/ -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC This message sent from my cell phone. My apologies for brevity and spelling errors. On Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 06:35 Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > Hi Dave, I am looking for a tracker that the horizontal "tube" runs east > west, so that the modules, when placed in portrait mode, are facing > south and will adjust their tilt angle based upon mostly by the season. > They have it so the horizontal tube runs north south and the module > rotate east west following the daily sun. The cannot be adjusted to > account for latitude . At noon, no matter what season they will be flat. > It's no good as you get further north. Hope this makes more sense. Chris > > On 8/26/2019 11:01 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Chris, > > > > Can you restate this, I do not understand. I use alot of these and have > > quite a bit of experience with Wattsun, formerly Array tech, formerly > > Wattsun. I am also looking for a single axis that is on a 6 inch pole. > > Wattsun only makes the 8 inch that needs a back-hoe for lifting. Too > heavy > > for most offgrid. > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > > > On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 09:33:01 -0400, Christopher Warfel > > wrote: > >> Not too long ago there were postings about residential trackers. I put > >> in a plug for Array Tech, but we are having a very hard time with > >> getting information on the controller and how to get it to work for our > >> case. I have moved the sensor every which way but pointing down....... > >> Their controller comes from the commercial/utility side of the company > >> and is designed to place as many modules on a foot print and eliminate > >> shading which isn't an issue if you are putting in one single tracker. > >> The horizontal axis is north south, and the modules move east west. The > >> array is a zero tilt which is non optimal for most of the year. Does > >> anyone know of a single axis tracker that is designed for east west > >> horizontal axis so the modules can adjust throughout the day and seasons > >> with the modules facing south? Thank you, Chris Warfel > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 27 09:36:17 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 06:36:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker that has horizontal axis in east-west orientation? In-Reply-To: <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, Can you bypass the automatic control and just make it manual tilt control? Jay > On Aug 27, 2019, at 4:35 AM, Christopher Warfel wrote: > > Hi Dave, I am looking for a tracker that the horizontal "tube" runs east west, so that the modules, when placed in portrait mode, are facing south and will adjust their tilt angle based upon mostly by the season. They have it so the horizontal tube runs north south and the module rotate east west following the daily sun. The cannot be adjusted to account for latitude . At noon, no matter what season they will be flat. It's no good as you get further north. Hope this makes more sense. Chris > >> On 8/26/2019 11:01 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> Chris, >> >> Can you restate this, I do not understand. I use alot of these and have >> quite a bit of experience with Wattsun, formerly Array tech, formerly >> Wattsun. I am also looking for a single axis that is on a 6 inch pole. >> Wattsun only makes the 8 inch that needs a back-hoe for lifting. Too heavy >> for most offgrid. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 09:33:01 -0400, Christopher Warfel >> wrote: >>> Not too long ago there were postings about residential trackers. I put >>> in a plug for Array Tech, but we are having a very hard time with >>> getting information on the controller and how to get it to work for our >>> case. I have moved the sensor every which way but pointing down....... >>> Their controller comes from the commercial/utility side of the company >>> and is designed to place as many modules on a foot print and eliminate >>> shading which isn't an issue if you are putting in one single tracker. >>> The horizontal axis is north south, and the modules move east west. The >>> array is a zero tilt which is non optimal for most of the year. Does >>> anyone know of a single axis tracker that is designed for east west >>> horizontal axis so the modules can adjust throughout the day and seasons >>> with the modules facing south? Thank you, Chris Warfel >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Aug 27 13:15:40 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 13:15:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker that has horizontal axis in east-west orientation? In-Reply-To: References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <00e2cbb9-284e-48d9-4984-20a721b0159a@entech-engineering.com> Yes, but you need to be quite persistent with pressing two buttons simultaneously.  I have not been able to get it in manual mode.  They do make a manual tracker that you can adjust  in about 20 seconds with a 5/8" socket wrench.  The site has infrequent occupancy so we were trying to get away from manual adjustments. On 8/27/2019 9:36 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi Chris, > > Can you bypass the automatic control and just make it manual tilt control? > > Jay > >> On Aug 27, 2019, at 4:35 AM, Christopher Warfel wrote: >> >> Hi Dave, I am looking for a tracker that the horizontal "tube" runs east west, so that the modules, when placed in portrait mode, are facing south and will adjust their tilt angle based upon mostly by the season. They have it so the horizontal tube runs north south and the module rotate east west following the daily sun. The cannot be adjusted to account for latitude . At noon, no matter what season they will be flat. It's no good as you get further north. Hope this makes more sense. Chris >> >>> On 8/26/2019 11:01 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>> Chris, >>> >>> Can you restate this, I do not understand. I use alot of these and have >>> quite a bit of experience with Wattsun, formerly Array tech, formerly >>> Wattsun. I am also looking for a single axis that is on a 6 inch pole. >>> Wattsun only makes the 8 inch that needs a back-hoe for lifting. Too heavy >>> for most offgrid. >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>> >>> On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 09:33:01 -0400, Christopher Warfel >>> wrote: >>>> Not too long ago there were postings about residential trackers. I put >>>> in a plug for Array Tech, but we are having a very hard time with >>>> getting information on the controller and how to get it to work for our >>>> case. I have moved the sensor every which way but pointing down....... >>>> Their controller comes from the commercial/utility side of the company >>>> and is designed to place as many modules on a foot print and eliminate >>>> shading which isn't an issue if you are putting in one single tracker. >>>> The horizontal axis is north south, and the modules move east west. The >>>> array is a zero tilt which is non optimal for most of the year. Does >>>> anyone know of a single axis tracker that is designed for east west >>>> horizontal axis so the modules can adjust throughout the day and seasons >>>> with the modules facing south? Thank you, Chris Warfel >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Aug 27 13:16:04 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 13:16:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker that has horizontal axis in east-west orientation? In-Reply-To: <493fd23aab317688f989247988d7dc91@127.0.0.1> References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> <493fd23aab317688f989247988d7dc91@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Yes, that would be the ticket. On 8/27/2019 10:24 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > Hmm Chris, > > How far south? Like the equator? > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 07:35:53 -0400, Christopher Warfel > wrote: >> Hi Dave, I am looking for a tracker that the horizontal "tube" runs east >> west, so that the modules, when placed in portrait mode, are facing >> south and will adjust their tilt angle based upon mostly by the season. >> They have it so the horizontal tube runs north south and the module >> rotate east west following the daily sun. The cannot be adjusted to >> account for latitude . At noon, no matter what season they will be flat. >> It's no good as you get further north.  Hope this makes more sense. > Chris >> On 8/26/2019 11:01 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>> Chris, >>> >>> Can you restate this, I do not understand. I use alot of these and have >>> quite a bit of experience with Wattsun, formerly Array tech, formerly >>> Wattsun. I am also looking for a single axis that is on a 6 inch pole. >>> Wattsun only makes the 8 inch that needs a back-hoe for lifting. Too >>> heavy >>> for most offgrid. >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>> >>> On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 09:33:01 -0400, Christopher Warfel >>> wrote: >>>> Not too long ago there were postings about residential trackers. I put >>>> in a plug for Array Tech, but we are having a very hard time with >>>> getting information on the controller and how to get it to work for > our >>>> case. I have moved the sensor every which way but pointing down....... >>>> Their controller comes from the commercial/utility side of the company >>>> and is designed to place as many modules on a foot print and eliminate >>>> shading which isn't an issue if you are putting in one single tracker. >>>> The horizontal axis is north south, and the modules move east west. > The >>>> array is a  zero tilt which is non optimal for most of the year.  Does >>>> anyone know of a single axis tracker that is designed for east west >>>> horizontal axis so the modules can adjust throughout the day and > seasons >>>> with the modules facing south?  Thank you, Chris Warfel >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org From frenergy at psln.com Tue Aug 27 13:45:19 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 10:45:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backfeed in PG&E territory In-Reply-To: <493fd23aab317688f989247988d7dc91@127.0.0.1> References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> <493fd23aab317688f989247988d7dc91@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <38406b9c-bbee-d8b9-d47a-574fe8295052@psln.com> Wrenches,             Is the only a way to back feed 128 amps (240v, split PH) onto a 200 amp panel is to tap the conductors between the meter and the main CB, assuming I can pull it off in the "customer section" of the panel.  Of course with the requisite AC disco within 10 feet.  Or, has anybody ever gotten a written approval from a panel manu to thread a 1/4" hole in a bus between the meter and the main CB to install a lug for accepting a backfeed source? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Aug 27 11:17:45 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 08:17:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Residential_tracker_that_has_horizontal_?= =?utf-8?q?axis_in_east-west_orientation=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <695e96c59393c2a39d05c68feb102293@127.0.0.1> Very good point Jay ! On the HZLA you can and just mount the torque tube east west. No warranty maybe but it might not matter. I assume this is for somewhere near the equator? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 06:36:17 -0700, Jay wrote: > Hi Chris, > > Can you bypass the automatic control and just make it manual tilt control? > > Jay > >> On Aug 27, 2019, at 4:35 AM, Christopher Warfel >> wrote: >> >> Hi Dave, I am looking for a tracker that the horizontal "tube" runs east >> west, so that the modules, when placed in portrait mode, are facing south >> and will adjust their tilt angle based upon mostly by the season. They >> have it so the horizontal tube runs north south and the module rotate >> east west following the daily sun. The cannot be adjusted to account for >> latitude . At noon, no matter what season they will be flat. It's no good >> as you get further north. Hope this makes more sense. Chris >> >>> On 8/26/2019 11:01 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>> Chris, >>> >>> Can you restate this, I do not understand. I use alot of these and have >>> quite a bit of experience with Wattsun, formerly Array tech, formerly >>> Wattsun. I am also looking for a single axis that is on a 6 inch pole. >>> Wattsun only makes the 8 inch that needs a back-hoe for lifting. Too >>> heavy >>> for most offgrid. >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>> >>> On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 09:33:01 -0400, Christopher Warfel >>> wrote: >>>> Not too long ago there were postings about residential trackers. I put >>>> in a plug for Array Tech, but we are having a very hard time with >>>> getting information on the controller and how to get it to work for our >>>> case. I have moved the sensor every which way but pointing down....... >>>> Their controller comes from the commercial/utility side of the company >>>> and is designed to place as many modules on a foot print and eliminate >>>> shading which isn't an issue if you are putting in one single tracker. >>>> The horizontal axis is north south, and the modules move east west. The >>>> array is a zero tilt which is non optimal for most of the year. Does >>>> anyone know of a single axis tracker that is designed for east west >>>> horizontal axis so the modules can adjust throughout the day and >>>> seasons >>>> with the modules facing south? Thank you, Chris Warfel >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From atruitt at gmail.com Tue Aug 27 12:21:42 2019 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 10:21:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker that has horizontal axis in east-west orientation? In-Reply-To: References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Another potential option: http://www.sulasindustries.com/ Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 9:04 AM James Jarvis wrote: > Try US Solar Mounts: > > > https://www.ussolarmounts.us/products/adjustable-ground-mount/tracking-system/ > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > > This message sent from my cell phone. My apologies for brevity and > spelling errors. > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 06:35 Christopher Warfel < > cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > >> Hi Dave, I am looking for a tracker that the horizontal "tube" runs east >> west, so that the modules, when placed in portrait mode, are facing >> south and will adjust their tilt angle based upon mostly by the season. >> They have it so the horizontal tube runs north south and the module >> rotate east west following the daily sun. The cannot be adjusted to >> account for latitude . At noon, no matter what season they will be flat. >> It's no good as you get further north. Hope this makes more sense. Chris >> >> On 8/26/2019 11:01 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> > Chris, >> > >> > Can you restate this, I do not understand. I use alot of these and have >> > quite a bit of experience with Wattsun, formerly Array tech, formerly >> > Wattsun. I am also looking for a single axis that is on a 6 inch pole. >> > Wattsun only makes the 8 inch that needs a back-hoe for lifting. Too >> heavy >> > for most offgrid. >> > >> > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> > "we go where powerlines don't" >> > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> > text 209 813 0060 >> > >> > On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 09:33:01 -0400, Christopher Warfel >> > wrote: >> >> Not too long ago there were postings about residential trackers. I put >> >> in a plug for Array Tech, but we are having a very hard time with >> >> getting information on the controller and how to get it to work for our >> >> case. I have moved the sensor every which way but pointing down....... >> >> Their controller comes from the commercial/utility side of the company >> >> and is designed to place as many modules on a foot print and eliminate >> >> shading which isn't an issue if you are putting in one single tracker. >> >> The horizontal axis is north south, and the modules move east west. The >> >> array is a zero tilt which is non optimal for most of the year. Does >> >> anyone know of a single axis tracker that is designed for east west >> >> horizontal axis so the modules can adjust throughout the day and >> seasons >> >> with the modules facing south? Thank you, Chris Warfel >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> >> >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Aug 27 14:31:48 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 11:31:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backfeed in PG&E territory In-Reply-To: <38406b9c-bbee-d8b9-d47a-574fe8295052@psln.com> References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> <493fd23aab317688f989247988d7dc91@127.0.0.1> <38406b9c-bbee-d8b9-d47a-574fe8295052@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill The meter main is an UL approved product, any alterations may effect that in the eyes of the inspector or PG&E. I have done a breakout panel where l was exceeding the 20% rule but a 128 amp still may be an issue. The break out panel is a connection where there are breakers all around to protect all the connections. You need to confirm that PG&E will require a disco, you might to eliminate a breaker though. The breakout panel is not always approved either. Can you upgrade the panel with dual 200 amp outputs, one goes to a breaker bus and the other just taps out. This would be less of a liability issue l would think also. These panels do what you want and are UL Approved. Jerry On Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 10:40 AM frenergy wrote: > Wrenches, > > Is the only a way to back feed 128 amps (240v, split PH) > onto a 200 amp panel is to tap the conductors between the meter and the > main CB, assuming I can pull it off in the "customer section" of the > panel. Of course with the requisite AC disco within 10 feet. Or, has > anybody ever gotten a written approval from a panel manu to thread a > 1/4" hole in a bus between the meter and the main CB to install a lug > for accepting a backfeed source? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Aug 27 15:27:13 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 09:27:13 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 5548 Message-ID: Wrenches Is there anyone still repairing the older Xantrex boards, I have a main (mother) board that is glitching, I thought there was a guy on the list that does this any Ideas Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Tue Aug 27 15:34:53 2019 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 19:34:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 5548 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jerry, I recently rebuilt a SW4048 with board testing and repair by Craig Kilburn at Phantom Power Services. He was fast and reasonable. craig at phantompowerservices.com Lloyd Hoffstatter That solar guy Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jerry Shafer Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 3:27:13 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 5548 Wrenches Is there anyone still repairing the older Xantrex boards, I have a main (mother) board that is glitching, I thought there was a guy on the list that does this any Ideas Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Aug 27 20:12:36 2019 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 17:12:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backfeed in PG&E territory In-Reply-To: References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> <493fd23aab317688f989247988d7dc91@127.0.0.1> <38406b9c-bbee-d8b9-d47a-574fe8295052@psln.com> Message-ID: <0F04BFBA-DD12-4686-9E60-BDFF4A81C0A1@gmail.com> I’ve done just that in Pacific Power territory. The first time, they asked for an EE’s approval. That cost $500.00. > On Aug 27, 2019, at 11:31 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Bill > The meter main is an UL approved product, any alterations may effect that in the eyes of the inspector or PG&E. I have done a breakout panel where l was exceeding the 20% rule but a 128 amp still may be an issue. The break out panel is a connection where there are breakers all around to protect all the connections. You need to confirm that PG&E will require a disco, you might to eliminate a breaker though. The breakout panel is not always approved either. Can you upgrade the panel with dual 200 amp outputs, one goes to a breaker bus and the other just taps out. This would be less of a liability issue l would think also. These panels do what you want and are UL Approved. > Jerry > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 10:40 AM frenergy > wrote: > Wrenches, > > Is the only a way to back feed 128 amps (240v, split PH) > onto a 200 amp panel is to tap the conductors between the meter and the > main CB, assuming I can pull it off in the "customer section" of the > panel. Of course with the requisite AC disco within 10 feet. Or, has > anybody ever gotten a written approval from a panel manu to thread a > 1/4" hole in a bus between the meter and the main CB to install a lug > for accepting a backfeed source? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Tue Aug 27 17:08:23 2019 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 11:08:23 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buy American Act- compliant modules Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, Are any you able to get “Buy American Act” compliant modules, or know where I can get them I know there are a couple of different versions of the Buy America type provisions. I believe they need to be 51% American components and assembled here to be compliant with the “Buy American Act”. Maybe Panasonic?? I am looking for 325kW of modules. Mahalo in advance, *James B. Rudolph* *Hawai'i Unified* *Director of Energy* *ES Electrician # 10816* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* *808.594.9969* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ryan.harkins at energycraft.com Wed Aug 28 00:11:37 2019 From: ryan.harkins at energycraft.com (Ryan Harkins) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 23:11:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buy American Act- compliant modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mission Solar’s 72 cells are 375w and BAA compliant for our projects out of Texas. Ryan > On Aug 27, 2019, at 4:08 PM, James Rudolph wrote: > > Aloha Wrenches, > Are any you able to get “Buy American Act” compliant modules, or know where I can get them > > I know there are a couple of different versions of the Buy America type provisions. I believe they need to be 51% American components and assembled here to be compliant with the “Buy American Act”. > > Maybe Panasonic?? > > I am looking for 325kW of modules. > > Mahalo in advance, > > > > James B. Rudolph > Hawai'i Unified > Director of Energy > ES Electrician # 10816 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 > 808.594.9969 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Aug 28 08:40:33 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 08:40:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Percent of DC capacity that is inverted to AC kWh? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53417851-a1c5-b4ad-1794-ca2a16dc605d@entech-engineering.com> We reached the cap for the utility where we work for renewable energy interconnection until there is Rhode Island State legislative action to raise the cap.  I am going through the utility records as they are not completely accurate. Does anyone know of a reference that can point to what percentage of dc capacity actually comes out as ac power.  Looking at various inefficiencies and the battery load, I am estimating about a 15% "loss".  I realize a lot depends upon the design, and the state of the batteries, but I am just looking for sounding board opinions, or a reference if available. Thank you, Chris From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Aug 28 09:31:08 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 09:31:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Percent of DC capacity that is inverted to AC kWh? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <263656f9-96cf-81fc-3276-3325e1cffda8@entech-engineering.com> Hi Dan, Sorry for the confusion. Maybe an example would help.  Take a 2000 w dc multimode system that is coupled with a 3600 w ac rated multimode inverter.  What percentage of the dc capacity is inverted into ac capacity.  So, roughly 2000 x .9 (wiring and similar losses from array to battery) x .95 for an assumed 5% usage to charge/float the batteries x .98 for dc to ac inverter efficiency makes me think that 2000 x .9 x .95 x .98 * (4.5 x 365) yields = 2,752 kWh annually. The utility is assuming roughly 3600 x .98 x (4.5 x 365) {if they are assuming anything at all} = 5,368 kWh revenue lost. The regulatory assumption overestimates the capacity factor by @49%. I'll post to the WRENCHES too to help clarify hopefully.   Chris On 8/28/2019 9:10 AM, Dan Lepinski, P.E. wrote: > OFF-LINE REPLY > > Hello Chris, > > The wording of your question is confusing. You ask about the percentage of DC capacity vs AC power output, then add batteries into the mix. > > What system topology is the focus of your query? > > I'll be glad to do what I can to assist. Just need clear direction on the configuration. > > > Regards, > > > Dan > From august at luminalt.com Wed Aug 28 09:50:59 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 06:50:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Percent of DC capacity that is inverted to AC kWh? In-Reply-To: <263656f9-96cf-81fc-3276-3325e1cffda8@entech-engineering.com> References: <263656f9-96cf-81fc-3276-3325e1cffda8@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris - I'd recommend reading through the PVWatts Calculator and manual: https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/ If you click the help button you'll get to the manual, and you can simulate a sample system by just entering in a zip code. The default settings estimate losses at about 14% prior to the inverter efficiency loss. https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/ [image: image.png] August Luminalt On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 6:31 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > Hi Dan, Sorry for the confusion. > > Maybe an example would help. Take a 2000 w dc multimode system that is > coupled with a 3600 w ac rated multimode inverter. What percentage of > the dc capacity is inverted into ac capacity. So, roughly 2000 x .9 > (wiring and similar losses from array to battery) x .95 for an assumed > 5% usage to charge/float the batteries x .98 for dc to ac inverter > efficiency makes me think that 2000 x .9 x .95 x .98 * (4.5 x 365) > yields = 2,752 kWh annually. The utility is assuming roughly 3600 x .98 > x (4.5 x 365) {if they are assuming anything at all} = 5,368 kWh revenue > lost. The regulatory assumption overestimates the capacity factor by @49%. > > I'll post to the WRENCHES too to help clarify hopefully. Chris > > On 8/28/2019 9:10 AM, Dan Lepinski, P.E. wrote: > > OFF-LINE REPLY > > > > Hello Chris, > > > > The wording of your question is confusing. You ask about the percentage > of DC capacity vs AC power output, then add batteries into the mix. > > > > What system topology is the focus of your query? > > > > I'll be glad to do what I can to assist. Just need clear direction on > the configuration. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Dan > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 160329 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Aug 28 13:20:11 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 13:20:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Percent of DC capacity that is inverted to AC kWh? In-Reply-To: <53417851-a1c5-b4ad-1794-ca2a16dc605d@entech-engineering.com> References: <53417851-a1c5-b4ad-1794-ca2a16dc605d@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <009b01d55dc4$da3d95e0$8eb8c1a0$@glbcc.com> Does SAM or HOMER do this? -Glenn -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 8:41 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Percent of DC capacity that is inverted to AC kWh? We reached the cap for the utility where we work for renewable energy interconnection until there is Rhode Island State legislative action to raise the cap. I am going through the utility records as they are not completely accurate. Does anyone know of a reference that can point to what percentage of dc capacity actually comes out as ac power. Looking at various inefficiencies and the battery load, I am estimating about a 15% "loss". I realize a lot depends upon the design, and the state of the batteries, but I am just looking for sounding board opinions, or a reference if available. Thank you, Chris _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Aug 28 14:38:57 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 11:38:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Percent_of_DC_capacity_that_is_inverted_?= =?utf-8?q?to_AC_kWh=3F?= In-Reply-To: <009b01d55dc4$da3d95e0$8eb8c1a0$@glbcc.com> References: <53417851-a1c5-b4ad-1794-ca2a16dc605d@entech-engineering.com> <009b01d55dc4$da3d95e0$8eb8c1a0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <3628de82144180e817cc358201f1074a@127.0.0.1> A Radian is 90% weighted and XW is 92.5% weighted. This is one way DC to AC output. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 13:20:11 -0400, "Glenn Burt" wrote: > Does SAM or HOMER do this? > > -Glenn > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of > Christopher Warfel > Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 8:41 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Percent of DC capacity that is inverted to AC kWh? > > We reached the cap for the utility where we work for renewable energy > interconnection until there is Rhode Island State legislative action to > raise the cap. I am going through the utility records as they are not > completely accurate. Does anyone know of a reference that can point to what > percentage of dc capacity actually comes out as ac power. Looking at > various inefficiencies and the battery load, I am estimating about a 15% > "loss". I realize a lot depends upon the design, and the state of the > batteries, but I am just looking for sounding board opinions, or a > reference if available. Thank you, Chris > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Aug 28 17:12:57 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 17:12:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Percent of DC capacity that is inverted to AC kWh? In-Reply-To: References: <263656f9-96cf-81fc-3276-3325e1cffda8@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hi all, Thank you for the feedback.  I realize there are a lot of unknowns.  I am attempting to show regulators and the utility that a cap based upon solely ac ratings of the inverters may be easy to administrate, but it greatly overestimates revenue erosion and any rate design that would capture the revenue needed to meet fixed costs.  I am going to have to aggregate a "unit" that reflects fairly standard and common installations including the information below, and see how the utility and regulators react.  The utility was just taken over by the Town and there is a lot of plant work that needs to be done. They think solar is taking away from that even though the Charter is all about the environment.......   We get into line rebuilding, distributed generation advantages, but we are only about 5MW peak, so they don't have the engineers/economists to easily do these calcs. Chris On 8/28/2019 10:26 AM, Dan Lepinski, P.E. wrote: > Hello Chris, > > Thank you for the example. It helped .. but not completely. > > See if this is what you have in mind: > > PV -> Inverter ---V > ^ V > V ATS -> Grid > Battery Loads > > PV = 2 kW STC rating. > Inverter has an internal MPPT charge controller. > Automatic Transfer Switch "ATS" disconnects the system in the event of a utility failure. > Battery provides storage in the event of a utility failure. Chemistry not identified. > > Presuming the above is correct: > > There isn't a clear-cut answer to your question due to the number of uncontrolled variables involved. > > However, some variables can be generally addressed: > > 1. Battery chemistry. Lead-acid? Li-Ion? > 2. Site location (for average temperature, annual insolation, etc.) > 3. PV mechanical considerations: Azimuth? Tilt? Mounting method? > > > It appears you're seeking an estimated value for total annual energy production. Subsequently, I'll proceed on that basis: > > For very generalized analysis, actual overall PV output is 85-88% of their label ratings. Much of the decrease is due to cells operating above STC temperature of 25C. Haze, pollution, weather, dirt on the PV, and other factors are also considerations. Use 86%. > > There are two key aspects to charge controllers in this discussion: 1. How well do they track the actual maximum power point? 2. Conversion efficiency? For your purposes, estimate an overall efficiency factor of 95%. > > Whether battery efficiency plays into this or not depends on how often the system operates on battery power only, depth of discharge, age of the batteries, and battery chemistry .. for openers. If lead-acid, there's another aspect called the "Peukert's Law" (or the "Peukert formula") that has to be factored in. Peukert says the higher the rate you withdraw stored energy from a L-A battery, the less you get. It's akin to saying, the faster you drive, the worse your miles per gallon. > > Inverter efficiency varies depending on the point of their curve on which it's operating. The "sweet spot" tends to be mid-range. For a 3.6 kW, and only 2 kW of PV, you'll never exceed the inverter's mid-range. For a typical grid-interactive inverter today, use 97%. > > Batteries have a round-trip efficiency of approximately 90% for new lead-acid, and slightly better than 90% for Li-Ion. As L-A batteries age, efficiency decreases. Near end of life, L-A batteries are in the 80-85% range. This also varies with the method of charging. L-A also require periodic conditioning charges (also known as an "equalizing" charge). Li-Ion are better in that respect, losing approximately 0.5% per year, and don't require conditioning. However, efficiency in both topologies depends on how often the battery is discharged, how deeply it's discharged, and for L-A, how long the battery sits in a less than 100% state of charge condition before being fully recharged. Heat also takes its toll on L-A batteries in life and efficiency. When used in repeated discharge/recharge cycles, for L-A, use 88%. For Li-Ion, use 92%. > > Battery float current also varies with chemistry. L-A batteries consume nominally 0.3 to 0.5% of the rated amp-hour value. Thus for a 48 volt, 300 amp-hour battery .. the float current would be 1 to 1.5 amps. This value will vary with battery temperature. It's higher in L-A batteries than Li-Ion. Compromise and use 1.25% for L-A, and 1% for Li-Ion. > > Wiring loss in a well-designed system is recommended to be 2.5% for best practices. This is inclusive of all BOS hardware, connectors, and so forth. Use 2.5%. > > Finally, on reading your reply below .. I infer from the information the site gets 4.5 hours of "good" sunlight per day. > > I'm unable to proceed beyond this point due to lack of information related to the PV azimuth, tilt, mounting method, and other variables. Hopefully you can plug those in .. and with the information above .. derive a better estimate of annual AC energy from the system. > > > Regards, > > > Dan > > P.S. You may not get admonished by Michael W for inadvertently including my identifying information in your re-post to the Wrenches. I'm not an installer, and no longer with any manufacturer. For that reason, Mr. Welch has deemed me "unqualified" to post to the Wrench BBS, and persona non grata where the the BBS is concerned. One of your colleagues on the board posted one of my comments a year or so back .. and was contacted by Michael for doing so. Michael told him if he ever posted information to the BBS that originated from me, he too would be blocked from making any future posts. > > You're welcome to post anything I send to you. I would ask for your own sake, and continued participation on the Wrench board, that in re-posting information .. you omit anything that would identify me as the source. I have a somewhat unique style of writing, so it's also suggested you change the ".." and other characteristics to resemble what you'd type. Plagiarize away. I'm OK with it. > > > > > Dan Lepinski, P.E. > Professional Solar Consultant & Electrical Design Engineer > Serving the Solar Industry Since 1972 > 817.884.6081 (cell) > > > * 2010 State of Texas Renewable Energy Industries Association Honoree > and Award Recipient for Meritorious Achievement in Renewable Energy. > > * 2016 Memnosyne Institute Sustainable Leadership Award > > * 2017 United States Department of Energy National BCAP Project - 2017 & Ongoing... > (One of only two engineers selected nationwide for the program.) > > * 2019 State of Texas Energy Advisory Council Member > > > Professional Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-lepinski-p-e-5339bb22/ > > "Scientists investigate that which already is; engineers create that which has never been." > ~ Albert Einstein > > Unless indicated otherwise, all information contained in this message is privileged and confidential. As such, it is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named above, and others who have been specifically authorized to receive it. Correspondence designated as privileged and confidential is subject to all terms and conditions of any Confidentiality Agreements and/or Non-Disclosure Agreements in effect between our respective parties. > > On 8/28/19 8:31 AM, Christopher Warfel wrote: >> Hi Dan, Sorry for the confusion. >> >> Maybe an example would help.  Take a 2000 w dc multimode system that is >> coupled with a 3600 w ac rated multimode inverter.  What percentage of >> the dc capacity is inverted into ac capacity.  So, roughly 2000 x .9 >> (wiring and similar losses from array to battery) x .95 for an assumed >> 5% usage to charge/float the batteries x .98 for dc to ac inverter >> efficiency makes me think that 2000 x .9 x .95 x .98 * (4.5 x 365) >> yields = 2,752 kWh annually. The utility is assuming roughly 3600 x .98 >> x (4.5 x 365) {if they are assuming anything at all} = 5,368 kWh revenue >> lost. The regulatory assumption overestimates the capacity factor by @49%. >> >> I'll post to the WRENCHES too to help clarify hopefully.   Chris >> >> On 8/28/2019 9:10 AM, Dan Lepinski, P.E. wrote: >>> OFF-LINE REPLY >>> >>> Hello Chris, >>> >>> The wording of your question is confusing. You ask about the percentage of DC capacity vs AC power output, then add batteries into the mix. >>> >>> What system topology is the focus of your query? >>> >>> I'll be glad to do what I can to assist. Just need clear direction on the configuration. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> >>> Dan >>> From blake at sunlightandpower.com Wed Aug 28 18:29:43 2019 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 15:29:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow-frame damage In-Reply-To: <92666e9c-d695-90dd-068b-3b35e4b031eb@psln.com> References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <92666e9c-d695-90dd-068b-3b35e4b031eb@psln.com> Message-ID: Snow ripping out module frames (on the roof): [image: IMG_7134.jpg] On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 2:37 PM frenergy wrote: > I've got a customer that is pushing me to lower the bottom edge of a > multipole rack array to make it less visible from his house (which is .6 > miles away!). Its 4 PVs in landscape, I currently have it designed with > the lower edge at 3.5 feet off the ground which is actually questionable > with the 2-3 feet of snow we get here sometimes. Flat ground, 25 degree > pitch. > > If anybody has pics (or words of wisdom) of the bottom edge of > a PV frame being ripped of due to snow not being able to shed properly from *this > **type of installation (or pole mount would help)*, I would appreciate > the help. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_2773182521604737695_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* 510.845.2997 x128 Follow us on Facebook , LinkedIn or our website . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_7134.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 510451 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Aug 28 19:15:33 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 17:15:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow-frame damage In-Reply-To: References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <92666e9c-d695-90dd-068b-3b35e4b031eb@psln.com> Message-ID: <32e917a2-9dc5-3da5-d004-43f5fc95d2bd@solarray.com> Is it possible the snow load broke the glass, then the snow shear/ ice dam tore the bottom edge off?  or just the ice dam pulls the bottom edge off?  Just haven't seen that type of damage here in Colorado/ New Mexico/ Wyoming.  I think its much drier here overall, so perhaps our snow is lighter weight.  Heavy Spring Snows seem to melt off but with climate changes, we might start seeing new types of damage. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/28/19 4:29 PM, Blake Gleason wrote: > Snow ripping out module frames (on the roof): > > IMG_7134.jpg > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 2:37 PM frenergy > wrote: > > I've got a customer that is pushing me to lower the bottom edge of > a multipole rack array to make it less visible from his house > (which is .6 miles away!).  Its 4 PVs in landscape, I currently > have it designed with the lower edge at 3.5 feet off the ground > which is actually questionable with the 2-3 feet of snow we get > here sometimes. Flat ground, 25 degree pitch. > >             If anybody has pics (or words of wisdom) of the bottom > edge of a PV frame being ripped of due to snow not being able to > shed properly from /this //type of installation (or pole mount > would help)/, I would appreciate the help. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > <#m_2773182521604737695_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > *Blake Gleason, PE***| Employee-Owner | > *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence > * > > > 510.845.2997 x128 > > Follow us onFacebook > , > LinkedIn  or our > website . > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_7134.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 510451 bytes Desc: not available URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Wed Aug 28 19:34:02 2019 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 16:34:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow-frame damage In-Reply-To: <32e917a2-9dc5-3da5-d004-43f5fc95d2bd@solarray.com> References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <92666e9c-d695-90dd-068b-3b35e4b031eb@psln.com> <32e917a2-9dc5-3da5-d004-43f5fc95d2bd@solarray.com> Message-ID: In my photo (not the greatest - sorry!), the middle modules have unbroken glass. The one on the left has a severely bent bottom frame section, and the one on the right has a completely failed (torn away) bottom frame section. The other modules in the photo have failed bottom frame sections AND glass/laminate creeping out through the (missing) bottom frame. I believe the glass on those two shattered after it started creeping out of the frame ... On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 4:22 PM Ray wrote: > Is it possible the snow load broke the glass, then the snow shear/ ice dam > tore the bottom edge off? or just the ice dam pulls the bottom edge off? > Just haven't seen that type of damage here in Colorado/ New Mexico/ > Wyoming. I think its much drier here overall, so perhaps our snow is > lighter weight. Heavy Spring Snows seem to melt off but with climate > changes, we might start seeing new types of damage. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 8/28/19 4:29 PM, Blake Gleason wrote: > > Snow ripping out module frames (on the roof): > > [image: IMG_7134.jpg] > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 2:37 PM frenergy wrote: > >> I've got a customer that is pushing me to lower the bottom edge of a >> multipole rack array to make it less visible from his house (which is .6 >> miles away!). Its 4 PVs in landscape, I currently have it designed with >> the lower edge at 3.5 feet off the ground which is actually questionable >> with the 2-3 feet of snow we get here sometimes. Flat ground, 25 degree >> pitch. >> >> If anybody has pics (or words of wisdom) of the bottom edge >> of a PV frame being ripped of due to snow not being able to shed properly >> from *this **type of installation (or pole mount would help)*, I would >> appreciate the help. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net >> >> >> >> Virus-free. >> www.avast.com >> >> <#m_683086207245855623_m_2773182521604737695_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | > > *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence * > > > 510.845.2997 x128 > > Follow us on Facebook > , > LinkedIn or our > website . > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* 510.845.2997 x128 Follow us on Facebook , LinkedIn or our website . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_7134.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 510451 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Wed Aug 28 19:40:35 2019 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 16:40:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow-frame damage In-Reply-To: References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <92666e9c-d695-90dd-068b-3b35e4b031eb@psln.com> <32e917a2-9dc5-3da5-d004-43f5fc95d2bd@solarray.com> Message-ID: See this a lot in our area (Western slope of the Sierra). Snow/ice builds up on the mud sill and eventually rips the frame off. We've actually been writing a clause into our contracts for folks in high snow load areas. Some spots exceed 400psf. It's crazy. On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 4:34 PM Blake Gleason wrote: > In my photo (not the greatest - sorry!), the middle modules have unbroken > glass. The one on the left has a severely bent bottom frame section, and > the one on the right has a completely failed (torn away) bottom frame > section. The other modules in the photo have failed bottom frame sections > AND glass/laminate creeping out through the (missing) bottom frame. I > believe the glass on those two shattered after it started creeping out of > the frame ... > > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 4:22 PM Ray wrote: > >> Is it possible the snow load broke the glass, then the snow shear/ ice >> dam tore the bottom edge off? or just the ice dam pulls the bottom edge >> off? Just haven't seen that type of damage here in Colorado/ New Mexico/ >> Wyoming. I think its much drier here overall, so perhaps our snow is >> lighter weight. Heavy Spring Snows seem to melt off but with climate >> changes, we might start seeing new types of damage. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 8/28/19 4:29 PM, Blake Gleason wrote: >> >> Snow ripping out module frames (on the roof): >> >> [image: IMG_7134.jpg] >> >> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 2:37 PM frenergy wrote: >> >>> I've got a customer that is pushing me to lower the bottom edge of a >>> multipole rack array to make it less visible from his house (which is .6 >>> miles away!). Its 4 PVs in landscape, I currently have it designed with >>> the lower edge at 3.5 feet off the ground which is actually questionable >>> with the 2-3 feet of snow we get here sometimes. Flat ground, 25 degree >>> pitch. >>> >>> If anybody has pics (or words of wisdom) of the bottom edge >>> of a PV frame being ripped of due to snow not being able to shed properly >>> from *this **type of installation (or pole mount would help)*, I would >>> appreciate the help. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> >>> Virus-free. >>> www.avast.com >>> >>> <#m_4740033783117104510_m_683086207245855623_m_2773182521604737695_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | >> >> *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence * >> >> >> 510.845.2997 x128 >> >> Follow us on Facebook >> , >> LinkedIn or our >> website . >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | > > > *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* > > > 510.845.2997 x128 > > Follow us on Facebook > , > LinkedIn or our > website . > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_7134.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 510451 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Aug 28 20:45:33 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 17:45:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow-frame damage In-Reply-To: References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <92666e9c-d695-90dd-068b-3b35e4b031eb@psln.com> <32e917a2-9dc5-3da5-d004-43f5fc95d2bd@solarray.com> Message-ID: Friends: Is this an application where a frameless module might be a good solution? We used the Lumos panels in one installation , not to avoid snow damage but to avoid marine-environment corrosion. Without a frame, the snow may have nowhere to grip on the panels and cause damage. These panels cost a premium but do offer some unique advantages. By the way, the modules have no aluminum components, which is why they are corrosion resistant (except for little aluminum ferrules, which we will be replacing). Sincerely, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Lorenzo Ortiz *Sent:* Wednesday, August 28, 2019 4:41 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Snow-frame damage See this a lot in our area (Western slope of the Sierra). Snow/ice builds up on the mud sill and eventually rips the frame off. We've actually been writing a clause into our contracts for folks in high snow load areas. Some spots exceed 400psf. It's crazy. On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 4:34 PM Blake Gleason wrote: In my photo (not the greatest - sorry!), the middle modules have unbroken glass. The one on the left has a severely bent bottom frame section, and the one on the right has a completely failed (torn away) bottom frame section. The other modules in the photo have failed bottom frame sections AND glass/laminate creeping out through the (missing) bottom frame. I believe the glass on those two shattered after it started creeping out of the frame ... On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 4:22 PM Ray wrote: Is it possible the snow load broke the glass, then the snow shear/ ice dam tore the bottom edge off? or just the ice dam pulls the bottom edge off? Just haven't seen that type of damage here in Colorado/ New Mexico/ Wyoming. I think its much drier here overall, so perhaps our snow is lighter weight. Heavy Spring Snows seem to melt off but with climate changes, we might start seeing new types of damage. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/28/19 4:29 PM, Blake Gleason wrote: Snow ripping out module frames (on the roof): [image: IMG_7134.jpg] On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 2:37 PM frenergy wrote: I've got a customer that is pushing me to lower the bottom edge of a multipole rack array to make it less visible from his house (which is .6 miles away!). Its 4 PVs in landscape, I currently have it designed with the lower edge at 3.5 feet off the ground which is actually questionable with the 2-3 feet of snow we get here sometimes. Flat ground, 25 degree pitch. If anybody has pics (or words of wisdom) of the bottom edge of a PV frame being ripped of due to snow not being able to shed properly from *this type of installation (or pole mount would help)*, I would appreciate the help. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net Virus-free. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* 510.845.2997 x128 Follow us on Facebook , LinkedIn or our website . _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- *Blake Gleason, PE* | Employee-Owner | *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* 510.845.2997 x128 Follow us on Facebook , LinkedIn or our website . _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- *Loren Ortiz * *Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid* loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: **530-274-3671 ext: 311 **Fax: **530-274-7518* *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 50249 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 28 20:55:46 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 17:55:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie w/o battery no sell back Message-ID: <11843468-41FC-49E3-A254-CBF393A79FFE@gmail.com> are there any products out there that can do a grid tie w/o batteries but no sell back to the grid? Thx Jay From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Aug 28 21:28:28 2019 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 21:28:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie w/o battery no sell back In-Reply-To: References: <11843468-41FC-49E3-A254-CBF393A79FFE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, My understanding is that the Outback SkyBox is capable of supplying power to AC loads (what they call “micro grid”) without needing grid input or a DC storage system. Kind of like the SMA SunnyBoy secure power supply, only on a larger scale. However, depending on the electrical demands of the loads being energized, there is potential that solar PV production would not supply necessary power in the daytime...Also, the system would essentially de-energize during low irradiance/night times. Best, Chris On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 9:19 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Jay, > > My understanding is that the Outback SkyBox is capable of supplying power > to AC loads (what they call “micro grid”) without needing grid input or a > DC storage system. Kind of like the SMA SunnyBoy secure power supply, only > on a large scale. However, depending on the electrical demands of the loads > being energized, there is potential that solar PV production would not > supply necessary power in the daytime...Also, the system would essentially > de-energize during low irradiance/night times. > > Best, > > Chris > > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 9:03 PM Jay wrote: > >> are there any products out there that can do a grid tie w/o batteries but >> no sell back to the >> grid? >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > > *Chris Sparadeo* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 042919-015652* > > Catamount Solar, LLC > > 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 > > C_(802) 369-4458 > > O_(802) 728-3600 > > www.CatamountSolar.com > > > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Wed Aug 28 21:50:53 2019 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 18:50:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie w/o battery no sell back In-Reply-To: References: <11843468-41FC-49E3-A254-CBF393A79FFE@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think you do need either a battery or AC source to start up the inverter in the morning. It's also possible that if it is overloaded and shuts down it might not restart. It will not start from PV alone. Brad On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 6:28 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Jay, > > My understanding is that the Outback SkyBox is capable of supplying power > to AC loads (what they call “micro grid”) without needing grid input or a > DC storage system. Kind of like the SMA SunnyBoy secure power supply, only > on a larger scale. However, depending on the electrical demands of the > loads being energized, there is potential that solar PV production would > not supply necessary power in the daytime...Also, the system would > essentially de-energize during low irradiance/night times. > > Best, > > Chris > > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 9:19 PM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > >> Jay, >> >> My understanding is that the Outback SkyBox is capable of supplying power >> to AC loads (what they call “micro grid”) without needing grid input or a >> DC storage system. Kind of like the SMA SunnyBoy secure power supply, only >> on a large scale. However, depending on the electrical demands of the loads >> being energized, there is potential that solar PV production would not >> supply necessary power in the daytime...Also, the system would essentially >> de-energize during low irradiance/night times. >> >> Best, >> >> Chris >> >> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 9:03 PM Jay wrote: >> >>> are there any products out there that can do a grid tie w/o batteries >>> but no sell back to the >>> grid? >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >> >> *Chris Sparadeo* >> >> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 042919-015652* >> >> Catamount Solar, LLC >> >> 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 >> >> C_(802) 369-4458 >> >> O_(802) 728-3600 >> >> www.CatamountSolar.com >> >> >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Wed Aug 28 22:14:14 2019 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland - RES) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 16:14:14 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie w/o battery no sell back In-Reply-To: <11843468-41FC-49E3-A254-CBF393A79FFE@gmail.com> References: <11843468-41FC-49E3-A254-CBF393A79FFE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Enphase, Solar-Edge, Pika, and I believe now SMA. You can check HECO advanced inverters list under CSS program which lists all compliant inverters. > Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. > Roland Shackelford NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. Mobile: 808-938-9239 www.renewablenergy.com > On Aug 28, 2019, at 2:55 PM, Jay wrote: > > are there any products out there that can do a grid tie w/o batteries but no sell back to the > grid? > > Thx > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 28 23:08:26 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 20:08:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie w/o battery no sell back In-Reply-To: References: <11843468-41FC-49E3-A254-CBF393A79FFE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, So it doesn’t sound like what I’m after. I’m looking for a GT WO batteries hooked to the main panel just like normal but having communication from the main ( could be reading smart meter or using sensors) to allow power to be consumed in the house but no export to the grid by reducing power from the GT inverter. I know it’s done in other countries, India for example. No sub panel, no dedicated loads panel, no back up, just a normal GT system for self consumption with of course the grid suppling what ever the GT inverter isn’t. Guessing from comments so far I’m SOL. Jay > On Aug 28, 2019, at 6:28 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: > > Jay, > > My understanding is that the Outback SkyBox is capable of supplying power to AC loads (what they call “micro grid”) without needing grid input or a DC storage system. Kind of like the SMA SunnyBoy secure power supply, only on a larger scale. However, depending on the electrical demands of the loads being energized, there is potential that solar PV production would not supply necessary power in the daytime...Also, the system would essentially de-energize during low irradiance/night times. > > Best, > > Chris > >> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 9:19 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: >> Jay, >> >> My understanding is that the Outback SkyBox is capable of supplying power to AC loads (what they call “micro grid”) without needing grid input or a DC storage system. Kind of like the SMA SunnyBoy secure power supply, only on a large scale. However, depending on the electrical demands of the loads being energized, there is potential that solar PV production would not supply necessary power in the daytime...Also, the system would essentially de-energize during low irradiance/night times. >> >> Best, >> >> Chris >> >>> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 9:03 PM Jay wrote: >>> are there any products out there that can do a grid tie w/o batteries but no sell back to the >>> grid? >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 042919-015652 >> Catamount Solar, LLC >> 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 >> C_(802) 369-4458 >> O_(802) 728-3600 >> www.CatamountSolar.com >> >> > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Aug 28 21:11:51 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 15:11:51 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie w/o battery no sell back In-Reply-To: <11843468-41FC-49E3-A254-CBF393A79FFE@gmail.com> References: <11843468-41FC-49E3-A254-CBF393A79FFE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Both SolarEdge and the Enphase IQ7 should be capable of doing zero export with or without storage. marco On Wednesday, August 28, 2019, Jay wrote: > are there any products out there that can do a grid tie w/o batteries but > no sell back to the > grid? > > Thx > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Aug 28 23:58:54 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 17:58:54 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie w/o battery no sell back In-Reply-To: References: <11843468-41FC-49E3-A254-CBF393A79FFE@gmail.com> Message-ID: The SolarEdge HD Wave line with their accompanying electricity meter (which uses CTs to make sure that export does not take place upstream of the CTs) should work fine for what you suggest. marco On Wednesday, August 28, 2019, Jay wrote: > Hi Chris, > > So it doesn’t sound like what I’m after. > > I’m looking for a GT WO batteries hooked to the main panel just like > normal but having communication from the main ( could be reading smart > meter or using sensors) to allow power to be consumed in the house but no > export to the grid by reducing power from the GT inverter. > I know it’s done in other countries, India for example. > > No sub panel, no dedicated loads panel, no back up, just a normal GT > system for self consumption with of course the grid suppling what ever the > GT inverter isn’t. > > Guessing from comments so far I’m SOL. > > Jay > > On Aug 28, 2019, at 6:28 PM, Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > > Jay, > > My understanding is that the Outback SkyBox is capable of supplying power > to AC loads (what they call “micro grid”) without needing grid input or a > DC storage system. Kind of like the SMA SunnyBoy secure power supply, only > on a larger scale. However, depending on the electrical demands of the > loads being energized, there is potential that solar PV production would > not supply necessary power in the daytime...Also, the system would > essentially de-energize during low irradiance/night times. > > Best, > > Chris > > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 9:19 PM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > >> Jay, >> >> My understanding is that the Outback SkyBox is capable of supplying power >> to AC loads (what they call “micro grid”) without needing grid input or a >> DC storage system. Kind of like the SMA SunnyBoy secure power supply, only >> on a large scale. However, depending on the electrical demands of the loads >> being energized, there is potential that solar PV production would not >> supply necessary power in the daytime...Also, the system would essentially >> de-energize during low irradiance/night times. >> >> Best, >> >> Chris >> >> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 9:03 PM Jay wrote: >> >>> are there any products out there that can do a grid tie w/o batteries >>> but no sell back to the >>> grid? >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >> >> *Chris Sparadeo* >> >> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 042919-015652* >> >> Catamount Solar, LLC >> >> 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 >> >> >> C_(802) 369-4458 >> >> O_(802) 728-3600 >> >> www.CatamountSolar.com >> >> >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Aug 28 23:57:01 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 20:57:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie w/o battery no sell back In-Reply-To: References: <11843468-41FC-49E3-A254-CBF393A79FFE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0e33df65f42ad803dde3b5cfeb60f955@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I had looked into this concept a while back. How does this relate to self-consumption? I have never been totally clear on that term. The research I did seemed to indicate that in order to ensure absolutely no feed back into the grid where it was proscribed, the systems drew 1 amp continuously from the grid. Is this still the case? This might be battery-based systems. Inquiring minds want to know…. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 Quote of the month: “As they age, batteries transition from energy storage devices to energy consuming devices.“ W. Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf *Sent:* Wednesday, August 28, 2019 6:12 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie w/o battery no sell back Both SolarEdge and the Enphase IQ7 should be capable of doing zero export with or without storage. marco On Wednesday, August 28, 2019, Jay wrote: are there any products out there that can do a grid tie w/o batteries but no sell back to the grid? Thx Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Aug 29 09:16:06 2019 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 09:16:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie w/o battery no sell back In-Reply-To: <11843468-41FC-49E3-A254-CBF393A79FFE@gmail.com> References: <11843468-41FC-49E3-A254-CBF393A79FFE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Outback Radian or Pika. On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 9:41 PM Jay wrote: > are there any products out there that can do a grid tie w/o batteries but > no sell back to the > grid? > > Thx > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hathasolar at yahoo.com Thu Aug 29 14:07:18 2019 From: hathasolar at yahoo.com (wes kennedy) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 18:07:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie w/o battery no sell back In-Reply-To: References: <11843468-41FC-49E3-A254-CBF393A79FFE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1067997267.330275.1567102038370@mail.yahoo.com> HI Jay, The Fronius line, primo or symo have that capability. You need the smart meter to measure current flow at point of interconnection. The tricky bit is what happens when a big load suddenly turns off. There will always be a small flow of energy across the meter for a second or two while the system reacts and curtails the pv array. HECO was fine with this limited, momentary export of energy.These residential systems typically have very low performance factors, as the PV peaks around noon, when a typical load profile peaks morning and evening. So you end up curtailing most of your pv production. In a commercial application though, zero export can work really well, if you size PV to midday loads.  -Wes Kennedy On Wednesday, August 28, 2019, 09:51:40 PM MDT, Jay wrote: Hi Chris,  So it doesn’t sound like what I’m after.  I’m looking for a GT WO batteries  hooked to the main panel just like normal but having communication from the main ( could be reading smart meter or using sensors) to allow power to be consumed in the house but no export to the grid by reducing power from the GT inverter. I know it’s done in other countries, India for example.  No sub panel, no dedicated loads panel, no back up, just a normal GT system for self consumption with of course the grid suppling what ever the GT inverter isn’t.  Guessing from comments so far I’m SOL.  Jay On Aug 28, 2019, at 6:28 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: Jay, My understanding is that the Outback SkyBox is capable of supplying power to AC loads (what they call “micro grid”) without needing grid input or a DC storage system. Kind of like the SMA SunnyBoy secure power supply, only on a larger scale. However, depending on the electrical demands of the loads being energized, there is potential that solar PV production would not supply necessary power in the daytime...Also, the system would essentially de-energize during low irradiance/night times.  Best, Chris  On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 9:19 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: Jay, My understanding is that the Outback SkyBox is capable of supplying power to AC loads (what they call “micro grid”) without needing grid input or a DC storage system. Kind of like the SMA SunnyBoy secure power supply, only on a large scale. However, depending on the electrical demands of the loads being energized, there is potential that solar PV production would not supply necessary power in the daytime...Also, the system would essentially de-energize during low irradiance/night times.  Best, Chris  On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 9:03 PM Jay wrote: are there any products out there that can do a grid tie w/o batteries but no sell back to the grid? Thx Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Sparadeo NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 042919-015652 Catamount Solar, LLC 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 C_(802) 369-4458 O_(802) 728-3600 www.CatamountSolar.com -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 30 13:58:23 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 10:58:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie w/o battery no sell back In-Reply-To: <1067997267.330275.1567102038370@mail.yahoo.com> References: <11843468-41FC-49E3-A254-CBF393A79FFE@gmail.com> <1067997267.330275.1567102038370@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8EAC28F2-5011-4A2C-AE10-2504B2A17C35@gmail.com> Hi Wes and everyone else. I’ve heard from Enphase and Fronius offsite and indeed its quite possible to do “self consumption”. Both Enphase and Fronius need some additional hardware but thats to be expected and pretty minor really. SMA and SE both are supposed to do it but I didn’t pursue exactly what they need to do it, but I’m presuming they also need additional hardware to read the main. At this point nobody is reading the smart meter, but that would be the easiest and most accurate. Maybe when sunspec comes out it will be able to interface? This whole question started from an old client up in SE alaska, who’s utility no longer accepts NEM. He’s got a lot of sun during the summer and not much in the winter as well as lots of clouds, which to me means that a battery system isn’t going to do much. And given how inexpensive GTWOB is, vs adding batteries its an interesting option. In his case I think the self consumption option is a good one. In other areas with different price structures it might be totally different. And I’m sure will have an impact as to what size system might be the most economic. The Fronius has a relay option that will turn loads on/off based on curtailment. As to load peaks, those of us off grid folks understand to do it when the sun shines and to me I think we will see more and more smart day time load use as we see more and more renewables come on line during the daytime. Thanks again everyone, jay > On Aug 29, 2019, at 11:07 AM, wes kennedy wrote: > > HI Jay, > > The Fronius line, primo or symo have that capability. You need the smart meter to measure current flow at point of interconnection. > The tricky bit is what happens when a big load suddenly turns off. There will always be a small flow of energy across the meter for a second or two while the system reacts and curtails the pv array. > HECO was fine with this limited, momentary export of energy. > These residential systems typically have very low performance factors, as the PV peaks around noon, when a typical load profile peaks morning and evening. So you end up curtailing most of your pv production. > In a commercial application though, zero export can work really well, if you size PV to midday loads. > > -Wes Kennedy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Aug 30 16:32:27 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 13:32:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie w/o battery no sell back In-Reply-To: <11843468-41FC-49E3-A254-CBF393A79FFE@gmail.com> References: <11843468-41FC-49E3-A254-CBF393A79FFE@gmail.com> Message-ID: SMA Has the optional Power during a grid failure Jerr On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 8:11 AM Jay wrote: > are there any products out there that can do a grid tie w/o batteries but > no sell back to the > grid? > > Thx > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Aug 30 17:23:15 2019 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 17:23:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid tie w/o battery no sell back In-Reply-To: References: <11843468-41FC-49E3-A254-CBF393A79FFE@gmail.com> Message-ID: I misunderstood the question the two options I listed are battery systems. What I should have suggested as a solution was the Enphase microinverter system with the Zero Export profile and Production CTs on the service to the panel. That will do Zero Export so that all the power produced is self consumed, there is virtually no exported power to the grid. On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 9:16 AM Chris Mason wrote: > Outback Radian or Pika. > > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 9:41 PM Jay wrote: > >> are there any products out there that can do a grid tie w/o batteries but >> no sell back to the >> grid? >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sun Sep 1 13:42:14 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 07:42:14 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults Message-ID: Aloha all, My company has really been struggling with the SMA US-40 line of inverters and incredibly disruptive to positive customer experiences bogus arc faults. We were told by our SMA friends that a firmware update/fix was forthcoming in mid-August and we’ve heard nor received nothing last month. Does anyone know anything as to where they’re at on this? Really frustrated.... marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun Sep 1 20:02:18 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 17:02:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34ce8a66-29dc-1c81-4f3a-fff0543a81e0@psln.com> Hey Marco,             I hear you, we have installed many SMA-40's and we're not at the same point as you may be but we've definitely had a fair number of arc fault shut-downs which take a site visit to rectify.  One location had been experiencing lightening over a year and a half which seemed to be triggering the 8206 code.             I had to go back three times to one such install. After that I went back with my array map (before an install I make a laminated map of the strings with home-run locations) and started inspecting home-run connections.  I was lucky and found the culprit with my first try.  Somehow I hadn't pushed the wire end which I had crimped on the tip to far enough into the plastic connector....too cold maybe? lazy? distracted?...not sure but there it was, my bad.  I took that connector back to the shop and sure enough it would show intermittent connection with an ohm meter, perfect for an arc fault.             This doesn't answer your question about the fix but thought I'd apply a little egg to my face in the hopes of saving others the same. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 9/1/2019 10:42 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Aloha all, > > My company has really been struggling with the SMA US-40 line of > inverters and incredibly disruptive to positive customer experiences > bogus arc faults. > > We were told by our SMA friends that a firmware update/fix was > forthcoming in mid-August and we’ve heard nor received nothing last month. > > Does anyone know anything as to where they’re at on this? > > Really frustrated.... > > marco > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Sep 2 10:12:19 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 10:12:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9bf0d442481c01b7d9e390a1e9ba1dcd22c9ece1@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> At least with the TL-22s, the AFCI function can be turned off. You need a_ Web connect speed wire module_. .I don't know if this same protocol will work for the TL 40s or not.  Metal roofing can apparently be affected by radio waves and by other factors that create a disturbance that can trigger the AFCI.The TL 40 was supposed to overcome this problem. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To:"RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent:Sun, 1 Sep 2019 07:42:14 -1000 Subject:[RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults Aloha all, My company has really been struggling with the SMA US-40 line of inverters and incredibly disruptive to positive customer experiences bogus arc faults.  We were told by our SMA friends that a firmware update/fix was forthcoming in mid-August and we’ve heard nor received nothing last month. Does anyone know anything as to where they’re at on this? Really frustrated.... marco  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Sep 2 11:19:03 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 08:19:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults In-Reply-To: <9bf0d442481c01b7d9e390a1e9ba1dcd22c9ece1@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <9bf0d442481c01b7d9e390a1e9ba1dcd22c9ece1@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <2eea28ef-67f5-f66c-a92f-5bf9bfe8763c@psln.com> Interestingly, the problems I've had with the SMA -40 AFCI faults have been on Comp roofs.  When I've gone "inside" a -40 with my laptop, I'm pretty sure I've seen where you can disable it? Bill On 9/2/2019 7:12 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > At least with the TL-22s, the AFCI function can be turned off. You > need a/Web connect speed wire module/. .I don't know if this same > protocol will work for the TL 40s or not. > > Metal roofing can apparently be affected by radio waves and by other > factors that create a disturbance that can trigger the AFCI.The TL 40 > was supposed to overcome this problem. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > "RE-wrenches" > > To: > "RE-wrenches" > Cc: > > Sent: > Sun, 1 Sep 2019 07:42:14 -1000 > Subject: > [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults > > > Aloha all, > > My company has really been struggling with the SMA US-40 line of > inverters and incredibly disruptive to positive customer > experiences bogus arc faults. > > We were told by our SMA friends that a firmware update/fix was > forthcoming in mid-August and we’ve heard nor received nothing > last month. > > Does anyone know anything as to where they’re at on this? > > Really frustrated.... > > marco > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Sep 2 12:03:24 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 09:03:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults In-Reply-To: <2eea28ef-67f5-f66c-a92f-5bf9bfe8763c@psln.com> References: <9bf0d442481c01b7d9e390a1e9ba1dcd22c9ece1@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2eea28ef-67f5-f66c-a92f-5bf9bfe8763c@psln.com> Message-ID: Wrenches I have had chiller pump contactor along with wells, shop air compressors all create enough of an arc to trigger the inverters. ABB inverters only pick up off the DC but even there l had arc welders trip the inverters. Jerry On Mon, Sep 2, 2019, 8:14 AM frenergy wrote: > Interestingly, the problems I've had with the SMA -40 AFCI faults have > been on Comp roofs. When I've gone "inside" a -40 with my laptop, I'm > pretty sure I've seen where you can disable it? > > Bill > On 9/2/2019 7:12 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > At least with the TL-22s, the AFCI function can be turned off. You need a* > Web connect speed wire module*. .I don't know if this same protocol will > work for the TL 40s or not. > > Metal roofing can apparently be affected by radio waves and by other > factors that create a disturbance that can trigger the AFCI.The TL 40 was > supposed to overcome this problem. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > "RE-wrenches" > > > To: > "RE-wrenches" > > Cc: > > Sent: > Sun, 1 Sep 2019 07:42:14 -1000 > Subject: > [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults > > > Aloha all, > > My company has really been struggling with the SMA US-40 line of inverters > and incredibly disruptive to positive customer experiences bogus arc > faults. > > We were told by our SMA friends that a firmware update/fix was forthcoming > in mid-August and we’ve heard nor received nothing last month. > > Does anyone know anything as to where they’re at on this? > > Really frustrated.... > > marco > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-8586691768230059784_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue Sep 3 09:39:10 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 09:39:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults In-Reply-To: References: <9bf0d442481c01b7d9e390a1e9ba1dcd22c9ece1@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2eea28ef-67f5-f66c-a92f-5bf9bfe8763c@psln.com> Message-ID: Hi All, I have noted that the phantom arc faults occur with high power modules such as Sunpower. I have also heard of many issues with Tigo optimizers. One potential easy fix is to disable the Optitrac Global Peak. This seems to work to get rid of the arc faults in both the -22 and the -40 inverters. The only downside to that will be reduced power output in partial shading conditions. I wouldn't hold my breath for SMA's firmware fix. I was told last year it would be out by this February (7 months ago) and that they would automatically push the firmware fix to all their inverters... Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 12:03 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > I have had chiller pump contactor along with wells, shop air compressors > all create enough of an arc to trigger the inverters. ABB inverters only > pick up off the DC but even there l had arc welders trip the inverters. > Jerry > > On Mon, Sep 2, 2019, 8:14 AM frenergy wrote: > >> Interestingly, the problems I've had with the SMA -40 AFCI faults have >> been on Comp roofs. When I've gone "inside" a -40 with my laptop, I'm >> pretty sure I've seen where you can disable it? >> >> Bill >> On 9/2/2019 7:12 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> >> At least with the TL-22s, the AFCI function can be turned off. You need a* >> Web connect speed wire module*. .I don't know if this same protocol will >> work for the TL 40s or not. >> >> Metal roofing can apparently be affected by radio waves and by other >> factors that create a disturbance that can trigger the AFCI.The TL 40 was >> supposed to overcome this problem. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> "RE-wrenches" >> >> >> To: >> "RE-wrenches" >> >> Cc: >> >> Sent: >> Sun, 1 Sep 2019 07:42:14 -1000 >> Subject: >> [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults >> >> >> Aloha all, >> >> My company has really been struggling with the SMA US-40 line of >> inverters and incredibly disruptive to positive customer experiences bogus >> arc faults. >> >> We were told by our SMA friends that a firmware update/fix was >> forthcoming in mid-August and we’ve heard nor received nothing last month. >> >> Does anyone know anything as to where they’re at on this? >> >> Really frustrated.... >> >> marco >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net >> >> >> >> Virus-free. >> www.avast.com >> >> <#m_5811634611145324122_m_-8586691768230059784_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Sep 3 09:43:14 2019 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 09:43:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults In-Reply-To: References: <9bf0d442481c01b7d9e390a1e9ba1dcd22c9ece1@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2eea28ef-67f5-f66c-a92f-5bf9bfe8763c@psln.com> Message-ID: Got called in by another peer to debug that infamous SMA error 8206 on a 2 year old 5kw unit. The array is roof mounted on composite shingles with 14 SunPower 345w modules. First time ever seeing this error on this project. I'd love to hear from others as to what they've found or better yet hear from an SMA rep as to what they suggest. Not a whole lot of detail in the SMA users manual. Thanks, Christopher Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 12:03 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > I have had chiller pump contactor along with wells, shop air compressors > all create enough of an arc to trigger the inverters. ABB inverters only > pick up off the DC but even there l had arc welders trip the inverters. > Jerry > > On Mon, Sep 2, 2019, 8:14 AM frenergy wrote: > >> Interestingly, the problems I've had with the SMA -40 AFCI faults have >> been on Comp roofs. When I've gone "inside" a -40 with my laptop, I'm >> pretty sure I've seen where you can disable it? >> >> Bill >> On 9/2/2019 7:12 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> >> At least with the TL-22s, the AFCI function can be turned off. You need a* >> Web connect speed wire module*. .I don't know if this same protocol will >> work for the TL 40s or not. >> >> Metal roofing can apparently be affected by radio waves and by other >> factors that create a disturbance that can trigger the AFCI.The TL 40 was >> supposed to overcome this problem. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> "RE-wrenches" >> >> >> To: >> "RE-wrenches" >> >> Cc: >> >> Sent: >> Sun, 1 Sep 2019 07:42:14 -1000 >> Subject: >> [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults >> >> >> Aloha all, >> >> My company has really been struggling with the SMA US-40 line of >> inverters and incredibly disruptive to positive customer experiences bogus >> arc faults. >> >> We were told by our SMA friends that a firmware update/fix was >> forthcoming in mid-August and we’ve heard nor received nothing last month. >> >> Does anyone know anything as to where they’re at on this? >> >> Really frustrated.... >> >> marco >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net >> >> >> >> Virus-free. >> www.avast.com >> >> <#m_7634541537442057613_m_-8586691768230059784_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue Sep 3 09:52:19 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 09:52:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults In-Reply-To: References: <9bf0d442481c01b7d9e390a1e9ba1dcd22c9ece1@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2eea28ef-67f5-f66c-a92f-5bf9bfe8763c@psln.com> Message-ID: Chris, Sunpower has taken some responsibility on some of our older Sunpower systems that are arc faulting. We tell them that a system is arc faulting, and then they insist on sending up a 3rd party contractor to inspect the system and potentially install what they call "Tigo Diodes". I am still not exactly sure what that is. It also seems to take them months to send anyone to upstate NY, as we have a bunch of customers that have been waiting months for the 3rd party contractor to come take a look. You likely could only follow this route though if the system was installed by a Sunpower dealer and you are a Sunpower dealer yourself. If the original system was from a Sunpower dealer, you can also have the customer call Sunpower directly. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 9:43 AM Chris Schaefer wrote: > Got called in by another peer to debug that infamous SMA error 8206 on a 2 > year old 5kw unit. The array is roof mounted on composite shingles with 14 > SunPower 345w modules. First time ever seeing this error on this project. > I'd love to hear from others as to what they've found or better yet hear > from an SMA rep as to what they suggest. Not a whole lot of detail in the > SMA users manual. > > Thanks, > Christopher > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 12:03 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Wrenches >> I have had chiller pump contactor along with wells, shop air compressors >> all create enough of an arc to trigger the inverters. ABB inverters only >> pick up off the DC but even there l had arc welders trip the inverters. >> Jerry >> >> On Mon, Sep 2, 2019, 8:14 AM frenergy wrote: >> >>> Interestingly, the problems I've had with the SMA -40 AFCI faults have >>> been on Comp roofs. When I've gone "inside" a -40 with my laptop, I'm >>> pretty sure I've seen where you can disable it? >>> >>> Bill >>> On 9/2/2019 7:12 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >>> >>> At least with the TL-22s, the AFCI function can be turned off. You need a* >>> Web connect speed wire module*. .I don't know if this same protocol >>> will work for the TL 40s or not. >>> >>> Metal roofing can apparently be affected by radio waves and by other >>> factors that create a disturbance that can trigger the AFCI.The TL 40 was >>> supposed to overcome this problem. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> "RE-wrenches" >>> >>> >>> To: >>> "RE-wrenches" >>> >>> Cc: >>> >>> Sent: >>> Sun, 1 Sep 2019 07:42:14 -1000 >>> Subject: >>> [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults >>> >>> >>> Aloha all, >>> >>> My company has really been struggling with the SMA US-40 line of >>> inverters and incredibly disruptive to positive customer experiences bogus >>> arc faults. >>> >>> We were told by our SMA friends that a firmware update/fix was >>> forthcoming in mid-August and we’ve heard nor received nothing last month. >>> >>> Does anyone know anything as to where they’re at on this? >>> >>> Really frustrated.... >>> >>> marco >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> >>> Virus-free. >>> www.avast.com >>> >>> <#m_-3012406759072413389_m_7634541537442057613_m_-8586691768230059784_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Sep 3 12:37:15 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2019 09:37:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults In-Reply-To: References: <9bf0d442481c01b7d9e390a1e9ba1dcd22c9ece1@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2eea28ef-67f5-f66c-a92f-5bf9bfe8763c@psln.com> Message-ID: <01302bce1a016e0a41f42fb9077caa5e@127.0.0.1> Same up here in the southern sierra. I get calls from ABB and a few from SMA to look at systems that people far away installed and as a local 3rd party it can save some money. Whatever they quote me I triple the price. 1/3 up front and the rest when it is done. ABB is really slow with payment. I think they sold their inverter business? Sunpower is a great panel but they have had some bad runs. Probably why there are so many new/used panels on the secondary market. They are great for Offgrid ground arrays and no AFD. On Tue, 3 Sep 2019 09:52:19 -0400, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Chris, Sunpower has taken some responsibility on some of our older Sunpower systems that are arc faulting. We tell them that a system is arc faulting, and then they insist on sending up a 3rd party contractor to inspect the system and potentially install what they call "Tigo Diodes". I am still not exactly sure what that is. It also seems to take them months to send anyone to upstate NY, as we have a bunch of customers that have been waiting months for the 3rd party contractor to come take a look. You likely could only follow this route though if the system was installed by a Sunpower dealer and you are a Sunpower dealer yourself. If the original system was from a Sunpower dealer, you can also have the customer call Sunpower directly. Cheers, Dave DAVE TEDEYAN, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com [1] Solar * Sustainability * Energy * Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 9:43 AM Chris Schaefer wrote: Got called in by another peer to debug that infamous SMA error 8206 on a 2 year old 5kw unit. The array is roof mounted on composite shingles with 14 SunPower 345w modules. First time ever seeing this error on this project. I'd love to hear from others as to what they've found or better yet hear from an SMA rep as to what they suggest. Not a whole lot of detail in the SMA users manual. Thanks, Christopher Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [4] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [5]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 12:03 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches I have had chiller pump contactor along with wells, shop air compressors all create enough of an arc to trigger the inverters. ABB inverters only pick up off the DC but even there l had arc welders trip the inverters. Jerry On Mon, Sep 2, 2019, 8:14 AM frenergy wrote: Interestingly, the problems I've had with the SMA -40 AFCI faults have been on Comp roofs. When I've gone "inside" a -40 with my laptop, I'm pretty sure I've seen where you can disable it? Bill On 9/2/2019 7:12 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [8] wrote: At least with the TL-22s, the AFCI function can be turned off. You need a_ Web connect speed wire module_. .I don't know if this same protocol will work for the TL 40s or not. Metal roofing can apparently be affected by radio waves and by other factors that create a disturbance that can trigger the AFCI.The TL 40 was supposed to overcome this problem. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" [9] To: "RE-wrenches" [10] Cc: Sent: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 07:42:14 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults Aloha all, My company has really been struggling with the SMA US-40 line of inverters and incredibly disruptive to positive customer experiences bogus arc faults. We were told by our SMA friends that a firmware update/fix was forthcoming in mid-August and we've heard nor received nothing last month. Does anyone know anything as to where they're at on this? Really frustrated.... marco _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] List rules height: 29px;" src="https://webmail.sti.net/tuxedo/?_task=mail&_action=display-attachment&_file=rcmfile11567528004025870100" alt="" width="46" height="29" /> [17] Virus-free. www.avast.com [18] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [19] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [21] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [22] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [23] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [24] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [25] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [26] List rules color: #1f497d;">Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [30] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [31]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [32] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [33] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [34] List rules ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [37] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [38] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://www.taitem.com [2] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [3] http://www.solarandwindfx.com/ [4] http://www.solarandwindfx.com/ [5] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [6] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [7] mailto:frenergy at psln.com [8] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [9] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] http://www.frenergy.net [17] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon [18] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link [19] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [20] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [22] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [23] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [24] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [25] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [26] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [27] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [28] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [29] http://webmail.sti.net/http:www.solarandwindfx.com [30] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [31] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [32] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [33] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [34] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [35] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [36] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [37] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [38] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 3 12:41:06 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 09:41:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Connector compatibility Message-ID: <2BE6FFFF-44BA-4314-845C-BEA5720F8193@gmail.com> Here is a good article on connectors and maybe relevant to the arc fault https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/09/03/not-making-the-connection-fires-electrical-balance-of-systems/ Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Sep 3 14:44:57 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 11:44:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3 stack Radian Problem Message-ID: Friends: We have a 3 stack Radian system installed about two years ago. The customer had some health issues and is just moving into the new home. Over the weekend the system started strobing the AC output. One or more of the inverters was clicking and buzzing. Tech support diagnosed a faulty setting for power save. We adjusted as recommended but problem persists. On site, I found the clicking from transfer relays and a pop-buzz from one or both power units on inverter 3. When I unplugged the data cable to that inverter the noises stopped. The inverter data cables are all new about 2 months to resolve the dreaded firmware mismatch problem. They are not shielded. I tried a new factory shielded cable on 3 but problem persists. I have been holding all morning for tech support. BTW pressing 2 for call-back does not work. Any help would be appreciated. I am stuck on site until this is resolved.... William Miller From william at millersolar.com Tue Sep 3 20:27:00 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 17:27:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3 stack Radian Problem Message-ID: <63a8c044d08f97b68bc2b46714d42863@mail.gmail.com> Friends: The message below never got posted to the Wrenches list. I don't know how the list works but sometimes there is a quite a delay. I am still in need of advice. The problem went away mysteriously and then came back. I can make the problem go away by unplugging the data cable to inverter 3, but this can't be a permanent fix. Outback has not a clue on what is going on... Any help is appreciated. This problem is causing me a headache and a black-eye.... William Friends: We have a 3 stack Radian system installed about two years ago. The customer had some health issues and is just moving into the new home. Over the weekend the system started strobing the AC output. One or more of the inverters was clicking and buzzing. Tech support diagnosed a faulty setting for power save. We adjusted as recommended but problem persists. On site, I found the clicking from transfer relays and a pop-buzz from one or both power units on inverter 3. When I unplugged the data cable to that inverter the noises stopped. The inverter data cables are all new about 2 months to resolve the dreaded firmware mismatch problem. They are not shielded. I tried a new factory shielded cable on 3 but problem persists. I have been holding all morning for tech support. BTW pressing 2 for call-back does not work. Any help would be appreciated. I am stuck on site until this is resolved.... William Miller From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Sep 3 21:16:58 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 18:16:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3 stack Radian Problem In-Reply-To: <63a8c044d08f97b68bc2b46714d42863@mail.gmail.com> References: <63a8c044d08f97b68bc2b46714d42863@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William Sounds like the inverters are in search not on, have you changed the inverters to on instead of search. Have you considered a hard reset to factory. Also as a POE (process of elimination) I would turn off one of the slaves at a time, even switch over to a different master. I had a 16 kg in Hana that after 2 years started doing that kinda issue, it ended up be programming issues, why? dont know but it can happen. I just did a new mate 3 software update and it scrambled all the utility settings so keep notes of everything that you ever change just in case Jerry On Tue, Sep 3, 2019, 6:06 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > The message below never got posted to the Wrenches list. I don't know how > the list works but sometimes there is a quite a delay. > > I am still in need of advice. The problem went away mysteriously and then > came back. I can make the problem go away by unplugging the data cable to > inverter 3, but this can't be a permanent fix. Outback has not a clue on > what is going on... > > Any help is appreciated. This problem is causing me a headache and a > black-eye.... > > William > > > Friends: > > We have a 3 stack Radian system installed about two years ago. The > customer had some health issues and is just moving into the new home. > > Over the weekend the system started strobing the AC output. One or more of > the inverters was clicking and buzzing. > > Tech support diagnosed a faulty setting for power save. We adjusted as > recommended but problem persists. > > On site, I found the clicking from transfer relays and a pop-buzz from one > or both power units on inverter 3. When I unplugged the data cable to that > inverter the noises stopped. > > The inverter data cables are all new about 2 months to resolve the > dreaded firmware mismatch problem. They are not shielded. I tried a new > factory shielded cable on 3 but problem persists. > > I have been holding all morning for tech support. BTW pressing 2 for > call-back does not work. > > Any help would be appreciated. I am stuck on site until this is > resolved.... > > William Miller > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 3 21:24:43 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 18:24:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3 stack Radian Problem In-Reply-To: <63a8c044d08f97b68bc2b46714d42863@mail.gmail.com> References: <63a8c044d08f97b68bc2b46714d42863@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William I suspect a problem inverter, not a comm issue. If removing #3 stops the problem, then I’d move the #3 inverter into #2 slot and see if the problem still exists. If yes then It might just be one of the power modules inside #3. Or could be the control stack. I had a single power module failure that was kinda hard to isolate but when replaced all is fine. At first OB thought it was control stack, but after that didn’t fix it, we replaced one module. If all of the above still doesn’t seem to fix it or it’s still unclear then I would replace the hub. Yea seems crazy but. Jay > On Sep 3, 2019, at 5:27 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > The message below never got posted to the Wrenches list. I don't know how > the list works but sometimes there is a quite a delay. > > I am still in need of advice. The problem went away mysteriously and then > came back. I can make the problem go away by unplugging the data cable to > inverter 3, but this can't be a permanent fix. Outback has not a clue on > what is going on... > > Any help is appreciated. This problem is causing me a headache and a > black-eye.... > > William > > > Friends: > > We have a 3 stack Radian system installed about two years ago. The > customer had some health issues and is just moving into the new home. > > Over the weekend the system started strobing the AC output. One or more of > the inverters was clicking and buzzing. > > Tech support diagnosed a faulty setting for power save. We adjusted as > recommended but problem persists. > > On site, I found the clicking from transfer relays and a pop-buzz from one > or both power units on inverter 3. When I unplugged the data cable to that > inverter the noises stopped. > > The inverter data cables are all new about 2 months to resolve the > dreaded firmware mismatch problem. They are not shielded. I tried a new > factory shielded cable on 3 but problem persists. > > I have been holding all morning for tech support. BTW pressing 2 for > call-back does not work. > > Any help would be appreciated. I am stuck on site until this is > resolved.... > > William Miller > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From kent at coveoregon.com Wed Sep 4 16:22:53 2019 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 13:22:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch Message-ID: <40f99941-3fa5-8ab1-d20f-48943b240066@coveoregon.com> I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter.  Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module.  In making the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors? Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Sep 4 16:42:18 2019 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 13:42:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: <40f99941-3fa5-8ab1-d20f-48943b240066@coveoregon.com> References: <40f99941-3fa5-8ab1-d20f-48943b240066@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead and a negative factory MC4 lead? I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg wrote: > I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to > zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed > in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. > Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure > enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter. > Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module. In making > the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this > system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm > convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. > Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors? > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Sep 4 17:06:18 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 14:06:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: References: <40f99941-3fa5-8ab1-d20f-48943b240066@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l have had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to. Jerry On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: > Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead > and a negative factory MC4 lead? > > I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched. > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg wrote: > >> I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to >> zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed >> in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. >> Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure >> enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter. >> Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module. In making >> the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this >> system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm >> convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. >> Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors? >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lawrencesteven at gmail.com Wed Sep 4 17:52:37 2019 From: lawrencesteven at gmail.com (Steven Lawrence) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 17:52:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Everyone, Just to add to this, I've seen multiple melted connectors that couldn't be traced to anything other than mixing manufacturers. I've seen some connectors where you can clearly seeing arcing on the pin itself and nowhere else. The crimps and the housing were fine. I've postulated it had to do with slightly different metals expanding/contracting at different rates. I've made it a very hard rule at my company to never mix manufacturers of connectors. When we order modules, we specifically have the PO call out the manufacturer of the connector (can't just be "MC4 compatible"). Typically we order that same brand of connectors, but sometimes we end up getting 6" jumpers made by a harness company (there are some connectors out there that can only work with #12 wire. Can't use them on #10 homeruns). It's drastically cut down on the number of melted connectors. We've averaged maybe 1 or 2 on 6MW projects over a year with this hard requirement versus 100+ we had on a 1MW rooftop project that mixed multiple manufacturers. Steven Lawrence -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Sep 4 18:04:16 2019 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 15:04:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: References: <40f99941-3fa5-8ab1-d20f-48943b240066@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: I don’t think “some white paper” is sufficient based on Code requirements, UL standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see 2020 NEC® 690.33(C) - now requiring intermatability. Brian > On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l have had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to. > Jerry > >> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: >> Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead and a negative factory MC4 lead? >> >> I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched. >> >> Brian Mehalic >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >> (520) 204-6639 >> >> Solar Energy International >> http://www.solarenergy.org >> >> SEI Professional Services >> http://www.seisolarpros.com >> >> >> >>> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg wrote: >>> I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to >>> zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed >>> in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. >>> Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure >>> enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter. >>> Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module. In making >>> the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this >>> system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm >>> convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. >>> Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors? >>> >>> Kent Osterberg >>> Blue Mountain Solar >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Sep 4 18:26:53 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 15:26:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just to add, l had a lab and l did testing on connectors, we found that most of the aec issues were under low light. This appeared to be when iradiance was low and once the irads went up the issue was less likely, this was because the Male-female contact was not tight enough and under lower power it would arc instead of heating up and expanding. I used a IR Camera but could see little change due to the plastic. Then l used an IV curve tester and shaded partially shaded the module after several repeat testing the connectors got warm. I would suggest making your own connector pull out tool to check the contact pressures. This is where you may find your problem components. It appears that early am testing had lower volts and the inverter pushed the current up and causes the loose connector to fail due to the lower volts. This testing was done both in the field 1/2 meg and lab testing results were very close. The modules used for testing were Trina and the field inverters were ABB and Fronius Sorry for the long note Jerry On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 2:52 PM Steven Lawrence wrote: > Everyone, > > Just to add to this, I've seen multiple melted connectors that couldn't be > traced to anything other than mixing manufacturers. I've seen some > connectors where you can clearly seeing arcing on the pin itself and > nowhere else. The crimps and the housing were fine. I've postulated it > had to do with slightly different metals expanding/contracting at different > rates. I've made it a very hard rule at my company to never mix > manufacturers of connectors. When we order modules, we specifically have > the PO call out the manufacturer of the connector (can't just be "MC4 > compatible"). Typically we order that same brand of connectors, but > sometimes we end up getting 6" jumpers made by a harness company (there are > some connectors out there that can only work with #12 wire. Can't use them > on #10 homeruns). It's drastically cut down on the number of melted > connectors. We've averaged maybe 1 or 2 on 6MW projects over a year with > this hard requirement versus 100+ we had on a 1MW rooftop project that > mixed multiple manufacturers. > > Steven Lawrence > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Sep 5 07:52:11 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:52:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker that has horizontal axis in east-west orientation? Problem appears solved In-Reply-To: <00e2cbb9-284e-48d9-4984-20a721b0159a@entech-engineering.com> References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> <00e2cbb9-284e-48d9-4984-20a721b0159a@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: I wanted to follow up on the issue I had previously posted. We installed two ArrayTech trackers at different sites in the unconventional east-west orientation. One worked well and one operated so that it was not facing south very often.  Kyle was able to guide me through some troubleshooting and it appears the problem is fixed. The tracker that worked properly had the sensor on the west end of the array and was pointed east.  The tracker not working as expected had the sensor on the east end of the array and was pointed west.  We swapped the east/west sensor wires in the controller, and reduced the ghost tracking setting.  This caused the tracker to work properly. Chris From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 11:25:31 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 08:25:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: References: <40f99941-3fa5-8ab1-d20f-48943b240066@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Brian Missing the point, yes they are compatible but as we have seen in the real world there are issues. This can give module and micro inverter manufacturers an out regarding failures and responsibility Jerry On Thu, Sep 5, 2019, 1:41 AM Brian Mehalic wrote: > I don’t think “some white paper” is sufficient based on Code requirements, > UL standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see 2020 NEC® > 690.33(C) - now requiring intermatability. > > Brian > > On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l > have had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to. > Jerry > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: > >> Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead >> and a negative factory MC4 lead? >> >> I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched. >> >> Brian Mehalic >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >> (520) 204-6639 >> >> Solar Energy International >> http://www.solarenergy.org >> >> SEI Professional Services >> http://www.seisolarpros.com >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg >> wrote: >> >>> I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to >>> zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed >>> in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. >>> Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure >>> enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter. >>> Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module. In making >>> the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this >>> system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm >>> convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. >>> Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors? >>> >>> Kent Osterberg >>> Blue Mountain Solar >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Sep 5 11:11:12 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 08:11:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Residential_tracker_that_has_horizontal_?= =?utf-8?q?axis_in_east-west_orientation=3F_Problem_appears_solved?= In-Reply-To: References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> <00e2cbb9-284e-48d9-4984-20a721b0159a@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <3580ea44a51b55e88f33720227e15a35@127.0.0.1> Thanks Chris for the follow up. These were HZLA'a right? Kyle and his Dad Jeff are great for Wattsun Support! These units have the manual track mode also, right? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:52:11 -0400, Christopher Warfel wrote: > I wanted to follow up on the issue I had previously posted. > > We installed two ArrayTech trackers at different sites in the > unconventional east-west orientation. One worked well and one operated > so that it was not facing south very often.  Kyle was able to guide me > through some troubleshooting and it appears the problem is fixed. > > The tracker that worked properly had the sensor on the west end of the > array and was pointed east.  The tracker not working as expected had the > sensor on the east end of the array and was pointed west.  We swapped > the east/west sensor wires in the controller, and reduced the ghost > tracking setting.  This caused the tracker to work properly. > > > Chris > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From dana at solarwork.com Thu Sep 5 11:56:04 2019 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 09:56:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker that has horizontal axis in east-west orientation? Problem appears solved In-Reply-To: <3580ea44a51b55e88f33720227e15a35@127.0.0.1> References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> <00e2cbb9-284e-48d9-4984-20a721b0159a@entech-engineering.com> <3580ea44a51b55e88f33720227e15a35@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <001a01d56402$6d1e9290$475bb7b0$@solarwork.com> Yes you push the small green tab on the breaker for the direction desired. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2019 9:11 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker that has horizontal axis in east-west orientation? Problem appears solved Thanks Chris for the follow up. These were HZLA'a right? Kyle and his Dad Jeff are great for Wattsun Support! These units have the manual track mode also, right? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:52:11 -0400, Christopher Warfel wrote: > I wanted to follow up on the issue I had previously posted. > > We installed two ArrayTech trackers at different sites in the > unconventional east-west orientation. One worked well and one operated > so that it was not facing south very often. Kyle was able to guide me > through some troubleshooting and it appears the problem is fixed. > > The tracker that worked properly had the sensor on the west end of the > array and was pointed east. The tracker not working as expected had > the > sensor on the east end of the array and was pointed west. We swapped > the east/west sensor wires in the controller, and reduced the ghost > tracking setting. This caused the tracker to work properly. > > > Chris > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 13:14:11 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 10:14:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: References: <40f99941-3fa5-8ab1-d20f-48943b240066@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Hi Jerry I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying that the white paper overrules ( if that’s the correct way to say it) the UL and OEM guidelines? Jay > On Sep 5, 2019, at 8:25 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Brian > Missing the point, yes they are compatible but as we have seen in the real world there are issues. This can give module and micro inverter manufacturers an out regarding failures and responsibility > Jerry > >> On Thu, Sep 5, 2019, 1:41 AM Brian Mehalic wrote: >> I don’t think “some white paper” is sufficient based on Code requirements, UL standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see 2020 NEC® 690.33(C) - now requiring intermatability. >> >> Brian >> >>> On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches >>> Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l have had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to. >>> Jerry >>> >>>> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: >>>> Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead and a negative factory MC4 lead? >>>> >>>> I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched. >>>> >>>> Brian Mehalic >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >>>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >>>> (520) 204-6639 >>>> >>>> Solar Energy International >>>> http://www.solarenergy.org >>>> >>>> SEI Professional Services >>>> http://www.seisolarpros.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg wrote: >>>>> I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to >>>>> zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed >>>>> in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. >>>>> Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure >>>>> enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter. >>>>> Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module. In making >>>>> the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this >>>>> system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm >>>>> convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. >>>>> Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors? >>>>> >>>>> Kent Osterberg >>>>> Blue Mountain Solar >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Sep 5 16:27:44 2019 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:27:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge - are you listening on here??? Message-ID: <009a01d56428$6063a470$212aed50$@solarcentex.com> How did a company that I would tell customers had the very best tech support in the business fall so far, so quickly. This is the 5th exchange with tech support regarding StorEdge not charging. Used to work just great.until it did not. At least I'm only 34 in line. SolarEdge - your Director of Sales swears thre is no problem but there really is one. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 39012 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Sep 5 17:07:38 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 17:07:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker that has horizontal axis in east-west orientation? Problem appears solved In-Reply-To: <3580ea44a51b55e88f33720227e15a35@127.0.0.1> References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> <00e2cbb9-284e-48d9-4984-20a721b0159a@entech-engineering.com> <3580ea44a51b55e88f33720227e15a35@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Yes to both of  your questions.  I am feeling a lot better about this now. On 9/5/2019 11:11 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > Thanks Chris for the follow up. These were HZLA'a right? Kyle and his Dad > Jeff are great for Wattsun Support! These units have the manual track mode > also, right? > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:52:11 -0400, Christopher Warfel > wrote: >> I wanted to follow up on the issue I had previously posted. >> >> We installed two ArrayTech trackers at different sites in the >> unconventional east-west orientation. One worked well and one operated >> so that it was not facing south very often.  Kyle was able to guide me >> through some troubleshooting and it appears the problem is fixed. >> >> The tracker that worked properly had the sensor on the west end of the >> array and was pointed east.  The tracker not working as expected had the >> sensor on the east end of the array and was pointed west.  We swapped >> the east/west sensor wires in the controller, and reduced the ghost >> tracking setting.  This caused the tracker to work properly. >> >> >> Chris >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Sep 5 17:09:15 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 17:09:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker that has horizontal axis in east-west orientation? Problem appears solved In-Reply-To: <001a01d56402$6d1e9290$475bb7b0$@solarwork.com> References: <1b4858b4-cd76-7132-680d-9cfda77bb63a@entech-engineering.com> <0e1e64b9-3488-df83-599c-1a6776971560@entech-engineering.com> <00e2cbb9-284e-48d9-4984-20a721b0159a@entech-engineering.com> <3580ea44a51b55e88f33720227e15a35@127.0.0.1> <001a01d56402$6d1e9290$475bb7b0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <405f7d7d-7fa2-eb5c-42e0-034723545972@entech-engineering.com> You have to be in manual mode and that is not very easy and we did not want to defeat the purpose of automation. We have done the manual ones and they do work very well.  People like to move the modules if it is easy.  And, these are really easy.  I even did it by just using my fingers.  (oyster farm work helps with that) On 9/5/2019 11:56 AM, Dana wrote: > Yes you push the small green tab on the breaker for the direction desired. > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2019 9:11 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker that has horizontal axis in east-west orientation? Problem appears solved > > Thanks Chris for the follow up. These were HZLA'a right? Kyle and his Dad Jeff are great for Wattsun Support! These units have the manual track mode also, right? > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:52:11 -0400, Christopher Warfel wrote: >> I wanted to follow up on the issue I had previously posted. >> >> We installed two ArrayTech trackers at different sites in the >> unconventional east-west orientation. One worked well and one operated >> so that it was not facing south very often. Kyle was able to guide me >> through some troubleshooting and it appears the problem is fixed. >> >> The tracker that worked properly had the sensor on the west end of the >> array and was pointed east. The tracker not working as expected had >> the >> sensor on the east end of the array and was pointed west. We swapped >> the east/west sensor wires in the controller, and reduced the ghost >> tracking setting. This caused the tracker to work properly. >> >> >> Chris >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org From andrew at greenwired.com Thu Sep 5 17:15:27 2019 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 14:15:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage Message-ID: <017b01d5642f$0aab80f0$200282d0$@greenwired.com> Hey Everyone, I have been recently been getting more and more inquiries for some quite large off-grid sytems(25kw per hour) and seeing what you guys have for suggestions on bigger inverters and storage systems? I could do 2 triple stack Schneider's and a bunch of HUPS industrial batteries but it all just takes up so much space and I know there are some other companies out there with package units. Thoughts? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Sep 5 18:16:27 2019 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:16:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage Message-ID: <005d01d56437$909ec200$b1dc4600$@solarwork.com> You will have to park the 'Package' somewhere. Yeah off grid takes space & WLA batteries like to be warm in the winter & not too hot in the summer. Basements? Dedicated building? Storage container [insulated]? Radiant floors make for happy batteries. Cool in summer & warm in winter. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Andrew Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2019 3:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage Hey Everyone, I have been recently been getting more and more inquiries for some quite large off-grid sytems(25kw per hour) and seeing what you guys have for suggestions on bigger inverters and storage systems? I could do 2 triple stack Schneider's and a bunch of HUPS industrial batteries but it all just takes up so much space and I know there are some other companies out there with package units. Thoughts? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Sep 5 18:33:43 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 15:33:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage In-Reply-To: <005d01d56437$909ec200$b1dc4600$@solarwork.com> References: <005d01d56437$909ec200$b1dc4600$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <309a0a254e38cdb349d448fc378fdd47@127.0.0.1> I often find that numbers like 25KW per hour are just overblown and the rest of the Offgrid load power data is too high. Offgrid is all about the state of the art in not needing high power levels by using the best equipment available for the loads. One can't simply take a power bill from a utility and try to duplicate it offgrid. The loads have to be reduced drastically. Maybe this is not the case here and if so I digress. Good Luck Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:16:27 -0600, "Dana" wrote: You will have to park the 'Package' somewhere… Yeah off grid takes space & WLA batteries like to be warm in the winter ">Basements? Dedicated building? Storage container [insulated]? Radiant floors make for happy batteries. Cool in summer "> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 DANA at SOLARWORK.COM Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com [3] "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Andrew SENT: Thursday, September 05, 2019 3:15 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage Hey Everyone, I have been recently been getting more and more inquiries for some quite large off-grid sytems(25kw per hour) and seeing what you guys have for suggestions on bigger inverters and storage systems? I could do 2 triple stack Schneider's and a bunch of HUPS industrial batteries but it all just takes up so much space and I know there are some other companies out there with package units. Thoughts? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [4] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.solarwork.com [4] http://www.greenwired.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 22:47:41 2019 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (palumbo131m at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 22:47:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage In-Reply-To: <017b01d5642f$0aab80f0$200282d0$@greenwired.com> References: <017b01d5642f$0aab80f0$200282d0$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <31C40C43-3696-48D6-8321-4B9998BE4DC9@gmail.com> Is “25 Kw per hour” a real value? For us old school people there is kW and they is kWh (kilowatt hours). I’m guessing that it is 25 kWh per average day, or, about 750 KWh / month. Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 5, 2019, at 5:15 PM, Andrew wrote: > > Hey Everyone, > I have been recently been getting more and more inquiries for some quite large off-grid sytems(25kw per hour) and seeing what you guys have for suggestions on bigger inverters and storage systems? I could do 2 triple stack Schneider’s and a bunch of HUPS industrial batteries but it all just takes up so much space and I know there are some other companies out there with package units. Thoughts? > > Andrew Perkins > Greenwired > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > Redway, CA 95560 > www.greenwired.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Thu Sep 5 22:50:29 2019 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 19:50:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage In-Reply-To: <309a0a254e38cdb349d448fc378fdd47@127.0.0.1> References: <005d01d56437$909ec200$b1dc4600$@solarwork.com> <309a0a254e38cdb349d448fc378fdd47@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: The sentence “25KW per hour“ does not make sense. Do they mean 25KWh per hour? That would be 600 KWh per day! That would require over 200KW of PV. David Katz On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 3:33 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > I often find that numbers like 25KW per hour are just overblown and the > rest of the Offgrid load power data is too high. > > Offgrid is all about the state of the art in not needing high power levels > by using the best equipment available for the loads. > > One can't simply take a power bill from a utility and try to duplicate it > offgrid. The loads have to be reduced drastically. > > Maybe this is not the case here and if so I digress. Good Luck > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:16:27 -0600, "Dana" wrote: > > You will have to park the ‘Package’ somewhere… Yeah off grid takes space & > WLA batteries like to be warm in the winter & not too hot in the summer. > > Basements? Dedicated building? Storage container [insulated]? > > Radiant floors make for happy batteries. Cool in summer & warm in winter. > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Andrew > *Sent:* Thursday, September 05, 2019 3:15 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage > > > > Hey Everyone, > > I have been recently been getting more and more inquiries > for some quite large off-grid sytems(25kw per hour) and seeing what you > guys have for suggestions on bigger inverters and storage systems? I could > do 2 triple stack Schneider’s and a bunch of HUPS industrial batteries but > it all just takes up so much space and I know there are some other > companies out there with package units. Thoughts? > > > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > [image: Description: signature] > > > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Sep 5 23:01:22 2019 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 21:01:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Outback Mate question Message-ID: <58dd0a7a-28cc-a495-4f21-9cf7f61685fd@sindelarsolar.com> Wrenches, I have a customer with a 2005-era Outback VFX3648-based off grid residential system. Her original Mate had lost response on several of the six buttons. I told her that the Mate is no longer made, and a Mate3 is larger (won't fit her space), expensive and overkill for her needs. I offered to attempt to repair hers, as it seemed to me that it would be a simple task. I removed the cover and the silicon button molding, and used a Q-tip with a bit of electronic cleaner and lubricant from Radio Shack to clean the contacts. When I put it back together none of the buttons made active contact. - Any idea what I might have done wrong to cause further failure? I'm wondering if the cleaner included an oil that hindered conductivity, rather than enabled it, and whether trying again with denatured alcohol (or something more potent still?) might resolve the problem. - Any suggestions about how to correct the (fairly common) problem of the buttons not making contact after years of service? - Anyone repairing older Mates that you might pass on? - Any way to buy a new or refurbished Mate? Thank you for any help here., Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce4power at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 23:06:22 2019 From: bruce4power at gmail.com (Bruce Geddes) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:06:22 +1200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Outback Mate question In-Reply-To: <58dd0a7a-28cc-a495-4f21-9cf7f61685fd@sindelarsolar.com> References: <58dd0a7a-28cc-a495-4f21-9cf7f61685fd@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <000f01d56460$1191bf20$34b53d60$@gmail.com> The rubber button pad is available as a replacement part. The carbon contacts degrade over time and cleaning does not always restore functionality. Same with the buttons on the MX and FM controllers. Bruce Geddes PowerOn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Sindelar Solar Sent: Friday, 6 September 2019 3:01 p.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Outback Mate question Wrenches, I have a customer with a 2005-era Outback VFX3648-based off grid residential system. Her original Mate had lost response on several of the six buttons. I told her that the Mate is no longer made, and a Mate3 is larger (won't fit her space), expensive and overkill for her needs. I offered to attempt to repair hers, as it seemed to me that it would be a simple task. I removed the cover and the silicon button molding, and used a Q-tip with a bit of electronic cleaner and lubricant from Radio Shack to clean the contacts. When I put it back together none of the buttons made active contact. - Any idea what I might have done wrong to cause further failure? I'm wondering if the cleaner included an oil that hindered conductivity, rather than enabled it, and whether trying again with denatured alcohol (or something more potent still?) might resolve the problem. - Any suggestions about how to correct the (fairly common) problem of the buttons not making contact after years of service? - Anyone repairing older Mates that you might pass on? - Any way to buy a new or refurbished Mate? Thank you for any help here., Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 23:14:56 2019 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 23:14:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Outback Mate question In-Reply-To: <58dd0a7a-28cc-a495-4f21-9cf7f61685fd@sindelarsolar.com> References: <58dd0a7a-28cc-a495-4f21-9cf7f61685fd@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Allan, Contact me off list. I have many good MATE’s needing a home. I have sold many customers on the OpticsRE so I have a lot of orphaned Mates still in good condition. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service 200 West Road N Chittenden, VT 05763 802-770-8625 John.blittersdorf at gmail.com On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 11:01 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Wrenches, > > I have a customer with a 2005-era Outback VFX3648-based off grid > residential system. Her original Mate had lost response on several of the > six buttons. I told her that the Mate is no longer made, and a Mate3 is > larger (won't fit her space), expensive and overkill for her needs. I > offered to attempt to repair hers, as it seemed to me that it would be a > simple task. I removed the cover and the silicon button molding, and used a > Q-tip with a bit of electronic cleaner and lubricant from Radio Shack to > clean the contacts. When I put it back together none of the buttons made > active contact. > > - Any idea what I might have done wrong to cause further failure? I'm > wondering if the cleaner included an oil that hindered conductivity, rather > than enabled it, and whether trying again with denatured alcohol (or > something more potent still?) might resolve the problem. > > - Any suggestions about how to correct the (fairly common) problem of the > buttons not making contact after years of service? > > - Anyone repairing older Mates that you might pass on? > > - Any way to buy a new or refurbished Mate? > > Thank you for any help here., > > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Sep 6 07:14:03 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 05:14:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults In-Reply-To: <01302bce1a016e0a41f42fb9077caa5e@127.0.0.1> References: <9bf0d442481c01b7d9e390a1e9ba1dcd22c9ece1@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2eea28ef-67f5-f66c-a92f-5bf9bfe8763c@psln.com> <01302bce1a016e0a41f42fb9077caa5e@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, You may be aware of this but the -92R firmware supposedly has addressed the arc fault issue for the US-40 inverters. See here for the download: https://www.sma-america.com/service-support/downloads.html It fixed an arc fault issue for me yesterday at least. Bring a thumb drive, the update process took about an hour to perform. On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 10:40 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Same up here in the southern sierra. I get calls from ABB and a few from > SMA to look at systems that people far away installed and as a local 3rd > party it can save some money. Whatever they quote me I triple the price. > 1/3 up front and the rest when it is done. ABB is really slow with payment. > I think they sold their inverter business? Sunpower is a great panel but > they have had some bad runs. Probably why there are so many new/used panels > on the secondary market. They are great for Offgrid ground arrays and no > AFD. > > On Tue, 3 Sep 2019 09:52:19 -0400, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > > Chris, > Sunpower has taken some responsibility on some of our older Sunpower > systems that are arc faulting. We tell them that a system is arc faulting, > and then they insist on sending up a 3rd party contractor to inspect the > system and potentially install what they call "Tigo Diodes". I am still not > exactly sure what that is. It also seems to take them months to send anyone > to upstate NY, as we have a bunch of customers that have been waiting > months for the 3rd party contractor to come take a look. You likely could > only follow this route though if the system was installed by a Sunpower > dealer and you are a Sunpower dealer yourself. If the original system was > from a Sunpower dealer, you can also have the customer call Sunpower > directly. > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > > On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 9:43 AM Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> Got called in by another peer to debug that infamous SMA error 8206 on a >> 2 year old 5kw unit. The array is roof mounted on composite shingles with >> 14 SunPower 345w modules. First time ever seeing this error on this >> project. I'd love to hear from others as to what they've found or better >> yet hear from an SMA rep as to what they suggest. Not a whole lot of detail >> in the SMA users manual. >> >> Thanks, >> Christopher >> >> Chris Schaefer's >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 12:03 PM Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >>> Wrenches >>> I have had chiller pump contactor along with wells, shop air compressors >>> all create enough of an arc to trigger the inverters. ABB inverters only >>> pick up off the DC but even there l had arc welders trip the inverters. >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 2, 2019, 8:14 AM frenergy wrote: >>> >>>> Interestingly, the problems I've had with the SMA -40 AFCI faults have >>>> been on Comp roofs. When I've gone "inside" a -40 with my laptop, I'm >>>> pretty sure I've seen where you can disable it? >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> On 9/2/2019 7:12 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >>>> >>>> At least with the TL-22s, the AFCI function can be turned off. You need >>>> a* Web connect speed wire module*. .I don't know if this same protocol >>>> will work for the TL 40s or not. >>>> >>>> Metal roofing can apparently be affected by radio waves and by other >>>> factors that create a disturbance that can trigger the AFCI.The TL 40 was >>>> supposed to overcome this problem. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: >>>> "RE-wrenches" >>>> >>>> >>>> To: >>>> "RE-wrenches" >>>> >>>> Cc: >>>> >>>> Sent: >>>> Sun, 1 Sep 2019 07:42:14 -1000 >>>> Subject: >>>> [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults >>>> >>>> >>>> Aloha all, >>>> >>>> My company has really been struggling with the SMA US-40 line of >>>> inverters and incredibly disruptive to positive customer experiences bogus >>>> arc faults. >>>> >>>> We were told by our SMA friends that a firmware update/fix was >>>> forthcoming in mid-August and we've heard nor received nothing last month. >>>> >>>> Does anyone know anything as to where they're at on this? >>>> >>>> Really frustrated.... >>>> >>>> marco >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Feather River Solar Electric >>>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>>> 4291 Nelson St. >>>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>>> 530.284.7849 >>>> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Virus-free. >>>> www.avast.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer's >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Sep 6 07:17:32 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:17:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage In-Reply-To: References: <005d01d56437$909ec200$b1dc4600$@solarwork.com> <309a0a254e38cdb349d448fc378fdd47@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Victron has 10kW/120/100A pass thru, inverters and do your self a favor, buy individual 2 volt batteries. Cells DO GO BAD and replacing a cell in a HUPs battery is a CF. AND they really are a pain to install. > On Sep 5, 2019, at 10:50 PM, David Katz wrote: > > The sentence “25KW per hour“ does not make sense. Do they mean 25KWh per hour? That would be 600 KWh per day! That would require over 200KW of PV. > David Katz > > On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 3:33 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: > I often find that numbers like 25KW per hour are just overblown and the rest of the Offgrid load power data is too high. > > Offgrid is all about the state of the art in not needing high power levels by using the best equipment available for the loads. > > One can't simply take a power bill from a utility and try to duplicate it offgrid. The loads have to be reduced drastically. > > Maybe this is not the case here and if so I digress. Good Luck > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:16:27 -0600, "Dana" > wrote: > >> You will have to park the ‘Package’ somewhere… Yeah off grid takes space & WLA batteries like to be warm in the winter & not too hot in the summer. >> >> Basements? Dedicated building? Storage container [insulated]? >> >> Radiant floors make for happy batteries. Cool in summer & warm in winter. >> >> >> >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >> P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Andrew >> Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2019 3:15 PM >> To: RE-wrenches > >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage >> >> >> Hey Everyone, >> >> I have been recently been getting more and more inquiries for some quite large off-grid sytems(25kw per hour) and seeing what you guys have for suggestions on bigger inverters and storage systems? I could do 2 triple stack Schneider’s and a bunch of HUPS industrial batteries but it all just takes up so much space and I know there are some other companies out there with package units. Thoughts? >> >> >> Andrew Perkins >> >> Greenwired >> >> P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 >> >> 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd >> >> Redway, CA 95560 >> >> www.greenwired.com >> >> >> > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Sep 6 10:52:21 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:52:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage In-Reply-To: References: <005d01d56437$909ec200$b1dc4600$@solarwork.com> <309a0a254e38cdb349d448fc378fdd47@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Last time I looked, victron was not UL and you needed 2 of them for split phase. Am I wrong? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:17:32 -0400, Tump wrote: Victron has 10kW/120/100A pass thru, inverters and do your self a favor, buy individual 2 volt batteries. Cells DO GO BAD and replacing a cell in a HUPs battery is a CF. AND they really are a pain to install. On Sep 5, 2019, at 10:50 PM, David Katz wrote: The sentence "25KW per hour" does not make sense. Do they mean 25KWh per hour? That would be 600 KWh per day! That would require over 200KW of PV. David Katz On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 3:33 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: I often find that numbers like 25KW per hour are just overblown and the rest of the Offgrid load power data is too high. Offgrid is all about the state of the art in not needing high power levels by using the best equipment available for the loads. One can't simply take a power bill from a utility and try to duplicate it offgrid. The loads have to be reduced drastically. Maybe this is not the case here and if so I digress. Good Luck Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [6] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:16:27 -0600, "Dana" wrote: You will have to park the 'Package' somewhere... Yeah off grid takes space & WLA batteries like to be warm in the winter ">Basements? Dedicated building? Storage container [insulated]? Radiant floors make for happy batteries. Cool in summer "> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com [8] "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Andrew SENT: Thursday, September 05, 2019 3:15 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage Hey Everyone, I have been recently been getting more and more inquiries for some quite large off-grid sytems(25kw per hour) and seeing what you guys have for suggestions on bigger inverters and storage systems? I could do 2 triple stack Schneider's and a bunch of HUPS industrial batteries but it all just takes up so much space and I know there are some other companies out there with package units. Thoughts? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [11] -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> WWW.SWNL.NET [19] Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE "> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 _ _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:dkatz at backwoodssolar.com [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [7] mailto:dana at solarwork.com [8] http://www.solarwork.com/ [9] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.greenwired.com/ [12] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [17] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] http://webmail.sti.net/blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Fri Sep 6 11:57:56 2019 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:57:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Outback Mate question In-Reply-To: <58dd0a7a-28cc-a495-4f21-9cf7f61685fd@sindelarsolar.com> References: <58dd0a7a-28cc-a495-4f21-9cf7f61685fd@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Allan, I believe the original Mate is still available. At least my distributor still has them in stock. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 9/5/2019 8:01 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I have a customer with a 2005-era Outback VFX3648-based off grid > residential system. Her original Mate had lost response on several of > the six buttons. I told her that the Mate is no longer made, and a > Mate3 is larger (won't fit her space), expensive and overkill for her > needs. I offered to attempt to repair hers, as it seemed to me that it > would be a simple task. I removed the cover and the silicon button > molding, and used a Q-tip with a bit of electronic cleaner and > lubricant from Radio Shack to clean the contacts. When I put it back > together none of the buttons made active contact. > > - Any idea what I might have done wrong to cause further failure? I'm > wondering if the cleaner included an oil that hindered conductivity, > rather than enabled it, and whether trying again with denatured > alcohol (or something more potent still?) might resolve the problem. > > - Any suggestions about how to correct the (fairly common) problem of > the buttons not making contact after years of service? > > - Anyone repairing older Mates that you might pass on? > > - Any way to buy a new or refurbished Mate? > > Thank you for any help here., > > Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Fri Sep 6 12:32:57 2019 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 09:32:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage In-Reply-To: <31C40C43-3696-48D6-8321-4B9998BE4DC9@gmail.com> References: <017b01d5642f$0aab80f0$200282d0$@greenwired.com> <31C40C43-3696-48D6-8321-4B9998BE4DC9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <022801d564d0$be1d3ce0$3a57b6a0$@greenwired.com> Yeah these are for industrial cannabis operations that are starting to spring up due to legalization..36” industrial greenhouse fans, pre vegetation lighting, supplemental light and dehumidifiers… why they still want to do it in the middle of the boonies with now power is beyond me.. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Description: signature From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of palumbo131m at gmail.com Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2019 7:48 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage Is “25 Kw per hour” a real value? For us old school people there is kW and they is kWh (kilowatt hours). I’m guessing that it is 25 kWh per average day, or, about 750 KWh / month. Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT Sent from my iPhone On Sep 5, 2019, at 5:15 PM, Andrew wrote: Hey Everyone, I have been recently been getting more and more inquiries for some quite large off-grid sytems(25kw per hour) and seeing what you guys have for suggestions on bigger inverters and storage systems? I could do 2 triple stack Schneider’s and a bunch of HUPS industrial batteries but it all just takes up so much space and I know there are some other companies out there with package units. Thoughts? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Sep 6 13:14:23 2019 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 10:14:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage In-Reply-To: <017b01d5642f$0aab80f0$200282d0$@greenwired.com> References: <017b01d5642f$0aab80f0$200282d0$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <770A2C1A-A775-40C5-8275-5BA89D648FCB@starlightsolar.com> Hi Andrew, Any phrase that includes “per hour” while describing power use, generation or storage in a RE system is probably a misnomer. Think about it: you could just as well say 25kW per second or per month. That’s because kW is a term that describes a rate or power, not a quantity of energy used or stored; kWh defines that. In our retail store I have heard this term hundreds of times. While I am describing the difference between Watts and Watt-Hours, which is typically the source of confusion, I ask, “Would you say that your car has a 200HP “per hour” engine?” No, you would just say 200HP because you are describing power. So, if you meant the combined loads require 25kW to operate, use that number to determine inverter or generator sizes. If you are describing 25kWh of energy use or storage, use that to determine power production and battery bank size. To your question: I am a fan of using Li-ion batteries for the long life, weight and space savings, no maintenance, much higher charge rates, fastest recharging, and the 40% reduction in the PV system size compared to LA storage. Plus you get battery protection and monitoring included. Since you never have to fully charge them, for offgrid use, the advantages are huge. For people making $$$$ growing weeds, buy the best. Contact me off the list if you would like more understanding about Li battery storage. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems larry at starlightsolar.com On Sep 6, 2019, at 9:32 AM, Andrew wrote: Yeah these are for industrial cannabis operations that are starting to spring up due to legalization..36” industrial greenhouse fans, pre vegetation lighting, supplemental light and dehumidifiers… why they still want to do it in the middle of the boonies with now power is beyond me.. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 On Sep 5, 2019, at 2:15 PM, Andrew wrote: Hey Everyone, I have been recently been getting more and more inquiries for some quite large off-grid sytems(25kw per hour) and seeing what you guys have for suggestions on bigger inverters and storage systems? I could do 2 triple stack Schneider’s and a bunch of HUPS industrial batteries but it all just takes up so much space and I know there are some other companies out there with package units. Thoughts? Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Sep 6 15:07:27 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 13:07:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage In-Reply-To: <022801d564d0$be1d3ce0$3a57b6a0$@greenwired.com> References: <017b01d5642f$0aab80f0$200282d0$@greenwired.com> <31C40C43-3696-48D6-8321-4B9998BE4DC9@gmail.com> <022801d564d0$be1d3ce0$3a57b6a0$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Here in Colorado, I've been called upon to do a few design bids for these.  I always charge a healthy design fee to eliminate the tire kickers.  You can spend quite a bit of time just characterizing the loads, only to lose the client when they find out its going to be several hundred thousand dollars. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/6/19 10:32 AM, Andrew wrote: > > Yeah these are for industrial cannabis operations that are starting to > spring up due to legalization..36” industrial greenhouse fans, pre > vegetation lighting, supplemental light and dehumidifiers… why they > still want to do it in the middle of the boonies with now power is > beyond me.. > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > Description: signature > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *palumbo131m at gmail.com > *Sent:* Thursday, September 05, 2019 7:48 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage > > Is “25 Kw per hour” a real value? For us old school people there is kW > and they is kWh (kilowatt hours). I’m guessing that it is 25 kWh per > average day, or, about 750 KWh / month. > > Dave Palumbo > > Hyde Park, VT > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Sep 5, 2019, at 5:15 PM, Andrew > wrote: > > Hey Everyone, > >                 I have been recently been getting more and more > inquiries for some quite large off-grid sytems(25kw per hour) and > seeing what you guys have for suggestions on bigger inverters and > storage systems?  I could do 2 triple stack Schneider’s and a > bunch of HUPS industrial batteries but it all just takes up so > much space and I know there are some other companies out there > with package units. Thoughts? > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Fri Sep 6 15:12:54 2019 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 12:12:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage In-Reply-To: References: <017b01d5642f$0aab80f0$200282d0$@greenwired.com> <31C40C43-3696-48D6-8321-4B9998BE4DC9@gmail.com> <022801d564d0$be1d3ce0$3a57b6a0$@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Same. We've started calling our initial $100k+ proposals the 'kiss of Death' since we tend to never hear from them again. It's a good way to weed out those who aren't willing to spend the time/capital on a system that will actually perform what they're asking (reliably!). On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 12:07 PM Ray wrote: > Here in Colorado, I've been called upon to do a few design bids for > these. I always charge a healthy design fee to eliminate the tire > kickers. You can spend quite a bit of time just characterizing the loads, > only to lose the client when they find out its going to be several hundred > thousand dollars. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/6/19 10:32 AM, Andrew wrote: > > Yeah these are for industrial cannabis operations that are starting to > spring up due to legalization..36” industrial greenhouse fans, pre > vegetation lighting, supplemental light and dehumidifiers… why they still > want to do it in the middle of the boonies with now power is beyond me.. > > > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > [image: Description: signature] > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of * > palumbo131m at gmail.com > *Sent:* Thursday, September 05, 2019 7:48 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Large off-grid inverter/storage > > > > Is “25 Kw per hour” a real value? For us old school people there is kW and > they is kWh (kilowatt hours). I’m guessing that it is 25 kWh per average > day, or, about 750 KWh / month. > > Dave Palumbo > > Hyde Park, VT > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Sep 5, 2019, at 5:15 PM, Andrew wrote: > > Hey Everyone, > > I have been recently been getting more and more inquiries > for some quite large off-grid sytems(25kw per hour) and seeing what you > guys have for suggestions on bigger inverters and storage systems? I could > do 2 triple stack Schneider’s and a bunch of HUPS industrial batteries but > it all just takes up so much space and I know there are some other > companies out there with package units. Thoughts? > > > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Fri Sep 6 19:50:06 2019 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 23:50:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback stocking distributor Message-ID: Hello Can you recommend a distributor for a Radian inverter bypass kit? Our usual no longer sells.....What? Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Sep 7 09:05:35 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:05:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply Side Connections: Grounding Message-ID: There doesn't seem to be a definitive and detailed consensus article/resource out there that addresses this topic. There are articles that dance around the subject, but little in terms of practical ways to accomplish grounding/binding with a supply side interconnection. AHJ's and engineers have all kinds of differing opinions. As an industry, it seems like we should have a definitive guide on the subject. Let's take a simple/common ungrounded inverter (or microinverter) system that is interconnected using supply side taps inside an existing load center with main disconnect. From the roof to the PV AC Combiner you have an appropriately sized EGC, and no GEC because a GEC is not required in this ungrounded system other than the existing premises GEC (and GE system). Let's assume the AHJ agrees that no GEC is required from the roof, which is a whole other subject that drive me nuts). Coming from the PV AC Combiner panel (if present) or Inverter you have two current carrying conductors L1 and L2 that are tapped on the service conductors. The neutral from the PV AC Combiner or inverter is landed on the existing neutral bus of the same main load center where the tap is made. Now what happens with the EGC that comes from the roof to the PV AC Combiner (or inverter)? What I have run into, and there may be other opinions, are the following assertions by AHJs: - Land the EGC on the PV AC Combiner and stop there. Bond neutral to ground. The neutral carries the fault current to the system bonding point in the main service panel. - Land the EGC in the PV AC Combiner and continue the EGC to the ground bar in the main service panel. Do not bond neutral to ground in the PC AC Combiner. - From the PV AC Combiner, install a GEC directly to the existing grounding electrode, and do not run an EGC to the main service panel. - Some combination of the above. Can anyone point to a clear and concise 3-line diagram that explains the acceptable options? Hopefully something that and AHJ will consider, like an IAEI article or NEC Handbook graphic. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Desing Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stc.jason at gmail.com Sat Sep 7 07:54:51 2019 From: stc.jason at gmail.com (Jason Fisher (STC)) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 11:54:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: References: <40f99941-3fa5-8ab1-d20f-48943b240066@coveoregon.com> , Message-ID: Kent, I don’t see an answer to Brian’s question about the LG module’s original connector configuration. We’re these modules actually factory shipped with one H4 and one MC4 connector on different polarities? That would be bizarre. Otherwise to back up Brian’s point about Intermatability, this is a UL 6703 term that was added in NEC2020 to specifically address this question, how can installers have confidence when they are asked to connect two different manufacturer’s mating connectors. Bottom line is don’t connect “mismatched” connectors, ever. Only connect different manufacturers, and/or different models of mating connectors if at least one of the companies produces proof of evaluation of that combination by an NRTL. Warning that this is rare at this point (those wouldn’t therefore be “mismatched”). This is a very important issue so my advice to Wrenches is to keep firm and don’t budge on this one. Also curious if you all still think you can’t cut off module connectors? We need to correct that if so. Jason Fisher ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jerry Shafer Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 11:25 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch Brian Missing the point, yes they are compatible but as we have seen in the real world there are issues. This can give module and micro inverter manufacturers an out regarding failures and responsibility Jerry On Thu, Sep 5, 2019, 1:41 AM Brian Mehalic > wrote: I don’t think “some white paper” is sufficient based on Code requirements, UL standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see 2020 NEC® 690.33(C) - now requiring intermatability. Brian On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: Wrenches Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l have had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to. Jerry On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic > wrote: Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead and a negative factory MC4 lead? I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg > wrote: I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter. Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module. In making the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors? Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Sep 7 09:56:31 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 09:56:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Outback Mate question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A client found one on eBay. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:57:56 -0700 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Old Outback Mate question Allan, I believe the original Mate is still available. At least my distributor still has them in stock. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 9/5/2019 8:01 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: Wrenches, I have a customer with a 2005-era Outback VFX3648-based off grid residential system. Her original Mate had lost response on several of the six buttons. I told her that the Mate is no longer made, and a Mate3 is larger (won't fit her space), expensive and overkill for her needs. I offered to attempt to repair hers, as it seemed to me that it would be a simple task. I removed the cover and the silicon button molding, and used a Q-tip with a bit of electronic cleaner and lubricant from Radio Shack to clean the contacts. When I put it back together none of the buttons made active contact. - Any idea what I might have done wrong to cause further failure? I'm wondering if the cleaner included an oil that hindered conductivity, rather than enabled it, and whether trying again with denatured alcohol (or something more potent still?) might resolve the problem. - Any suggestions about how to correct the (fairly common) problem of the buttons not making contact after years of service? - Anyone repairing older Mates that you might pass on? - Any way to buy a new or refurbished Mate? Thank you for any help here., Allan -- ALLAN SINDELAR allan at sindelarsolar.com [1] NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 CELL   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [2] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [3] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [4] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [5] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [6] Links: ------ [1] mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com [2] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [3] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [5] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Sep 7 11:55:12 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:55:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply Side Connections: Grounding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c03c339-a7d8-e8ce-49c3-c0b963f9a216@solarray.com> I've seen all 3 options.   This question actually comes up in the wiring of sub panels, and out buildings as well.  I find improperly bonded wiring all the time that allows current to flow on the ground, because Neutral was bonded at both ends, with an EGC also run in parallel(option 2 done incorrectly).  This is a big No No, and can cause voltages on exposed metal.  Next, my understanding is that option 1 is no longer allowed on a single service, although that is how all grid connected houses are wired to the grid and each other with separate meters.  (sorry I'm out of the office, so I don't have a code reference) As far as different opinions from different AHJs, I've had inspectors switch mid project, with the first inspector saying option 2 was ok, then the 2nd inspector required us to later run a GEC back to the GE after.   On option 3,  you would always want an EGC running with the conductors.  I have occasionally then not connected that EGC at one end, if we also had the separate GEC running back to the GE, to avoid a "lightning loop".  Having 2 ground conductors running to the same point along different paths allows lightning to induce a current in the wiring through the loop that is created. It really does get more complicated, when you also consider the grounding system's secondary purpose of providing lightning protection.   I have a great book from Polyphasor on grounding for lightning protection that is a whole nother world beyond NEC. They had grounding systems with dozens of GEs (for communications towers) but everything was attached in a star pattern to avoid any lightning loops.  Its actually possible to meet both NEC and lightning protection requirements, but it takes more consideration, and hence the varied opinions.  Not having current running on the ground system however is a serious safety issue. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/7/19 7:05 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > There doesn't seem to be a definitive and detailed consensus > article/resource out there that addresses this topic. There are > articles that dance around the subject, but little in terms of > practical ways to accomplish grounding/binding with a supply side > interconnection. AHJ's and engineers have all kinds of differing > opinions. As an industry, it seems like we should have a definitive > guide on the subject. > > Let's take a simple/common ungrounded inverter (or microinverter) > system that is interconnected using supply side taps inside an > existing load center with main disconnect. From the roof to the PV AC > Combiner you have an appropriately sized EGC, and no GEC because a GEC > is not required in this ungrounded system other than the existing > premises GEC (and GE system). Let's assume the AHJ agrees that no GEC > is required from the roof, which is a whole other subject that drive > me nuts). Coming from the PV AC Combiner panel (if present) or > Inverter you have two current carrying conductors L1 and L2 that are > tapped on the service conductors. The neutral from the PV AC Combiner > or inverter is landed on the existing neutral bus of the same main > load center where the tap is made. > > Now what happens with the EGC that comes from the roof to the PV AC > Combiner (or inverter)? > > What I have run into, and there may be other opinions, are the > following assertions by AHJs: > > * Land the EGC on the PV AC Combiner and stop there. Bond neutral to > ground. The neutral carries the fault current to the system > bonding point in the main service panel. > * Land the EGC in the PV AC Combiner and continue the EGC to the > ground bar in the main service panel. Do not bond neutral to > ground in the PC AC Combiner. > * From the PV AC Combiner, install a GEC directly to the existing > grounding electrode, and do not run an EGC to the main service panel. > * Some combination of the above. > > > Can anyone point to a clear and concise 3-line diagram that explains > the acceptable options? Hopefully something that and AHJ will > consider, like an IAEI article or NEC Handbook graphic. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Desing Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Sep 7 13:31:30 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 11:31:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: References: <40f99941-3fa5-8ab1-d20f-48943b240066@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: <1DC875AC-1FEE-43EB-8146-19CEC3D9232A@gmail.com> UL 6703 was introduced in 2014 And in regards to mating connectors, UL 6703. 1.5 This standard covers PV connectors whose dimensions are not defined in any national or international technical standard. Connectors are identified and tested with compatible mating part (or parts if multiple exist) and are to be of the same brand, unless multiple product manufacturers are submitting under the same evaluation for the purpose of proving intermatability. Maybe I’m not reading this correctly, I read it that both connector OEMs have to submit to have it meet the UL standard. jay > On Sep 7, 2019, at 5:54 AM, Jason Fisher (STC) wrote: > > Kent, I don’t see an answer to Brian’s question about the LG module’s original connector configuration. We’re these modules actually factory shipped with one H4 and one MC4 connector on different polarities? That would be bizarre. > > Otherwise to back up Brian’s point about Intermatability, this is a UL 6703 term that was added in NEC2020 to specifically address this question, how can installers have confidence when they are asked to connect two different manufacturer’s mating connectors. Bottom line is don’t connect “mismatched” connectors, ever. Only connect different manufacturers, and/or different models of mating connectors if at least one of the companies produces proof of evaluation of that combination by an NRTL. Warning that this is rare at this point (those wouldn’t therefore be “mismatched”). > > This is a very important issue so my advice to Wrenches is to keep firm and don’t budge on this one. > > Also curious if you all still think you can’t cut off module connectors? We need to correct that if so. > > Jason Fisher > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jerry Shafer > Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 11:25 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch > > Brian > Missing the point, yes they are compatible but as we have seen in the real world there are issues. This can give module and micro inverter manufacturers an out regarding failures and responsibility > Jerry > > On Thu, Sep 5, 2019, 1:41 AM Brian Mehalic > wrote: > I don’t think “some white paper” is sufficient based on Code requirements, UL standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see 2020 NEC® 690.33(C) - now requiring intermatability. > > Brian > > On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Wrenches >> Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l have had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to. >> Jerry >> >> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic > wrote: >> Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead and a negative factory MC4 lead? >> >> I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched. >> >> Brian Mehalic >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >> (520) 204-6639 >> >> Solar Energy International >> http://www.solarenergy.org >> >> SEI Professional Services >> http://www.seisolarpros.com >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg > wrote: >> I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to >> zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed >> in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. >> Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure >> enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter. >> Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module. In making >> the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this >> system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm >> convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. >> Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors? >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sun Sep 8 10:11:02 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 10:11:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply Side Connections: Grounding In-Reply-To: <9c03c339-a7d8-e8ce-49c3-c0b963f9a216@solarray.com> References: <9c03c339-a7d8-e8ce-49c3-c0b963f9a216@solarray.com> Message-ID: <6cbbf824-cdd8-2618-0070-ea8203a24d0b@entech-engineering.com> I researched some articles on this before replying but they are too out of date to be of much help. This is my two cents worth. The pv system EGC needs to be connected to the grounding busbar system. The pv system EGC also needs to be irreversibly connected to the GEC. The system neutral and the ECG need to be bonded, usually that is at the Supply Side Disconnect. If you have a ac combiner upstream, it should just be grounded, not bonded. If a production meter is involved, that too, should be grounded, not bonded. Below is a graphic from Mike Holt with some edits.  Chris On 9/7/2019 11:55 AM, Ray wrote: > > I've seen all 3 options.   This question actually comes up in the > wiring of sub panels, and out buildings as well.  I find improperly > bonded wiring all the time that allows current to flow on the ground, > because Neutral was bonded at both ends, with an EGC also run in > parallel(option 2 done incorrectly). This is a big No No, and can > cause voltages on exposed metal. Next, my understanding is that option > 1 is no longer allowed on a single service, although that is how all > grid connected houses are wired to the grid and each other with > separate meters. (sorry I'm out of the office, so I don't have a code > reference) > > As far as different opinions from different AHJs, I've had inspectors > switch mid project, with the first inspector saying option 2 was ok, > then the 2nd inspector required us to later run a GEC back to the GE > after.   On option 3,  you would always want an EGC running with the > conductors.  I have occasionally then not connected that EGC at one > end, if we also had the separate GEC running back to the GE, to avoid > a "lightning loop".  Having 2 ground conductors running to the same > point along different paths allows lightning to induce a current in > the wiring through the loop that is created. > > It really does get more complicated, when you also consider the > grounding system's secondary purpose of providing lightning > protection.   I have a great book from Polyphasor on grounding for > lightning protection that is a whole nother world beyond NEC.  They > had grounding systems with dozens of GEs (for communications towers) > but everything was attached in a star pattern to avoid any lightning > loops.  Its actually possible to meet both NEC and lightning > protection requirements, but it takes more consideration, and hence > the varied opinions.  Not having current running on the ground system > however is a serious safety issue. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 9/7/19 7:05 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> There doesn't seem to be a definitive and detailed consensus >> article/resource out there that addresses this topic. There are >> articles that dance around the subject, but little in terms of >> practical ways to accomplish grounding/binding with a supply side >> interconnection. AHJ's and engineers have all kinds of differing >> opinions. As an industry, it seems like we should have a definitive >> guide on the subject. >> >> Let's take a simple/common ungrounded inverter (or microinverter) >> system that is interconnected using supply side taps inside an >> existing load center with main disconnect. From the roof to the PV AC >> Combiner you have an appropriately sized EGC, and no GEC because a >> GEC is not required in this ungrounded system other than the existing >> premises GEC (and GE system). Let's assume the AHJ agrees that no GEC >> is required from the roof, which is a whole other subject that drive >> me nuts). Coming from the PV AC Combiner panel (if present) or >> Inverter you have two current carrying conductors L1 and L2 that are >> tapped on the service conductors. The neutral from the PV AC Combiner >> or inverter is landed on the existing neutral bus of the same main >> load center where the tap is made. >> >> Now what happens with the EGC that comes from the roof to the PV AC >> Combiner (or inverter)? >> >> What I have run into, and there may be other opinions, are the >> following assertions by AHJs: >> >> * Land the EGC on the PV AC Combiner and stop there. Bond neutral >> to ground. The neutral carries the fault current to the system >> bonding point in the main service panel. >> * Land the EGC in the PV AC Combiner and continue the EGC to the >> ground bar in the main service panel. Do not bond neutral to >> ground in the PC AC Combiner. >> * From the PV AC Combiner, install a GEC directly to the existing >> grounding electrode, and do not run an EGC to the main service panel. >> * Some combination of the above. >> >> >> Can anyone point to a clear and concise 3-line diagram that explains >> the acceptable options? Hopefully something that and AHJ will >> consider, like an IAEI article or NEC Handbook graphic. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Desing Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: lipmepobplbabdng.png Type: image/png Size: 152630 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Sep 9 09:33:53 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 06:33:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: References: <40f99941-3fa5-8ab1-d20f-48943b240066@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Jason - I'm curious about your statement on cutting off module connectors. Can you elaborate? Best, August Luminalt On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 7:52 AM Jason Fisher (STC) wrote: > Kent, I don’t see an answer to Brian’s question about the LG module’s > original connector configuration. We’re these modules actually factory > shipped with one H4 and one MC4 connector on different polarities? That > would be bizarre. > > Otherwise to back up Brian’s point about Intermatability, this is a UL > 6703 term that was added in NEC2020 to specifically address this question, > how can installers have confidence when they are asked to connect two > different manufacturer’s mating connectors. Bottom line is don’t connect > “mismatched” connectors, ever. Only connect different manufacturers, and/or > different models of mating connectors if at least one of the companies > produces proof of evaluation of that combination by an NRTL. Warning that > this is rare at this point (those wouldn’t therefore be “mismatched”). > > This is a very important issue so my advice to Wrenches is to keep firm > and don’t budge on this one. > > Also curious if you all still think you can’t cut off module connectors? > We need to correct that if so. > > Jason Fisher > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jerry Shafer > *Sent:* Thursday, September 5, 2019 11:25 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch > > Brian > Missing the point, yes they are compatible but as we have seen in the real > world there are issues. This can give module and micro inverter > manufacturers an out regarding failures and responsibility > Jerry > > On Thu, Sep 5, 2019, 1:41 AM Brian Mehalic wrote: > >> I don’t think “some white paper” is sufficient based on Code >> requirements, UL standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see >> 2020 NEC® 690.33(C) - now requiring intermatability. >> >> Brian >> >> On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l >> have had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to. >> Jerry >> >> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: >> >>> Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead >>> and a negative factory MC4 lead? >>> >>> I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched. >>> >>> Brian Mehalic >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >>> (520) 204-6639 >>> >>> Solar Energy International >>> http://www.solarenergy.org >>> >>> SEI Professional Services >>> http://www.seisolarpros.com >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to >>>> zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed >>>> in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. >>>> Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure >>>> enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter. >>>> Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module. In making >>>> the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this >>>> system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm >>>> convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. >>>> Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 >>>> connectors? >>>> >>>> Kent Osterberg >>>> Blue Mountain Solar >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bryan at pv-cables.com Mon Sep 9 11:46:22 2019 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 08:46:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: References: <40f99941-3fa5-8ab1-d20f-48943b240066@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: <006d01d56725$bb47bf70$31d73e50$@pv-cables.com> August, We have had numerous customers successfully reach out and been given revised warranties from module manufactures, when connectors which were on the module leads could not be procured. Cheers, Bryan Norkunas bryan at pv-cables.com Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140 PV-Cables Inc. 1155 Redway Drive PO Box 2562 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470 Please print only if necessary. NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Monday, September 09, 2019 6:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch Jason - I'm curious about your statement on cutting off module connectors. Can you elaborate? Best, August Luminalt On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 7:52 AM Jason Fisher (STC) wrote: Kent, I don’t see an answer to Brian’s question about the LG module’s original connector configuration. We’re these modules actually factory shipped with one H4 and one MC4 connector on different polarities? That would be bizarre. Otherwise to back up Brian’s point about Intermatability, this is a UL 6703 term that was added in NEC2020 to specifically address this question, how can installers have confidence when they are asked to connect two different manufacturer’s mating connectors. Bottom line is don’t connect “mismatched” connectors, ever. Only connect different manufacturers, and/or different models of mating connectors if at least one of the companies produces proof of evaluation of that combination by an NRTL. Warning that this is rare at this point (those wouldn’t therefore be “mismatched”). This is a very important issue so my advice to Wrenches is to keep firm and don’t budge on this one. Also curious if you all still think you can’t cut off module connectors? We need to correct that if so. Jason Fisher _____ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jerry Shafer Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 11:25 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch Brian Missing the point, yes they are compatible but as we have seen in the real world there are issues. This can give module and micro inverter manufacturers an out regarding failures and responsibility Jerry On Thu, Sep 5, 2019, 1:41 AM Brian Mehalic wrote: I don’t think “some white paper” is sufficient based on Code requirements, UL standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see 2020 NEC® 690.33(C) - now requiring intermatability. Brian On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l have had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to. Jerry On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead and a negative factory MC4 lead? I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg wrote: I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter. Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module. In making the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors? Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27561 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Sep 9 15:09:31 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 15:09:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount with cable anchors Message-ID: <006601d56742$1ce65fe0$56b31fa0$@glbcc.com> Hello Wrenches, We are looking at alternatives to pile driving and helical piles and concrete piers for small residential ground mount systems. I have just found Nuance Energy who makes a system that is basically set on the grade, and with cables and pivoting duckbill earth anchors and attached cables to secure it. Does anyone have any experience with this system specifically? Thanks in advance! Best regards, Glenn Burt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Sep 9 15:31:39 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 12:31:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount with cable anchors In-Reply-To: <006601d56742$1ce65fe0$56b31fa0$@glbcc.com> References: <006601d56742$1ce65fe0$56b31fa0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Wrenches/Glen I know nuance, they must be trailered or crained into position, leveled on site and cables are driven in and pre-loaded and cable locks installed. I have there products around California along with the predecessor. Delivery can be an issue and there team does the cables so that's something to consider too. They are fast to install, pre-layout the conduit and drop and very quickly you are up and running. We have also done there blasted version with concrete blocks or even just 36" pin anchors Jerry On Mon, Sep 9, 2019, 12:09 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > > > We are looking at alternatives to pile driving and helical piles and > concrete piers for small residential ground mount systems. > > I have just found Nuance Energy who makes a system that is basically set > on the grade, and with cables and pivoting duckbill earth anchors and > attached cables to secure it. > > Does anyone have any experience with this system specifically? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > Best regards, > > > > Glenn Burt > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Sep 9 19:16:39 2019 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 19:16:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount with cable anchors In-Reply-To: References: <006601d56742$1ce65fe0$56b31fa0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Glen, I just completed a three aray project. Call me @ 585-748-1870 and I'll tell you all about it. Christopher Schaefer On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 3:31 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches/Glen > I know nuance, they must be trailered or crained into position, leveled on > site and cables are driven in and pre-loaded and cable locks installed. I > have there products around California along with the predecessor. Delivery > can be an issue and there team does the cables so that's something to > consider too. They are fast to install, pre-layout the conduit and drop and > very quickly you are up and running. We have also done there blasted > version with concrete blocks or even just 36" pin anchors > Jerry > > On Mon, Sep 9, 2019, 12:09 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> >> >> We are looking at alternatives to pile driving and helical piles and >> concrete piers for small residential ground mount systems. >> >> I have just found Nuance Energy who makes a system that is basically set >> on the grade, and with cables and pivoting duckbill earth anchors and >> attached cables to secure it. >> >> Does anyone have any experience with this system specifically? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> >> >> Glenn Burt >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stc.jason at gmail.com Tue Sep 10 07:35:04 2019 From: stc.jason at gmail.com (Jason Fisher (STC)) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 11:35:04 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: <006d01d56725$bb47bf70$31d73e50$@pv-cables.com> References: <40f99941-3fa5-8ab1-d20f-48943b240066@coveoregon.com> , <006d01d56725$bb47bf70$31d73e50$@pv-cables.com> Message-ID: Hi August and all, In addition to modules with UL6703 mating connectors, UL1703 has always allowed modules to be listed with only leads (no connectors attached), or with no leads at all (old school J-box). Originally leads with connectors were added to modules in the field, connected to J-boxes with bolted terminals. Factory installed leads and connectors were added by module manufacturers for convenience, not because of any Code or UL requirement. There is no defensible reason for a module manufacturer to void their warranty if a connector is cut off and replaced by an appropriate connector or splice. The word appropriate is key here since there are some modules that use proprietary connectors and even cables (ie Ac modules). This issue is particularly important for any connector that has any damage. How could a module manufacturer suggest that a qualified person not be allowed to replace a damaged part like this? Would they replace the entire module for you? Assuming not, would they say the module should be tossed just because of this? There is no logic in the belief that replacing a connector should violate any warranty or listing, provided the person performing the work is qualified and they are using appropriate (typ. listed) parts. In fact I believe this should be part of a module’s normal maintenance procedures that should be documented in the module’s manual. If it was, that would remove any concerns over impacting the UL listing. Without this procedure being documented in the module manual, you need to get approval from the manufacturer, which some have provided in my experience. I believe if more folks kept asking this would become easier. All that said please buy good quality connectors and train your people to install them correctly, with the right (and calibrated) tools. You need good quality controls when making any electrical connection but our mating (“plug and play”) PV connectors are particularly important since they operate under such demanding conditions of duty cycle and environmental conditions. Also never mix manufacturers or types unless this combination is called out in the NRTL listing (“intermatability”). Cheers, Jason Fisher ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Bryan Norkunas Sent: Monday, September 9, 2019 11:46 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch August, We have had numerous customers successfully reach out and been given revised warranties from module manufactures, when connectors which were on the module leads could not be procured. Cheers, Bryan Norkunas bryan at pv-cables.com [Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140] PV-Cables Inc. 1155 Redway Drive PO Box 2562 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com [Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470] Please print only if necessary. NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Monday, September 09, 2019 6:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch Jason - I'm curious about your statement on cutting off module connectors. Can you elaborate? Best, August Luminalt On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 7:52 AM Jason Fisher (STC) > wrote: Kent, I don’t see an answer to Brian’s question about the LG module’s original connector configuration. We’re these modules actually factory shipped with one H4 and one MC4 connector on different polarities? That would be bizarre. Otherwise to back up Brian’s point about Intermatability, this is a UL 6703 term that was added in NEC2020 to specifically address this question, how can installers have confidence when they are asked to connect two different manufacturer’s mating connectors. Bottom line is don’t connect “mismatched” connectors, ever. Only connect different manufacturers, and/or different models of mating connectors if at least one of the companies produces proof of evaluation of that combination by an NRTL. Warning that this is rare at this point (those wouldn’t therefore be “mismatched”). This is a very important issue so my advice to Wrenches is to keep firm and don’t budge on this one. Also curious if you all still think you can’t cut off module connectors? We need to correct that if so. Jason Fisher ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jerry Shafer > Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 11:25 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch Brian Missing the point, yes they are compatible but as we have seen in the real world there are issues. This can give module and micro inverter manufacturers an out regarding failures and responsibility Jerry On Thu, Sep 5, 2019, 1:41 AM Brian Mehalic > wrote: I don’t think “some white paper” is sufficient based on Code requirements, UL standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see 2020 NEC® 690.33(C) - now requiring intermatability. Brian On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: Wrenches Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l have had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to. Jerry On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic > wrote: Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead and a negative factory MC4 lead? I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg > wrote: I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter. Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module. In making the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors? Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1367 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Sep 10 11:12:07 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:12:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31be1acd-4285-de55-bbee-ab1aeb5b42be@solarray.com> Has anyone noticed whether the location in the string or the array voltage makes a difference in the failures?  Is this more an issue at higher array voltages (>600 v) and at points in the array that the voltage would be highest?  We primarily do low voltage (<200 v)  off grid systems, and have not seen any failures.  But I'm wondering if we need to go back and start looking for issues, as I can't promise that every module connector matched the connectors we used, especially if as has been reported, some manus used different connectors for neg and pos. To further the problems, I've personally replaced what looked to be counterfeit connectors on cheap 12 v modules. The connecting metal was obviously inferior: very malleable and made such a poor connection that it created an open circuit.  Luckily this was at 20 v, and no melt down occurred. Also Luckily, I didn't provide the module. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/4/19 4:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Just to add, l had a lab and l did testing on connectors, we found > that most of the aec issues were under low light. This appeared to be > when iradiance was low and once the irads went up the issue was less > likely, this was because the Male-female contact was not tight enough > and under lower power it would arc instead of heating up and > expanding. I used a IR Camera but could see little change due to the > plastic. > Then l used an IV curve tester and shaded partially shaded the module > after several repeat testing the connectors got warm. I would suggest > making your own connector pull out tool to check the contact > pressures. This is where you may find your problem components. It > appears that early am testing had lower volts and the inverter pushed > the current up and causes the loose connector to fail due to the lower > volts. > This testing was done both in the field 1/2 meg and lab testing > results were very close. > The modules used for testing were Trina and the field inverters were > ABB and Fronius > Sorry for the long note > Jerry > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 2:52 PM Steven Lawrence > wrote: > > Everyone, > > Just to add to this, I've seen multiple melted connectors that > couldn't be traced to anything other than mixing manufacturers.  > I've seen some connectors where you can clearly seeing arcing on > the pin itself and nowhere else.  The crimps and the housing were > fine.  I've postulated it had to do with slightly different metals > expanding/contracting at different rates.  I've made it a very > hard rule at my company to never mix manufacturers of connectors.  > When we order modules, we specifically have the PO call out the > manufacturer of the connector (can't just be "MC4 compatible").  > Typically we order that same brand of connectors, but sometimes we > end up getting 6" jumpers made by a harness company (there are > some connectors out there that can only work with #12 wire. Can't > use them on #10 homeruns).  It's drastically cut down on the > number of melted connectors.  We've averaged maybe 1 or 2 on 6MW > projects over a year with this hard requirement versus 100+ we had > on a 1MW rooftop project that mixed multiple manufacturers. > > Steven Lawrence > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Sep 10 11:46:26 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 08:46:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: References: <40f99941-3fa5-8ab1-d20f-48943b240066@coveoregon.com> <006d01d56725$bb47bf70$31d73e50$@pv-cables.com> Message-ID: Hi Bryan and Jason - Thanks for the info on the module warranty lead and connector issue. I was still under the impression that cutting module leads *could* lead to voiding the manufacturer's warranty so we've avoided it. All that said, we haven't bumped into a clear cut case (at least for a long time) where a manufacturer-supplied connector was clearly faulty. I can't speak to other's experiences and certainly don't know what's up with Tesla's situation. Jason's comments about using proper techniques and tools to field assemble connectors are solid. It seems like a total slam dunk to make connectors up, but the bottom line is that installers can make mistakes (sometimes incomprehensible) when assembling connectors. These poorly assembled connectors can connect just well enough to run the system and test out okay, but then arc intermittently until complete connection failure occurs. I've seen this occur with arc fault detection enabled in the inverter which makes me question how effective arc fault detection really is. We work hard to keep training and QC up to assure that our connectors are made up properly. We're using way fewer MC4 connectors these days because we've primarily switched to AC modules for our residential installations. For commercial installations, we do a refresher training prior to starting the rooftop wiring. August Luminalt On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 7:26 AM Jason Fisher (STC) wrote: > Hi August and all, > > In addition to modules with UL6703 mating connectors, UL1703 has always > allowed modules to be listed with only leads (no connectors attached), or > with no leads at all (old school J-box). Originally leads with connectors > were added to modules in the field, connected to J-boxes with bolted > terminals. Factory installed leads and connectors were added by module > manufacturers for convenience, not because of any Code or UL requirement. > There is no defensible reason for a module manufacturer to void their > warranty if a connector is cut off and replaced by an appropriate connector > or splice. The word appropriate is key here since there are some modules > that use proprietary connectors and even cables (ie Ac modules). > > This issue is particularly important for any connector that has any > damage. How could a module manufacturer suggest that a qualified person not > be allowed to replace a damaged part like this? Would they replace the > entire module for you? Assuming not, would they say the module should be > tossed just because of this? There is no logic in the belief that replacing > a connector should violate any warranty or listing, provided the person > performing the work is qualified and they are using appropriate (typ. > listed) parts. In fact I believe this should be part of a module’s normal > maintenance procedures that should be documented in the module’s manual. If > it was, that would remove any concerns over impacting the UL listing. > Without this procedure being documented in the module manual, you need to > get approval from the manufacturer, which some have provided in my > experience. I believe if more folks kept asking this would become easier. > > All that said please buy good quality connectors and train your people to > install them correctly, with the right (and calibrated) tools. You need > good quality controls when making any electrical connection but our mating > (“plug and play”) PV connectors are particularly important since they > operate under such demanding conditions of duty cycle and environmental > conditions. Also never mix manufacturers or types unless this combination > is called out in the NRTL listing (“intermatability”). > > Cheers, > > Jason Fisher > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Bryan Norkunas > *Sent:* Monday, September 9, 2019 11:46 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch > > > August, > > > > We have had numerous customers successfully reach out and been given > revised warranties from module manufactures, when connectors which were on > the module leads could not be procured. > > > > Cheers, > > > > *Bryan Norkunas* > > bryan at pv-cables.com > > > > [image: Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140] > > *PV-Cables Inc.* > > 1155 Redway Drive > > PO Box 2562 > > Redway, CA 95560 > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > > > [image: Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470] Please > print only if necessary. > > > > NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the > intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged > information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is > prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the > sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original > message. > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *August Goers > *Sent:* Monday, September 09, 2019 6:34 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch > > > > Jason - I'm curious about your statement on cutting off module connectors. > Can you elaborate? > > > > Best, > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 7:52 AM Jason Fisher (STC) > wrote: > > Kent, I don’t see an answer to Brian’s question about the LG module’s > original connector configuration. We’re these modules actually factory > shipped with one H4 and one MC4 connector on different polarities? That > would be bizarre. > > > > Otherwise to back up Brian’s point about Intermatability, this is a UL > 6703 term that was added in NEC2020 to specifically address this question, > how can installers have confidence when they are asked to connect two > different manufacturer’s mating connectors. Bottom line is don’t connect > “mismatched” connectors, ever. Only connect different manufacturers, and/or > different models of mating connectors if at least one of the companies > produces proof of evaluation of that combination by an NRTL. Warning that > this is rare at this point (those wouldn’t therefore be “mismatched”). > > > > This is a very important issue so my advice to Wrenches is to keep firm > and don’t budge on this one. > > > > Also curious if you all still think you can’t cut off module connectors? > We need to correct that if so. > > > > Jason Fisher > ------------------------------ > > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jerry Shafer > *Sent:* Thursday, September 5, 2019 11:25 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch > > > > Brian > > Missing the point, yes they are compatible but as we have seen in the real > world there are issues. This can give module and micro inverter > manufacturers an out regarding failures and responsibility > > Jerry > > > > On Thu, Sep 5, 2019, 1:41 AM Brian Mehalic wrote: > > I don’t think “some white paper” is sufficient based on Code requirements, > UL standards (6703), and verified field failures. Also see 2020 NEC® > 690.33(C) - now requiring intermatability. > > Brian > > > On Sep 4, 2019, at 2:06 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > > Per some white papers connectors are interchangeable, this being said l > have had arc issues as a result. FYI there are knock-offs out there to. > > Jerry > > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 1:42 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: > > Are you saying each module has, for example, a positive factory H4 lead > and a negative factory MC4 lead? > > > > I definitely know of H4 problems, both mated with H4s and mismatched. > > > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > > (520) 204-6639 > > > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > > > SEI Professional Services > > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 1:22 PM Kent Osterberg wrote: > > I've recently been looking for the cause of random power drop offs to > zero in an Enphase M215 system with LG260 PV module that was installed > in 2013. Just one inverter in a system of fourteen has been doing this. > Enphase suggested moving the inverter to a different PV module and sure > enough doing that proved the problem wasn't with the inverter. > Intermittent zero output was being caused by the PV module. In making > the inverter/module change I found that all the LG 260 modules in this > system have one MC4 connector and one H4 connector. At present I'm > convinced the mismatched connector is the actual cause of the problem. > Anyone else ever notice find PV modules with mixed MC4 and H4 connectors? > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27561 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Sep 10 14:21:37 2019 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 12:21:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount with cable anchors In-Reply-To: References: <006601d56742$1ce65fe0$56b31fa0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Glenn, I've installed an 80+kW and a couple 10+kW systems using this Nuance system. They are assembled fairly quickly and the legs are adjustable for uneven ground, which is nice. The ease of driving the cable anchors into the ground will, of course, depend on the site. Luckily, i had no issue with rocks and the only real issue i had driving the anchors was the driving rod separating once or twice (due to the length of anchors for our location, we needed a 2-piece driving rod). Testing the (pull-out strength) anchors is a bit cumbersome and we have not come up with a way of re-testing the front ones once the mods are installed. Make sure you use a scale that has a "max pull" feature to hold the max pull-out strength otherwise the numbers are constantly moving and difficult to read. Hopefully they have added leg braces to the front legs where they are needed more so than just on the back legs. If they haven't, then i suggest requesting them as the front legs *will* buckle under high wind from the north. I'm not convinced that they are a solid ground mount solution as the cable-anchor system does allow for some movement so they will allow for the full array/rack to shift and move, as i have seen on the 80kW system. Benn Kilburn CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc Employee Owner 14515 - 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 Direct: 780-784-1706 | Office: 780-474-8992 *www.skyfireenergy.com * On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 1:31 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches/Glen > I know nuance, they must be trailered or crained into position, leveled on > site and cables are driven in and pre-loaded and cable locks installed. I > have there products around California along with the predecessor. Delivery > can be an issue and there team does the cables so that's something to > consider too. They are fast to install, pre-layout the conduit and drop and > very quickly you are up and running. We have also done there blasted > version with concrete blocks or even just 36" pin anchors > Jerry > > On Mon, Sep 9, 2019, 12:09 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> >> >> We are looking at alternatives to pile driving and helical piles and >> concrete piers for small residential ground mount systems. >> >> I have just found Nuance Energy who makes a system that is basically set >> on the grade, and with cables and pivoting duckbill earth anchors and >> attached cables to secure it. >> >> Does anyone have any experience with this system specifically? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> >> >> Glenn Burt >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Tue Sep 10 18:51:22 2019 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 15:51:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California Photovoltaic Requirement 1/1/2020 In-Reply-To: References: <006601d56742$1ce65fe0$56b31fa0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <0LpMWp-1ie9b42RkL-00f1fh@mrelay.perfora.net> I had a question about the new law I couldn’t answer. Is the PV requirement effective when the permit is submitted, or when is it pulled (i.e. approved) for new residential construction or when the permit is finaled by all parties, or when the Certificate of Occupancy is issued, or when the residential building is sold? I can imagine a situation where the permit is pulled in May 1, 2019 and the home is sold in December 31, 2019. Versus Permit is pulled in May 1, 2019 and the home is sold in January 1, 2020. Is there some certification at closing that the home meets the new law? - Peter Peter T. Parrish California Solar Engineering 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at calsolareng.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Sep 10 20:10:53 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:10:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Digital refractometers Message-ID: Friends: After three failed units I have given up on the Veegee MDX602. What brand of digital refractometer would any of you recommend? Thanks in advance! William Miller From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Sep 11 17:41:49 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 17:41:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances Message-ID: In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any ideas? I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Wed Sep 11 17:50:35 2019 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 14:50:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B7D136F-56A0-42F2-B109-F09196892309@gmail.com> Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable time delay relays. Stagger the timing. > On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any ideas? > > I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)? > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Sep 11 18:24:18 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 18:24:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances In-Reply-To: <3B7D136F-56A0-42F2-B109-F09196892309@gmail.com> References: <3B7D136F-56A0-42F2-B109-F09196892309@gmail.com> Message-ID: That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know" when the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX relay or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think it will be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but maybe. I guess the question is how to activate the time delay any time the ATS switches over. That would be the easiest solution maybe. I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over 100A @ 240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all those motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!) Jason On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar wrote: > Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable time > delay relays. Stagger the timing. > > On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer > from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup > load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z > large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air > conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call > to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any > ideas? > > I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, > keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's > going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of > ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this > appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)? > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Wed Sep 11 18:39:07 2019 From: solar1online at charter.net (solar1online at charter.net) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 17:39:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Digital Refractometers Message-ID: <5bfdfef8b81c9312e12450dcc2290f8908a54051@> Hi William, The old school optical (analog) version is too time consuming for your needs? If not Misco makes two models oC or oF The oF model is 7084VP. The actual manufacturing of the unit is done by Reichert. Reichert makes multiple digital refractometers, hopefully of the same quality as the Misco unit. Best wishes, Bill LoeschSolar 19905 Vasel DriveSaint Louis, MO 63123314 631 1094 -----------------------------------------From: re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Sent: Wednesday September 11 2019 4:03:40PM Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 12, Issue 262 Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20190910/217e9a0e/attachment-0001.html> /> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:10:53 -0700 From: William Miller To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Digital refractometers Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Friends: After three failed units I have given up on the Veegee MDX602. What brand of digital refractometer would any of you recommend? Thanks in advance! William Miller ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 12, Issue 262 ******************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 11 18:42:09 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 16:42:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances In-Reply-To: References: <3B7D136F-56A0-42F2-B109-F09196892309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56AC8C4F-396B-493D-ACF6-57F4FED4E278@gmail.com> You’ve got to plan on them all starting at once anyway. You can’t expect that it’ll never happen. And really how do you prevent it. The refrigerators and AC’s are on all the time waiting for the thermostat to activate. And it’s not good to turn a working fridge on/off especially is the compressor is running. Bigger loads, bigger inverters, bigger dollars. Jay > On Sep 11, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know" when the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX relay or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think it will be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but maybe. I guess the question is how to activate the time delay any time the ATS switches over. That would be the easiest solution maybe. > > I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over 100A @ 240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all those motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!) > > Jason > > > >> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar wrote: >> Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable time delay relays. Stagger the timing. >> >>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> >>> In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any ideas? >>> >>> I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)? >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Sep 11 18:04:55 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 15:04:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, I would use soft start on everything that I can. The mini-split already is soft start. There is a device that adds soft start to appliances/loads below. https://www.raymondinnovations.com/ [1] In the future Schneider and I assume Outback will have API's for their electronics. Schneider has promised me this and with their Gateway, with a station mode wifi built-in it will be doable. Simple IFTTT routines that you set-up will do this and more. It can be set-up with voltage and if clouds come-in, it shut down certain loads. Run loads during sun hours etc. Kind of the old-school solenoids and AUX output control without any wiring. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [3] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 17:41:49 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any ideas? I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -- Links: ------ [1] https://www.raymondinnovations.com/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Sep 11 18:37:07 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 15:37:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances In-Reply-To: References: <3B7D136F-56A0-42F2-B109-F09196892309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6bac0b52460ac297933205f3ccfcf2b9@127.0.0.1> Jason, You may want XW pro. It is not much more than XW+ and will have a better support for what you want in your microgrid. It also has twice the warranty over xw+. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 18:24:18 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know" when the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX relay or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think it will be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but maybe. I guess the question is how to activate the time delay any time the ATS switches over. That would be the easiest solution maybe. I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over 100A @ 240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all those motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!) Jason On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar wrote: Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable time delay relays. Stagger the timing. On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any ideas? I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [12] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:mjmorningstar at gmail.com [4] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Wed Sep 11 21:09:22 2019 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 01:09:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California Photovoltaic Requirement 1/1/2020 In-Reply-To: <0LpMWp-1ie9b42RkL-00f1fh@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <006601d56742$1ce65fe0$56b31fa0$@glbcc.com> , <0LpMWp-1ie9b42RkL-00f1fh@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: in my situation (Nevada County AHJ) they use the date (code cycle) when any review is completed and the permit is issued. . Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Peter Parrish Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 3:51:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] California Photovoltaic Requirement 1/1/2020 I had a question about the new law I couldn’t answer. Is the PV requirement effective when the permit is submitted, or when is it pulled (i.e. approved) for new residential construction or when the permit is finaled by all parties, or when the Certificate of Occupancy is issued, or when the residential building is sold? I can imagine a situation where the permit is pulled in May 1, 2019 and the home is sold in December 31, 2019. Versus Permit is pulled in May 1, 2019 and the home is sold in January 1, 2020. Is there some certification at closing that the home meets the new law? * Peter Peter T. Parrish California Solar Engineering 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at calsolareng.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Sep 11 22:02:50 2019 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 22:02:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO Failure modes. In-Reply-To: <0LpMWp-1ie9b42RkL-00f1fh@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <006601d56742$1ce65fe0$56b31fa0$@glbcc.com> <0LpMWp-1ie9b42RkL-00f1fh@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: Has anyone had any problems with any of the popular Lithium Ferro Phosphate batteries other than getting the voltage settings right. Just now cleaning up the mess of 3 customers finding their Aquion batteries failing and having to replace them. I have installed two systems with Simpliphi and one with Fortress two more Fortress 10.2 pending. Are their any failure modes reported. Have any of you installed any LiFePO batteries with any performance or quality issues, shipping damage or anything else that I should be aware of before installing many more. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service 200 West Road N Chittenden, VT 05763 John.blittersdorf at gmail.com 802-770-8625 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Sep 11 22:08:11 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 19:08:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO Failure modes. In-Reply-To: References: <006601d56742$1ce65fe0$56b31fa0$@glbcc.com> <0LpMWp-1ie9b42RkL-00f1fh@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: You might want to look at the Blue planet Energy Battery Jerry On Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 7:03 PM John Blittersdorf wrote: > > Has anyone had any problems with any of the popular Lithium Ferro > Phosphate batteries other than getting the voltage settings right. > Just now cleaning up the mess of 3 customers finding their Aquion > batteries failing and having to replace them. I have installed two systems > with Simpliphi and one with Fortress two more Fortress 10.2 pending. Are > their any failure modes reported. Have any of you installed any LiFePO > batteries with any performance or quality issues, shipping damage or > anything else that I should be aware of before installing many more. > > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service > 200 West Road > N Chittenden, VT 05763 > > John.blittersdorf at gmail.com > 802-770-8625 > >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Sep 12 09:19:19 2019 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 09:19:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Supply Side Connections: Grounding In-Reply-To: <6cbbf824-cdd8-2618-0070-ea8203a24d0b@entech-engineering.com> References: <9c03c339-a7d8-e8ce-49c3-c0b963f9a216@solarray.com> <6cbbf824-cdd8-2618-0070-ea8203a24d0b@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: So here in politically incorrect NY the utility providers no longer want their kwh meter to have a ground in it. It was explained that on aging systems the ground (bare wire) created more problems for them. So I've been informed by the utilities and 3rd party inspectors to treat our PV systems on a "supply side" connection as a "separately derived" system. So I install a ground rod at or near the PV Supply Side disconnect and then use an irreversible crimp. Thus my ground is not connected to the home owners SEP, just like the utility does not have a ground attached to the SEP either. Now in theory this makes sense to me. The way it has been explained is that the home has its own grounding system. I have two projects that I've completed this season where the utility transformer and kwh meter are 200 plus feet away from the home, so to run a separate ground to the home would be silly. Christopher On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 10:11 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > I researched some articles on this before replying but they are too out of > date to be of much help. > > This is my two cents worth. > > The pv system EGC needs to be connected to the grounding busbar system. > > The pv system EGC also needs to be irreversibly connected to the GEC. > > The system neutral and the ECG need to be bonded, usually that is at the > Supply Side Disconnect. > > If you have a ac combiner upstream, it should just be grounded, not > bonded. If a production meter is involved, that too, should be grounded, > not bonded. Below is a graphic from Mike Holt with some edits. Chris > > > On 9/7/2019 11:55 AM, Ray wrote: > > I've seen all 3 options. This question actually comes up in the wiring > of sub panels, and out buildings as well. I find improperly bonded wiring > all the time that allows current to flow on the ground, because Neutral was > bonded at both ends, with an EGC also run in parallel(option 2 done > incorrectly). This is a big No No, and can cause voltages on exposed > metal. Next, my understanding is that option 1 is no longer allowed on a > single service, although that is how all grid connected houses are wired to > the grid and each other with separate meters. (sorry I'm out of the > office, so I don't have a code reference) > > As far as different opinions from different AHJs, I've had inspectors > switch mid project, with the first inspector saying option 2 was ok, then > the 2nd inspector required us to later run a GEC back to the GE after. On > option 3, you would always want an EGC running with the conductors. I > have occasionally then not connected that EGC at one end, if we also had > the separate GEC running back to the GE, to avoid a "lightning loop". > Having 2 ground conductors running to the same point along different paths > allows lightning to induce a current in the wiring through the loop that is > created. > > It really does get more complicated, when you also consider the grounding > system's secondary purpose of providing lightning protection. I have a > great book from Polyphasor on grounding for lightning protection that is a > whole nother world beyond NEC. They had grounding systems with dozens of > GEs (for communications towers) but everything was attached in a star > pattern to avoid any lightning loops. Its actually possible to meet both > NEC and lightning protection requirements, but it takes more consideration, > and hence the varied opinions. Not having current running on the ground > system however is a serious safety issue. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/7/19 7:05 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > There doesn't seem to be a definitive and detailed consensus > article/resource out there that addresses this topic. There are articles > that dance around the subject, but little in terms of practical ways to > accomplish grounding/binding with a supply side interconnection. AHJ's and > engineers have all kinds of differing opinions. As an industry, it seems > like we should have a definitive guide on the subject. > > Let's take a simple/common ungrounded inverter (or microinverter) system > that is interconnected using supply side taps inside an existing load > center with main disconnect. From the roof to the PV AC Combiner you have > an appropriately sized EGC, and no GEC because a GEC is not required in > this ungrounded system other than the existing premises GEC (and GE > system). Let's assume the AHJ agrees that no GEC is required from the roof, > which is a whole other subject that drive me nuts). Coming from the PV AC > Combiner panel (if present) or Inverter you have two current carrying > conductors L1 and L2 that are tapped on the service conductors. The neutral > from the PV AC Combiner or inverter is landed on the existing neutral bus > of the same main load center where the tap is made. > > Now what happens with the EGC that comes from the roof to the PV AC > Combiner (or inverter)? > > What I have run into, and there may be other opinions, are the following > assertions by AHJs: > > - Land the EGC on the PV AC Combiner and stop there. Bond neutral to > ground. The neutral carries the fault current to the system bonding point > in the main service panel. > - Land the EGC in the PV AC Combiner and continue the EGC to the > ground bar in the main service panel. Do not bond neutral to ground in the > PC AC Combiner. > - From the PV AC Combiner, install a GEC directly to the existing > grounding electrode, and do not run an EGC to the main service panel. > - Some combination of the above. > > > Can anyone point to a clear and concise 3-line diagram that explains the > acceptable options? Hopefully something that and AHJ will consider, like an > IAEI article or NEC Handbook graphic. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Desing Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: lipmepobplbabdng.png Type: image/png Size: 152630 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 11:14:08 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 09:14:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances In-Reply-To: <56AC8C4F-396B-493D-ACF6-57F4FED4E278@gmail.com> References: <3B7D136F-56A0-42F2-B109-F09196892309@gmail.com> <56AC8C4F-396B-493D-ACF6-57F4FED4E278@gmail.com> Message-ID: Generac has a pretty cool device that really needs to get emulated in the solar industry called the smart management module. It's a standalone smart relay that can be programmed via dip switches to do just this, bring devices on line in stages and drop them if the generator is getting overloaded. I believe it works from frequency dip but Im not sure. The nice thing about it is that it does not require any signal wiring from generator or ATS to do this, its just monitoring line voltage. This is really designed for grid/generator application but it would be really helpful for applications like this. Maybe you could use a home automation system to do this? Sonnen used to do this via Z-wave (I think) but I don't know the details of this. On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 8:11 PM Jay wrote: > You’ve got to plan on them all starting at once anyway. You can’t expect > that it’ll never happen. > > And really how do you prevent it. The refrigerators and AC’s are on all > the time waiting for the thermostat to activate. And it’s not good to turn > a working fridge on/off especially is the compressor is running. > > Bigger loads, bigger inverters, bigger dollars. > > Jay > > > > On Sep 11, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know" when > the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX relay > or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think it will > be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but maybe. I > guess the question is how to activate the time delay any time the ATS > switches over. That would be the easiest solution maybe. > > I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over 100A @ > 240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all those > motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!) > > Jason > > > > On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar < > mjmorningstar at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable >> time delay relays. Stagger the timing. >> >> On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer >> from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup >> load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z >> large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air >> conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call >> to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any >> ideas? >> >> I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, >> keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's >> going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of >> ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this >> appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)? >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 11:38:13 2019 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 11:38:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances In-Reply-To: References: <3B7D136F-56A0-42F2-B109-F09196892309@gmail.com> <56AC8C4F-396B-493D-ACF6-57F4FED4E278@gmail.com> Message-ID: The Generac SMM senses the generator, probably won't work for solar. It's easy to do a contactor with time delay relay, those devices are available off the shelf. As long as power goes off then back on, the time delay unit will back off for the set time. You can probably find a device that is an integrated delay start. On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 11:14 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Generac has a pretty cool device that really needs to get emulated in the > solar industry called the smart management module. It's a standalone smart > relay that can be programmed via dip switches to do just this, bring > devices on line in stages and drop them if the generator is getting > overloaded. I believe it works from frequency dip but Im not sure. The > nice thing about it is that it does not require any signal wiring from > generator or ATS to do this, its just monitoring line voltage. This is > really designed for grid/generator application but it would be really > helpful for applications like this. Maybe you could use a home automation > system to do this? Sonnen used to do this via Z-wave (I think) but I don't > know the details of this. > > > On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 8:11 PM Jay wrote: > >> You’ve got to plan on them all starting at once anyway. You can’t expect >> that it’ll never happen. >> >> And really how do you prevent it. The refrigerators and AC’s are on all >> the time waiting for the thermostat to activate. And it’s not good to turn >> a working fridge on/off especially is the compressor is running. >> >> Bigger loads, bigger inverters, bigger dollars. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Sep 11, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know" when >> the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX relay >> or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think it will >> be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but maybe. I >> guess the question is how to activate the time delay any time the ATS >> switches over. That would be the easiest solution maybe. >> >> I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over >> 100A @ 240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all >> those motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!) >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar < >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable >>> time delay relays. Stagger the timing. >>> >>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>> In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer >>> from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup >>> load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z >>> large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air >>> conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call >>> to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any >>> ideas? >>> >>> I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, >>> keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's >>> going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of >>> ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this >>> appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)? >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 11:53:08 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 08:53:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Outback inverters can do that, start and stop the genny, start up if loads are above a programmed setting. I have used Lutron for a similar application that turned one AC on at a time. You can use the inverter to turn off load(s) if they is/are to high, it's all programable Jerry On Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 2:42 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer > from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup > load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z > large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air > conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call > to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any > ideas? > > I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, > keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's > going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of > ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this > appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)? > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Sep 12 12:32:03 2019 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:32:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, Given all of the equipment you're looking at I'd consider using a small shoe box sized PLC. Relays and timers are good but the PLC will give you a lot more flexibility in a very small package and will be able to sense when the ATS switch transfers. I enjoy using the ASCO unit as it offers dry contacts. As for the PLC I'd consider Opto 22 but any PLC will do. Just gotta be careful as to some require you buy programming tools. Christopher On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 11:54 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Outback inverters can do that, start and stop the genny, start up if loads > are above a programmed setting. I have used Lutron for a similar > application that turned one AC on at a time. You can use the inverter to > turn off load(s) if they is/are to high, it's all programable > Jerry > > On Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 2:42 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer >> from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup >> load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z >> large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air >> conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call >> to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any >> ideas? >> >> I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, >> keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's >> going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of >> ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this >> appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)? >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Sep 12 13:18:13 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 10:18:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <928b328b9e54904ad64f6097390779d7@127.0.0.1> Which models do you like from ASCO Christopher? Something like this below? https://www.ascopower.com/us/en/product-range-presentation/66110-asco-series-185-power-transfer-switch/ [1] Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [3] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:32:03 -0400, Chris Schaefer wrote: Jason, Given all of the equipment you're looking at I'd consider using a small shoe box sized PLC. Relays and timers are good but the PLC will give you a lot more flexibility in a very small package and will be able to sense when the ATS switch transfers. I enjoy using the ASCO unit as it offers dry contacts. As for the PLC I'd consider Opto 22 but any PLC will do. Just gotta be careful as to some require you buy programming tools. Christopher On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 11:54 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: Outback inverters can do that, start and stop the genny, start up if loads are above a programmed setting. I have used Lutron for a similar application that turned one AC on at a time. You can use the inverter to turn off load(s) if they is/are to high, it's all programable Jerry On Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 2:42 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any ideas? I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] List rules color: #1f497d;">Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [17] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [18]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -- Links: ------ [1] https://www.ascopower.com/us/en/product-range-presentation/66110-asco-series-185-power-transfer-switch/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [5] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] http://webmail.sti.net/http:www.solarandwindfx.com [17] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [18] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Sep 12 17:39:13 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 17:39:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances In-Reply-To: <56AC8C4F-396B-493D-ACF6-57F4FED4E278@gmail.com> References: <3B7D136F-56A0-42F2-B109-F09196892309@gmail.com> <56AC8C4F-396B-493D-ACF6-57F4FED4E278@gmail.com> Message-ID: I definitely understand that I can't prevent it 100%, but I can surely mitigate the likelihood. It's highly unlikely that all 10 refrigerators will all start simultaneously based on temperature with the well pump and two air conditioners except when power is first applied. Moreso than the ATS changeover, I'm concerned about scenarios where everything is completely off at the property and the inverter breakers are flipped on. Then I'm essentially guaranteed I'll have 15 motors all trying to start at the same time. I'm planning 27-32kW of capacity, which may well be enough depending on how gentle the HVAC units start, but I want to have a strategy in case things don't go as planned. I was thinking that the ATS would be a good strategy to trigger time delays because it would be implemented whether it was a startup from no power source or during power source transfer. The challenge here is that more than half of these loads will be used maybe a few weeks a year. I'm tasked with designing a system that will operate efficiently with both high and low occupancy levels, and it's only responsible of me to investigate ways to reduce the budget requirement for the total system. Money is probably not a factor here, but bigger, bigger, bigger also means bigger headaches when you have 8 inverters to maintain rather than 6 or 4. I do have some other thoughts like ensuring the well pump doesn't turn on while the Air Conditioning is running. Since it's on a float switch with ample at-grade storage, I don't really care if it runs only at periods of light load. You do have a point about turning refrigerators on and off by switching power. I might look into ways to cut the compressor using controls in the refrigerators instead. That will be a conversation with Sub-Z to see if they care that power is cycled during operation. On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 8:16 PM Jay wrote: > You’ve got to plan on them all starting at once anyway. You can’t expect > that it’ll never happen. > > And really how do you prevent it. The refrigerators and AC’s are on all > the time waiting for the thermostat to activate. And it’s not good to turn > a working fridge on/off especially is the compressor is running. > > Bigger loads, bigger inverters, bigger dollars. > > Jay > > > > On Sep 11, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know" when > the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX relay > or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think it will > be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but maybe. I > guess the question is how to activate the time delay any time the ATS > switches over. That would be the easiest solution maybe. > > I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over 100A @ > 240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all those > motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!) > > Jason > > > > On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar < > mjmorningstar at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable >> time delay relays. Stagger the timing. >> >> On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer >> from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup >> load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z >> large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air >> conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call >> to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any >> ideas? >> >> I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, >> keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's >> going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of >> ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this >> appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)? >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Sep 12 18:04:05 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 15:04:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances In-Reply-To: References: <3B7D136F-56A0-42F2-B109-F09196892309@gmail.com> <56AC8C4F-396B-493D-ACF6-57F4FED4E278@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4088a9543bd42545c111532a8b6e2de4@127.0.0.1> Jason, any chance of one of the "help" being made knowledgeable to manage this? In a way this is what I do for my offgrid clients. If they won't, I walk away because it is just to complicated at this stage in RE. Hoping it will change! I get them up to speed on managing loads and understanding what is going on with the power. This saves me from the headache. Explain that it can save them quite a bit of money also. I do not envy you and income is important. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 17:39:13 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I definitely understand that I can't prevent it 100%, but I can surely mitigate the likelihood. It's highly unlikely that all 10 refrigerators will all start simultaneously based on temperature with the well pump and two air conditioners except when power is first applied. Moreso than the ATS changeover, I'm concerned about scenarios where everything is completely off at the property and the inverter breakers are flipped on. Then I'm essentially guaranteed I'll have 15 motors all trying to start at the same time. I'm planning 27-32kW of capacity, which may well be enough depending on how gentle the HVAC units start, but I want to have a strategy in case things don't go as planned. I was thinking that the ATS would be a good strategy to trigger time delays because it would be implemented whether it was a startup from no power source or during power source transfer. The challenge here is that more than half of these loads will be used maybe a few weeks a year. I'm tasked with designing a system that will operate efficiently with both high and low occupancy levels, and it's only responsible of me to investigate ways to reduce the budget requirement for the total system. Money is probably not a factor here, but bigger, bigger, bigger also means bigger headaches when you have 8 inverters to maintain rather than 6 or 4. I do have some other thoughts like ensuring the well pump doesn't turn on while the Air Conditioning is running. Since it's on a float switch with ample at-grade storage, I don't really care if it runs only at periods of light load. You do have a point about turning refrigerators on and off by switching power. I might look into ways to cut the compressor using controls in the refrigerators instead. That will be a conversation with Sub-Z to see if they care that power is cycled during operation. On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 8:16 PM Jay wrote: You've got to plan on them all starting at once anyway. You can't expect that it'll never happen. And really how do you prevent it. The refrigerators and AC's are on all the time waiting for the thermostat to activate. And it's not good to turn a working fridge on/off especially is the compressor is running. Bigger loads, bigger inverters, bigger dollars. Jay On Sep 11, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know" when the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX relay or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think it will be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but maybe. I guess the question is how to activate the time delay any time the ATS switches over. That would be the easiest solution maybe. I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over 100A @ 240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all those motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!) Jason On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar wrote: Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable time delay relays. Stagger the timing. On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any ideas? I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] List rules border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [19] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [21] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [22] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [23] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [24] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [25] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [26] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [4] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [5] mailto:mjmorningstar at gmail.com [6] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [20] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [21] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [22] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [23] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [24] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [25] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [26] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 21:52:26 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 18:52:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances In-Reply-To: <4088a9543bd42545c111532a8b6e2de4@127.0.0.1> References: <3B7D136F-56A0-42F2-B109-F09196892309@gmail.com> <56AC8C4F-396B-493D-ACF6-57F4FED4E278@gmail.com> <4088a9543bd42545c111532a8b6e2de4@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: We don’t know how you have the AC distribution set up. If you have a main that then distributes to sub panels, how about relays on delay timers that go to each sub. 3-5 seconds would be more than enough. Or mechanical discos with simple instructions of delay between each. But yea people have to read and comprehend and it’s probably dark so maybe the delay timers. Let us know what you end up using Jay > On Sep 12, 2019, at 3:04 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Jason, any chance of one of the "help" being made knowledgeable to manage this? In a way this is what I do for my offgrid clients. If they won't, I walk away because it is just to complicated at this stage in RE. Hoping it will change! > > I get them up to speed on managing loads and understanding what is going on with the power. This saves me from the headache. Explain that it can save them quite a bit of money also. I do not envy you and income is important. Good Luck! > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 >> On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 17:39:13 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> >> I definitely understand that I can't prevent it 100%, but I can surely mitigate the likelihood. It's highly unlikely that all 10 refrigerators will all start simultaneously based on temperature with the well pump and two air conditioners except when power is first applied. Moreso than the ATS changeover, I'm concerned about scenarios where everything is completely off at the property and the inverter breakers are flipped on. Then I'm essentially guaranteed I'll have 15 motors all trying to start at the same time. I'm planning 27-32kW of capacity, which may well be enough depending on how gentle the HVAC units start, but I want to have a strategy in case things don't go as planned. >> >> I was thinking that the ATS would be a good strategy to trigger time delays because it would be implemented whether it was a startup from no power source or during power source transfer. >> >> The challenge here is that more than half of these loads will be used maybe a few weeks a year. I'm tasked with designing a system that will operate efficiently with both high and low occupancy levels, and it's only responsible of me to investigate ways to reduce the budget requirement for the total system. Money is probably not a factor here, but bigger, bigger, bigger also means bigger headaches when you have 8 inverters to maintain rather than 6 or 4. >> >> I do have some other thoughts like ensuring the well pump doesn't turn on while the Air Conditioning is running. Since it's on a float switch with ample at-grade storage, I don't really care if it runs only at periods of light load. >> >> You do have a point about turning refrigerators on and off by switching power. I might look into ways to cut the compressor using controls in the refrigerators instead. That will be a conversation with Sub-Z to see if they care that power is cycled during operation. >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 8:16 PM Jay wrote: >>> >>> You've got to plan on them all starting at once anyway. You can't expect that it'll never happen. >>> >>> And really how do you prevent it. The refrigerators and AC's are on all the time waiting for the thermostat to activate. And it's not good to turn a working fridge on/off especially is the compressor is running. >>> >>> Bigger loads, bigger inverters, bigger dollars. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> >>>> That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know" when the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX relay or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think it will be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but maybe. I guess the question is how to activate the time delay any time the ATS switches over. That would be the easiest solution maybe. >>>> >>>> I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over 100A @ 240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all those motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!) >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable time delay relays. Stagger the timing. >>>>> >>>>>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any ideas? >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 23:07:11 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 23:07:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway Message-ID: I have a net metered battery backup Dual stack XW Pro with a Conext Gateway. The Gateway is communicating on the Xanbus netwark and I'm able to read and write to the inverters through the gateway as long as I'm connected to it through the local area network. I was also able to register the Gateway on the Insight2 website which has retained some of the iniial data. However, shortly thereafter the gateway seems to have stopped communicating with the insight server, or at least the server has stopped showing the gateway as connected. I know there is internet access because everything else on the LAN has connectivity. Schneider support not only has been having ridiculously impossible wait times, but when I do get through to them, they are of no help with this issue. I've made my way to tier 3 support, but that has not helped in this matter. Does anyone know if there is a trick or some reason why the gateway would stop communicating out to the Insight2 server. I've updated all the firmware of the schneider products. This has allowed me to actually have the gateway start working properly, based on the most recent firmware update this past week. I've really been happy with the XW+ inverters as well as this relatively new communication and remote programming capability that the gateway promises. I would like to continue to use them, however, the difficulty of getting to Tech Support, no less someone that can actually help is starting to affect my decision process. Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks, Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 23:49:04 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 20:49:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie Was the box set up as DHCP or static IP, if it was static there might be something that had that same IP address. Also if its static the IP may not be close enough to find a connection, by close l mean IP range. If it has a wireless connection it might be stuck on another network. Some systems have a default IP and a seperate network IP so you can connect but it cant see out. Jerry Jerry Jerry On Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 8:08 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: > I have a net metered battery backup Dual stack XW Pro with a Conext > Gateway. The Gateway is communicating on the Xanbus netwark and I'm able to > read and write to the inverters through the gateway as long as I'm > connected to it through the local area network. > I was also able to register the Gateway on the Insight2 website which has > retained some of the iniial data. However, shortly thereafter the gateway > seems to have stopped communicating with the insight server, or at least > the server has stopped showing the gateway as connected. I know there is > internet access because everything else on the LAN has connectivity. > Schneider support not only has been having ridiculously impossible wait > times, but when I do get through to them, they are of no help with this > issue. I've made my way to tier 3 support, but that has not helped in this > matter. > Does anyone know if there is a trick or some reason why the gateway would > stop communicating out to the Insight2 server. I've updated all the > firmware of the schneider products. This has allowed me to actually have > the gateway start working properly, based on the most recent firmware > update this past week. > I've really been happy with the XW+ inverters as well as this relatively > new communication and remote programming capability that the gateway > promises. I would like to continue to use them, however, the difficulty of > getting to Tech Support, no less someone that can actually help is starting > to affect my decision process. Any suggestions are welcome. > Thanks, Howie > > *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Sep 13 09:09:10 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 09:09:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1568380154225.0f27c070514e0048@redwoodalliance.org> I have very similar issues. The Gateway connects and disconnects continually. I have 14,370 events listed, mostly the Gateway connected and disconnected. The first few weeks it was running, the Insight 2 (the Gateway web site) scrolled repeatedly through all the error messages it could throw out. I went out to the site thinking that the system would be in smoldering ruin, but it was working perfectly. The Gateway - Insight 2 system does not seem market ready. Tech support seems to have dried up. The last information I got was: "Are you using DHCP or static IP?. If static, make sure the DNS server and gateway server are correctly manually entered. Also make sure the IP address you chose is appropriate for the subnet range of your router" * Is the connection and disconnection an issue of static IP vs DHCP? * How are corrections make? * How does one correctly enter the DNS server and Gateway. * Where is it entered? * How do we know what IP address is appropriate for the subnet range of the router? Thanks in advance. Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 11:07 PM 9/12/2019, you wrote: >I have a net metered battery backup Dual stack >XW Pro with a Conext Gateway. The Gateway is >communicating on the Xanbus netwark and I'm able >to read and write to the inverters through the >gateway as long as I'm connected to it through the local area network. >I was also able to register the Gateway on the >Insight2 website which has retained some of the >iniial data. However, shortly thereafter the >gateway seems to have stopped communicating with >the insight server, or at least the server has >stopped showing the gateway as connected. I >know there is internet access because everything >else on the LAN has connectivity. >Schneider support not only has been having >ridiculously impossible wait times, but when I >do get through to them, they are of no help with >this issue. I've made my way to tier 3 >support, but that has not helped in this matter. >Does anyone know if there is a trick or some >reason why the gateway would stop communicating >out to the Insight2 server. I've updated all >the firmware of the schneider products. This >has allowed me to actually have the gateway >start working properly, based on the most recent >firmware update this past week. >I've really been happy with the XW+ inverters as >well as this relatively new communication and >remote programming capability that the gateway >promises. I would like to continue to use them, >however, the difficulty of getting to Tech >Support, no less someone that can actually help >is starting to affect my decision process. Any suggestions are welcome. >Thanks, Howie >Howie Michaelson >Sun Catcher >NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >[] > >Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service >802-272-0004 >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Sep 13 09:33:25 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 06:33:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie, So CI2 worked until you did a gateway firmware update? Can you verify that 1.04 firmware is running on the gateway and check my screenshot. I cc'd Sandra on this. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 23:07:11 -0400, Howie Michaelson wrote: I have a net metered battery backup Dual stack XW Pro with a Conext Gateway. The Gateway is communicating on the Xanbus netwark and I'm able to read and write to the inverters through the gateway as long as I'm connected to it through the local area network. I was also able to register the Gateway on the Insight2 website which has retained some of the iniial data. However, shortly thereafter the gateway seems to have stopped communicating with the insight server, or at least the server has stopped showing the gateway as connected. I know there is internet access because everything else on the LAN has connectivity. Schneider support not only has been having ridiculously impossible wait times, but when I do get through to them, they are of no help with this issue. I've made my way to tier 3 support, but that has not helped in this matter. Does anyone know if there is a trick or some reason why the gateway would stop communicating out to the Insight2 server. I've updated all the firmware of the schneider products. This has allowed me to actually have the gateway start working properly, based on the most recent firmware update this past week. I've really been happy with the XW+ inverters as well as this relatively new communication and remote programming capability that the gateway promises. I would like to continue to use them, however, the difficulty of getting to Tech Support, no less someone that can actually help is starting to affect my decision process. Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson SUN CATCHER NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Solar Electric Systems Sales ">802-272-0004 -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: network.PNG Type: image/png Size: 31270 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Sep 13 11:01:38 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 09:01:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway In-Reply-To: <1568380154225.0f27c070514e0048@redwoodalliance.org> References: <1568380154225.0f27c070514e0048@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hi Drake, In general, you want to use DHCP unless its an unusual network. You would typically enter this into the network page of the device. This gives the router control of the IP address and all of the other networking parameters of the device on the network. Static is more common in a commercial environment. If you need to do static for some reason, you would want to talk to the IT person who set up the network. Otherwise, if you choose an IP address already used, it will cause problems and might kick the other device off the network. On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 8:32 AM Drake wrote: > I have very similar issues. The Gateway connects and disconnects > continually. I have 14,370 events listed, mostly the Gateway connected and > disconnected. > > The first few weeks it was running, the Insight 2 (the Gateway web site) > scrolled repeatedly through all the error messages it could throw out. I > went out to the site thinking that the system would be in smoldering ruin, > but it was working perfectly. > > The Gateway - Insight 2 system does not seem market ready. Tech support > seems to have dried up. The last information I got was: > > "Are you using DHCP or static IP?. If static, make sure the DNS server and > gateway server are correctly manually entered. Also make sure the IP > address you chose is appropriate for the subnet range of your router" > > - Is the connection and disconnection an issue of static IP vs DHCP? > - How are corrections make? > - How does one correctly enter the DNS server and Gateway. > - Where is it entered? > - How do we know what IP address is appropriate for the subnet range > of the router? > > Thanks in advance. > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > At 11:07 PM 9/12/2019, you wrote: > > I have a net metered battery backup Dual stack XW Pro with a Conext > Gateway. The Gateway is communicating on the Xanbus netwark and I'm able to > read and write to the inverters through the gateway as long as I'm > connected to it through the local area network. > I was also able to register the Gateway on the Insight2 website which has > retained some of the iniial data. However, shortly thereafter the gateway > seems to have stopped communicating with the insight server, or at least > the server has stopped showing the gateway as connected. I know there is > internet access because everything else on the LAN has connectivity. > Schneider support not only has been having ridiculously impossible wait > times, but when I do get through to them, they are of no help with this > issue. I've made my way to tier 3 support, but that has not helped in > this matter. > Does anyone know if there is a trick or some reason why the gateway would > stop communicating out to the Insight2 server. I've updated all the > firmware of the schneider products. This has allowed me to actually have > the gateway start working properly, based on the most recent firmware > update this past week. > I've really been happy with the XW+ inverters as well as this relatively > new communication and remote programming capability that the gateway > promises. I would like to continue to use them, however, the difficulty of > getting to Tech Support, no less someone that can actually help is starting > to affect my decision process. Any suggestions are welcome. > Thanks, Howie > > *Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢ * [image: []] > Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Sep 13 10:58:40 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 07:58:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway In-Reply-To: <1568380154225.0f27c070514e0048@redwoodalliance.org> References: <1568380154225.0f27c070514e0048@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake, I attached a screenshot. I have had zero problems but I was a Beta field tester for Schneider. I use DHCP only. Everything works that I need for offgrid to config a remote system on Insight2. Ignore the events as this is a known problems for firmware, 2 months away I am told. Make sure you guy's are clearing your browser cache as instructed in the firmware. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 13 Sep 2019 09:09:10 -0400, Drake wrote: I have very similar issues. The Gateway connects and disconnects continually. I have 14,370 events listed, mostly the Gateway connected and disconnected. The first few weeks it was running, the Insight 2 (the Gateway web site) scrolled repeatedly through all the error messages it could throw out. I went out to the site thinking that the system would be in smoldering ruin, but it was working perfectly. The Gateway - Insight 2 system does not seem market ready. Tech support seems to have dried up. The last information I got was: "Are you using DHCP or static IP?. If static, make sure the DNS server and gateway server are correctly manually entered. Also make sure the IP address you chose is appropriate for the subnet range of your router" * Is the connection and disconnection an issue of static IP vs DHCP? * How are corrections make? * How does one correctly enter the DNS server and Gateway. * Where is it entered? * How do we know what IP address is appropriate for the subnet range of the router? Thanks in advance. Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ [3] At 11:07 PM 9/12/2019, you wrote: I have a net metered battery backup Dual stack XW Pro with a Conext Gateway. The Gateway is communicating on the Xanbus netwark and I'm able to read and write to the inverters through the gateway as long as I'm connected to it through the local area network. I was also able to register the Gateway on the Insight2 website which has retained some of the iniial data. However, shortly thereafter the gateway seems to have stopped communicating with the insight server, or at least the server has stopped showing the gateway as connected. I know there is internet access because everything else on the LAN has connectivity. Schneider support not only has been having ridiculously impossible wait times, but when I do get through to them, they are of no help with this issue. I've made my way to tier 3 support, but that has not helped in this matter. Does anyone know if there is a trick or some reason why the gateway would stop communicating out to the Insight2 server. I've updated all the firmware of the schneider products. This has allowed me to actually have the gateway start working properly, based on the most recent firmware update this past week. I've really been happy with the XW+ inverters as well as this relatively new communication and remote programming capability that the gateway promises. I would like to continue to use them, however, the difficulty of getting to Tech Support, no less someone that can actually help is starting to affect my decision process. Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢ Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [5] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://athens-electric.com/ [4] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lan.PNG Type: image/png Size: 36670 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Fri Sep 13 11:55:11 2019 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 15:55:11 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie, I am sorry to hear about the issues with Insight2 as well as communications with our technical support department. We have identified connectivity issues between some gateways and Insight2, in some cases: 1. The Gateway stops sending data to Insight2 after firmware update 2. If the time setting on Gateway is different than time on Isight2, this will cause the no communication issue 3. Customer network connectivity, this one usually shows an intermittent connection We are working on a new framework application that should resolve most of the problems, and this will be a firmware update for Gateway 1.05 as well as the server update, scheduled this month. As far as technical support, we are still experiencing growing pains since the move from Costa Mesa, California to Denver. However, we are hiring two new technicians for the team in Denver, which will reduce the hold time. Unfortunately, the learning curve for a technical support representative is steep, and it usually takes several months for a new hire to get to a level of knowledge. I will reach out to you directly with specific troubleshooting steps to identify the communication issues for the system. Regards Sandra Herrera Sandra.herrera at se.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 8:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ I have a net metered battery backup Dual stack XW Pro with a Conext Gateway. The Gateway is communicating on the Xanbus netwark and I'm able to read and write to the inverters through the gateway as long as I'm connected to it through the local area network. I was also able to register the Gateway on the Insight2 website which has retained some of the iniial data. However, shortly thereafter the gateway seems to have stopped communicating with the insight server, or at least the server has stopped showing the gateway as connected. I know there is internet access because everything else on the LAN has connectivity. Schneider support not only has been having ridiculously impossible wait times, but when I do get through to them, they are of no help with this issue. I've made my way to tier 3 support, but that has not helped in this matter. Does anyone know if there is a trick or some reason why the gateway would stop communicating out to the Insight2 server. I've updated all the firmware of the schneider products. This has allowed me to actually have the gateway start working properly, based on the most recent firmware update this past week. I've really been happy with the XW+ inverters as well as this relatively new communication and remote programming capability that the gateway promises. I would like to continue to use them, however, the difficulty of getting to Tech Support, no less someone that can actually help is starting to affect my decision process. Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ [https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1MQF8aTcFNnBR59ia5JAm1DsPHCxzNkPx&export=download] Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Sep 13 12:16:51 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 12:16:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances In-Reply-To: References: <3B7D136F-56A0-42F2-B109-F09196892309@gmail.com> <56AC8C4F-396B-493D-ACF6-57F4FED4E278@gmail.com> <4088a9543bd42545c111532a8b6e2de4@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: I'll let you all know once we sort this out. A series of blade type disconnects could work. I'm not doing the AC distribution past the inverters, but I need to consult with the electrical contractor so I'm driving the bus at this point. Some combination of manual and automated controls should work. On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 10:10 PM Jay wrote: > We don’t know how you have the AC distribution set up. > > If you have a main that then distributes to sub panels, how about relays > on delay timers that go to each sub. 3-5 seconds would be more than enough. > > Or mechanical discos with simple instructions of delay between each. > But yea people have to read and comprehend and it’s probably dark so maybe > the delay timers. > > Let us know what you end up using > > Jay > > > > > > On Sep 12, 2019, at 3:04 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > > Jason, any chance of one of the "help" being made knowledgeable to manage > this? In a way this is what I do for my offgrid clients. If they won't, I > walk away because it is just to complicated at this stage in RE. Hoping it > will change! > > I get them up to speed on managing loads and understanding what is going > on with the power. This saves me from the headache. Explain that it can > save them quite a bit of money also. I do not envy you and income is > important. Good Luck! > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 17:39:13 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I definitely understand that I can't prevent it 100%, but I can surely > mitigate the likelihood. It's highly unlikely that all 10 refrigerators > will all start simultaneously based on temperature with the well pump and > two air conditioners except when power is first applied. Moreso than the > ATS changeover, I'm concerned about scenarios where everything is > completely off at the property and the inverter breakers are flipped on. > Then I'm essentially guaranteed I'll have 15 motors all trying to start at > the same time. I'm planning 27-32kW of capacity, which may well be enough > depending on how gentle the HVAC units start, but I want to have a strategy > in case things don't go as planned. > > I was thinking that the ATS would be a good strategy to trigger time > delays because it would be implemented whether it was a startup from no > power source or during power source transfer. > > The challenge here is that more than half of these loads will be used > maybe a few weeks a year. I'm tasked with designing a system that will > operate efficiently with both high and low occupancy levels, and it's only > responsible of me to investigate ways to reduce the budget requirement for > the total system. Money is probably not a factor here, but bigger, bigger, > bigger also means bigger headaches when you have 8 inverters to maintain > rather than 6 or 4. > > I do have some other thoughts like ensuring the well pump doesn't turn on > while the Air Conditioning is running. Since it's on a float switch with > ample at-grade storage, I don't really care if it runs only at periods of > light load. > > You do have a point about turning refrigerators on and off by switching > power. I might look into ways to cut the compressor using controls in the > refrigerators instead. That will be a conversation with Sub-Z to see if > they care that power is cycled during operation. > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 8:16 PM Jay wrote: > >> >> You've got to plan on them all starting at once anyway. You can't expect >> that it'll never happen. >> >> And really how do you prevent it. The refrigerators and AC's are on all >> the time waiting for the thermostat to activate. And it's not good to turn >> a working fridge on/off especially is the compressor is running. >> >> Bigger loads, bigger inverters, bigger dollars. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Sep 11, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know" when >> the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX relay >> or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think it will >> be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but maybe. I >> guess the question is how to activate the time delay any time the ATS >> switches over. That would be the easiest solution maybe. >> >> I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over >> 100A @ 240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all >> those motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!) >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar < >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable >>> time delay relays. Stagger the timing. >>> >>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>> In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer >>> from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup >>> load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z >>> large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air >>> conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call >>> to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any >>> ideas? >>> >>> I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, >>> keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's >>> going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of >>> ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this >>> appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)? >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Sep 13 17:42:23 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 15:42:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 150kw 3 phase 50/hz off grid battery/inverter In-Reply-To: References: <3B7D136F-56A0-42F2-B109-F09196892309@gmail.com> <56AC8C4F-396B-493D-ACF6-57F4FED4E278@gmail.com> <4088a9543bd42545c111532a8b6e2de4@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <1EEDF1D2-277B-4E58-9C94-B63B99AC8F89@gmail.com> HI All, Anyone have any specific recommendations for the following. 150kw 3 phase 230/400 50hz. battery based ( battery size isn’t clear yet, but high voltage lithium) PV Generator charge. I see that SMA has their 60kW that’s battery based, but I”m sure there are others out there. Thx jay From djibrilfall at gmail.com Fri Sep 13 19:39:05 2019 From: djibrilfall at gmail.com (James "Jibril" Gustafson) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 17:39:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replacement Solarworld Sunmodule SW plus 250 poly clear frame Message-ID: Sadly, today my crew managed to shatter the glass on a Solarworld module that we had removed from a hail damaged, then re-roofed, roof. The client is really ready to have system running again, and a 30 minute Google search found no available replacements. Does any one know where I might lay my hands on one of these? Thanks, Jibril -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Sep 13 19:50:30 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 16:50:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replacement Solarworld Sunmodule SW plus 250 poly clear frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: James Where are you located? I have some SW Modules, is your module silver and white Jerry On Fri, Sep 13, 2019, 4:39 PM James "Jibril" Gustafson < djibrilfall at gmail.com> wrote: > Sadly, today my crew managed to shatter the glass on a Solarworld module > that we had removed from a hail damaged, then re-roofed, roof. The client > is really ready to have system running again, and a 30 minute Google search > found no available replacements. Does any one know where I might lay my > hands on one of these? > > Thanks, > Jibril > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From djibrilfall at gmail.com Fri Sep 13 19:53:15 2019 From: djibrilfall at gmail.com (James "Jibril" Gustafson) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 17:53:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replacement Solarworld Sunmodule SW plus 250 poly clear frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jerry, Thanks for your reply, I am in Colorado Springs, CO.The module is silver. On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 5:50 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > James > Where are you located? I have some SW Modules, is your module silver and > white > Jerry > > On Fri, Sep 13, 2019, 4:39 PM James "Jibril" Gustafson < > djibrilfall at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Sadly, today my crew managed to shatter the glass on a Solarworld module >> that we had removed from a hail damaged, then re-roofed, roof. The client >> is really ready to have system running again, and a 30 minute Google search >> found no available replacements. Does any one know where I might lay my >> hands on one of these? >> >> Thanks, >> Jibril >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Sep 13 19:59:27 2019 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 19:59:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replacement Solarworld Sunmodule SW plus 250 poly clear frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jibril, I have a solarworld 250 poly clear frame that has been used only as a display panel at shows and events. Contact me off list or give me a call. Can send a photo of it to make sure it looks like the ones you have. John Blittersdorf 200 West Road N Chittenden, VT 05763 John.blittersdorf at gmail.com 802-770-8625 voice and text On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 7:39 PM James "Jibril" Gustafson < djibrilfall at gmail.com> wrote: > Sadly, today my crew managed to shatter the glass on a Solarworld module > that we had removed from a hail damaged, then re-roofed, roof. The client > is really ready to have system running again, and a 30 minute Google search > found no available replacements. Does any one know where I might lay my > hands on one of these? > > Thanks, > Jibril > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From djibrilfall at gmail.com Fri Sep 13 20:03:08 2019 From: djibrilfall at gmail.com (James "Jibril" Gustafson) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 18:03:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replacement Solarworld Sunmodule SW plus 250 poly clear frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, John, Will do. On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 5:59 PM John Blittersdorf < john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > Jibril, > I have a solarworld 250 poly clear frame that has been used only as a > display panel at shows and events. Contact me off list or give me a call. > Can send a photo of it to make sure it looks like the ones you have. > > John Blittersdorf > 200 West Road > N Chittenden, VT 05763 > > John.blittersdorf at gmail.com > 802-770-8625 voice and text > > On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 7:39 PM James "Jibril" Gustafson < > djibrilfall at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Sadly, today my crew managed to shatter the glass on a Solarworld module >> that we had removed from a hail damaged, then re-roofed, roof. The client >> is really ready to have system running again, and a 30 minute Google search >> found no available replacements. Does any one know where I might lay my >> hands on one of these? >> >> Thanks, >> Jibril >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Sep 13 20:41:32 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 18:41:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 150kw 3 phase 50/hz off grid battery/inverter In-Reply-To: <1EEDF1D2-277B-4E58-9C94-B63B99AC8F89@gmail.com> References: <3B7D136F-56A0-42F2-B109-F09196892309@gmail.com> <56AC8C4F-396B-493D-ACF6-57F4FED4E278@gmail.com> <4088a9543bd42545c111532a8b6e2de4@127.0.0.1> <1EEDF1D2-277B-4E58-9C94-B63B99AC8F89@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4356e487-7c65-be2a-ff41-3afd19562b0a@solarray.com> Solar Edge has a Storedge version for Australia that you should look at.  I haven't figured out the best way to procure them though.  We have some work coming up, so I'll let you know what I find, if you Ping me off list. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/13/19 3:42 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > Anyone have any specific recommendations for the following. > > 150kw 3 phase 230/400 50hz. > battery based ( battery size isn’t clear yet, but high voltage lithium) > PV > Generator charge. > > I see that SMA has their 60kW that’s battery based, but I”m sure there are others out there. > > Thx > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Fri Sep 13 23:30:01 2019 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 20:30:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replacement Solarworld Sunmodule SW plus 250 poly clear frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SolarWorld is back in business Sky is the limit... The possibilities We are endless.... are endless... One of the best Solar Products Installation and Service Supplier , Brand We the pioneer in the Solar industry are back with the bang!! With over 40 years of experience and expertise in delivering high performance, from small to large scale projects across all regions we are the One Stop Shop for all your Solar needs. We are humble and thrilled to start our journey fresh on full swing. SOLARWORLD WE ARE BACK! www.solarworld.com.sg Contact Us Today: SolarWorld Asia Pacific Pte Ltd Ph: +65-68423886 | +65-97730261| +49 (0)1728224282 Email: service-singapore at solarworld.com.sg SAVE ENERGY SAVE MONEY SAVE THE PLANET On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 4:59 PM John Blittersdorf < john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > Jibril, > I have a solarworld 250 poly clear frame that has been used only as a > display panel at shows and events. Contact me off list or give me a call. > Can send a photo of it to make sure it looks like the ones you have. > > John Blittersdorf > 200 West Road > > N Chittenden, VT 05763 > > John.blittersdorf at gmail.com > 802-770-8625 voice and text > > On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 7:39 PM James "Jibril" Gustafson < > djibrilfall at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Sadly, today my crew managed to shatter the glass on a Solarworld module >> that we had removed from a hail damaged, then re-roofed, roof. The client >> is really ready to have system running again, and a 30 minute Google search >> found no available replacements. Does any one know where I might lay my >> hands on one of these? >> >> Thanks, >> Jibril >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sat Sep 14 00:25:42 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 18:25:42 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replacement Solarworld Sunmodule SW plus 250 poly clear frame In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is this company in Singapore providing warranty coverage for SW products made by the previous incarnation? On Friday, September 13, 2019, David Katz wrote: > SolarWorld is back in business > > > Sky is the limit... > The possibilities > We are endless.... > are endless... > One of the best > Solar Products > Installation and Service Supplier > , > Brand > > We the pioneer in the Solar industry are back with the bang!! With over 40 > years of experience and expertise in delivering high performance, from > small to large scale projects across all regions we are the One Stop Shop > for all your Solar needs. > We are humble and thrilled to start our journey fresh on full swing. > SOLARWORLD > WE ARE BACK! www.solarworld.com.sg > Contact Us Today: > SolarWorld Asia Pacific Pte Ltd > Ph: +65-68423886 | +65-97730261| +49 (0)1728224282 > Email: service-singapore at solarworld.com.sg > > > > SAVE ENERGY SAVE MONEY SAVE THE PLANET > > > On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 4:59 PM John Blittersdorf < > john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Jibril, >> I have a solarworld 250 poly clear frame that has been used only as a >> display panel at shows and events. Contact me off list or give me a call. >> Can send a photo of it to make sure it looks like the ones you have. >> >> John Blittersdorf >> 200 West Road >> >> N Chittenden, VT 05763 >> >> John.blittersdorf at gmail.com >> 802-770-8625 voice and text >> >> On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 7:39 PM James "Jibril" Gustafson < >> djibrilfall at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Sadly, today my crew managed to shatter the glass on a Solarworld module >>> that we had removed from a hail damaged, then re-roofed, roof. The client >>> is really ready to have system running again, and a 30 minute Google search >>> found no available replacements. Does any one know where I might lay my >>> hands on one of these? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Jibril >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Sep 14 10:25:50 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 10:25:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Mac, This is a residential application, so it is likely that we already are set up on DHCP, although this is not verified. If this was set up on static, would it cause the disconnection issues? Is it the router that is set to DHCP?  Doesn't the router assign the Gateway the IP addresses? The internet seems stable. I've used it a lot. Your help is very much appreciated. Thank you, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 09:01:38 -0600 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway Hi Drake, In general, you want to use DHCP unless its an unusual network.  You would typically enter this into the network page of the device.  This gives the router control of the IP address and all of the other networking parameters of the device on the network.  Static is more common in a commercial environment. If you need to do static for some reason, you would want to talk to the IT person who set up the network.  Otherwise, if you choose an IP address already used, it will cause problems and might kick the other device off the network. On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 8:32 AM Drake wrote: I have very similar issues. The Gateway connects and disconnects continually. I have 14,370 events listed, mostly the Gateway connected and disconnected. The first few weeks it was running, the Insight 2 (the Gateway web site) scrolled repeatedly through all the error messages it could throw out. I went out to the site thinking that the system would be in smoldering ruin, but it was working perfectly. The Gateway - Insight 2 system does not seem market ready. Tech support seems to have dried up. The last information I got was: "Are you using DHCP or static IP?. If static, make sure the DNS server and gateway server are correctly manually entered. Also make sure the IP address you chose is appropriate for the subnet range of your router" * Is the connection and disconnection an issue of  static IP vs DHCP? * How are corrections make? * How does one correctly enter the DNS server and Gateway. * Where is it entered?  * How do we know what IP address is appropriate for the subnet range of the router? Thanks in advance. Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ [2] At 11:07 PM 9/12/2019, you wrote: I have a net metered battery backup Dual stack XW Pro with a Conext Gateway. The Gateway is communicating on the Xanbus netwark and I'm able to read and write to the inverters through the gateway as long as I'm connected to it through the local area network. I was also able to register the Gateway on the Insight2 website which has retained some of the iniial data. However, shortly thereafter the gateway seems to have stopped communicating with the insight server, or at least the server has stopped showing the gateway as connected.  I know there is internet access because everything else on the LAN has connectivity.  Schneider support not only has been having ridiculously impossible wait times, but when I do get through to them, they are of no help with this issue.  I've made my way to tier 3 support, but that has not helped in this matter. Does anyone know if there is a trick or some reason why the gateway would stop communicating out to the Insight2 server.  I've updated all the firmware of the schneider products.  This has allowed me to actually have the gateway start working properly, based on the most recent firmware update this past week. I've really been happy with the XW+ inverters as well as this relatively new communication and remote programming capability that the gateway promises. I would like to continue to use them, however, the difficulty of getting to Tech Support, no less someone that can actually help is starting to affect my decision process.  Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢ Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [3] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [5] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] -- Mac Lewis "YO SOLO Sé QUE NO Sé NADA." -SóCRATES Links: ------ [1] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [2] http://athens-electric.com/ [3] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Sep 14 12:01:09 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 09:01:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Everything is set in the device, if it is static then you make the change as long g as it is with in the routers range, DHCP will do that on it's own. If it is DHCP a power cycle should make the device reassign an IP, If static then no, it will just try to connect Jerry Jerry On Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 8:24 AM wrote: > Hi Mac, > > This is a residential application, so it is likely that we already are set > up on DHCP, although this is not verified. If this was set up on static, > would it cause the disconnection issues? > > Is it the router that is set to DHCP? Doesn't the router assign the > Gateway the IP addresses? > > The internet seems stable. I've used it a lot. > > Your help is very much appreciated. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > "RE-wrenches" > > To: > "RE-wrenches" > Cc: > > Sent: > Fri, 13 Sep 2019 09:01:38 -0600 > Subject: > Re: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway > > > Hi Drake, > > In general, you want to use DHCP unless its an unusual network. You would > typically enter this into the network page of the device. This gives the > router control of the IP address and all of the other networking parameters > of the device on the network. Static is more common in a > commercial environment. > > If you need to do static for some reason, you would want to talk to the IT > person who set up the network. Otherwise, if you choose an IP address > already used, it will cause problems and might kick the other device off > the network. > > On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 8:32 AM Drake < > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > >> I have very similar issues. The Gateway connects and disconnects >> continually. I have 14,370 events listed, mostly the Gateway connected and >> disconnected. >> >> The first few weeks it was running, the Insight 2 (the Gateway web site) >> scrolled repeatedly through all the error messages it could throw out. I >> went out to the site thinking that the system would be in smoldering ruin, >> but it was working perfectly. >> >> The Gateway - Insight 2 system does not seem market ready. Tech support >> seems to have dried up. The last information I got was: >> >> "Are you using DHCP or static IP?. If static, make sure the DNS server >> and gateway server are correctly manually entered. Also make sure the IP >> address you chose is appropriate for the subnet range of your router" >> >> - Is the connection and disconnection an issue of static IP vs DHCP? >> - How are corrections make? >> - How does one correctly enter the DNS server and Gateway. >> - Where is it entered? >> - How do we know what IP address is appropriate for the subnet range >> of the router? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> >> >> >> >> >> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified >> Solar PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> At 11:07 PM 9/12/2019, you wrote: >> >> I have a net metered battery backup Dual stack XW Pro with a Conext >> Gateway. The Gateway is communicating on the Xanbus netwark and I'm able to >> read and write to the inverters through the gateway as long as I'm >> connected to it through the local area network. >> I was also able to register the Gateway on the Insight2 website which has >> retained some of the iniial data. However, shortly thereafter the gateway >> seems to have stopped communicating with the insight server, or at least >> the server has stopped showing the gateway as connected. I know there is >> internet access because everything else on the LAN has connectivity. >> Schneider support not only has been having ridiculously impossible wait >> times, but when I do get through to them, they are of no help with this >> issue. I've made my way to tier 3 support, but that has not helped in >> this matter. >> Does anyone know if there is a trick or some reason why the gateway would >> stop communicating out to the Insight2 server. I've updated all the >> firmware of the schneider products. This has allowed me to actually have >> the gateway start working properly, based on the most recent firmware >> update this past week. >> I've really been happy with the XW+ inverters as well as this relatively >> new communication and remote programming capability that the gateway >> promises. I would like to continue to use them, however, the difficulty of >> getting to Tech Support, no less someone that can actually help is starting >> to affect my decision process. Any suggestions are welcome. >> Thanks, Howie >> >> *Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher* >> >> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢* >> Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service >> 802-272-0004 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Sep 14 12:24:36 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 12:24:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway Message-ID: <9vdr91pc584tr1mhm624rfa8.1568478116491@email.lge.com> The DHCP server will only assign a new IP address if it's lease time has expired. Otherwise it will continue to use the same IP address it previously held.A simple power cycle will most likely not result in a new address.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Jerry ShaferDate: Sat, Sep 14, 2019 12:01 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext GatewayEverything is set in the device, if it is static then you make the change as long g as it is with in the routers range, DHCP will do that on it's own. If it is DHCP a power cycle should make the device reassign an IP, If static then no, it will just try to connect JerryJerryOn Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 8:24 AM wrote:Hi Mac,This is a residential application, so it is likely that we already are set up on DHCP, although this is not verified. If this was set up on static, would it cause the disconnection issues? Is it the router that is set to DHCP?  Doesn't the router assign the Gateway the IP addresses? The internet seems stable. I've used it a lot. Your help is very much appreciated.Thank you,Drake ----- Original Message -----From: "RE-wrenches" To:"RE-wrenches" Cc:Sent:Fri, 13 Sep 2019 09:01:38 -0600Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext GatewayHi Drake,In general, you want to use DHCP unless its an unusual network.  You would typically enter this into the network page of the device.  This gives the router control of the IP address and all of the other networking parameters of the device on the network.  Static is more common in a commercial environment.If you need to do static for some reason, you would want to talk to the IT person who set up the network.  Otherwise, if you choose an IP address already used, it will cause problems and might kick the other device off the network.On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 8:32 AM Drake wrote: I have very similar issues. The Gateway connects and disconnects continually. I have 14,370 events listed, mostly the Gateway connected and disconnected. The first few weeks it was running, the Insight 2 (the Gateway web site) scrolled repeatedly through all the error messages it could throw out. I went out to the site thinking that the system would be in smoldering ruin, but it was working perfectly. The Gateway - Insight 2 system does not seem market ready. Tech support seems to have dried up. The last information I got was: "Are you using DHCP or static IP?. If static, make sure the DNS server and gateway server are correctly manually entered. Also make sure the IP address you chose is appropriate for the subnet range of your router" Is the connection and disconnection an issue of  static IP vs DHCP? How are corrections make? How does one correctly enter the DNS server and Gateway. Where is it entered?  How do we know what IP address is appropriate for the subnet range of the router? Thanks in advance. Drake Drake ChamberlinAthens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328http://athens-electric.com/ At 11:07 PM 9/12/2019, you wrote:I have a net metered battery backup Dual stack XW Pro with a Conext Gateway. The Gateway is communicating on the Xanbus netwark and I'm able to read and write to the inverters through the gateway as long as I'm connected to it through the local area network. I was also able to register the Gateway on the Insight2 website which has retained some of the iniial data. However, shortly thereafter the gateway seems to have stopped communicating with the insight server, or at least the server has stopped showing the gateway as connected.  I know there is internet access because everything else on the LAN has connectivity.  Schneider support not only has been having ridiculously impossible wait times, but when I do get through to them, they are of no help with this issue.  I've made my way to tier 3 support, but that has not helped in this matter. Does anyone know if there is a trick or some reason why the gateway would stop communicating out to the Insight2 server.  I've updated all the firmware of the schneider products.  This has allowed me to actually have the gateway start working properly, based on the most recent firmware update this past week. I've really been happy with the XW+ inverters as well as this relatively new communication and remote programming capability that the gateway promises. I would like to continue to use them, however, the difficulty of getting to Tech Support, no less someone that can actually help is starting to affect my decision process.  Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks, HowieHowie Michaelson Sun CatcherNABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢ Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org-- Mac Lewis"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sun Sep 15 12:45:09 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 12:45:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sandra, Thank you very much for getting back to me. I really want to use Schneider equipment, but the tech support delays alone are incredibly infuriating! Good to know that you are working on it, and I understand the slow training issue. On the other hand, this is an incredibly unfair and unwise way to treat your installer base! I have wasted all told probably a week of my time waiting on the phone and trying solutions that tech support has offered or suggested without the needed information about the current state of various devices. And to release equipment onto us that hasn't been vetted enough is costly to us, and degrades my confidence in all the equipment, not to mention my clients confidence and satisfaction with me. Schneider is obviously not the first company to experience these type of challenges, but I thought they had learned from others, including their Xantrex predecessor - now I'm not so sure. I look forward to a significant improvement in tech support. I would think Schneider has the resources to make this happen quickly. Best, Howie On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 11:55 AM Sandra Herrera wrote: > Howie, > > I am sorry to hear about the issues with Insight2 as well as > communications with our technical support department. > > We have identified connectivity issues between some gateways and Insight2, > in some cases: > > 1. The Gateway stops sending data to Insight2 after firmware update > 2. If the time setting on Gateway is different than time on Isight2, > this will cause the no communication issue > 3. Customer network connectivity, this one usually shows an > intermittent connection > > We are working on a new framework application that should resolve most of > the problems, and this will be a firmware update for Gateway 1.05 as well > as the server update, scheduled this month. > > > > As far as technical support, we are still experiencing growing pains since > the move from Costa Mesa, California to Denver. However, we are hiring two > new technicians for the team in Denver, which will reduce the hold time. > Unfortunately, the learning curve for a technical support representative is > steep, and it usually takes several months for a new hire to get to a level > of knowledge. > > I will reach out to you directly with specific troubleshooting steps to > identify the communication issues for the system. > > > > Regards > > > > Sandra Herrera > > Sandra.herrera at se.com > > > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Howie Michaelson > *Sent:* Thursday, September 12, 2019 8:07 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway > > > > [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] > ------------------------------ > > > > I have a net metered battery backup Dual stack XW Pro with a Conext > Gateway. The Gateway is communicating on the Xanbus netwark and I'm able to > read and write to the inverters through the gateway as long as I'm > connected to it through the local area network. > > I was also able to register the Gateway on the Insight2 website which has > retained some of the iniial data. However, shortly thereafter the gateway > seems to have stopped communicating with the insight server, or at least > the server has stopped showing the gateway as connected. I know there is > internet access because everything else on the LAN has connectivity. > > Schneider support not only has been having ridiculously impossible wait > times, but when I do get through to them, they are of no help with this > issue. I've made my way to tier 3 support, but that has not helped in this > matter. > > Does anyone know if there is a trick or some reason why the gateway would > stop communicating out to the Insight2 server. I've updated all the > firmware of the schneider products. This has allowed me to actually have > the gateway start working properly, based on the most recent firmware > update this past week. > > I've really been happy with the XW+ inverters as well as this relatively > new communication and remote programming capability that the gateway > promises. I would like to continue to use them, however, the difficulty of > getting to Tech Support, no less someone that can actually help is starting > to affect my decision process. Any suggestions are welcome. > > Thanks, Howie > > > *Howie Michaelson **Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ * > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service **802-272-0004* > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Sun Sep 15 14:45:27 2019 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 18:45:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0b9a68aece594e15a9d091f9452e250f@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Howie, I share much of your frustration. I have dozens of clients using the Combox / Insight platform. The comboxes are generally solid, but insight has not been reliable for at least a year. All sorts of randomly scrambled and contradictory data from insight - wastes the installers time when we don't have reliable data. The gateway / Insight2 looks promising, but the software has a long way to go. Reliability issues are one, but I find the layout and overall design and ability to view and extract performance data is poor. So we have two communications options for this platform, neither are fully reliable at this time. Challenging. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: September-15-19 9:45 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway Sandra, Thank you very much for getting back to me. I really want to use Schneider equipment, but the tech support delays alone are incredibly infuriating! Good to know that you are working on it, and I understand the slow training issue. On the other hand, this is an incredibly unfair and unwise way to treat your installer base! I have wasted all told probably a week of my time waiting on the phone and trying solutions that tech support has offered or suggested without the needed information about the current state of various devices. And to release equipment onto us that hasn't been vetted enough is costly to us, and degrades my confidence in all the equipment, not to mention my clients confidence and satisfaction with me. Schneider is obviously not the first company to experience these type of challenges, but I thought they had learned from others, including their Xantrex predecessor - now I'm not so sure. I look forward to a significant improvement in tech support. I would think Schneider has the resources to make this happen quickly. Best, Howie On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 11:55 AM Sandra Herrera > wrote: Howie, I am sorry to hear about the issues with Insight2 as well as communications with our technical support department. We have identified connectivity issues between some gateways and Insight2, in some cases: 1. The Gateway stops sending data to Insight2 after firmware update 2. If the time setting on Gateway is different than time on Isight2, this will cause the no communication issue 3. Customer network connectivity, this one usually shows an intermittent connection We are working on a new framework application that should resolve most of the problems, and this will be a firmware update for Gateway 1.05 as well as the server update, scheduled this month. As far as technical support, we are still experiencing growing pains since the move from Costa Mesa, California to Denver. However, we are hiring two new technicians for the team in Denver, which will reduce the hold time. Unfortunately, the learning curve for a technical support representative is steep, and it usually takes several months for a new hire to get to a level of knowledge. I will reach out to you directly with specific troubleshooting steps to identify the communication issues for the system. Regards Sandra Herrera Sandra.herrera at se.com From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 8:07 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ I have a net metered battery backup Dual stack XW Pro with a Conext Gateway. The Gateway is communicating on the Xanbus netwark and I'm able to read and write to the inverters through the gateway as long as I'm connected to it through the local area network. I was also able to register the Gateway on the Insight2 website which has retained some of the iniial data. However, shortly thereafter the gateway seems to have stopped communicating with the insight server, or at least the server has stopped showing the gateway as connected. I know there is internet access because everything else on the LAN has connectivity. Schneider support not only has been having ridiculously impossible wait times, but when I do get through to them, they are of no help with this issue. I've made my way to tier 3 support, but that has not helped in this matter. Does anyone know if there is a trick or some reason why the gateway would stop communicating out to the Insight2 server. I've updated all the firmware of the schneider products. This has allowed me to actually have the gateway start working properly, based on the most recent firmware update this past week. I've really been happy with the XW+ inverters as well as this relatively new communication and remote programming capability that the gateway promises. I would like to continue to use them, however, the difficulty of getting to Tech Support, no less someone that can actually help is starting to affect my decision process. Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Sun Sep 15 15:36:29 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 15:36:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults In-Reply-To: References: <9bf0d442481c01b7d9e390a1e9ba1dcd22c9ece1@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2eea28ef-67f5-f66c-a92f-5bf9bfe8763c@psln.com> <01302bce1a016e0a41f42fb9077caa5e@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <1be16cec-dedb-464d-0e04-dfe086a2781b@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey Folks, How do you clear an 8206 from a SB7.7-US?  the manual says tap on the cover within 10 seconds of error message.  That's not working. Does that tap then set it up for the next restart or is it supposed to clear it right away - I've tried restarting again to no avail. When I tap right after the message appears it simply toggles to the next screen. Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Mac Lewis wrote on 9/6/19 7:14 AM: > Hello Wrenches, > > You may be aware of this but the -92R firmware supposedly has > addressed the arc fault issue for the US-40 inverters.  See here for > the download: > https://www.sma-america.com/service-support/downloads.html  It fixed > an arc fault issue for me yesterday at least.  Bring a thumb drive, > the update process took about an hour to perform. > > On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 10:40 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > wrote: > > Same up here in the southern sierra. I get calls from ABB and a > few from SMA to look at systems that people far away installed and > as a local 3rd party it can save some money. Whatever they quote > me I triple the price. 1/3 up front and the rest when it is done. > ABB is really slow with payment. I think they sold their inverter > business?  Sunpower is a great panel but they have had some bad > runs. Probably why there are so many new/used panels on the > secondary market. They are great for Offgrid ground arrays and no AFD. > > On Tue, 3 Sep 2019 09:52:19 -0400, Dave Tedeyan > > wrote: > >> Chris, >> Sunpower has taken some responsibility on some of our older >> Sunpower systems that are arc faulting. We tell them that a >> system is arc faulting, and then they insist on sending up a 3rd >> party contractor to inspect the system and potentially install >> what they call "Tigo Diodes". I am still not exactly sure what >> that is. It also seems to take them months to send anyone to >> upstate NY, as we have a bunch of customers that have been >> waiting months for the 3rd party contractor to come take a look. >> You likely could only follow this route though if the system was >> installed by a Sunpower dealer and you are a Sunpower dealer >> yourself. If the original system was from a Sunpower dealer, you >> can also have the customer call Sunpower directly. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. 607.277.1118 x121  f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> Solar •Sustainability • Energy • Design >> B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree >> >> On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 9:43 AM Chris Schaefer >> > wrote: >> >> Got called in by another peer to debug that infamous SMA >> error 8206 on a 2 year old 5kw unit.  The array is roof >> mounted on composite shingles with 14 SunPower 345w >> modules. First time ever seeing this error on this project. >> I'd love to hear from others as to what they've found or >> better yet hear from an SMA rep as to what they suggest. Not >> a whole lot of detail in the SMA users manual. >> Thanks, >> Christopher >> >> Chris Schaefer's >> >> /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> //www.solarandwindfx.com  ~ >> E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> / >> >> / >> / >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once >> said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from >> those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 12:03 PM Jerry Shafer >> > >> wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> I have had chiller pump contactor along with wells, shop >> air compressors all create enough of an arc to trigger >> the inverters. ABB inverters only pick up off the DC but >> even there l had arc welders trip the inverters. >> Jerry >> >> On Mon, Sep 2, 2019, 8:14 AM frenergy > > wrote: >> >> Interestingly, the problems I've had with the SMA -40 >> AFCI faults have been on Comp roofs.  When I've gone >> "inside" a -40 with my laptop, I'm pretty sure I've >> seen where you can disable it? >> >> Bill >> >> On 9/2/2019 7:12 AM, >> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >> wrote: >>> At least with the TL-22s, the AFCI function can be >>> turned off. You need a/Web connect speed wire >>> module/. .I don't know if this same protocol will >>> work for the TL 40s or not. >>> Metal roofing can apparently be affected by radio >>> waves and by other factors that create a disturbance >>> that can trigger the AFCI.The TL 40 was supposed to >>> overcome this problem. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> "RE-wrenches" >>> >>> >>> >>> To: >>> "RE-wrenches" >>> >>> >>> Cc: >>> >>> Sent: >>> Sun, 1 Sep 2019 07:42:14 -1000 >>> Subject: >>> [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults >>> >>> >>> Aloha all, >>> My company has really been struggling with the >>> SMA US-40 line of inverters and incredibly >>> disruptive to positive customer experiences >>> bogus arc faults. >>> We were told by our SMA friends that a firmware >>> update/fix was forthcoming in mid-August and >>> we've heard nor received nothing last month. >>> Does anyone know anything as to where they're at >>> on this? >>> Really frustrated.... >>> marco >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> -- >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer's >> >> /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ >> E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> / >> >> / >> / >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once >> said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from >> those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 200 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Sep 15 16:41:23 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 14:41:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults In-Reply-To: <1be16cec-dedb-464d-0e04-dfe086a2781b@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <9bf0d442481c01b7d9e390a1e9ba1dcd22c9ece1@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2eea28ef-67f5-f66c-a92f-5bf9bfe8763c@psln.com> <01302bce1a016e0a41f42fb9077caa5e@127.0.0.1> <1be16cec-dedb-464d-0e04-dfe086a2781b@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Hi Jeff, Yes, that doesn't seem to work well. Best way is to log into the machine and clear it with the browser interface. Here are my notes from this process because its not inuitive: Double tap cover Blue Light Blinks Find Network Called SMA[Serial Number Here] Connect to this Wifi network Open Browser Plug into address bar 192.168.12.3 Log in as installer Password is _______________(Im not sure) Select Device Parameters Push On Edit Parameter button Device>Operation>Reset Operating Data You must Save these changes. This will clear the device and allow it to restart. I would also verify that you have the -92R firmware otherwise it may happen again. Good luck On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 1:36 PM Jeff Clearwater < jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > Hey Folks, > > How do you clear an 8206 from a SB7.7-US? the manual says tap on the > cover within 10 seconds of error message. That's not working. > > Does that tap then set it up for the next restart or is it supposed to > clear it right away - I've tried restarting again to no avail. > > When I tap right after the message appears it simply toggles to the next > screen. > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > > Mac Lewis wrote on 9/6/19 7:14 AM: > > Hello Wrenches, > > You may be aware of this but the -92R firmware supposedly has addressed > the arc fault issue for the US-40 inverters. See here for the download: > https://www.sma-america.com/service-support/downloads.html It fixed an > arc fault issue for me yesterday at least. Bring a thumb drive, the update > process took about an hour to perform. > > On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 10:40 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> Same up here in the southern sierra. I get calls from ABB and a few from >> SMA to look at systems that people far away installed and as a local 3rd >> party it can save some money. Whatever they quote me I triple the price. >> 1/3 up front and the rest when it is done. ABB is really slow with payment. >> I think they sold their inverter business? Sunpower is a great panel but >> they have had some bad runs. Probably why there are so many new/used panels >> on the secondary market. They are great for Offgrid ground arrays and no >> AFD. >> >> On Tue, 3 Sep 2019 09:52:19 -0400, Dave Tedeyan >> wrote: >> >> Chris, >> Sunpower has taken some responsibility on some of our older Sunpower >> systems that are arc faulting. We tell them that a system is arc faulting, >> and then they insist on sending up a 3rd party contractor to inspect the >> system and potentially install what they call "Tigo Diodes". I am still not >> exactly sure what that is. It also seems to take them months to send anyone >> to upstate NY, as we have a bunch of customers that have been waiting >> months for the 3rd party contractor to come take a look. You likely could >> only follow this route though if the system was installed by a Sunpower >> dealer and you are a Sunpower dealer yourself. If the original system was >> from a Sunpower dealer, you can also have the customer call Sunpower >> directly. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >> B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree >> >> On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 9:43 AM Chris Schaefer >> wrote: >> >>> Got called in by another peer to debug that infamous SMA error 8206 on a >>> 2 year old 5kw unit. The array is roof mounted on composite shingles with >>> 14 SunPower 345w modules. First time ever seeing this error on this >>> project. I'd love to hear from others as to what they've found or better >>> yet hear from an SMA rep as to what they suggest. Not a whole lot of detail >>> in the SMA users manual. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Christopher >>> >>> Chris Schaefer's >>> >>> >>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >>> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> * >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 12:03 PM Jerry Shafer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Wrenches >>>> I have had chiller pump contactor along with wells, shop air >>>> compressors all create enough of an arc to trigger the inverters. ABB >>>> inverters only pick up off the DC but even there l had arc welders trip the >>>> inverters. >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 2, 2019, 8:14 AM frenergy wrote: >>>> >>>>> Interestingly, the problems I've had with the SMA -40 AFCI faults have >>>>> been on Comp roofs. When I've gone "inside" a -40 with my laptop, I'm >>>>> pretty sure I've seen where you can disable it? >>>>> >>>>> Bill >>>>> On 9/2/2019 7:12 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> At least with the TL-22s, the AFCI function can be turned off. You >>>>> need a* Web connect speed wire module*. .I don't know if this same >>>>> protocol will work for the TL 40s or not. >>>>> >>>>> Metal roofing can apparently be affected by radio waves and by other >>>>> factors that create a disturbance that can trigger the AFCI.The TL 40 was >>>>> supposed to overcome this problem. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: >>>>> "RE-wrenches" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To: >>>>> "RE-wrenches" >>>>> >>>>> Cc: >>>>> >>>>> Sent: >>>>> Sun, 1 Sep 2019 07:42:14 -1000 >>>>> Subject: >>>>> [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Aloha all, >>>>> >>>>> My company has really been struggling with the SMA US-40 line of >>>>> inverters and incredibly disruptive to positive customer experiences bogus >>>>> arc faults. >>>>> >>>>> We were told by our SMA friends that a firmware update/fix was >>>>> forthcoming in mid-August and we've heard nor received nothing last month. >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone know anything as to where they're at on this? >>>>> >>>>> Really frustrated.... >>>>> >>>>> marco >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Feather River Solar Electric >>>>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>>>> 4291 Nelson St. >>>>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>>>> 530.284.7849 >>>>> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Virus-free. >>>>> www.avast.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer's >>> >>> >>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >>> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> * >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> -- >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 200 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Sep 15 16:43:08 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 16:43:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults Message-ID: <44pkb60v8mcupqi3a7l8v7lo.1568580030300@email.lge.com> I have been told the restart and tap works if you constantly tap it when the message appears; support says like you are going for a record number of hits in the time window.I used the Ethernet login to reset one last week, seemed to be straightforward once I got through the 45m SMA wait.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Jeff ClearwaterDate: Sun, Sep 15, 2019 3:36 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Mac Lewis;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faultsHey Folks, How do you clear an 8206 from a SB7.7-US?  the manual says tap on the cover within 10 seconds of error message.  That's not working. Does that tap then set it up for the next restart or is it supposed to clear it right away - I've tried restarting again to no avail. When I tap right after the message appears it simply toggles to the next screen. Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Mac Lewis wrote on 9/6/19 7:14 AM: Hello Wrenches,You may be aware of this but the -92R firmware supposedly has addressed the arc fault issue for the US-40 inverters.  See here for the download: https://www.sma-america.com/service-support/downloads.html  It fixed an arc fault issue for me yesterday at least.  Bring a thumb drive, the update process took about an hour to perform. On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 10:40 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:Same up here in the southern sierra. I get calls from ABB and a few from SMA to look at systems that people far away installed and as a local 3rd party it can save some money. Whatever they quote me I triple the price. 1/3 up front and the rest when it is done. ABB is really slow with payment. I think they sold their inverter business?  Sunpower is a great panel but they have had some bad runs. Probably why there are so many new/used panels on the secondary market. They are great for Offgrid ground arrays and no AFD. On Tue, 3 Sep 2019 09:52:19 -0400, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Chris, Sunpower has taken some responsibility on some of our older Sunpower systems that are arc faulting. We tell them that a system is arc faulting, and then they insist on sending up a 3rd party contractor to inspect the system and potentially install what they call "Tigo Diodes". I am still not exactly sure what that is. It also seems to take them months to send anyone to upstate NY, as we have a bunch of customers that have been waiting months for the 3rd party contractor to come take a look. You likely could only follow this route though if the system was installed by a Sunpower dealer and you are a Sunpower dealer yourself. If the original system was from a Sunpower dealer, you can also have the customer call Sunpower directly.   Cheers, Dave   Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121  f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com   Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 9:43 AM Chris Schaefer wrote: Got called in by another peer to debug that infamous SMA error 8206 on a 2 year old 5kw unit.  The array is roof mounted on composite shingles with 14 SunPower 345w modules. First time ever seeing this error on this project. I'd love to hear from others as to what they've found or better yet hear from an SMA rep as to what they suggest. Not a whole lot of detail in the SMA users manual.   Thanks, Christopher Chris Schaefer'sTel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 12:03 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches I have had chiller pump contactor along with wells, shop air compressors all create enough of an arc to trigger the inverters. ABB inverters only pick up off the DC but even there l had arc welders trip the inverters.  Jerry On Mon, Sep 2, 2019, 8:14 AM frenergy wrote: Interestingly, the problems I've had with the SMA -40 AFCI faults have been on Comp roofs.  When I've gone "inside" a -40 with my laptop, I'm pretty sure I've seen where you can disable it? Bill On 9/2/2019 7:12 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: At least with the TL-22s, the AFCI function can be turned off. You need a Web connect speed wire module. .I don't know if this same protocol will work for the TL 40s or not.    Metal roofing can apparently be affected by radio waves and by other factors that create a disturbance that can trigger the AFCI.The TL 40 was supposed to overcome this problem. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 07:42:14 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults Aloha all,   My company has really been struggling with the SMA US-40 line of inverters and incredibly disruptive to positive customer experiences bogus arc faults.    We were told by our SMA friends that a firmware update/fix was forthcoming in mid-August and we've heard nor received nothing last month.   Does anyone know anything as to where they're at on this?   Really frustrated....   marco  _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net Virus-free. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org   -- Chris Schaefer'sTel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org --   Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 200 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Sep 15 16:57:51 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 14:57:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Drake, In response to your questions: This is a residential application, so it is likely that we already are set up on DHCP, although this is not verified. If this was set up on static, would it cause the disconnection issues? *Hard to know, there are a lot of pitfalls for static IP addressing, most of which I don't understand. If there were devices with the same IP address they would interfere with each other and could cause disconnection issues.* Is it the router that is set to DHCP? * Its actually the device is set up as DHCP. It is handing over control of its networking parameters to the router (including the IP address). Routers will have the ability to perform the DHCP operation..