From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Tue Jan 2 19:19:15 2018 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2018 16:19:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Administrative stuff Message-ID: Hello again Wrenches. Testing again, please do not respond to this post, contact me off list if you have any questions. Michael Welch wrote at 04:58 PM 11/26/2017: >Hello Wrenches, just an admin note. If you have any questions, please contact me off list. > >You may have noticed that graphics files have not been showing up in Wrenches' posts. > >I've been working with our host to get this figured out, and I hope it gets corrected soon. This email is a test, but please do not respond. From william at millersolar.com Wed Jan 3 00:49:23 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 21:49:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote monitoring via landline Message-ID: <594c6a50298b37162f7e29bf91c31a4a@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am designing a remote off-grid system to run some traffic lights. Due to the critical nature of this traffic control function, remote monitoring is desirable. There is apparently a landline on site. I don’t imagine the S/N is very high. Do any of you now a way to monitor and control a remote system using a dial-up landline? Thanks in advance. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From august at luminalt.com Wed Jan 3 10:00:15 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 07:00:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote monitoring via landline In-Reply-To: <594c6a50298b37162f7e29bf91c31a4a@mail.gmail.com> References: <594c6a50298b37162f7e29bf91c31a4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, Can the phone company install a DSL modem to get your equipment regular internet? August *August Goers* Luminalt On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 9:49 PM, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am designing a remote off-grid system to run some traffic lights. Due to > the critical nature of this traffic control function, remote monitoring is > desirable. There is apparently a landline on site. I don’t imagine the > S/N is very high. > > > > Do any of you now a way to monitor and control a remote system using a > dial-up landline? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Jan 3 17:48:30 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 17:48:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote monitoring via landline In-Reply-To: <594c6a50298b37162f7e29bf91c31a4a@mail.gmail.com> References: <594c6a50298b37162f7e29bf91c31a4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004601d384e4$fb4b43a0$f1e1cae0$@glbcc.com> I think the Morningstar devices can be made modem compatible. Good Luck! Glenn -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2018 12:49 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote monitoring via landline Friends: I am designing a remote off-grid system to run some traffic lights. Due to the critical nature of this traffic control function, remote monitoring is desirable. There is apparently a landline on site. I don’t imagine the S/N is very high. Do any of you now a way to monitor and control a remote system using a dial-up landline? Thanks in advance. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From sb at igc.org Wed Jan 3 20:25:41 2018 From: sb at igc.org (Solar Bozo) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 17:25:41 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Michael testing, do not respond Message-ID: <467205271.16152.1515029141790@wamui-megara.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hello again Wrenches. This is Michael, testing file attachments again from a different email address. Please do not respond to this post, contact me off list if you have any questions. From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Wed Jan 3 20:44:22 2018 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2018 17:44:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Administrative stuff Message-ID: Hello again Wrenches. Testing again, please do not respond to this post, contact me off list if you have any questions. Michael Welch wrote at 04:58 PM 11/26/2017: >Hello Wrenches, just an admin note. If you have any questions, please contact me off list. > >You may have noticed that graphics files have not been showing up in Wrenches' posts. > >I've been working with our host to get this figured out, and I hope it gets corrected soon. This email is a test, but please do not respond. From daniel at greenwired.com Thu Jan 4 12:49:57 2018 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 10:49:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GS battery use? Message-ID: I am reaching out to the group to see if there is any experience with GS batteries. Their cycle life graph is better than I have seen in any VRLA battery I have seen (see comparison below). I wanted to know if anyone on here has used them and if so have you experienced the cycle life that they are reporting. I am waiting for a reply from the manufacturer for more info as well. [image: Inline image 2] as comparison: Rolls gel cell cycle life is more classic to what we see in most batteries http://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/batteries/S2-1070GEL.pdf [image: Inline image 3] or Full river DC400-6 http://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/batteries/DC400-6 [image: Inline image 1] What am i missing or how do they do this? thanks Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 Ext. 500 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) From steve at surrette.com Thu Jan 4 13:12:52 2018 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 10:12:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GS battery use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Daniel, There is a big difference in the construction of these two very different batteries. The FR battery is a AGM battery with a limited amount of electrolyte and a much smaller plate than the OPZv Tubular Gel Battery. The larger plate (Tubular Plated Gel) as well as the excess Gel Electrolyte are going to give you longer life cycles, of course if properly taken care of. Both batteries are very sensitive to undercharging/overcharging... You must be spot on with your settings/usage to actually get this much life out of both batteries. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Daniel Tittmann wrote: > I am reaching out to the group to see if there is any experience with GS > batteries. Their cycle life graph is better than I have seen in any VRLA > battery I have seen (see comparison below). I wanted to know if anyone on > here has used them and if so have you experienced the cycle life that they > are reporting. I am waiting for a reply from the manufacturer for more > info as well. > > [image: Inline image 2] > > as comparison: > Rolls gel cell cycle life is more classic to what we see in most batteries > http://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/batteries/S2-1070GEL.pdf > [image: Inline image 3] > > or Full river DC400-6 > http://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/batteries/DC400-6 > [image: Inline image 1] > What am i missing or how do they do this? > thanks > Daniel > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 Ext. 500 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From daniel at greenwired.com Thu Jan 4 13:20:02 2018 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 11:20:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GS battery use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: forgot to include the link to the GS batteries. http://www.gsbattery.com/PDFs/SLR1000-2.pdf Thank you Steve for the information on the construction of the batteries and how that affects cycle life. Cheers- Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 Ext. 500 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 10:49 AM, Daniel Tittmann wrote: > I am reaching out to the group to see if there is any experience with GS > batteries. Their cycle life graph is better than I have seen in any VRLA > battery I have seen (see comparison below). I wanted to know if anyone on > here has used them and if so have you experienced the cycle life that they > are reporting. I am waiting for a reply from the manufacturer for more > info as well. > > [image: Inline image 2] > > as comparison: > Rolls gel cell cycle life is more classic to what we see in most batteries > http://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/batteries/S2-1070GEL.pdf > [image: Inline image 3] > > or Full river DC400-6 > http://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/batteries/DC400-6 > [image: Inline image 1] > What am i missing or how do they do this? > thanks > Daniel > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 Ext. 500 <(707)%20923-2001> (office) > 707-206-5088 <(707)%20206-5088> (Cell) > From steve at surrette.com Thu Jan 4 13:30:52 2018 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 10:30:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GS battery use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hadn't seen the spec sheet of the GS battery... thanks. It's a Carbon battery with a Carbon additive to the negative plate. Generally and this of course depends on the manufacturer when you add carbon to the neg anode (plate) it increases the cycle life, and charge acceptance of the battery. It also makes it more resistive to hardened sulfation situations. The drawback, at least from what Rolls has found is when you do this you also increase the self discharge rate of the battery, they don't show this on their spec sheet... Rolls has been working on a carbon based battery for some time now, at least longer than I've been there... Eng, says they are still working the kinks out and finishing testing. We typically don't beta test product on customers. The draw back on that is we can be behind the new product release curve! Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Daniel Tittmann wrote: > forgot to include the link to the GS batteries. > > http://www.gsbattery.com/PDFs/SLR1000-2.pdf > > Thank you Steve for the information on the construction of the batteries > and how that affects cycle life. > Cheers- > Daniel > > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > daniel at greenwired.com > 707-923-2001 Ext. 500 (office) > 707-206-5088 (Cell) > > On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 10:49 AM, Daniel Tittmann > wrote: > > > I am reaching out to the group to see if there is any experience with GS > > batteries. Their cycle life graph is better than I have seen in any VRLA > > battery I have seen (see comparison below). I wanted to know if anyone > on > > here has used them and if so have you experienced the cycle life that > they > > are reporting. I am waiting for a reply from the manufacturer for more > > info as well. > > > > [image: Inline image 2] > > > > as comparison: > > Rolls gel cell cycle life is more classic to what we see in most > batteries > > http://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/batteries/S2-1070GEL.pdf > > [image: Inline image 3] > > > > or Full river DC400-6 > > http://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/batteries/DC400-6 > > [image: Inline image 1] > > What am i missing or how do they do this? > > thanks > > Daniel > > > > Daniel Tittmann > > CTO > > Greenwired > > www.greenwired.com > > daniel at greenwired.com > > 707-923-2001 Ext. 500 <(707)%20923-2001> (office) > > 707-206-5088 <(707)%20206-5088> (Cell) > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jan 4 15:45:33 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 12:45:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] GS battery use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <627637a5e984458d38fe9c8cc52a7307.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I have 2 systems on my hill here that have the Trojan Smart carbon and the regular Trojan. They both are flooded 2V 1100 AH batteries and I see, and my clients see no difference. The both are about 6 years old. They both have the ridiculously stupid 3 ports for each 2V to water. I did not spec this battery and wanted Surrette but..... Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Hadn't seen the spec sheet of the GS battery... thanks. > > It's a Carbon battery with a Carbon additive to the negative plate. > Generally and this of course depends on the manufacturer when you add > carbon to the neg anode (plate) it increases the cycle life, and charge > acceptance of the battery. It also makes it more resistive to hardened > sulfation situations. > > The drawback, at least from what Rolls has found is when you do this you > also increase the self discharge rate of the battery, they don't show this > on their spec sheet... > > Rolls has been working on a carbon based battery for some time now, at > least longer than I've been there... Eng, says they are still working the > kinks out and finishing testing. We typically don't beta test product on > customers. The draw back on that is we can be behind the new product > release curve! > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋠Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > <#UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Daniel Tittmann > wrote: > >> forgot to include the link to the GS batteries. >> >> http://www.gsbattery.com/PDFs/SLR1000-2.pdf >> >> Thank you Steve for the information on the construction of the batteries >> and how that affects cycle life. >> Cheers- >> Daniel >> >> >> Daniel Tittmann >> CTO >> Greenwired >> www.greenwired.com >> daniel at greenwired.com >> 707-923-2001 Ext. 500 (office) >> 707-206-5088 (Cell) >> >> On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 10:49 AM, Daniel Tittmann >> wrote: >> >> > I am reaching out to the group to see if there is any experience with >> GS >> > batteries. Their cycle life graph is better than I have seen in any >> VRLA >> > battery I have seen (see comparison below). I wanted to know if >> anyone >> on >> > here has used them and if so have you experienced the cycle life that >> they >> > are reporting. I am waiting for a reply from the manufacturer for >> more >> > info as well. >> > >> > [image: Inline image 2] >> > >> > as comparison: >> > Rolls gel cell cycle life is more classic to what we see in most >> batteries >> > http://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/batteries/S2-1070GEL.pdf >> > [image: Inline image 3] >> > >> > or Full river DC400-6 >> > http://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/batteries/DC400-6 >> > [image: Inline image 1] >> > What am i missing or how do they do this? >> > thanks >> > Daniel >> > >> > Daniel Tittmann >> > CTO >> > Greenwired >> > www.greenwired.com >> > daniel at greenwired.com >> > 707-923-2001 Ext. 500 <(707)%20923-2001> (office) >> > 707-206-5088 <(707)%20206-5088> (Cell) >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 13:35:05 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 10:35:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] blue planet batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3443226F-D822-4E95-BC09-FED0E1F800B7@gmail.com> While we are talking about batteries, Does anyone have any experience with the Blueplanet lithium for off grid? Do they communicate with the inverter system is a big question? thx jay peltz power From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 16:04:04 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2018 11:04:04 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] blue planet batteries Message-ID: JayOur office has done research on quit a gew batteries, the Blue Ion Blue Planets battery has been very good in our testing. Feel free to talk off listJerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: jay Date: 1/4/18 8:35 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] blue planet batteries While we are talking about batteries, Does anyone have any experience with the Blueplanet lithium for off grid? Do they communicate with the inverter system is a big question? thx jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 16:07:16 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2018 11:07:16 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] blue planet batteries Message-ID: JayNo there is no communication between the battery BMS and the inverterJerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: jay Date: 1/4/18 8:35 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] blue planet batteries While we are talking about batteries, Does anyone have any experience with the Blueplanet lithium for off grid? Do they communicate with the inverter system is a big question? thx jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jan 4 16:12:00 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:12:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] blue planet batteries In-Reply-To: <3443226F-D822-4E95-BC09-FED0E1F800B7@gmail.com> References: <3443226F-D822-4E95-BC09-FED0E1F800B7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7bef7e50ba271f2243291c6c4047a2af.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I almost became a dealer.... They wanted me to deal with sales tax and I like being able to decide that with AEE and Soligent. They do not communicate directly with the inverter/charger/Mppt. They appear robust enough to not need to. They work with anyone's existing system. They do have an App that gets you the SOC data. I did not see anything for SOL though. I could have missed that. They are not reasonably priced at this time in my opinion. I do like the 30LB blocks to build a 200+ LB enclosure. No heavy lifting. There is the, will they be there down the road? I like the SOC getting out to my Outback and Schneider systems to the web portals and this won't do it, yet. Staying too dry here for January! You Jay? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > While we are talking about batteries, > > Does anyone have any experience with the Blueplanet lithium for off grid? > > Do they communicate with the inverter system is a big question? > > thx > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From solarworks at gmail.com Thu Jan 4 16:31:13 2018 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:31:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] blue planet batteries In-Reply-To: <7bef7e50ba271f2243291c6c4047a2af.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <3443226F-D822-4E95-BC09-FED0E1F800B7@gmail.com> <7bef7e50ba271f2243291c6c4047a2af.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: Jay....We have done a couple of Blue Planet battery banks and are very pleased with the results as are our cutomers. We have a couple more on the books for the next couple months. They don't communicate with the inverter but they are fully monitor -able via the web and smart phone app or web browser. They are easy to install, an easy company to deal with and we plan to keep using them. Both of the jobs we have installed them on are Outback based inverters (one Radian and one FX) If they live up to their ratings it will be the last battery bank some of our customers will ever install. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 1:12 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > I almost became a dealer.... They wanted me to deal with sales tax and I > like being able to decide that with AEE and Soligent. > They do not communicate directly with the inverter/charger/Mppt. They > appear robust enough to not need to. They work with anyone's existing > system. > They do have an App that gets you the SOC data. I did not see anything for > SOL though. I could have missed that. > They are not reasonably priced at this time in my opinion. I do like the > 30LB blocks to build a 200+ LB enclosure. No heavy lifting. > There is the, will they be there down the road? I like the SOC getting out > to my Outback and Schneider systems to the web portals and this won't do > it, yet. > > Staying too dry here for January! You Jay? > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > > While we are talking about batteries, > > > > Does anyone have any experience with the Blueplanet lithium for off grid? > > > > Do they communicate with the inverter system is a big question? > > > > thx > > jay > > > > peltz power > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Jan 6 11:26:13 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2018 11:26:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] blue planet batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Will these work on Sunny Island systems? Thanks, Drake At 04:04 PM 1/4/2018, you wrote: > >JayOur office has done research on quit a gew batteries, the Blue >Ion Blue Planets battery has been very good in our testing. Feel >free to talk off listJerry > > >Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > >-------- Original message -------- >From: jay >Date: 1/4/18 8:35 AM (GMT-10:00) >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: [RE-wrenches] blue planet batteries > >While we are talking about batteries, > >Does anyone have any experience with the Blueplanet lithium for off grid? > >Do they communicate with the inverter system is a big question? > >thx >jay > >peltz power >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat Jan 6 12:54:19 2018 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 09:54:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] blue planet batteries In-Reply-To: <3443226F-D822-4E95-BC09-FED0E1F800B7@gmail.com> References: <3443226F-D822-4E95-BC09-FED0E1F800B7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <62e3cfac-bc60-0a21-d02a-53c0f1cc9e05@berkeleysolar.com> Looking at the info on-line, it does seem like you are going to need significantly more foot print for higher capacity systems. But had to laugh when I saw the note, "Ideal for Eco-Mansions". Hadn't heard that one before. On 1/4/2018 10:35 AM, jay wrote: > While we are talking about batteries, > > Does anyone have any experience with the Blueplanet lithium for off grid? > > Do they communicate with the inverter system is a big question? > > thx > jay > > peltz power From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Jan 6 13:03:01 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 10:03:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] blue planet batteries In-Reply-To: <20180106162621.D26F9105F1D@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180106162621.D26F9105F1D@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <70a4bd86bb59a4d65cfc750c1852e08f.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Since there are no coms to the system from the battery, the Blues will work with most any 48V nominal inverter/charger/mppts. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Will these work on Sunny Island systems? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > At 04:04 PM 1/4/2018, you wrote: > >> >>JayOur office has done research on quit a gew batteries, the Blue >>Ion Blue Planets battery has been very good in our testing. Feel >>free to talk off listJerry >> >> >>Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone >> >>-------- Original message -------- >>From: jay >>Date: 1/4/18 8:35 AM (GMT-10:00) >>To: RE-wrenches >>Subject: [RE-wrenches] blue planet batteries >> >>While we are talking about batteries, >> >>Does anyone have any experience with the Blueplanet lithium for off grid? >> >>Do they communicate with the inverter system is a big question? >> >>thx >>jay >> >>peltz power >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 6 14:03:54 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 11:03:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] blue planet batteries In-Reply-To: <20180106162623.E2AE51071A7@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180106162623.E2AE51071A7@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <41B67870-C428-43F3-B8E8-FCC19C9709F0@gmail.com> HI Drake, Here is the contact info for the western sales rep. She’s been very helpful and has provided manuals and answers to my questions. Ava Gibson | Regional Sales Manager Blue Planet Energy Systems | www.blueplanetenergy.com (415) 944-7966 Changing the way we power the world Jay peltz power > On Jan 6, 2018, at 8:26 AM, Drake wrote: > > Will these work on Sunny Island systems? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > At 04:04 PM 1/4/2018, you wrote: > >> >> JayOur office has done research on quit a gew batteries, the Blue Ion Blue Planets battery has been very good in our testing. Feel free to talk off listJerry >> >> >> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: jay >> Date: 1/4/18 8:35 AM (GMT-10:00) >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] blue planet batteries >> >> While we are talking about batteries, >> >> Does anyone have any experience with the Blueplanet lithium for off grid? >> >> Do they communicate with the inverter system is a big question? >> >> thx >> jay >> >> peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 03:44:13 2018 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 00:44:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Covering modules In-Reply-To: <00e701d37d11$a83359d0$f89a0d70$@solarwindworks.com> References: <00e701d37d11$a83359d0$f89a0d70$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: I agree with everyone's sentiment, I always felt a little insulted reading manufacturer's manuals and being told that covering modules was enough. It isn't. . . . Remove load. . .Open circuit in as many places as you have to. . hahahaha. On Dec 24, 2017 19:18, "Chris Worcester" wrote: Hi Jay, Years ago I had one Sunny Boy system needing looking at string to string, and covered them with multiple layers of blankets and tarps, only to get one heck of a jolt... short of a good primer paint and barbeque black top coat, I'll not waste the time, and know they are always treated as hot wires. Happy Holidays! Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 8:05 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Covering modules Hi All, happy holidays. I’m looking for any studies or data about the dangers of “covering modules” and assuming they are safe to work on. I have a group that I think is going to need some harder data than me telling them it’s not safe. Thanks Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From tump at swnl.net Mon Jan 8 14:54:43 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 14:54:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] for all you Aquion installers Message-ID: <231D0586-CDF4-4DB9-A701-846BA9E10400@swnl.net> http://aquionenergy.com/faqs/ We are coming out with the new improved, latest and greatest Aquion but if you are a former customer you are SCREWED. The ultimate in customer service and confidence. Should inspire lots of new buyers! Can I call you about supporting the old product? Unfortunately Aquion Energy can no longer support the old product in any way (phone, email, in person). While this is unfortunate, Aquion no longer has the resources or tools to do so. What is the status of the warranty on my old batteries? All of the warranties on existing Aquion products are now void. > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > From palumbo131m at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 19:13:50 2018 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 19:13:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GENERAC EcoGen 6kw problem Message-ID: <5a54093e.e31ac80a.744b3.b642@mx.google.com> I am troubleshooting a 6kw EcoGen LP gas generator in my neighborhood that starts quickly • but immediately shuts down with an “Under Voltage” shutdown alarm • I can clear shutdown alarm and restart with same result. I tried this a few times with same result. One of the start attempts included a back fire before shutting down. • Generator was recently run successfully for a few hours during a cold snap. Started after several attempts at -10 F. • According to the EcoGen manual this Under Voltage alarm is triggered “If the generator voltage falls below 85% of nominal for more than 15 seconds”. This definitely isn’t happening as the generator starts as usual but shuts down within one or two seconds. I will check for fouled spark plugs tomorrow. Anything else that might be the problem? David Palumbo Independent Power LLC Hyde Park, VT 802-371-8678 voice or text Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Jan 8 19:30:46 2018 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (maverick at mavericksolar.com) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 18:30:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GENERAC EcoGen 6kw problem In-Reply-To: <5a54093e.e31ac80a.744b3.b642@mx.google.com> References: <5a54093e.e31ac80a.744b3.b642@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Check to see if it’s programming matches its wired and expected voltage output configuration. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 8, 2018, at 6:13 PM, David Palumbo wrote: > > I am troubleshooting a 6kw EcoGen LP gas generator in my neighborhood that starts quickly > • but immediately shuts down with an “Under Voltage” shutdown alarm > • I can clear shutdown alarm and restart with same result. I tried this a few times with same result. One of the start attempts included a back fire before shutting down. > • Generator was recently run successfully for a few hours during a cold snap. Started after several attempts at -10 F. > • According to the EcoGen manual this Under Voltage alarm is triggered “If the generator voltage falls below 85% of nominal for more than 15 seconds”. This definitely isn’t happening as the generator starts as usual but shuts down within one or two seconds. > I will check for fouled spark plugs tomorrow. Anything else that might be the problem? > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > Hyde Park, VT > 802-371-8678 voice or text > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From palumbo131m at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 19:38:51 2018 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 19:38:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GENERAC EcoGen 6kw problem In-Reply-To: References: <5a54093e.e31ac80a.744b3.b642@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5a540f1b.353fc80a.5a5fc.b465@mx.google.com> Can the programming change on its own? I shut it off after it ran two days ago at my neighbors and no one touched it before I started it today. Neighbors are away and no footprints in new snow. Dave Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 7:30 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GENERAC EcoGen 6kw problem Check to see if it’s programming matches its wired and expected voltage output configuration. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 8, 2018, at 6:13 PM, David Palumbo wrote: > > I am troubleshooting a 6kw EcoGen LP gas generator in my neighborhood that starts quickly > • but immediately shuts down with an “Under Voltage” shutdown alarm > • I can clear shutdown alarm and restart with same result. I tried this a few times with same result. One of the start attempts included a back fire before shutting down. > • Generator was recently run successfully for a few hours during a cold snap. Started after several attempts at -10 F. > • According to the EcoGen manual this Under Voltage alarm is triggered “If the generator voltage falls below 85% of nominal for more than 15 seconds”. This definitely isn’t happening as the generator starts as usual but shuts down within one or two seconds. > I will check for fouled spark plugs tomorrow. Anything else that might be the problem? > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > Hyde Park, VT > 802-371-8678 voice or text > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From ray at solarray.com Mon Jan 8 22:54:32 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 20:54:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GENERAC EcoGen 6kw problem In-Reply-To: <5a540f1b.353fc80a.5a5fc.b465@mx.google.com> References: <5a54093e.e31ac80a.744b3.b642@mx.google.com> <5a540f1b.353fc80a.5a5fc.b465@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <946db5fc-c1b7-31b1-ee02-5ee977b34726@solarray.com> I recently had a frustrating generator trouble shoot that was similar, turned out to be a dirty air filter of all things.  Easy fix, but took a couple of hours to come to that conclusion....... Ray Remote Solar On 1/8/2018 5:38 PM, David Palumbo wrote: > Can the programming change on its own? I shut it off after it ran two days ago at my neighbors and no one touched it before I started it today. Neighbors are away and no footprints in new snow. > Dave > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: maverick at mavericksolar.com > Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 7:30 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GENERAC EcoGen 6kw problem > > Check to see if it’s programming matches its wired and expected voltage output configuration. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 8, 2018, at 6:13 PM, David Palumbo wrote: >> >> I am troubleshooting a 6kw EcoGen LP gas generator in my neighborhood that starts quickly >> • but immediately shuts down with an “Under Voltage” shutdown alarm >> • I can clear shutdown alarm and restart with same result. I tried this a few times with same result. One of the start attempts included a back fire before shutting down. >> • Generator was recently run successfully for a few hours during a cold snap. Started after several attempts at -10 F. >> • According to the EcoGen manual this Under Voltage alarm is triggered “If the generator voltage falls below 85% of nominal for more than 15 seconds”. This definitely isn’t happening as the generator starts as usual but shuts down within one or two seconds. >> I will check for fouled spark plugs tomorrow. Anything else that might be the problem? >> >> David Palumbo >> Independent Power LLC >> Hyde Park, VT >> 802-371-8678 voice or text >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dan at foxfire-energy.com Tue Jan 9 01:45:18 2018 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 23:45:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GENERAC EcoGen 6kw problem Message-ID: <20180108234518.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.8aad08686c.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> I remember seeing something similar, but can't remember fix.. Might have been low / wrong oil.. Maybe bad sensor.. Loose connection? maybe bad board.. Might want to check fuses.. Could be a sticky reg.. might be out of gas.. I have it on good authority 'The knees are not always the first to go'.. Good Luck. db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 [1]www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GENERAC EcoGen 6kw problem From: Ray <[2]ray at solarray.com> Date: Mon, January 08, 2018 10:54 pm To: [3]re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org I recently had a frustrating generator trouble shoot that was similar, turned out to be a dirty air filter of all things. Easy fix, but took a couple of hours to come to that conclusion....... Ray Remote Solar On 1/8/2018 5:38 PM, David Palumbo wrote: > Can the programming change on its own? I shut it off after it ran two days ago at my neighbors and no one touched it before I started it today. Neighbors are away and no footprints in new snow. > Dave > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: [4]maverick at mavericksolar.com > Sent: Monday, January 8, 2018 7:30 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GENERAC EcoGen 6kw problem > > Check to see if it’s programming matches its wired and expected voltage output configuration. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 8, 2018, at 6:13 PM, David Palumbo <[5]palumbo131m at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I am troubleshooting a 6kw EcoGen LP gas generator in my neighborhood that starts quickly >> • but immediately shuts down with an “Under Voltage” shutdown alarm >> • I can clear shutdown alarm and restart with same result. I tried this a few times with same result. One of the start attempts included a back fire before shutting down. >> • Generator was recently run successfully for a few hours during a cold snap. Started after several attempts at -10 F. >> • According to the EcoGen manual this Under Voltage alarm is triggered “If the generator voltage falls below 85% of nominal for more than 15 seconds”. This definitely isn’t happening as the generator starts as usual but shuts down within one or two seconds. >> I will check for fouled spark plugs tomorrow. Anything else that might be the problem? >> >> David Palumbo >> Independent Power LLC >> Hyde Park, VT >> 802-371-8678 voice or text >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: [6]RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> [7]http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: [8]http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/mailli st.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> [9]www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> [10]www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: [11]RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > [12]http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or g > > List-Archive: [13]http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maill ist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > [14]www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > [15]www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: [16]RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > [17]http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or g > > List-Archive: [18]http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maill ist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > [19]www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > [20]www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [21]RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: [22]http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or g List-Archive: [23]http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maill ist.html List rules & etiquette: [24]www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: [25]www.members.re-wrenches.org References 1. http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com/ 2. mailto:ray at solarray.com 3. mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org 4. mailto:maverick at mavericksolar.com 5. mailto:palumbo131m at gmail.com 6. mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org 7. http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 8. http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html 9. http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm 10. http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ 11. mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org 12. http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 13. http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html 14. http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm 15. http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ 16. mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org 17. http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 18. http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html 19. http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm 20. http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ 21. mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org 22. http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 23. http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html 24. http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm 25. http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Jan 9 02:39:59 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 21:39:59 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall and frequency shifting Message-ID: <010e01d3891d$0e527c20$2af77460$@com> Aloha all, I thought I’d share my experiences with the Tesla Powerwall on my own NEM system here on the Big Island of Hawaii. I added the PW to my existing NEM system (3.84 kW DC with Power-One micro inverters) about a month ago. I did so to have back-up power to my whole house in case of a grid outage. With the use of the Tesla Gateway, which acts as an automatic main disconnect of a max 200A utility service, the home effectively becomes a micro grid upon utility power going out. So what happens when the grid is down, the sun is out, the house loads are all being met and the Powerwall is full? The PW’s brain automatically shifts the frequency from the nominal 60 Hz to 66 Hz which causes the PV inverters to shut down and wait five minutes before trying to reconnect to the “grid.” I had my multimeter connected to an outlet and watched the frequency shift from 60 to 66 to 60 and so forth through the course of the day depending on loads, battery storage level and PV power being produced. Here in Hawaii, given the large amount of DG connected to our isolated island grids, the four utilities across the state (HECO, HELCO, MECO and KIUC) are all requiring new “advanced inverters” to be able to ride through high frequency conditions as high as 64 and 65 Hz before dropping offline. Hence the need for ability of the PW to go as high as 66 Hz to be able to shut down PV inverters. Another thing that’s worth noting is that certain appliances in the home are more sensitive to high frequency conditions. My microwave sounded kind of funny while operating at 66 Hz. Electronic clocks will run fast if the frequency is higher than nominal. Some washing machines will beep beep at high frequency conditions and so on. That said, I was able to do a load of laundry with both my electric washer and 240V dryer. As far as I know, though, none of these household appliances are damaged under this kind of high frequency condition. If any of you know otherwise, please let me know. What’s going to be interesting to see is whether there’s going to be much of a market for adding battery storage, like the Powerwall, to existing NEM systems that don’t have any storage and therefore don’t have the ability to provide back-up power if the grid goes down. And I’m wondering whether the experiences in Texas, Florida and especially Puerto Rico (where still about ½ of the island’s residents are without regular power) will bring the value of back-up power to more top of mind awareness. After all, we already pay for all kinds of insurances in our lives. I wonder if we’re at the point where we’re willing to pay for an insurance policy to keep the lights on in case the grid goed dark. marco From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 05:13:54 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 04:13:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GENERAC EcoGen 6kw problem In-Reply-To: <5a54093e.e31ac80a.744b3.b642@mx.google.com> References: <5a54093e.e31ac80a.744b3.b642@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hello David, I have had that problem on other generators. I have had similar problems not with an Eco gen but with a couple of other propane generator models. The problem occurs during cold weather. The problem was poor gas supply pressure and the problem was I could not convince anyone that was the problem until I demonstrated low pressure at the generator. (One of your early tests should be to remove the loads) At - 20 F propane has very low vapor pressure the root cause may be in any of 6 places or a combination of problems. How to diagnose if this is the problem. Go to the pressure regulator at the unit. (Unit pressure regulator not the zero pressure regulator) It is supposed to drop the pressure from 15 PSI or whatever it is to 6" to11" WC. Put a pressure gauge or manometer on the pressure tap of this regulator. Start the generator, does the pressure maintain? If the pressure drops below 6" WC the genny will not develop enough power to get up to speed and cut out on low voltage. (the engine is fuel starved) If the pressure maintains 6" or above check the throttle positioning motor. Be sure the throttle is free to operate and responds quickly. There also could be a problem with the zero pressure regulator. (see below) Fixing the problem. (I am going to try to attach a teaching unit I have developed for my advanced solar class) Propane systems in cold climates or exceptional temperature drops. The system consists of 1) Storage tank, 2) Storage tank regulator, 3) Supply line from the storage tank to the unit regulator, 4) Unit regulator, 5) Zero pressure regulator, 6) Throttle positioning motor/system. Of these potential problems, the two most common are the supply line from the tank to the unit regulator and unit regulator. 1) Storage Tank: the tank itself has to have sufficient volume to have enough evaporative surface supply the generator if the tank is too small the tank pressure drops on supplying the genny. (I recommend a larger than 250-gallon tank for generator installations). Also, low tank fill exacerbates this problem, the tank should be half full or more. Is the tank in a location where it can get some winter sun? In extreme climates I recommend the tank be buried. Can your tank be warmed in any way? 2) Tank Regulator: the pressure regulator at the tank reduces the tank pressure to a line pressure of 15 PSI during the summer. During the winter it reduces it to slightly below the tank pressure. The pressure drop of this regulator has never been a deciding factor. (only a minor contributor.) . 3) Line from Tank Regulator to Unit Regulator: the pressure drop in the line from the tank to the genny has often been a problem. Most Propane installers want to use 3/8" OD copper line from the tank regulator to the unit regulator. This is fine for the summer, it will have to big a pressure drop at gen run, but there is lots of pressure in the summer. I recommend a 5/8" inch OD copper line in all but the shortest of runs (where I use 1/2"OD) distances from the tank to the genny. This line should, of course, be buried. (I like 2 feet) this line has been one of my big problems. in that is the line to the generator being too small. The adequacy of the system to this point is tested by the pressure tap on the unit regulator. 4) Unit Regulator: In my experience, these will some tines stick either open or closed. This is the coldest point in the system and sometimes collect moisture. freezing in the winter. It does not sound like your problem. 5) good luck I am going to bed. the during warm weather this is not a problem only during cold weather the second regulator is at the generator which reduces the propane line pressure 2 about 11 inch water column this regulator I've had stick because it picks up a little bit of moisture and the pressures it is working with are very small. If the line is big enough if the regulator is not stuck or have a little bit of moisture overtime collecting it then the next place where the gas is regulated is that what I call a zero pressure regulator the zero pressure regulator drops the gas pressure to just about atmospheric when the carburetor (Venturi) passes air and Bernuli draws gas from the zero pressure regulator. On the engine starting they pressure drop due to Velocity induces gas in the engine these zero pressure regulators are also a potential problem the correct diagnosis is to put a pressure gauge on the fittings and regulators perhaps the easiest one is to put the pressure gauge you can use a manometer at the pressure reducing regulator at the generator measure that pressure it should be again about 15 psi in water column 11 in water On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 PM, David Palumbo wrote: > I am troubleshooting a 6kw EcoGen LP gas generator in my neighborhood that > starts quickly > • but immediately shuts down with an “Under Voltage” shutdown alarm > • I can clear shutdown alarm and restart with same result. I tried this a > few times with same result. One of the start attempts included a back fire > before shutting down. > • Generator was recently run successfully for a few hours during a cold > snap. Started after several attempts at -10 F. > • According to the EcoGen manual this Under Voltage alarm is triggered “If > the generator voltage falls below 85% of nominal for more than 15 > seconds”. This definitely isn’t happening as the generator starts as usual > but shuts down within one or two seconds. > I will check for fouled spark plugs tomorrow. Anything else that might be > the problem? > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > Hyde Park, VT > 802-371-8678 voice or text > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 06:42:13 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 06:42:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GENERAC EcoGen 6kw problem In-Reply-To: References: <5a54093e.e31ac80a.744b3.b642@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Dave, I had undervoltage on an eco-gen when the programming accidentally got changed to 240V when it is a 120V unit. John B. On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 5:13 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > Hello David, I have had that problem on other generators. > I have had similar problems not with an Eco gen but with a couple of other > propane generator models. The problem occurs during cold weather. The > problem was poor gas supply pressure and the problem was I could not > convince anyone that was the problem until I demonstrated low pressure at > the generator. (One of your early tests should be to remove the loads) > > At - 20 F propane has very low vapor pressure the root cause may be in any > of 6 places or a combination of problems. How to diagnose if this is the > problem. Go to the pressure regulator at the unit. (Unit pressure > regulator not the zero pressure regulator) It is supposed to drop the > pressure from 15 PSI or whatever it is to 6" to11" WC. Put a pressure > gauge or manometer on the pressure tap of this regulator. Start the > generator, does the pressure maintain? If the pressure drops below 6" WC > the genny will not develop enough power to get up to speed and cut out on > low voltage. (the engine is fuel starved) If the pressure maintains 6" or > above check the throttle positioning motor. Be sure the throttle is free > to operate and responds quickly. There also could be a problem with the > zero pressure regulator. (see below) > > Fixing the problem. (I am going to try to attach a teaching unit I have > developed for my advanced solar class) Propane systems in cold climates or > exceptional temperature drops. The system consists of 1) Storage tank, 2) > Storage tank regulator, 3) Supply line from the storage tank to the unit > regulator, 4) Unit regulator, 5) Zero pressure regulator, 6) Throttle > positioning motor/system. Of these potential problems, the two most common > are the supply line from the tank to the unit regulator and unit > regulator. > > 1) Storage Tank: the tank itself has to have sufficient volume to have > enough evaporative surface supply the generator if the tank is too small > the tank pressure drops on supplying the genny. (I recommend a larger than > 250-gallon tank for generator installations). Also, low tank fill > exacerbates this problem, the tank should be half full or more. Is the > tank in a location where it can get some winter sun? In extreme climates I > recommend the tank be buried. Can your tank be warmed in any way? > > 2) Tank Regulator: the pressure regulator at the tank reduces the tank > pressure to a line pressure of 15 PSI during the summer. During the winter > it reduces it to slightly below the tank pressure. The pressure drop of > this regulator has never been a deciding factor. (only a minor > contributor.) . > > 3) Line from Tank Regulator to Unit Regulator: the pressure drop in the > line from the tank to the genny has often been a problem. Most Propane > installers want to use 3/8" OD copper line from the tank regulator to the > unit regulator. This is fine for the summer, it will have to big a > pressure drop at gen run, but there is lots of pressure in the summer. I > recommend a 5/8" inch OD copper line in all but the shortest of runs (where > I use 1/2"OD) distances from the tank to the genny. This line should, of > course, be buried. (I like 2 feet) this line has been one of my big > problems. in that is the line to the generator being too small. The > adequacy of the system to this point is tested by the pressure tap on the > unit regulator. > > 4) Unit Regulator: In my experience, these will some tines stick either > open or closed. This is the coldest point in the system and sometimes > collect moisture. freezing in the winter. It does not sound like your > problem. > > 5) good luck I am going to bed. > the during warm weather this is not a problem only during cold weather the > second regulator is at the generator which reduces the propane line > pressure 2 about 11 inch water column this regulator I've had stick because > it picks up a little bit of moisture and the pressures it is working with > are very small. If the line is big enough if the regulator is not stuck or > have a little bit of moisture overtime collecting it then the next place > where the gas is regulated is that what I call a zero pressure regulator > the zero pressure regulator drops the gas pressure to just about > atmospheric when the carburetor (Venturi) passes air and Bernuli draws gas > from the zero pressure regulator. On the engine starting they pressure drop > due to Velocity induces gas in the engine these zero pressure regulators > are also a potential problem the correct diagnosis is to put a pressure > gauge on the fittings and regulators perhaps the easiest one is to put the > pressure gauge you can use a manometer at the pressure reducing regulator > at the generator measure that pressure it should be again about 15 psi in > water column 11 in water > > > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 PM, David Palumbo > wrote: > > > I am troubleshooting a 6kw EcoGen LP gas generator in my neighborhood > that > > starts quickly > > • but immediately shuts down with an “Under Voltage” shutdown alarm > > • I can clear shutdown alarm and restart with same result. I tried this a > > few times with same result. One of the start attempts included a back > fire > > before shutting down. > > • Generator was recently run successfully for a few hours during a cold > > snap. Started after several attempts at -10 F. > > • According to the EcoGen manual this Under Voltage alarm is triggered > “If > > the generator voltage falls below 85% of nominal for more than 15 > > seconds”. This definitely isn’t happening as the generator starts as > usual > > but shuts down within one or two seconds. > > I will check for fouled spark plugs tomorrow. Anything else that might be > > the problem? > > > > David Palumbo > > Independent Power LLC > > Hyde Park, VT > > 802-371-8678 voice or text > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 15:35:43 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 16:35:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GENERAC EcoGen 6kw problem In-Reply-To: <5a54093e.e31ac80a.744b3.b642@mx.google.com> References: <5a54093e.e31ac80a.744b3.b642@mx.google.com> Message-ID: If the unit is still under warranty, have any Generac dealer run through the diagnostics. The testing flow suggests rotor or stator problems, and there is a proscribed testing flow that needs to be performed. If it is determined to be a warranty issue, it will be fixed for you at no cost. If it is not under warranty, I would still have a dealer look at it. There are a large number of possible issues and you are going to spend a lot of time trying to find the problem. A Generac tech will likely find the problem in a few minutes unless it is a serious problem, in which case you were never going to find it. I'm a Generac tech so I can speak from some experience that this is likely not a simple issue. On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 8:13 PM, David Palumbo wrote: > I am troubleshooting a 6kw EcoGen LP gas generator in my neighborhood that > starts quickly > • but immediately shuts down with an “Under Voltage” shutdown alarm > • I can clear shutdown alarm and restart with same result. I tried this a > few times with same result. One of the start attempts included a back fire > before shutting down. > • Generator was recently run successfully for a few hours during a cold > snap. Started after several attempts at -10 F. > • According to the EcoGen manual this Under Voltage alarm is triggered “If > the generator voltage falls below 85% of nominal for more than 15 > seconds”. This definitely isn’t happening as the generator starts as usual > but shuts down within one or two seconds. > I will check for fouled spark plugs tomorrow. Anything else that might be > the problem? > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > Hyde Park, VT > 802-371-8678 voice or text > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts From palumbo131m at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 16:18:52 2018 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (palumbo131m at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 16:18:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GENERAC EcoGen 6kw problem In-Reply-To: References: <5a54093e.e31ac80a.744b3.b642@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5A1C98D9-5F93-4EDE-8BAE-B3F607F6DAA7@gmail.com> Thank you all for your help. Ray gets the gold star long distance diagnostics award as it was simply a thin layer of ice underneath the air cleaner. I cleared that out and it started right up and ran in good shape. Dave Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 9, 2018, at 3:35 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > > If the unit is still under warranty, have any Generac dealer run through > the diagnostics. The testing flow suggests rotor or stator problems, and > there is a proscribed testing flow that needs to be performed. If it is > determined to be a warranty issue, it will be fixed for you at no cost. > If it is not under warranty, I would still have a dealer look at it. There > are a large number of possible issues and you are going to spend a lot of > time trying to find the problem. A Generac tech will likely find the > problem in a few minutes unless it is a serious problem, in which case you > were never going to find it. > I'm a Generac tech so I can speak from some experience that this is likely > not a simple issue. > >> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 8:13 PM, David Palumbo wrote: >> >> I am troubleshooting a 6kw EcoGen LP gas generator in my neighborhood that >> starts quickly >> • but immediately shuts down with an “Under Voltage” shutdown alarm >> • I can clear shutdown alarm and restart with same result. I tried this a >> few times with same result. One of the start attempts included a back fire >> before shutting down. >> • Generator was recently run successfully for a few hours during a cold >> snap. Started after several attempts at -10 F. >> • According to the EcoGen manual this Under Voltage alarm is triggered “If >> the generator voltage falls below 85% of nominal for more than 15 >> seconds”. This definitely isn’t happening as the generator starts as usual >> but shuts down within one or two seconds. >> I will check for fouled spark plugs tomorrow. Anything else that might be >> the problem? >> >> David Palumbo >> Independent Power LLC >> Hyde Park, VT >> 802-371-8678 voice or text >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From solar1online at charter.net Tue Jan 9 18:53:59 2018 From: solar1online at charter.net (solar1online at charter.net) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2018 17:53:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GENERAC EcoGen 6kw problem Message-ID: Wrenches, Kudos to Ray for "getting down to basics" May I suggest that my own observations are that a comprehensive visual inspection of the affected component can be the most valuable time spent diagnosing a problem. Recently I was called in after five other techs had "looked" at the power vented tank water heater and replaced numerous parts, all to no avail. Simply looking at the installation under operation revealed that condensate was not properly being drained from the heater. All the onboard diagnostics could never have recognized what a simple visual inspection offered. RTFM, understand what you have read and execute those instructions to the letter. The end result,whether if be for water or electric is a trouble free installation. An installation that brings you more business and produces a happy customer. Respectfully, Bill Loesch Solar 1 314 631 1094 -----------------------------------------From: palumbo131m at gmail.com To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: 09-Jan-2018 21:19:00 +0000 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GENERAC EcoGen 6kw problem Thank you all for your help. Ray gets the gold star long distance diagnostics award as it was simply a thin layer of ice underneath the air cleaner. I cleared that out and it started right up and ran in good shape. Dave Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 9, 2018, at 3:35 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > > If the unit is still under warranty, have any Generac dealer run through > the diagnostics. The testing flow suggests rotor or stator problems, and > there is a proscribed testing flow that needs to be performed. If it is > determined to be a warranty issue, it will be fixed for you at no cost. > If it is not under warranty, I would still have a dealer look at it. There > are a large number of possible issues and you are going to spend a lot of > time trying to find the problem. A Generac tech will likely find the > problem in a few minutes unless it is a serious problem, in which case you > were never going to find it. > I'm a Generac tech so I can speak from some experience that this is likely > not a simple issue. > >> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 8:13 PM, David Palumbo wrote: >> >> I am troubleshooting a 6kw EcoGen LP gas generator in my neighborhood that >> starts quickly >> • but immediately shuts down with an “Under Voltage” shutdown alarm >> • I can clear shutdown alarm and restart with same result. I tried this a >> few times with same result. One of the start attempts included a back fire >> before shutting down. >> • Generator was recently run successfully for a few hours during a cold >> snap. Started after several attempts at -10 F. >> • According to the EcoGen manual this Under Voltage alarm is triggered “If >> the generator voltage falls below 85% of nominal for more than 15 >> seconds”. This definitely isn’t happening as the generator starts as usual >> but shuts down within one or two seconds. >> I will check for fouled spark plugs tomorrow. Anything else that might be >> the problem? >> >> David Palumbo >> Independent Power LLC >> Hyde Park, VT >> 802-371-8678 voice or text >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://www.cometenergysystems.com [1]> > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org /> >> >> List-Archive: Hi Folks: Anyone got a pair of Shell SM110-24P (72 cell modules) available? If so, please contact me off list. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From ray at solarray.com Thu Jan 11 00:18:44 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 22:18:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire management with S5! Railless System Message-ID: <07a165be-ed52-ce5d-47c2-970a3655c1a0@solarray.com> Hi All; I was wondering what folks were doing these days for wire management on Standing seam roofs with the S5! clamps and no rails. I'm at a loss (once again) for how to secure the home runs without a rail.  I have some of those module edge clips, but those only hold one wire, and I've had them slip off (wire dangling visible from ground.) Also most suppliers seem to only carry the universal S5! clamps, but I have found those to really bend up the metal on certain types of standing seam roofs.  I wanted to order the recommended model for the particular roof.  AEE quit carrying S5 altogether. Give me your Standing seam wisdom. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar From william at millersolar.com Thu Jan 11 00:54:17 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 21:54:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire management with S5! Railless System In-Reply-To: <07a165be-ed52-ce5d-47c2-970a3655c1a0@solarray.com> References: <07a165be-ed52-ce5d-47c2-970a3655c1a0@solarray.com> Message-ID: <7C3054EA-6B98-41B8-AB87-0E044936B8DC@millersolar.com> Ray: After you find clips that make you happy, order more of them to mount your preferred raceway to the roof and dress your leads in it. We like strut with closure strips. You may have clearance issues fitting raceway if the panels are too close to the roof. You could remedy that by using rail. With the right rail, you need little in the way of raceway. We just closed the logic loop. Your welcome. William > On Jan 10, 2018, at 9:18 PM, Ray wrote: > > Hi All; > > I was wondering what folks were doing these days for wire management on Standing seam roofs with the S5! clamps and no rails. I'm at a loss (once again) for how to secure the home runs without a rail. I have some of those module edge clips, but those only hold one wire, and I've had them slip off (wire dangling visible from ground.) > Also most suppliers seem to only carry the universal S5! clamps, but I have found those to really bend up the metal on certain types of standing seam roofs. I wanted to order the recommended model for the particular roof. AEE quit carrying S5 altogether. > Give me your Standing seam wisdom. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jamie.greenwired at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 11:26:20 2018 From: jamie.greenwired at gmail.com (Jamie Rennie) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 08:26:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire management with S5! Railless System In-Reply-To: <07a165be-ed52-ce5d-47c2-970a3655c1a0@solarray.com> References: <07a165be-ed52-ce5d-47c2-970a3655c1a0@solarray.com> Message-ID: Wire management on railess systems is a challenge. In the past I have tried to do as much of the wire management as possible before laying the panels by zip tying the leads to the side of panels and strategizing string routes. Also used flat trays like this for home runs: http://www.raytraysolar.com/ There are lots of creative ways to use the S-5 attachment to run home runs or install straps at key places. S-5 people are really helpful if you send them a pick of your roof. We get ours from Soligent. On Jan 10, 2018 9:17 PM, "Ray" wrote: > Hi All; > > I was wondering what folks were doing these days for wire management on > Standing seam roofs with the S5! clamps and no rails. I'm at a loss (once > again) for how to secure the home runs without a rail. I have some of > those module edge clips, but those only hold one wire, and I've had them > slip off (wire dangling visible from ground.) > Also most suppliers seem to only carry the universal S5! clamps, but I > have found those to really bend up the metal on certain types of standing > seam roofs. I wanted to order the recommended model for the particular > roof. AEE quit carrying S5 altogether. > Give me your Standing seam wisdom. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 10:36:02 2018 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 07:36:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire management with S5! Railless System In-Reply-To: <07a165be-ed52-ce5d-47c2-970a3655c1a0@solarray.com> References: <07a165be-ed52-ce5d-47c2-970a3655c1a0@solarray.com> Message-ID: <4205F985-BB41-471F-9392-C158EF90B51F@gmail.com> I would use rails with the s-5, gives you something to attach wires to. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Jan 10, 2018, at 9:18 PM, Ray wrote: > > Hi All; > > I was wondering what folks were doing these days for wire management on Standing seam roofs with the S5! clamps and no rails. I'm at a loss (once again) for how to secure the home runs without a rail. I have some of those module edge clips, but those only hold one wire, and I've had them slip off (wire dangling visible from ground.) > Also most suppliers seem to only carry the universal S5! clamps, but I have found those to really bend up the metal on certain types of standing seam roofs. I wanted to order the recommended model for the particular roof. AEE quit carrying S5 altogether. > Give me your Standing seam wisdom. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 10:58:05 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 07:58:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire management with S5! Railless System In-Reply-To: <07a165be-ed52-ce5d-47c2-970a3655c1a0@solarray.com> References: <07a165be-ed52-ce5d-47c2-970a3655c1a0@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray Here are a ton of newer clips that carry 2-many wires, in different configurations, straight, 90 degree etc Most in SS some now in synthetic. And yea it’s kind of a pain with that type racking. Talk to Bryan at PV cables, he stocks lots of them. 707-923-3000 Jay Peltz power > On Jan 10, 2018, at 9:18 PM, Ray wrote: > > Hi All; > > I was wondering what folks were doing these days for wire management on Standing seam roofs with the S5! clamps and no rails. I'm at a loss (once again) for how to secure the home runs without a rail. I have some of those module edge clips, but those only hold one wire, and I've had them slip off (wire dangling visible from ground.) > Also most suppliers seem to only carry the universal S5! clamps, but I have found those to really bend up the metal on certain types of standing seam roofs. I wanted to order the recommended model for the particular roof. AEE quit carrying S5 altogether. > Give me your Standing seam wisdom. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From hiltondier at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 15:18:27 2018 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 15:18:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire management with S5! Railless System Message-ID: <7DC1E0A4-2186-4672-ACF6-4993C70EAE8E@gmail.com> Add my voice to the “never without rails” chorus. 1) S-5 clamps are only as good as the standing seam they are on. At least rails spread out the stresses and avoid large point loads. 2) Ice likes to slide. Rails give some height above that. 3) Rail height gives better ventilation and hot weather performance. 4) Module width is never an even multiple of roofing pan width. No rails means inevitably some modules will be “diving boards.” 5) Without rails, getting the modules to an even height is a giant PITA. Takes forever. I did it once and never again. Best Hilton Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From august at luminalt.com Thu Jan 11 15:45:04 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 12:45:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire management with S5! Railless System In-Reply-To: <07a165be-ed52-ce5d-47c2-970a3655c1a0@solarray.com> References: <07a165be-ed52-ce5d-47c2-970a3655c1a0@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray - I agree with the others that S5 clamps with rails is the way to go on standing seam roofs. We buy our S5 clamps through LMCurbs and I've found their pricing and service to be good: http://www.lmcurbs.com/ We go though a good deal of effort to determine the exact standing seam make/model and then procure the S5 clamps that are specifically designed for the roof. Even then, sometimes the seams need to be compressed a bit to slip the clamp over. You can squeeze the seams with a large pair of channel locks with a piece or cardboard to protect the channel lock teeth from marring the metal standing seam coating. If you still need to run PV wires along modules frames without rails, HellermannTyton might make a product that will work for you: http://www.hellermanntyton.us/industry.aspx?id=3132 You might be able to get a solar sampler kit from them to find a good fit. Best, August Luminalt On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 9:18 PM, Ray wrote: > Hi All; > > I was wondering what folks were doing these days for wire management on > Standing seam roofs with the S5! clamps and no rails. I'm at a loss (once > again) for how to secure the home runs without a rail. I have some of > those module edge clips, but those only hold one wire, and I've had them > slip off (wire dangling visible from ground.) > Also most suppliers seem to only carry the universal S5! clamps, but I > have found those to really bend up the metal on certain types of standing > seam roofs. I wanted to order the recommended model for the particular > roof. AEE quit carrying S5 altogether. > Give me your Standing seam wisdom. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Jan 11 16:18:27 2018 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 13:18:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] This is as admin test message, please do not respond Message-ID: Hi gang. I'm still testing file attachments, please do not respond. Sorry to bother you with these, but getting this figured out is important. From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Jan 11 16:40:19 2018 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 13:40:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] This is as admin test message, please do not respond Message-ID: Hi gang. Yet another test, please do not respond. Sorry to bother you with these, but getting this figured out is important. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Pergola.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 337534 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Thu Jan 11 16:45:42 2018 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 21:45:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Darfon hybrid inverters References: <1306028281.1158216.1515707142707.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1306028281.1158216.1515707142707@mail.yahoo.com> Hi folks--Does anyone have contact info for Darfon inverters? I've sent emails and called their website number, but the phone rings and then disconnects. We were interested in their H5000/5001 series inverters--they look good on the internet. Anyone know if these are actual products that will be released soon? Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Jan 11 17:04:16 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 17:04:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire management with S5! Railless System In-Reply-To: References: <07a165be-ed52-ce5d-47c2-970a3655c1a0@solarray.com> Message-ID: We have found that the SnapNrack rails and using the SnapNrack Wide Base Seam Clamp w/L-Foot, 242-05151 is priced right and has fewer hassles then the older S5s. Wire management also has been addressed by SnapNrack > On Jan 11, 2018, at 3:45 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Ray - I agree with the others that S5 clamps with rails is the way to go on > standing seam roofs. We buy our S5 clamps through LMCurbs and I've found > their pricing and service to be good: http://www.lmcurbs.com/ > > We go though a good deal of effort to determine the exact standing seam > make/model and then procure the S5 clamps that are specifically designed > for the roof. Even then, sometimes the seams need to be compressed a bit to > slip the clamp over. You can squeeze the seams with a large pair of channel > locks with a piece or cardboard to protect the channel lock teeth from > marring the metal standing seam coating. > > If you still need to run PV wires along modules frames without rails, > HellermannTyton might make a product that will work for you: > http://www.hellermanntyton.us/industry.aspx?id=3132 > You might be able to get a solar sampler kit from them to find a good fit. > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > > > On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 9:18 PM, Ray wrote: > >> Hi All; >> >> I was wondering what folks were doing these days for wire management on >> Standing seam roofs with the S5! clamps and no rails. I'm at a loss (once >> again) for how to secure the home runs without a rail. I have some of >> those module edge clips, but those only hold one wire, and I've had them >> slip off (wire dangling visible from ground.) >> Also most suppliers seem to only carry the universal S5! clamps, but I >> have found those to really bend up the metal on certain types of standing >> seam roofs. I wanted to order the recommended model for the particular >> roof. AEE quit carrying S5 altogether. >> Give me your Standing seam wisdom. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or >> g/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Thu Jan 11 17:13:55 2018 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 15:13:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunflower - Energy Innovations Message-ID: Wrenches, Just had a company reach out and ask if we could fix an Energy Innovations Sunflower CPV system. Their contractor has gone out of business as well as Energy Innovations (go figure). I said NO WAY but, thought I would ask on his behalf if any of you knows if someone bought their IP and can offer repair services for him. Thanks! Chad Waits President/Owner ­ Net Zero Solar 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Office: 520-207-4053 Cell: 520-270-4873 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Transparent-Logo Signature[1][48].png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Thu Jan 11 18:22:17 2018 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 16:22:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Darfon hybrid inverters Message-ID: Bill asked this: Hi folks--Does anyone have contact info for Darfon inverters? I've sent emails and called their website number, but the phone rings and then disconnects. We were interested in their H5000/5001 series inverters--they look good on the internet. Anyone know if these are actual products that will be released soon? Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 <(610)%20682-4300> c 484 560 4666 <(484)%20560-4666> NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com Mick here suggests: I think Moore Energy (sister company to PV Racking) is distributing this line out of Southampton, PA & I think they have the DC coupled hybrids now. The AC coupled version hybrid is still a ways out but the microinverter line is shipping now. (646) 520 7673 Jing Yu is the sales lady jingy at mooreenergy.net I've not sold any or installed any of these. "I have everything I need except customers," but the specs look interesting. Be sure to report back if you get some field experience with this. Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikek at spiritsolar.net Thu Jan 11 19:03:03 2018 From: mikek at spiritsolar.net (Mike Kocsmiersky) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 00:03:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wire management with S5! Railless System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <956392365.1207035.1515715383585@mail.yahoo.com> In the past I determined that anything above a 4 pitch on standing seam roofs would require rails.  Just too difficult otherwise.  I would recommend the use of rails all the time however on larger systems, there can be significant added cost.  Because the seams don't align as a perfect multiple of the module length or width, you do end up having some modules with a greater spacing between supports than perhaps the module spec sheet requires.  Additionally I have found that for multiple home run strings, a stainless steel retaining clip dunked in rubber (mfg that way), is a good way to bundle the wires.  Even better is to use a flexible conduit with a slit to run the home run wiring up / across under the array, where the conduit supports are on S-5 clips.  Sorry don't have access to pictures at the moment.Mike KocsmierskySpirit Solar From: "re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org" To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 3:43 PM Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 11, Issue 13 Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to     re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org You can reach the person managing the list at     re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. Today's Topics:   1. Wire management with S5! Railless System (Hilton Dier)   2. Re: Wire management with S5! Railless System (August Goers)   3. This is as admin test message, please do not respond       (Michael Welch)   4. This is as admin test message, please do not respond       (Michael Welch) Add my voice to the “never without rails” chorus. 1) S-5 clamps are only as good as the standing seam they are on. At least rails spread out the stresses and avoid large point loads. 2) Ice likes to slide. Rails give some height above that. 3) Rail height gives better ventilation and hot weather performance. 4) Module width is never an even multiple of roofing pan width. No rails means inevitably some modules will be “diving boards.” 5) Without rails, getting the modules to an even height is a giant PITA. Takes forever. I did it once and never again. Best Hilton Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC Ray - I agree with the others that S5 clamps with rails is the way to go on standing seam roofs. We buy our S5 clamps through LMCurbs and I've found their pricing and service to be good: http://www.lmcurbs.com/ We go though a good deal of effort to determine the exact standing seam make/model and then procure the S5 clamps that are specifically designed for the roof. Even then, sometimes the seams need to be compressed a bit to slip the clamp over. You can squeeze the seams with a large pair of channel locks with a piece or cardboard to protect the channel lock teeth from marring the metal standing seam coating. If you still need to run PV wires along modules frames without rails, HellermannTyton might make a product that will work for you: http://www.hellermanntyton.us/industry.aspx?id=3132 You might be able to get a solar sampler kit from them to find a good fit. Best, August Luminalt On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 9:18 PM, Ray wrote: > Hi All; > > I was wondering what folks were doing these days for wire management on > Standing seam roofs with the S5! clamps and no rails. I'm at a loss (once > again) for how to secure the home runs without a rail.  I have some of > those module edge clips, but those only hold one wire, and I've had them > slip off (wire dangling visible from ground.) > Also most suppliers seem to only carry the universal S5! clamps, but I > have found those to really bend up the metal on certain types of standing > seam roofs.  I wanted to order the recommended model for the particular > roof.  AEE quit carrying S5 altogether. > Give me your Standing seam wisdom. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Hi gang. I'm still testing file attachments, please do not respond. Sorry to bother you with these, but getting this figured out is important. Hi gang. Yet another test, please do not respond. Sorry to bother you with these, but getting this figured out is important. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Jan 11 19:14:30 2018 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 16:14:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Administrative stuff In-Reply-To: <20180104014441.C92B810608A@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180104014441.C92B810608A@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hi gang. Contact me off list with any questions or concerns. We've finally got our file attachment problem at least kinda sorta worked out. When attaching files, consider the following: 1. The maximum message size (includes headers, message body, and attachments) is 2 megabytes, and the smaller the better for our friends with slower Internet connections. 2. Please ATTACH your images etc. rather than embedding them within the text. That ensures that ALL email programs will be able to easily view the images. 3. Fixing this has disabled some content filtering, making sending spam and viruses to the list just a little bit easier. So please be cautious with links you click and that sort of thing, to keep your computers as free as possible of viruses and to make sure you don't accidentally get phished. Thanks for your patience, friends. From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 18:03:14 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 15:03:14 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] automatic transfer switch Message-ID: HI all, I’m doing a project with 2 radians in a redundant configuration. Each one would go into a transfer switch to power the common load. I’m looking for a good, fast transfer switch. 30amp 120/240 is fine. And maybe a mechanical feature as well. Code isn’t an issue Will be off grid, remote mexico. There is the Iota of course, but was just looking for options. thx in advance, jay peltz power From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Thu Jan 11 20:54:27 2018 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 01:54:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding generators to PV systems Message-ID: Hello All, We have several customers adding generators to their homes on which we have previously installed PV systems. Historically most generators didn't produce a clean enough 60Hz sinewave to get the inverters to feed back. However, with the generator technology improving and the introduction of inverter generators, I'm concerned that if the inverters feed back to the generator it will smoke the stator. I'm wondering if any of you have any experience/issues? If so, what solutions or recommendations do you have? Thanks, Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Jan 12 05:44:45 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 05:44:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding generators to PV systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1BFF1E9C-AB22-4CFF-84AA-14ACB82A156C@swnl.net> 2 suggestions; the first is installing the GT inverter output on the utility side of the T switch ( Manu’s recommended spot) . The second is have the generator tech set the frequency a bit lower then 59.5 Hz. (57-58 Hz.) which is usually the lower spot where the GT inverters will latch on and begin to output. Make sure that this setting is noted on the generator so the next tech will leave it at this setting. > On Jan 11, 2018, at 8:54 PM, Wayne Irwin wrote: > > Hello All, > > We have several customers adding generators to their homes on which we have previously installed PV systems. > Historically most generators didn't produce a clean enough 60Hz sinewave to get the inverters to feed back. > However, with the generator technology improving and the introduction of inverter generators, I'm concerned that if the inverters feed back to the generator it will smoke the stator. > > I'm wondering if any of you have any experience/issues? If so, what solutions or recommendations do you have? > > Thanks, > > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 08:35:35 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 06:35:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding generators to PV systems In-Reply-To: <1BFF1E9C-AB22-4CFF-84AA-14ACB82A156C@swnl.net> References: <1BFF1E9C-AB22-4CFF-84AA-14ACB82A156C@swnl.net> Message-ID: Hi Wayne, As Tump suggested, getting the solar out of the load center served by the generator is a great way to go. You can also do a relay that opens the solar circuit in the event the generator is operating. Another option that I've used is Generac's Smart Management Module (SMM). These are designed to be load management relays and shed when frequency is dipping under load. However they can also be used to lock out loads during generator operation. I haven't used them for non-Generac generators but I suspect they would work fine. They don't require any communication, the logic is based on the waveform getting sent to the load so they can be situated far away from the transfer switch and generator. On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 3:44 AM, Tump wrote: > 2 suggestions; the first is installing the GT inverter output on the > utility side of the T switch > ( Manu’s recommended spot) > . The second is have the generator tech set the frequency a bit lower then > 59.5 Hz. (57-58 Hz.) which is usually the lower spot where the GT inverters > will latch on and begin to output. Make sure that this setting is noted on > the generator so the next tech will leave it at this setting. > > On Jan 11, 2018, at 8:54 PM, Wayne Irwin > wrote: > > Hello All, > > We have several customers adding generators to their homes on which we > have previously installed PV systems. > Historically most generators didn't produce a clean enough 60Hz sinewave > to get the inverters to feed back. > However, with the generator technology improving and the introduction of > inverter generators, I'm concerned that if the inverters feed back to the > generator it will smoke the stator. > > I'm wondering if any of you have any experience/issues? If so, what > solutions or recommendations do you have? > > > Thanks, > > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 <(352)%20377-6527> Office > 352 336-3299 <(352)%20336-3299> Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists. > re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 <(207)%20832-7574> Cl. > 610-517-8401 <(610)%20517-8401> * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jan 12 11:28:00 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 08:28:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunflower - Energy Innovations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <81b87083742b8d3f6aa75b3077c7246d.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> What a surprise... A mechanical nightmare from Sunflower. On a similar note Array Technology use to make the AZ 125 which was a totally reliable tracker on a 6 inch pole about 125 sqft of solar. I have some from 15 years that have never needed anything but a squirt of grease. The still make the AZ 250 but it's 8 inch pole is pretty hard to get into remote hilly places. Their HZLA is great also but not easy on some hill. Anyone see a good single axis pole mount out there? I keep hoping as my stock of the old Wattsuns/Array Technology is down to one? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Wrenches, > > Just had a company reach out and ask if we could fix an Energy Innovations > Sunflower CPV system. Their contractor has gone out of business as well as > Energy Innovations (go figure). I said NO WAY but, thought I would ask on > his behalf if any of you knows if someone bought their IP and can offer > repair services for him. > > Thanks! > > Chad Waits > President/Owner ­ Net Zero Solar > 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 > Office: 520-207-4053 > Cell: 520-270-4873 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 18:00:26 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 13:00:26 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding generators to PV systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wayne We will not connect a grid tie inverter down stream of a gen-set, you don't want the inverter attempting to connect, when it comes right down to it, Why would you want to it would be a very small micro grid that if and when the demand is less then the inverter output would be then the gen-set would produce no power, volts yes amps no, then the volts climb the inverter discos and bam the genny has to make it all up. We have 8 k to 250 k gennys and PV systems attached all are upstream or in switches to turn them off. Jerry On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 3:54 PM, Wayne Irwin wrote: > Hello All, > > > We have several customers adding generators to their homes on which we > have previously installed PV systems. > > Historically most generators didn't produce a clean enough 60Hz sinewave > to get the inverters to feed back. > > However, with the generator technology improving and the introduction of > inverter generators, I'm concerned that if the inverters feed back to the > generator it will smoke the stator. > > > I'm wondering if any of you have any experience/issues? If so, what > solutions or recommendations do you have? > > > Thanks, > > > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 <(352)%20377-6527> Office > 352 336-3299 <(352)%20336-3299> Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reosolar at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 18:06:17 2018 From: reosolar at gmail.com (Aaron Mandelkorn) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 16:06:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding generators to PV systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We do these all the time. Relocation of the pv input from the load center to the utility side of the generator transfer switch has always been our solution. Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 On Jan 12, 2018 4:00 PM, "Jerry Shafer" wrote: > Wayne > We will not connect a grid tie inverter down stream of a gen-set, you > don't want the inverter attempting to connect, when it comes right down to > it, Why would you want to it would be a very small micro grid that if and > when the demand is less then the inverter output would be then the gen-set > would produce no power, volts yes amps no, then the volts climb the > inverter discos and bam the genny has to make it all up. We have 8 k to 250 > k gennys and PV systems attached all are upstream or in switches to turn > them off. > Jerry > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 3:54 PM, Wayne Irwin > wrote: > >> Hello All, >> >> >> We have several customers adding generators to their homes on which we >> have previously installed PV systems. >> >> Historically most generators didn't produce a clean enough 60Hz sinewave >> to get the inverters to feed back. >> >> However, with the generator technology improving and the introduction of >> inverter generators, I'm concerned that if the inverters feed back to the >> generator it will smoke the stator. >> >> >> I'm wondering if any of you have any experience/issues? If so, what >> solutions or recommendations do you have? >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Wayne Irwin, >> President >> License #CVC56695 >> State Licensed Solar Contractor >> Pure Energy Solar International Inc. >> Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com >> http://PureEnergySolar.com >> http://SolarChargingStation.net >> 352 377-6527 <(352)%20377-6527> Office >> 352 336-3299 <(352)%20336-3299> Fax >> >> >> The Sun Is Always Shining! >> >> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are >> not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use >> or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail >> and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Fri Jan 12 19:16:38 2018 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 00:16:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding generators to PV systems In-Reply-To: References: <1BFF1E9C-AB22-4CFF-84AA-14ACB82A156C@swnl.net>, Message-ID: Thanks Mac and all, I agree that putting the PV in a panel supported by the genset is not desirable. These are genset retrofits where the customers are hiring generator companies. I'm looking to avoid issues before they happen. Fortunately all customers (so far) are looking into or have purchased Generac which according to Mac has a Smart Management Module (SMM) option/accessory which may be the easiest solution. If the x-fer panels have a tap on the line side for the PV that would be best solution. I looked at one install today of a 400A Generac X-fer panel and it did not have line side tap. Most generator companies have no clue about how solar works and so we're doing some educating (or at least attempting) and research of our own. Thanks for all of your input! Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Mac Lewis Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 8:35 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding generators to PV systems Hi Wayne, As Tump suggested, getting the solar out of the load center served by the generator is a great way to go. You can also do a relay that opens the solar circuit in the event the generator is operating. Another option that I've used is Generac's Smart Management Module (SMM). These are designed to be load management relays and shed when frequency is dipping under load. However they can also be used to lock out loads during generator operation. I haven't used them for non-Generac generators but I suspect they would work fine. They don't require any communication, the logic is based on the waveform getting sent to the load so they can be situated far away from the transfer switch and generator. On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 3:44 AM, Tump > wrote: 2 suggestions; the first is installing the GT inverter output on the utility side of the T switch ( Manu’s recommended spot) . The second is have the generator tech set the frequency a bit lower then 59.5 Hz. (57-58 Hz.) which is usually the lower spot where the GT inverters will latch on and begin to output. Make sure that this setting is noted on the generator so the next tech will leave it at this setting. On Jan 11, 2018, at 8:54 PM, Wayne Irwin > wrote: Hello All, We have several customers adding generators to their homes on which we have previously installed PV systems. Historically most generators didn't produce a clean enough 60Hz sinewave to get the inverters to feed back. However, with the generator technology improving and the introduction of inverter generators, I'm concerned that if the inverters feed back to the generator it will smoke the stator. I'm wondering if any of you have any experience/issues? If so, what solutions or recommendations do you have? Thanks, Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Mon Jan 15 15:32:06 2018 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:32:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter Message-ID: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> Hello Wrenches, I have a client that is running into an issue with his off grid system. The system is 3yrs old and they are starting to notice their AGM battery bank is loosing capacity, in reality they are noticing the generator is triggering more often. They want to try to lower the frequency of the generator triggering if possible. The system is not occupied during much of the winter (unconditioned, which further hurts the battery bank capacity), but the client has a security system with a cell modem installed and always on. This fortunately allows Optics-RE access, but unfortunately based on the FNDC shunt readings, is pulling a consistent 150w from the battery bank. Currently the network and security equipment is powered from standard wall-warts running on AC. I'd like to help the client extend the time between generator cycles by taking the network loads and powering them directly from the battery bank (the loads are all 12Vdc). Does anyone have any recommendations for a decent quality DC_DC converter that would be applicable? Given inverter losses and the efficiency of the typical wall-wart, I'd expect the running loads to be closer to 80-100w rather than the 150w we see now. The intent is to then take the inverter into search mode, or even switch it off, to remove the tare losses there, and also to take all the wasted power from the standard wall-warts and go to a single, more efficient dc power supply. Any recommendations on a good DC_DC converter are appreciated. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 Dovetail Solar and Wind -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Mon Jan 15 15:40:57 2018 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:40:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter In-Reply-To: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: Mean-Well DC DC converters work well. You'll find you need a handful of them. Probably some 5 volt loads. And 12 volt loads. And maybe a 19 volt. The Mean-Well SD series will adjust slightly out of their rated range. So if the specs state it will adjust down to 19 volts, you can probably get to 18. You will, of course, also need a LVD for your DC loads. 150 watts sounds like an awful lot. My off grid house with fridge, all the wall warts for various devices, TV, Amazon FireTV box, two or three ethernet switches, DSL modem, router, wireless access point, inverter idle current, all kinds of monitoring boxes, web cam, GFI and AFCI outlets, water softener, microwave, cordless phones, USB outlets, VOIP gateway, etc etc ... was about 150 watts. Maybe you can get them to turn off all of the non-essential loads. On 1/15/2018 2:32 PM, Daniel Young wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a client that is running into an issue with his off grid system. > The system is 3yrs old and they are starting to notice their AGM battery > bank is loosing capacity, in reality they are noticing the generator is > triggering more often. They want to try to lower the frequency of the > generator triggering if possible. -- -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 17:01:22 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:01:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter In-Reply-To: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: Daniel; I've had good luck with the Samlex DC-DC converters for running 12VDC lighting loads from a 48VDC battery bank. With a DC overload they sound an audible alarm and shut down, but reset automatically when the overload is cleared. They can also be paralleled so no need to select different DC branch circuits assigned to each converter to balance loads.. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 1:32 PM, Daniel Young wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > > > I have a client that is running into an issue with his off grid system. > The system is 3yrs old and they are starting to notice their AGM battery > bank is loosing capacity, in reality they are noticing the generator is > triggering more often. They want to try to lower the frequency of the > generator triggering if possible. > > > > The system is not occupied during much of the winter (unconditioned, which > further hurts the battery bank capacity), but the client has a security > system with a cell modem installed and always on. This fortunately allows > Optics-RE access, but unfortunately based on the FNDC shunt readings, is > pulling a consistent 150w from the battery bank. Currently the network and > security equipment is powered from standard wall-warts running on AC. > > > > I’d like to help the client extend the time between generator cycles by > taking the network loads and powering them directly from the battery bank > (the loads are all 12Vdc). Does anyone have any recommendations for a > decent quality DC_DC converter that would be applicable? Given inverter > losses and the efficiency of the typical wall-wart, I’d expect the running > loads to be closer to 80-100w rather than the 150w we see now. The intent > is to then take the inverter into search mode, or even switch it off, to > remove the tare losses there, and also to take all the wasted power from > the standard wall-warts and go to a single, more efficient dc power supply. > > > > Any recommendations on a good DC_DC converter are appreciated. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > Dovetail Solar and Wind > > > > ________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 16:00:42 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 13:00:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter In-Reply-To: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: <488F947A-7ABF-4A0D-8F6F-A8719868326B@gmail.com> Can you tell us: Battery make,model and size? Jay Peltz power. > On Jan 15, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Daniel Young wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a client that is running into an issue with his off grid system. The system is 3yrs old and they are starting to notice their AGM battery bank is loosing capacity, in reality they are noticing the generator is triggering more often. They want to try to lower the frequency of the generator triggering if possible. > > The system is not occupied during much of the winter (unconditioned, which further hurts the battery bank capacity), but the client has a security system with a cell modem installed and always on. This fortunately allows Optics-RE access, but unfortunately based on the FNDC shunt readings, is pulling a consistent 150w from the battery bank. Currently the network and security equipment is powered from standard wall-warts running on AC. > > I’d like to help the client extend the time between generator cycles by taking the network loads and powering them directly from the battery bank (the loads are all 12Vdc). Does anyone have any recommendations for a decent quality DC_DC converter that would be applicable? Given inverter losses and the efficiency of the typical wall-wart, I’d expect the running loads to be closer to 80-100w rather than the 150w we see now. The intent is to then take the inverter into search mode, or even switch it off, to remove the tare losses there, and also to take all the wasted power from the standard wall-warts and go to a single, more efficient dc power supply. > > Any recommendations on a good DC_DC converter are appreciated. > > With Regards, > > Daniel Young, > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > Dovetail Solar and Wind > > __________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Jan 15 18:15:43 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 18:15:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter In-Reply-To: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: <002101d38e56$c56be2f0$5043a8d0$@glbcc.com> I have use an Astron 48-12V converter with good success. The one I have used is the 4812-20, but they also make a less powerful one. They are not small in form factor, but seem to be reliable. http://www.astroncorp.com/dcdc.shtml -Glenn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Young Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 3:32 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter Hello Wrenches, I have a client that is running into an issue with his off grid system. The system is 3yrs old and they are starting to notice their AGM battery bank is loosing capacity, in reality they are noticing the generator is triggering more often. They want to try to lower the frequency of the generator triggering if possible. The system is not occupied during much of the winter (unconditioned, which further hurts the battery bank capacity), but the client has a security system with a cell modem installed and always on. This fortunately allows Optics-RE access, but unfortunately based on the FNDC shunt readings, is pulling a consistent 150w from the battery bank. Currently the network and security equipment is powered from standard wall-warts running on AC. I'd like to help the client extend the time between generator cycles by taking the network loads and powering them directly from the battery bank (the loads are all 12Vdc). Does anyone have any recommendations for a decent quality DC_DC converter that would be applicable? Given inverter losses and the efficiency of the typical wall-wart, I'd expect the running loads to be closer to 80-100w rather than the 150w we see now. The intent is to then take the inverter into search mode, or even switch it off, to remove the tare losses there, and also to take all the wasted power from the standard wall-warts and go to a single, more efficient dc power supply. Any recommendations on a good DC_DC converter are appreciated. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 Dovetail Solar and Wind -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Jan 16 11:08:02 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 09:08:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter In-Reply-To: <488F947A-7ABF-4A0D-8F6F-A8719868326B@gmail.com> References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> <488F947A-7ABF-4A0D-8F6F-A8719868326B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <919E2893-3F60-4E31-A926-5238EB13B994@starlightsolar.com> I too would like to know the make and model of batteries that are loosing capacity. In the past 5 years we have experienced abnormally high failures from 2 brands. Larry On Jan 15, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Jay wrote: Can you tell us: Battery make,model and size? Jay Peltz power. On Jan 15, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Daniel Young > wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a client that is running into an issue with his off grid system. The system is 3yrs old and they are starting to notice their AGM battery bank is loosing capacity, in reality they are noticing the generator is triggering more often. They want to try to lower the frequency of the generator triggering if possible. > > The system is not occupied during much of the winter (unconditioned, which further hurts the battery bank capacity), but the client has a security system with a cell modem installed and always on. This fortunately allows Optics-RE access, but unfortunately based on the FNDC shunt readings, is pulling a consistent 150w from the battery bank. Currently the network and security equipment is powered from standard wall-warts running on AC. > > I’d like to help the client extend the time between generator cycles by taking the network loads and powering them directly from the battery bank (the loads are all 12Vdc). Does anyone have any recommendations for a decent quality DC_DC converter that would be applicable? Given inverter losses and the efficiency of the typical wall-wart, I’d expect the running loads to be closer to 80-100w rather than the 150w we see now. The intent is to then take the inverter into search mode, or even switch it off, to remove the tare losses there, and also to take all the wasted power from the standard wall-warts and go to a single, more efficient dc power supply. > > Any recommendations on a good DC_DC converter are appreciated. > > With Regards, > > Daniel Young, > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > Dovetail Solar and Wind > > __________________________ > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Tue Jan 16 15:06:18 2018 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:06:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter In-Reply-To: <919E2893-3F60-4E31-A926-5238EB13B994@starlightsolar.com> References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> <488F947A-7ABF-4A0D-8F6F-A8719868326B@gmail.com> <919E2893-3F60-4E31-A926-5238EB13B994@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <004e01d38f05$78ec5900$6ac50b00$@dovetailsolar.com> Answers to questions: The batteries are Discover EVL16A-A batteries. A single string of 8: 390AH @48V nominal. We had one fail last year, showing a significantly raised internal resistance when tested under a load then under charge. There is another one showing signs of weakness, but currently under a 30A draw it is only 0.12V lower than the highest battery in the mix, and 0.05V from the average battery voltage. Readings were: 6.0, 5.88, 6.0, 5.93, 5.92, 5.91, 5.93, 5.94 using a 1500W space heater as a constant load during the test. There are more loads than just networking and security that the client just recently disclosed. Gotta love the added loads to the design. There is a satellite DVR, 2x4 camera webcam systems, cell modem, simplisafe security system, chest freezer, 4 wifi range extenders to serve the less reliable security camera system, and 26W LED dusk-dawn light. I have already talked to them about thinking hard on what items can be removed for the winter at least (DVR is going away, and one of the camera systems too, likely the one requiring the wifi range extenders). All other seasons the system is fine. As for the DC converter(s) we would get a voltage specific converter for any unique voltages, depending on the # of unique items, we would likely abandon that approach if it got to bee too complicated. But thank you to all that provided guidance there. The meanwell units seemed to have the right specs to do the job if we go that route. We would also install them using a LVD of some sort, set somewhere above the standard low voltage cutoff of the rest of the system. We would also only go this route if all AC loads could be removed by doing this, allowing us to remove the 36w idle draw of the Outback. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 Lead Systems Designer for: www.dovetailsolar.com Ph: 740-274-0139 We’ve completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects! Check out a few in our photo gallery: http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee. It may contain information which is legally privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you may not disclose, print, copy or disseminate this message and/or the information contained in the message. If you have received this message in error, please reply and notify the sender (only) and delete this message along with any attachments. Unauthorized interception of this email is a violation of criminal laws and laws covering electronic communications privacy matters. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 11:08 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter I too would like to know the make and model of batteries that are loosing capacity. In the past 5 years we have experienced abnormally high failures from 2 brands. Larry On Jan 15, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Jay > wrote: Can you tell us: Battery make,model and size? Jay Peltz power. On Jan 15, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Daniel Young < dyoung at dovetailsolar.com> wrote: Hello Wrenches, I have a client that is running into an issue with his off grid system. The system is 3yrs old and they are starting to notice their AGM battery bank is loosing capacity, in reality they are noticing the generator is triggering more often. They want to try to lower the frequency of the generator triggering if possible. The system is not occupied during much of the winter (unconditioned, which further hurts the battery bank capacity), but the client has a security system with a cell modem installed and always on. This fortunately allows Optics-RE access, but unfortunately based on the FNDC shunt readings, is pulling a consistent 150w from the battery bank. Currently the network and security equipment is powered from standard wall-warts running on AC. I’d like to help the client extend the time between generator cycles by taking the network loads and powering them directly from the battery bank (the loads are all 12Vdc). Does anyone have any recommendations for a decent quality DC_DC converter that would be applicable? Given inverter losses and the efficiency of the typical wall-wart, I’d expect the running loads to be closer to 80-100w rather than the 150w we see now. The intent is to then take the inverter into search mode, or even switch it off, to remove the tare losses there, and also to take all the wasted power from the standard wall-warts and go to a single, more efficient dc power supply. Any recommendations on a good DC_DC converter are appreciated. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 Dovetail Solar and Wind __________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4343 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Jan 16 15:28:55 2018 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:28:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter In-Reply-To: <004e01d38f05$78ec5900$6ac50b00$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> <488F947A-7ABF-4A0D-8F6F-A8719868326B@gmail.com> <919E2893-3F60-4E31-A926-5238EB13B994@starlightsolar.com> <004e01d38f05$78ec5900$6ac50b00$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: Daniel, While the Meanwell has been a good choice for me at times, I have also run across some of their converters which have an active cooling fan which is steady on (no thermal control). This leaves a steady phantom load as well as a fairly loud background drone. And their tech support did not accurately portray these specs to me when I asked. Howie On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 3:06 PM, Daniel Young wrote: > Answers to questions: > > > > The batteries are Discover EVL16A-A batteries. A single string of 8: 390AH > @48V nominal. We had one fail last year, showing a significantly raised > internal resistance when tested under a load then under charge. There is > another one showing signs of weakness, but currently under a 30A draw it is > only 0.12V lower than the highest battery in the mix, and 0.05V from the > average battery voltage. Readings were: 6.0, 5.88, 6.0, 5.93, 5.92, 5.91, > 5.93, 5.94 using a 1500W space heater as a constant load during the test. > > > > There are more loads than just networking and security that the client > just recently disclosed. Gotta love the added loads to the design. There is > a satellite DVR, 2x4 camera webcam systems, cell modem, simplisafe security > system, chest freezer, 4 wifi range extenders to serve the less reliable > security camera system, and 26W LED dusk-dawn light. I have already talked > to them about thinking hard on what items can be removed for the winter at > least (DVR is going away, and one of the camera systems too, likely the one > requiring the wifi range extenders). All other seasons the system is fine. > > > > As for the DC converter(s) we would get a voltage specific converter for > any unique voltages, depending on the # of unique items, we would likely > abandon that approach if it got to bee too complicated. But thank you to > all that provided guidance there. The meanwell units seemed to have the > right specs to do the job if we go that route. We would also install them > using a LVD of some sort, set somewhere above the standard low voltage > cutoff of the rest of the system. We would also only go this route if all > AC loads could be removed by doing this, allowing us to remove the 36w idle > draw of the Outback. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > > Lead Systems Designer for: > > [image: Dovetail 2013 cmyk 300dpi.jpg] > > *www.dovetailsolar.com* > > Ph: 740-274-0139 <(740)%20274-0139> > > > > We’ve completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects! Check out a few in > our photo gallery: > *http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric* > > > This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee. > It may contain information which is legally privileged, confidential and > exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this > message, you may not disclose, print, copy or disseminate this message > and/or the information contained in the message. If you have received this > message in error, please reply and notify the sender (only) and delete this > message along with any attachments. Unauthorized interception of this > email is a violation of criminal laws and laws covering electronic > communications privacy matters. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Starlight Solar Power Systems > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 16, 2018 11:08 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter > > > > I too would like to know the make and model of batteries that are loosing > capacity. In the past 5 years we have experienced abnormally high failures > from 2 brands. > > > > Larry > > On Jan 15, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Jay wrote: > > > > Can you tell us: > > > > Battery make,model and size? > > > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > On Jan 15, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Daniel Young > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > I have a client that is running into an issue with his off grid system. > The system is 3yrs old and they are starting to notice their AGM battery > bank is loosing capacity, in reality they are noticing the generator is > triggering more often. They want to try to lower the frequency of the > generator triggering if possible. > > > > The system is not occupied during much of the winter (unconditioned, which > further hurts the battery bank capacity), but the client has a security > system with a cell modem installed and always on. This fortunately allows > Optics-RE access, but unfortunately based on the FNDC shunt readings, is > pulling a consistent 150w from the battery bank. Currently the network and > security equipment is powered from standard wall-warts running on AC. > > > > I’d like to help the client extend the time between generator cycles by > taking the network loads and powering them directly from the battery bank > (the loads are all 12Vdc). Does anyone have any recommendations for a > decent quality DC_DC converter that would be applicable? Given inverter > losses and the efficiency of the typical wall-wart, I’d expect the running > loads to be closer to 80-100w rather than the 150w we see now. The intent > is to then take the inverter into search mode, or even switch it off, to > remove the tare losses there, and also to take all the wasted power from > the standard wall-warts and go to a single, more efficient dc power supply. > > > > Any recommendations on a good DC_DC converter are appreciated. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > Dovetail Solar and Wind > > > > __________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists. > re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4343 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jan 16 15:34:12 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 12:34:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter In-Reply-To: <004e01d38f05$78ec5900$6ac50b00$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> <488F947A-7ABF-4A0D-8F6F-A8719868326B@gmail.com> <919E2893-3F60-4E31-A926-5238EB13B994@starlightsolar.com> <004e01d38f05$78ec5900$6ac50b00$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: Seems to me that you are on the edge for that size battery in winter. If the inverter is going to be on, converters are kind of nutty to me. I could see having one 24V for the freezer but... I only use Concorde AGM's when I have to. Is there an AH counter or Batt Mon? Good Luck Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Answers to questions: > > > > The batteries are Discover EVL16A-A batteries. A single string of 8: 390AH > @48V nominal. We had one fail last year, showing a significantly raised > internal resistance when tested under a load then under charge. There is > another one showing signs of weakness, but currently under a 30A draw it > is only 0.12V lower than the highest battery in the mix, and 0.05V from > the average battery voltage. Readings were: 6.0, 5.88, 6.0, 5.93, 5.92, > 5.91, 5.93, 5.94 using a 1500W space heater as a constant load during the > test. > > > > There are more loads than just networking and security that the client > just recently disclosed. Gotta love the added loads to the design. There > is a satellite DVR, 2x4 camera webcam systems, cell modem, simplisafe > security system, chest freezer, 4 wifi range extenders to serve the less > reliable security camera system, and 26W LED dusk-dawn light. I have > already talked to them about thinking hard on what items can be removed > for the winter at least (DVR is going away, and one of the camera systems > too, likely the one requiring the wifi range extenders). All other seasons > the system is fine. > > > > As for the DC converter(s) we would get a voltage specific converter for > any unique voltages, depending on the # of unique items, we would likely > abandon that approach if it got to bee too complicated. But thank you to > all that provided guidance there. The meanwell units seemed to have the > right specs to do the job if we go that route. We would also install them > using a LVD of some sort, set somewhere above the standard low voltage > cutoff of the rest of the system. We would also only go this route if all > AC loads could be removed by doing this, allowing us to remove the 36w > idle draw of the Outback. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > > Lead Systems Designer for: > > > > www.dovetailsolar.com > > Ph: 740-274-0139 > > > > We’ve completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects! Check out a few > in our photo gallery: > > http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric > > This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee. > It may contain information which is legally privileged, confidential and > exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this > message, you may not disclose, print, copy or disseminate this message > and/or the information contained in the message. If you have received > this message in error, please reply and notify the sender (only) and > delete this message along with any attachments. Unauthorized interception > of this email is a violation of criminal laws and laws covering electronic > communications privacy matters. > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 11:08 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter > > > > I too would like to know the make and model of batteries that are loosing > capacity. In the past 5 years we have experienced abnormally high failures > from 2 brands. > > > > Larry > > On Jan 15, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Jay > wrote: > > > > Can you tell us: > > > > Battery make,model and size? > > > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > On Jan 15, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Daniel Young < > dyoung at dovetailsolar.com> wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > I have a client that is running into an issue with his off grid system. > The system is 3yrs old and they are starting to notice their AGM battery > bank is loosing capacity, in reality they are noticing the generator is > triggering more often. They want to try to lower the frequency of the > generator triggering if possible. > > > > The system is not occupied during much of the winter (unconditioned, which > further hurts the battery bank capacity), but the client has a security > system with a cell modem installed and always on. This fortunately allows > Optics-RE access, but unfortunately based on the FNDC shunt readings, is > pulling a consistent 150w from the battery bank. Currently the network and > security equipment is powered from standard wall-warts running on AC. > > > > I’d like to help the client extend the time between generator cycles by > taking the network loads and powering them directly from the battery bank > (the loads are all 12Vdc). Does anyone have any recommendations for a > decent quality DC_DC converter that would be applicable? Given inverter > losses and the efficiency of the typical wall-wart, I’d expect the > running loads to be closer to 80-100w rather than the 150w we see now. The > intent is to then take the inverter into search mode, or even switch it > off, to remove the tare losses there, and also to take all the wasted > power from the standard wall-warts and go to a single, more efficient dc > power supply. > > > > Any recommendations on a good DC_DC converter are appreciated. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > Dovetail Solar and Wind > > > > __________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Tue Jan 16 15:51:22 2018 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:51:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter In-Reply-To: References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> <488F947A-7ABF-4A0D-8F6F-A8719868326B@gmail.com> <919E2893-3F60-4E31-A926-5238EB13B994@starlightsolar.com> <004e01d38f05$78ec5900$6ac50b00$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: <006201d38f0b$c4d5bb30$4e813190$@dovetailsolar.com> Agreed Dave, there are more loads than the original design accounted for. The client understands this so at least we're not in hot water. We're just trying to help them figure out options. As for the converters, this was the idea before the client told us about the freezer being left on while they were away. It was originally planned that the freezer and fridge were only to be used while they were on site. The converters were only the plan when we thought we were dealing with 4-5 different DC loads, and assuming 2 different DC voltages being needed. The situation changed since the original post. The site does have a flexnet-DC, this is what I'm using for my analysis of the loads on an ongoing basis. I've been using the information coming from the 2 shunts used in the system, as my experience has been that they are the most accurate part of the system viewable from Optics-RE. As for concords, they don't appear to be very different from the cut sheet standpoint. Similar cycle life, similar capacity vs temperature. But they are both AGM. I know concord is a big name in the AGM space as they supply to the D.O.D. but our local suppliers do not carry them. I'd be open to others opinions on the different brand options. Most AGM system we put in are just floating for the 1-2 times a year the power goes out for suburban and semi-rural clients. This off grid job went AGM due to the expected long absences and unconditioned battery location (expected cold temps while possibly at a lower SOC). The client really did not want to do the standard flooded battery maintenance. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 Lead Systems Designer for: www.dovetailsolar.com Ph: 740-274-0139 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 3:34 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter Seems to me that you are on the edge for that size battery in winter. If the inverter is going to be on, converters are kind of nutty to me. I could see having one 24V for the freezer but... I only use Concorde AGM's when I have to. Is there an AH counter or Batt Mon? Good Luck Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Answers to questions: > > > > The batteries are Discover EVL16A-A batteries. A single string of 8: > 390AH @48V nominal. We had one fail last year, showing a significantly > raised internal resistance when tested under a load then under charge. > There is another one showing signs of weakness, but currently under a > 30A draw it is only 0.12V lower than the highest battery in the mix, > and 0.05V from the average battery voltage. Readings were: 6.0, 5.88, > 6.0, 5.93, 5.92, 5.91, 5.93, 5.94 using a 1500W space heater as a > constant load during the test. > > > > There are more loads than just networking and security that the client > just recently disclosed. Gotta love the added loads to the design. > There is a satellite DVR, 2x4 camera webcam systems, cell modem, > simplisafe security system, chest freezer, 4 wifi range extenders to > serve the less reliable security camera system, and 26W LED dusk-dawn > light. I have already talked to them about thinking hard on what items > can be removed for the winter at least (DVR is going away, and one of > the camera systems too, likely the one requiring the wifi range > extenders). All other seasons the system is fine. > > > > As for the DC converter(s) we would get a voltage specific converter > for any unique voltages, depending on the # of unique items, we would > likely abandon that approach if it got to bee too complicated. But > thank you to all that provided guidance there. The meanwell units > seemed to have the right specs to do the job if we go that route. We > would also install them using a LVD of some sort, set somewhere above > the standard low voltage cutoff of the rest of the system. We would > also only go this route if all AC loads could be removed by doing > this, allowing us to remove the 36w idle draw of the Outback. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > > Lead Systems Designer for: > > > > www.dovetailsolar.com > > Ph: 740-274-0139 > > > > We’ve completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects! Check out a > few in our photo gallery: > ectric> > http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+ele > ctric > > This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee. > It may contain information which is legally privileged, confidential > and exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of > this message, you may not disclose, print, copy or disseminate this > message and/or the information contained in the message. If you have > received this message in error, please reply and notify the sender > (only) and delete this message along with any attachments. > Unauthorized interception of this email is a violation of criminal > laws and laws covering electronic communications privacy matters. > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 11:08 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter > > > > I too would like to know the make and model of batteries that are > loosing capacity. In the past 5 years we have experienced abnormally > high failures from 2 brands. > > > > Larry > > On Jan 15, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Jay > wrote: > > > > Can you tell us: > > > > Battery make,model and size? > > > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > On Jan 15, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Daniel Young < > dyoung at dovetailsolar.com> wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > I have a client that is running into an issue with his off grid system. > The system is 3yrs old and they are starting to notice their AGM > battery bank is loosing capacity, in reality they are noticing the > generator is triggering more often. They want to try to lower the > frequency of the generator triggering if possible. > > > > The system is not occupied during much of the winter (unconditioned, > which further hurts the battery bank capacity), but the client has a > security system with a cell modem installed and always on. This > fortunately allows Optics-RE access, but unfortunately based on the > FNDC shunt readings, is pulling a consistent 150w from the battery > bank. Currently the network and security equipment is powered from standard wall-warts running on AC. > > > > I’d like to help the client extend the time between generator cycles > by taking the network loads and powering them directly from the > battery bank (the loads are all 12Vdc). Does anyone have any > recommendations for a decent quality DC_DC converter that would be > applicable? Given inverter losses and the efficiency of the typical > wall-wart, I’d expect the running loads to be closer to 80-100w > rather than the 150w we see now. The intent is to then take the > inverter into search mode, or even switch it off, to remove the tare > losses there, and also to take all the wasted power from the standard > wall-warts and go to a single, more efficient dc power supply. > > > > Any recommendations on a good DC_DC converter are appreciated. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > Dovetail Solar and Wind > > > > __________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > t.html> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From ray at solarray.com Tue Jan 16 16:53:08 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:53:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter In-Reply-To: <006201d38f0b$c4d5bb30$4e813190$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> <488F947A-7ABF-4A0D-8F6F-A8719868326B@gmail.com> <919E2893-3F60-4E31-A926-5238EB13B994@starlightsolar.com> <004e01d38f05$78ec5900$6ac50b00$@dovetailsolar.com> <006201d38f0b$c4d5bb30$4e813190$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: The cell failures described are yet another sign the batteries need to be replaced. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 1/16/2018 1:51 PM, Daniel Young wrote: > Agreed Dave, there are more loads than the original design accounted for. The client understands this so at least we're not in hot water. We're just trying to help them figure out options. > > As for the converters, this was the idea before the client told us about the freezer being left on while they were away. It was originally planned that the freezer and fridge were only to be used while they were on site. The converters were only the plan when we thought we were dealing with 4-5 different DC loads, and assuming 2 different DC voltages being needed. The situation changed since the original post. > > The site does have a flexnet-DC, this is what I'm using for my analysis of the loads on an ongoing basis. I've been using the information coming from the 2 shunts used in the system, as my experience has been that they are the most accurate part of the system viewable from Optics-RE. > > As for concords, they don't appear to be very different from the cut sheet standpoint. Similar cycle life, similar capacity vs temperature. But they are both AGM. I know concord is a big name in the AGM space as they supply to the D.O.D. but our local suppliers do not carry them. I'd be open to others opinions on the different brand options. Most AGM system we put in are just floating for the 1-2 times a year the power goes out for suburban and semi-rural clients. This off grid job went AGM due to the expected long absences and unconditioned battery location (expected cold temps while possibly at a lower SOC). The client really did not want to do the standard flooded battery maintenance. > > With Regards, > > Daniel Young, > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > Lead Systems Designer for: > > www.dovetailsolar.com > Ph: 740-274-0139 > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 3:34 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter > > Seems to me that you are on the edge for that size battery in winter. If the inverter is going to be on, converters are kind of nutty to me. I could see having one 24V for the freezer but... I only use Concorde AGM's when I have to. Is there an AH counter or Batt Mon? > Good Luck > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > >> Answers to questions: >> >> >> >> The batteries are Discover EVL16A-A batteries. A single string of 8: >> 390AH @48V nominal. We had one fail last year, showing a significantly >> raised internal resistance when tested under a load then under charge. >> There is another one showing signs of weakness, but currently under a >> 30A draw it is only 0.12V lower than the highest battery in the mix, >> and 0.05V from the average battery voltage. Readings were: 6.0, 5.88, >> 6.0, 5.93, 5.92, 5.91, 5.93, 5.94 using a 1500W space heater as a >> constant load during the test. >> >> >> >> There are more loads than just networking and security that the client >> just recently disclosed. Gotta love the added loads to the design. >> There is a satellite DVR, 2x4 camera webcam systems, cell modem, >> simplisafe security system, chest freezer, 4 wifi range extenders to >> serve the less reliable security camera system, and 26W LED dusk-dawn >> light. I have already talked to them about thinking hard on what items >> can be removed for the winter at least (DVR is going away, and one of >> the camera systems too, likely the one requiring the wifi range >> extenders). All other seasons the system is fine. >> >> >> >> As for the DC converter(s) we would get a voltage specific converter >> for any unique voltages, depending on the # of unique items, we would >> likely abandon that approach if it got to bee too complicated. But >> thank you to all that provided guidance there. The meanwell units >> seemed to have the right specs to do the job if we go that route. We >> would also install them using a LVD of some sort, set somewhere above >> the standard low voltage cutoff of the rest of the system. We would >> also only go this route if all AC loads could be removed by doing >> this, allowing us to remove the 36w idle draw of the Outback. >> >> >> >> With Regards, >> >> >> >> Daniel Young, >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >> >> >> >> Lead Systems Designer for: >> >> >> >> www.dovetailsolar.com >> >> Ph: 740-274-0139 >> >> >> >> We’ve completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects! Check out a >> few in our photo gallery: >> > ectric> >> http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+ele >> ctric >> >> This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee. >> It may contain information which is legally privileged, confidential >> and exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of >> this message, you may not disclose, print, copy or disseminate this >> message and/or the information contained in the message. If you have >> received this message in error, please reply and notify the sender >> (only) and delete this message along with any attachments. >> Unauthorized interception of this email is a violation of criminal >> laws and laws covering electronic communications privacy matters. >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems >> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 11:08 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter >> >> >> >> I too would like to know the make and model of batteries that are >> loosing capacity. In the past 5 years we have experienced abnormally >> high failures from 2 brands. >> >> >> >> Larry >> >> On Jan 15, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Jay > > wrote: >> >> >> >> Can you tell us: >> >> >> >> Battery make,model and size? >> >> >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> On Jan 15, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Daniel Young < >> dyoung at dovetailsolar.com> wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> >> >> I have a client that is running into an issue with his off grid system. >> The system is 3yrs old and they are starting to notice their AGM >> battery bank is loosing capacity, in reality they are noticing the >> generator is triggering more often. They want to try to lower the >> frequency of the generator triggering if possible. >> >> >> >> The system is not occupied during much of the winter (unconditioned, >> which further hurts the battery bank capacity), but the client has a >> security system with a cell modem installed and always on. This >> fortunately allows Optics-RE access, but unfortunately based on the >> FNDC shunt readings, is pulling a consistent 150w from the battery >> bank. Currently the network and security equipment is powered from standard wall-warts running on AC. >> >> >> >> I’d like to help the client extend the time between generator cycles >> by taking the network loads and powering them directly from the >> battery bank (the loads are all 12Vdc). Does anyone have any >> recommendations for a decent quality DC_DC converter that would be >> applicable? Given inverter losses and the efficiency of the typical >> wall-wart, I’d expect the running loads to be closer to 80-100w >> rather than the 150w we see now. The intent is to then take the >> inverter into search mode, or even switch it off, to remove the tare >> losses there, and also to take all the wasted power from the standard >> wall-warts and go to a single, more efficient dc power supply. >> >> >> >> Any recommendations on a good DC_DC converter are appreciated. >> >> >> >> With Regards, >> >> >> >> Daniel Young, >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >> >> Dovetail Solar and Wind >> >> >> >> __________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: >> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> > t.html> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dana at solarwork.com Tue Jan 16 22:15:14 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 20:15:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter In-Reply-To: <006201d38f0b$c4d5bb30$4e813190$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> <488F947A-7ABF-4A0D-8F6F-A8719868326B@gmail.com> <919E2893-3F60-4E31-A926-5238EB13B994@starlightsolar.com> <004e01d38f05$78ec5900$6ac50b00$@dovetailsolar.com> <006201d38f0b$c4d5bb30$4e813190$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: <006001d38f41$6850fa60$38f2ef20$@solarwork.com> Do an Energy Load Evaluation, it commits the client to participation in a personal way. I will not design without one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Young Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 1:51 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter Agreed Dave, there are more loads than the original design accounted for. The client understands this so at least we're not in hot water. We're just trying to help them figure out options. As for the converters, this was the idea before the client told us about the freezer being left on while they were away. It was originally planned that the freezer and fridge were only to be used while they were on site. The converters were only the plan when we thought we were dealing with 4-5 different DC loads, and assuming 2 different DC voltages being needed. The situation changed since the original post. The site does have a flexnet-DC, this is what I'm using for my analysis of the loads on an ongoing basis. I've been using the information coming from the 2 shunts used in the system, as my experience has been that they are the most accurate part of the system viewable from Optics-RE. As for concords, they don't appear to be very different from the cut sheet standpoint. Similar cycle life, similar capacity vs temperature. But they are both AGM. I know concord is a big name in the AGM space as they supply to the D.O.D. but our local suppliers do not carry them. I'd be open to others opinions on the different brand options. Most AGM system we put in are just floating for the 1-2 times a year the power goes out for suburban and semi-rural clients. This off grid job went AGM due to the expected long absences and unconditioned battery location (expected cold temps while possibly at a lower SOC). The client really did not want to do the standard flooded battery maintenance. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 Lead Systems Designer for: www.dovetailsolar.com Ph: 740-274-0139 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 3:34 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter Seems to me that you are on the edge for that size battery in winter. If the inverter is going to be on, converters are kind of nutty to me. I could see having one 24V for the freezer but... I only use Concorde AGM's when I have to. Is there an AH counter or Batt Mon? Good Luck Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Answers to questions: > > > > The batteries are Discover EVL16A-A batteries. A single string of 8: > 390AH @48V nominal. We had one fail last year, showing a significantly > raised internal resistance when tested under a load then under charge. > There is another one showing signs of weakness, but currently under a > 30A draw it is only 0.12V lower than the highest battery in the mix, > and 0.05V from the average battery voltage. Readings were: 6.0, 5.88, > 6.0, 5.93, 5.92, 5.91, 5.93, 5.94 using a 1500W space heater as a > constant load during the test. > > > > There are more loads than just networking and security that the client > just recently disclosed. Gotta love the added loads to the design. > There is a satellite DVR, 2x4 camera webcam systems, cell modem, > simplisafe security system, chest freezer, 4 wifi range extenders to > serve the less reliable security camera system, and 26W LED dusk-dawn > light. I have already talked to them about thinking hard on what items > can be removed for the winter at least (DVR is going away, and one of > the camera systems too, likely the one requiring the wifi range > extenders). All other seasons the system is fine. > > > > As for the DC converter(s) we would get a voltage specific converter > for any unique voltages, depending on the # of unique items, we would > likely abandon that approach if it got to bee too complicated. But > thank you to all that provided guidance there. The meanwell units > seemed to have the right specs to do the job if we go that route. We > would also install them using a LVD of some sort, set somewhere above > the standard low voltage cutoff of the rest of the system. We would > also only go this route if all AC loads could be removed by doing > this, allowing us to remove the 36w idle draw of the Outback. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > > Lead Systems Designer for: > > > > www.dovetailsolar.com > > Ph: 740-274-0139 > > > > We’ve completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects! Check out a > few in our photo gallery: > ectric> > http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+ele > ctric > > This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee. > It may contain information which is legally privileged, confidential > and exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of > this message, you may not disclose, print, copy or disseminate this > message and/or the information contained in the message. If you have > received this message in error, please reply and notify the sender > (only) and delete this message along with any attachments. > Unauthorized interception of this email is a violation of criminal > laws and laws covering electronic communications privacy matters. > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 11:08 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter > > > > I too would like to know the make and model of batteries that are > loosing capacity. In the past 5 years we have experienced abnormally > high failures from 2 brands. > > > > Larry > > On Jan 15, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Jay > wrote: > > > > Can you tell us: > > > > Battery make,model and size? > > > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > On Jan 15, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Daniel Young < > dyoung at dovetailsolar.com> wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > I have a client that is running into an issue with his off grid system. > The system is 3yrs old and they are starting to notice their AGM > battery bank is loosing capacity, in reality they are noticing the > generator is triggering more often. They want to try to lower the > frequency of the generator triggering if possible. > > > > The system is not occupied during much of the winter (unconditioned, > which further hurts the battery bank capacity), but the client has a > security system with a cell modem installed and always on. This > fortunately allows Optics-RE access, but unfortunately based on the > FNDC shunt readings, is pulling a consistent 150w from the battery > bank. Currently the network and security equipment is powered from standard wall-warts running on AC. > > > > I’d like to help the client extend the time between generator cycles > by taking the network loads and powering them directly from the > battery bank (the loads are all 12Vdc). Does anyone have any > recommendations for a decent quality DC_DC converter that would be > applicable? Given inverter losses and the efficiency of the typical > wall-wart, I’d expect the running loads to be closer to 80-100w > rather than the 150w we see now. The intent is to then take the > inverter into search mode, or even switch it off, to remove the tare > losses there, and also to take all the wasted power from the standard > wall-warts and go to a single, more efficient dc power supply. > > > > Any recommendations on a good DC_DC converter are appreciated. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > Dovetail Solar and Wind > > > > __________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > t.html> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jan 17 11:25:49 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 08:25:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter In-Reply-To: <006001d38f41$6850fa60$38f2ef20$@solarwork.com> References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> <488F947A-7ABF-4A0D-8F6F-A8719868326B@gmail.com> <919E2893-3F60-4E31-A926-5238EB13B994@starlightsolar.com> <004e01d38f05$78ec5900$6ac50b00$@dovetailsolar.com> <006201d38f0b$c4d5bb30$4e813190$@dovetailsolar.com> <006001d38f41$6850fa60$38f2ef20$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Or just design extra loading in. Tell them they have this much wiggle room and after that, it is the next size in battery and more solar. People always use more after a year or so. I also have the client post a copy of the cost for the battery on the wall near the system. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Do an Energy Load Evaluation, it commits the client to participation in a > personal way. I will not design without one. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Daniel Young > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 1:51 PM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter > > Agreed Dave, there are more loads than the original design accounted for. > The client understands this so at least we're not in hot water. We're just > trying to help them figure out options. > > As for the converters, this was the idea before the client told us about > the freezer being left on while they were away. It was originally planned > that the freezer and fridge were only to be used while they were on site. > The converters were only the plan when we thought we were dealing with 4-5 > different DC loads, and assuming 2 different DC voltages being needed. The > situation changed since the original post. > > The site does have a flexnet-DC, this is what I'm using for my analysis of > the loads on an ongoing basis. I've been using the information coming from > the 2 shunts used in the system, as my experience has been that they are > the most accurate part of the system viewable from Optics-RE. > > As for concords, they don't appear to be very different from the cut sheet > standpoint. Similar cycle life, similar capacity vs temperature. But they > are both AGM. I know concord is a big name in the AGM space as they supply > to the D.O.D. but our local suppliers do not carry them. I'd be open to > others opinions on the different brand options. Most AGM system we put in > are just floating for the 1-2 times a year the power goes out for suburban > and semi-rural clients. This off grid job went AGM due to the expected > long absences and unconditioned battery location (expected cold temps > while possibly at a lower SOC). The client really did not want to do the > standard flooded battery maintenance. > > With Regards, > > Daniel Young, > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > Lead Systems Designer for: > > www.dovetailsolar.com > Ph: 740-274-0139 > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 3:34 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter > > Seems to me that you are on the edge for that size battery in winter. If > the inverter is going to be on, converters are kind of nutty to me. I > could see having one 24V for the freezer but... I only use Concorde AGM's > when I have to. Is there an AH counter or Batt Mon? > Good Luck > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > >> Answers to questions: >> >> >> >> The batteries are Discover EVL16A-A batteries. A single string of 8: >> 390AH @48V nominal. We had one fail last year, showing a significantly >> raised internal resistance when tested under a load then under charge. >> There is another one showing signs of weakness, but currently under a >> 30A draw it is only 0.12V lower than the highest battery in the mix, >> and 0.05V from the average battery voltage. Readings were: 6.0, 5.88, >> 6.0, 5.93, 5.92, 5.91, 5.93, 5.94 using a 1500W space heater as a >> constant load during the test. >> >> >> >> There are more loads than just networking and security that the client >> just recently disclosed. Gotta love the added loads to the design. >> There is a satellite DVR, 2x4 camera webcam systems, cell modem, >> simplisafe security system, chest freezer, 4 wifi range extenders to >> serve the less reliable security camera system, and 26W LED dusk-dawn >> light. I have already talked to them about thinking hard on what items >> can be removed for the winter at least (DVR is going away, and one of >> the camera systems too, likely the one requiring the wifi range >> extenders). All other seasons the system is fine. >> >> >> >> As for the DC converter(s) we would get a voltage specific converter >> for any unique voltages, depending on the # of unique items, we would >> likely abandon that approach if it got to bee too complicated. But >> thank you to all that provided guidance there. The meanwell units >> seemed to have the right specs to do the job if we go that route. We >> would also install them using a LVD of some sort, set somewhere above >> the standard low voltage cutoff of the rest of the system. We would >> also only go this route if all AC loads could be removed by doing >> this, allowing us to remove the 36w idle draw of the Outback. >> >> >> >> With Regards, >> >> >> >> Daniel Young, >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >> >> >> >> Lead Systems Designer for: >> >> >> >> www.dovetailsolar.com >> >> Ph: 740-274-0139 >> >> >> >> We’ve completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects! Check out >> a >> few in our photo gallery: >> > ectric> >> http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+ele >> ctric >> >> This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee. >> It may contain information which is legally privileged, confidential >> and exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of >> this message, you may not disclose, print, copy or disseminate this >> message and/or the information contained in the message. If you have >> received this message in error, please reply and notify the sender >> (only) and delete this message along with any attachments. >> Unauthorized interception of this email is a violation of criminal >> laws and laws covering electronic communications privacy matters. >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems >> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 11:08 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter >> >> >> >> I too would like to know the make and model of batteries that are >> loosing capacity. In the past 5 years we have experienced abnormally >> high failures from 2 brands. >> >> >> >> Larry >> >> On Jan 15, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Jay > > wrote: >> >> >> >> Can you tell us: >> >> >> >> Battery make,model and size? >> >> >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> On Jan 15, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Daniel Young < >> dyoung at dovetailsolar.com> wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> >> >> I have a client that is running into an issue with his off grid system. >> The system is 3yrs old and they are starting to notice their AGM >> battery bank is loosing capacity, in reality they are noticing the >> generator is triggering more often. They want to try to lower the >> frequency of the generator triggering if possible. >> >> >> >> The system is not occupied during much of the winter (unconditioned, >> which further hurts the battery bank capacity), but the client has a >> security system with a cell modem installed and always on. This >> fortunately allows Optics-RE access, but unfortunately based on the >> FNDC shunt readings, is pulling a consistent 150w from the battery >> bank. Currently the network and security equipment is powered from >> standard wall-warts running on AC. >> >> >> >> I’d like to help the client extend the time between generator >> cycles >> by taking the network loads and powering them directly from the >> battery bank (the loads are all 12Vdc). Does anyone have any >> recommendations for a decent quality DC_DC converter that would be >> applicable? Given inverter losses and the efficiency of the typical >> wall-wart, I’d expect the running loads to be closer to 80-100w >> rather than the 150w we see now. The intent is to then take the >> inverter into search mode, or even switch it off, to remove the tare >> losses there, and also to take all the wasted power from the standard >> wall-warts and go to a single, more efficient dc power supply. >> >> >> >> Any recommendations on a good DC_DC converter are appreciated. >> >> >> >> With Regards, >> >> >> >> Daniel Young, >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >> >> Dovetail Solar and Wind >> >> >> >> __________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: >> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> > t.html> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From frenergy at psln.com Wed Jan 17 23:46:49 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 20:46:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter In-Reply-To: References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> <488F947A-7ABF-4A0D-8F6F-A8719868326B@gmail.com> <919E2893-3F60-4E31-A926-5238EB13B994@starlightsolar.com> <004e01d38f05$78ec5900$6ac50b00$@dovetailsolar.com> <006201d38f0b$c4d5bb30$4e813190$@dovetailsolar.com> <006001d38f41$6850fa60$38f2ef20$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Dave,             Next to the invoice for the cost of the battery (and new cables and labor and freight of course), post a large envelope next to it:  "NEXT BATTERY SAVINGS ACCOUNT, If you don't pay attention and ruin your battery in 2 years, insert $35/week.  If you care for your battery like a newborn baby, insert $5/week" .....applicable for 8, L-16's. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Thu Jan 18 09:41:19 2018 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 09:41:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter In-Reply-To: References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> <488F947A-7ABF-4A0D-8F6F-A8719868326B@gmail.com> <919E2893-3F60-4E31-A926-5238EB13B994@starlightsolar.com> <004e01d38f05$78ec5900$6ac50b00$@dovetailsolar.com> <006201d38f0b$c4d5bb30$4e813190$@dovetailsolar.com> <006001d38f41$6850fa60$38f2ef20$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <001401d3906a$674b7d50$35e277f0$@dovetailsolar.com> Thanks for all the input. I like the "new battery Fund" idea, we might have to implement something like that. Certainly helps incentivize the client to make every watt count. I agree the batteries are on their way out the door, but not quite there yet. After 3yrs where they were getting nearly daily cycling due to the extra loads the client installed. They are getting close to the expected 1,000Cycle life @50% DOD. We're going to work with them to try to extend the life until the end of the summer/fall next year, then look at the best battery option at that time for their situation. This is about to branch off into a subject for another thread, so I think I'll start a new one for the purpose of battery options for an unheated garage in a mixed hot/cold climate. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 Lead Systems Designer for: www.dovetailsolar.com Ph: 740-274-0139 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 11:47 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter Dave, Next to the invoice for the cost of the battery (and new cables and labor and freight of course), post a large envelope next to it: "NEXT BATTERY SAVINGS ACCOUNT, If you don't pay attention and ruin your battery in 2 years, insert $35/week. If you care for your battery like a newborn baby, insert $5/week" .....applicable for 8, L-16's. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Jan 18 11:18:17 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 11:18:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter In-Reply-To: References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> <488F947A-7ABF-4A0D-8F6F-A8719868326B@gmail.com> <919E2893-3F60-4E31-A926-5238EB13B994@starlightsolar.com> <004e01d38f05$78ec5900$6ac50b00$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: A Concorde AGM PVX 3050T recently failed in a bank of 8. Larry mentioned a couple of brands experiencing problems. These batteries are 4 years old and have been kept in float in an off grid system, never stressed. Hopefully Concorde batteries are not going the way of Trojan L-16s. Has anyone else had problems with Concorde? At 03:34 PM 1/16/2018, you wrote: >Seems to me that you are on the edge for that size battery in winter. If >the inverter is going to be on, converters are kind of nutty to me. I >could see having one 24V for the freezer but... I only use Concorde AGM's >when I have to. Is there an AH counter or Batt Mon? >Good Luck > >Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >"we go where powerlines don't" >http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >text 209 813 0060 > > > Answers to questions: > > > > > > > > The batteries are Discover EVL16A-A batteries. A single string of 8: 390AH > > @48V nominal. We had one fail last year, showing a significantly raised > > internal resistance when tested under a load then under charge. There is > > another one showing signs of weakness, but currently under a 30A draw it > > is only 0.12V lower than the highest battery in the mix, and 0.05V from > > the average battery voltage. Readings were: 6.0, 5.88, 6.0, 5.93, 5.92, > > 5.91, 5.93, 5.94 using a 1500W space heater as a constant load during the > > test. > > > > > > > > There are more loads than just networking and security that the client > > just recently disclosed. Gotta love the added loads to the design. There > > is a satellite DVR, 2x4 camera webcam systems, cell modem, simplisafe > > security system, chest freezer, 4 wifi range extenders to serve the less > > reliable security camera system, and 26W LED dusk-dawn light. I have > > already talked to them about thinking hard on what items can be removed > > for the winter at least (DVR is going away, and one of the camera systems > > too, likely the one requiring the wifi range extenders). All other seasons > > the system is fine. > > > > > > > > As for the DC converter(s) we would get a voltage specific converter for > > any unique voltages, depending on the # of unique items, we would likely > > abandon that approach if it got to bee too complicated. But thank you to > > all that provided guidance there. The meanwell units seemed to have the > > right specs to do the job if we go that route. We would also install them > > using a LVD of some sort, set somewhere above the standard low voltage > > cutoff of the rest of the system. We would also only go this route if all > > AC loads could be removed by doing this, allowing us to remove the 36w > > idle draw of the Outback. > > > > > > > > With Regards, > > > > > > > > Daniel Young, > > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > > > > > > Lead Systems Designer for: > > > > > > > > www.dovetailsolar.com > > > > Ph: 740-274-0139 > > > > > > > > We’ve completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects! Check out a few > > in our photo gallery: > > > > > http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric > > > > This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee. > > It may contain information which is legally privileged, confidential and > > exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this > > message, you may not disclose, print, copy or disseminate this message > > and/or the information contained in the message. If you have received > > this message in error, please reply and notify the sender (only) and > > delete this message along with any attachments. Unauthorized interception > > of this email is a violation of criminal laws and laws covering electronic > > communications privacy matters. > > > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > > Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems > > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 11:08 AM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter > > > > > > > > I too would like to know the make and model of batteries that are loosing > > capacity. In the past 5 years we have experienced abnormally high failures > > from 2 brands. > > > > > > > > Larry > > > > On Jan 15, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Jay > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Can you tell us: > > > > > > > > Battery make,model and size? > > > > > > > > Jay > > > > Peltz power. > > > > > > On Jan 15, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Daniel Young < > > dyoung at dovetailsolar.com> wrote: > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > > > > > I have a client that is running into an issue with his off grid system. > > The system is 3yrs old and they are starting to notice their AGM battery > > bank is loosing capacity, in reality they are noticing the generator is > > triggering more often. They want to try to lower the frequency of the > > generator triggering if possible. > > > > > > > > The system is not occupied during much of the winter (unconditioned, which > > further hurts the battery bank capacity), but the client has a security > > system with a cell modem installed and always on. This fortunately allows > > Optics-RE access, but unfortunately based on the FNDC shunt readings, is > > pulling a consistent 150w from the battery bank. Currently the network and > > security equipment is powered from standard wall-warts running on AC. > > > > > > > > I’d like to help the client extend the time between generator cycles by > > taking the network loads and powering them directly from the battery bank > > (the loads are all 12Vdc). Does anyone have any recommendations for a > > decent quality DC_DC converter that would be applicable? Given inverter > > losses and the efficiency of the typical wall-wart, I’d expect the > > running loads to be closer to 80-100w rather than the 150w we see now. The > > intent is to then take the inverter into search mode, or even switch it > > off, to remove the tare losses there, and also to take all the wasted > > power from the standard wall-warts and go to a single, more efficient dc > > power supply. > > > > > > > > Any recommendations on a good DC_DC converter are appreciated. > > > > > > > > With Regards, > > > > > > > > Daniel Young, > > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > > Dovetail Solar and Wind > > > > > > > > __________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: > > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > >Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >"we go where powerlines don't" >http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >text 209 813 0060 > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 11:34:41 2018 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 11:34:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller Message-ID: Hi All, Anyone have feedback/review of the 600 volt Schneider Charge Controller that they'd care to share? I have an existing Conext XW+ off-grid system with combox communication setup which currently has about 1.5 kW of solar feeding through 2 MX60s (no hub). We'll be adding about 5kW (on a TPM about 150' away) and I'm trying to decide if overall it would be better to use the Schneider 600v (which I haven't used before, although I have serviced the 150v XW with no real complaints). Typically I would use a Classic200, but given the ability to integrate with the XW6848 and communicate through the Combox for more offsite visibility, I'm considering the Schneider, but only if it's not going to provide me with the benefit of added service calls. TIA! Howie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Thu Jan 18 11:42:03 2018 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:42:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter In-Reply-To: <20180118161826.BD134107C8F@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> <488F947A-7ABF-4A0D-8F6F-A8719868326B@gmail.com> <919E2893-3F60-4E31-A926-5238EB13B994@starlightsolar.com> <004e01d38f05$78ec5900$6ac50b00$@dovetailsolar.com> <20180118161826.BD134107C8F@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <1eda6226-e18d-57ec-2698-0f3524e3c673@aprsworld.com> On 1/18/2018 10:18 AM, Drake wrote: > A Concorde AGM PVX 3050T recently failed in a bank of 8. Larry mentioned > a couple of brands experiencing problems. These batteries are 4 years > old and have been kept in float in an off grid system, never stressed. > Hopefully Concorde batteries are not going the way of Trojan L-16s. Has > anyone else had problems with Concorde? About three or four years ago we started experiencing problems with Concorde PVX batteries. I use them in smaller systems. Typically in their range of smallest to around 200 amp/hours. Telemetry sort of applications with small wind and/or PV powering small loads. Lots of floating and generally pleasant cycles. Problems: Leaking battery terminals when batteries are laid on their sides. Low capacity. Not testing at anywhere near their rated capacity after just a few cycles. Dead on arrival, even with current date code. Seemingly high self discharged. Full charged battery reading 10.5 volts after 6 weeks of storage. I had a rash of these sort of problems. Perhaps 10 batteries out of 30 over the course of a year. The distributor was pleasant and replaced batteries at no charge. But I decided the Concorde batteries didn't seem to be acting as premium as they used to. So I switched to bog standard AGM batteries for most small applications. Universal Battery and PowerSonic and our battery distributor's house brand of Chinese batteries. Tried some Full River batteries last year and they seem to be doing fine. The funny thing is I have small systems from early 2000's still running on their original PVX batteries. But I don't feel that would be possible with the batteries I was getting when I finally gave up. -- -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Thu Jan 18 11:51:40 2018 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 11:51:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0a2a344abdc7a1b079291e4ddb45b1cf.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> FYI Howie, Schneider engineers are actively working on a communication solutions between the Schneider Xanbus and Midnite controllers. I've been talking to an engineer working on it who says it should be ready very soon. It will also work with the combox for remote monitoring. Daryl > Hi All, > Anyone have feedback/review of the 600 volt Schneider Charge Controller > that they'd care to share? I have an existing Conext XW+ off-grid system > with combox communication setup which currently has about 1.5 kW of solar > feeding through 2 MX60s (no hub). We'll be adding about 5kW (on a TPM > about > 150' away) and I'm trying to decide if overall it would be better to use > the Schneider 600v (which I haven't used before, although I have serviced > the 150v XW with no real complaints). Typically I would use a Classic200, > but given the ability to integrate with the XW6848 and communicate through > the Combox for more offsite visibility, I'm considering the Schneider, but > only if it's not going to provide me with the benefit of added service > calls. > TIA! > Howie > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jan 18 11:53:22 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 08:53:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59ee91f7a019fae07d1b06f9edc2a0c7.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> You should use the Schneider 600 -80A controller in an XW system. All the data will be as a system and it will be easy for you wire and easier to make changes later if the system grows. I did the beta testing for Schneider on this in 2010 and have used about 90 of them. I often load 6KW of solar in. Oh yes, none have failed. They are built like a tank! Pix attached, will it work? > Hi All, > Anyone have feedback/review of the 600 volt Schneider Charge Controller > that they'd care to share? I have an existing Conext XW+ off-grid system > with combox communication setup which currently has about 1.5 kW of solar > feeding through 2 MX60s (no hub). We'll be adding about 5kW (on a TPM > about > 150' away) and I'm trying to decide if overall it would be better to use > the Schneider 600v (which I haven't used before, although I have serviced > the 150v XW with no real complaints). Typically I would use a Classic200, > but given the ability to integrate with the XW6848 and communicate through > the Combox for more offsite visibility, I'm considering the Schneider, but > only if it's not going to provide me with the benefit of added service > calls. > TIA! > Howie > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: LG Chem Li-ion home battery.PNG Type: image/png Size: 532304 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jan 18 11:58:14 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 08:58:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter In-Reply-To: <1eda6226-e18d-57ec-2698-0f3524e3c673@aprsworld.com> References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> <488F947A-7ABF-4A0D-8F6F-A8719868326B@gmail.com> <919E2893-3F60-4E31-A926-5238EB13B994@starlightsolar.com> <004e01d38f05$78ec5900$6ac50b00$@dovetailsolar.com> <20180118161826.BD134107C8F@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <1eda6226-e18d-57ec-2698-0f3524e3c673@aprsworld.com> Message-ID: <35d196cd02995ca10886d3c9e4b952a8.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Wow that is bad! I only have used their 400AH 6V and prefer a wet battery from Surrette, US, or Trojan for Lead Acid. > On 1/18/2018 10:18 AM, Drake wrote: >> A Concorde AGM PVX 3050T recently failed in a bank of 8. Larry mentioned >> a couple of brands experiencing problems. These batteries are 4 years >> old and have been kept in float in an off grid system, never stressed. >> Hopefully Concorde batteries are not going the way of Trojan L-16s. Has >> anyone else had problems with Concorde? > > About three or four years ago we started experiencing problems with > Concorde PVX batteries. I use them in smaller systems. Typically in > their range of smallest to around 200 amp/hours. Telemetry sort of > applications with small wind and/or PV powering small loads. Lots of > floating and generally pleasant cycles. > > Problems: > Leaking battery terminals when batteries are laid on their sides. > > Low capacity. Not testing at anywhere near their rated capacity after > just a few cycles. > > Dead on arrival, even with current date code. > > Seemingly high self discharged. Full charged battery reading 10.5 volts > after 6 weeks of storage. > > I had a rash of these sort of problems. Perhaps 10 batteries out of 30 > over the course of a year. The distributor was pleasant and replaced > batteries at no charge. But I decided the Concorde batteries didn't seem > to be acting as premium as they used to. So I switched to bog standard > AGM batteries for most small applications. Universal Battery and > PowerSonic and our battery distributor's house brand of Chinese > batteries. Tried some Full River batteries last year and they seem to be > doing fine. > > The funny thing is I have small systems from early 2000's still running > on their original PVX batteries. But I don't feel that would be possible > with the batteries I was getting when I finally gave up. > > > > > -- > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > www.aprsworld.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 12:11:53 2018 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 12:11:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller In-Reply-To: <59ee91f7a019fae07d1b06f9edc2a0c7.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <59ee91f7a019fae07d1b06f9edc2a0c7.