* Doesn't the router assign the Gateway the IP addresses? * If you are talking about the Conext Gateway (not the network gateway) as long as you set the Gateway to DHCP, yes you've given the IP addressing duty to the router.* Im thinking that since Schneider is experiencing so many issues, its probably a software issue on their end. Hope that helps. On Sat, Sep 14, 2019 at 9:24 AM wrote: > Hi Mac, > > This is a residential application, so it is likely that we already are set > up on DHCP, although this is not verified. If this was set up on static, > would it cause the disconnection issues? > > Is it the router that is set to DHCP? Doesn't the router assign the > Gateway the IP addresses? > > The internet seems stable. I've used it a lot. > > Your help is very much appreciated. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > "RE-wrenches" > > To: > "RE-wrenches" > Cc: > > Sent: > Fri, 13 Sep 2019 09:01:38 -0600 > Subject: > Re: [RE-wrenches] Communications using the Conext Gateway > > > Hi Drake, > > In general, you want to use DHCP unless its an unusual network. You would > typically enter this into the network page of the device. This gives the > router control of the IP address and all of the other networking parameters > of the device on the network. Static is more common in a > commercial environment. > > If you need to do static for some reason, you would want to talk to the IT > person who set up the network. Otherwise, if you choose an IP address > already used, it will cause problems and might kick the other device off > the network. > > On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 8:32 AM Drake < > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > >> I have very similar issues. The Gateway connects and disconnects >> continually. I have 14,370 events listed, mostly the Gateway connected and >> disconnected. >> >> The first few weeks it was running, the Insight 2 (the Gateway web site) >> scrolled repeatedly through all the error messages it could throw out. I >> went out to the site thinking that the system would be in smoldering ruin, >> but it was working perfectly. >> >> The Gateway - Insight 2 system does not seem market ready. Tech support >> seems to have dried up. The last information I got was: >> >> "Are you using DHCP or static IP?. If static, make sure the DNS server >> and gateway server are correctly manually entered. Also make sure the IP >> address you chose is appropriate for the subnet range of your router" >> >> - Is the connection and disconnection an issue of static IP vs DHCP? >> - How are corrections make? >> - How does one correctly enter the DNS server and Gateway. >> - Where is it entered? >> - How do we know what IP address is appropriate for the subnet range >> of the router? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> >> >> >> >> >> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified >> Solar PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> At 11:07 PM 9/12/2019, you wrote: >> >> I have a net metered battery backup Dual stack XW Pro with a Conext >> Gateway. The Gateway is communicating on the Xanbus netwark and I'm able to >> read and write to the inverters through the gateway as long as I'm >> connected to it through the local area network. >> I was also able to register the Gateway on the Insight2 website which has >> retained some of the iniial data. However, shortly thereafter the gateway >> seems to have stopped communicating with the insight server, or at least >> the server has stopped showing the gateway as connected. I know there is >> internet access because everything else on the LAN has connectivity. >> Schneider support not only has been having ridiculously impossible wait >> times, but when I do get through to them, they are of no help with this >> issue. I've made my way to tier 3 support, but that has not helped in >> this matter. >> Does anyone know if there is a trick or some reason why the gateway would >> stop communicating out to the Insight2 server. I've updated all the >> firmware of the schneider products. This has allowed me to actually have >> the gateway start working properly, based on the most recent firmware >> update this past week. >> I've really been happy with the XW+ inverters as well as this relatively >> new communication and remote programming capability that the gateway >> promises. I would like to continue to use them, however, the difficulty of >> getting to Tech Support, no less someone that can actually help is starting >> to affect my decision process. Any suggestions are welcome. >> Thanks, Howie >> >> *Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher* >> >> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢* >> Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service >> 802-272-0004 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Sep 15 19:14:16 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 16:14:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Communications using the Conext Gateway Message-ID: You are welcome Howie! I sent some screenshots out to the list. Drop me an e-mail off list and I will get them to you. As it stands now I doubt that you should be having the issue that Sandra stated. I just have too many of these working just fine. There are some config quirks with the gateway config but it and Insight2 are working just fine. Itest it daily and monitor/config remotely. Sandra is from Outback and she knows about how good the Outback Forum is for dealing with this kind of stuff. Schneider just does not want to do that anymore. They also have said that they will do a useable interactive FAQ and get the support up to speed. I just have not seen any progress to that goal since December. I have 4 different clients with open support case numbers and no response for 15 working days. I think they are worth the wait but others here have there own mind to make up on this. I think they are a bit short on being right about their support decisions. They do care so tell them. It is reliable once running. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/conext-gateway-conext-insight-2-product-feedback/ [1] DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [3] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 13:03:57 -0400, Howie Michaelson wrote: Thanks Dave et al for chiming in on this issue, and getting Sandra's attention. The Gateway is set to use DHCP, I hardly ever set a static IP for just the reasons stated. I didn't put together the firmware upgrade with the failure of communication - the process has been so tedious i"ve lost track of the order of events at this point, but the current firmware is 1.04. As Sandra confirmed, the firmware update is likely to be the route of the lack of communication. I guess I can only wait for the new update.😰😠. I will update the list after things settle out (hopefully). Howie On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 10:32 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Howie, So CI2 worked until you did a gateway firmware update? Can you verify that 1.04 firmware is running on the gateway and check my screenshot. I cc'd Sandra on this. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [6] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 23:07:11 -0400, Howie Michaelson wrote: I have a net metered battery backup Dual stack XW Pro with a Conext Gateway. The Gateway is communicating on the Xanbus netwark and I'm able to read and write to the inverters through the gateway as long as I'm connected to it through the local area network. I was also able to register the Gateway on the Insight2 website which has retained some of the iniial data. However, shortly thereafter the gateway seems to have stopped communicating with the insight server, or at least the server has stopped showing the gateway as connected. I know there is internet access because everything else on the LAN has connectivity. Schneider support not only has been having ridiculously impossible wait times, but when I do get through to them, they are of no help with this issue. I've made my way to tier 3 support, but that has not helped in this matter. Does anyone know if there is a trick or some reason why the gateway would stop communicating out to the Insight2 server. I've updated all the firmware of the schneider products. This has allowed me to actually have the gateway start working properly, based on the most recent firmware update this past week. I've really been happy with the XW+ inverters as well as this relatively new communication and remote programming capability that the gateway promises. I would like to continue to use them, however, the difficulty of getting to Tech Support, no less someone that can actually help is starting to affect my decision process. Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson SUN CATCHER NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Solar Electric Systems Sales ">802-272-0004 -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] List rules ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [13] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [14] text 209 813 0060 -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [15] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [16] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] https://solar.schneider-electric.com/conext-gateway-conext-insight-2-product-feedback/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [7] mailto:Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [14] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [15] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [16] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun Sep 15 20:38:23 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 17:38:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults In-Reply-To: <1be16cec-dedb-464d-0e04-dfe086a2781b@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <9bf0d442481c01b7d9e390a1e9ba1dcd22c9ece1@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2eea28ef-67f5-f66c-a92f-5bf9bfe8763c@psln.com> <01302bce1a016e0a41f42fb9077caa5e@127.0.0.1> <1be16cec-dedb-464d-0e04-dfe086a2781b@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <96bdec7c-2c08-5f90-94f8-38ef35048877@psln.com> I've only had the "tapping" method work on SB-22 inverters, not on -40 inverters.  You gotta log on to the machine which I think you can only do onsite.  Has anyone ever done a reset of the 8206 from the portal? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 9/15/2019 12:36 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Hey Folks, > > How do you clear an 8206 from a SB7.7-US?  the manual says tap on the > cover within 10 seconds of error message.  That's not working. > > Does that tap then set it up for the next restart or is it supposed to > clear it right away - I've tried restarting again to no avail. > > When I tap right after the message appears it simply toggles to the > next screen. > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > > Mac Lewis wrote on 9/6/19 7:14 AM: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> You may be aware of this but the -92R firmware supposedly has >> addressed the arc fault issue for the US-40 inverters. See here for >> the download: >> https://www.sma-america.com/service-support/downloads.html  It fixed >> an arc fault issue for me yesterday at least.  Bring a thumb drive, >> the update process took about an hour to perform. >> >> On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 10:40 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> > wrote: >> >> Same up here in the southern sierra. I get calls from ABB and a >> few from SMA to look at systems that people far away installed >> and as a local 3rd party it can save some money. Whatever they >> quote me I triple the price. 1/3 up front and the rest when it is >> done. ABB is really slow with payment. I think they sold their >> inverter business? Sunpower is a great panel but they have had >> some bad runs. Probably why there are so many new/used panels on >> the secondary market. They are great for Offgrid ground arrays >> and no AFD. >> >> On Tue, 3 Sep 2019 09:52:19 -0400, Dave Tedeyan >> > wrote: >> >>> Chris, >>> Sunpower has taken some responsibility on some of our older >>> Sunpower systems that are arc faulting. We tell them that a >>> system is arc faulting, and then they insist on sending up a 3rd >>> party contractor to inspect the system and potentially install >>> what they call "Tigo Diodes". I am still not exactly sure what >>> that is. It also seems to take them months to send anyone to >>> upstate NY, as we have a bunch of customers that have been >>> waiting months for the 3rd party contractor to come take a look. >>> You likely could only follow this route though if the system was >>> installed by a Sunpower dealer and you are a Sunpower dealer >>> yourself. If the original system was from a Sunpower dealer, you >>> can also have the customer call Sunpower directly. >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >>> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >>> >>> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> o. 607.277.1118 x121  f. 607.277.2119 >>> www.taitem.com >>> Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 200 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Sun Sep 15 20:54:22 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 20:54:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults In-Reply-To: <96bdec7c-2c08-5f90-94f8-38ef35048877@psln.com> References: <9bf0d442481c01b7d9e390a1e9ba1dcd22c9ece1@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2eea28ef-67f5-f66c-a92f-5bf9bfe8763c@psln.com> <01302bce1a016e0a41f42fb9077caa5e@127.0.0.1> <1be16cec-dedb-464d-0e04-dfe086a2781b@villagepowerdesign.com> <96bdec7c-2c08-5f90-94f8-38ef35048877@psln.com> Message-ID: I am fairly certain you cannot reset through the portal, unfortunately. I have done the "rapid whack method" many times. Feels kind of strange, but works well. The message must be displayed for that to work though. So if you already reset the inverter, you have to wait for the error to show up again. Cheers, Dave On Sun, Sep 15, 2019, 20:33 frenergy wrote: > I've only had the "tapping" method work on SB-22 inverters, not on -40 > inverters. You gotta log on to the machine which I think you can only do > onsite. Has anyone ever done a reset of the 8206 from the portal? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 9/15/2019 12:36 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > Hey Folks, > > How do you clear an 8206 from a SB7.7-US? the manual says tap on the > cover within 10 seconds of error message. That's not working. > > Does that tap then set it up for the next restart or is it supposed to > clear it right away - I've tried restarting again to no avail. > > When I tap right after the message appears it simply toggles to the next > screen. > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > > Mac Lewis wrote on 9/6/19 7:14 AM: > > Hello Wrenches, > > You may be aware of this but the -92R firmware supposedly has addressed > the arc fault issue for the US-40 inverters. See here for the download: > https://www.sma-america.com/service-support/downloads.html It fixed an > arc fault issue for me yesterday at least. Bring a thumb drive, the update > process took about an hour to perform. > > On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 10:40 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> Same up here in the southern sierra. I get calls from ABB and a few from >> SMA to look at systems that people far away installed and as a local 3rd >> party it can save some money. Whatever they quote me I triple the price. >> 1/3 up front and the rest when it is done. ABB is really slow with payment. >> I think they sold their inverter business? Sunpower is a great panel but >> they have had some bad runs. Probably why there are so many new/used panels >> on the secondary market. They are great for Offgrid ground arrays and no >> AFD. >> >> On Tue, 3 Sep 2019 09:52:19 -0400, Dave Tedeyan >> wrote: >> >> Chris, >> Sunpower has taken some responsibility on some of our older Sunpower >> systems that are arc faulting. We tell them that a system is arc faulting, >> and then they insist on sending up a 3rd party contractor to inspect the >> system and potentially install what they call "Tigo Diodes". I am still not >> exactly sure what that is. It also seems to take them months to send anyone >> to upstate NY, as we have a bunch of customers that have been waiting >> months for the 3rd party contractor to come take a look. You likely could >> only follow this route though if the system was installed by a Sunpower >> dealer and you are a Sunpower dealer yourself. If the original system was >> from a Sunpower dealer, you can also have the customer call Sunpower >> directly. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> >> Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-927143668480044172_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 200 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Sun Sep 15 20:54:52 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 20:54:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults In-Reply-To: <96bdec7c-2c08-5f90-94f8-38ef35048877@psln.com> References: <9bf0d442481c01b7d9e390a1e9ba1dcd22c9ece1@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2eea28ef-67f5-f66c-a92f-5bf9bfe8763c@psln.com> <01302bce1a016e0a41f42fb9077caa5e@127.0.0.1> <1be16cec-dedb-464d-0e04-dfe086a2781b@villagepowerdesign.com> <96bdec7c-2c08-5f90-94f8-38ef35048877@psln.com> Message-ID: <9c1f7625-4f54-8652-83f8-b40b573d17bb@villagepowerdesign.com> I did finally get it to clear using taps but it was a lot of tapping. 3 taps after the second restart with blue light blinking did it - or maybe that was a coincidence - and it just decided to clear then. Bill - I did try clearing it through the Data Manager M (EnnexOS) but there didn't appear to be any place to clear it - nor update the firmware either that I could find. I was in the process of logging into the machine itself onsite when I tried the taps - good thing cause I misplaced the installer log-in! Next step was PUK - yuk! And the "source" of the arc-fault was not wiring or connectors - it was I had turned on and off the DC disconnect as I was making sure Neurio worked - a guick on and off again inadvertently (changed my mind midstream as to which I wanted)  That was enough to trip the arc-fault! SMA if you are listening - can't you make this a bit easier? Having to reset passwords by contacting SMA - that's a major on top of all the arc-fault pain we are feeling! Thanks all, Jeff frenergy wrote on 9/15/19 8:38 PM: > I've only had the "tapping" method work on SB-22 inverters, not on -40 > inverters.  You gotta log on to the machine which I think you can only > do onsite.  Has anyone ever done a reset of the 8206 from the portal? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > On 9/15/2019 12:36 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >> Hey Folks, >> >> How do you clear an 8206 from a SB7.7-US?  the manual says tap on the >> cover within 10 seconds of error message.  That's not working. >> >> Does that tap then set it up for the next restart or is it supposed >> to clear it right away - I've tried restarting again to no avail. >> >> When I tap right after the message appears it simply toggles to the >> next screen. >> >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> >> Mac Lewis wrote on 9/6/19 7:14 AM: >> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> You may be aware of this but the -92R firmware supposedly has >>> addressed the arc fault issue for the US-40 inverters. See here for >>> the download: >>> https://www.sma-america.com/service-support/downloads.html  It fixed >>> an arc fault issue for me yesterday at least.  Bring a thumb drive, >>> the update process took about an hour to perform. >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 10:40 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Same up here in the southern sierra. I get calls from ABB and a >>> few from SMA to look at systems that people far away installed >>> and as a local 3rd party it can save some money. Whatever they >>> quote me I triple the price. 1/3 up front and the rest when it >>> is done. ABB is really slow with payment. I think they sold >>> their inverter business? Sunpower is a great panel but they have >>> had some bad runs. Probably why there are so many new/used >>> panels on the secondary market. They are great for Offgrid >>> ground arrays and no AFD. >>> >>> On Tue, 3 Sep 2019 09:52:19 -0400, Dave Tedeyan >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> Chris, >>>> Sunpower has taken some responsibility on some of our older >>>> Sunpower systems that are arc faulting. We tell them that a >>>> system is arc faulting, and then they insist on sending up a >>>> 3rd party contractor to inspect the system and potentially >>>> install what they call "Tigo Diodes". I am still not exactly >>>> sure what that is. It also seems to take them months to send >>>> anyone to upstate NY, as we have a bunch of customers that have >>>> been waiting months for the 3rd party contractor to come take a >>>> look. You likely could only follow this route though if the >>>> system was installed by a Sunpower dealer and you are a >>>> Sunpower dealer yourself. If the original system was from a >>>> Sunpower dealer, you can also have the customer call Sunpower >>>> directly. >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >>>> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >>>> >>>> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>> o. 607.277.1118 x121  f. 607.277.2119 >>>> www.taitem.com >>>> > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Avast logo > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 200 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Mon Sep 16 09:33:00 2019 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 09:33:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA phantom arc faults In-Reply-To: <9c1f7625-4f54-8652-83f8-b40b573d17bb@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <9bf0d442481c01b7d9e390a1e9ba1dcd22c9ece1@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2eea28ef-67f5-f66c-a92f-5bf9bfe8763c@psln.com> <01302bce1a016e0a41f42fb9077caa5e@127.0.0.1> <1be16cec-dedb-464d-0e04-dfe086a2781b@villagepowerdesign.com> <96bdec7c-2c08-5f90-94f8-38ef35048877@psln.com> <9c1f7625-4f54-8652-83f8-b40b573d17bb@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: If you are using EnnexOS you can clear remotely. Select the device with the issue, then config, then parameter. Filter by 'AFCI'. Turn off. Wait a few minutes, turn back on. I wouldn't recommend doing this unless you're certain its a false arc-fault. Matt On 2019-09-15 20:54, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > I did finally get it to clear using taps but it was a lot of tapping. 3 taps after the second restart with blue light blinking did it - or maybe that was a coincidence - and it just decided to clear then. > > Bill - I did try clearing it through the Data Manager M (EnnexOS) but there didn't appear to be any place to clear it - nor update the firmware either that I could find. > > I was in the process of logging into the machine itself onsite when I tried the taps - good thing cause I misplaced the installer log-in! Next step was PUK - yuk! > > And the "source" of the arc-fault was not wiring or connectors - it was I had turned on and off the DC disconnect as I was making sure Neurio worked - a guick on and off again inadvertently (changed my mind midstream as to which I wanted) That was enough to trip the arc-fault! > SMA if you are listening - can't you make this a bit easier? Having to reset passwords by contacting SMA - that's a major on top of all the arc-fault pain we are feeling! > > Thanks > Jeff > > frenergy wrote on 9/15/19 8:38 PM: > > I've only had the "tapping" method work on SB-22 inverters, not on -40 inverters. You gotta log on to the machine which I think you can only do onsite. Has anyone ever done a reset of the 8206 from the portal? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net [1] > > On 9/15/2019 12:36 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Folks, > > How do you clear an 8206 from a SB7.7-US? the manual says tap on the cover within 10 seconds of error message. That's not working. > > Does that tap then set it up for the next restart or is it supposed to clear it right away - I've tried restarting again to no avail. > > When I tap right after the message appears it simply toggles to the next screen. > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > > Mac Lewis wrote on 9/6/19 7:14 AM: > > Hello Wrenches, > > You may be aware of this but the -92R firmware supposedly has addressed the arc fault issue for the US-40 inverters. See here for the download: https://www.sma-america.com/service-support/downloads.html It fixed an arc fault issue for me yesterday at least. Bring a thumb drive, the update process took about an hour to perform. > > On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 10:40 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Same up here in the southern sierra. I get calls from ABB and a few from SMA to look at systems that people far away installed and as a local 3rd party it can save some money. Whatever they quote me I triple the price. 1/3 up front and the rest when it is done. ABB is really slow with payment. I think they sold their inverter business? Sunpower is a great panel but they have had some bad runs. Probably why there are so many new/used panels on the secondary market. They are great for Offgrid ground arrays and no AFD. > > On Tue, 3 Sep 2019 09:52:19 -0400, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Chris, > Sunpower has taken some responsibility on some of our older Sunpower systems that are arc faulting. We tell them that a system is arc faulting, and then they insist on sending up a 3rd party contractor to inspect the system and potentially install what they call "Tigo Diodes". I am still not exactly sure what that is. It also seems to take them months to send anyone to upstate NY, as we have a bunch of customers that have been waiting months for the 3rd party contractor to come take a look. You likely could only follow this route though if the system was installed by a Sunpower dealer and you are a Sunpower dealer yourself. If the original system was from a Sunpower dealer, you can also have the customer call Sunpower directly. > > Cheers, > Dave > > DAVE TEDEYAN, PE > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com [2] Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [1] ------------------------- [5] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com [5] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [3] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [4] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [3] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [4] -- Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions, LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at sesre.com Links: ------ [1] http://www.frenergy.net [2] http://www.taitem.com [3] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 200 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarwrench at asis.com Tue Sep 17 15:14:10 2019 From: solarwrench at asis.com (Kelly Larson) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 12:14:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Good Tablets for the Solar Installer Message-ID: <8aee763c-82a1-b142-8553-30eccc0515a6@asis.com> Esteemed wrenches, I am looking to buy a PC tablet/laptop for testing in the field. I will be using a Solmetric PVA, Seaward 210 and Survey, excel spreadsheet, internet, and email. I also would like to be able to read and annotate pdfs. Suggestions?  What do you use?  What are the advantages and shortcomings of your device? Thank you for your response in advance! Kelly ~~~~~~~~~~~ Kelly Larson Electrical Engineer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™ NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™ IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 SolarKelly.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Sep 17 15:15:52 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 12:15:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Good Tablets for the Solar Installer In-Reply-To: <8aee763c-82a1-b142-8553-30eccc0515a6@asis.com> References: <8aee763c-82a1-b142-8553-30eccc0515a6@asis.com> Message-ID: Dell laptop, On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:14 PM Kelly Larson wrote: > Esteemed wrenches, > > I am looking to buy a PC tablet/laptop for testing in the field. I will > be using a Solmetric PVA, Seaward 210 and Survey, excel spreadsheet, > internet, and email. > > I also would like to be able to read and annotate pdfs. > > Suggestions? What do you use? What are the advantages and shortcomings > of your device? > > Thank you for your response in advance! > > Kelly > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Kelly Larson > Electrical Engineer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ > NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™ > NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™ > IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV > CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 > SolarKelly.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 17 15:48:45 2019 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 09:48:45 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Good Tablets for the Solar Installer In-Reply-To: <8aee763c-82a1-b142-8553-30eccc0515a6@asis.com> References: <8aee763c-82a1-b142-8553-30eccc0515a6@asis.com> Message-ID: We are transitioning from Dell laptops to Surface Pro's with cell service. The flexibility of these units in the field seems to be unrivaled. *James B. Rudolph* *Hawai'i Unified* *Director of Energy* *ES Electrician # 10816* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* *808.594.9969* On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 9:14 AM Kelly Larson wrote: > Esteemed wrenches, > > I am looking to buy a PC tablet/laptop for testing in the field. I will > be using a Solmetric PVA, Seaward 210 and Survey, excel spreadsheet, > internet, and email. > > I also would like to be able to read and annotate pdfs. > > Suggestions? What do you use? What are the advantages and shortcomings > of your device? > > Thank you for your response in advance! > > Kelly > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Kelly Larson > Electrical Engineer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ > NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™ > NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™ > IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV > CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 > SolarKelly.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Sep 17 15:24:28 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 12:24:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Good Tablets for the Solar Installer In-Reply-To: <8aee763c-82a1-b142-8553-30eccc0515a6@asis.com> References: <8aee763c-82a1-b142-8553-30eccc0515a6@asis.com> Message-ID: <54bc22016c6e4d832271fe18ff17ac4d@mail.gmail.com> Kelly: I really like the tablet I use. My criteria are: 1. Windows based with full computer capabilities. 2. Portable. 3. Reliable. 4. Decent storage size. I chose the Microsoft Surface Go. Out of the box it checks all of the boxes except 4. I overcame the latter by installing a 128G micro SD card. There is a trick to mapping Dropbox to an external card but that was resolved and I have been very happy with the tablet. I did purchase an aftermarket charger to provide charging in the field. That unit is a Battpower Multifunction Travel Charger. You will also need some type of USB C hub for reading SD cards and USB drives. Top that off with an HDMI adapter for presentations and trainings and you have a complete kit. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kelly Larson *Sent:* Tuesday, September 17, 2019 12:14 PM *To:* RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Good Tablets for the Solar Installer Esteemed wrenches, I am looking to buy a PC tablet/laptop for testing in the field. I will be using a Solmetric PVA, Seaward 210 and Survey, excel spreadsheet, internet, and email. I also would like to be able to read and annotate pdfs. Suggestions? What do you use? What are the advantages and shortcomings of your device? Thank you for your response in advance! Kelly ~~~~~~~~~~~ Kelly Larson Electrical Engineer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™ NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™ IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 SolarKelly.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Sep 17 16:08:48 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 13:08:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Good Tablets for the Solar Installer In-Reply-To: References: <8aee763c-82a1-b142-8553-30eccc0515a6@asis.com> Message-ID: Kelly By the time you buy all the extras vs a basic laptop fewer items to carry and loose. I do programming in Hawaii and California and my Dell still can do e everything needed and a lot less money but that's just me "KISS" On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:02 PM James Rudolph wrote: > We are transitioning from Dell laptops to Surface Pro's with cell service. > The flexibility of these units in the field seems to be unrivaled. > > > > *James B. Rudolph* > > *Hawai'i Unified* > > *Director of Energy* > > *ES Electrician # 10816* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* > > *808.594.9969* > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 9:14 AM Kelly Larson wrote: > >> Esteemed wrenches, >> >> I am looking to buy a PC tablet/laptop for testing in the field. I will >> be using a Solmetric PVA, Seaward 210 and Survey, excel spreadsheet, >> internet, and email. >> >> I also would like to be able to read and annotate pdfs. >> >> Suggestions? What do you use? What are the advantages and shortcomings >> of your device? >> >> Thank you for your response in advance! >> >> Kelly >> >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Kelly Larson >> Electrical Engineer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™ >> NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™ >> IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV >> CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 >> SolarKelly.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Sep 17 16:57:37 2019 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 16:57:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strategies for staged startup of appliances In-Reply-To: References: <3B7D136F-56A0-42F2-B109-F09196892309@gmail.com> <56AC8C4F-396B-493D-ACF6-57F4FED4E278@gmail.com> <4088a9543bd42545c111532a8b6e2de4@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hey Dave, Sorry for the delay to your question on the ASCO. Yes the 185 is the one I use either with a service entrance rated CB or without. You can adjust time so in a power outage the transfer is less than 2 seconds. Have had zero issues since switching to them over 10 years ago. Christopher On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:17 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I'll let you all know once we sort this out. > > A series of blade type disconnects could work. I'm not doing the AC > distribution past the inverters, but I need to consult with the electrical > contractor so I'm driving the bus at this point. Some combination of manual > and automated controls should work. > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 10:10 PM Jay wrote: > >> We don’t know how you have the AC distribution set up. >> >> If you have a main that then distributes to sub panels, how about relays >> on delay timers that go to each sub. 3-5 seconds would be more than enough. >> >> Or mechanical discos with simple instructions of delay between each. >> But yea people have to read and comprehend and it’s probably dark so >> maybe the delay timers. >> >> Let us know what you end up using >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 12, 2019, at 3:04 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < >> offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: >> >> Jason, any chance of one of the "help" being made knowledgeable to manage >> this? In a way this is what I do for my offgrid clients. If they won't, I >> walk away because it is just to complicated at this stage in RE. Hoping it >> will change! >> >> I get them up to speed on managing loads and understanding what is going >> on with the power. This saves me from the headache. Explain that it can >> save them quite a bit of money also. I do not envy you and income is >> important. Good Luck! >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 17:39:13 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> I definitely understand that I can't prevent it 100%, but I can surely >> mitigate the likelihood. It's highly unlikely that all 10 refrigerators >> will all start simultaneously based on temperature with the well pump and >> two air conditioners except when power is first applied. Moreso than the >> ATS changeover, I'm concerned about scenarios where everything is >> completely off at the property and the inverter breakers are flipped on. >> Then I'm essentially guaranteed I'll have 15 motors all trying to start at >> the same time. I'm planning 27-32kW of capacity, which may well be enough >> depending on how gentle the HVAC units start, but I want to have a strategy >> in case things don't go as planned. >> >> I was thinking that the ATS would be a good strategy to trigger time >> delays because it would be implemented whether it was a startup from no >> power source or during power source transfer. >> >> The challenge here is that more than half of these loads will be used >> maybe a few weeks a year. I'm tasked with designing a system that will >> operate efficiently with both high and low occupancy levels, and it's only >> responsible of me to investigate ways to reduce the budget requirement for >> the total system. Money is probably not a factor here, but bigger, bigger, >> bigger also means bigger headaches when you have 8 inverters to maintain >> rather than 6 or 4. >> >> I do have some other thoughts like ensuring the well pump doesn't turn on >> while the Air Conditioning is running. Since it's on a float switch with >> ample at-grade storage, I don't really care if it runs only at periods of >> light load. >> >> You do have a point about turning refrigerators on and off by switching >> power. I might look into ways to cut the compressor using controls in the >> refrigerators instead. That will be a conversation with Sub-Z to see if >> they care that power is cycled during operation. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 8:16 PM Jay wrote: >> >>> >>> You've got to plan on them all starting at once anyway. You can't expect >>> that it'll never happen. >>> >>> And really how do you prevent it. The refrigerators and AC's are on all >>> the time waiting for the thermostat to activate. And it's not good to turn >>> a working fridge on/off especially is the compressor is running. >>> >>> Bigger loads, bigger inverters, bigger dollars. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>> That is what I was thinking, but how will the contactor coils "know" >>> when the ATS switches to inverter power. I'm thinking I need to use an AUX >>> relay or a series of relays to produce the desired result. I don't think it >>> will be necessary when going from solar to generator in this case, but >>> maybe. I guess the question is how to activate the time delay any time the >>> ATS switches over. That would be the easiest solution maybe. >>> >>> I'm probably looking at a quad Conext XW+ system here. Even at over >>> 100A @ 240V continuous rating I'm anticipating some startup issues with all >>> those motors (I forgot to mention well and pressure pumps also!) >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM Michael Morningstar < >>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Put the loads on contractors, control the contractors with adjustable >>>> time delay relays. Stagger the timing. >>>> >>>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> In an off-grid situation I'm looking for a strategy to manage transfer >>>> from generator power to inverter power because I have a lot of high startup >>>> load appliances planned for a system. Think 8 mini-refrigerators, one sub-z >>>> large refrigerator, and an under-cabinet ice maker, not to mention air >>>> conditioning. I would like to start these loads in stages if they all call >>>> to start up immediately upon system startup or during ATS switch over. Any >>>> ideas? >>>> >>>> I guess while I'm on the subject I should ask about my eye-roll, >>>> keep-me-up-a-night, giving-me-heartburn problem with this ice maker. It's >>>> going to be outdoors in Florida and they expect it to make 25-50 pounds of >>>> ice per day. I am finding it really hard to estimate energy use for this >>>> appliance. Any ideas (other than the obvious "don't do it" answer)? >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Sep 17 17:18:55 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 14:18:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Good Tablets for the Solar Installer In-Reply-To: References: <8aee763c-82a1-b142-8553-30eccc0515a6@asis.com> Message-ID: We've experimented around with various devices, and I'll agree that the Microsoft Surface line is a good choice. You can find 3rd party heavy duty protective cases on Amazon that are worthwhile if you plan on using it in the field. Also note that the current Surface Pro 6th gen product only has one USB type A port so you'll likely need a few dongles to get your work done. I also have a Surface Go and like it. It is small, light, has a USB C port, and gets most of my work done BUT it is slow. Microsoft is holding a product release event on October 2nd that will likely have new surface products. I would wait for that if you want to either get the latest and greatest or wait for the older generation to go on sale. Costco had a good deal for a Surface Pro 6 with pen and keyboard not too long ago. August Luminalt On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 1:09 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Kelly > By the time you buy all the extras vs a basic laptop fewer items to carry > and loose. > I do programming in Hawaii and California and my Dell still can do e > everything needed and a lot less money but that's just me "KISS" > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:02 PM James Rudolph > wrote: > >> We are transitioning from Dell laptops to Surface Pro's with cell >> service. >> The flexibility of these units in the field seems to be unrivaled. >> >> >> >> *James B. Rudolph* >> >> *Hawai'i Unified* >> >> *Director of Energy* >> >> *ES Electrician # 10816* >> >> *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* >> >> *808.594.9969* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 9:14 AM Kelly Larson >> wrote: >> >>> Esteemed wrenches, >>> >>> I am looking to buy a PC tablet/laptop for testing in the field. I will >>> be using a Solmetric PVA, Seaward 210 and Survey, excel spreadsheet, >>> internet, and email. >>> >>> I also would like to be able to read and annotate pdfs. >>> >>> Suggestions? What do you use? What are the advantages and shortcomings >>> of your device? >>> >>> Thank you for your response in advance! >>> >>> Kelly >>> >>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Kelly Larson >>> Electrical Engineer >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™ >>> NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™ >>> IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV >>> CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 >>> SolarKelly.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Sep 17 21:08:34 2019 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 19:08:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New hydro design Message-ID: <002701d56dbd$98a786a0$c9f693e0$@OasisMontana.com> Dear techies: I have a fellow with an interesting project - a new type of micro-hydro design to assist with irrigation systems. I'm looking to give his information to some engineer who can help with the magnets and coil design. If you have any suggestions who might be able to assist this fellow, please contact me off list. Sincerely, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Sep 17 20:57:54 2019 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 18:57:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Facial or transparent modules In-Reply-To: <8da96283852731b028461fbd9096f8f0@127.0.0.1> References: <8da96283852731b028461fbd9096f8f0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <000901d56dbc$1b1ca900$5155fb00$@OasisMontana.com> So, does anyone actually know of any distributor offering bi-facial modules? I know of some manufacturers who claim to have them, but I’m not finding them in the U.S. And I don’t want to buy a container, just enough for a residential system…like 16 or so modules in the ~300W range. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 9:11 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Facial or transparent modules I have used these below. The last final issue of solar pro had a great article on bifacial. On a tracker in the snow or sand they are pretty amazing if done right. The old Sanyo bi facials had water problems. https://www.prismsolar.com/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 10:38:48 -0500, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: I'm curious about this, too. I'm looking for something that accepts MLPE bolted to the frame and has a good wind rating. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 2:19 AM Wayne Irwin > wrote: Does anyone have a source for bi-facial or double glass modules with frames? Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Sep 18 09:21:34 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:21:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Washing Machine Message-ID: <1568812961090.2061d36c6fa60cbb@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, For years, is seemed like the best off grid washing machine was the Staber. I've read of complaints about cheap plastic parts breaking. The price tag on this machine is very high for something that isn't mechanically solid. Are there any good options for an affordable, low power, low water usage, resilient, repairable machine with a minimum of electronics on the market? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Sep 18 11:40:27 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:40:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Washing Machine In-Reply-To: <1568812961090.2061d36c6fa60cbb@redwoodalliance.org> References: <1568812961090.2061d36c6fa60cbb@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Wrenches I have been in the renewable industry for a very many years and l dont quite understand why someone would spend way to much on a refrigerator or washer or even range when they have their own issues. I have always suggested that my customers to buy a name brand machine, efficiency always a factor of course. Then invest in more batteries, modules, inverter etc. instead. In the long game it's a better investment with fewer headaches. Granted in some cases a propane refrigerator might be better but this is very seldom. But that's just me. Jerry On Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 7:13 AM Drake wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > For years, is seemed like the best off grid washing machine was the > Staber. I've read of complaints about cheap plastic parts breaking. The > price tag on this machine is very high for something that isn't > mechanically solid. > > Are there any good options for an affordable, low power, low water usage, > resilient, repairable machine with a minimum of electronics on the market? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Sep 18 11:08:24 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 11:08:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Facial or transparent modules In-Reply-To: <000901d56dbc$1b1ca900$5155fb00$@OasisMontana.com> References: <8da96283852731b028461fbd9096f8f0@127.0.0.1> <000901d56dbc$1b1ca900$5155fb00$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: My supplier (Green Mountain Energy Supply, Burlington, Vermont - 800-639-2065) is listing the following: CANADIAN SOLAR CS3U-350PB-AG BIKU No idea if they would ship them - they usually do their own delivery... Howie On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 10:45 PM wrote: > So, does anyone actually know of* any* distributor offering bi-facial > modules? I know of some manufacturers who claim to have them, but I’m > not finding them in the U.S. And I don’t want to buy a container, just > enough for a residential system…like 16 or so modules in the ~300W range. > > > > Best, > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > *Sent:* Thursday, January 3, 2019 9:11 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Facial or transparent modules > > > > I have used these below. The last final issue of solar pro had a great > article on bifacial. On a tracker in the snow or sand they are pretty > amazing if done right. The old Sanyo bi facials had water problems. > > https://www.prismsolar.com/ > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 10:38:48 -0500, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > > I'm curious about this, too. I'm looking for something that accepts MLPE > bolted to the frame and has a good wind rating. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 2:19 AM Wayne Irwin > wrote: > > Does anyone have a source for bi-facial or double glass modules with > frames? > > > > > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Sep 18 12:14:38 2019 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 10:14:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Washing Machine In-Reply-To: <1568812961090.2061d36c6fa60cbb@redwoodalliance.org> References: <1568812961090.2061d36c6fa60cbb@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <002d01d56e3c$2c905fd0$85b11f70$@solarwork.com> Fisher PayKal -140 whr/load. Only complaint is the rinse out on a duvet cover sometimes fine, sometimes dusty still & requires a second rinse. I replaced my control board after 12 years - $160. It not fancy, has delayed start 1, 3, & 9 hours, does a superior high-speed spinout and things dry on the line or in the dryer quicker. I have run this on OB VFX & Radian inverters no issues. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 7:22 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Washing Machine Hello Wrenches, For years, is seemed like the best off grid washing machine was the Staber. I've read of complaints about cheap plastic parts breaking. The price tag on this machine is very high for something that isn't mechanically solid. Are there any good options for an affordable, low power, low water usage, resilient, repairable machine with a minimum of electronics on the market? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Sep 18 12:22:47 2019 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 10:22:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flex panels? Message-ID: <004201d56e3d$5003bba0$f00b32e0$@solarwork.com> Hey there All - I have a new client that has an over the top [$100K+] 4X4 off road camper that has glued down flex PV modules that have died, faded PCV front sheets with no output. I suggested a framed module but client in more interested in a flexible type of glue down module. Any suggestions on a flexible possibly glue down type of PV module, supplier suggestions? Thanks in advance. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Sep 18 12:24:02 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 06:24:02 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flex panels? In-Reply-To: <004201d56e3d$5003bba0$f00b32e0$@solarwork.com> References: <004201d56e3d$5003bba0$f00b32e0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: The SunPower flex line....the best one is going to find. marco On Wednesday, September 18, 2019, Dana wrote: > Hey there All – > > > > I have a new client that has an over the top [$100K+] 4X4 off road camper > that has glued down flex PV modules that have died, faded PCV front sheets > with no output. > > I suggested a framed module but client in more interested in a flexible > type of glue down module. > > > > Any suggestions on a flexible possibly glue down type of PV module, > supplier suggestions? > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Sep 18 15:24:07 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 13:24:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Washing Machine In-Reply-To: References: <1568812961090.2061d36c6fa60cbb@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <2add4bfc-faa5-c243-66af-c23cd4a2687f@solarray.com> I second Jerry's comments.  Back in the 90s, we sold Sunfrost DC fridges, DC fans, CFLs, DC Pumps, etc.  Just tons of trouble for very little benefit.  Local fridge techs wouldn't touch them, and frankly they weren't as efficient as advertised.  The closer off grid clients can be to normal, the better.  That means normal wiring, normal appliances, etc.  Then you aren't on the hook for all these other items.  I hate to say it, but they just are not as well built or thought out, as main stream appliances, and the customer (after many bitter experiences) will eventually get normal equipment. One other thing: plan on adding a LVD with a big contactor if you do have DC equipment or you'll ruin the batteries with this little detour down the "road less traveled".... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/18/19 9:40 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > I have been in the renewable industry for a very many years and l dont > quite  understand why someone would spend way to much on a > refrigerator or washer or even range when they have their own issues. > I have always suggested that my customers to buy a name brand > machine,  efficiency always a factor of course.  Then invest in more > batteries, modules, inverter etc. instead. In the long game it's a > better investment with fewer headaches. Granted in some cases a > propane refrigerator might be better but this is very seldom. But > that's just me. > Jerry > > On Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 7:13 AM Drake > > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > For years, is seemed like the best off grid washing machine was > the Staber. I've read of complaints about cheap plastic parts > breaking. The price tag on this machine is very high for something > that isn't mechanically solid. > > Are there any good options for an affordable, low power, low water > usage, resilient, repairable machine with a minimum of electronics > on the market? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Wed Sep 18 15:55:52 2019 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 12:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Washing Machine In-Reply-To: <2add4bfc-faa5-c243-66af-c23cd4a2687f@solarray.com> References: <1568812961090.2061d36c6fa60cbb@redwoodalliance.org> <2add4bfc-faa5-c243-66af-c23cd4a2687f@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1568836552.464515862@webmail.finestplanet.com> ahem... i need to correct this with my personal experience. perhaps this is an exception, but my 24 year old sunfrost RF-12 is still going strong, 100% problem free... and it gets better efficiency than advertised: it uses 390 watt hours/ day = 142 kWh/year while solar pv is less expensive than it used to be it is still made with hydrocarbon powered mining and manufacturing. call me "old school", but solar powering waste is not green. todd On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 12:24pm, "Ray" said: I second Jerry's comments. Back in the 90s, we sold Sunfrost DC fridges, DC fans, CFLs, DC Pumps, etc. Just tons of trouble for very little benefit. Local fridge techs wouldn't touch them, and frankly they weren't as efficient as advertised. The closer off grid clients can be to normal, the better. That means normal wiring, normal appliances, etc. Then you aren't on the hook for all these other items. I hate to say it, but they just are not as well built or thought out, as main stream appliances, and the customer (after many bitter experiences) will eventually get normal equipment. One other thing: plan on adding a LVD with a big contactor if you do have DC equipment or you'll ruin the batteries with this little detour down the "road less traveled".... Ray WaltersRemote Solar303 505-8760 On 9/18/19 9:40 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches I have been in the renewable industry for a very many years and l dont quite understand why someone would spend way to much on a refrigerator or washer or even range when they have their own issues. I have always suggested that my customers to buy a name brand machine, efficiency always a factor of course. Then invest in more batteries, modules, inverter etc. instead. In the long game it's a better investment with fewer headaches. Granted in some cases a propane refrigerator might be better but this is very seldom. But that's just me. Jerry On Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 7:13 AM Drake <[ drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org ]( mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org )> wrote: Hello Wrenches, For years, is seemed like the best off grid washing machine was the Staber. I've read of complaints about cheap plastic parts breaking. The price tag on this machine is very high for something that isn't mechanically solid. Are there any good options for an affordable, low power, low water usage, resilient, repairable machine with a minimum of electronics on the market? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 [ http://athens-electric.com/ ]( http://athens-electric.com/ ) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ) List rules & etiquette: [ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )Change listserver email address & settings:[ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org )List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html )List rules & etiquette:[ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm )Check out or update participant bios:[ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Sep 18 16:15:54 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 14:15:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Washing Machine In-Reply-To: <1568836552.464515862@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1568812961090.2061d36c6fa60cbb@redwoodalliance.org> <2add4bfc-faa5-c243-66af-c23cd4a2687f@solarray.com> <1568836552.464515862@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <9244a2c3-7f06-09c9-589d-3e26b2a61fda@solarray.com> I too have a few Sunfrosts that are still with happy customers. We just had too many failures to justify the high cost overall. On the super efficient fridge topic:  I use the Backwoods Solar deep freeze conversion kit, which gets equally amazing energy numbers for about $500 total.  It just uses a standard, off the shelf chest style deep freeze, with a thermostat that operates it at 40 deg F.  If anything goes wrong, nothing on the freezer is altered, so warranty and local service are still available. https://www.backwoodssolar.com/products/appliances/refrigerators-freezers/external-thermostat Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/18/19 1:55 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > > ahem... i need to correct this with my personal experience. > > perhaps this is an exception, but my 24 year old sunfrost RF-12 is > still going strong, 100% problem free... > > and it gets better efficiency than advertised: > it uses 390 watt hours/ day = 142 kWh/year > > while solar pv is less expensive than it used to be it is still made > with hydrocarbon powered mining and manufacturing. > > call me "old school", but solar powering waste is not green. > > todd > > > > On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 12:24pm, "Ray" said: > > I second Jerry's comments.  Back in the 90s, we sold Sunfrost DC > fridges, DC fans, CFLs, DC Pumps, etc.  Just tons of trouble for very > little benefit.  Local fridge techs wouldn't touch them, and frankly > they weren't as efficient as advertised.  The closer off grid clients > can be to normal, the better.  That means normal wiring, normal > appliances, etc.  Then you aren't on the hook for all these other > items.  I hate to say it, but they just are not as well built or > thought out, as main stream appliances, and the customer (after many > bitter experiences) will eventually get normal equipment. > > One other thing: plan on adding a LVD with a big contactor if you do > have DC equipment or you'll ruin the batteries with this little detour > down the "road less traveled".... > > Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 > > On 9/18/19 9:40 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > I have been in the renewable industry for a very many years and l > dont quite  understand why someone would spend way to much on a > refrigerator or washer or even range when they have their own > issues. I have always suggested that my customers to buy a name > brand machine,  efficiency always a factor of course.  Then invest > in more batteries, modules, inverter etc. instead. In the long > game it's a better investment with fewer headaches. Granted in > some cases a propane refrigerator might be better but this is very > seldom. But that's just me. > Jerry > > On Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 7:13 AM Drake > > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > For years, is seemed like the best off grid washing machine > was the Staber. I've read of complaints about cheap plastic > parts breaking. The price tag on this machine is very high for > something that isn't mechanically solid. > > Are there any good options for an affordable, low power, low > water usage, resilient, repairable machine with a minimum of > electronics on the market? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by > Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check > out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Wed Sep 18 16:24:15 2019 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:24:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Washing Machine In-Reply-To: <2add4bfc-faa5-c243-66af-c23cd4a2687f@solarray.com> References: <1568812961090.2061d36c6fa60cbb@redwoodalliance.org> , <2add4bfc-faa5-c243-66af-c23cd4a2687f@solarray.com> Message-ID: I also agree with Jerry's comments. I've been installing and living off grid for over 12 years and have ALWAYS used conventional appliances (while being mindful of consumption) with no issues including pumps and mini-split AC's. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 3:24 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Washing Machine I second Jerry's comments. Back in the 90s, we sold Sunfrost DC fridges, DC fans, CFLs, DC Pumps, etc. Just tons of trouble for very little benefit. Local fridge techs wouldn't touch them, and frankly they weren't as efficient as advertised. The closer off grid clients can be to normal, the better. That means normal wiring, normal appliances, etc. Then you aren't on the hook for all these other items. I hate to say it, but they just are not as well built or thought out, as main stream appliances, and the customer (after many bitter experiences) will eventually get normal equipment. One other thing: plan on adding a LVD with a big contactor if you do have DC equipment or you'll ruin the batteries with this little detour down the "road less traveled".... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/18/19 9:40 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches I have been in the renewable industry for a very many years and l dont quite understand why someone would spend way to much on a refrigerator or washer or even range when they have their own issues. I have always suggested that my customers to buy a name brand machine, efficiency always a factor of course. Then invest in more batteries, modules, inverter etc. instead. In the long game it's a better investment with fewer headaches. Granted in some cases a propane refrigerator might be better but this is very seldom. But that's just me. Jerry On Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 7:13 AM Drake > wrote: Hello Wrenches, For years, is seemed like the best off grid washing machine was the Staber. I've read of complaints about cheap plastic parts breaking. The price tag on this machine is very high for something that isn't mechanically solid. Are there any good options for an affordable, low power, low water usage, resilient, repairable machine with a minimum of electronics on the market? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Sep 18 18:15:43 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 18:15:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flex panels? In-Reply-To: <004201d56e3d$5003bba0$f00b32e0$@solarwork.com> References: <004201d56e3d$5003bba0$f00b32e0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <7849F715-F73E-4C70-9328-FBD15E9B6ED2@swnl.net> Contact Joe Marieno @Mia Sole 707-331-4030 > On Sep 18, 2019, at 12:22 PM, Dana wrote: > > Hey there All – > > I have a new client that has an over the top [$100K+] 4X4 off road camper that has glued down flex PV modules that have died, faded PCV front sheets with no output. > I suggested a framed module but client in more interested in a flexible type of glue down module. > > Any suggestions on a flexible possibly glue down type of PV module, supplier suggestions? > Thanks in advance. > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex at blueskyenergyinc.com Wed Sep 18 20:43:36 2019 From: alex at blueskyenergyinc.com (Alex MeVay) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:43:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flex panels? In-Reply-To: <7849F715-F73E-4C70-9328-FBD15E9B6ED2@swnl.net> References: <004201d56e3d$5003bba0$f00b32e0$@solarwork.com> <7849F715-F73E-4C70-9328-FBD15E9B6ED2@swnl.net> Message-ID: Hi Dana, For these types of applications, which make up a lot of our business, we typically point customers to Solbian, who use Sunpower and other cells. I believe our more budget-minded customers have also been happy with the Renogy flex panels. Merlin Solar makes the best interconnect technology I've seen for semi-flexible panels: thin grids that cover the cells and keep things working even if the cell is shattered. I believe they do mostly B2B, but I know at least some of Solbian's panels incorporate their technology. If your customer does want to consider some framed glass panels, stick to the smaller sizes (100-160W) to reduce issues with frame flex (both the vehicle's and the panel's!). I do share your skepticism about the flex panels... While I might go flex next time for the weight savings, I have 2x 100W glass panels on my camper van, installed by the previous owner. After 7 years and 70,000 miles, many off-road, they are doing great. Out of curiosity, do you know what brand your customer's panels were and how long before they gave out? Best, Alex MeVay Blue Sky Energy * http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com Genasun * http://www.genasun.com On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:15 PM Tump wrote: > Contact Joe Marieno @Mia Sole 707-331-4030 > > On Sep 18, 2019, at 12:22 PM, Dana wrote: > > Hey there All – > > I have a new client that has an over the top [$100K+] 4X4 off road camper > that has glued down flex PV modules that have died, faded PCV front sheets > with no output. > I suggested a framed module but client in more interested in a flexible > type of glue down module. > > Any suggestions on a flexible possibly glue down type of PV module, > supplier suggestions? > Thanks in advance. > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Sep 18 23:53:49 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:53:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Off Grid Washing Machine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d575a8a-38ba-8a13-d7d2-c0fd173df187@psln.com> Drake,             After having 2 Stabers in the last 25 years, we were having too many problems with the second one (mechanically was OK but the brains were not working correctly and board replacements are pretty spendy.  So we ended up with an LG model # WM3500CW as of 3 months ago.  Made in Vietnam.             I don't remember all the energy and water specs right now but being the nerd, I'm sure they were the best.  I had already bought 2 of these for my rentals and have had no complaints.  The clothes really come out dry. The clothes washing master here says she likes it so there's a gold star. Only thing I don't like is its not made in USA.  I never asked Staber but maybe there's an extended warranty option. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 9/18/2019 6:21 AM, Drake wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > For years, is seemed like the best off grid washing machine was the > Staber. I've read of complaints about cheap plastic parts breaking. > The price tag on this machine is very high for something that isn't > mechanically solid. > > Are there any good options for an affordable, low power, low water > usage, resilient, repairable machine with a minimum of electronics on > the market? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Sep 19 10:42:31 2019 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 08:42:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flex panels? In-Reply-To: References: <004201d56e3d$5003bba0$f00b32e0$@solarwork.com> <7849F715-F73E-4C70-9328-FBD15E9B6ED2@swnl.net> Message-ID: <001c01d56ef8$792a0780$6b7e1680$@solarwork.com> No firm idea but the are definitely a Euro module as the whole camper chassis is a Euro make.. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Alex MeVay Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 6:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flex panels? Hi Dana, For these types of applications, which make up a lot of our business, we typically point customers to Solbian, who use Sunpower and other cells. I believe our more budget-minded customers have also been happy with the Renogy flex panels. Merlin Solar makes the best interconnect technology I've seen for semi-flexible panels: thin grids that cover the cells and keep things working even if the cell is shattered. I believe they do mostly B2B, but I know at least some of Solbian's panels incorporate their technology. If your customer does want to consider some framed glass panels, stick to the smaller sizes (100-160W) to reduce issues with frame flex (both the vehicle's and the panel's!). I do share your skepticism about the flex panels... While I might go flex next time for the weight savings, I have 2x 100W glass panels on my camper van, installed by the previous owner. After 7 years and 70,000 miles, many off-road, they are doing great. Out of curiosity, do you know what brand your customer's panels were and how long before they gave out? Best, Alex MeVay Blue Sky Energy * http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com Genasun * http://www.genasun.com On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:15 PM Tump > wrote: Contact Joe Marieno @Mia Sole 707-331-4030 On Sep 18, 2019, at 12:22 PM, Dana > wrote: Hey there All – I have a new client that has an over the top [$100K+] 4X4 off road camper that has glued down flex PV modules that have died, faded PCV front sheets with no output. I suggested a framed module but client in more interested in a flexible type of glue down module. Any suggestions on a flexible possibly glue down type of PV module, supplier suggestions? Thanks in advance. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Sep 19 11:14:12 2019 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 09:14:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solbian's panels ? Message-ID: <002801d56efc$e620a250$b261e6f0$@solarwork.com> Solbians website is In Italy; do they have a North American dealer? I checked the web & no contact. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Alex MeVay Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 6:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flex panels? Hi Dana, For these types of applications, which make up a lot of our business, we typically point customers to Solbian, who use Sunpower and other cells. I believe our more budget-minded customers have also been happy with the Renogy flex panels. Merlin Solar makes the best interconnect technology I've seen for semi-flexible panels: thin grids that cover the cells and keep things working even if the cell is shattered. I believe they do mostly B2B, but I know at least some of Solbian's panels incorporate their technology. If your customer does want to consider some framed glass panels, stick to the smaller sizes (100-160W) to reduce issues with frame flex (both the vehicle's and the panel's!). I do share your skepticism about the flex panels... While I might go flex next time for the weight savings, I have 2x 100W glass panels on my camper van, installed by the previous owner. After 7 years and 70,000 miles, many off-road, they are doing great. Out of curiosity, do you know what brand your customer's panels were and how long before they gave out? Best, Alex MeVay Blue Sky Energy * http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com Genasun * http://www.genasun.com On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:15 PM Tump > wrote: Contact Joe Marieno @Mia Sole 707-331-4030 On Sep 18, 2019, at 12:22 PM, Dana > wrote: Hey there All – I have a new client that has an over the top [$100K+] 4X4 off road camper that has glued down flex PV modules that have died, faded PCV front sheets with no output. I suggested a framed module but client in more interested in a flexible type of glue down module. Any suggestions on a flexible possibly glue down type of PV module, supplier suggestions? Thanks in advance. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Thu Sep 19 12:57:24 2019 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 09:57:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Good Tablets for the Solar Installer In-Reply-To: References: <8aee763c-82a1-b142-8553-30eccc0515a6@asis.com> Message-ID: Kelly. Simply, I use my phone for almost everything which is about the size of a small piece of toast these days with Samsung DeX for with bluetooth full size keyboard, mouse and HDMI display on my desk. I am able with DeX to edit a annotate pdfs, presentations, Word, Excel, micro and dc converter equipment configuration, FLIR attachment for third party inspections, irradiance, quick augmented reality survey, online meeting, email and other things. I have a Suface as secondary, I do most everything needed and a lot less as well. All the best, Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7 Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338 CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors #7035507 * Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:08 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Kelly > By the time you buy all the extras vs a basic laptop fewer items to carry > and loose. > I do programming in Hawaii and California and my Dell still can do e > everything needed and a lot less money but that's just me "KISS" > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:02 PM James Rudolph > wrote: > >> We are transitioning from Dell laptops to Surface Pro's with cell >> service. >> The flexibility of these units in the field seems to be unrivaled. >> >> >> >> *James B. Rudolph* >> >> *Hawai'i Unified* >> >> *Director of Energy* >> >> *ES Electrician # 10816* >> >> *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* >> >> *808.594.9969* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 9:14 AM Kelly Larson >> wrote: >> >>> Esteemed wrenches, >>> >>> I am looking to buy a PC tablet/laptop for testing in the field. I will >>> be using a Solmetric PVA, Seaward 210 and Survey, excel spreadsheet, >>> internet, and email. >>> >>> I also would like to be able to read and annotate pdfs. >>> >>> Suggestions? What do you use? What are the advantages and shortcomings >>> of your device? >>> >>> Thank you for your response in advance! >>> >>> Kelly >>> >>> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Kelly Larson >>> Electrical Engineer >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™ >>> NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™ >>> IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV >>> CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 >>> SolarKelly.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex at blueskyenergyinc.com Thu Sep 19 13:33:58 2019 From: alex at blueskyenergyinc.com (Alex MeVay) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 13:33:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solbian's panels ? In-Reply-To: <002801d56efc$e620a250$b261e6f0$@solarwork.com> References: <002801d56efc$e620a250$b261e6f0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Hi Dana, I know Bruce Schwab at OceanPlanet Energy brings them over: https://oceanplanetenergy.com/solar-power/ I think he might be the master distributor for the US and will likely be able to give you a trade discount. Finally, for full disclosure here, we do business with all the companies I've mentioned in this thread, save Renogy, but we do so because I believe they offer top-notch products and/or service that help our customers have a good experience with their systems overall. Like many of you, we typically get the call when anything goes wrong in the system, even if it has nothing to do with the controller (i.e., panels, wiring, fuses), so we have the same motivation to choose good partners. Alex MeVay Blue Sky Energy * http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com Genasun * http://www.genasun.com On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 11:14 AM Dana wrote: > Solbians website is In Italy; do they have a North American dealer? I > checked the web & no contact. > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Alex MeVay > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 18, 2019 6:44 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Flex panels? > > > > Hi Dana, > > > > For these types of applications, which make up a lot of our business, we > typically point customers to Solbian, who use Sunpower and other cells. I > believe our more budget-minded customers have also been happy with the > Renogy flex panels. > > > > Merlin Solar makes the best interconnect technology I've seen for > semi-flexible panels: thin grids that cover the cells and keep things > working even if the cell is shattered. I believe they do mostly B2B, but I > know at least some of Solbian's panels incorporate their technology. > > > > If your customer does want to consider some framed glass panels, stick to > the smaller sizes (100-160W) to reduce issues with frame flex (both the > vehicle's and the panel's!). > > > > I do share your skepticism about the flex panels... While I might go flex > next time for the weight savings, I have 2x 100W glass panels on my camper > van, installed by the previous owner. After 7 years and 70,000 miles, many > off-road, they are doing great. > > > > Out of curiosity, do you know what brand your customer's panels were and > how long before they gave out? > > > > Best, > > > Alex MeVay > > Blue Sky Energy * http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com > Genasun * http://www.genasun.com > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:15 PM Tump wrote: > > Contact Joe Marieno @Mia Sole 707-331-4030 > > On Sep 18, 2019, at 12:22 PM, Dana wrote: > > > > Hey there All – > > > > I have a new client that has an over the top [$100K+] 4X4 off road camper > that has glued down flex PV modules that have died, faded PCV front sheets > with no output. > > I suggested a framed module but client in more interested in a flexible > type of glue down module. > > > > Any suggestions on a flexible possibly glue down type of PV module, > supplier suggestions? > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > *Tump at swnl.net * *www.SWNL.net > * > > Solarwinds Northernlights > > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Sep 19 15:08:23 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 13:08:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <88ea1038-aa30-1acf-f047-913a98136002@solarray.com> I did some research on the modules we've used over the past 15+ years to see if we had potential mismatched connector issues. We've used Amphenol H4 connects since the advent of locking solar connectors.  We had assumed they were compatible back then. Solarworld switched from MC4 to H4 somewhere back 2013 to 2015. I didn't even notice. SW 280s through SW 300 looks like H4, while SW 270s and back to the long, skinny SW 165s are MC 4, but its not that clear, as I found a spec sheet for an SW 260 with an H4. _Conclusion: Basically we can't be sure._ Hanwa Q cell, looks like their 60 cell mods run the MC 4 or MC 4 compatible (whatever that means) while their 72 cell mods apparently use the H4/ UTX _Conclusion: Total confusion in the field._ Jinko?  They don't even list the connector type on any of the spec sheets I have for the past few years. _Conclusion: No way for a designer/ installer to know beforehand what connector to use in the field._ Basically this is a total break down of responsibility for the solar industry; a complete lack of standards. Why hasn't an organization like NEMA stepped in to standardize the connectors like all AC connectors have been, going back for over a century? I made a very wrong assumption that when our industry adopted the MC 4/ H4 locking type connectors that they were standardized and compatible.   I can only hope that my systems running at relatively low voltage (<150 vdc) will not have issues. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/4/19 4:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Just to add, l had a lab and l did testing on connectors, we found > that most of the aec issues were under low light. This appeared to be > when iradiance was low and once the irads went up the issue was less > likely, this was because the Male-female contact was not tight enough > and under lower power it would arc instead of heating up and > expanding. I used a IR Camera but could see little change due to the > plastic. > Then l used an IV curve tester and shaded partially shaded the module > after several repeat testing the connectors got warm. I would suggest > making your own connector pull out tool to check the contact > pressures. This is where you may find your problem components. It > appears that early am testing had lower volts and the inverter pushed > the current up and causes the loose connector to fail due to the lower > volts. > This testing was done both in the field 1/2 meg and lab testing > results were very close. > The modules used for testing were Trina and the field inverters were > ABB and Fronius > Sorry for the long note > Jerry > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 2:52 PM Steven Lawrence > wrote: > > Everyone, > > Just to add to this, I've seen multiple melted connectors that > couldn't be traced to anything other than mixing manufacturers.  > I've seen some connectors where you can clearly seeing arcing on > the pin itself and nowhere else.  The crimps and the housing were > fine.  I've postulated it had to do with slightly different metals > expanding/contracting at different rates.  I've made it a very > hard rule at my company to never mix manufacturers of connectors.  > When we order modules, we specifically have the PO call out the > manufacturer of the connector (can't just be "MC4 compatible").  > Typically we order that same brand of connectors, but sometimes we > end up getting 6" jumpers made by a harness company (there are > some connectors out there that can only work with #12 wire. Can't > use them on #10 homeruns).  It's drastically cut down on the > number of melted connectors.  We've averaged maybe 1 or 2 on 6MW > projects over a year with this hard requirement versus 100+ we had > on a 1MW rooftop project that mixed multiple manufacturers. > > Steven Lawrence > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bryan at pv-cables.com Thu Sep 19 15:57:06 2019 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 12:57:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: <88ea1038-aa30-1acf-f047-913a98136002@solarray.com> References: <88ea1038-aa30-1acf-f047-913a98136002@solarray.com> Message-ID: <00af01d56f24$6a1e15c0$3e5a4140$@pv-cables.com> Ray, Solarworld went from using MC4 connectors, then to Kostal KSK4 connectors, then Amphenol H4, and finally Amphenol UTX connectors. The cross mating with the KSK4 connectors had the most issues and we assembled a lot of adapters for end users and installers. Back in 2016, we were talking with Solarworld about the Amphenol UTX/H4 to MC4 connections failing. (I attached the Compatibility letter that Solarworld was providing their customers, as well as the Amphenol Compatibility documents ) Back then, I was mating connectors and grinding away the plastic housings to determine the terminal overlap of cross mated connectors. Here are my notes from back then: The overlap on an MC4 to MC4 connection = 0.305” The overlap on an MC4 to UTX connection = 0.265” A lot of the older H4 to MC4 issues were end users not fully seating MC4 female to the H4 male. It takes some force to get them to fit completely and a nightmare to disconnect if needed. These tended to fail in higher heat or higher humidity environments. The picture below is one that wasn’t fully seated. cid:image003.jpg at 01D18A5E.48835320 Hanwa Q Cell have used many different connectors on their modules over the years. Jinko modules usually have Jinko connectors in my small amount of experience with them. Jinko still does not offer a crimping tool for their connectors, that I know of and still only UL for 20A. We do little work with these connectors, so my input here might be outdated. Lastly, I have seen a few larger distributing customers of ours doing good work on obtaining the connector/module info from module manufactures, prior to placing their blanket orders. In turn, the module mfg.’s are typically supplying them (or sometimes us) connectors for homerun cables, adapters, etc. And finally the end customer is knowing what connectors on the modules they are purchasing, with the availability of getting the correct connectors/homerun cables needed to complete the install. Bryan Norkunas bryan at pv-cables.com Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140 PV-Cables Inc. 1155 Redway Drive PO Box 2562 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:08 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch I did some research on the modules we've used over the past 15+ years to see if we had potential mismatched connector issues. We've used Amphenol H4 connects since the advent of locking solar connectors. We had assumed they were compatible back then. Solarworld switched from MC4 to H4 somewhere back 2013 to 2015. I didn't even notice. SW 280s through SW 300 looks like H4, while SW 270s and back to the long, skinny SW 165s are MC 4, but its not that clear, as I found a spec sheet for an SW 260 with an H4. Conclusion: Basically we can't be sure. Hanwa Q cell, looks like their 60 cell mods run the MC 4 or MC 4 compatible (whatever that means) while their 72 cell mods apparently use the H4/ UTX Conclusion: Total confusion in the field. Jinko? They don't even list the connector type on any of the spec sheets I have for the past few years. Conclusion: No way for a designer/ installer to know beforehand what connector to use in the field. Basically this is a total break down of responsibility for the solar industry; a complete lack of standards. Why hasn't an organization like NEMA stepped in to standardize the connectors like all AC connectors have been, going back for over a century? I made a very wrong assumption that when our industry adopted the MC 4/ H4 locking type connectors that they were standardized and compatible. I can only hope that my systems running at relatively low voltage (<150 vdc) will not have issues. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/4/19 4:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Just to add, l had a lab and l did testing on connectors, we found that most of the aec issues were under low light. This appeared to be when iradiance was low and once the irads went up the issue was less likely, this was because the Male-female contact was not tight enough and under lower power it would arc instead of heating up and expanding. I used a IR Camera but could see little change due to the plastic. Then l used an IV curve tester and shaded partially shaded the module after several repeat testing the connectors got warm. I would suggest making your own connector pull out tool to check the contact pressures. This is where you may find your problem components. It appears that early am testing had lower volts and the inverter pushed the current up and causes the loose connector to fail due to the lower volts. This testing was done both in the field 1/2 meg and lab testing results were very close. The modules used for testing were Trina and the field inverters were ABB and Fronius Sorry for the long note Jerry On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 2:52 PM Steven Lawrence wrote: Everyone, Just to add to this, I've seen multiple melted connectors that couldn't be traced to anything other than mixing manufacturers. I've seen some connectors where you can clearly seeing arcing on the pin itself and nowhere else. The crimps and the housing were fine. I've postulated it had to do with slightly different metals expanding/contracting at different rates. I've made it a very hard rule at my company to never mix manufacturers of connectors. When we order modules, we specifically have the PO call out the manufacturer of the connector (can't just be "MC4 compatible"). Typically we order that same brand of connectors, but sometimes we end up getting 6" jumpers made by a harness company (there are some connectors out there that can only work with #12 wire. Can't use them on #10 homeruns). It's drastically cut down on the number of melted connectors. We've averaged maybe 1 or 2 on 6MW projects over a year with this hard requirement versus 100+ we had on a 1MW rooftop project that mixed multiple manufacturers. Steven Lawrence _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: SolarWorld_H4_UTX_Compatibility_01062016.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1163659 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bryan at pv-cables.com Thu Sep 19 16:07:50 2019 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 13:07:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: <00af01d56f24$6a1e15c0$3e5a4140$@pv-cables.com> References: <88ea1038-aa30-1acf-f047-913a98136002@solarray.com> <00af01d56f24$6a1e15c0$3e5a4140$@pv-cables.com> Message-ID: <00db01d56f25$ea5379f0$befa6dd0$@pv-cables.com> Also note the Intertek testing, I have seen many of these in the past – but never one of them tested with 12AWG or 10AWG connectors, it has always been 14AWG for some reason. And as a company that specializes in this niche, I can say in the last 10 years we have never had the request to manufacture anything smaller than 12AWG when it came to PV Connectors. Bryan Norkunas bryan at pv-cables.com Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140 PV-Cables Inc. 1155 Redway Drive PO Box 2562 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Norkunas Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:57 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mDescription: Description: cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470ismatch Ray, Solarworld went from using MC4 connectors, then to Kostal KSK4 connectors, then Amphenol H4, and finally Amphenol UTX connectors. The cross mating with the KSK4 connectors had the most issues and we assembled a lot of adapters for end users and installers. Back in 2016, we were talking with Solarworld about the Amphenol UTX/H4 to MC4 connections failing. (I attached the Compatibility letter that Solarworld was providing their customers, as well as the Amphenol Compatibility documents ) Back then, I was mating connectors and grinding away the plastic housings to determine the terminal overlap of cross mated connectors. Here are my notes from back then: The overlap on an MC4 to MC4 connection = 0.305” The overlap on an MC4 to UTX connection = 0.265” A lot of the older H4 to MC4 issues were end users not fully seating MC4 female to the H4 male. It takes some force to get them to fit completely and a nightmare to disconnect if needed. These tended to fail in higher heat or higher humidity environments. The picture below is one that wasn’t fully seated. cid:image003.jpg at 01D18A5E.48835320 Hanwa Q Cell have used many different connectors on their modules over the years. Jinko modules usually have Jinko connectors in my small amount of experience with them. Jinko still does not offer a crimping tool for their connectors, that I know of and still only UL for 20A. We do little work with these connectors, so my input here might be outdated. Lastly, I have seen a few larger distributing customers of ours doing good work on obtaining the connector/module info from module manufactures, prior to placing their blanket orders. In turn, the module mfg.’s are typically supplying them (or sometimes us) connectors for homerun cables, adapters, etc. And finally the end customer is knowing what connectors on the modules they are purchasing, with the availability of getting the correct connectors/homerun cables needed to complete the install. Bryan Norkunas bryan at pv-cables.com Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140 PV-Cables Inc. 1155 Redway Drive PO Box 2562 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:08 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch I did some research on the modules we've used over the past 15+ years to see if we had potential mismatched connector issues. We've used Amphenol H4 connects since the advent of locking solar connectors. We had assumed they were compatible back then. Solarworld switched from MC4 to H4 somewhere back 2013 to 2015. I didn't even notice. SW 280s through SW 300 looks like H4, while SW 270s and back to the long, skinny SW 165s are MC 4, but its not that clear, as I found a spec sheet for an SW 260 with an H4. Conclusion: Basically we can't be sure. Hanwa Q cell, looks like their 60 cell mods run the MC 4 or MC 4 compatible (whatever that means) while their 72 cell mods apparently use the H4/ UTX Conclusion: Total confusion in the field. Jinko? They don't even list the connector type on any of the spec sheets I have for the past few years. Conclusion: No way for a designer/ installer to know beforehand what connector to use in the field. Basically this is a total break down of responsibility for the solar industry; a complete lack of standards. Why hasn't an organization like NEMA stepped in to standardize the connectors like all AC connectors have been, going back for over a century? I made a very wrong assumption that when our industry adopted the MC 4/ H4 locking type connectors that they were standardized and compatible. I can only hope that my systems running at relatively low voltage (<150 vdc) will not have issues. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/4/19 4:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Just to add, l had a lab and l did testing on connectors, we found that most of the aec issues were under low light. This appeared to be when iradiance was low and once the irads went up the issue was less likely, this was because the Male-female contact was not tight enough and under lower power it would arc instead of heating up and expanding. I used a IR Camera but could see little change due to the plastic. Then l used an IV curve tester and shaded partially shaded the module after several repeat testing the connectors got warm. I would suggest making your own connector pull out tool to check the contact pressures. This is where you may find your problem components. It appears that early am testing had lower volts and the inverter pushed the current up and causes the loose connector to fail due to the lower volts. This testing was done both in the field 1/2 meg and lab testing results were very close. The modules used for testing were Trina and the field inverters were ABB and Fronius Sorry for the long note Jerry On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 2:52 PM Steven Lawrence wrote: Everyone, Just to add to this, I've seen multiple melted connectors that couldn't be traced to anything other than mixing manufacturers. I've seen some connectors where you can clearly seeing arcing on the pin itself and nowhere else. The crimps and the housing were fine. I've postulated it had to do with slightly different metals expanding/contracting at different rates. I've made it a very hard rule at my company to never mix manufacturers of connectors. When we order modules, we specifically have the PO call out the manufacturer of the connector (can't just be "MC4 compatible"). Typically we order that same brand of connectors, but sometimes we end up getting 6" jumpers made by a harness company (there are some connectors out there that can only work with #12 wire. Can't use them on #10 homeruns). It's drastically cut down on the number of melted connectors. We've averaged maybe 1 or 2 on 6MW projects over a year with this hard requirement versus 100+ we had on a 1MW rooftop project that mixed multiple manufacturers. Steven Lawrence _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 27561 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5088 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Sep 19 16:16:08 2019 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 13:16:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: <00db01d56f25$ea5379f0$befa6dd0$@pv-cables.com> References: <88ea1038-aa30-1acf-f047-913a98136002@solarray.com> <00af01d56f24$6a1e15c0$3e5a4140$@pv-cables.com> <00db01d56f25$ea5379f0$befa6dd0$@pv-cables.com> Message-ID: You say you've seen many of these tests in the past; do you specifically mean the intermatability test? Thanks for the info! (And you also really helped me out identifying some connectors on a problem-job a couple months back...thanks again!). Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:07 PM Bryan Norkunas wrote: > Also note the Intertek testing, I have seen many of these in the past – > > but never one of them tested with 12AWG or 10AWG connectors, it has always > been 14AWG for some reason. > > > > And as a company that specializes in this niche, I can say in the last 10 > years we have never had the request to manufacture anything smaller than > 12AWG when it came to PV Connectors. > > > > *Bryan Norkunas* > > bryan at pv-cables.com > > > > [image: Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140] > > *PV-Cables Inc.* > > 1155 Redway Drive > > PO Box 2562 > > Redway, CA 95560 > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Bryan Norkunas > *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:57 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector m[image: Description: Description: > cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470]ismatch > > > > Ray, > > > > Solarworld went from using MC4 connectors, then to Kostal KSK4 connectors, > then Amphenol H4, and finally Amphenol UTX connectors. > > > > The cross mating with the KSK4 connectors had the most issues and we > assembled a lot of adapters for end users and installers. > > > > Back in 2016, we were talking with Solarworld about the Amphenol UTX/H4 to > MC4 connections failing. (I attached the Compatibility letter that > Solarworld was providing their customers, as well as the Amphenol > Compatibility documents ) > > > > Back then, I was mating connectors and grinding away the plastic housings > to determine the terminal overlap of cross mated connectors. > > Here are my notes from back then: > > The overlap on an MC4 to MC4 connection = 0.305” > > The overlap on an MC4 to UTX connection = 0.265” > > A lot of the older H4 to MC4 issues were end users not fully seating MC4 > female to the H4 male. It takes some force to get them to fit completely > and a nightmare to disconnect if needed. > > These tended to fail in higher heat or higher humidity environments. The > picture below is one that wasn’t fully seated. > > [image: cid:image003.jpg at 01D18A5E.48835320] > > > > > > Hanwa Q Cell have used many different connectors on their modules over the > years. > > > > Jinko modules usually have Jinko connectors in my small amount of > experience with them. Jinko still does not offer a crimping tool for their > connectors, that I know of and still only UL for 20A. We do little work > with these connectors, so my input here might be outdated. > > > > Lastly, I have seen a few larger distributing customers of ours doing good > work on obtaining the connector/module info from module manufactures, prior > to placing their blanket orders. In turn, the module mfg.’s are typically > supplying them (or sometimes us) connectors for homerun cables, adapters, > etc. And finally the end customer is knowing what connectors on the > modules they are purchasing, with the availability of getting the correct > connectors/homerun cables needed to complete the install. > > > > > > *Bryan Norkunas* > > bryan at pv-cables.com > > > > [image: Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140] > > *PV-Cables Inc.* > > 1155 Redway Drive > > PO Box 2562 > > Redway, CA 95560 > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Ray > *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:08 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch > > > > I did some research on the modules we've used over the past 15+ years to > see if we had potential mismatched connector issues. We've used Amphenol H4 > connects since the advent of locking solar connectors. We had assumed they > were compatible back then. > > Solarworld switched from MC4 to H4 somewhere back 2013 to 2015. I didn't > even notice. SW 280s through SW 300 looks like H4, while SW 270s and back > to the long, skinny SW 165s are MC 4, but its not that clear, as I found a > spec sheet for an SW 260 with an H4. > > *Conclusion: Basically we can't be sure.* > > Hanwa Q cell, looks like their 60 cell mods run the MC 4 or MC 4 > compatible (whatever that means) while their 72 cell mods apparently use > the H4/ UTX > > *Conclusion: Total confusion in the field.* > > Jinko? They don't even list the connector type on any of the spec sheets > I have for the past few years. > > *Conclusion: No way for a designer/ installer to know beforehand what > connector to use in the field.* > > Basically this is a total break down of responsibility for the solar > industry; a complete lack of standards. Why hasn't an organization like > NEMA stepped in to standardize the connectors like all AC connectors have > been, going back for over a century? > > I made a very wrong assumption that when our industry adopted the MC 4/ H4 > locking type connectors that they were standardized and compatible. I can > only hope that my systems running at relatively low voltage (<150 vdc) will > not have issues. > > > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/4/19 4:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Just to add, l had a lab and l did testing on connectors, we found that > most of the aec issues were under low light. This appeared to be when > iradiance was low and once the irads went up the issue was less likely, > this was because the Male-female contact was not tight enough and under > lower power it would arc instead of heating up and expanding. I used a IR > Camera but could see little change due to the plastic. > > Then l used an IV curve tester and shaded partially shaded the module > after several repeat testing the connectors got warm. I would suggest > making your own connector pull out tool to check the contact pressures. > This is where you may find your problem components. It appears that early > am testing had lower volts and the inverter pushed the current up and > causes the loose connector to fail due to the lower volts. > > This testing was done both in the field 1/2 meg and lab testing results > were very close. > > The modules used for testing were Trina and the field inverters were ABB > and Fronius > > Sorry for the long note > > Jerry > > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 2:52 PM Steven Lawrence > wrote: > > Everyone, > > > > Just to add to this, I've seen multiple melted connectors that couldn't be > traced to anything other than mixing manufacturers. I've seen some > connectors where you can clearly seeing arcing on the pin itself and > nowhere else. The crimps and the housing were fine. I've postulated it > had to do with slightly different metals expanding/contracting at different > rates. I've made it a very hard rule at my company to never mix > manufacturers of connectors. When we order modules, we specifically have > the PO call out the manufacturer of the connector (can't just be "MC4 > compatible"). Typically we order that same brand of connectors, but > sometimes we end up getting 6" jumpers made by a harness company (there are > some connectors out there that can only work with #12 wire. Can't use them > on #10 homeruns). It's drastically cut down on the number of melted > connectors. We've averaged maybe 1 or 2 on 6MW projects over a year with > this hard requirement versus 100+ we had on a 1MW rooftop project that > mixed multiple manufacturers. > > > > Steven Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 27561 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5088 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bryan at pv-cables.com Thu Sep 19 16:28:48 2019 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 13:28:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: References: <88ea1038-aa30-1acf-f047-913a98136002@solarray.com> <00af01d56f24$6a1e15c0$3e5a4140$@pv-cables.com> <00db01d56f25$ea5379f0$befa6dd0$@pv-cables.com> Message-ID: <011401d56f28$d857def0$89079cd0$@pv-cables.com> Yes, I have seen and have copies of many of these 3rd party “compatibility” tests. From: Brian Mehalic [mailto:brian at solarenergy.org] Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 1:16 PM To: Bryan Norkunas Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch You say you've seen many of these tests in the past; do you specifically mean the intermatability test? Thanks for the info! (And you also really helped me out identifying some connectors on a problem-job a couple months back...thanks again!). Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:07 PM Bryan Norkunas wrote: Also note the Intertek testing, I have seen many of these in the past – but never one of them tested with 12AWG or 10AWG connectors, it has always been 14AWG for some reason. And as a company that specializes in this niche, I can say in the last 10 years we have never had the request to manufacture anything smaller than 12AWG when it came to PV Connectors. Bryan Norkunas bryan at pv-cables.com Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140 PV-Cables Inc. 1155 Redway Drive PO Box 2562 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Norkunas Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:57 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mDescription: Description: cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470ismatch Ray, Solarworld went from using MC4 connectors, then to Kostal KSK4 connectors, then Amphenol H4, and finally Amphenol UTX connectors. The cross mating with the KSK4 connectors had the most issues and we assembled a lot of adapters for end users and installers. Back in 2016, we were talking with Solarworld about the Amphenol UTX/H4 to MC4 connections failing. (I attached the Compatibility letter that Solarworld was providing their customers, as well as the Amphenol Compatibility documents ) Back then, I was mating connectors and grinding away the plastic housings to determine the terminal overlap of cross mated connectors. Here are my notes from back then: The overlap on an MC4 to MC4 connection = 0.305” The overlap on an MC4 to UTX connection = 0.265” A lot of the older H4 to MC4 issues were end users not fully seating MC4 female to the H4 male. It takes some force to get them to fit completely and a nightmare to disconnect if needed. These tended to fail in higher heat or higher humidity environments. The picture below is one that wasn’t fully seated. cid:image003.jpg at 01D18A5E.48835320 Hanwa Q Cell have used many different connectors on their modules over the years. Jinko modules usually have Jinko connectors in my small amount of experience with them. Jinko still does not offer a crimping tool for their connectors, that I know of and still only UL for 20A. We do little work with these connectors, so my input here might be outdated. Lastly, I have seen a few larger distributing customers of ours doing good work on obtaining the connector/module info from module manufactures, prior to placing their blanket orders. In turn, the module mfg.’s are typically supplying them (or sometimes us) connectors for homerun cables, adapters, etc. And finally the end customer is knowing what connectors on the modules they are purchasing, with the availability of getting the correct connectors/homerun cables needed to complete the install. Bryan Norkunas bryan at pv-cables.com Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140 PV-Cables Inc. 1155 Redway Drive PO Box 2562 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:08 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch I did some research on the modules we've used over the past 15+ years to see if we had potential mismatched connector issues. We've used Amphenol H4 connects since the advent of locking solar connectors. We had assumed they were compatible back then. Solarworld switched from MC4 to H4 somewhere back 2013 to 2015. I didn't even notice. SW 280s through SW 300 looks like H4, while SW 270s and back to the long, skinny SW 165s are MC 4, but its not that clear, as I found a spec sheet for an SW 260 with an H4. Conclusion: Basically we can't be sure. Hanwa Q cell, looks like their 60 cell mods run the MC 4 or MC 4 compatible (whatever that means) while their 72 cell mods apparently use the H4/ UTX Conclusion: Total confusion in the field. Jinko? They don't even list the connector type on any of the spec sheets I have for the past few years. Conclusion: No way for a designer/ installer to know beforehand what connector to use in the field. Basically this is a total break down of responsibility for the solar industry; a complete lack of standards. Why hasn't an organization like NEMA stepped in to standardize the connectors like all AC connectors have been, going back for over a century? I made a very wrong assumption that when our industry adopted the MC 4/ H4 locking type connectors that they were standardized and compatible. I can only hope that my systems running at relatively low voltage (<150 vdc) will not have issues. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/4/19 4:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Just to add, l had a lab and l did testing on connectors, we found that most of the aec issues were under low light. This appeared to be when iradiance was low and once the irads went up the issue was less likely, this was because the Male-female contact was not tight enough and under lower power it would arc instead of heating up and expanding. I used a IR Camera but could see little change due to the plastic. Then l used an IV curve tester and shaded partially shaded the module after several repeat testing the connectors got warm. I would suggest making your own connector pull out tool to check the contact pressures. This is where you may find your problem components. It appears that early am testing had lower volts and the inverter pushed the current up and causes the loose connector to fail due to the lower volts. This testing was done both in the field 1/2 meg and lab testing results were very close. The modules used for testing were Trina and the field inverters were ABB and Fronius Sorry for the long note Jerry On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 2:52 PM Steven Lawrence wrote: Everyone, Just to add to this, I've seen multiple melted connectors that couldn't be traced to anything other than mixing manufacturers. I've seen some connectors where you can clearly seeing arcing on the pin itself and nowhere else. The crimps and the housing were fine. I've postulated it had to do with slightly different metals expanding/contracting at different rates. I've made it a very hard rule at my company to never mix manufacturers of connectors. When we order modules, we specifically have the PO call out the manufacturer of the connector (can't just be "MC4 compatible"). Typically we order that same brand of connectors, but sometimes we end up getting 6" jumpers made by a harness company (there are some connectors out there that can only work with #12 wire. Can't use them on #10 homeruns). It's drastically cut down on the number of melted connectors. We've averaged maybe 1 or 2 on 6MW projects over a year with this hard requirement versus 100+ we had on a 1MW rooftop project that mixed multiple manufacturers. Steven Lawrence _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5088 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Sep 19 19:48:02 2019 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 16:48:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: <011401d56f28$d857def0$89079cd0$@pv-cables.com> References: <88ea1038-aa30-1acf-f047-913a98136002@solarray.com> <00af01d56f24$6a1e15c0$3e5a4140$@pv-cables.com> <00db01d56f25$ea5379f0$befa6dd0$@pv-cables.com> <011401d56f28$d857def0$89079cd0$@pv-cables.com> Message-ID: Someone previously at AEE tried to get NEMA involved in setting a standard, but it turned out that they were not getting cooperation from the mfg, so could not proceed. Brad On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:28 PM Bryan Norkunas wrote: > Yes, I have seen and have copies of many of these 3rd party > “compatibility” tests. > > > > *From:* Brian Mehalic [mailto:brian at solarenergy.org] > *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 1:16 PM > *To:* Bryan Norkunas > *Cc:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch > > > > You say you've seen many of these tests in the past; do you specifically > mean the intermatability test? > > > > Thanks for the info! (And you also really helped me out identifying some > connectors on a problem-job a couple months back...thanks again!). > > > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > > (520) 204-6639 > > > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > > > SEI Professional Services > > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:07 PM Bryan Norkunas > wrote: > > Also note the Intertek testing, I have seen many of these in the past – > > but never one of them tested with 12AWG or 10AWG connectors, it has always > been 14AWG for some reason. > > > > And as a company that specializes in this niche, I can say in the last 10 > years we have never had the request to manufacture anything smaller than > 12AWG when it came to PV Connectors. > > > > *Bryan Norkunas* > > bryan at pv-cables.com > > > > [image: Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140] > > *PV-Cables Inc.* > > 1155 Redway Drive > > PO Box 2562 > > Redway, CA 95560 > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Bryan Norkunas > *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:57 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector m[image: Description: Description: > cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470]ismatch > > > > Ray, > > > > Solarworld went from using MC4 connectors, then to Kostal KSK4 connectors, > then Amphenol H4, and finally Amphenol UTX connectors. > > > > The cross mating with the KSK4 connectors had the most issues and we > assembled a lot of adapters for end users and installers. > > > > Back in 2016, we were talking with Solarworld about the Amphenol UTX/H4 to > MC4 connections failing. (I attached the Compatibility letter that > Solarworld was providing their customers, as well as the Amphenol > Compatibility documents ) > > > > Back then, I was mating connectors and grinding away the plastic housings > to determine the terminal overlap of cross mated connectors. > > Here are my notes from back then: > > The overlap on an MC4 to MC4 connection = 0.305” > > The overlap on an MC4 to UTX connection = 0.265” > > A lot of the older H4 to MC4 issues were end users not fully seating MC4 > female to the H4 male. It takes some force to get them to fit completely > and a nightmare to disconnect if needed. > > These tended to fail in higher heat or higher humidity environments. The > picture below is one that wasn’t fully seated. > > [image: cid:image003.jpg at 01D18A5E.48835320] > > > > > > Hanwa Q Cell have used many different connectors on their modules over the > years. > > > > Jinko modules usually have Jinko connectors in my small amount of > experience with them. Jinko still does not offer a crimping tool for their > connectors, that I know of and still only UL for 20A. We do little work > with these connectors, so my input here might be outdated. > > > > Lastly, I have seen a few larger distributing customers of ours doing good > work on obtaining the connector/module info from module manufactures, prior > to placing their blanket orders. In turn, the module mfg.’s are typically > supplying them (or sometimes us) connectors for homerun cables, adapters, > etc. And finally the end customer is knowing what connectors on the > modules they are purchasing, with the availability of getting the correct > connectors/homerun cables needed to complete the install. > > > > > > *Bryan Norkunas* > > bryan at pv-cables.com > > > > [image: Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140] > > *PV-Cables Inc.* > > 1155 Redway Drive > > PO Box 2562 > > Redway, CA 95560 > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Ray > *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:08 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch > > > > I did some research on the modules we've used over the past 15+ years to > see if we had potential mismatched connector issues. We've used Amphenol H4 > connects since the advent of locking solar connectors. We had assumed they > were compatible back then. > > Solarworld switched from MC4 to H4 somewhere back 2013 to 2015. I didn't > even notice. SW 280s through SW 300 looks like H4, while SW 270s and back > to the long, skinny SW 165s are MC 4, but its not that clear, as I found a > spec sheet for an SW 260 with an H4. > > *Conclusion: Basically we can't be sure.* > > Hanwa Q cell, looks like their 60 cell mods run the MC 4 or MC 4 > compatible (whatever that means) while their 72 cell mods apparently use > the H4/ UTX > > *Conclusion: Total confusion in the field.* > > Jinko? They don't even list the connector type on any of the spec sheets > I have for the past few years. > > *Conclusion: No way for a designer/ installer to know beforehand what > connector to use in the field.* > > Basically this is a total break down of responsibility for the solar > industry; a complete lack of standards. Why hasn't an organization like > NEMA stepped in to standardize the connectors like all AC connectors have > been, going back for over a century? > > I made a very wrong assumption that when our industry adopted the MC 4/ H4 > locking type connectors that they were standardized and compatible. I can > only hope that my systems running at relatively low voltage (<150 vdc) will > not have issues. > > > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/4/19 4:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Just to add, l had a lab and l did testing on connectors, we found that > most of the aec issues were under low light. This appeared to be when > iradiance was low and once the irads went up the issue was less likely, > this was because the Male-female contact was not tight enough and under > lower power it would arc instead of heating up and expanding. I used a IR > Camera but could see little change due to the plastic. > > Then l used an IV curve tester and shaded partially shaded the module > after several repeat testing the connectors got warm. I would suggest > making your own connector pull out tool to check the contact pressures. > This is where you may find your problem components. It appears that early > am testing had lower volts and the inverter pushed the current up and > causes the loose connector to fail due to the lower volts. > > This testing was done both in the field 1/2 meg and lab testing results > were very close. > > The modules used for testing were Trina and the field inverters were ABB > and Fronius > > Sorry for the long note > > Jerry > > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 2:52 PM Steven Lawrence > wrote: > > Everyone, > > > > Just to add to this, I've seen multiple melted connectors that couldn't be > traced to anything other than mixing manufacturers. I've seen some > connectors where you can clearly seeing arcing on the pin itself and > nowhere else. The crimps and the housing were fine. I've postulated it > had to do with slightly different metals expanding/contracting at different > rates. I've made it a very hard rule at my company to never mix > manufacturers of connectors. When we order modules, we specifically have > the PO call out the manufacturer of the connector (can't just be "MC4 > compatible"). Typically we order that same brand of connectors, but > sometimes we end up getting 6" jumpers made by a harness company (there are > some connectors out there that can only work with #12 wire. Can't use them > on #10 homeruns). It's drastically cut down on the number of melted > connectors. We've averaged maybe 1 or 2 on 6MW projects over a year with > this hard requirement versus 100+ we had on a 1MW rooftop project that > mixed multiple manufacturers. > > > > Steven Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5088 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Sep 19 21:01:12 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 19:01:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch In-Reply-To: References: <88ea1038-aa30-1acf-f047-913a98136002@solarray.com> <00af01d56f24$6a1e15c0$3e5a4140$@pv-cables.com> <00db01d56f25$ea5379f0$befa6dd0$@pv-cables.com> <011401d56f28$d857def0$89079cd0$@pv-cables.com> Message-ID: In the regulatory vacuum that ensued, we now have dozens of unregulated connectors, no way of knowing what might be on past jobs, confused installers, nervous customers, while the market they tried to control is flooded with "MC 4" crimpers on Amazon for $20. All of this for the main connector used millions of times in almost ALL Solar installations.  I don't blame just the specific manufacturers that might have benefited briefly from this lack of standards, but all of us for letting this happen literally right in front of our eyes, and to go on for over a decade. The high DC voltages being used by most GT installs these days warrant serious improvements in our safety standards process. Arc fault detectors are not the first line of defense, good connections are. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/19/19 5:48 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > Someone previously at AEE tried to get NEMA involved in setting a > standard, but it turned out that they were not getting cooperation > from the mfg, so could not proceed. > > Brad > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:28 PM Bryan Norkunas > wrote: > > Yes, I have seen and have copies of many of these 3^rd party > “compatibility” tests. > > *From:*Brian Mehalic [mailto:brian at solarenergy.org > ] > *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 1:16 PM > *To:* Bryan Norkunas > *Cc:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch > > You say you've seen many of these tests in the past; do you > specifically mean the intermatability test? > > Thanks for the info! (And you also really helped me out > identifying some connectors on a problem-job a couple months > back...thanks again!). > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:07 PM Bryan Norkunas > > wrote: > > Also note the Intertek testing, I have seen many of these in > the past – > > but never one of them tested with 12AWG or 10AWG connectors, > it has always been 14AWG for some reason. > > And as a company that specializes in this niche, I can say in > the last 10 years we have never had the request to manufacture > anything smaller than 12AWG when it came to PV Connectors. > > *Bryan Norkunas* > > bryan at pv-cables.com > > Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140 > > *PV-Cables Inc.* > > 1155 Redway Drive > > PO Box 2562 > > Redway, CA 95560 > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf > Of *Bryan Norkunas > *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:57 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mDescription: > Description: cid:image002.jpg at 01CD22E8.974B6470ismatch > > Ray, > > Solarworld went from using MC4 connectors, then to Kostal KSK4 > connectors, then Amphenol H4, and finally Amphenol UTX connectors. > > The cross mating with the KSK4 connectors had the most issues > and we assembled a lot of adapters for end users and installers. > > Back in 2016, we were talking with Solarworld about the > Amphenol UTX/H4 to MC4 connections failing.  (I attached the > Compatibility letter that Solarworld was providing their > customers, as well as the Amphenol Compatibility documents ) > > Back then, I was mating connectors and grinding away the > plastic housings to determine the terminal overlap of cross > mated connectors. > > Here are my notes from back then: > > The overlap on an MC4 to MC4 connection = 0.305” > > The overlap on an MC4 to UTX connection = 0.265” > > A lot of the older H4 to MC4 issues were end users not fully > seating MC4 female to the H4 male.  It takes some force to get > them to fit completely and a nightmare to disconnect if needed. > > These tended to fail in higher heat or higher humidity > environments.  The picture below is one that wasn’t fully seated. > > cid:image003.jpg at 01D18A5E.48835320 > > Hanwa Q Cell have used many different connectors on their > modules over the years. > > Jinko modules usually have Jinko connectors in my small amount > of experience with them.  Jinko still does not offer a > crimping tool for their connectors, that I know of and still > only UL for 20A.  We do little work with these connectors, so > my input here might be outdated. > > Lastly, I have seen a few larger distributing customers of > ours doing good work on obtaining the connector/module info > from module manufactures, prior to placing their blanket > orders.  In turn, the module mfg.’s are typically supplying > them (or sometimes us) connectors for homerun cables, > adapters, etc.    And finally the end customer is knowing what > connectors on the modules they are purchasing, with the > availability of getting the correct connectors/homerun cables > needed to complete the install. > > *Bryan Norkunas* > > bryan at pv-cables.com > > Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140 > > *PV-Cables Inc.* > > 1155 Redway Drive > > PO Box 2562 > > Redway, CA 95560 > > (707) 923-3000 office > > www.pv-cables.com > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf > Of *Ray > *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 12:08 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] connector mismatch > > I did some research on the modules we've used over the past > 15+ years to see if we had potential mismatched connector > issues. We've used Amphenol H4 connects since the advent of > locking solar connectors.  We had assumed they were compatible > back then. > > Solarworld switched from MC4 to H4 somewhere back 2013 to > 2015. I didn't even notice. SW 280s through SW 300 looks like > H4, while SW 270s and back to the long, skinny SW 165s are MC > 4, but its not that clear, as I found a spec sheet for an SW > 260 with an H4. > > _Conclusion: Basically we can't be sure._ > > Hanwa Q cell, looks like their 60 cell mods run the MC 4 or MC > 4 compatible (whatever that means) while their 72 cell mods > apparently use the H4/ UTX > > _Conclusion: Total confusion in the field._ > > Jinko?  They don't even list the connector type on any of the > spec sheets I have for the past few years. > > _Conclusion: No way for a designer/ installer to know > beforehand what connector to use in the field._ > > Basically this is a total break down of responsibility for the > solar industry; a complete lack of standards. Why hasn't an > organization like NEMA stepped in to standardize the > connectors like all AC connectors have been, going back for > over a century? > > I made a very wrong assumption that when our industry adopted > the MC 4/ H4 locking type connectors that they were > standardized and compatible.   I can only hope that my systems > running at relatively low voltage (<150 vdc) will not have > issues. > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/4/19 4:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Just to add, l had a lab and l did testing on connectors, > we found that most of the aec issues were under low light. > This appeared to be when iradiance was low and once the > irads went up the issue was less likely, this was because > the Male-female contact was not tight enough and under > lower power it would arc instead of heating up and > expanding. I used a IR Camera but could see little change > due to the plastic. > > Then l used an IV curve tester and shaded partially shaded > the module after several repeat testing the connectors got > warm. I would suggest making your own connector pull out > tool to check the contact pressures. This is where you may > find your problem components. It appears that early am > testing had lower volts and the inverter pushed the > current up and causes the loose connector to fail due to > the lower volts. > > This testing was done both in the field 1/2 meg and lab > testing results were very close. > > The modules used for testing were Trina and the field > inverters were ABB and Fronius > > Sorry for the long note > > Jerry > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019, 2:52 PM Steven Lawrence > > wrote: > > Everyone, > > Just to add to this, I've seen multiple melted > connectors that couldn't be traced to anything other > than mixing manufacturers.  I've seen some connectors > where you can clearly seeing arcing on the pin itself > and nowhere else.  The crimps and the housing were > fine.  I've postulated it had to do with slightly > different metals expanding/contracting at different > rates.  I've made it a very hard rule at my company to > never mix manufacturers of connectors.  When we order > modules, we specifically have the PO call out the > manufacturer of the connector (can't just be "MC4 > compatible").  Typically we order that same brand of > connectors, but sometimes we end up getting 6" jumpers > made by a harness company (there are some connectors > out there that can only work with #12 wire.  Can't use > them on #10 homeruns).  It's drastically cut down on > the number of melted connectors.  We've averaged maybe > 1 or 2 on 6MW projects over a year with this hard > requirement versus 100+ we had on a 1MW rooftop > project that mixed multiple manufacturers. > > Steven Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27561 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5088 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Fri Sep 20 09:41:20 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 09:41:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Running a grid tied system when the grid is down Message-ID: Hi all, I get asked this question frequently, as I am sure many others do, and of course the first answer is "it cannot be done". But can it? I have a customer who is very keen on trying to make this happen. After a few lengthy conversations, he still wants to try it, even after understanding the limitations (i.e. a cloud passes by and now you cannot power loads...) I have some thoughts on how to make this work, and thought I would post it here to get others comments who I am sure have more experience in something like this than I do. -PV system would have to be backfed, so that they can turn off the main breaker to disconnect from the utility entirely (and then have to look at the neighbors, or guess when the grid comes back) -Have a fairly small 12V off grid inverter/charger than can be powered by a single 12v battery. This inverter would have to be manually turned off until after the grid is down and the main breaker is disconnected. -Would also need an auto transformer to bump up the voltage to 240V. Something like the Outback PSX240. -Once the main breaker is off and the off grid inverter is on, would it be able to wake up the grid tied inverters? On this project, there are two SMA SB-40 inverters. -There would need to be some kind of dump/diversion load to deal with excess power coming from the GT inverters. I have not used these in the past, but are the controllers smart enough to just deal with any excess power in the system? -Have a trickle charger on the battery to keep it topped off most of the time. -Another thought would be to DC couple. This would involve having a DC switch in one of the strings going to the GT inverter, such that when the house is islanded from the grid, they can flip the switch and have that one string go to a high voltage CC. Then they could just run some small loads off the power from that one string, or maybe we could allow it to try to wake up the GT inverters as well. This particular homeowner specifically does not want much in the way of batteries and has a smaller budget than will allow something sensible like a Sunny Island. At least in upstate NY, there are many people who would like to be able to take advantage of their solar when the sun is shining, but who just do not have the budget for a legit battery system. I am somewhat surprised that there is no simple industry solution for this yet, although maybe it is more complicated than I am making it out to be. And of course, you need a very hands on homeowner who very well understands the limitations of this kind of setup. I would certainly appreciate any feedback or comments on this, and also would like to hear if anyone has tried this kind of setup before. Thanks much! -Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 10:33:07 2019 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 07:33:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Running a grid tied system when the grid is down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you're not using the SB -40 inverter's rapid shutdown system, it has the SPS Secure Power Supply which does just what your customer wants. My understanding from talking to inverter mfg, is that trying to do AC coupling with a smaller battery inverters does not work because the anti-islanding in the grid tie inverter will be able to push the frequency off too easily. Morningstar makes a 600 VDC charge control that has an array transfer switch, so that during an outage you can switch it to use one or two strings to charge a 48 V battery bank and power any 48 V inverter. It is manual so the operator needs to change it back when the power comes back on. Brad On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 6:41 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi all, > > I get asked this question frequently, as I am sure many others do, and of > course the first answer is "it cannot be done". But can it? I have a > customer who is very keen on trying to make this happen. After a few > lengthy conversations, he still wants to try it, even after understanding > the limitations (i.e. a cloud passes by and now you cannot power loads...) > > I have some thoughts on how to make this work, and thought I would post it > here to get others comments who I am sure have more experience in something > like this than I do. > > -PV system would have to be backfed, so that they can turn off the main > breaker to disconnect from the utility entirely (and then have to look at > the neighbors, or guess when the grid comes back) > -Have a fairly small 12V off grid inverter/charger than can be powered by > a single 12v battery. This inverter would have to be manually turned off > until after the grid is down and the main breaker is disconnected. > -Would also need an auto transformer to bump up the voltage to 240V. > Something like the Outback PSX240. > -Once the main breaker is off and the off grid inverter is on, would it be > able to wake up the grid tied inverters? On this project, there are two SMA > SB-40 inverters. > -There would need to be some kind of dump/diversion load to deal with > excess power coming from the GT inverters. I have not used these in the > past, but are the controllers smart enough to just deal with any excess > power in the system? > -Have a trickle charger on the battery to keep it topped off most of the > time. > > -Another thought would be to DC couple. This would involve having a DC > switch in one of the strings going to the GT inverter, such that when the > house is islanded from the grid, they can flip the switch and have that one > string go to a high voltage CC. Then they could just run some small loads > off the power from that one string, or maybe we could allow it to try to > wake up the GT inverters as well. > > This particular homeowner specifically does not want much in the way of > batteries and has a smaller budget than will allow something sensible like > a Sunny Island. > > At least in upstate NY, there are many people who would like to be able to > take advantage of their solar when the sun is shining, but who just do not > have the budget for a legit battery system. I am somewhat surprised that > there is no simple industry solution for this yet, although maybe it is > more complicated than I am making it out to be. And of course, you need a > very hands on homeowner who very well understands the limitations of this > kind of setup. > > I would certainly appreciate any feedback or comments on this, and also > would like to hear if anyone has tried this kind of setup before. > > Thanks much! > -Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Fri Sep 20 10:52:02 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 10:52:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Running a grid tied system when the grid is down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Brad, Not a bad idea with this one to run the loads off the SPS's. Has anyone ever tried wiring these directly into a panel, rather than into an outlet? And do you know if the 120V signal from each one would match up, or do they work independantly? In other words can you wire both SPS into the same panel either on different legs, or on the same leg and use an autoxfr? And with the Rapid shutdown and SPS. Does it not work with SMA's rapid shutdown box? I thought with those, the grid going down would not affect the rapid shutdown, and that it needs the signal from the controller to initiate RSD. So this way it will continue to work with the grid down. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 10:33 AM Bradley Bassett wrote: > If you're not using the SB -40 inverter's rapid shutdown system, it has > the SPS Secure Power Supply which does just what your customer wants. > > My understanding from talking to inverter mfg, is that trying to do AC > coupling with a smaller battery inverters does not work because the > anti-islanding in the grid tie inverter will be able to push the frequency > off too easily. > > Morningstar makes a 600 VDC charge control that has an array transfer > switch, so that during an outage you can switch it to use one or two > strings to charge a 48 V battery bank and power any 48 V inverter. It is > manual so the operator needs to change it back when the power comes back on. > > Brad > > > > On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 6:41 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I get asked this question frequently, as I am sure many others do, and of >> course the first answer is "it cannot be done". But can it? I have a >> customer who is very keen on trying to make this happen. After a few >> lengthy conversations, he still wants to try it, even after understanding >> the limitations (i.e. a cloud passes by and now you cannot power loads...) >> >> I have some thoughts on how to make this work, and thought I would post >> it here to get others comments who I am sure have more experience in >> something like this than I do. >> >> -PV system would have to be backfed, so that they can turn off the main >> breaker to disconnect from the utility entirely (and then have to look at >> the neighbors, or guess when the grid comes back) >> -Have a fairly small 12V off grid inverter/charger than can be powered by >> a single 12v battery. This inverter would have to be manually turned off >> until after the grid is down and the main breaker is disconnected. >> -Would also need an auto transformer to bump up the voltage to 240V. >> Something like the Outback PSX240. >> -Once the main breaker is off and the off grid inverter is on, would it >> be able to wake up the grid tied inverters? On this project, there are two >> SMA SB-40 inverters. >> -There would need to be some kind of dump/diversion load to deal with >> excess power coming from the GT inverters. I have not used these in the >> past, but are the controllers smart enough to just deal with any excess >> power in the system? >> -Have a trickle charger on the battery to keep it topped off most of the >> time. >> >> -Another thought would be to DC couple. This would involve having a DC >> switch in one of the strings going to the GT inverter, such that when the >> house is islanded from the grid, they can flip the switch and have that one >> string go to a high voltage CC. Then they could just run some small loads >> off the power from that one string, or maybe we could allow it to try to >> wake up the GT inverters as well. >> >> This particular homeowner specifically does not want much in the way of >> batteries and has a smaller budget than will allow something sensible like >> a Sunny Island. >> >> At least in upstate NY, there are many people who would like to be able >> to take advantage of their solar when the sun is shining, but who just do >> not have the budget for a legit battery system. I am somewhat surprised >> that there is no simple industry solution for this yet, although maybe it >> is more complicated than I am making it out to be. And of course, you need >> a very hands on homeowner who very well understands the limitations of this >> kind of setup. >> >> I would certainly appreciate any feedback or comments on this, and also >> would like to hear if anyone has tried this kind of setup before. >> >> Thanks much! >> -Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >> B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Sep 20 10:11:06 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 14:11:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Running a grid tied system when the grid is down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave – how is Rapid Shutdown being complied with? And what load requires 240V – or is that needed to “fool” the PV inverters? With two SB-40s, you have the ability to wire for the homeowner two Secure Power Supply circuits – and get up to 2000W (at 120VAC) from each when sun is up and grid is down, no batteries or extra inverter needed. This is exactly the “simple industry solution” you mention, and it has been available in US from Sunny Boys only since 2013. Best regards - Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg][http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D54D07.DC1BFFF0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 7:41 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Running a grid tied system when the grid is down Hi all, I get asked this question frequently, as I am sure many others do, and of course the first answer is "it cannot be done". But can it? I have a customer who is very keen on trying to make this happen. After a few lengthy conversations, he still wants to try it, even after understanding the limitations (i.e. a cloud passes by and now you cannot power loads...) I have some thoughts on how to make this work, and thought I would post it here to get others comments who I am sure have more experience in something like this than I do. -PV system would have to be backfed, so that they can turn off the main breaker to disconnect from the utility entirely (and then have to look at the neighbors, or guess when the grid comes back) -Have a fairly small 12V off grid inverter/charger than can be powered by a single 12v battery. This inverter would have to be manually turned off until after the grid is down and the main breaker is disconnected. -Would also need an auto transformer to bump up the voltage to 240V. Something like the Outback PSX240. -Once the main breaker is off and the off grid inverter is on, would it be able to wake up the grid tied inverters? On this project, there are two SMA SB-40 inverters. -There would need to be some kind of dump/diversion load to deal with excess power coming from the GT inverters. I have not used these in the past, but are the controllers smart enough to just deal with any excess power in the system? -Have a trickle charger on the battery to keep it topped off most of the time. -Another thought would be to DC couple. This would involve having a DC switch in one of the strings going to the GT inverter, such that when the house is islanded from the grid, they can flip the switch and have that one string go to a high voltage CC. Then they could just run some small loads off the power from that one string, or maybe we could allow it to try to wake up the GT inverters as well. This particular homeowner specifically does not want much in the way of batteries and has a smaller budget than will allow something sensible like a Sunny Island. At least in upstate NY, there are many people who would like to be able to take advantage of their solar when the sun is shining, but who just do not have the budget for a legit battery system. I am somewhat surprised that there is no simple industry solution for this yet, although maybe it is more complicated than I am making it out to be. And of course, you need a very hands on homeowner who very well understands the limitations of this kind of setup. I would certainly appreciate any feedback or comments on this, and also would like to hear if anyone has tried this kind of setup before. Thanks much! -Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22585 bytes Desc: image007.jpg URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Fri Sep 20 11:07:12 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 11:07:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Running a grid tied system when the grid is down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mike, For rapid shutdown, we are on NEC2014 in NY. So module level is not necessary. And the SPS is a huge reason for the SB inverters on this one. And in this case, it is almost exactly what the homeowner is looking for. But with the two inverters, can those SPS be wired into a panel rather than just into an outlet? So far, this customers house has not even been built yet. The barn is up, which is where the solar is going. So I am not 100% sure about loads, but there will likely be heat pumps. So if the SPS's can put power the same panel, then that might be just what I am looking for in this particular case. Although I am still curious if others have retrofitted other systems with something like I was initially talking about for an inverter that does not have a SPS. I think that at least in this market a low end 3rd party solution could gain a lot of traction. *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 10:58 AM Harry Mahon wrote: > Dave – how is Rapid Shutdown being complied with? And what load requires > 240V – or is that needed to “fool” the PV inverters? > > > > With two SB-40s, you have the ability to wire for the homeowner two Secure > Power Supply circuits – and get up to 2000W (at 120VAC) from each when sun > is up and grid is down, no batteries or extra inverter needed. > > > > This is exactly the “simple industry solution” you mention, and it has > been available in US from Sunny Boys only since 2013. > > > > Best regards - > > Mike > > > > SMA America > Michael Mahon > Technical Trainer, Solar Academy > 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 > > Rocklin, CA 95765 > > U.S.A. > Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 > * www.SMA-America.com * > > > > Solar Academy: > www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html > > > > > Full training schedule: > https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html > > > > > > [image: > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg] > [image: > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] > [image: > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] > [image: Linkedin Logo] > [image: > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] > [image: > SMAAFORUM_ICON] > > [image: cid:image008.jpg at 01D54D07.DC1BFFF0] > > > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or > any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any > attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan > *Sent:* Friday, September 20, 2019 7:41 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Running a grid tied system when the grid is down > > > > Hi all, > > > > I get asked this question frequently, as I am sure many others do, and of > course the first answer is "it cannot be done". But can it? I have a > customer who is very keen on trying to make this happen. After a few > lengthy conversations, he still wants to try it, even after understanding > the limitations (i.e. a cloud passes by and now you cannot power loads...) > > > > I have some thoughts on how to make this work, and thought I would post it > here to get others comments who I am sure have more experience in something > like this than I do. > > > > -PV system would have to be backfed, so that they can turn off the main > breaker to disconnect from the utility entirely (and then have to look at > the neighbors, or guess when the grid comes back) > > -Have a fairly small 12V off grid inverter/charger than can be powered by > a single 12v battery. This inverter would have to be manually turned off > until after the grid is down and the main breaker is disconnected. > > -Would also need an auto transformer to bump up the voltage to 240V. > Something like the Outback PSX240. > > -Once the main breaker is off and the off grid inverter is on, would it be > able to wake up the grid tied inverters? On this project, there are two SMA > SB-40 inverters. > > -There would need to be some kind of dump/diversion load to deal with > excess power coming from the GT inverters. I have not used these in the > past, but are the controllers smart enough to just deal with any excess > power in the system? > > -Have a trickle charger on the battery to keep it topped off most of the > time. > > > > -Another thought would be to DC couple. This would involve having a DC > switch in one of the strings going to the GT inverter, such that when the > house is islanded from the grid, they can flip the switch and have that one > string go to a high voltage CC. Then they could just run some small loads > off the power from that one string, or maybe we could allow it to try to > wake up the GT inverters as well. > > > > This particular homeowner specifically does not want much in the way of > batteries and has a smaller budget than will allow something sensible like > a Sunny Island. > > > > At least in upstate NY, there are many people who would like to be able to > take advantage of their solar when the sun is shining, but who just do not > have the budget for a legit battery system. I am somewhat surprised that > there is no simple industry solution for this yet, although maybe it is > more complicated than I am making it out to be. And of course, you need a > very hands on homeowner who very well understands the limitations of this > kind of setup. > > > > I would certainly appreciate any feedback or comments on this, and also > would like to hear if anyone has tried this kind of setup before. > > > > Thanks much! > > -Dave > > > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > > www.taitem.com > > > > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22585 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Sep 20 11:11:57 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 08:11:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Running a grid tied system when the grid is down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The downside of the SMA SPS is there is very little headroom to surge and start a well pump or a fire pump. There is also the major problem of sundown. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 11:07:12 -0400, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Hi Mike, For rapid shutdown, we are on NEC2014 in NY. So module level is not necessary. And the SPS is a huge reason for the SB inverters on this one. And in this case, it is almost exactly what the homeowner is looking for. But with the two inverters, can those SPS be wired into a panel rather than just into an outlet? So far, this customers house has not even been built yet. The barn is up, which is where the solar is going. So I am not 100% sure about loads, but there will likely be heat pumps. So if the SPS's can put power the same panel, then that might be just what I am looking for in this particular case. Although I am still curious if others have retrofitted other systems with something like I was initially talking about for an inverter that does not have a SPS. I think that at least in this market a low end 3rd party solution could gain a lot of traction. DAVE TEDEYAN, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com [3] Solar * Sustainability * Energy * Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 10:58 AM Harry Mahon wrote: Dave - how is Rapid Shutdown being complied with? And what load requires 240V - or is that needed to "fool" the PV inverters? With two SB-40s, you have the ability to wire for the homeowner two Secure Power Supply circuits - and get up to 2000W (at 120VAC) from each when sun is up and grid is down, no batteries or extra inverter needed. This is exactly the "simple industry solution" you mention, and it has been available in US from Sunny Boys only since 2013. Best regards - Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com [5] Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html [6] Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [7] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Dave Tedeyan SENT: Friday, September 20, 2019 7:41 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Running a grid tied system when the grid is down Hi all, I get asked this question frequently, as I am sure many others do, and of course the first answer is "it cannot be done". But can it? I have a customer who is very keen on trying to make this happen. After a few lengthy conversations, he still wants to try it, even after understanding the limitations (i.e. a cloud passes by and now you cannot power loads...) I have some thoughts on how to make this work, and thought I would post it here to get others comments who I am sure have more experience in something like this than I do. -PV system would have to be backfed, so that they can turn off the main breaker to disconnect from the utility entirely (and then have to look at the neighbors, or guess when the grid comes back) -Have a fairly small 12V off grid inverter/charger than can be powered by a single 12v battery. This inverter would have to be manually turned off until after the grid is down and the main breaker is disconnected. -Would also need an auto transformer to bump up the voltage to 240V. Something like the Outback PSX240. -Once the main breaker is off and the off grid inverter is on, would it be able to wake up the grid tied inverters? On this project, there are two SMA SB-40 inverters. -There would need to be some kind of dump/diversion load to deal with excess power coming from the GT inverters. I have not used these in the past, but are the controllers smart enough to just deal with any excess power in the system? -Have a trickle charger on the battery to keep it topped off most of the time. -Another thought would be to DC couple. This would involve having a DC switch in one of the strings going to the GT inverter, such that when the house is islanded from the grid, they can flip the switch and have that one string go to a high voltage CC. Then they could just run some small loads off the power from that one string, or maybe we could allow it to try to wake up the GT inverters as well. This particular homeowner specifically does not want much in the way of batteries and has a smaller budget than will allow something sensible like a Sunny Island. At least in upstate NY, there are many people who would like to be able to take advantage of their solar when the sun is shining, but who just do not have the budget for a legit battery system. I am somewhat surprised that there is no simple industry solution for this yet, although maybe it is more complicated than I am making it out to be. And of course, you need a very hands on homeowner who very well understands the limitations of this kind of setup. I would certainly appreciate any feedback or comments on this, and also would like to hear if anyone has tried this kind of setup before. Thanks much! -Dave DAVE TEDEYAN, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com [17] Solar * Sustainability * Energy * Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [20] List rules ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [23] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [24] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.taitem.com [4] mailto:Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com [5] http://www.sma-america.com/ [6] http://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html [7] https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [8] http://www.facebook.com/pages/SMA-America/140290312717395 [9] http://twitter.com/SMA_America [10] http://www.smainverted.com/ [11] http://www.linkedin.com/company/364675 [12] http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL840A5336CAC32332 [13] http://smaadvance.com/signup/ [14] https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sma-america.com%2Fhome-systems%2Fpv-solar-and-storage-solutions.html&data=02%7C01%7CMichael.Mahon%40sma-america.com%7Cc4bcd59d55584c70681208d71b72e485%7Ca059b96c28294d1188374cc1ff84735d%7C0%7C0%7C637008052588484449&sdata=itzAGcXAYe0xd5Zhzjuljm6dijJW%2FRGtItHrvxRkrTI%3D&reserved=0 [15] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.taitem.com&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.mahon%40sma-america.com%7Ca35d09062e3b46cc5c5008d73dd042e7%7Ca059b96c28294d1188374cc1ff84735d%7C0%7C0%7C637045837003902636&sdata=XGHxkG2i08nFeZqwoYHn1cy7mbFuMcJkl%2FTKuXsowf8%3D&reserved=0 [18] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [19] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [21] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [22] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [23] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [24] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 428 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 428 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 717 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 480 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22585 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Sep 20 11:53:00 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 15:53:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Running a grid tied system when the grid is down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I replied to another message about code/RS. Each SPS circuit is independent, so no 240V waveform possible. And as was mentioned by Dave, be careful about planning to have motors or pumps be started by the SPS. The array cannot provide surge current like a battery, so the inverter is limited too. So check the specs of heat pump… Best- Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg][http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D54D07.DC1BFFF0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 9:07 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Running a grid tied system when the grid is down Hi Mike, For rapid shutdown, we are on NEC2014 in NY. So module level is not necessary. And the SPS is a huge reason for the SB inverters on this one. And in this case, it is almost exactly what the homeowner is looking for. But with the two inverters, can those SPS be wired into a panel rather than just into an outlet? So far, this customers house has not even been built yet. The barn is up, which is where the solar is going. So I am not 100% sure about loads, but there will likely be heat pumps. So if the SPS's can put power the same panel, then that might be just what I am looking for in this particular case. Although I am still curious if others have retrofitted other systems with something like I was initially talking about for an inverter that does not have a SPS. I think that at least in this market a low end 3rd party solution could gain a lot of traction. Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 10:58 AM Harry Mahon > wrote: Dave – how is Rapid Shutdown being complied with? And what load requires 240V – or is that needed to “fool” the PV inverters? With two SB-40s, you have the ability to wire for the homeowner two Secure Power Supply circuits – and get up to 2000W (at 120VAC) from each when sun is up and grid is down, no batteries or extra inverter needed. This is exactly the “simple industry solution” you mention, and it has been available in US from Sunny Boys only since 2013. Best regards - Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg][http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D54D07.DC1BFFF0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 7:41 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Running a grid tied system when the grid is down Hi all, I get asked this question frequently, as I am sure many others do, and of course the first answer is "it cannot be done". But can it? I have a customer who is very keen on trying to make this happen. After a few lengthy conversations, he still wants to try it, even after understanding the limitations (i.e. a cloud passes by and now you cannot power loads...) I have some thoughts on how to make this work, and thought I would post it here to get others comments who I am sure have more experience in something like this than I do. -PV system would have to be backfed, so that they can turn off the main breaker to disconnect from the utility entirely (and then have to look at the neighbors, or guess when the grid comes back) -Have a fairly small 12V off grid inverter/charger than can be powered by a single 12v battery. This inverter would have to be manually turned off until after the grid is down and the main breaker is disconnected. -Would also need an auto transformer to bump up the voltage to 240V. Something like the Outback PSX240. -Once the main breaker is off and the off grid inverter is on, would it be able to wake up the grid tied inverters? On this project, there are two SMA SB-40 inverters. -There would need to be some kind of dump/diversion load to deal with excess power coming from the GT inverters. I have not used these in the past, but are the controllers smart enough to just deal with any excess power in the system? -Have a trickle charger on the battery to keep it topped off most of the time. -Another thought would be to DC couple. This would involve having a DC switch in one of the strings going to the GT inverter, such that when the house is islanded from the grid, they can flip the switch and have that one string go to a high voltage CC. Then they could just run some small loads off the power from that one string, or maybe we could allow it to try to wake up the GT inverters as well. This particular homeowner specifically does not want much in the way of batteries and has a smaller budget than will allow something sensible like a Sunny Island. At least in upstate NY, there are many people who would like to be able to take advantage of their solar when the sun is shining, but who just do not have the budget for a legit battery system. I am somewhat surprised that there is no simple industry solution for this yet, although maybe it is more complicated than I am making it out to be. And of course, you need a very hands on homeowner who very well understands the limitations of this kind of setup. I would certainly appreciate any feedback or comments on this, and also would like to hear if anyone has tried this kind of setup before. Thanks much! -Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22585 bytes Desc: image007.jpg URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Sep 20 11:27:59 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 15:27:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Running a grid tied system when the grid is down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If using SMA’s Rapid Shutdown System, the SPS function is available as RS is initiated in the manner you described. If using the TS4 units for 2017 690.12 compliance, the SPS function is not available on the SB US-40. Each SPS circuit is independent – there is no way for two Sunny Boys to synchronize their SPS waveforms. One SPS output can be wired to safely power existing circuits to avoid having to swap plug location for loads to be run by SPS. A small 120VAC circuit transfer switch like the unit from Reliance that Goal Zero shows in REIs can do the trick (link below). The one shown by Goal Zero shows a NEMA 5-15 plug installed but since the SPS can provide 2000W, you would want to hardware the SPS into the similar hardwire Reliance unit rather than the unit with 15A plug. This transfer switch allows homeowners to swap up to four exiting home circuits from grid to SPS power should the grid fail. The SPS switch for the Sunny Boy is still required in addition to this transfer switch https://www.goalzero.com/shop/yeti-accessories/yeti-home-integration-kit/ Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg][http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D54D07.DC1BFFF0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 8:52 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Running a grid tied system when the grid is down Hi Brad, Not a bad idea with this one to run the loads off the SPS's. Has anyone ever tried wiring these directly into a panel, rather than into an outlet? And do you know if the 120V signal from each one would match up, or do they work independantly? In other words can you wire both SPS into the same panel either on different legs, or on the same leg and use an autoxfr? And with the Rapid shutdown and SPS. Does it not work with SMA's rapid shutdown box? I thought with those, the grid going down would not affect the rapid shutdown, and that it needs the signal from the controller to initiate RSD. So this way it will continue to work with the grid down. Cheers, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 10:33 AM Bradley Bassett > wrote: If you're not using the SB -40 inverter's rapid shutdown system, it has the SPS Secure Power Supply which does just what your customer wants. My understanding from talking to inverter mfg, is that trying to do AC coupling with a smaller battery inverters does not work because the anti-islanding in the grid tie inverter will be able to push the frequency off too easily. Morningstar makes a 600 VDC charge control that has an array transfer switch, so that during an outage you can switch it to use one or two strings to charge a 48 V battery bank and power any 48 V inverter. It is manual so the operator needs to change it back when the power comes back on. Brad On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 6:41 AM Dave Tedeyan > wrote: Hi all, I get asked this question frequently, as I am sure many others do, and of course the first answer is "it cannot be done". But can it? I have a customer who is very keen on trying to make this happen. After a few lengthy conversations, he still wants to try it, even after understanding the limitations (i.e. a cloud passes by and now you cannot power loads...) I have some thoughts on how to make this work, and thought I would post it here to get others comments who I am sure have more experience in something like this than I do. -PV system would have to be backfed, so that they can turn off the main breaker to disconnect from the utility entirely (and then have to look at the neighbors, or guess when the grid comes back) -Have a fairly small 12V off grid inverter/charger than can be powered by a single 12v battery. This inverter would have to be manually turned off until after the grid is down and the main breaker is disconnected. -Would also need an auto transformer to bump up the voltage to 240V. Something like the Outback PSX240. -Once the main breaker is off and the off grid inverter is on, would it be able to wake up the grid tied inverters? On this project, there are two SMA SB-40 inverters. -There would need to be some kind of dump/diversion load to deal with excess power coming from the GT inverters. I have not used these in the past, but are the controllers smart enough to just deal with any excess power in the system? -Have a trickle charger on the battery to keep it topped off most of the time. -Another thought would be to DC couple. This would involve having a DC switch in one of the strings going to the GT inverter, such that when the house is islanded from the grid, they can flip the switch and have that one string go to a high voltage CC. Then they could just run some small loads off the power from that one string, or maybe we could allow it to try to wake up the GT inverters as well. This particular homeowner specifically does not want much in the way of batteries and has a smaller budget than will allow something sensible like a Sunny Island. At least in upstate NY, there are many people who would like to be able to take advantage of their solar when the sun is shining, but who just do not have the budget for a legit battery system. I am somewhat surprised that there is no simple industry solution for this yet, although maybe it is more complicated than I am making it out to be. And of course, you need a very hands on homeowner who very well understands the limitations of this kind of setup. I would certainly appreciate any feedback or comments on this, and also would like to hear if anyone has tried this kind of setup before. Thanks much! -Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: image006.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22585 bytes Desc: image007.jpg URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 12:22:44 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 09:22:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Running a grid tied system when the grid is down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes it can be done, I was testing the sma1800 years ago with an outback 24 volt inverter and it worked fine with in its power range. On Fri, Sep 20, 2019, 6:41 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi all, > > I get asked this question frequently, as I am sure many others do, and of > course the first answer is "it cannot be done". But can it? I have a > customer who is very keen on trying to make this happen. After a few > lengthy conversations, he still wants to try it, even after understanding > the limitations (i.e. a cloud passes by and now you cannot power loads...) > > I have some thoughts on how to make this work, and thought I would post it > here to get others comments who I am sure have more experience in something > like this than I do. > > -PV system would have to be backfed, so that they can turn off the main > breaker to disconnect from the utility entirely (and then have to look at > the neighbors, or guess when the grid comes back) > -Have a fairly small 12V off grid inverter/charger than can be powered by > a single 12v battery. This inverter would have to be manually turned off > until after the grid is down and the main breaker is disconnected. > -Would also need an auto transformer to bump up the voltage to 240V. > Something like the Outback PSX240. > -Once the main breaker is off and the off grid inverter is on, would it be > able to wake up the grid tied inverters? On this project, there are two SMA > SB-40 inverters. > -There would need to be some kind of dump/diversion load to deal with > excess power coming from the GT inverters. I have not used these in the > past, but are the controllers smart enough to just deal with any excess > power in the system? > -Have a trickle charger on the battery to keep it topped off most of the > time. > > -Another thought would be to DC couple. This would involve having a DC > switch in one of the strings going to the GT inverter, such that when the > house is islanded from the grid, they can flip the switch and have that one > string go to a high voltage CC. Then they could just run some small loads > off the power from that one string, or maybe we could allow it to try to > wake up the GT inverters as well. > > This particular homeowner specifically does not want much in the way of > batteries and has a smaller budget than will allow something sensible like > a Sunny Island. > > At least in upstate NY, there are many people who would like to be able to > take advantage of their solar when the sun is shining, but who just do not > have the budget for a legit battery system. I am somewhat surprised that > there is no simple industry solution for this yet, although maybe it is > more complicated than I am making it out to be. And of course, you need a > very hands on homeowner who very well understands the limitations of this > kind of setup. > > I would certainly appreciate any feedback or comments on this, and also > would like to hear if anyone has tried this kind of setup before. > > Thanks much! > -Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Sat Sep 21 00:30:06 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 04:30:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Dual Radian System - Phase Loss Message-ID: Esteemed wrenchers..... The day before yesterday, I tried to commission a grid-tied system with two Outback Radians and an Outback FM100. I got an event saying that it had a phase loss error on Port 2 (which is the slave). I tried looking online and in the manuals, and I checked all the wiring, but I could not determine the cause of the problem. It was after hours, so I returned to the site yesterday and spent 2 hours on the phone with tech support, and I thought I had finally resolved it, but on Optics, I see that the system was throwing the same error today. It comes and goes. In my events history, it says "Inverter input on port 2 has lost phase." then it'll say "Phase Loss has cleared on Inverter port 2 input." The interesting thing is that it continues working fine even when it says the fault is active. It's selling to the grid and everything just as you would expect it to without interruption. But of course, the flashing red light is a bit concerning to the customer, and I'm a bit perplexed about it myself. Does anybody have any experience with anything like this? Does anybody have any ideas? Thank you so much!! Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Sep 21 04:14:49 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 01:14:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Dual Radian System - Phase Loss In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6c74187ad6027cc4c9fb59fea2c40fe7@mail.gmail.com> Kienan: I have been having the same error messages with a three Radian stack in off-grid mode. It was accompanied by a popping sound from one or both of the power modules and clicking of relays and flickering lights in the home, and eventually power outage. Several wrenches suggested a defective power module. I replaced the module yesterday and no complaints so far. Symptoms are a bit different, so I can’t say for sure the problems are related. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kienan Maxfield *Sent:* Friday, September 20, 2019 9:30 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Outback Dual Radian System - Phase Loss Esteemed wrenchers..... The day before yesterday, I tried to commission a grid-tied system with two Outback Radians and an Outback FM100. I got an event saying that it had a phase loss error on Port 2 (which is the slave). I tried looking online and in the manuals, and I checked all the wiring, but I could not determine the cause of the problem. It was after hours, so I returned to the site yesterday and spent 2 hours on the phone with tech support, and I thought I had finally resolved it, but on Optics, I see that the system was throwing the same error today. It comes and goes. In my events history, it says "*Inverter input on port 2 has lost phase*." then it'll say "*Phase Loss has cleared on Inverter port 2 input.*" The interesting thing is that it continues working fine even when it says the fault is active. It's selling to the grid and everything just as you would expect it to without interruption. But of course, the flashing red light is a bit concerning to the customer, and I'm a bit perplexed about it myself. Does anybody have any experience with anything like this? Does anybody have any ideas? Thank you so much!! Kienan *Maxfield Solar* *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* *(801) 631-5584** (Cell)* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Sep 21 14:44:59 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 12:44:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Light Flicker Off grid Message-ID: <526d5b31-fd2e-f206-7c44-eb8d2599538f@solarray.com> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; We have a customer with a new high efficiency washer running on a Magnum inverter.  When it is in wash cycle, the LED lights flicker rhythmically with its operation.  We can see a corresponding distortion of the wave form on an oscilloscope, but RMS voltage is steady at 117 vac.  It does not cause trouble with incandescent lighting, and the washer works fine. My questions: 1) Has anyone else seen washing machines causing trouble with lighting or other loads? 2) Is there any line filtering available that might cure this? 3)  Are some LED lights more prone to issues?    We are considering having the customer switch from the Home Depot cheapo LEDs to Phillips or other higher end bulbs. 4) Could it be related to the bulbs being dimmable?  Should we be using non-dimmable bulbs? As always thanks in advance for your invaluable input and comments. -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Sat Sep 21 15:17:33 2019 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 15:17:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Light Flicker Off grid In-Reply-To: <526d5b31-fd2e-f206-7c44-eb8d2599538f@solarray.com> References: <526d5b31-fd2e-f206-7c44-eb8d2599538f@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, I had a very similar issue a while back. The root cause turned out to be the dimming switch and related LED bulbs. Instant fix. Hope this helps. -Chris On Sat, Sep 21, 2019 at 2:45 PM Ray wrote: > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; > > We have a customer with a new high efficiency washer running on a Magnum > inverter. When it is in wash cycle, the LED lights flicker rhythmically > with its operation. We can see a corresponding distortion of the wave > form on an oscilloscope, but RMS voltage is steady at 117 vac. It does > not cause trouble with incandescent lighting, and the washer works fine. > > My questions: > > 1) Has anyone else seen washing machines causing trouble with lighting > or other loads? > > 2) Is there any line filtering available that might cure this? > > 3) Are some LED lights more prone to issues? We are considering > having the customer switch from the Home Depot cheapo LEDs to Phillips > or other higher end bulbs. > > 4) Could it be related to the bulbs being dimmable? Should we be using > non-dimmable bulbs? > > As always thanks in advance for your invaluable input and comments. > > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Sep 21 15:24:35 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 12:24:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Light Flicker Off grid In-Reply-To: <526d5b31-fd2e-f206-7c44-eb8d2599538f@solarray.com> References: <526d5b31-fd2e-f206-7c44-eb8d2599538f@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray A few questions, do you see a code, what size is the inverter, batteries, cables, day or night operation. Jerry On Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 11:45 AM Ray wrote: > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; > > We have a customer with a new high efficiency washer running on a Magnum > inverter. When it is in wash cycle, the LED lights flicker rhythmically > with its operation. We can see a corresponding distortion of the wave > form on an oscilloscope, but RMS voltage is steady at 117 vac. It does > not cause trouble with incandescent lighting, and the washer works fine. > > My questions: > > 1) Has anyone else seen washing machines causing trouble with lighting > or other loads? > > 2) Is there any line filtering available that might cure this? > > 3) Are some LED lights more prone to issues? We are considering > having the customer switch from the Home Depot cheapo LEDs to Phillips > or other higher end bulbs. > > 4) Could it be related to the bulbs being dimmable? Should we be using > non-dimmable bulbs? > > As always thanks in advance for your invaluable input and comments. > > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Sep 21 16:01:42 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 14:01:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Light Flicker Off grid In-Reply-To: References: <526d5b31-fd2e-f206-7c44-eb8d2599538f@solarray.com> Message-ID: No error codes, just light flickering with the washing action. Its a Magnum MS 4448 PAE, 48 v 845 AH of HUP batteries, 2/0 cables.  Happens day or night.  Also the lights are not on a dimmer, just a regular switch.  It happens to the LEDs all over the house.  They are the Econolight brand from Home Depot.  Feit brand have less flicker, but are still not acceptable. We're thinking the distortion of the waveform by the washer is creating harmonic distortion that the LEDs are responding to. Still hoping filtering or different bulbs will fix the issue. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/21/19 1:24 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Ray > A few questions, do you see a code, what size is the inverter, > batteries, cables, day or night operation. > Jerry > > On Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 11:45 AM Ray > wrote: > > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; > > We have a customer with a new high efficiency washer running on a > Magnum > inverter.  When it is in wash cycle, the LED lights flicker > rhythmically > with its operation.  We can see a corresponding distortion of the > wave > form on an oscilloscope, but RMS voltage is steady at 117 vac.  It > does > not cause trouble with incandescent lighting, and the washer works > fine. > > My questions: > > 1) Has anyone else seen washing machines causing trouble with > lighting > or other loads? > > 2) Is there any line filtering available that might cure this? > > 3)  Are some LED lights more prone to issues?    We are considering > having the customer switch from the Home Depot cheapo LEDs to > Phillips > or other higher end bulbs. > > 4) Could it be related to the bulbs being dimmable?  Should we be > using > non-dimmable bulbs? > > As always thanks in advance for your invaluable input and comments. > > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sat Sep 21 17:59:48 2019 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 14:59:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Light Flicker Off grid In-Reply-To: References: <526d5b31-fd2e-f206-7c44-eb8d2599538f@solarray.com> Message-ID: I've noticed this is worse with multiple bulbs in one fixture, and it is even slightly noticeable on grid power, but worse on inverter power. I first saw this with CFL's also, but not as bad as with the LED's. And this is without any motor loads going. It's not consistent either, sometimes it does it and sometimes not. Fortunately, when it's annoying we have the option of going onto grid power. If we were on inverter power all the time I'd be looking for some way to fix it also. It does not seem to matter what inverter it is either, I've tried four different brands and they all seem about the same. Brad On Sat, Sep 21, 2019 at 1:06 PM Ray wrote: > No error codes, just light flickering with the washing action. Its a > Magnum MS 4448 PAE, 48 v 845 AH of HUP batteries, 2/0 cables. Happens day > or night. Also the lights are not on a dimmer, just a regular switch. It > happens to the LEDs all over the house. They are the Econolight brand from > Home Depot. Feit brand have less flicker, but are still not acceptable. > > We're thinking the distortion of the waveform by the washer is creating > harmonic distortion that the LEDs are responding to. Still hoping > filtering or different bulbs will fix the issue. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/21/19 1:24 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Ray > A few questions, do you see a code, what size is the inverter, batteries, > cables, day or night operation. > Jerry > > On Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 11:45 AM Ray wrote: > >> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; >> >> We have a customer with a new high efficiency washer running on a Magnum >> inverter. When it is in wash cycle, the LED lights flicker rhythmically >> with its operation. We can see a corresponding distortion of the wave >> form on an oscilloscope, but RMS voltage is steady at 117 vac. It does >> not cause trouble with incandescent lighting, and the washer works fine. >> >> My questions: >> >> 1) Has anyone else seen washing machines causing trouble with lighting >> or other loads? >> >> 2) Is there any line filtering available that might cure this? >> >> 3) Are some LED lights more prone to issues? We are considering >> having the customer switch from the Home Depot cheapo LEDs to Phillips >> or other higher end bulbs. >> >> 4) Could it be related to the bulbs being dimmable? Should we be using >> non-dimmable bulbs? >> >> As always thanks in advance for your invaluable input and comments. >> >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Sep 21 17:29:35 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 14:29:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Light Flicker Off grid In-Reply-To: References: <526d5b31-fd2e-f206-7c44-eb8d2599538f@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray What’s the timeline here. New washer? All worked before? Or totally new system? Jay > On Sep 21, 2019, at 1:01 PM, Ray wrote: > > No error codes, just light flickering with the washing action. Its a Magnum MS 4448 PAE, 48 v 845 AH of HUP batteries, 2/0 cables. Happens day or night. Also the lights are not on a dimmer, just a regular switch. It happens to the LEDs all over the house. They are the Econolight brand from Home Depot. Feit brand have less flicker, but are still not acceptable. > > We're thinking the distortion of the waveform by the washer is creating harmonic distortion that the LEDs are responding to. Still hoping filtering or different bulbs will fix the issue. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 >> On 9/21/19 1:24 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> Ray >> A few questions, do you see a code, what size is the inverter, batteries, cables, day or night operation. >> Jerry >> >>> On Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 11:45 AM Ray wrote: >>> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; >>> >>> We have a customer with a new high efficiency washer running on a Magnum >>> inverter. When it is in wash cycle, the LED lights flicker rhythmically >>> with its operation. We can see a corresponding distortion of the wave >>> form on an oscilloscope, but RMS voltage is steady at 117 vac. It does >>> not cause trouble with incandescent lighting, and the washer works fine. >>> >>> My questions: >>> >>> 1) Has anyone else seen washing machines causing trouble with lighting >>> or other loads? >>> >>> 2) Is there any line filtering available that might cure this? >>> >>> 3) Are some LED lights more prone to issues? We are considering >>> having the customer switch from the Home Depot cheapo LEDs to Phillips >>> or other higher end bulbs. >>> >>> 4) Could it be related to the bulbs being dimmable? Should we be using >>> non-dimmable bulbs? >>> >>> As always thanks in advance for your invaluable input and comments. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Sep 21 16:10:18 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 13:10:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Light Flicker Off grid In-Reply-To: References: <526d5b31-fd2e-f206-7c44-eb8d2599538f@solarray.com> Message-ID: <4775e0de64975b20f0b2c0f6a90ff946@127.0.0.1> I have seen this with the dimmer below 50% with well/transfer pumps. I only use the costco FEIT bulbs/CREE and no issues on XW and CSW. Avoid dimmers or use less than 30% of dimming. I don't think the bulb being dimmable is the issue either. It is more apparent at night when you dim an LED. Tell them not to do laundry at night Good Luck Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 [3] On Sat, 21 Sep 2019 12:24:35 -0700, Jerry Shafer wrote: Ray A few questions, do you see a code, what size is the inverter, batteries, cables, day or night operation. Jerry On Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 11:45 AM Ray wrote: Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; We have a customer with a new high efficiency washer running on a Magnum inverter. When it is in wash cycle, the LED lights flicker rhythmically with its operation. We can see a corresponding distortion of the wave form on an oscilloscope, but RMS voltage is steady at 117 vac. It does not cause trouble with incandescent lighting, and the washer works fine. My questions: 1) Has anyone else seen washing machines causing trouble with lighting or other loads? 2) Is there any line filtering available that might cure this? 3) Are some LED lights more prone to issues? We are considering having the customer switch from the Home Depot cheapo LEDs to Phillips or other higher end bulbs. 4) Could it be related to the bulbs being dimmable? Should we be using non-dimmable bulbs? As always thanks in advance for your invaluable input and comments. -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://www.ascopower.com/us/en/products/transfer-switches.jsp [4] mailto:ray at solarray.com [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Sep 21 18:26:41 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 15:26:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Light Flicker Off grid In-Reply-To: References: <526d5b31-fd2e-f206-7c44-eb8d2599538f@solarray.com> Message-ID: <095C04F5-3D9C-4890-BE03-4242F547F7F1@gmail.com> I”ve got a old VFX and all LED’s of many different brands. I don’t have any flicker regardless of what’s on: HE washer, refrigerator, blender etc. Except with the dimmer, which can do it if it’s on a lower setting. I only use CREE LED with dimmers as they are dimmer agnostic. If its happening with high quality LEDs ( Cree, Phillips) and without dimmers then I’d look to the inverter as the issue. jay > On Sep 21, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > > I've noticed this is worse with multiple bulbs in one fixture, and it is even slightly noticeable on grid power, but worse on inverter power. I first saw this with CFL's also, but not as bad as with the LED's. And this is without any motor loads going. It's not consistent either, sometimes it does it and sometimes not. Fortunately, when it's annoying we have the option of going onto grid power. If we were on inverter power all the time I'd be looking for some way to fix it also. It does not seem to matter what inverter it is either, I've tried four different brands and they all seem about the same. > > Brad > > On Sat, Sep 21, 2019 at 1:06 PM Ray > wrote: > No error codes, just light flickering with the washing action. Its a Magnum MS 4448 PAE, 48 v 845 AH of HUP batteries, 2/0 cables. Happens day or night. Also the lights are not on a dimmer, just a regular switch. It happens to the LEDs all over the house. They are the Econolight brand from Home Depot. Feit brand have less flicker, but are still not acceptable. > > We're thinking the distortion of the waveform by the washer is creating harmonic distortion that the LEDs are responding to. Still hoping filtering or different bulbs will fix the issue. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 9/21/19 1:24 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> Ray >> A few questions, do you see a code, what size is the inverter, batteries, cables, day or night operation. >> Jerry >> >> On Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 11:45 AM Ray > wrote: >> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; >> >> We have a customer with a new high efficiency washer running on a Magnum >> inverter. When it is in wash cycle, the LED lights flicker rhythmically >> with its operation. We can see a corresponding distortion of the wave >> form on an oscilloscope, but RMS voltage is steady at 117 vac. It does >> not cause trouble with incandescent lighting, and the washer works fine. >> >> My questions: >> >> 1) Has anyone else seen washing machines causing trouble with lighting >> or other loads? >> >> 2) Is there any line filtering available that might cure this? >> >> 3) Are some LED lights more prone to issues? We are considering >> having the customer switch from the Home Depot cheapo LEDs to Phillips >> or other higher end bulbs. >> >> 4) Could it be related to the bulbs being dimmable? Should we be using >> non-dimmable bulbs? >> >> As always thanks in advance for your invaluable input and comments. >> >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sat Sep 21 19:49:32 2019 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 18:49:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Light Flicker Off grid In-Reply-To: <526d5b31-fd2e-f206-7c44-eb8d2599538f@solarray.com> References: <526d5b31-fd2e-f206-7c44-eb8d2599538f@solarray.com> Message-ID: May I suggest getting a couple high quality LED bulbs. CREE and other brands have a high Power Factor. The intermittent power factor swings of the washer may be jacking with the PF of the cheap bulbs. Thank you, Maverick > On Sep 21, 2019, at 1:44 PM, Ray wrote: > > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; > > We have a customer with a new high efficiency washer running on a Magnum inverter. When it is in wash cycle, the LED lights flicker rhythmically with its operation. We can see a corresponding distortion of the wave form on an oscilloscope, but RMS voltage is steady at 117 vac. It does not cause trouble with incandescent lighting, and the washer works fine. > > My questions: > > 1) Has anyone else seen washing machines causing trouble with lighting or other loads? > > 2) Is there any line filtering available that might cure this? > > 3) Are some LED lights more prone to issues? We are considering having the customer switch from the Home Depot cheapo LEDs to Phillips or other higher end bulbs. > > 4) Could it be related to the bulbs being dimmable? Should we be using non-dimmable bulbs? > > As always thanks in advance for your invaluable input and comments. > > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From ray at solarray.com Sat Sep 21 21:21:49 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 19:21:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Light Flicker Off grid In-Reply-To: References: <526d5b31-fd2e-f206-7c44-eb8d2599538f@solarray.com> Message-ID: <7c04971e-bf83-08dd-6282-75b8c1462aae@solarray.com> New inverter installed followed by new washer.  Old Trace SW didn't have issues, but didn't have the washer either.  I suspect it wouldn't have operated at all on the Trace. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/21/19 3:29 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi Ray > > What’s the timeline here. > New washer? All worked before? > Or totally new system? > > Jay > > On Sep 21, 2019, at 1:01 PM, Ray > wrote: > >> No error codes, just light flickering with the washing action.  Its a >> Magnum MS 4448 PAE, 48 v 845 AH of HUP batteries, 2/0 cables.  >> Happens day or night.  Also the lights are not on a dimmer, just a >> regular switch.  It happens to the LEDs all over the house.  They are >> the Econolight brand from Home Depot.  Feit brand have less flicker, >> but are still not acceptable. >> >> We're thinking the distortion of the waveform by the washer is >> creating harmonic distortion that the LEDs are responding to.  Still >> hoping filtering or different bulbs will fix the issue. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 9/21/19 1:24 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> Ray >>> A few questions, do you see a code, what size is the inverter, >>> batteries, cables, day or night operation. >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 11:45 AM Ray >> > wrote: >>> >>> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; >>> >>> We have a customer with a new high efficiency washer running on >>> a Magnum >>> inverter.  When it is in wash cycle, the LED lights flicker >>> rhythmically >>> with its operation.  We can see a corresponding distortion of >>> the wave >>> form on an oscilloscope, but RMS voltage is steady at 117 vac.  >>> It does >>> not cause trouble with incandescent lighting, and the washer >>> works fine. >>> >>> My questions: >>> >>> 1) Has anyone else seen washing machines causing trouble with >>> lighting >>> or other loads? >>> >>> 2) Is there any line filtering available that might cure this? >>> >>> 3)  Are some LED lights more prone to issues?    We are considering >>> having the customer switch from the Home Depot cheapo LEDs to >>> Phillips >>> or other higher end bulbs. >>> >>> 4) Could it be related to the bulbs being dimmable? Should we be >>> using >>> non-dimmable bulbs? >>> >>> As always thanks in advance for your invaluable input and comments. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Sun Sep 22 08:01:46 2019 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 08:01:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flex panels? In-Reply-To: <7849F715-F73E-4C70-9328-FBD15E9B6ED2@swnl.net> References: <004201d56e3d$5003bba0$f00b32e0$@solarwork.com> <7849F715-F73E-4C70-9328-FBD15E9B6ED2@swnl.net> Message-ID: <000801d5713d$81f5efe0$85e1cfa0$@mindspring.com> Might look at Hanergy, they have them as well. Believe there is a reseller is south florida. peter From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Tump Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 6:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flex panels? Contact Joe Marieno @Mia Sole 707-331-4030 On Sep 18, 2019, at 12:22 PM, Dana > wrote: Hey there All – I have a new client that has an over the top [$100K+] 4X4 off road camper that has glued down flex PV modules that have died, faded PCV front sheets with no output. I suggested a framed module but client in more interested in a flexible type of glue down module. Any suggestions on a flexible possibly glue down type of PV module, supplier suggestions? Thanks in advance. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Sep 22 11:09:15 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 08:09:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flex panels? In-Reply-To: <7849F715-F73E-4C70-9328-FBD15E9B6ED2@swnl.net> References: <004201d56e3d$5003bba0$f00b32e0$@solarwork.com> <7849F715-F73E-4C70-9328-FBD15E9B6ED2@swnl.net> Message-ID: He does go by Joseph but he does have a flex module with increased power over the Unisolar module On Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 3:15 PM Tump wrote: > Contact Joe Marieno @Mia Sole 707-331-4030 > > On Sep 18, 2019, at 12:22 PM, Dana wrote: > > Hey there All – > > I have a new client that has an over the top [$100K+] 4X4 off road camper > that has glued down flex PV modules that have died, faded PCV front sheets > with no output. > I suggested a framed module but client in more interested in a flexible > type of glue down module. > > Any suggestions on a flexible possibly glue down type of PV module, > supplier suggestions? > Thanks in advance. > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Sep 22 13:45:16 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 10:45:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback 200 PLC questions Message-ID: <61A966CE-E089-416E-96B0-3613F5F5C3C8@gmail.com> HI all, I’m wondering if anyone has been able to determine is there is a conditioning/refresh charge for the outback 200PLC batteries And if so what the set points would be. Most of the newer VRLA especially those with low charge voltages seem to have this but is rarely mentioned in the specs, and calling the OEM works. But OB doesn’t seem to have anything. I've been under the assumption that Enersys is the OEM, but if thats true, I can’t find it on their website. Any help would be appreciated thanks jay From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sun Sep 22 19:18:40 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 19:18:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] need for outdoor DC disconnect In-Reply-To: <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> References: <004f01d5214f$98a26450$c9e72cf0$@icloud.com> <00a301d52166$acbac600$06305200$@icloud.com> Message-ID: If you want to bring it up to 2017, you would need RS. It would be very expensive to retrofit this project to shut down within the 2017 boundary limits of one foot or less depending upon technology being used. If you are not changing anything on the roof, you won't be 2017 compliant.  I am pretty sure that you always had to have the dc conductors in metallic conduit within the structure. I also think you had to have an dc disconnect at the nearest accessible entry point within the building.  To make the system reasonably safe and not 2017 compliant, I would add metallic conduit to the inside, and add a dc disconnect, external or internal, add a directory citing where the ac and dc disconnects are.  This is definitely not going to make you 2017 compliant, but as was pointed out, this system is most likely grandfathered. Chris On 6/12/2019 5:34 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > I am not required to meet 2017 code. In Florida, they are only up to > the 2011 code. I want to bring it up to NEC2017 regardless. So for my > questions,  assume the 2017 code is relevant. And it is a flat carport > roof, the rack is mounted at a fixed tilt of about 20 degrees. Understood? > > *From:*RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Ray > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 12, 2019 4:24 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] need for outdoor DC disconnect > > Are you required to meet the latest code?  In many retrofit/ > replacement situations, you are only required to meet the code > requirements of the date the original system was installed. Metal vs > PVC is dependent on the code version you are meeting.  Was metal a NEC > 2008 requirement? I don't have my old code versions here.   When metal > is required, its only from the point of entry into the building to the > inverter, so if you mount the inverter outdoors, it doesn't have to > change either.  I've got lots of legacy systems that have PVC  on the > inside, and never had an issue.  Seems like more trouble to change out > than its worth, but if the AHJ requires it, then yes. > > Also, you didn't mention if the array was roof or ground mounted, > which would effect the 690.12 interpretation. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 6/12/19 12:49 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > All, > > I am retrofitting an existing PV system with Storedge / LG Chem / > optimizers and updating some code issues. I am replacing the PVC > conduit carrying the array conductors into the building with > metallic raceway to the point of DC disconnect(i.e. the inverter). >  The array is presently connected to an Outback inverter / FM60 > controller / AGM batteries (grid tied with backup). If I am > interpreting NEC 690.12 etc. correctly, a DC disconnect outdoors > is generally not required because of new rapid shutdown > capability, amongst other reasons. Would this be the case > regardless of metal or plastic conduit penetrating the building? > The system at present has no outdoor DC disco, and to me that’s a > violation in addition to lack of metallic raceway entering the > building. Thanks. > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > */Celebrating our 28^th Anniversary 1991-2019/* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com > * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEP^TM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Sep 22 19:24:14 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 16:24:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU2000i output V adjustment Message-ID: <1b1bc20fd8483a93e1f08223cc123fbe@127.0.0.1> I have a client that needs to adjust the output voltage on a honda eu2000i. I have looked on the web and can't find anything. Does anyone know if it is adjustable? It may not be. Thank-you! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Sep 23 09:11:49 2019 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 09:11:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] seeking PV mounting advice to Shipping Container for Off-grid Message-ID: G'Day All, I'm looking for anyone with advice that has mounted PV to a shipping container roof with minimal to no roof penetrations. The container will not be required to be transported with PV attached, only the racking and only one time to project site. They will not be mounted flat but prefer a 35 degree angle. I was thinking of Unirac's ULA series as they use to have an adjustable leg. I'm not only seeking racking brands but also any, "if I ever did this again I would..." advice. Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 09:48:34 2019 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 06:48:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback 200 PLC questions In-Reply-To: <61A966CE-E089-416E-96B0-3613F5F5C3C8@gmail.com> References: <61A966CE-E089-416E-96B0-3613F5F5C3C8@gmail.com> Message-ID: The 200PLC was not an Enersys battery, and is no longer available, the upcoming 200HLC will be the Enersys replacement for the 200PLC. The manual for the 200-PLC is posted here: PLC_User_Manual.pdf Brad AEE Solar On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 3:06 PM jay wrote: > HI all, > > I’m wondering if anyone has been able to determine is there is a > conditioning/refresh charge for the outback 200PLC batteries > > And if so what the set points would be. > > Most of the newer VRLA especially those with low charge voltages seem to > have this but is rarely mentioned in the specs, and calling the OEM works. > But OB doesn’t seem to have anything. > > I've been under the assumption that Enersys is the OEM, but if thats true, > I can’t find it on their website. > > Any help would be appreciated > > thanks > > jay > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Mon Sep 23 11:11:45 2019 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 08:11:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] seeking PV mounting advice to Shipping Container for Off-grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Check this company out. They have a pretty slick solution. On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 6:12 AM Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'Day All, > > I'm looking for anyone with advice that has mounted PV to a > shipping container roof with minimal to no roof penetrations. The container > will not be required to be transported with PV attached, only the racking > and only one time to project site. They will not be mounted flat but prefer > a 35 degree angle. I was thinking of Unirac's ULA series as they use to > have an adjustable leg. I'm not only seeking racking brands but also any, > "if I ever did this again I would..." advice. > > Thanks, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Mon Sep 23 11:39:42 2019 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (petertor@pobox.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 08:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] I need a 1kW 120Vac Inverter Message-ID: <1843114549.394072.1569253182741@mailbusiness.ionos.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 12:46:18 2019 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 12:46:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] seeking PV mounting advice to Shipping Container for Off-grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a bunch of containers, I put solar on a couple. I would weld tabs onto the container so as to avoid penetrations. The worst thing about containers is they leak, so holes in the top are a problem. In fact, I would weld on tabs, put galvanized stringers cross at an angle, put galvanized purloins along the length of the container, put galvanized corrugated sheeting on the purloins and the racking of your choice on top. That way the container roof won't rust and leak, you have your angle, and the container will be cooler. On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 11:12 AM Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: > Check this company out. They have a pretty slick > solution. > > On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 6:12 AM Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> G'Day All, >> >> I'm looking for anyone with advice that has mounted PV to a >> shipping container roof with minimal to no roof penetrations. The container >> will not be required to be transported with PV attached, only the racking >> and only one time to project site. They will not be mounted flat but prefer >> a 35 degree angle. I was thinking of Unirac's ULA series as they use to >> have an adjustable leg. I'm not only seeking racking brands but also any, >> "if I ever did this again I would..." advice. >> >> Thanks, >> Christopher- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Loren Ortiz > Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid > > loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com > > *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* > > > > > > > *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 12:58:01 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 09:58:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] seeking PV mounting advice to Shipping Container for Off-grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have done this and if you dont want y holes use unistrut and have it welded to the roof deck edges and from the channel nuts and up you go Jerry On Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 6:12 AM Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'Day All, > > I'm looking for anyone with advice that has mounted PV to a > shipping container roof with minimal to no roof penetrations. The container > will not be required to be transported with PV attached, only the racking > and only one time to project site. They will not be mounted flat but prefer > a 35 degree angle. I was thinking of Unirac's ULA series as they use to > have an adjustable leg. I'm not only seeking racking brands but also any, > "if I ever did this again I would..." advice. > > Thanks, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Sep 23 12:59:12 2019 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 16:59:12 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU2000i output V adjustment In-Reply-To: <1b1bc20fd8483a93e1f08223cc123fbe@127.0.0.1> References: <1b1bc20fd8483a93e1f08223cc123fbe@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <694cdba4baa24b06802a2bb1d14f5482@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> No, this is not adjustable. Bear in mind these are not like standard generators where you can adjust the AVR/RPM. These are inverter/generators. I have had instances of bad inverter boards causing low voltage. That's a repair, not an adjustment. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: September-22-19 4:24 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU2000i output V adjustment I have a client that needs to adjust the output voltage on a honda eu2000i. I have looked on the web and can't find anything. Does anyone know if it is adjustable? It may not be. Thank-you! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 22:44:00 2019 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Jesse Dahl) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 21:44:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flex panels? In-Reply-To: <000801d5713d$81f5efe0$85e1cfa0$@mindspring.com> References: <004201d56e3d$5003bba0$f00b32e0$@solarwork.com> <7849F715-F73E-4C70-9328-FBD15E9B6ED2@swnl.net> <000801d5713d$81f5efe0$85e1cfa0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9DE13D33-CD96-4833-978B-5CFB21E6622F@gmail.com> I bought a couple from Iron Edison a year or so ago. Can’t recall the brand however. Not sure if they still carry them. Jesse Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 22, 2019, at 7:01 AM, wrote: > > Might look at Hanergy, they have them as well. Believe there is a reseller is south florida. > > peter > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Tump > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 6:16 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flex panels? > > Contact Joe Marieno @Mia Sole 707-331-4030 > On Sep 18, 2019, at 12:22 PM, Dana wrote: > > Hey there All – > > I have a new client that has an over the top [$100K+] 4X4 off road camper that has glued down flex PV modules that have died, faded PCV front sheets with no output. > I suggested a framed module but client in more interested in a flexible type of glue down module. > > Any suggestions on a flexible possibly glue down type of PV module, supplier suggestions? > Thanks in advance. > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 01:50:02 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 00:50:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU2000i output V adjustment In-Reply-To: <694cdba4baa24b06802a2bb1d14f5482@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <1b1bc20fd8483a93e1f08223cc123fbe@127.0.0.1> <694cdba4baa24b06802a2bb1d14f5482@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: Can you use a buck boost transformer? My old memory says 8% or 16% buck or boost depending upon connection And the buck-boost only handles 20% of the energy such that a 400 VA is all that is required for 2kVA. On Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 12:56 PM Kevin Pegg wrote: > No, this is not adjustable. Bear in mind these are not like standard > generators where you can adjust the AVR/RPM. These are inverter/generators. > I have had instances of bad inverter boards causing low voltage. That's a > repair, not an adjustment. > > > > Kevin > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > *Sent:* September-22-19 4:24 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Honda EU2000i output V adjustment > > > > I have a client that needs to adjust the output voltage on a honda > eu2000i. I have looked on the web and can't find anything. > > Does anyone know if it is adjustable? It may not be. Thank-you! > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Sep 24 11:30:04 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 08:30:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU2000i output V adjustment In-Reply-To: References: <1b1bc20fd8483a93e1f08223cc123fbe@127.0.0.1> <694cdba4baa24b06802a2bb1d14f5482@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: We ended up usine a 50 foot #14 extension cord and the drop got the 2000i to play nice with the magnum. Outback and Schneider have a much wider input range and this was an older Magnum. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 00:50:02 -0500, Darryl Thayer wrote: Can you use a buck boost transformer? My old memory says 8% or 16% buck or boost depending upon connection And the buck-boost only handles 20% of the energy such that a 400 VA is all that is required for 2kVA. On Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 12:56 PM Kevin Pegg wrote: No, this is not adjustable. Bear in mind these are not like standard generators where you can adjust the AVR/RPM. These are inverter/generators. I have had instances of bad inverter boards causing low voltage. That's a repair, not an adjustment. Kevin FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [4]] ON BEHALF OF Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar SENT: September-22-19 4:24 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU2000i output V adjustment I have a client that needs to adjust the output voltage on a honda eu2000i. I have looked on the web and can't find anything. Does anyone know if it is adjustable? It may not be. Thank-you! DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:KPegg at energyalternatives.ca [4] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Sep 24 12:39:16 2019 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 09:39:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU2000i output V adjustment - Magnum Energy In-Reply-To: References: <1b1bc20fd8483a93e1f08223cc123fbe@127.0.0.1> <694cdba4baa24b06802a2bb1d14f5482@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: Hi Dave, I’m curious, can you describe the problem you had with a Magnum inverter and the 2000i generator? Since Magnum was founded we have sold and installed their inverters to customers using the 2000i, many hundreds of customers. Not one has reported a problem. As long as you decrease the charge rate to about 50% or less, they work flawlessly. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 24, 2019, at 8:30 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: We ended up usine a 50 foot #14 extension cord and the drop got the 2000i to play nice with the magnum. Outback and Schneider have a much wider input range and this was an older Magnum. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Tue Sep 24 18:35:43 2019 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 18:35:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU2000i output V adjustment - Magnum Energy In-Reply-To: References: <1b1bc20fd8483a93e1f08223cc123fbe@127.0.0.1> <694cdba4baa24b06802a2bb1d14f5482@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: I have used many older magnums with the 2000 W Honda‘s and the Harbor Freight version with no problems whatsoever The key is to set the maximum charging down to under the limit of the inverter I’m presently running a harbor freight 3500 W inverter generator it charges at 70% and runs flawlessly Best 600 bucks I ever spent Bob ellison > On Sep 24, 2019, at 12:39 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > I’m curious, can you describe the problem you had with a Magnum inverter and the 2000i generator? Since Magnum was founded we have sold and installed their inverters to customers using the 2000i, many hundreds of customers. Not one has reported a problem. As long as you decrease the charge rate to about 50% or less, they work flawlessly. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > On Sep 24, 2019, at 8:30 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > We ended up usine a 50 foot #14 extension cord and the drop got the 2000i to play nice with the magnum. Outback and Schneider have a much wider input range and this was an older Magnum. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Sep 24 19:00:38 2019 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 16:00:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU2000i output V adjustment - Magnum Energy In-Reply-To: References: <1b1bc20fd8483a93e1f08223cc123fbe@127.0.0.1> <694cdba4baa24b06802a2bb1d14f5482@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <2FD90EA0-E9FD-4202-B421-6A9A48F53675@starlightsolar.com> (my response to private email) Magnums were designed for the RV industry which depends heavily on generator use for AC power. Because of that their allowable input is broad at 50 to 70 Hz and 60 to 140 VAC (120 VAC nominal). The customer must have a defective control board if it will not allow above 125 Vac. Control boards are not to pricy and very easy to replace. Hope that helps. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 24, 2019, at 9:39 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Hi Dave, I’m curious, can you describe the problem you had with a Magnum inverter and the 2000i generator? Since Magnum was founded we have sold and installed their inverters to customers using the 2000i, many hundreds of customers. Not one has reported a problem. As long as you decrease the charge rate to about 50% or less, they work flawlessly. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 24, 2019, at 8:30 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: We ended up usine a 50 foot #14 extension cord and the drop got the 2000i to play nice with the magnum. Outback and Schneider have a much wider input range and this was an older Magnum. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Sep 25 08:25:00 2019 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 12:25:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA -41 and TS4 Message-ID: Hello Does anyone know if the SMA ROOFTOP COMMUNICATION KIT works with the new -41 inverters? Regards , Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Sep 26 14:39:33 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 14:39:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Eversource utility in CT Message-ID: Hi All, I am doing a residential design for someone in CT. I am not familiar with the utility there. Does anyone know whether the Eversource utility requires an external AC disconnect for PV systems? And is that disconnect required at the house or at the meter (if the meter is on a pedestal near the road)? This is a fairly simple roof mounted system, <25kw. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Sep 26 14:27:55 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 14:27:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low OC Voltage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1569522537551.4e73804b142a9ad8@redwoodalliance.org> This is a follow up on an old post about a failed LKD module. I wrote that I'd give follow up information when it became available. It turned out that some of the fine circuitry on the face of the module was fried: according to my friend, it looked welded. Drake At 09:59 AM 6/19/2019, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >Dave, > >I gave the module to a friend who is going to go >into the J-Box. If there are any conclusions I >can post them on the list, but don't know when she plans to attempt the repair. > >Thanks, > >Drake > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >"RE-wrenches" > >To: >"RE-wrenches" >Cc: > >Sent: >Tue, 18 Jun 2019 14:57:47 -0400 >Subject: >Re: [RE-wrenches] Low OC Voltage > > >Drake, >If you want to find out for sure, often you >should be able to open up the jbox on the back >and poke around. It certainly is somewhat >destructive, but you may find that either a >diode is not the issue, or it is fixable. >Sometimes you do have to pull out potting >though. I have restored modules for second hand >use that otherwise would have ended up in the >dump this way. Obviously though it wont be like new anymore. >Cheers, >Dave > >Dave Tedeyan, PE >Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > >110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >www.taitem.com > >Solar •Â Sustainability •Â Energy •Â Design >B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > > >On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:26 PM ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: >The outside temperature was unseasonably cool, maybe 55 degrees. > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >"RE-wrenches" ><re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > >To: >"RE-wrenches" ><re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >Cc: > >Sent: >Thu, 13 Jun 2019 09:25:39 -0400 >Subject: >Re: [RE-wrenches] Low OC Voltage > > >Drake, >At what temperature did you get that reading? If >it was very hot, then that could just be poor >temperature characteristics of the module. I >have run into some modules, specifically >Suniva's, that just do very poorly in warm >temperatures. Otherwise, if the voltage is >approximately 2/3 of what you would expect, then >it is usually an issue in the module jbox. >Either a bad diode or failed solder connection. >This case is odd, because it is a little bit >more than 2/3 the voltage. So maybe it was very >cold with 1/3 the module not working, or very >hot. Also, taking a look with an IR camera when >the system is functioning can often show if 1/3 >the module is not working or if there are some bad cells in the module. > >Cheers, >Dave > >Dave Tedeyan, PE >Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > >110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >www.taitem.com > >Solar •Â Sustainability •Â Energy •Â Design >B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > > >On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 7:05 PM Drake ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: >Hello Wrenches, > >Would you expect a low open circuit voltage in a >module to be due to a problem in the J-box / >diodes or the module itself? The OC voltage read >about 28.3 V, where as the STC OC voltage of the module is 37.3. > >The module is an LDK 240, which means no warranty. > >Thanks, > >Drake > >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 16:53:04 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 16:53:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options Message-ID: Hi all, I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and really like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton of experience yet. I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 battery options. I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA, Howie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 17:02:43 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 14:02:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dollars and sence, drop the 24 volt, BPI is a great battery. Once l show my customers all the benefits of a 48 volt upgrade it wins every time. I am not talking about busses, RV's and one night stands l am talking about off grid homes. On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hi all, > I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and > really like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton > of experience yet. I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 > battery options. I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap > out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA, > Howie > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 17:17:47 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 17:17:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I get what you are saying Jerry, but this client ( a retiring teacher in a very rural, low wage school district, sadly) has lived very lightly off-grid (1kW solar, 24v Rolls KS21s original batteries) for 18 years years and has no pressing need to upgrade his VFX3524 inverter. I'd rather find a good 24volt option to compare a straight KS21 replacement to. I know the inverter could crap out at any time, but if it ain't broke... Howie On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:03 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Dollars and sence, drop the 24 volt, BPI is a great battery. Once l show > my customers all the benefits of a 48 volt upgrade it wins every time. I am > not talking about busses, RV's and one night stands l am talking about off > grid homes. > > On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and >> really like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton >> of experience yet. I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 >> battery options. I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap >> out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA, >> Howie >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Thu Sep 26 17:24:13 2019 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland Shackelford) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 11:24:13 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Simpliphi has a 24V option. Mahalo, Roland Shackelford NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #091209-162 President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. | www.renewablenergy.com | On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 11:18 AM Howie Michaelson < Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: > I get what you are saying Jerry, but this client ( a retiring teacher in a > very rural, low wage school district, sadly) has lived very lightly > off-grid (1kW solar, 24v Rolls KS21s original batteries) for 18 years years > and has no pressing need to upgrade his VFX3524 inverter. I'd rather find a > good 24volt option to compare a straight KS21 replacement to. I know the > inverter could crap out at any time, but if it ain't broke... > Howie > > On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:03 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Dollars and sence, drop the 24 volt, BPI is a great battery. Once l show >> my customers all the benefits of a 48 volt upgrade it wins every time. I am >> not talking about busses, RV's and one night stands l am talking about off >> grid homes. >> >> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson < >> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and >>> really like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton >>> of experience yet. I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 >>> battery options. I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap >>> out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA, >>> Howie >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Thu Sep 26 17:28:41 2019 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 14:28:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Simpliphi... They have 24V versions of their batteries. Chad Waits President 520-270-4873 On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hi all, > I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and > really like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton > of experience yet. I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 > battery options. I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap > out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA, > Howie > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 17:41:02 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 17:41:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been aware of Simplifi for some time now, and almost used them in my early Li adoption phase, but moved over to The BlueIon instead for reasons of DOD and cycle life/warranty. I've heard good things about Simplifi as well as Discover AES. Does anyone have any experience with integrating them into a single VFX3524 system? Howie On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:28 PM Chad Waits wrote: > Simpliphi... They have 24V versions of their batteries. > > Chad Waits > President > 520-270-4873 > > > > On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson < > Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and >> really like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton >> of experience yet. I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 >> battery options. I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap >> out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA, >> Howie >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 17:38:08 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 14:38:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Discoverer/Rolls has a 24v one. Feel free to contact me off list and I can share some simpliphi stories jay > On Sep 26, 2019, at 2:28 PM, Chad Waits wrote: > > Simpliphi... They have 24V versions of their batteries. > > Chad Waits > President > 520-270-4873 > > > > On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson > wrote: > Hi all, > I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and really like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton of experience yet. I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 battery options. I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA, > Howie > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 17:55:37 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 14:55:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie Understand but the reality is that inverter is going to fail and then it may be to late to make an upgrade and it will be more costly. You might want to consider Deka Unigyll that can be bussed in 24 volts and changed to 48 volts later. No it's not LI but it's a good solution. Jerry On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 2:18 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: > I get what you are saying Jerry, but this client ( a retiring teacher in a > very rural, low wage school district, sadly) has lived very lightly > off-grid (1kW solar, 24v Rolls KS21s original batteries) for 18 years years > and has no pressing need to upgrade his VFX3524 inverter. I'd rather find a > good 24volt option to compare a straight KS21 replacement to. I know the > inverter could crap out at any time, but if it ain't broke... > Howie > > On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:03 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Dollars and sence, drop the 24 volt, BPI is a great battery. Once l show >> my customers all the benefits of a 48 volt upgrade it wins every time. I am >> not talking about busses, RV's and one night stands l am talking about off >> grid homes. >> >> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson < >> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and >>> really like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton >>> of experience yet. I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 >>> battery options. I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap >>> out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA, >>> Howie >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Sep 26 18:58:52 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:58:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My 2 cents are each client is different and if they have been fine on that one set of batteries then do what is in their interest. An inverter is easily replaced. I might also suggest to stay with the FLA and avoid possible issues with LFP. No matter how good they are in many cases, they still have electronics in them that can fail and cause a new way to lose power offgrid. In my case and quite a few of my offgrid clients I want a complete back-up of the battery if LFP is used. That is what is so nice about having multiple battery systems. One can fail and each has it's own BMS. A spare LFP system can also sit for a year and be fine as long as it gets some exercise. Good Luck Howie! All good on those two Schneider xwp and gateway/insight2 systems? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 26 Sep 2019 17:17:47 -0400, Howie Michaelson wrote: I get what you are saying Jerry, but this client ( a retiring teacher in a very rural, low wage school district, sadly) has lived very lightly off-grid (1kW solar, 24v Rolls KS21s original batteries) for 18 years years and has no pressing need to upgrade his VFX3524 inverter. I'd rather find a good 24volt option to compare a straight KS21 replacement to. I know the inverter could crap out at any time, but if it ain't broke... Howie On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:03 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: Dollars and sence, drop the 24 volt, BPI is a great battery. Once l show my customers all the benefits of a 48 volt upgrade it wins every time. I am not talking about busses, RV's and one night stands l am talking about off grid homes. On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: Hi all, I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and really like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton of experience yet. I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 battery options. I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA, Howie _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [12] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [4] mailto:Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 18:28:38 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:28:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7094FA7F-B3B5-411B-8E60-167933A5A8ED@gmail.com> You might also look at https://www.cdtechno.com/pdf/lit/12_1137.pdf Which is using nano carbon, for 3000 cycles to 50%. Other battery companies also have carbon/lead at up to 4000+ cycles for VRLA, and Rolls has 4500 cycles for flooded, both at 50% DOD. The UnigyII is tried and proven tech, but low cycle life compared to the newer carbon LA chemistries. jay Peltz Power > On Sep 26, 2019, at 2:55 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Howie > Understand but the reality is that inverter is going to fail and then it may be to late to make an upgrade and it will be more costly. You might want to consider Deka Unigyll that can be bussed in 24 volts and changed to 48 volts later. No it's not LI but it's a good solution. > Jerry > > On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 2:18 PM Howie Michaelson > wrote: > I get what you are saying Jerry, but this client ( a retiring teacher in a very rural, low wage school district, sadly) has lived very lightly off-grid (1kW solar, 24v Rolls KS21s original batteries) for 18 years years and has no pressing need to upgrade his VFX3524 inverter. I'd rather find a good 24volt option to compare a straight KS21 replacement to. I know the inverter could crap out at any time, but if it ain't broke... > Howie > > On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:03 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > Dollars and sence, drop the 24 volt, BPI is a great battery. Once l show my customers all the benefits of a 48 volt upgrade it wins every time. I am not talking about busses, RV's and one night stands l am talking about off grid homes. > > On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson > wrote: > Hi all, > I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and really like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton of experience yet. I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 battery options. I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA, > Howie > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Sep 26 20:32:28 2019 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 18:32:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96E47190-6AF9-4A89-87FA-DDA7EA994C2D@sindelarsolar.com> Howie, I’m fully in your court. Just today I replaced 2000 pounds of 18 year old HUPs with 1800 pounds of... HUPs. It’s a full rebuild of a 24v system from the mid-80s, and the scales on a system that vintage couldn’t justify a 48v system. I have asked Blue Planet more than once if they plan to one day develop a 24v Blue Zion package, and the answer has each time been no. So I’d like to hear if there’s a 24V option of equal quality and BMS sophistication. Thanks! Allan Sindelar > On Sep 26, 2019, at 3:17 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > I get what you are saying Jerry, but this client ( a retiring teacher in a very rural, low wage school district, sadly) has lived very lightly off-grid (1kW solar, 24v Rolls KS21s original batteries) for 18 years years and has no pressing need to upgrade his VFX3524 inverter. I'd rather find a good 24volt option to compare a straight KS21 replacement to. I know the inverter could crap out at any time, but if it ain't broke... > Howie > >> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:03 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: >> Dollars and sence, drop the 24 volt, BPI is a great battery. Once l show my customers all the benefits of a 48 volt upgrade it wins every time. I am not talking about busses, RV's and one night stands l am talking about off grid homes. >> >>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and really like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton of experience yet. I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 battery options. I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA, >>> Howie >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Sep 26 21:23:44 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 18:23:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options In-Reply-To: <96E47190-6AF9-4A89-87FA-DDA7EA994C2D@sindelarsolar.com> References: <96E47190-6AF9-4A89-87FA-DDA7EA994C2D@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <926d7bdf7cde55b57a83868683c0b1b8@127.0.0.1> Allen, Discover AES is all I use for Schneider CSW 4024. Direct comms into xanbus. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 26 Sep 2019 18:32:28 -0600, Allan Sindelar wrote: Howie, I'm fully in your court. Just today I replaced 2000 pounds of 18 year old HUPs with 1800 pounds of... HUPs. It's a full rebuild of a 24v system from the mid-80s, and the scales on a system that vintage couldn't justify a 48v system. I have asked Blue Planet more than once if they plan to one day develop a 24v Blue Zion package, and the answer has each time been no. So I'd like to hear if there's a 24V option of equal quality and BMS sophistication. Thanks! Allan Sindelar On Sep 26, 2019, at 3:17 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: I get what you are saying Jerry, but this client ( a retiring teacher in a very rural, low wage school district, sadly) has lived very lightly off-grid (1kW solar, 24v Rolls KS21s original batteries) for 18 years years and has no pressing need to upgrade his VFX3524 inverter. I'd rather find a good 24volt option to compare a straight KS21 replacement to. I know the inverter could crap out at any time, but if it ain't broke... Howie On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:03 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: Dollars and sence, drop the 24 volt, BPI is a great battery. Once l show my customers all the benefits of a 48 volt upgrade it wins every time. I am not talking about busses, RV's and one night stands l am talking about off grid homes. On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: Hi all, I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and really like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton of experience yet. I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 battery options. I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA, Howie _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] List rules border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [18] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com [4] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [5] mailto:Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [19] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Sep 26 22:29:20 2019 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 22:29:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options In-Reply-To: <926d7bdf7cde55b57a83868683c0b1b8@127.0.0.1> References: <96E47190-6AF9-4A89-87FA-DDA7EA994C2D@sindelarsolar.com> <926d7bdf7cde55b57a83868683c0b1b8@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Howie and Allen, I used 5 Simpliphi 24v to replace 24 L16 wet cells. He wanted to keep his old Bergey 850 which I had rebuilt for him a few years ago. He has two VFX3524’s in a Flexware 500 but we are running just one to keep idle loads down. We did have one incident where the batteries would not charge when the temp dropped into the mid 30’s in his unheated but well insulated power room. John Blittersdorf On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 9:23 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Allen, Discover AES is all I use for Schneider CSW 4024. Direct comms into > xanbus. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 26 Sep 2019 18:32:28 -0600, Allan Sindelar < > allan at sindelarsolar.com> wrote: > > > Howie, I'm fully in your court. Just today I replaced 2000 pounds of 18 > year old HUPs with 1800 pounds of... HUPs. It's a full rebuild of a 24v > system from the mid-80s, and the scales on a system that vintage couldn't > justify a 48v system. > I have asked Blue Planet more than once if they plan to one day develop a > 24v Blue Zion package, and the answer has each time been no. So I'd like to > hear if there's a 24V option of equal quality and BMS sophistication. > Thanks! > Allan Sindelar > On Sep 26, 2019, at 3:17 PM, Howie Michaelson > wrote: > > I get what you are saying Jerry, but this client ( a retiring teacher in a > very rural, low wage school district, sadly) has lived very lightly > off-grid (1kW solar, 24v Rolls KS21s original batteries) for 18 years years > and has no pressing need to upgrade his VFX3524 inverter. I'd rather find a > good 24volt option to compare a straight KS21 replacement to. I know the > inverter could crap out at any time, but if it ain't broke... > Howie > > On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:03 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Dollars and sence, drop the 24 volt, BPI is a great battery. Once l show >> my customers all the benefits of a 48 volt upgrade it wins every time. I am >> not talking about busses, RV's and one night stands l am talking about off >> grid homes. >> >> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson < >> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and >>> really like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton >>> of experience yet. I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 >>> battery options. I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap >>> out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA, >>> Howie >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Sep 27 08:14:58 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 06:14:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options In-Reply-To: <7094FA7F-B3B5-411B-8E60-167933A5A8ED@gmail.com> References: <7094FA7F-B3B5-411B-8E60-167933A5A8ED@gmail.com> Message-ID: We've installed quite a few GS Nanocarbon batteries and these are available in 24V. 5000 cycles to 70% DOD (we usually shoot for around 50% DOD). http://www.gsbattery.com/renewable/renewable-energy-slr-series/ No problems thus far. Not cheap but very high quality. On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 3:42 AM jay wrote: > You might also look at > > https://www.cdtechno.com/pdf/lit/12_1137.pdf > > Which is using nano carbon, for 3000 cycles to 50%. > > Other battery companies also have carbon/lead at up to 4000+ cycles for > VRLA, and Rolls has 4500 cycles for flooded, both at 50% DOD. > > The UnigyII is tried and proven tech, but low cycle life compared to the > newer carbon LA chemistries. > > > jay > > Peltz Power > > > > > > > On Sep 26, 2019, at 2:55 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Howie > Understand but the reality is that inverter is going to fail and then it > may be to late to make an upgrade and it will be more costly. You might > want to consider Deka Unigyll that can be bussed in 24 volts and changed to > 48 volts later. No it's not LI but it's a good solution. > Jerry > > On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 2:18 PM Howie Michaelson > wrote: > >> I get what you are saying Jerry, but this client ( a retiring teacher in >> a very rural, low wage school district, sadly) has lived very lightly >> off-grid (1kW solar, 24v Rolls KS21s original batteries) for 18 years years >> and has no pressing need to upgrade his VFX3524 inverter. I'd rather find a >> good 24volt option to compare a straight KS21 replacement to. I know the >> inverter could crap out at any time, but if it ain't broke... >> Howie >> >> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:03 PM Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >>> Dollars and sence, drop the 24 volt, BPI is a great battery. Once l show >>> my customers all the benefits of a 48 volt upgrade it wins every time. I am >>> not talking about busses, RV's and one night stands l am talking about off >>> grid homes. >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson < >>> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and >>>> really like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton >>>> of experience yet. I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 >>>> battery options. I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap >>>> out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA, >>>> Howie >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Sep 27 08:35:49 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 08:35:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options In-Reply-To: References: <7094FA7F-B3B5-411B-8E60-167933A5A8ED@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0DA48249-9880-4ADD-9B94-34030E9F6A81@swnl.net> I believe that the Unigi II series of cells also has a nano carbon line. Contact Doug Laningham (dlaningham at mkbattery.com) cced above On Sep 27, 2019, at 8:14 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > We've installed quite a few GS Nanocarbon batteries and these are available in 24V. 5000 cycles to 70% DOD (we usually shoot for around 50% DOD). http://www.gsbattery.com/renewable/renewable-energy-slr-series/ > > No problems thus far. Not cheap but very high quality. > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 3:42 AM jay > wrote: > You might also look at > > https://www.cdtechno.com/pdf/lit/12_1137.pdf > > Which is using nano carbon, for 3000 cycles to 50%. > > Other battery companies also have carbon/lead at up to 4000+ cycles for VRLA, and Rolls has 4500 cycles for flooded, both at 50% DOD. > > The UnigyII is tried and proven tech, but low cycle life compared to the newer carbon LA chemistries. > > > jay > > Peltz Power > > > > > > >> On Sep 26, 2019, at 2:55 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: >> >> Howie >> Understand but the reality is that inverter is going to fail and then it may be to late to make an upgrade and it will be more costly. You might want to consider Deka Unigyll that can be bussed in 24 volts and changed to 48 volts later. No it's not LI but it's a good solution. >> Jerry >> >> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 2:18 PM Howie Michaelson > wrote: >> I get what you are saying Jerry, but this client ( a retiring teacher in a very rural, low wage school district, sadly) has lived very lightly off-grid (1kW solar, 24v Rolls KS21s original batteries) for 18 years years and has no pressing need to upgrade his VFX3524 inverter. I'd rather find a good 24volt option to compare a straight KS21 replacement to. I know the inverter could crap out at any time, but if it ain't broke... >> Howie >> >> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:03 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: >> Dollars and sence, drop the 24 volt, BPI is a great battery. Once l show my customers all the benefits of a 48 volt upgrade it wins every time. I am not talking about busses, RV's and one night stands l am talking about off grid homes. >> >> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson > wrote: >> Hi all, >> I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and really like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton of experience yet. I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 battery options. I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA, >> Howie >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri Sep 27 10:34:52 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 07:34:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recycling of LI vs Pb Message-ID: <516bc107-9d44-c8b3-0ac1-3e4e7f38351b@berkeleysolar.com> Folks, Has anyone done a good review of the current state of affairs re: recycling Li batteries? I am a bit in the past with a starry-eyed view of Pb with HUP, in particular, believing that Pb batteries have almost a closed cycle product life, ie, we already have infrastructure to recycle something like 95% of the material in Pb batteries. Taking a step back, has our industry become just as jaded by our shiny new technology as every other sector of our economy, focusing on impressive new short term outcomes that are not really embedded within the frame work of a sustainable future? This is why I ask about the recyclablility / sustainability of Li batteries? Some what agnostic here but wondering what the thinking around this is? Thanks, Mark Frye From solarworks at gmail.com Fri Sep 27 10:48:46 2019 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 07:48:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recycling of LI vs Pb In-Reply-To: <516bc107-9d44-c8b3-0ac1-3e4e7f38351b@berkeleysolar.com> References: <516bc107-9d44-c8b3-0ac1-3e4e7f38351b@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Mark. Great question! This is an important consideration. Tesla has a recycling facility at their Nevada plant for their batteries. Curious how other LFP manufacturers recommend end of life handling. Speaking of waste, As you all are installing systems of all varieties, what are you finding with regard to non sustainable packaging in all your "clean" energy materials. I am troubled that after many of our installs we have a pile of plastic and styrofoam as big as the the balance of system installation. Sometimes bigger. It drives me crazy to have this blight on our installation. I am often embarrassed when the customer points out this dichotomy of the installation. Which manufacturers are you happiest with in regards to environmentally friendly packaging materials for inverters, other balance of system, and batteries (probably LFePho4)? Collectively we should have the ability to pressure them to use more sustainable packaging. I have seen some improvements and some half way implemented changes, but a lot more can be done to improve this aspect of our industry. All of us can help....Together we have a big voice. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 7:34 AM Mark Frye wrote: > Folks, > > Has anyone done a good review of the current state of affairs re: > recycling Li batteries? > > I am a bit in the past with a starry-eyed view of Pb with HUP, in > particular, believing that Pb batteries have almost a closed cycle > product life, ie, we already have infrastructure to recycle something > like 95% of the material in Pb batteries. > > Taking a step back, has our industry become just as jaded by our shiny > new technology as every other sector of our economy, focusing on > impressive new short term outcomes that are not really embedded within > the frame work of a sustainable future? > > This is why I ask about the recyclablility / sustainability of Li > batteries? Some what agnostic here but wondering what the thinking > around this is? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Sep 27 10:59:33 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 07:59:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recycling of LI vs Pb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kirpal, Do you know of any information about this recycling at Tesla? Links, etc Thx Jay > On Sep 27, 2019, at 7:49 AM, Kirpal wrote: > >  > Hi Mark. Great question! This is an important consideration. Tesla has a recycling facility at their Nevada plant for their batteries. Curious how other LFP manufacturers recommend end of life handling. > Speaking of waste, As you all are installing systems of all varieties, what are you finding with regard to non sustainable packaging in all your "clean" energy materials. I am troubled that after many of our installs we have a pile of plastic and styrofoam as big as the the balance of system installation. Sometimes bigger. It drives me crazy to have this blight on our installation. I am often embarrassed when the customer points out this dichotomy of the installation. Which manufacturers are you happiest with in regards to environmentally friendly packaging materials for inverters, other balance of system, and batteries (probably LFePho4)? Collectively we should have the ability to pressure them to use more sustainable packaging. > I have seen some improvements and some half way implemented changes, but a lot more can be done to improve this aspect of our industry. All of us can help....Together we have a big voice. > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > > >> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 7:34 AM Mark Frye wrote: >> Folks, >> >> Has anyone done a good review of the current state of affairs re: >> recycling Li batteries? >> >> I am a bit in the past with a starry-eyed view of Pb with HUP, in >> particular, believing that Pb batteries have almost a closed cycle >> product life, ie, we already have infrastructure to recycle something >> like 95% of the material in Pb batteries. >> >> Taking a step back, has our industry become just as jaded by our shiny >> new technology as every other sector of our economy, focusing on >> impressive new short term outcomes that are not really embedded within >> the frame work of a sustainable future? >> >> This is why I ask about the recyclablility / sustainability of Li >> batteries? Some what agnostic here but wondering what the thinking >> around this is? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mark Frye >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Sep 27 11:44:16 2019 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 09:44:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recycling of LI vs Pb In-Reply-To: References: <516bc107-9d44-c8b3-0ac1-3e4e7f38351b@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <15828b0e-af0e-86a7-c198-c92f66505de5@sindelarsolar.com> Agreed that this is important and overlooked. Blue Planet is a case in point. While I'm well satisfied with their product and support, the individual battery packs each come with an absurd amount of styrofoam packaging from Murata, the manufacturer. I was told that Blue Planet was working to find a less wasteful alternative, and that I could pay (substantially) extra to reduce the volume of packaging. To date I haven't heard from them about end-of-life recycling; given their promised long service life, I admit that I have succumbed to the 'by then there will be structures in place to address the need' avoidance. I would appreciate having a Blue Planet manufacturer's representative on this list. Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 9/27/2019 8:48 AM, Kirpal wrote: > Hi Mark.  Great question!  This is an important consideration.  Tesla > has a recycling facility at their Nevada plant for their batteries.  > Curious how other LFP manufacturers recommend end of life handling. > Speaking of waste,  As you all are installing systems of all > varieties, what are you finding with regard to non sustainable > packaging in all your "clean" energy materials.  I am troubled that > after many of our installs we have a pile of plastic and styrofoam as > big as the the balance of system installation.  Sometimes bigger.  It > drives me crazy to have this blight on our installation.  I am often > embarrassed when the customer points out this dichotomy of the > installation.  Which manufacturers are you happiest with in regards to > environmentally friendly packaging materials for inverters, other > balance of system, and batteries  (probably LFePho4)? Collectively we > should have the ability to pressure them to use more sustainable > packaging. > I have seen some improvements and some half way implemented changes, > but a lot more can be done to improve this aspect of our industry.  > All of us can help....Together we have a big voice. > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 7:34 AM Mark Frye > wrote: > > Folks, > > Has anyone done a good review of the current state of affairs re: > recycling Li batteries? > > I am a bit in the past with a starry-eyed view of Pb with HUP, in > particular, believing that Pb batteries have almost a closed cycle > product life, ie, we already have infrastructure to recycle something > like 95% of the material in Pb batteries. > > Taking a step back, has our industry become just as jaded by our > shiny > new technology as every other sector of our economy, focusing on > impressive new short term outcomes that are not really embedded > within > the frame work of a sustainable future? > > This is why I ask about the recyclablility / sustainability of Li > batteries? Some what agnostic here but wondering what the thinking > around this is? > > Thanks, > Mark Frye > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Sep 27 11:51:05 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 09:51:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recycling of LI vs Pb In-Reply-To: <15828b0e-af0e-86a7-c198-c92f66505de5@sindelarsolar.com> References: <516bc107-9d44-c8b3-0ac1-3e4e7f38351b@berkeleysolar.com> <15828b0e-af0e-86a7-c198-c92f66505de5@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I fully agree. Styrofoam seems totally unnecessary now, they do amazing things with cardboard and the "structural" paper (that's my own word). On another note, can all lead acid, even these newer advanced lead acid, batteries be recycled? Thanks On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 9:44 AM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Agreed that this is important and overlooked. Blue Planet is a case in > point. While I'm well satisfied with their product and support, the > individual battery packs each come with an absurd amount of styrofoam > packaging from Murata, the manufacturer. I was told that Blue Planet was > working to find a less wasteful alternative, and that I could pay > (substantially) extra to reduce the volume of packaging. > > To date I haven't heard from them about end-of-life recycling; given their > promised long service life, I admit that I have succumbed to the 'by then > there will be structures in place to address the need' avoidance. > > I would appreciate having a Blue Planet manufacturer's representative on > this list. > > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > On 9/27/2019 8:48 AM, Kirpal wrote: > > Hi Mark. Great question! This is an important consideration. Tesla has > a recycling facility at their Nevada plant for their batteries. Curious > how other LFP manufacturers recommend end of life handling. > Speaking of waste, As you all are installing systems of all varieties, > what are you finding with regard to non sustainable packaging in all your > "clean" energy materials. I am troubled that after many of our installs we > have a pile of plastic and styrofoam as big as the the balance of system > installation. Sometimes bigger. It drives me crazy to have this blight on > our installation. I am often embarrassed when the customer points out this > dichotomy of the installation. Which manufacturers are you happiest with > in regards to environmentally friendly packaging materials for inverters, > other balance of system, and batteries (probably LFePho4)? Collectively > we should have the ability to pressure them to use more sustainable > packaging. > I have seen some improvements and some half way implemented changes, but a > lot more can be done to improve this aspect of our industry. All of us can > help....Together we have a big voice. > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 7:34 AM Mark Frye wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> Has anyone done a good review of the current state of affairs re: >> recycling Li batteries? >> >> I am a bit in the past with a starry-eyed view of Pb with HUP, in >> particular, believing that Pb batteries have almost a closed cycle >> product life, ie, we already have infrastructure to recycle something >> like 95% of the material in Pb batteries. >> >> Taking a step back, has our industry become just as jaded by our shiny >> new technology as every other sector of our economy, focusing on >> impressive new short term outcomes that are not really embedded within >> the frame work of a sustainable future? >> >> This is why I ask about the recyclablility / sustainability of Li >> batteries? Some what agnostic here but wondering what the thinking >> around this is? >> >> Thanks, >> Mark Frye > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Sep 27 12:07:34 2019 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 09:07:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8A899B8C-D56A-40DA-B5E4-03D2B417C0CC@starlightsolar.com> Hi Dave, Howie, Et al, With one brand of Li batteries we sell (EPS), if any part of the BMS system fails, you can turn the battery power on manually and continue to function until the repair is made. All the BMS components are external so it is very serviceable by tech or user. Having a spare part is not very expensive. We have customers operating these systems for 6 years now and I can attest to the success of it. (Other Li battery systems may have similar function) Concerning moving to 48V, at any time the (EPS) Li battery can be reconfigured for 48V provided you have 4 (or 8, 12, etc) battery packs. Converting from 2S2P to 4S1P is simple. (sorry, ranting ahead) You can also add additional capacity at any time. Imagine in 10 years you need more energy storage. With LA, you need to start over with all new. Not so with the EPS system. Just buy more cells and BMS and reconfigure the CPU. The oldest, lower capacity cells are still usable. It not until the minimum V of one cell triggers a shutdown before you have recharged the bank that you need to replace cell(s). Most don’t know that a Li battery can be fully recharged with about 40% less PV solar power. Why? Because they absorb current up to about 98% SoC. Absorb time is about 10 minutes if you want push them to full. No hours in absorb and float, required each day by LA, wasting much of the PV energy that was paid for. Another benefit is many LA battery systems experience deficit charges in the winter because there are not enough sun-hours. We all know that this quickly diminishes the life of a LA battery. When using engine power to charge on those rainy days, the EPS battery system can be fully charged in under one hour from ANY SoC! Pontificating over for now. I hope this is helpful to you Howie. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 26, 2019, at 3:58 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: My 2 cents are each client is different and if they have been fine on that one set of batteries then do what is in their interest. An inverter is easily replaced. I might also suggest to stay with the FLA and avoid possible issues with LFP. No matter how good they are in many cases, they still have electronics in them that can fail and cause a new way to lose power offgrid. In my case and quite a few of my offgrid clients I want a complete back-up of the battery if LFP is used. That is what is so nice about having multiple battery systems. One can fail and each has it's own BMS. A spare LFP system can also sit for a year and be fine as long as it gets some exercise. Good Luck Howie! All good on those two Schneider xwp and gateway/insight2 systems? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 26 Sep 2019 17:17:47 -0400, Howie Michaelson wrote: > I get what you are saying Jerry, but this client ( a retiring teacher in a very rural, low wage school district, sadly) has lived very lightly off-grid (1kW solar, 24v Rolls KS21s original batteries) for 18 years years and has no pressing need to upgrade his VFX3524 inverter. I'd rather find a good 24volt option to compare a straight KS21 replacement to. I know the inverter could crap out at any time, but if it ain't broke... > Howie > > On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:03 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > Dollars and sence, drop the 24 volt, BPI is a great battery. Once l show my customers all the benefits of a 48 volt upgrade it wins every time. I am not talking about busses, RV's and one night stands l am talking about off grid homes. > > On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson > wrote: > Hi all, > I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and really like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton of experience yet. I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 battery options. I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA, > Howie > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Sep 27 12:35:31 2019 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 09:35:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recycling of LI vs Pb In-Reply-To: References: <516bc107-9d44-c8b3-0ac1-3e4e7f38351b@berkeleysolar.com> <15828b0e-af0e-86a7-c198-c92f66505de5@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: When it comes to Recycling Lead it depends on the content of the Lead Battery... To my knowledge, Just to name a few... Rolls Batteries, Trojan, Deka, Crown are generally all 98 to 99% recyclable... In developed countries where there are smelters 99% + of all lead acid batteries are indeed recycled... In countries without a smelter, I'm sad to say there are many dead batteries that never make it to the smelter. On that note all over the world there are landfills, or even garbage collection trucks catching fire because people have disposed of their lithium battery in the trash... I've got a video of what happens when you try to recycle lithium batteries in a lead recycling plant, here's the link... https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8PfY_G1pzpqa2VTVXRZV1VuSlE/view?usp=sharing One of the more common additives to lead base batteries Cadmium, or other heavy metals. this is toxic and contaminates the lead, which makes any lead battery with Cadmium in it hazardous waste. Instead of getting back a core charge you'll have to pay a disposal fee, or worse the recycling center just won't take the battery. Lead Carbon, Lead Antimonoy, and Lead Calcium are generally all fully recyclable as long as they don't have any of the other heavy metals in them. Make sure you check the SDS information before you buy new chemistries... >From the research I've done over the past few years Lithium based batteries, and there are 50+ various chemistries. Recyclabiltiy ranges from 4% to about 15% of the total battery, depending on the manufacturer. LFP, is at this point the least toxic of them all, and unfortunately the least power dense, isn't recyclable, but "supposedly" can be disposed of in a landfill. That is at least what some cell manufactures tell us... I personally find that very hard to believe! Generally with LFP batteries they will recycle the electronics, plastic, or steel case, the actual lithium, I'm guessing is being stockpiled and stored at this point, waiting for a recycling solution. I really hope they aren't being landfilled, or incinerated, but nobody that I've spoken with on the subject really knows where the dead product is really going. Frankly all this is one of the many reasons Rolls has taken so..so. long to ship a Lithium based solution... Here are a couple of cool articles on the subject of Lithium and Lithium production... https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/congo-cobalt-mining-for-lithium-ion-battery/?noredirect=on Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 8:51 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > I fully agree. Styrofoam seems totally unnecessary now, they do amazing > things with cardboard and the "structural" paper (that's my own word). On > another note, can all lead acid, even these newer advanced lead acid, > batteries be recycled? > > Thanks > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 9:44 AM Sindelar Solar > wrote: > >> Agreed that this is important and overlooked. Blue Planet is a case in >> point. While I'm well satisfied with their product and support, the >> individual battery packs each come with an absurd amount of styrofoam >> packaging from Murata, the manufacturer. I was told that Blue Planet was >> working to find a less wasteful alternative, and that I could pay >> (substantially) extra to reduce the volume of packaging. >> >> To date I haven't heard from them about end-of-life recycling; given >> their promised long service life, I admit that I have succumbed to the 'by >> then there will be structures in place to address the need' avoidance. >> >> I would appreciate having a Blue Planet manufacturer's representative on >> this list. >> >> Allan >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> >> >> On 9/27/2019 8:48 AM, Kirpal wrote: >> >> Hi Mark. Great question! This is an important consideration. Tesla has >> a recycling facility at their Nevada plant for their batteries. Curious >> how other LFP manufacturers recommend end of life handling. >> Speaking of waste, As you all are installing systems of all varieties, >> what are you finding with regard to non sustainable packaging in all your >> "clean" energy materials. I am troubled that after many of our installs we >> have a pile of plastic and styrofoam as big as the the balance of system >> installation. Sometimes bigger. It drives me crazy to have this blight on >> our installation. I am often embarrassed when the customer points out this >> dichotomy of the installation. Which manufacturers are you happiest with >> in regards to environmentally friendly packaging materials for inverters, >> other balance of system, and batteries (probably LFePho4)? Collectively >> we should have the ability to pressure them to use more sustainable >> packaging. >> I have seen some improvements and some half way implemented changes, but >> a lot more can be done to improve this aspect of our industry. All of us >> can help....Together we have a big voice. >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon LRT#25 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-299-0402 >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 7:34 AM Mark Frye >> wrote: >> >>> Folks, >>> >>> Has anyone done a good review of the current state of affairs re: >>> recycling Li batteries? >>> >>> I am a bit in the past with a starry-eyed view of Pb with HUP, in >>> particular, believing that Pb batteries have almost a closed cycle >>> product life, ie, we already have infrastructure to recycle something >>> like 95% of the material in Pb batteries. >>> >>> Taking a step back, has our industry become just as jaded by our shiny >>> new technology as every other sector of our economy, focusing on >>> impressive new short term outcomes that are not really embedded within >>> the frame work of a sustainable future? >>> >>> This is why I ask about the recyclablility / sustainability of Li >>> batteries? Some what agnostic here but wondering what the thinking >>> around this is? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Mark Frye >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Fri Sep 27 13:23:28 2019 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 10:23:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems Message-ID: Wrenches, Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid shutdown for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at least in my area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, *cost-effective* products yet. I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot about it. Any input is appreciated. Thanks -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Sep 27 13:37:27 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 11:37:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Loren, We try to stay off the roof for off-grid in Colorado but I'm about to do an 8 panel, 2 string system because of a building code where this cabin is located. I talked with Tigo about it and the parts list is: 8 x's Tigo TS4-A-F for each module 1 x's Tigo RSS The RSS will signal the TS4s to shutdown if power is lost to the RSS. Included in the RSS box is a 120 Vac to 12Vdc out power supply. However, since the RSS is 12 vdc (max of 1A) I'm getting a buck converter to power this so the inverter can be turned off in the winter time when the cabin is unoccupied. The cost isn't too bad. I'll be honest though, I think this is a terrible idea. Any communication box that can shut off charge to the batteries over winter at an unoccupied site is asking for trouble. A communication glitch and the batteries will be dead. This site is about 2 hours from the closest fire department so there is nothing to be gained from adding this equipment other than passing inspection. On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 11:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: > Wrenches, > > Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid shutdown > for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at least in my > area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, *cost-effective* products > yet. > I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot > about it. > > Any input is appreciated. > > Thanks > > -- > > Loren Ortiz > Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid > > loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com > > *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* > > > > > > > *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Sep 27 13:40:05 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 10:40:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Yes l am looking at the Tigo, they work with SMA and outback, Jerry On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: > Wrenches, > > Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid shutdown > for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at least in my > area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, *cost-effective* products > yet. > I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot > about it. > > Any input is appreciated. > > Thanks > > -- > > Loren Ortiz > Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid > > loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com > > *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* > > > > > > > *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Sep 27 13:51:53 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 11:51:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Midnite Solar has their SOB system that attaches inline with the modules. It can do both String level and module level shutdown. We've used it off grid with success.  The biggest issue is it is not compatible with most charge controllers, except Magnum's PT 100 for some reason.  We used the PT 100, used one pole of a 3 pole DC disconnect for the "ON" signal, and all worked fine.  No nuisance tripping or other issues for over a year.   We did not bother with controlled breakers, etc at the charge controller, and certainly not the inverter. As is clear in Figure 690.1(b) Note (2) /The PV system disconnect... separates the PV system from all other systems. /This means that we label the external DC disconnect as /PV Disconnect, /and the voltage requirements of 690.12 only apply up to that PV disconnect.  Articles 445 Generators, 480 Batteries, 705 Interconnected Systems, 706 Storage Systems, and 710 Stand Alone Systems, all apply after the PV disconnect. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/27/19 11:23 AM, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: > Wrenches, > > Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid > shutdown for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at > least in my area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, > *cost-effective* products yet. > I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot > about it. > > Any input is appreciated. > > Thanks > > -- > __ > Loren Ortiz > Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid > > loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com > > *Main:530-274-3671 ext: 311 ****Fax:530-274-7518* > > ** > > > > > *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Fri Sep 27 13:53:17 2019 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 10:53:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Mac. Yeah, Tigo was my first choice but then a search turned up this product, the FireRaptor . Funny name and something I haven't heard a lot about but it does allow for a 2:1 ratio so could help save on costs. But I'm wary to be a guinea pig for unproven tech. These new rules, while having good intentions, are seriously impacting off grid designs where most sites, like you mentioned, are *way* far away from the nearest fire department. So, kind of pointless in my opinion. But I don't make the rules... On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 10:37 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Loren, > > We try to stay off the roof for off-grid in Colorado but I'm about to do > an 8 panel, 2 string system because of a building code where this cabin is > located. > I talked with Tigo about it and the parts list is: > > 8 x's Tigo TS4-A-F for each module > 1 x's Tigo RSS > > The RSS will signal the TS4s to shutdown if power is lost to the RSS. > Included in the RSS box is a 120 Vac to 12Vdc out power supply. However, > since the RSS is 12 vdc (max of 1A) I'm getting a buck converter to power > this so the inverter can be turned off in the winter time when the cabin is > unoccupied. The cost isn't too bad. > > I'll be honest though, I think this is a terrible idea. Any communication > box that can shut off charge to the batteries over winter at an unoccupied > site is asking for trouble. A communication glitch and the batteries will > be dead. This site is about 2 hours from the closest fire department so > there is nothing to be gained from adding this equipment other than passing > inspection. > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 11:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid shutdown >> for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at least in my >> area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, *cost-effective* >> products yet. >> I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot >> about it. >> >> Any input is appreciated. >> >> Thanks >> >> -- >> >> Loren Ortiz >> Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid >> >> loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com >> >> *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Fri Sep 27 14:16:24 2019 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 18:16:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71249da5e02f47a8b526740b2516e2f2@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello all. Here is some information regarding Module Level Shutdown and OutBack http://www.outbackpower.com/products-mobile/safety-compliance/item/imo-fireraptor Tech info: http://www.outbackpower.com/resources/documents/product-documentation/item/imo-fireraptor-technical-documentation * UL listed with the FM100 and SkyBox * Available through all Outback distributors * Manual Panel Shutdown to 0V Operated from Ground Level * Automatic Panel Shutdown to 0V at >85°C (185°F) Temperature * Automatic Panel Shutdown to 0V on External Power Loss * Hardwire or Mobile Communication Alarm Signalling * Compliant with NEC 2014 & NEC 2017 * Suitable for New Installations or Retro-Fit From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Lorenzo Ortiz Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 10:23 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ Wrenches, Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid shutdown for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at least in my area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, cost-effective products yet. I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot about it. Any input is appreciated. Thanks -- [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1SNW41qVSpfo_yQlKW9a9netwEMmohllF&revid=0B6l5VcsZgAv3TlU5UTJwVXFHMXlpR05jOE9ndlhoK3BwejA0PQ] Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 Fax: 530-274-7518 [https://californiasolarco.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Email-Sig-Logo3.png] Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Sep 27 14:57:06 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 11:57:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options Message-ID: <712df07ebeb6b63f2c7a7908dbb1c093@127.0.0.1> Discover AES also gives redundancy if you use 2 or more of their 6.5KWH batteries. The reason I use them is their is no configuration. Plug in xanbus and AES bus and some battery cables and you are done. See screenshot. They work with Outback but you need to program setpoints and wire an external Battery monitor if you want Soc. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Discover & Xanbus.PNG Type: image/png Size: 132143 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Sep 27 15:54:18 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 15:54:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems Message-ID: The difference in topologies is that when the Tigo devices are used with an inverter driving the control is that it is relying on the Sunspec Alliance standard to be implemented correctly between the inverter manufacturer and Tigo.When using the Tigo devices at the modules and the Togo RSS box for control, the inverter is not involved and it removes a layer of possible incompatibility and finger pointing if things go sideways.We have been told of such hiccups by our distributor, and they are pushing the IMO Fire raptor solution. Unfortunately they sell the SMA branded Tigo devices so have no feedback on their use with the RSS controller, only with the SMA inverter control of the rooftop devices.I have attended a couple of Tigo trainings, and the all Togo option looks straightforward. We have quoted their use a couple of times now, but have not yet done an install.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Jerry ShaferDate: Fri, Sep 27, 2019 1:40 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systemsWrenchesYes l am looking at the Tigo, they work with SMA and outback, JerryOn Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz wrote:Wrenches,Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid shutdown for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at least in my area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, cost-effective products yet. I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot about it.Any input is appreciated.Thanks--   Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Gridloren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.comMain: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 Fax: 530-274-7518      Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Sep 27 19:00:19 2019 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 19:00:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For AC coupled battery based systems it’s a pretty easy solution. Any run of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work. Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I haven’t found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:59 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > For AC coupled battery based systems it’s a pretty easy solution. Any run > of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work. > Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it > gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I > haven’t found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a > great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:21 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > >> The difference in topologies is that when the Tigo devices are used with >> an inverter driving the control is that it is relying on the Sunspec >> Alliance standard to be implemented correctly between the inverter >> manufacturer and Tigo. >> When using the Tigo devices at the modules and the Togo RSS box for >> control, the inverter is not involved and it removes a layer of possible >> incompatibility and finger pointing if things go sideways. >> >> We have been told of such hiccups by our distributor, and they are >> pushing the IMO Fire raptor solution. Unfortunately they sell the SMA >> branded Tigo devices so have no feedback on their use with the RSS >> controller, only with the SMA inverter control of the rooftop devices. >> I have attended a couple of Tigo trainings, and the all Togo option looks >> straightforward. We have quoted their use a couple of times now, but have >> not yet done an install. >> >> -Glenn >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> *From: *Jerry Shafer >> *Date: *Fri, Sep 27, 2019 1:40 PM >> *To: *RE-wrenches; >> *Cc: * >> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems >> >> Wrenches >> Yes l am looking at the Tigo, they work with SMA and outback, >> Jerry >> >> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz >> wrote: >> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid >>> shutdown for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at >>> least in my area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, >>> *cost-effective* products yet. >>> I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot >>> about it. >>> >>> Any input is appreciated. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Loren Ortiz >>> Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid >>> >>> loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com >>> >>> *Main: 530-274-3671 <530-274-3671> ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518 >>> <530-274-7518>* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> < /div> >>> >> >>> >>> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > > *Chris Sparadeo* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 042919-015652* > > Catamount Solar, LLC > > 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 > > C_(802) 369-4458 > > O_(802) 728-3600 > > www.CatamountSolar.com > > > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stc.jason at gmail.com Fri Sep 27 21:56:56 2019 From: stc.jason at gmail.com (Jason Fisher (STC)) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2019 01:56:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Just a reminder to everyone struggling with this issue that only building-attached circuits energized by PV sources require RSD. So ground mounts generally don’t, or at least would only require a disconnect at the building if sending dc circuits into buildings. Energy Storage is covered under article 706 in 2017 and does not require any shutdown, just sensible disconnection requirements. Jason Fisher ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Chris Sparadeo Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 5:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems For AC coupled battery based systems it’s a pretty easy solution. Any run of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work. Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I haven’t found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:59 PM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: For AC coupled battery based systems it’s a pretty easy solution. Any run of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work. Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I haven’t found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:21 PM Glenn Burt > wrote: The difference in topologies is that when the Tigo devices are used with an inverter driving the control is that it is relying on the Sunspec Alliance standard to be implemented correctly between the inverter manufacturer and Tigo. When using the Tigo devices at the modules and the Togo RSS box for control, the inverter is not involved and it removes a layer of possible incompatibility and finger pointing if things go sideways. We have been told of such hiccups by our distributor, and they are pushing the IMO Fire raptor solution. Unfortunately they sell the SMA branded Tigo devices so have no feedback on their use with the RSS controller, only with the SMA inverter control of the rooftop devices. I have attended a couple of Tigo trainings, and the all Togo option looks straightforward. We have quoted their use a couple of times now, but have not yet done an install. -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ From: Jerry Shafer Date: Fri, Sep 27, 2019 1:40 PM To: RE-wrenches; Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems Wrenches Yes l am looking at the Tigo, they work with SMA and outback, Jerry On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz > wrote: Wrenches, Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid shutdown for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at least in my area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, cost-effective products yet. I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot about it. Any input is appreciated. Thanks -- [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1SNW41qVSpfo_yQlKW9a9netwEMmohllF&revid=0B6l5VcsZgAv3TlU5UTJwVXFHMXlpR05jOE9ndlhoK3BwejA0PQ] Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 Fax: 530-274-7518 < /div> [https://californiasolarco.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Email-Sig-Logo3.png] Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Sparadeo NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 042919-015652 Catamount Solar, LLC 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 C_(802) 369-4458 O_(802) 728-3600 www.CatamountSolar.com [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1mCW-PHFLHFPeXrjcdIFP9qCjgiGEUCvd&revid=0BygFB0YkoiNNR2JhWEE1cEhwUnhQNW5obHV2MjNibktmWFUwPQ] -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Fri Sep 27 23:14:14 2019 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 20:14:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Recycling of LI vs Pb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay....There are numerous articles. Here are a few....I havn't researched much more than these articles...But it looks like interesting...Not really sure if they are up to full speed yet.... https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1122631_tesla-launches-battery-recycling-at-nevada-gigafactory https://electrek.co/2019/04/16/tesla-battery-recycling-system/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/07/yes-tesla-recycles-all-of-its-spent-batteries-wants-to-do-more-in-the-future/ This one I found the most interesting: https://medium.com/tradr/teslas-approach-to-recycling-is-the-way-of-the-future-for-sustainable-production-5af99b62aa0e Cheers Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 1:27 PM Jay wrote: > Hi Kirpal, > > Do you know of any information about this recycling at Tesla? > Links, etc > > Thx > Jay > > On Sep 27, 2019, at 7:49 AM, Kirpal wrote: > >  > Hi Mark. Great question! This is an important consideration. Tesla has > a recycling facility at their Nevada plant for their batteries. Curious > how other LFP manufacturers recommend end of life handling. > Speaking of waste, As you all are installing systems of all varieties, > what are you finding with regard to non sustainable packaging in all your > "clean" energy materials. I am troubled that after many of our installs we > have a pile of plastic and styrofoam as big as the the balance of system > installation. Sometimes bigger. It drives me crazy to have this blight on > our installation. I am often embarrassed when the customer points out this > dichotomy of the installation. Which manufacturers are you happiest with > in regards to environmentally friendly packaging materials for inverters, > other balance of system, and batteries (probably LFePho4)? Collectively > we should have the ability to pressure them to use more sustainable > packaging. > I have seen some improvements and some half way implemented changes, but a > lot more can be done to improve this aspect of our industry. All of us can > help....Together we have a big voice. > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > > > On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 7:34 AM Mark Frye wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> Has anyone done a good review of the current state of affairs re: >> recycling Li batteries? >> >> I am a bit in the past with a starry-eyed view of Pb with HUP, in >> particular, believing that Pb batteries have almost a closed cycle >> product life, ie, we already have infrastructure to recycle something >> like 95% of the material in Pb batteries. >> >> Taking a step back, has our industry become just as jaded by our shiny >> new technology as every other sector of our economy, focusing on >> impressive new short term outcomes that are not really embedded within >> the frame work of a sustainable future? >> >> This is why I ask about the recyclablility / sustainability of Li >> batteries? Some what agnostic here but wondering what the thinking >> around this is? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mark Frye >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Sep 28 11:58:48 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2019 08:58:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Just another reminder that one should most always do what the AHJ or inspector wants. When they are done you can do what is sensible and very often safer. We have a new inspector here who is about 24 years old who is really good. Over the years it has been interesting/amusing to watch the learning curve. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 28 Sep 2019 01:56:56 +0000, "Jason Fisher (STC)" wrote: Just a reminder to everyone struggling with this issue that only building-attached circuits energized by PV sources require RSD. So ground mounts generally don't, or at least would only require a disconnect at the building if sending dc circuits into buildings. Energy Storage is covered under article 706 in 2017 and does not require any shutdown, just sensible disconnection requirements. Jason Fisher ------------------------- FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of Chris Sparadeo SENT: Friday, September 27, 2019 5:00 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems For AC coupled battery based systems it's a pretty easy solution. Any run of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work. Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I haven't found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:59 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: For AC coupled battery based systems it's a pretty easy solution. Any run of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work. Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I haven't found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution. On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:21 PM Glenn Burt wrote: The difference in topologies is that when the Tigo devices are used with an inverter driving the control is that it is relying on the Sunspec Alliance standard to be implemented correctly between the inverter manufacturer and Tigo. When using the Tigo devices at the modules and the Togo RSS box for control, the inverter is not involved and it removes a layer of possible incompatibility and finger pointing if things go sideways. We have been told of such hiccups by our distributor, and they are pushing the IMO Fire raptor solution. Unfortunately they sell the SMA branded Tigo devices so have no feedback on their use with the RSS controller, only with the SMA inverter control of the rooftop devices. I have attended a couple of Tigo trainings, and the all Togo option looks straightforward. We have quoted their use a couple of times now, but have not yet done an install. -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ FROM: Jerry Shafer DATE: Fri, Sep 27, 2019 1:40 PM TO: RE-wrenches; CC: SUBJECT:Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems Wrenches Yes l am looking at the Tigo, they work with SMA and outback, Jerry On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: Wrenches, Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid shutdown for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at least in my area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, COST-EFFECTIVE products yet. I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot about it. Any input is appreciated. Thanks -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com [6] californiasolarco.com [7] MAIN: EXT: 311 FAX: < /div> SHOWROOM LOCATED AT: 149 E MAIN ST. GRASS VALLEY, CA 95945 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [16] List rules ">_Chris Sparadeo_ _NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLATION PROFESSIONAL # 042919-015652_ Catamount Solar, LLC 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 C_(802) 369-4458 O_(802) 728-3600 www.CatamountSolar.com [19] -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:c2 at catamountsolar.com [4] mailto:Glenn.burt at glbcc.com [5] mailto:lorenzo at cal-solar.com [6] mailto:loren at cal-solar.com [7] http://californiasolarco.com [8] https://californiasolarco.com/referral_form/ [9] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [12] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [17] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [19] http://www.catamountsolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Sep 28 15:42:35 2019 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2019 14:42:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fire raptor will provide rapid shutdown at module level. Midnight also has the SOB. FireRaptor requires a control cable two wire, which can be powered by a 24 volt AC or a DC source. The Midnight SOB uses PLC from an AC or DC source. Outback uses the FireRaptor the two wire cable daisy chains and the presence of voltage on the cable closes the series circuit. I asked after their webinar if a single raptor could open several modules in series, I was told yes but I do not belive it. Ibelieve it is a single module device. I was told the two wire cable is isloated for up to 600 Volts, (maybe they said 1,000 V.) such that I could use one raptor conrtroller on two strings. Code requires shutdown at module level for arc fault also, 690.11, for all unintended arcs this will mandate module level for parallel arcs, To be code compliant the charge controller for DC coupled systems, must have arc fault and a way to connect to the Fire Raptor string Perhaps for smaller off grid, go to low voltage where arc fault is not required. or use a classic CC which has Arc Fault, but I do not know how to get a shutdown signal from the classic. On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 12:24 PM Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: > Wrenches, > > Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid shutdown > for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at least in my > area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, *cost-effective* products > yet. > I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot > about it. > > Any input is appreciated. > > Thanks > > -- > > Loren Ortiz > Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid > > loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com > > *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* > > > > > > > *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Sep 28 13:33:38 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2019 10:33:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6331FC1C-08D5-4CE0-8E80-41C1E2088CA9@gmail.com> HI Jason Does that mean that 690.12 B 1 would apply with the following. A ground mounted or external array to a living structure and if the CC was less than 1 meter from entry into the building You wouldn’t need rapid shut down? jay peltz power > On Sep 27, 2019, at 6:56 PM, Jason Fisher (STC) wrote: > > Just a reminder to everyone struggling with this issue that only building-attached circuits energized by PV sources require RSD. So ground mounts generally don’t, or at least would only require a disconnect at the building if sending dc circuits into buildings. > > Energy Storage is covered under article 706 in 2017 and does not require any shutdown, just sensible disconnection requirements. > > Jason Fisher > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Mon Sep 30 09:44:17 2019 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 09:44:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bergey XL.1 HummmBuzzz Message-ID: Friends, I've exhausted the Bergey tech support expertise on this issue and I'm hoping someone on the list may have a solution to share. I have a customer with an older XL.1 on a tilt-up tower. The machine has been in place since 2007. I've done some work to it over the years including blades, yaw bearings, painting, slip rings, brushes, rectifier. The machine/property has a new owner who finds the noise of the machine to be objectionable. The original owner also noted the noise, but was not as dogged about resolving it. The noise is best described as a "hummbuzzz" and it happens when the machine rpms have slackened and then begin to accelerate again. The transition causes some kind of electrical harmonic that is not noticeable once the rpms increase. So, if the machine furls out of a high wind and the rpms drop then the noise begins as soon as it un-furls and the blades begin to accelerate. The noise disappears as it comes up to speed. This noise does not happen if the machine is allowed to run unloaded (with the breaker in the off position). Anyway, I'd sure appreciate any thoughts. Many thanks in advance! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Mon Sep 30 09:55:55 2019 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 09:55:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bergey XL.1 HummmBuzzz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5eed9e0b-2d2b-b4ed-ff3a-712cf5f647c7@four-winds-energy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Sep 30 13:40:53 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 11:40:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: <6331FC1C-08D5-4CE0-8E80-41C1E2088CA9@gmail.com> References: <6331FC1C-08D5-4CE0-8E80-41C1E2088CA9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <99a725cc-d7ed-ee79-aca1-7ddb0a95c3ea@solarray.com> The PV system (and 690.12) stop at the PV Disconnect. (see figure 690.1(b), Note (2)).  Charge Controllers are part of the Energy Storage system (706) now.  We presented this in our plan sets, and we drew clear lines on the wiring diagram showing which articles applied to which parts of the system.  The AHJs have not challenged us on this. However, they pulled a bunch of other stuff out, for instance that 705 still applies to off grid.... I still have not seen a good presentation anywhere on applying NEC 2017 to off grid, outside of the RE Wrenches list.  Everyone is still figuring this all out for off grid after all the changes in 2017.  Can't wait to see what 2020 looks like.... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/28/19 11:33 AM, jay wrote: > HI Jason > > Does that mean that 690.12 B 1 would apply with the following. > > A ground mounted or external array to a living structure > and > if the CC was less than 1 meter from entry into the building > > You wouldn’t need rapid shut down? > > jay > peltz power > > >> On Sep 27, 2019, at 6:56 PM, Jason Fisher (STC) > > wrote: >> >> Just a reminder to everyone struggling with this issue that only >> building-attached circuits energized by PV sources require RSD. So >> ground mounts generally don’t, or at least would only require a >> disconnect at the building if sending dc circuits into buildings. >> >> Energy Storage is covered under article 706 in 2017 and does not >> require any shutdown, just sensible disconnection requirements. >> >> Jason Fisher >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stc.jason at gmail.com Mon Sep 30 18:14:10 2019 From: stc.jason at gmail.com (Jason Fisher (STC)) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 22:14:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: <99a725cc-d7ed-ee79-aca1-7ddb0a95c3ea@solarray.com> References: <6331FC1C-08D5-4CE0-8E80-41C1E2088CA9@gmail.com>, <99a725cc-d7ed-ee79-aca1-7ddb0a95c3ea@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Ray makes the right distinction between the PV system and other systems that I think applies to your example. This was the big change in 2017 as we pulled all the non-PV stuff out of 690 and created 706, 710, etc. The PV system disconnect is what you identify it to be though. Article 690 doesn’t tell you what disconnect is the PV system disconnect, just that one must be identified per system. Also there is no limit on the number of disconnects in a PV system, so you could have one local disconnect located at an array for servicing etc but then add another one someplace else and identify that one as the PV system disconnect if you wanted. The system disconnect is the final one that separates the PV system from other system conductors. Other disconnects found in a system are typically equipment disconnects for servicing etc. 690.12 Rapid Shutdown only applies to circuits energized by PV sources, not circuits energized by other sources such as a utility, a battery, or a generator. The justification for RS was to protect firefighters working in or on buildings performing emergency operations. So if a PV array is attached to the building (not just on a roof, but for example an awning) then 690.12 certainly applies. For a ground mounted system the answer is “it depends”. If the circuits energized by the PV array do not enter the building (i.e. a PV system ending at an outdoor battery shed) then it doesn’t. If a dc circuit comes from the PV array and enters a home then you need a means to bring that circuit below 30V before attaching to, or entering, the home. That might be a readily accessible disconnect (marked as an RS initiation device) not mounted on the home or some type of remote relay (listed to 1741 RS) operated by an RS initiation switch on the home. The NEC 2020 language regarding 690.12 hasn’t changed that much. The most significant change is to further clarify what conductors must be controlled in 690.12(A). That new language and informational note may help some struggling with this issue though. The other changes mainly improve the application of the new draft UL3741 standard to the inside array requirements. Note that in both 2017 and 2020 there should be no inside the array (690.12(B)(2)) requirements for any ground mounted system not attached to a building. I hope no other people out there are suggesting there are. That was never identified as a requirement for 690.12. If an inspector in your area wants that I would personally have a prolonged discussion about that. I don’t think that position is supported by the Code language, or public record on the debates around this issue. It’s not a who’s “right” or “wrong” debate. It is simply how to apply the Code to the installation. Also a heads up to look at new 2020 language in 480, 706, 692, 694, and even 445, requiring the disconnection of all onsite sources from buildings. For 1&2 family dwelling these disconnects must be outside. This parallels the new requirement for outdoor disconnects for utility services outside of these buildings. These new requirements close the loops that can concern in others about what happens to other circuits when I initiate RS for a PV array. None of these requirements are rapid shutdown though. It is all about de-energizing feeders and branch circuits in buildings. I think these requirements will often apply to off-grid systems. They are pretty straightforward though since the requirements are much higher level and not as prescriptive as 690.12. I realize the 2017 (or probably 2020) language isn’t 100% clear. It never seems to be unfortunately. While I won’t say the language is “correct”, the way I describe these issues above is in line with the public inputs/comments/debates during the Code panel’s (CMP-4) development process, starting in 2014 and continuing to 2020. If anyone has specific ideas for 2023 improvements please let me know. Hope some of that helps you all. Jason Fisher stc.jason at gmail.com ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray Sent: Monday, September 30, 2019 1:40 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems The PV system (and 690.12) stop at the PV Disconnect. (see figure 690.1(b), Note (2)). Charge Controllers are part of the Energy Storage system (706) now. We presented this in our plan sets, and we drew clear lines on the wiring diagram showing which articles applied to which parts of the system. The AHJs have not challenged us on this. However, they pulled a bunch of other stuff out, for instance that 705 still applies to off grid.... I still have not seen a good presentation anywhere on applying NEC 2017 to off grid, outside of the RE Wrenches list. Everyone is still figuring this all out for off grid after all the changes in 2017. Can't wait to see what 2020 looks like.... Ray WaltersRemote Solar303 505-8760 On 9/28/19 11:33 AM, jay wrote: HI Jason Does that mean that 690.12 B 1 would apply with the following. A ground mounted or external array to a living structure and if the CC was less than 1 meter from entry into the building You wouldn’t need rapid shut down? jay peltz power On Sep 27, 2019, at 6:56 PM, Jason Fisher (STC) > wrote: Just a reminder to everyone struggling with this issue that only building-attached circuits energized by PV sources require RSD. So ground mounts generally don’t, or at least would only require a disconnect at the building if sending dc circuits into buildings. Energy Storage is covered under article 706 in 2017 and does not require any shutdown, just sensible disconnection requirements. Jason Fisher ________________________________ _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Mon Sep 30 10:26:13 2019 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 10:26:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power OB mate stand-alone Message-ID: <440B0340-8483-4FD7-83C4-C595BB877364@icloud.com> Hello, i have several older Mates i want to energize to read firmware versions. Is there a way to do this without access to a hub / inverter / controller / etc.? There must be a pin assignment avail for the cat5 patch cord. Thanks. Kirk Herander From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Sep 30 18:49:32 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 15:49:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: References: <6331FC1C-08D5-4CE0-8E80-41C1E2088CA9@gmail.com>, <99a725cc-d7ed-ee79-aca1-7ddb0a95c3ea@solarray.com> Message-ID: <57ee758d72e3c9cf64628b905417ad74@127.0.0.1> Thanks Jason, I have one question on the sentence, ". If a dc circuit comes from the PV array and enters a home then you need a means to bring that circuit below 30V before attaching to, or entering, the home. That might be a readily accessible disconnect (marked as an RS initiation device) not mounted on the home or some type of remote relay (listed to 1741 RS) operated by an RS initiation switch on the home." An example of what I have done many times. There is a 600v square D disco mounted on the garage exterior wall from a ground mounted array. The garage is attached to the home. Is thIs meeting the intent here please? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 22:14:10 +0000, "Jason Fisher (STC)" wrote: Hi Jay, Ray makes the right distinction between the PV system and other systems that I think applies to your example. This was the big change in 2017 as we pulled all the non-PV stuff out of 690 and created 706, 710, etc. The PV system disconnect is what you identify it to be though. Article 690 doesn't tell you what disconnect is the PV system disconnect, just that one must be identified per system. Also there is no limit on the number of disconnects in a PV system, so you could have one local disconnect located at an array for servicing etc but then add another one someplace else and identify that one as the PV system disconnect if you wanted. The system disconnect is the final one that separates the PV system from other system conductors. Other disconnects found in a system are typically equipment disconnects for servicing etc. 690.12 Rapid Shutdown only applies to circuits energized by PV sources, not circuits energized by other sources such as a utility, a battery, or a generator. The justification for RS was to protect firefighters working in or on buildings performing emergency operations. So if a PV array is attached to the building (not just on a roof, but for example an awning) then 690.12 certainly applies. For a ground mounted system the answer is "it depends". If the circuits energized by the PV array do not enter the building (i.e. a PV system ending at an outdoor battery shed) then it doesn't. If a dc circuit comes from the PV array and enters a home then you need a means to bring that circuit below 30V before attaching to, or entering, the home. That might be a readily accessible disconnect (marked as an RS initiation device) not mounted on the home or some type of remote relay (listed to 1741 RS) operated by an RS initiation switch on the home. The NEC 2020 language regarding 690.12 hasn't changed that much. The most significant change is to further clarify what conductors must be controlled in 690.12(A). That new language and informational note may help some struggling with this issue though. The other changes mainly improve the application of the new draft UL3741 standard to the inside array requirements. Note that in both 2017 and 2020 there should be no inside the array (690.12(B)(2)) requirements for any ground mounted system not attached to a building. I hope no other people out there are suggesting there are. That was never identified as a requirement for 690.12. If an inspector in your area wants that I would personally have a prolonged discussion about that. I don't think that position is supported by the Code language, or public record on the debates around this issue. It's not a who's "right" or "wrong" debate. It is simply how to apply the Code to the installation. Also a heads up to look at new 2020 language in 480, 706, 692, 694, and even 445, requiring the disconnection of all onsite sources from buildings. For 1">I realize the 2017 (or probably 2020) language isn't 100% clear. It never seems to be unfortunately. While I won't say the language is "correct", the way I describe these issues above is in line with the public inputs/comments/debates during the Code panel's (CMP-4) development process, starting in 2014 and continuing to 2020. If anyone has specific ideas for 2023 improvements please let me know. Hope some of that helps you all. Jason Fisher stc.jason at gmail.com ------------------------- FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray SENT: Monday, September 30, 2019 1:40 PM TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems The PV system (and 690.12) stop at the PV Disconnect. (see figure 690.1(b), Note (2)). Charge Controllers are part of the Energy Storage system (706) now. We presented this in our plan sets, and we drew clear lines on the wiring diagram showing which articles applied to which parts of the system. The AHJs have not challenged us on this. However, they pulled a bunch of other stuff out, for instance that 705 still applies to off grid.... I still have not seen a good presentation anywhere on applying NEC 2017 to off grid, outside of the RE Wrenches list. Everyone is still figuring this all out for off grid after all the changes in 2017. Can't wait to see what 2020 looks like.... Ray WaltersRemote Solar303 505-8760 On 9/28/19 11:33 AM, jay wrote: HI Jason Does that mean that 690.12 B 1 would apply with the following. A ground mounted or external array to a living structure and if the CC was less than 1 meter from entry into the building You wouldn't need rapid shut down? jay peltz power On Sep 27, 2019, at 6:56 PM, Jason Fisher (STC) wrote: Just a reminder to everyone struggling with this issue that only building-attached circuits energized by PV sources require RSD. So ground mounts generally don't, or at least would only require a disconnect at the building if sending dc circuits into buildings. Energy Storage is covered under article 706 in 2017 and does not require any shutdown, just sensible disconnection requirements. Jason Fisher ------------------------- _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4]Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5]List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6]List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7]Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:stc.jason at gmail.com [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Sep 30 19:03:42 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 16:03:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: <99a725cc-d7ed-ee79-aca1-7ddb0a95c3ea@solarray.com> References: <6331FC1C-08D5-4CE0-8E80-41C1E2088CA9@gmail.com> <99a725cc-d7ed-ee79-aca1-7ddb0a95c3ea@solarray.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Here is one l have right now, it's off grid, there is a carport roof over a trailer, there is no contact between the two untill you get to the deck surround of the trailer. Question, does the carport roof qualify for RSD because there is a habitable structure underneath even though that it has it's own roof or since the trailer is on wheels it does not, even though it may never leave the location without removing the elevated deck and yes it will be used in this location. Thoughts, the building department does not know either. On Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:40 AM Ray wrote: > The PV system (and 690.12) stop at the PV Disconnect. (see figure > 690.1(b), Note (2)). Charge Controllers are part of the Energy Storage > system (706) now. We presented this in our plan sets, and we drew clear > lines on the wiring diagram showing which articles applied to which parts > of the system. The AHJs have not challenged us on this. However, they > pulled a bunch of other stuff out, for instance that 705 still applies to > off grid.... > > I still have not seen a good presentation anywhere on applying NEC 2017 to > off grid, outside of the RE Wrenches list. Everyone is still figuring this > all out for off grid after all the changes in 2017. Can't wait to see what > 2020 looks like.... > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/28/19 11:33 AM, jay wrote: > > HI Jason > > Does that mean that 690.12 B 1 would apply with the following. > > A ground mounted or external array to a living structure > and > if the CC was less than 1 meter from entry into the building > > You wouldn’t need rapid shut down? > > jay > peltz power > > > On Sep 27, 2019, at 6:56 PM, Jason Fisher (STC) > wrote: > > Just a reminder to everyone struggling with this issue that only > building-attached circuits energized by PV sources require RSD. So ground > mounts generally don’t, or at least would only require a disconnect at the > building if sending dc circuits into buildings. > > Energy Storage is covered under article 706 in 2017 and does not require > any shutdown, just sensible disconnection requirements. > > Jason Fisher > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20190929_112509.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3880525 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Sep 30 22:11:34 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 19:11:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: <57ee758d72e3c9cf64628b905417ad74@127.0.0.1> References: <6331FC1C-08D5-4CE0-8E80-41C1E2088CA9@gmail.com>, <99a725cc-d7ed-ee79-aca1-7ddb0a95c3ea@solarray.com> <57ee758d72e3c9cf64628b905417ad74@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <6b578a9da55e648a55736173966a97ff@127.0.0.1> On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 15:49:32 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Thanks Jason, I have one question on the sentence, ". If a dc circuit comes from the PV array and enters a home then you need a means to bring that circuit below 30V before attaching to, or entering, the home. That might be a readily accessible disconnect (marked as an RS initiation device) not mounted on the home or some type of remote relay (listed to 1741 RS) operated by an RS initiation switch on the home." An example of what I have done many times. There is a 600v square D disco mounted on the garage exterior wall from a ground mounted array. The garage is attached to the home. Is thIs meeting the intent here please? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 22:14:10 +0000, "Jason Fisher (STC)" wrote: Hi Jay, Ray makes the right distinction between the PV system and other systems that I think applies to your example. This was the big change in 2017 as we pulled all the non-PV stuff out of 690 and created 706, 710, etc. The PV system disconnect is what you identify it to be though. Article 690 doesn't tell you what disconnect is the PV system disconnect, just that one must be identified per system. Also there is no limit on the number of disconnects in a PV system, so you could have one local disconnect located at an array for servicing etc but then add another one someplace else and identify that one as the PV system disconnect if you wanted. The system disconnect is the final one that separates the PV system from other system conductors. Other disconnects found in a system are typically equipment disconnects for servicing etc. 690.12 Rapid Shutdown only applies to circuits energized by PV sources, not circuits energized by other sources such as a utility, a battery, or a generator. The justification for RS was to protect firefighters working in or on buildings performing emergency operations. So if a PV array is attached to the building (not just on a roof, but for example an awning) then 690.12 certainly applies. For a ground mounted system the answer is "it depends". If the circuits energized by the PV array do not enter the building (i.e. a PV system ending at an outdoor battery shed) then it doesn't. If a dc circuit comes from the PV array and enters a home then you need a means to bring that circuit below 30V before attaching to, or entering, the home. That might be a readily accessible disconnect (marked as an RS initiation device) not mounted on the home or some type of remote relay (listed to 1741 RS) operated by an RS initiation switch on the home. The NEC 2020 language regarding 690.12 hasn't changed that much. The most significant change is to further clarify what conductors must be controlled in 690.12(A). That new language and informational note may help some struggling with this issue though. The other changes mainly improve the application of the new draft UL3741 standard to the inside array requirements. Note that in both 2017 and 2020 there should be no inside the array (690.12(B)(2)) requirements for any ground mounted system not attached to a building. I hope no other people out there are suggesting there are. That was never identified as a requirement for 690.12. If an inspector in your area wants that I would personally have a prolonged discussion about that. I don't think that position is supported by the Code language, or public record on the debates around this issue. It's not a who's "right" or "wrong" debate. It is simply how to apply the Code to the installation. Also a heads up to look at new 2020 language in 480, 706, 692, 694, and even 445, requiring the disconnection of all onsite sources from buildings. For 1">I realize the 2017 (or probably 2020) language isn't 100% clear. It never seems to be unfortunately. While I won't say the language is "correct", the way I describe these issues above is in line with the public inputs/comments/debates during the Code panel's (CMP-4) development process, starting in 2014 and continuing to 2020. If anyone has specific ideas for 2023 improvements please let me know. Hope some of that helps you all. Jason Fisher stc.jason at gmail.com ------------------------- FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray SENT: Monday, September 30, 2019 1:40 PM TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems The PV system (and 690.12) stop at the PV Disconnect. (see figure 690.1(b), Note (2)). Charge Controllers are part of the Energy Storage system (706) now. We presented this in our plan sets, and we drew clear lines on the wiring diagram showing which articles applied to which parts of the system. The AHJs have not challenged us on this. However, they pulled a bunch of other stuff out, for instance that 705 still applies to off grid.... I still have not seen a good presentation anywhere on applying NEC 2017 to off grid, outside of the RE Wrenches list. Everyone is still figuring this all out for off grid after all the changes in 2017. Can't wait to see what 2020 looks like.... Ray WaltersRemote Solar303 505-8760 On 9/28/19 11:33 AM, jay wrote: HI Jason Does that mean that 690.12 B 1 would apply with the following. A ground mounted or external array to a living structure and if the CC was less than 1 meter from entry into the building You wouldn't need rapid shut down? jay peltz power On Sep 27, 2019, at 6:56 PM, Jason Fisher (STC) wrote: Just a reminder to everyone struggling with this issue that only building-attached circuits energized by PV sources require RSD. So ground mounts generally don't, or at least would only require a disconnect at the building if sending dc circuits into buildings. Energy Storage is covered under article 706 in 2017 and does not require any shutdown, just sensible disconnection requirements. Jason Fisher ------------------------- _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4]Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5]List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6]List rules ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [9] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [10] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:stc.jason at gmail.com [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [10] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stc.jason at gmail.com Mon Sep 30 22:32:35 2019 From: stc.jason at gmail.com (Jason Fisher (STC)) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 02:32:35 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: <57ee758d72e3c9cf64628b905417ad74@127.0.0.1> References: <6331FC1C-08D5-4CE0-8E80-41C1E2088CA9@gmail.com>, <99a725cc-d7ed-ee79-aca1-7ddb0a95c3ea@solarray.com> , <57ee758d72e3c9cf64628b905417ad74@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hi Dave, If I was your AHJ then sure but since I’m not, you would need to work through their comfort with this approach since the 690.12 Code language is “PV system circuits installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid shutdown function to reduce shock hazard...” Note the requirement applies to circuits. Since it says “on or in” that might make someone feel that a conduit and disconnect fastened to the building would not be ok, though one installed a foot away from the building wall on its own support structure would be. Personally I feel that if there is a reasonable length of a circuit installed outdoors that remains above 30V, and there is a good reason for it (like in your example) then this is no different than the limited amount of service entrance conductors that remain live after the service disconnect is opened. But I can’t guarantee everyone else will take that position. I’d bring that up in a constructive discussion though. Jason ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Monday, September 30, 2019 6:49 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems Thanks Jason, I have one question on the sentence, ". If a dc circuit comes from the PV array and enters a home then you need a means to bring that circuit below 30V before attaching to, or entering, the home. That might be a readily accessible disconnect (marked as an RS initiation device) not mounted on the home or some type of remote relay (listed to 1741 RS) operated by an RS initiation switch on the home." An example of what I have done many times. There is a 600v square D disco mounted on the garage exterior wall from a ground mounted array. The garage is attached to the home. Is thIs meeting the intent here please? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar"we go where powerlines don't"http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/e-mail offgridsolar at sti.nettext 209 813 0060 On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 22:14:10 +0000, "Jason Fisher (STC)" wrote: Hi Jay, Ray makes the right distinction between the PV system and other systems that I think applies to your example. This was the big change in 2017 as we pulled all the non-PV stuff out of 690 and created 706, 710, etc. The PV system disconnect is what you identify it to be though. Article 690 doesn't tell you what disconnect is the PV system disconnect, just that one must be identified per system. Also there is no limit on the number of disconnects in a PV system, so you could have one local disconnect located at an array for servicing etc but then add another one someplace else and identify that one as the PV system disconnect if you wanted. The system disconnect is the final one that separates the PV system from other system conductors. Other disconnects found in a system are typically equipment disconnects for servicing etc. 690.12 Rapid Shutdown only applies to circuits energized by PV sources, not circuits energized by other sources such as a utility, a battery, or a generator. The justification for RS was to protect firefighters working in or on buildings performing emergency operations. So if a PV array is attached to the building (not just on a roof, but for example an awning) then 690.12 certainly applies. For a ground mounted system the answer is "it depends". If the circuits energized by the PV array do not enter the building (i.e. a PV system ending at an outdoor battery shed) then it doesn't. If a dc circuit comes from the PV array and enters a home then you need a means to bring that circuit below 30V before attaching to, or entering, the home. That might be a readily accessible disconnect (marked as an RS initiation device) not mounted on the home or some type of remote relay (listed to 1741 RS) operated by an RS initiation switch on the home. The NEC 2020 language regarding 690.12 hasn't changed that much. The most significant change is to further clarify what conductors must be controlled in 690.12(A). That new language and informational note may help some struggling with this issue though. The other changes mainly improve the application of the new draft UL3741 standard to the inside array requirements. Note that in both 2017 and 2020 there should be no inside the array (690.12(B)(2)) requirements for any ground mounted system not attached to a building. I hope no other people out there are suggesting there are. That was never identified as a requirement for 690.12. If an inspector in your area wants that I would personally have a prolonged discussion about that. I don't think that position is supported by the Code language, or public record on the debates around this issue. It's not a who's "right" or "wrong" debate. It is simply how to apply the Code to the installation. Also a heads up to look at new 2020 language in 480, 706, 692, 694, and even 445, requiring the disconnection of all onsite sources from buildings. For 1&2 family dwelling these disconnects must be outside. This parallels the new requirement for outdoor disconnects for utility services outside of these buildings. These new requirements close the loops that can concern in others about what happens to other circuits when I initiate RS for a PV array. None of these requirements are rapid shutdown though. It is all about de-energizing feeders and branch circuits in buildings. I think these requirements will often apply to off-grid systems. They are pretty straightforward though since the requirements are much higher level and not as prescriptive as 690.12. I realize the 2017 (or probably 2020) language isn't 100% clear. It never seems to be unfortunately. While I won't say the language is "correct", the way I describe these issues above is in line with the public inputs/comments/debates during the Code panel's (CMP-4) development process, starting in 2014 and continuing to 2020. If anyone has specific ideas for 2023 improvements please let me know. Hope some of that helps you all. Jason Fisher stc.jason at gmail.com ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray Sent: Monday, September 30, 2019 1:40 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems The PV system (and 690.12) stop at the PV Disconnect. (see figure 690.1(b), Note (2)). Charge Controllers are part of the Energy Storage system (706) now. We presented this in our plan sets, and we drew clear lines on the wiring diagram showing which articles applied to which parts of the system. The AHJs have not challenged us on this. However, they pulled a bunch of other stuff out, for instance that 705 still applies to off grid.... I still have not seen a good presentation anywhere on applying NEC 2017 to off grid, outside of the RE Wrenches list. Everyone is still figuring this all out for off grid after all the changes in 2017. Can't wait to see what 2020 looks like.... Ray WaltersRemote Solar303 505-8760 On 9/28/19 11:33 AM, jay wrote: HI Jason Does that mean that 690.12 B 1 would apply with the following. A ground mounted or external array to a living structure and if the CC was less than 1 meter from entry into the building You wouldn't need rapid shut down? jay peltz power On Sep 27, 2019, at 6:56 PM, Jason Fisher (STC) > wrote: Just a reminder to everyone struggling with this issue that only building-attached circuits energized by PV sources require RSD. So ground mounts generally don't, or at least would only require a disconnect at the building if sending dc circuits into buildings. Energy Storage is covered under article 706 in 2017 and does not require any shutdown, just sensible disconnection requirements. Jason Fisher ________________________________ _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Oct 1 13:04:15 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 10:04:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems Message-ID: Hi Jason, Thanks and I get your points. They make sense. Seperate the Disco from the house by a foot would not be too hard. Another way to convey that the disco is off going into the structure would be to have the conduit out of the disco on the outside of the structure for all to see rather than disappearing into the wall. Might work with some, might not:( As long as the disco is not locked one could look. A lock would not stop the firemen anyway....They are very happy that the solar is not on the roof where they may need to ventilate. Lucky that very few Offgrid homes need an AHJ. They usually sign the certificate of occupancy with a genset running in the Sierra:) Many Offgrid homes can't get insurance anymore out here because of the fires. Grid homes also. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 02:32:35 +0000, "Jason Fisher (STC)" wrote: Hi Dave, If I was your AHJ then sure but since I'm not, you would need to work through their comfort with this approach since the 690.12 Code language is "PV system circuits installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid shutdown function to reduce shock hazard..." Note the requirement applies to circuits. Since it says "on or in" that might make someone feel that a conduit and disconnect fastened to the building would not be ok, though one installed a foot away from the building wall on its own support structure would be. Personally I feel that if there is a reasonable length of a circuit installed outdoors that remains above 30V, and there is a good reason for it (like in your example) then this is no different than the limited amount of service entrance conductors that remain live after the service disconnect is opened. But I can't guarantee everyone else will take that position. I'd bring that up in a constructive discussion though. Jason ------------------------- FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar SENT: Monday, September 30, 2019 6:49 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems Thanks Jason, I have one question on the sentence, ". If a dc circuit comes from the PV array and enters a home then you need a means to bring that circuit below 30V before attaching to, or entering, the home. That might be a readily accessible disconnect (marked as an RS initiation device) not mounted on the home or some type of remote relay (listed to 1741 RS) operated by an RS initiation switch on the home." An example of what I have done many times. There is a 600v square D disco mounted on the garage exterior wall from a ground mounted array. The garage is attached to the home. Is thIs meeting the intent here please? DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR"WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T"E-MAIL TEXT 209 813 0060 On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 22:14:10 +0000, "Jason Fisher (STC)" wrote: Hi Jay, Ray makes the right distinction between the PV system and other systems that I think applies to your example. This was the big change in 2017 as we pulled all the non-PV stuff out of 690 and created 706, 710, etc. The PV system disconnect is what you identify it to be though. Article 690 doesn't tell you what disconnect is the PV system disconnect, just that one must be identified per system. Also there is no limit on the number of disconnects in a PV system, so you could have one local disconnect located at an array for servicing etc but then add another one someplace else and identify that one as the PV system disconnect if you wanted. The system disconnect is the final one that separates the PV system from other system conductors. Other disconnects found in a system are typically equipment disconnects for servicing etc. 690.12 Rapid Shutdown only applies to circuits energized by PV sources, not circuits energized by other sources such as a utility, a battery, or a generator. The justification for RS was to protect firefighters working in or on buildings performing emergency operations. So if a PV array is attached to the building (not just on a roof, but for example an awning) then 690.12 certainly applies. For a ground mounted system the answer is "it depends". If the circuits energized by the PV array do not enter the building (i.e. a PV system ending at an outdoor battery shed) then it doesn't. If a dc circuit comes from the PV array and enters a home then you need a means to bring that circuit below 30V before attaching to, or entering, the home. That might be a readily accessible disconnect (marked as an RS initiation device) not mounted on the home or some type of remote relay (listed to 1741 RS) operated by an RS initiation switch on the home. The NEC 2020 language regarding 690.12 hasn't changed that much. The most significant change is to further clarify what conductors must be controlled in 690.12(A). That new language and informational note may help some struggling with this issue though. The other changes mainly improve the application of the new draft UL3741 standard to the inside array requirements. Note that in both 2017 and 2020 there should be no inside the array (690.12(B)(2)) requirements for any ground mounted system not attached to a building. I hope no other people out there are suggesting there are. That was never identified as a requirement for 690.12. If an inspector in your area wants that I would personally have a prolonged discussion about that. I don't think that position is supported by the Code language, or public record on the debates around this issue. It's not a who's "right" or "wrong" debate. It is simply how to apply the Code to the installation. Also a heads up to look at new 2020 language in 480, 706, 692, 694, and even 445, requiring the disconnection of all onsite sources from buildings. For 1">I realize the 2017 (or probably 2020) language isn't 100% clear. It never seems to be unfortunately. While I won't say the language is "correct", the way I describe these issues above is in line with the public inputs/comments/debates during the Code panel's (CMP-4) development process, starting in 2014 and continuing to 2020. If anyone has specific ideas for 2023 improvements please let me know. Hope some of that helps you all. Jason Fisher stc.jason at gmail.com ------------------------- FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray SENT: Monday, September 30, 2019 1:40 PM TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems The PV system (and 690.12) stop at the PV Disconnect. (see figure 690.1(b), Note (2)). Charge Controllers are part of the Energy Storage system (706) now. We presented this in our plan sets, and we drew clear lines on the wiring diagram showing which articles applied to which parts of the system. The AHJs have not challenged us on this. However, they pulled a bunch of other stuff out, for instance that 705 still applies to off grid.... I still have not seen a good presentation anywhere on applying NEC 2017 to off grid, outside of the RE Wrenches list. Everyone is still figuring this all out for off grid after all the changes in 2017. Can't wait to see what 2020 looks like.... Ray WaltersRemote Solar303 505-8760 On 9/28/19 11:33 AM, jay wrote: HI Jason Does that mean that 690.12 B 1 would apply with the following. A ground mounted or external array to a living structure and if the CC was less than 1 meter from entry into the building You wouldn't need rapid shut down? jay peltz power On Sep 27, 2019, at 6:56 PM, Jason Fisher (STC) wrote: Just a reminder to everyone struggling with this issue that only building-attached circuits energized by PV sources require RSD. So ground mounts generally don't, or at least would only require a disconnect at the building if sending dc circuits into buildings. Energy Storage is covered under article 706 in 2017 and does not require any shutdown, just sensible disconnection requirements. Jason Fisher ------------------------- _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4]Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5]List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6]List rules ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [9] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [10] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:stc.jason at gmail.com [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [10] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Oct 2 14:33:14 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 11:33:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options Message-ID: <705f68879ac59651d39ddec23e75bf8c@127.0.0.1> Howie, check that AC coupling is not enabled on XW+. Widen AC2 genset specs to max. XW+ should be 60.0 hertz on inverter and sync to genset frequency. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 08:52:28 -0400, Howie Michaelson wrote: On a separate note, I'm having an issue with one of the XW+6848's that are using the blueions, although I don't think the battery has anything to do with the issue. This is a client I just upgraded from a dual stack vfx3648. They just replaced the generator in part on my recommendation (it was old, but also one leg was putting out 66-70 HZ, which seemed very odd but my meter said as much and so did the XW. When we tried to sync the inverter to the old generator to charge the batteries, the inverter wouldn't pick up the generator, which is when I discovered high inverter output HZ. I talked to Schneider and they convinced me that the generator caused the inverter to mimic the voltage/frequency characteristics, so even though the inverter never packed up the generator, once the inverter saw the gennie output, it got stuck at this higher frequency and stayed there until I power-cycled the inverter. Sounded plausible to me. However, after having just replaced the generator to a 14kW Kohler, the client tried to get the generator to pick up that new power output, and the inverter frequency ended up sky high again. Unfortunately, I was not on site (headed there now) to see up close what is going on, but it seems too coincidental that the new genny would be causing the high frequency. Just wondering if you've heard of any similar circumstances. I'm not sure I trust Schneider support to suss out the problem accurately, hence I am asking you. I will try them when I get to the site, just looking for anyideas on you part. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson SUN CATCHER NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Solar Electric Systems Sales ">802-272-0004 On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 2:57 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Discover AES also gives redundancy if you use 2 or more of their 6.5KWH batteries. The reason I use them is their is no configuration. Plug in xanbus and AES bus and some battery cables and you are done. See screenshot. They work with Outback but you need to program setpoints and wire an external Battery monitor if you want Soc. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [5] text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] List rules ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [11] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [12] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [12] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Oct 2 17:30:18 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 14:30:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <6afa3df85cc75366c1014255634c7fdd@127.0.0.1> Schneider now has a rapid shutdown solution fro their Mppt's. Will be testing this here soon. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/mppt-disconnect-rs-for-nec-2017-compliance/ [1] Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [3] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/mppt-disconnect-rs-for-nec-2017-compliance/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: RS.PNG Type: image/png Size: 102829 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Wed Oct 2 17:46:53 2019 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 15:46:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 30-50kW 120/208V solar+storage recommendations? Message-ID: Anyone have any recommendations for Rule 21 compliant 30-50kW 120/208V solar+storage options, preferably with backup capability (i.e. not Storedge). Seems like many of the traditional residential players have options these days, but curious how they perform in the real world. Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Oct 3 11:34:05 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 11:34:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA US 7.7 T-L 41 Message-ID: <1570116886350.44bb54bd1b2456ab@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, A TL-41 came instead of a TL -40. The mounting instructions say to use 2 screws on the conduit box under the inverter to hold up the entire unit Tech support is being trained soon, but so far does not know. Emacs! Can this be right? Thanks, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3c233df.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 100192 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 3 12:00:46 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 09:00:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 8d battery replacement Message-ID: Hi all Ive got a client with dead 8d’S. 48v system, had 3 strings, about 600ah. I was planning on using the OB PLC 200 but is discontinued and the replacement is 1-2 months out. They were 3000 cycles to 50% DOD. Wondering what people would recommend. Lithium is not an option, too expensive up front. He’s already got a 3 tier racking system for the 8D’s. Any recommendations as to either best cycle life 8D or something might fit into the same rack, which the OB would have. Right now I’m leaning towards just having him wait, which he can do as it’s his 2 or 3rd home which he’s not using, and this house is only used infrequently. Thx Jay From ray at solarray.com Thu Oct 3 13:00:05 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 11:00:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 8d battery replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f7453e0-33fa-ec6f-3280-ffeb91922691@solarray.com> Have you looked at Northstar?  They make some similar batteries. Personally I never used the 8Ds.  I would save my back and go with golf cart AGMs, or if going heavy, I use the L16 style AGM, and reduce the # of parallel strings.  Many AGMs can be laid on their side, so you might check your rack measurements to see what else would fit. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/3/19 10:00 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > Ive got a client with dead 8d’S. 48v system, had 3 strings, about 600ah. > > I was planning on using the OB PLC 200 but is discontinued and the replacement is 1-2 months out. They were 3000 cycles to 50% DOD. > > Wondering what people would recommend. > Lithium is not an option, too expensive up front. > He’s already got a 3 tier racking system for the 8D’s. > > Any recommendations as to either best cycle life 8D or something might fit into the same rack, which the OB would have. Right now I’m leaning towards just having him wait, which he can do as it’s his 2 or 3rd home which he’s not using, and this house is only used infrequently. > > Thx > Jay > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Oct 3 13:36:24 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 10:36:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 8d battery replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <824697a8e272ff0d7fa769295a1786bb@127.0.0.1> Full River use to make an 8D AGM back aways. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 09:00:46 -0700, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > Ive got a client with dead 8d’S. 48v system, had 3 strings, about 600ah. > > I was planning on using the OB PLC 200 but is discontinued and the > replacement is 1-2 months out. They were 3000 cycles to 50% DOD. > > Wondering what people would recommend. > Lithium is not an option, too expensive up front. > He’s already got a 3 tier racking system for the 8D’s. > > Any recommendations as to either best cycle life 8D or something might fit > into the same rack, which the OB would have. Right now I’m leaning towards > just having him wait, which he can do as it’s his 2 or 3rd home which he’s > not using, and this house is only used infrequently. > > Thx > Jay > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Oct 3 13:56:10 2019 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 17:56:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 8d battery replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay, We just had the same situation, client had a set of Concorde 8D's that were at least 20 years old. Racking in place. We replaced with East Penn Intimidator series 8D AGM's for simplicity. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: October-03-19 9:01 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 8d battery replacement Hi all Ive got a client with dead 8d’S. 48v system, had 3 strings, about 600ah. I was planning on using the OB PLC 200 but is discontinued and the replacement is 1-2 months out. They were 3000 cycles to 50% DOD. Wondering what people would recommend. Lithium is not an option, too expensive up front. He’s already got a 3 tier racking system for the 8D’s. Any recommendations as to either best cycle life 8D or something might fit into the same rack, which the OB would have. Right now I’m leaning towards just having him wait, which he can do as it’s his 2 or 3rd home which he’s not using, and this house is only used infrequently. Thx Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From maverick at mavericksolar.com Thu Oct 3 14:22:47 2019 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 13:22:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 8d battery replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay Sounds like he doesn’t cycle them very often. So... Concorde makes a nice 8D AGM. So does Fullriver. Thank you, Maverick > On Oct 3, 2019, at 11:00 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all > > Ive got a client with dead 8d’S. 48v system, had 3 strings, about 600ah. > > I was planning on using the OB PLC 200 but is discontinued and the replacement is 1-2 months out. They were 3000 cycles to 50% DOD. > > Wondering what people would recommend. > Lithium is not an option, too expensive up front. > He’s already got a 3 tier racking system for the 8D’s. > > Any recommendations as to either best cycle life 8D or something might fit into the same rack, which the OB would have. Right now I’m leaning towards just having him wait, which he can do as it’s his 2 or 3rd home which he’s not using, and this house is only used infrequently. > > Thx > Jay > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Thu Oct 3 13:08:47 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 17:08:47 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA US 7.7 T-L 41 In-Reply-To: <1570116886350.44bb54bd1b2456ab@redwoodalliance.org> References: <1570116886350.44bb54bd1b2456ab@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake - that is indeed correct. Spacing for the Connection Unit (CU) holes matches what was available in top holes of old mounting bracket. With those screws landing into studs, the unit will be sufficiently supported by the die-cast aluminum CU. The only concern I have heard is an installer who mounted it to a horizontal Unistrut rail - the unit wanted to rotate around the rail. Having a rigid surface behind the unit will prevent this. Also - please ensure the ribbon cable from the communications board in the CU that comes from the Power Unit (PU) upper part is detached at the communications board before separating the two halves. All units are power tested at the factory so the connection is needed, but it is not disconnected upon shipment. I do not feel this required step is sufficiently clear in our manuals currently. Best regards - Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg][http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D54D07.DC1BFFF0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2019 9:34 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA US 7.7 T-L 41 Hello Wrenches, A TL-41 came instead of a TL -40. The mounting instructions say to use 2 screws on the conduit box under the inverter to hold up the entire unit Tech support is being trained soon, but so far does not know. [Emacs!] Can this be right? Thanks, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 428 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 100192 bytes Desc: image008.jpg URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Oct 8 14:34:32 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 11:34:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Rapid Shutdown Compliance with Schneider Conext + Message-ID: <60fad92acdcc73985cb8e5c36b0a317d@127.0.0.1> Hi Ian, Schneider has a new rapid shut down. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/mppt-disconnect-rs-for-nec-2017-compliance/ [1] I cc'd Sandra Herrera at Schneider if you need specific help. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [3] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 18:05:17 +0000, Ian Pahl wrote: Good Afternoon, I am reaching out to you because I have had an awfully difficult time getting ahold of tech support at Schneider, as 2 weeks ago I attempted to register as an installer, though no response has happened other than automated emails. I am looking to make the Schneider NEC 2017 compliant for an off grid system, utilizing Schneider, and was wondering if you happened to know of a solution that you utilize for your off grid projects. The only solution I have found is to installe Midnite Solar transmitters/recievers with Birdhouse, if you have any other ideas, we are all ears! Thank you! Respectfully, IAN C. PAHL Renewable Energy Specialist Direct: 603.931.0598 Office: 603.863.7521 475 Sunapee Street Newport, NH 03773 [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] Serving the Lake Sunapee, Kearsarge, color: #4472c4;"> _"If you cannot do great things, do small things in a great way"_ -- -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [10] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [11] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/mppt-disconnect-rs-for-nec-2017-compliance/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] http://www.sol-air.com/ [5] https://www.facebook.com/SolAirNH/ [6] https://www.instagram.com/ne_solar_concepts/ [7] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRTzolFtyxEkDEfU5E_N1ww [8] https://twitter.com/SolAirNH [9] https://www.pinterest.com/solairNH/ [10] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [11] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: RS.PNG Type: image/png Size: 102829 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Wed Oct 9 14:01:21 2019 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 11:01:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG 35mm replacement modules help! Message-ID: <00ec01d57ecb$8f3b0b90$adb122b0$@solarwindworks.com> Hi fellow wrenches, I have a client, a farmer that shattered 3 LG 275S1C-B3 modules with the 35 mm thick frames. This most likely happened while he was using his mower, and we’re looking for 3 or 4 replacements. (A spare seems appropriate) These are on the Enphase M250 micro inverters so we can take any wattage size w/ the 35 mm LG’s from the 265 up to the 305 N1C-B3’s. Thanks in advance for your help! Please contact me off list if you can help fill the bill here! Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP PV Installation Professional Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 10:50 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld warranty Hello all, Is there any entity that is covering Solarworld warranties? Thanks, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 16:46:15 2019 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 14:46:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ISO low efficiency modules Message-ID: Wrenches - We're looking for 100-300 kW of low efficiency, low cost modules. Got a few hundred old 250s taking up space in your warehouse? I'm your guy! So long at the warranty is intact and they are ITC eligible, we are interested. Please contact me off-list. Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Mon Oct 14 14:20:36 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 14:20:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SPR-5200 inverter parts Message-ID: Hi All, I believe this was also a PV Powered rebranded inverter. I have someone with one of these inverters which has stopped working. It appears that when it has AC voltage on the terminals in the inverter, there is no voltage on the wires that go to the transformer in the upper part of the inverter. Has anyone experienced this, and would a replacement board fix the issue? And would anyone have anything like that available? And if not, can anyone even get a grounded inverter these days? Sunpower tells me to get a SB6000US, but I cannot even find one of those. Thanks, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Oct 14 14:32:52 2019 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 14:32:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fluke 87 replacement Message-ID: G'Day All, Well my 24 year old Fluke 87 finally passed. It was a great unit and fit all my needs. Before I go out and buy another I thought I'd reach out to see if any of my peers would suggest anything different or possibly a step above in the Fluke family or another brand? Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Mon Oct 14 14:47:34 2019 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 14:47:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fluke 87 replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Hioki CM4372 seems to be the best clamp-on amp meter for PV out there these days. 1,500 VDC, two current ranges, and a ton of other features including a bluetooth app that can do logging. Plus it's about the same price as a Fluke clamp-on amp meter. https://www.hioki.com/en/products/detail/?product_key=6362 Thanks, Will -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 2:33 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'Day All, > > Well my 24 year old Fluke 87 finally passed. It was a great unit and fit > all my needs. Before I go out and buy another I thought I'd reach out to > see if any of my peers would suggest anything different or possibly a step > above in the Fluke family or another brand? > > Thanks, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Oct 14 14:57:30 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 14:57:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fluke 87 replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005e01d582c1$3c730e90$b5592bb0$@glbcc.com> Hi Christopher, I had to replace my Fluke 87 about a dozen years ago as well. I went with the Fluke 189 and have not regretted it. I think I sent it in to Fluke for repair (the 87) and they gave me the option to repair it for $$ or trade it in for a discounted replacement. I chose the improved model. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 2:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fluke 87 replacement G'Day All, Well my 24 year old Fluke 87 finally passed. It was a great unit and fit all my needs. Before I go out and buy another I thought I'd reach out to see if any of my peers would suggest anything different or possibly a step above in the Fluke family or another brand? Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Mon Oct 14 15:01:53 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 15:01:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] trickle charger for 4 12V batteries Message-ID: Hi All, If someone were to bring their set of 4 sealed LA batteries from an off grid cabin into their house for the winter, I am recommending that they get a trickle charger to keep them topped off for the ~6 months that they will not be in use. Does anyone have recommendations for a product? And is it best to get 4 separate 12V chargers, one 48V charger, or a single 12V charger and put them all in parallel? Or am I just overthinking this? Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Oct 14 15:17:41 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 12:17:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] trickle charger for 4 12V batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave LA type batteries like exercise, not just keeping them fully charged, there are smart chargers that load then charge the batteries Jerry On Mon, Oct 14, 2019, 12:02 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > > If someone were to bring their set of 4 sealed LA batteries from an off > grid cabin into their house for the winter, I am recommending that they get > a trickle charger to keep them topped off for the ~6 months that they will > not be in use. > > Does anyone have recommendations for a product? And is it best to get 4 > separate 12V chargers, one 48V charger, or a single 12V charger and put > them all in parallel? Or am I just overthinking this? > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Mon Oct 14 15:30:58 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 19:30:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SPR-5200 inverter parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave – Definitely hard to find a transformer based inverter these days. If looking for a SB 6000US (this is not an endorsement by SMA), you can look at Solar Cowboyz and their new division, You Love Solar. They have SB 6000US listed on the website: https://you-love-solar.myshopify.com/ Please pay attention to their note that the unit DOES NOT have AFCI and does not include a DC disconnect (though they appear to have those as well) If you go that route, and if the SP modules require positive grounding, ensure you swap the GFDI fuse holders and set the jumper correctly as negative grounding was the factory default setup. Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg][http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D54D07.DC1BFFF0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 12:21 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SPR-5200 inverter parts Hi All, I believe this was also a PV Powered rebranded inverter. I have someone with one of these inverters which has stopped working. It appears that when it has AC voltage on the terminals in the inverter, there is no voltage on the wires that go to the transformer in the upper part of the inverter. Has anyone experienced this, and would a replacement board fix the issue? And would anyone have anything like that available? And if not, can anyone even get a grounded inverter these days? Sunpower tells me to get a SB6000US, but I cannot even find one of those. Thanks, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 428 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 428 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 717 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22585 bytes Desc: image007.jpg URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Oct 14 18:32:22 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 18:32:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: <6afa3df85cc75366c1014255634c7fdd@127.0.0.1> References: , <6afa3df85cc75366c1014255634c7fdd@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <004101d582df$40b6b010$c2241030$@glbcc.com> Well, they have announced a new piece of equipment… At the moment it looks more like a dream than reality – no installation or use manuals available, no dealers I know have them… -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2019 5:30 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems Schneider now has a rapid shutdown solution fro their Mppt's. Will be testing this here soon. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/mppt-disconnect-rs-for-nec-2017-compliance/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Oct 14 19:15:12 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 16:15:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: <004101d582df$40b6b010$c2241030$@glbcc.com> References: , <6afa3df85cc75366c1014255634c7fdd@127.0.0.1> <004101d582df$40b6b010$c2241030$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Maybe someone at Schneider can respond. I do see it at my supplier (no price?) and it is pretty easy to install but yes there is not much on the Schneider website about this new product other than a data sheet. I am forwarding this BTW. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 18:32:22 -0400, "Glenn Burt" wrote: Well, they have announced a new piece of equipment... At the moment it looks more like a dream than reality - no installation or use manuals available, no dealers I know have them... -Glenn FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar SENT: Wednesday, October 02, 2019 5:30 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems Schneider now has a rapid shutdown solution fro their Mppt's. Will be testing this here soon. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/mppt-disconnect-rs-for-nec-2017-compliance/ [3] DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT 209 813 0060 -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [5] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/mppt-disconnect-rs-for-nec-2017-compliance/ [4] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Oct 16 07:34:00 2019 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:34:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fluke 87 replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have the same Hioki and I love it, the bluetooth logging feature is great for quick surveys, I'm in and out faster than I can set up my Fluke 435 Analyzer. On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 2:47 PM Will White wrote: > The Hioki CM4372 seems to be the best clamp-on amp meter for PV out there > these days. 1,500 VDC, two current ranges, and a ton of other features > including a bluetooth app that can do logging. Plus it's about the same > price as a Fluke clamp-on amp meter. > > https://www.hioki.com/en/products/detail/?product_key=6362 > > Thanks, > Will > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power > the world with renewable energy.* > > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 2:33 PM Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> G'Day All, >> >> Well my 24 year old Fluke 87 finally passed. It was a great unit and fit >> all my needs. Before I go out and buy another I thought I'd reach out to >> see if any of my peers would suggest anything different or possibly a step >> above in the Fluke family or another brand? >> >> Thanks, >> Christopher- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power > the world with renewable energy.* > > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Wed Oct 16 11:54:46 2019 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 09:54:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options In-Reply-To: <2bd003379b4fcd242ffe7a6a9d780e55@127.0.0.1> References: <01a901d52203$14e6e460$3eb4ad20$@OasisMontana.com> <3698a795f7773605c9c789f1305edc85@127.0.0.1> <00d001d52231$96d9b690$c48d23b0$@OasisMontana.com> <2bd003379b4fcd242ffe7a6a9d780e55@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <00ea01d5843a$0909bb60$1b1d3220$@OasisMontana.com> Dear people: Well, I’ve found these folks: https://www.allearthrenewables.com/the-allearth-solar-tracker …but after several inquiries and contacting a couple of their alleged dealers, I still cannot get any pricing or availability information, or even if this is a real product. C’est la vie! Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 3:55 PM To: chris at OasisMontana.com Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Hi Chris, If you find something please let us know. You are right, the old (no longer made) AZ 125 from Wattsun was the best. 2KW tracked on a 6 inch pole. Mix that in with a ground array and you have a really nice system. The AZ 225 is too heavy on the 8 inch pipe without a backhoe, especially on a hill. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 15:47:24 -0600, > wrote: Yes, I know what Wattsun has to offer, but some customers are looking for something MUCH smaller. Thanks Dave! --Chris @ the sunny Oasis MT From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 1:11 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Have you looked at the Wattsun HZLA? No ladders and with the right module about 5KW tracked. Perfect for long hours of cooling or pumping. http://www.wattsun.com/products/accutrak-hzla-tracker Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 12:46:58 -0400, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: Chris, We have used AER for trackers. We've had good success with them. https://www.allearthrenewables.com/product/allearth-solar-trackers Cheers, Dave From: Glenn Burt > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 12:13 PM To: chris at OasisMontana.com ; 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options I see a lot of AllEarth Renewables trackers here in the Northeast. Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 12:40 PM > wrote: Dear people: Now that Zomeworks is more-or-less down the tubes, what resources do you have for a residential tracking system? Wattsun's 'one size fits all' really doesn't (and I don't need a need a lecture of ROI for buying more modules versus a tracker). I'm just wondering if there are more options besides the utility grade models. We have a great pole mount supplier – but some folks want a tracker. I'm looking forward to your responses. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Wed Oct 16 12:21:52 2019 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 09:21:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options In-Reply-To: <00ea01d5843a$0909bb60$1b1d3220$@OasisMontana.com> References: <01a901d52203$14e6e460$3eb4ad20$@OasisMontana.com> <3698a795f7773605c9c789f1305edc85@127.0.0.1> <00d001d52231$96d9b690$c48d23b0$@OasisMontana.com> <2bd003379b4fcd242ffe7a6a9d780e55@127.0.0.1> <00ea01d5843a$0909bb60$1b1d3220$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: They're real. And pricey, ~$45k/unit. On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 9:18 AM wrote: > Dear people: Well, I’ve found these folks: > https://www.allearthrenewables.com/the-allearth-solar-tracker …but after > several inquiries and contacting a couple of their alleged dealers, I still > cannot get any pricing or availability information, or even if this is a > real product. C’est la vie! > > > > Best, > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > > > *From:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > *Sent:* Thursday, June 13, 2019 3:55 PM > *To:* chris at OasisMontana.com > *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options > > > > Hi Chris, > > If you find something please let us know. You are right, the old (no > longer made) AZ 125 from Wattsun was the best. 2KW tracked on a 6 inch > pole. Mix that in with a ground array and you have a really nice system. > The AZ 225 is too heavy on the 8 inch pipe without a backhoe, especially on > a hill. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 15:47:24 -0600, wrote: > > Yes, I know what Wattsun has to offer, but some customers are looking for > something MUCH smaller. Thanks Dave! > > > > --Chris @ the sunny Oasis MT > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > *Sent:* Thursday, June 13, 2019 1:11 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options > > > > Have you looked at the Wattsun HZLA? No ladders and with the right module > about 5KW tracked. Perfect for long hours of cooling or pumping. > http://www.wattsun.com/products/accutrak-hzla-tracker > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 12:46:58 -0400, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > > Chris, > > We have used AER for trackers. We've had good success with them. > > https://www.allearthrenewables.com/product/allearth-solar-trackers > > > > Cheers, > > Dave > > > > > > > > *From:* Glenn Burt > *Sent:* Thursday, June 13, 2019 12:13 PM > *To:* chris at OasisMontana.com; 'RE-wrenches' < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options > > > > I see a lot of AllEarth Renewables trackers here in the Northeast. > > > > > > > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > > www.taitem.com > > > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 12:40 PM wrote: > > Dear people: > > Now that Zomeworks is more-or-less down the tubes, what resources do you > have for a residential tracking system? Wattsun's 'one size fits all' > really doesn't (and I don't need a need a lecture of ROI for buying more > modules versus a tracker). I'm just wondering if there are more options > besides the utility grade models. We have a great pole mount supplier – > but some folks want a tracker. I'm looking forward to your responses. > > Best, > > Chris > Daum > > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > > > 406-777-4309 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From evolvedsolar at gmail.com Wed Oct 16 12:41:35 2019 From: evolvedsolar at gmail.com (Al Frishman) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:41:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking Message-ID: Hey Wrenchers, I’m working on a ballast racking project that has a ballasted roof (river rocks on the roof). The roof can not support the addition of cement blocks so I am planning to use the river rocks that are already on the roof as the solar ballast. I have done this before using the SolarDock racking system as it fully encloses the ballast in a tray which keeps the rocks in place. On the project I did about 6 yrs ago I hired a bunch of laborers to manually bag the rocks and it was quite labor intensive. Has anyone done this using some kind of vacuum system? I am hoping there is a better way. Also - Any other racking suggestions other than SolarDock for this application? I appreciate the feedback! Al Frishman EvolvedSolar (917) 699-6641 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Oct 16 12:49:16 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:49:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Message-ID: I live in VT, where they are manufactured, and have seen dozens of them installed across the state, as well as having inspected a number of them in New York State.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: chris at OasisMontana.comDate: Wed, Oct 16, 2019 12:18 PMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker optionsDear people:  Well, I’ve found these folks:  https://www.allearthrenewables.com/the-allearth-solar-tracker  …but after several inquiries and contacting a couple of their alleged dealers, I still cannot get any pricing or availability information, or even if this is a real product.  C’est la vie! Best, Chris DaumOasis Montana Inc.406-777-4309 or 4321406-777-4309 faxwww.oasismontana.com    From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 3:55 PMTo: chris at OasisMontana.comSubject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Hi Chris,If you find something please let us know. You are right, the old  (no longer made) AZ 125 from Wattsun was the best. 2KW tracked on a 6 inch pole. Mix that in with a ground array and you have a really nice system. The AZ 225 is too heavy on the 8 inch pipe without a backhoe, especially on a hill.Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar"we go where powerlines don't"http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/e-mail  offgridsolar at sti.nettext 209 813 0060On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 15:47:24 -0600, wrote:Yes, I know what Wattsun has to offer, but some customers are looking for something MUCH smaller.  Thanks Dave! --Chris @ the sunny Oasis MT From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid SolarSent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 1:11 PMTo: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Have you looked at the Wattsun HZLA? No ladders and with the right module about 5KW tracked. Perfect for long hours of cooling or pumping. http://www.wattsun.com/products/accutrak-hzla-trackerDave Angelini Offgrid Solar"we go where powerlines don't"http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/e-mail  offgridsolar at sti.nettext 209 813 0060On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 12:46:58 -0400, Dave Tedeyan wrote:Chris,  We have used AER for trackers. We've had good success with them.https://www.allearthrenewables.com/product/allearth-solar-trackers  Cheers, Dave    From: Glenn Burt Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 12:13 PMTo: chris at OasisMontana.com; 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options I see a lot of AllEarth Renewables trackers here in the Northeast.   Dave Tedeyan, PESenior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850o. 607.277.1118 x121  f. 607.277.2119www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • DesignB-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 12:40 PM wrote:Dear people:Now that Zomeworks is more-or-less down the tubes, what resources do you have for a residential tracking system?  Wattsun's 'one size fits all' really doesn't (and I don't need a need a lecture of ROI for buying more modules versus a tracker).  I'm just wondering if there are more options besides the utility grade models.  We have a great pole mount supplier – but some folks want a tracker.  I'm looking forward to your responses.Best,Chris Daum                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Oasis Montana Inc.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           406-777-4309  _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org--   --    -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Oct 16 13:59:54 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:59:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4c6605c12b2d740d7c170c2f68cac962@127.0.0.1> Hi Glen, I too have had issues getting info from All Earth. Do you know if they have any models on 6" pipe" Thx. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:49:16 -0400, Glenn Burt wrote: I live in VT, where they are manufactured, and have seen dozens of them installed across the state, as well as having inspected a number of them in New York State. -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ FROM: chris at OasisMontana.com [3] DATE: Wed, Oct 16, 2019 12:18 PM TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4]; CC: SUBJECT:Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Dear people: Well, I've found these folks: https://www.allearthrenewables.com/the-allearth-solar-tracker [5] ...but after several inquiries and contacting a couple of their alleged dealers, I still cannot get any pricing or availability information, or even if this is a real product. C'est la vie! Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 [6] or 4321 406-777-4309 [7] fax [8]www.oasismontana.com [9] FROM: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > [10] SENT: Thursday, June 13, 2019 3:55 PM TO: chris at OasisMontana.com [11] SUBJECT: RE: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Hi Chris, If you find something please let us know. You are right, the old (no longer made) AZ 125 from Wattsun was the best. 2KW tracked on a 6 inch pole. Mix that in with a ground array and you have a really nice system. The AZ 225 is too heavy on the 8 inch pipe without a backhoe, especially on a hill. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 15:47:24 -0600, wrote: Yes, I know what Wattsun has to offer, but some customers are looking for something MUCH smaller. Thanks Dave! --Chris @ the sunny Oasis MT FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar SENT: Thursday, June 13, 2019 1:11 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Have you looked at the Wattsun HZLA? No ladders and with the right module about 5KW tracked. Perfect for long hours of cooling or pumping. http://www.wattsun.com/products/accutrak-hzla-tracker [15] DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 12:46:58 -0400, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Chris, We have used AER for trackers. We've had good success with them. https://www.allearthrenewables.com/product/allearth-solar-trackers [17] Cheers, Dave FROM: Glenn Burt SENT: Thursday, June 13, 2019 12:13 PM TO: chris at OasisMontana.com [19]; 'RE-wrenches' SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options I see a lot of AllEarth Renewables trackers here in the Northeast. DAVE TEDEYAN, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 [21] x121 f. 607.277.2119 [22] www.taitem.com [23] Solar * Sustainability * Energy * Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 12:40 PM wrote: Dear people: Now that Zomeworks is more-or-less down the tubes, what resources do you have for a residential tracking system? Wattsun's 'one size fits all' really doesn't (and I don't need a need a lecture of ROI for buying more modules versus a tracker). I'm just wondering if there are more options besides the utility grade models. We have a great pole mount supplier - but some folks want a tracker. I'm looking forward to your responses. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 [25] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [26] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [27] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [28] List rules font-size: small;">-- -- -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:chris at OasisMontana.com [4] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] https://www.allearthrenewables.com/the-allearth-solar-tracker [6] http://webmail.sti.net/tel:406-777-4309 [7] http://webmail.sti.net/tel:406-777-4309 [8] http://www.oasismontana.com [9] http://www.oasismontana.com [10] mailto: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Oct 16 14:59:19 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:59:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options In-Reply-To: <4c6605c12b2d740d7c170c2f68cac962@127.0.0.1> References: <4c6605c12b2d740d7c170c2f68cac962@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <010401d58453$d4bd1090$7e3731b0$@glbcc.com> Hi Dave, As far as I know, you don’t supply the pipe, it is included with the unit, so no choice there. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 2:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Hi Glen, I too have had issues getting info from All Earth. Do you know if they have any models on 6" pipe" Thx. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:49:16 -0400, Glenn Burt > wrote: I live in VT, where they are manufactured, and have seen dozens of them installed across the state, as well as having inspected a number of them in New York State. -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ From: chris at OasisMontana.com Date: Wed, Oct 16, 2019 12:18 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ; Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Dear people: Well, I've found these folks: https://www.allearthrenewables.com/the-allearth-solar-tracker ...but after several inquiries and contacting a couple of their alleged dealers, I still cannot get any pricing or availability information, or even if this is a real product. C'est la vie! Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 3:55 PM To: chris at OasisMontana.com Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Hi Chris, If you find something please let us know. You are right, the old (no longer made) AZ 125 from Wattsun was the best. 2KW tracked on a 6 inch pole. Mix that in with a ground array and you have a really nice system. The AZ 225 is too heavy on the 8 inch pipe without a backhoe, especially on a hill. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 15:47:24 -0600, > wrote: Yes, I know what Wattsun has to offer, but some customers are looking for something MUCH smaller. Thanks Dave! --Chris @ the sunny Oasis MT From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 1:11 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Have you looked at the Wattsun HZLA? No ladders and with the right module about 5KW tracked. Perfect for long hours of cooling or pumping. http://www.wattsun.com/products/accutrak-hzla-tracker Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 12:46:58 -0400, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: Chris, We have used AER for trackers. We've had good success with them. https://www.allearthrenewables.com/product/allearth-solar-trackers Cheers, Dave From: Glenn Burt > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 12:13 PM To: chris at OasisMontana.com ; 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options I see a lot of AllEarth Renewables trackers here in the Northeast. Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 12:40 PM > wrote: Dear people: Now that Zomeworks is more-or-less down the tubes, what resources do you have for a residential tracking system? Wattsun's 'one size fits all' really doesn't (and I don't need a need a lecture of ROI for buying more modules versus a tracker). I'm just wondering if there are more options besides the utility grade models. We have a great pole mount supplier – but some folks want a tracker. I'm looking forward to your responses. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- -- -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Wed Oct 16 15:32:33 2019 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 19:32:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: <004101d582df$40b6b010$c2241030$@glbcc.com> References: , <6afa3df85cc75366c1014255634c7fdd@127.0.0.1> <004101d582df$40b6b010$c2241030$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Hello Glenn, Schneider Electric is already quoting pricing and delivery dates to distributors and taking orders on the RS Disconnect. We encourage installers to check with their Schneider Electric distributors for more information. The Quickstart Guide has now been added to the website, as well as certificates of compliance. Additional documentation will be added in the next week. Sandra Herrera Sandr.herrera at se.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 3:32 PM To: offgridsolar at sti.net; 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ Well, they have announced a new piece of equipment… At the moment it looks more like a dream than reality – no installation or use manuals available, no dealers I know have them… -Glenn From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2019 5:30 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems Schneider now has a rapid shutdown solution fro their Mppt's. Will be testing this here soon. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/mppt-disconnect-rs-for-nec-2017-compliance/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Oct 16 15:49:39 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:49:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options In-Reply-To: <010401d58453$d4bd1090$7e3731b0$@glbcc.com> References: <4c6605c12b2d740d7c170c2f68cac962@127.0.0.1> <010401d58453$d4bd1090$7e3731b0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <137e6dbc4f60aebf52785ec8f92c4345@127.0.0.1> Hi Glen, I am looking for a design that can use 6" pipe. I can supply the pipe but the design needs to have the correct solar square footage for 6" pipe loading. Thanks for your help with this. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:59:19 -0400, "Glenn Burt" wrote: Hi Dave, As far as I know, you don't supply the pipe, it is included with the unit, so no choice there. -Glenn FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar SENT: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 2:00 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Hi Glen, I too have had issues getting info from All Earth. Do you know if they have any models on 6" pipe" Thx. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT 209 813 0060 On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:49:16 -0400, Glenn Burt wrote: I live in VT, where they are manufactured, and have seen dozens of them installed across the state, as well as having inspected a number of them in New York State. -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ FROM: chris at OasisMontana.com [4] DATE: Wed, Oct 16, 2019 12:18 PM TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5]; CC: SUBJECT:Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Dear people: Well, I've found these folks: https://www.allearthrenewables.com/the-allearth-solar-tracker [6] ...but after several inquiries and contacting a couple of their alleged dealers, I still cannot get any pricing or availability information, or even if this is a real product. C'est la vie! Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 [7] or 4321 406-777-4309 [8] fax www.oasismontana.com [9] FROM: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > [10] SENT: Thursday, June 13, 2019 3:55 PM TO: chris at OasisMontana.com [11] SUBJECT: RE: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Hi Chris, If you find something please let us know. You are right, the old (no longer made) AZ 125 from Wattsun was the best. 2KW tracked on a 6 inch pole. Mix that in with a ground array and you have a really nice system. The AZ 225 is too heavy on the 8 inch pipe without a backhoe, especially on a hill. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 15:47:24 -0600, wrote: Yes, I know what Wattsun has to offer, but some customers are looking for something MUCH smaller. Thanks Dave! --Chris @ the sunny Oasis MT FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar SENT: Thursday, June 13, 2019 1:11 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Have you looked at the Wattsun HZLA? No ladders and with the right module about 5KW tracked. Perfect for long hours of cooling or pumping. http://www.wattsun.com/products/accutrak-hzla-tracker [15] DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 12:46:58 -0400, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Chris, We have used AER for trackers. We've had good success with them. https://www.allearthrenewables.com/product/allearth-solar-trackers [17] Cheers, Dave FROM: Glenn Burt SENT: Thursday, June 13, 2019 12:13 PM TO: chris at OasisMontana.com [19]; 'RE-wrenches' SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options I see a lot of AllEarth Renewables trackers here in the Northeast. DAVE TEDEYAN, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 [21] x121 f. 607.277.2119 [22] www.taitem.com [23] Solar * Sustainability * Energy * Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 12:40 PM wrote: Dear people: Now that Zomeworks is more-or-less down the tubes, what resources do you have for a residential tracking system? Wattsun's 'one size fits all' really doesn't (and I don't need a need a lecture of ROI for buying more modules versus a tracker). I'm just wondering if there are more options besides the utility grade models. We have a great pole mount supplier - but some folks want a tracker. I'm looking forward to your responses. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 [25] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [26] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [27] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [28] List rules "> -- -- -- -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:Glenn.burt at glbcc.com [4] mailto:chris at OasisMontana.com [5] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] https://www.allearthrenewables.com/the-allearth-solar-tracker [7] http://webmail.sti.net/tel:406-777-4309 [8] http://webmail.sti.net/tel:406-777-4309 [9] http://www.oasismontana.com [10] mailto:%3coffgridsolarstinet%3e%3coffgridsolarstinet%20a= [11] mailto:%20chris at OasisMontana.com [12] mailto:chris at OasisMontana.com [13] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] http://www.wattsun.com/products/accutrak-hzla-tracker [16] mailto:dtedeyan at taitem.com [17] https://www.allearthrenewables.com/product/allearth-solar-trackers [18] mailto:Glenn.burt at glbcc.com [19] mailto:chris at OasisMontana.com [20] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [21] http://webmail.sti.net/tel:607.277.1118 [22] http://webmail.sti.net/tel:607.277.2119 [23] http://www.taitem.com [24] mailto:chris at oasismontana.com [25] http://webmail.sti.net/tel:406-777-4309 [26] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [27] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [28] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [29] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [30] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Oct 16 15:48:44 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:48:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <012a01d5845a$b8d86490$2a892db0$@glbcc.com> I am surprised you can meet the required ballast needs for uplift consistently with the vagaries of simple rock, unless you are performing packaging and weighing of all replaced ballast. I also see that none of the SolarDock web links work – are they still in business? -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Al Frishman Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 12:42 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking Hey Wrenchers, I’m working on a ballast racking project that has a ballasted roof (river rocks on the roof). The roof can not support the addition of cement blocks so I am planning to use the river rocks that are already on the roof as the solar ballast. I have done this before using the SolarDock racking system as it fully encloses the ballast in a tray which keeps the rocks in place. On the project I did about 6 yrs ago I hired a bunch of laborers to manually bag the rocks and it was quite labor intensive. Has anyone done this using some kind of vacuum system? I am hoping there is a better way. Also - Any other racking suggestions other than SolarDock for this application? I appreciate the feedback! Al Frishman EvolvedSolar (917) 699-6641 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evolvedsolar at gmail.com Wed Oct 16 15:57:56 2019 From: evolvedsolar at gmail.com (Al Frishman) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:57:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking In-Reply-To: <012a01d5845a$b8d86490$2a892db0$@glbcc.com> References: <012a01d5845a$b8d86490$2a892db0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: I used potato sacks and weighed them. Took 3 full days with a crew of 5 to bag enough rock for the job. It would have taken at least that to clear the roof of the required river rock and then bring up concrete blocks so for that job I think it was a good tradeoff. Solar Dock is still in biz. They have an active twitter site but I guess they let their web site die. https://twitter.com/solardock Al Frishman EvolvedSolar (917) 699-6641 > On Oct 16, 2019, at 3:48 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > I am surprised you can meet the required ballast needs for uplift consistently with the vagaries of simple rock, unless you are performing packaging and weighing of all replaced ballast. > I also see that none of the SolarDock web links work – are they still in business? > > -Glenn > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Al Frishman > Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 12:42 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking > > Hey Wrenchers, > I’m working on a ballast racking project that has a ballasted roof (river rocks on the roof). The roof can not support the addition of cement blocks so I am planning to use the river rocks that are already on the roof as the solar ballast. I have done this before using the SolarDock racking system as it fully encloses the ballast in a tray which keeps the rocks in place. > > On the project I did about 6 yrs ago I hired a bunch of laborers to manually bag the rocks and it was quite labor intensive. Has anyone done this using some kind of vacuum system? I am hoping there is a better way. > > Also - Any other racking suggestions other than SolarDock for this application? > > I appreciate the feedback! > > Al Frishman > EvolvedSolar > (917) 699-6641 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at willpowerelect.com Wed Oct 16 16:45:31 2019 From: bruce at willpowerelect.com (bruce at willpowerelect.com) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 13:45:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options Message-ID: <20191016134531.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.d8693acd6f.wbe@email26.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Oct 16 17:13:49 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:13:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems In-Reply-To: References: , <6afa3df85cc75366c1014255634c7fdd@127.0.0.1> <004101d582df$40b6b010$c2241030$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Glenn I attached the quick-start for the Schneider rapid shutdown. This is new to the Schneider site since monday when I looked. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 19:32:33 +0000, Sandra Herrera wrote: Hello Glenn, Schneider Electric is already quoting pricing and delivery dates to distributors and taking orders on the RS Disconnect. We encourage installers to check with their Schneider Electric distributors for more information. The Quickstart Guide has now been added to the website, as well as certificates of compliance. Additional documentation will be added in the next week. Sandra Herrera Sandr.herrera at se.com FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Glenn Burt SENT: Monday, October 14, 2019 3:32 PM TO: offgridsolar at sti.net; 'RE-wrenches' SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ------------------------- Well, they have announced a new piece of equipment... At the moment it looks more like a dream than reality - no installation or use manuals available, no dealers I know have them... -Glenn FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar SENT: Wednesday, October 02, 2019 5:30 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems Schneider now has a rapid shutdown solution fro their Mppt's. Will be testing this here soon. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/mppt-disconnect-rs-for-nec-2017-compliance/ [5] DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT 209 813 0060 ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/mppt-disconnect-rs-for-nec-2017-compliance/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: RS.PNG Type: image/png Size: 102829 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 10:20:25 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 07:20:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options In-Reply-To: <20191016134531.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.d8693acd6f.wbe@email26.godaddy.com> References: <20191016134531.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.d8693acd6f.wbe@email26.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <4AC78E06-032A-4DA8-BDCD-5975F83716F2@gmail.com> Hi Bruce Can you share what they retail for? Jay > On Oct 16, 2019, at 8:52 PM, bruce at willpowerelect.com wrote: > >  > I've installed 1/2 dozen All Earth. Like them a lot. The only models available are 20) 72 cell or 24) 60 cell. We're fitting up to 7.9 kW on them now. They come only with their own mast and choice of poured base with anchor bolts or 5' post base with rebar in the bottom and bolt flange on top for the top mast. If I remember, 450 sf of silicon and 120 mph wind rating. They have a anemometer that tells it to table top at 30 mph wind. Have had no issues. > > Bruce Fiero-RMI > > P: 541.535.3965 > F: 541.512.0061 > E: bruce at willpowerelect.com > W: Willpower Electric, LLC > > CCB 191852 > Oregon Electrical Contractor C681 > NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38 > DUNS 191470363 > Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs > > > **This email may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or if it appears that you have received this email in error, please advise me immediately by reply email, keep the contents confidential, and immediately delete the message and any attachments from your system. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evolvedsolar at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 12:41:54 2019 From: evolvedsolar at gmail.com (Al Frishman) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 12:41:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking In-Reply-To: <012a01d5845a$b8d86490$2a892db0$@glbcc.com> References: <012a01d5845a$b8d86490$2a892db0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <012AEC29-E9B4-4A4B-A8F1-A4597E4BABC9@gmail.com> Has anyone used Renusol CS+ ballast racking? I found them online and there is a picture showing the trays being filled with roof rocks like I am considering. I am having trouble getting a hold of them. I see that there is a post in the archives from 2011 for an older version Renusol CS60. Anyone know of a contact or distributor for them? Thanks! Al Frishman EvolvedSolar (917) 699-6641 > On Oct 16, 2019, at 3:48 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > I am surprised you can meet the required ballast needs for uplift consistently with the vagaries of simple rock, unless you are performing packaging and weighing of all replaced ballast. > I also see that none of the SolarDock web links work – are they still in business? > > -Glenn > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Al Frishman > Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 12:42 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking > > Hey Wrenchers, > I’m working on a ballast racking project that has a ballasted roof (river rocks on the roof). The roof can not support the addition of cement blocks so I am planning to use the river rocks that are already on the roof as the solar ballast. I have done this before using the SolarDock racking system as it fully encloses the ballast in a tray which keeps the rocks in place. > > On the project I did about 6 yrs ago I hired a bunch of laborers to manually bag the rocks and it was quite labor intensive. Has anyone done this using some kind of vacuum system? I am hoping there is a better way. > > Also - Any other racking suggestions other than SolarDock for this application? > > I appreciate the feedback! > > Al Frishman > EvolvedSolar > (917) 699-6641 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Thu Oct 17 15:19:38 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 15:19:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection? Message-ID: <82da80b5-1121-ea08-0806-097a08f53f01@villagepowerdesign.com> Esteemed Wrenches, I am in need of changing out an existing 200 Amp service entrance in order to accommodate a bus capable of handling a a 200 Amp Solar backfeed (41 KW system) . PG&E is upgrading the transformer to handle the backfeed but when I proposed a Siemens SolarReady 400 Amp service entrance they couldn't approve it cause since the building is a shop - they classify it as commercial and require a panel that can handle CTs when there is a 400 Amp service involved. Anyone else faced with this have solutions?  What is the cheapest equipment I can provide to satisfy all requirements? We don't need to upgrade the existing 200 amp service entrance equipment for load purposes - only to meet the bus requirements of backfeed. Would it be cheaper and easier to use the existing (or new) 200 Amp residential panel - not call it a 400 Amp upgrade but simply add a 200 Amp Supply Side Connection?  Suggested equipment to do that in the most economical manner? Any help well appreciated! Jeff -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Oct 17 16:28:58 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 16:28:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection? In-Reply-To: <82da80b5-1121-ea08-0806-097a08f53f01@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <82da80b5-1121-ea08-0806-097a08f53f01@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <016401d58529$8324ad70$896e0850$@glbcc.com> Hi Jeff, Seems to me if allowed in your jurisdiction, you might be best served by installing a new 200A fused service disconnect ahead of the existing main service panel. Or even a 400A one to allow for additional work inside (CT’s), then perform a supply side connection in it. Some manufacturers of switchgear have an option for lugs that accept multiple conductors, so no piercing of conductors needs to happen. Good luck, Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 3:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection? Esteemed Wrenches, I am in need of changing out an existing 200 Amp service entrance in order to accommodate a bus capable of handling a a 200 Amp Solar backfeed (41 KW system) . PG&E is upgrading the transformer to handle the backfeed but when I proposed a Siemens SolarReady 400 Amp service entrance they couldn't approve it cause since the building is a shop - they classify it as commercial and require a panel that can handle CTs when there is a 400 Amp service involved. Anyone else faced with this have solutions? What is the cheapest equipment I can provide to satisfy all requirements? We don't need to upgrade the existing 200 amp service entrance equipment for load purposes - only to meet the bus requirements of backfeed. Would it be cheaper and easier to use the existing (or new) 200 Amp residential panel - not call it a 400 Amp upgrade but simply add a 200 Amp Supply Side Connection? Suggested equipment to do that in the most economical manner? Any help well appreciated! Jeff -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 17 18:38:23 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 15:38:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection? In-Reply-To: <016401d58529$8324ad70$896e0850$@glbcc.com> References: <016401d58529$8324ad70$896e0850$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <3D61196A-1582-48E4-A452-E8EB1DD7D6EA@gmail.com> What about installing a 200 amp breaker in the 400 amp buss box? We talk a lot about doing it for smaller boxes, is there a reason it won’t work here? Jay Peltz power > On Oct 17, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > >  > Hi Jeff, > > Seems to me if allowed in your jurisdiction, you might be best served by installing a new 200A fused service disconnect ahead of the existing main service panel. Or even a 400A one to allow for additional work inside (CT’s), then perform a supply side connection in it. Some manufacturers of switchgear have an option for lugs that accept multiple conductors, so no piercing of conductors needs to happen. > > Good luck, > Glenn > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater > Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 3:20 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection? > > Esteemed Wrenches, > > I am in need of changing out an existing 200 Amp service entrance in order to accommodate a bus capable of handling a a 200 Amp Solar backfeed (41 KW system) . > > PG&E is upgrading the transformer to handle the backfeed but when I proposed a Siemens SolarReady 400 Amp service entrance they couldn't approve it cause since the building is a shop - they classify it as commercial and require a panel that can handle CTs when there is a 400 Amp service involved. > > Anyone else faced with this have solutions? What is the cheapest equipment I can provide to satisfy all requirements? > > We don't need to upgrade the existing 200 amp service entrance equipment for load purposes - only to meet the bus requirements of backfeed. > > Would it be cheaper and easier to use the existing (or new) 200 Amp residential panel - not call it a 400 Amp upgrade but simply add a 200 Amp Supply Side Connection? Suggested equipment to do that in the most economical manner? > > Any help well appreciated! > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Oct 17 23:31:56 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 20:31:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Jinko Message-ID: <3e691678561669554a973f0fb8f85ed2@mail.gmail.com> Friends: In my 35 year career I have installed almost exclusively Arco panels (and of course the panels that came from that pedigree: Siemens, Shell and SolarWorld). I have installed a few system with Mission Solar as well. My goal has always been to use modules manufacture in the United States. I find that I cannot source SolarWorld or Mission Solar at this time. I am faced with a kind of scary transition to modules I am not familiar with. I am being offered Jinko MSE PERC 72 panels. These are purported to be manufactured in Florida. Can anyone speak to experience with this make/model of panels? Any other American made panels that anyone feels are of good quality? As always, my thanks to all of you for your communal wisdom. Sincerely, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Oct 18 10:48:32 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 07:48:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Jinko In-Reply-To: <3e691678561669554a973f0fb8f85ed2@mail.gmail.com> References: <3e691678561669554a973f0fb8f85ed2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William, I use panasonic on my trackers. Most wattage per square foot. Made in New York. Sunpower also but they now are sourced out of the US, I believe and they are harder to obtain. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 20:31:56 -0700, William Miller wrote: Friends: In my 35 year career I have installed almost exclusively Arco panels (and of course the panels that came from that pedigree: Siemens, Shell and SolarWorld). I have installed a few system with Mission Solar as well. My goal has always been to use modules manufacture in the United States. I find that I cannot source SolarWorld or Mission Solar at this time. I am faced with a kind of scary transition to modules I am not familiar with. I am being offered Jinko MSE PERC 72 panels. These are purported to be manufactured in Florida. Can anyone speak to experience with this make/model of panels? Any other American made panels that anyone feels are of good quality? As always, my thanks to all of you for your communal wisdom. Sincerely, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com [3] CA Lic. 773985 -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.millersolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Oct 18 14:28:18 2019 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 12:28:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Mate button failure follow-up Message-ID: Wrenches, I had asked here about the original Outback Mate's eventual failure of the buttons' responsiveness. Here's an update from Outback from about a month ago, in case others face the same issue: Allan: Sorry for the slow response; we lost a few agents and are struggling to catch up. Unfortunately we no longer have repair parts for that product. Usually, problems with rubber membrane keypads like that are not related to dirt or oxidation, something that can be cleaned, but rather from the carbon puck material on the membrane wearing out. I have had some luck in the past using conductive paint as a repair strategy. You can Google "repairing membrane keypads" for ideas and products. I will be in our repair facility in two weeks, I'll look around and see if there are some parts laying around that might be helpful.  If I find something I will contact you. Best regards, Mark Walters OutBack Power Technical Support Team In addition, I learned from from Wrenches and Outback that the original Mate is still available through normal distributors. -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex at blueskyenergyinc.com Fri Oct 18 16:04:11 2019 From: alex at blueskyenergyinc.com (Alex MeVay) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 13:04:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] trickle charger for 4 12V batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave, I'm interested in others' experience here, but personally, I'd skip the charger. If they are brought to full charge before storage and are in decent shape otherwise, they shouldn't have any trouble surviving winter storage. I've seen many sealed batteries die an untimely death due to electrolyte loss from trickle chargers. On the other side, I've many times stored stored vehicles for 3-8 months with batteries disconnected and no apparent ill effects (and enough charge remaining to start the car upon my return), save one battery that was already on the way out. The ideal scenario, in my mind, would be to charge the batteries about once a month. Alex MeVay Blue Sky Energy * http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com Genasun * http://www.genasun.com From dana at solarwork.com Fri Oct 18 17:51:55 2019 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 15:51:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] trickle charger for 4 12V batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006e01d585fe$436e09d0$ca4a1d70$@solarwork.com> I have sealed 12 vdc batteries in 2 Bimmers. First winter - Left full time on a BMW smart charger over the winter killed both. My mechanic confirmed this was a bad idea. Second winter - did a 24-30 hour tapered maintenance charge (same charger) every 5-8 weeks and they are still good shape after 5 years. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Alex MeVay Sent: Friday, October 18, 2019 2:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] trickle charger for 4 12V batteries Hi Dave, I'm interested in others' experience here, but personally, I'd skip the charger. If they are brought to full charge before storage and are in decent shape otherwise, they shouldn't have any trouble surviving winter storage. I've seen many sealed batteries die an untimely death due to electrolyte loss from trickle chargers. On the other side, I've many times stored stored vehicles for 3-8 months with batteries disconnected and no apparent ill effects (and enough charge remaining to start the car upon my return), save one battery that was already on the way out. The ideal scenario, in my mind, would be to charge the batteries about once a month. Alex MeVay Blue Sky Energy * http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com Genasun * http://www.genasun.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat Oct 19 08:39:30 2019 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 08:39:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] trickle charger for 4 12V batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The least expensive way and easiest way (not having to reconnect string) would be 4 inexpensive battery maintainers. Unless they Already have something like an Iota 48volt battery charger. John Blittersdorf On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 3:02 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > > If someone were to bring their set of 4 sealed LA batteries from an off > grid cabin into their house for the winter, I am recommending that they get > a trickle charger to keep them topped off for the ~6 months that they will > not be in use. > > Does anyone have recommendations for a product? And is it best to get 4 > separate 12V chargers, one 48V charger, or a single 12V charger and put > them all in parallel? Or am I just overthinking this? > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street > | > Ithaca, NY 14850 > > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Sat Oct 19 12:10:23 2019 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 09:10:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] trickle charger for 4 12V batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22D87FDF-2D0A-464D-AB51-47C4B8622684@gmail.com> https://www.iotaengineering.com/dls5413.htm Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Oct 19, 2019, at 5:39 AM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > >  > The least expensive way and easiest way (not having to reconnect string) would be 4 inexpensive battery maintainers. Unless they > Already have something like an Iota 48volt battery charger. > > John Blittersdorf > >> On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 3:02 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> If someone were to bring their set of 4 sealed LA batteries from an off grid cabin into their house for the winter, I am recommending that they get a trickle charger to keep them topped off for the ~6 months that they will not be in use. >> >> Does anyone have recommendations for a product? And is it best to get 4 separate 12V chargers, one 48V charger, or a single 12V charger and put them all in parallel? Or am I just overthinking this? >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> Dave Tedeyan, PE >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >> B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 12:12:03 2019 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 10:12:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tripping breaker Message-ID: Wrenches - I've got an Eaton HFD3090 90A breaker protecting a Solectria 50TL that's tripped twice in the past 5 days, after having no issues during the first 8 months of system production (including throughout the summer). Monitoring (inverter-direct and RG CTs) shows nothing unusual (all 3 phases <57A) and nothing to indicate a brief edge-of-cloud effect. I'm heading out today to IR the AC connections and expect to see a some color, but being as the site is somewhat remote wanted to check with the group on any other recommendations before leaving. I don't have a logging current meter but might pick up a spare breaker to swap in if all connections check out. Any other suggestions? Anyone ever had nuisance tripping issues with Eaton Series C breakers? Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Mon Oct 21 13:31:32 2019 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 13:31:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking In-Reply-To: <012AEC29-E9B4-4A4B-A8F1-A4597E4BABC9@gmail.com> References: <012a01d5845a$b8d86490$2a892db0$@glbcc.com> <012AEC29-E9B4-4A4B-A8F1-A4597E4BABC9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00e601d58835$615285a0$23f790e0$@mindspring.com> Al I believe they are history. Not sure if anyone has any product left. We did a project for a Marine base in Montgomery several years ago and they had those trays left over. Not sure who owns them now, will try and find out. Peter Giroux American Solar 678 525 0468 From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Al Frishman Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 12:42 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking Has anyone used Renusol CS+ ballast racking? I found them online and there is a picture showing the trays being filled with roof rocks like I am considering. I am having trouble getting a hold of them. I see that there is a post in the archives from 2011 for an older version Renusol CS60. Anyone know of a contact or distributor for them? Thanks! Al Frishman EvolvedSolar (917) 699-6641 On Oct 16, 2019, at 3:48 PM, Glenn Burt > wrote: I am surprised you can meet the required ballast needs for uplift consistently with the vagaries of simple rock, unless you are performing packaging and weighing of all replaced ballast. I also see that none of the SolarDock web links work – are they still in business? -Glenn From: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> On Behalf Of Al Frishman Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 12:42 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking Hey Wrenchers, I’m working on a ballast racking project that has a ballasted roof (river rocks on the roof). The roof can not support the addition of cement blocks so I am planning to use the river rocks that are already on the roof as the solar ballast. I have done this before using the SolarDock racking system as it fully encloses the ballast in a tray which keeps the rocks in place. On the project I did about 6 yrs ago I hired a bunch of laborers to manually bag the rocks and it was quite labor intensive. Has anyone done this using some kind of vacuum system? I am hoping there is a better way. Also - Any other racking suggestions other than SolarDock for this application? I appreciate the feedback! Al Frishman EvolvedSolar (917) 699-6641 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Oct 21 14:51:57 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 11:51:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection? In-Reply-To: References: <82da80b5-1121-ea08-0806-097a08f53f01@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <11d13789-2d52-3c2e-145a-07c2810fb2cb@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey August, Jay, and Burt and all, Thanks for the great input! and I'm sorry if I wasn't clearer. They are not asking for 400 Amps - I suggested it as that was the rating of the solar ready panel I specified. They are just saying IF it's 400 Amps then they need room for CTs cause it's a shop and hence residential equipment is not approved. So as August and Glenn indicate below - perhaps the easiest is a 200 AMP meter can with a Supply side line.  That does throw it back to my AJH to approve but that is pretty standardI would hope.  It also requires the variance letter from PG&E. I'm running 5 SB7.7s at 32 Amps each - so 160 AMPS of solar input. So If I supply a 200 A meter can with supply side lugs that I can feed into a 200 A fused disconnect and solar distribution panel and keep the existing 200 Amp panel box fed by the 200 Amp main breaker - any reason that won't work? OR does anyone know of a commercial 400 AMP solar ready meter base with 2 200 Amp feeds - one for solar and one for loads that does allow room for CTs? Thanks, Jeff August Goers wrote on 10/17/19 4:35 PM: > Hi Jeff - > > PG&E defines the service rating amperage based on the enclosure rating > of the first piece of equipment the service hits. See section 1.14 in > the Greenbook: > > https://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/mybusiness/customerservice/startstop/newconstruction/greenbook/servicerequirements/greenbook_manual_full.pdf > > > This might be why they insist that you need a 400 A service just > because you want a 400 A rated bus. The easy way around it is to > supply a 200 A rated meter socket and main disconnect, then feed a 400 > A sub panel. > > A meter/main like the Eaton MBEB200BTS might also work for you: > https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-200-Amp-BR-Type-Main-Breaker-Meter-Breaker-without-Distribution-EUSERC-MBEB200BTS/100555147 > > > August > Luminalt > > > Hi Jeff, > > Seems to me if allowed in your jurisdiction, you might be best served > by installing a new 200A fused service disconnect ahead of the > existing main service panel. Or even a 400A one to allow for > additional work inside (CT’s), then perform a supply side connection > in it. Some manufacturers of switchgear have an option for lugs that > accept multiple conductors, so no piercing of conductors needs to happen. > > Good luck, > > Glenn > On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 12:19 PM Jeff Clearwater > > > wrote: > > Esteemed Wrenches, > > I am in need of changing out an existing 200 Amp service entrance > in order to accommodate a bus capable of handling a a 200 Amp > Solar backfeed (41 KW system) . > > PG&E is upgrading the transformer to handle the backfeed but when > I proposed a Siemens SolarReady 400 Amp service entrance they > couldn't approve it cause since the building is a shop - they > classify it as commercial and require a panel that can handle CTs > when there is a 400 Amp service involved. > > Anyone else faced with this have solutions?  What is the cheapest > equipment I can provide to satisfy all requirements? > > We don't need to upgrade the existing 200 amp service entrance > equipment for load purposes - only to meet the bus requirements of > backfeed. > > Would it be cheaper and easier to use the existing (or new) 200 > Amp residential panel - not call it a 400 Amp upgrade but simply > add a 200 Amp Supply Side Connection?  Suggested equipment to do > that in the most economical manner? > > Any help well appreciated! > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Mon Oct 21 14:41:34 2019 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 18:41:34 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking In-Reply-To: <00e601d58835$615285a0$23f790e0$@mindspring.com> References: <012a01d5845a$b8d86490$2a892db0$@glbcc.com> <012AEC29-E9B4-4A4B-A8F1-A4597E4BABC9@gmail.com> <00e601d58835$615285a0$23f790e0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Maybe RBI will know, Renusol was acquired by them. https://www.power-technology.com/news/newsrbi-solar-signs-agreement-to-acquire-renusol-4284595/ David From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of pgiroux at mindspring.com Sent: Monday, October 21, 2019 1:32 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking Al I believe they are history. Not sure if anyone has any product left. We did a project for a Marine base in Montgomery several years ago and they had those trays left over. Not sure who owns them now, will try and find out. Peter Giroux American Solar 678 525 0468 From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Al Frishman Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 12:42 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking Has anyone used Renusol CS+ ballast racking? I found them online and there is a picture showing the trays being filled with roof rocks like I am considering. I am having trouble getting a hold of them. I see that there is a post in the archives from 2011 for an older version Renusol CS60. Anyone know of a contact or distributor for them? Thanks! Al Frishman EvolvedSolar (917) 699-6641 On Oct 16, 2019, at 3:48 PM, Glenn Burt > wrote: I am surprised you can meet the required ballast needs for uplift consistently with the vagaries of simple rock, unless you are performing packaging and weighing of all replaced ballast. I also see that none of the SolarDock web links work – are they still in business? -Glenn From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Al Frishman Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 12:42 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking Hey Wrenchers, I’m working on a ballast racking project that has a ballasted roof (river rocks on the roof). The roof can not support the addition of cement blocks so I am planning to use the river rocks that are already on the roof as the solar ballast. I have done this before using the SolarDock racking system as it fully encloses the ballast in a tray which keeps the rocks in place. On the project I did about 6 yrs ago I hired a bunch of laborers to manually bag the rocks and it was quite labor intensive. Has anyone done this using some kind of vacuum system? I am hoping there is a better way. Also - Any other racking suggestions other than SolarDock for this application? I appreciate the feedback! Al Frishman EvolvedSolar (917) 699-6641 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evolvedsolar at gmail.com Mon Oct 21 19:33:42 2019 From: evolvedsolar at gmail.com (Al Frishman) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 19:33:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking In-Reply-To: References: <012a01d5845a$b8d86490$2a892db0$@glbcc.com> <012AEC29-E9B4-4A4B-A8F1-A4597E4BABC9@gmail.com> <00e601d58835$615285a0$23f790e0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <5C0F7C7A-C610-43EC-9F75-9B41CE29EB2C@gmail.com> David you are correct. I did receive the following email directly from a rep at RBI with some helpful details. Definitely not a solution for the roof application I was thinking to use it on. Renusol, the company that made the CS60 system was bought by RBI Solar Inc. based in Cincinnati a few years back. Renusol Europe still exists, but is not part of RBI Solar anymore; you may find active web results for CS60+ product lines over in europe. In the USA market, Renusol America does business as RBI Solar. The CS60 system still exists in the USA, as does the 72 cell version, the GS72, but neither is available for use on rooftop applications. The polymers used in the plastic tubs did not meet the construction requirements for the UL 2703 safety standard for racking regarding fire performance of racking systems on buildings. These systems are still available by special order for ground mounted arrays, and are most commonly used for landfills, brownfields and small arrays or training arrays. Al Frishman EvolvedSolar (917) 699-6641 > On Oct 21, 2019, at 2:41 PM, David Buckner wrote: > > Maybe RBI will know, Renusol was acquired by them. https://www.power-technology.com/news/newsrbi-solar-signs-agreement-to-acquire-renusol-4284595/ > > David > > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of pgiroux at mindspring.com > Sent: Monday, October 21, 2019 1:32 PM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking > > Al > > I believe they are history. Not sure if anyone has any product left. We did a project for a Marine base in Montgomery several years ago and they had those trays left over. Not sure who owns them now, will try and find out. > > Peter Giroux > American Solar > 678 525 0468 > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Al Frishman > Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 12:42 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking > > Has anyone used Renusol CS+ ballast racking? I found them online and there is a picture showing the trays being filled with roof rocks like I am considering. I am having trouble getting a hold of them. I see that there is a post in the archives from 2011 for an older version Renusol CS60. Anyone know of a contact or distributor for them? > > > Thanks! > > > Al Frishman > EvolvedSolar > (917) 699-6641 > > > On Oct 16, 2019, at 3:48 PM, Glenn Burt > wrote: > > I am surprised you can meet the required ballast needs for uplift consistently with the vagaries of simple rock, unless you are performing packaging and weighing of all replaced ballast. > I also see that none of the SolarDock web links work – are they still in business? > > -Glenn > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Al Frishman > Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 12:42 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Use roof rock as Ballast for Solar Racking > > Hey Wrenchers, > I’m working on a ballast racking project that has a ballasted roof (river rocks on the roof). The roof can not support the addition of cement blocks so I am planning to use the river rocks that are already on the roof as the solar ballast. I have done this before using the SolarDock racking system as it fully encloses the ballast in a tray which keeps the rocks in place. > > On the project I did about 6 yrs ago I hired a bunch of laborers to manually bag the rocks and it was quite labor intensive. Has anyone done this using some kind of vacuum system? I am hoping there is a better way. > > Also - Any other racking suggestions other than SolarDock for this application? > > I appreciate the feedback! > > Al Frishman > EvolvedSolar > (917) 699-6641 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Tue Oct 22 12:07:45 2019 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 12:07:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600Vdc Transfer Switch Between Charge Controller and GT Inverter Message-ID: Hi All, I've been asked to review a GT-BBUS that was installed with a DC to AC ratio of 2.14. The system owner is frustrated b/c his 9.2-kW of PV is bottlenecked by an 80A MPPT (~4,300W). The inverter is a XW-5548 so there is a second bottleneck to overcome even if an additional CC were added. My inclination is to install a GT inverter for half the array and make a separate point of connection. I have considered adding a transfer switch on the PV conductors to allow the owner to toggle between this new GT inverter and the existing CC. I thought that having the option would be of benefit during extended outages with little sun. I'd be curious to know if anyone has had to solve a problem similar to this one and if they were able to find a suitable switch. To-date, I have not located a good transfer switch or breaker assembly with handle-tie etc... Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Oct 22 12:28:29 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 09:28:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600Vdc Transfer Switch Between Charge Controller and GT Inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <949355559bcf134916bb584b56fd875f@127.0.0.1> Matt, quite a few issues and the GT inv. idea is where I would go also. XW5548 can only sell 20A @240vac. I would just set up a manual A/B switch on the grid inverter solar input to be able to switch this to the mppt-80-600 for outages and bad solar days. I can dig up the one I used. In this app we just added the second array for winter and let the mppt current limit when it was cold to avoid stressing it offgrid. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 12:07:45 -0400, Matt Sherald wrote: Hi All, I've been asked to review a GT-BBUS that was installed with a DC to AC ratio of 2.14. The system owner is frustrated b/c his 9.2-kW of PV is bottlenecked by an 80A MPPT (~4,300W). The inverter is a XW-5548 so there is a second bottleneck to overcome even if an additional CC were added. My inclination is to install a GT inverter for half the array and make a separate point of connection. I have considered adding a transfer switch on the PV conductors to allow the owner to toggle between this new GT inverter and the existing CC. I thought that having the option would be of benefit during extended outages with little sun. I'd be curious to know if anyone has had to solve a problem similar to this one and if they were able to find a suitable switch. To-date, I have not located a good transfer switch or breaker assembly with handle-tie etc... Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(R) 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com [3] www.getpimby.com [4] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.getpimby.blogspot.com [4] http://www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 12:17:42 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 09:17:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Meca solar tracker Message-ID: Does anyone have a manual or have experience with a Meca 1 axis tracker? So far no answer from Meca in California. I’m helping with a site that has one, and it appears to rotate East too early in the day. It appears to be a time based tracker. Thx Jay From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Tue Oct 22 17:24:03 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 14:24:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best way to Supply Side connect from a 200 Amp Service Entrance? Message-ID: <2b4e3ef8-3ad1-6cf3-6721-2d39ab40d288@villagepowerdesign.com> Esteemed Wrenches, So from my previous post and research - I think I'm down to the simple question of what is the best way to do a supply side connection in PG&E territory for a 200 AMP PV feed into a 200 Amp Service. PG&E won't allow PV circuit wiring to enter their sealed sections. So how about a simple J-Box like this after a standard 200 Amp Meter Socket box? https://www.ideadigitalcontent.com/files/11028/784572230569_SS.pdf Then it simply branches to a fusible 200 AMP disconnect for the PV side and the other to a standard 200 Amp panel box for the house loads. I'm feeding 5 SB7.7s so 160 Amps of rated PV x 1.25 = 200 Amps.  right at the limit but fully in code and PG&E compliance from what I can tell. Anything I'm not thinking of?  Easier way to do that "T" connection? Existing equipment for 2 200 Amp Breakers off of a single 200 Amp service? Thanks! Jeff Jeff Clearwater wrote on 10/21/19 11:51 AM: > Hey August, Jay, and Burt and all, > > Thanks for the great input! and I'm sorry if I wasn't clearer. > > They are not asking for 400 Amps - I suggested it as that was the > rating of the solar ready panel I specified. > > They are just saying IF it's 400 Amps then they need room for CTs > cause it's a shop and hence residential equipment is not approved. > > So as August and Glenn indicate below - perhaps the easiest is a 200 > AMP meter can with a Supply side line.  That does throw it back to my > AJH to approve but that is pretty standardI would hope.  It also > requires the variance letter from PG&E. > > I'm running 5 SB7.7s at 32 Amps each - so 160 AMPS of solar input. > > So If I supply a 200 A meter can with supply side lugs that I can feed > into a 200 A fused disconnect and solar distribution panel and keep > the existing 200 Amp panel box fed by the 200 Amp main breaker - any > reason that won't work? > > OR does anyone know of a commercial 400 AMP solar ready meter base > with 2 200 Amp feeds - one for solar and one for loads that does allow > room for CTs? > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > August Goers wrote on 10/17/19 4:35 PM: > >> Hi Jeff - >> >> PG&E defines the service rating amperage based on the enclosure >> rating of the first piece of equipment the service hits. See section >> 1.14 in the Greenbook: >> >> https://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/mybusiness/customerservice/startstop/newconstruction/greenbook/servicerequirements/greenbook_manual_full.pdf >> >> >> This might be why they insist that you need a 400 A service just >> because you want a 400 A rated bus. The easy way around it is to >> supply a 200 A rated meter socket and main disconnect, then feed a >> 400 A sub panel. >> >> A meter/main like the Eaton MBEB200BTS might also work for you: >> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-200-Amp-BR-Type-Main-Breaker-Meter-Breaker-without-Distribution-EUSERC-MBEB200BTS/100555147 >> >> >> August >> Luminalt >> >> >> Hi Jeff, >> >> Seems to me if allowed in your jurisdiction, you might be best served >> by installing a new 200A fused service disconnect ahead of the >> existing main service panel. Or even a 400A one to allow for >> additional work inside (CT’s), then perform a supply side connection >> in it. Some manufacturers of switchgear have an option for lugs that >> accept multiple conductors, so no piercing of conductors needs to happen. >> >> Good luck, >> >> Glenn >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 12:19 PM Jeff Clearwater >> > >> wrote: >> >> Esteemed Wrenches, >> >> I am in need of changing out an existing 200 Amp service entrance >> in order to accommodate a bus capable of handling a a 200 Amp >> Solar backfeed (41 KW system) . >> >> PG&E is upgrading the transformer to handle the backfeed but when >> I proposed a Siemens SolarReady 400 Amp service entrance they >> couldn't approve it cause since the building is a shop - they >> classify it as commercial and require a panel that can handle CTs >> when there is a 400 Amp service involved. >> >> Anyone else faced with this have solutions?  What is the cheapest >> equipment I can provide to satisfy all requirements? >> >> We don't need to upgrade the existing 200 amp service entrance >> equipment for load purposes - only to meet the bus requirements >> of backfeed. >> >> Would it be cheaper and easier to use the existing (or new) 200 >> Amp residential panel - not call it a 400 Amp upgrade but simply >> add a 200 Amp Supply Side Connection?  Suggested equipment to do >> that in the most economical manner? >> >> Any help well appreciated! >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Oct 23 10:35:49 2019 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 07:35:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection? In-Reply-To: References: <82da80b5-1121-ea08-0806-097a08f53f01@villagepowerdesign.com> <11d13789-2d52-3c2e-145a-07c2810fb2cb@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Replying on list, I had mistakenly only replied to Jeff off list. -August On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 6:26 AM August Goers wrote: > Hi Jeff - I think technically you can try a supply side connection per NEC > 705.12(A) if you can find equipment with provisions to both feed your > existing service and then the solar. Sometimes a splice box is required. > > Without knowing the configuration of the existing equipment, it's hard to > understand if that will be easier overall compared to just going the route > where you supply a 200 A rated meter socket (maybe you already have this?) > and 200 A main breaker panel (with no loads) and then a 400 A bused panel > to connect both your loads and the PV system. > > August > > > > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 11:52 AM Jeff Clearwater < > jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > >> Hey August, Jay, and Burt and all, >> >> Thanks for the great input! and I'm sorry if I wasn't clearer. >> >> They are not asking for 400 Amps - I suggested it as that was the rating >> of the solar ready panel I specified. >> >> They are just saying IF it's 400 Amps then they need room for CTs cause >> it's a shop and hence residential equipment is not approved. >> >> So as August and Glenn indicate below - perhaps the easiest is a 200 AMP >> meter can with a Supply side line. That does throw it back to my AJH to >> approve but that is pretty standardI would hope. It also requires the >> variance letter from PG&E. >> >> I'm running 5 SB7.7s at 32 Amps each - so 160 AMPS of solar input. >> >> So If I supply a 200 A meter can with supply side lugs that I can feed >> into a 200 A fused disconnect and solar distribution panel and keep the >> existing 200 Amp panel box fed by the 200 Amp main breaker - any reason >> that won't work? >> >> OR does anyone know of a commercial 400 AMP solar ready meter base with 2 >> 200 Amp feeds - one for solar and one for loads that does allow room for >> CTs? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jeff >> >> August Goers wrote on 10/17/19 4:35 PM: >> >> Hi Jeff - >> >> PG&E defines the service rating amperage based on the enclosure rating of >> the first piece of equipment the service hits. See section 1.14 in the >> Greenbook: >> >> >> https://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/mybusiness/customerservice/startstop/newconstruction/greenbook/servicerequirements/greenbook_manual_full.pdf >> >> >> This might be why they insist that you need a 400 A service just because >> you want a 400 A rated bus. The easy way around it is to supply a 200 A >> rated meter socket and main disconnect, then feed a 400 A sub panel. >> >> A meter/main like the Eaton MBEB200BTS might also work for you: >> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-200-Amp-BR-Type-Main-Breaker-Meter-Breaker-without-Distribution-EUSERC-MBEB200BTS/100555147 >> >> >> August >> Luminalt >> >> >> Hi Jeff, >> >> >> >> Seems to me if allowed in your jurisdiction, you might be best served by >> installing a new 200A fused service disconnect ahead of the existing main >> service panel. Or even a 400A one to allow for additional work inside >> (CT’s), then perform a supply side connection in it. Some manufacturers of >> switchgear have an option for lugs that accept multiple conductors, so no >> piercing of conductors needs to happen. >> >> >> >> Good luck, >> Glenn >> >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 12:19 PM Jeff Clearwater < >> jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: >> >>> Esteemed Wrenches, >>> >>> I am in need of changing out an existing 200 Amp service entrance in >>> order to accommodate a bus capable of handling a a 200 Amp Solar backfeed >>> (41 KW system) . >>> >>> PG&E is upgrading the transformer to handle the backfeed but when I >>> proposed a Siemens SolarReady 400 Amp service entrance they couldn't >>> approve it cause since the building is a shop - they classify it as >>> commercial and require a panel that can handle CTs when there is a 400 Amp >>> service involved. >>> >>> Anyone else faced with this have solutions? What is the cheapest >>> equipment I can provide to satisfy all requirements? >>> >>> We don't need to upgrade the existing 200 amp service entrance equipment >>> for load purposes - only to meet the bus requirements of backfeed. >>> >>> Would it be cheaper and easier to use the existing (or new) 200 Amp >>> residential panel - not call it a 400 Amp upgrade but simply add a 200 Amp >>> Supply Side Connection? Suggested equipment to do that in the most >>> economical manner? >>> >>> Any help well appreciated! >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> linkedin >>> www.villagepowerdesign.com >>> cell - 413-559-9763 >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Oct 23 11:29:46 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 08:29:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection? In-Reply-To: References: <82da80b5-1121-ea08-0806-097a08f53f01@villagepowerdesign.com> <11d13789-2d52-3c2e-145a-07c2810fb2cb@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Thanks August, Yes so August has illuminated an alternative to the J-box supply side tap approach that uses standard equipment and a load side connection but still satisfies it being considered a 200 A connection by PG&E - hence no need for a service upgrade and CTs for commercial accounts as required for 400 Amp services. > PG&E defines the service rating amperage based on the enclosure rating > of the first piece of equipment the service hits. See section 1.14 in > the Greenbook: > > https://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/mybusiness/customerservice/startstop/newconstruction/greenbook/servicerequirements/greenbook_manual_full.pdf > Approach 1: Supply Side:  200 A Meter Socket > J-box (such as this ) > 200A fused Disconnect for Solar & > 200A Panel Board for Loads Approach 2:  Load Side:  200 A Meter Socket > 200 A Main Breaker > 400 Rated Bus with 200 A Main and PV on load side. Both accomplish not upgrading the service and not requiring CTs.  They both are fairly inexpensive with the right equipment. One thing I'm not clear on is the AIC rating neeeded for the equipment in either scenario as PG&E is upgrading to a 50KVA transformer. Will the 10,000 AIC rating of the J-box I listed fly? Others? Any other code considerations that might sway me before I ask my AHJ and PG&E which they prefer? Thanks! Jeff August Goers wrote on 10/23/19 7:35 AM: > Replying on list, I had mistakenly only replied to Jeff off list. -August > > On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 6:26 AM August Goers > wrote: > > Hi Jeff - I think technically you can try a supply side connection > per NEC 705.12(A) if you can find equipment with provisions to > both feed your existing service and then the solar. Sometimes a > splice box is required. > > Without knowing the configuration of the existing equipment, it's > hard to understand if that will be easier overall compared to just > going the route where you supply a 200 A rated meter socket (maybe > you already have this?) and 200 A main breaker panel (with no > loads) and then a 400 A bused panel to connect both your loads and > the PV system. > > August > > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 11:52 AM Jeff Clearwater > > wrote: > > Hey August, Jay, and Burt and all, > > Thanks for the great input! and I'm sorry if I wasn't clearer. > > They are not asking for 400 Amps - I suggested it as that was > the rating of the solar ready panel I specified. > > They are just saying IF it's 400 Amps then they need room for > CTs cause it's a shop and hence residential equipment is not > approved. > > So as August and Glenn indicate below - perhaps the easiest is > a 200 AMP meter can with a Supply side line.  That does throw > it back to my AJH to approve but that is pretty standardI > would hope.  It also requires the variance letter from PG&E. > > I'm running 5 SB7.7s at 32 Amps each - so 160 AMPS of solar input. > > So If I supply a 200 A meter can with supply side lugs that I > can feed into a 200 A fused disconnect and solar distribution > panel and keep the existing 200 Amp panel box fed by the 200 > Amp main breaker - any reason that won't work? > > OR does anyone know of a commercial 400 AMP solar ready meter > base with 2 200 Amp feeds - one for solar and one for loads > that does allow room for CTs? > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > August Goers wrote on 10/17/19 4:35 PM: > >> Hi Jeff - >> >> PG&E defines the service rating amperage based on the >> enclosure rating of the first piece of equipment the service >> hits. See section 1.14 in the Greenbook: >> >> https://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/mybusiness/customerservice/startstop/newconstruction/greenbook/servicerequirements/greenbook_manual_full.pdf >> >> >> This might be why they insist that you need a 400 A service >> just because you want a 400 A rated bus. The easy way around >> it is to supply a 200 A rated meter socket and main >> disconnect, then feed a 400 A sub panel. >> >> A meter/main like the Eaton MBEB200BTS might also work for >> you: >> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-200-Amp-BR-Type-Main-Breaker-Meter-Breaker-without-Distribution-EUSERC-MBEB200BTS/100555147 >> >> >> August >> Luminalt >> >> >> Hi Jeff, >> >> Seems to me if allowed in your jurisdiction, you might be >> best served by installing a new 200A fused service disconnect >> ahead of the existing main service panel. Or even a 400A one >> to allow for additional work inside (CT’s), then perform a >> supply side connection in it. Some manufacturers of >> switchgear have an option for lugs that accept multiple >> conductors, so no piercing of conductors needs to happen. >> >> Good luck, >> >> Glenn >> On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 12:19 PM Jeff Clearwater >> > > wrote: >> >> Esteemed Wrenches, >> >> I am in need of changing out an existing 200 Amp service >> entrance in order to accommodate a bus capable of >> handling a a 200 Amp Solar backfeed (41 KW system) . >> >> PG&E is upgrading the transformer to handle the backfeed >> but when I proposed a Siemens SolarReady 400 Amp service >> entrance they couldn't approve it cause since the >> building is a shop - they classify it as commercial and >> require a panel that can handle CTs when there is a 400 >> Amp service involved. >> >> Anyone else faced with this have solutions?  What is the >> cheapest equipment I can provide to satisfy all requirements? >> >> We don't need to upgrade the existing 200 amp service >> entrance equipment for load purposes - only to meet the >> bus requirements of backfeed. >> >> Would it be cheaper and easier to use the existing (or >> new) 200 Amp residential panel - not call it a 400 Amp >> upgrade but simply add a 200 Amp Supply Side Connection?  >> Suggested equipment to do that in the most economical manner? >> >> Any help well appreciated! >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Oct 23 11:33:06 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:33:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600Vdc Transfer Switch Between Charge Controller and GT Inverter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think Morningstar has a product that would work. Please let me know how the project goes. Thank you, Drake Athens Electric ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 12:07:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600Vdc Transfer Switch Between Charge Controller and GT Inverter Hi All, I've been asked to review a GT-BBUS that was installed with a DC to AC ratio of 2.14.  The system owner is frustrated b/c his 9.2-kW of PV  is bottlenecked by an 80A MPPT (~4,300W).  The inverter is a XW-5548 so there is a second bottleneck to overcome even if an additional CC were added. My inclination is to install a GT inverter for half the array and make a separate point of connection.  I have considered adding a transfer switch on the PV conductors to allow the owner to toggle between this new GT inverter and the existing CC.  I thought that having the option would be of benefit during extended outages with little sun. I'd be curious to know if anyone has had to solve a problem similar to this one and if they were able to find a suitable switch.  To-date, I have not located a good transfer switch or breaker assembly with handle-tie etc...  Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com [1] www.getpimby.com [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.getpimby.blogspot.com [2] http://www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Oct 23 12:11:21 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 09:11:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection? In-Reply-To: <3D61196A-1582-48E4-A452-E8EB1DD7D6EA@gmail.com> References: <016401d58529$8324ad70$896e0850$@glbcc.com> <3D61196A-1582-48E4-A452-E8EB1DD7D6EA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <27b0af90-9a76-13f5-088e-191a49c7446b@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey Jay, Yes so you were on to it - but with the addition of having that downstream of a separate 200 AMP meter box and 200 A Main that works :) Otherwise PG&E would call it a 400 Amp service which for commercial accounts means having to have CTs for the metering. Thanks!, Jeff Jay wrote on 10/17/19 3:38 PM: > What about installing a 200 amp breaker in the 400 amp buss box? > > We talk a lot about doing it for smaller boxes, is there a reason it > won’t work here? > > Jay > Peltz power > >> On Oct 17, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: >> >>  >> >> Hi Jeff, >> >> Seems to me if allowed in your jurisdiction, you might be best served >> by installing a new 200A fused service disconnect ahead of the >> existing main service panel. Or even a 400A one to allow for >> additional work inside (CT’s), then perform a supply side connection >> in it. Some manufacturers of switchgear have an option for lugs that >> accept multiple conductors, so no piercing of conductors needs to happen. >> >> Good luck, >> >> Glenn >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater >> *Sent:* Thursday, October 17, 2019 3:20 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply >> Side connection? >> >> Esteemed Wrenches, >> >> I am in need of changing out an existing 200 Amp service entrance in >> order to accommodate a bus capable of handling a a 200 Amp Solar >> backfeed (41 KW system) . >> >> PG&E is upgrading the transformer to handle the backfeed but when I >> proposed a Siemens SolarReady 400 Amp service entrance they couldn't >> approve it cause since the building is a shop - they classify it as >> commercial and require a panel that can handle CTs when there is a >> 400 Amp service involved. >> >> Anyone else faced with this have solutions?  What is the cheapest >> equipment I can provide to satisfy all requirements? >> >> We don't need to upgrade the existing 200 amp service entrance >> equipment for load purposes - only to meet the bus requirements of >> backfeed. >> >> Would it be cheaper and easier to use the existing (or new) 200 Amp >> residential panel - not call it a 400 Amp upgrade but simply add a >> 200 Amp Supply Side Connection? Suggested equipment to do that in the >> most economical manner? >> >> Any help well appreciated! >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> linkedin >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> cell - 413-559-9763 >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Oct 23 12:40:01 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 09:40:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600Vdc Transfer Switch Between Charge Controller and GT Inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Matt, See Morningstar's TS-MPPT-60-600V-48-DB-TR https://www.morningstarcorp.com/products/tristar-mppt-600v/ Hope that helps! Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Matt Sherald wrote on 10/22/19 9:07 AM: > Hi All, > > I've been asked to review a GT-BBUS that was installed with a DC to AC > ratio of 2.14. The system owner is frustrated b/c his 9.2-kW of PV  is > bottlenecked by an 80A MPPT (~4,300W).  The inverter is a XW-5548 so > there is a second bottleneck to overcome even if an additional CC were > added. > > My inclination is to install a GT inverter for half the array and make > a separate point of connection.  I have considered adding a transfer > switch on the PV conductors to allow the owner to toggle between this > new GT inverter and the existing CC.  I thought that having the option > would be of benefit during extended outages with little sun. > > I'd be curious to know if anyone has had to solve a problem similar to > this one and if they were able to find a suitable switch.  To-date, I > have not located a good transfer switch or breaker assembly with > handle-tie etc...  Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > 304-704-5943 > > www.getpimby.blogspot.com > www.getpimby.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Oct 23 14:46:58 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:46:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600Vdc Transfer Switch Between Charge Controller and GT Inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The real limit here is the sell on xw5548 and not the charge controller as the op knows. Not hard to add a second mppt of any kind. Matt's idea of a grid tie inverter is a good choice or add a second xw/mppt and keep all the comms on the same xanbus. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 09:40:01 -0700, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Matt, See Morningstar's TS-MPPT-60-600V-48-DB-TR https://www.morningstarcorp.com/products/tristar-mppt-600v/ [3] Hope that helps! Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin [4] www.villagepowerdesign.com [5] cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Matt Sherald wrote on 10/22/19 9:07 AM: Hi All, I've been asked to review a GT-BBUS that was installed with a DC to AC ratio of 2.14. The system owner is frustrated b/c his 9.2-kW of PV is bottlenecked by an 80A MPPT (~4,300W). The inverter is a XW-5548 so there is a second bottleneck to overcome even if an additional CC were added. My inclination is to install a GT inverter for half the array and make a separate point of connection. I have considered adding a transfer switch on the PV conductors to allow the owner to toggle between this new GT inverter and the existing CC. I thought that having the option would be of benefit during extended outages with little sun. I'd be curious to know if anyone has had to solve a problem similar to this one and if they were able to find a suitable switch. To-date, I have not located a good transfer switch or breaker assembly with handle-tie etc... Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(R) 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com [6] www.getpimby.com [7] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] List rules font-size: inherit; padding: 0px; color: #505050;">413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://www.morningstarcorp.com/products/tristar-mppt-600v/ [4] https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/ [5] http://www.villagepowerdesign.com [6] http://www.getpimby.blogspot.com [7] http://www.getpimby.com [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-clearwater-0622a312/ [14] http://www.villagepowerdesign.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Oct 23 13:59:40 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 10:59:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Ready Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection? Message-ID: <7c0fecfab8b5b2b7753fe67b2bb13ded@mail.gmail.com> Jeff: Would a class 320, solar-ready, meter/main combo be approved for this commercial application? Here is a link to a product we have used in residential applications. It offers through-the-jaws metering at 400 amps peak, 320 amps continuous. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2019 9:11 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection? Hey Jay, Yes so you were on to it - but with the addition of having that downstream of a separate 200 AMP meter box and 200 A Main that works :) Otherwise PG&E would call it a 400 Amp service which for commercial accounts means having to have CTs for the metering. Thanks!, Jeff Jay wrote on 10/17/19 3:38 PM: What about installing a 200 amp breaker in the 400 amp buss box? We talk a lot about doing it for smaller boxes, is there a reason it won’t work here? Jay Peltz power On Oct 17, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Glenn Burt wrote:  Hi Jeff, Seems to me if allowed in your jurisdiction, you might be best served by installing a new 200A fused service disconnect ahead of the existing main service panel. Or even a 400A one to allow for additional work inside (CT’s), then perform a supply side connection in it. Some manufacturers of switchgear have an option for lugs that accept multiple conductors, so no piercing of conductors needs to happen. Good luck, Glenn *From:* RE-wrenches *On Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater *Sent:* Thursday, October 17, 2019 3:20 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection? Esteemed Wrenches, I am in need of changing out an existing 200 Amp service entrance in order to accommodate a bus capable of handling a a 200 Amp Solar backfeed (41 KW system) . PG&E is upgrading the transformer to handle the backfeed but when I proposed a Siemens SolarReady 400 Amp service entrance they couldn't approve it cause since the building is a shop - they classify it as commercial and require a panel that can handle CTs when there is a 400 Amp service involved. Anyone else faced with this have solutions? What is the cheapest equipment I can provide to satisfy all requirements? We don't need to upgrade the existing 200 amp service entrance equipment for load purposes - only to meet the bus requirements of backfeed. Would it be cheaper and easier to use the existing (or new) 200 Amp residential panel - not call it a 400 Amp upgrade but simply add a 200 Amp Supply Side Connection? Suggested equipment to do that in the most economical manner? Any help well appreciated! Jeff -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Oct 23 18:04:35 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:04:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Ready Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection? In-Reply-To: <7c0fecfab8b5b2b7753fe67b2bb13ded@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c0fecfab8b5b2b7753fe67b2bb13ded@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <62B05298-00DD-408A-AD56-1254508B7C15@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey William, That exact unit is actually where I started this journey but PG&E will not accept that Solarready residential unit because it’s a commercial account and anything over 200 A in a commercial account requires a CT cabinet. So to avoid CTs we need to separate out the 200 amp meter socket. I could feed that unit with 200 Amos after a 200 A Meter\Main but the combined cost would be high. Best, Jeff Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 23, 2019, at 10:59 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Jeff: > > Would a class 320, solar-ready, meter/main combo be approved for this commercial application? Here is a link to a product we have used in residential applications. It offers through-the-jaws metering at 400 amps peak, 320 amps continuous. > > William > > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 9:11 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection? > > Hey Jay, > > Yes so you were on to it - but with the addition of having that downstream of a separate 200 AMP meter box and 200 A Main that works :) Otherwise PG&E would call it a 400 Amp service which for commercial accounts means having to have CTs for the metering. > > Thanks!, > > Jeff > > Jay wrote on 10/17/19 3:38 PM: > > > What about installing a 200 amp breaker in the 400 amp buss box? > > We talk a lot about doing it for smaller boxes, is there a reason it won’t work here? > > Jay > Peltz power > > > On Oct 17, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > >  > Hi Jeff, > > Seems to me if allowed in your jurisdiction, you might be best served by installing a new 200A fused service disconnect ahead of the existing main service panel. Or even a 400A one to allow for additional work inside (CT’s), then perform a supply side connection in it. Some manufacturers of switchgear have an option for lugs that accept multiple conductors, so no piercing of conductors needs to happen. > > Good luck, > Glenn > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater > Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 3:20 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection? > > Esteemed Wrenches, > > I am in need of changing out an existing 200 Amp service entrance in order to accommodate a bus capable of handling a a 200 Amp Solar backfeed (41 KW system) . > > PG&E is upgrading the transformer to handle the backfeed but when I proposed a Siemens SolarReady 400 Amp service entrance they couldn't approve it cause since the building is a shop - they classify it as commercial and require a panel that can handle CTs when there is a 400 Amp service involved. > > Anyone else faced with this have solutions? What is the cheapest equipment I can provide to satisfy all requirements? > > We don't need to upgrade the existing 200 amp service entrance equipment for load purposes - only to meet the bus requirements of backfeed. > > Would it be cheaper and easier to use the existing (or new) 200 Amp residential panel - not call it a 400 Amp upgrade but simply add a 200 Amp Supply Side Connection? Suggested equipment to do that in the most economical manner? > > Any help well appreciated! > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Wed Oct 23 19:14:42 2019 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 19:14:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Ready Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection? In-Reply-To: <62B05298-00DD-408A-AD56-1254508B7C15@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <7c0fecfab8b5b2b7753fe67b2bb13ded@mail.gmail.com> <62B05298-00DD-408A-AD56-1254508B7C15@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Jeff, While this is a big thread but if I understand correctly, especially with your last comment "combiner cost is to high". I use a fiberglass 14 x12 junction box with a hinged cover along with a power distribution block. Total cost is just a bit over $200 bucks. Attached is a picture. If you want specific p/n contact me off list and I'd be happy to share. Christopher On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 6:04 PM Jeff Clearwater < jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > Hey William, > > That exact unit is actually where I started this journey but PG&E will not > accept that Solarready residential unit because it’s a commercial account > and anything over 200 A in a commercial account requires a CT cabinet. So > to avoid CTs we need to separate out the 200 amp meter socket. > > I could feed that unit with 200 Amos after a 200 A Meter\Main but the > combined cost would be high. > Best, > > Jeff > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 23, 2019, at 10:59 AM, William Miller > wrote: > > Jeff: > > > > Would a class 320, solar-ready, meter/main combo be approved for this > commercial application? Here is a link > > to a product we have used in residential applications. It offers > through-the-jaws metering at 400 amps peak, 320 amps continuous. > > > > William > > > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2019 9:11 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply > Side connection? > > > > Hey Jay, > > Yes so you were on to it - but with the addition of having that downstream > of a separate 200 AMP meter box and 200 A Main that works :) Otherwise > PG&E would call it a 400 Amp service which for commercial accounts means > having to have CTs for the metering. > > Thanks!, > > Jeff > > Jay wrote on 10/17/19 3:38 PM: > > > What about installing a 200 amp breaker in the 400 amp buss box? > > > > We talk a lot about doing it for smaller boxes, is there a reason it won’t > work here? > > > > Jay > > Peltz power > > > > On Oct 17, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Glenn Burt > wrote: > >  > > Hi Jeff, > > > > Seems to me if allowed in your jurisdiction, you might be best served by > installing a new 200A fused service disconnect ahead of the existing main > service panel. Or even a 400A one to allow for additional work inside > (CT’s), then perform a supply side connection in it. Some manufacturers of > switchgear have an option for lugs that accept multiple conductors, so no > piercing of conductors needs to happen. > > > > Good luck, > > Glenn > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater > *Sent:* Thursday, October 17, 2019 3:20 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side > connection? > > > > Esteemed Wrenches, > > I am in need of changing out an existing 200 Amp service entrance in order > to accommodate a bus capable of handling a a 200 Amp Solar backfeed (41 KW > system) . > > PG&E is upgrading the transformer to handle the backfeed but when I > proposed a Siemens SolarReady 400 Amp service entrance they couldn't > approve it cause since the building is a shop - they classify it as > commercial and require a panel that can handle CTs when there is a 400 Amp > service involved. > > Anyone else faced with this have solutions? What is the cheapest > equipment I can provide to satisfy all requirements? > > We don't need to upgrade the existing 200 amp service entrance equipment > for load purposes - only to meet the bus requirements of backfeed. > > Would it be cheaper and easier to use the existing (or new) 200 Amp > residential panel - not call it a 400 Amp upgrade but simply add a 200 Amp > Supply Side Connection? Suggested equipment to do that in the most > economical manner? > > Any help well appreciated! > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20190115_125728.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 198651 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Oct 24 10:14:18 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 10:14:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side connection? In-Reply-To: <27b0af90-9a76-13f5-088e-191a49c7446b@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <016401d58529$8324ad70$896e0850$@glbcc.com> <3D61196A-1582-48E4-A452-E8EB1DD7D6EA@gmail.com> <27b0af90-9a76-13f5-088e-191a49c7446b@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: We have found it so much simpler to not have to deal with 400a rated equipment, and to just to a supply side connection. We have used taps such as the ILSCO PBTD series, inside a typical plastic junction box that comes between the 200A meter and any service disconnect. It is also not much more expensive to make sure all panels and main breakers are rated at 22kair. If the inverters are nearby, you could just install a 200A main breaker panel for the solar combiner, and the main breaker in there counts as the service disconnect, so no additional 200A fused disconnect is needed. Apologies if something in 2017 code makes this all not possible, as we are still on 2014 in NY. See 705.12(D)(2)(c) Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 12:11 PM Jeff Clearwater < jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > Hey Jay, > > Yes so you were on to it - but with the addition of having that downstream > of a separate 200 AMP meter box and 200 A Main that works :) Otherwise > PG&E would call it a 400 Amp service which for commercial accounts means > having to have CTs for the metering. > > Thanks!, > > Jeff > > Jay wrote on 10/17/19 3:38 PM: > > What about installing a 200 amp breaker in the 400 amp buss box? > > We talk a lot about doing it for smaller boxes, is there a reason it won’t > work here? > > Jay > Peltz power > > On Oct 17, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Glenn Burt > wrote: > >  > > Hi Jeff, > > > > Seems to me if allowed in your jurisdiction, you might be best served by > installing a new 200A fused service disconnect ahead of the existing main > service panel. Or even a 400A one to allow for additional work inside > (CT’s), then perform a supply side connection in it. Some manufacturers of > switchgear have an option for lugs that accept multiple conductors, so no > piercing of conductors needs to happen. > > > > Good luck, > > Glenn > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf Of *Jeff Clearwater > *Sent:* Thursday, October 17, 2019 3:20 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SolarReady Service Panel vs adding Supply Side > connection? > > > > Esteemed Wrenches, > > I am in need of changing out an existing 200 Amp service entrance in order > to accommodate a bus capable of handling a a 200 Amp Solar backfeed (41 KW > system) . > > PG&E is upgrading the transformer to handle the backfeed but when I > proposed a Siemens SolarReady 400 Amp service entrance they couldn't > approve it cause since the building is a shop - they classify it as > commercial and require a panel that can handle CTs when there is a 400 Amp > service involved. > > Anyone else faced with this have solutions? What is the cheapest > equipment I can provide to satisfy all requirements? > > We don't need to upgrade the existing 200 amp service entrance equipment > for load purposes - only to meet the bus requirements of backfeed. > > Would it be cheaper and easier to use the existing (or new) 200 Amp > residential panel - not call it a 400 Amp upgrade but simply add a 200 Amp > Supply Side Connection? Suggested equipment to do that in the most > economical manner? > > Any help well appreciated! > > Jeff > > > > > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Oct 28 17:46:43 2019 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 14:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] control or AC board Message-ID: <1572299203.125613078@webmail.finestplanet.com> wrenches, i have a GVFX3648 that is acting weird, rather then the mate normally showing: AC <-> DC which shows the inverter's total power processing, minus "AC load" equals "Selling" now the AC <-> DC shows nothing and "AC load" = "Selling" are identical (both track the same level of load and selling) the unit is still selling, but the transformer is running hot and humming louder then normal... fet and cap temps are normal. question: is this the ac board or the control board i have spares for both but don't want to replace things that still work fine. thanks, todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Oct 28 19:59:03 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 16:59:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] control or AC board In-Reply-To: <1572299203.125613078@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1572299203.125613078@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Wrenches and Todd Have done any software updates or other component changes, have you used another mate to confirm same condition present. Have you confirmed that the selling amount is accurate. I have had very little issues with the FX on general but l have had mates act up. Jerry On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 3:22 PM wrote: > wrenches, > > i have a GVFX3648 that is acting weird, > > rather then the mate normally showing: > AC <-> DC which shows the inverter's total power processing, > minus "AC load" > equals "Selling" > > now the AC <-> DC shows nothing and "AC load" = "Selling" are identical > (both track the same level of load and selling) > > the unit is still selling, but the transformer is running hot and humming > louder then normal... fet and cap temps are normal. > > question: > > is this the ac board > or the control board > > > i have spares for both but don't want to replace things that still work > fine. > > thanks, > > > > todd > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Oct 28 20:05:19 2019 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 17:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] control or AC board In-Reply-To: References: <1572299203.125613078@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <1572307519.722624710@webmail.finestplanet.com> thanks for the reply jerry, nope, no changes... the first thing i did was to swap mates and saw the same readings. outback customer support said they thought it was the control board (because ac boards rarely fail), so i will do that tomorrow... but thought some wrences might have seen this anomaly before saving me a possible second trip off and back on the wall. todd On Monday, October 28, 2019 4:59pm, "Jerry Shafer" said: Wrenches and Todd Have done any software updates or other component changes, have you used another mate to confirm same condition present. Have you confirmed that the selling amount is accurate. I have had very little issues with the FX on general but l have had mates act up. Jerry On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, 3:22 PM <[ toddcory at finestplanet.com ]( mailto:toddcory at finestplanet.com )> wrote: wrenches, i have a GVFX3648 that is acting weird, rather then the mate normally showing: AC <-> DC which shows the inverter's total power processing, minus "AC load" equals "Selling" now the AC <-> DC shows nothing and "AC load" = "Selling" are identical (both track the same level of load and selling) the unit is still selling, but the transformer is running hot and humming louder then normal... fet and cap temps are normal. question: is this the ac board or the control board i have spares for both but don't want to replace things that still work fine. thanks, todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ) List rules & etiquette: [ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Oct 28 20:12:31 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 18:12:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] control or AC board In-Reply-To: <1572299203.125613078@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1572299203.125613078@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: You probably already checked this, but have you made sure the transfer switch wasn't switched to bypass?  Also, you didn't mention the age of the system.  I've seen quite a few Outbacks requiring rebuilds at 9+ years.  Usually the control board, but the relays on the AC board can get cooked, if there are too many loads on backup, and of course the FET boards can go too.  I started changing all the boards and the fan too, as I've had to come back 6 months later to replace a different board or fan. Reminds me of rebuilt carburetors.... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/29/19 3:46 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > > wrenches, > > i have a GVFX3648 that is acting weird, > > rather then the mate normally showing: > AC <-> DC which shows the inverter's total power processing, > minus "AC load" > equals "Selling" > > now the AC <-> DC shows nothing and "AC load" = "Selling" are > identical (both track the same level of load and selling) > > the unit is still selling, but the transformer is running hot and > humming louder then normal... fet and cap temps are normal. > > question: > > is this the ac board > or the control board > > > i have spares for both but don't want to replace things that still > work fine. > > thanks, > > todd > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Oct 28 20:22:47 2019 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 17:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] control or AC board In-Reply-To: References: <1572299203.125613078@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <1572308567.32452320@webmail.finestplanet.com> thanks for the advice ray... this is easily 10 years old. and while this is off the wall it will get a new internal fan and transformer temp sensor (that failed 2 years ago). i will look at the ac board relays when it is open too. todd On Monday, October 28, 2019 5:12pm, "Ray" said: You probably already checked this, but have you made sure the transfer switch wasn't switched to bypass? Also, you didn't mention the age of the system. I've seen quite a few Outbacks requiring rebuilds at 9+ years. Usually the control board, but the relays on the AC board can get cooked, if there are too many loads on backup, and of course the FET boards can go too. I started changing all the boards and the fan too, as I've had to come back 6 months later to replace a different board or fan. Reminds me of rebuilt carburetors.... Ray WaltersRemote Solar303 505-8760 On 10/29/19 3:46 PM, [ toddcory at finestplanet.com ]( mailto:toddcory at finestplanet.com ) wrote: wrenches, i have a GVFX3648 that is acting weird, rather then the mate normally showing: AC <-> DC which shows the inverter's total power processing, minus "AC load" equals "Selling" now the AC <-> DC shows nothing and "AC load" = "Selling" are identical (both track the same level of load and selling) the unit is still selling, but the transformer is running hot and humming louder then normal... fet and cap temps are normal. question: is this the ac board or the control board i have spares for both but don't want to replace things that still work fine. thanks, todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )Change listserver email address & settings:[ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org )List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html )List rules & etiquette:[ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm )Check out or update participant bios:[ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 28 20:18:21 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 17:18:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] control or AC board In-Reply-To: <1572299203.125613078@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1572299203.125613078@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <9A6DC179-3C5A-412E-898D-67CF6EB33D65@gmail.com> I’d talk to kris Stone, if OB hasn’t been if any help Jay > On Oct 28, 2019, at 3:22 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > >  > wrenches, > > i have a GVFX3648 that is acting weird, > > rather then the mate normally showing: > AC <-> DC which shows the inverter's total power processing, > minus "AC load" > equals "Selling" > > now the AC <-> DC shows nothing and "AC load" = "Selling" are identical (both track the same level of load and selling) > > the unit is still selling, but the transformer is running hot and humming louder then normal... fet and cap temps are normal. > > question: > is this the ac board > or the control board > > i have spares for both but don't want to replace things that still work fine. > > thanks, > > todd > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Tue Oct 29 00:02:46 2019 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 04:02:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gould ITE 600 amp fusible switch References: <1259368788.1567320.1572321766483.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1259368788.1567320.1572321766483@mail.yahoo.com> Wrenches, Does anyone have experience with this fused switch, and in particular the fuse holders? Gould ITE 600 Amp 600V V7H3606MS Fusible Panelboard Switch V7H3606 600A Fused (TK0412-1) I am replacing the fuses and they don't want to come out. They are wedged in very tightly. I"m concerned I might break a fuse. Do they make fuse pullers for these? My suppliers are having difficulty with this. Thanks, Jerry Caldwell | | | | | | | | | | | Gould ITE 600 Amp 600V V7H3606MS Fusible Panelboard Switch V7H3606 600A ... ITE V7H3606MS - Vacu-Break Clampmatic Fusible Panelboard Switch