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: Thanks Dave! That was my thought as well, just wanted to make sure I wasn't inviting a new host of problems with a new (to me) piece of equipment. Why the XW150 in this system as well? Howie On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > You should use the Schneider 600 -80A controller in an XW system. All the > data will be as a system and it will be easy for you wire and easier to > make changes later if the system grows. I did the beta testing for > Schneider on this in 2010 and have used about 90 of them. I often load 6KW > of solar in. Oh yes, none have failed. They are built like a tank! Pix > attached, will it work? > > > Hi All, > > Anyone have feedback/review of the 600 volt Schneider Charge Controller > > that they'd care to share? I have an existing Conext XW+ off-grid system > > with combox communication setup which currently has about 1.5 kW of solar > > feeding through 2 MX60s (no hub). We'll be adding about 5kW (on a TPM > > about > > 150' away) and I'm trying to decide if overall it would be better to use > > the Schneider 600v (which I haven't used before, although I have serviced > > the 150v XW with no real complaints). Typically I would use a > Classic200, > > but given the ability to integrate with the XW6848 and communicate > through > > the Combox for more offsite visibility, I'm considering the Schneider, > but > > only if it's not going to provide me with the benefit of added service > > calls. > > TIA! > > Howie > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 12:15:34 2018 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 12:15:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller In-Reply-To: <0a2a344abdc7a1b079291e4ddb45b1cf.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> References: <0a2a344abdc7a1b079291e4ddb45b1cf.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: Boy, that would be a bonus! I like sticking with products that have worked for me, although I am intrigued by the XW 600vDC. Any word on the release date for Midnite's inverter? On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 11:51 AM, wrote: > FYI Howie, > Schneider engineers are actively working on a communication solutions > between the Schneider Xanbus and Midnite controllers. I've been talking > to an engineer working on it who says it should be ready very soon. It > will also work with the combox for remote monitoring. > > Daryl > > > > Hi All, > > Anyone have feedback/review of the 600 volt Schneider Charge Controller > > that they'd care to share? I have an existing Conext XW+ off-grid system > > with combox communication setup which currently has about 1.5 kW of solar > > feeding through 2 MX60s (no hub). We'll be adding about 5kW (on a TPM > > about > > 150' away) and I'm trying to decide if overall it would be better to use > > the Schneider 600v (which I haven't used before, although I have serviced > > the 150v XW with no real complaints). Typically I would use a > Classic200, > > but given the ability to integrate with the XW6848 and communicate > through > > the Combox for more offsite visibility, I'm considering the Schneider, > but > > only if it's not going to provide me with the benefit of added service > > calls. > > TIA! > > Howie > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 12:34:49 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:34:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller In-Reply-To: References: <0a2a344abdc7a1b079291e4ddb45b1cf.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: I'll vouch for Schneider's 600A charge controller as well. We don't have as many as Dave has out there but no failures. Seems to be a solid device. Works well with the PDP too. Good Luck! On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Howie Michaelson < Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: > Boy, that would be a bonus! I like sticking with products that have worked > for me, although I am intrigued by the XW 600vDC. > > Any word on the release date for Midnite's inverter? > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 11:51 AM, wrote: > >> FYI Howie, >> Schneider engineers are actively working on a communication solutions >> between the Schneider Xanbus and Midnite controllers. I've been talking >> to an engineer working on it who says it should be ready very soon. It >> will also work with the combox for remote monitoring. >> >> Daryl >> >> >> > Hi All, >> > Anyone have feedback/review of the 600 volt Schneider Charge Controller >> > that they'd care to share? I have an existing Conext XW+ off-grid >> system >> > with combox communication setup which currently has about 1.5 kW of >> solar >> > feeding through 2 MX60s (no hub). We'll be adding about 5kW (on a TPM >> > about >> > 150' away) and I'm trying to decide if overall it would be better to use >> > the Schneider 600v (which I haven't used before, although I have >> serviced >> > the 150v XW with no real complaints). Typically I would use a >> Classic200, >> > but given the ability to integrate with the XW6848 and communicate >> through >> > the Combox for more offsite visibility, I'm considering the Schneider, >> but >> > only if it's not going to provide me with the benefit of added service >> > calls. >> > TIA! >> > Howie >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or >> g/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Jan 18 12:44:00 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 12:44:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller In-Reply-To: References: <0a2a344abdc7a1b079291e4ddb45b1cf.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> Message-ID: <93d810cd-2a99-229c-cedb-dd1f112068eb@entech-engineering.com> We have had two in the field for two years with noproblems.  They allowed us to run 375feet with conductors that was substantially smaller than what would have otherwise been possible. Chris On 1/18/2018 12:34 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > I'll vouch for Schneider's 600A charge controller as well.  We don't > have as many as Dave has out there but no failures.  Seems to be a > solid device.  Works well with the PDP too. > > Good Luck! > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Howie Michaelson > > wrote: > > Boy, that would be a bonus! I like sticking with products that > have worked for me, although I am intrigued by the XW 600vDC. > > Any word on the release date for Midnite's inverter? > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 11:51 AM, > wrote: > > FYI Howie, >    Schneider engineers are actively working on a communication > solutions > between the Schneider Xanbus and Midnite controllers. I've > been talking > to an engineer working on it who says it should be ready very > soon. It > will also work with the combox for remote monitoring. > > Daryl > > > > Hi All, > > Anyone have feedback/review of the 600 volt Schneider Charge > Controller > > that they'd care to share?  I have an existing Conext XW+ > off-grid system > > with combox communication setup which currently has about > 1.5 kW of solar > > feeding through 2 MX60s (no hub). We'll be adding about 5kW > (on a TPM > > about > > 150' away) and I'm trying to decide if overall it would be > better to use > > the Schneider 600v (which I haven't used before, although I > have serviced > > the 150v XW with no real complaints). Typically I would use > a Classic200, > > but given the ability to integrate with the XW6848 and > communicate through > > the Combox for more offsite visibility, I'm considering the > Schneider, but > > only if it's not going to provide me with the benefit of > added service > > calls. > > TIA! > > Howie > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE Entech Engineering, Inc. 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jan 18 13:00:06 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:00:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller In-Reply-To: <93d810cd-2a99-229c-cedb-dd1f112068eb@entech-engineering.com> References: <0a2a344abdc7a1b079291e4ddb45b1cf.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> <93d810cd-2a99-229c-cedb-dd1f112068eb@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <87807a7d5cb23f5f4825e81d9a7d85d0.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> My record is 1500 feet with the mppt-80-600v. I don't have a generator so I am a bit different:) the pix is working again! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > We have had two in the field for two years with noproblems.  They > allowed us to run 375feet with conductors that was substantially smaller > than what would have otherwise been possible. Chris > > > On 1/18/2018 12:34 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> I'll vouch for Schneider's 600A charge controller as well.  We don't >> have as many as Dave has out there but no failures.  Seems to be a >> solid device.  Works well with the PDP too. >> >> Good Luck! >> >> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Howie Michaelson >> > wrote: >> >> Boy, that would be a bonus! I like sticking with products that >> have worked for me, although I am intrigued by the XW 600vDC. >> >> Any word on the release date for Midnite's inverter? >> >> On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 11:51 AM, > > wrote: >> >> FYI Howie, >>    Schneider engineers are actively working on a communication >> solutions >> between the Schneider Xanbus and Midnite controllers. I've >> been talking >> to an engineer working on it who says it should be ready very >> soon. It >> will also work with the combox for remote monitoring. >> >> Daryl >> >> >> > Hi All, >> > Anyone have feedback/review of the 600 volt Schneider Charge >> Controller >> > that they'd care to share?  I have an existing Conext XW+ >> off-grid system >> > with combox communication setup which currently has about >> 1.5 kW of solar >> > feeding through 2 MX60s (no hub). We'll be adding about 5kW >> (on a TPM >> > about >> > 150' away) and I'm trying to decide if overall it would be >> better to use >> > the Schneider 600v (which I haven't used before, although I >> have serviced >> > the 150v XW with no real complaints). Typically I would use >> a Classic200, >> > but given the ability to integrate with the XW6848 and >> communicate through >> > the Combox for more offsite visibility, I'm considering the >> Schneider, but >> > only if it's not going to provide me with the benefit of >> added service >> > calls. >> > TIA! >> > Howie >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> * >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> * >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -- > Christopher Warfel, PE > Entech Engineering, Inc. > 401-466-8978 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: saturday bridge.PNG Type: image/png Size: 45097 bytes Desc: not available URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Jan 18 17:38:17 2018 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 22:38:17 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie, I have installed about 10 of these and all have worked well, longest operating unit about 3 years old. My only complaint is the 600V input breakers are not really thought through, as my understanding is code does not permit 600VDC within the PDP, Midnite, etc enclosure. So we use a SquareD CH361 external fused disconnect and keep all the 600V wiring external to the PDP. Curious how others approach that. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 250-846-9888 Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: January-18-18 8:35 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller Hi All, Anyone have feedback/review of the 600 volt Schneider Charge Controller that they'd care to share? I have an existing Conext XW+ off-grid system with combox communication setup which currently has about 1.5 kW of solar feeding through 2 MX60s (no hub). We'll be adding about 5kW (on a TPM about 150' away) and I'm trying to decide if overall it would be better to use the Schneider 600v (which I haven't used before, although I have serviced the 150v XW with no real complaints). Typically I would use a Classic200, but given the ability to integrate with the XW6848 and communicate through the Combox for more offsite visibility, I'm considering the Schneider, but only if it's not going to provide me with the benefit of added service calls. TIA! Howie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jan 18 17:58:37 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:58:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1bd6ef88baed721520a2fe11109fce55.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Yep same here the ubiquitous CH361 and a midnite SPD and a Delta. I very rarely need more than 2 strings so fuses and not used. I would never want 600v floating around in any enclosure with other electrical code or not! I know grid -tie does this all the time but not for offgrid. IMHO. There are a few other choices I have had to use I can dig up if needed. PM me. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Hi Howie, > > I have installed about 10 of these and all have worked well, longest > operating unit about 3 years old. My only complaint is the 600V input > breakers are not really thought through, as my understanding is code does > not permit 600VDC within the PDP, Midnite, etc enclosure. So we use a > SquareD CH361 external fused disconnect and keep all the 600V wiring > external to the PDP. Curious how others approach that. > > Kevin Pegg > EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. > 37471 Hwy 16 E > Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 > 250-846-9888 > Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Howie Michaelson > Sent: January-18-18 8:35 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller > > Hi All, > Anyone have feedback/review of the 600 volt Schneider Charge Controller > that they'd care to share? I have an existing Conext XW+ off-grid system > with combox communication setup which currently has about 1.5 kW of solar > feeding through 2 MX60s (no hub). We'll be adding about 5kW (on a TPM > about 150' away) and I'm trying to decide if overall it would be better to > use the Schneider 600v (which I haven't used before, although I have > serviced the 150v XW with no real complaints). Typically I would use a > Classic200, but given the ability to integrate with the XW6848 and > communicate through the Combox for more offsite visibility, I'm > considering the Schneider, but only if it's not going to provide me with > the benefit of added service calls. > TIA! > Howie > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 23:17:51 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 20:17:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller In-Reply-To: <1bd6ef88baed721520a2fe11109fce55.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <1bd6ef88baed721520a2fe11109fce55.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <54104CC4-1BE0-4967-89DD-D69D7E7E9B6A@gmail.com> HI All, I”m curious how you are all dealing with the arc fault requirement for CC’s? thx jay peltz power > On Jan 18, 2018, at 2:58 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Yep same here the ubiquitous CH361 and a midnite SPD and a Delta. I very > rarely need more than 2 strings so fuses and not used. I would never want > 600v floating around in any enclosure with other electrical code or not! I > know grid -tie does this all the time but not for offgrid. IMHO. > > There are a few other choices I have had to use I can dig up if needed. PM > me. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > >> Hi Howie, >> >> I have installed about 10 of these and all have worked well, longest >> operating unit about 3 years old. My only complaint is the 600V input >> breakers are not really thought through, as my understanding is code does >> not permit 600VDC within the PDP, Midnite, etc enclosure. So we use a >> SquareD CH361 external fused disconnect and keep all the 600V wiring >> external to the PDP. Curious how others approach that. >> >> Kevin Pegg >> EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. >> 37471 Hwy 16 E >> Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 >> 250-846-9888 >> Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of Howie Michaelson >> Sent: January-18-18 8:35 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller >> >> Hi All, >> Anyone have feedback/review of the 600 volt Schneider Charge Controller >> that they'd care to share? I have an existing Conext XW+ off-grid system >> with combox communication setup which currently has about 1.5 kW of solar >> feeding through 2 MX60s (no hub). We'll be adding about 5kW (on a TPM >> about 150' away) and I'm trying to decide if overall it would be better to >> use the Schneider 600v (which I haven't used before, although I have >> serviced the 150v XW with no real complaints). Typically I would use a >> Classic200, but given the ability to integrate with the XW6848 and >> communicate through the Combox for more offsite visibility, I'm >> considering the Schneider, but only if it's not going to provide me with >> the benefit of added service calls. >> TIA! >> Howie >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 08:13:28 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 09:13:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1,000V combiners Message-ID: We are looking at Fronius Symo 24.0-3 480 for a 120KW rooftop project but I am having problems identifying a 1,000V fused disco combiner for the six strings. I'm looking for suggestions for suitable products. -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 08:45:14 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 09:45:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] automatic transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think Radians are redundant anyway, if you parallel the output they will keep going when one fails. Also, the 8KW are two x 4KW modules, both can function independently. I know this because we lost one at home and kept going until a replacement arrived. On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 7:03 PM, jay wrote: > HI all, > > I’m doing a project with 2 radians in a redundant configuration. > Each one would go into a transfer switch to power the common load. > > I’m looking for a good, fast transfer switch. 30amp 120/240 is fine. > And maybe a mechanical feature as well. > Code isn’t an issue > Will be off grid, remote mexico. > > There is the Iota of course, but was just looking for options. > > thx in advance, > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Fri Jan 19 09:09:34 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 09:09:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] automatic transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay, I've been using the ASCO Series 185 for years with the Radian, single or dual. With some fine tuning I've gotten the transfer time down to around 1 second. The have a manual switch built inside of it. They also offer a service rated (with CB) or not. Zero failures to date. Christopher On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 8:45 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > I think Radians are redundant anyway, if you parallel the output they will > keep going when one fails. Also, the 8KW are two x 4KW modules, both can > function independently. I know this because we lost one at home and kept > going until a replacement arrived. > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 7:03 PM, jay wrote: > >> HI all, >> >> I’m doing a project with 2 radians in a redundant configuration. >> Each one would go into a transfer switch to power the common load. >> >> I’m looking for a good, fast transfer switch. 30amp 120/240 is fine. >> And maybe a mechanical feature as well. >> Code isn’t an issue >> Will be off grid, remote mexico. >> >> There is the Iota of course, but was just looking for options. >> >> thx in advance, >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 <(264)%20235-5670> > 869.662.5670 <(869)%20662-5670> > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Jan 19 10:11:33 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 07:11:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1,000V combiners In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris - Two ideas: One, call Fronius to see what they recommend. We haven't used this particular inverter, but we've used lots of the smaller Symos and Pirmos and with some of them you can fit fuse holders right in the wire box onto a din rail. Otherwise, I've had good results working with SolarBOS. August Luminalt On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 5:13 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > We are looking at Fronius Symo 24.0-3 480 for a 120KW rooftop project but > I am having problems identifying a 1,000V fused disco combiner for the six > strings. I'm looking for suggestions for suitable products. > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Fri Jan 19 10:31:00 2018 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 08:31:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1,000V combiners In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, Although we've primarily used it only for fusing strings and not for combining strings OnSite Energy has had success with the Midnite Solar MNPV10 1000V. Our electricians liked the size and weight of the box and if you're already familiar with Midnite combiners such as the PV6 it's very straightforward. You state you're looking for a "fused disco combiner" however so perhaps you need something more robust than the touch-safe disconnect aspect? If so this product is obviously not for you, but I thought I'd suggest it in case it's useful. Take care, Sam -- Sam Haraldson, Installation Manager Office: 406.551.6135 Cell: 406.249.6841 sam at onsiteenergyinc.com onsiteenergyinc.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jan 19 10:36:30 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 07:36:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] automatic transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57bacd3d48d65ecc03613533e128e50d.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I think so also for the same reason Chris! So I guess I don't understand why you need the external transfer switch Jay? Is not the internal radian transfer switch the less is more for offgrid? --Dave > I think Radians are redundant anyway, if you parallel the output they will > keep going when one fails. Also, the 8KW are two x 4KW modules, both can > function independently. I know this because we lost one at home and kept > going until a replacement arrived. > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 7:03 PM, jay wrote: > >> HI all, >> >> I’m doing a project with 2 radians in a redundant configuration. >> Each one would go into a transfer switch to power the common load. >> >> I’m looking for a good, fast transfer switch. 30amp 120/240 is fine. >> And maybe a mechanical feature as well. >> Code isn’t an issue >> Will be off grid, remote mexico. >> >> There is the Iota of course, but was just looking for options. >> >> thx in advance, >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 > 869.662.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 10:42:26 2018 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 07:42:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller In-Reply-To: <54104CC4-1BE0-4967-89DD-D69D7E7E9B6A@gmail.com> References: <1bd6ef88baed721520a2fe11109fce55.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <54104CC4-1BE0-4967-89DD-D69D7E7E9B6A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Of the ten or so I've put in, only one failure so far, and Schneider was QUICK to replace it with little question (leaving me with a faint impression there was an issue they identified, but didn't want to fess up to) otherwise, I am quite pleased with the large voltage window. Joe Nelson C-46/C-10 #1004568 Project Manager S.E.G. www.sustainableenergygroup.com On Jan 18, 2018 21:11, "jay" wrote: > HI All, > > I”m curious how you are all dealing with the arc fault requirement for > CC’s? > > thx > jay > > peltz power > > > On Jan 18, 2018, at 2:58 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > > > > Yep same here the ubiquitous CH361 and a midnite SPD and a Delta. I very > > rarely need more than 2 strings so fuses and not used. I would never want > > 600v floating around in any enclosure with other electrical code or not! > I > > know grid -tie does this all the time but not for offgrid. IMHO. > > > > There are a few other choices I have had to use I can dig up if needed. > PM > > me. > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > > >> Hi Howie, > >> > >> I have installed about 10 of these and all have worked well, longest > >> operating unit about 3 years old. My only complaint is the 600V input > >> breakers are not really thought through, as my understanding is code > does > >> not permit 600VDC within the PDP, Midnite, etc enclosure. So we use a > >> SquareD CH361 external fused disconnect and keep all the 600V wiring > >> external to the PDP. Curious how others approach that. > >> > >> Kevin Pegg > >> EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. > >> 37471 Hwy 16 E > >> Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 > >> 250-846-9888 > >> Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca > >> > >> > >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > >> Behalf Of Howie Michaelson > >> Sent: January-18-18 8:35 AM > >> To: RE-wrenches > >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller > >> > >> Hi All, > >> Anyone have feedback/review of the 600 volt Schneider Charge Controller > >> that they'd care to share? I have an existing Conext XW+ off-grid > system > >> with combox communication setup which currently has about 1.5 kW of > solar > >> feeding through 2 MX60s (no hub). We'll be adding about 5kW (on a TPM > >> about 150' away) and I'm trying to decide if overall it would be better > to > >> use the Schneider 600v (which I haven't used before, although I have > >> serviced the 150v XW with no real complaints). Typically I would use a > >> Classic200, but given the ability to integrate with the XW6848 and > >> communicate through the Combox for more offsite visibility, I'm > >> considering the Schneider, but only if it's not going to provide me with > >> the benefit of added service calls. > >> TIA! > >> Howie > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jan 19 11:09:47 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 08:09:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller In-Reply-To: References: <1bd6ef88baed721520a2fe11109fce55.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <54104CC4-1BE0-4967-89DD-D69D7E7E9B6A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Probably the first firmware change and they knew it was coming. Just a guess. They have been bullet proof except the addition of Combox made them susceptible to an issue that was fixed in the combox. Anyone with combox should do the update as it really can make the system recover from issues such as grid/generator glitches into xanbus. > Of the ten or so I've put in, only one failure so far, and Schneider was > QUICK to replace it with little question (leaving me with a faint > impression there was an issue they identified, but didn't want to fess up > to) otherwise, I am quite pleased with the large voltage window. > > Joe Nelson > C-46/C-10 #1004568 > Project Manager S.E.G. > www.sustainableenergygroup.com > > On Jan 18, 2018 21:11, "jay" wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I”m curious how you are all dealing with the arc fault requirement for >> CC’s? >> >> thx >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> > On Jan 18, 2018, at 2:58 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < >> offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: >> > >> > Yep same here the ubiquitous CH361 and a midnite SPD and a Delta. I >> very >> > rarely need more than 2 strings so fuses and not used. I would never >> want >> > 600v floating around in any enclosure with other electrical code or >> not! >> I >> > know grid -tie does this all the time but not for offgrid. IMHO. >> > >> > There are a few other choices I have had to use I can dig up if >> needed. >> PM >> > me. >> > >> > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> > "we go where powerlines don't" >> > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> > text 209 813 0060 >> > >> >> Hi Howie, >> >> >> >> I have installed about 10 of these and all have worked well, longest >> >> operating unit about 3 years old. My only complaint is the 600V input >> >> breakers are not really thought through, as my understanding is code >> does >> >> not permit 600VDC within the PDP, Midnite, etc enclosure. So we use a >> >> SquareD CH361 external fused disconnect and keep all the 600V wiring >> >> external to the PDP. Curious how others approach that. >> >> >> >> Kevin Pegg >> >> EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. >> >> 37471 Hwy 16 E >> >> Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 >> >> 250-846-9888 >> >> Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca >> >> >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> On >> >> Behalf Of Howie Michaelson >> >> Sent: January-18-18 8:35 AM >> >> To: RE-wrenches >> >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller >> >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> Anyone have feedback/review of the 600 volt Schneider Charge >> Controller >> >> that they'd care to share? I have an existing Conext XW+ off-grid >> system >> >> with combox communication setup which currently has about 1.5 kW of >> solar >> >> feeding through 2 MX60s (no hub). We'll be adding about 5kW (on a TPM >> >> about 150' away) and I'm trying to decide if overall it would be >> better >> to >> >> use the Schneider 600v (which I haven't used before, although I have >> >> serviced the 150v XW with no real complaints). Typically I would use >> a >> >> Classic200, but given the ability to integrate with the XW6848 and >> >> communicate through the Combox for more offsite visibility, I'm >> >> considering the Schneider, but only if it's not going to provide me >> with >> >> the benefit of added service calls. >> >> TIA! >> >> Howie >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> > "we go where powerlines don't" >> > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> > text 209 813 0060 >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Jan 19 11:59:44 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 09:59:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Battery failures In-Reply-To: <20180118161826.D9743107C63@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> <488F947A-7ABF-4A0D-8F6F-A8719868326B@gmail.com> <919E2893-3F60-4E31-A926-5238EB13B994@starlightsolar.com> <004e01d38f05$78ec5900$6ac50b00$@dovetailsolar.com> <20180118161826.D9743107C63@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Drake, We have at least a dozen systems that failed early from lost capacity over the last 2 years with 2-4 year old battery banks. The AGM failures are all Lifeline battery made by Concorde. Lifeline and my distributor both told me I was “the only one” with failures. I dropped Lifeline battery after being a dealer for 16 years and many hundreds of systems installed. Historically we had seen 7-10 years average life from battery banks that we installed. One regular customer is at 12 years and still going. I have a sense of vindication now hearing from others about Concorde capacity issues. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Jan 18, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Drake wrote: A Concorde AGM PVX 3050T recently failed in a bank of 8. Larry mentioned a couple of brands experiencing problems. These batteries are 4 years old and have been kept in float in an off grid system, never stressed. Hopefully Concorde batteries are not going the way of Trojan L-16s. Has anyone else had problems with Concorde? From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Jan 19 10:44:39 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 10:44:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1,000V combiners Message-ID: Shoals Technology Group makes 1000V combiner/disconnects, but may be oversized for what you are looking for. GlennSent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typographical errors. ------ Original message------From: Chris MasonDate: Fri, Jan 19, 2018 8:13 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] 1,000V combiners We are looking at Fronius Symo  24.0-3 480 for a 120KW rooftop project but I am having problems identifying a 1,000V fused disco combiner for the six strings. I'm looking for suggestions for suitable products. -- Chris MasonNABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™Solar Design EngineerGenerac Generators Industrial technician -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Jan 19 12:10:50 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 12:10:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Battery failures Message-ID: So the Lifeline models, not the SunXtender models? GlennSent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typographical errors. ------ Original message------From: Starlight Solar Power SystemsDate: Fri, Jan 19, 2018 12:02 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Battery failures Drake, We have at least a dozen systems that failed early from lost capacity over the last 2 years with 2-4 year old battery banks. The AGM failures are all Lifeline battery made by Concorde. Lifeline and my distributor both told me I was “the only one” with failures. I dropped Lifeline battery after being a dealer for 16 years and many hundreds of systems installed. Historically we had seen 7-10 years average life from battery banks that we installed. One regular customer is at 12 years and still going. I have a sense of vindication now hearing from others about Concorde capacity issues. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Jan 18, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Drake wrote: A Concorde AGM PVX 3050T recently failed in a bank of 8. Larry mentioned a couple of brands experiencing problems. These batteries are 4 years old and have been kept in float in an off grid system, never stressed. Hopefully Concorde batteries are not going the way of Trojan L-16s. Has anyone else had problems with Concorde? _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 10:46:30 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 07:46:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] automatic transfer switch In-Reply-To: <57bacd3d48d65ecc03613533e128e50d.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <57bacd3d48d65ecc03613533e128e50d.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: HI Dave and Chris, Good points, however. I’ve had radian board failures which shut it all down. You are correct if a power module goes down then it will still continue working. This project doesn’t need telecomm redundancy but close. And if the inverter shuts down then the AGS won’t start. So yea maybe a bit overkill but its a long long ways to go for a site visit. And again, 50 amps max ( 30 really) and would be good to have built in mechanical bypass. Nema 1 thanks, jay > On Jan 19, 2018, at 7:36 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I think so also for the same reason Chris! So I guess I don't understand > why you need the external transfer switch Jay? > Is not the internal radian transfer switch the less is more for offgrid? > --Dave > >> I think Radians are redundant anyway, if you parallel the output they will >> keep going when one fails. Also, the 8KW are two x 4KW modules, both can >> function independently. I know this because we lost one at home and kept >> going until a replacement arrived. >> >> On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 7:03 PM, jay > wrote: >> >>> HI all, >>> >>> I’m doing a project with 2 radians in a redundant configuration. >>> Each one would go into a transfer switch to power the common load. >>> >>> I’m looking for a good, fast transfer switch. 30amp 120/240 is fine. >>> And maybe a mechanical feature as well. >>> Code isn’t an issue >>> Will be off grid, remote mexico. >>> >>> There is the Iota of course, but was just looking for options. >>> >>> thx in advance, >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches . >>> org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installerâ„¢ >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com > >> 264.235.5670 >> 869.662.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Jan 19 14:32:59 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 12:32:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Air X Turbine with Positive Ground Message-ID: Hi All; I am doing a Primus Air 30 (same as old Air X) installation in a couple of days.  This is for a telecomm system that is Positive grounded 48 v.  I had assumed these had been used for many years in Telecomm systems over the years, but as I perused the manual last night, it said that negative had to be bonded to ground or "severe damage to the turbine may result".  I called Primus tech support, but they were not able to answer the question yet, and I need to know ASAP to cancel the installation. Thanks Again for your Help oh *RE*/vered/ *Wrenches*, Ray Walters Remote Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Jan 19 14:55:17 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 14:55:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Battery failures In-Reply-To: References: <00e201d38e3f$e9307ff0$bb917fd0$@dovetailsolar.com> <488F947A-7ABF-4A0D-8F6F-A8719868326B@gmail.com> <919E2893-3F60-4E31-A926-5238EB13B994@starlightsolar.com> <004e01d38f05$78ec5900$6ac50b00$@dovetailsolar.com> <20180118161826.D9743107C63@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: We stopped installing them when they would not honor a warranty issue. We felt thattheir warranty was not commensurate with the risk we and our customer's faced. On 1/19/2018 11:59 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Drake, > > We have at least a dozen systems that failed early from lost capacity over the last 2 years with 2-4 year old battery banks. The AGM failures are all Lifeline battery made by Concorde. > > Lifeline and my distributor both told me I was “the only one” with failures. I dropped Lifeline battery after being a dealer for 16 years and many hundreds of systems installed. Historically we had seen 7-10 years average life from battery banks that we installed. One regular customer is at 12 years and still going. I have a sense of vindication now hearing from others about Concorde capacity issues. > > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > (928) 342-9103 > > > > > > On Jan 18, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Drake wrote: > > A Concorde AGM PVX 3050T recently failed in a bank of 8. Larry mentioned a couple of brands experiencing problems. These batteries are 4 years old and have been kept in float in an off grid system, never stressed. Hopefully Concorde batteries are not going the way of Trojan L-16s. Has anyone else had problems with Concorde? > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE Entech Engineering, Inc. 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Fri Jan 19 15:08:55 2018 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 13:08:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Battery failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As far as I know, they are the same battery with different label. -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 10:10 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > So the Lifeline models, not the SunXtender models? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Fri Jan 19 16:33:08 2018 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 13:33:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Battery failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <026b01d3916d$19df6550$4d9e2ff0$@solarwindworks.com> Hi fellow Wrenches, I had to ask this question a few times about the difference between the Lifeline GPL-L16T and SunXtender PVX4050HT batteries from Concorde with our sales rep before I received a quasi-answer; The lifeline batteries are for RV and MARINE applications Constant cycling up down KEEP in mind they are both 400 amp 6 volt batteries The sunxtender will do the same cycle capability The difference is (let’s say in the cake mix ) the paste in the plates as the sunxtenser are on float charge all the time They tend to hold up longer in solar applications I really think you should stick with the sunxtender as you are in the solar business There was no price difference, just stocking differences at the time, so we ordered the Lifelines for that last job. We haven’t had any of the SunXtenders or the Lifelines fail yet, and our oldest SunXtender out there is a 2002 battery, still going! Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of James Jefferson Jarvis Sent: Friday, January 19, 2018 12:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Battery failures As far as I know, they are the same battery with different label. -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 10:10 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: So the Lifeline models, not the SunXtender models? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Jan 19 17:33:08 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 15:33:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Air X Turbine with Positive Ground In-Reply-To: <6be7f1fd-a490-ddbf-5979-6a5e6d7d9a3f@midnitesolar.com> References: <6be7f1fd-a490-ddbf-5979-6a5e6d7d9a3f@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: Great,  I had no idea you all added a wind turbine to your line up. I'm still waiting to hear back from Primus, but it doesn't look good.  Even though they advertise it works for telecomm,  another wrench contacted me privately, and said that the previous owner Southwest Wind Power told him it would NOT work with positive ground systems, which precludes most telecom. Thanks, Ray Walters On 1/19/2018 3:25 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > > > The MidNite Chinook 200 is 100% isolated from ground and therefore > would work well on a positive ground system. > > It has no up tower electronics other than a rectifier. These are > currently in production and available. > > Thanks, > > boB > > > On 1/19/2018 11:32 AM, Ray wrote: >> Hi All; >> >> I am doing a Primus Air 30 (same as old Air X) installation in a >> couple of days.  This is for a telecomm system that is Positive >> grounded 48 v.  I had assumed these had been used for many years in >> Telecomm systems over the years, but as I perused the manual last >> night, it said that negative had to be bonded to ground or "severe >> damage to the turbine may result". >>  I called Primus tech support, but they were not able to answer the >> question yet, and I need to know ASAP to cancel the installation. >> >> Thanks Again for your Help oh *RE*/vered/ *Wrenches*, >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Fri Jan 19 17:25:05 2018 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 14:25:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Air X Turbine with Positive Ground In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6be7f1fd-a490-ddbf-5979-6a5e6d7d9a3f@midnitesolar.com> The MidNite Chinook 200 is 100% isolated from ground and therefore would work well on a positive ground system. It has no up tower electronics other than a rectifier. These are currently in production and available. Thanks, boB On 1/19/2018 11:32 AM, Ray wrote: > Hi All; > > I am doing a Primus Air 30 (same as old Air X) installation in a > couple of days.  This is for a telecomm system that is Positive > grounded 48 v.  I had assumed these had been used for many years in > Telecomm systems over the years, but as I perused the manual last > night, it said that negative had to be bonded to ground or "severe > damage to the turbine may result". >  I called Primus tech support, but they were not able to answer the > question yet, and I need to know ASAP to cancel the installation. > > Thanks Again for your Help oh *RE*/vered/ *Wrenches*, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Fri Jan 19 18:44:31 2018 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 17:44:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Air X Turbine with Positive Ground In-Reply-To: References: <6be7f1fd-a490-ddbf-5979-6a5e6d7d9a3f@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <0896bd88-50ff-4c9e-d454-e0118a942c19@aprsworld.com> On 1/19/2018 4:33 PM, Ray wrote: > Great,  I had no idea you all added a wind turbine to your line up. I'm > still waiting to hear back from Primus, but it doesn't look good.  Even > though they advertise it works for telecomm,  another wrench contacted > me privately, and said that the previous owner Southwest Wind Power told > him it would NOT work with positive ground systems, which precludes most > telecom. But not cool that large chunks of Midnite's specifications and marketing material for their Diversion Load are verbatim copy and pastes from my company's DL300 that we have been producing since 2008. Midnite's manual: http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/CHINOOK200_DIVERSION_LOAD_MANUAL.pdf Our web page: http://www.aprsworld.com/dl300/ Our web page in 2010, as archived by the Internet Archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20100720004704/http://aprsworld.com/dl300/ Second source, clone, or compatible products are common in industry. But usually the cloner doesn't use the exact same words and formats and order when they make their datasheet. I guess since boB is plugging his wind turbine on re-wrenches, I'll also mention that APRS World's WT10 and WT14 and HR3 wind turbines will work with positive ground systems: http://www-dev.aprsworld.com/wtaprs/ Thanks, -- -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Jan 19 19:12:50 2018 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 18:12:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Battery failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Same here! We use mostly SunExtender and have had the same issue. As far as I know, they are the same battery with different labels. I have had some success in being a LOT more aggressive with voltages & times and sometimes going above FLA settings to get banks to recover and perform closer to spec. Makes me nervous though, since more than 50% of a customer’s investment can just vaporize with what one thought was appropriate charge settings. I suggest EQ as the new norm for AGMs, especially in grid-tied-battery-backup cases and where off-grid use does not give adequate absorb time. Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Jan 19, 2018, at 11:10 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > So the Lifeline models, not the SunXtender models? > > Glenn > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typographical errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Starlight Solar Power Systems > Date: Fri, Jan 19, 2018 12:02 PM > To: RE-wrenches; > Cc: > Subject:[RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Battery failures > > Drake, > > We have at least a dozen systems that failed early from lost capacity over the last 2 years with 2-4 year old battery banks. The AGM failures are all Lifeline battery made by Concorde. > > Lifeline and my distributor both told me I was “the only one” with failures. I dropped Lifeline battery after being a dealer for 16 years and many hundreds of systems installed. Historically we had seen 7-10 years average life from battery banks that we installed. One regular customer is at 12 years and still going. I have a sense of vindication now hearing from others about Concorde capacity issues. > > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > (928) 342-9103 > > > > > > On Jan 18, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Drake wrote: > > A Concorde AGM PVX 3050T recently failed in a bank of 8. Larry mentioned a couple of brands experiencing problems. These batteries are 4 years old and have been kept in float in an off grid system, never stressed. Hopefully Concorde batteries are not going the way of Trojan L-16s. Has anyone else had problems with Concorde? > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org /maillist.ht ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jan 19 23:26:22 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 20:26:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Battery failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <730F93C3-C18B-46D7-9DA3-490844A57F56@millersolar.com> Friends: I had a similar experience with Trojan vented L-16s about two years ago: all of a sudden the product would not perform as it used to. A vendor let slip that plate chemistry had been modified. I was later told that charge voltages needed to be higher than ever recommended previously-voltages difficult to achieve off-grid. This product degradation has been discussed here. Likewise it was helpful to corroborate experiences. Thanks, everyone! William Miller > On Jan 19, 2018, at 4:12 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: > > Same here! We use mostly SunExtender and have had the same issue. As far as I know, they are the same battery with different labels. I have had some success in being a LOT more aggressive with voltages & times and sometimes going above FLA settings to get banks to recover and perform closer to spec. Makes me nervous though, since more than 50% of a customer’s investment can just vaporize with what one thought was appropriate charge settings. I suggest EQ as the new norm for AGMs, especially in grid-tied-battery-backup cases and where off-grid use does not give adequate absorb time. > > From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 01:25:26 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 00:25:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Battery failures In-Reply-To: <730F93C3-C18B-46D7-9DA3-490844A57F56@millersolar.com> References: <730F93C3-C18B-46D7-9DA3-490844A57F56@millersolar.com> Message-ID: I am about to order AGMs for two backup power systems, help, they will be in float all the time (except for emergencies. I have a set of C&D pure lead that was installed in 2003 and are still serving, the Last cycle was last July for a two-day outage, What batteries do you recommend? On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 10:26 PM, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > I had a similar experience with Trojan vented L-16s about two years ago: > all of a sudden the product would not perform as it used to. A vendor let > slip that plate chemistry had been modified. I was later told that charge > voltages needed to be higher than ever recommended previously-voltages > difficult to achieve off-grid. This product degradation has been discussed > here. Likewise it was helpful to corroborate experiences. Thanks, everyone! > > William Miller > > > On Jan 19, 2018, at 4:12 PM, Maverick Brown > wrote: > > > > Same here! We use mostly SunExtender and have had the same issue. As far > as I know, they are the same battery with different labels. I have had some > success in being a LOT more aggressive with voltages & times and sometimes > going above FLA settings to get banks to recover and perform closer to > spec. Makes me nervous though, since more than 50% of a customer’s > investment can just vaporize with what one thought was appropriate charge > settings. I suggest EQ as the new norm for AGMs, especially in > grid-tied-battery-backup cases and where off-grid use does not give > adequate absorb time. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 08:43:13 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 06:43:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RV solar with SunPower Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I have a buddy that would like to use a leftover SunPower E20-327-C-AC, panel on his RV. Obviously he would need to take the inverter off. What I'm not sure of is if this panel can operate in an ungrounded configuration, or negative ground or does this still need a positive ground? If it does need a positive ground, are there any decent MPPT charge controllers that are fully isolated from PV to battery side, that would allow PV + ground and Battery - ground? Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Jan 20 10:38:53 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 07:38:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] RV solar with SunPower In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <928c1d2f4a7e30f8ea112695b76f29e9.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I believe all of the E series will work. It was a series before that had issues when not used as designed for. This unit is for a module inverter and you would have to isolate the PV wiring or remove the inverter. It is a great module and worth doing. You will need an mppt for 55 MPV which almost any can do. Good Luck! > Hi Wrenches, > > I have a buddy that would like to use a leftover SunPower E20-327-C-AC, > panel on his RV. Obviously he would need to take the inverter off. What > I'm not sure of is if this panel can operate in an ungrounded > configuration, or negative ground or does this still need a positive > ground? If it does need a positive ground, are there any decent MPPT > charge controllers that are fully isolated from PV to battery side, that > would allow PV + ground and Battery - ground? > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 08:51:49 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 05:51:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Battery failures In-Reply-To: References: <730F93C3-C18B-46D7-9DA3-490844A57F56@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <96946D8C-1DFB-4460-924F-49DAFEBEF808@gmail.com> HI Darryl, What size battery are you looking for? In a battery enclosure etc? jay peltz power > On Jan 19, 2018, at 10:25 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > > I am about to order AGMs for two backup power systems, help, they will be in float all the time (except for emergencies. I have a set of C&D pure lead that was installed in 2003 and are still serving, the Last cycle was last July for a two-day outage, What batteries do you recommend? > > On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 10:26 PM, William Miller > wrote: > Friends: > > I had a similar experience with Trojan vented L-16s about two years ago: all of a sudden the product would not perform as it used to. A vendor let slip that plate chemistry had been modified. I was later told that charge voltages needed to be higher than ever recommended previously-voltages difficult to achieve off-grid. This product degradation has been discussed here. Likewise it was helpful to corroborate experiences. Thanks, everyone! > > William Miller > > > On Jan 19, 2018, at 4:12 PM, Maverick Brown > wrote: > > > > Same here! We use mostly SunExtender and have had the same issue. As far as I know, they are the same battery with different labels. I have had some success in being a LOT more aggressive with voltages & times and sometimes going above FLA settings to get banks to recover and perform closer to spec. Makes me nervous though, since more than 50% of a customer’s investment can just vaporize with what one thought was appropriate charge settings. I suggest EQ as the new norm for AGMs, especially in grid-tied-battery-backup cases and where off-grid use does not give adequate absorb time. > > > > > ___ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 12:59:50 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 07:59:50 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RV solar with SunPower In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac I have used the sunpower 318 on trailers with the outback charge controller FM-60, which was wired for positive ground. However this was the only power on board, did not have any issues when connected to the truck or via the outback PS 2 except when I connected the laptop to the Mate 3 and had it plugged it to the inverter power, this would pop the GFI, I used an optical interface to prevent this from happening. I will say the Outback is more expensive then the panel so it may not be worth it. Jerry On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 3:43 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I have a buddy that would like to use a leftover SunPower E20-327-C-AC, > panel on his RV. Obviously he would need to take the inverter off. What > I'm not sure of is if this panel can operate in an ungrounded > configuration, or negative ground or does this still need a positive > ground? If it does need a positive ground, are there any decent MPPT > charge controllers that are fully isolated from PV to battery side, that > would allow PV + ground and Battery - ground? > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 13:08:46 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 08:08:46 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1,000V combiners In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris Froius was going to have there own we used a draker 1k panel (may have been Deck) here is where we had another problem with Fronius, if they are in direct weather they may leak and fill with rain water, they say this cant happen but we had 9 for 9 leak, they had no solution so we put up a roof over the array. This was Hawaii but pounding rain from the right angle may be an issue just a FYI Jerry On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 3:13 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > We are looking at Fronius Symo 24.0-3 480 for a 120KW rooftop project but > I am having problems identifying a 1,000V fused disco combiner for the six > strings. I'm looking for suggestions for suitable products. > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 13:24:48 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 10:24:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RV solar with SunPower In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70817DE4-AB3D-44B0-860A-D6E75126DCD2@gmail.com> HI Mac, Sunpower used to have a white paper that showed positive ground was only needed above a certain voltage. Like 200v+ from memory. I don’t know if these particular modules would fall into that category. jay peltz power > On Jan 20, 2018, at 9:59 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Mac > I have used the sunpower 318 on trailers with the outback charge controller FM-60, which was wired for positive ground. However this was the only power on board, did not have any issues when connected to the truck or via the outback PS 2 except when I connected the laptop to the Mate 3 and had it plugged it to the inverter power, this would pop the GFI, I used an optical interface to prevent this from happening. I will say the Outback is more expensive then the panel so it may not be worth it. > Jerry > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 3:43 AM, Mac Lewis > wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I have a buddy that would like to use a leftover SunPower E20-327-C-AC, panel on his RV. Obviously he would need to take the inverter off. What I'm not sure of is if this panel can operate in an ungrounded configuration, or negative ground or does this still need a positive ground? If it does need a positive ground, are there any decent MPPT charge controllers that are fully isolated from PV to battery side, that would allow PV + ground and Battery - ground? > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sat Jan 20 13:23:29 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 08:23:29 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RV solar with SunPower In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A number of years ago SunPower switched to using a new cell that does NOT require positive grounding. So there should be no problem in using that 327 as described. Marco On Saturday, January 20, 2018, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I have a buddy that would like to use a leftover SunPower E20-327-C-AC, > panel on his RV. Obviously he would need to take the inverter off. What > I'm not sure of is if this panel can operate in an ungrounded > configuration, or negative ground or does this still need a positive > ground? If it does need a positive ground, are there any decent MPPT > charge controllers that are fully isolated from PV to battery side, that > would allow PV + ground and Battery - ground? > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Jan 20 14:44:23 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 11:44:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] RV solar with SunPower In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Definitely agree! The E series is fine ! I run strings of 6 or 7 all the time negative ground GFCI. Best panel in the world with Panasonic and LG a close second! --Dave > A number of years ago SunPower switched to using a new cell that does NOT > require positive grounding. > > So there should be no problem in using that 327 as described. > > Marco > > On Saturday, January 20, 2018, Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> I have a buddy that would like to use a leftover SunPower E20-327-C-AC, >> panel on his RV. Obviously he would need to take the inverter off. >> What >> I'm not sure of is if this panel can operate in an ungrounded >> configuration, or negative ground or does this still need a positive >> ground? If it does need a positive ground, are there any decent MPPT >> charge controllers that are fully isolated from PV to battery side, that >> would allow PV + ground and Battery - ground? >> >> Thanks >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 13:36:35 2018 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 13:36:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Prism Solar Panels Failing Message-ID: Hey Wrenchers, We just did our first install with Prism Solar bi-facial panels (Bi-48 286's). So far two panels have shattered already. Both were from mild impacts (the battery of a drill hitting the panel with not much force behind it). The system is only about 6 weeks old. I'm in contact with Prism and waiting to hear their response but am wondering if anyone else has worked with these panels or heard of any problems like this? Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Connell.Christopher at fronius.com Tue Jan 23 10:40:51 2018 From: Connell.Christopher at fronius.com (Connell Christopher) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 15:40:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1,000V combiners Message-ID: Hi Chris, Please note that US models on the Symo 24.0-3 come with integrated fusing on the terminal block, so what you are asking for may not be needed. SolarBos does make some rather nice pass thru combiners as well, the F6sk-1FF-4xp is the part number which we typically recommended. This is a "pass thru" version. There is a combiner version as well. Please note that the Fronius SnapInverter series (Galvo, Primo, Symo) are Nema4x, which have passed all required testing, including being sprayed with a hose with 65 GPM (Gallons per min) from a 1 inch nozzle from of 10 feet for 5 minutes. Fronius International has investigated water ingress problems pertaining to our product. Statistics have shown that less than 1% of installations in the USA have experienced water ingress problems. The majority of these less than 1% of installations which experienced this, were found to be installation errors (over 90%). The problem is usually when there are multiple inverter installed on a site the same way, leading to multiple inverters with water ingress, (IE, Improper Torque on the datcom cover). If you have any questions, please contact me at technical support at 219-734-5500 Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chris Connell / Team Leader / Technical Support Dept. / Fronius USA LLC / 6797 Fronius Drive / Portage, IN 46368/ USA / Main: +1 (219) 734-5500 / Fax: +1 (219) 734-5502 / Connell.Christopher at fronius.com / www.fronius.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 13:48:51 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:48:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? Message-ID: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> HI All, I’ve had a large company want to do a project and they want me to invoice it as follows. They said it had to do with knowing the cost of the system, but that doesn’t seem right to me. Now I don’t want to get screwed here, and it sure seems that could happen. I’m pretty sure I know what you all will say, but I feel like I needed to get a bit of a reality check. As I mostly do projects on a handshake, dealing with large companies isn’t too common for me. 1. give them wholesale pricing ( line item by item) 2. add margin, but small one is all they’ll accept Project is an off grid, no permits, in Mexico, remote site and pretty big: 16kw inverter, 9kw PV, etc. Thanks jay peltz power From reellison at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 14:57:32 2018 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:57:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? In-Reply-To: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> References: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sounds like a shaft but no mine involved ! Can you get your money and have it clear before it ships ? I understand that doesn’t even work with credit cards and a bogus cashiers check is a possibility Just some thoughts, Bob > On Jan 23, 2018, at 1:48 PM, jay wrote: > > > HI All, > > I’ve had a large company want to do a project and they want me to invoice it as follows. They said it had to do with knowing the cost of the system, but that doesn’t seem right to me. Now I don’t want to get screwed here, and it sure seems that could happen. > > I’m pretty sure I know what you all will say, but I feel like I needed to get a bit of a reality check. > As I mostly do projects on a handshake, dealing with large companies isn’t too common for me. > > > 1. give them wholesale pricing ( line item by item) > 2. add margin, but small one is all they’ll accept > > Project is an off grid, no permits, in Mexico, remote site and pretty big: 16kw inverter, 9kw PV, etc. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Tue Jan 23 15:08:53 2018 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 20:08:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? In-Reply-To: References: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com>, Message-ID: We do international shipping fairly often and always require prepayment. It can be difficult to do international wire transfers so we offer PayPal as an option and add on the "convenience fee". Don't ship without payment you have no way to get it back once it's gone. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of RE Ellison Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 2:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? Sounds like a shaft but no mine involved ! Can you get your money and have it clear before it ships ? I understand that doesn’t even work with credit cards and a bogus cashiers check is a possibility Just some thoughts, Bob > On Jan 23, 2018, at 1:48 PM, jay wrote: > > > HI All, > > I’ve had a large company want to do a project and they want me to invoice it as follows. They said it had to do with knowing the cost of the system, but that doesn’t seem right to me. Now I don’t want to get screwed here, and it sure seems that could happen. > > I’m pretty sure I know what you all will say, but I feel like I needed to get a bit of a reality check. > As I mostly do projects on a handshake, dealing with large companies isn’t too common for me. > > > 1. give them wholesale pricing ( line item by item) > 2. add margin, but small one is all they’ll accept > > Project is an off grid, no permits, in Mexico, remote site and pretty big: 16kw inverter, 9kw PV, etc. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C263a739ab52941e2390b08d5629b8ec2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636523342606620383&sdata=IXxEtF91Lq9JOMG3wnSv51PkVhU5rPu30Pi97dLGMeU%3D&reserved=0 > > List-Archive: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C263a739ab52941e2390b08d5629b8ec2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636523342606620383&sdata=pb0gBmUD0dawSIwE7svvikJe0%2BbOXgag6wYOzYx0qY0%3D&reserved=0 > > List rules & etiquette: > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&data=02%7C01%7C%7C263a739ab52941e2390b08d5629b8ec2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636523342606620383&sdata=RRdnq0MKnkBNAxnzL5U%2FaUgRgS8S5P2jt3glLvB8cXg%3D&reserved=0 > > Check out or update participant bios: > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.members.re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C263a739ab52941e2390b08d5629b8ec2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636523342606620383&sdata=PWBFSfiAknsNqO9Pa81vtxk8hzDv%2BbRNRv3wh5iLz64%3D&reserved=0 > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C263a739ab52941e2390b08d5629b8ec2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636523342606620383&sdata=IXxEtF91Lq9JOMG3wnSv51PkVhU5rPu30Pi97dLGMeU%3D&reserved=0 List-Archive: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C263a739ab52941e2390b08d5629b8ec2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636523342606620383&sdata=pb0gBmUD0dawSIwE7svvikJe0%2BbOXgag6wYOzYx0qY0%3D&reserved=0 List rules & etiquette: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&data=02%7C01%7C%7C263a739ab52941e2390b08d5629b8ec2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636523342606620383&sdata=RRdnq0MKnkBNAxnzL5U%2FaUgRgS8S5P2jt3glLvB8cXg%3D&reserved=0 Check out or update participant bios: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.members.re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C263a739ab52941e2390b08d5629b8ec2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636523342606620383&sdata=PWBFSfiAknsNqO9Pa81vtxk8hzDv%2BbRNRv3wh5iLz64%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Jan 23 15:17:46 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:17:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? In-Reply-To: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> References: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> Message-ID: jay, My view: My cost is no ones business but mine. You either pay what I charge for materials and labor or go elsewhere. FYI, with that position I still have a continual 1-2 month waiting list of people waiting to pay for our services. Being on the Mexico border, I’ve had a few developers contact me for large PV solar power systems for RV parks and small communities in Mexico. They want quotes and lots of info; lots of my time. A few years ago I decided to charge a large refundable consulting fee to discuss any details for systems like that. No takers. And, these projects never get done either as they were just fantasies to begin with. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 23, 2018, at 11:48 AM, jay wrote: HI All, I’ve had a large company want to do a project and they want me to invoice it as follows. They said it had to do with knowing the cost of the system, but that doesn’t seem right to me. Now I don’t want to get screwed here, and it sure seems that could happen. I’m pretty sure I know what you all will say, but I feel like I needed to get a bit of a reality check. As I mostly do projects on a handshake, dealing with large companies isn’t too common for me. 1. give them wholesale pricing ( line item by item) 2. add margin, but small one is all they’ll accept Project is an off grid, no permits, in Mexico, remote site and pretty big: 16kw inverter, 9kw PV, etc. Thanks jay peltz power From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 15:26:57 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:26:57 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? In-Reply-To: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> References: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay We dont ask that and if we did we would get an ear full. However in the past with government projects they ask, l have heard different reasons why. But it in Mexico so anything could be required Jerry On Jan 23, 2018 11:44 AM, "jay" wrote: > > HI All, > > I’ve had a large company want to do a project and they want me to invoice > it as follows. They said it had to do with knowing the cost of the system, > but that doesn’t seem right to me. Now I don’t want to get screwed here, > and it sure seems that could happen. > > I’m pretty sure I know what you all will say, but I feel like I needed to > get a bit of a reality check. > As I mostly do projects on a handshake, dealing with large companies isn’t > too common for me. > > > 1. give them wholesale pricing ( line item by item) > 2. add margin, but small one is all they’ll accept > > Project is an off grid, no permits, in Mexico, remote site and pretty > big: 16kw inverter, 9kw PV, etc. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 15:34:59 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:34:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1,000V combiners In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The reason I need these inverters is we had two CL60 480V inverters with bases, and they fell off the bases in the hurricane and filled with water. They were good inverters but the bases were garbage and could not support the inverters in high wind. Very disappointing as the arrays had only a relatively small amount of damage. I am planning on using the Symo 24 fused inputs directly, recabling to hard wire the strings to the inverters. That's how we do all our European spec systems, it's so much better to have all the strings present at the inverter. Thanks for your advice. On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 11:40 AM, Connell Christopher < Connell.Christopher at fronius.com> wrote: > Hi Chris, > > Please note that US models on the Symo 24.0-3 come with integrated fusing > on the terminal block, so what you are asking for may not be needed. > SolarBos does make some rather nice pass thru combiners as well, the > F6sk-1FF-4xp is the part number which we typically recommended. This is a > “pass thru” version. There is a combiner version as well. > > > > Please note that the Fronius SnapInverter series (Galvo, Primo, Symo) are > Nema4x, which have passed all required testing, including being sprayed > with a hose with 65 GPM (Gallons per min) from a 1 inch nozzle from of 10 > feet for 5 minutes. Fronius International has investigated water ingress > problems pertaining to our product. Statistics have shown that less than 1% > of installations in the USA have experienced water ingress problems. The > majority of these less than 1% of installations which experienced this, > were found to be installation errors (over 90%). The problem is usually > when there are multiple inverter installed on a site the same way, leading > to multiple inverters with water ingress, (IE, Improper Torque on the > datcom cover). > > If you have any questions, please contact me at technical support at > 219-734-5500 <(219)%20734-5500> > > Thanks > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ----------------------------- > > Chris Connell > > > > / Team Leader > > / Technical Support Dept. > > / Fronius USA LLC > > / 6797 Fronius Drive / Portage, IN 46368/ USA > > > > / Main: +1 (219) 734-5500 <(219)%20734-5500> > > / Fax: +1 (219) 734-5502 <(219)%20734-5502> > > / *Connell.Christopher at fronius.com * > / www.fronius.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 15:40:27 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:40:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? In-Reply-To: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> References: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've done this once because the client had duty free concessions, he had to have the manufacturer's invoices. I quoted him Cost plus 20 for the materials plus a labour fee and a management fee. He took the quote and I never heard from him again, guess he tried to buy the goods at the same cost. One way around this is to explain that you have confidential pricing and giving that to them would break that agreement. On the other hand, I work with a large company that handled the shipping and brokerage, so they had to get my supplier invoices. But, and this may work for you, I first signed a Per-Watt contract with them, so what they seen afterwards didn't make any difference. You can always edit the invoices to make them higher. On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 2:48 PM, jay wrote: > > HI All, > > I’ve had a large company want to do a project and they want me to invoice > it as follows. They said it had to do with knowing the cost of the system, > but that doesn’t seem right to me. Now I don’t want to get screwed here, > and it sure seems that could happen. > > I’m pretty sure I know what you all will say, but I feel like I needed to > get a bit of a reality check. > As I mostly do projects on a handshake, dealing with large companies isn’t > too common for me. > > > 1. give them wholesale pricing ( line item by item) > 2. add margin, but small one is all they’ll accept > > Project is an off grid, no permits, in Mexico, remote site and pretty > big: 16kw inverter, 9kw PV, etc. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 15:44:11 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:44:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? In-Reply-To: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> References: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> Message-ID: I had it happen two ways, one asked for more and more details which i gave then they shopped my design out to another installer. The other time when the job was done they refused to pay mark up and said my labor was to high and said take it or leave it. On Jan 23, 2018 1:44 PM, "jay" wrote: > > HI All, > > I’ve had a large company want to do a project and they want me to invoice > it as follows. They said it had to do with knowing the cost of the system, > but that doesn’t seem right to me. Now I don’t want to get screwed here, > and it sure seems that could happen. > > I’m pretty sure I know what you all will say, but I feel like I needed to > get a bit of a reality check. > As I mostly do projects on a handshake, dealing with large companies isn’t > too common for me. > > > 1. give them wholesale pricing ( line item by item) > 2. add margin, but small one is all they’ll accept > > Project is an off grid, no permits, in Mexico, remote site and pretty > big: 16kw inverter, 9kw PV, etc. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Tue Jan 23 15:55:43 2018 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 15:55:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? References: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1D5824BDA38C48C082E024EBFA235830@PeterPC> Jay Thank you but no thank you might be the best answer. Mexico can be a tough place to do business and potentially dangerous depending on where the project might be. They will have a contract that is written FOR THEM, not for you. Seller beware. peter Giroux American Solar ----- Original Message ----- From: "jay" To: "RE-wrenches" Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 1:48 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? > > HI All, > > I’ve had a large company want to do a project and they want me to invoice > it as follows. They said it had to do with knowing the cost of the > system, but that doesn’t seem right to me. Now I don’t want to get screwed > here, and it sure seems that could happen. > > I’m pretty sure I know what you all will say, but I feel like I needed to > get a bit of a reality check. > As I mostly do projects on a handshake, dealing with large companies isn’t > too common for me. > > > 1. give them wholesale pricing ( line item by item) > 2. add margin, but small one is all they’ll accept > > Project is an off grid, no permits, in Mexico, remote site and pretty big: > 16kw inverter, 9kw PV, etc. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Tue Jan 23 15:06:53 2018 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 12:06:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? In-Reply-To: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> References: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0LmMSa-1fCaa70L0k-00ZwUq@mrelay.perfora.net> Ho Jay, I’d be extremely careful. First with your pricing, don’t forgive some of your legitimate costs. Add Shipping & Handling and taxes to all equipment purchases. Carefully estimate your labor costs, travel to Mexico, shipping across the border to Mexico. Are there any import costs? What will be other “costs of doing business”? Second, you know what it costs to run your business. Add the appropriate overhead and general and administrative costs. Office staff and your salary; insurance; and other indirect costs. You might tell them what your indirect cost schedule is (e.g. 15% on PV panels, inverters, batteries and any other hardware; 10% on wages and other fees), and if they don’t agree, decline to do business with them. Third, I’d set up a progress payment schedule. Arrange for payment in in $US bank draft (be careful of bogus bank drafts) or other form of payment you are confortable with. Fourth, does your existing insurance policies cover equipment and auto theft (in Mexico)? Get a rider if it doesn’t. Fifth, don’t provide them with any design information prior to signing a contract. Peter T. Parrish SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com From: jay Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 11:44 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? HI All, I’ve had a large company want to do a project and they want me to invoice it as follows. They said it had to do with knowing the cost of the system, but that doesn’t seem right to me. Now I don’t want to get screwed here, and it sure seems that could happen. I’m pretty sure I know what you all will say, but I feel like I needed to get a bit of a reality check. As I mostly do projects on a handshake, dealing with large companies isn’t too common for me. 1. give them wholesale pricing ( line item by item) 2. add margin, but small one is all they’ll accept Project is an off grid, no permits, in Mexico, remote site and pretty big: 16kw inverter, 9kw PV, etc. Thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jan 23 16:28:37 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 13:28:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? In-Reply-To: <0LmMSa-1fCaa70L0k-00ZwUq@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> <0LmMSa-1fCaa70L0k-00ZwUq@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <58ddea61f09638ae0151ae6cff60ff07.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Pre-build it in a shipping container here! Have them pay for it all and inspect before shipment. They can keep a small portion for your final labor, travel, and expenses in a 2-way escrow account. When you are safely home you get the final amount and they get back an amount that is more than the amount you received. It is not cheap to set something like this up so collect a fee at the start! You have to do something to protect your most valuable treasure! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Ho Jay, > > I’d be extremely careful. > > First with your pricing, don’t forgive some of your legitimate costs. > Add Shipping & Handling and taxes to all equipment purchases. Carefully > estimate your labor costs, travel to Mexico, shipping across the border to > Mexico. Are there any import costs? What will be other “costs of doing > business”? > > Second, you know what it costs to run your business. Add the appropriate > overhead and general and administrative costs. Office staff and your > salary; insurance; and other indirect costs. You might tell them what your > indirect cost schedule is (e.g. 15% on PV panels, inverters, batteries > and any other hardware; 10% on wages and other fees), and if they don’t > agree, decline to do business with them. > > Third, I’d set up a progress payment schedule. Arrange for payment in in > $US bank draft (be careful of bogus bank drafts) or other form of payment > you are confortable with. > > Fourth, does your existing insurance policies cover equipment and auto > theft (in Mexico)? Get a rider if it doesn’t. > > Fifth, don’t provide them with any design information prior to signing a > contract. > > Peter T. Parrish > SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > peter.parrish at solargnosis.com > > From: jay > Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 11:44 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? > > > HI All, > > I’ve had a large company want to do a project and they want me to > invoice it as follows. They said it had to do with knowing the cost of > the system, but that doesn’t seem right to me. Now I don’t want to get > screwed here, and it sure seems that could happen. > > I’m pretty sure I know what you all will say, but I feel like I needed > to get a bit of a reality check. > As I mostly do projects on a handshake, dealing with large companies > isn’t too common for me. > > > 1. give them wholesale pricing ( line item by item) > 2. add margin, but small one is all they’ll accept > > Project is an off grid, no permits, in Mexico, remote site and pretty big: > 16kw inverter, 9kw PV, etc. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Tue Jan 23 17:24:37 2018 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 17:24:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? In-Reply-To: <58ddea61f09638ae0151ae6cff60ff07.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> <0LmMSa-1fCaa70L0k-00ZwUq@mrelay.perfora.net> <58ddea61f09638ae0151ae6cff60ff07.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: Hi Jay, My advice is walk away unless they want to meet your terms. You will save yourself a tremendous amount of trouble/waiting/lost sleep/lost money. I do 50% of my business internationally, mostly in the Caribbean. If they do not accept my very reasonable terms (prepay for all materials, 50% labor due upon the start of the project, balance due on completion) they are highly unlikely to be on the up and up with you. As best possible, deal with known entities, take deposits through wire transfers to your account and do not put yourself in a position to be taken advantage of in a way that you cannot afford. If they want quality, they must understand they have to pay for it. I have designed six systems over the past fifteen years in Mexico and not one has come to fruition. It was my time wasted, but nothing else. Daryl DeJoy www.penobscotsolar.com www.islandsolarbahamas.com > Pre-build it in a shipping container here! Have them pay for it all and > inspect before shipment. They can keep a small portion for your final > labor, travel, and expenses in a 2-way escrow account. When you are safely > home you get the final amount and they get back an amount that is more > than the amount you received. It is not cheap to set something like this > up so collect a fee at the start! > > You have to do something to protect your most valuable treasure! > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > > >> Ho Jay, >> >> I’d be extremely careful. >> >> First with your pricing, don’t forgive some of your legitimate costs. >> Add Shipping & Handling and taxes to all equipment purchases. Carefully >> estimate your labor costs, travel to Mexico, shipping across the border >> to >> Mexico. Are there any import costs? What will be other “costs of doing >> business”? >> >> Second, you know what it costs to run your business. Add the appropriate >> overhead and general and administrative costs. Office staff and your >> salary; insurance; and other indirect costs. You might tell them what >> your >> indirect cost schedule is (e.g. 15% on PV panels, inverters, batteries >> and any other hardware; 10% on wages and other fees), and if they >> don’t >> agree, decline to do business with them. >> >> Third, I’d set up a progress payment schedule. Arrange for payment in >> in >> $US bank draft (be careful of bogus bank drafts) or other form of >> payment >> you are confortable with. >> >> Fourth, does your existing insurance policies cover equipment and auto >> theft (in Mexico)? Get a rider if it doesn’t. >> >> Fifth, don’t provide them with any design information prior to signing >> a >> contract. >> >> Peter T. Parrish >> SolarGnosis >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> (323) 839-6108 >> peter.parrish at solargnosis.com >> >> From: jay >> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 11:44 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? >> >> >> HI All, >> >> I’ve had a large company want to do a project and they want me to >> invoice it as follows. They said it had to do with knowing the cost of >> the system, but that doesn’t seem right to me. Now I don’t want to >> get >> screwed here, and it sure seems that could happen. >> >> I’m pretty sure I know what you all will say, but I feel like I needed >> to get a bit of a reality check. >> As I mostly do projects on a handshake, dealing with large companies >> isn’t too common for me. >> >> >> 1. give them wholesale pricing ( line item by item) >> 2. add margin, but small one is all they’ll accept >> >> Project is an off grid, no permits, in Mexico, remote site and pretty >> big: >> 16kw inverter, 9kw PV, etc. >> >> Thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From dana at solarwork.com Tue Jan 23 16:27:24 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:27:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mexico Message-ID: <002b01d39490$f6d93d70$e48bb850$@solarwork.com> Hey Jay, Ditto on the input so far. How did they find & select you? Why did they select you? Who are they? [if they are lawyers or investment bankers run]. Do you know them? Cost plus works if there is trust. What have they done to provide trust for you? Nothing out of country happens today, it always turns into tomorrow. My 0.2 - Shipments get dived into at customs, stuff has disappeared, payola happens. Finding materials can literally take days of running around & items that we take for granted here in the USA, they will not have ever heard of at the wholesale houses south of the border. Personally, I would only do work in Mexico if I knew the people very well and there was great trust. Costa Rico was an enjoyable experience for me, but I knew the family I was working for & had set them up during Y2K. I urge caution you are the one who could get hurt, can you afford this adventure financially? At this time of year working where its sunny & warm is very appealing…… CYA Bro! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 1:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? Ho Jay, I’d be extremely careful. First with your pricing, don’t forgive some of your legitimate costs. Add Shipping & Handling and taxes to all equipment purchases. Carefully estimate your labor costs, travel to Mexico, shipping across the border to Mexico. Are there any import costs? What will be other “costs of doing business”? Second, you know what it costs to run your business. Add the appropriate overhead and general and administrative costs. Office staff and your salary; insurance; and other indirect costs. You might tell them what your indirect cost schedule is (e.g. 15% on PV panels, inverters, batteries and any other hardware; 10% on wages and other fees), and if they don’t agree, decline to do business with them. Third, I’d set up a progress payment schedule. Arrange for payment in in $US bank draft (be careful of bogus bank drafts) or other form of payment you are confortable with. Fourth, does your existing insurance policies cover equipment and auto theft (in Mexico)? Get a rider if it doesn’t. Fifth, don’t provide them with any design information prior to signing a contract. Peter T. Parrish SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com From: jay Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 11:44 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? HI All, I’ve had a large company want to do a project and they want me to invoice it as follows. They said it had to do with knowing the cost of the system, but that doesn’t seem right to me. Now I don’t want to get screwed here, and it sure seems that could happen. I’m pretty sure I know what you all will say, but I feel like I needed to get a bit of a reality check. As I mostly do projects on a handshake, dealing with large companies isn’t too common for me. 1. give them wholesale pricing ( line item by item) 2. add margin, but small one is all they’ll accept Project is an off grid, no permits, in Mexico, remote site and pretty big: 16kw inverter, 9kw PV, etc. Thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 19:03:25 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 16:03:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? In-Reply-To: References: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> <0LmMSa-1fCaa70L0k-00ZwUq@mrelay.perfora.net> <58ddea61f09638ae0151ae6cff60ff07.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <4F93E0FF-B4D1-4384-9377-873C61538FAF@gmail.com> wow, such great information I’ve gotten from you all. It all seems pretty clear that this cost + is quite unusual, and I take to heart what you have said. As an aside, pretty unusual to have almost unanimous opinions here on the wrenches, no? FYI, I”ve done many systems in Baja and I get paid 100% in advance before anything ships. To either the end user here in the states or to a freight forwarder. Yes once it reaches them, I no longer have control. And the client is responsible for any damage enroute in MX. Yea lots of weird stuff happens down there! OK now I’ve got to contact their money guy. Thanks again all, jay > On Jan 23, 2018, at 2:24 PM, penobscotsolar at midmaine.com wrote: > > Hi Jay, > My advice is walk away unless they want to meet your terms. You will > save yourself a tremendous amount of trouble/waiting/lost sleep/lost > money. I do 50% of my business internationally, mostly in the > Caribbean. If they do not accept my very reasonable terms (prepay for > all materials, 50% labor due upon the start of the project, balance due > on completion) they are highly unlikely to be on the up and up with > you. > As best possible, deal with known entities, take deposits through wire > transfers to your account and do not put yourself in a position to be > taken advantage of in a way that you cannot afford. If they want > quality, they must understand they have to pay for it. I have designed > six systems over the past fifteen years in Mexico and not one has come > to fruition. It was my time wasted, but nothing else. > > Daryl DeJoy > www.penobscotsolar.com > www.islandsolarbahamas.com > > > >> Pre-build it in a shipping container here! Have them pay for it all and >> inspect before shipment. They can keep a small portion for your final >> labor, travel, and expenses in a 2-way escrow account. When you are safely >> home you get the final amount and they get back an amount that is more >> than the amount you received. It is not cheap to set something like this >> up so collect a fee at the start! >> >> You have to do something to protect your most valuable treasure! >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> >> > From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Jan 24 09:58:37 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:58:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? In-Reply-To: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> References: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> Message-ID: The regulations for doing business in Mexico are intense. There are customs with organized corruption that make it necessary for someone to totally know the ropes. At 01:48 PM 1/23/2018, you wrote: >HI All, I’ve had a large company want to do a >project and they want me to invoice it as >follows. They said it had to do with knowing >the cost of the system, but that doesn’t seem >right to me. Now I don’t want to get screwed >here, and it sure seems that could happen. I’m >pretty sure I know what you all will say, but I >feel like I needed to get a bit of a reality >check. As I mostly do projects on a handshake, >dealing with large companies isn’t too common >for me. 1. give them wholesale pricing ( line >item by item) 2. add margin, but small one is >all they’ll accept Project is an off grid, no >permits, in Mexico, remote site and pretty >big: 16kw inverter, 9kw PV, etc. Thanks jay >peltz power >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or >update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jan 24 10:13:18 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 07:13:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? In-Reply-To: <20180124145923.E15821077FB@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <24F7A50F-DE15-48CD-9DE0-15A5145429D9@gmail.com> <20180124145923.E15821077FB@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Not to mention that the Baja and the mainland are very different also. I lived down there and did business for 10 years and so all of my knowledge gained is probably very outdated 18 years later. It probably was old news 1 year later:) Use a shipping container! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > The regulations for doing business in Mexico are > intense. There are customs with organized > corruption that make it necessary for someone to totally know the ropes. > > At 01:48 PM 1/23/2018, you wrote: >>HI All, I’ve had a large company want to do a >>project and they want me to invoice it as >>follows. They said it had to do with knowing >>the cost of the system, but that doesn’t seem >>right to me. Now I don’t want to get screwed >>here, and it sure seems that could happen. I’m >>pretty sure I know what you all will say, but I >>feel like I needed to get a bit of a reality >>check. As I mostly do projects on a handshake, >>dealing with large companies isn’t too common >>for me. 1. give them wholesale pricing ( line >>item by item) 2. add margin, but small one is >>all they’ll accept Project is an off grid, no >>permits, in Mexico, remote site and pretty >>big: 16kw inverter, 9kw PV, etc. Thanks jay >>peltz power >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >>listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or >>update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From hiltondier at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 10:32:36 2018 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier III) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 10:32:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? Message-ID: <20ff1e27-6ec9-4ae2-a361-3858b51bba5d@gmail.com> Hi Jay, I'm with Daryl on this, except I'd say RUN AWAY, right now, no matter what. When a potential client in a problematic location starts dictating oddball terms right off the bat, that's more than just a problem with the contract. It's a telltale that something is wrong with the whole situation. It speaks to the attitude and motivation of the client. If they are that picky about the pricing they will pick you apart on everything you do. Most people are fine, but some clients are just born dissatisfied. Even if they suddenly agreed to all your terms I still wouldn't take the job. Best of luck, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Wed Jan 24 10:36:51 2018 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 10:36:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? References: <20ff1e27-6ec9-4ae2-a361-3858b51bba5d@gmail.com> Message-ID: Run Forest Run! ----- Original Message ----- From: Hilton Dier III To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 10:32 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] has anyone ever had this happen? Hi Jay, I'm with Daryl on this, except I'd say RUN AWAY, right now, no matter what. When a potential client in a problematic location starts dictating oddball terms right off the bat, that's more than just a problem with the contract. It's a telltale that something is wrong with the whole situation. It speaks to the attitude and motivation of the client. If they are that picky about the pricing they will pick you apart on everything you do. Most people are fine, but some clients are just born dissatisfied. Even if they suddenly agreed to all your terms I still wouldn't take the job. Best of luck, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jan 24 01:28:50 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 22:28:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for Solar Ready pedestal Message-ID: <9280af923d8e0f932911989ee954305b@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am working on a residential 1 phase project with a Solar Edge 10,000. I need to source a 200 amp meter/main with a 60 amp solar input capability. This needs to be a free-standing pedestal. All I am finding is wall mount (surface or flush) units. Anyone know if a pedestal unit with these capabilities? Thanks in advance. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Wed Jan 24 12:33:07 2018 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 17:33:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for Solar Ready pedestal In-Reply-To: <9280af923d8e0f932911989ee954305b@mail.gmail.com> References: <9280af923d8e0f932911989ee954305b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1463799222.3401663.1516815187913@mail.yahoo.com> Milbank makes a quality line of pedestals. The 200A mobile home line looks like it could meet your requirements: http://www.milbankworks.com/metering/pedestals/mobile-home.aspx Milbank U5136-O-200S regards, bill  Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com From: William Miller To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:16 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for Solar Ready pedestal Friends: I am working on a residential 1 phase project with a Solar Edge 10,000.  I need to source a 200 amp meter/main with a 60 amp solar input capability.  This needs to be a free-standing pedestal.  All I am finding is wall mount (surface or flush) units. Anyone know if a pedestal unit with these capabilities? Thanks in advance. William Miller  Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 15:22:29 2018 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 10:22:29 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI Faults, SMA Inverters, Solectria RSB's, & RF Signals Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, I have a issue I would like to throw at the group. We have a SMA 24000TL-US with a Solectria Rapid Shut Down Combiner. The inverter keeps faulting the AFCI. We megged the strings,and checked all connections on all components. So we are confident that the issue is not related, or connected to all of that. We also swapped out the RSB. I really can't disclose where the building is located because its military, and most of their IT infrastructure happens to be in this building as well. I know from research, and tech support that this happens sometimes with RF signals,metal roofs,and communications antennas,etc. SMA is suggesting we could re-run the stings so that we mitigate the possibility that the strings are picking up this noise and triggering the AFCI, or get clearance to disable that feature on the inverter. Due to safety issues I'm sure the last option is not on the table. We can also place any given sting on the combiner and it will work fine with no faults up to four stings. Once we place more than four strings on the combiner the inverter will fault. Since we are still on the 2008 NEC in Hawaii this is our first run in with the Rapid Shut Downs too. Maybe somehow this is tied into the issue? Anyone have thoughts, or experience with this type of issue? Mahalo Nui, *James B. Rudolph* *Hawaii Unifed* *Director of Energy* *ES Electrician # 10816* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lawrencesteven at gmail.com Thu Jan 25 08:52:01 2018 From: lawrencesteven at gmail.com (Steven Lawrence) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 08:52:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI Faults, SMA Inverters, Solectria RSB's, & RF Signals Message-ID: Hi James, Is the solectria combiner actually combining strings so you have one input into the SMA inverter? If so, did SMA approve arc fault detection at that high current? From what I understand, arc fault detection doesn't work on strings greater than 20A. In the solectria box, I'm assuming there is a contactor in there, correct? Do you have coils of wire inside from the power supply to the contactor? I have seen instances where coiled wire was generated the noise itself. Is the wire from the power supply to the contactor shielded? From: James Rudolph > > > Aloha Wrenches, > > I have a issue I would like to throw at the group. > > We have a SMA 24000TL-US with a Solectria Rapid Shut Down Combiner. > The inverter keeps faulting the AFCI. We megged the strings,and checked all > connections on all components. So we are confident that the issue is not > related, or connected to all of that. We also swapped out the RSB. > > I really can't disclose where the building is located because its military, > and most of their IT infrastructure happens to be in this building as well. > > I know from research, and tech support that this happens sometimes with RF > signals,metal roofs,and communications antennas,etc. > > SMA is suggesting we could re-run the stings so that we mitigate the > possibility that the strings are picking up this noise and triggering the > AFCI, or get clearance to disable that feature on the inverter. > > Due to safety issues I'm sure the last option is not on the table. > > We can also place any given sting on the combiner and it will work fine > with no faults up to four stings. Once we place more than four strings on > the combiner the inverter will fault. > > Since we are still on the 2008 NEC in Hawaii this is our first run in with > the Rapid Shut Downs too. Maybe somehow this is tied into the issue? > > Anyone have thoughts, or experience with this type of issue? > > > Mahalo Nui, > > > *James B. Rudolph* > > *Hawaii Unifed* > > *Director of Energy* > > *ES Electrician # 10816* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: wrenches.org/attachments/20180124/455d31c5/attachment-0001.html> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Jan 25 09:36:51 2018 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 09:36:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI Faults, SMA Inverters, Solectria RSB's, & RF Signals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi James, I assume this is an intermittent fault? Do you have Sunpower modules? We have a very small percentage of Sunpower systems (E20-327 modules) with SMA TL-22 inverters that have had intermittent arc fault issues. On some of them we have even replaced the inverter, but the issue still happens. This does not seem to happen at all with other modules. At one site we have even replaced the inverters, took all the modules off the roof and checked the connections and it still arc faulted. Sunpower eventually had us replace nearly half the modules. It has not arc faulted since then, but that was less than 6 months ago and some of these will arc fault about once per year. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Senior Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 www.taitem.com On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Steven Lawrence wrote: > Hi James, > > Is the solectria combiner actually combining strings so you have one input > into the SMA inverter? If so, did SMA approve arc fault detection at that > high current? From what I understand, arc fault detection doesn't work on > strings greater than 20A. > > In the solectria box, I'm assuming there is a contactor in there, > correct? Do you have coils of wire inside from the power supply to the > contactor? I have seen instances where coiled wire was generated the noise > itself. Is the wire from the power supply to the contactor shielded? > > > From: James Rudolph >> >> >> Aloha Wrenches, >> >> I have a issue I would like to throw at the group. >> >> We have a SMA 24000TL-US with a Solectria Rapid Shut Down Combiner. >> The inverter keeps faulting the AFCI. We megged the strings,and checked >> all >> connections on all components. So we are confident that the issue is not >> related, or connected to all of that. We also swapped out the RSB. >> >> I really can't disclose where the building is located because its >> military, >> and most of their IT infrastructure happens to be in this building as >> well. >> >> I know from research, and tech support that this happens sometimes with RF >> signals,metal roofs,and communications antennas,etc. >> >> SMA is suggesting we could re-run the stings so that we mitigate the >> possibility that the strings are picking up this noise and triggering the >> AFCI, or get clearance to disable that feature on the inverter. >> >> Due to safety issues I'm sure the last option is not on the table. >> >> We can also place any given sting on the combiner and it will work fine >> with no faults up to four stings. Once we place more than four strings on >> the combiner the inverter will fault. >> >> Since we are still on the 2008 NEC in Hawaii this is our first run in with >> the Rapid Shut Downs too. Maybe somehow this is tied into the issue? >> >> Anyone have thoughts, or experience with this type of issue? >> >> >> Mahalo Nui, >> >> >> *James B. Rudolph* >> >> *Hawaii Unifed* >> >> *Director of Energy* >> >> *ES Electrician # 10816* >> >> *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > hes.org/attachments/20180124/455d31c5/attachment-0001.html> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Jan 25 09:43:21 2018 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 09:43:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for Solar Ready pedestal In-Reply-To: <9280af923d8e0f932911989ee954305b@mail.gmail.com> References: <9280af923d8e0f932911989ee954305b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William, It is unlikely that you will find a 200A panel with 60A of backfeed capacity. You can reduce the main breaker to 175A though and then any 200A panel would work. I have never seen any residence come any where close to drawing that much current that it would trip. We do it fairly often and have never had an issue. Then you get 65A of backfeed capacity. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Senior Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 www.taitem.com On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 1:28 AM, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am working on a residential 1 phase project with a Solar Edge 10,000. I > need to source a 200 amp meter/main with a 60 amp solar input capability. > This needs to be a free-standing pedestal. All I am finding is wall mount > (surface or flush) units. > > > > Anyone know if a pedestal unit with these capabilities? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 <(805)%20438-5600> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Jan 25 11:36:28 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 08:36:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for Solar Ready pedestal In-Reply-To: References: <9280af923d8e0f932911989ee954305b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a9aee8e-bdc9-1b77-df17-e02ccf75b916@psln.com> Dave,             I would agree with you regarding the 175 amp main breaker leaving plenty of headroom for power to a residence.  The only exception I'm aware of around these parts (No. Sierra) is the all electric house that also has a ground source heat pump with heat strips for back-up. If the GSHP can't keep up and the heat strips kick in, you're looking at about a third of that 175 amps going to just heating.  We've also done the swap to 175 amp and its worked, so far, but... Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 1/25/2018 6:43 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi William, > It is unlikely that you will find a 200A panel with 60A of backfeed > capacity. You can reduce the main breaker to 175A though and then any > 200A panel would work. I have never seen any residence come any where > close to drawing that much current that it would trip. We do it fairly > often and have never had an issue. Then you get 65A of backfeed capacity. > > Cheers, > Dave > > > *--* > * > * > *Dave Tedeyan > * > *Senior Engineer* > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 > Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 > www.taitem.com > > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 1:28 AM, William Miller > > wrote: > > Friends: > > I am working on a residential 1 phase project with a Solar Edge > 10,000.  I need to source a 200 amp meter/main with a 60 amp solar > input capability. This needs to be a free-standing pedestal.  All > I am finding is wall mount (surface or flush) units. > > Anyone know if a pedestal unit with these capabilities? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jan 25 18:04:40 2018 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 18:04:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternative to Enphase Raw Q Cable Message-ID: My supplier can't seem to get their hands on this bare cable, which I see as pretty essential/helpful to an efficient installation for Enphase's IQ system. The tech brief notes that the Type DG cable is based on the Type TC-ER construction. There is 12/2 flat TC-ER cable available out there, but it appears they are all 7 strand rather than 19 strand conductors in the Type DG cable. I'm assuming using 7 strand TC-ER cable would violate the listing for the field wirable connectors from Enphase, so I hesitate to go down this road. The Q cable pricing is high, but there's no substitute for doing it right. Anyone using an acceptable alternative/substitute to the Raw Q cable? Or you can email me directly with a source with available stock. Thanks, J ason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Thu Jan 25 18:41:39 2018 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 23:41:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternative to Enphase Raw Q Cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, Sorry for the trouble sourcing this cable. This Q-12-RAW-300 cable does use DG cable which is based upon the cable specifications of TC-ER, but is a different cable. We are currently backlogged about a month on that cable, since demand has exceeded our expectations. I'd recommend that you get the order in with your distributor, now. I'll call you directly about a possible short-term solution to your problem. You can use the Raw Cable in conjunction with the Field Wireable connectors for transitions between roofs and arrays. We've detailed the installation applications in our IQ Planning Guide here: https://enphase.com/en-us/support/technical-brief-planning-iq-microinverter-system I'm also attaching a photo of the cable and connectors in use. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy | Product Manager, Envoy and IQ Accessories (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell [Enphase_esig_logo6.jpg] Energy Evolved™ Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 Texas Master Electrician #284451 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 3:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Alternative to Enphase Raw Q Cable My supplier can't seem to get their hands on this bare cable, which I see as pretty essential/helpful to an efficient installation for Enphase's IQ system. The tech brief notes that the Type DG cable is based on the Type TC-ER construction. There is 12/2 flat TC-ER cable available out there, but it appears they are all 7 strand rather than 19 strand conductors in the Type DG cable. I'm assuming using 7 strand TC-ER cable would violate the listing for the field wirable connectors from Enphase, so I hesitate to go down this road. The Q cable pricing is high, but there's no substitute for doing it right. Anyone using an acceptable alternative/substitute to the Raw Q cable? Or you can email me directly with a source with available stock. Thanks, J ason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_8646.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 1466492 bytes Desc: IMG_8646.JPG URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 25 20:55:11 2018 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 17:55:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for Solar Ready pedestal In-Reply-To: References: <9280af923d8e0f932911989ee954305b@mail.gmail.com> <7a9aee8e-bdc9-1b77-df17-e02ccf75b916@psln.com> Message-ID: We always just end up using an Eaton Solar-Ready(75A solar) and building our own. Very cost effective and you can get the distribution configuration you require custom as needed (8/12 all the way to 40/40 I believe). Two pieces of 2" Sched40 as verticals into 36" holes with concrete and DeepUnistrut as horizontals. Cheap and extremely robust. Joe Nelson C-46/C-10 #1004568 Project Manager S.E.G. www.sustainableenergygroup.com On Jan 25, 2018 08:31, "frenergy" wrote: Dave, I would agree with you regarding the 175 amp main breaker leaving plenty of headroom for power to a residence. The only exception I'm aware of around these parts (No. Sierra) is the all electric house that also has a ground source heat pump with heat strips for back-up. If the GSHP can't keep up and the heat strips kick in, you're looking at about a third of that 175 amps going to just heating. We've also done the swap to 175 amp and its worked, so far, but... Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849 <(530)%20284-7849> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net On 1/25/2018 6:43 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Hi William, It is unlikely that you will find a 200A panel with 60A of backfeed capacity. You can reduce the main breaker to 175A though and then any 200A panel would work. I have never seen any residence come any where close to drawing that much current that it would trip. We do it fairly often and have never had an issue. Then you get 65A of backfeed capacity. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan * *Senior Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 www.taitem.com On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 1:28 AM, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am working on a residential 1 phase project with a Solar Edge 10,000. I > need to source a 200 amp meter/main with a 60 amp solar input capability. > This needs to be a free-standing pedestal. All I am finding is wall mount > (surface or flush) units. > > > > Anyone know if a pedestal unit with these capabilities? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 <%28805%29%20438-5600> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Virus-free. www.avast.com <#m_781108867137299947_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jan 25 20:21:32 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 17:21:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for Solar Ready pedestal Message-ID: Friends: Thank you all for on-line and off-line replies. There appears to be some confusion as to the term “Solar Ready.” In my understanding, this term applies to meter/main/combo panels that have special provisions to allow for increased back-feed amperage. This is usually done by providing means to easily incorporate “line-side” interconnection. As a reminder for those not familiar, line-side is a connection between the meter and the main disconnecting means. Usually it means a lug kit to easily connect prior to the main disconnecting means, or even an integral breaker space connected to the line side. The integral breaker obviates the need for a collocated OPCD. This is a very handy tool for your design kit and I suggest if you are not familiar with this option you might want to become so. Here is one link and another link to information about these devices. Unfortunately the solar-ready equipment I have found are all wall-mount and I need a pedestal. Several people kindly sent links to garden variety pedestals that do not have this “solar-ready” capability. I am aware that one can down-size a main breaker, but I don’t believe it responsible to do so without numerical support for that move. In the jurisdiction regulating this project, the authorities wisely require a numerical analysis of the loads in the residence through the process outlined in the NEC. I have done this but it adds about two hours to the project as you need to inspect the residence, plug the numbers into a spreadsheet and create a presentation to insert into the building permit application. This is certainly an option, however. In certain cases one can find the room to tap onto the conductors between the meter socket and the main disconnect. We have done this either by bolting lugs to existing threaded holes in a bus set or by application of insulation piercing taps on cable conductors. One then needs to locate a properly sized fused disconnected immediately adjacent to the meter socket fed by properly sized conductors. I have applied the tap-rule and had plan-checkers allow this calculation methodology, although some have argued on this forum they are not related concepts. Lastly, just to cover every contingency, one can configure a service with a discrete socket, main breaker load center and a separate fused disconnect for the solar back-feed. This would look like much like an agricultural or industrial service from a previous era. I hope the above over-verbosity clears up any misconceptions. I appreciate all of the input. Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *frenergy *Sent:* Thursday, January 25, 2018 8:36 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for Solar Ready pedestal Dave, I would agree with you regarding the 175 amp main breaker leaving plenty of headroom for power to a residence. The only exception I'm aware of around these parts (No. Sierra) is the all electric house that also has a ground source heat pump with heat strips for back-up. If the GSHP can't keep up and the heat strips kick in, you're looking at about a third of that 175 amps going to just heating. We've also done the swap to 175 amp and its worked, so far, but... Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 1/25/2018 6:43 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Hi William, It is unlikely that you will find a 200A panel with 60A of backfeed capacity. You can reduce the main breaker to 175A though and then any 200A panel would work. I have never seen any residence come any where close to drawing that much current that it would trip. We do it fairly often and have never had an issue. Then you get 65A of backfeed capacity. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Senior Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 www.taitem.com On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 1:28 AM, William Miller wrote: Friends: I am working on a residential 1 phase project with a Solar Edge 10,000. I need to source a 200 amp meter/main with a 60 amp solar input capability. This needs to be a free-standing pedestal. All I am finding is wall mount (surface or flush) units. Anyone know if a pedestal unit with these capabilities? Thanks in advance. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 <%28805%29%20438-5600> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- [image: https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif] Virus-free. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1776 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 7810 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Jan 28 22:23:33 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 20:23:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is there a charge controller do this? Message-ID: Hello wrenches, I'm working on 3 off-grid telecom sites. They are designed to operate solar only under most conditions but the project manager ordered a custom-built 48 VDC generators, intended to be used as the battery charger/backup power for the site. These are ~20 kW generators, and can probably do about ~350Adc at 48 Vdc at the elevation that these are sited. The battery banks are 4 x 1000 Ahr GS Nanocarbon 48 battery strings and can gobble up the 350Adc easily when they are discharged. While discussing the generator operation with the generator supplier, we have found this generator isn't capable of charge control, or limiting its own output. The charge control functionality isn't necessary at this site because we really just need it to keep things online until the sun returns, a simple 54 VDC float voltage would work. However, without the generator being able to self-limit its output, we expect this generator to stall when started because it can't regulate its output current and will immediately become overloaded by the discharged batteries. I am trying to come up with some options to rectify this serious design issue. One idea that immediately came to mind was putting in some parallel solar charge controllers between the DC generator output and the battery bank. If the generator output could be dialed up to around 60-70 VDC, could parallel solar charge controllers be used for charge regulation? It would be kind of like charging a 48 V battery bank from a 70 V battery bank. MPPT isn't applicable, could the max current limit in the charge controller(s) be used to regulate charge rate? Will the charge controllers blow up? If not, what brand might work. Each site has 8 x Midnite Classic 150s but I'm open to other manufacturers if it would work. I am open to blowing up a charge controller in the shop but I thought it best to ask first. What are other ways to put this generator to use, and limit its load? Thanks for your input/comments -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Jan 28 22:45:13 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 20:45:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is there a charge controller do this? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e83e618-997f-f9dc-a20a-35fdc82de3c9@solarray.com> HI Mac; I don't think the generators will be overloaded.  i may be wrong, but I believe they will just put out what they can, and the batteries will slowly come up in voltage.  I have a large fork lift battery charger that is essentially unregulated, and it never has been overloaded.  It will definitely over charge the batteries if left on too long, however. The dead batteries are not going to act like a short circuit, they will have quite a bit of internal resistance that will limit the total current flow when charging.  Again, you didn't mention the brand or type of generator, so I can't say if I have experience with it, so this is just my uninformed  0.02 worth. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 1/28/18 8:23 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello wrenches, > > I'm working on 3 off-grid telecom sites.  They are designed to operate > solar only under most conditions but the project manager ordered a > custom-built 48 VDC generators, intended to be used as the battery > charger/backup power for the site. These are ~20 kW generators, and > can probably do about ~350Adc at 48 Vdc at the elevation that these > are sited.  The battery banks are 4 x 1000 Ahr GS Nanocarbon 48 > battery strings and can gobble up the 350Adc easily when they are > discharged. > > While discussing the generator operation with the generator supplier, > we have found this generator isn't capable of charge control, or > limiting its own output.  The charge control functionality isn't > necessary at this site because we really just need it to keep things > online until the sun returns, a simple 54 VDC float voltage would > work.  However, without the generator being able to self-limit its > output, we expect this generator to stall when started because it > can't regulate its output current and will immediately become > overloaded by the discharged batteries. > > I am trying to come up with some options to rectify this serious > design issue.  One idea that immediately came to mind was putting in > some parallel solar charge controllers between the DC generator output > and the battery bank.  If the generator output could be dialed up to > around 60-70 VDC, could parallel solar charge controllers be used for > charge regulation?  It would be kind of like charging a 48 V battery > bank from a 70 V battery bank.  MPPT isn't applicable, could the max > current limit in the charge controller(s) be used to regulate charge > rate?  Will the charge controllers blow up? If not, what brand might > work.  Each site has 8 x Midnite Classic 150s but I'm open to other > manufacturers if it would work.  I am open to blowing up a charge > controller in the shop but I thought it best to ask first. > > What are other ways to put this generator to use, and limit its load? > > > > Thanks for your input/comments > > > > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windsine at gmail.com Mon Jan 29 11:24:33 2018 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 10:24:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is there a charge controller do this? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I also do not believe the DC genset will be overloaded. It can be used (crudely) in a Bulk-only situation and be fine, as long as it shuts off when its supposed to, probably when charge current drops below a certain threshold (signalling that the batteries are becoming charged) or even on a timer based on bank capacity and load calculation. Its then important for the PV to finish the charging cycle for continued battery health. I know its not optimal, but can work well if set up properly. Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 9:23 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello wrenches, > > I'm working on 3 off-grid telecom sites. They are designed to operate > solar only under most conditions but the project manager ordered a > custom-built 48 VDC generators, intended to be used as the battery > charger/backup power for the site. These are ~20 kW generators, and can > probably do about ~350Adc at 48 Vdc at the elevation that these are sited. > The battery banks are 4 x 1000 Ahr GS Nanocarbon 48 battery strings and can > gobble up the 350Adc easily when they are discharged. > > While discussing the generator operation with the generator supplier, we > have found this generator isn't capable of charge control, or limiting its > own output. The charge control functionality isn't necessary at this site > because we really just need it to keep things online until the sun returns, > a simple 54 VDC float voltage would work. However, without the generator > being able to self-limit its output, we expect this generator to stall when > started because it can't regulate its output current and will immediately > become overloaded by the discharged batteries. > > I am trying to come up with some options to rectify this serious design > issue. One idea that immediately came to mind was putting in some parallel > solar charge controllers between the DC generator output and the battery > bank. If the generator output could be dialed up to around 60-70 VDC, > could parallel solar charge controllers be used for charge regulation? It > would be kind of like charging a 48 V battery bank from a 70 V battery > bank. MPPT isn't applicable, could the max current limit in the charge > controller(s) be used to regulate charge rate? Will the charge controllers > blow up? If not, what brand might work. Each site has 8 x Midnite Classic > 150s but I'm open to other manufacturers if it would work. I am open to > blowing up a charge controller in the shop but I thought it best to ask > first. > > What are other ways to put this generator to use, and limit its load? > > > > Thanks for your input/comments > > > > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Jan 29 12:31:52 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 13:31:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is there a charge controller do this? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: PWM chargers should work fine, dial the generators to about 50V. Then the batteries will charge to 50V float, and the solar will manage the stages after that. 4 x 60A PWM charger should do what you want. You can buy a 20A and see how that works so you don't waste much money. On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 11:23 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello wrenches, > > I'm working on 3 off-grid telecom sites. They are designed to operate > solar only under most conditions but the project manager ordered a > custom-built 48 VDC generators, intended to be used as the battery > charger/backup power for the site. These are ~20 kW generators, and can > probably do about ~350Adc at 48 Vdc at the elevation that these are sited. > The battery banks are 4 x 1000 Ahr GS Nanocarbon 48 battery strings and can > gobble up the 350Adc easily when they are discharged. > > While discussing the generator operation with the generator supplier, we > have found this generator isn't capable of charge control, or limiting its > own output. The charge control functionality isn't necessary at this site > because we really just need it to keep things online until the sun returns, > a simple 54 VDC float voltage would work. However, without the generator > being able to self-limit its output, we expect this generator to stall when > started because it can't regulate its output current and will immediately > become overloaded by the discharged batteries. > > I am trying to come up with some options to rectify this serious design > issue. One idea that immediately came to mind was putting in some parallel > solar charge controllers between the DC generator output and the battery > bank. If the generator output could be dialed up to around 60-70 VDC, > could parallel solar charge controllers be used for charge regulation? It > would be kind of like charging a 48 V battery bank from a 70 V battery > bank. MPPT isn't applicable, could the max current limit in the charge > controller(s) be used to regulate charge rate? Will the charge controllers > blow up? If not, what brand might work. Each site has 8 x Midnite Classic > 150s but I'm open to other manufacturers if it would work. I am open to > blowing up a charge controller in the shop but I thought it best to ask > first. > > What are other ways to put this generator to use, and limit its load? > > > > Thanks for your input/comments > > > > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Mon Jan 29 12:56:48 2018 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 12:56:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is there a charge controller do this? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C40B00C-0BBE-4134-A75C-21110D9DB33F@gmail.com> I have built several DC chargers using various forms of control basically before the MX 60 and the classic were available What would happen is you had to control their upper limits with something either a dump load or if all else failed a rheostat and constant attention! it would just run the keep running the voltage higher and higher I was doing it on 12 and 24 V battery banks You have to have a way to limit it or you would overvoltage the bank seriously There used to be a unit called the incharge, I believe trace originally built it but it’s no longer available I played with one it was a bear to program all magnetic switches and everything had to be done in order and if you got anything out of place you had to go back to the start and start all over again. It was more aggravation than my meager mind wanted to tolerate. Just more thoughts, Bob Ellison > On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 9:23 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> Hello wrenches, >> >> I'm working on 3 off-grid telecom sites. They are designed to operate solar only under most conditions but the project manager ordered a custom-built 48 VDC generators, intended to be used as the battery charger/backup power for the site. These are ~20 kW generators, and can probably do about ~350Adc at 48 Vdc at the elevation that these are sited. The battery banks are 4 x 1000 Ahr GS Nanocarbon 48 battery strings and can gobble up the 350Adc easily when they are discharged. >> >> While discussing the generator operation with the generator supplier, we have found this generator isn't capable of charge control, or limiting its own output. The charge control functionality isn't necessary at this site because we really just need it to keep things online until the sun returns, a simple 54 VDC float voltage would work. However, without the generator being able to self-limit its output, we expect this generator to stall when started because it can't regulate its output current and will immediately become overloaded by the discharged batteries. >> >> I am trying to come up with some options to rectify this serious design issue. One idea that immediately came to mind was putting in some parallel solar charge controllers between the DC generator output and the battery bank. If the generator output could be dialed up to around 60-70 VDC, could parallel solar charge controllers be used for charge regulation? It would be kind of like charging a 48 V battery bank from a 70 V battery bank. MPPT isn't applicable, could the max current limit in the charge controller(s) be used to regulate charge rate? Will the charge controllers blow up? If not, what brand might work. Each site has 8 x Midnite Classic 150s but I'm open to other manufacturers if it would work. I am open to blowing up a charge controller in the shop but I thought it best to ask first. >> >> What are other ways to put this generator to use, and limit its load? >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input/comments >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Jan 29 22:07:22 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 21:07:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is there a charge controller do this? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Friends, sorry to be slow. This fits the Morningstar relay driver exactly. It can look at the battery voltage and activate relays in multiple fashions. When the battery voltage is low at the recharge point, the relay driver can be set to start a two wire or three wire generator. This can be done with the relay driver using a start delay or not. Then when the generator is running after warm up, the relay driver can close a relay/contactor to load the generator. The voltage comes up to absorb volts where the battery will absorb a lot of current. It is possible to use the relay driver to insert a resistance via a contactor or just let the battery go to a higher voltage and shut the generator off. For example start the gen at 50 volts, let it charge to 58 volts, and shut it down. If the generator is large the battery voltage will rise too quickly and a relay/contactor with resistor should be used. There are a number of control scenarios. I think by the description the generator will overload and depending on generator field control either stall or reduce speed and keep running. Good luck On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 9:23 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello wrenches, > > I'm working on 3 off-grid telecom sites. They are designed to operate > solar only under most conditions but the project manager ordered a > custom-built 48 VDC generators, intended to be used as the battery > charger/backup power for the site. These are ~20 kW generators, and can > probably do about ~350Adc at 48 Vdc at the elevation that these are sited. > The battery banks are 4 x 1000 Ahr GS Nanocarbon 48 battery strings and can > gobble up the 350Adc easily when they are discharged. > > While discussing the generator operation with the generator supplier, we > have found this generator isn't capable of charge control, or limiting its > own output. The charge control functionality isn't necessary at this site > because we really just need it to keep things online until the sun returns, > a simple 54 VDC float voltage would work. However, without the generator > being able to self-limit its output, we expect this generator to stall when > started because it can't regulate its output current and will immediately > become overloaded by the discharged batteries. > > I am trying to come up with some options to rectify this serious design > issue. One idea that immediately came to mind was putting in some parallel > solar charge controllers between the DC generator output and the battery > bank. If the generator output could be dialed up to around 60-70 VDC, > could parallel solar charge controllers be used for charge regulation? It > would be kind of like charging a 48 V battery bank from a 70 V battery > bank. MPPT isn't applicable, could the max current limit in the charge > controller(s) be used to regulate charge rate? Will the charge controllers > blow up? If not, what brand might work. Each site has 8 x Midnite Classic > 150s but I'm open to other manufacturers if it would work. I am open to > blowing up a charge controller in the shop but I thought it best to ask > first. > > What are other ways to put this generator to use, and limit its load? > > > > Thanks for your input/comments > > > > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tom at solar-biz.com Tue Jan 30 10:42:27 2018 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 15:42:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] for all you Aquion installers In-Reply-To: <231D0586-CDF4-4DB9-A701-846BA9E10400@swnl.net> References: <231D0586-CDF4-4DB9-A701-846BA9E10400@swnl.net> Message-ID: We have a situation with a customer's Aquion (Understand there's now longer a warranty) I spent some hours looking at the Aquions. I tested the voltage of each cell. 4 out of the 6 stacks had a cell that was low, in the range of 0, 3, 4, volts, while all the rest were above 6. Each of the cells has a test point above the connector. The cells that were low each have corrosion on the positive terminal, such as you see in the photo. Any ideas as to what is causing this? Has anyone seen this before? Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Cell-corrosion-2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 58875 bytes Desc: Cell-corrosion-2.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Cell-corrosion-1-small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 96436 bytes Desc: Cell-corrosion-1-small.jpg URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 15:10:54 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 14:10:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] for all you Aquion installers In-Reply-To: References: <231D0586-CDF4-4DB9-A701-846BA9E10400@swnl.net> Message-ID: Since the cells stack in series the low voltage cell must be discharged. they are under compression, However If they are disconnected and charged separately perhaps they can be brought back. Are these batteries used in frequent cycles or just backup power? Lead Acid depends upon overcharge immunity, thee may not have that. If they are not overcharging the good cells the weak cells will continue to discharge until the battery has some very weak cells. On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 9:42 AM, Tom Duffy wrote: > We have a situation with a customer's Aquion (Understand there's now > longer a warranty) I spent some hours looking at the Aquions. I tested the > voltage of each cell. 4 out of the 6 stacks had a cell that was low, in > the range of 0, 3, 4, volts, while all the rest were above 6. > > Each of the cells has a test point above the connector. The cells that > were low each have corrosion on the positive terminal, such as you see in > the photo. Any ideas as to what is causing this? Has anyone seen this > before? > > > Kind regards > > Tom Duffy > Senior Solar Design Engineer > > > E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com > Main Number: 888-826-0939 > Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 > Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 > International: 575-539-2111 X 122 > SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 18:34:34 2018 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 17:34:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is there a charge controller do this? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61A66F02-9721-4A1A-9C43-2A31363496E1@gmail.com> I think DT is on the right track. We have a relay driver set up at the college. We have it set it for turning lights, alarms and motors on a certain voltages. The students also do a lab with it. It could do exactly what DT mentions. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 29, 2018, at 9:07 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > > Hi Friends, sorry to be slow. This fits the Morningstar relay driver exactly. It can look at the battery voltage and activate relays in multiple fashions. When the battery voltage is low at the recharge point, the relay driver can be set to start a two wire or three wire generator. This can be done with the relay driver using a start delay or not. Then when the generator is running after warm up, the relay driver can close a relay/contactor to load the generator. The voltage comes up to absorb volts where the battery will absorb a lot of current. It is possible to use the relay driver to insert a resistance via a contactor or just let the battery go to a higher voltage and shut the generator off. For example start the gen at 50 volts, let it charge to 58 volts, and shut it down. If the generator is large the battery voltage will rise too quickly and a relay/contactor with resistor should be used. There are a number of control scenarios. > > I think by the description the generator will overload and depending on generator field control either stall or reduce speed and keep running. Good luck > >> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 9:23 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> Hello wrenches, >> >> I'm working on 3 off-grid telecom sites. They are designed to operate solar only under most conditions but the project manager ordered a custom-built 48 VDC generators, intended to be used as the battery charger/backup power for the site. These are ~20 kW generators, and can probably do about ~350Adc at 48 Vdc at the elevation that these are sited. The battery banks are 4 x 1000 Ahr GS Nanocarbon 48 battery strings and can gobble up the 350Adc easily when they are discharged. >> >> While discussing the generator operation with the generator supplier, we have found this generator isn't capable of charge control, or limiting its own output. The charge control functionality isn't necessary at this site because we really just need it to keep things online until the sun returns, a simple 54 VDC float voltage would work. However, without the generator being able to self-limit its output, we expect this generator to stall when started because it can't regulate its output current and will immediately become overloaded by the discharged batteries. >> >> I am trying to come up with some options to rectify this serious design issue. One idea that immediately came to mind was putting in some parallel solar charge controllers between the DC generator output and the battery bank. If the generator output could be dialed up to around 60-70 VDC, could parallel solar charge controllers be used for charge regulation? It would be kind of like charging a 48 V battery bank from a 70 V battery bank. MPPT isn't applicable, could the max current limit in the charge controller(s) be used to regulate charge rate? Will the charge controllers blow up? If not, what brand might work. Each site has 8 x Midnite Classic 150s but I'm open to other manufacturers if it would work. I am open to blowing up a charge controller in the shop but I thought it best to ask first. >> >> What are other ways to put this generator to use, and limit its load? >> >> >> >> Thanks for your input/comments >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at gosolar.co.nz Wed Jan 31 03:39:07 2018 From: john at gosolar.co.nz (John) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 21:39:07 +1300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 12/24v garage door opener..... Message-ID: <008401d39a6e$f72ae560$e580b020$@gosolar.co.nz> Hi all, any recommendations where to find 12 or 24v garage door openers. Can't remember this coming up on the list beforehand. It is just for a single car garage door. Don't want to use an inverter, usually better to go direct to a dc motor. Once I have a suitable opener, I can design the rest of the system around it. Thanks for any/all input. John Veix, GoSolar Ltd, N.Z. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 05:46:18 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 04:46:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 12/24v garage door opener..... In-Reply-To: <008401d39a6e$f72ae560$e580b020$@gosolar.co.nz> References: <008401d39a6e$f72ae560$e580b020$@gosolar.co.nz> Message-ID: I have measured the energy used by a garage door opener on more than one occasion. they draw a fair amount of power while operating, however. they don't draw power otherwise so the total energy is very low. I am wondering if a low cost non pure sine inverter to AC operated off the switches which would be low voltage would not serve the same low energy use and reliability of a DC garage door opener On Jan 31, 2018 2:39 AM, "John" wrote: > Hi all, any recommendations where to find 12 or 24v garage door > openers. Can’t remember this coming up on the list beforehand. It is > just for a single car garage door. Don’t want to use an inverter, > usually better to go direct to a dc motor. > > Once I have a suitable opener, I can design the rest of the system around > it. > > Thanks for any/all input. John Veix, > GoSolar Ltd, N.Z. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Jan 31 10:23:12 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 08:23:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] My .02 - 12/24v garage door opener..... Message-ID: <000d01d39aa7$6e1e1ec0$4a5a5c40$@solarwork.com> Wow, this is flash from the past… I had almost forgotten about running DC in a house or garage. With todays inverter efficiency’s & costs VS. the cost of proper DC wire sizing, garage lighting?, & having to modify a reliable lift system, etc. Is there really a cost savings in the longs run? It’s a garage, are you going to need to run any AC tools, battery chargers? I mean it is a potential man cave, really now…. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 3:46 AM To: newrewrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 12/24v garage door opener..... I have measured the energy used by a garage door opener on more than one occasion. they draw a fair amount of power while operating, however. they don't draw power otherwise so the total energy is very low. I am wondering if a low cost non pure sine inverter to AC operated off the switches which would be low voltage would not serve the same low energy use and reliability of a DC garage door opener On Jan 31, 2018 2:39 AM, "John" > wrote: Hi all, any recommendations where to find 12 or 24v garage door openers. Can’t remember this coming up on the list beforehand. It is just for a single car garage door. Don’t want to use an inverter, usually better to go direct to a dc motor. Once I have a suitable opener, I can design the rest of the system around it. Thanks for any/all input. John Veix, GoSolar Ltd, N.Z. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jan 31 13:41:30 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 10:41:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] My .02 - 12/24v garage door opener..... In-Reply-To: <000d01d39aa7$6e1e1ec0$4a5a5c40$@solarwork.com> References: <000d01d39aa7$6e1e1ec0$4a5a5c40$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <51c42576afcdfe6aaf471c29c4678e10.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Not even going to mention building code and running DC wiring outside of the area (battery/inverter/chargers location) an inspector would allow. Even some of the very rural/extreme remote counties I work in know that they are ill-equipped to inspect DC wiring. Some will tell you there is no inspection for offgrid homes but if there is a fire they will say they told the installer no DC wiring except in the area of the battery. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Wow, this is flash from the past… I had almost forgotten about running > DC in a house or garage. > > With todays inverter efficiency’s & costs VS. the cost of proper DC wire > sizing, garage lighting?, & having to modify a reliable lift system, etc. > > Is there really a cost savings in the longs run? > > > > It’s a garage, are you going to need to run any AC tools, battery > chargers? > > I mean it is a potential man cave, really now…. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 > www.solarwork.biz > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Darryl Thayer > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 3:46 AM > To: newrewrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 12/24v garage door opener..... > > > > I have measured the energy used by a garage door opener on more than one > occasion. they draw a fair amount of power while operating, however. they > don't draw power otherwise so the total energy is very low. I am > wondering if a low cost non pure sine inverter to AC operated off the > switches which would be low voltage would not serve the same low energy > use and reliability of a DC garage door opener > > > > On Jan 31, 2018 2:39 AM, "John" > wrote: > > Hi all, any recommendations where to find 12 or 24v garage door openers. > Can’t remember this coming up on the list beforehand. It is just > for a single car garage door. Don’t want to use an inverter, usually > better to go direct to a dc motor. > > Once I have a suitable opener, I can design the rest of the system around > it. > > Thanks for any/all input. John Veix, > GoSolar Ltd, N.Z. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Jan 31 12:48:20 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 12:48:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 12/24v garage door opener..... Message-ID: <87g5hb39n9pfm9k30l5707hu.1517420596311@email.lge.com> I put a couple of a.c. powered garage door openers in my garage a couple of years ago. They both had an onboard 12v battery as backup that allowed a few operations when the grid was down. I used them for a couple of months that way before I got power run out from the house. I charged them with a small Morningstar CC and about a 20W module. I bet they could easily do what you are looking for, and be ready if AC ever makes it to them.I am pretty sure they are made by Genie, and my model is not made anymore, but they have a current equivalent. GlennSent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typographical errors. ------ Original message------From: JohnDate: Wed, Jan 31, 2018 3:39 AMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] 12/24v garage door opener..... Hi all,   any recommendations where to find 12 or 24v garage door openers.    Can’t remember this coming up on the list beforehand.   It is just for a single car garage door.    Don’t want to use an inverter, usually better to go direct to a dc motor.Once I have a suitable opener, I can design the rest of the system around it.Thanks for any/all input.                               John Veix,     GoSolar Ltd,   N.Z. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at gosolar.co.nz Wed Jan 31 14:27:29 2018 From: john at gosolar.co.nz (John) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 08:27:29 +1300 Subject: [RE-wrenches] My .02 - 12/24v garage door opener..... In-Reply-To: <51c42576afcdfe6aaf471c29c4678e10.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <000d01d39aa7$6e1e1ec0$4a5a5c40$@solarwork.com> <51c42576afcdfe6aaf471c29c4678e10.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <002a01d39ac9$8af67cf0$a0e376d0$@gosolar.co.nz> Hi all, perhaps a bit of clarification might help. 1) the location of the garage is in a block of flats/units where all the garages are at the end of the row and it is not possible to get a.c. into the end unit of 4 garages without having to obtain permission of all the other 3 garage owners, which has its own complications and is highly unlikely. 2) it is not being approached as a *cost saving* measure as someone suggested. It is merely a practical application where a.c. is not available. 3) another person mentioned that it is high energy use for a short time, therefore the total energy per day is low. 4) am I to understand that there is no readily available *off-the-shelf* solution for a 12/24v garage door opener?? Thanks for the input - John V +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Thursday, 1 February 2018 7:42 a.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] My .02 - 12/24v garage door opener..... Not even going to mention building code and running DC wiring outside of the area (battery/inverter/chargers location) an inspector would allow. Even some of the very rural/extreme remote counties I work in know that they are ill-equipped to inspect DC wiring. Some will tell you there is no inspection for offgrid homes but if there is a fire they will say they told the installer no DC wiring except in the area of the battery. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Wow, this is flash from the past… I had almost forgotten about > running DC in a house or garage. > > With todays inverter efficiency’s & costs VS. the cost of proper DC > wire sizing, garage lighting?, & having to modify a reliable lift system, etc. > > Is there really a cost savings in the longs run? > > > > It’s a garage, are you going to need to run any AC tools, battery > chargers? > > I mean it is a potential man cave, really now…. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 > www.solarwork.biz > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 3:46 AM > To: newrewrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 12/24v garage door opener..... > > > > I have measured the energy used by a garage door opener on more than > one occasion. they draw a fair amount of power while operating, > however. they don't draw power otherwise so the total energy is very > low. I am wondering if a low cost non pure sine inverter to AC > operated off the switches which would be low voltage would not serve > the same low energy use and reliability of a DC garage door opener > > > > On Jan 31, 2018 2:39 AM, "John" > wrote: > > Hi all, any recommendations where to find 12 or 24v garage door openers. > Can’t remember this coming up on the list beforehand. It is just > for a single car garage door. Don’t want to use an inverter, usually > better to go direct to a dc motor. > > Once I have a suitable opener, I can design the rest of the system > around it. > > Thanks for any/all input. John Veix, > GoSolar Ltd, N.Z. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From Tom at solar-biz.com Wed Jan 31 14:14:47 2018 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 19:14:47 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] for all you Aquion installers In-Reply-To: References: <231D0586-CDF4-4DB9-A701-846BA9E10400@swnl.net> Message-ID: Thanks Darryl I’m going to have the installer bring the offending battery here We’ll see how it goes Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300] Your 5-star rating really matters to us. Click to rate! Solar Biz™ team works hard to provide you the best customer service. If we don't deserve a 5-star rating, please contact us directly. We'll do what it takes to win your approval. Please note my new E-Mail E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 3:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] for all you Aquion installers Since the cells stack in series the low voltage cell must be discharged. they are under compression, However If they are disconnected and charged separately perhaps they can be brought back. Are these batteries used in frequent cycles or just backup power? Lead Acid depends upon overcharge immunity, thee may not have that. If they are not overcharging the good cells the weak cells will continue to discharge until the battery has some very weak cells. On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 9:42 AM, Tom Duffy > wrote: We have a situation with a customer's Aquion (Understand there's now longer a warranty) I spent some hours looking at the Aquions. I tested the voltage of each cell. 4 out of the 6 stacks had a cell that was low, in the range of 0, 3, 4, volts, while all the rest were above 6. Each of the cells has a test point above the connector. The cells that were low each have corrosion on the positive terminal, such as you see in the photo. Any ideas as to what is causing this? Has anyone seen this before? Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5987 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 21:11:01 2018 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 18:11:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] for all you Aquion installers In-Reply-To: References: <231D0586-CDF4-4DB9-A701-846BA9E10400@swnl.net> Message-ID: To clarify what Darryl is saying, that is to separate them electrically only. To loosen the main nut holding the stack together is to destroy them permanently. I inherited five stacks that had been in service with good results. I had actually been working the system hard remotely using OpticsRE, so I know they were good. When they were taken out of service for some reason the uninstaller loosened all the main nuts on them. They are now worthless and will not hold a charge, even a 300 watt array will not keep them up, and the slightest load drops them to unusable voltage. So, again don't loosen the main nut for any reason. If you have some I'd consider staking that nut so it cannot be loosened without drilling. Brad AEE Solar On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 12:10 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > Since the cells stack in series the low voltage cell must be discharged. > they are under compression, However If they are disconnected and charged > separately perhaps they can be brought back. Are these batteries used in > frequent cycles or just backup power? Lead Acid depends upon overcharge > immunity, thee may not have that. If they are not overcharging the good > cells the weak cells will continue to discharge until the battery has some > very weak cells. > > On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 9:42 AM, Tom Duffy wrote: > >> We have a situation with a customer's Aquion (Understand there's now >> longer a warranty) I spent some hours looking at the Aquions. I tested the >> voltage of each cell. 4 out of the 6 stacks had a cell that was low, in >> the range of 0, 3, 4, volts, while all the rest were above 6. >> >> Each of the cells has a test point above the connector. The cells that >> were low each have corrosion on the positive terminal, such as you see in >> the photo. Any ideas as to what is causing this? Has anyone seen this >> before? >> >> >> Kind regards >> >> Tom Duffy >> Senior Solar Design Engineer >> >> >> E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com >> Main Number: 888-826-0939 >> Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 >> Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 >> International: 575-539-2111 X 122 >> SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Feb 1 11:08:44 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 08:08:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] EMP and Solar Message-ID: <2b81b605ee2ec19ba61c66f4b7d654ef.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> A client sent me this link below. They are marketing this device which was tested for a very fast response compared to a lighting arrestor designed slower response requirement. Comments if you have time to read it? http://www.myempshield.com/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 15:18:43 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 10:18:43 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] My .02 - 12/24v garage door opener..... In-Reply-To: <000d01d39aa7$6e1e1ec0$4a5a5c40$@solarwork.com> References: <000d01d39aa7$6e1e1ec0$4a5a5c40$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: John Samlex makes small pure sine wave inverters from 12 to 48 volts and down to 150 watts Jerry On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 5:23 AM, Dana wrote: > Wow, this is flash from the past… I had almost forgotten about running DC > in a house or garage. > > With todays inverter efficiency’s & costs VS. the cost of proper DC wire > sizing, garage lighting?, & having to modify a reliable lift system, etc. > > Is there really a cost savings in the longs run? > > > > It’s a garage, are you going to need to run any AC tools, battery > chargers? > > I mean it is a potential man cave, really now…. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 <(208)%20721-7003> > dana at solarwork.com * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Darryl Thayer > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 31, 2018 3:46 AM > *To:* newrewrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 12/24v garage door opener..... > > > > I have measured the energy used by a garage door opener on more than one > occasion. they draw a fair amount of power while operating, however. they > don't draw power otherwise so the total energy is very low. I am wondering > if a low cost non pure sine inverter to AC operated off the switches which > would be low voltage would not serve the same low energy use and > reliability of a DC garage door opener > > > > On Jan 31, 2018 2:39 AM, "John" wrote: > > Hi all, any recommendations where to find 12 or 24v garage door > openers. Can’t remember this coming up on the list beforehand. It is > just for a single car garage door. Don’t want to use an inverter, > usually better to go direct to a dc motor. > > Once I have a suitable opener, I can design the rest of the system around > it. > > Thanks for any/all input. John Veix, > GoSolar Ltd, N.Z. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Feb 1 15:30:14 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 12:30:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] EMP and Solar In-Reply-To: <2b81b605ee2ec19ba61c66f4b7d654ef.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <2b81b605ee2ec19ba61c66f4b7d654ef.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: It is designed/tested to be much faster response than a lightning or surge protector which it is not designed for. If you have time to to read thru the pages I would appreciate your input. The different pages take about an hour or so to read. The one time use EMP used on some some of the spy sats I saw was a very formidable device. The Mil Spec this is tested for was similar I think. Been alot of years. In our small town up here in the Sierra, Wiley labs did the testing on several of those one time devices for Lockheed Martin. It would be nice to get this over to Midnite and get their comments. I think I have used over 500 of their SPD's and while many people could care less about surviving in this dismal situation, I know there are many who plan on it. The Mormon church for instance. I am not a Mormon but they are the most prepared for many bad things. The links are pretty good and these folks have been around for quite some time. http://www.myempshield.com/Resources.htm As I asked in the first post, has anyone seen anything like this out there? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 15:23:45 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 12:23:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] My .02 - 12/24v garage door opener..... In-Reply-To: References: <000d01d39aa7$6e1e1ec0$4a5a5c40$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: So why not use one of the garage doors that has a built in backup battery and just charge the built in battery directly? Its got all the internals already done? Install a CC and PV module and you are all done? Jay peltz power > On Feb 1, 2018, at 12:18 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > John > Samlex makes small pure sine wave inverters from 12 to 48 volts and down to 150 watts > Jerry > > On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 5:23 AM, Dana > wrote: > Wow, this is flash from the past… I had almost forgotten about running DC in a house or garage. > > With todays inverter efficiency’s & costs VS. the cost of proper DC wire sizing, garage lighting?, & having to modify a reliable lift system, etc. > > Is there really a cost savings in the longs run? > > > > It’s a garage, are you going to need to run any AC tools, battery chargers? > > I mean it is a potential man cave, really now…. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 3:46 AM > To: newrewrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 12/24v garage door opener..... > > > > I have measured the energy used by a garage door opener on more than one occasion. they draw a fair amount of power while operating, however. they don't draw power otherwise so the total energy is very low. I am wondering if a low cost non pure sine inverter to AC operated off the switches which would be low voltage would not serve the same low energy use and reliability of a DC garage door opener > > > > On Jan 31, 2018 2:39 AM, "John" > wrote: > > Hi all, any recommendations where to find 12 or 24v garage door openers. Can’t remember this coming up on the list beforehand. It is just for a single car garage door. Don’t want to use an inverter, usually better to go direct to a dc motor. > > Once I have a suitable opener, I can design the rest of the system around it. > > Thanks for any/all input. John Veix, GoSolar Ltd, N.Z. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Thu Feb 1 18:58:25 2018 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 16:58:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for a Hanwha Q.Cell Message-ID: <80BF3059-7C84-4C3F-AA2C-2C6489617E0D@skyfireenergy.com> Hey Wrenches, We are looking for a single Hanwha Q.Peak-G4.1/SC 305W If anyone has a lead for me please respond off-list. Mucho thanks!!! Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 21:47:06 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 20:47:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] My .02 - 12/24v garage door opener..... In-Reply-To: References: <000d01d39aa7$6e1e1ec0$4a5a5c40$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I took a look at one my customer's garage usage, I was not there, but Egauge said total load when opening or closing the garage door, was 650 watts for about 30 seconds. meaning 5.6 Wh for a single operation. twice a day 22.4 Wh daily use two open and close cycles. but I see a background load besides the light, (LED about 7 watts for 3 minutes= 0.35 Wh). There is a background load of about 100 watts, Possible the radio receiver? or? This is the gorilla in the room. 100W for 24 hrs is 2400 Wh. So if this is correct the pushbutton is a real problem. perhaps a button on the door to open instead of radio? Also using the 7 day to 50% rule at 25 Wh/day the battery will need to be 30 AH @12 volt and the solar module would be 90 watts using 2 SSH/day On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 2:18 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > John > Samlex makes small pure sine wave inverters from 12 to 48 volts and down > to 150 watts > Jerry > > On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 5:23 AM, Dana wrote: > >> Wow, this is flash from the past… I had almost forgotten about running >> DC in a house or garage. >> >> With todays inverter efficiency’s & costs VS. the cost of proper DC wire >> sizing, garage lighting?, & having to modify a reliable lift system, etc. >> >> Is there really a cost savings in the longs run? >> >> >> >> It’s a garage, are you going to need to run any AC tools, battery >> chargers? >> >> I mean it is a potential man cave, really now…. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---------------- >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *C - 208.721.7003 <(208)%20721-7003> >> dana at solarwork.com * >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> >> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Darryl Thayer >> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 31, 2018 3:46 AM >> *To:* newrewrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 12/24v garage door opener..... >> >> >> >> I have measured the energy used by a garage door opener on more than one >> occasion. they draw a fair amount of power while operating, however. they >> don't draw power otherwise so the total energy is very low. I am wondering >> if a low cost non pure sine inverter to AC operated off the switches which >> would be low voltage would not serve the same low energy use and >> reliability of a DC garage door opener >> >> >> >> On Jan 31, 2018 2:39 AM, "John" wrote: >> >> Hi all, any recommendations where to find 12 or 24v garage door >> openers. Can’t remember this coming up on the list beforehand. It is >> just for a single car garage door. Don’t want to use an inverter, >> usually better to go direct to a dc motor. >> >> Once I have a suitable opener, I can design the rest of the system around >> it. >> >> Thanks for any/all input. John Veix, >> GoSolar Ltd, N.Z. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phil at insoltechsolar.com Sat Feb 3 19:06:08 2018 From: phil at insoltechsolar.com (Philip Lawes Insoltech) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 16:06:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] To all fellow wrenches Message-ID: <027701d39d4b$f5591380$e00b3a80$@insoltechsolar.com> We are looking for a replacement module model number PM250M00_260 by AUO BenQ. Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 15:26:23 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 12:26:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback FM-100 CC Message-ID: HI All, Does anyone have any experience with the Outback FM -100 CC? thoughts, pros cons etc? Its new but I’m sure there are some of you out there that have been using it. thanks jay peltz power From daniel at greenwired.com Mon Feb 5 16:20:52 2018 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel Tittmann) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 14:20:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small commercial or even smaller residential car ports Message-ID: I am wondering if there is anyone out there that knows of a solar car port manufacturer that can supply equipment for smaller carport structures. All of the companies I have reached out to only want to deal with larger projects, 500 kw and up. who is making structures for small commercial or even residential clients? We happy to take on design and engineering in house we just want to use the racking equipment. Thanks Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 Ext. 500 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Mon Feb 5 16:32:10 2018 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 14:32:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small commercial or even smaller residential car ports In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Daniel, We have worked with Orion Carport Systems in the past on a 25kW system. http://orioncarports.com/carport-systems/leto/ Cheers, Sam On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 2:20 PM, Daniel Tittmann wrote: > I am wondering if there is anyone out there that knows of a solar car port > manufacturer that can supply equipment for smaller carport structures. All > of the companies I have reached out to only want to deal with larger > projects, 500 kw and up. who is making structures for small commercial or > even residential clients? We happy to take on design and engineering in > house we just want to use the racking equipment. > Thanks > Daniel > > Daniel Tittmann > CTO > Greenwired > www.greenwired.com > > > 707-923-2001 Ext. 500 <(707)%20923-2001> (office) > 707-206-5088 <(707)%20206-5088> (Cell) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g.rochlin at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 17:56:13 2018 From: g.rochlin at gmail.com (Gary Rochlin) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 14:56:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small commercial or even smaller residential car ports In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <029401d39ed4$86298640$927c92c0$@gmail.com> Try Schletter https://www.schletter.us/ Gary Rochlin / Managing Partner Blue Sky Energy g.rochlin at blue-sky-energy.com 310.422.2908 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Sam Haraldson Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 1:32 PM To: RE-wrenches ; daniel at greenwired.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Small commercial or even smaller residential car ports Daniel, We have worked with Orion Carport Systems in the past on a 25kW system. http://orioncarports.com/carport-systems/leto/ Cheers, Sam On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 2:20 PM, Daniel Tittmann > wrote: I am wondering if there is anyone out there that knows of a solar car port manufacturer that can supply equipment for smaller carport structures. All of the companies I have reached out to only want to deal with larger projects, 500 kw and up. who is making structures for small commercial or even residential clients? We happy to take on design and engineering in house we just want to use the racking equipment. Thanks Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com 707-923-2001 Ext. 500 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Mon Feb 5 18:01:49 2018 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 18:01:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small commercial or even smaller residential car ports References: Message-ID: <302C3360BE6F47AB80EE3B000A129688@PeterPC> Daniel We had a similar problem. Just ended up designing our own, built them like pergolas and used Iron Ridge XR1000 rail. 12.5 KW, 4 large parking spaces. Worked out great, just had to find a decent contractor to build it to meet code. The Orion system looks great for larger systems. Peter Giroux ASAE ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel Tittmann To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 4:20 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small commercial or even smaller residential car ports I am wondering if there is anyone out there that knows of a solar car port manufacturer that can supply equipment for smaller carport structures. All of the companies I have reached out to only want to deal with larger projects, 500 kw and up. who is making structures for small commercial or even residential clients? We happy to take on design and engineering in house we just want to use the racking equipment. Thanks Daniel Daniel Tittmann CTO Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-923-2001 Ext. 500 (office) 707-206-5088 (Cell) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 22:04:11 2018 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 19:04:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Coupling Message-ID: Hi Folks.....Outback no longer supports AC coupling on their Radian systems. My understanding is that it is because of the unreliability of the ROCB (remote operated circuit breaker) they were using. I have heard that they are imminently going to release a white paper about AC coupling using a solid state relay instead. I was wondering if any of you have done this? Do you have any advice about the settings for the Auxiliary output settings that control the relay? Looking for programming advice on the mate 3. I talked to Outback today and they said until the white paper is released they won't be giving instructions or advice on this capability. They did tell me not to use the AC couple mode already programmed into the mate 3 auxiliary output control. Thanks in advance for any advice! On or off list!! Cheers. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jryago at dtisolar.com Mon Feb 5 22:28:18 2018 From: jryago at dtisolar.com (jryago at dtisolar.