600 Amp - 600 VAC - 3 Pole | | | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Oct 30 16:00:48 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:00:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers Message-ID: <445191f467bf9528a689d219e6d1fe036ee8315b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, What is the best combination of charge controller and optimizer to use with an off grid, battery based system? What combinations are problematic? Thank you, Drake Athens Electric 740-856-9648 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Oct 30 17:11:29 2019 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:11:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: <445191f467bf9528a689d219e6d1fe036ee8315b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <445191f467bf9528a689d219e6d1fe036ee8315b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake, I must be old school - why use optimizers? Allan > On Oct 30, 2019, at 1:00 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best combination of charge controller and optimizer to use with an off grid, battery based system? What combinations are problematic? > > Thank you, > > Drake > Athens Electric > 740-856-9648 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 17:35:44 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:35:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: <445191f467bf9528a689d219e6d1fe036ee8315b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <445191f467bf9528a689d219e6d1fe036ee8315b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I have been happy with Tigo and Outback Jerry On Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 1:30 PM wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best combination of charge controller and optimizer to use > with an off grid, battery based system? What combinations are problematic? > > Thank you, > > Drake > Athens Electric > 740-856-9648 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Oct 30 17:34:19 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:34:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: References: <445191f467bf9528a689d219e6d1fe036ee8315b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <8c7ad6ac955aadbea6ec96959a02976b@mail.gmail.com> I think I know this one: For rapid shutdown? William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 2:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers Drake, I must be old school - why use optimizers? Allan > On Oct 30, 2019, at 1:00 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best combination of charge controller and optimizer to use with an off grid, battery based system? What combinations are problematic? > > Thank you, > > Drake > Athens Electric > 740-856-9648 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Oct 30 19:02:58 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 19:02:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: <8c7ad6ac955aadbea6ec96959a02976b@mail.gmail.com> References: <445191f467bf9528a689d219e6d1fe036ee8315b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <8c7ad6ac955aadbea6ec96959a02976b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00af01d58f76$2e95f4b0$8bc1de10$@glbcc.com> Then again, why optimizers? Rapid shutdown MLPE exist without the complexity and cost of optimizers, so I too am perplexed. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 5:34 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers I think I know this one: For rapid shutdown? William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 2:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers Drake, I must be old school - why use optimizers? Allan > On Oct 30, 2019, at 1:00 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best combination of charge controller and optimizer to use with an off grid, battery based system? What combinations are problematic? > > Thank you, > > Drake > Athens Electric > 740-856-9648 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm l List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Oct 30 19:11:20 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:11:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: <00af01d58f76$2e95f4b0$8bc1de10$@glbcc.com> References: <445191f467bf9528a689d219e6d1fe036ee8315b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <8c7ad6ac955aadbea6ec96959a02976b@mail.gmail.com> <00af01d58f76$2e95f4b0$8bc1de10$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <943488f9d312b4356804e8e61475a795@127.0.0.1> Probably for shading! I cut the trees down to avoid all shading offgrid. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 19:02:58 -0400, "Glenn Burt" wrote: > Then again, why optimizers? > Rapid shutdown MLPE exist without the complexity and cost of optimizers, so > I too am perplexed. > > Glenn > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of > William Miller > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 5:34 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers > > I think I know this one: For rapid shutdown? > > William > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Allan Sindelar > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 2:11 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers > > Drake, I must be old school - why use optimizers? > Allan > > >> On Oct 30, 2019, at 1:00 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> What is the best combination of charge controller and optimizer to use > with an off grid, battery based system? What combinations are problematic? > >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> Athens Electric >> 740-856-9648 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm > l >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm > l > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 19:22:35 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:22:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: <445191f467bf9528a689d219e6d1fe036ee8315b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <445191f467bf9528a689d219e6d1fe036ee8315b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: The Tigo product for RSD it is not an "optimizer" just a module level shut down device Jerry On Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 1:30 PM wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best combination of charge controller and optimizer to use > with an off grid, battery based system? What combinations are problematic? > > Thank you, > > Drake > Athens Electric > 740-856-9648 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 21:06:26 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 19:06:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: References: <445191f467bf9528a689d219e6d1fe036ee8315b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I haven't noticed in a while, but there used to be a note included with Midnite charge controllers saying not to use with Tigo optimizer products, something would blow up. If its just rapid shutdown you need, then the Tigo rapid shutdown system seems to work with the Midnite charge controller. You'll need the Tigo transmitter device. We just did this and it worked fine. Good luck On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 5:23 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > The Tigo product for RSD it is not an "optimizer" just a module level shut > down device > Jerry > > On Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 1:30 PM > wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> What is the best combination of charge controller and optimizer to use >> with an off grid, battery based system? What combinations are problematic? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> Athens Electric >> 740-856-9648 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Wed Oct 30 22:11:57 2019 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 19:11:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: References: <445191f467bf9528a689d219e6d1fe036ee8315b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <7a95fa44-0e4e-fe1e-370e-2e30c2a56b86@midnitesolar.com> That notice not to use Tigo with the MidNite Classic controller was several years ago. Not long after that, Tigo did something to their optimizers to fix it and there has not been a problem since. Should be good to go. boB On 10/30/2019 6:06 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > I haven't noticed in a while, but there used to be a note included > with Midnite charge controllers saying not to use with Tigo optimizer > products, something would blow up. > > If its just rapid shutdown you need, then the Tigo rapid shutdown > system seems to work with the Midnite charge controller.  You'll need > the Tigo transmitter device.  We just did this and it worked fine. > > Good luck > > On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 5:23 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > The Tigo product for RSD it is not an "optimizer" just a module > level shut down device > Jerry > > On Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 1:30 PM > > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best combination of charge controller and > optimizer to use with an off grid, battery based system? What > combinations are problematic? > > Thank you, > > Drake > Athens Electric > 740-856-9648 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Oct 31 11:04:53 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:04:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: <943488f9d312b4356804e8e61475a795@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: After doing research, it seems that the optimizers won't do what is needed for the shading and orientation issues. The modules will be on the east and west pitches of the roof. There is an existing array with a Midnite Solar Classic. There are 4 sub-arrays of 3 modules each , all facing due south  that act independently. The new sub-array has more shading and orientation issues. We may need to cut more trees, but would rather not. Although it seems radical for an off grid system., I'm considering using microinverters, AC coupled to a Radian. Is this idea totally crazy? Thank you, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: offgridsolar at sti.net "RE-wrenches" To:, "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent:Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:11:20 -0700 Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers Probably for shading! I cut the trees down to avoid all shading offgrid. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 19:02:58 -0400, "Glenn Burt" wrote: > Then again, why optimizers? > Rapid shutdown MLPE exist without the complexity and cost of optimizers, so > I too am perplexed. > > Glenn > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of > William Miller > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 5:34 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers > > I think I know this one: For rapid shutdown? > > William > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Allan Sindelar > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 2:11 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers > > Drake, I must be old school - why use optimizers? > Allan > > >> On Oct 30, 2019, at 1:00 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> What is the best combination of charge controller and optimizer to use > with an off grid, battery based system? What combinations are problematic? > >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> Athens Electric >> 740-856-9648 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm > l >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm > l > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Oct 31 10:49:31 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 10:49:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9af9450809ced4a072999d16da3780dd05fba4ca@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Hi Allan Shading issues. Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To:"RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent:Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:11:29 -0700 Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers Drake, I must be old school - why use optimizers? Allan > On Oct 30, 2019, at 1:00 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best combination of charge controller and optimizer to use with an off grid, battery based system? What combinations are problematic? > > Thank you, > > Drake > Athens Electric > 740-856-9648 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Oct 31 11:52:42 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:52:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6853e375-3709-c926-e4c4-c4237b79f9c4@solarray.com> I don't think adding micro inverters is too crazy idea, since you already have a DC coupled array in the system. I just wouldn't go too much power over the base load though.  Also splitting the array on East and West faces will help spread the production out over the day and avoid the clunky "on/ off" control from the frequency shift or relay control scheme.  I'd also set the DC controller to do the final charging, maybe a 1/2 to 1  v higher than the setting for the AC coupled array.  Basically as the batteries reach the absorption phase, the AC coupled array would drop first, and the DC coupled array would do the actual 3 stage charging. I've been against AC coupled arrays for off grid, but I think they can be worked into a larger system as long as there is plenty of DC coupled array.  In my mind, the AC coupled array offsets daily loads, while the DC actually charges the batteries.  Maybe you could put some of the new subarray less likely to be shaded on DC, and then put the lower, more shaded modules on micro inverters? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/1/19 9:04 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > After doing research, it seems that the optimizers won't do what is > needed for the shading and orientation issues. The modules will be on > the east and west pitches of the roof. > > There is an existing array with a Midnite Solar Classic. There are 4 > sub-arrays of 3 modules each , all facing due south  that act > independently. > > The new sub-array has more shading and orientation issues. We may need > to cut more trees, but would rather not. > > Although it seems radical for an off grid system., I'm considering > using microinverters, AC coupled to a Radian. Is this idea totally crazy? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > offgridsolar at sti.net "RE-wrenches" > > To: > , "RE-wrenches" > > Cc: > > Sent: > Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:11:20 -0700 > Subject: > Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers > > > Probably for shading! I cut the trees down to avoid all shading > offgrid. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 19:02:58 -0400, "Glenn Burt" > > wrote: > > Then again, why optimizers? > > Rapid shutdown MLPE exist without the complexity and cost of > optimizers, > so > > I too am perplexed. > > > > Glenn > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches On > Behalf > Of > > William Miller > > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 5:34 PM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers > > > > I think I know this one: For rapid shutdown? > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > > Behalf Of Allan Sindelar > > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 2:11 PM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers > > > > Drake, I must be old school - why use optimizers? > > Allan > > > > > >> On Oct 30, 2019, at 1:00 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > wrote: > >> > >> Hello Wrenches, > >> > >> What is the best combination of charge controller and optimizer > to use > > with an off grid, battery based system? What combinations are > problematic? > > > >> > >> Thank you, > >> > >> Drake > >> Athens Electric > >> 740-856-9648 > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm > > l > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm > > l > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 11:49:19 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:49:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C746045-D63D-4373-9D94-26A269212E7B@gmail.com> How many watts are you adding as ac coupling? And presuming its an older 8k radian? Jay From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Oct 31 12:41:09 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:41:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: <6853e375-3709-c926-e4c4-c4237b79f9c4@solarray.com> References: <6853e375-3709-c926-e4c4-c4237b79f9c4@solarray.com> Message-ID: The key for me to breaking the less is more rule for offgrid would be, there is someone on scene that understands and can watch for possible AC coupling hiccups. I sure don't want to be going there and doing this myself. Roof mounting of solar just has so many negatives for offgrid. I would only use a roof to supplement decent ground mounted arrays. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:52:42 -0600, Ray wrote: I don't think adding micro inverters is too crazy idea, since you already have a DC coupled array in the system. I just wouldn't go too much power over the base load though. Also splitting the array on East and West faces will help spread the production out over the day and avoid the clunky "on/ off" control from the frequency shift or relay control scheme. I'd also set the DC controller to do the final charging, maybe a 1/2 to 1 v higher than the setting for the AC coupled array. Basically as the batteries reach the absorption phase, the AC coupled array would drop first, and the DC coupled array would do the actual 3 stage charging. I've been against AC coupled arrays for off grid, but I think they can be worked into a larger system as long as there is plenty of DC coupled array. In my mind, the AC coupled array offsets daily loads, while the DC actually charges the batteries. Maybe you could put some of the new subarray less likely to be shaded on DC, and then put the lower, more shaded modules on micro inverters? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/1/19 9:04 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [3] wrote: After doing research, it seems that the optimizers won't do what is needed for the shading and orientation issues. The modules will be on the east and west pitches of the roof. There is an existing array with a Midnite Solar Classic. There are 4 sub-arrays of 3 modules each , all facing due south that act independently. The new sub-array has more shading and orientation issues. We may need to cut more trees, but would rather not. Although it seems radical for an off grid system., I'm considering using microinverters, AC coupled to a Radian. Is this idea totally crazy? Thank you, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: offgridsolar at sti.net [4] "RE-wrenches" [5] To: [6], "RE-wrenches" [7] Cc: Sent: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:11:20 -0700 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers Probably for shading! I cut the trees down to avoid all shading offgrid. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [8] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [9] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 19:02:58 -0400, "Glenn Burt" [10] wrote: > Then again, why optimizers? > Rapid shutdown MLPE exist without the complexity and cost of optimizers, so > I too am perplexed. > > Glenn > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [11] On Behalf Of > William Miller > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 5:34 PM > To: RE-wrenches [12] > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers > > I think I know this one: For rapid shutdown? > > William > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com [13] > CA Lic. 773985 > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [14]] On > Behalf Of Allan Sindelar > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 2:11 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers > > Drake, I must be old school - why use optimizers? > Allan > > >> On Oct 30, 2019, at 1:00 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [15] wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> What is the best combination of charge controller and optimizer to use > with an off grid, battery based system? What combinations are problematic? > >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> Athens Electric >> 740-856-9648 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] >> >> List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htm [18] > l >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [21] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at 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URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Oct 31 12:49:34 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 12:49:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: <4C746045-D63D-4373-9D94-26A269212E7B@gmail.com> References: <4C746045-D63D-4373-9D94-26A269212E7B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1572540592949.566073da79b49b9a@redwoodalliance.org> Hi Jay, Between 2160 and 2880 Watts of added array. We will be using a new Radian. Drake At 11:49 AM 10/31/2019, you wrote: >How many watts are you adding as ac coupling? >And presuming its an older 8k radian? > > >Jay > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 14:06:52 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:06:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: <1572540592949.566073da79b49b9a@redwoodalliance.org> References: <4C746045-D63D-4373-9D94-26A269212E7B@gmail.com> <1572540592949.566073da79b49b9a@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: HI Drake, I was just talking with a colleague the other day about a project he did. New Radian, AC coupling, lithium batteries, SB inverters. Everything is working just as it should with the GT inverters tapering during AC coupling frequency shift mode. I would say you are fine, and while I can’t say for sure if the Enphase will work that way, they should as they are all designed to the same parameters rule 21. I always do recommend a aux relay for backup/shutoff should there be some kind of issue. With the Envoy you’ll be able to see that tapering as well. Seems like a good option for your application jay > On Oct 31, 2019, at 9:49 AM, Drake wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > Between 2160 and 2880 Watts of added array. We will be using a new Radian. > > Drake > > At 11:49 AM 10/31/2019, you wrote: >> How many watts are you adding as ac coupling? >> And presuming its an older 8k radian? >> >> >> Jay >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 15:08:24 2019 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 12:08:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: References: <4C746045-D63D-4373-9D94-26A269212E7B@gmail.com> <1572540592949.566073da79b49b9a@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <8401E2E2-6BD7-485C-8782-49ED2561F28D@gmail.com> You know Murphy? That is Murphy of Murphy’s Law? He’s gotta just love the idea of AC coupled off-grid systems. The OB, SB, Li system Jay described is going to keep him (Murphy) and the installer very busy at some point. The further away the system is from civilization, the higher the odds of chicanery and headaches. Systems that need backup safety controls seem inherently risky too. > On Oct 31, 2019, at 11:06 AM, jay wrote: > > HI Drake, > > I was just talking with a colleague the other day about a project he did. > New Radian, AC coupling, lithium batteries, SB inverters. Everything is working just as it should with the GT inverters tapering during AC coupling frequency shift mode. > > > I would say you are fine, and while I can’t say for sure if the Enphase will work that way, they should as they are all designed to the same parameters rule 21. > > I always do recommend a aux relay for backup/shutoff should there be some kind of issue. > > With the Envoy you’ll be able to see that tapering as well. > > Seems like a good option for your application > > jay > > > > > >> On Oct 31, 2019, at 9:49 AM, Drake wrote: >> >> Hi Jay, >> >> Between 2160 and 2880 Watts of added array. We will be using a new Radian. >> >> Drake >> >> At 11:49 AM 10/31/2019, you wrote: >>> How many watts are you adding as ac coupling? >>> And presuming its an older 8k radian? >>> >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Oct 31 21:33:11 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 19:33:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: <8401E2E2-6BD7-485C-8782-49ED2561F28D@gmail.com> References: <4C746045-D63D-4373-9D94-26A269212E7B@gmail.com> <1572540592949.566073da79b49b9a@redwoodalliance.org> <8401E2E2-6BD7-485C-8782-49ED2561F28D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <145c6457-0d65-d82d-849f-af29c3471cce@solarray.com> We've discussed AC coupled many times.   Aside from the issues Michael brought up, I need to remind that not having at least some DC  PV charging means that when the AC system shuts down for any reason, so does all the PV charging.  If Li+ batteries get discharged to their low voltage shut off:  Dark Starts anyone? With lead acid, DC coupled PV is just as critical to keep the battery from sulfating. Which would you want? Scenario 1:Come back to trouble shoot a system shutdown,  try to reboot, only to find no battery voltage to even test with. or Scenario 2:  You will have a battery that is being charged, if not already at full charge. For GTB?, you decide how important this issue is,  but for Off grid you are putting your customer in serious jeopardy without power. Unless they have a manual bypass, the generator won't pass through to the loads, or charge the battery either.  This is not theory, We've had to fix these, and in some cases replace the battery bank that was damaged after sitting dead too long. My previous post in favor of AC coupling was only as a supplement to a solid DC PV system, or for module level optimization in partial shade conditions. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/1/19 1:08 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote: > You know Murphy? That is Murphy of Murphy’s Law?  He’s gotta just love > the idea of AC coupled off-grid systems. The OB, SB, Li system Jay > described is going to keep him (Murphy) and the installer very busy at > some point. The further away the system is from civilization, the > higher the odds of chicanery and headaches. Systems that need backup > safety controls seem inherently risky too. > > > >> On Oct 31, 2019, at 11:06 AM, jay > > wrote: >> >> HI Drake, >> >> I was just talking with a colleague the other day about a project he >> did. >> New Radian, AC coupling, lithium batteries, SB inverters.  Everything >> is working just as it should with the GT inverters tapering during AC >> coupling frequency shift mode. >> >> >> I would say you are fine, and while I can’t say for sure if the >> Enphase will work that way, they should as they are all designed to >> the same parameters rule 21. >> >> I always do recommend a aux relay for backup/shutoff  should there be >> some kind of issue. >> >> With the Envoy you’ll be able to see that tapering as well. >> >> Seems like a good option for your application >> >> jay >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Oct 31, 2019, at 9:49 AM, Drake >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Jay, >>> >>> Between 2160 and 2880 Watts of added array. We will be using a new >>> Radian. >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> At 11:49 AM 10/31/2019, you wrote: >>>> How many watts are you adding as ac coupling? >>>> And presuming its an older 8k radian? >>>> >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > * > > * > > *Michael **Morningstar* > * > * > */Morningstar Electric/* > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, California 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 949635 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Nov 1 07:26:59 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 07:26:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Maximum Devices on Combox Message-ID: The Conext Combox manual states: Max. number of Xanbus devices: Up to 20 (depending on the device type) Does anyone know what "(depending on the device type)" means? What are the actual limitations? Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Nov 1 08:15:35 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 08:15:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Inverter Grid Support Mode Message-ID: When the inverter is using this mode, at night or when there is not much PV power, are the laods seeing inverter output power or does the grid pass through the inverter, as in bypass the inverter directly to the loads. The manual says: "In the morning, the PV system begins 3-stage charging of the batteries at bulk stage and power from the grid passes through the XW+ (including XW) to the loads." That is not really clear. What does "passes through" mean? Does that mean the grid charges the batteries with the integrated charger simultaneously with the inverter outputting AC power, or does that mean the utility power bypasses the inverter and powers the loads directly while the PV system gets the batteries charged up? While on the subject, and I don't think this is possible, but I have a Conext off-grid client that wants to have "clean" inverter power all the time rather than the generator power bypassing the inverters and powering the loads directly during battery charging. I told him it is not possible without using an external battery charger and eliminating the generator AC input to the inverter. I think I am correct on that, but I'll take any suggestions! Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Fri Nov 1 08:45:55 2019 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 12:45:55 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Inverter Grid Support Mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, The Conext XW+ in grid support, either grid support sell or self-consumption and during solar hours. The inverter operates in parallel with the grid but prioritizes renewable energy. At the end of the day, the inverter will decide which mode to switch next based on the battery voltage. Since in most cases the batteries are in reserve for a power outage, the inverter will go into passthrough mode. In passthrough mode the inverter support 100% of the loads utilizing power from the source (grid). In some cases, it is possible that inverter may be required to also charge batteries from the source provided that the charger inside the inverter is enabled, then the inverter will enter into charging while still supporting 100% of the loads with the source, this is not common, since it is preferable to only charge batteries with the array. Additionally, the Conext XW+ is not a power conditioning device, which means that it will not clean the source, the passthrough power quality that the loads will see is the quality of the source. Sandra Herrera Sandra.herrera at se.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Friday, November 1, 2019 5:16 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Inverter Grid Support Mode [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ When the inverter is using this mode, at night or when there is not much PV power, are the laods seeing inverter output power or does the grid pass through the inverter, as in bypass the inverter directly to the loads. The manual says: "In the morning, the PV system begins 3-stage charging of the batteries at bulk stage and power from the grid passes through the XW+ (including XW) to the loads." That is not really clear. What does "passes through" mean? Does that mean the grid charges the batteries with the integrated charger simultaneously with the inverter outputting AC power, or does that mean the utility power bypasses the inverter and powers the loads directly while the PV system gets the batteries charged up? While on the subject, and I don't think this is possible, but I have a Conext off-grid client that wants to have "clean" inverter power all the time rather than the generator power bypassing the inverters and powering the loads directly during battery charging. I told him it is not possible without using an external battery charger and eliminating the generator AC input to the inverter. I think I am correct on that, but I'll take any suggestions! Jason Szumlanski ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Nov 1 11:19:13 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 08:19:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Maximum Devices on Combox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, The limitations are basic canbus limits. xanbus is very similar. In very large clusters, in an XW system comboxes are master slaved to get more devices. Xanbus devices are also not just one type. In other words an XW+ is 2 devices and a mppt is one device. Also the overall length of the wiring is critical as in canbus. Building a large system? Time to read the tech notes on the Schneider website. What are you trying to design please? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 07:26:59 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: The Conext Combox manual states: Max. number of Xanbus devices: Up to 20 (depending on the device type) Does anyone know what "(depending on the device type)" means? What are the actual limitations? Jason Szumlanski -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Nov 1 12:33:49 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 12:33:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: <145c6457-0d65-d82d-849f-af29c3471cce@solarray.com> Message-ID: <67ae5e694189ce48154c67059eeaa1a0b123444a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> I agree completely that AC coupled systems are far better off if they have a battery charging method completely independent of the off-grid inverter. Some DC coupled solar is the best way to go. The system I'm considering already has 2820 W of DC coupled PV. Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: Cc: Sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 19:33:11 -0600 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers We've discussed AC coupled many times.   Aside from the issues Michael brought up, I need to remind that not having at least some DC  PV charging means that when the AC system shuts down for any reason, so does all the PV charging.  If Li+ batteries get discharged to their low voltage shut off:  Dark Starts anyone?   With lead acid, DC coupled PV is just as critical to keep the battery from sulfating. Which would you want?  Scenario 1:Come back to trouble shoot a system shutdown,  try to reboot, only to find no battery voltage to even test with. or Scenario 2:  You will have a battery that is being charged, if not already at full charge. For GTB?, you decide how important this issue is,  but for Off grid you are putting your customer in serious jeopardy without power. Unless they have a manual bypass, the generator won't pass through to the loads, or charge the battery either.  This is not theory, We've had to fix these, and in some cases replace the battery bank that was damaged after sitting dead too long. My previous post in favor of AC coupling was only as a supplement to a solid DC PV system, or for module level optimization in partial shade conditions. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/1/19 1:08 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote: You know Murphy? That is Murphy of Murphy’s Law?  He’s gotta just love the idea of AC coupled off-grid systems. The OB, SB, Li system Jay described is going to keep him (Murphy) and the installer very busy at some point. The further away the system is from civilization, the higher the odds of chicanery and headaches. Systems that need backup safety controls seem inherently risky too. On Oct 31, 2019, at 11:06 AM, jay wrote: HI Drake, I was just talking with a colleague the other day about a project he did. New Radian, AC coupling, lithium batteries, SB inverters.  Everything is working just as it should with the GT inverters tapering during AC coupling frequency shift mode. I would say you are fine, and while I can’t say for sure if the Enphase will work that way, they should as they are all designed to the same parameters rule 21. I always do recommend a aux relay for backup/shutoff  should there be some kind of issue. With the Envoy you’ll be able to see that tapering as well. Seems like a good option for your application jay On Oct 31, 2019, at 9:49 AM, Drake wrote: Hi Jay, Between 2160 and 2880 Watts of added array. We will be using a new Radian. Drake At 11:49 AM 10/31/2019, you wrote: How many watts are you adding as ac coupling? And presuming its an older 8k radian? Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [3] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [5] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] MICHAEL MORNINGSTAR       _MORNINGSTAR ELECTRIC_ PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635      _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [20] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [21] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [22] Links: ------ [1] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [2] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [3] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [16] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [18] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [19] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [21] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [22] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Fri Nov 1 14:39:43 2019 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 14:39:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wanted: LG315N1K-V5 Black Frame on Black Backsheet Message-ID: Hello All, I got shorted a LG module for a special order job (datasheet attached). My distributor is out (on both the east and west coast). I can't seem to find one online after searching and calling around. Please contact me off-list if you have one or a similar LG that you'd be willing to sell. I will gladly reimburse you for your time/packaging expenses etc... -Matt -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: LG315N1K-V5 Specs.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1443949 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Nov 1 19:22:34 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 19:22:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Maximum Devices on Combox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm trying to decipher why an existing system installed by others has three Comboxes. There are 4 XW+, 9 MPPT80, and an AGS. That sounds like 18 Xanbus devices, so I can't figure out why they used two slaves (one for XWs and AGS and the other for MPPT) and a third combox as master. The master has never aggregated data properly. I'm thinking of scrapping everything and just using a single Conext Gateway. On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 11:19 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > The limitations are basic canbus limits. xanbus is very similar. In very > large clusters, in an XW system comboxes are master slaved to get more > devices. Xanbus devices are also not just one type. In other words an XW+ > is 2 devices and a mppt is one device. Also the overall length of the > wiring is critical as in canbus. Building a large system? Time to read the > tech notes on the Schneider website. What are you trying to design please? > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 07:26:59 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > The Conext Combox manual states: > > Max. number of Xanbus > devices: Up to 20 (depending on the device type) > > Does anyone know what "(depending on the device type)" means? What are the > actual limitations? > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Nov 1 20:14:18 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 17:14:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E portal problems Message-ID: Wrenches: Have any of you in PG & E territory had problems submitting information to PG&E through the on-line NEM portal? I have. I would like to start a conversation off of the wrenches platform to discuss this. Please contact me off the list if you want to exchange stories or ideas. William From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Sat Nov 2 01:11:42 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 05:11:42 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers In-Reply-To: <67ae5e694189ce48154c67059eeaa1a0b123444a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <145c6457-0d65-d82d-849f-af29c3471cce@solarray.com>, <67ae5e694189ce48154c67059eeaa1a0b123444a@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake, I am the colleague that Jay was talking about. I have long believed that a 100% AC coupled system was a bad idea for fully off-grid systems, primarily because of the black start problem, but I'm not against doing some AC coupled, and some DC coupled. The way the Radian works, you should be able to use any PV inverter, as long as you can put a Frequency-Watt grid profile on it. I haven't done that with the Enphase yet, but it should work great. With the SMA SB, you put it in "Off-Grid" mode, and then it will put out 100% of its power as long as the frequency is below 61 Hz, then it tapers its output linearly from 100% at 61 Hz down to 0% at 62 Hz. Because of this programming, the frequency will never go above slightly over 62 Hz This would be stated that the curtailment starting frequency of the SB is 61 Hz, and that the ramp-down rate is 100% per Hz, but it is fully adjustable in the settings. Enphase has the ability to be programmed to the following specifications... The following settings define the IQ Microinverter over frequency power limit * Start frequency in Hz (min 60, max 65) - I would use a minimum of 61, but it shouldn't really matter at all for the operation of the equipment. You really don't want it too high because you don't want the loads in the house to have too high of a frequency. * Start delay in milliseconds (min 0, max 10) - this should be 0 * Ramp down rate in %/Hz (min 40%/Hz, max 83.33%/Hz) - this shouldn't really matter either. I'd go close to the high end since the Sunny Boy is 100%/Hz and it works well. The Radian doesn't know what the curtailment starting frequency is, nor what the ramp down rate is, and it really doesn't care. It just knows that when the voltage gets to the absorb voltage (or the float voltage after the absorb timer is over) then it raises the frequency until it achieves the desired effect, so it doesn't matter if the PV inverter has a different power throttling curve, the Radian can simply adjust for however that inverter reacts. You do need to turn on the AC coupling mode. Basically, it should work perfectly if you program it right, and since you already have the DC-coupled portion to prevent the black start problem, you should be set. Michael Morningstar, Looking back, I wasn't totally clear when I was talking to Jay. The system he was talking about is actually grid-tied, but I took it off-grid for a good long while just to test the taper charging and the reactions between the Radian and the Sunny Boys. I wanted to ensure that it was going to work the way I thought it would, and it worked flawlessly, but due to the black start issue, (dark start), I wouldn't design an off-grid system to be fully AC-coupled. You would be correct about Murphy if it were an off-grid system, the dark start issue is something I wouldn't want to mess around with, but being grid-tied, I don't think it will be an issue (unless doomsday shows up). I am caring for an orphaned system nearby that is solely AC coupled using Li batteries, and it's off-grid. I was very much opposed solely AC-coupling off-grid, and this orphaned system just confirms my leeriness to the idea, but it was also a bad selection of equipment for this purpose. They were using the Schneider XW platform, and the problem there is that the XW takes too long to shift frequency, so while it's lagging, the PV is still putting out full power, and then the battery system far overshoots the absorb voltage, and the Li batteries shut off, and then the voltage really spikes and shut the whole system off. I had to just tweak the absorb voltage lower and lower until I found a voltage low enough that by the time the XW shifted frequency, the battery voltage wouldn't be overshooting the correct absorb voltage. It's a functional workaround that's working okay for now. And addressing Ray's statements, I couldn't agree with you more, but here's one other option that (somewhat) relieves the problem... The other thing I've observed is that if you are going to have a solely AC coupled system off-grid, then at least have the low battery cutout on the inverter significantly higher than the low battery disconnect in the batteries, and then get a few external 48 V battery chargers that can charge a fully dead battery (make sure it is the kind that doesn't look for a live voltage before it powers up). Then permanently wire these chargers directly to the generator output so that it can charge the batteries even if the inverter isn't working at all. This will allow the generator to revive a black start scenario no matter what. I think this is still inferior to having part of the array DC coupled, since it does require firing up a generator, but it is a functional workaround that I have been using on the orphaned system and it really does work. That being said, I think I might be able to talk him into getting some DC-coupled PV next spring. Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: Friday, November 1, 2019 10:33 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers I agree completely that AC coupled systems are far better off if they have a battery charging method completely independent of the off-grid inverter. Some DC coupled solar is the best way to go. The system I'm considering already has 2820 W of DC coupled PV. Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: Cc: Sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 19:33:11 -0600 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Optimizers We've discussed AC coupled many times. Aside from the issues Michael brought up, I need to remind that not having at least some DC PV charging means that when the AC system shuts down for any reason, so does all the PV charging. If Li+ batteries get discharged to their low voltage shut off: Dark Starts anyone? With lead acid, DC coupled PV is just as critical to keep the battery from sulfating. Which would you want? Scenario 1:Come back to trouble shoot a system shutdown, try to reboot, only to find no battery voltage to even test with. or Scenario 2: You will have a battery that is being charged, if not already at full charge. For GTB?, you decide how important this issue is, but for Off grid you are putting your customer in serious jeopardy without power. Unless they have a manual bypass, the generator won't pass through to the loads, or charge the battery either. This is not theory, We've had to fix these, and in some cases replace the battery bank that was damaged after sitting dead too long. My previous post in favor of AC coupling was only as a supplement to a solid DC PV system, or for module level optimization in partial shade conditions. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/1/19 1:08 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote: You know Murphy? That is Murphy of Murphy’s Law? He’s gotta just love the idea of AC coupled off-grid systems. The OB, SB, Li system Jay described is going to keep him (Murphy) and the installer very busy at some point. The further away the system is from civilization, the higher the odds of chicanery and headaches. Systems that need backup safety controls seem inherently risky too. On Oct 31, 2019, at 11:06 AM, jay > wrote: HI Drake, I was just talking with a colleague the other day about a project he did. New Radian, AC coupling, lithium batteries, SB inverters. Everything is working just as it should with the GT inverters tapering during AC coupling frequency shift mode. I would say you are fine, and while I can’t say for sure if the Enphase will work that way, they should as they are all designed to the same parameters rule 21. I always do recommend a aux relay for backup/shutoff should there be some kind of issue. With the Envoy you’ll be able to see that tapering as well. Seems like a good option for your application jay On Oct 31, 2019, at 9:49 AM, Drake > wrote: Hi Jay, Between 2160 and 2880 Watts of added array. We will be using a new Radian. Drake At 11:49 AM 10/31/2019, you wrote: How many watts are you adding as ac coupling? And presuming its an older 8k radian? Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Nov 2 12:09:11 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2019 09:09:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Maximum Devices on Combox Message-ID: <4036c89fc73de7fdb4ff95e5358a9fd5@127.0.0.1> Jason, I am doing this from memory. It could be it is 3 devices. Ask Sharon or Schneider please. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 19:51:09 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I did see that you said XW is 2 devices, so that makes 8 for the inverters, 9 mppts and one ags. That's still less than 20. I don't understand why they needed three Comboxes to accomplish this. On Fri, Nov 1, 2019, 7:49 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: An XW+ is more than one device as I wrote earlier today. Maybe it did not get out? The master combox is driving the 2 slaves. How is firmware revs on all of this. It does work. You should ask Sharon from Schneider on Gateway as it is new and I am not sure of this app. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [5] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 19:22:34 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I'm trying to decipher why an existing system installed by others has three Comboxes. There are 4 XW+, 9 MPPT80, and an AGS. That sounds like 18 Xanbus devices, so I can't figure out why they used two slaves (one for XWs and AGS and the other for MPPT) and a third combox as master. The master has never aggregated data properly. I'm thinking of scrapping everything and just using a single Conext Gateway. On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 11:19 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Hi Jason, The limitations are basic canbus limits. xanbus is very similar. In very large clusters, in an XW system comboxes are master slaved to get more devices. Xanbus devices are also not just one type. In other words an XW+ is 2 devices and a mppt is one device. Also the overall length of the wiring is critical as in canbus. Building a large system? Time to read the tech notes on the Schneider website. What are you trying to design please? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [8] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [9] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 07:26:59 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: The Conext Combox manual states: Max. number of Xanbus devices: Up to 20 (depending on the device type) Does anyone know what "(depending on the device type)" means? What are the actual limitations? Jason Szumlanski -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] List rules ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [16] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [17] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [6] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [7] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [8] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [9] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [10] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [17] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat Nov 2 13:04:58 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 10:04:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect Message-ID: <70544a9b-c770-e1c9-9c2c-9754aec5a71e@berkeleysolar.com> Folks, Can anyone share a parts list for setting up a AC couple disconnect? I want to couple a non-frequency response grid-tied inverter to a battery based stand-alone inverter. I have only 8 amps output from the GT inverters, so can use 10A relay contacts. I want a device to monitor AC voltage and latch a coil on when it raises above a set point (250VAC). I then want a timer to release the latch after about 1 hour. Sound about right? Are any vendors selling such a device? How about a parts list from Digikey? Thanks, Mark Frye From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Nov 2 13:14:03 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2019 13:14:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect Message-ID: Sounds like a job for an Arduino...-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Mark FryeDate: Sat, Nov 2, 2019 1:05 PMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple DisconnectFolks, Can anyone share a parts list for setting up a AC couple disconnect? I want to couple a non-frequency response grid-tied inverter to a battery based stand-alone inverter. I have only 8 amps output from the GT inverters, so can use 10A relay contacts. I want a device to monitor AC voltage and latch a coil on when it raises above a set point (250VAC). I then want a timer to release the latch after about 1 hour. Sound about right? Are any vendors selling such a device? How about a parts list from Digikey? Thanks, Mark Frye _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat Nov 2 13:36:59 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 10:36:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List : Reprise Message-ID: <945f8b46-8e34-747a-b58c-5c8dd7258cf9@berkeleysolar.com> Folks, I guess what I am asking is does anyone know of a cheaper way of implementing than: Digikey, Relay Monitor Voltage, 646-1145-ND, $117 each, Qty. 1 Digikey, On-Delay Timer, RTE-P1AF20, $49 each, Qty. 1 Digikey, Relay Socket, 27E891, $7 each, Qty. 2 Total = ~ $200 Thanks, Mark Frye From rebecca.lundberg at gmail.com Sat Nov 2 14:02:38 2019 From: rebecca.lundberg at gmail.com (Rebecca Lundberg) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 12:02:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What type of solar racking? Message-ID: I went to see an existing solar installation (in the Colorado Front Range) yesterday that was installed ~2008. It's still working well but homeowner is considering either adding another array or swapping out the 170w modules for something newer to increase his output. It's a very nicely done installation, clean, and in good working order, with Schuco modules. Before proposing that we could swap out modules we need to verify that clamps for new modules could be purchased. This residential roof racking is ROUND rails, about 2-2.5" in diameter. Does anyone have an idea of what brand this might be and if components are still available? Rebecca Lundberg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Nov 2 14:07:26 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 11:07:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What type of solar racking? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you have any pics of the racking system Jerry On Sat, Nov 2, 2019, 11:02 AM Rebecca Lundberg wrote: > I went to see an existing solar installation (in the Colorado Front Range) > yesterday that was installed ~2008. It's still working well but homeowner > is considering either adding another array or swapping out the 170w modules > for something newer to increase his output. It's a very nicely done > installation, clean, and in good working order, with Schuco modules. Before > proposing that we could swap out modules we need to verify that clamps for > new modules could be purchased. This residential roof racking is ROUND > rails, about 2-2.5" in diameter. Does anyone have an idea of what brand > this might be and if components are still available? > > Rebecca Lundberg > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat Nov 2 22:32:12 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 19:32:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glenn, OK, while I would prefer to not get into compiling code onto an ARM, my main question would be, how do you get the voltage value into the Arduino? Rectify the AC voltage and then voltage divide down to the chip input pin? Mark On 11/2/2019 10:14 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > Sounds like a job for an Arduino... > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Mark Frye > *Date: *Sat, Nov 2, 2019 1:05 PM > *To: *re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > ; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect > > Folks, > > Can anyone share a parts list for setting up a AC couple disconnect? > > I want to couple a > non-frequency response grid-tied inverter to a > battery based stand-alone inverter. > > I have only 8 amps output from the GT inverters, so can use 10A relay > contacts. > > I want a device to monitor AC voltage and latch a coil on when it raises > above a set point (250VAC). I then want a timer to release the latch > after about 1 hour. > > Sound about right? Are any vendors selling such a device? How about a > parts list from Digikey? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org /maillist.ht ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Nov 2 23:31:13 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 20:31:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark: I think the task is to measure battery voltage and, if it gets too high, generate a signal to disconnect the AC coupled feed to the AC bus. Therefore the sample is DC, not AC. Simple matter of voltage dividing into an acceptable range. I submit that there are probably a lot of ways to skin this cat. For example a Trace C40 charge controller in diversion mode should give you a high state signal to open an AC relay on the grid-tied inverter AC output: BatteryàC40 in diversionàRelay on output of GT inverter The question is, what application is robust enough to allow adequate confidence? Some people with experience can “roll-their-own” and build solid assemblies that can handle the rigors of field use. If I am applying a solution to a remote site with a high requirement for reliability, I am looking for professionally manufactured off-the-shelf equipment. At home, I can Rube Goldberg as much as I want. William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Mark Frye *Sent:* Saturday, November 2, 2019 7:32 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect Glenn, OK, while I would prefer to not get into compiling code onto an ARM, my main question would be, how do you get the voltage value into the Arduino? Rectify the AC voltage and then voltage divide down to the chip input pin? Mark On 11/2/2019 10:14 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: Sounds like a job for an Arduino... -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ *From: *Mark Frye *Date: *Sat, Nov 2, 2019 1:05 PM *To: *re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org; *Cc: * *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect Folks, Can anyone share a parts list for setting up a AC couple disconnect? I want to couple a non-frequency response grid-tied inverter to a battery based stand-alone inverter. I have only 8 amps output from the GT inverters, so can use 10A relay contacts. I want a device to monitor AC voltage and latch a coil on when it raises above a set point (250VAC). I then want a timer to release the latch after about 1 hour. Sound about right? Are any vendors selling such a device? How about a parts list from Digikey? Thanks, Mark Frye _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <%20RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Nov 3 08:46:34 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 06:46:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stiffening an AC buss Message-ID: Hi wrenches, I have a site visit coming up on a hydro system, I believe its ~ 20 kW range, and an older unit, 30+ years old. This info may or may not be reliable until I see the site. However, I'd like some options to consider while I'm looking at their system. My hydro knowledge is weak but I enjoy it. They experience browning out when certain loads kick on. I assume they have checked the diversion load controller(s) to see if its dropping and adding loads as it should. I also assume that they have checked the rotor assembly, brushes etc and they are in good working order. The first thing I'll do is call the manufacturer and see if they have any ideas, but I'm sure they will recommend a new turbine/generator assembly with better voltage regulation. I am wondering if there is any type of inverter can operate in parallel with the hydro output that can inject current (maybe VARS as well) onto the AC buss to help stabilize AC voltage and frequency during these events. It seems like the new smart inverters can do this but I have no experience with this. Maybe the Sunny Island? Im just starting to research this but I always appreciate your input. Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Sun Nov 3 10:04:52 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 15:04:52 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stiffening an AC buss In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac, Most Multi-Mode inverters I know of should work for your intentions. You feed the hydro source into the generator input terminals on the multimode inverter, and you program the inverter in "generator support mode," and then you program the inverter with the maximum stable output of the hydro plant (or maximum generator load), and when your load draws surges above that maximum kW, then the multi-mode inverter will inject power to support the hydro-generator. With this configuration, it is important that all of the power being used on-site is going through that multi-mode inverter so that it can monitor exactly what is being used, so it can support the hydro-generator as needed. Then, when the site is using less energy, the multi-mode inverter will replenish its batteries from the hydro-generator. You might have to play around with the programming to figure out what kW will be the best value for the "generator maximum load" setpoint. Just make sure that whatever you use has a suitable generator support mode. I know Outback does, and I believe that Schneider and all the other big brands do too. Now the SMA Sunny Island does have one small advantage here, it is the only one in the pack that I know of that does the following... While doing everything we just talked about, it is capable of injecting vars rather than only pure power, so then the Hydro Generator only has to put out pure power. Of course, the SMA SI has to be programmed right for that to work out. By keeping a unity power factor on the output from the hydro plant, it can put out the power more efficiently, and all the Vars for the site can be supplied by the SI. Now, this isn't a sure-fire for not ever having a small flicker. In generator support mode, there is always a slight lag between when the surge load comes on, and when the generator starts injecting power so there may be a slight flicker right at the moment a surge load comes on, but it won't be like a real brown out, just a momentary flicker. The old incandescent lights don't reveal this flicker as much because they dim more slowly, but with the LEDs, it might be noticeable. Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Mac Lewis Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2019 6:46 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stiffening an AC buss Hi wrenches, I have a site visit coming up on a hydro system, I believe its ~ 20 kW range, and an older unit, 30+ years old. This info may or may not be reliable until I see the site. However, I'd like some options to consider while I'm looking at their system. My hydro knowledge is weak but I enjoy it. They experience browning out when certain loads kick on. I assume they have checked the diversion load controller(s) to see if its dropping and adding loads as it should. I also assume that they have checked the rotor assembly, brushes etc and they are in good working order. The first thing I'll do is call the manufacturer and see if they have any ideas, but I'm sure they will recommend a new turbine/generator assembly with better voltage regulation. I am wondering if there is any type of inverter can operate in parallel with the hydro output that can inject current (maybe VARS as well) onto the AC buss to help stabilize AC voltage and frequency during these events. It seems like the new smart inverters can do this but I have no experience with this. Maybe the Sunny Island? Im just starting to research this but I always appreciate your input. Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sun Nov 3 10:30:43 2019 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 07:30:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stiffening an AC buss In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Canyon Hydro and Thomson & Howe Controller? There are all kinds of things that can be done to upgrade late 20th century hydro systems. Michael > On Nov 3, 2019, at 5:46 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi wrenches, > > I have a site visit coming up on a hydro system, I believe its ~ 20 kW range, and an older unit, 30+ years old. This info may or may not be reliable until I see the site. However, I'd like some options to consider while I'm looking at their system. My hydro knowledge is weak but I enjoy it. > > They experience browning out when certain loads kick on. I assume they have checked the diversion load controller(s) to see if its dropping and adding loads as it should. I also assume that they have checked the rotor assembly, brushes etc and they are in good working order. > > The first thing I'll do is call the manufacturer and see if they have any ideas, but I'm sure they will recommend a new turbine/generator assembly with better voltage regulation. > > I am wondering if there is any type of inverter can operate in parallel with the hydro output that can inject current (maybe VARS as well) onto the AC buss to help stabilize AC voltage and frequency during these events. It seems like the new smart inverters can do this but I have no experience with this. Maybe the Sunny Island? > > Im just starting to research this but I always appreciate your input. > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sun Nov 3 12:38:51 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 09:38:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> Hi William, Thanks, you bring up issues that are important to me here. In particular, my situation is that the GT inverter is inter-tied a couple sub panels upstream of where I want to put the BB inverter. The distance is long, so I am looking for a solution where I don't have to run a cable between the two. In general, I do wonder about using AC line voltage rise to take the Gt inverters off line. The main goal is to prevent excess voltage at the battery, so monitoring battery voltage is most direct, and there are simple solutions for that. Is AC line voltage a suitable metric for achieving the same goal? Here is where I could use Wrench knowledge to confirm my thinking, that being: - With excess energy in the system, the charger moves it into the battery, raising it's voltage until it reaches it high charging voltage set point - Once the battery reaches it's high voltage set point, the charger stops putting energy into the battery - With no other place to put the excess energy, the AC voltage rises Am I getting this right, the reason to disconnect AC coupled inverters when the battery if full is not to prevent the batteries from being overcharged, but rather to prevent the AC line from becoming unstable? I am hoping this is correct and that with $200 of industrial grade devices from Digikey I can implement a robust control that will disconnect the GT inverters before the AC line goes so high that the BB inverter faults. Mark From brian at solarenergy.org Sun Nov 3 12:53:30 2019 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 09:53:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> With frequency-on/off, frequency power control, or other “inverter integrated” control based on battery voltage/state of charge there is also control in regards to when the ac coupled inverters come back on. And yes, this is definitely needed to prevent overcharge (or get three-stage charging from the AC coupled system). Of course if it doesn’t work, yes the bus voltage will rise and trip the BB offline. AC bus voltage will go down as soon as the ac couple inverters are kicked off, so if that’s your measured value unless your control system has a delay or other component to control reconnection and charging i think it could essentially chatter off and on and off and... Brian > On Nov 3, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > > Hi William, > > Thanks, you bring up issues that are important to me here. > > In particular, my situation is that the GT inverter is inter-tied a couple sub panels upstream of where I want to put the BB inverter. The distance is long, so I am looking for a solution where I don't have to run a cable between the two. > > In general, I do wonder about using AC line voltage rise to take the Gt inverters off line. The main goal is to prevent excess voltage at the battery, so monitoring battery voltage is most direct, and there are simple solutions for that. > > Is AC line voltage a suitable metric for achieving the same goal? > > Here is where I could use Wrench knowledge to confirm my thinking, that being: > > - With excess energy in the system, the charger moves it into the battery, raising it's voltage until it reaches it high charging voltage set point > > - Once the battery reaches it's high voltage set point, the charger stops putting energy into the battery > > - With no other place to put the excess energy, the AC voltage rises > > Am I getting this right, the reason to disconnect AC coupled inverters when the battery if full is not to prevent the batteries from being overcharged, but rather to prevent the AC line from becoming unstable? > > I am hoping this is correct and that with $200 of industrial grade devices from Digikey I can implement a robust control that will disconnect the GT inverters before the AC line goes so high that the BB inverter faults. > > Mark > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sun Nov 3 13:00:53 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 10:00:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> OK Brian, So I think you are confirming that monitoring AC side voltage is an acceptable way of deciding when to disconnect the GT inverters. With my parts list, I have a delay time that would hold the GT inverters off-line for some period of time (I would probably set to 1 hour) before coming back on line after tipping off. Mark On 11/3/2019 9:53 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > With frequency-on/off, frequency power control, or other “inverter integrated” control based on battery voltage/state of charge there is also control in regards to when the ac coupled inverters come back on. And yes, this is definitely needed to prevent overcharge (or get three-stage charging from the AC coupled system). Of course if it doesn’t work, yes the bus voltage will rise and trip the BB offline. > > AC bus voltage will go down as soon as the ac couple inverters are kicked off, so if that’s your measured value unless your control system has a delay or other component to control reconnection and charging i think it could essentially chatter off and on and off and... > > Brian > >> On Nov 3, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Mark Frye wrote: >> >> Hi William, >> >> Thanks, you bring up issues that are important to me here. >> >> In particular, my situation is that the GT inverter is inter-tied a couple sub panels upstream of where I want to put the BB inverter. The distance is long, so I am looking for a solution where I don't have to run a cable between the two. >> >> In general, I do wonder about using AC line voltage rise to take the Gt inverters off line. The main goal is to prevent excess voltage at the battery, so monitoring battery voltage is most direct, and there are simple solutions for that. >> >> Is AC line voltage a suitable metric for achieving the same goal? >> >> Here is where I could use Wrench knowledge to confirm my thinking, that being: >> >> - With excess energy in the system, the charger moves it into the battery, raising it's voltage until it reaches it high charging voltage set point >> >> - Once the battery reaches it's high voltage set point, the charger stops putting energy into the battery >> >> - With no other place to put the excess energy, the AC voltage rises >> >> Am I getting this right, the reason to disconnect AC coupled inverters when the battery if full is not to prevent the batteries from being overcharged, but rather to prevent the AC line from becoming unstable? >> >> I am hoping this is correct and that with $200 of industrial grade devices from Digikey I can implement a robust control that will disconnect the GT inverters before the AC line goes so high that the BB inverter faults. >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From brian at solarenergy.org Sun Nov 3 13:26:14 2019 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 10:26:14 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> References: <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Hey now I didn’t say that! Brian > On Nov 3, 2019, at 10:01 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > > OK Brian, > > So I think you are confirming that monitoring AC side voltage is an acceptable way of deciding when to disconnect the GT inverters. > > With my parts list, I have a delay time that would hold the GT inverters off-line for some period of time (I would probably set to 1 hour) before coming back on line after tipping off. > > > Mark > >> On 11/3/2019 9:53 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >> With frequency-on/off, frequency power control, or other “inverter integrated” control based on battery voltage/state of charge there is also control in regards to when the ac coupled inverters come back on. And yes, this is definitely needed to prevent overcharge (or get three-stage charging from the AC coupled system). Of course if it doesn’t work, yes the bus voltage will rise and trip the BB offline. >> >> AC bus voltage will go down as soon as the ac couple inverters are kicked off, so if that’s your measured value unless your control system has a delay or other component to control reconnection and charging i think it could essentially chatter off and on and off and... >> >> Brian >> >>>> On Nov 3, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Mark Frye wrote: >>> >>> Hi William, >>> >>> Thanks, you bring up issues that are important to me here. >>> >>> In particular, my situation is that the GT inverter is inter-tied a couple sub panels upstream of where I want to put the BB inverter. The distance is long, so I am looking for a solution where I don't have to run a cable between the two. >>> >>> In general, I do wonder about using AC line voltage rise to take the Gt inverters off line. The main goal is to prevent excess voltage at the battery, so monitoring battery voltage is most direct, and there are simple solutions for that. >>> >>> Is AC line voltage a suitable metric for achieving the same goal? >>> >>> Here is where I could use Wrench knowledge to confirm my thinking, that being: >>> >>> - With excess energy in the system, the charger moves it into the battery, raising it's voltage until it reaches it high charging voltage set point >>> >>> - Once the battery reaches it's high voltage set point, the charger stops putting energy into the battery >>> >>> - With no other place to put the excess energy, the AC voltage rises >>> >>> Am I getting this right, the reason to disconnect AC coupled inverters when the battery if full is not to prevent the batteries from being overcharged, but rather to prevent the AC line from becoming unstable? >>> >>> I am hoping this is correct and that with $200 of industrial grade devices from Digikey I can implement a robust control that will disconnect the GT inverters before the AC line goes so high that the BB inverter faults. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From brian at solarenergy.org Sun Nov 3 13:27:07 2019 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 10:27:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> References: <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: More like “could work let us know how it goes!” Brian > On Nov 3, 2019, at 10:01 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > > OK Brian, > > So I think you are confirming that monitoring AC side voltage is an acceptable way of deciding when to disconnect the GT inverters. > > With my parts list, I have a delay time that would hold the GT inverters off-line for some period of time (I would probably set to 1 hour) before coming back on line after tipping off. > > > Mark > >> On 11/3/2019 9:53 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >> With frequency-on/off, frequency power control, or other “inverter integrated” control based on battery voltage/state of charge there is also control in regards to when the ac coupled inverters come back on. And yes, this is definitely needed to prevent overcharge (or get three-stage charging from the AC coupled system). Of course if it doesn’t work, yes the bus voltage will rise and trip the BB offline. >> >> AC bus voltage will go down as soon as the ac couple inverters are kicked off, so if that’s your measured value unless your control system has a delay or other component to control reconnection and charging i think it could essentially chatter off and on and off and... >> >> Brian >> >>>> On Nov 3, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Mark Frye wrote: >>> >>> Hi William, >>> >>> Thanks, you bring up issues that are important to me here. >>> >>> In particular, my situation is that the GT inverter is inter-tied a couple sub panels upstream of where I want to put the BB inverter. The distance is long, so I am looking for a solution where I don't have to run a cable between the two. >>> >>> In general, I do wonder about using AC line voltage rise to take the Gt inverters off line. The main goal is to prevent excess voltage at the battery, so monitoring battery voltage is most direct, and there are simple solutions for that. >>> >>> Is AC line voltage a suitable metric for achieving the same goal? >>> >>> Here is where I could use Wrench knowledge to confirm my thinking, that being: >>> >>> - With excess energy in the system, the charger moves it into the battery, raising it's voltage until it reaches it high charging voltage set point >>> >>> - Once the battery reaches it's high voltage set point, the charger stops putting energy into the battery >>> >>> - With no other place to put the excess energy, the AC voltage rises >>> >>> Am I getting this right, the reason to disconnect AC coupled inverters when the battery if full is not to prevent the batteries from being overcharged, but rather to prevent the AC line from becoming unstable? >>> >>> I am hoping this is correct and that with $200 of industrial grade devices from Digikey I can implement a robust control that will disconnect the GT inverters before the AC line goes so high that the BB inverter faults. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Nov 3 13:29:52 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 10:29:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <441a2d72253a1a0c740115e03b4b1006@127.0.0.1> Marc, High or low battery cut-out on a battery based inverter is lights out. There is usually a warning period that becomes a fault. I still think this is crazy for offgrid unless it is a very large system 20+KW of battery inverters in a microgrid type mindset with onsight knowledgeable people. Also lots of DC coupled solar. Forgive me if I have missed something here as I have installed about 20 gensets for my California wildfire residents last month. Good Luck. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 09:38:51 -0800, Mark Frye wrote: > Hi William, > > Thanks, you bring up issues that are important to me here. > > In particular, my situation is that the GT inverter is inter-tied a > couple sub panels upstream of where I want to put the BB inverter. The > distance is long, so I am looking for a solution where I don't have to > run a cable between the two. > > In general, I do wonder about using AC line voltage rise to take the Gt > inverters off line. The main goal is to prevent excess voltage at the > battery, so monitoring battery voltage is most direct, and there are > simple solutions for that. > > Is AC line voltage a suitable metric for achieving the same goal? > > Here is where I could use Wrench knowledge to confirm my thinking, that > being: > > - With excess energy in the system, the charger moves it into the > battery, raising it's voltage until it reaches it high charging voltage > set point > > - Once the battery reaches it's high voltage set point, the charger > stops putting energy into the battery > > - With no other place to put the excess energy, the AC voltage rises > > Am I getting this right, the reason to disconnect AC coupled inverters > when the battery if full is not to prevent the batteries from being > overcharged, but rather to prevent the AC line from becoming unstable? > > I am hoping this is correct and that with $200 of industrial grade > devices from Digikey I can implement a robust control that will > disconnect the GT inverters before the AC line goes so high that the BB > inverter faults. > > Mark > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From william at millersolar.com Sun Nov 3 12:56:16 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 09:56:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Mark: I do not think line voltage is an appropriate criteria for controlling an AC coupled system for these reasons: 1. My understanding of how an AC coupled system works does not match yours. The concept is still black magic to me, but as I understand it, when you use GT inverters to charge batteries through a battery inverter, there is no charge control. This is the essence of this problem. The batteries will over-charge if you do not intervene. Remember, in an AC coupled system you are charging batteries by running power *into* the *output* of the battery inverter, or backwards to the normal power flow. I understand this is why the normal charge control system does not work. 2. If the battery charging does not stop, there can be no cause and effect that will cause line voltage to rise. 3. Even if 2 above were not true, batteries, as they approach full charge, taper their use of charging source, so you cannot expect any significant change in charge current when charging stops. 4. There are too many other factors that can affect line voltage. If you set some circuit to do something when live voltage changes beyond a certain thresholds, this trigger will happen randomly as line voltage changes for external reasons. I hate to break the news, but you need to find some way to communicate the battery voltage to the GT inverter output. You don’t have to run the GT inverter AC output all the way to the battery inverter panel, but you will need to get a control signal connection between the two systems. Caveat: I don’t pretend to know thoroughly about how AC coupled systems work, but this is how I understand them. Maybe others can verify my conclusions. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2019 9:39 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect Hi William, Thanks, you bring up issues that are important to me here. In particular, my situation is that the GT inverter is inter-tied a couple sub panels upstream of where I want to put the BB inverter. The distance is long, so I am looking for a solution where I don't have to run a cable between the two. In general, I do wonder about using AC line voltage rise to take the Gt inverters off line. The main goal is to prevent excess voltage at the battery, so monitoring battery voltage is most direct, and there are simple solutions for that. Is AC line voltage a suitable metric for achieving the same goal? Here is where I could use Wrench knowledge to confirm my thinking, that being: - With excess energy in the system, the charger moves it into the battery, raising it's voltage until it reaches it high charging voltage set point - Once the battery reaches it's high voltage set point, the charger stops putting energy into the battery - With no other place to put the excess energy, the AC voltage rises Am I getting this right, the reason to disconnect AC coupled inverters when the battery if full is not to prevent the batteries from being overcharged, but rather to prevent the AC line from becoming unstable? I am hoping this is correct and that with $200 of industrial grade devices from Digikey I can implement a robust control that will disconnect the GT inverters before the AC line goes so high that the BB inverter faults. Mark _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Sun Nov 3 13:44:18 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 18:44:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org>, <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Mark, I think that you're not understanding what Brian is saying. In any case, your proposal will not work with most equipment. There may be some equipment that would work that way, but not anything I'm aware of. Let me tell you what will happen in a normal system, assuming that the manufacturer hasn't built in an AC coupling control mechanism (like frequency shifting) The BB inverter will maintain a stable AC voltage by allowing the GT inverters to back feed into the batteries. If the batteries start overcharging, the BB inverter will not raise the AC voltage in response. What will happen instead is that there will be no measurable difference in the AC voltage, but the DC voltage will continue to rise until it hits the multimode BB inverter's high battery cut out voltage, and the BB inverter will shut off, and your entire AC line will drop to 0 volts. This will turn off the GT inverter, and as the battery voltage falls back into an acceptable range, the BB inverter may or may not automatically turn back on. If it does automatically turn back on, then the GT inverter will wait for 5 minutes and then they'll start back-feeding until the battery voltage goes above the overvoltage setpoint, and the whole system shuts off again. So this is what is normally happening if you hear about an AC coupling system that shuts off once every 6 minutes or so during the day... And yes, I have seen a system where the homeowner was told that this was normal, and it's just how the system was supposed to work.. So if the inverter has an AC Coupling control mechanism, and that AC coupling mode is turned on, then it will change the characteristics of the AC line in order to notify the GT inverter to turn off, or to decrease its output. The only way that I've ever heard about any manufacturers implementing this is through frequency shifting. Now it would be perfectly possible to do it through voltage shifting (or voltage raising) and I've talked to some engineers who said that on a technological level, it wouldn't be any harder for a manufacturer to do voltage shifting than frequency shifting, but no manufacturer has actually pursued that. So basically, your only options are 1. use a BB inverter that has frequency shifting control for AC coupling 2. run a wire from the battery room to the GT inverters that you can use for controlling them based on the battery voltage 3. experiment with something custom and just expect a high probability of eventual failure (but let us know how it goes) * You might be able to find a device that would read the battery voltage, and then transmit that information wirelessly, then have another device at the GT inverters that decodes that information and then drives a relay accordingly. (I have no idea how to do this, for me, this is in the hypothetical realm.) Or maybe it could transmit the info via PLC? 4. or the fourth option is to set the BB inverter's high battery cut out voltage to just above the absorb voltage and just plan on the power going out multiple times per sunny day. I wouldn't go for this one unless it's your own home and you're feeling very adventuresome. Essentially the bottom line is that monitoring the AC line will never work unless the BB inverter has a built-in AC coupling control mechanism, then you'll be monitoring for the frequency rather than the voltage. Sorry for not having anything more helpful to say. Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Mark Frye Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2019 11:00 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect OK Brian, So I think you are confirming that monitoring AC side voltage is an acceptable way of deciding when to disconnect the GT inverters. With my parts list, I have a delay time that would hold the GT inverters off-line for some period of time (I would probably set to 1 hour) before coming back on line after tipping off. Mark On 11/3/2019 9:53 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > With frequency-on/off, frequency power control, or other “inverter integrated” control based on battery voltage/state of charge there is also control in regards to when the ac coupled inverters come back on. And yes, this is definitely needed to prevent overcharge (or get three-stage charging from the AC coupled system). Of course if it doesn’t work, yes the bus voltage will rise and trip the BB offline. > > AC bus voltage will go down as soon as the ac couple inverters are kicked off, so if that’s your measured value unless your control system has a delay or other component to control reconnection and charging i think it could essentially chatter off and on and off and... > > Brian > >> On Nov 3, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Mark Frye wrote: >> >> Hi William, >> >> Thanks, you bring up issues that are important to me here. >> >> In particular, my situation is that the GT inverter is inter-tied a couple sub panels upstream of where I want to put the BB inverter. The distance is long, so I am looking for a solution where I don't have to run a cable between the two. >> >> In general, I do wonder about using AC line voltage rise to take the Gt inverters off line. The main goal is to prevent excess voltage at the battery, so monitoring battery voltage is most direct, and there are simple solutions for that. >> >> Is AC line voltage a suitable metric for achieving the same goal? >> >> Here is where I could use Wrench knowledge to confirm my thinking, that being: >> >> - With excess energy in the system, the charger moves it into the battery, raising it's voltage until it reaches it high charging voltage set point >> >> - Once the battery reaches it's high voltage set point, the charger stops putting energy into the battery >> >> - With no other place to put the excess energy, the AC voltage rises >> >> Am I getting this right, the reason to disconnect AC coupled inverters when the battery if full is not to prevent the batteries from being overcharged, but rather to prevent the AC line from becoming unstable? >> >> I am hoping this is correct and that with $200 of industrial grade devices from Digikey I can implement a robust control that will disconnect the GT inverters before the AC line goes so high that the BB inverter faults. >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sun Nov 3 13:58:06 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 10:58:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> OK, the posts are coming in on the "no" side, but with uncertainty about how any given BB inverter might work. I still think that the BB charger is in charge (no pun) of sending power to the battery and if it the battery is at it's set point then the duty cycle on the transistors in the rectifier go down - zero. At that point the impedance of the AC line would appear to go up. In response the GT inverters would increase there output voltage in an attempt to over come the higher impedance. The voltage monitoring switch that I spec'd has a response delay setting. If I am running in offgrid mode, the main worry is voltage sag due to load. So generally, the inverter would be running at or below AC voltage set point. There may be spikes above voltage set point when a load is disconnected, but I could filter that out with the delay on the sensor. Still, this is why I am asking. Anyone on the list have more confidence in their understand of BB inverters in off-grid mode with AC coupled GT inverters? Mark On 11/3/2019 10:44 AM, Kienan Maxfield wrote: > Mark, > > I think that you're not understanding what Brian is saying. In any > case, your proposal will not work with most equipment. There may be > some equipment that would work that way, but not anything I'm aware > of. Let me tell you what will happen in a normal system, assuming that > the manufacturer hasn't built in an AC coupling control mechanism > (like frequency shifting) > > The BB inverter will maintain a stable AC voltage by allowing the GT > inverters to back feed into the batteries. If the batteries start > overcharging, the BB inverter will not raise the AC voltage in > response. What will happen instead is that there will be no measurable > difference in the AC voltage, but the DC voltage will continue to rise > until it hits the multimode BB inverter's high battery cut out > voltage, and the BB inverter will shut off, and your entire AC line > will drop to 0 volts. This will turn off the GT inverter, and as the > battery voltage falls back into an acceptable range, the BB inverter > may or may not automatically turn back on. If it does automatically > turn back on, then the GT inverter will wait for 5 minutes and then > they'll start back-feeding until the battery voltage goes above the > overvoltage setpoint, and the whole system shuts off again. So this is > what is normally happening if you hear about an AC coupling system > that shuts off once every 6 minutes or so during the day... And yes, I > have seen a system where the homeowner was told that this was normal, > and it's just how the system was supposed to work.. > > So if the inverter has an AC Coupling control mechanism, and that AC > coupling mode is turned on, then it will change the characteristics of > the AC line in order to notify the GT inverter to turn off, or to > decrease its output. The only way that I've ever heard about any > manufacturers implementing this is through frequency shifting. Now it > would be perfectly possible to do it through voltage shifting (or > voltage raising) and I've talked to some engineers who said that on a > technological level, it wouldn't be any harder for a manufacturer to > do voltage shifting than frequency shifting, but no manufacturer has > actually pursued that. So basically, your only options are > > 1. use a BB inverter that has frequency shifting control for AC coupling > 2. run a wire from the battery room to the GT inverters that you can > use for controlling them based on the battery voltage > 3. experiment with something custom and just expect a high > probability of eventual failure (but let us know how it goes) > 1. You might be able to find a device that would read the battery > voltage, and then transmit that information wirelessly, then > have another device at the GT inverters that decodes that > information and then drives a relay accordingly. (I have no > idea how to do this, for me, this is in the hypothetical > realm.) Or maybe it could transmit the info via PLC? > 4. or the fourth option is to set the BB inverter's high battery cut > out voltage to just above the absorb voltage and just plan on the > power going out multiple times per sunny day. I wouldn't go for > this one unless it's your own home and you're feeling very > adventuresome. > > Essentially the bottom line is that monitoring the AC line will never > work unless the BB inverter has a built-in AC coupling control > mechanism, then you'll be monitoring for the frequency rather than the > voltage. > > Sorry for not having anything more helpful to say. > Kienan > > *Maxfield Solar* > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* > * > **(801) 631-5584 (Cell)** > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on > behalf of Mark Frye > *Sent:* Sunday, November 3, 2019 11:00 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect > OK Brian, > > So I think you are confirming that monitoring AC side voltage is an > acceptable way of deciding when to disconnect the GT inverters. > > With my parts list, I have a delay time that would hold the GT inverters > off-line for some period of time (I would probably set to 1 hour) before > coming back on line after tipping off. > > > Mark > > On 11/3/2019 9:53 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > > With frequency-on/off, frequency power control, or other “inverter > integrated” control based on battery voltage/state of charge there is > also control in regards to when the ac coupled inverters come back on. > And yes, this is definitely needed to prevent overcharge (or get > three-stage charging from the  AC coupled system). Of course if it > doesn’t work, yes the bus voltage will rise and trip the BB offline. > > > > AC bus voltage will go down as soon as the ac couple inverters are > kicked off, so if that’s your measured value unless your control > system has a delay or other component to control reconnection and > charging i think it could essentially chatter off and on and off and... > > > > Brian > > > >> On Nov 3, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > >> > >> Hi William, > >> > >> Thanks, you bring up issues that are important to me here. > >> > >> In particular, my situation is that the GT inverter is inter-tied a > couple sub panels upstream of where I want to put the BB inverter. The > distance is long, so I am looking for a solution where I don't have to > run a cable between the two. > >> > >> In general, I do wonder about using AC line voltage rise to take > the Gt inverters off line. The main goal is to prevent excess voltage > at the battery, so monitoring battery voltage is most direct, and > there are simple solutions for that. > >> > >> Is AC line voltage a suitable metric for achieving the same goal? > >> > >> Here is where I could use Wrench knowledge to confirm my thinking, > that being: > >> > >> - With excess energy in the system, the charger moves it into the > battery, raising it's voltage until it reaches it high charging > voltage set point > >> > >> - Once the battery reaches it's high voltage set point, the charger > stops putting energy into the battery > >> > >> - With no other place to put the excess energy, the AC voltage rises > >> > >> Am I getting this right, the reason to disconnect AC coupled > inverters when the battery if full is not to prevent the batteries > from being overcharged, but rather to prevent the AC line from > becoming unstable? > >> > >> I am hoping this is correct and that with $200 of industrial grade > devices from Digikey I can implement a robust control that will > disconnect the GT inverters before the AC line goes so high that the > BB inverter faults. > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Sun Nov 3 14:13:45 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 19:13:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> , <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Mark, Sorry, my post must not have been perfectly clear... I have total confidence in how the BB inverters work, and no, the GT inverter there will be no measurable deduction in impedance, even if you have a very sensitive sensor and there are no other loads on the system. It just doesn't work that way. It is impossible for the inverter to reduce the current into the batteries when it's being fed into the inverter through its output. And that's true no matter what inverter we're talking about. It is impossible for it to increase it's impedance that way. The only thing I would say is that if you were an engineer at an inverter manufacturer, it would be possible for you to design an inverter that could change it's output voltage based on the battery voltage, but nobody does that. That's why they change the output frequency. I think my last email layed out the 4 possible options, and I am confident that there is no other option that would work at all. These were my four options... 1. Use a BB inverter that has frequency shifting control for AC coupling 2. Run a wire from the battery room to the GT inverters that you can use for controlling them based on the battery voltage 3. Experiment with something custom and just expect a high probability of eventual failure (but let us know how it goes) * You might be able to find a device that would read the battery voltage, and then transmit that information wirelessly, then have another device at the GT inverters that decodes that information and then drives a relay accordingly. (I have no idea how to do this, for me, this is in the hypothetical realm.) Or maybe it could transmit the info via PLC? 4. Or the fourth option is to set the BB inverter's high battery cut out voltage to just above the absorb voltage and just plan on the power going out multiple times per sunny day. I wouldn't go for this one unless it's your own home and you're feeling very adventuresome. Sorry for the bad news, but unless you have frequency shifting, it's totally impossible to control the GT inverter using the AC line. Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Mark Frye Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2019 11:58 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect OK, the posts are coming in on the "no" side, but with uncertainty about how any given BB inverter might work. I still think that the BB charger is in charge (no pun) of sending power to the battery and if it the battery is at it's set point then the duty cycle on the transistors in the rectifier go down - zero. At that point the impedance of the AC line would appear to go up. In response the GT inverters would increase there output voltage in an attempt to over come the higher impedance. The voltage monitoring switch that I spec'd has a response delay setting. If I am running in offgrid mode, the main worry is voltage sag due to load. So generally, the inverter would be running at or below AC voltage set point. There may be spikes above voltage set point when a load is disconnected, but I could filter that out with the delay on the sensor. Still, this is why I am asking. Anyone on the list have more confidence in their understand of BB inverters in off-grid mode with AC coupled GT inverters? Mark On 11/3/2019 10:44 AM, Kienan Maxfield wrote: Mark, I think that you're not understanding what Brian is saying. In any case, your proposal will not work with most equipment. There may be some equipment that would work that way, but not anything I'm aware of. Let me tell you what will happen in a normal system, assuming that the manufacturer hasn't built in an AC coupling control mechanism (like frequency shifting) The BB inverter will maintain a stable AC voltage by allowing the GT inverters to back feed into the batteries. If the batteries start overcharging, the BB inverter will not raise the AC voltage in response. What will happen instead is that there will be no measurable difference in the AC voltage, but the DC voltage will continue to rise until it hits the multimode BB inverter's high battery cut out voltage, and the BB inverter will shut off, and your entire AC line will drop to 0 volts. This will turn off the GT inverter, and as the battery voltage falls back into an acceptable range, the BB inverter may or may not automatically turn back on. If it does automatically turn back on, then the GT inverter will wait for 5 minutes and then they'll start back-feeding until the battery voltage goes above the overvoltage setpoint, and the whole system shuts off again. So this is what is normally happening if you hear about an AC coupling system that shuts off once every 6 minutes or so during the day... And yes, I have seen a system where the homeowner was told that this was normal, and it's just how the system was supposed to work.. So if the inverter has an AC Coupling control mechanism, and that AC coupling mode is turned on, then it will change the characteristics of the AC line in order to notify the GT inverter to turn off, or to decrease its output. The only way that I've ever heard about any manufacturers implementing this is through frequency shifting. Now it would be perfectly possible to do it through voltage shifting (or voltage raising) and I've talked to some engineers who said that on a technological level, it wouldn't be any harder for a manufacturer to do voltage shifting than frequency shifting, but no manufacturer has actually pursued that. So basically, your only options are 1. use a BB inverter that has frequency shifting control for AC coupling 2. run a wire from the battery room to the GT inverters that you can use for controlling them based on the battery voltage 3. experiment with something custom and just expect a high probability of eventual failure (but let us know how it goes) * You might be able to find a device that would read the battery voltage, and then transmit that information wirelessly, then have another device at the GT inverters that decodes that information and then drives a relay accordingly. (I have no idea how to do this, for me, this is in the hypothetical realm.) Or maybe it could transmit the info via PLC? 4. or the fourth option is to set the BB inverter's high battery cut out voltage to just above the absorb voltage and just plan on the power going out multiple times per sunny day. I wouldn't go for this one unless it's your own home and you're feeling very adventuresome. Essentially the bottom line is that monitoring the AC line will never work unless the BB inverter has a built-in AC coupling control mechanism, then you'll be monitoring for the frequency rather than the voltage. Sorry for not having anything more helpful to say. Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Mark Frye Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2019 11:00 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect OK Brian, So I think you are confirming that monitoring AC side voltage is an acceptable way of deciding when to disconnect the GT inverters. With my parts list, I have a delay time that would hold the GT inverters off-line for some period of time (I would probably set to 1 hour) before coming back on line after tipping off. Mark On 11/3/2019 9:53 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > With frequency-on/off, frequency power control, or other “inverter integrated” control based on battery voltage/state of charge there is also control in regards to when the ac coupled inverters come back on. And yes, this is definitely needed to prevent overcharge (or get three-stage charging from the AC coupled system). Of course if it doesn’t work, yes the bus voltage will rise and trip the BB offline. > > AC bus voltage will go down as soon as the ac couple inverters are kicked off, so if that’s your measured value unless your control system has a delay or other component to control reconnection and charging i think it could essentially chatter off and on and off and... > > Brian > >> On Nov 3, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Mark Frye wrote: >> >> Hi William, >> >> Thanks, you bring up issues that are important to me here. >> >> In particular, my situation is that the GT inverter is inter-tied a couple sub panels upstream of where I want to put the BB inverter. The distance is long, so I am looking for a solution where I don't have to run a cable between the two. >> >> In general, I do wonder about using AC line voltage rise to take the Gt inverters off line. The main goal is to prevent excess voltage at the battery, so monitoring battery voltage is most direct, and there are simple solutions for that. >> >> Is AC line voltage a suitable metric for achieving the same goal? >> >> Here is where I could use Wrench knowledge to confirm my thinking, that being: >> >> - With excess energy in the system, the charger moves it into the battery, raising it's voltage until it reaches it high charging voltage set point >> >> - Once the battery reaches it's high voltage set point, the charger stops putting energy into the battery >> >> - With no other place to put the excess energy, the AC voltage rises >> >> Am I getting this right, the reason to disconnect AC coupled inverters when the battery if full is not to prevent the batteries from being overcharged, but rather to prevent the AC line from becoming unstable? >> >> I am hoping this is correct and that with $200 of industrial grade devices from Digikey I can implement a robust control that will disconnect the GT inverters before the AC line goes so high that the BB inverter faults. >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Nov 3 14:26:00 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 14:26:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect Message-ID: Doesn't the BB inverter have a relay output that can be linked to 'batteries are full' and energize a relay to drop out the AC line to the GT inverter, thus causing it to go offline?-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Mark FryeDate: Sun, Nov 3, 2019 1:58 PMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect OK, the posts are coming in on the "no" side, but with uncertainty about how any given BB inverter might work. I still think that the BB charger is in charge (no pun) of sending power to the battery and if it the battery is at it's set point then the duty cycle on the transistors in the rectifier go down - zero. At that point the impedance of the AC line would appear to go up. In response the GT inverters would increase there output voltage in an attempt to over come the higher impedance. The voltage monitoring switch that I spec'd has a response delay setting. If I am running in offgrid mode, the main worry is voltage sag due to load. So generally, the inverter would be running at or below AC voltage set point. There may be spikes above voltage set point when a load is disconnected, but I could filter that out with the delay on the sensor. Still, this is why I am asking. Anyone on the list have more confidence in their understand of BB inverters in off-grid mode with AC coupled GT inverters? Mark On 11/3/2019 10:44 AM, Kienan Maxfield wrote: P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} Mark, I think that you're not understanding what Brian is saying. In any case, your proposal will not work with most equipment. There may be some equipment that would work that way, but not anything I'm aware of. Let me tell you what will happen in a normal system, assuming that the manufacturer hasn't built in an AC coupling control mechanism (like frequency shifting) The BB inverter will maintain a stable AC voltage by allowing the GT inverters to back feed into the batteries. If the batteries start overcharging, the BB inverter will not raise the AC voltage in response. What will happen instead is that there will be no measurable difference in the AC voltage, but the DC voltage will continue to rise until it hits the multimode BB inverter's high battery cut out voltage, and the BB inverter will shut off, and your entire AC line will drop to 0 volts. This will turn off the GT inverter, and as the battery voltage falls back into an acceptable range, the BB inverter may or may not automatically turn back on. If it does automatically turn back on, then the GT inverter will wait for 5 minutes and then they'll start back-feeding until the battery voltage goes above the overvoltage setpoint, and the whole system shuts off again. So this is what is normally happening if you hear about an AC coupling system that shuts off once every 6 minutes or so during the day... And yes, I have seen a system where the homeowner was told that this was normal, and it's just how the system was supposed to work.. So if the inverter has an AC Coupling control mechanism, and that AC coupling mode is turned on, then it will change the characteristics of the AC line in order to notify the GT inverter to turn off, or to decrease its output. The only way that I've ever heard about any manufacturers implementing this is through frequency shifting. Now it would be perfectly possible to do it through voltage shifting (or voltage raising) and I've talked to some engineers who said that on a technological level, it wouldn't be any harder for a manufacturer to do voltage shifting than frequency shifting, but no manufacturer has actually pursued that. So basically, your only options are  use a BB inverter that has frequency shifting control for AC coupling run a wire from the battery room to the GT inverters that you can use for controlling them based on the battery voltage experiment with something custom and just expect a high probability of eventual failure (but let us know how it goes) You might be able to find a device that would read the battery voltage, and then transmit that information wirelessly, then have another device at the GT inverters that decodes that information and then drives a relay accordingly. (I have no idea how to do this, for me, this is in the hypothetical realm.) Or maybe it could transmit the info via PLC? or the fourth option is to set the BB inverter's high battery cut out voltage to just above the absorb voltage and just plan on the power going out multiple times per sunny day. I wouldn't go for this one unless it's your own home and you're feeling very adventuresome. Essentially the bottom line is that monitoring the AC line will never work unless the BB inverter has a built-in AC coupling control mechanism, then you'll be monitoring for the frequency rather than the voltage. Sorry for not having anything more helpful to say. Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Mark Frye Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2019 11:00 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect   OK Brian, So I think you are confirming that monitoring AC side voltage is an acceptable way of deciding when to disconnect the GT inverters. With my parts list, I have a delay time that would hold the GT inverters off-line for some period of time (I would probably set to 1 hour) before coming back on line after tipping off. Mark On 11/3/2019 9:53 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > With frequency-on/off, frequency power control, or other “inverter integrated” control based on battery voltage/state of charge there is also control in regards to when the ac coupled inverters come back on. And yes, this is definitely needed to prevent overcharge (or get three-stage charging from the  AC coupled system). Of course if it doesn’t work, yes the bus voltage will rise and trip the BB offline. > > AC bus voltage will go down as soon as the ac couple inverters are kicked off, so if that’s your measured value unless your control system has a delay or other component to control reconnection and charging i think it could essentially chatter off and on and off and... > > Brian > >> On Nov 3, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Mark Frye wrote: >> >> Hi William, >> >> Thanks, you bring up issues that are important to me here. >> >> In particular, my situation is that the GT inverter is inter-tied a couple sub panels upstream of where I want to put the BB inverter. The distance is long, so I am looking for a solution where I don't have to run a cable between the two. >> >> In general, I do wonder about using AC line voltage rise to take the Gt inverters off line. The main goal is to prevent excess voltage at the battery, so monitoring battery voltage is most direct, and there are simple solutions for that. >> >> Is AC line voltage a suitable metric for achieving the same goal? >> >> Here is where I could use Wrench knowledge to confirm my thinking, that being: >> >> - With excess energy in the system, the charger moves it into the battery, raising it's voltage until it reaches it high charging voltage set point >> >> - Once the battery reaches it's high voltage set point, the charger stops putting energy into the battery >> >> - With no other place to put the excess energy, the AC voltage rises >> >> Am I getting this right, the reason to disconnect AC coupled inverters when the battery if full is not to prevent the batteries from being overcharged, but rather to prevent the AC line from becoming unstable? >> >> I am hoping this is correct and that with $200 of industrial grade devices from Digikey I can implement a robust control that will disconnect the GT inverters before the AC line goes so high that the BB inverter faults. >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Nov 3 14:33:24 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 12:33:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: What everyone else is saying appears to all be good info.  My summary (which could be off): 1) You don't want to signal the relay based on AC voltage. Period. 2) the BB inverter will signal the GT inverter through frequency shift, once the batteries reach absorption voltage. 3) The relay is for redundancy, in case the frequency shift /thingy/ doesn't turn off the GT inverter. 4) The relay should be signaled off of an aux relay, either on the BB inverter, a DC Charge controller, or an independent DC voltage controller, set for HVD (High Voltage disconnect) sensing battery voltage. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/3/19 11:58 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > > OK, the posts are coming in on the "no" side, but with uncertainty > about how any given BB inverter might work. > > > I still think that the BB charger is in charge (no pun) of sending > power to the battery and if it the battery is at it's set point then > the duty cycle on the transistors in the rectifier go down - zero. At > that point the impedance of the AC line would appear to go up. In > response the GT inverters would increase there output voltage in an > attempt to over come the higher impedance. > > > The voltage monitoring switch that I spec'd has a response delay > setting. If I am running in offgrid mode, the main worry is voltage > sag due to load. So generally, the inverter would be running at or > below AC voltage set point. There may be spikes above voltage set > point when a load is disconnected, but I could filter that out with > the delay on the sensor. > > > Still, this is why I am asking. > > > Anyone on the list have more confidence in their understand of BB > inverters in off-grid mode with AC coupled GT inverters? > > > Mark > > > On 11/3/2019 10:44 AM, Kienan Maxfield wrote: >> Mark, >> >> I think that you're not understanding what Brian is saying. In any >> case, your proposal will not work with most equipment. There may be >> some equipment that would work that way, but not anything I'm aware >> of. Let me tell you what will happen in a normal system, assuming >> that the manufacturer hasn't built in an AC coupling control >> mechanism (like frequency shifting) >> >> The BB inverter will maintain a stable AC voltage by allowing the GT >> inverters to back feed into the batteries. If the batteries start >> overcharging, the BB inverter will not raise the AC voltage in >> response. What will happen instead is that there will be no >> measurable difference in the AC voltage, but the DC voltage will >> continue to rise until it hits the multimode BB inverter's high >> battery cut out voltage, and the BB inverter will shut off, and your >> entire AC line will drop to 0 volts. This will turn off the GT >> inverter, and as the battery voltage falls back into an acceptable >> range, the BB inverter may or may not automatically turn back on. If >> it does automatically turn back on, then the GT inverter will wait >> for 5 minutes and then they'll start back-feeding until the battery >> voltage goes above the overvoltage setpoint, and the whole system >> shuts off again. So this is what is normally happening if you hear >> about an AC coupling system that shuts off once every 6 minutes or so >> during the day... And yes, I have seen a system where the homeowner >> was told that this was normal, and it's just how the system was >> supposed to work.. >> >> So if the inverter has an AC Coupling control mechanism, and that AC >> coupling mode is turned on, then it will change the characteristics >> of the AC line in order to notify the GT inverter to turn off, or to >> decrease its output. The only way that I've ever heard about any >> manufacturers implementing this is through frequency shifting. Now it >> would be perfectly possible to do it through voltage shifting (or >> voltage raising) and I've talked to some engineers who said that on a >> technological level, it wouldn't be any harder for a manufacturer to >> do voltage shifting than frequency shifting, but no manufacturer has >> actually pursued that. So basically, your only options are >> >> 1. use a BB inverter that has frequency shifting control for AC coupling >> 2. run a wire from the battery room to the GT inverters that you can >> use for controlling them based on the battery voltage >> 3. experiment with something custom and just expect a high >> probability of eventual failure (but let us know how it goes) >> 1. You might be able to find a device that would read the >> battery voltage, and then transmit that information >> wirelessly, then have another device at the GT inverters that >> decodes that information and then drives a relay accordingly. >> (I have no idea how to do this, for me, this is in the >> hypothetical realm.) Or maybe it could transmit the info via PLC? >> 4. or the fourth option is to set the BB inverter's high battery cut >> out voltage to just above the absorb voltage and just plan on the >> power going out multiple times per sunny day. I wouldn't go for >> this one unless it's your own home and you're feeling very >> adventuresome. >> >> Essentially the bottom line is that monitoring the AC line will never >> work unless the BB inverter has a built-in AC coupling control >> mechanism, then you'll be monitoring for the frequency rather than >> the voltage. >> >> Sorry for not having anything more helpful to say. >> Kienan >> >> *Maxfield Solar* >> *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* >> * >> **(801) 631-5584 (Cell)** >> * >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Mark Frye >> *Sent:* Sunday, November 3, 2019 11:00 AM >> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect >> OK Brian, >> >> So I think you are confirming that monitoring AC side voltage is an >> acceptable way of deciding when to disconnect the GT inverters. >> >> With my parts list, I have a delay time that would hold the GT inverters >> off-line for some period of time (I would probably set to 1 hour) before >> coming back on line after tipping off. >> >> >> Mark >> >> On 11/3/2019 9:53 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >> > With frequency-on/off, frequency power control, or other “inverter >> integrated” control based on battery voltage/state of charge there is >> also control in regards to when the ac coupled inverters come back >> on. And yes, this is definitely needed to prevent overcharge (or get >> three-stage charging from the  AC coupled system). Of course if it >> doesn’t work, yes the bus voltage will rise and trip the BB offline. >> > >> > AC bus voltage will go down as soon as the ac couple inverters are >> kicked off, so if that’s your measured value unless your control >> system has a delay or other component to control reconnection and >> charging i think it could essentially chatter off and on and off and... >> > >> > Brian >> > >> >> On Nov 3, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Mark Frye wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi William, >> >> >> >> Thanks, you bring up issues that are important to me here. >> >> >> >> In particular, my situation is that the GT inverter is inter-tied >> a couple sub panels upstream of where I want to put the BB inverter. >> The distance is long, so I am looking for a solution where I don't >> have to run a cable between the two. >> >> >> >> In general, I do wonder about using AC line voltage rise to take >> the Gt inverters off line. The main goal is to prevent excess voltage >> at the battery, so monitoring battery voltage is most direct, and >> there are simple solutions for that. >> >> >> >> Is AC line voltage a suitable metric for achieving the same goal? >> >> >> >> Here is where I could use Wrench knowledge to confirm my thinking, >> that being: >> >> >> >> - With excess energy in the system, the charger moves it into the >> battery, raising it's voltage until it reaches it high charging >> voltage set point >> >> >> >> - Once the battery reaches it's high voltage set point, the >> charger stops putting energy into the battery >> >> >> >> - With no other place to put the excess energy, the AC voltage rises >> >> >> >> Am I getting this right, the reason to disconnect AC coupled >> inverters when the battery if full is not to prevent the batteries >> from being overcharged, but rather to prevent the AC line from >> becoming unstable? >> >> >> >> I am hoping this is correct and that with $200 of industrial grade >> devices from Digikey I can implement a robust control that will >> disconnect the GT inverters before the AC line goes so high that the >> BB inverter faults. >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Nov 3 14:07:59 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 11:07:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: An option that will work for sure is a diversion load and controller. This can be done with most standard CC’s and or inverters using the AUX relay driving another SS relay, and then the diversion load. The load can be a standard AC oil heater, safe, inexpensive, reliable. ( this is what I use for my own hydro diversion) The size of the diversion would depend on battery bank size, type, GTI size, system load etc. As to cost, sub $100 in parts. I’m thinking that Kienan is right here. AC coupling control is done on the frequency side, not any change in AC voltage. My experience with doing it in the past on my own system didn’t show any change in AC voltage. But it wasn’t a large AC couple production vs size of the inverter ( 600 watts vs 3500 inverter) so maybe I didn’t have enough to drive up the AC volts? jay peltz power From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sun Nov 3 14:51:38 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 11:51:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Folks, I do not want to be obdurate here, perhaps just a slow learner. I have to ask the question though: In the case of a BB inverter connected to the grid only, with no GT inverters, you don't have to shutdown the whole inverter when the battery is full because you are not required to endlessly push available energy into the batteries. You can turn off the switch that connects the charger to the battery. Mark On 11/3/2019 11:13 AM, Kienan Maxfield wrote: > Mark, > > Sorry, my post must not have been perfectly clear... I have total > confidence in how the BB inverters work, and no, the GT inverter there > will be no measurable deduction in impedance, even if you have a very > sensitive sensor and there are no other loads on the system. It just > doesn't work that way. It is impossible for the inverter to reduce the > current into the batteries when it's being fed into the inverter > through its output. And that's true no matter what inverter we're > talking about. It is impossible for it to increase it's impedance that > way. > > The only thing I would say is that if you were an engineer at an > inverter manufacturer, it would be possible for you to design an > inverter that could change it's output voltage based on the battery > voltage, but nobody does that. That's why they change the output > frequency. I think my last email layed out the 4 possible options, and > I am confident that there is no other option that would work at all. > > These were my four options... > > 1. Use a BB inverter that has frequency shifting control for AC coupling > 2. Run a wire from the battery room to the GT inverters that you can > use for controlling them based on the battery voltage > 3. Experiment with something custom and just expect a high > probability of eventual failure (but let us know how it goes) > 1. You might be able to find a device that would read the battery > voltage, and then transmit that information wirelessly, then > have another device at the GT inverters that decodes that > information and then drives a relay accordingly. (I have no > idea how to do this, for me, this is in the hypothetical > realm.) Or maybe it could transmit the info via PLC? > 4. Or the fourth option is to set the BB inverter's high battery cut > out voltage to just above the absorb voltage and just plan on the > power going out multiple times per sunny day. I wouldn't go for > this one unless it's your own home and you're feeling very > adventuresome. > > > > > Sorry for the bad news, but unless you have frequency shifting, it's > totally impossible to control the GT inverter using the AC line. > > Kienan > > > *Maxfield Solar* > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* > * > **(801) 631-5584 (Cell)** > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on > behalf of Mark Frye > *Sent:* Sunday, November 3, 2019 11:58 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect > > OK, the posts are coming in on the "no" side, but with uncertainty > about how any given BB inverter might work. > > > I still think that the BB charger is in charge (no pun) of sending > power to the battery and if it the battery is at it's set point then > the duty cycle on the transistors in the rectifier go down - zero. At > that point the impedance of the AC line would appear to go up. In > response the GT inverters would increase there output voltage in an > attempt to over come the higher impedance. > > > The voltage monitoring switch that I spec'd has a response delay > setting. If I am running in offgrid mode, the main worry is voltage > sag due to load. So generally, the inverter would be running at or > below AC voltage set point. There may be spikes above voltage set > point when a load is disconnected, but I could filter that out with > the delay on the sensor. > > > Still, this is why I am asking. > > > Anyone on the list have more confidence in their understand of BB > inverters in off-grid mode with AC coupled GT inverters? > > > Mark > > > On 11/3/2019 10:44 AM, Kienan Maxfield wrote: >> Mark, >> >> I think that you're not understanding what Brian is saying. In any >> case, your proposal will not work with most equipment. There may be >> some equipment that would work that way, but not anything I'm aware >> of. Let me tell you what will happen in a normal system, assuming >> that the manufacturer hasn't built in an AC coupling control >> mechanism (like frequency shifting) >> >> The BB inverter will maintain a stable AC voltage by allowing the GT >> inverters to back feed into the batteries. If the batteries start >> overcharging, the BB inverter will not raise the AC voltage in >> response. What will happen instead is that there will be no >> measurable difference in the AC voltage, but the DC voltage will >> continue to rise until it hits the multimode BB inverter's high >> battery cut out voltage, and the BB inverter will shut off, and your >> entire AC line will drop to 0 volts. This will turn off the GT >> inverter, and as the battery voltage falls back into an acceptable >> range, the BB inverter may or may not automatically turn back on. If >> it does automatically turn back on, then the GT inverter will wait >> for 5 minutes and then they'll start back-feeding until the battery >> voltage goes above the overvoltage setpoint, and the whole system >> shuts off again. So this is what is normally happening if you hear >> about an AC coupling system that shuts off once every 6 minutes or so >> during the day... And yes, I have seen a system where the homeowner >> was told that this was normal, and it's just how the system was >> supposed to work.. >> >> So if the inverter has an AC Coupling control mechanism, and that AC >> coupling mode is turned on, then it will change the characteristics >> of the AC line in order to notify the GT inverter to turn off, or to >> decrease its output. The only way that I've ever heard about any >> manufacturers implementing this is through frequency shifting. Now it >> would be perfectly possible to do it through voltage shifting (or >> voltage raising) and I've talked to some engineers who said that on a >> technological level, it wouldn't be any harder for a manufacturer to >> do voltage shifting than frequency shifting, but no manufacturer has >> actually pursued that. So basically, your only options are >> >> 1. use a BB inverter that has frequency shifting control for AC coupling >> 2. run a wire from the battery room to the GT inverters that you can >> use for controlling them based on the battery voltage >> 3. experiment with something custom and just expect a high >> probability of eventual failure (but let us know how it goes) >> 1. You might be able to find a device that would read the >> battery voltage, and then transmit that information >> wirelessly, then have another device at the GT inverters that >> decodes that information and then drives a relay accordingly. >> (I have no idea how to do this, for me, this is in the >> hypothetical realm.) Or maybe it could transmit the info via PLC? >> 4. or the fourth option is to set the BB inverter's high battery cut >> out voltage to just above the absorb voltage and just plan on the >> power going out multiple times per sunny day. I wouldn't go for >> this one unless it's your own home and you're feeling very >> adventuresome. >> >> Essentially the bottom line is that monitoring the AC line will never >> work unless the BB inverter has a built-in AC coupling control >> mechanism, then you'll be monitoring for the frequency rather than >> the voltage. >> >> Sorry for not having anything more helpful to say. >> Kienan >> >> *Maxfield Solar* >> *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* >> * >> **(801) 631-5584 (Cell)** >> * >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches >> on behalf of Mark >> Frye >> *Sent:* Sunday, November 3, 2019 11:00 AM >> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect >> OK Brian, >> >> So I think you are confirming that monitoring AC side voltage is an >> acceptable way of deciding when to disconnect the GT inverters. >> >> With my parts list, I have a delay time that would hold the GT inverters >> off-line for some period of time (I would probably set to 1 hour) before >> coming back on line after tipping off. >> >> >> Mark >> >> On 11/3/2019 9:53 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >> > With frequency-on/off, frequency power control, or other “inverter >> integrated” control based on battery voltage/state of charge there is >> also control in regards to when the ac coupled inverters come back >> on. And yes, this is definitely needed to prevent overcharge (or get >> three-stage charging from the  AC coupled system). Of course if it >> doesn’t work, yes the bus voltage will rise and trip the BB offline. >> > >> > AC bus voltage will go down as soon as the ac couple inverters are >> kicked off, so if that’s your measured value unless your control >> system has a delay or other component to control reconnection and >> charging i think it could essentially chatter off and on and off and... >> > >> > Brian >> > >> >> On Nov 3, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Mark Frye >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi William, >> >> >> >> Thanks, you bring up issues that are important to me here. >> >> >> >> In particular, my situation is that the GT inverter is inter-tied >> a couple sub panels upstream of where I want to put the BB inverter. >> The distance is long, so I am looking for a solution where I don't >> have to run a cable between the two. >> >> >> >> In general, I do wonder about using AC line voltage rise to take >> the Gt inverters off line. The main goal is to prevent excess voltage >> at the battery, so monitoring battery voltage is most direct, and >> there are simple solutions for that. >> >> >> >> Is AC line voltage a suitable metric for achieving the same goal? >> >> >> >> Here is where I could use Wrench knowledge to confirm my thinking, >> that being: >> >> >> >> - With excess energy in the system, the charger moves it into the >> battery, raising it's voltage until it reaches it high charging >> voltage set point >> >> >> >> - Once the battery reaches it's high voltage set point, the >> charger stops putting energy into the battery >> >> >> >> - With no other place to put the excess energy, the AC voltage rises >> >> >> >> Am I getting this right, the reason to disconnect AC coupled >> inverters when the battery if full is not to prevent the batteries >> from being overcharged, but rather to prevent the AC line from >> becoming unstable? >> >> >> >> I am hoping this is correct and that with $200 of industrial grade >> devices from Digikey I can implement a robust control that will >> disconnect the GT inverters before the AC line goes so high that the >> BB inverter faults. >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sun Nov 3 19:17:39 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:17:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Folks, Please allow me to ask another question: Suppose I have a bi-direction inverter/charge with no connection to the grid. I have GT inverter ac coupled and producing 2000w. The battery is in float, and I have 2000w of load connected. All is well. Now suppose I remove the loads without disconnecting the GT inverters. The word is that something bad happens now. I would like to understand what that bad thing is. I have one explanation that I think says that the GTs will continue to produce the 2000w, and that energy will go into the batteries in an unregulated fashion. When does this end, when the batteries blow up? Is that the consequence of not disconnecting the GT? With many thanks in advance for your help in understanding. Mark From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Nov 3 19:26:48 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 16:26:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> The BB inverter will drive the grid inverter off frequency because it is full/floating and the grid tie will stop producing power. This is how AC coupling works but if something goes wrong, like programming gets corrupted by surges or the battery hits an LBCO or HBCO AC power will stop. Or if this is being controlled by Soc and it gets wrong data or there is a network issue, or all of the other things that can happen that I have not thought of. Why do you not want to build a normal DC couples system? I forget fast....Happy Hour! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:17:39 -0800, Mark Frye wrote: > Folks, > > Please allow me to ask another question: > > Suppose I have a bi-direction inverter/charge with no connection to the > grid. > > I have GT inverter ac coupled and producing 2000w. The battery is in > float, and I have 2000w of load connected. All is well. > > Now suppose I remove the loads without disconnecting the GT inverters. > > The word is that something bad happens now. I would like to understand > what that bad thing is. > > I have one explanation that I think says that the GTs will continue to > produce the 2000w, and that energy will go into the batteries in an > unregulated fashion. When does this end, when the batteries blow up? Is > that the consequence of not disconnecting the GT? > > With many thanks in advance for your help in understanding. > > Mark > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sun Nov 3 19:31:49 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:31:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: OK, I am hearing this over and over and I just want to confirm that is true even if the BB is older and does not have "NEW Frequency Shifting AC Coupling". On 11/3/2019 4:26 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > The BB inverter will drive the grid inverter off frequency because it is > full/floating and the grid tie will stop producing power. This is how AC > coupling works but if something goes wrong, like programming gets corrupted > by surges or the battery hits an LBCO or HBCO AC power will stop. Or if > this is being controlled by Soc and it gets wrong data or there is a > network issue, or all of the other things that can happen that I have not > thought of. > > Why do you not want to build a normal DC couples system? I forget > fast....Happy Hour! > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:17:39 -0800, Mark Frye > wrote: >> Folks, >> >> Please allow me to ask another question: >> >> Suppose I have a bi-direction inverter/charge with no connection to the >> grid. >> >> I have GT inverter ac coupled and producing 2000w. The battery is in >> float, and I have 2000w of load connected. All is well. >> >> Now suppose I remove the loads without disconnecting the GT inverters. >> >> The word is that something bad happens now. I would like to understand >> what that bad thing is. >> >> I have one explanation that I think says that the GTs will continue to >> produce the 2000w, and that energy will go into the batteries in an >> unregulated fashion. When does this end, when the batteries blow up? Is >> that the consequence of not disconnecting the GT? >> >> With many thanks in advance for your help in understanding. >> >> Mark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sun Nov 3 19:36:27 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:36:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] hueRe: Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Happy Hour, yes it is that time here in our home. Thanks again, but I guess I don't see that there is a catastrophic result here, the BB raises the frequency and trips the GT. So what, as long as the BB returns to a standby. On 11/3/2019 4:31 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > OK, I am hearing this over and over and I just want to confirm that is > true even if the BB is older and does not have "NEW Frequency Shifting > AC Coupling". > > On 11/3/2019 4:26 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> The BB inverter will drive the grid inverter off frequency because it is >> full/floating and the grid tie will stop producing power. This is how AC >> coupling works but if something goes wrong, like programming gets >> corrupted >> by surges or the battery hits an LBCO or HBCO AC power will stop. Or if >> this is being controlled by Soc and it gets wrong data or there is a >> network issue, or all of the other things that can happen that I have >> not >> thought of. >> >> Why do you not want to build a normal DC couples system? I forget >> fast....Happy Hour! >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:17:39 -0800, Mark Frye >> wrote: >>> Folks, >>> >>> Please allow me to ask another question: >>> >>> Suppose I have a bi-direction inverter/charge with no connection to the >>> grid. >>> >>> I have GT inverter ac coupled and producing 2000w. The battery is in >>> float, and I have 2000w of load connected. All is well. >>> >>> Now suppose I remove the loads without disconnecting the GT inverters. >>> >>> The word is that something bad happens now. I would like to understand >>> what that bad thing is. >>> >>> I have one explanation that I think says that the GTs will continue to >>> produce the 2000w, and that energy will go into the batteries in an >>> unregulated fashion. When does this end, when the batteries blow up? Is >>> that the consequence of not disconnecting the GT? >>> >>> With many thanks in advance for your help in understanding. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Nov 3 19:56:47 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 19:56:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] hueRe: Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect Message-ID: Indeed, as long as nothing goes wrong with the BB inverters ability to shift the freq, and the GT's ability to follow the UL 1741 requirements, nothing bad should happen. However it is best practice to have a secondary method in place to ensure the GT drops out of the picture. That most commonly is ensured with an interposing relay controlled by the BB inverters knowledge of the battery charge, or a secondary device that performs the measurement.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Mark FryeDate: Sun, Nov 3, 2019 7:36 PMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] hueRe: Parts List For AC Couple DisconnectHappy Hour, yes it is that time here in our home. Thanks again, but I guess I don't see that there is a catastrophic result here, the BB raises the frequency and trips the GT. So what, as long as the BB returns to a standby. On 11/3/2019 4:31 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > OK, I am hearing this over and over and I just want to confirm that is > true even if the BB is older and does not have "NEW Frequency Shifting > AC Coupling". > > On 11/3/2019 4:26 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> The BB inverter will drive the grid inverter off frequency because it is >> full/floating and the grid tie will stop producing power. This is how AC >> coupling works but if something goes wrong, like programming gets >> corrupted >> by surges or the battery hits an LBCO or HBCO AC power will stop. Or if >> this is being controlled by Soc and it gets wrong data or there is a >> network issue, or all of the other things that can happen that I have >> not >> thought of. >> >> Why do you not want to build a normal DC couples system? I forget >> fast....Happy Hour! >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:17:39 -0800, Mark Frye >> wrote: >>> Folks, >>> >>> Please allow me to ask another question: >>> >>> Suppose I have a bi-direction inverter/charge with no connection to the >>> grid. >>> >>> I have GT inverter ac coupled and producing 2000w. The battery is in >>> float, and I have 2000w of load connected. All is well. >>> >>> Now suppose I remove the loads without disconnecting the GT inverters. >>> >>> The word is that something bad happens now. I would like to understand >>> what that bad thing is. >>> >>> I have one explanation that I think says that the GTs will continue to >>> produce the 2000w, and that energy will go into the batteries in an >>> unregulated fashion. When does this end, when the batteries blow up? Is >>> that the consequence of not disconnecting the GT? >>> >>> With many thanks in advance for your help in understanding. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sun Nov 3 20:05:40 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 17:05:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] hueRe: Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, great, I am really getting the message, but I would like to understand, if for some reason the BB does not raise the frequency or the GT does not response, or the BB fails to stop on HBCO the ultimate consequence is unregulated charging of the battery until failure? On 11/3/2019 4:56 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > Indeed, as long as nothing goes wrong with the BB inverters ability to > shift the freq, and the GT's ability to follow the UL 1741 > requirements, nothing bad should happen. However it is best practice > to have a secondary method in place to ensure the GT drops out of the > picture. That most commonly is ensured with an interposing relay > controlled by the BB inverters knowledge of the battery charge, or a > secondary device that performs the measurement. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Mark Frye > *Date: *Sun, Nov 3, 2019 7:36 PM > *To: *re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > ; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] hueRe: Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect > > Happy Hour, yes it is that time here in our home. > > Thanks again, but I guess I don't see that there is a catastrophic > result here, the BB raises the frequency and trips the GT. So what, as > long as the BB returns to a standby. > > On 11/3/2019 4:31 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > > OK, I am hearing this over and over and I just want to confirm that is > > true even if the BB is older and does not have "NEW Frequency Shifting > > AC Coupling". > > > > On 11/3/2019 4:26 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > >> The BB inverter will drive the grid inverter off frequency because it is > >> full/floating and the grid tie will stop producing power. > This is how AC > >> coupling works but if something goes wrong, like programming gets > >> corrupted > >> by surges or the battery hits an LBCO or HBCO AC power will stop. Or if > >> this is being controlled by Soc and it gets wrong data or there is a > >> network issue, or all of the other things that can happen that I have > >> not > >> thought of. > >> > >> Why do you not want to build a normal DC couples system? I forget > >> fast....Happy Hour! > >> > >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > >> "we go where powerlines don't" > >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > >> e-mailoffgridsolar at sti.net > >> text 209 813 0060 > >> > >> On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:17:39 -0800, Mark Frye >> wrote: >>> Folks, >>> >>> Please allow me to ask another question: > >>> >>> Suppose I have a bi-direction inverter/charge with no > connection to the >>> grid. >>> >>> I have GT inverter ac coupled and > producing 2000w. The battery is in >>> float, and I have 2000w of load > connected. All is well. >>> >>> Now suppose I remove the loads without > disconnecting the GT inverters. >>> >>> The word is that something bad > happens now. I would like to understand >>> what that bad thing is. > >>> >>> I have one explanation that I think says that the GTs will > continue to >>> produce the 2000w, and that energy will go into the > batteries in an >>> unregulated fashion. When does this end, when the > batteries blow up? Is >>> that the consequence of not disconnecting > the GT? >>> >>> With many thanks in advance for your help in > understanding. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by > Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List > Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>> >>> Change listserver email > address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > /maillist.ht > ml >> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> >>> Check out or update > participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by > Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver > email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > /maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update > participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by > Redwood Alliance List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Change listserver email > address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > /maillist.ht > ml List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > Check out or update > participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Nov 3 20:40:58 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 17:40:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] hueRe: Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <354F3667-5F9C-4CFB-BC83-ED711AF64731@gmail.com> Hi mark, Not quite. The BB will keep charging unregulated until the battery voltage reaches high battery voltage cutout set point. jay peltz power > On Nov 3, 2019, at 5:05 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > > OK, great, I am really getting the message, but I would like to understand, if for some reason the BB does not raise the frequency or the GT does not response, or the BB fails to stop on HBCO the ultimate consequence is unregulated charging of the battery until failure? > > On 11/3/2019 4:56 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: >> Indeed, as long as nothing goes wrong with the BB inverters ability to shift the freq, and the GT's ability to follow the UL 1741 requirements, nothing bad should happen. However it is best practice to have a secondary method in place to ensure the GT drops out of the picture. That most commonly is ensured with an interposing relay controlled by the BB inverters knowledge of the battery charge, or a secondary device that performs the measurement. >> >> -Glenn >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> ------ Original me -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Nov 3 20:45:31 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 17:45:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: No, older non frequency shift BB inverters don’t communicate that way. They have no communication with a Rule 21 GT inverter. The BB, it will just keep charging and charging with any extra energy coming from the GT inverter. The BB has no regulation, there is no absorb or float, just charge. jay peltz power > On Nov 3, 2019, at 4:31 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > > OK, I am hearing this over and over and I just want to confirm that is true even if the BB is older and does not have "NEW Frequency Shifting AC Coupling". > > On 11/3/2019 4:26 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> The BB inverter will drive the grid inverter off frequency because it is >> full/floating and the grid tie will stop producing power. This is how AC >> coupling works but if something goes wrong, like programming gets corrupted >> by surges or the battery hits an LBCO or HBCO AC power will stop. Or if >> this is being controlled by Soc and it gets wrong data or there is a >> network issue, or all of the other things that can happen that I have not >> thought of. >> >> Why do you not want to build a normal DC couples system? I forget >> fast....Happy Hour! >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:17:39 -0800, Mark Frye >> wrote: >>> Folks, >>> >>> Please allow me to ask another question: >>> >>> Suppose I have a bi-direction inverter/charge with no connection to the >>> grid. >>> >>> I have GT inverter ac coupled and producing 2000w. The battery is in >>> float, and I have 2000w of load connected. All is well. >>> >>> Now suppose I remove the loads without disconnecting the GT inverters. >>> >>> The word is that something bad happens now. I would like to understand >>> what that bad thing is. >>> >>> I have one explanation that I think says that the GTs will continue to >>> produce the 2000w, and that energy will go into the batteries in an >>> unregulated fashion. When does this end, when the batteries blow up? Is >>> that the consequence of not disconnecting the GT? >>> >>> With many thanks in advance for your help in understanding. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sun Nov 3 21:10:05 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 18:10:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: OK Jay that makes sense. This must mean that there is a significant difference in the function of the BB inverter when it is in off-grid mode vs when it is in grid connected mode. On 11/3/2019 5:45 PM, jay wrote: > No, older non frequency shift BB inverters don’t communicate that way. > > They have no communication with a Rule 21 GT inverter. > > The BB, it will just keep charging and charging with any extra energy coming from the GT inverter. The BB has no regulation, there is no absorb or float, just charge. > > jay > > peltz power > >> On Nov 3, 2019, at 4:31 PM, Mark Frye wrote: >> >> OK, I am hearing this over and over and I just want to confirm that is true even if the BB is older and does not have "NEW Frequency Shifting AC Coupling". >> >> On 11/3/2019 4:26 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>> The BB inverter will drive the grid inverter off frequency because it is >>> full/floating and the grid tie will stop producing power. This is how AC >>> coupling works but if something goes wrong, like programming gets corrupted >>> by surges or the battery hits an LBCO or HBCO AC power will stop. Or if >>> this is being controlled by Soc and it gets wrong data or there is a >>> network issue, or all of the other things that can happen that I have not >>> thought of. >>> >>> Why do you not want to build a normal DC couples system? I forget >>> fast....Happy Hour! >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>> >>> On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:17:39 -0800, Mark Frye >>> wrote: >>>> Folks, >>>> >>>> Please allow me to ask another question: >>>> >>>> Suppose I have a bi-direction inverter/charge with no connection to the >>>> grid. >>>> >>>> I have GT inverter ac coupled and producing 2000w. The battery is in >>>> float, and I have 2000w of load connected. All is well. >>>> >>>> Now suppose I remove the loads without disconnecting the GT inverters. >>>> >>>> The word is that something bad happens now. I would like to understand >>>> what that bad thing is. >>>> >>>> I have one explanation that I think says that the GTs will continue to >>>> produce the 2000w, and that energy will go into the batteries in an >>>> unregulated fashion. When does this end, when the batteries blow up? Is >>>> that the consequence of not disconnecting the GT? >>>> >>>> With many thanks in advance for your help in understanding. >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From ray at solarray.com Sun Nov 3 22:44:51 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 20:44:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] hueRe: Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: <354F3667-5F9C-4CFB-BC83-ED711AF64731@gmail.com> References: <354F3667-5F9C-4CFB-BC83-ED711AF64731@gmail.com> Message-ID: <25a85ca0-7777-0724-6677-53955b6af409@solarray.com> Here's a pic of an AGM battery bank that went into thermal run away.  Core temp was at over 200 F.  If you over charge a sealed battery for long enough, with high enough charge current and don't have adequate cooling...... You definitely want a relay to disconnect the GT inverters, in case frequency shifting isn't working.  With a large enough array and small battery bank, you can over shoot battery voltage really quickly and start damaging the batteries.  I've seen just milli-amps push an AGM battery to 64 v, once it reaches full charge. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/3/19 6:40 PM, jay wrote: > Hi mark, > > Not quite. > > The BB will keep charging unregulated until the battery voltage > reaches high battery voltage cutout set point. > > > > jay > > peltz power > > > >> On Nov 3, 2019, at 5:05 PM, Mark Frye > > wrote: >> >> OK, great, I am really getting the message, but I would like to >> understand, if for some reason the BB does not raise the frequency or >> the GT does not response, or the BB fails to stop on HBCO the >> ultimate consequence is unregulated charging of the battery until >> failure? >> >> On 11/3/2019 4:56 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: >>> Indeed, as long as nothing goes wrong with the BB inverters ability >>> to shift the freq, and the GT's ability to follow the UL 1741 >>> requirements, nothing bad should happen. However it is best practice >>> to have a secondary method in place to ensure the GT drops out of >>> the picture. That most commonly is ensured with an interposing relay >>> controlled by the BB inverters knowledge of the battery charge, or a >>> secondary device that performs the measurement. >>> >>> -Glenn >>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>> >>> ------ Original me > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: kjcmajdkfgmhcbcj.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 353070 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon Nov 4 09:10:04 2019 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 06:10:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Mark, The difference is that when AC coupled the power is coming backwards into the AC out. When it's charging from the grid or generator it is charging from the AC inputs. The inverter can control the charge from the inputs but not what is coming in reverse into the output. Brad On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 6:10 PM Mark Frye wrote: > OK Jay that makes sense. > > This must mean that there is a significant difference in the function of > the BB inverter when it is in off-grid mode vs when it is in grid > connected mode. > > On 11/3/2019 5:45 PM, jay wrote: > > No, older non frequency shift BB inverters don’t communicate that way. > > > > They have no communication with a Rule 21 GT inverter. > > > > The BB, it will just keep charging and charging with any extra energy > coming from the GT inverter. The BB has no regulation, there is no absorb > or float, just charge. > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > > >> On Nov 3, 2019, at 4:31 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > >> > >> OK, I am hearing this over and over and I just want to confirm that is > true even if the BB is older and does not have "NEW Frequency Shifting AC > Coupling". > >> > >> On 11/3/2019 4:26 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > >>> The BB inverter will drive the grid inverter off frequency because it > is > >>> full/floating and the grid tie will stop producing power. This is how > AC > >>> coupling works but if something goes wrong, like programming gets > corrupted > >>> by surges or the battery hits an LBCO or HBCO AC power will stop. Or if > >>> this is being controlled by Soc and it gets wrong data or there is a > >>> network issue, or all of the other things that can happen that I have > not > >>> thought of. > >>> > >>> Why do you not want to build a normal DC couples system? I forget > >>> fast....Happy Hour! > >>> > >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > >>> "we go where powerlines don't" > >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > >>> text 209 813 0060 > >>> > >>> On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:17:39 -0800, Mark Frye > >>> wrote: > >>>> Folks, > >>>> > >>>> Please allow me to ask another question: > >>>> > >>>> Suppose I have a bi-direction inverter/charge with no connection to > the > >>>> grid. > >>>> > >>>> I have GT inverter ac coupled and producing 2000w. The battery is in > >>>> float, and I have 2000w of load connected. All is well. > >>>> > >>>> Now suppose I remove the loads without disconnecting the GT inverters. > >>>> > >>>> The word is that something bad happens now. I would like to understand > >>>> what that bad thing is. > >>>> > >>>> I have one explanation that I think says that the GTs will continue to > >>>> produce the 2000w, and that energy will go into the batteries in an > >>>> unregulated fashion. When does this end, when the batteries blow up? > Is > >>>> that the consequence of not disconnecting the GT? > >>>> > >>>> With many thanks in advance for your help in understanding. > >>>> > >>>> Mark > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>>> > >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> List-Archive: > >>>> > >>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >>>> List rules & etiquette: > >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>>> > >>>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon Nov 4 09:59:09 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 06:59:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <7be9c7b5-5e12-0953-f943-f3e76fd65df2@berkeleysolar.com> Thanks Brad, I think I am finally getting it. When on-grid, the grid is providing wave form and transistors in BB are available to provide voltage regulation. When off-grid, the transistors in the BB are required to provided wave form and not available to provide regulation. On 11/4/2019 6:10 AM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > Mark, > > The difference is that when AC coupled the power is coming backwards > into the AC out. When it's charging from the grid or generator it is > charging from the AC inputs. The inverter can control the charge from > the inputs but not what is coming in reverse into the output. > > Brad > > On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 6:10 PM Mark Frye > wrote: > > OK Jay that makes sense. > > This must mean that there is a significant difference in the > function of > the BB inverter when it is in off-grid mode vs when it is in grid > connected mode. > > On 11/3/2019 5:45 PM, jay wrote: > > No, older non frequency shift BB inverters don’t communicate > that way. > > > > They have no communication with a Rule 21 GT inverter. > > > > The BB, it will just keep charging and charging with any extra > energy coming from the GT inverter.  The BB  has no regulation, > there is no absorb or float, just charge. > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > > >> On Nov 3, 2019, at 4:31 PM, Mark Frye > wrote: > >> > >> OK, I am hearing this over and over and I just want to confirm > that is true even if the BB is older and does not have "NEW > Frequency Shifting AC Coupling". > >> > >> On 11/3/2019 4:26 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > >>> The BB inverter will drive the grid inverter off frequency > because it is > >>> full/floating and the grid tie will stop producing power. This > is how AC > >>> coupling works but if something goes wrong, like programming > gets corrupted > >>> by surges or the battery hits an LBCO or HBCO AC power will > stop. Or if > >>> this is being controlled by Soc and it gets wrong data or > there is a > >>> network issue, or all of the other things that can happen that > I have not > >>> thought of. > >>> > >>> Why do you not want to build a normal DC couples system? I forget > >>> fast....Happy Hour! > >>> > >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > >>> "we go where powerlines don't" > >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > >>> text 209 813 0060 > >>> > >>> On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:17:39 -0800, Mark Frye > > > >>> wrote: > >>>> Folks, > >>>> > >>>> Please allow me to ask another question: > >>>> > >>>> Suppose I have a bi-direction inverter/charge with no > connection to the > >>>> grid. > >>>> > >>>> I have GT inverter ac coupled and producing 2000w. The > battery is in > >>>> float, and I have 2000w of load connected. All is well. > >>>> > >>>> Now suppose I remove the loads without disconnecting the GT > inverters. > >>>> > >>>> The word is that something bad happens now. I would like to > understand > >>>> what that bad thing is. > >>>> > >>>> I have one explanation that I think says that the GTs will > continue to > >>>> produce the 2000w, and that energy will go into the batteries > in an > >>>> unregulated fashion. When does this end, when the batteries > blow up? Is > >>>> that the consequence of not disconnecting the GT? > >>>> > >>>> With many thanks in advance for your help in understanding. > >>>> > >>>> Mark > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>>> > >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > >>>> > >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>>> > >>>> List-Archive: > >>>> > >>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >>>> List rules & etiquette: > >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > >>>> > >>>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Nov 4 10:40:20 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 07:40:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] hueRe: Parts List For AC Couple Disconnect In-Reply-To: <25a85ca0-7777-0724-6677-53955b6af409@solarray.com> References: <354F3667-5F9C-4CFB-BC83-ED711AF64731@gmail.com> <25a85ca0-7777-0724-6677-53955b6af409@solarray.com> Message-ID: <246ae723391d3d3150057d82f3502c2d@127.0.0.1> We ran the field test XW pro here AC coupled to test function and programming in AC coupling. Used a Schneider grid inverter and it all worked fine. A good set-up for a large grid or micro grid install. I still do not get why someone with a medium/small offgrid (less than 14KW or so) system would want to add all of the complexity and get so little in return? Love the picture of the AGM ! Respect it please! If you get a lightning strike nearby and the failsafe fails! Just sounds like you are giving the client a headache to me. Convince me why for offgrid please? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 20:44:51 -0700, Ray wrote: Here's a pic of an AGM battery bank that went into thermal run away. Core temp was at over 200 F. If you over charge a sealed battery for long enough, with high enough charge current and don't have adequate cooling...... Hi mark, Not quite. The BB will keep charging unregulated until the battery voltage reaches high battery voltage cutout set point. jay peltz power On Nov 3, 2019, at 5:05 PM, Mark Frye wrote: OK, great, I am really getting the message, but I would like to understand, if for some reason the BB does not raise the frequency or the GT does not response, or the BB fails to stop on HBCO the ultimate consequence is unregulated charging of the battery until failure? On 11/3/2019 4:56 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: Indeed, as long as nothing goes wrong with the BB inverters ability to shift the freq, and the GT's ability to follow the UL 1741 requirements, nothing bad should happen. However it is best practice to have a secondary method in place to ensure the GT drops out of the picture. That most commonly is ensured with an interposing relay controlled by the BB inverters knowledge of the battery charge, or a secondary device that performs the measurement. -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original me _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:markf at berkeleysolar.com [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: kjcmajdkfgmhcbcj.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 353070 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Nov 4 11:01:06 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:01:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More on Supply side connection In-Reply-To: References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <018ecfaf-5ca3-4065-3661-afb53581e558@psln.com> After ruminating on Jeff's inquiry about various ways to do a supply side connection, I came up with the attached drawing. Verbal descriptions are harder for me to wrap my head around. This is in PG&E territory, its 3 phase and I too am trying to avoid the extra cost of higher Amp panels. Please pick it apart. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Scan0002.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 200380 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Nov 4 12:33:36 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 09:33:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] More on Supply side connection In-Reply-To: <018ecfaf-5ca3-4065-3661-afb53581e558@psln.com> References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> <018ecfaf-5ca3-4065-3661-afb53581e558@psln.com> Message-ID: Hey Bill, Yes that's pretty much it.  Stand-Alone Meter Socket to J-Box with Splice Tap to Solar Disco and Main Breaker Panel.  Max backfeed 200 Amps (160 Amps rated solar inverters) for single phase. You'll need to meet the Short Circuit Current Rating (SCCR) for all equipment and the IC (Interrupting rating) for all overcurrent protection that is required by the particular transformer - service entrance circuit.  22kAIC  minimum is usually what is needed to meet a 200 Amp service supply side connection. If you have a residential account with PG&E then Greenbook section 6 is the equipment you need to meet. If you have a commercial account with PG&E then Greenbook section 7. I just proposed to PG&E to use a Eaton (Cooper) B-Line CIR 124TB as you'll need test bypass blocks as per the Greenbook for commercial. I plan to follow Bill Hennesey's advice and use Ilsco Splice Taps for the "T" - I plan on using a steel J-box as I'm outdoor in the sun. Then I feed to an Eaton 200 Amp Heavy Duty Safety Switch for the solar with a combined fuse/switch AIC of 200kA Then I feed also to a Main Panel with a breaker/panel rated to 22 AIK - some homeline panels meet this criteria and many standard main breaker Square D and Siemens panels can be found for this. That's it from my end - just submitted this to PG&E this morning and will drop by and check with my AJH this week to make sure it all works for everyone. Hope that helps. Best, Jeff I just sent my PG&E proposal frenergy wrote on 11/4/19 8:01 AM: > After ruminating on Jeff's inquiry about various ways to do a supply > side connection, I came up with the attached drawing. Verbal > descriptions are harder for me to wrap my head around. This is in PG&E > territory, its 3 phase and I too am trying to avoid the extra cost of > higher Amp panels. Please pick it apart. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Nov 4 23:46:46 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 20:46:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HUP cell removal In-Reply-To: <7be9c7b5-5e12-0953-f943-f3e76fd65df2@berkeleysolar.com> References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> <7be9c7b5-5e12-0953-f943-f3e76fd65df2@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <150180b7-19ad-d492-f999-1622452e4b26@psln.com> I'm going to have to remove the cells from 4 HUP Solar1 battery cases to change-out the pack (no option, bad access).  Anyone ever had problems come-a-longing from above the first cell and if so, what's the solution?...and what are you doing tomorrow? Thx, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Nov 5 02:09:01 2019 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 00:09:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HUP cell removal In-Reply-To: <150180b7-19ad-d492-f999-1622452e4b26@psln.com> References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> <7be9c7b5-5e12-0953-f943-f3e76fd65df2@berkeleysolar.com> <150180b7-19ad-d492-f999-1622452e4b26@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill, I just did that a month ago, and it went amazingly smoothly. Earlier, on a similar HUP replacement, I told the (absentee) client that I would rent an engine hoist to lift the cells out of the steel cases, and he advised me that it would cost him less labor and travel if I bought one of the Chinese engine hoists from Harbor Freight for $90 and just kept it. Turned out to be a good application for CCC (thanks, Bob-O). A concrete floor, the engine hoist, a simple hand truck and a strong assistant to share the load made light work of both removal and installation - all 4,000 pounds of it, one 200 lb. cell at a time... so I went dancing that evening. Allan > On Nov 4, 2019, at 9:46 PM, frenergy wrote: > > I'm going to have to remove the cells from 4 HUP Solar1 battery cases to change-out the pack (no option, bad access). Anyone ever had problems come-a-longing from above the first cell and if so, what's the solution?...and what are you doing tomorrow? > > Thx, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jtrox23 at gmail.com Tue Nov 5 07:21:01 2019 From: jtrox23 at gmail.com (J Troxell) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 07:21:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter RF interference and radio equipment Message-ID: I am looking to add a 120vac Inverter to an existing 12vdc off grid radio power supply. My concern is that most inverters introduce interference to the broadcast signal. >From what I understand, if the GEC is connected at the battery bank (-) the interference is less. Then the GEC needs to be sized for the battery cable size. For example if I use a 2000w inverter that would be a 250adc breaker, 4/0 battery cables and a #2 copper GEC. But then what about the GFDI for the roof top PV. The radio tower can not be with out a reference to ground. The tower / building is used as a dwelling / office for three seasons and for search and rescue communication year round. Not enough solar access for a ground / pole mount array -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrpackard88 at gmail.com Tue Nov 5 08:36:32 2019 From: mrpackard88 at gmail.com (Michael Packard) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 06:36:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HUP cell removal In-Reply-To: References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> <7be9c7b5-5e12-0953-f943-f3e76fd65df2@berkeleysolar.com> <150180b7-19ad-d492-f999-1622452e4b26@psln.com> Message-ID: I did this exact same thing for a 48v Hup one battery bank. Engine hoist worked like a charm and my back was very thankful! On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 12:09 AM Allan Sindelar wrote: > Bill, I just did that a month ago, and it went amazingly smoothly. > Earlier, on a similar HUP replacement, I told the (absentee) client that I > would rent an engine hoist to lift the cells out of the steel cases, and he > advised me that it would cost him less labor and travel if I bought one of > the Chinese engine hoists from Harbor Freight for $90 and just kept it. > Turned out to be a good application for CCC (thanks, Bob-O). A concrete > floor, the engine hoist, a simple hand truck and a strong assistant to > share the load made light work of both removal and installation - all 4,000 > pounds of it, one 200 lb. cell at a time... so I went dancing that evening. > Allan > > > On Nov 4, 2019, at 9:46 PM, frenergy wrote: > > > > I'm going to have to remove the cells from 4 HUP Solar1 battery cases to > change-out the pack (no option, bad access). Anyone ever had problems > come-a-longing from above the first cell and if so, what's the > solution?...and what are you doing tomorrow? > > > > Thx, > > > > Bill > > > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, Owner > > 4291 Nelson St. > > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > > 530.284.7849 > > CA Lic 874049 > > www.frenergy.net > > > > > > -- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Tue Nov 5 12:49:01 2019 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 17:49:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HUP cell removal In-Reply-To: References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <07508CEF-C85A-4229-8DBB-BFE5A5FC174A@solarenergy.org> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> <7be9c7b5-5e12-0953-f943-f3e76fd65df2@berkeleysolar.com> <150180b7-19ad-d492-f999-1622452e4b26@psln.com> , Message-ID: make sure to get the plastiboard padding in the proper alignment.. and polarity (orientation) correct when re installing.. db ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Michael Packard Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 8:36 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] HUP cell removal I did this exact same thing for a 48v Hup one battery bank. Engine hoist worked like a charm and my back was very thankful! On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 12:09 AM Allan Sindelar > wrote: Bill, I just did that a month ago, and it went amazingly smoothly. Earlier, on a similar HUP replacement, I told the (absentee) client that I would rent an engine hoist to lift the cells out of the steel cases, and he advised me that it would cost him less labor and travel if I bought one of the Chinese engine hoists from Harbor Freight for $90 and just kept it. Turned out to be a good application for CCC (thanks, Bob-O). A concrete floor, the engine hoist, a simple hand truck and a strong assistant to share the load made light work of both removal and installation - all 4,000 pounds of it, one 200 lb. cell at a time... so I went dancing that evening. Allan > On Nov 4, 2019, at 9:46 PM, frenergy > wrote: > > I'm going to have to remove the cells from 4 HUP Solar1 battery cases to change-out the pack (no option, bad access). Anyone ever had problems come-a-longing from above the first cell and if so, what's the solution?...and what are you doing tomorrow? > > Thx, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Nov 5 23:47:16 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 21:47:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HUP cell removal In-Reply-To: References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> <7be9c7b5-5e12-0953-f943-f3e76fd65df2@berkeleysolar.com> <150180b7-19ad-d492-f999-1622452e4b26@psln.com> Message-ID: <357ad851-7711-52d0-028a-4f3bb6eceed6@solarray.com> We've used an engine hoist before, but for tight spaces, we built a rig out of unistrut with a small block and tackle.  Come along can be hard to use, and puts dangerous metal parts over the battery. HUP batteries are easier to install I've since gone to a winch system, and also try to move the batteries on rollers without taking the cells out. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/5/19 6:36 AM, Michael Packard wrote: > I did this exact same thing for a 48v Hup one battery bank.  Engine > hoist worked like a charm and my back was very thankful! > > > > > On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 12:09 AM Allan Sindelar > > wrote: > > Bill, I just did that a month ago, and it went amazingly smoothly. > Earlier, on a similar HUP replacement, I told the (absentee) > client that I would rent an engine hoist to lift the cells out of > the steel cases, and he advised me that it would cost him less > labor and travel if I bought one of the Chinese engine hoists from > Harbor Freight for $90 and just kept it. Turned out to be a good > application for CCC (thanks, Bob-O). A concrete floor, the engine > hoist, a simple hand truck and a strong assistant to share the > load made light work of both removal and installation - all 4,000 > pounds of it, one 200 lb. cell at a time... so I went dancing that > evening. > Allan > > > On Nov 4, 2019, at 9:46 PM, frenergy > wrote: > > > > I'm going to have to remove the cells from 4 HUP Solar1 battery > cases to change-out the pack (no option, bad access).  Anyone ever > had problems come-a-longing from above the first cell and if so, > what's the solution?...and what are you doing tomorrow? > > > > Thx, > > > > Bill > > > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, Owner > > 4291 Nelson St. > > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > > 530.284.7849 > > CA Lic 874049 > > www.frenergy.net > > > > > > -- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Nov 6 11:34:41 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 08:34:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GFCI Options and OCP on SMA's Secure Power Supply Message-ID: <3a7df06b-803d-6b55-70b2-dcd2b7320e58@villagepowerdesign.com> Wrenches, I've got 5 SB 7.7s going in and I'm contemplating various ways to configure the 5 SPS circuits. Questions: 1.  I'm not clear if additional overcurrent protection is needed anywhere in the circuit?  - the SMA manual doesn't mention it and I'm wondering if it's built in?  I assume the switch is not carrying the current so doesn't need OCP but how about the outlet? 2.  SMA recommends 30mA of for the GFCI device - Most GFCI outlets are 5mA (Class A) or 20mA (Class B).  What have folks been using to avoid nuisance tripping?  Does this lead us back to a 30mA GFCI breaker? 3.  Anyone experience appliance damage from brownouts - can one run multiple fridges on one 16 Amp circuit?  Experience? Thanks! Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Nov 7 07:26:57 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 07:26:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HUP cell removal In-Reply-To: <357ad851-7711-52d0-028a-4f3bb6eceed6@solarray.com> References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <48c0fe56-0536-b050-be2c-e29b113edfe5@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> <7be9c7b5-5e12-0953-f943-f3e76fd65df2@berkeleysolar.com> <150180b7-19ad-d492-f999-1622452e4b26@psln.com> <357ad851-7711-52d0-028a-4f3bb6eceed6@solarray.com> Message-ID: <546BF016-00F0-4123-9D1C-3F51181EE7E1@swnl.net> My question is WHY do folks still install these steel cased Pain the A*& BBs when we have 2 volt cells (UnigiII/Surrette/Crown)that have up to 2400AH @20hr rate and are easily moved by hand, fork truck, shovel! 2 volt cells is always the way to go. > On Nov 5, 2019, at 11:47 PM, Ray wrote: > > We've used an engine hoist before, but for tight spaces, we built a rig out of unistrut with a small block and tackle. Come along can be hard to use, and puts dangerous metal parts over the battery. > > > > I've since gone to a winch system, and also try to move the batteries on rollers without taking the cells out. > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 11/5/19 6:36 AM, Michael Packard wrote: >> I did this exact same thing for a 48v Hup one battery bank. Engine hoist worked like a charm and my back was very thankful! >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 12:09 AM Allan Sindelar > wrote: >> Bill, I just did that a month ago, and it went amazingly smoothly. Earlier, on a similar HUP replacement, I told the (absentee) client that I would rent an engine hoist to lift the cells out of the steel cases, and he advised me that it would cost him less labor and travel if I bought one of the Chinese engine hoists from Harbor Freight for $90 and just kept it. Turned out to be a good application for CCC (thanks, Bob-O). A concrete floor, the engine hoist, a simple hand truck and a strong assistant to share the load made light work of both removal and installation - all 4,000 pounds of it, one 200 lb. cell at a time... so I went dancing that evening. >> Allan >> >> > On Nov 4, 2019, at 9:46 PM, frenergy > wrote: >> > >> > I'm going to have to remove the cells from 4 HUP Solar1 battery cases to change-out the pack (no option, bad access). Anyone ever had problems come-a-longing from above the first cell and if so, what's the solution?...and what are you doing tomorrow? >> > >> > Thx, >> > >> > Bill >> > >> > Feather River Solar Electric >> > Bill Battagin, Owner >> > 4291 Nelson St. >> > Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> > 530.284.7849 >> > CA Lic 874049 >> > www.frenergy.net >> > >> > >> > -- >> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Nov 7 09:27:27 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 06:27:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HUP cell removal In-Reply-To: <546BF016-00F0-4123-9D1C-3F51181EE7E1@swnl.net> References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> <7be9c7b5-5e12-0953-f943-f3e76fd65df2@berkeleysolar.com> <150180b7-19ad-d492-f999-1622452e4b26@psln.com> <357ad851-7711-52d0-028a-4f3bb6eceed6@solarray.com> <546BF016-00F0-4123-9D1C-3F51181EE7E1@swnl.net> Message-ID: I'm with you, the replacement battery for these HUPs are Surrettes. On 11/7/2019 4:26 AM, Tump wrote: > My question is WHY do folks still install these steel cased Pain the > A*& BBs when we have 2 volt cells (UnigiII/Surrette/Crown)that have up > to 2400AH @20hr rate and are easily moved by hand, fork truck, shovel! > 2 volt cells is always the way to go. >> On Nov 5, 2019, at 11:47 PM, Ray > > wrote: >> >> We've used an engine hoist before, but for tight spaces, we built a >> rig out of unistrut with a small block and tackle.  Come along can be >> hard to use, and puts dangerous metal parts over the battery. >> >> HUP batteries are easier to install >> >> I've since gone to a winch system, and also try to move the batteries >> on rollers without taking the cells out. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 11/5/19 6:36 AM, Michael Packard wrote: >>> I did this exact same thing for a 48v Hup one battery bank.  Engine >>> hoist worked like a charm and my back was very thankful! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 12:09 AM Allan Sindelar >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Bill, I just did that a month ago, and it went amazingly >>> smoothly. Earlier, on a similar HUP replacement, I told the >>> (absentee) client that I would rent an engine hoist to lift the >>> cells out of the steel cases, and he advised me that it would >>> cost him less labor and travel if I bought one of the Chinese >>> engine hoists from Harbor Freight for $90 and just kept it. >>> Turned out to be a good application for CCC (thanks, Bob-O). A >>> concrete floor, the engine hoist, a simple hand truck and a >>> strong assistant to share the load made light work of both >>> removal and installation - all 4,000 pounds of it, one 200 lb. >>> cell at a time... so I went dancing that evening. >>> Allan >>> >>> > On Nov 4, 2019, at 9:46 PM, frenergy >> > wrote: >>> > >>> > I'm going to have to remove the cells from 4 HUP Solar1 >>> battery cases to change-out the pack (no option, bad access).  >>> Anyone ever had problems come-a-longing from above the first >>> cell and if so, what's the solution?...and what are you doing >>> tomorrow? >>> > >>> > Thx, >>> > >>> > Bill >>> > >>> > Feather River Solar Electric >>> > Bill Battagin, Owner >>> > 4291 Nelson St. >>> > Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> > 530.284.7849 >>> > CA Lic 874049 >>> > www.frenergy.net >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus >>> software. >>> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> *Tump at swnl.net >> **www.SWNL.net* >> >> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >> */       Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >> /**/ 207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401 /* >> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >> >> */             ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**//**/NABCEP    "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >> /**/ >>               ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**/Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Nov 7 10:09:18 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:09:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HUP cell removal In-Reply-To: References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <831a4c8d-8bb8-ec8c-e9af-e403093133cb@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> <7be9c7b5-5e12-0953-f943-f3e76fd65df2@berkeleysolar.com> <150180b7-19ad-d492-f999-1622452e4b26@psln.com> <357ad851-7711-52d0-028a-4f3bb6eceed6@solarray.com> <546BF016-00F0-4123-9D1C-3F51181EE7E1@swnl.net> Message-ID: <674a0897-2a87-e860-b541-0ad195db87fd@solarray.com> They are made up of removable 2 v cells, and they are much better than the Surrettes.  They come with all the interconnects prewired, have a better warranty, longer cycle life, free shipping, and most importantly they Perform better.  They will outlast all of the batteries you listed, not just on paper, but in real life.  They also hold their voltage under load much better than the Surrettes.  Once customers go with the HUPs, we quit having to worry about them. We primarily have our power equipment in the garage of the house, then use a Bob cat to move the batteries straight off the truck and into their final resting place in under 30 minutes.  I sold and installed some of the other brands before settling on the HUPs many years ago. The previous install Pic was just demonstrating how they can be disassembled if needed, here's how we do it most of the time: Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/7/19 7:27 AM, frenergy wrote: > > I'm with you, the replacement battery for these HUPs are Surrettes. > > On 11/7/2019 4:26 AM, Tump wrote: >> My question is WHY do folks still install these steel cased Pain the >> A*& BBs when we have 2 volt cells (UnigiII/Surrette/Crown)that have >> up to 2400AH @20hr rate and are easily moved by hand, fork truck, >> shovel! 2 volt cells is always the way to go. >>> On Nov 5, 2019, at 11:47 PM, Ray >> > wrote: >>> >>> We've used an engine hoist before, but for tight spaces, we built a >>> rig out of unistrut with a small block and tackle.  Come along can >>> be hard to use, and puts dangerous metal parts over the battery. >>> >>> >>> I've since gone to a winch system, and also try to move the >>> batteries on rollers without taking the cells out. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> On 11/5/19 6:36 AM, Michael Packard wrote: >>>> I did this exact same thing for a 48v Hup one battery bank.  Engine >>>> hoist worked like a charm and my back was very thankful! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 12:09 AM Allan Sindelar >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Bill, I just did that a month ago, and it went amazingly >>>> smoothly. Earlier, on a similar HUP replacement, I told the >>>> (absentee) client that I would rent an engine hoist to lift the >>>> cells out of the steel cases, and he advised me that it would >>>> cost him less labor and travel if I bought one of the Chinese >>>> engine hoists from Harbor Freight for $90 and just kept it. >>>> Turned out to be a good application for CCC (thanks, Bob-O). A >>>> concrete floor, the engine hoist, a simple hand truck and a >>>> strong assistant to share the load made light work of both >>>> removal and installation - all 4,000 pounds of it, one 200 lb. >>>> cell at a time... so I went dancing that evening. >>>> Allan >>>> >>>> > On Nov 4, 2019, at 9:46 PM, frenergy >>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> > I'm going to have to remove the cells from 4 HUP Solar1 >>>> battery cases to change-out the pack (no option, bad access).  >>>> Anyone ever had problems come-a-longing from above the first >>>> cell and if so, what's the solution?...and what are you doing >>>> tomorrow? >>>> > >>>> > Thx, >>>> > >>>> > Bill >>>> > >>>> > Feather River Solar Electric >>>> > Bill Battagin, Owner >>>> > 4291 Nelson St. >>>> > Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>>> > 530.284.7849 >>>> > CA Lic 874049 >>>> > www.frenergy.net >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus >>>> software. >>>> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> > >>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> > >>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> > >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> > >>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> > >>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> *Tump at swnl.net >>> **www.SWNL.net* >>> >>> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >>> */       Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >>> /**/   207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401 /* >>> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >>> >>> */             ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> /**//**/NABCEP    "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >>> /**/ >>>               ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> /**/Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >>> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ngfggdiipgngdeca.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 179934 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matt at getpimby.com Thu Nov 7 14:45:35 2019 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 14:45:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two MPPT Charge Controllers, One PV Circuit Message-ID: Hi All, I recently posted a request for suggestions regarding a 600Vdc xfer switch. In the intervening time, I've been out to visit and review the system in question and found that the original installer had been called back and had added a second XW MPPT 80. The installer did not run separate strings to each of the two MPPTs, but instead they split the PV output circuit with split bolts and now feed the two MPPTs from this splice. A Schneider tech whom I spoke with said that this was a safety issue, but was unable to clearly explain why it posed a danger. Can anyone lend some insight? I can imagine how the MPPT function might be skewed, but the wire size of the feeders are adequate for the combined current of the full PV array and the units are producing power. -Matt I'd like to give the system owner advice with t -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Nov 7 15:07:05 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 12:07:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two MPPT Charge Controllers, One PV Circuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <916b487d80a0d6089c9946d805ce3283@127.0.0.1> It is against code if you do not follow installation instructions from Schneider or the manufacturer. This really a bad way to get a max harvest also. I am curious how it is working? The safety part is a bit of a puzzle but it is unintended to run this way. That in itself could be dangerous as the failure mode might not have been tested for this. I tested the -80-600 volt mppt here for them and have no recall of this concern. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 7 Nov 2019 14:45:35 -0500, Matt Sherald wrote: Hi All, I recently posted a request for suggestions regarding a 600Vdc xfer switch. In the intervening time, I've been out to visit and review the system in question and found that the original installer had been called back and had added a second XW MPPT 80. The installer did not run separate strings to each of the two MPPTs, but instead they split the PV output circuit with split bolts and now feed the two MPPTs from this splice. A Schneider tech whom I spoke with said that this was a safety issue, but was unable to clearly explain why it posed a danger. Can anyone lend some insight? I can imagine how the MPPT function might be skewed, but the wire size of the feeders are adequate for the combined current of the full PV array and the units are producing power. -Matt I'd like to give the system owner advice with t -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(R) 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com [3] www.getpimby.com [4] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.getpimby.blogspot.com [4] http://www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Thu Nov 7 17:43:39 2019 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:43:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two MPPT Charge Controllers, One PV Circuit Message-ID: Greetings, Wrenchies~ Matt Sherald's subject today resembles a client inquiry that is on my radar this week--perfect timing! Dave Angelini & All~ What if only the PV array negatives are in parallel but the PV positives are divided across more than one charge controller? My client is on the Outback platform instead of Schneider, the battery negative is grounded & by extension the PV negatives are also grounded. Client has no DC GFI since it's an older installation & he would add three Flexmax 80 controllers; we'll put appropriate DC breakers on each PV+ & Battery+ controller wire. Client's Mate 1 is old school so the revved up Flexmax 100 (with no built in display) is not of much interest in this case. The reason the client needs to share PV negative across the controllers is it's a retrofit situation with some wires in place & no simple way to add more. No inspectors are involved & I see no technical problem. Your thoughts? The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 7 19:51:12 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 16:51:12 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two MPPT Charge Controllers, One PV Circuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20DFA0D9-0ADE-4C0A-81FD-7561047E0FFA@gmail.com> Hi Mick, Outback and midnite have a common negative design. So what you describe works fine. You can connect the PV neg to the main neg buss and then connect to the CC, works fine. Ie only 1 negative connect to the controller. For the Schneider 60-150 controller it doesn’t as it measures on the negative side. So wouldn't work in that configuration I’m with dave on the 80-600. I can’t see it as a danger but not sure how the two controllers handle it. Would be interesting to see the output! You’re all good Jay > On Nov 7, 2019, at 2:43 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: > >  > Greetings, Wrenchies~ > > Matt Sherald's subject today resembles a client inquiry that is on my radar this week--perfect timing! > > Dave Angelini & All~ What if only the PV array negatives are in parallel but the PV positives are divided across more than one charge controller? > My client is on the Outback platform instead of Schneider, the battery negative is grounded & by extension the PV negatives are also grounded. > Client has no DC GFI since it's an older installation & he would add three Flexmax 80 controllers; we'll put appropriate DC breakers on each PV+ > & Battery+ controller wire. Client's Mate 1 is old school so the revved up Flexmax 100 (with no built in display) is not of much interest in this case. > > The reason the client needs to share PV negative across the controllers is it's a retrofit situation with some wires in place & no simple > way to add more. No inspectors are involved & I see no technical problem. Your thoughts? > > The Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Nov 8 11:57:05 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 08:57:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HUP cell removal In-Reply-To: <674a0897-2a87-e860-b541-0ad195db87fd@solarray.com> References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> <7be9c7b5-5e12-0953-f943-f3e76fd65df2@berkeleysolar.com> <150180b7-19ad-d492-f999-1622452e4b26@psln.com> <357ad851-7711-52d0-028a-4f3bb6eceed6@solarray.com> <546BF016-00F0-4123-9D1C-3F51181EE7E1@swnl.net> <674a0897-2a87-e860-b541-0ad195db87fd@solarray.com> Message-ID: Yes I like the HUPS for many of the same reasons Ray wrote:  I also like that depending on the site I can choose to move them in 900-1800 lb units (6 of the 2V cells in one steel can depending on model) or remove them individually (150-300lbs) and move them that way if needed. The install time if moved in the cans is only 3 intertie cables.  I do recommend that folks re-torque the factory installed interties though as they seem to loosen with thermal cycling. They also come with a great warranty and free shipping - the steel cases make them great for shipping to developing world in a container. And I've received nothing but the best service from NW Energy Storage. They are my go-to battery for wet cell Pb-acid for sure for large systems. Hope that helps. Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Ray wrote on 11/7/19 7:09 AM: > They are made up of removable 2 v cells, and they are much better than > the Surrettes.  They come with all the interconnects prewired, have a > better warranty, longer cycle life, free shipping, and most > importantly they Perform better.  They will outlast all of the > batteries you listed, not just on paper, but in real life.  They also > hold their voltage under load much better than the Surrettes.  Once > customers go with the HUPs, we quit having to worry about them. > > We primarily have our power equipment in the garage of the house, then > use a Bob cat to move the batteries straight off the truck and into > their final resting place in under 30 minutes.  I sold and installed > some of the other brands before settling on the HUPs many years ago. > The previous install Pic was just demonstrating how they can be > disassembled if needed, here's how we do it most of the time: > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 11/7/19 7:27 AM, frenergy wrote: >> >> I'm with you, the replacement battery for these HUPs are Surrettes. >> >> On 11/7/2019 4:26 AM, Tump wrote: >>> My question is WHY do folks still install these steel cased Pain the >>> A*& BBs when we have 2 volt cells (UnigiII/Surrette/Crown)that have >>> up to 2400AH @20hr rate and are easily moved by hand, fork truck, >>> shovel! 2 volt cells is always the way to go. >>>> On Nov 5, 2019, at 11:47 PM, Ray >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> We've used an engine hoist before, but for tight spaces, we built a >>>> rig out of unistrut with a small block and tackle.  Come along can >>>> be hard to use, and puts dangerous metal parts over the battery. >>>> >>>> >>>> I've since gone to a winch system, and also try to move the >>>> batteries on rollers without taking the cells out. >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> On 11/5/19 6:36 AM, Michael Packard wrote: >>>>> I did this exact same thing for a 48v Hup one battery bank.  >>>>> Engine hoist worked like a charm and my back was very thankful! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 12:09 AM Allan Sindelar >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Bill, I just did that a month ago, and it went amazingly >>>>> smoothly. Earlier, on a similar HUP replacement, I told the >>>>> (absentee) client that I would rent an engine hoist to lift >>>>> the cells out of the steel cases, and he advised me that it >>>>> would cost him less labor and travel if I bought one of the >>>>> Chinese engine hoists from Harbor Freight for $90 and just >>>>> kept it. Turned out to be a good application for CCC (thanks, >>>>> Bob-O). A concrete floor, the engine hoist, a simple hand >>>>> truck and a strong assistant to share the load made light work >>>>> of both removal and installation - all 4,000 pounds of it, one >>>>> 200 lb. cell at a time... so I went dancing that evening. >>>>> Allan >>>>> >>>>> > On Nov 4, 2019, at 9:46 PM, frenergy >>>> > wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > I'm going to have to remove the cells from 4 HUP Solar1 >>>>> battery cases to change-out the pack (no option, bad access).  >>>>> Anyone ever had problems come-a-longing from above the first >>>>> cell and if so, what's the solution?...and what are you doing >>>>> tomorrow? >>>>> > >>>>> > Thx, >>>>> > >>>>> > Bill >>>>> > >>>>> > Feather River Solar Electric >>>>> > Bill Battagin, Owner >>>>> > 4291 Nelson St. >>>>> > Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>>>> > 530.284.7849 >>>>> > CA Lic 874049 >>>>> > www.frenergy.net >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus >>>>> software. >>>>> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> > >>>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> > >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> > >>>>> > List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> > >>>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>>> *Tump at swnl.net >>>> **www.SWNL.net* >>>> >>>> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >>>> */       Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >>>> /**/   207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401 /* >>>> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >>>> >>>> */             ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>> /**//**/NABCEP    "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >>>> /**/ >>>>               ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>> /**/Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> -- >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 174103 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Nov 8 13:19:41 2019 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 11:19:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HUP cell removal In-Reply-To: References: <8df562d8-727a-ee7e-914c-9348ad2fc43f@berkeleysolar.com> <87f7edb7c00ab213dba00be92bfbdb38@127.0.0.1> <7be9c7b5-5e12-0953-f943-f3e76fd65df2@berkeleysolar.com> <150180b7-19ad-d492-f999-1622452e4b26@psln.com> <357ad851-7711-52d0-028a-4f3bb6eceed6@solarray.com> <546BF016-00F0-4123-9D1C-3F51181EE7E1@swnl.net> <674a0897-2a87-e860-b541-0ad195db87fd@solarray.com> Message-ID: <88A2A6FA-FEDD-49E3-AD52-D79557397065@sindelarsolar.com> Agreed on all points, and one more. The Northwest Energy Storage (www.hupsolarone.com) website is unsurpassed, and set up so that I can send clients to it, for dimensions and weights, capacities, proper care, min/max charging rates... and retail prices, so no questions about what the cost will be. Allan (P.S. - worst battery website: Ibe-inc.com for IBE industrial FLA batteries. Useless lack of info that hasn’t been updated since the WWW was invented.) > On Nov 8, 2019, at 9:57 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > Yes I like the HUPS for many of the same reasons Ray wrote: I also like that depending on the site I can choose to move them in 900-1800 lb units (6 of the 2V cells in one steel can depending on model) or remove them individually (150-300lbs) and move them that way if needed. > > The install time if moved in the cans is only 3 intertie cables. I do recommend that folks re-torque the factory installed interties though as they seem to loosen with thermal cycling. > > They also come with a great warranty and free shipping - the steel cases make them great for shipping to developing world in a container. > > And I've received nothing but the best service from NW Energy Storage. > > They are my go-to battery for wet cell Pb-acid for sure for large systems. > > Hope that helps. > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > > > Ray wrote on 11/7/19 7:09 AM: > >> They are made up of removable 2 v cells, and they are much better than the Surrettes. They come with all the interconnects prewired, have a better warranty, longer cycle life, free shipping, and most importantly they Perform better. They will outlast all of the batteries you listed, not just on paper, but in real life. They also hold their voltage under load much better than the Surrettes. Once customers go with the HUPs, we quit having to worry about them. >> >> We primarily have our power equipment in the garage of the house, then use a Bob cat to move the batteries straight off the truck and into their final resting place in under 30 minutes. I sold and installed some of the other brands before settling on the HUPs many years ago. The previous install Pic was just demonstrating how they can be disassembled if needed, here's how we do it most of the time: >> >> >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >>> On 11/7/19 7:27 AM, frenergy wrote: >>> I'm with you, the replacement battery for these HUPs are Surrettes. >>> >>>> On 11/7/2019 4:26 AM, Tump wrote: >>>> My question is WHY do folks still install these steel cased Pain the A*& BBs when we have 2 volt cells (UnigiII/Surrette/Crown)that have up to 2400AH @20hr rate and are easily moved by hand, fork truck, shovel! 2 volt cells is always the way to go. >>>>> On Nov 5, 2019, at 11:47 PM, Ray wrote: >>>>> >>>>> We've used an engine hoist before, but for tight spaces, we built a rig out of unistrut with a small block and tackle. Come along can be hard to use, and puts dangerous metal parts over the battery. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I've since gone to a winch system, and also try to move the batteries on rollers without taking the cells out. >>>>> >>>>> Ray Walters >>>>> Remote Solar >>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>>> On 11/5/19 6:36 AM, Michael Packard wrote: >>>>>> I did this exact same thing for a 48v Hup one battery bank. Engine hoist worked like a charm and my back was very thankful! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 12:09 AM Allan Sindelar wrote: >>>>>>> Bill, I just did that a month ago, and it went amazingly smoothly. Earlier, on a similar HUP replacement, I told the (absentee) client that I would rent an engine hoist to lift the cells out of the steel cases, and he advised me that it would cost him less labor and travel if I bought one of the Chinese engine hoists from Harbor Freight for $90 and just kept it. Turned out to be a good application for CCC (thanks, Bob-O). A concrete floor, the engine hoist, a simple hand truck and a strong assistant to share the load made light work of both removal and installation - all 4,000 pounds of it, one 200 lb. cell at a time... so I went dancing that evening. >>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > On Nov 4, 2019, at 9:46 PM, frenergy wrote: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I'm going to have to remove the cells from 4 HUP Solar1 battery cases to change-out the pack (no option, bad access). Anyone ever had problems come-a-longing from above the first cell and if so, what's the solution?...and what are you doing tomorrow? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Thx, >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Bill >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Feather River Solar Electric >>>>>>> > Bill Battagin, Owner >>>>>>> > 4291 Nelson St. >>>>>>> > Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>>>>>> > 530.284.7849 >>>>>>> > CA Lic 874049 >>>>>>> > www.frenergy.net >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > -- >>>>>>> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>>>>>> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >>>>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>>>> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>>>> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >>>>> Blair "TUMP" May >>>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >>>>> >>>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> -- >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 20:30:22 2019 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 20:30:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schott ASE modules Message-ID: I have a client with an array of Schott ASE DG-50 modules. I think they are the derated 200 watt units. A couple of them are showing some thermal cracking. If anyone knows a source for these please contact me off list. Many thanks. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC Hiltondier @ Gmail From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 16:38:32 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 13:38:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery hydration system info Message-ID: <14A05ABF-13E5-4071-BEDC-1DC89CE6B1FD@gmail.com> I’ve got a client who has a watering system made by Battery hydration systems who appear to out of business. Does anyone know of compatible replacement parts? Thx Jay Peltz Power. From william at millersolar.com Tue Nov 12 12:13:32 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 09:13:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two MPPT Charge Controllers, One PV Circuit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58693ef1e3524427f66fef73fb8073a4@mail.gmail.com> Matt: This connection is not advised for these reasons: 1. The assumption is that two controllers were installed because one charge controller could not handle the charging duties. Due to small differences in manufacturing tolerances, charge controllers never operate at exactly equal values. The charge controller working harder will get warmer. Thermal runaway is possible with the harder working charge controller working harder and harder until it is passing all of the charging current, exceeding its rating and risking damage, overheating and attendant fire risks. 2. If two of this particular charge controller are installed, one is supposed to act as GFDI enabled device. Cross connecting negatives could defeat this function. As usual, there is no substitute to doing a job correctly. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Matt Sherald *Sent:* Thursday, November 7, 2019 11:46 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Two MPPT Charge Controllers, One PV Circuit Hi All, I recently posted a request for suggestions regarding a 600Vdc xfer switch. In the intervening time, I've been out to visit and review the system in question and found that the original installer had been called back and had added a second XW MPPT 80. The installer did not run separate strings to each of the two MPPTs, but instead they split the PV output circuit with split bolts and now feed the two MPPTs from this splice. A Schneider tech whom I spoke with said that this was a safety issue, but was unable to clearly explain why it posed a danger. Can anyone lend some insight? I can imagine how the MPPT function might be skewed, but the wire size of the feeders are adequate for the combined current of the full PV array and the units are producing power. -Matt I'd like to give the system owner advice with t -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Nov 12 12:41:54 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 09:41:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Search for battery inverter Message-ID: <15448b57c82c15d340bd97a8cc7eb647@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am shopping for a battery inverter to add to legacy GT systems in AC coupled mode. I know this has been discussed generally here before but I did not see these criteria in particular addressed. Here are the requirements: 1. A 120/240 VAC output. 2. Built-in, programmable Aux relay. (I feel that frequency shift charging control should be backed up with a GT inverter disconnect relay. Therefore a built in, programmable Aux port simplifies the project.) 3. Good local interface and remote management via internet. 4. Economical (sub $2K). Here is how the inverters I am familiar with stack up: A. Outback FXR. Meets criteria 2, 3, 4. (Add an X-240 and meet criteria 1.) B. Magnum MS-PAE. Meets criteria 1, and 4 (I don’t like the local control module, I am not familiar with any remote capable monitoring systems). C. Conext 865-2524. Meets criteria 1, 4 (May meet 3 with com box--heard mixed reviews here. May meet 2 with creative use of AGS, anyone try this?) D. SMA Sunny Island. Meets none of the criteria. (May have a programmable relay, but all of the other negatives make it not worth my while to even look this up.) So far the FXR with an X-240 seems the best option. Second place is Conext, if I can tweak the outboard AGS to act as HBCO signal. Any other contenders that anyone can suggest? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Nov 13 12:00:37 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 09:00:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? Message-ID: <65824759-48c7-9053-58ab-e1b2020794bf@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey Folks, So does anyone have a reference I can show my AJH as to whether there is any current on the neutral of a single phase 240 VAC SB 7.7-40 inverter? 705.95(B) states: Neutral Conductor for Instrumentation, Voltage Detection or Phase Detection. A conductor used solely for instrumentation, voltage detection, or phase detection and connected to a single-phase or 3-phase utility-interactive inverter, shall be permitted to be sized at less than the ampacity of the other current-carrying conductors and shall be sized equal to or larger than the equipment grounding conductor. Be great not have to run 3/0 wire to my dedicated PV subpanel with 5 SB7.7s.  At 200 Amps I could use 6 AWG according to 705.95.  A huge savings in wire pull hassle not to mention copper. Are there any other practical considerations for those SBs to operate well if I were to go that low with the neutral? Anybody have any field experience with AJHs on this? Thanks, Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Wed Nov 13 12:37:45 2019 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 17:37:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? In-Reply-To: <65824759-48c7-9053-58ab-e1b2020794bf@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <65824759-48c7-9053-58ab-e1b2020794bf@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Jeff, An oldie but attached tech note explains. May Need to upsize G / N for voltage drop depending on run… Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jeff Clearwater Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 12:00:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? Hey Folks, So does anyone have a reference I can show my AJH as to whether there is any current on the neutral of a single phase 240 VAC SB 7.7-40 inverter? 705.95(B) states: Neutral Conductor for Instrumentation, Voltage Detection or Phase Detection. A conductor used solely for instrumentation, voltage detection, or phase detection and connected to a single-phase or 3-phase utility-interactive inverter, shall be permitted to be sized at less than the ampacity of the other current-carrying conductors and shall be sized equal to or larger than the equipment grounding conductor. Be great not have to run 3/0 wire to my dedicated PV subpanel with 5 SB7.7s. At 200 Amps I could use 6 AWG according to 705.95. A huge savings in wire pull hassle not to mention copper. Are there any other practical considerations for those SBs to operate well if I were to go that low with the neutral? Anybody have any field experience with AJHs on this? Thanks, Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Neutral Conductor Size for Sunny Boy Inverters_v2 (1).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 42596 bytes Desc: Neutral Conductor Size for Sunny Boy Inverters_v2 (1).pdf URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Nov 13 14:26:04 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 14:26:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy and Ring Chime Message-ID: Is anyone else aware of difficulties connecting an Envoy to a Wi-Fi network where there is a Chime extender installed? I have had repeated issues with the setup (trying to connect to the router, not the extender). Unplugging the chime results and success invariably. Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Thu Nov 14 12:02:01 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 17:02:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? In-Reply-To: References: <65824759-48c7-9053-58ab-e1b2020794bf@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Lloyd - great find! I am attaching a updated note that specifically calls out current products but has less code detail. Best regards - Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html SMA America Solar Academy webinars: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html Choose "English" and "Online" as filters. [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg][http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D54D07.DC1BFFF0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Lloyd Hoffstatter Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 10:38 AM To: Jeff Clearwater ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? Jeff, An oldie but attached tech note explains. May Need to upsize G / N for voltage drop depending on run... Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jeff Clearwater > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 12:00:37 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? Hey Folks, So does anyone have a reference I can show my AJH as to whether there is any current on the neutral of a single phase 240 VAC SB 7.7-40 inverter? 705.95(B) states: Neutral Conductor for Instrumentation, Voltage Detection or Phase Detection. A conductor used solely for instrumentation, voltage detection, or phase detection and connected to a single-phase or 3-phase utility-interactive inverter, shall be permitted to be sized at less than the ampacity of the other current-carrying conductors and shall be sized equal to or larger than the equipment grounding conductor. Be great not have to run 3/0 wire to my dedicated PV subpanel with 5 SB7.7s. At 200 Amps I could use 6 AWG according to 705.95. A huge savings in wire pull hassle not to mention copper. Are there any other practical considerations for those SBs to operate well if I were to go that low with the neutral? Anybody have any field experience with AJHs on this? Thanks, Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: SMA SB and STP Neutral Conductor Tech Note r06.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 162582 bytes Desc: SMA SB and STP Neutral Conductor Tech Note r06.pdf URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Nov 15 00:40:52 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 21:40:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery hydration system info In-Reply-To: <14A05ABF-13E5-4071-BEDC-1DC89CE6B1FD@gmail.com> References: <14A05ABF-13E5-4071-BEDC-1DC89CE6B1FD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4428e3f8-c439-e09d-dbab-502cff07e3d5@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey Jay, I've replaced a few of the older automatic systems with what I usually recommend in their place - an elevated 3 gallon plastic reservoir with a filling hole cut in the top - leading to a petcock and tube to another petcock controlled nozzle that can be brought to each battery filler cap and easily controlled to deliver the exact amount needed.  Add a flashlight and voila. However as you well know voila is not so easy as It does require the folks to actually remember to water their batteries.  An auto email every 3 months with a followup to see if they did it is probably as reliable as an automatic system that no-one checks on.  I don't know - have folks had good history with automatic systems? It's an uphill battle either way - and as you probably know - it really comes down to a client who "gets it"  - that their $5K-25K investment needs an hour of their time every 3 months or so. I have had some luck with service contracts - for local clients - unfortunately half my clients are spread half way round the world - so that doesn't help either in those cases. Probably not telling you anything you don't already know - but saw that no-one else responded so wanted to see if we could get a rise out of the list - perhaps someone out there knows of those parts? Best, Jeff Jay wrote on 11/11/19 1:38 PM: > I’ve got a client who has a watering system made by > Battery hydration systems who appear to out of business. > > Does anyone know of compatible replacement parts? > > Thx > Jay > Peltz Power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Nov 15 00:54:03 2019 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 05:54:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery hydration system info In-Reply-To: <4428e3f8-c439-e09d-dbab-502cff07e3d5@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <14A05ABF-13E5-4071-BEDC-1DC89CE6B1FD@gmail.com> <4428e3f8-c439-e09d-dbab-502cff07e3d5@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <5ddbbcd22e834688bf16558a086f304e@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hello, I've worked with a few different systems over the years. The system by aquapro has performed the best for us, with the few infrequent failures resulting in overflows. Which is better than some previous units that would fail to fill and boil cells dry if client wasn't paying close attention. Not sure on specifics of the old system, but plumbing is generally pretty flexible to adapt. https://aquapro-factory.net/ Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater Sent: November-14-19 9:41 PM To: RE-wrenches ; Jay Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery hydration system info Hey Jay, I've replaced a few of the older automatic systems with what I usually recommend in their place - an elevated 3 gallon plastic reservoir with a filling hole cut in the top - leading to a petcock and tube to another petcock controlled nozzle that can be brought to each battery filler cap and easily controlled to deliver the exact amount needed.  Add a flashlight and voila. However as you well know voila is not so easy as It does require the folks to actually remember to water their batteries.  An auto email every 3 months with a followup to see if they did it is probably as reliable as an automatic system that no-one checks on.  I don't know - have folks had good history with automatic systems? It's an uphill battle either way - and as you probably know - it really comes down to a client who "gets it"  - that their $5K-25K investment needs an hour of their time every 3 months or so. I have had some luck with service contracts - for local clients - unfortunately half my clients are spread half way round the world - so that doesn't help either in those cases. Probably not telling you anything you don't already know - but saw that no-one else responded so wanted to see if we could get a rise out of the list - perhaps someone out there knows of those parts? Best, Jeff Jay wrote on 11/11/19 1:38 PM: > I’ve got a client who has a watering system made by Battery hydration > systems who appear to out of business. > > Does anyone know of compatible replacement parts? > > Thx > Jay > Peltz Power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Nov 15 09:13:00 2019 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 09:13:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extending Enphase WiFi Range In-Reply-To: <5ddbbcd22e834688bf16558a086f304e@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <14A05ABF-13E5-4071-BEDC-1DC89CE6B1FD@gmail.com> <4428e3f8-c439-e09d-dbab-502cff07e3d5@villagepowerdesign.com> <5ddbbcd22e834688bf16558a086f304e@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: We have a Enphase ground mounted system that is 100 ft from the home.  The home's WiFi signal dies out about 10 from the Envoy's signal.  Has anyone had success extending the range of the either the home's or Envoy's range.  I have tried various range extenders and none have made any difference. Enphase support suggested buying their cellular modem, but it only a 5 year product. No word back yet on what happens after that.  Thank you, Chris From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Nov 15 09:20:17 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 09:20:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extending Enphase WiFi Range Message-ID: We have used enGenius WiFi range extenders successfully many times on distant ground mounted arrays to grab the existing customers signal, or boost it at the house.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Christopher WarfelDate: Fri, Nov 15, 2019 9:13 AMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Extending Enphase WiFi RangeWe have a Enphase ground mounted system that is 100 ft from the home.  The home's WiFi signal dies out about 10 from the Envoy's signal.  Has anyone had success extending the range of the either the home's or Envoy's range.  I have tried various range extenders and none have made any difference. Enphase support suggested buying their cellular modem, but it only a 5 year product. No word back yet on what happens after that.  Thank you, Chris _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Fri Nov 15 09:21:03 2019 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 14:21:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extending Enphase WiFi Range In-Reply-To: References: <14A05ABF-13E5-4071-BEDC-1DC89CE6B1FD@gmail.com> <4428e3f8-c439-e09d-dbab-502cff07e3d5@villagepowerdesign.com> <5ddbbcd22e834688bf16558a086f304e@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca>, Message-ID: We've used a variety of directional wifi extenders with external antenna and have had a 100% success rate. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Christopher Warfel Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 9:13 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extending Enphase WiFi Range We have a Enphase ground mounted system that is 100 ft from the home. The home's WiFi signal dies out about 10 from the Envoy's signal. Has anyone had success extending the range of the either the home's or Envoy's range. I have tried various range extenders and none have made any difference. Enphase support suggested buying their cellular modem, but it only a 5 year product. No word back yet on what happens after that. Thank you, Chris _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Nov 15 09:57:54 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 06:57:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery hydration system info In-Reply-To: <4428e3f8-c439-e09d-dbab-502cff07e3d5@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <14A05ABF-13E5-4071-BEDC-1DC89CE6B1FD@gmail.com> <4428e3f8-c439-e09d-dbab-502cff07e3d5@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <2da56a50aec5b5e83b53fc6a70e4da15@127.0.0.1> I usually finish the install with a note above the battery listing the retail replacement cost plus labor. I give the owner a manual on how to do it with the cost of failure at the beginning and end. I do not use automatic systems. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 21:40:52 -0800, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Hey Jay, > > I've replaced a few of the older automatic systems with what I usually > recommend in their place - an elevated 3 gallon plastic reservoir with a > filling hole cut in the top - leading to a petcock and tube to another > petcock controlled nozzle that can be brought to each battery filler cap > and easily controlled to deliver the exact amount needed.  Add a > flashlight and voila. > > However as you well know voila is not so easy as It does require the > folks to actually remember to water their batteries.  An auto email > every 3 months with a followup to see if they did it is probably as > reliable as an automatic system that no-one checks on.  I don't know - > have folks had good history with automatic systems? > > It's an uphill battle either way - and as you probably know - it really > comes down to a client who "gets it"  - that their $5K-25K investment > needs an hour of their time every 3 months or so. > > I have had some luck with service contracts - for local clients - > unfortunately half my clients are spread half way round the world - so > that doesn't help either in those cases. > > Probably not telling you anything you don't already know - but saw that > no-one else responded so wanted to see if we could get a rise out of the > list - perhaps someone out there knows of those parts? > > Best, > > Jeff > > > Jay wrote on 11/11/19 1:38 PM: > >> I’ve got a client who has a watering system made by >> Battery hydration systems who appear to out of business. >> >> Does anyone know of compatible replacement parts? >> >> Thx >> Jay >> Peltz Power. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 10:08:03 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 07:08:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery hydration system info In-Reply-To: <2da56a50aec5b5e83b53fc6a70e4da15@127.0.0.1> References: <2da56a50aec5b5e83b53fc6a70e4da15@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <426D13A3-5BAF-4FB6-A6D7-8F2396A1B392@gmail.com> Hi Dave and jeff, and others. The customer already has the system as is very happy with it. He was just looking to get some replacement parts, but the company seems to be gone, hence my question about old stock or compatible alternatives. Thx Jay > On Nov 15, 2019, at 6:57 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I usually finish the install with a note above the battery listing the > retail replacement cost plus labor. I give the owner a manual on how to do > it with the cost of failure at the beginning and end. I do not use > automatic systems. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > >> On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 21:40:52 -0800, Jeff Clearwater >> wrote: >> Hey Jay, >> >> I've replaced a few of the older automatic systems with what I usually >> recommend in their place - an elevated 3 gallon plastic reservoir with a > >> filling hole cut in the top - leading to a petcock and tube to another >> petcock controlled nozzle that can be brought to each battery filler cap > >> and easily controlled to deliver the exact amount needed. Add a >> flashlight and voila. >> >> However as you well know voila is not so easy as It does require the >> folks to actually remember to water their batteries. An auto email >> every 3 months with a followup to see if they did it is probably as >> reliable as an automatic system that no-one checks on. I don't know - >> have folks had good history with automatic systems? >> >> It's an uphill battle either way - and as you probably know - it really >> comes down to a client who "gets it" - that their $5K-25K investment >> needs an hour of their time every 3 months or so. >> >> I have had some luck with service contracts - for local clients - >> unfortunately half my clients are spread half way round the world - so >> that doesn't help either in those cases. >> >> Probably not telling you anything you don't already know - but saw that >> no-one else responded so wanted to see if we could get a rise out of the > >> list - perhaps someone out there knows of those parts? >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff >> >> >> Jay wrote on 11/11/19 1:38 PM: >> >>> I’ve got a client who has a watering system made by >>> Battery hydration systems who appear to out of business. >>> >>> Does anyone know of compatible replacement parts? >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> Peltz Power. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Fri Nov 15 11:29:29 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 08:29:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extending Enphase Wi-Fi Range Message-ID: <19300e3c3cd630e52463f1d88175bc03@mail.gmail.com> Friends: We use the Ubiquiti Nanostation M2 Loco exclusively. This is true professional grade equipment with an available unified management system which reports up and downtime via e-mail, among other benefits. They are only about $50.00. Being professional grade they are complicated to set up. Contact me off list for my programming matrix which should help. You do need POE for these devices. Inserted is a photo of one of these units configured for an E-gauge energy monitor under a house. We attached a short mast to the exterior of the plastic enclosure. The antenna can be rotated for best signal. I even have these stuffed inside walls to good effect. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 6:13 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extending Enphase Wi-Fi___33 Range We have a Enphase ground mounted system that is 100 ft from the home. The home's Wi-Fi___33 signal dies out about 10 from the Envoy's signal. Has anyone had success extending the range of the either the home's or Envoy's range. I have tried various range extenders and none have made any difference. Enphase support suggested buying their cellular modem, but it only a 5 year product. No word back yet on what happens after that. Thank you, Chris _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26460 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Fri Nov 15 12:39:51 2019 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 09:39:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extending Enphase WiFi Range In-Reply-To: References: <14A05ABF-13E5-4071-BEDC-1DC89CE6B1FD@gmail.com> <4428e3f8-c439-e09d-dbab-502cff07e3d5@villagepowerdesign.com> <5ddbbcd22e834688bf16558a086f304e@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <1573839591.53114195@webmail.finestplanet.com> i run my wifi router through this high gain panel antenna around 1/8 mile and get 4 bars of signal strength at my security camera. wireless internet is high frequency, so needs a clear path. this means removing tree branches and other obstructions; todd [ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008FH5UTG/ ]( https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008FH5UTG/ )[ ]( https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008FH5UTG/ ) On Friday, November 15, 2019 6:13am, "Christopher Warfel" said: > We have a Enphase ground mounted system that is 100 ft from the home. > The home's WiFi signal dies out about 10 from the Envoy's signal. Has > anyone had success extending the range of the either the home's or > Envoy's range. I have tried various range extenders and none have made > any difference. Enphase support suggested buying their cellular modem, > but it only a 5 year product. No word back yet on what happens after > that. Thank you, Chris Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Sat Nov 16 10:12:20 2019 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 09:12:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules Message-ID: So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday and noticed that every module was convex to the glass side. The center was 1/4 inch higher than the corners. Has anyone else seen this? Should I be concerned? Manufacturing issue? Intentional? Thanks, Kris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 5212725412301477941.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 179674 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Sat Nov 16 10:23:59 2019 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 09:23:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE78E8F-8A17-4513-95F0-B3F507CBD0DC@solarenergy.org> I’ve seen a system with a similar issue, visible with the naked eye looking across the fielded mods on a fairly large ground mount (and approx. 5-7 mm of “sag” across the short dimension of the mod). I cannot yet say that this is the cause, but we are seeing numerous module failures with arcing from cell to cell, burn marks at the bussing between cells, and cracked glass; while I don’t have proof, a hypothesis is that it is the sag in the mods causing this to happen. There has to be some maximum allowable deflection - it might be hard to track down or get from the mfg (especially if they know why you want the value), but I would try before putting too many hands on these mods. Brian > On Nov 16, 2019, at 9:12 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > >  > So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday and noticed that every module was convex to the glass side. The center was 1/4 inch higher than the corners. Has anyone else seen this? Should I be concerned? Manufacturing issue? Intentional? > > Thanks, > Kris > <5212725412301477941.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From frenergy at psln.com Sat Nov 16 21:25:04 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 18:25:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Probably is not the cause but hard not to notice the big ding in the cardboard at about the right spot to cause your "deflection" from just the right whack with the fork lift.  Did it affect all the mods? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 11/16/2019 7:12 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday > and noticed that every module was convex to the glass side.  The > center was 1/4 inch higher than the corners.  Has anyone else seen > this?  Should I be concerned? Manufacturing issue?  Intentional? > > Thanks, > Kris > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Nov 17 12:52:52 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 12:52:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003a01d59d6f$d7347e50$859d7af0$@glbcc.com> Was there any shipping banding circling the pallet and modules in the center of the module? Maybe someone in the shipping department got all gorilla on the banding machine? Obviously the packing cardboard pieces between the corners will cause some amount of space to be free in the center of the long sides of the modules and if banding were applied in the center where there was space available, it could be compressed and result in this kind of bending… From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kristopher Schmid Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2019 10:12 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday and noticed that every module was convex to the glass side. The center was 1/4 inch higher than the corners. Has anyone else seen this? Should I be concerned? Manufacturing issue? Intentional? Thanks, Kris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Sun Nov 17 17:17:31 2019 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 16:17:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The banding is a good thought, Glenn, except that the one module that was oriented the opposite way was deformed in the opposite direction. This rules out the forklift idea, too. I will check specs. I doubt that testing will reveal anything immediate, but I'm a bit concerned about the potential long term effects. On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 9:12 AM Kristopher Schmid wrote: > So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday and > noticed that every module was convex to the glass side. The center was 1/4 > inch higher than the corners. Has anyone else seen this? Should I be > concerned? Manufacturing issue? Intentional? > > Thanks, > Kris > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Nov 17 17:25:06 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 14:25:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30190233-F7A7-45ED-9643-21F38039B599@gmail.com> I’m wondering if it’s designed to account for gravity sag once the modules are mounted. Lots of modules I’ve seen especially the larger format ones seem to be concave with time. If I understand correctly, these are bowed up which would allow them to settle flat? Jay > On Nov 17, 2019, at 2:17 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > >  > The banding is a good thought, Glenn, except that the one module that was oriented the opposite way was deformed in the opposite direction. This rules out the forklift idea, too. I will check specs. I doubt that testing will reveal anything immediate, but I'm a bit concerned about the potential long term effects. > >> On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 9:12 AM Kristopher Schmid wrote: >> So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday and noticed that every module was convex to the glass side. The center was 1/4 inch higher than the corners. Has anyone else seen this? Should I be concerned? Manufacturing issue? Intentional? >> >> Thanks, >> Kris > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Sun Nov 17 22:53:12 2019 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 21:53:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules In-Reply-To: <30190233-F7A7-45ED-9643-21F38039B599@gmail.com> References: <30190233-F7A7-45ED-9643-21F38039B599@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good thought, Jay. That may be the case. On Sun, Nov 17, 2019, 9:30 PM Jay wrote: > I’m wondering if it’s designed to account for gravity sag once the modules > are mounted. Lots of modules I’ve seen especially the larger format ones > seem to be concave with time. > > If I understand correctly, these are bowed up which would allow them to > settle flat? > > Jay > > > > On Nov 17, 2019, at 2:17 PM, Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > >  > The banding is a good thought, Glenn, except that the one module that was > oriented the opposite way was deformed in the opposite direction. This > rules out the forklift idea, too. I will check specs. I doubt that > testing will reveal anything immediate, but I'm a bit concerned about the > potential long term effects. > > On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 9:12 AM Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > >> So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday >> and noticed that every module was convex to the glass side. The center was >> 1/4 inch higher than the corners. Has anyone else seen this? Should I be >> concerned? Manufacturing issue? Intentional? >> >> Thanks, >> Kris >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Nov 18 10:23:59 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 07:23:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules In-Reply-To: <30190233-F7A7-45ED-9643-21F38039B599@gmail.com> References: <30190233-F7A7-45ED-9643-21F38039B599@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5AD28E6E-336E-44F3-8D7D-C622BC73A4A0@villagepowerdesign.com> Yes good thought Jay but it strikes me if we are trying to offset the results of anticipated bowing with crowning its time for a beefier frame or thicker glass. REC modules went with 2 cross bars in their frame when going to 72 cell. I’ve been observing frames get thinner over time - wondering how a 30 mm frame could do the job on 72 cell mods when we used to have twice that on 60 cell mods. It’s great to save aluminum and weight but not at the expense of panel life. Can’t imagine the impact resistance goes up with less support never mind possible degradation to the wafers due to flexing? Any panel manufacturers on the List that can comment? Any other modules besides RECS using cross bars? Thanks Jeff Clearwater Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 17, 2019, at 2:25 PM, Jay wrote: > > I’m wondering if it’s designed to account for gravity sag once the modules are mounted. Lots of modules I’ve seen especially the larger format ones seem to be concave with time. > > If I understand correctly, these are bowed up which would allow them to settle flat? > > Jay > > > >> On Nov 17, 2019, at 2:17 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: >> >>  >> The banding is a good thought, Glenn, except that the one module that was oriented the opposite way was deformed in the opposite direction. This rules out the forklift idea, too. I will check specs. I doubt that testing will reveal anything immediate, but I'm a bit concerned about the potential long term effects. >> >>> On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 9:12 AM Kristopher Schmid wrote: >>> So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday and noticed that every module was convex to the glass side. The center was 1/4 inch higher than the corners. Has anyone else seen this? Should I be concerned? Manufacturing issue? Intentional? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Kris >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 10:39:17 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 07:39:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules In-Reply-To: <5AD28E6E-336E-44F3-8D7D-C622BC73A4A0@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <30190233-F7A7-45ED-9643-21F38039B599@gmail.com> <5AD28E6E-336E-44F3-8D7D-C622BC73A4A0@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Wrenches In the way back when years Sharp had one then two braces across the short side and stronger frames. Regarding the glass issue to me it sounds like poor quality and little QC of products. Again years ago l had a shipment of SolarWorld modules that the frames were bowed out on the long side, l contacted them and they stopped production to fix the problem, what has this module manufacturer said? On Mon, Nov 18, 2019, 7:24 AM Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Yes good thought Jay but it strikes me if we are trying to offset the > results of anticipated bowing with crowning its time for a beefier frame or > thicker glass. REC modules went with 2 cross bars in their frame when going > to 72 cell. I’ve been observing frames get thinner over time - wondering > how a 30 mm frame could do the job on 72 cell mods when we used to have > twice that on 60 cell mods. It’s great to save aluminum and weight but not > at the expense of panel life. Can’t imagine the impact resistance goes up > with less support never mind possible degradation to the wafers due to > flexing? > > Any panel manufacturers on the List that can comment? Any other modules > besides RECS using cross bars? > > Thanks > > Jeff Clearwater > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 17, 2019, at 2:25 PM, Jay wrote: > > I’m wondering if it’s designed to account for gravity sag once the modules > are mounted. Lots of modules I’ve seen especially the larger format ones > seem to be concave with time. > > If I understand correctly, these are bowed up which would allow them to > settle flat? > > Jay > > > > On Nov 17, 2019, at 2:17 PM, Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > >  > The banding is a good thought, Glenn, except that the one module that was > oriented the opposite way was deformed in the opposite direction. This > rules out the forklift idea, too. I will check specs. I doubt that > testing will reveal anything immediate, but I'm a bit concerned about the > potential long term effects. > > On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 9:12 AM Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > >> So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday >> and noticed that every module was convex to the glass side. The center was >> 1/4 inch higher than the corners. Has anyone else seen this? Should I be >> concerned? Manufacturing issue? Intentional? >> >> Thanks, >> Kris >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Mon Nov 18 12:03:46 2019 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 09:03:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules In-Reply-To: References: <30190233-F7A7-45ED-9643-21F38039B599@gmail.com> <5AD28E6E-336E-44F3-8D7D-C622BC73A4A0@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Here is a response from Jinko: On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:39 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > In the way back when years Sharp had one then two braces across the short > side and stronger frames. > Regarding the glass issue to me it sounds like poor quality and little QC > of products. Again years ago l had a shipment of SolarWorld modules that > the frames were bowed out on the long side, l contacted them and they > stopped production to fix the problem, what has this module manufacturer > said? > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2019, 7:24 AM Jeff Clearwater < > jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > >> Yes good thought Jay but it strikes me if we are trying to offset the >> results of anticipated bowing with crowning its time for a beefier frame or >> thicker glass. REC modules went with 2 cross bars in their frame when going >> to 72 cell. I’ve been observing frames get thinner over time - wondering >> how a 30 mm frame could do the job on 72 cell mods when we used to have >> twice that on 60 cell mods. It’s great to save aluminum and weight but not >> at the expense of panel life. Can’t imagine the impact resistance goes up >> with less support never mind possible degradation to the wafers due to >> flexing? >> >> Any panel manufacturers on the List that can comment? Any other modules >> besides RECS using cross bars? >> >> Thanks >> >> Jeff Clearwater >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Nov 17, 2019, at 2:25 PM, Jay wrote: >> >> I’m wondering if it’s designed to account for gravity sag once the >> modules are mounted. Lots of modules I’ve seen especially the larger format >> ones seem to be concave with time. >> >> If I understand correctly, these are bowed up which would allow them to >> settle flat? >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Nov 17, 2019, at 2:17 PM, Kristopher Schmid >> wrote: >> >>  >> The banding is a good thought, Glenn, except that the one module that was >> oriented the opposite way was deformed in the opposite direction. This >> rules out the forklift idea, too. I will check specs. I doubt that >> testing will reveal anything immediate, but I'm a bit concerned about the >> potential long term effects. >> >> On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 9:12 AM Kristopher Schmid >> wrote: >> >>> So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday >>> and noticed that every module was convex to the glass side. The center was >>> 1/4 inch higher than the corners. Has anyone else seen this? Should I be >>> concerned? Manufacturing issue? Intentional? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Kris >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Statement on Bowing Panels.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 246368 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 12:21:48 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 07:21:48 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules In-Reply-To: References: <30190233-F7A7-45ED-9643-21F38039B599@gmail.com> <5AD28E6E-336E-44F3-8D7D-C622BC73A4A0@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: David, Wrenches I do not see anything talking about glass just the frame and even if they included glass 1 mm over 1m this is still out of that tolerance, to me it sounds like poor quality control or is internally considered acceptable. Jerry On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:04 AM David Katz wrote: > Here is a response from Jinko: > > > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:39 AM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Wrenches >> In the way back when years Sharp had one then two braces across the short >> side and stronger frames. >> Regarding the glass issue to me it sounds like poor quality and little QC >> of products. Again years ago l had a shipment of SolarWorld modules that >> the frames were bowed out on the long side, l contacted them and they >> stopped production to fix the problem, what has this module manufacturer >> said? >> >> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019, 7:24 AM Jeff Clearwater < >> jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: >> >>> Yes good thought Jay but it strikes me if we are trying to offset the >>> results of anticipated bowing with crowning its time for a beefier frame or >>> thicker glass. REC modules went with 2 cross bars in their frame when going >>> to 72 cell. I’ve been observing frames get thinner over time - wondering >>> how a 30 mm frame could do the job on 72 cell mods when we used to have >>> twice that on 60 cell mods. It’s great to save aluminum and weight but not >>> at the expense of panel life. Can’t imagine the impact resistance goes up >>> with less support never mind possible degradation to the wafers due to >>> flexing? >>> >>> Any panel manufacturers on the List that can comment? Any other modules >>> besides RECS using cross bars? >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Nov 17, 2019, at 2:25 PM, Jay wrote: >>> >>> I’m wondering if it’s designed to account for gravity sag once the >>> modules are mounted. Lots of modules I’ve seen especially the larger format >>> ones seem to be concave with time. >>> >>> If I understand correctly, these are bowed up which would allow them to >>> settle flat? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 17, 2019, at 2:17 PM, Kristopher Schmid >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> The banding is a good thought, Glenn, except that the one module that >>> was oriented the opposite way was deformed in the opposite direction. This >>> rules out the forklift idea, too. I will check specs. I doubt that >>> testing will reveal anything immediate, but I'm a bit concerned about the >>> potential long term effects. >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 9:12 AM Kristopher Schmid >>> wrote: >>> >>>> So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday >>>> and noticed that every module was convex to the glass side. The center was >>>> 1/4 inch higher than the corners. Has anyone else seen this? Should I be >>>> concerned? Manufacturing issue? Intentional? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Kris >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Mon Nov 18 13:09:21 2019 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:09:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules In-Reply-To: References: <30190233-F7A7-45ED-9643-21F38039B599@gmail.com> <5AD28E6E-336E-44F3-8D7D-C622BC73A4A0@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Yes. I think that response was lacking. And it was dated over a year ago. On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 9:21 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > David, Wrenches > I do not see anything talking about glass just the frame and even if they > included glass 1 mm over 1m this is still out of that tolerance, to me it > sounds like poor quality control or is internally considered acceptable. > Jerry > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:04 AM David Katz > wrote: > >> Here is a response from Jinko: >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:39 AM Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >>> Wrenches >>> In the way back when years Sharp had one then two braces across the >>> short side and stronger frames. >>> Regarding the glass issue to me it sounds like poor quality and little >>> QC of products. Again years ago l had a shipment of SolarWorld modules that >>> the frames were bowed out on the long side, l contacted them and they >>> stopped production to fix the problem, what has this module manufacturer >>> said? >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019, 7:24 AM Jeff Clearwater < >>> jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes good thought Jay but it strikes me if we are trying to offset the >>>> results of anticipated bowing with crowning its time for a beefier frame or >>>> thicker glass. REC modules went with 2 cross bars in their frame when going >>>> to 72 cell. I’ve been observing frames get thinner over time - wondering >>>> how a 30 mm frame could do the job on 72 cell mods when we used to have >>>> twice that on 60 cell mods. It’s great to save aluminum and weight but not >>>> at the expense of panel life. Can’t imagine the impact resistance goes up >>>> with less support never mind possible degradation to the wafers due to >>>> flexing? >>>> >>>> Any panel manufacturers on the List that can comment? Any other >>>> modules besides RECS using cross bars? >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Jeff Clearwater >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Nov 17, 2019, at 2:25 PM, Jay wrote: >>>> >>>> I’m wondering if it’s designed to account for gravity sag once the >>>> modules are mounted. Lots of modules I’ve seen especially the larger format >>>> ones seem to be concave with time. >>>> >>>> If I understand correctly, these are bowed up which would allow them to >>>> settle flat? >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 17, 2019, at 2:17 PM, Kristopher Schmid >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> The banding is a good thought, Glenn, except that the one module that >>>> was oriented the opposite way was deformed in the opposite direction. This >>>> rules out the forklift idea, too. I will check specs. I doubt that >>>> testing will reveal anything immediate, but I'm a bit concerned about the >>>> potential long term effects. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 9:12 AM Kristopher Schmid >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday >>>>> and noticed that every module was convex to the glass side. The center was >>>>> 1/4 inch higher than the corners. Has anyone else seen this? Should I be >>>>> concerned? Manufacturing issue? Intentional? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Kris >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 14:46:37 2019 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 11:46:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Skystream wind turbine inop. Message-ID: I just got a call from a Skystream owner in which he said that it just stopped putting out power. I haven’t worked on one the yet. Any ideas what the failure modes are. He said ac power is getting to the turbine. Any suggestions on how to troubleshoot. I am assuming that the problem is up on the tower. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunengser at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 15:35:56 2019 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 12:35:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules In-Reply-To: <30190233-F7A7-45ED-9643-21F38039B599@gmail.com> References: <30190233-F7A7-45ED-9643-21F38039B599@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay Not sure what you are implying by this comment. I do not believe that glass is pre bowed by any glass manufacturer that I know of nor on purpose by a module manufacturer. Glass is manufactured shipped and stored flat on a pallet. How were the modules Shipped? If glass down with no packing in the middle of the glass to prevent sagging from truck vibrations, I would say that is the best explanation. Also I believe it depends a lot on how the glass is attached ( or not attached to the frame. Worse case no adhesion or just a rubber gasket would allow sagging from shipping glass face down or up. Best case a fully cured adhesive before shipping. If they are using PV adhesive caulk, (special w/o curing agents that can corrode electronics) and ship before it is cured it almost as bad as no adhesive. It is pretty much known that the best seal the edge of the glass in the frame with adhesive, cure properly and then ship on edge rather than glass up or down in the flat IMHO. Bill On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:57 AM Jay wrote: > I’m wondering if it’s designed to account for gravity sag once the modules > are mounted. Lots of modules I’ve seen especially the larger format ones > seem to be concave with time. > > If I understand correctly, these are bowed up which would allow them to > settle flat? > > Jay > > > > On Nov 17, 2019, at 2:17 PM, Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > >  > The banding is a good thought, Glenn, except that the one module that was > oriented the opposite way was deformed in the opposite direction. This > rules out the forklift idea, too. I will check specs. I doubt that > testing will reveal anything immediate, but I'm a bit concerned about the > potential long term effects. > > On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 9:12 AM Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > >> So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday >> and noticed that every module was convex to the glass side. The center was >> 1/4 inch higher than the corners. Has anyone else seen this? Should I be >> concerned? Manufacturing issue? Intentional? >> >> Thanks, >> Kris >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- William Hoffer 420 SE Wyers Street P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 sunengser at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 16:04:54 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 13:04:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Module bent or glass warped OK Kristopher is the glass warped or is the frame bent, looking at the pic, there is cardboard spacing each module so there is a gap. If the binders are in the middle then that will bend one or more modules on each side, now to bend them all the way through that center binder would have to be very tight or strapped on a truck in shipping. If it is the glass then its manufacturing and poor QC, my money if it is the frames is shipping and or packaging, but that's just me. Jerry On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 7:12 AM Kristopher Schmid wrote: > So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday and > noticed that every module was convex to the glass side. The center was 1/4 > inch higher than the corners. Has anyone else seen this? Should I be > concerned? Manufacturing issue? Intentional? > > Thanks, > Kris > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 16:21:06 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 11:21:06 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kristopher OK great, well not great to me it is a shipping packaging issue, the cardboard gap is spacing out each module and they were tightened down untill one by one the frames came into contact and crushed them together, the reason one is opposite is because it was installed backwards from the rest to protect it. Jerry On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:04 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Module bent or glass warped > OK Kristopher is the glass warped or is the frame bent, looking at the > pic, there is cardboard spacing each module so there is a gap. If the > binders are in the middle then that will bend one or more modules on each > side, now to bend them all the way through that center binder would have to > be very tight or strapped on a truck in shipping. If it is the glass then > its manufacturing and poor QC, my money if it is the frames is shipping and > or packaging, but that's just me. > Jerry > > On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 7:12 AM Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > >> So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday >> and noticed that every module was convex to the glass side. The center was >> 1/4 inch higher than the corners. Has anyone else seen this? Should I be >> concerned? Manufacturing issue? Intentional? >> >> Thanks, >> Kris >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Mon Nov 18 16:34:00 2019 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 15:34:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If they were deformed with a tightened strap, it seems to me that every other module would be bowed in the opposite direction...this is not the case. Every frame is bowed up to the glass side including the one on the end that was installed glass side in for protection. I will check the glass itself and the centerline of the module. Modules were palleted and shipped vertically as shown in the picture. Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 3:21 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Kristopher > OK great, well not great to me it is a shipping packaging issue, the > cardboard gap is spacing out each module and they were tightened down > untill one by one the frames came into contact and crushed them together, > the reason one is opposite is because it was installed backwards from the > rest to protect it. > Jerry > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:04 AM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Module bent or glass warped >> OK Kristopher is the glass warped or is the frame bent, looking at the >> pic, there is cardboard spacing each module so there is a gap. If the >> binders are in the middle then that will bend one or more modules on each >> side, now to bend them all the way through that center binder would have to >> be very tight or strapped on a truck in shipping. If it is the glass then >> its manufacturing and poor QC, my money if it is the frames is shipping and >> or packaging, but that's just me. >> Jerry >> >> On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 7:12 AM Kristopher Schmid >> wrote: >> >>> So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday >>> and noticed that every module was convex to the glass side. The center was >>> 1/4 inch higher than the corners. Has anyone else seen this? Should I be >>> concerned? Manufacturing issue? Intentional? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Kris >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Mon Nov 18 17:31:24 2019 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:31:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] kaco inverters usa contact? Message-ID: <1603147055.2891511.1574116284026@mail.yahoo.com> Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 21:46:45 2019 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 21:46:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kris, It’s my understanding that this is a fairly common defect with thin framed 72 cell modules. I have noticed this convex shape mostly on modules in the 30-35mm range of frame thickness and have personally seen this with 72 cell modules from Canadian Solar, REC, Hanwha and Yingli. I have yet to see an issue arising from this, however, the shape can make for an unsightly wave in an array. Lackluster response from the manufacturer but it seems like they have been made aware of this for some while and have chosen not to correct it, which may speak to the benign-ness of the issue (or to bad QC protocol). -Chris On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 9:46 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Kris, > > It’s my understanding that this is a fairly common defect with thin framed > 72 cell modules. I have noticed this convex shape mostly on modules in the > 30-35mm range of frame thickness and have personally seen this with 72 cell > modules from Canadian Solar, REC, Hanwha and Yingli. I have yet to see an > issue arising from this, however, the shape can make for an unsightly wave > in an array. > > Lackluster response from the manufacturer but it seems like they have been > made aware of this for some while and have chosen not to correct it, which > may speak to the benign-ness of the issue (or to bad QC protocol). > > > -Chris > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 4:34 PM Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > >> If they were deformed with a tightened strap, it seems to me that every >> other module would be bowed in the opposite direction...this is not the >> case. Every frame is bowed up to the glass side including the one on the >> end that was installed glass side in for protection. I will check the >> glass itself and the centerline of the module. Modules were palleted and >> shipped vertically as shown in the picture. >> >> >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 137 West 1st Avenue >> >> Luck, WI 54853 >> >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 3:21 PM Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >>> Kristopher >>> OK great, well not great to me it is a shipping packaging issue, the >>> cardboard gap is spacing out each module and they were tightened down >>> untill one by one the frames came into contact and crushed them together, >>> the reason one is opposite is because it was installed backwards from the >>> rest to protect it. >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:04 AM Jerry Shafer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Module bent or glass warped >>>> OK Kristopher is the glass warped or is the frame bent, looking at the >>>> pic, there is cardboard spacing each module so there is a gap. If the >>>> binders are in the middle then that will bend one or more modules on each >>>> side, now to bend them all the way through that center binder would have to >>>> be very tight or strapped on a truck in shipping. If it is the glass then >>>> its manufacturing and poor QC, my money if it is the frames is shipping and >>>> or packaging, but that's just me. >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 7:12 AM Kristopher Schmid >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday >>>>> and noticed that every module was convex to the glass side. The center was >>>>> 1/4 inch higher than the corners. Has anyone else seen this? Should I be >>>>> concerned? Manufacturing issue? Intentional? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Kris >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > > *Chris Sparadeo* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 042919-015652* > > Catamount Solar, LLC > > 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 > > C_(802) 369-4458 > > O_(802) 728-3600 > > www.CatamountSolar.com > > > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reosolar at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 22:00:27 2019 From: reosolar at gmail.com (Aaron Mandelkorn) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 20:00:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW Mystery Message-ID: This is a strange one. I have a Schneider SW 4024 installed in a remote area of Colorado. Cold and high altitude. Since the fall every time my customer has gone out to her cabin she noticed that the inverter is off. She proceeded to turn the unit back on by pressing the button on the SW. There are no error messages, no tripped breakers. She has no issues with the system when she is there and leaves the system on. Next weekend rolls around and she comes back out to find the inverter off again. Schneider tech support seems to feel that the inverter is turning off on its own due to low battery voltage. But there is nothing in the log that shown this. And there is a Ecogen 15KW installed to protect from ever seeing the low battery cut off. Has anyone experienced this? My customer always comes ont on a friday and seems to believe the day of the week has something to do with this or this be cold induced? It is rather pressing since winter is in full swing and a turned off inverter can mean frozen pipes. Any help out there? Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS E-MAIL MAY BE PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL, AND PROTECTED FROM DISCLOSURE. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, ANY DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Nov 18 23:52:00 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 21:52:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW Mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e337289-7eb3-381c-77fb-24c6b7fe904a@solarray.com> Totally sounds like Low voltage disconnect to me.  Many, Many times the generator does not start when it should or connect to the inverter.  I've had 2 systems recently, that both shut down, 1 had the LVD set really high, higher than the gen start, so that definitely didn't work.  The next one would start the generator when required, but the generator voltage regulation was incorrect, so the inverter would never connect to it.  Thinking the Ecogen is going to save the day is going to be recipe for disaster;  over the years I've come to despise the Ecogen.  I'm seeing 50% failures, and some of the failures are catastrophic, complete engine failures.  I don't have a suggested replacement, other than go big enough (+20 kW) to get into the 1800 rpm water cooled equipment, or just get a decent portable.  At least with a portable, you can haul it in for service. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/18/19 8:00 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > This is a strange one.  I have a Schneider SW 4024 installed in a > remote area of Colorado.  Cold and high altitude.  Since the fall > every time my customer has gone out to her cabin she noticed that the > inverter is off.  She proceeded to turn the unit back on by pressing > the button on the SW. There are no error messages, no tripped > breakers.  She has no issues with the system when she is there and > leaves the system on.  Next weekend rolls around and she comes back > out to find the inverter off again.  Schneider tech support seems to > feel that the inverter is turning off on its own due to low battery > voltage.  But there is nothing in the log that shown this.  And there > is a Ecogen 15KW installed to protect from ever seeing the low battery > cut off. > > Has anyone experienced this?  My customer always comes ont on a friday > and seems to believe the day of the week has something to do with this > or this be cold induced?  It is rather pressing since winter is in > full swing and a turned off inverter can mean frozen pipes. > > Any help out there? > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > > > > THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS E-MAIL MAY BE PRIVILEGED, > CONFIDENTIAL, AND PROTECTED FROM DISCLOSURE. IF YOU ARE NOT THE > INTENDED RECIPIENT, ANY DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING IS > STRICTLY PROHIBITED. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Mon Nov 18 23:59:11 2019 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 20:59:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW Mystery In-Reply-To: <9e337289-7eb3-381c-77fb-24c6b7fe904a@solarray.com> References: <9e337289-7eb3-381c-77fb-24c6b7fe904a@solarray.com> Message-ID: Aaron, Ditto what Ray said... I think it's a LVD, LBCO... but could also be a connection cabling issue have them put a wrench on the terminals, have them loosen first, then retorque, don't just have them "tug test" them as if they are already welded it'll look like a good connection... Make sure they do this with the system off and not charging as a spark here could ignite hydrogen, this would cause a battery to possibly explode... Not pretty or fun! If LVD or LBCO is set too high, that would prevent the Gen from Auto Starting. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for* *NABCEP CEC 2020* *using promo code* *20RBE* ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 8:52 PM Ray wrote: > Totally sounds like Low voltage disconnect to me. Many, Many times the > generator does not start when it should or connect to the inverter. I've > had 2 systems recently, that both shut down, 1 had the LVD set really high, > higher than the gen start, so that definitely didn't work. The next one > would start the generator when required, but the generator voltage > regulation was incorrect, so the inverter would never connect to it. > Thinking the Ecogen is going to save the day is going to be recipe for > disaster; over the years I've come to despise the Ecogen. I'm seeing 50% > failures, and some of the failures are catastrophic, complete engine > failures. I don't have a suggested replacement, other than go big enough > (+20 kW) to get into the 1800 rpm water cooled equipment, or just get a > decent portable. At least with a portable, you can haul it in for service. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 11/18/19 8:00 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > > This is a strange one. I have a Schneider SW 4024 installed in a remote > area of Colorado. Cold and high altitude. Since the fall every time my > customer has gone out to her cabin she noticed that the inverter is off. > She proceeded to turn the unit back on by pressing the button on the SW. > There are no error messages, no tripped breakers. She has no issues with > the system when she is there and leaves the system on. Next weekend rolls > around and she comes back out to find the inverter off again. Schneider > tech support seems to feel that the inverter is turning off on its own due > to low battery voltage. But there is nothing in the log that shown this. > And there is a Ecogen 15KW installed to protect from ever seeing the low > battery cut off. > > Has anyone experienced this? My customer always comes ont on a friday and > seems to believe the day of the week has something to do with this or this > be cold induced? It is rather pressing since winter is in full swing and a > turned off inverter can mean frozen pipes. > > Any help out there? > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > > > > THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS E-MAIL MAY BE PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL, > AND PROTECTED FROM DISCLOSURE. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, ANY > DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reosolar at gmail.com Tue Nov 19 09:06:15 2019 From: reosolar at gmail.com (Aaron Mandelkorn) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:06:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW Mystery In-Reply-To: References: <9e337289-7eb3-381c-77fb-24c6b7fe904a@solarray.com> Message-ID: Thanks all for the info. I did check the auto gen start settings and and they are set pretty high and at the 15 min, 30 min, and two hr triggers all above the LCBO setting of 23v. I have hard time believing that the system is crashing at night due to low battery and doing so so quickly that the gen isn't coming on. Could this be an issue of temporary voltage drop triggering the LCBO due to a large load coming on at night? Why would these events not be in the log and why isn't the generator coming on? A seems to work during the day and when I come out there to test. Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Nov 19 10:10:02 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:10:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW Mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E1650D-3F66-4ED8-A1F3-3C291180278E@gmail.com> Do you have the Schneider battery monitor or another brand? It will record lowest voltage since last reset. Would help in diagnosing the problem. Jay > On Nov 19, 2019, at 6:06 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > >  > Thanks all for the info. I did check the auto gen start settings and and they are set pretty high and at the 15 min, 30 min, and two hr triggers all above the LCBO setting of 23v. I have hard time believing that the system is crashing at night due to low battery and doing so so quickly that the gen isn't coming on. Could this be an issue of temporary voltage drop triggering the LCBO due to a large load coming on at night? Why would these events not be in the log and why isn't the generator coming on? A seems to work during the day and when I come out there to test. > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Nov 19 10:53:24 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 05:53:24 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW Mystery In-Reply-To: References: <9e337289-7eb3-381c-77fb-24c6b7fe904a@solarray.com> Message-ID: Does this location have cell reception, you might want to look at Egauge and set it up to monitor DC and AC over time to see what happens and when, no cell then you can still data log the information just have to look at it on site. this will give you the answer you are looking for, if its LBCO, Overload, Under voltage, what ever it is. , speculation will only get you so far even with the superior minds of the Wrenches, data does not lie but that's just me Jerry On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 4:06 AM Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > Thanks all for the info. I did check the auto gen start settings and and > they are set pretty high and at the 15 min, 30 min, and two hr triggers all > above the LCBO setting of 23v. I have hard time believing that the system > is crashing at night due to low battery and doing so so quickly that the > gen isn't coming on. Could this be an issue of temporary voltage drop > triggering the LCBO due to a large load coming on at night? Why would these > events not be in the log and why isn't the generator coming on? A seems to > work during the day and when I come out there to test. > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vince at solarenergydesign.com Tue Nov 19 11:16:14 2019 From: vince at solarenergydesign.com (Vince McClellan) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 08:16:14 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW Mystery In-Reply-To: <9e337289-7eb3-381c-77fb-24c6b7fe904a@solarray.com> References: <9e337289-7eb3-381c-77fb-24c6b7fe904a@solarray.com> Message-ID: This is a long shot but something to check, and, I’m guessing you already have this handled. Have you taped together your main system cables from the battery? That will keep battery cable inductance from bottoming out the voltage that the inverter sees. https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=1018 Vince McClellan Energy Design Sent from my iPad > On Nov 18, 2019, at 8:52 PM, Ray wrote: > >  > Totally sounds like Low voltage disconnect to me. Many, Many times the generator does not start when it should or connect to the inverter. I've had 2 systems recently, that both shut down, 1 had the LVD set really high, higher than the gen start, so that definitely didn't work. The next one would start the generator when required, but the generator voltage regulation was incorrect, so the inverter would never connect to it. Thinking the Ecogen is going to save the day is going to be recipe for disaster; over the years I've come to despise the Ecogen. I'm seeing 50% failures, and some of the failures are catastrophic, complete engine failures. I don't have a suggested replacement, other than go big enough (+20 kW) to get into the 1800 rpm water cooled equipment, or just get a decent portable. At least with a portable, you can haul it in for service. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 11/18/19 8:00 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: >> This is a strange one. I have a Schneider SW 4024 installed in a remote area of Colorado. Cold and high altitude. Since the fall every time my customer has gone out to her cabin she noticed that the inverter is off. She proceeded to turn the unit back on by pressing the button on the SW. There are no error messages, no tripped breakers. She has no issues with the system when she is there and leaves the system on. Next weekend rolls around and she comes back out to find the inverter off again. Schneider tech support seems to feel that the inverter is turning off on its own due to low battery voltage. But there is nothing in the log that shown this. And there is a Ecogen 15KW installed to protect from ever seeing the low battery cut off. >> >> Has anyone experienced this? My customer always comes ont on a friday and seems to believe the day of the week has something to do with this or this be cold induced? It is rather pressing since winter is in full swing and a turned off inverter can mean frozen pipes. >> >> Any help out there? >> >> Aaron Mandelkorn >> President / Founder >> Renewable Energy Outfitters >> www.reosolar.com >> Off Grid Depot >> www.offgridnow.com >> 970-596-3744 >> >> >> >> >> THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS E-MAIL MAY BE PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL, AND PROTECTED FROM DISCLOSURE. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, ANY DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reosolar at gmail.com Tue Nov 19 11:29:44 2019 From: reosolar at gmail.com (Aaron Mandelkorn) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:29:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW Mystery In-Reply-To: References: <9e337289-7eb3-381c-77fb-24c6b7fe904a@solarray.com> Message-ID: No cell reception or internet at this site. I am starting to think about cold and or altitude as a factor. Or maybe a large load that brings this small battery bank low enough to crash the system. I have no idea at this point. The LBCO and gen settings are all set up to endure LBCO does not happen. There are also NO error codes or events that are logged. Thanks all that have attempted to help. Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS E-MAIL MAY BE PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL, AND PROTECTED FROM DISCLOSURE. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, ANY DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 9:22 AM Vince McClellan wrote: > This is a long shot but something to check, and, I’m guessing you already > have this handled. Have you taped together your main system cables from the > battery? That will keep battery cable inductance from bottoming out the > voltage that the inverter sees. > > https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=1018 > > Vince McClellan > Energy Design > Sent from my iPad > > On Nov 18, 2019, at 8:52 PM, Ray wrote: > >  > > Totally sounds like Low voltage disconnect to me. Many, Many times the > generator does not start when it should or connect to the inverter. I've > had 2 systems recently, that both shut down, 1 had the LVD set really high, > higher than the gen start, so that definitely didn't work. The next one > would start the generator when required, but the generator voltage > regulation was incorrect, so the inverter would never connect to it. > Thinking the Ecogen is going to save the day is going to be recipe for > disaster; over the years I've come to despise the Ecogen. I'm seeing 50% > failures, and some of the failures are catastrophic, complete engine > failures. I don't have a suggested replacement, other than go big enough > (+20 kW) to get into the 1800 rpm water cooled equipment, or just get a > decent portable. At least with a portable, you can haul it in for service. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 11/18/19 8:00 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > > This is a strange one. I have a Schneider SW 4024 installed in a remote > area of Colorado. Cold and high altitude. Since the fall every time my > customer has gone out to her cabin she noticed that the inverter is off. > She proceeded to turn the unit back on by pressing the button on the SW. > There are no error messages, no tripped breakers. She has no issues with > the system when she is there and leaves the system on. Next weekend rolls > around and she comes back out to find the inverter off again. Schneider > tech support seems to feel that the inverter is turning off on its own due > to low battery voltage. But there is nothing in the log that shown this. > And there is a Ecogen 15KW installed to protect from ever seeing the low > battery cut off. > > Has anyone experienced this? My customer always comes ont on a friday and > seems to believe the day of the week has something to do with this or this > be cold induced? It is rather pressing since winter is in full swing and a > turned off inverter can mean frozen pipes. > > Any help out there? > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > > > > THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS E-MAIL MAY BE PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL, > AND PROTECTED FROM DISCLOSURE. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, ANY > DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Nov 19 11:39:04 2019 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 08:39:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW Mystery In-Reply-To: References: <9e337289-7eb3-381c-77fb-24c6b7fe904a@solarray.com> Message-ID: <3CFFE306-2BEF-4977-A883-8ECE1C5EC9A6@gmail.com> There should almost certainly be some error or event shown if the cause is external to the inverter. The issue could very well be the SW itself. Like Jerry said, eGauge is your friend. > On Nov 19, 2019, at 8:29 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > > No cell reception or internet at this site. I am starting to think about cold and or altitude as a factor. Or maybe a large load that brings this small battery bank low enough to crash the system. I have no idea at this point. The LBCO and gen settings are all set up to endure LBCO does not happen. There are also NO error codes or events that are logged. Thanks all that have attempted to help. > > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > > > > THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS E-MAIL MAY BE PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL, AND PROTECTED FROM DISCLOSURE. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, ANY DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. > > > On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 9:22 AM Vince McClellan > wrote: > This is a long shot but something to check, and, I’m guessing you already have this handled. Have you taped together your main system cables from the battery? That will keep battery cable inductance from bottoming out the voltage that the inverter sees. > > https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=1018 > > Vince McClellan > Energy Design > Sent from my iPad > >> On Nov 18, 2019, at 8:52 PM, Ray > wrote: >> >>  >> Totally sounds like Low voltage disconnect to me. Many, Many times the generator does not start when it should or connect to the inverter. I've had 2 systems recently, that both shut down, 1 had the LVD set really high, higher than the gen start, so that definitely didn't work. The next one would start the generator when required, but the generator voltage regulation was incorrect, so the inverter would never connect to it. Thinking the Ecogen is going to save the day is going to be recipe for disaster; over the years I've come to despise the Ecogen. I'm seeing 50% failures, and some of the failures are catastrophic, complete engine failures. I don't have a suggested replacement, other than go big enough (+20 kW) to get into the 1800 rpm water cooled equipment, or just get a decent portable. At least with a portable, you can haul it in for service. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 11/18/19 8:00 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: >>> This is a strange one. I have a Schneider SW 4024 installed in a remote area of Colorado. Cold and high altitude. Since the fall every time my customer has gone out to her cabin she noticed that the inverter is off. She proceeded to turn the unit back on by pressing the button on the SW. There are no error messages, no tripped breakers. She has no issues with the system when she is there and leaves the system on. Next weekend rolls around and she comes back out to find the inverter off again. Schneider tech support seems to feel that the inverter is turning off on its own due to low battery voltage. But there is nothing in the log that shown this. And there is a Ecogen 15KW installed to protect from ever seeing the low battery cut off. >>> >>> Has anyone experienced this? My customer always comes ont on a friday and seems to believe the day of the week has something to do with this or this be cold induced? It is rather pressing since winter is in full swing and a turned off inverter can mean frozen pipes. >>> >>> Any help out there? >>> >>> Aaron Mandelkorn >>> President / Founder >>> Renewable Energy Outfitters >>> www.reosolar.com >>> Off Grid Depot >>> www.offgridnow.com >>> 970-596-3744 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS E-MAIL MAY BE PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL, AND PROTECTED FROM DISCLOSURE. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, ANY DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Nov 19 11:40:01 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 08:40:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW Mystery In-Reply-To: References: <9e337289-7eb3-381c-77fb-24c6b7fe904a@solarray.com> Message-ID: <62d3cfe930b48ce5120f3823ececf021@127.0.0.1> Hi Aaron, I think you have to have higher settings and not let the battery get this low for your triggers. I do not know the capacity but you are on the edge. When you looked at events, did you look in each device and under faults and warning in the system section? Two places right? Really need more data like what are the loads. I really doubt this is altitude or temp related. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:06:15 -0700, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: Thanks all for the info. I did check the auto gen start settings and and they are set pretty high and at the 15 min, 30 min, and two hr triggers all above the LCBO setting of 23v. I have hard time believing that the system is crashing at night due to low battery and doing so so quickly that the gen isn't coming on. Could this be an issue of temporary voltage drop triggering the LCBO due to a large load coming on at night? Why would these events not be in the log and why isn't the generator coming on? A seems to work during the day and when I come out there to test. Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com [3] Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com [4] 970-596-3744 -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.reosolar.com [4] http://www.offgridnow.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 08:17:48 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 06:17:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW Mystery In-Reply-To: <62d3cfe930b48ce5120f3823ececf021@127.0.0.1> References: <9e337289-7eb3-381c-77fb-24c6b7fe904a@solarray.com> <62d3cfe930b48ce5120f3823ececf021@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hi Aaron, You may want to install a Combox and enable SD card logging. You can log 5 sec intervals I believe. Be sure to power it off of the Xanbus otherwise it will turn off with the AC. If you decide this needs to be done, be ready to sift through a lot of data. Also, as I recall, the Schneider AGS doesn't automatically decide it should start the generator if the system goes to LBCO too rapidly. This could have been addressed in subsequent firmware editions but I remember this. I suspect that the battery voltage dips enough for LBCO but recovers enough not to trigger start signal after the AC load is shut off. I suspect you may be right, that a large load is coming on and driving the battery below LBCO before the gen start signal can occur. I'd also look for evidence of corrosion, looking for stiff battery cables. You may try turning off all the solar when you are there and turning on all the large loads. Does the battery voltage rapidly crash? If so, do you have some bad cells? Are the batteries super cold? I also echo Rays thoughts of not relying on a generator when the place is unattended to keep pipes from freezing. Most generators will fail under those circumstances at some point. Good luck On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 9:40 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Hi Aaron, > > I think you have to have higher settings and not let the battery get this > low for your triggers. I do not know the capacity but you are on the edge. > When you looked at events, did you look in each device and under faults and > warning in the system section? Two places right? Really need more data like > what are the loads. I really doubt this is altitude or temp related. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:06:15 -0700, Aaron Mandelkorn > wrote: > > Thanks all for the info. I did check the auto gen start settings and and > they are set pretty high and at the 15 min, 30 min, and two hr triggers all > above the LCBO setting of 23v. I have hard time believing that the system > is crashing at night due to low battery and doing so so quickly that the > gen isn't coming on. Could this be an issue of temporary voltage drop > triggering the LCBO due to a large load coming on at night? Why would these > events not be in the log and why isn't the generator coming on? A seems to > work during the day and when I come out there to test. > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reosolar at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 08:36:14 2019 From: reosolar at gmail.com (Aaron Mandelkorn) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 06:36:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW Mystery In-Reply-To: <43E1650D-3F66-4ED8-A1F3-3C291180278E@gmail.com> References: <43E1650D-3F66-4ED8-A1F3-3C291180278E@gmail.com> Message-ID: This sw came on a prewired Epanel. The only monitering is through the scp or the classic charge controller via whizbang Jr shunt. I am thinking about adding the combox but not sure how helpful it will be since there is no internet or cell service at this site. Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 5:52 AM Jay wrote: > Do you have the Schneider battery monitor or another brand? > > It will record lowest voltage since last reset. > Would help in diagnosing the problem. > > Jay > > On Nov 19, 2019, at 6:06 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > >  > Thanks all for the info. I did check the auto gen start settings and and > they are set pretty high and at the 15 min, 30 min, and two hr triggers all > above the LCBO setting of 23v. I have hard time believing that the system > is crashing at night due to low battery and doing so so quickly that the > gen isn't coming on. Could this be an issue of temporary voltage drop > triggering the LCBO due to a large load coming on at night? Why would these > events not be in the log and why isn't the generator coming on? A seems to > work during the day and when I come out there to test. > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 09:23:20 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 07:23:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW Mystery In-Reply-To: References: <43E1650D-3F66-4ED8-A1F3-3C291180278E@gmail.com> Message-ID: If you enable SD card logging on the Combox, it should be helpful even without internet access. You would just read the data on site with a laptop with an SD card reader. Its definitely laborious though especially with 5 second data. I'd test a 15 minute data set to be sure that you are logging correctly if you've never done it before. On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 6:36 AM Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > This sw came on a prewired Epanel. The only monitering is through the scp > or the classic charge controller via whizbang Jr shunt. I am thinking > about adding the combox but not sure how helpful it will be since there is > no internet or cell service at this site. > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 5:52 AM Jay wrote: > >> Do you have the Schneider battery monitor or another brand? >> >> It will record lowest voltage since last reset. >> Would help in diagnosing the problem. >> >> Jay >> >> On Nov 19, 2019, at 6:06 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: >> >>  >> Thanks all for the info. I did check the auto gen start settings and and >> they are set pretty high and at the 15 min, 30 min, and two hr triggers all >> above the LCBO setting of 23v. I have hard time believing that the system >> is crashing at night due to low battery and doing so so quickly that the >> gen isn't coming on. Could this be an issue of temporary voltage drop >> triggering the LCBO due to a large load coming on at night? Why would these >> events not be in the log and why isn't the generator coming on? A seems to >> work during the day and when I come out there to test. >> >> Aaron Mandelkorn >> President / Founder >> Renewable Energy Outfitters >> www.reosolar.com >> Off Grid Depot >> www.offgridnow.com >> 970-596-3744 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Nov 20 09:33:37 2019 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 08:33:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW Mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The COMBOX is a great addition. It has a detailed seven day black box style recording of all the parameters, even if it not connected to the internet You can zoom in and see the battery voltage and current through the inverter. And you can read errors and warnings for each Schneider device. Plus, the COMBOX can record parameters to a SD card for later retrieval. I usually also add a low cost router so I can just jump on the COMBOX when I arrive to see what’s been going on. When I do that I also set a fixed IP address on the COMBOX. Thank you, Maverick > On Nov 20, 2019, at 7:36 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > >  > This sw came on a prewired Epanel. The only monitering is through the scp or the classic charge controller via whizbang Jr shunt. I am thinking about adding the combox but not sure how helpful it will be since there is no internet or cell service at this site. > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > >> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 5:52 AM Jay wrote: >> Do you have the Schneider battery monitor or another brand? >> >> It will record lowest voltage since last reset. >> Would help in diagnosing the problem. >> >> Jay >> >>>> On Nov 19, 2019, at 6:06 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: >>>> >>>  >>> Thanks all for the info. I did check the auto gen start settings and and they are set pretty high and at the 15 min, 30 min, and two hr triggers all above the LCBO setting of 23v. I have hard time believing that the system is crashing at night due to low battery and doing so so quickly that the gen isn't coming on. Could this be an issue of temporary voltage drop triggering the LCBO due to a large load coming on at night? Why would these events not be in the log and why isn't the generator coming on? A seems to work during the day and when I come out there to test. >>> >>> Aaron Mandelkorn >>> President / Founder >>> Renewable Energy Outfitters >>> www.reosolar.com >>> Off Grid Depot >>> www.offgridnow.com >>> 970-596-3744 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 10:23:29 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 08:23:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW Mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good point Maverick, You really need a router anyway to config the Combox. I carry one in the truck but a good idea to leave it on site. On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:33 AM Maverick Brown wrote: > The COMBOX is a great addition. It has a detailed seven day black box > style recording of all the parameters, even if it not connected to the > internet You can zoom in and see the battery voltage and current through > the inverter. And you can read errors and warnings for each Schneider > device. Plus, the COMBOX can record parameters to a SD card for later > retrieval. > > I usually also add a low cost router so I can just jump on the COMBOX when > I arrive to see what’s been going on. When I do that I also set a fixed IP > address on the COMBOX. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > > On Nov 20, 2019, at 7:36 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > >  > This sw came on a prewired Epanel. The only monitering is through the scp > or the classic charge controller via whizbang Jr shunt. I am thinking > about adding the combox but not sure how helpful it will be since there is > no internet or cell service at this site. > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 5:52 AM Jay wrote: > >> Do you have the Schneider battery monitor or another brand? >> >> It will record lowest voltage since last reset. >> Would help in diagnosing the problem. >> >> Jay >> >> On Nov 19, 2019, at 6:06 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: >> >>  >> Thanks all for the info. I did check the auto gen start settings and and >> they are set pretty high and at the 15 min, 30 min, and two hr triggers all >> above the LCBO setting of 23v. I have hard time believing that the system >> is crashing at night due to low battery and doing so so quickly that the >> gen isn't coming on. Could this be an issue of temporary voltage drop >> triggering the LCBO due to a large load coming on at night? Why would these >> events not be in the log and why isn't the generator coming on? A seems to >> work during the day and when I come out there to test. >> >> Aaron Mandelkorn >> President / Founder >> Renewable Energy Outfitters >> www.reosolar.com >> Off Grid Depot >> www.offgridnow.com >> 970-596-3744 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Nov 20 11:14:44 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 08:14:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW Mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The easy thing to do next time is to configure the gen start setting for 15 seconds. You have the 15 minute and 2 hours but from what this sounds like, you need to set the 15 second to around 24V. Then, you can add the combox or the new gateway and troubleshoot. The "picture" from the battery summary screen is hard to beat. It shows you what happened and seeing this screen is a notch above data logging, in most cases. This is why it is a mistake to use another brand of charge controller as the solar data is missing on this screen. All the shunts are internal to schneider devices for the picture. Faster to install and better in my opinion. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 08:23:29 -0700, Mac Lewis wrote: Good point Maverick, You really need a router anyway to config the Combox. I carry one in the truck but a good idea to leave it on site. On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:33 AM Maverick Brown wrote: The COMBOX is a great addition. It has a detailed seven day black box style recording of all the parameters, even if it not connected to the internet You can zoom in and see the battery voltage and current through the inverter. And you can read errors and warnings for each Schneider device. Plus, the COMBOX can record parameters to a SD card for later retrieval. I usually also add a low cost router so I can just jump on the COMBOX when I arrive to see what's been going on. When I do that I also set a fixed IP address on the COMBOX. Thank you, Maverick On Nov 20, 2019, at 7:36 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: This sw came on a prewired Epanel. The only monitering is through the scp or the classic charge controller via whizbang Jr shunt. I am thinking about adding the combox but not sure how helpful it will be since there is no internet or cell service at this site. Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com [5] Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com [6] 970-596-3744 On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 5:52 AM Jay wrote: Do you have the Schneider battery monitor or another brand? It will record lowest voltage since last reset. Would help in diagnosing the problem. Jay On Nov 19, 2019, at 6:06 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: Thanks all for the info. I did check the auto gen start settings and and they are set pretty high and at the 15 min, 30 min, and two hr triggers all above the LCBO setting of 23v. I have hard time believing that the system is crashing at night due to low battery and doing so so quickly that the gen isn't coming on. Could this be an issue of temporary voltage drop triggering the LCBO due to a large load coming on at night? Why would these events not be in the log and why isn't the generator coming on? A seems to work during the day and when I come out there to test. Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com [9] Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com [10] 970-596-3744 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [18] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [21] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [23] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [24] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [25] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [26] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [27] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [28] List rules font-family: 'times new roman', serif;"> Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:maverick at mavericksolar.com [4] mailto:reosolar at gmail.com [5] http://www.reosolar.com [6] http://www.offgridnow.com [7] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [8] mailto:reosolar at gmail.com [9] http://www.reosolar.com [10] http://www.offgridnow.com [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [19] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [21] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [22] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [23] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [24] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [25] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [26] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [27] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [28] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [29] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [30] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Fri Nov 22 16:06:06 2019 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 21:06:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] In search of replacement module Message-ID: Hey all, I have a customer who broke one module and I'm looking for a replacement. If I can find one with similar aesthetics, and the same or similar physical size, I don't think brand would matter. If you know where I could find a replacement, please let me know off-list. Thanks so much!! It was an REC peak 250 (REC's old standard 60 cell) Black frames with white back sheet thickness - 38mm (1.5 in) width - 991mm (39 in) length - 1665mm (65.6 in) Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emerkel15 at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 22:42:28 2019 From: emerkel15 at gmail.com (Evan M) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 22:42:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commercial inverter w/o neutral Message-ID: Designing with a CPS 50/60TL for the first time and I'm sure the contractor (my client) is going to want to leave off the neutral connection because Chint says it's optional. Not crazy about it but I have no good anecdotal evidence to point to it being a bad idea. Faults can still clear as long as there's an MBJ at the panel or xfmr (which there will be) so I'm not worried about safety. Just curious if anyone's had trouble with monitoring on these when there's no neutral installed. My preference is just to keep it there but downsize it to the EGC size to save on copper. Thanks in advance! // Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 22:47:16 2019 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 22:47:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600V DC contactor Message-ID: Hi wrenchers, I am currently on the look out for a DC contactor to suit my needs. A little background: Per Sonnen Batterie tech support’s recommendation I have installed a 10 kW SolarEdge HD Wave inventer coupled with the Sonnen Eco 12. Although the Sonnen Eco 12 uses an Outback Radian 8kW multimode inverter(of which Outback suggests to max AC couple input of 5kW) Sonnen says that AC PV input greater than 8kW will require a contactor to interrupt a string or two of the grid interactive inverter so that it’s output will remain less than the max 8kW input. That’s fine and well, but when asked directly, Sonnen didn’t have a part # for the contactor and suggested that anything over 150V DC would be difficult to find. Anyone know of a 600V rated contactor that would suit the bill? Essentially the contactor would need to sense grid interruption (via a 15A-AC breaker) and open a 600 V rated DC string. I’ve done some preliminary searching and have come up empty handed. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Best, Chris -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Nov 23 01:46:01 2019 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 01:46:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600V DC contactor Message-ID: Gigavac.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Chris SparadeoDate: Fri, Nov 22, 2019 10:47 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] 600V DC contactorHi wrenchers,I am currently on the look out for a DC contactor to suit my needs. A little background:Per Sonnen Batterie tech support’s recommendation I have installed a 10 kW SolarEdge HD Wave inventer coupled with the Sonnen Eco 12. Although the Sonnen Eco 12 uses an Outback Radian 8kW multimode inverter(of which Outback suggests to max AC couple input of 5kW) Sonnen says that AC PV input greater than 8kW will require a contactor  to interrupt a string or two of the grid interactive inverter so that it’s output will remain less than the max 8kW input. That’s fine and well, but when asked directly, Sonnen didn’t have a part # for the contactor and suggested that anything over 150V DC would be difficult to find. Anyone know of a 600V rated contactor that would suit the bill? Essentially the contactor would need to sense grid interruption (via a 15A-AC breaker) and open a 600 V rated DC string. I’ve done some preliminary searching and have come up empty handed. Any input would be greatly appreciated.Best,Chris -- Chris SparadeoC_802-369-4458H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Nov 23 09:49:39 2019 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 10:49:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600V DC contactor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://www.amazon.com/Siemens-3TC48-17-0B-Pole-Contactor-600V/dp/B00WH0QNHA I've done this with Sonnen previously, interrupted the inverter output to precent power being sent back to the grid. You might look at to inverters and interrupt one. On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 11:47 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Hi wrenchers, > > > I am currently on the look out for a DC contactor to suit my needs. A > little background: > > > Per Sonnen Batterie tech support’s recommendation I have installed a 10 kW > SolarEdge HD Wave inventer coupled with the Sonnen Eco 12. Although the > Sonnen Eco 12 uses an Outback Radian 8kW multimode inverter(of which > Outback suggests to max AC couple input of 5kW) Sonnen says that AC PV > input greater than 8kW will require a contactor to interrupt a string or > two of the grid interactive inverter so that it’s output will remain less > than the max 8kW input. That’s fine and well, but when asked directly, > Sonnen didn’t have a part # for the contactor and suggested that anything > over 150V DC would be difficult to find. Anyone know of a 600V rated > contactor that would suit the bill? Essentially the contactor would need to > sense grid interruption (via a 15A-AC breaker) and open a 600 V rated DC > string. > > > I’ve done some preliminary searching and have come up empty handed. Any > input would be greatly appreciated. > > > Best, > > > Chris > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Nov 23 10:08:22 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 07:08:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Message-ID: <4E864B66-F135-4B3A-AC81-92D5135931A3@gmail.com> Hi all I am replacing some old Enphase under the new replacement program. This one came with adapters to fit from the module Tyco ends to the inverterMC4. Except, the other end is Amphonel, not MC4. And the inverters are MC4. Is this the normal way from Enphase or did The customer get something unusual/wrong. Thx Jay Peltz power. From larry at starlightsolar.com Sat Nov 23 15:32:33 2019 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:32:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600V DC contactor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6BE7EB82-2A72-48D8-A90A-BC986BD303C5@starlightsolar.com> We have used Gigavac in some of our Li-ion EMS systems for many years with hundreds in the field and no failures. GX11 good to 800Vdc. https://www.gigavac.com/catalog/power-products/gx-series Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 22, 2019, at 8:47 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: Hi wrenchers, I am currently on the look out for a DC contactor to suit my needs. A little background: Per Sonnen Batterie tech support’s recommendation I have installed a 10 kW SolarEdge HD Wave inventer coupled with the Sonnen Eco 12. Although the Sonnen Eco 12 uses an Outback Radian 8kW multimode inverter(of which Outback suggests to max AC couple input of 5kW) Sonnen says that AC PV input greater than 8kW will require a contactor to interrupt a string or two of the grid interactive inverter so that it’s output will remain less than the max 8kW input. That’s fine and well, but when asked directly, Sonnen didn’t have a part # for the contactor and suggested that anything over 150V DC would be difficult to find. Anyone know of a 600V rated contactor that would suit the bill? Essentially the contactor would need to sense grid interruption (via a 15A-AC breaker) and open a 600 V rated DC string. I’ve done some preliminary searching and have come up empty handed. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Best, Chris -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Nov 23 19:48:55 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 19:48:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600V DC contactor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <033e01d5a260$f5114ed0$df33ec70$@glbcc.com> Not sure if the application notes are still available – here is one I have had since taking their training a couple of years ago. Hope it helps. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Sparadeo Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019 10:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600V DC contactor Hi wrenchers, I am currently on the look out for a DC contactor to suit my needs. A little background: Per Sonnen Batterie tech support’s recommendation I have installed a 10 kW SolarEdge HD Wave inventer coupled with the Sonnen Eco 12. Although the Sonnen Eco 12 uses an Outback Radian 8kW multimode inverter(of which Outback suggests to max AC couple input of 5kW) Sonnen says that AC PV input greater than 8kW will require a contactor to interrupt a string or two of the grid interactive inverter so that it’s output will remain less than the max 8kW input. That’s fine and well, but when asked directly, Sonnen didn’t have a part # for the contactor and suggested that anything over 150V DC would be difficult to find. Anyone know of a 600V rated contactor that would suit the bill? Essentially the contactor would need to sense grid interruption (via a 15A-AC breaker) and open a 600 V rated DC string. I’ve done some preliminary searching and have come up empty handed. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Best, Chris -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Application Note 8 Using PV inverters larger than 8kW.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 415354 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Sun Nov 24 10:07:10 2019 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 10:07:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600V DC contactor In-Reply-To: References: <033e01d5a260$f5114ed0$df33ec70$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. Looks like I have 3 solid options to work with. Chris, this specific project was designed with two points of interconnection. One 10kW inverter on the Sonnen’s critical loads panel and the other 10 kW on the main distribution panel. Wanting to stick with the same manufacturer while avoiding having to use 3 separate inverters (and an additional accumulation panel for the 2 inverters upstream of the Sonnen) I figured that the DC contactor trick would probably be the easiest way out. Thanks again for the assist On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 10:06 AM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. Looks like I have 3 solid options to > work with. > > Chris, this specific project was designed with two points of > interconnection. One 10kW inverter on the Sonnen’s critical loads panel and > the other 10 kW on the main distribution panel. Wanting to stick with the > same manufacturer while avoiding having to use 3 separate inverters (and an > additional accumulation panel for the 2 inverters upstream of the Sonnen) I > figured that the DC contactor trick would probably be the easiest way out. > > Thanks again for the assist > > On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 7:49 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > >> Not sure if the application notes are still available – here is one I >> have had since taking their training a couple of years ago. Hope it helps. >> >> >> >> -Glenn >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Chris Sparadeo >> *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2019 10:47 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] 600V DC contactor >> >> >> >> Hi wrenchers, >> >> >> >> I am currently on the look out for a DC contactor to suit my needs. A >> little background: >> >> >> >> Per Sonnen Batterie tech support’s recommendation I have installed a 10 >> kW SolarEdge HD Wave inventer coupled with the Sonnen Eco 12. Although the >> Sonnen Eco 12 uses an Outback Radian 8kW multimode inverter(of which >> Outback suggests to max AC couple input of 5kW) Sonnen says that AC PV >> input greater than 8kW will require a contactor to interrupt a string >> or two of the grid interactive inverter so that it’s output will remain >> less than the max 8kW input. That’s fine and well, but when asked directly, >> Sonnen didn’t have a part # for the contactor and suggested that anything >> over 150V DC would be difficult to find. Anyone know of a 600V rated >> contactor that would suit the bill? Essentially the contactor would need to >> sense grid interruption (via a 15A-AC breaker) and open a 600 V rated DC >> string. >> >> >> >> I’ve done some preliminary searching and have come up empty handed. Any >> input would be greatly appreciated. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> Chris >> >> -- >> >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> >> H_802-728-3059 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > > *Chris Sparadeo* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 042919-015652* > > Catamount Solar, LLC > > 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 > > C_(802) 369-4458 > > O_(802) 728-3600 > > www.CatamountSolar.com > > > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Nov 25 11:46:44 2019 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:46:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase In-Reply-To: <4E864B66-F135-4B3A-AC81-92D5135931A3@gmail.com> References: <4E864B66-F135-4B3A-AC81-92D5135931A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Ran into the exact situation last install season with Enphase. After a lot of back and forth emails with pictures basically showing them I wasn't losing it, they finally deduced that they were packaging them wrong. So the package part number is correct but the adaptor inside the package is wrong. You'll have to dig deep into their engineering staff to clear this one up. I'm sorry but I couldn't find any emails on who I ended up dealing with on the issue. Christopher On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:45 AM Jay wrote: > Hi all > > I am replacing some old Enphase under the new replacement program. > This one came with adapters to fit from the module Tyco ends to the > inverterMC4. > > Except, the other end is Amphonel, not MC4. And the inverters are MC4. > > Is this the normal way from > Enphase or did The customer get something unusual/wrong. > > Thx > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Mon Nov 25 11:53:41 2019 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:53:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase In-Reply-To: References: <4E864B66-F135-4B3A-AC81-92D5135931A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1700982524.6256227.1574700821445@mail.yahoo.com> And with all Enphase adapters, don't forget to check for continuity and connector seating before assembling. On occasion, we've found opens in the adapters. bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com On Monday, November 25, 2019, 11:47:01 AM EST, Chris Schaefer wrote: Hi Jay, Ran into the exact situation last install season with Enphase. After a lot of back and forth emails with pictures basically showing them I wasn't losing it, they finally deduced that they were packaging them wrong. So the package part number is correct but the adaptor inside the package is wrong. You'll have to dig deep into their engineering staff to clear this one up. I'm sorry but I couldn't find any emails on who I ended up dealing with on the issue. Christopher On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:45 AM Jay wrote: Hi all I am replacing some old Enphase under the new replacement program. This one came with adapters to fit from the module Tyco ends to the inverterMC4. Except, the other end is Amphonel, not MC4. And the inverters are MC4. Is this the normal way from Enphase or did The customer get something unusual/wrong. Thx Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870  5115South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson,the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" willcease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and giveto those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Mon Nov 25 14:06:32 2019 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 19:06:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] automatic transfer switches References: <1338841230.6351165.1574708792575.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1338841230.6351165.1574708792575@mail.yahoo.com> hi folks-- We're installing a grid-tied, battery backup system on a farm where the service entrance is on a pole in the yard. At the single-phase, 240v, service entrance, there are two main breaker subpanels--one going to the house and one to the barn. The buildings are each about 100 feet away from the pole in opposite directions. The PV/battery system is located in the barn. When utility power is lost and the battery backup kicks in, we are looking for a way to bypass the house subpanel at the pole so it won't backfeed the grid. When the grid drops out, we need to tie the backup power coming from the barn to the line going to the house. We're thinking an automatic transfer switch installed at the pole will do the job, but the transfer switches seem to have built in delays to work with starting a generator. The switch does not have to be service entrance rated. It looks like the Asco 300 series has time delay adjustments, but it is pricey and has a seven-week lead time. (Thank-you PG&E) The battery backup system will switch over in milliseconds and we were hoping to find something similar for the transfer operation at the pole.  We're looking for something simple--hopefully a basic transfer switch that will quickly switch and drop out when grid power is restored. Would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Nov 26 01:57:05 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 22:57:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] automatic transfer switches In-Reply-To: <1338841230.6351165.1574708792575@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1338841230.6351165.1574708792575.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1338841230.6351165.1574708792575@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There is the SMA Automatic transfer switch if you go with the SMA battery inverter and SMA pv inverter, it can be located seperate of the battery and inverter and will take up to 30 kwhrs. of capacity Just a thought On Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 10:52 PM Bill Hennessy wrote: > hi folks-- > > We're installing a grid-tied, battery backup system on a farm where the > service entrance is on a pole in the yard. At the single-phase, 240v, > service entrance, there are two main breaker subpanels--one going to the > house and one to the barn. The buildings are each about 100 feet away from > the pole in opposite directions. The PV/battery system is located in the > barn. When utility power is lost and the battery backup kicks in, we are > looking for a way to bypass the house subpanel at the pole so it won't > backfeed the grid. > > When the grid drops out, we need to tie the backup power coming from the > barn to the line going to the house. We're thinking an automatic transfer > switch installed at the pole will do the job, but the transfer switches > seem to have built in delays to work with starting a generator. The > switch does not have to be service entrance rated. > > It looks like the Asco 300 series has time delay adjustments, but it is > pricey and has a seven-week lead time. (Thank-you PG&E) > > The battery backup system will switch over in milliseconds and we were > hoping to find something similar for the transfer operation at the pole. We're > looking for something simple--hopefully a basic transfer switch that will > quickly switch and drop out when grid power is restored. > > Would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions. > > regards, bill > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Nov 26 07:09:25 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 05:09:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] automatic transfer switches In-Reply-To: References: <1338841230.6351165.1574708792575.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1338841230.6351165.1574708792575@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill, We just did something like this with a hydro plant and backup solar site. We ended up using a Kohler RDT transfer switch with the accessory board. With the accessory board, its possible to adjust down to about ~1 second transfer, and without the accessory board, its ~3 second transfer. The RDT switch is relatively cheap and well made in various builds. You just need to keep the backup inverter voltage output continuously on the emergency terminals. Good Luck On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 11:57 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > There is the SMA Automatic transfer switch if you go with the SMA battery > inverter and SMA pv inverter, it can be located seperate of the battery and > inverter and will take up to 30 kwhrs. of capacity > Just a thought > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 10:52 PM Bill Hennessy wrote: > >> hi folks-- >> >> We're installing a grid-tied, battery backup system on a farm where the >> service entrance is on a pole in the yard. At the single-phase, 240v, >> service entrance, there are two main breaker subpanels--one going to the >> house and one to the barn. The buildings are each about 100 feet away from >> the pole in opposite directions. The PV/battery system is located in the >> barn. When utility power is lost and the battery backup kicks in, we are >> looking for a way to bypass the house subpanel at the pole so it won't >> backfeed the grid. >> >> When the grid drops out, we need to tie the backup power coming from the >> barn to the line going to the house. We're thinking an automatic transfer >> switch installed at the pole will do the job, but the transfer switches >> seem to have built in delays to work with starting a generator. The >> switch does not have to be service entrance rated. >> >> It looks like the Asco 300 series has time delay adjustments, but it is >> pricey and has a seven-week lead time. (Thank-you PG&E) >> >> The battery backup system will switch over in milliseconds and we were >> hoping to find something similar for the transfer operation at the pole. We're >> looking for something simple--hopefully a basic transfer switch that will >> quickly switch and drop out when grid power is restored. >> >> Would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions. >> >> regards, bill >> >> Bill Hennessy >> Berks Solar, LLC >> 371 Centennial Rd >> Mertztown, PA 19539 >> >> o 610 682 4300 >> c 484 560 4666 >> NABCEP certified installer >> PA contractor #44411 >> www.berkssolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Nov 26 08:18:38 2019 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 09:18:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] automatic transfer switches In-Reply-To: References: <1338841230.6351165.1574708792575.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1338841230.6351165.1574708792575@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If you only want to change over, why not use a contactor with three poles, a NO and NC contact? that will switch instantly. Use Utility to power the coil, it will switch to utility when the power is restored. On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 2:57 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > There is the SMA Automatic transfer switch if you go with the SMA battery > inverter and SMA pv inverter, it can be located seperate of the battery and > inverter and will take up to 30 kwhrs. of capacity > Just a thought > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 10:52 PM Bill Hennessy wrote: > >> hi folks-- >> >> We're installing a grid-tied, battery backup system on a farm where the >> service entrance is on a pole in the yard. At the single-phase, 240v, >> service entrance, there are two main breaker subpanels--one going to the >> house and one to the barn. The buildings are each about 100 feet away from >> the pole in opposite directions. The PV/battery system is located in the >> barn. When utility power is lost and the battery backup kicks in, we are >> looking for a way to bypass the house subpanel at the pole so it won't >> backfeed the grid. >> >> When the grid drops out, we need to tie the backup power coming from the >> barn to the line going to the house. We're thinking an automatic transfer >> switch installed at the pole will do the job, but the transfer switches >> seem to have built in delays to work with starting a generator. The >> switch does not have to be service entrance rated. >> >> It looks like the Asco 300 series has time delay adjustments, but it is >> pricey and has a seven-week lead time. (Thank-you PG&E) >> >> The battery backup system will switch over in milliseconds and we were >> hoping to find something similar for the transfer operation at the pole. We're >> looking for something simple--hopefully a basic transfer switch that will >> quickly switch and drop out when grid power is restored. >> >> Would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions. >> >> regards, bill >> >> Bill Hennessy >> Berks Solar, LLC >> 371 Centennial Rd >> Mertztown, PA 19539 >> >> o 610 682 4300 >> c 484 560 4666 >> NABCEP certified installer >> PA contractor #44411 >> www.berkssolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Tue Nov 26 09:42:13 2019 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 08:42:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? In-Reply-To: References: <65824759-48c7-9053-58ab-e1b2020794bf@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <002001d5a467$b1659930$1430cb90$@solarcentex.com> Mike, Thanks for posting the note, but I find the wording to be less than fully clear. According to this note, the "The transformer-less series of inverters named Sunny Boy TL-US-12, Sunny Boy TL-US-22 and Sunny Tripower 12/15/20/24000TL-US-10 have a neutral connection that is required at installation for instrumentation, voltage and phase detection only." There is no mention of the -41 inverter also using the neutral for reference only, even though the note is "applicable to the following inverter types" and that shows the -41 Also, the table has these green x marks but no annotation of what the green x indicates. Can you clarify, please? From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Harry Mahon Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2019 11:02 AM To: RE-wrenches ; Jeff Clearwater Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? Lloyd - great find! I am attaching a updated note that specifically calls out current products but has less code detail. Best regards - Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html SMA America Solar Academy webinars: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html Choose "English" and "Online" as filters. This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Lloyd Hoffstatter Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 10:38 AM To: Jeff Clearwater >; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? Jeff, An oldie but attached tech note explains. May Need to upsize G / N for voltage drop depending on run. Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows 10 _____ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jeff Clearwater > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 12:00:37 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? Hey Folks, So does anyone have a reference I can show my AJH as to whether there is any current on the neutral of a single phase 240 VAC SB 7.7-40 inverter? 705.95(B) states: Neutral Conductor for Instrumentation, Voltage Detection or Phase Detection. A conductor used solely for instrumentation, voltage detection, or phase detection and connected to a single-phase or 3-phase utility-interactive inverter, shall be permitted to be sized at less than the ampacity of the other current-carrying conductors and shall be sized equal to or larger than the equipment grounding conductor. Be great not have to run 3/0 wire to my dedicated PV subpanel with 5 SB7.7s. At 200 Amps I could use 6 AWG according to 705.95. A huge savings in wire pull hassle not to mention copper. Are there any other practical considerations for those SBs to operate well if I were to go that low with the neutral? Anybody have any field experience with AJHs on this? Thanks, Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.png Type: image/png Size: 37150 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 428 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image010.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 428 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image011.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 717 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image012.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image013.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 480 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image014.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image015.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22585 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Tue Nov 26 16:12:45 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:12:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? In-Reply-To: <002001d5a467$b1659930$1430cb90$@solarcentex.com> References: <65824759-48c7-9053-58ab-e1b2020794bf@villagepowerdesign.com> <002001d5a467$b1659930$1430cb90$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <316a2168-cec2-20e7-87a9-195f424db758@villagepowerdesign.com> Hi Scot and Mike, Yes It is terribly worded - an AHJ could easily read it and come away=20 with the impression that only the TL and TriPower required the neutral=20 only for instrumentation and voltage and phase detection - implying the=20 rest used the neutral for current. And your right what do the x's even mean? I see the SMA author to be Chris Schwegler authored on July 19th, 2019.=20 Mike, can you send back to him for a re-write as this won't hold it's=20 water to AHJs going forward. Thanks! Jeff scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote on 11/26/19 6:42 AM: > Mike, > > Thanks for posting the note, but I find the wording to be less than=20 > fully clear. According to this note, the =E2=80=9CThe transformer-less se= ries=20 > of inverters named Sunny Boy TL-US-12, Sunny Boy TL-US-22 and Sunny=20 > Tripower 12/15/20/24000TL-US-10 have a neutral connection that is=20 > required at installation for instrumentation, voltage and phase=20 > detection only.=E2=80=9D > > There is no mention of the -41 inverter also using the neutral for=20 > reference only, even though the note is =E2=80=9Capplicable to the follow= ing=20 > inverter types=E2=80=9D and that shows the -41 > > Also, the table has these green x marks but no annotation of what the=20 > green x indicates. > > Can you clarify, please? > > simple signature block > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On=20 > Behalf Of *Harry Mahon > *Sent:* Thursday, November 14, 2019 11:02 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches ; Jeff Clearwater=20 > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on=20 > Neutral? > > Lloyd =E2=80=93 great find! > > I am attaching a updated note that specifically calls out current=20 > products but has less code detail. > > Best regards =E2=80=93 > > Mike > > SMA America > Michael Mahon > Technical Trainer, Solar Academy > 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 > > Rocklin, CA 95765 > > U.S.A. > Mobile: +1 916 918 9412_ > www.SMA-America.com _ > > __ > > Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html > > SMA America Solar Academy webinars: > > https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html > > Choose "English" and "Online" as filters. > > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg= =20 > http://sma-pla= net.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg=20 > =20 > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jp= g=20 > Linkedin Logo=20 > =20 > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg = > =20 > SMAAFORUM_ICON > > cid:image008.jpg at 01D54D07.DC1BFFF0=20 > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC=20 > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the=20 > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email=20 > (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you=20 > are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately=20 > and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and=20 > any attachments thereto. Thank you. > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf Of=20 > *Lloyd Hoffstatter > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 13, 2019 10:38 AM > *To:* Jeff Clearwater >; RE-wrenches=20 > > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on=20 > Neutral? > > Jeff, > > An oldie but attached tech note explains. > > May Need to upsize G / N =C2=A0for voltage drop depending on run=E2=80=A6 > > Best regards, > > Lloyd > > Lloyd Hoffstatter > > Sunstruck Consulting > > Sent from Mail=20 > =20 > for Windows 10 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jeff=20 > Clearwater > > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 13, 2019 12:00:37 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? > > Hey Folks, > > So does anyone have a reference I can show my AJH as to whether there=20 > is any current on the neutral of a single phase 240 VAC SB 7.7-40=20 > inverter? > > 705.95(B) states: > > *Neutral Conductor for Instrumentation, Voltage > Detection or Phase Detection. *A conductor used solely for > instrumentation, voltage detection, or phase detection and > connected to a single-phase or 3-phase utility-interactive > inverter, shall be permitted to be sized at less than the > ampacity of the other current-carrying conductors and shall > be sized equal to or larger than the equipment grounding > conductor. > > Be great not have to run 3/0 wire to my dedicated PV subpanel with 5=20 > SB7.7s.=C2=A0 At 200 Amps I could use 6 AWG according to 705.95.=C2=A0 A = huge=20 > savings in wire pull hassle not to mention copper. > > Are there any other practical considerations for those SBs to operate=20 > well if I were to go that low with the neutral? > > Anybody have any field experience with AJHs on this? > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin=20 > =20 > > www.villagepowerdesign.com=20 > > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 747 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 41392 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Nov 29 00:28:54 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 19:28:54 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] automatic transfer switches In-Reply-To: <1338841230.6351165.1574708792575@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1338841230.6351165.1574708792575.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1338841230.6351165.1574708792575@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Need to be careful here to use something that has the interrupt KVA rating required to prevent an arc in the event of an under load opening with the switch proper AIC rating 10,000 or more, last thing I think you want is to have that kind of liability on products that are not designed for that type of use. But thats just me. NABCEP PV Inspector California Solar contractor Jerry On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 8:52 PM Bill Hennessy wrote: > hi folks-- > > We're installing a grid-tied, battery backup system on a farm where the > service entrance is on a pole in the yard. At the single-phase, 240v, > service entrance, there are two main breaker subpanels--one going to the > house and one to the barn. The buildings are each about 100 feet away from > the pole in opposite directions. The PV/battery system is located in the > barn. When utility power is lost and the battery backup kicks in, we are > looking for a way to bypass the house subpanel at the pole so it won't > backfeed the grid. > > When the grid drops out, we need to tie the backup power coming from the > barn to the line going to the house. We're thinking an automatic transfer > switch installed at the pole will do the job, but the transfer switches > seem to have built in delays to work with starting a generator. The > switch does not have to be service entrance rated. > > It looks like the Asco 300 series has time delay adjustments, but it is > pricey and has a seven-week lead time. (Thank-you PG&E) > > The battery backup system will switch over in milliseconds and we were > hoping to find something similar for the transfer operation at the pole. We're > looking for something simple--hopefully a basic transfer switch that will > quickly switch and drop out when grid power is restored. > > Would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions. > > regards, bill > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Nov 29 10:15:11 2019 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 11:15:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] automatic transfer switches In-Reply-To: References: <1338841230.6351165.1574708792575.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1338841230.6351165.1574708792575@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If you are doing it on the AC side, a Generac transfer switch has the capability and is designed to do this. It's easy to rig an interface as I discussed privately with Bill. On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 1:29 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Need to be careful here to use something that has the interrupt KVA rating > required to prevent an arc in the event of an under load opening with the > switch proper AIC rating 10,000 or more, last thing I think you want is to > have that kind of liability on products that are not designed for that type > of use. But thats just me. > NABCEP PV Inspector > California Solar contractor > Jerry > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 8:52 PM Bill Hennessy wrote: > >> hi folks-- >> >> We're installing a grid-tied, battery backup system on a farm where the >> service entrance is on a pole in the yard. At the single-phase, 240v, >> service entrance, there are two main breaker subpanels--one going to the >> house and one to the barn. The buildings are each about 100 feet away from >> the pole in opposite directions. The PV/battery system is located in the >> barn. When utility power is lost and the battery backup kicks in, we are >> looking for a way to bypass the house subpanel at the pole so it won't >> backfeed the grid. >> >> When the grid drops out, we need to tie the backup power coming from the >> barn to the line going to the house. We're thinking an automatic transfer >> switch installed at the pole will do the job, but the transfer switches >> seem to have built in delays to work with starting a generator. The >> switch does not have to be service entrance rated. >> >> It looks like the Asco 300 series has time delay adjustments, but it is >> pricey and has a seven-week lead time. (Thank-you PG&E) >> >> The battery backup system will switch over in milliseconds and we were >> hoping to find something similar for the transfer operation at the pole. We're >> looking for something simple--hopefully a basic transfer switch that will >> quickly switch and drop out when grid power is restored. >> >> Would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions. >> >> regards, bill >> >> Bill Hennessy >> Berks Solar, LLC >> 371 Centennial Rd >> Mertztown, PA 19539 >> >> o 610 682 4300 >> c 484 560 4666 >> NABCEP certified installer >> PA contractor #44411 >> www.berkssolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Nov 29 16:06:06 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 21:06:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? In-Reply-To: <316a2168-cec2-20e7-87a9-195f424db758@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <65824759-48c7-9053-58ab-e1b2020794bf@villagepowerdesign.com> <002001d5a467$b1659930$1430cb90$@solarcentex.com> <316a2168-cec2-20e7-87a9-195f424db758@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Please see the third and fourth paragraph under 'Neutral Specifications' for the description of operation of the Sunny Boy US -40/-41 family. The third paragraph is correct for ALL Sunny Boy models, that is why no model numbers are called out. This paragraph states what you are looking for: that the neutral is NOT a current carrying conductor. The fourth paragraph calls out the Sunny Boy US-40/-41 specifically as it can work on 240 or 208 delta services where there is no neutral conductor available. This is not supported by any other inverter referenced by the document. And this is why the third paragraph is worded "WHEN connecting two ungrounded AC conductors and a single grounded conductor to the Sunny Boy.." - it covers the Sunny Boy US-40/-41 WHEN attaching to a grounded service. If there is any confusion by an inspector, SMA will be happy to clarify why the document is worded this way. The "X" is to indicate that the specific inverter will support attachment to the utility service listed. That could be explicitly called out, I will pass that feedback on. Best regards - Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html SMA America Solar Academy webinars: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html Choose "English" and "Online" as filters. [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg][http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D54D07.DC1BFFF0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: Jeff Clearwater Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2019 2:13 PM To: RE-wrenches ; scot.arey at solarcentex.com Cc: Harry Mahon Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? Hi Scot and Mike, Yes It is terribly worded - an AHJ could easily read it and come away with the impression that only the TL and TriPower required the neutral only for instrumentation and voltage and phase detection - implying the rest used the neutral for current. And your right what do the x's even mean? I see the SMA author to be Chris Schwegler authored on July 19th, 2019. Mike, can you send back to him for a re-write as this won't hold it's water to AHJs going forward. Thanks! Jeff scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote on 11/26/19 6:42 AM: Mike, Thanks for posting the note, but I find the wording to be less than fully clear. According to this note, the "The transformer-less series of inverters named Sunny Boy TL-US-12, Sunny Boy TL-US-22 and Sunny Tripower 12/15/20/24000TL-US-10 have a neutral connection that is required at installation for instrumentation, voltage and phase detection only." There is no mention of the -41 inverter also using the neutral for reference only, even though the note is "applicable to the following inverter types" and that shows the -41 Also, the table has these green x marks but no annotation of what the green x indicates. Can you clarify, please? [simple signature block] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Harry Mahon Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2019 11:02 AM To: RE-wrenches ; Jeff Clearwater Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? Lloyd - great find! I am attaching a updated note that specifically calls out current products but has less code detail. Best regards - Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html SMA America Solar Academy webinars: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html Choose "English" and "Online" as filters. [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg][http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D54D07.DC1BFFF0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Lloyd Hoffstatter Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 10:38 AM To: Jeff Clearwater >; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? Jeff, An oldie but attached tech note explains. May Need to upsize G / N for voltage drop depending on run... Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jeff Clearwater > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 12:00:37 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? Hey Folks, So does anyone have a reference I can show my AJH as to whether there is any current on the neutral of a single phase 240 VAC SB 7.7-40 inverter? 705.95(B) states: Neutral Conductor for Instrumentation, Voltage Detection or Phase Detection. A conductor used solely for instrumentation, voltage detection, or phase detection and connected to a single-phase or 3-phase utility-interactive inverter, shall be permitted to be sized at less than the ampacity of the other current-carrying conductors and shall be sized equal to or larger than the equipment grounding conductor. Be great not have to run 3/0 wire to my dedicated PV subpanel with 5 SB7.7s. At 200 Amps I could use 6 AWG according to 705.95. A huge savings in wire pull hassle not to mention copper. Are there any other practical considerations for those SBs to operate well if I were to go that low with the neutral? Anybody have any field experience with AJHs on this? Thanks, Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 428 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image015.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 41392 bytes Desc: image015.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image016.png Type: image/png Size: 19609 bytes Desc: image016.png URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Nov 29 18:21:26 2019 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 15:21:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? In-Reply-To: References: <65824759-48c7-9053-58ab-e1b2020794bf@villagepowerdesign.com> <002001d5a467$b1659930$1430cb90$@solarcentex.com> <316a2168-cec2-20e7-87a9-195f424db758@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Thanks for your reply Mike. - Yes we understand all of this but why make it hard for the AHJ to in the field? A little manufacturer support here would be helpful. If two of us wrenches had the same reaction to the wording might the AJH not also be confused? Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 29, 2019, at 1:06 PM, Harry Mahon wrote: > > Please see the third and fourth paragraph under ‘Neutral Specifications’ for the description of operation of the Sunny Boy US -40/-41 family. > > The third paragraph is correct for ALL Sunny Boy models, that is why no model numbers are called out. This paragraph states what you are looking for: that the neutral is NOT a current carrying conductor. > > The fourth paragraph calls out the Sunny Boy US-40/-41 specifically as it can work on 240 or 208 delta services where there is no neutral conductor available. This is not supported by any other inverter referenced by the document. And this is why the third paragraph is worded “WHEN connecting two ungrounded AC conductors and a single grounded conductor to the Sunny Boy..” – it covers the Sunny Boy US-40/-41 WHEN attaching to a grounded service. > > If there is any confusion by an inspector, SMA will be happy to clarify why the document is worded this way. > > The “X” is to indicate that the specific inverter will support attachment to the utility service listed. That could be explicitly called out, I will pass that feedback on. > > Best regards - > Mike > > > SMA America > Michael Mahon > Technical Trainer, Solar Academy > 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 > Rocklin, CA 95765 > U.S.A. > Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 > www.SMA-America.com > > Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html > > SMA America Solar Academy webinars: > https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html > Choose "English" and "Online" as filters. > > > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. > > From: Jeff Clearwater > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2019 2:13 PM > To: RE-wrenches ; scot.arey at solarcentex.com > Cc: Harry Mahon > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? > > Hi Scot and Mike, > > Yes It is terribly worded - an AHJ could easily read it and come away with the impression that only the TL and TriPower required the neutral only for instrumentation and voltage and phase detection - implying the rest used the neutral for current. > > And your right what do the x's even mean? > > I see the SMA author to be Chris Schwegler authored on July 19th, 2019. Mike, can you send back to him for a re-write as this won't hold it's water to AHJs going forward. > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > > scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote on 11/26/19 6:42 AM: > > > Mike, > > Thanks for posting the note, but I find the wording to be less than fully clear. According to this note, the “The transformer-less series of inverters named Sunny Boy TL-US-12, Sunny Boy TL-US-22 and Sunny Tripower 12/15/20/24000TL-US-10 have a neutral connection that is required at installation for instrumentation, voltage and phase detection only.” > > There is no mention of the -41 inverter also using the neutral for reference only, even though the note is “applicable to the following inverter types” and that shows the -41 > > Also, the table has these green x marks but no annotation of what the green x indicates. > > Can you clarify, please? > > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Harry Mahon > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2019 11:02 AM > To: RE-wrenches ; Jeff Clearwater > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? > > Lloyd – great find! > > I am attaching a updated note that specifically calls out current products but has less code detail. > > Best regards – > Mike > > SMA America > Michael Mahon > Technical Trainer, Solar Academy > 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 > Rocklin, CA 95765 > U.S.A. > Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 > www.SMA-America.com > > Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html > > SMA America Solar Academy webinars: > https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html > Choose "English" and "Online" as filters. > > > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Lloyd Hoffstatter > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 10:38 AM > To: Jeff Clearwater ; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? > > Jeff, > > An oldie but attached tech note explains. > May Need to upsize G / N for voltage drop depending on run… > > Best regards, > > Lloyd > > Lloyd Hoffstatter > Sunstruck Consulting > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jeff Clearwater > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 12:00:37 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? > > Hey Folks, > > So does anyone have a reference I can show my AJH as to whether there is any current on the neutral of a single phase 240 VAC SB 7.7-40 inverter? > > 705.95(B) states: > > Neutral Conductor for Instrumentation, Voltage > Detection or Phase Detection. A conductor used solely for > instrumentation, voltage detection, or phase detection and > connected to a single-phase or 3-phase utility-interactive > inverter, shall be permitted to be sized at less than the > ampacity of the other current-carrying conductors and shall > be sized equal to or larger than the equipment grounding > conductor. > > Be great not have to run 3/0 wire to my dedicated PV subpanel with 5 SB7.7s. At 200 Amps I could use 6 AWG according to 705.95. A huge savings in wire pull hassle not to mention copper. > > Are there any other practical considerations for those SBs to operate well if I were to go that low with the neutral? > > Anybody have any field experience with AJHs on this? > > Thanks, > > Jeff > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > linkedin > www.villagepowerdesign.com > cell - 413-559-9763 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Dec 2 09:28:29 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 07:28:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] non-sensor based tracker controller Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Does anyone know of a non-sensor based tracker controller that can work with a variety of tracker motors? We don't do trackers much but we have a WattSun DuraTrak controller that has never worked well, we've tried all sorts of tweaks. Its a tougher location that a lot because there are high snowy peaks that confuse the tracker I guess. It seems like something would be out there that would just use the sun position equation instead of sensors that can be confused. Thanks for your input -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Mon Dec 2 09:49:51 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:49:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] non-sensor based tracker controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Mac, AER (All Earth Renewables) trackers are a dual axis tracker that uses GPS to follow the sun. We've had good luck with them. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 9:28 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Does anyone know of a non-sensor based tracker controller that can work > with a variety of tracker motors? > > We don't do trackers much but we have a WattSun DuraTrak controller that > has never worked well, we've tried all sorts of tweaks. Its a tougher > location that a lot because there are high snowy peaks that confuse the > tracker I guess. > > It seems like something would be out there that would just use the sun > position equation instead of sensors that can be confused. > > Thanks for your input > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon Dec 2 11:15:13 2019 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 08:15:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] non-sensor based tracker controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13017f20-02eb-7561-11a4-ca6ac05d45a2@berkeleysolar.com> Most every industrial grade tracker run off of location and time, calculates the required array angle. The core code for this is open source out of NREL (your tax dollars at work). Still over my pay grade to actually integrate this into a home made tracker. On 12/2/2019 6:28 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > Does anyone know of a non-sensor based tracker controller that can > work with a variety of tracker motors? > > We don't do trackers much but we have a WattSun DuraTrak controller > that has never worked well, we've tried all sorts of tweaks.  Its a > tougher location that a lot because there are high snowy peaks that > confuse the tracker I guess. > > It seems like something would be out there that would just use the sun > position equation instead of sensors that can be confused. > > Thanks for your input > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Dec 2 11:40:45 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 08:40:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] non-sensor based tracker controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434bdbf9ff429092af2e147e58829517@127.0.0.1> Mac, which mode is being confused elevation or azimuth. What have you replaced and what does Jeff Grulic say of Wattsun? The photo sensor I like is the single axis. There really is little need to use the dual axis for offgrid, in my opinion. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 07:28:29 -0700, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Wrenches, Does anyone know of a non-sensor based tracker controller that can work with a variety of tracker motors? We don't do trackers much but we have a WattSun DuraTrak controller that has never worked well, we've tried all sorts of tweaks. Its a tougher location that a lot because there are high snowy peaks that confuse the tracker I guess. It seems like something would be out there that would just use the sun position equation instead of sensors that can be confused. Thanks for your input -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Dec 2 13:32:39 2019 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:32:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] non-sensor based tracker controller In-Reply-To: <434bdbf9ff429092af2e147e58829517@127.0.0.1> References: <434bdbf9ff429092af2e147e58829517@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hi, It seems to get confused on the azimuth or at least that's what's most pronounced. I've looked at All Earth but it's a full assembly, not really a retrofit using someone else's motors. I have worked with Kyle at Array Technologies, and he's been great, but it's still having issues. I think the big thing is that once it's lost the sun for a while, it's difficult for it to recover, even when the sun comes out. There is a ghost mode that it's supposed to rotate the azimuth at a fixed rate when the sensor is below a certain threshold, but we just don't seem to be able to get it correct. It's tough to troubleshoot it too. Thanks On Mon, Dec 2, 2019, 9:40 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Mac, which mode is being confused elevation or azimuth. What have you > replaced and what does Jeff Grulic say of Wattsun? > > The photo sensor I like is the single axis. There really is little need to > use the dual axis for offgrid, in my opinion. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 07:28:29 -0700, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > Does anyone know of a non-sensor based tracker controller that can work > with a variety of tracker motors? > > We don't do trackers much but we have a WattSun DuraTrak controller that > has never worked well, we've tried all sorts of tweaks. Its a tougher > location that a lot because there are high snowy peaks that confuse the > tracker I guess. > > It seems like something would be out there that would just use the sun > position equation instead of sensors that can be confused. > > Thanks for your input > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Dec 2 14:04:57 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 11:04:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] non-sensor based tracker controller In-Reply-To: References: <434bdbf9ff429092af2e147e58829517@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <739bebf343a30dfde16f547dbbcb17fc@127.0.0.1> Hi :) What I do for many of mine to eliminate the possible really being off in winter is to remove the bolts and turn the array to the morning setting you want. In winter you are rotating maybe 75 degrees from the morning position. I set the elevation to shed snow and forget it until early spring. This way the electronics are not searching as much and always go home to the morning position. It could be 75 degrees off on yours in the AM if you are letting it run that summer go to east stop. I do not have this problem here on top of a mountain. You may have to replace the controller/sensor with a single axis one to eliminate this if it is not working well in my first paragraph. Kyle and Jeff are great, what are they saying? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:32:39 -0700, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi, It seems to get confused on the azimuth or at least that's what's most pronounced. I've looked at All Earth but it's a full assembly, not really a retrofit using someone else's motors. I have worked with Kyle at Array Technologies, and he's been great, but it's still having issues. I think the big thing is that once it's lost the sun for a while, it's difficult for it to recover, even when the sun comes out. There is a ghost mode that it's supposed to rotate the azimuth at a fixed rate when the sensor is below a certain threshold, but we just don't seem to be able to get it correct. It's tough to troubleshoot it too. Thanks On Mon, Dec 2, 2019, 9:40 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Mac, which mode is being confused elevation or azimuth. What have you replaced and what does Jeff Grulic say of Wattsun? The photo sensor I like is the single axis. There really is little need to use the dual axis for offgrid, in my opinion. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [5] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 07:28:29 -0700, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Wrenches, Does anyone know of a non-sensor based tracker controller that can work with a variety of tracker motors? We don't do trackers much but we have a WattSun DuraTrak controller that has never worked well, we've tried all sorts of tweaks. Its a tougher location that a lot because there are high snowy peaks that confuse the tracker I guess. It seems like something would be out there that would just use the sun position equation instead of sensors that can be confused. Thanks for your input -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [6] mailto:maclewis1 at gmail.com [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Dec 2 15:56:48 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 15:56:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider support? Message-ID: <000801d5a953$0570dcc0$10529640$@glbcc.com> First time in about a year that I have had to use Schneider support - I find that now the special number has no one answering it!? I created a case online 5 days ago and received receipt of a case number - do I now have to wait for my number to come up and for them to call me? Anyone else experiencing this, or did I miss something? I am registered with Schneider as an installer. I have an off-grid customer I talked into using their equipment partially based on feedback I got here about the new Gateway.so far I am unimpressed with internet connectivity and the Insight 2 portal. He is now snowed in for the winter here and access is only by snowmobile. Two identical systems and I need to get answers ASAP! Thanks for any feedback. Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Mon Dec 2 16:03:34 2019 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 21:03:34 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider support? In-Reply-To: <000801d5a953$0570dcc0$10529640$@glbcc.com> References: <000801d5a953$0570dcc0$10529640$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Glenn, Could you please send me the case number? Sandra Herrera From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019 4:57 PM To: RE-Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider support? [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ First time in about a year that I have had to use Schneider support - I find that now the special number has no one answering it!? I created a case online 5 days ago and received receipt of a case number - do I now have to wait for my number to come up and for them to call me? Anyone else experiencing this, or did I miss something? I am registered with Schneider as an installer... I have an off-grid customer I talked into using their equipment partially based on feedback I got here about the new Gateway...so far I am unimpressed with internet connectivity and the Insight 2 portal... He is now snowed in for the winter here and access is only by snowmobile. Two identical systems and I need to get answers ASAP! Thanks for any feedback. Glenn ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Dec 2 16:48:15 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 13:48:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Schneider_support=3F?= In-Reply-To: <000801d5a953$0570dcc0$10529640$@glbcc.com> References: <000801d5a953$0570dcc0$10529640$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: I use the mobile number that was given to me as an installer and press the correct option. If you find out something else please tell us Glen or Sandra. THX. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 15:56:48 -0500, "Glenn Burt" wrote: First time in about a year that I have had to use Schneider support - I find that now the special number has no one answering it!? I created a case online 5 days ago and received receipt of a case number - do I now have to wait for my number to come up and for them to call me? Anyone else experiencing this, or did I miss something? I am registered with Schneider as an installer… I have an off-grid customer I talked into using their equipment partially based on feedback I got here about the new Gateway…so far I am unimpressed with internet connectivity and the Insight 2 portal… He is now snowed in for the winter here and access is only by snowmobile. Two identical systems and I need to get answers ASAP! Thanks for any feedback. Glenn -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Dec 2 16:56:23 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 13:56:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: non-sensor based tracker controller Message-ID: <871967298cc56bfecd8d275358c77aea@127.0.0.1> Hi Todd, There are reasons like parts availability and sourcing modules from an outside vendor. Not as easy to keep a production line running (building pcbs, soldering, wiring, sensors, etc) for a product that is not a huge seller. They still have very good support and I think their HZLA is hard to beat. No ladders or weirdness on assembly. Not much of a fan for using gps to do this offgrid either.... Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:37:58 -0800 (PST), toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: what i do not understand is why they discontinued manufacturing and servicing the old sensor based array tech units? i have four that are fully functional still. all i do is grease them once a year, but if/when there is a failure i have no repair options. todd On Monday, December 2, 2019 11:04am, "Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar" said: Hi :) What I do for many of mine to eliminate the possible really being off in winter is to remove the bolts and turn the array to the morning setting you want. In winter you are rotating maybe 75 degrees from the morning position. I set the elevation to shed snow and forget it until early spring. This way the electronics are not searching as much and always go home to the morning position. It could be 75 degrees off on yours in the AM if you are letting it run that summer go to east stop. I do not have this problem here on top of a mountain. You may have to replace the controller/sensor with a single axis one to eliminate this if it is not working well in my first paragraph. Kyle and Jeff are great, what are they saying? DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT 209 813 0060 On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:32:39 -0700, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi, It seems to get confused on the azimuth or at least that's what's most pronounced. I've looked at All Earth but it's a full assembly, not really a retrofit using someone else's motors. I have worked with Kyle at Array Technologies, and he's been great, but it's still having issues. I think the big thing is that once it's lost the sun for a while, it's difficult for it to recover, even when the sun comes out. There is a ghost mode that it's supposed to rotate the azimuth at a fixed rate when the sensor is below a certain threshold, but we just don't seem to be able to get it correct. It's tough to troubleshoot it too. Thanks On Mon, Dec 2, 2019, 9:40 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Mac, which mode is being confused elevation or azimuth. What have you replaced and what does Jeff Grulic say of Wattsun? The photo sensor I like is the single axis. There really is little need to use the dual axis for offgrid, in my opinion. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT 209 813 0060 On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 07:28:29 -0700, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Wrenches, Does anyone know of a non-sensor based tracker controller that can work with a variety of tracker motors? We don't do trackers much but we have a WattSun DuraTrak controller that has never worked well, we've tried all sorts of tweaks. Its a tougher location that a lot because there are high snowy peaks that confuse the tracker I guess. It seems like something would be out there that would just use the sun position equation instead of sensors that can be confused. Thanks for your input -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] List rules font-size: medium;"> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -- -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [10] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [11] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] mailto:maclewis1 at gmail.com [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [11] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Dec 2 17:17:51 2019 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:17:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider support? In-Reply-To: References: <000801d5a953$0570dcc0$10529640$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <002c01d5a95e$57bb4b90$0731e2b0$@glbcc.com> Hi Dave, I too have received a special telephone number, but when I call it, and navigate to the off-grid support option, I am told that registered installers can fill out a request online and Schneider will contact me… There is no longer a menu to choose the installer support option on the phone and the number that I used to use (menu option number) does not work either… Sandra has reached out to me for more information, so perhaps I will be able to pass along a bit more later. -Glenn From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Monday, December 02, 2019 4:48 PM To: glenn.burt at glbcc.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider support? I use the mobile number that was given to me as an installer and press the correct option. If you find out something else please tell us Glen or Sandra. THX. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 15:56:48 -0500, "Glenn Burt" > wrote: First time in about a year that I have had to use Schneider support – I find that now the special number has no one answering it!? I created a case online 5 days ago and received receipt of a case number – do I now have to wait for my number to come up and for them to call me? Anyone else experiencing this, or did I miss something? I am registered with Schneider as an installer… I have an off-grid customer I talked into using their equipment partially based on feedback I got here about the new Gateway…so far I am unimpressed with internet connectivity and the Insight 2 portal… He is now snowed in for the winter here and access is only by snowmobile. Two identical systems and I need to get answers ASAP! Thanks for any feedback. Glenn -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Dec 2 18:21:25 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 15:21:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Schneider_support=3F?= In-Reply-To: <002c01d5a95e$57bb4b90$0731e2b0$@glbcc.com> References: <000801d5a953$0570dcc0$10529640$@glbcc.com> <002c01d5a95e$57bb4b90$0731e2b0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <9e420fceb9db408fcdbc55575fbf0c5f@127.0.0.1> Hi Glen, I just called it on my mobile and spoke with Nicole at Schneider. Working for me! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:17:51 -0500, "Glenn Burt" wrote: Hi Dave, I too have received a special telephone number, but when I call it, and navigate to the off-grid support option, I am told that registered installers can fill out a request online and Schneider will contact me... There is no longer a menu to choose the installer support option on the phone and the number that I used to use (menu option number) does not work either... Sandra has reached out to me for more information, so perhaps I will be able to pass along a bit more later. -Glenn FROM: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar SENT: Monday, December 02, 2019 4:48 PM TO: glenn.burt at glbcc.com; RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider support? I use the mobile number that was given to me as an installer and press the correct option. If you find out something else please tell us Glen or Sandra. THX. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT 209 813 0060 On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 15:56:48 -0500, "Glenn Burt" wrote: First time in about a year that I have had to use Schneider support - I find that now the special number has no one answering it!? I created a case online 5 days ago and received receipt of a case number - do I now have to wait for my number to come up and for them to call me? Anyone else experiencing this, or did I miss something? I am registered with Schneider as an installer... I have an off-grid customer I talked into using their equipment partially based on feedback I got here about the new Gateway...so far I am unimpressed with internet connectivity and the Insight 2 portal... He is now snowed in for the winter here and access is only by snowmobile. Two identical systems and I need to get answers ASAP! Thanks for any feedback. Glenn -- -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:glenn.burt at glbcc.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Dec 2 19:50:20 2019 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:50:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tracker .02 Message-ID: <007001d5a973$a4cc4000$ee64c000$@solarwork.com> I have 2 Array Tech trackers at my house in a narrow N-S canyon. >From comparisons I have done with a fixed tilt VS Wattsun arrays I determined repeatedly that a 32% yearly average gain was achieved, esp. in winter months. [6 – 250 watt modules on each] That said – with today’s cost of modules, more modules are less expensive if you have the footprint to set them. I did not have the room for ground or roof mount or for 3 poles and 2 pole mounted trackers fit the bill. Another issue that the trackers resolved, was our county has reflection ordinances & the trackers alleviated this issue! Single axis VS dual axis? I have dual axis trackers and to be able to park the tracker at the end of the day in full vertical mode reduces the snow pile up overnight in the winter. In the summer when we get a lot of wind gusts at night being able to park the tracker at night in flat [tabletop] mode is desirable. Location, location, location; Trackers work in snow country probably better than non-snow country due to their additional benefits. I have installed the large Wattsun trackers as locked in single axis to reduce the potential damage from wind on some sites. The new Wattsun controllers initially were not the easiest item to program but they have worked flawlessly, I give them 2 thumbs up. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Monday, December 02, 2019 9:41 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] non-sensor based tracker controller Mac, which mode is being confused elevation or azimuth. What have you replaced and what does Jeff Grulic say of Wattsun? The photo sensor I like is the single axis. There really is little need to use the dual axis for offgrid, in my opinion. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 07:28:29 -0700, Mac Lewis > wrote: Hi Wrenches, Does anyone know of a non-sensor based tracker controller that can work with a variety of tracker motors? We don't do trackers much but we have a WattSun DuraTrak controller that has never worked well, we've tried all sorts of tweaks. Its a tougher location that a lot because there are high snowy peaks that confuse the tracker I guess. It seems like something would be out there that would just use the sun position equation instead of sensors that can be confused. Thanks for your input -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evolvedsolar at gmail.com Tue Dec 3 11:42:22 2019 From: evolvedsolar at gmail.com (Al Frishman) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 11:42:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2014 690.12 Rapid Shutdown - for multiple arrays Message-ID: <373775BD-16E2-46CA-88A5-CF69AF5C56A9@gmail.com> Hey Wrenchers, What is your interpretaion regarding NEC 2014 690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings when dealing with multiple arrays separated by 4 ft paths on flat roofs. For example can one inverter located at the East end of an array be connected to solar panels on both the adjacent array to the inverter and a 2nd or even 3rd array located to the West separated by 4 ft paths? I appreciate your feedback. Al Frishman EvolvedSolar (917) 699-6641 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Tue Dec 3 13:46:38 2019 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 18:46:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2014 690.12 Rapid Shutdown - for multiple arrays In-Reply-To: <373775BD-16E2-46CA-88A5-CF69AF5C56A9@gmail.com> References: <373775BD-16E2-46CA-88A5-CF69AF5C56A9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Al, You may find this article and the one referenced to be helpful https://www.purepower.com/blog/nec-690-12-rapid-shutdown-length Best regards, Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Al Frishman Sent: Tuesday, December 3, 2019 11:42 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2014 690.12 Rapid Shutdown - for multiple arrays Hey Wrenchers, What is your interpretaion regarding NEC 2014 690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings when dealing with multiple arrays separated by 4 ft paths on flat roofs. For example can one inverter located at the East end of an array be connected to solar panels on both the adjacent array to the inverter and a 2nd or even 3rd array located to the West separated by 4 ft paths? I appreciate your feedback. Al Frishman EvolvedSolar (917) 699-6641 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Dec 3 14:33:30 2019 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 14:33:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider support? In-Reply-To: <000801d5a953$0570dcc0$10529640$@glbcc.com> References: <000801d5a953$0570dcc0$10529640$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Hi Glen, My experience with Schneider Support over the last several months has been very variable in terms of how accessible they are. There have been times when I ring right through, and others when I'm on hold for more than an hour (I think my personal record was a total of 2.5 hours in one day due to my call being dropped after 70 minutes of waiting. I have tried the online request for support route several times and I can't remember if I've ever received a call or email back from that, other than once when I got a call back maybe 5 days after I submitted my request - clearly that is not a very functional system. I also think it would be quite helpful if there was a way to reference a case number on line to see what the current status of a support issue was if it was something that I was waiting for a more information about or a higher tier response from, but as far as I know that is not available to us. When I do get through, I mostly feel like I've gotten decent to really good support, although my impression is that there is a fair amount of siloing between the various design, engineering, and support departments which has caused frustration for me in getting clear answers or solutions to issues and problems. As far as the gateway, I am happy with the interface and functionality when onsite, but the Insight 2 portal seems extremely limited and for the most part useless from an installer perspective, mostly geared toward making things easy to read for end users, but not supplying some real basic information and functionality needed to even keep track of a site, no less troubleshoot it offsite. So far it is a big disappointment since I had the impression that it was promised to give total transparency and programability into a remote site. I can only hope that Schneider is doing due diligence in developing those capabilities before releasing them on us - perhaps wishful thinking... Howie On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 3:57 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > First time in about a year that I have had to use Schneider support – I > find that now the special number has no one answering it!? > > I created a case online 5 days ago and received receipt of a case number – > do I now have to wait for my number to come up and for them to call me? > > Anyone else experiencing this, or did I miss something? > > I am registered with Schneider as an installer… > > > > I have an off-grid customer I talked into using their equipment partially > based on feedback I got here about the new Gateway…so far I am unimpressed > with internet connectivity and the Insight 2 portal… He is now snowed in > for the winter here and access is only by snowmobile. Two identical systems > and I need to get answers ASAP! > > > > Thanks for any feedback. > > > > Glenn > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Dec 3 15:23:39 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 12:23:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Schneider_support=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <000801d5a953$0570dcc0$10529640$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <67d65c7bc792ce51321bb5dbac343177@127.0.0.1> I would hope that you guys are feeding this back. I tell them what you are saying but better from you. I agree that Insight 2 is missing the most important screen that gateway and combox have and that is the battery summary screen. A 24 hour picture of the system that has months of data by the day. Disagree about Insight2. It does allow me to remote configure easily BTW. I was told that new gateway firmware would be out in Q4. Getting pretty near the end of that promise. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/conext-gateway-conext-insight-2-product-feedback/ [1] Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [3] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 14:33:30 -0500, Howie Michaelson wrote: Hi Glen, My experience with Schneider Support over the last several months has been very variable in terms of how accessible they are. There have been times when I ring right through, and others when I'm on hold for more than an hour (I think my personal record was a total of 2.5 hours in one day due to my call being dropped after 70 minutes of waiting. I have tried the online request for support route several times and I can't remember if I've ever received a call or email back from that, other than once when I got a call back maybe 5 days after I submitted my request - clearly that is not a very functional system. I also think it would be quite helpful if there was a way to reference a case number on line to see what the current status of a support issue was if it was something that I was waiting for a more information about or a higher tier response from, but as far as I know that is not available to us. When I do get through, I mostly feel like I've gotten decent to really good support, although my impression is that there is a fair amount of siloing between the various design, engineering, and support departments which has caused frustration for me in getting clear answers or solutions to issues and problems. As far as the gateway, I am happy with the interface and functionality when onsite, but the Insight 2 portal seems extremely limited and for the most part useless from an installer perspective, mostly geared toward making things easy to read for end users, but not supplying some real basic information and functionality needed to even keep track of a site, no less troubleshoot it offsite. So far it is a big disappointment since I had the impression that it was promised to give total transparency and programability into a remote site. I can only hope that Schneider is doing due diligence in developing those capabilities before releasing them on us - perhaps wishful thinking... Howie On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 3:57 PM Glenn Burt wrote: First time in about a year that I have had to use Schneider support - I find that now the special number has no one answering it!? I created a case online 5 days ago and received receipt of a case number - do I now have to wait for my number to come up and for them to call me? Anyone else experiencing this, or did I miss something? I am registered with Schneider as an installer... I have an off-grid customer I talked into using their equipment partially based on feedback I got here about the new Gateway...so far I am unimpressed with internet connectivity and the Insight 2 portal... He is now snowed in for the winter here and access is only by snowmobile. Two identical systems and I need to get answers ASAP! Thanks for any feedback. Glenn _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] -- Links: ------ [1] https://solar.schneider-electric.com/conext-gateway-conext-insight-2-product-feedback/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] mailto:glenn.burt at glbcc.com [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Dec 3 21:10:47 2019 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 18:10:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA connection box access In-Reply-To: <67d65c7bc792ce51321bb5dbac343177@127.0.0.1> References: <000801d5a953$0570dcc0$10529640$@glbcc.com> <67d65c7bc792ce51321bb5dbac343177@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <39c315cf-e0f5-fb7c-970b-1520f7457fca@psln.com> Wrenchers,             This particular install requires 6 Gauge for the AC output from a few SB7.7......-41 inverters (for voltage drop). Pretty tight for the 3/4" knock-outs in that inverter.  Any harm in using a step-drill to open it up to a 1" KO?  Any experiences with this?  I'm trying to avoid a J-box with a transition to 8 Gauge with 4-14 Polaris connectors. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FRS_working_logo, 50%.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 8424 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Dec 3 21:09:05 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 18:09:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA connection box access In-Reply-To: <39c315cf-e0f5-fb7c-970b-1520f7457fca@psln.com> References: <000801d5a953$0570dcc0$10529640$@glbcc.com> <67d65c7bc792ce51321bb5dbac343177@127.0.0.1> <39c315cf-e0f5-fb7c-970b-1520f7457fca@psln.com> Message-ID: <9a55ad6ca39f1d4fed349445a940b4f2@mail.gmail.com> Bill: Increasing KO size voids warranty. In the past, SMA might repair a dead modified inverter, if possible, but would not exchange one. The logistical difference is, you have to send your modified defective inverter in and wait instead of receiving a refurbished replacement promptly. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *frenergy *Sent:* Tuesday, December 3, 2019 6:11 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SMA connection box access Wrenchers, This particular install requires 6 Gauge for the AC output from a few SB7.7......-41 inverters (for voltage drop). Pretty tight for the 3/4" knock-outs in that inverter. Any harm in using a step-drill to open it up to a 1" KO? Any experiences with this? I'm trying to avoid a J-box with a transition to 8 Gauge with 4-14 Polaris connectors. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 8424 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Dec 3 22:15:45 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 19:15:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA connection box access In-Reply-To: <39c315cf-e0f5-fb7c-970b-1520f7457fca@psln.com> References: <000801d5a953$0570dcc0$10529640$@glbcc.com> <67d65c7bc792ce51321bb5dbac343177@127.0.0.1> <39c315cf-e0f5-fb7c-970b-1520f7457fca@psln.com> Message-ID: Wrenches It has always been a "no no" to modify any inverter due to warranty concerns but with the -41 if there is an issue it's only the top half of the inverter now to swap so that's a plus but l would get it in writing first anyway to be safe Jerry On Tue, Dec 3, 2019, 6:05 PM frenergy wrote: > Wrenchers, > > This particular install requires 6 Gauge for the AC output > from a few SB7.7......-41 inverters (for voltage drop). Pretty tight for > the 3/4" knock-outs in that inverter. Any harm in using a step-drill to > open it up to a 1" KO? Any experiences with this? I'm trying to avoid a > J-box with a transition to 8 Gauge with 4-14 Polaris connectors. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FRS_working_logo, 50%.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 8424 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Dec 4 08:21:58 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 08:21:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA connection box access In-Reply-To: References: <000801d5a953$0570dcc0$10529640$@glbcc.com> <67d65c7bc792ce51321bb5dbac343177@127.0.0.1> <39c315cf-e0f5-fb7c-970b-1520f7457fca@psln.com> Message-ID: You might find the Arctic flex or similar product from cobra w/ adequate ampacity rating using your #8 awg/ 85 A @30c www.polarwire.com  > On Dec 3, 2019, at 10:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > It has always been a "no no" to modify any inverter due to warranty concerns but with the -41 if there is an issue it's only the top half of the inverter now to swap so that's a plus but l would get it in writing first anyway to be safe > Jerry > > On Tue, Dec 3, 2019, 6:05 PM frenergy > wrote: > Wrenchers, > > This particular install requires 6 Gauge for the AC output from a few SB7.7......-41 inverters (for voltage drop). Pretty tight for the 3/4" knock-outs in that inverter. Any harm in using a step-drill to open it up to a 1" KO? Any experiences with this? I'm trying to avoid a J-box with a transition to 8 Gauge with 4-14 Polaris connectors. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Dec 4 10:11:51 2019 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 10:11:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA connection box access In-Reply-To: <39c315cf-e0f5-fb7c-970b-1520f7457fca@psln.com> References: <000801d5a953$0570dcc0$10529640$@glbcc.com> <67d65c7bc792ce51321bb5dbac343177@127.0.0.1> <39c315cf-e0f5-fb7c-970b-1520f7457fca@psln.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure what you're using for raceway, but if using PVC you could come out of the inverter with 3/4 and immediately transition to 1" with a 1"-3/4" PVC adapter. You can get (4) #6 THWN-2 in a 3/4" PVC conduit at 40% fill. https://www.grainger.com/product/CANTEX-1-x-3-4-PVC-Reducer-4FYK1 Regardless of the conduit type, you could also just pass through a j-box rather than splicing inside. The 3/4" KO should still be big enough for your #6 inverter output circuit. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 9:05 PM frenergy wrote: > Wrenchers, > > This particular install requires 6 Gauge for the AC output > from a few SB7.7......-41 inverters (for voltage drop). Pretty tight for > the 3/4" knock-outs in that inverter. Any harm in using a step-drill to > open it up to a 1" KO? Any experiences with this? I'm trying to avoid a > J-box with a transition to 8 Gauge with 4-14 Polaris connectors. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FRS_working_logo, 50%.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 8424 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Wed Dec 4 11:18:07 2019 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 16:18:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA connection box access In-Reply-To: References: <000801d5a953$0570dcc0$10529640$@glbcc.com> <67d65c7bc792ce51321bb5dbac343177@127.0.0.1> <39c315cf-e0f5-fb7c-970b-1520f7457fca@psln.com> Message-ID: <318500250.3251636.1575476287564@mail.yahoo.com> Bill--We enlarge knockouts often. The biggest watch out is if the knock out is close to the enclosure wall, it can be a hassle trying to fit the larger lock nut.It's a little harder trying to drill an offset hole with a step bit, but if there's room, we'll just make a new hole for the larger conduit to fit. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com On Wednesday, December 4, 2019, 10:12:08 AM EST, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I'm not sure what you're using for raceway, but if using PVC you could come out of the inverter with 3/4 and immediately transition to 1" with a 1"-3/4" PVC adapter. You can get (4) #6 THWN-2 in a 3/4" PVC conduit at 40% fill. https://www.grainger.com/product/CANTEX-1-x-3-4-PVC-Reducer-4FYK1 Regardless of the conduit type, you could also just pass through a j-box rather than splicing inside. The 3/4" KO should still be big enough for your #6 inverter output circuit. Jason Szumlanski | | | On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 9:05 PM frenergy wrote: Wrenchers,             This particular install requires 6 Gauge for the AC output from a few SB7.7......-41 inverters (for voltage drop). Pretty tight for the 3/4" knock-outs in that inverter.  Any harm in using a step-drill to open it up to a 1" KO?  Any experiences with this?  I'm trying to avoid a J-box with a transition to 8 Gauge with 4-14 Polaris connectors. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FRS_working_logo, 50%.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 8424 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Dec 4 08:18:49 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 08:18:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider support? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2119e24c3ca2a4e8969d37a33b8b032d08dbc934@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> My quandary is "who is supposed to pay for this time?"  How many free hours/ days are we supposed to spend? What is a reasonable amount for a client to pay? ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "Glenn Burt" , "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 14:33:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider support? Hi Glen, My experience with Schneider Support over the last several months has been very variable in terms of how accessible they are.  There have been times when I ring right through, and others when I'm on hold for more than an hour (I think my personal record was a total of 2.5 hours in one day due to my call being dropped after 70 minutes of waiting. I have tried the online request for support route several times and I can't remember if I've ever received a call or email back from that, other than once when I got a call back maybe 5 days after I submitted my request - clearly that is not a very functional system.  I also think it would be quite helpful if there was a way to reference a case number on line to see what the current status of a support issue was if it was something that I was waiting for a more information about or a higher tier response from, but as far as I know that is not available to us.  When I do get through, I mostly feel like I've gotten decent to really good support, although my impression is that there is a fair amount of siloing between the various design, engineering, and support departments which has caused frustration for me in getting clear answers or solutions to issues and problems. As far as the gateway, I am happy with the interface and functionality when onsite, but the Insight 2 portal seems extremely limited and for the most part useless from an installer perspective, mostly geared toward making things easy to read for end users, but not supplying some real basic information and functionality needed to even keep track of a site, no less troubleshoot it offsite.  So far it is a big disappointment since I had the impression that it was promised to give total transparency and programability into a remote site.  I can only hope that Schneider is doing due diligence in developing those capabilities before releasing them on us - perhaps wishful thinking... Howie On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 3:57 PM Glenn Burt wrote: First time in about a year that I have had to use Schneider support – I find that now the special number has no one answering it!? I created a case online 5 days ago and received receipt of a case number – do I now have to wait for my number to come up and for them to call me? Anyone else experiencing this, or did I miss something? I am registered with Schneider as an installer…   I have an off-grid customer I talked into using their equipment partially based on feedback I got here about the new Gateway…so far I am unimpressed with internet connectivity and the Insight 2 portal… He is now snowed in for the winter here and access is only by snowmobile. Two identical systems and I need to get answers ASAP!   Thanks for any feedback.   Glenn   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [2] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [3] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [4] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [5] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [6] Links: ------ [1] mailto:glenn.burt at glbcc.com [2] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [3] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [5] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Dec 4 12:09:46 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 09:09:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Schneider_support=3F?= In-Reply-To: <2119e24c3ca2a4e8969d37a33b8b032d08dbc934@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <2119e24c3ca2a4e8969d37a33b8b032d08dbc934@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <97dc72f6989f92a03c580b974158aac4@127.0.0.1> I tell my offgrid clients this is new and you need to have knowledge to operate a Schneider or Outback system manually. They both have control panels that can do this without being in the "cloud" The inverters and chargers are very reliable and the client needs to take some responsibility and be told that at the start. If I can't support them by text or email I send them to XYZ company. Kind of like batteries and gensets offgrid, expendable. I personally do not want to be involved with either company except for warranty or field testing. After that the client has to think about spares and just ask me questions. The last thing I want is elderly people living offgrid. I send them to XYZ also. It may be harsh. I think we both need our free time and to enjoy life! Maybe you should charge a support fee as that will get the client to understand that there is no "free shipping" on this one. You have to stay in business and not be so concerned with billing them. I guess it is different for all of us. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 04 Dec 2019 08:18:49 -0500, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: My quandary is "who is supposed to pay for this time?" How many free hours/ days are we supposed to spend? What is a reasonable amount for a client to pay? ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "Glenn Burt" , "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 14:33:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider support? Hi Glen, My experience with Schneider Support over the last several months has been very variable in terms of how accessible they are. There have been times when I ring right through, and others when I'm on hold for more than an hour (I think my personal record was a total of 2.5 hours in one day due to my call being dropped after 70 minutes of waiting. I have tried the online request for support route several times and I can't remember if I've ever received a call or email back from that, other than once when I got a call back maybe 5 days after I submitted my request - clearly that is not a very functional system. I also think it would be quite helpful if there was a way to reference a case number on line to see what the current status of a support issue was if it was something that I was waiting for a more information about or a higher tier response from, but as far as I know that is not available to us. When I do get through, I mostly feel like I've gotten decent to really good support, although my impression is that there is a fair amount of siloing between the various design, engineering, and support departments which has caused frustration for me in getting clear answers or solutions to issues and problems. As far as the gateway, I am happy with the interface and functionality when onsite, but the Insight 2 portal seems extremely limited and for the most part useless from an installer perspective, mostly geared toward making things easy to read for end users, but not supplying some real basic information and functionality needed to even keep track of a site, no less troubleshoot it offsite. So far it is a big disappointment since I had the impression that it was promised to give total transparency and programability into a remote site. I can only hope that Schneider is doing due diligence in developing those capabilities before releasing them on us - perhaps wishful thinking... Howie On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 3:57 PM Glenn Burt wrote: First time in about a year that I have had to use Schneider support - I find that now the special number has no one answering it!? I created a case online 5 days ago and received receipt of a case number - do I now have to wait for my number to come up and for them to call me? Anyone else experiencing this, or did I miss something? I am registered with Schneider as an installer... I have an off-grid customer I talked into using their equipment partially based on feedback I got here about the new Gateway...so far I am unimpressed with internet connectivity and the Insight 2 portal... He is now snowed in for the winter here and access is only by snowmobile. Two identical systems and I need to get answers ASAP! Thanks for any feedback. Glenn _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:glenn.burt at glbcc.com [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Dec 4 12:27:54 2019 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 17:27:54 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider support? / Insight2 Message-ID: <3325d6321bb1473b9f370e592f530f08@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Insight2 has just released a new version, think 2 days ago - check it out. It is improved in terms of displaying performance data, but still doesn't seem to be as tight and intuitive as Insight1 is. With Insight1's data being completely unreliable, it's good this new platform is starting to stabilize. I do feel it was released too early without enough testing, though. The potential exists for programming systems via Insight2, but that functionality is not yet working. It is a significant technical challenge. I always prefer to have direct HTTP access to the remote site, though it is technically more complex to setup, and to keep it available for when needed. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: December-03-19 12:24 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider support? I would hope that you guys are feeding this back. I tell them what you are saying but better from you. I agree that Insight 2 is missing the most important screen that gateway and combox have and that is the battery summary screen. A 24 hour picture of the system that has months of data by the day. Disagree about Insight2. It does allow me to remote configure easily BTW. I was told that new gateway firmware would be out in Q4. Getting pretty near the end of that promise. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/conext-gateway-conext-insight-2-product-feedback/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 14:33:30 -0500, Howie Michaelson > wrote: Hi Glen, My experience with Schneider Support over the last several months has been very variable in terms of how accessible they are. There have been times when I ring right through, and others when I'm on hold for more than an hour (I think my personal record was a total of 2.5 hours in one day due to my call being dropped after 70 minutes of waiting. I have tried the online request for support route several times and I can't remember if I've ever received a call or email back from that, other than once when I got a call back maybe 5 days after I submitted my request - clearly that is not a very functional system. I also think it would be quite helpful if there was a way to reference a case number on line to see what the current status of a support issue was if it was something that I was waiting for a more information about or a higher tier response from, but as far as I know that is not available to us. When I do get through, I mostly feel like I've gotten decent to really good support, although my impression is that there is a fair amount of siloing between the various design, engineering, and support departments which has caused frustration for me in getting clear answers or solutions to issues and problems. As far as the gateway, I am happy with the interface and functionality when onsite, but the Insight 2 portal seems extremely limited and for the most part useless from an installer perspective, mostly geared toward making things easy to read for end users, but not supplying some real basic information and functionality needed to even keep track of a site, no less troubleshoot it offsite. So far it is a big disappointment since I had the impression that it was promised to give total transparency and programability into a remote site. I can only hope that Schneider is doing due diligence in developing those capabilities before releasing them on us - perhaps wishful thinking... Howie On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 3:57 PM Glenn Burt > wrote: First time in about a year that I have had to use Schneider support – I find that now the special number has no one answering it!? I created a case online 5 days ago and received receipt of a case number – do I now have to wait for my number to come up and for them to call me? Anyone else experiencing this, or did I miss something? I am registered with Schneider as an installer... I have an off-grid customer I talked into using their equipment partially based on feedback I got here about the new Gateway...so far I am unimpressed with internet connectivity and the Insight 2 portal... He is now snowed in for the winter here and access is only by snowmobile. Two identical systems and I need to get answers ASAP! Thanks for any feedback. Glenn _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Dec 4 13:00:55 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 10:00:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Schneider_support=3F_/_Insight2?= In-Reply-To: <3325d6321bb1473b9f370e592f530f08@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <3325d6321bb1473b9f370e592f530f08@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <63adbfe6f76ef306d78350cd64161f24@127.0.0.1> Yes I see it thanks Kevin. They must have heard Howie.... I attached a troubleshooting summary like Howie or Drake was asking. Insight2 has been out quite some time BTW. This is an update to it. I have been remote configging here since January. Insight1 was for COMBOX and was not cloud based for remote control. If you guys are mixing this up it is on you as it is pretty clear on the Schneider website. Sandra Herrera of Schneider has an excellent you tube channel for the company. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 4 Dec 2019 17:27:54 +0000, Kevin Pegg wrote: Insight2 has just released a new version, think 2 days ago - check it out. It is improved in terms of displaying performance data, but still doesn't seem to be as tight and intuitive as Insight1 is. With Insight1's data being completely unreliable, it's good this new platform is starting to stabilize. I do feel it was released too early without enough testing, though. The potential exists for programming systems via Insight2, but that functionality is not yet working. It is a significant technical challenge. I always prefer to have direct HTTP access to the remote site, though it is technically more complex to setup, and to keep it available for when needed. Kevin Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-smile.gif Type: image/gif Size: 344 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Troubleshooting summary. Nice!.PNG Type: image/png Size: 72589 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Mon Dec 9 10:28:23 2019 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 10:28:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aftermarket monitoring Message-ID: <001101d5aea5$4bcf4790$e36dd6b0$@mindspring.com> Good morning fellow wrenchers. Looking for recommendations on an aftermarket monitoring system. Commercial site, 208 and customer is putting back 3 times as much as they are using. They want to know when they are putting back, when they are buying and how much so we can design the right battery system to power shave those times. Thanks in advance. Peter Giroux American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions Roswell Ga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Dec 9 10:56:12 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 07:56:12 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aftermarket monitoring In-Reply-To: <001101d5aea5$4bcf4790$e36dd6b0$@mindspring.com> References: <001101d5aea5$4bcf4790$e36dd6b0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Eguage does performance monitoring codes not connect to inverters On Mon, Dec 9, 2019, 7:28 AM wrote: > Good morning fellow wrenchers. Looking for recommendations on an > aftermarket monitoring system. Commercial site, 208 and customer is putting > back 3 times as much as they are using. They want to know when they are > putting back, when they are buying and how much so we can design the right > battery system to power shave those times. Thanks in advance. > > > > Peter Giroux > > American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions > > Roswell Ga > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon Dec 9 10:55:18 2019 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Scot Arey) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 15:55:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aftermarket monitoring In-Reply-To: <001101d5aea5$4bcf4790$e36dd6b0$@mindspring.com> References: <001101d5aea5$4bcf4790$e36dd6b0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <2225D1DE8B1FA5EA.b47dfba9-af6b-4f18-8c06-32558720d491@mail.outlook.com> Egauge Howard "Scot" Arey owner, Solar CenTex 254 300 1228 On Mon, Dec 9, 2019 at 9:28 AM -0600, wrote: Good morning fellow wrenchers. Looking for recommendations on an aftermarket monitoring system. Commercial site, 208 and customer is putting back 3 times as much as they are using. They want to know when they are putting back, when they are buying and how much so we can design the right battery system to power shave those times. Thanks in advance.   Peter Giroux American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions Roswell Ga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at ecologicalsystems.biz Mon Dec 9 10:32:25 2019 From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz (Sky Sims) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 10:32:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aftermarket monitoring In-Reply-To: <001101d5aea5$4bcf4790$e36dd6b0$@mindspring.com> References: <001101d5aea5$4bcf4790$e36dd6b0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Eguage should work well for that application Sky Sims Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > On Dec 9, 2019, at 10:28 AM, pgiroux at mindspring.com wrote: > >  > Good morning fellow wrenchers. Looking for recommendations on an aftermarket monitoring system. Commercial site, 208 and customer is putting back 3 times as much as they are using. They want to know when they are putting back, when they are buying and how much so we can design the right battery system to power shave those times. Thanks in advance. > > Peter Giroux > American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions > Roswell Ga > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Mon Dec 9 11:33:06 2019 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 09:33:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aftermarket monitoring In-Reply-To: <001101d5aea5$4bcf4790$e36dd6b0$@mindspring.com> References: <001101d5aea5$4bcf4790$e36dd6b0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Peter - Here's a comparison chart I put together as we explore our 3rd party monitoring options in the wake of the Locus acquisition by Also Energy, with the caveat that the info is collected from various sources over time and may not be 100% accurate: *GPM* *Nor-Cal / Power Factors* *QOS* *Locus / Also * *Can we use inverter-native meters* Sometimes Sometimes (direct to PF) Yes No *If yes, can firmware upgrades / power cycling be pushed from the platform* Sometimes Sometimes Sometimes n/a *Can we build our own meters* Yes Yes Yes Yes *Vendor offers a pre-configured meter* Yes Yes Yes Yes *SCADA capability* Yes Yes Minimal Yes *Mobile app * Yes ? Yes 2: CMMS (available off-line), Monitoring No locus / yes Also *Predictive analytics that account for weather* Yes Yes Yes Yes *PV O&M services* No Partnerships No No *Weather station options* Multiple Lufft, Huxaflux (pyranometer), IMT (temp) Obvious, others RT1 / INT reference cell with temp *Storage capabilities* Yes In development Yes Some *Pricing structure* Pay for hardware, software, and data, all w/ a significant margin built in $10-15k minimum: RG meter (accuenergy), datalogger (Obvious Aquasuite, Windows (Power Factors), cell modem (Sierra Wireless), owner buys wireless plan $/MW/year Pay for hardware, software, and data, all w/ a significant margin built in *Notes* Optimized for utility and large-commercial Open source Swinerton partner Partnering with eGuage for a lower-cost (potentially) meter option https://store.egauge.net/ - Cost $250/meter to set up / $100/year for platform Optimized for utility and large-commercial Obvious relationship eGaurd - amalgamate data Good ticketing / calendaring All eGuage meters are RG, but only some CTs; Cellular is AT&T or T-mobile; Pricing structure should work for small commercial $400/site to set up all the alarms / models in PowerTrack I'm curious what others are doing these days as Also continues to consolidate monitoring platforms. It sounds like an interesting project Peter, feel free to give me a call if the customer might be interested in financing or 3rd party ownership for the new ESS. Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. On Mon, Dec 9, 2019 at 8:28 AM wrote: > Good morning fellow wrenchers. Looking for recommendations on an > aftermarket monitoring system. Commercial site, 208 and customer is putting > back 3 times as much as they are using. They want to know when they are > putting back, when they are buying and how much so we can design the right > battery system to power shave those times. Thanks in advance. > > > > Peter Giroux > > American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions > > Roswell Ga > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Wed Dec 11 11:35:34 2019 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 06:35:34 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Top of Pole Mount recommendations Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, I have a project that I originally called out Preformed Line Products's 15,14, and 9 panel TPM product. It has come to light that the product will not meet the AHJ (County of Hawaii) requirements. Which is ASCE 7-10 135 mph. So now I am on the hunt. Anybody got a recommendation? As always, thank you. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Wed Dec 11 11:57:54 2019 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 08:57:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Top of Pole Mount recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tamarack Solar Products has Top-of-Pole mounts with stamped engineering drawings for that wind speed, but only up to 6 modules per mount David Katz On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 8:35 AM Lou Russo wrote: > Aloha Wrenches, > > I have a project that I originally called out Preformed Line Products's > 15,14, and 9 panel TPM product. It has come to light that the product will > not meet the AHJ (County of Hawaii) requirements. Which is ASCE 7-10 135 > mph. > > So now I am on the hunt. > > Anybody got a recommendation? > > As always, thank you. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Wed Dec 11 12:07:10 2019 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 12:07:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Top of Pole Mount recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Check out MTSolar. https://www.mtsolar.us/ rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Dec 11, 2019, at 11:36 AM, Lou Russo wrote: > >  > Aloha Wrenches, > > I have a project that I originally called out Preformed Line Products's 15,14, and 9 panel TPM product. It has come to light that the product will not meet the AHJ (County of Hawaii) requirements. Which is ASCE 7-10 135 mph. > > So now I am on the hunt. > > Anybody got a recommendation? > > As always, thank you. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Dec 17 10:15:28 2019 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 10:15:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reactive Power Message-ID: <49f242d84d21a6149fac97942e7e88d7ca7ee0b0@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, I checked my laptop with a Kill A Watt meter. It drew 25 W,but 49 VA. Which number represents the true draw on the batteries? Thanks, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Tue Dec 17 10:34:18 2019 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 10:34:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reactive Power In-Reply-To: <49f242d84d21a6149fac97942e7e88d7ca7ee0b0@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <49f242d84d21a6149fac97942e7e88d7ca7ee0b0@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: The 25 W would be used to size the batteries, 49 VA would be used to size the inverter. Good luck, Will -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 10:17 AM wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I checked my laptop with a Kill A Watt meter. It drew 25 W,but 49 VA. > Which number represents the true draw on the batteries? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex at blueskyenergyinc.com Tue Dec 17 10:35:07 2019 From: alex at blueskyenergyinc.com (Alex MeVay) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 10:35:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reactive Power In-Reply-To: <49f242d84d21a6149fac97942e7e88d7ca7ee0b0@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <49f242d84d21a6149fac97942e7e88d7ca7ee0b0@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hi Drake, 25W should be the draw from the batteries after accounting for inverter efficiency. Note that the low power factor will reduce the effective inverter efficiency, since the inverter still has 49VA of reactive power causing losses. For a small switching power supply like the laptop's, the poor power factor is most likely caused by high current peaks as the internal capacitors charge for just a small fraction of the total sinewave cycle, rather than a large phase difference like you might see with a motor or other inductive load. Alex MeVay Blue Sky Energy * http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com Genasun * http://www.genasun.com On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 10:17 AM wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I checked my laptop with a Kill A Watt meter. It drew 25 W,but 49 VA. Which number represents the true draw on the batteries? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Dec 17 10:32:44 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 07:32:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reactive Power In-Reply-To: <49f242d84d21a6149fac97942e7e88d7ca7ee0b0@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <49f242d84d21a6149fac97942e7e88d7ca7ee0b0@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <2836393E-166B-4914-832B-855986E2B545@gmail.com> Hi drake, The batteries see watts The inverter sees VA jay > On Dec 17, 2019, at 7:17 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > >  > Hello Wrenches, > > I checked my laptop with a Kill A Watt meter. It drew 25 W,but 49 VA. Which number represents the true draw on the batteries? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Dec 17 11:15:01 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 08:15:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gateway update version 1.05 Message-ID: <893593f7ce880d6bb1f6a6ed2248e2e6@127.0.0.1> This may address some of the issues in the group here with Gateway and Insight2. WiFi station mode and modbus maps are out https://mailchi.mp/07d2198ddd95/webinar-battery-technologies-for-solar-applications-1214913?e=2eb4a8e1cc [1] Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [3] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] https://mailchi.mp/07d2198ddd95/webinar-battery-technologies-for-solar-applications-1214913?e=2eb4a8e1cc [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Dec 17 14:18:09 2019 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 12:18:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Powered PVP 2900-208 comms Message-ID: <027601d5b50e$b8201ea0$28605be0$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: I’m asking for a person looking info on this unit; does anyone have the modbus information to make use of the comm card? PV Powered is no more and we’re not coming up with much. Feel free to contact me off list. Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamie.greenwired at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 13:03:09 2019 From: jamie.greenwired at gmail.com (Jamie Rennie) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 10:03:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Talesun TP660p Modules Message-ID: Looking to see if anyone has installed any Talesun TP660p Modules in Northern CA SRA zones? Local AHJ is asking for: "...manufactures spec sheet and UL listing fire rating for proposed solar modules. Listing must specify minimum Type 1 or Type 2 fire rating." Not finding this information anywhere online and have yet to find a valid manufacturers phone number. Respectfully, Jamie Rennie Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 F: 707-923-2077 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [image: Description: signature] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 13:56:09 2019 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 11:56:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Talesun TP660p Modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jamie; I installed a couple pallets of Talesun modules for a while, the fire class rating is in the installation manual (they are fire class C) Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 11:04 AM Jamie Rennie wrote: > Looking to see if anyone has installed any Talesun TP660p Modules in > Northern CA SRA zones? Local AHJ is asking for: > > "...manufactures spec sheet and UL listing fire rating for proposed solar > modules. Listing must specify minimum Type 1 or Type 2 fire rating." > > Not finding this information anywhere online and have yet to find a valid > manufacturers phone number. > > > Respectfully, > > > Jamie Rennie > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 > > F: 707-923-2077 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > [image: Description: signature] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Thu Dec 19 18:27:10 2019 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (petertor@pobox.com) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 15:27:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SBX.X Warranties Message-ID: <1551169176.238648.1576798030347@mailbusiness.ionos.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu Dec 19 18:48:41 2019 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 13:48:41 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarWorld Message-ID: <024201d5b6c6$d8878e80$8996ab80$@com> Aloha all, Does anyone know who or what, if anyone, is covering the warranties of all those many thousands of SolarWorld mods installed far and wide? Thanks, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Dec 20 10:15:03 2019 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 15:15:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SBX.X Warranties In-Reply-To: <1551169176.238648.1576798030347@mailbusiness.ionos.com> References: <1551169176.238648.1576798030347@mailbusiness.ionos.com> Message-ID: Peter – The standard warranty on Sunny Boy US, Sunny Boy Storage US (and ABU) and CORE1 US inverters (installed anywhere in north america) is 10 years, and can be extended to 15 or 20 total years. The TS4 devices we sell are warrantied for 25 years. While promotional stock lasts, we have SI 6048-US units offered at a discount with 10 year standard warranty as well (please contact your SMA sales rep or Authorized Distributor to verify they are still available). Please note that the warranty is also transferrable, so a Sunny Boy warranty can transfer to a new homeowner should the house it is installed on be sold within the warranty period. Your SMA sales rep or Authorized Distributor can give you current warranty extension prices – it is based on device size and extension period. Here is the current (effective July 1) warranty document outlining all of this: https://files.sma.de/dl/2580/COM-RES-GB-en-54.pdf Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html SMA America Solar Academy webinars: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html Choose "United States" [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg][http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image022.jpg at 01D5B032.9C10D5A0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of petertor at pobox.com Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2019 4:27 PM To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: petertor at pobox.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SBX.X Warranties I installed a lot of Sunny Boy, Xantrex GT, Outback GVXT, Fronius IG and IG Plus, and re-branded SunPower inverters over the many years, and I have promoted the SB line to both the in-warranty and out-of-warranty clients whose inverters have failed. I especially like the multiple MPPT inputs and the SPS. What bothers me, though, is the 5-year product warranty. What happened to the 10-year product warranty? Does one have to pony up $$$ to get a 10-year warranty for SMA. What about the the other manus? I would like to stick with the SBX.X even if the -41 version does not come with a back plate. So, is the std warranty for SBX.X products 5-years? Is there an "upgrade" to a 10 -year warranty, and what is the cost? What about about Solar Edge, Fronius IG Plus? Any help would be appreciated Peter Parrish, Ph.D. President, SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 428 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 428 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 717 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: image004.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 480 bytes Desc: image005.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: image006.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16634 bytes Desc: image007.jpg URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Fri Dec 20 12:44:42 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 12:44:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery Message-ID: Hi All, I am someone's last ditch effort to get their system working which has been non-functional since a few months after installation, 13 years ago... After getting some new batteries in there, I can at least fire it up. It is a grid tie with battery backup situation with two Xantrex SW4048 inverters. Each inverter is kind of like its own system with two Outback MX60 CC's per inverter, and each inverter powers its own 120V backed up loads panel. They do not see each other until their 60A single pole breakers in the main panel. What seems to be happening is that after turning on the inverters the AC1 in good light will flash for about 30 seconds, then it syncs up to the grid and the light stays on solid. But then after a little bit, that light will start flashing, indicating that the utility power has been dropped, when it has not actually been dropped. Then at some point the backed up loads would lose power. The customer says that every 1-10 minutes, they would lose the backed up loads for 10-90 seconds. This happened all night long until they bypassed the inverters. There are a few other things of note: 1. There is a Xantrex GTI for each inverter. 2. I see in the manual there is information about stacking the inverters, but I am guessing in this setup this not necessary or would even be counter productive to stack the inverters. Not sure if the inverters not being stacked could cause one of them to unsync with the utility? 3. Neutrals and grounds are bonded in their main panel, but also in each of the Xantrex DC breaker boxes. I was going to separate them in the DC breaker boxes, but found that there is no way to isolate the battery negative bus from the box itself, and figured it would be dodgy to unground the enclosure. So I am also not sure if the multiple N-G bonds could be causing these issues. Does anyone have any ideas? Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Dec 20 12:57:17 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 09:57:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why would neutral be in the DC conduit box? This just wrong but I doubt this is the problem. Since this never worked properly or has not in 13 years, I would suggest replacement with modern equipment. SW from xantrex has been out of support for around 15 years and always was a headache grid tied, in my opinion. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 12:44:42 -0500, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Hi All, I am someone's last ditch effort to get their system working which has been non-functional since a few months after installation, 13 years ago... After getting some new batteries in there, I can at least fire it up. It is a grid tie with battery backup situation with two Xantrex SW4048 inverters. Each inverter is kind of like its own system with two Outback MX60 CC's per inverter, and each inverter powers its own 120V backed up loads panel. They do not see each other until their 60A single pole breakers in the main panel. What seems to be happening is that after turning on the inverters the AC1 in good light will flash for about 30 seconds, then it syncs up to the grid and the light stays on solid. But then after a little bit, that light will start flashing, indicating that the utility power has been dropped, when it has not actually been dropped. Then at some point the backed up loads would lose power. The customer says that every 1-10 minutes, they would lose the backed up loads for 10-90 seconds. This happened all night long until they bypassed the inverters. There are a few other things of note: 1. There is a Xantrex GTI for each inverter. 2. I see in the manual there is information about stacking the inverters, but I am guessing in this setup this not necessary or would even be counter productive to stack the inverters. Not sure if the inverters not being stacked could cause one of them to unsync with the utility? 3. Neutrals and grounds are bonded in their main panel, but also in each of the Xantrex DC breaker boxes. I was going to separate them in the DC breaker boxes, but found that there is no way to isolate the battery negative bus from the box itself, and figured it would be dodgy to unground the enclosure. So I am also not sure if the multiple N-G bonds could be causing these issues. Does anyone have any ideas? Cheers, Dave DAVE TEDEYAN, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com [3] Solar * Sustainability * Energy * Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.taitem.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Fri Dec 20 13:02:53 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 13:02:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, Sorry, misspeak on my part. It is DC negatives and grounds that are tied together. No neutrals in the DC box. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 12:57 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Why would neutral be in the DC conduit box? This just wrong but I doubt > this is the problem. > > Since this never worked properly or has not in 13 years, I would suggest > replacement with modern equipment. SW from xantrex has been out of support > for around 15 years and always was a headache grid tied, in my opinion. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 12:44:42 -0500, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am someone's last ditch effort to get their system working which has > been non-functional since a few months after installation, 13 years ago... > > After getting some new batteries in there, I can at least fire it up. It > is a grid tie with battery backup situation with two Xantrex SW4048 > inverters. Each inverter is kind of like its own system with two Outback > MX60 CC's per inverter, and each inverter powers its own 120V backed up > loads panel. They do not see each other until their 60A single pole > breakers in the main panel. > > What seems to be happening is that after turning on the inverters the AC1 > in good light will flash for about 30 seconds, then it syncs up to the grid > and the light stays on solid. But then after a little bit, that light will > start flashing, indicating that the utility power has been dropped, when it > has not actually been dropped. Then at some point the backed up loads would > lose power. The customer says that every 1-10 minutes, they would lose the > backed up loads for 10-90 seconds. This happened all night long until they > bypassed the inverters. > > There are a few other things of note: > 1. There is a Xantrex GTI for each inverter. > 2. I see in the manual there is information about stacking the inverters, > but I am guessing in this setup this not necessary or would even be counter > productive to stack the inverters. Not sure if the inverters not being > stacked could cause one of them to unsync with the utility? > 3. Neutrals and grounds are bonded in their main panel, but also in each > of the Xantrex DC breaker boxes. I was going to separate them in the DC > breaker boxes, but found that there is no way to isolate the battery > negative bus from the box itself, and figured it would be dodgy to unground > the enclosure. So I am also not sure if the multiple N-G bonds could be > causing these issues. > > Does anyone have any ideas? > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Dec 20 13:00:26 2019 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 10:00:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery (and GTI questions) Message-ID: Dave: I don’t have a definite answer for you, but I do have my suspicion: The GTI units may be at fault. As you probably know, these units were an afterthought add-in to try and meet IEEE and/or UL testing. How the GTIs work is a bit of a mystery to me, and I would like to learn more about them. I had an interesting experience with the GTI: I have a GTBB customer without GTIs. They were having a billing dispute with the local utility (PG&E). I disabled the Sell function for a few months, but I later learned the SW inverters (2 SW5548) were selling about 1 kWh per day even with Sell disabled. I can imagine this would violate the listing and is likely why the GTIs were invented. You might try bypassing the GTIs, if only for a limited time test. Then you can judge if you want to recommend a system without GTIs. There is a risk without them of being unable to defeat sell and of violating a building permit (if one exists) by modifying the system. Good luck and please keep me informed about how this works out. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan *Sent:* Friday, December 20, 2019 9:45 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery Hi All, I am someone's last ditch effort to get their system working which has been non-functional since a few months after installation, 13 years ago... After getting some new batteries in there, I can at least fire it up. It is a grid tie with battery backup situation with two Xantrex SW4048 inverters. Each inverter is kind of like its own system with two Outback MX60 CC's per inverter, and each inverter powers its own 120V backed up loads panel. They do not see each other until their 60A single pole breakers in the main panel. What seems to be happening is that after turning on the inverters the AC1 in good light will flash for about 30 seconds, then it syncs up to the grid and the light stays on solid. But then after a little bit, that light will start flashing, indicating that the utility power has been dropped, when it has not actually been dropped. Then at some point the backed up loads would lose power. The customer says that every 1-10 minutes, they would lose the backed up loads for 10-90 seconds. This happened all night long until they bypassed the inverters. There are a few other things of note: 1. There is a Xantrex GTI for each inverter. 2. I see in the manual there is information about stacking the inverters, but I am guessing in this setup this not necessary or would even be counter productive to stack the inverters. Not sure if the inverters not being stacked could cause one of them to unsync with the utility? 3. Neutrals and grounds are bonded in their main panel, but also in each of the Xantrex DC breaker boxes. I was going to separate them in the DC breaker boxes, but found that there is no way to isolate the battery negative bus from the box itself, and figured it would be dodgy to unground the enclosure. So I am also not sure if the multiple N-G bonds could be causing these issues. Does anyone have any ideas? Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Fri Dec 20 14:18:22 2019 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 19:18:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Dave, Guessing it’s a synchronization problem between the two inverters. Depending on the placement of the grid tie breakers, the two inverters are presenting themselves as either in parallel (2 x 120v sources on the same leg) or “series” (120 / 240 on two 120V legs). The attached manual excerpt and tech note talk about both. Seems that you need a synch cable in either case, recently did a rebuild on an SW 5048 (pm for internals rebuilder info) and needed cable to get both inverters to work properly. Have at least one grid-tie / backup system that has been running for years with dual SW / GTI’s – time for battery replacement, rest of system still going… Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Dave Tedeyan Sent: Friday, December 20, 2019 1:03 PM To: offgridsolar at sti.net; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery Dave, Sorry, misspeak on my part. It is DC negatives and grounds that are tied together. No neutrals in the DC box. Cheers, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 12:57 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: Why would neutral be in the DC conduit box? This just wrong but I doubt this is the problem. Since this never worked properly or has not in 13 years, I would suggest replacement with modern equipment. SW from xantrex has been out of support for around 15 years and always was a headache grid tied, in my opinion. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 12:44:42 -0500, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: Hi All, I am someone's last ditch effort to get their system working which has been non-functional since a few months after installation, 13 years ago... After getting some new batteries in there, I can at least fire it up. It is a grid tie with battery backup situation with two Xantrex SW4048 inverters. Each inverter is kind of like its own system with two Outback MX60 CC's per inverter, and each inverter powers its own 120V backed up loads panel. They do not see each other until their 60A single pole breakers in the main panel. What seems to be happening is that after turning on the inverters the AC1 in good light will flash for about 30 seconds, then it syncs up to the grid and the light stays on solid. But then after a little bit, that light will start flashing, indicating that the utility power has been dropped, when it has not actually been dropped. Then at some point the backed up loads would lose power. The customer says that every 1-10 minutes, they would lose the backed up loads for 10-90 seconds. This happened all night long until they bypassed the inverters. There are a few other things of note: 1. There is a Xantrex GTI for each inverter. 2. I see in the manual there is information about stacking the inverters, but I am guessing in this setup this not necessary or would even be counter productive to stack the inverters. Not sure if the inverters not being stacked could cause one of them to unsync with the utility? 3. Neutrals and grounds are bonded in their main panel, but also in each of the Xantrex DC breaker boxes. I was going to separate them in the DC breaker boxes, but found that there is no way to isolate the battery negative bus from the box itself, and figured it would be dodgy to unground the enclosure. So I am also not sure if the multiple N-G bonds could be causing these issues. Does anyone have any ideas? Cheers, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC [cid:image001.gif at 01D5B73F.05B24710] 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 5DD17443B6814684BEA5BA6A3C5C2E3A.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: 5DD17443B6814684BEA5BA6A3C5C2E3A.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SW Series Manual on multiple inverters.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 355359 bytes Desc: SW Series Manual on multiple inverters.pdf URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SWI PARALLEL SERIES Stacking cable instructions.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 82812 bytes Desc: SWI PARALLEL SERIES Stacking cable instructions.pdf URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Dec 20 17:37:57 2019 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 17:37:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48346353-5440-4B97-801E-EB8763379A49@swnl.net> With this set up the AC feed into the grid is not constant. The current will ramp up then back down. Open the connection end of the inverters and you will see a small black (behind the cardboard) cord/plug that can be disconnected to confirm operation & disable ramping effect. As long as the inverters are connected to L1/L2 respectfully as individual inverters then this should work. I do have the cable, but its really not the most efficient AC coupling design out there. The SWs still can be repaired using older boards but its pricy, there is a market for them so you might be able to sell them and purchase something a bit more up to date. I have the cable & a refurbished XW5548 contact me off list if interested. Tump > On Dec 20, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Lloyd Hoffstatter wrote: > > Dave, > > Guessing it’s a synchronization problem between the two inverters. > Depending on the placement of the grid tie breakers, the two inverters are presenting themselves as either in parallel (2 x 120v sources on the same leg) or “series” (120 / 240 on two 120V legs). > The attached manual excerpt and tech note talk about both. Seems that you need a synch cable in either case, recently did a rebuild on an SW 5048 (pm for internals rebuilder info) and needed cable to get both inverters to work properly. > > Have at least one grid-tie / backup system that has been running for years with dual SW / GTI’s – time for battery replacement, rest of system still going… > > Best regards, > Lloyd > Lloyd Hoffstatter > Sunstruck Consulting > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Dave Tedeyan > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2019 1:03 PM > To: offgridsolar at sti.net ; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery > > Dave, > Sorry, misspeak on my part. It is DC negatives and grounds that are tied together. No neutrals in the DC box. > Cheers, > Dave > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 12:57 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: > Why would neutral be in the DC conduit box? This just wrong but I doubt this is the problem. > > Since this never worked properly or has not in 13 years, I would suggest replacement with modern equipment. SW from xantrex has been out of support for around 15 years and always was a headache grid tied, in my opinion. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 12:44:42 -0500, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am someone's last ditch effort to get their system working which has been non-functional since a few months after installation, 13 years ago... > > After getting some new batteries in there, I can at least fire it up. It is a grid tie with battery backup situation with two Xantrex SW4048 inverters. Each inverter is kind of like its own system with two Outback MX60 CC's per inverter, and each inverter powers its own 120V backed up loads panel. They do not see each other until their 60A single pole breakers in the main panel. > > What seems to be happening is that after turning on the inverters the AC1 in good light will flash for about 30 seconds, then it syncs up to the grid and the light stays on solid. But then after a little bit, that light will start flashing, indicating that the utility power has been dropped, when it has not actually been dropped. Then at some point the backed up loads would lose power. The customer says that every 1-10 minutes, they would lose the backed up loads for 10-90 seconds. This happened all night long until they bypassed the inverters. > > There are a few other things of note: > 1. There is a Xantrex GTI for each inverter. > 2. I see in the manual there is information about stacking the inverters, but I am guessing in this setup this not necessary or would even be counter productive to stack the inverters. Not sure if the inverters not being stacked could cause one of them to unsync with the utility? > 3. Neutrals and grounds are bonded in their main panel, but also in each of the Xantrex DC breaker boxes. I was going to separate them in the DC breaker boxes, but found that there is no way to isolate the battery negative bus from the box itself, and figured it would be dodgy to unground the enclosure. So I am also not sure if the multiple N-G bonds could be causing these issues. > > Does anyone have any ideas? > Cheers, > Dave > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > <5DD17443B6814684BEA5BA6A3C5C2E3A.gif> > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Dec 20 18:01:31 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 16:01:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: <48346353-5440-4B97-801E-EB8763379A49@swnl.net> References: <48346353-5440-4B97-801E-EB8763379A49@swnl.net> Message-ID: <65786fcf-fc70-dae8-beb0-ec3ff4d172e0@solarray.com> The SWs were awesome for off grid in their day, but infamous for burning=20 up a couple of kW worth of array in inefficiency when grid tied.=C2=A0 I=20 actually saw several systems that consumed more power from the grid than=20 they produced.=C2=A0 Once the GTI box was added,=C2=A0 it just got worse.= =C2=A0 I would=20 compare that system to an early 80s carbureted vehicle: partial design=20 solutions stacked on top of each other to meet emissions standards; then=20 we got computer controlled fuel injection.=C2=A0 Nobody ever went back.=C2= =A0 I'd=20 suggest the same there: It never was a good GT solution.=C2=A0 The equipmen= t=20 is beyond its usable life anyway, time to upgrade. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/20/19 3:37 PM, Tump wrote: > With this set up the AC feed */into/* the grid is not constant. The=20 > current will ramp up then back down. Open the connection end of the=20 > inverters and you will see a small black (behind the cardboard)=20 > cord/plug that can be disconnected to confirm operation & disable=20 > ramping effect. As long as the inverters are connected to L1/L2=20 > respectfully as individual inverters then this should work. I do have=20 > the cable, but its really not the most efficient AC coupling design=20 > out there. > The SWs still can be repaired using older boards but its pricy, =C2=A0the= re=20 > is a market for them so =C2=A0you might be able to sell them and purchase= =20 > something a bit more up to date. I have the cable & a refurbished=20 > XW5548 contact me off list if interested. Tump >> On Dec 20, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Lloyd Hoffstatter=20 >> > > wrote: >> >> Dave, >> Guessing it=E2=80=99s a synchronization problem between the two inverter= s. >> Depending on the placement of the grid tie breakers, the two=20 >> inverters are presenting themselves as either in parallel (2 x 120v=20 >> sources on the same leg) or =E2=80=9Cseries=E2=80=9D (120 / 240 on two 1= 20V legs). >> The attached manual excerpt and tech note talk about both.=C2=A0 Seems=20 >> that you need a synch cable in either case, recently did a rebuild on=20 >> an SW 5048 (pm for internals rebuilder info) and needed cable to get=20 >> both inverters to work properly. >> Have at least one grid-tie / backup system that has been running for=20 >> years with dual SW / GTI=E2=80=99s =E2=80=93 time for battery replacemen= t, rest of=20 >> system still going=E2=80=A6 >> Best regards, >> Lloyd >> Lloyd Hoffstatter >> Sunstruck Consulting >> Sent fromMail for=20 >> Windows 10 >> *From:*Dave Tedeyan >> *Sent:*Friday, December 20, 2019 1:03 PM >> *To:*offgridsolar at sti.net ;RE-wrenches=20 >> >> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery >> Dave, >> Sorry, misspeak on my part. It is DC negatives and grounds that are=20 >> tied together. No neutrals in the DC box. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> 110 South Albany Street=C2=A0| Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o._607.277.1118 x121_ f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> Solar=C2=A0=E2=80=A2Sustainability=C2=A0=E2=80=A2=C2=A0Energy=C2=A0=E2= =80=A2=C2=A0Design >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 12:57 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar=20 >> > wrote: >> >> Why would neutral be in the DC conduit box? This just wrong but I >> doubt this is the problem. >> >> Since this never worked properly or has not in 13 years, I would >> suggest replacement with modern equipment. SW from xantrex has >> been out of support for around 15 years and always was a headache >> grid tied, in my opinion. >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >> >> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >> >> *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/* >> >> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >> >> *text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 12:44:42 -0500, Dave Tedeyan >> > wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> I am someone's last ditch effort to get their system working >> which has been non-functional since a few months after >> installation, 13 years ago... >> After getting=C2=A0some new batteries in there, I can at least >> fire it up. It is a grid tie with battery backup situation >> with two Xantrex SW4048 inverters. Each inverter is kind of >> like its own system with two Outback MX60 CC's per inverter, >> and each inverter powers its own 120V backed up loads panel. >> They do not see each other until their 60A single pole >> breakers in the main panel. >> What seems to be happening is that after turning on the >> inverters the AC1 in good light will flash for about 30 >> seconds, then it syncs up to the grid and the light stays on >> solid. But then after a little bit, that light will start >> flashing, indicating that the utility power has been dropped, >> when it has not actually been dropped. Then at some point the >> backed up loads would lose power. The customer says that >> every 1-10 minutes, they would lose the backed up loads for >> 10-90 seconds. This happened all night long until they >> bypassed the inverters. >> There are a few other things of note: >> 1. There is a Xantrex GTI for each inverter. >> 2. I see in the manual there is information about stacking >> the inverters, but I am guessing in this setup this not >> necessary or would even be counter productive to stack the >> inverters. Not sure if the inverters not being stacked could >> cause one of them to unsync with the utility? >> 3. Neutrals and grounds are bonded in their main panel, but >> also in each of the Xantrex DC breaker=C2=A0boxes. I was going to >> separate them in the DC breaker boxes, but found that there >> is no way to isolate the battery negative bus from the box >> itself, and figured it would be dodgy to unground the >> enclosure. So I am also not sure if the multiple N-G bonds >> could be causing these issues. >> Does anyone have any ideas? >> Cheers, >> Dave >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> <5DD17443B6814684BEA5BA6A3C5C2E3A.gif> >> 110 South Albany Street=C2=A0| Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o._607.277.1118 x121_=C2=A0 f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> Solar=C2=A0=E2=80=A2Sustainability=C2=A0=E2=80=A2=C2=A0Energy=C2= =A0=E2=80=A2=C2=A0Design >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> >> -- >> >> =20 >> >> =20 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm=20 >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > Stacking cable=20 >> instructions.pdf>_______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm=20 >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> *Tump at swnl.net=20 >> **www.SWNL.net*=20 >> >> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >> */=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern Californ= ia/**/ >> /**/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0207-832-7574=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Cl. 610-517-8401 /* >> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >> >> */=C2=A0********=C2=A0 MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**//**/NABCEP=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >> /**/ >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**/Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Sat Dec 21 20:43:52 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 20:43:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: <65786fcf-fc70-dae8-beb0-ec3ff4d172e0@solarray.com> References: <48346353-5440-4B97-801E-EB8763379A49@swnl.net> <65786fcf-fc70-dae8-beb0-ec3ff4d172e0@solarray.com> Message-ID: Thanks all for the suggestions. Regarding the stacking, I read a little more into it. It seems like this is actually neither series or parallel stacking, since each inverter independently feeds its own 120V backed up loads panel. It will be interesting though to turn off one inverter and see if the issue continues, which would rule out a stacking concern. Sounds like it will also be worth bypassing the GTI to see if that could be causing any issues. There is also no concern about limiting selling here. They do have utility approval for selling. Tump, you mention unplugging a cord/plug. Can you tell me a little more about what operation this would confirm? The system is not AC coupled. I'll report back with what I learn. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 6:01 PM Ray wrote: > The SWs were awesome for off grid in their day, but infamous for burning > up a couple of kW worth of array in inefficiency when grid tied. I > actually saw several systems that consumed more power from the grid than > they produced. Once the GTI box was added, it just got worse. I would > compare that system to an early 80s carbureted vehicle: partial design > solutions stacked on top of each other to meet emissions standards; then we > got computer controlled fuel injection. Nobody ever went back. I'd > suggest the same there: It never was a good GT solution. The equipment is > beyond its usable life anyway, time to upgrade. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 12/20/19 3:37 PM, Tump wrote: > > With this set up the AC feed *into* the grid is not constant. The current > will ramp up then back down. Open the connection end of the inverters and > you will see a small black (behind the cardboard) cord/plug that can be > disconnected to confirm operation & disable ramping effect. As long as the > inverters are connected to L1/L2 respectfully as individual inverters then > this should work. I do have the cable, but its really not the most > efficient AC coupling design out there. > The SWs still can be repaired using older boards but its pricy, there is > a market for them so you might be able to sell them and purchase something > a bit more up to date. I have the cable & a refurbished XW5548 contact me > off list if interested. Tump > > On Dec 20, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Lloyd Hoffstatter < > lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: > > Dave, > > Guessing it’s a synchronization problem between the two inverters. > Depending on the placement of the grid tie breakers, the two inverters are > presenting themselves as either in parallel (2 x 120v sources on the same > leg) or “series” (120 / 240 on two 120V legs). > The attached manual excerpt and tech note talk about both. Seems that you > need a synch cable in either case, recently did a rebuild on an SW 5048 (pm > for internals rebuilder info) and needed cable to get both inverters to > work properly. > > Have at least one grid-tie / backup system that has been running for years > with dual SW / GTI’s – time for battery replacement, rest of system still > going… > > Best regards, > Lloyd > Lloyd Hoffstatter > Sunstruck Consulting > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > *From: *Dave Tedeyan > *Sent: *Friday, December 20, 2019 1:03 PM > *To: *offgridsolar at sti.net; RE-wrenches > > *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery > > Dave, > Sorry, misspeak on my part. It is DC negatives and grounds that are tied > together. No neutrals in the DC box. > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 12:57 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > > Why would neutral be in the DC conduit box? This just wrong but I doubt > this is the problem. > > Since this never worked properly or has not in 13 years, I would suggest > replacement with modern equipment. SW from xantrex has been out of support > for around 15 years and always was a headache grid tied, in my opinion. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 12:44:42 -0500, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am someone's last ditch effort to get their system working which has > been non-functional since a few months after installation, 13 years ago... > > After getting some new batteries in there, I can at least fire it up. It > is a grid tie with battery backup situation with two Xantrex SW4048 > inverters. Each inverter is kind of like its own system with two Outback > MX60 CC's per inverter, and each inverter powers its own 120V backed up > loads panel. They do not see each other until their 60A single pole > breakers in the main panel. > > What seems to be happening is that after turning on the inverters the AC1 > in good light will flash for about 30 seconds, then it syncs up to the grid > and the light stays on solid. But then after a little bit, that light will > start flashing, indicating that the utility power has been dropped, when it > has not actually been dropped. Then at some point the backed up loads would > lose power. The customer says that every 1-10 minutes, they would lose the > backed up loads for 10-90 seconds. This happened all night long until they > bypassed the inverters. > > There are a few other things of note: > 1. There is a Xantrex GTI for each inverter. > 2. I see in the manual there is information about stacking the inverters, > but I am guessing in this setup this not necessary or would even be counter > productive to stack the inverters. Not sure if the inverters not being > stacked could cause one of them to unsync with the utility? > 3. Neutrals and grounds are bonded in their main panel, but also in each > of the Xantrex DC breaker boxes. I was going to separate them in the DC > breaker boxes, but found that there is no way to isolate the battery > negative bus from the box itself, and figured it would be dodgy to unground > the enclosure. So I am also not sure if the multiple N-G bonds could be > causing these issues. > > Does anyone have any ideas? > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > <5DD17443B6814684BEA5BA6A3C5C2E3A.gif> > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > cable instructions.pdf>_______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Dec 22 03:57:20 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 00:57:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well l would start simple and get a sync cable and make sure that they are al least staying g in correct phasing, then look closely at the programming, look at the grid voltages and settings, take it out of IEEE for test purposes only, you might find out you have a board that's out of calibration causing the issue but start simple Jerry On Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 9:44 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > > I am someone's last ditch effort to get their system working which has > been non-functional since a few months after installation, 13 years ago... > > After getting some new batteries in there, I can at least fire it up. It > is a grid tie with battery backup situation with two Xantrex SW4048 > inverters. Each inverter is kind of like its own system with two Outback > MX60 CC's per inverter, and each inverter powers its own 120V backed up > loads panel. They do not see each other until their 60A single pole > breakers in the main panel. > > What seems to be happening is that after turning on the inverters the AC1 > in good light will flash for about 30 seconds, then it syncs up to the grid > and the light stays on solid. But then after a little bit, that light will > start flashing, indicating that the utility power has been dropped, when it > has not actually been dropped. Then at some point the backed up loads would > lose power. The customer says that every 1-10 minutes, they would lose the > backed up loads for 10-90 seconds. This happened all night long until they > bypassed the inverters. > > There are a few other things of note: > 1. There is a Xantrex GTI for each inverter. > 2. I see in the manual there is information about stacking the inverters, > but I am guessing in this setup this not necessary or would even be counter > productive to stack the inverters. Not sure if the inverters not being > stacked could cause one of them to unsync with the utility? > 3. Neutrals and grounds are bonded in their main panel, but also in each > of the Xantrex DC breaker boxes. I was going to separate them in the DC > breaker boxes, but found that there is no way to isolate the battery > negative bus from the box itself, and figured it would be dodgy to unground > the enclosure. So I am also not sure if the multiple N-G bonds could be > causing these issues. > > Does anyone have any ideas? > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Sun Dec 22 15:45:11 2019 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 12:45:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <956e0cc7-990a-d447-af8f-eb1a4a4f0793@midnitesolar.com> You can test to see if both inverters are staying in sync by just watching the voltage between L1 and L2 of the outputs for a while.  If they do not deviate much from 240VAC over several minutes, then they are probably sync'd OK...  You can also help verify this by unplugging the sync cable and they should start to drift apart in phase which will be seen eventually reflected in the 240VAC drifting around and through zero volts and back up to 240V again. Could be seconds or minutes depending on the internal clock stability. boB On 12/22/2019 12:57 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Well l would start simple and get a sync cable and make sure that they > are al least staying g in correct phasing, then look closely at the > programming, look at the grid voltages and settings, take it out of > IEEE for test purposes only, you might find out you have a board > that's out of calibration causing the issue but start simple > Jerry > > On Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 9:44 AM Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am someone's last ditch effort to get their system working which > has been non-functional since a few months after installation, 13 > years ago... > > After getting some new batteries in there, I can at least fire it > up. It is a grid tie with battery backup situation with two > Xantrex SW4048 inverters. Each inverter is kind of like its own > system with two Outback MX60 CC's per inverter, and each inverter > powers its own 120V backed up loads panel. They do not see each > other until their 60A single pole breakers in the main panel. > > What seems to be happening is that after turning on the inverters > the AC1 in good light will flash for about 30 seconds, then it > syncs up to the grid and the light stays on solid. But then after > a little bit, that light will start flashing, indicating that the > utility power has been dropped, when it has not actually been > dropped. Then at some point the backed up loads would lose power. > The customer says that every 1-10 minutes, they would lose the > backed up loads for 10-90 seconds. This happened all night long > until they bypassed the inverters. > > There are a few other things of note: > 1. There is a Xantrex GTI for each inverter. > 2. I see in the manual there is information about stacking the > inverters, but I am guessing in this setup this not necessary or > would even be counter productive to stack the inverters. Not sure > if the inverters not being stacked could cause one of them to > unsync with the utility? > 3. Neutrals and grounds are bonded in their main panel, but also > in each of the Xantrex DC breaker boxes. I was going to separate > them in the DC breaker boxes, but found that there is no way to > isolate the battery negative bus from the box itself, and figured > it would be dodgy to unground the enclosure. So I am also not sure > if the multiple N-G bonds could be causing these issues. > > Does anyone have any ideas? > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. _607.277.1118 x121_  f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar •Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Sun Dec 22 15:47:05 2019 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 12:47:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Forgot to say that if the inverters ARE grid tied, then they will NOT drift around in phase and will be synchronized  and therefore will stay in sync and be passing through from grid to output. boB On 12/22/2019 12:57 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Well l would start simple and get a sync cable and make sure that they > are al least staying g in correct phasing, then look closely at the > programming, look at the grid voltages and settings, take it out of > IEEE for test purposes only, you might find out you have a board > that's out of calibration causing the issue but start simple > Jerry > > On Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 9:44 AM Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am someone's last ditch effort to get their system working which > has been non-functional since a few months after installation, 13 > years ago... > > After getting some new batteries in there, I can at least fire it > up. It is a grid tie with battery backup situation with two > Xantrex SW4048 inverters. Each inverter is kind of like its own > system with two Outback MX60 CC's per inverter, and each inverter > powers its own 120V backed up loads panel. They do not see each > other until their 60A single pole breakers in the main panel. > > What seems to be happening is that after turning on the inverters > the AC1 in good light will flash for about 30 seconds, then it > syncs up to the grid and the light stays on solid. But then after > a little bit, that light will start flashing, indicating that the > utility power has been dropped, when it has not actually been > dropped. Then at some point the backed up loads would lose power. > The customer says that every 1-10 minutes, they would lose the > backed up loads for 10-90 seconds. This happened all night long > until they bypassed the inverters. > > There are a few other things of note: > 1. There is a Xantrex GTI for each inverter. > 2. I see in the manual there is information about stacking the > inverters, but I am guessing in this setup this not necessary or > would even be counter productive to stack the inverters. Not sure > if the inverters not being stacked could cause one of them to > unsync with the utility? > 3. Neutrals and grounds are bonded in their main panel, but also > in each of the Xantrex DC breaker boxes. I was going to separate > them in the DC breaker boxes, but found that there is no way to > isolate the battery negative bus from the box itself, and figured > it would be dodgy to unground the enclosure. So I am also not sure > if the multiple N-G bonds could be causing these issues. > > Does anyone have any ideas? > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. _607.277.1118 x121_  f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar •Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue Dec 24 15:14:18 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 15:14:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi All, So I went back today and updated all the programming. There was actually lots of sun too (a rare event in upstate NY this time of year)! The inverters have not yet had any issues with powering the backed up loads so far. But there have been issues with selling back to the grid. One inverter was selling just fine, with the sell current right around the max sell setting. The other inverter would very quickly ramp up its sell and go way past the setting (set at 30A) and start selling at up to about 60A, and then would stop selling (but continue to power the backed up loads. When selling, the AC1 in good light would stay on green solid. Then when the one inverter would stop selling, that light would flash. Then 5 minutes or so later, it would click a bunch of times, start selling, and within about 10 seconds overshoot the setting again and kick off. I tried Tumps suggestion of removing the black jumper. When I did that in each inverter, neither one would sell, but they would continue to power the backed up loads. I also tried bypassing the GTI on the inverter that was having selling issues. When I did that, the AC1 in good light never came on at all, even though I verified AC voltage on the input. It never started selling, but it would at least continue to power the backed up loads. I only had it like this for about 15 minutes before I had to leave the site, so will be checking in on the system in the coming days. Last time I was there and fired it up, it worked fine to begin with and it was not until many hours later that the issues with powering the backed up loads started appearing. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 5:11 PM bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > Forgot to say that if the inverters ARE grid tied, then they will NOT > drift around in phase and will > > be synchronized and therefore will stay in sync and be passing through > from grid to output. > > boB > > > > On 12/22/2019 12:57 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Well l would start simple and get a sync cable and make sure that they are > al least staying g in correct phasing, then look closely at the > programming, look at the grid voltages and settings, take it out of IEEE > for test purposes only, you might find out you have a board that's out of > calibration causing the issue but start simple > Jerry > > On Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 9:44 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I am someone's last ditch effort to get their system working which has >> been non-functional since a few months after installation, 13 years ago... >> >> After getting some new batteries in there, I can at least fire it up. It >> is a grid tie with battery backup situation with two Xantrex SW4048 >> inverters. Each inverter is kind of like its own system with two Outback >> MX60 CC's per inverter, and each inverter powers its own 120V backed up >> loads panel. They do not see each other until their 60A single pole >> breakers in the main panel. >> >> What seems to be happening is that after turning on the inverters the AC1 >> in good light will flash for about 30 seconds, then it syncs up to the grid >> and the light stays on solid. But then after a little bit, that light will >> start flashing, indicating that the utility power has been dropped, when it >> has not actually been dropped. Then at some point the backed up loads would >> lose power. The customer says that every 1-10 minutes, they would lose the >> backed up loads for 10-90 seconds. This happened all night long until they >> bypassed the inverters. >> >> There are a few other things of note: >> 1. There is a Xantrex GTI for each inverter. >> 2. I see in the manual there is information about stacking the inverters, >> but I am guessing in this setup this not necessary or would even be counter >> productive to stack the inverters. Not sure if the inverters not being >> stacked could cause one of them to unsync with the utility? >> 3. Neutrals and grounds are bonded in their main panel, but also in each >> of the Xantrex DC breaker boxes. I was going to separate them in the DC >> breaker boxes, but found that there is no way to isolate the battery >> negative bus from the box itself, and figured it would be dodgy to unground >> the enclosure. So I am also not sure if the multiple N-G bonds could be >> causing these issues. >> >> Does anyone have any ideas? >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Tue Dec 24 19:28:42 2019 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 17:28:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery Message-ID: <20191224172842.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.c3b7150e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Wed Dec 25 21:12:50 2019 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 21:12:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: <20191224172842.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.c3b7150e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20191224172842.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.c3b7150e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Hi Don, Yes, this sounds very similar. Is there a way to make the inverter start a bulk charge from the grid (except daily from the bulk charge timer)? I have both inverters connected to the same set of batteries for troubleshooting. I am concerned in the northeast winter that the one inverter might kill the batteries if we don't get enough solar for a few days. The other inverter is still connected to the grid though, and it would be a shame for it to not charge the batteries. The manual said something about it doing a bulk charge after reconnecting to the grid, but powercycling the grid connection does not seem to work. Or maybe it would not waste too much energy to use the bulk charge timer initiate a bulk charge every evening after it has been selling all day? Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Tue, Dec 24, 2019 at 7:29 PM wrote: > Hi Dave > Your experience here closely resembles mine on at least two jobs with > these inverters. > When the AC1in light blinks the inverter is no longer connected to the > grid. The loads are running off battery power, but this will be short term > in winter weather. I have a VFXR3648A in my truck now to replace an SW4048 > that has lost the ability to connect to the grid. It killed the batteries > in rainy weather, so they are being replaced as well. > > If you set the terminals of your meter from the AC1 input to the Load > output you will see the voltage phase difference. If they are in phase the > voltage difference is zero. In my case this voltage drifts from 0 to 240 > over a period of 15 secs or so, indicating the lack of sync. I have not > found anyone who repairs these old modified square wave inverters. The old > SW4048 should still be good for off grid use. > If anyone wants it let me know. Located in Bolinas, CA. > At least I can go surfing after service calls there.... > > Don Barch > Energy Solar > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 12, Issue 362 > From: re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > Date: Tue, December 24, 2019 2:34 pm > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > > > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the > Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines > from the quoted message. > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery (Dave Tedeyan) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 15:14:18 -0500 > From: Dave Tedeyan > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi All, > So I went back today and updated all the programming. There was actually > lots of sun too (a rare event in upstate NY this time of year)! > > The inverters have not yet had any issues with powering the backed up loads > so far. But there have been issues with selling back to the grid. One > inverter was selling just fine, with the sell current right around the max > sell setting. The other inverter would very quickly ramp up its sell and go > way past the setting (set at 30A) and start selling at up to about 60A, and > then would stop selling (but continue to power the backed up loads. When > selling, the AC1 in good light would stay on green solid. Then when the one > inverter would stop selling, that light would flash. Then 5 minutes or so > later, it would click a bunch of times, start selling, and within about 10 > seconds overshoot the setting again and kick off. > > I tried Tumps suggestion of removing the black jumper. When I did that in > each inverter, neither one would sell, but they would continue to power the > backed up loads. > > I also tried bypassing the GTI on the inverter that was having selling > issues. When I did that, the AC1 in good light never came on at all, even > though I verified AC voltage on the input. It never started selling, but it > would at least continue to power the backed up loads. I only had it like > this for about 15 minutes before I had to leave the site, so will be > checking in on the system in the coming days. Last time I was there and > fired it up, it worked fine to begin with and it was not until many hours > later that the issues with powering the backed up loads started appearing. > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 5:11 PM bob at midnitesolar.com > > wrote: > > > > > Forgot to say that if the inverters ARE grid tied, then they will NOT > > drift around in phase and will > > > > be synchronized and therefore will stay in sync and be passing through > > from grid to output. > > > > boB > > > > > > > > On 12/22/2019 12:57 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > > > Well l would start simple and get a sync cable and make sure that they > are > > al least staying g in correct phasing, then look closely at the > > programming, look at the grid voltages and settings, take it out of IEEE > > for test purposes only, you might find out you have a board that's out of > > calibration causing the issue but start simple > > Jerry > > > > On Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 9:44 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > > >> Hi All, > >> > >> I am someone's last ditch effort to get their system working which has > >> been non-functional since a few months after installation, 13 years > ago... > >> > >> After getting some new batteries in there, I can at least fire it up. It > >> is a grid tie with battery backup situation with two Xantrex SW4048 > >> inverters. Each inverter is kind of like its own system with two Outback > >> MX60 CC's per inverter, and each inverter powers its own 120V backed up > >> loads panel. They do not see each other until their 60A single pole > >> breakers in the main panel. > >> > >> What seems to be happening is that after turning on the inverters the > AC1 > >> in good light will flash for about 30 seconds, then it syncs up to the > grid > >> and the light stays on solid. But then after a little bit, that light > will > >> start flashing, indicating that the utility power has been dropped, > when it > >> has not actually been dropped. Then at some point the backed up loads > would > >> lose power. The customer says that every 1-10 minutes, they would lose > the > >> backed up loads for 10-90 seconds. This happened all night long until > they > >> bypassed the inverters. > >> > >> There are a few other things of note: > >> 1. There is a Xantrex GTI for each inverter. > >> 2. I see in the manual there is information about stacking the > inverters, > >> but I am guessing in this setup this not necessary or would even be > counter > >> productive to stack the inverters. Not sure if the inverters not being > >> stacked could cause one of them to unsync with the utility? > >> 3. Neutrals and grounds are bonded in their main panel, but also in each > >> of the Xantrex DC breaker boxes. I was going to separate them in the DC > >> breaker boxes, but found that there is no way to isolate the battery > >> negative bus from the box itself, and figured it would be dodgy to > unground > >> the enclosure. So I am also not sure if the multiple N-G bonds could be > >> causing these issues. > >> > >> Does anyone have any ideas? > >> Cheers, > >> Dave > >> > >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > >> > >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > >> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > >> www.taitem.com > >> > >> Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design > >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20191224/4dfa8f2d/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 12, Issue 362 > ******************************************** > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Dec 25 21:23:49 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 18:23:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery In-Reply-To: <20191224172842.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.c3b7150e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20191224172842.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.c3b7150e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Wrenches There is a guy that has parts and boards for the SW4048 Inverters, l may have got the name from this list, l will post it if there is any interest Jerry On Tue, Dec 24, 2019, 5:09 PM wrote: > Hi Dave > Your experience here closely resembles mine on at least two jobs with > these inverters. > When the AC1in light blinks the inverter is no longer connected to the > grid. The loads are running off battery power, but this will be short term > in winter weather. I have a VFXR3648A in my truck now to replace an SW4048 > that has lost the ability to connect to the grid. It killed the batteries > in rainy weather, so they are being replaced as well. > > If you set the terminals of your meter from the AC1 input to the Load > output you will see the voltage phase difference. If they are in phase the > voltage difference is zero. In my case this voltage drifts from 0 to 240 > over a period of 15 secs or so, indicating the lack of sync. I have not > found anyone who repairs these old modified square wave inverters. The old > SW4048 should still be good for off grid use. > If anyone wants it let me know. Located in Bolinas, CA. > At least I can go surfing after service calls there.... > > Don Barch > Energy Solar > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 12, Issue 362 > From: re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > Date: Tue, December 24, 2019 2:34 pm > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > > > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the > Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines > from the quoted message. > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery (Dave Tedeyan) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 15:14:18 -0500 > From: Dave Tedeyan > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW 4048 grid tie mystery > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi All, > So I went back today and updated all the programming. There was actually > lots of sun too (a rare event in upstate NY this time of year)! > > The inverters have not yet had any issues with powering the backed up loads > so far. But there have been issues with selling back to the grid. One > inverter was selling just fine, with the sell current right around the max > sell setting. The other inverter would very quickly ramp up its sell and go > way past the setting (set at 30A) and start selling at up to about 60A, and > then would stop selling (but continue to power the backed up loads. When > selling, the AC1 in good light would stay on green solid. Then when the one > inverter would stop selling, that light would flash. Then 5 minutes or so > later, it would click a bunch of times, start selling, and within about 10 > seconds overshoot the setting again and kick off. > > I tried Tumps suggestion of removing the black jumper. When I did that in > each inverter, neither one would sell, but they would continue to power the > backed up loads. > > I also tried bypassing the GTI on the inverter that was having selling > issues. When I did that, the AC1 in good light never came on at all, even > though I verified AC voltage on the input. It never started selling, but it > would at least continue to power the backed up loads. I only had it like > this for about 15 minutes before I had to leave the site, so will be > checking in on the system in the coming days. Last time I was there and > fired it up, it worked fine to begin with and it was not until many hours > later that the issues with powering the backed up loads started appearing. > > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 5:11 PM bob at midnitesolar.com > > wrote: > > > > > Forgot to say that if the inverters ARE grid tied, then they will NOT > > drift around in phase and will > > > > be synchronized and therefore will stay in sync and be passing through > > from grid to output. > > > > boB > > > > > > > > On 12/22/2019 12:57 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > > > Well l would start simple and get a sync cable and make sure that they > are > > al least staying g in correct phasing, then look closely at the > > programming, look at the grid voltages and settings, take it out of IEEE > > for test purposes only, you might find out you have a board that's out of > > calibration causing the issue but start simple > > Jerry > > > > On Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 9:44 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > > >> Hi All, > >> > >> I am someone's last ditch effort to get their system working which has > >> been non-functional since a few months after installation, 13 years > ago... > >> > >> After getting some new batteries in there, I can at least fire it up. It > >> is a grid tie with battery backup situation with two Xantrex SW4048 > >> inverters. Each inverter is kind of like its own system with two Outback > >> MX60 CC's per inverter, and each inverter powers its own 120V backed up > >> loads panel. They do not see each other until their 60A single pole > >> breakers in the main panel. > >> > >> What seems to be happening is that after turning on the inverters the > AC1 > >> in good light will flash for about 30 seconds, then it syncs up to the > grid > >> and the light stays on solid. But then after a little bit, that light > will > >> start flashing, indicating that the utility power has been dropped, > when it > >> has not actually been dropped. Then at some point the backed up loads > would > >> lose power. The customer says that every 1-10 minutes, they would lose > the > >> backed up loads for 10-90 seconds. This happened all night long until > they > >> bypassed the inverters. > >> > >> There are a few other things of note: > >> 1. There is a Xantrex GTI for each inverter. > >> 2. I see in the manual there is information about stacking the > inverters, > >> but I am guessing in this setup this not necessary or would even be > counter > >> productive to stack the inverters. Not sure if the inverters not being > >> stacked could cause one of them to unsync with the utility? > >> 3. Neutrals and grounds are bonded in their main panel, but also in each > >> of the Xantrex DC breaker boxes. I was going to separate them in the DC > >> breaker boxes, but found that there is no way to isolate the battery > >> negative bus from the box itself, and figured it would be dodgy to > unground > >> the enclosure. So I am also not sure if the multiple N-G bonds could be > >> causing these issues. > >> > >> Does anyone have any ideas? > >> Cheers, > >> Dave > >> > >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > >> > >> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > >> o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > >> www.taitem.com > >> > >> Solar ? Sustainability ? Energy ? Design > >> Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20191224/4dfa8f2d/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 12, Issue 362 > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Dec 31 11:52:20 2019 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:52:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems Message-ID: G'day and Happy New Year to All, Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16 batteries used to power a frig and freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, 4 Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC contractor back in 2016. This was their first offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would like to add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is since we are powering only a 12v frig and freezer why not simplify the system by creating a single battery bank and then tapping off of the 24v bank using proper fusing and creating a 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v world so I'm asking our esteemed colleges as to options on how to address this. Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise there) and they are also having firmware issues with an old Mate 3 and would like me to install a new Mate 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I head out to site. Thanks All, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Tue Dec 31 12:05:48 2019 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 17:05:48 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, I would look into DC / DC converters (many available). Happy New Year Chris and All, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Chris Schaefer Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2019 11:52 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems G'day and Happy New Year to All, Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16 batteries used to power a frig and freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, 4 Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC contractor back in 2016. This was their first offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would like to add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is since we are powering only a 12v frig and freezer why not simplify the system by creating a single battery bank and then tapping off of the 24v bank using proper fusing and creating a 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v world so I'm asking our esteemed colleges as to options on how to address this. Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise there) and they are also having firmware issues with an old Mate 3 and would like me to install a new Mate 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I head out to site. Thanks All, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s [http://www.solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Solar-Wind-FX-Logo.png] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [http://solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/certs.jpg] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Dec 31 12:05:35 2019 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 09:05:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tapping a battery bank is not a good practice. it will unbalance the bank. Much better to add a 24V electronic converter for the 12V loads. Then replace the 12V loads when time permits. They will need a spare converter so buy 2. Amazon has tons of these converters. Your quote is great BTW. H N Y ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:52:20 -0500, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'day and Happy New Year to All, Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16 batteries used to power a frig and freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, 4 Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC contractor back in 2016. This was their first offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would like to add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is since we are powering only a 12v frig and freezer why not simplify the system by creating a single battery bank and then tapping off of the 24v bank using proper fusing and creating a 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v world so I'm asking our esteemed colleges as to options on how to address this. Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise there) and they are also having firmware issues with an old Mate 3 and would like me to install a new Mate 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I head out to site. Thanks All, Christopher- Chris Schaefer's [3] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [4] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [5]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://webmail.sti.net/http:www.solarandwindfx.com [4] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [5] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Dec 31 11:55:30 2019 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 08:55:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39ABA0BC-DDB2-44D8-8FF5-672F1FCBCF8E@gmail.com> Hi Chris Agreed. 12v from either a balancer or iota Happy new yr Jay > On Dec 31, 2019, at 8:52 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > >  > G'day and Happy New Year to All, > > Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16 batteries used to power a frig and freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, 4 Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC contractor back in 2016. This was their first offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would like to add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is since we are powering only a 12v frig and freezer why not simplify the system by creating a single battery bank and then tapping off of the 24v bank using proper fusing and creating a 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v world so I'm asking our esteemed colleges as to options on how to address this. > > Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise there) and they are also having firmware issues with an old Mate 3 and would like me to install a new Mate 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I head out to site. > > Thanks All, > Christopher- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Dec 31 12:57:04 2019 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 10:57:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2458818d-68ea-34df-9e71-5f72b7b23286@solarray.com> Even with battery balancers, battery tapping is still a really bad idea.  I know, I did it on my own system in the 90s.  The DC/DC converters are the way to go, but be sure and over size it by a fair amount to handle the fridge starting surge. Unfortunately my favorites are no longer available: made by Solar Converters in Canada. I've seen them last decades.  Iota should be good stuff, their chargers have long term reliability.  Samlex inverters have been around for quite a while too, but I don't have long term experience with their converters. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/31/19 10:05 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Tapping a battery bank is not a good practice. it will unbalance the > bank. Much better to add a 24V electronic converter for the 12V loads. > Then replace the 12V loads when time permits. They will need a spare > converter so buy 2. Amazon has tons of these converters. Your quote is > great BTW. H N Y ! > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:52:20 -0500, Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> G'day and Happy New Year to All, >> Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a >> 12v battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16 batteries used to >> power a frig and freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with >> 3kw of PV, 4 Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC >> contractor back in 2016. This was their first offgrid project. Oh >> boy, lol. The client would like to add more battery capacity to both. >> My thought here is since we are powering only a 12v frig and freezer >> why not simplify the system by creating a single battery bank and >> then tapping off of the 24v bank using proper fusing and creating a >> 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v world so I'm asking our esteemed >> colleges as to options on how to address this. >> Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise there) and they >> are also having firmware issues with an old Mate 3 and would like me >> to install a new Mate 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I >> head out to site. >> Thanks All, >> Christopher- >> >> Chris Schaefer's >> >> /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: >> chris at solarandwindfx.com / >> >> / >> / >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Tue Dec 31 15:46:19 2019 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 13:46:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems In-Reply-To: <2458818d-68ea-34df-9e71-5f72b7b23286@solarray.com> References: <2458818d-68ea-34df-9e71-5f72b7b23286@solarray.com> Message-ID: I second everyone. Center-tapping a 24 or 48v battery bank for 12v SEEMS like it should work just fine, especially for low load infrequent use like a 12v water pressure pump for a greenhouse, a weather station, etc.. Nope, I've been a loser every time, with that battery or pair always the first to go bad. Samlex and Victron both make DC-DC converters I have had good luck with; they are thermally protected and you can stack multiple units for more amperage. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:57 AM Ray wrote: > Even with battery balancers, battery tapping is still a really bad idea. > I know, I did it on my own system in the 90s. The DC/DC converters are the > way to go, but be sure and over size it by a fair amount to handle the > fridge starting surge. Unfortunately my favorites are no longer available: > made by Solar Converters in Canada. I've seen them last decades. Iota > should be good stuff, their chargers have long term reliability. Samlex > inverters have been around for quite a while too, but I don't have long > term experience with their converters. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 12/31/19 10:05 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Tapping a battery bank is not a good practice. it will unbalance the bank. > Much better to add a 24V electronic converter for the 12V loads. Then > replace the 12V loads when time permits. They will need a spare converter > so buy 2. Amazon has tons of these converters. Your quote is great BTW. H N > Y ! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:52:20 -0500, Chris Schaefer > wrote: > > G'day and Happy New Year to All, > > Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v > battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16 batteries used to power a > frig and freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, 4 > Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC contractor back in > 2016. This was their first offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would > like to add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is since we are > powering only a 12v frig and freezer why not simplify the system by > creating a single battery bank and then tapping off of the 24v bank using > proper fusing and creating a 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v world so > I'm asking our esteemed colleges as to options on how to address this. > > Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise there) and they are > also having firmware issues with an old Mate 3 and would like me to install > a new Mate 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I head out to site. > > Thanks All, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer's > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 **www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > -- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Dec 31 18:46:31 2019 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 16:46:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems In-Reply-To: References: <2458818d-68ea-34df-9e71-5f72b7b23286@solarray.com> Message-ID: <001301d5c034$8881fbb0$9985f310$@solarwork.com> Want to kill a battery bank? Go ahead and center tap it! I have seen this way to many times. Lots of really efficient DC to DC converters out there. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2019 1:46 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems I second everyone. Center-tapping a 24 or 48v battery bank for 12v SEEMS like it should work just fine, especially for low load infrequent use like a 12v water pressure pump for a greenhouse, a weather station, etc.. Nope, I've been a loser every time, with that battery or pair always the first to go bad. Samlex and Victron both make DC-DC converters I have had good luck with; they are thermally protected and you can stack multiple units for more amperage. Dan Fink Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:57 AM Ray > wrote: Even with battery balancers, battery tapping is still a really bad idea. I know, I did it on my own system in the 90s. The DC/DC converters are the way to go, but be sure and over size it by a fair amount to handle the fridge starting surge. Unfortunately my favorites are no longer available: made by Solar Converters in Canada. I've seen them last decades. Iota should be good stuff, their chargers have long term reliability. Samlex inverters have been around for quite a while too, but I don't have long term experience with their converters. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/31/19 10:05 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Tapping a battery bank is not a good practice. it will unbalance the bank. Much better to add a 24V electronic converter for the 12V loads. Then replace the 12V loads when time permits. They will need a spare converter so buy 2. Amazon has tons of these converters. Your quote is great BTW. H N Y ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:52:20 -0500, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'day and Happy New Year to All, Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16 batteries used to power a frig and freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, 4 Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC contractor back in 2016. This was their first offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would like to add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is since we are powering only a 12v frig and freezer why not simplify the system by creating a single battery bank and then tapping off of the 24v bank using proper fusing and creating a 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v world so I'm asking our esteemed colleges as to options on how to address this. Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise there) and they are also having firmware issues with an old Mate 3 and would like me to install a new Mate 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I head out to site. Thanks All, Christopher- Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 425 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 463 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Dec 31 18:51:21 2019 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 13:51:21 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems In-Reply-To: References: <2458818d-68ea-34df-9e71-5f72b7b23286@solarray.com> Message-ID: Agreed: no 12v tap. I’ll add (with modest experience, as this doesn’t come up as an upgrade very often any more) that Mean Well, despite the odd name, proved itself pretty reliable in some early Wattsun tracker drives and some other DC-DC applications. Available online; see https://www.meanwell-web.com/en-gb/dcdc-converters/ Allan > On Dec 31, 2019, at 10:46 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > > I second everyone. Center-tapping a 24 or 48v battery bank for 12v SEEMS like it should work just fine, especially for low load infrequent use like a 12v water pressure pump for a greenhouse, a weather station, etc.. Nope, I've been a loser every time, with that battery or pair always the first to go bad. > > Samlex and Victron both make DC-DC converters I have had good luck with; they are thermally protected and you can stack multiple units for more amperage. > > Dan Fink > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting > NABCEP PV Associate > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > danbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > >> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:57 AM Ray wrote: >> Even with battery balancers, battery tapping is still a really bad idea. I know, I did it on my own system in the 90s. The DC/DC converters are the way to go, but be sure and over size it by a fair amount to handle the fridge starting surge. Unfortunately my favorites are no longer available: made by Solar Converters in Canada. I've seen them last decades. Iota should be good stuff, their chargers have long term reliability. Samlex inverters have been around for quite a while too, but I don't have long term experience with their converters. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >>> On 12/31/19 10:05 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>> Tapping a battery bank is not a good practice. it will unbalance the bank. Much better to add a 24V electronic converter for the 12V loads. Then replace the 12V loads when time permits. They will need a spare converter so buy 2. Amazon has tons of these converters. Your quote is great BTW. H N Y ! >>> >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>>> On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:52:20 -0500, Chris Schaefer wrote: >>>> >>>> G'day and Happy New Year to All, >>>> >>>> Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16 batteries used to power a frig and freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, 4 Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC contractor back in 2016. This was their first offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would like to add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is since we are powering only a 12v frig and freezer why not simplify the system by creating a single battery bank and then tapping off of the 24v bank using proper fusing and creating a 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v world so I'm asking our esteemed colleges as to options on how to address this. >>>> >>>> Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise there) and they are also having firmware issues with an old Mate 3 and would like me to install a new Mate 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I head out to site. >>>> >>>> Thanks All, >>>> Christopher- >>>> Chris Schaefer's >>>> >>>> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>>> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>>> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >>>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Dec 31 19:53:17 2019 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 16:53:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] combining 24v and 12v systems In-Reply-To: References: <2458818d-68ea-34df-9e71-5f72b7b23286@solarray.com> Message-ID: Wrenches I have to agree with Dana, battery imbalance is alway an issue, add in a mid tap load and failure is in your future, l have also seen this done and it never works as you might hope. Jerry On Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 12:46 PM Dan Fink wrote: > I second everyone. Center-tapping a 24 or 48v battery bank for 12v SEEMS > like it should work just fine, especially for low load infrequent use like > a 12v water pressure pump for a greenhouse, a weather station, etc.. Nope, > I've been a loser every time, with that battery or pair always the first to > go bad. > > Samlex and Victron both make DC-DC converters I have had good luck with; > they are thermally protected and you can stack multiple units for more > amperage. > > Dan Fink > Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting > NABCEP PV Associate > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:57 AM Ray wrote: > >> Even with battery balancers, battery tapping is still a really bad idea. >> I know, I did it on my own system in the 90s. The DC/DC converters are the >> way to go, but be sure and over size it by a fair amount to handle the >> fridge starting surge. Unfortunately my favorites are no longer available: >> made by Solar Converters in Canada. I've seen them last decades. Iota >> should be good stuff, their chargers have long term reliability. Samlex >> inverters have been around for quite a while too, but I don't have long >> term experience with their converters. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 12/31/19 10:05 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> >> Tapping a battery bank is not a good practice. it will unbalance the >> bank. Much better to add a 24V electronic converter for the 12V loads. Then >> replace the 12V loads when time permits. They will need a spare converter >> so buy 2. Amazon has tons of these converters. Your quote is great BTW. H N >> Y ! >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:52:20 -0500, Chris Schaefer >> wrote: >> >> G'day and Happy New Year to All, >> >> Recently came across this offgrid OB FX system. The first part is a 12v >> battery system w/ 2 PV modules, 2 Trojan L16 batteries used to power a >> frig and freezer about 6 years old. The second is a 24v with 3kw of PV, 4 >> Trojan L16's, twin OB FX inverters installed by an HVAC contractor back in >> 2016. This was their first offgrid project. Oh boy, lol. The client would >> like to add more battery capacity to both. My thought here is since we are >> powering only a 12v frig and freezer why not simplify the system by >> creating a single battery bank and then tapping off of the 24v bank using >> proper fusing and creating a 12v buss? Admittedly I live in a 48v world so >> I'm asking our esteemed colleges as to options on how to address this. >> >> Oh yeah, the installer is unresponsive (no surprise there) and they are >> also having firmware issues with an old Mate 3 and would like me to install >> a new Mate 3s but that's another issue I'll tackle when I head out to site. >> >> Thanks All, >> Christopher- >> >> Chris Schaefer's >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 **www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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