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 22:28:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have installed a number of AC coupled systems over the years and believe we may have some of the first systems installed. Several are over 15 years old now and represent multiple brands and combinations of inverters. None of these systems relied on frequency shift by battery inverter to force solar inverter off line. So far no problems. All of these systems utilized a 30 or 60 amp power relay having a 120 vac coil controlled by a smaller control relay having a 12 vdc coil directly controlled from aux. relay contacts in inverter. High battery voltage triggered array disconnect from secondary breaker panel on output side of battery inverter. Only design issues are getting a fail-safe arrangement of the N.O. and N.C. relay contacts correct, and program settings to avoid boiling AGM batteries. Jeff Yago Sent from my iPad Jeff Yago DTI Solar. Inc. 804-457-9566 jryago at dtisolar.com Although no trees were killed in the sending of this email, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced..... > On Feb 5, 2018, at 10:04 PM, Kirpal wrote: > > Hi Folks.....Outback no longer supports AC coupling on their Radian systems. My understanding is that it is because of the unreliability of the ROCB (remote operated circuit breaker) they were using. I have heard that they are imminently going to release a white paper about AC coupling using a solid state relay instead. I was wondering if any of you have done this? Do you have any advice about the settings for the Auxiliary output settings that control the relay? Looking for programming advice on the mate 3. I talked to Outback today and they said until the white paper is released they won't be giving instructions or advice on this capability. They did tell me not to use the AC couple mode already programmed into the mate 3 auxiliary output control. > Thanks in advance for any advice! On or off list!! > Cheers. > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Feb 6 10:55:31 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 05:55:31 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Coupling Message-ID: <3hrw4ke8p2wuwosf2yp57u62.1517932531591@email.android.com> KirpalWe have used tge solid state contactors but have not been happy with there reliability as they ofen have failed in the open position, the old coil contactors have been far better over time and seam to cost less. FYI, the solid state high amp contactors live longer with a heat sink.Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: jryago at dtisolar.com Date: 2/5/18 5:28 PM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback AC Coupling We have installed a number of AC coupled systems over the years and believe we may have some of the first systems installed.  Several are over 15 years old now and represent multiple brands and combinations of inverters.  None of these systems relied on frequency shift by battery inverter to force solar inverter off line.  So far no problems. All of these systems utilized a 30 or 60 amp power relay having a 120 vac coil controlled by a smaller control relay having a 12 vdc coil directly controlled from aux. relay contacts in inverter.  High battery voltage triggered array disconnect from secondary breaker panel on output side of battery inverter.  Only design issues are getting a fail-safe arrangement of the N.O. and N.C. relay contacts correct, and program settings to avoid boiling AGM batteries. Jeff Yago Sent from my iPad Jeff Yago DTI Solar. Inc.804-457-9566jryago at dtisolar.com Although no trees were killed in the sending of this email, a largenumber of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.....  On Feb 5, 2018, at 10:04 PM, Kirpal wrote: Hi Folks.....Outback no longer supports AC coupling on their Radian systems.  My understanding is that it is because of the unreliability of the ROCB (remote operated circuit breaker) they were using.  I have heard that they are imminently going to release a white paper about AC coupling using a solid state relay instead.  I was wondering if any of you have done this?  Do you have any advice about the settings for the Auxiliary output settings that control the relay?  Looking for programming advice on the mate 3.  I talked to Outback today and they said until the white paper is released they won't be giving instructions or advice on this capability.  They did tell me not to use the AC couple mode already programmed into the mate 3 auxiliary output control. Thanks in advance for any advice! On or off list!!Cheers. Sunny Regards, Kirpal KhalsaOregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Tue Feb 6 14:56:37 2018 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 11:56:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] S-Flex components needed Message-ID: Wrenches, We're looking for S-Flex mids and ends for a retrofit we are doing. S-Flex no longer supports their ground-mount products. Part numbers/quantities are: *(qty 100) 702-0381 Module End-Clamp 30-50mm * *(qty 50) 700-0155 Module Mid Clamp 30-50mm-with Bonding Clip* Please contact me if anyone has/knows of a surplus of these pieces. Thanks. -- *Lorenzo Ortiz Commercial Design/Support* lorenzo at cal-solar.com* (530) 274-3671* -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Feb 6 15:00:59 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 13:00:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] S-Flex components needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The clamps should be the same, whether they are used for ground mount or roof applications.  Also, I may have some left over S Flex hardware we could send you. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/6/18 12:56 PM, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: > Wrenches, > > We're looking for S-Flex mids and ends for a retrofit we are doing. > S-Flex no longer supports their ground-mount products. > > Part numbers/quantities are: > > *(qty 100) 702-0381 Module End-Clamp 30-50mm * > *(qty 50) 700-0155 Module Mid Clamp 30-50mm-with Bonding Clip* > * > * > Please contact me if anyone has/knows of a surplus of these pieces. > > Thanks. > > > -- > _Lorenzo Ortiz   Commercial Design/Support_ > _ > _ > ** lorenzo at cal-solar.com *(530) 274-3671* > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Feb 6 19:06:33 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 19:06:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 12/24v garage door opener..... In-Reply-To: <87g5hb39n9pfm9k30l5707hu.1517420596311@email.lge.com> References: <87g5hb39n9pfm9k30l5707hu.1517420596311@email.lge.com> Message-ID: <007201d39fa7$850ec990$8f2c5cb0$@glbcc.com> My bad – they are Chamberlain openers, if it still matters. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 12:48 PM To: John ; re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 12/24v garage door opener..... I put a couple of a.c. powered garage door openers in my garage a couple of years ago. They both had an onboard 12v battery as backup that allowed a few operations when the grid was down. I used them for a couple of months that way before I got power run out from the house. I charged them with a small Morningstar CC and about a 20W module. I bet they could easily do what you are looking for, and be ready if AC ever makes it to them. I am pretty sure they are made by Genie, and my model is not made anymore, but they have a current equivalent. Glenn Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typographical errors. ------ Original message------ From: John Date: Wed, Jan 31, 2018 3:39 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ; Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] 12/24v garage door opener..... Hi all, any recommendations where to find 12 or 24v garage door openers. Can’t remember this coming up on the list beforehand. It is just for a single car garage door. Don’t want to use an inverter, usually better to go direct to a dc motor. Once I have a suitable opener, I can design the rest of the system around it. Thanks for any/all input. &nb sp; John Veix, GoSolar Ltd, N.Z. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 10:04:59 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 11:04:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Auger for ground mount Message-ID: I'm taking on construction of a ground mount system of about 30KW. My previous experience has entailed using a utility truck mounted auger for the holes but that's expensive. The soil type here is fairly soft, not rock. There's no contractor available with a skid steer mounted auger. I need at least four inch holes, three foot deep. Siz inch would be better. What are the options? Any novel ideas? We have a service truck with a 2 ton hydraulic crane, anything I can mount to that? I don't mind fabricating brackets and mounts, welding parts to it. -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From djibrilfall at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 10:55:10 2018 From: djibrilfall at gmail.com (James "Jibril" Gustafson) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 08:55:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Auger for ground mount In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chris, In the past I have had success with renting a skid steer with auger, or a mini excavator with auger. With a little practice you can become proficient with the machines, the hardest pasrt is getting a plumb hole. The mini excavator is nice, with a thin digger bucket you can also do your trenching. Is fun to learn how to operate these machines. Good Luck, Jibril On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 8:04 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > I'm taking on construction of a ground mount system of about 30KW. My > previous experience has entailed using a utility truck mounted auger for > the holes but that's expensive. The soil type here is fairly soft, not > rock. There's no contractor available with a skid steer mounted auger. I > need at least four inch holes, three foot deep. Siz inch would be better. > What are the options? Any novel ideas? > We have a service truck with a 2 ton hydraulic crane, anything I can mount > to that? I don't mind fabricating brackets and mounts, welding parts to it. > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 <(264)%20235-5670> > 869.662.5670 <(869)%20662-5670> > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 11:23:04 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 12:23:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Auger for ground mount In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a two man gas powered unit, not very confident of it. On Feb 9, 2018 11:55, "James "Jibril" Gustafson" wrote: > Hi Chris, > > In the past I have had success with renting a skid steer with auger, or a > mini excavator with auger. With a little practice you can become > proficient with the machines, the hardest pasrt is getting a plumb hole. > The mini excavator is nice, with a thin digger bucket you can also do your > trenching. Is fun to learn how to operate these machines. > > Good Luck, > > Jibril > > > On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 8:04 AM, Chris Mason > wrote: > >> I'm taking on construction of a ground mount system of about 30KW. My >> previous experience has entailed using a utility truck mounted auger for >> the holes but that's expensive. The soil type here is fairly soft, not >> rock. There's no contractor available with a skid steer mounted auger. I >> need at least four inch holes, three foot deep. Siz inch would be better. >> What are the options? Any novel ideas? >> We have a service truck with a 2 ton hydraulic crane, anything I can >> mount to that? I don't mind fabricating brackets and mounts, welding parts >> to it. >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> 264.235.5670 <(264)%20235-5670> >> 869.662.5670 <(869)%20662-5670> >> Skype: netconcepts >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 11:35:50 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 06:35:50 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Auger for ground mount In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris Azk around for a fence contractor, they generally have what you need Jerry On Feb 9, 2018 5:05 AM, "Chris Mason" wrote: > I'm taking on construction of a ground mount system of about 30KW. My > previous experience has entailed using a utility truck mounted auger for > the holes but that's expensive. The soil type here is fairly soft, not > rock. There's no contractor available with a skid steer mounted auger. I > need at least four inch holes, three foot deep. Siz inch would be better. > What are the options? Any novel ideas? > We have a service truck with a 2 ton hydraulic crane, anything I can mount > to that? I don't mind fabricating brackets and mounts, welding parts to it. > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 <(264)%20235-5670> > 869.662.5670 <(869)%20662-5670> > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Fri Feb 9 11:48:24 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 11:48:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Auger for ground mount In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: While I've been using the Zilla platform with an auger attachment for a mini excavator with good luck. With that said I'm looking at Nuance Energy and their Osprey mount which requires a hammer drill. Anyone tried this yet? Christopher On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Chris > Azk around for a fence contractor, they generally have what you need > Jerry > > On Feb 9, 2018 5:05 AM, "Chris Mason" > wrote: > >> I'm taking on construction of a ground mount system of about 30KW. My >> previous experience has entailed using a utility truck mounted auger for >> the holes but that's expensive. The soil type here is fairly soft, not >> rock. There's no contractor available with a skid steer mounted auger. I >> need at least four inch holes, three foot deep. Siz inch would be better. >> What are the options? Any novel ideas? >> We have a service truck with a 2 ton hydraulic crane, anything I can >> mount to that? I don't mind fabricating brackets and mounts, welding parts >> to it. >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> 264.235.5670 <(264)%20235-5670> >> 869.662.5670 <(869)%20662-5670> >> Skype: netconcepts >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sunmountain at netstep.net Fri Feb 9 12:04:48 2018 From: Sunmountain at netstep.net (Larry Brown) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 12:04:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Auger for ground mount In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4137734F-7E4E-41BC-A262-5D2C4EBEDFE6@netstep.net> We have been using Techno Metal Posts Helical Piers with much success for many years Larry Larry Brown Sun Mountain 845-657-8096 Sunmountain at netstep.net Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 9, 2018, at 11:48 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > > While I've been using the Zilla platform with an auger attachment for a mini excavator with good luck. With that said I'm looking at Nuance Energy and their Osprey mount which requires a hammer drill. Anyone tried this yet? > > Christopher > >> On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >> Chris >> Azk around for a fence contractor, they generally have what you need >> Jerry >> >>> On Feb 9, 2018 5:05 AM, "Chris Mason" wrote: >>> I'm taking on construction of a ground mount system of about 30KW. My previous experience has entailed using a utility truck mounted auger for the holes but that's expensive. The soil type here is fairly soft, not rock. There's no contractor available with a skid steer mounted auger. I need at least four inch holes, three foot deep. Siz inch would be better. >>> What are the options? Any novel ideas? >>> We have a service truck with a 2 ton hydraulic crane, anything I can mount to that? I don't mind fabricating brackets and mounts, welding parts to it. >>> >>> -- >>> Chris Mason >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> Generac Generators Industrial technician >>> >>> www.cometsolar.com >>> 264.235.5670 >>> 869.662.5670 >>> Skype: netconcepts >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > > -- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Fri Feb 9 10:44:00 2018 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 15:44:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Auger for ground mount In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <555FCFD6-2B68-4000-94D2-2ACFE3649A83@enphaseenergy.com> I’d use a two-man gas auger. Nick Soleil Product Manager Enphase Energy Cell: 707-321-2937 On Feb 9, 2018, at 7:05 AM, Chris Mason > wrote: I'm taking on construction of a ground mount system of about 30KW. My previous experience has entailed using a utility truck mounted auger for the holes but that's expensive. The soil type here is fairly soft, not rock. There's no contractor available with a skid steer mounted auger. I need at least four inch holes, three foot deep. Siz inch would be better. What are the options? Any novel ideas? We have a service truck with a 2 ton hydraulic crane, anything I can mount to that? I don't mind fabricating brackets and mounts, welding parts to it. -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 12:13:27 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 13:13:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Auger for ground mount In-Reply-To: <4137734F-7E4E-41BC-A262-5D2C4EBEDFE6@netstep.net> References: <4137734F-7E4E-41BC-A262-5D2C4EBEDFE6@netstep.net> Message-ID: They require you contact a certified installer. That's not happening here. On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 1:04 PM, Larry Brown wrote: > We have been using Techno Metal Posts Helical Piers with much success for > many years > Larry > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > 845-657-8096 <(845)%20657-8096> > Sunmountain at netstep.net > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 9, 2018, at 11:48 AM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: > > While I've been using the Zilla platform with an auger attachment for a > mini excavator with good luck. With that said I'm looking at Nuance Energy > and their Osprey mount which requires a hammer drill. Anyone tried this yet? > > Christopher > > On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Chris >> Azk around for a fence contractor, they generally have what you need >> Jerry >> >> On Feb 9, 2018 5:05 AM, "Chris Mason" >> wrote: >> >>> I'm taking on construction of a ground mount system of about 30KW. My >>> previous experience has entailed using a utility truck mounted auger for >>> the holes but that's expensive. The soil type here is fairly soft, not >>> rock. There's no contractor available with a skid steer mounted auger. I >>> need at least four inch holes, three foot deep. Siz inch would be better. >>> What are the options? Any novel ideas? >>> We have a service truck with a 2 ton hydraulic crane, anything I can >>> mount to that? I don't mind fabricating brackets and mounts, welding parts >>> to it. >>> >>> -- >>> Chris Mason >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>> Solar Design Engineer >>> Generac Generators Industrial technician >>> >>> www.cometsolar.com >>> 264.235.5670 <(264)%20235-5670> >>> 869.662.5670 <(869)%20662-5670> >>> Skype: netconcepts >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 <(585)%20229-2083> or Cell 585-748-1870 > <(585)%20748-1870> * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Feb 9 15:32:31 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 13:32:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 HP well pump soft start at 120 VAC Message-ID: <003c01d3a1e5$24af5750$6e0e05f0$@solarwork.com> Hey all you solar wise guys, I am looking for a recommendation based on your experience, not just data sheets for a 120 volt-9.8 amp-1/2HP well pump soft starter. Every time the well pump starts the SW4024 groans and the lights flicker. There are a lot of units that claim to soft start a ½ HP, but the reality is that they claim ½ HP but are limited to 3.3 amp+/- output. I asked how this is and was met with the usual, “gee gosh I am not sure.” I have one in hand now from ABB that is guilty of this claim. Some units claim to meet the spec but then you must limit the wire length to 30 meters. The well is 150’ from the house & 120 ft deep so a 270’ wire run with what the well guy threw in 18 years ago. VFW cable [multi strand cable] is a partial answer but not down in the well. Somewhere down the road the inverter & the well pump will get replaced but for now it is working. The newer 3PH wild AC drives are amazing on a Radian Inverter. You cannot even tell the well is pumping till it has been for a while and the fans kick on. Suggestions & directions that have proven reliable for you? Thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Fri Feb 9 19:24:43 2018 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 19:24:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 HP well pump soft start at 120 VAC In-Reply-To: <003c01d3a1e5$24af5750$6e0e05f0$@solarwork.com> References: <003c01d3a1e5$24af5750$6e0e05f0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Hi Dana, We have been using Grundfos SQ-O 1/2 hp, 5 GPM (or they have a 10 GPM model) soft start pumps for years, with great outcomes. We have sold 60 or so over the years with no returns. Daryl > Hey all you solar wise guys, > > > > I am looking for a recommendation based on your experience, not just data > sheets for a 120 volt-9.8 amp-1/2HP well pump soft starter. Every time the > well pump starts the SW4024 groans and the lights flicker. > > > > There are a lot of units that claim to soft start a ½ HP, but the reality > is > that they claim ½ HP but are limited to 3.3 amp+/- output. I asked how > this > is and was met with the usual, “gee gosh I am not sure.” I have one in > hand > now from ABB that is guilty of this claim. > > > > Some units claim to meet the spec but then you must limit the wire length > to > 30 meters. The well is 150’ from the house & 120 ft deep so a 270’ wire > run > with what the well guy threw in 18 years ago. VFW cable [multi strand > cable] > is a partial answer but not down in the well. > > Somewhere down the road the inverter & the well pump will get replaced but > for now it is working. The newer 3PH wild AC drives are amazing on a > Radian > Inverter. You cannot even tell the well is pumping till it has been for a > while and the fans kick on. > > > > Suggestions & directions that have proven reliable for you? > > Thanks. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From g.rochlin at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 20:16:21 2018 From: g.rochlin at gmail.com (Gary Rochlin) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 17:16:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries Message-ID: <006801d3a20c$c3186720$49493560$@gmail.com> Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery. We are doing a repair on an older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge controllers. Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were called in. Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were made for lead acid batteries. I'm looking at finding the way to charge the iCel batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries. I think I'm making sense here. Blue Sky Energy g.rochlin at blue-sky-energy.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: iCel.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 92918 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 22:14:20 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:14:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: <006801d3a20c$c3186720$49493560$@gmail.com> References: <006801d3a20c$c3186720$49493560$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Gary I have been told that below a certain voltage the LI-ion cells suffer a permanent death. I believe these batteries are small cells in parallel.strings and then series connected strings. to make the voltage.can you use a lab power supply to start the charge? I purchased one for about 60 to 90 $ that allows me to adjust the voltage and limit the current until the battery gets up to voltage IF it ever does.. On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 7:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote: > Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa > 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery. We are doing a repair on an > older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in > parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge > controllers. Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were > called in. Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will > not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were > made for lead acid batteries. I’m looking at finding the way to charge the > iCel batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming > from the batteries. I think I’m making sense here. > > > > *Blue Sky Energy * > > g.rochlin@ blue-sky-energy.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 22:25:03 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:25:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 HP well pump soft start at 120 VAC In-Reply-To: References: <003c01d3a1e5$24af5750$6e0e05f0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Dana my 1/2 HP 240 volt pump draws about < 2 amps, which is maybe 3.3 amps if it is 120 volts. I wonder if the high volt drop is leaving your pump in locked rotor for a long time, in which case a soft start will not help. Perhaps a buck-boost transformer (about 150 watts) boosting 16% would get the pump started faster? Do the wire size and length for calculating volt drop. then use a 3.3 amp soft start. On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:24 PM, wrote: > Hi Dana, > We have been using Grundfos SQ-O 1/2 hp, 5 GPM (or they have a 10 GPM > model) soft start pumps for years, with great outcomes. We have sold 60 > or so over the years with no returns. > > Daryl > > > > > Hey all you solar wise guys, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am looking for a recommendation based on your experience, not just data > > sheets for a 120 volt-9.8 amp-1/2HP well pump soft starter. Every time > the > > well pump starts the SW4024 groans and the lights flicker. > > > > > > > > There are a lot of units that claim to soft start a ½ HP, but the reality > > is > > that they claim ½ HP but are limited to 3.3 amp+/- output. I asked how > > this > > is and was met with the usual, “gee gosh I am not sure.” I have one in > > hand > > now from ABB that is guilty of this claim. > > > > > > > > Some units claim to meet the spec but then you must limit the wire length > > to > > 30 meters. The well is 150’ from the house & 120 ft deep so a 270’ wire > > run > > with what the well guy threw in 18 years ago. VFW cable [multi strand > > cable] > > is a partial answer but not down in the well. > > > > Somewhere down the road the inverter & the well pump will get replaced > but > > for now it is working. The newer 3PH wild AC drives are amazing on a > > Radian > > Inverter. You cannot even tell the well is pumping till it has been for a > > while and the fans kick on. > > > > > > > > Suggestions & directions that have proven reliable for you? > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > > > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > > > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > > > > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 22:56:17 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:56:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Auger for ground mount In-Reply-To: References: <4137734F-7E4E-41BC-A262-5D2C4EBEDFE6@netstep.net> Message-ID: The last job I used a mini excavator with auger drive head and put in ground screws worked great only trouble was getting plumb, On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 11:13 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > They require you contact a certified installer. That's not happening here. > > On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 1:04 PM, Larry Brown > wrote: > >> We have been using Techno Metal Posts Helical Piers with much success for >> many years >> Larry >> >> Larry Brown >> Sun Mountain >> 845-657-8096 <(845)%20657-8096> >> Sunmountain at netstep.net >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Feb 9, 2018, at 11:48 AM, Chris Schaefer >> wrote: >> >> While I've been using the Zilla platform with an auger attachment for a >> mini excavator with good luck. With that said I'm looking at Nuance Energy >> and their Osprey mount which requires a hammer drill. Anyone tried this yet? >> >> Christopher >> >> On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >>> Chris >>> Azk around for a fence contractor, they generally have what you need >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Feb 9, 2018 5:05 AM, "Chris Mason" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm taking on construction of a ground mount system of about 30KW. My >>>> previous experience has entailed using a utility truck mounted auger for >>>> the holes but that's expensive. The soil type here is fairly soft, not >>>> rock. There's no contractor available with a skid steer mounted auger. I >>>> need at least four inch holes, three foot deep. Siz inch would be better. >>>> What are the options? Any novel ideas? >>>> We have a service truck with a 2 ton hydraulic crane, anything I can >>>> mount to that? I don't mind fabricating brackets and mounts, welding parts >>>> to it. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Chris Mason >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>>> Solar Design Engineer >>>> Generac Generators Industrial technician >>>> >>>> www.cometsolar.com >>>> 264.235.5670 <(264)%20235-5670> >>>> 869.662.5670 <(869)%20662-5670> >>>> Skype: netconcepts >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 <(585)%20229-2083> or Cell 585-748-1870 >> <(585)%20748-1870> * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > Chris Mason > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Design Engineer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > www.cometsolar.com > 264.235.5670 <(264)%20235-5670> > 869.662.5670 <(869)%20662-5670> > Skype: netconcepts > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 01:47:47 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2018 20:47:47 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 HP well pump soft start at 120 VAC Message-ID: WrenchesI think its in the inverter or battery but somewhere before it leaves the inverter flickering lights indicates the inverter is seeing the issue up close, a 4 k inverter is 33 amps AC but Over 166 from the 24 volt batteries if the load if half that with lights and inverter is strugling need to look at the battery voltage including cable drop. I have seen this quite a few times over the years.Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Darryl Thayer Date: 2/9/18 5:25 PM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 HP well pump soft start at 120 VAC Dana my 1/2 HP 240 volt pump draws about < 2 amps, which is maybe 3.3 amps if it is 120 volts.  I wonder if the high volt drop is leaving your pump in locked rotor for a long time, in which case a soft start will not help.  Perhaps a buck-boost transformer  (about 150 watts) boosting 16% would get the pump started faster?  Do the wire size and length for calculating volt drop.  then use a 3.3 amp soft start.        On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:24 PM, wrote: Hi Dana,    We have been using Grundfos SQ-O 1/2 hp, 5 GPM (or they have a 10 GPM model) soft start pumps for years, with great outcomes. We have sold 60 or so over the years with no returns. Daryl > Hey all you solar wise guys, > > > > I am looking for a recommendation based on your experience, not just data > sheets for a 120 volt-9.8 amp-1/2HP well pump soft starter. Every time the > well pump starts the SW4024 groans and the lights flicker. > > > > There are a lot of units that claim to soft start a ½ HP, but the reality > is > that they claim ½ HP but are limited to 3.3 amp+/- output. I asked how > this > is and was met with the usual, “gee gosh I am not sure.” I have one in > hand > now from ABB that is guilty of this claim. > > > > Some units claim to meet the spec but then you must limit the wire length > to > 30 meters. The well is 150’ from the house & 120 ft deep so a 270’ wire > run > with what the well guy threw in 18 years ago. VFW cable [multi strand > cable] > is a partial answer but not down in the well. > > Somewhere down the road the inverter & the well pump will get replaced but > for now it is working. The newer 3PH wild AC drives are amazing on a > Radian > Inverter. You cannot even tell the well is pumping till it has been for a > while and the fans kick on. > > > > Suggestions & directions that have proven reliable for you? > > Thanks. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.com > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136                       www.solarwork.biz > > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Feb 10 03:37:53 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 01:37:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: <006801d3a20c$c3186720$49493560$@gmail.com> References: <006801d3a20c$c3186720$49493560$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to send the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is reached. More specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 60 or 72 Vnom depending on array. Let the other controller remain in normal operation. Send the unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up; then the other controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is reconnected. Better if the unregulated array is the smaller of the two, I would suspect. What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these Li-I, as I have no experience with restoring them. Daryl may well be right about being unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the batteries may need an operational BMS to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for thought. Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote: > > Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa > 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery.  We are doing a repair on > an older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired > in parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar > Charge controllers.  Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat > before we were called in. Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the > charge controller will not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V > since at the time they were made for lead acid batteries.  I’m looking > at finding the way to charge the iCel  batteries or goose the charge > controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries.  I think > I’m making sense here. > > *Blue Sky Energy * > > g.rochlin@ blue-sky-energy.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 08:28:05 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 09:28:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Auger for ground mount In-Reply-To: References: <4137734F-7E4E-41BC-A262-5D2C4EBEDFE6@netstep.net> Message-ID: I don't have that option, there isn't one available. I've been advised a two person commercial grade gas driven auger will do it. On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 11:56 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > The last job I used a mini excavator with auger drive head and put in > ground screws worked great only trouble was getting plumb, > > On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 11:13 AM, Chris Mason > wrote: > >> They require you contact a certified installer. That's not happening here. >> >> On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 1:04 PM, Larry Brown >> wrote: >> >>> We have been using Techno Metal Posts Helical Piers with much success >>> for many years >>> Larry >>> >>> Larry Brown >>> Sun Mountain >>> 845-657-8096 <(845)%20657-8096> >>> Sunmountain at netstep.net >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Feb 9, 2018, at 11:48 AM, Chris Schaefer >>> wrote: >>> >>> While I've been using the Zilla platform with an auger attachment for a >>> mini excavator with good luck. With that said I'm looking at Nuance Energy >>> and their Osprey mount which requires a hammer drill. Anyone tried this yet? >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Jerry Shafer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Chris >>>> Azk around for a fence contractor, they generally have what you need >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> On Feb 9, 2018 5:05 AM, "Chris Mason" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm taking on construction of a ground mount system of about 30KW. My >>>>> previous experience has entailed using a utility truck mounted auger for >>>>> the holes but that's expensive. The soil type here is fairly soft, not >>>>> rock. There's no contractor available with a skid steer mounted auger. I >>>>> need at least four inch holes, three foot deep. Siz inch would be better. >>>>> What are the options? Any novel ideas? >>>>> We have a service truck with a 2 ton hydraulic crane, anything I can >>>>> mount to that? I don't mind fabricating brackets and mounts, welding parts >>>>> to it. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Chris Mason >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>>>> Solar Design Engineer >>>>> Generac Generators Industrial technician >>>>> >>>>> www.cometsolar.com >>>>> 264.235.5670 <(264)%20235-5670> >>>>> 869.662.5670 <(869)%20662-5670> >>>>> Skype: netconcepts >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>>>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> >>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 <(585)%20229-2083> or Cell 585-748-1870 >>> <(585)%20748-1870> * >>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >>> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> * >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Design Engineer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> www.cometsolar.com >> 264.235.5670 <(264)%20235-5670> >> 869.662.5670 <(869)%20662-5670> >> Skype: netconcepts >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 09:20:07 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 09:20:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <006801d3a20c$c3186720$49493560$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Gary, I keep 24v and 48 v IOTA chargers with jumper cables attached for those times when systems are dead. Just a minute or so plugged into my Honda 2000I or generator on bypass gets everything lit up and running. Just did one yesterday. Got Kohler running but Mate 3 and inverter would not turn on. John B Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 10, 2018, at 3:37 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to send the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is reached. More specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 60 or 72 Vnom depending on array. Let the other controller remain in normal operation. Send the unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up; then the other controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is reconnected. Better if the unregulated array is the smaller of the two, I would suspect. > What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these Li-I, as I have no experience with restoring them. Daryl may well be right about being unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the batteries may need an operational BMS to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for thought. > > Allan > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > >> On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote: >> Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery. We are doing a repair on an older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge controllers. Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were called in. Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were made for lead acid batteries. I’m looking at finding the way to charge the iCel batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries. I think I’m making sense here. >> >> Blue Sky Energy >> >> g.rochlin at blue-sky-energy.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 09:43:00 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 06:43:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 HP well pump soft start at 120 VAC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If its an old pump, you don’t say then all sorts of bad things are possible as parts wear out, all that. And it could also be your inverter which is probably getting pretty old as well. I’m starting to see the old SW’s fail and have all sorts of weird problems. my 2 cents. jay > On Feb 9, 2018, at 10:47 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > > Wrenches > I think its in the inverter or battery but somewhere before it leaves the inverter flickering lights indicates the inverter is seeing the issue up close, a 4 k inverter is 33 amps AC but Over 166 from the 24 volt batteries if the load if half that with lights and inverter is strugling need to look at the battery voltage including cable drop. I have seen this quite a few times over the years. > Jerry > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Darryl Thayer > > Date: 2/9/18 5:25 PM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 1/2 HP well pump soft start at 120 VAC > > Dana my 1/2 HP 240 volt pump draws about < 2 amps, which is maybe 3.3 amps if it is 120 volts. I wonder if the high volt drop is leaving your pump in locked rotor for a long time, in which case a soft start will not help. Perhaps a buck-boost transformer (about 150 watts) boosting 16% would get the pump started faster? Do the wire size and length for calculating volt drop. then use a 3.3 amp soft start. > > On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:24 PM, > wrote: > Hi Dana, > We have been using Grundfos SQ-O 1/2 hp, 5 GPM (or they have a 10 GPM > model) soft start pumps for years, with great outcomes. We have sold 60 > or so over the years with no returns. > > Daryl > > > > > Hey all you solar wise guys, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am looking for a recommendation based on your experience, not just data > > sheets for a 120 volt-9.8 amp-1/2HP well pump soft starter. Every time the > > well pump starts the SW4024 groans and the lights flicker. > > > > > > > > There are a lot of units that claim to soft start a ½ HP, but the reality > > is > > that they claim ½ HP but are limited to 3.3 amp+/- output. I asked how > > this > > is and was met with the usual, “gee gosh I am not sure.” I have one in > > hand > > now from ABB that is guilty of this claim. > > > > > > > > Some units claim to meet the spec but then you must limit the wire length > > to > > 30 meters. The well is 150’ from the house & 120 ft deep so a 270’ wire > > run > > with what the well guy threw in 18 years ago. VFW cable [multi strand > > cable] > > is a partial answer but not down in the well. > > > > Somewhere down the road the inverter & the well pump will get replaced but > > for now it is working. The newer 3PH wild AC drives are amazing on a > > Radian > > Inverter. You cannot even tell the well is pumping till it has been for a > > while and the fans kick on. > > > > > > > > Suggestions & directions that have proven reliable for you? > > > > Thanks. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Sat Feb 10 12:20:27 2018 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 09:20:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <006801d3a20c$c3186720$49493560$@gmail.com> Message-ID: That's probably what I would try also... but be really careful with Li, there may be an issue with the BMS already, doing this could cause thermal runaway... I would probably do so away from any structures, and I would be using an thermal camera to monitor for hot spots. I've done this with Li Po RC Batteries and a 12volt regulated power supply... I don't know how they will react to direct array voltage. On Feb 10, 2018 12:38 AM, "Sindelar Solar" wrote: > Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to > send the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is > reached. More specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 60 > or 72 Vnom depending on array. Let the other controller remain in normal > operation. Send the unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up; > then the other controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is > reconnected. Better if the unregulated array is the smaller of the two, I > would suspect. > > What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA > lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the > system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these Li-I, > as I have no experience with restoring them. Daryl may well be right about > being unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the batteries may need > an operational BMS to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for > thought. > > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <(505)%20780-2738> cell* > On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote: > > Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa > 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery. We are doing a repair on an > older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in > parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge > controllers. Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were > called in. Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will > not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were > made for lead acid batteries. I’m looking at finding the way to charge the > iCel batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming > from the batteries. I think I’m making sense here. > > *Blue Sky Energy * > > g.rochlin@ blue-sky-energy.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Feb 10 13:24:21 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 11:24:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <006801d3a20c$c3186720$49493560$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Allan has a good approach as long as you are there to monitor it.  The wiring is already there, you just have jump the array positive to the controller output.  ( a little double lugging never hurt anyone....?!!.) Even higher voltage arrays with MPPT can be used this way.  They will just put out close to their short circuit current, as the batteries will pull the array voltage way down on the IV curve. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/10/18 1:37 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller > to send the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is > reached. More specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming > 48, 60 or 72 Vnom depending on array. Let the other controller remain > in normal operation. Send the unregulated array to bring initial > battery voltage up; then the other controller takes over and the one > that was bypassed now is reconnected. Better if the unregulated array > is the smaller of the two, I would suspect. > > What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA > lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of > the system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with > these Li-I, as I have no experience with restoring them. Daryl may > well be right about being unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also > the batteries may need an operational BMS to take a charge. So this is > perhaps just food for thought. > > Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote: >> >> Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa >> 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery.  We are doing a repair on >> an older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries >> wired in parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 >> Solar Charge controllers.  Via a surge from SCE system shut down and >> sat before we were called in.  Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the >> charge controller will not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V >> since at the time they were made for lead acid batteries.  I’m >> looking at finding the way to charge the iCel  batteries or goose the >> charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries.  I >> think I’m making sense here. >> >> *Blue Sky Energy * >> >> g.rochlin@ blue-sky-energy.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From truscitti at taitem.com Sat Feb 10 15:15:44 2018 From: truscitti at taitem.com (Tom Ruscitti) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 15:15:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries (Steve Higgins) Message-ID: <90979cd3-a631-bb0a-efa6-b9266b9b5132@taitem.com> Some of my non-solar consulting involves test engineering for lithium ion materials development. I'm no expert but I do get to work with folks developing and testing cells and sit in on industry training and conferences now and then. I would discourage trying the jump start described here without direct guidance from the cell / battery manufacturer and a properly operating BMS. Li-ion batteries can be much less tolerant to over-charge and over-discharge than the lead acid we're used to working with in the solar business. Li-ion batteries require a strictly enforced minimum cutoff voltage. For example, the discharge cutoff for one recent client's battery is spec'd at 2.5V per cell. There can be damage to the anode If voltage falls below that. Also, if you try the jump-start on compromised packs with no BMS, different cells will charge at different rates due to differing internal resistance (one function of BMS is cell balancing). Over-charging can result in permanent capacity loss and also electrode damage. Depending on the chemistry this sort of damage can increase the risk of thermal events. I've heard that some BMS will prevent recharging if the minimum cell voltage limit has been busted, but no first hand experience myself. If you do a web search on "lithium ion damage over discharge" you'll see plenty of discussion. I tried to find specs on the iCel system but didn't find anything useful. be careful, Tom -- Tom Ruscitti Senior Engineer Taitem Engineering, PC 110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Mobile: (607) 220-7022 www.taitem.com From marco at pvthawaii.com Sat Feb 10 15:23:50 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 10:23:50 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] experience with the Tesla Powerwall Message-ID: *Aloha Wrenches,* *I thought I'd share my own experiences with the Powerwall as my company is now launching a program to add PW to existing NEM systems since the vast majority of them do not have storage which means that if the grid goes down, so does their PV system. (With the exception of the SMA SB line and their Secure Power Supply.)* *And no, I'm not a shill or toadie for Tesla.* *marco * *I wanted to walk my own talk. Before we launched adding Powerwall to existing Net Energy Metered solar electric systems, I wanted to make sure that what was promised on paper would work in the real world. I added Powerwall to my NEM system last year and have been monitoring and testing it during normal grid-on and grid outage modes. And I’m very pleased to report that Powerwall has performed flawlessly and as expected.* *When used in a NEM system, Powerwall is programmed to be in “Backup” mode. When utility power is on, Powerwall stands ready in a full state of charge for any power outage. During normal grid-on conditions, my Powerall takes about .6 kilowatt-hours every other day to stay fully charged. Over the course of the month, this Powerwall’s electricity consumption comes to about 9 kWhs or about $3/month at the current HELCO R rate.* *I have turned the utility power off to my home on a number of occasions in order to experience how Powerwall would perform in a simulated grid outage. When the grid goes down, my house effectively becomes a self-generating micro-grid. That is, my photovoltaic system (solar modules and inverters) and Powerwall (battery storage and integrated inverter) form a power grid with energy being created and stored and then consumed by my electric loads.* *Several things I noted from my simulated grid outages:* *· I purposefully overloaded Powerwall by turning on my electric dryer and electric oven at the same time. As expected, since the maximum output of Powerwall is 5 kilowatts, it shutdown. Meaning that all the power in my house went off. Within seconds, Powerwall reset itself and the power came back on, with the dryer and oven having shut down after the power went off. If power does not come back on after your Powerwall trips off, you will need to turn off those high-power loads and reset Powerwall by turning its black on-off switch, located on the right side of the unit, from on to off and then on again. The important takeaway: during a utility outage, you will need to be careful as far as operating heavy electric loads, especially 240 volt appliances both from the perspective of overloading your Powerwall and rapidly drawing down the battery capacity, especially at night.* *· The magic of frequency shifting. Without getting into too much techno-talk, this is the story of frequency shifting. Normal utility frequency is 60 hertz (Hz). PV inverters require the utility frequency to be at or near 60 Hz in order to operate. During a grid outage, Powerwall effectively establishes grid quality power (120/240 volts at 60 Hz), allowing a micro grid to operate with solar providing power to your house loads (during daylight hours) and charge Powerwall as needed. During the day with the loads being met by your PV system and Powerwall being at or near full state of charge (97-100 percent), Powerwall will shift the frequency from 60 to 66 Hz in order to turn off the PV inverter(s). That is, the PV inverter(s) see the frequency out of spec and shut down as they’re expected and required to do. Why? Because with Powerwall at or near full and the house loads being met, there’s nowhere for any additional solar generation to go. Powerwall will wait for its the state of charge to drop below 96-97 percent before shifting the frequency back to 60 Hz which allows the PV system to restart and generate solar power again. This frequency shifting can take place repeatedly over the course of the day depending on load demands, solar potential and Powerwall state of charge and is perfectly normal and does not damage the PV inverters.* *· **66 Hz and home appliances: when Powerwall is at 66 Hz, some of your house loads may be affected. What I and other Powerwall owners have noticed, while not a comprehensive list, can include: electronic clocks running fast, motors sounding different (microwave, washing machine, pumps), uninterruptible power sources (UPS) not charging and going into back-up power mode, appliances having a computer behaving unusually.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Feb 10 17:00:11 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 14:00:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] experience with the Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82ca90477322a2a39c75060dc749d2a4.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Tesla also promises an offgrid version soon that will be DC coupled. The price is not bad for 13 KWH right now. The system is 50 vdc which to me is usable as it stands. All of the 400vdc batteries are not conceived right in my humble opinion! Not to mention for safety in my home! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > *Aloha Wrenches,* > > > *I thought I'd share my own experiences with the Powerwall as my company > is > now launching a program to add PW to existing NEM systems since the vast > majority of them do not have storage which means that if the grid goes > down, so does their PV system. (With the exception of the SMA SB line and > their Secure Power Supply.)* > > > *And no, I'm not a shill or toadie for Tesla.* > > > *marco * > > *I wanted to walk my own talk. Before we launched adding Powerwall to > existing Net Energy Metered solar electric systems, I wanted to make sure > that what was promised on paper would work in the real world. I added > Powerwall to my NEM system last year and have been monitoring and testing > it during normal grid-on and grid outage modes. And I’m very pleased to > report that Powerwall has performed flawlessly and as expected.* > > > > *When used in a NEM system, Powerwall is programmed to be in “Backup” > mode. When utility power is on, Powerwall stands ready in a full state of > charge for any power outage. During normal grid-on conditions, my > Powerall > takes about .6 kilowatt-hours every other day to stay fully charged. Over > the course of the month, this Powerwall’s electricity consumption comes > to > about 9 kWhs or about $3/month at the current HELCO R rate.* > > > > *I have turned the utility power off to my home on a number of occasions > in > order to experience how Powerwall would perform in a simulated grid > outage. When the grid goes down, my house effectively becomes a > self-generating micro-grid. That is, my photovoltaic system (solar > modules > and inverters) and Powerwall (battery storage and integrated inverter) > form > a power grid with energy being created and stored and then consumed by my > electric loads.* > > > > *Several things I noted from my simulated grid outages:* > > *· I purposefully overloaded Powerwall by turning on my electric > dryer and electric oven at the same time. As expected, since the maximum > output of Powerwall is 5 kilowatts, it shutdown. Meaning that all the > power in my house went off. Within seconds, Powerwall reset itself and > the > power came back on, with the dryer and oven having shut down after the > power went off. If power does not come back on after your Powerwall trips > off, you will need to turn off those high-power loads and reset Powerwall > by turning its black on-off switch, located on the right side of the unit, > from on to off and then on again. The important takeaway: during a > utility > outage, you will need to be careful as far as operating heavy electric > loads, especially 240 volt appliances both from the perspective of > overloading your Powerwall and rapidly drawing down the battery capacity, > especially at night.* > > *· The magic of frequency shifting. Without getting into too > much > techno-talk, this is the story of frequency shifting. Normal utility > frequency is 60 hertz (Hz). PV inverters require the utility frequency to > be at or near 60 Hz in order to operate. During a grid outage, Powerwall > effectively establishes grid quality power (120/240 volts at 60 Hz), > allowing a micro grid to operate with solar providing power to your house > loads (during daylight hours) and charge Powerwall as needed. During the > day with the loads being met by your PV system and Powerwall being at or > near full state of charge (97-100 percent), Powerwall will shift the > frequency from 60 to 66 Hz in order to turn off the PV inverter(s). That > is, the PV inverter(s) see the frequency out of spec and shut down as > they’re expected and required to do. Why? Because with Powerwall at or > near full and the house loads being met, there’s nowhere for any > additional > solar generation to go. Powerwall will wait for its the state of charge > to > drop below 96-97 percent before shifting the frequency back to 60 Hz which > allows the PV system to restart and generate solar power again. This > frequency shifting can take place repeatedly over the course of the day > depending on load demands, solar potential and Powerwall state of charge > and is perfectly normal and does not damage the PV inverters.* > > *· **66 Hz and home appliances: when Powerwall is at 66 Hz, some > of > your house loads may be affected. What I and other Powerwall owners have > noticed, while not a comprehensive list, can include: electronic clocks > running fast, motors sounding different (microwave, washing machine, > pumps), uninterruptible power sources (UPS) not charging and going into > back-up power mode, appliances having a computer behaving unusually.* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 19:03:09 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 18:03:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <006801d3a20c$c3186720$49493560$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Is there not a concern that if the batteries are showing such low voltage that they will not accept current, and the voltage will rise to module voltage and put array voltage on the output of the charge controller? On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Ray wrote: > Allan has a good approach as long as you are there to monitor it. The > wiring is already there, you just have jump the array positive to the > controller output. ( a little double lugging never hurt anyone....?!!.) > > Even higher voltage arrays with MPPT can be used this way. They will just > put out close to their short circuit current, as the batteries will pull > the array voltage way down on the IV curve. > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > On 2/10/18 1:37 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to > send the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is > reached. More specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 60 > or 72 Vnom depending on array. Let the other controller remain in normal > operation. Send the unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up; > then the other controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is > reconnected. Better if the unregulated array is the smaller of the two, I > would suspect. > > What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA > lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the > system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these Li-I, > as I have no experience with restoring them. Daryl may well be right about > being unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the batteries may need > an operational BMS to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for > thought. > > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 <(505)%20780-2738> cell* > On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote: > > Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa > 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery. We are doing a repair on an > older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in > parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge > controllers. Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were > called in. Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will > not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were > made for lead acid batteries. I’m looking at finding the way to charge the > iCel batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming > from the batteries. I think I’m making sense here. > > *Blue Sky Energy * > > g.rochlin@ blue-sky-energy.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Feb 10 19:40:01 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 17:40:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <006801d3a20c$c3186720$49493560$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <15eb08a7-2ebd-89d3-8d69-b1e24d659371@solarray.com> That's why Allan and I only recommend this if a knowledgeable tech is there to monitor it.  It should only take a few minutes to either see the batteries are just not going to wake up, or for regular charging to take over.   This is basically CPR for the batteries.  You don't ever do it normally, and you stop as soon as: A) nothing is happening, or B) the battery voltage rises enough for the charge controller to start doing its job again. Ray On 2/10/18 5:03 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > Is there not a concern that if the batteries are showing such low > voltage that they will not accept current, and the voltage will rise > to module voltage and put array voltage on the output of the charge > controller? > > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Ray > wrote: > > Allan has a good approach as long as you are there to monitor it.  > The wiring is already there, you just have jump the array positive > to the controller output.  ( a little double lugging never hurt > anyone....?!!.) > > Even higher voltage arrays with MPPT can be used this way.  They > will just put out close to their short circuit current, as the > batteries will pull the array voltage way down on the IV curve. > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > > On 2/10/18 1:37 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote: >> >> Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the >> controller to send the array straight to the batteries until >> threshold voltage is reached. More specifically, bypass one of >> the controllers; assuming 48, 60 or 72 Vnom depending on array. >> Let the other controller remain in normal operation. Send the >> unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up; then the >> other controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is >> reconnected. Better if the unregulated array is the smaller of >> the two, I would suspect. >> >> What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely >> VRLA lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken >> out of the system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at >> all with these Li-I, as I have no experience with restoring them. >> Daryl may well be right about being unrestorable below a >> threshold voltage; also the batteries may need an operational BMS >> to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for thought. >> >> Allan >> >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> >> On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote: >>> >>> Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older >>> circa 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery.  We are doing a >>> repair on an older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel >>> batteries wired in parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex >>> Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge controllers.  Via a surge from >>> SCE system shut down and sat before we were called in.  >>> Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will >>> not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time >>> they were made for lead acid batteries.  I’m looking at finding >>> the way to charge the iCel batteries or goose the charge >>> controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries.  I >>> think I’m making sense here. >>> >>> *Blue Sky Energy * >>> >>> g.rochlin@ blue-sky-energy.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 08:10:24 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 06:10:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GS battery use? In-Reply-To: <627637a5e984458d38fe9c8cc52a7307.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <627637a5e984458d38fe9c8cc52a7307.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, We recently installed 12,000 Ahr of this GS battery at some cell tower sites. If the cycle life on the specs matches real life then this will be an excellent battery technology. The high-temperature operation characteristics look very good as well. A couple of things I'll say about the battery and the install; these seem to be a very well thought out battery system. I prefer this system to large monoblock batteries because they come as a 2V cell that is manageable for 2 guys into a very remote 4WD site that we often find ourselves. Lifting equipment is not required. The steel shelves are the most difficult part of the system to handle. They come with a cell level monitoring system, that can be networked connected. I haven't been able to see what info is available from that. I also like the built in breaker that is designed to bolt onto the shelf chassis. They are also a very "safe" battery in the fact that there is rubber insulation sleeve that you can slip on the intercell bussing, another plastic clip that snaps over the bussing as well as the lexan shield that stands off of the terminals. If you do specify these batteries, be sure to add plenty of labor time for the installation process. It took a 2 man team about 3 days to install 4 stacks + monitoring. I guess we will see how they hold up to real life operation... On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > I have 2 systems on my hill here that have the Trojan Smart carbon and the > regular Trojan. They both are flooded 2V 1100 AH batteries and I see, and > my clients see no difference. The both are about 6 years old. They both > have the ridiculously stupid 3 ports for each 2V to water. I did not spec > this battery and wanted Surrette but..... > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > Hadn't seen the spec sheet of the GS battery... thanks. > > > > It's a Carbon battery with a Carbon additive to the negative plate. > > Generally and this of course depends on the manufacturer when you add > > carbon to the neg anode (plate) it increases the cycle life, and charge > > acceptance of the battery. It also makes it more resistive to hardened > > sulfation situations. > > > > The drawback, at least from what Rolls has found is when you do this you > > also increase the self discharge rate of the battery, they don't show > this > > on their spec sheet... > > > > Rolls has been working on a carbon based battery for some time now, at > > least longer than I've been there... Eng, says they are still working the > > kinks out and finishing testing. We typically don't beta test product > on > > customers. The draw back on that is we can be behind the new product > > release curve! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins â‹… Technical Services Manager > > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > <#UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > > destroy this message and all copies. > > ------------------------------ > > > > On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Daniel Tittmann > > wrote: > > > >> forgot to include the link to the GS batteries. > >> > >> http://www.gsbattery.com/PDFs/SLR1000-2.pdf > >> > >> Thank you Steve for the information on the construction of the batteries > >> and how that affects cycle life. > >> Cheers- > >> Daniel > >> > >> > >> Daniel Tittmann > >> CTO > >> Greenwired > >> www.greenwired.com > >> daniel at greenwired.com > >> 707-923-2001 Ext. 500 (office) > >> 707-206-5088 (Cell) > >> > >> On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 10:49 AM, Daniel Tittmann > > >> wrote: > >> > >> > I am reaching out to the group to see if there is any experience with > >> GS > >> > batteries. Their cycle life graph is better than I have seen in any > >> VRLA > >> > battery I have seen (see comparison below). I wanted to know if > >> anyone > >> on > >> > here has used them and if so have you experienced the cycle life that > >> they > >> > are reporting. I am waiting for a reply from the manufacturer for > >> more > >> > info as well. > >> > > >> > [image: Inline image 2] > >> > > >> > as comparison: > >> > Rolls gel cell cycle life is more classic to what we see in most > >> batteries > >> > http://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/batteries/ > S2-1070GEL.pdf > >> > [image: Inline image 3] > >> > > >> > or Full river DC400-6 > >> > http://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/batteries/DC400-6 > >> > [image: Inline image 1] > >> > What am i missing or how do they do this? > >> > thanks > >> > Daniel > >> > > >> > Daniel Tittmann > >> > CTO > >> > Greenwired > >> > www.greenwired.com > >> > daniel at greenwired.com > >> > 707-923-2001 Ext. 500 <(707)%20923-2001> (office) > >> > 707-206-5088 <(707)%20206-5088> (Cell) > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches > . > >> org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Feb 13 10:36:46 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 07:36:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] experience with the Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Marco, Thanks for sharing, it is good to hear details from an installer who is living with a Powerwall. We starting selling the Powerwall 2 in 2017 and have worked up a large pipeline. We have about 20 installed so far, but are still waiting on utility permission to operate which is taking a long time. We have spent a good deal of time commissioning and testing each system. For the most part, our experience has been good although the commissioning software and internet connectivity features have been buggy. Hopefully those are issues that will be ironed out by Tesla. Otherwise, we've had the systems correctly operate in on-grid and off-grid modes with both Solaredge and SunPower Equinox AC coupled systems. We installed conventional lead acid battery backup systems for over 10 years and I can confidently say that Tesla's Powerwall and Gateway setup is truly market-disruptive. The design flexibility of the Gateway setup, the small size, minimal labor to install, and performance blow other systems out of the water. I hope that other manufacturers are able to catch up with this type of design. Best, August *August Goers* Luminalt Energy Corporation o: 415.641.4000 www.luminalt.com On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > > > *Aloha Wrenches,* > > > *I thought I'd share my own experiences with the Powerwall as my company > is now launching a program to add PW to existing NEM systems since the vast > majority of them do not have storage which means that if the grid goes > down, so does their PV system. (With the exception of the SMA SB line and > their Secure Power Supply.)* > > > *And no, I'm not a shill or toadie for Tesla.* > > > *marco * > > *I wanted to walk my own talk. Before we launched adding Powerwall to > existing Net Energy Metered solar electric systems, I wanted to make sure > that what was promised on paper would work in the real world. I added > Powerwall to my NEM system last year and have been monitoring and testing > it during normal grid-on and grid outage modes. And I’m very pleased to > report that Powerwall has performed flawlessly and as expected.* > > > > *When used in a NEM system, Powerwall is programmed to be in “Backup” > mode. When utility power is on, Powerwall stands ready in a full state of > charge for any power outage. During normal grid-on conditions, my Powerall > takes about .6 kilowatt-hours every other day to stay fully charged. Over > the course of the month, this Powerwall’s electricity consumption comes to > about 9 kWhs or about $3/month at the current HELCO R rate.* > > > > *I have turned the utility power off to my home on a number of occasions > in order to experience how Powerwall would perform in a simulated grid > outage. When the grid goes down, my house effectively becomes a > self-generating micro-grid. That is, my photovoltaic system (solar modules > and inverters) and Powerwall (battery storage and integrated inverter) form > a power grid with energy being created and stored and then consumed by my > electric loads.* > > > > *Several things I noted from my simulated grid outages:* > > *· I purposefully overloaded Powerwall by turning on my electric > dryer and electric oven at the same time. As expected, since the maximum > output of Powerwall is 5 kilowatts, it shutdown. Meaning that all the > power in my house went off. Within seconds, Powerwall reset itself and the > power came back on, with the dryer and oven having shut down after the > power went off. If power does not come back on after your Powerwall trips > off, you will need to turn off those high-power loads and reset Powerwall > by turning its black on-off switch, located on the right side of the unit, > from on to off and then on again. The important takeaway: during a utility > outage, you will need to be careful as far as operating heavy electric > loads, especially 240 volt appliances both from the perspective of > overloading your Powerwall and rapidly drawing down the battery capacity, > especially at night.* > > *· The magic of frequency shifting. Without getting into too much > techno-talk, this is the story of frequency shifting. Normal utility > frequency is 60 hertz (Hz). PV inverters require the utility frequency to > be at or near 60 Hz in order to operate. During a grid outage, Powerwall > effectively establishes grid quality power (120/240 volts at 60 Hz), > allowing a micro grid to operate with solar providing power to your house > loads (during daylight hours) and charge Powerwall as needed. During the > day with the loads being met by your PV system and Powerwall being at or > near full state of charge (97-100 percent), Powerwall will shift the > frequency from 60 to 66 Hz in order to turn off the PV inverter(s). That > is, the PV inverter(s) see the frequency out of spec and shut down as > they’re expected and required to do. Why? Because with Powerwall at or > near full and the house loads being met, there’s nowhere for any additional > solar generation to go. Powerwall will wait for its the state of charge to > drop below 96-97 percent before shifting the frequency back to 60 Hz which > allows the PV system to restart and generate solar power again. This > frequency shifting can take place repeatedly over the course of the day > depending on load demands, solar potential and Powerwall state of charge > and is perfectly normal and does not damage the PV inverters.* > > *· **66 Hz and home appliances: when Powerwall is at 66 Hz, some > of your house loads may be affected. What I and other Powerwall owners > have noticed, while not a comprehensive list, can include: electronic > clocks running fast, motors sounding different (microwave, washing machine, > pumps), uninterruptible power sources (UPS) not charging and going into > back-up power mode, appliances having a computer behaving unusually.* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Tue Feb 13 11:33:43 2018 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 11:33:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] experience with the Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82efc5e604ae1a62f26ea73a538dbd98.squirrel@mail.myottmail.com> I would like to add my experience with Tesla so far. We applied to be an installer in Maine more than a year ago. Beside getting an initial email stating that they received our application, we have not heard a word since. I have one client with a SolarEdge 7600 StorEdge who put a deposit down in March of 2017, with a prediction in his acceptance letter of an April 2017 installation. Last week he asked for his deposit back. He has gotten the run around from the company for a year. I have not heard a word from them in my quest to be a Tesla Powerwall installer. Granted, this is in Maine, and we are not a high density state, but it still would be professional for them to rely to experienced people who want to install their product. Again, as a qualifier, this is only my experience, but it is frustrating. Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certified PV Penobscot Solar Design www.penobscotsolar.com Island Solar www.islandsolarbahamas.com > Marco, > > Thanks for sharing, it is good to hear details from an installer who is > living with a Powerwall. We starting selling the Powerwall 2 in 2017 and > have worked up a large pipeline. We have about 20 installed so far, but > are > still waiting on utility permission to operate which is taking a long > time. > We have spent a good deal of time commissioning and testing each system. > For the most part, our experience has been good although the commissioning > software and internet connectivity features have been buggy. Hopefully > those are issues that will be ironed out by Tesla. Otherwise, we've had > the > systems correctly operate in on-grid and off-grid modes with both > Solaredge > and SunPower Equinox AC coupled systems. > > We installed conventional lead acid battery backup systems for over 10 > years and I can confidently say that Tesla's Powerwall and Gateway setup > is truly market-disruptive. The design flexibility of the Gateway setup, > the small size, minimal labor to install, and performance blow other > systems out of the water. I hope that other manufacturers are able to > catch > up with this type of design. > > Best, > > August > > *August Goers* > > Luminalt Energy Corporation > > o: 415.641.4000 > > www.luminalt.com > > > > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > >> >> >> *Aloha Wrenches,* >> >> >> *I thought I'd share my own experiences with the Powerwall as my company >> is now launching a program to add PW to existing NEM systems since the >> vast >> majority of them do not have storage which means that if the grid goes >> down, so does their PV system. (With the exception of the SMA SB line >> and >> their Secure Power Supply.)* >> >> >> *And no, I'm not a shill or toadie for Tesla.* >> >> >> *marco * >> >> *I wanted to walk my own talk. Before we launched adding Powerwall to >> existing Net Energy Metered solar electric systems, I wanted to make >> sure >> that what was promised on paper would work in the real world. I added >> Powerwall to my NEM system last year and have been monitoring and >> testing >> it during normal grid-on and grid outage modes. And I’m very pleased >> to >> report that Powerwall has performed flawlessly and as expected.* >> >> >> >> *When used in a NEM system, Powerwall is programmed to be in >> “Backup” >> mode. When utility power is on, Powerwall stands ready in a full state >> of >> charge for any power outage. During normal grid-on conditions, my >> Powerall >> takes about .6 kilowatt-hours every other day to stay fully charged. >> Over >> the course of the month, this Powerwall’s electricity consumption >> comes to >> about 9 kWhs or about $3/month at the current HELCO R rate.* >> >> >> >> *I have turned the utility power off to my home on a number of occasions >> in order to experience how Powerwall would perform in a simulated grid >> outage. When the grid goes down, my house effectively becomes a >> self-generating micro-grid. That is, my photovoltaic system (solar >> modules >> and inverters) and Powerwall (battery storage and integrated inverter) >> form >> a power grid with energy being created and stored and then consumed by >> my >> electric loads.* >> >> >> >> *Several things I noted from my simulated grid outages:* >> >> *· I purposefully overloaded Powerwall by turning on my >> electric >> dryer and electric oven at the same time. As expected, since the >> maximum >> output of Powerwall is 5 kilowatts, it shutdown. Meaning that all the >> power in my house went off. Within seconds, Powerwall reset itself and >> the >> power came back on, with the dryer and oven having shut down after the >> power went off. If power does not come back on after your Powerwall >> trips >> off, you will need to turn off those high-power loads and reset >> Powerwall >> by turning its black on-off switch, located on the right side of the >> unit, >> from on to off and then on again. The important takeaway: during a >> utility >> outage, you will need to be careful as far as operating heavy electric >> loads, especially 240 volt appliances both from the perspective of >> overloading your Powerwall and rapidly drawing down the battery >> capacity, >> especially at night.* >> >> *· The magic of frequency shifting. Without getting into too >> much >> techno-talk, this is the story of frequency shifting. Normal utility >> frequency is 60 hertz (Hz). PV inverters require the utility frequency >> to >> be at or near 60 Hz in order to operate. During a grid outage, >> Powerwall >> effectively establishes grid quality power (120/240 volts at 60 Hz), >> allowing a micro grid to operate with solar providing power to your >> house >> loads (during daylight hours) and charge Powerwall as needed. During >> the >> day with the loads being met by your PV system and Powerwall being at or >> near full state of charge (97-100 percent), Powerwall will shift the >> frequency from 60 to 66 Hz in order to turn off the PV inverter(s). >> That >> is, the PV inverter(s) see the frequency out of spec and shut down as >> they’re expected and required to do. Why? Because with Powerwall at >> or >> near full and the house loads being met, there’s nowhere for any >> additional >> solar generation to go. Powerwall will wait for its the state of charge >> to >> drop below 96-97 percent before shifting the frequency back to 60 Hz >> which >> allows the PV system to restart and generate solar power again. This >> frequency shifting can take place repeatedly over the course of the day >> depending on load demands, solar potential and Powerwall state of charge >> and is perfectly normal and does not damage the PV inverters.* >> >> *· **66 Hz and home appliances: when Powerwall is at 66 Hz, >> some >> of your house loads may be affected. What I and other Powerwall owners >> have noticed, while not a comprehensive list, can include: electronic >> clocks running fast, motors sounding different (microwave, washing >> machine, >> pumps), uninterruptible power sources (UPS) not charging and going into >> back-up power mode, appliances having a computer behaving unusually.* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue Feb 13 11:35:23 2018 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 11:35:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] experience with the Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think that this may have come up before, but I do not remember there being a resolution: Do you guys have any tips on becoming a Tesla dealer? We have people ask about it all the time, but we have not been able to get Tesla to respond. We have installed Sonnen, which is also a great system, but the up front expense scares many people away. We are located in upstate NY which may have something to do with it. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Senior Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 www.taitem.com On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:36 AM, August Goers wrote: > Marco, > > Thanks for sharing, it is good to hear details from an installer who is > living with a Powerwall. We starting selling the Powerwall 2 in 2017 and > have worked up a large pipeline. We have about 20 installed so far, but are > still waiting on utility permission to operate which is taking a long time. > We have spent a good deal of time commissioning and testing each system. > For the most part, our experience has been good although the commissioning > software and internet connectivity features have been buggy. Hopefully > those are issues that will be ironed out by Tesla. Otherwise, we've had the > systems correctly operate in on-grid and off-grid modes with both Solaredge > and SunPower Equinox AC coupled systems. > > We installed conventional lead acid battery backup systems for over 10 > years and I can confidently say that Tesla's Powerwall and Gateway setup > is truly market-disruptive. The design flexibility of the Gateway setup, > the small size, minimal labor to install, and performance blow other > systems out of the water. I hope that other manufacturers are able to catch > up with this type of design. > > Best, > > August > > *August Goers* > > Luminalt Energy Corporation > > o: 415.641.4000 <(415)%20641-4000> > > www.luminalt.com > > > > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > >> >> >> *Aloha Wrenches,* >> >> >> *I thought I'd share my own experiences with the Powerwall as my company >> is now launching a program to add PW to existing NEM systems since the vast >> majority of them do not have storage which means that if the grid goes >> down, so does their PV system. (With the exception of the SMA SB line and >> their Secure Power Supply.)* >> >> >> *And no, I'm not a shill or toadie for Tesla.* >> >> >> *marco * >> >> *I wanted to walk my own talk. Before we launched adding Powerwall to >> existing Net Energy Metered solar electric systems, I wanted to make sure >> that what was promised on paper would work in the real world. I added >> Powerwall to my NEM system last year and have been monitoring and testing >> it during normal grid-on and grid outage modes. And I’m very pleased to >> report that Powerwall has performed flawlessly and as expected.* >> >> >> >> *When used in a NEM system, Powerwall is programmed to be in “Backup” >> mode. When utility power is on, Powerwall stands ready in a full state of >> charge for any power outage. During normal grid-on conditions, my Powerall >> takes about .6 kilowatt-hours every other day to stay fully charged. Over >> the course of the month, this Powerwall’s electricity consumption comes to >> about 9 kWhs or about $3/month at the current HELCO R rate.* >> >> >> >> *I have turned the utility power off to my home on a number of occasions >> in order to experience how Powerwall would perform in a simulated grid >> outage. When the grid goes down, my house effectively becomes a >> self-generating micro-grid. That is, my photovoltaic system (solar modules >> and inverters) and Powerwall (battery storage and integrated inverter) form >> a power grid with energy being created and stored and then consumed by my >> electric loads.* >> >> >> >> *Several things I noted from my simulated grid outages:* >> >> *· I purposefully overloaded Powerwall by turning on my electric >> dryer and electric oven at the same time. As expected, since the maximum >> output of Powerwall is 5 kilowatts, it shutdown. Meaning that all the >> power in my house went off. Within seconds, Powerwall reset itself and the >> power came back on, with the dryer and oven having shut down after the >> power went off. If power does not come back on after your Powerwall trips >> off, you will need to turn off those high-power loads and reset Powerwall >> by turning its black on-off switch, located on the right side of the unit, >> from on to off and then on again. The important takeaway: during a utility >> outage, you will need to be careful as far as operating heavy electric >> loads, especially 240 volt appliances both from the perspective of >> overloading your Powerwall and rapidly drawing down the battery capacity, >> especially at night.* >> >> *· The magic of frequency shifting. Without getting into too >> much techno-talk, this is the story of frequency shifting. Normal utility >> frequency is 60 hertz (Hz). PV inverters require the utility frequency to >> be at or near 60 Hz in order to operate. During a grid outage, Powerwall >> effectively establishes grid quality power (120/240 volts at 60 Hz), >> allowing a micro grid to operate with solar providing power to your house >> loads (during daylight hours) and charge Powerwall as needed. During the >> day with the loads being met by your PV system and Powerwall being at or >> near full state of charge (97-100 percent), Powerwall will shift the >> frequency from 60 to 66 Hz in order to turn off the PV inverter(s). That >> is, the PV inverter(s) see the frequency out of spec and shut down as >> they’re expected and required to do. Why? Because with Powerwall at or >> near full and the house loads being met, there’s nowhere for any additional >> solar generation to go. Powerwall will wait for its the state of charge to >> drop below 96-97 percent before shifting the frequency back to 60 Hz which >> allows the PV system to restart and generate solar power again. This >> frequency shifting can take place repeatedly over the course of the day >> depending on load demands, solar potential and Powerwall state of charge >> and is perfectly normal and does not damage the PV inverters.* >> >> *· **66 Hz and home appliances: when Powerwall is at 66 Hz, some >> of your house loads may be affected. What I and other Powerwall owners >> have noticed, while not a comprehensive list, can include: electronic >> clocks running fast, motors sounding different (microwave, washing machine, >> pumps), uninterruptible power sources (UPS) not charging and going into >> back-up power mode, appliances having a computer behaving unusually.* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Tue Feb 13 11:53:38 2018 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (Eric Stikes) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 08:53:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3-Phase SolarEdge L-L 215v Message-ID: I am troubleshooting a SolarEdge system with 9kW 3-Ph inverters. The system is working OK but production is a bit low. There may be other factors and I am looking into those too but I want to sort out this one issue: I am not too familiar with 3-phase and when I ask SolarEdge about best way to connect to a 3-Ph delta, they advise to stay away from the stinger and connect a 1-ph inverter to L1 & L2 only, and that has worked out fine. However, This system has a 3-ph inverter and L1 to L2 is reading about 215 volts from the utility. L1 to L3 is the same and L2 to L3 is also about 215 volts. Perhaps this is a 3-Ph WYE with just a higher than typical voltage coming from the utility t-former. My thought here is that maybe the 3-ph inverters are only providing 2/3 power back to the utility, or if there's some way to get to 240v L-L. The existing loads are serviced by both 2-pole and 3-pole breakers but everything is pretty much 1-phase I believe. I'm wondering if I should consider reconfiguring the system with 1-Ph inverters tied in to only 2 of the utility legs. I asked SolarEdge weeks ago but getting nothing from them. Any thoughts? Thanks! Eric Stikes SunHarvest Solar +1 (530) 798 - 3738 www.harvesthesun.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Feb 13 12:30:43 2018 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 10:30:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3-Phase SolarEdge L-L 215v In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds like you are working with a 120/208V system? What do you get from line to ground? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Feb 13, 2018, at 9:53 AM, Eric Stikes wrote: > > I am troubleshooting a SolarEdge system with 9kW 3-Ph inverters. The system is working OK but production is a bit low. There may be other factors and I am looking into those too but I want to sort out this one issue: I am not too familiar with 3-phase and when I ask SolarEdge about best way to connect to a 3-Ph delta, they advise to stay away from the stinger and connect a 1-ph inverter to L1 & L2 only, and that has worked out fine. However, This system has a 3-ph inverter and L1 to L2 is reading about 215 volts from the utility. L1 to L3 is the same and L2 to L3 is also about 215 volts. Perhaps this is a 3-Ph WYE with just a higher than typical voltage coming from the utility t-former. My thought here is that maybe the 3-ph inverters are only providing 2/3 power back to the utility, or if there's some way to get to 240v L-L. The existing loads are serviced by both 2-pole and 3-pole breakers but everything is pretty much 1-phase I believe. I'm wondering if I should consider reconfiguring the system with 1-Ph inverters tied in to only 2 of the utility legs. I asked SolarEdge weeks ago but getting nothing from them. Any thoughts? Thanks! > > Eric Stikes > SunHarvest Solar > +1 (530) 798 - 3738 > www.harvesthesun.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Feb 13 13:14:57 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 10:14:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] experience with the Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The AC powerwall has cooling, it is a liquid? Anyone know if the 5kw continuous and 7kw peak limits change with multiple units? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > I think that this may have come up before, but I do not remember there > being a resolution: > Do you guys have any tips on becoming a Tesla dealer? We have people ask > about it all the time, but we have not been able to get Tesla to respond. > We have installed Sonnen, which is also a great system, but the up front > expense scares many people away. We are located in upstate NY which may > have something to do with it. > > Cheers, > Dave > > > *--* > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > *Senior Engineer* > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 > Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 > www.taitem.com > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:36 AM, August Goers > wrote: > >> Marco, >> >> Thanks for sharing, it is good to hear details from an installer who is >> living with a Powerwall. We starting selling the Powerwall 2 in 2017 and >> have worked up a large pipeline. We have about 20 installed so far, but >> are >> still waiting on utility permission to operate which is taking a long >> time. >> We have spent a good deal of time commissioning and testing each system. >> For the most part, our experience has been good although the >> commissioning >> software and internet connectivity features have been buggy. Hopefully >> those are issues that will be ironed out by Tesla. Otherwise, we've had >> the >> systems correctly operate in on-grid and off-grid modes with both >> Solaredge >> and SunPower Equinox AC coupled systems. >> >> We installed conventional lead acid battery backup systems for over 10 >> years and I can confidently say that Tesla's Powerwall and Gateway setup >> is truly market-disruptive. The design flexibility of the Gateway setup, >> the small size, minimal labor to install, and performance blow other >> systems out of the water. I hope that other manufacturers are able to >> catch >> up with this type of design. >> >> Best, >> >> August >> >> *August Goers* >> >> Luminalt Energy Corporation >> >> o: 415.641.4000 <(415)%20641-4000> >> >> www.luminalt.com >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf >> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> *Aloha Wrenches,* >>> >>> >>> *I thought I'd share my own experiences with the Powerwall as my >>> company >>> is now launching a program to add PW to existing NEM systems since the >>> vast >>> majority of them do not have storage which means that if the grid goes >>> down, so does their PV system. (With the exception of the SMA SB line >>> and >>> their Secure Power Supply.)* >>> >>> >>> *And no, I'm not a shill or toadie for Tesla.* >>> >>> >>> *marco * >>> >>> *I wanted to walk my own talk. Before we launched adding Powerwall to >>> existing Net Energy Metered solar electric systems, I wanted to make >>> sure >>> that what was promised on paper would work in the real world. I added >>> Powerwall to my NEM system last year and have been monitoring and >>> testing >>> it during normal grid-on and grid outage modes. And I’m very pleased >>> to >>> report that Powerwall has performed flawlessly and as expected.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *When used in a NEM system, Powerwall is programmed to be in >>> “Backup” >>> mode. When utility power is on, Powerwall stands ready in a full state >>> of >>> charge for any power outage. During normal grid-on conditions, my >>> Powerall >>> takes about .6 kilowatt-hours every other day to stay fully charged. >>> Over >>> the course of the month, this Powerwall’s electricity consumption >>> comes to >>> about 9 kWhs or about $3/month at the current HELCO R rate.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *I have turned the utility power off to my home on a number of >>> occasions >>> in order to experience how Powerwall would perform in a simulated grid >>> outage. When the grid goes down, my house effectively becomes a >>> self-generating micro-grid. That is, my photovoltaic system (solar >>> modules >>> and inverters) and Powerwall (battery storage and integrated inverter) >>> form >>> a power grid with energy being created and stored and then consumed by >>> my >>> electric loads.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *Several things I noted from my simulated grid outages:* >>> >>> *· I purposefully overloaded Powerwall by turning on my >>> electric >>> dryer and electric oven at the same time. As expected, since the >>> maximum >>> output of Powerwall is 5 kilowatts, it shutdown. Meaning that all the >>> power in my house went off. Within seconds, Powerwall reset itself and >>> the >>> power came back on, with the dryer and oven having shut down after the >>> power went off. If power does not come back on after your Powerwall >>> trips >>> off, you will need to turn off those high-power loads and reset >>> Powerwall >>> by turning its black on-off switch, located on the right side of the >>> unit, >>> from on to off and then on again. The important takeaway: during a >>> utility >>> outage, you will need to be careful as far as operating heavy electric >>> loads, especially 240 volt appliances both from the perspective of >>> overloading your Powerwall and rapidly drawing down the battery >>> capacity, >>> especially at night.* >>> >>> *· The magic of frequency shifting. Without getting into too >>> much techno-talk, this is the story of frequency shifting. Normal >>> utility >>> frequency is 60 hertz (Hz). PV inverters require the utility frequency >>> to >>> be at or near 60 Hz in order to operate. During a grid outage, >>> Powerwall >>> effectively establishes grid quality power (120/240 volts at 60 Hz), >>> allowing a micro grid to operate with solar providing power to your >>> house >>> loads (during daylight hours) and charge Powerwall as needed. During >>> the >>> day with the loads being met by your PV system and Powerwall being at >>> or >>> near full state of charge (97-100 percent), Powerwall will shift the >>> frequency from 60 to 66 Hz in order to turn off the PV inverter(s). >>> That >>> is, the PV inverter(s) see the frequency out of spec and shut down as >>> they’re expected and required to do. Why? Because with Powerwall at >>> or >>> near full and the house loads being met, there’s nowhere for any >>> additional >>> solar generation to go. Powerwall will wait for its the state of >>> charge to >>> drop below 96-97 percent before shifting the frequency back to 60 Hz >>> which >>> allows the PV system to restart and generate solar power again. This >>> frequency shifting can take place repeatedly over the course of the day >>> depending on load demands, solar potential and Powerwall state of >>> charge >>> and is perfectly normal and does not damage the PV inverters.* >>> >>> *· **66 Hz and home appliances: when Powerwall is at 66 Hz, >>> some >>> of your house loads may be affected. What I and other Powerwall owners >>> have noticed, while not a comprehensive list, can include: electronic >>> clocks running fast, motors sounding different (microwave, washing >>> machine, >>> pumps), uninterruptible power sources (UPS) not charging and going into >>> back-up power mode, appliances having a computer behaving unusually.* >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From gary at arp-solar.com Tue Feb 13 13:21:01 2018 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 13:21:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] experience with the Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have also not gotten a response from Tesla. I have been encouraging all the powerwall calls I get to go with LG. On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > I think that this may have come up before, but I do not remember there > being a resolution: > Do you guys have any tips on becoming a Tesla dealer? We have people ask > about it all the time, but we have not been able to get Tesla to respond. > We have installed Sonnen, which is also a great system, but the up front > expense scares many people away. We are located in upstate NY which may > have something to do with it. > > Cheers, > Dave > > > *--* > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > *Senior Engineer* > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 > Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 > www.taitem.com > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:36 AM, August Goers > wrote: > >> Marco, >> >> Thanks for sharing, it is good to hear details from an installer who is >> living with a Powerwall. We starting selling the Powerwall 2 in 2017 and >> have worked up a large pipeline. We have about 20 installed so far, but are >> still waiting on utility permission to operate which is taking a long time. >> We have spent a good deal of time commissioning and testing each system. >> For the most part, our experience has been good although the commissioning >> software and internet connectivity features have been buggy. Hopefully >> those are issues that will be ironed out by Tesla. Otherwise, we've had the >> systems correctly operate in on-grid and off-grid modes with both Solaredge >> and SunPower Equinox AC coupled systems. >> >> We installed conventional lead acid battery backup systems for over 10 >> years and I can confidently say that Tesla's Powerwall and Gateway setup >> is truly market-disruptive. The design flexibility of the Gateway setup, >> the small size, minimal labor to install, and performance blow other >> systems out of the water. I hope that other manufacturers are able to catch >> up with this type of design. >> >> Best, >> >> August >> >> *August Goers* >> >> Luminalt Energy Corporation >> >> o: 415.641.4000 <(415)%20641-4000> >> >> www.luminalt.com >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> *Aloha Wrenches,* >>> >>> >>> *I thought I'd share my own experiences with the Powerwall as my company >>> is now launching a program to add PW to existing NEM systems since the vast >>> majority of them do not have storage which means that if the grid goes >>> down, so does their PV system. (With the exception of the SMA SB line and >>> their Secure Power Supply.)* >>> >>> >>> *And no, I'm not a shill or toadie for Tesla.* >>> >>> >>> *marco * >>> >>> *I wanted to walk my own talk. Before we launched adding Powerwall to >>> existing Net Energy Metered solar electric systems, I wanted to make sure >>> that what was promised on paper would work in the real world. I added >>> Powerwall to my NEM system last year and have been monitoring and testing >>> it during normal grid-on and grid outage modes. And I’m very pleased to >>> report that Powerwall has performed flawlessly and as expected.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *When used in a NEM system, Powerwall is programmed to be in “Backup” >>> mode. When utility power is on, Powerwall stands ready in a full state of >>> charge for any power outage. During normal grid-on conditions, my Powerall >>> takes about .6 kilowatt-hours every other day to stay fully charged. Over >>> the course of the month, this Powerwall’s electricity consumption comes to >>> about 9 kWhs or about $3/month at the current HELCO R rate.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *I have turned the utility power off to my home on a number of occasions >>> in order to experience how Powerwall would perform in a simulated grid >>> outage. When the grid goes down, my house effectively becomes a >>> self-generating micro-grid. That is, my photovoltaic system (solar modules >>> and inverters) and Powerwall (battery storage and integrated inverter) form >>> a power grid with energy being created and stored and then consumed by my >>> electric loads.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *Several things I noted from my simulated grid outages:* >>> >>> *· I purposefully overloaded Powerwall by turning on my electric >>> dryer and electric oven at the same time. As expected, since the maximum >>> output of Powerwall is 5 kilowatts, it shutdown. Meaning that all the >>> power in my house went off. Within seconds, Powerwall reset itself and the >>> power came back on, with the dryer and oven having shut down after the >>> power went off. If power does not come back on after your Powerwall trips >>> off, you will need to turn off those high-power loads and reset Powerwall >>> by turning its black on-off switch, located on the right side of the unit, >>> from on to off and then on again. The important takeaway: during a utility >>> outage, you will need to be careful as far as operating heavy electric >>> loads, especially 240 volt appliances both from the perspective of >>> overloading your Powerwall and rapidly drawing down the battery capacity, >>> especially at night.* >>> >>> *· The magic of frequency shifting. Without getting into too >>> much techno-talk, this is the story of frequency shifting. Normal utility >>> frequency is 60 hertz (Hz). PV inverters require the utility frequency to >>> be at or near 60 Hz in order to operate. During a grid outage, Powerwall >>> effectively establishes grid quality power (120/240 volts at 60 Hz), >>> allowing a micro grid to operate with solar providing power to your house >>> loads (during daylight hours) and charge Powerwall as needed. During the >>> day with the loads being met by your PV system and Powerwall being at or >>> near full state of charge (97-100 percent), Powerwall will shift the >>> frequency from 60 to 66 Hz in order to turn off the PV inverter(s). That >>> is, the PV inverter(s) see the frequency out of spec and shut down as >>> they’re expected and required to do. Why? Because with Powerwall at or >>> near full and the house loads being met, there’s nowhere for any additional >>> solar generation to go. Powerwall will wait for its the state of charge to >>> drop below 96-97 percent before shifting the frequency back to 60 Hz which >>> allows the PV system to restart and generate solar power again. This >>> frequency shifting can take place repeatedly over the course of the day >>> depending on load demands, solar potential and Powerwall state of charge >>> and is perfectly normal and does not damage the PV inverters.* >>> >>> *· **66 Hz and home appliances: when Powerwall is at 66 Hz, >>> some of your house loads may be affected. What I and other Powerwall >>> owners have noticed, while not a comprehensive list, can include: >>> electronic clocks running fast, motors sounding different (microwave, >>> washing machine, pumps), uninterruptible power sources (UPS) not charging >>> and going into back-up power mode, appliances having a computer behaving >>> unusually.* >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Gary Easton Appalachian Renewable Power Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” ~Ghandi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Feb 13 13:26:31 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 10:26:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] experience with the Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave - I keep hearing that Tesla is having a hard time keeping up with demand, so they may not be very motivated to add more dealers at this point. Just speculation. Yes, the max continuous and peak powers add as you add up as you add more powerwalls. Energy capacity adds too. Yes, Powerwall has liquid cooling - I don't know what type of fluid it is. According to the Powerwall newsletter I received, the Powerwall will heat itself with the liquid cooling/heating system to deal with sub-freezing conditions. This will use some energy. August On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:14 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > The AC powerwall has cooling, it is a liquid? Anyone know if the 5kw > continuous and 7kw peak limits change with multiple units? > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > I think that this may have come up before, but I do not remember there > > being a resolution: > > Do you guys have any tips on becoming a Tesla dealer? We have people ask > > about it all the time, but we have not been able to get Tesla to respond. > > We have installed Sonnen, which is also a great system, but the up front > > expense scares many people away. We are located in upstate NY which may > > have something to do with it. > > > > Cheers, > > Dave > > > > > > *--* > > > > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > > *Senior Engineer* > > > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > > 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 > > Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 > > www.taitem.com > > > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:36 AM, August Goers > > wrote: > > > >> Marco, > >> > >> Thanks for sharing, it is good to hear details from an installer who is > >> living with a Powerwall. We starting selling the Powerwall 2 in 2017 and > >> have worked up a large pipeline. We have about 20 installed so far, but > >> are > >> still waiting on utility permission to operate which is taking a long > >> time. > >> We have spent a good deal of time commissioning and testing each system. > >> For the most part, our experience has been good although the > >> commissioning > >> software and internet connectivity features have been buggy. Hopefully > >> those are issues that will be ironed out by Tesla. Otherwise, we've had > >> the > >> systems correctly operate in on-grid and off-grid modes with both > >> Solaredge > >> and SunPower Equinox AC coupled systems. > >> > >> We installed conventional lead acid battery backup systems for over 10 > >> years and I can confidently say that Tesla's Powerwall and Gateway setup > >> is truly market-disruptive. The design flexibility of the Gateway setup, > >> the small size, minimal labor to install, and performance blow other > >> systems out of the water. I hope that other manufacturers are able to > >> catch > >> up with this type of design. > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> August > >> > >> *August Goers* > >> > >> Luminalt Energy Corporation > >> > >> o: 415.641.4000 <(415)%20641-4000> > >> > >> www.luminalt.com > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > >> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> *Aloha Wrenches,* > >>> > >>> > >>> *I thought I'd share my own experiences with the Powerwall as my > >>> company > >>> is now launching a program to add PW to existing NEM systems since the > >>> vast > >>> majority of them do not have storage which means that if the grid goes > >>> down, so does their PV system. (With the exception of the SMA SB line > >>> and > >>> their Secure Power Supply.)* > >>> > >>> > >>> *And no, I'm not a shill or toadie for Tesla.* > >>> > >>> > >>> *marco * > >>> > >>> *I wanted to walk my own talk. Before we launched adding Powerwall to > >>> existing Net Energy Metered solar electric systems, I wanted to make > >>> sure > >>> that what was promised on paper would work in the real world. I added > >>> Powerwall to my NEM system last year and have been monitoring and > >>> testing > >>> it during normal grid-on and grid outage modes. And I’m very pleased > >>> to > >>> report that Powerwall has performed flawlessly and as expected.* > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> *When used in a NEM system, Powerwall is programmed to be in > >>> “Backup†> >>> mode. When utility power is on, Powerwall stands ready in a full state > >>> of > >>> charge for any power outage. During normal grid-on conditions, my > >>> Powerall > >>> takes about .6 kilowatt-hours every other day to stay fully charged. > >>> Over > >>> the course of the month, this Powerwall’s electricity consumption > >>> comes to > >>> about 9 kWhs or about $3/month at the current HELCO R rate.* > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> *I have turned the utility power off to my home on a number of > >>> occasions > >>> in order to experience how Powerwall would perform in a simulated grid > >>> outage. When the grid goes down, my house effectively becomes a > >>> self-generating micro-grid. That is, my photovoltaic system (solar > >>> modules > >>> and inverters) and Powerwall (battery storage and integrated inverter) > >>> form > >>> a power grid with energy being created and stored and then consumed by > >>> my > >>> electric loads.* > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> *Several things I noted from my simulated grid outages:* > >>> > >>> *· I purposefully overloaded Powerwall by turning on my > >>> electric > >>> dryer and electric oven at the same time. As expected, since the > >>> maximum > >>> output of Powerwall is 5 kilowatts, it shutdown. Meaning that all the > >>> power in my house went off. Within seconds, Powerwall reset itself and > >>> the > >>> power came back on, with the dryer and oven having shut down after the > >>> power went off. If power does not come back on after your Powerwall > >>> trips > >>> off, you will need to turn off those high-power loads and reset > >>> Powerwall > >>> by turning its black on-off switch, located on the right side of the > >>> unit, > >>> from on to off and then on again. The important takeaway: during a > >>> utility > >>> outage, you will need to be careful as far as operating heavy electric > >>> loads, especially 240 volt appliances both from the perspective of > >>> overloading your Powerwall and rapidly drawing down the battery > >>> capacity, > >>> especially at night.* > >>> > >>> *· The magic of frequency shifting. Without getting into too > >>> much techno-talk, this is the story of frequency shifting. Normal > >>> utility > >>> frequency is 60 hertz (Hz). PV inverters require the utility frequency > >>> to > >>> be at or near 60 Hz in order to operate. During a grid outage, > >>> Powerwall > >>> effectively establishes grid quality power (120/240 volts at 60 Hz), > >>> allowing a micro grid to operate with solar providing power to your > >>> house > >>> loads (during daylight hours) and charge Powerwall as needed. During > >>> the > >>> day with the loads being met by your PV system and Powerwall being at > >>> or > >>> near full state of charge (97-100 percent), Powerwall will shift the > >>> frequency from 60 to 66 Hz in order to turn off the PV inverter(s). > >>> That > >>> is, the PV inverter(s) see the frequency out of spec and shut down as > >>> they’re expected and required to do. Why? Because with Powerwall at > >>> or > >>> near full and the house loads being met, there’s nowhere for any > >>> additional > >>> solar generation to go. Powerwall will wait for its the state of > >>> charge to > >>> drop below 96-97 percent before shifting the frequency back to 60 Hz > >>> which > >>> allows the PV system to restart and generate solar power again. This > >>> frequency shifting can take place repeatedly over the course of the day > >>> depending on load demands, solar potential and Powerwall state of > >>> charge > >>> and is perfectly normal and does not damage the PV inverters.* > >>> > >>> *· **66 Hz and home appliances: when Powerwall is at 66 Hz, > >>> some > >>> of your house loads may be affected. What I and other Powerwall owners > >>> have noticed, while not a comprehensive list, can include: electronic > >>> clocks running fast, motors sounding different (microwave, washing > >>> machine, > >>> pumps), uninterruptible power sources (UPS) not charging and going into > >>> back-up power mode, appliances having a computer behaving unusually.* > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re > >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >>> > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >>> > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches > . > >> org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Feb 13 13:26:33 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 13:26:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] experience with the Tesla Powerwall Message-ID: <04s59ktf8oalgrk8l0seihhs.1518546123094@email.lge.com> An installer I have been working with here in southern VT has also repeatedly applied to become an installer with Tesla for powerwalls with no response.I cannot in good conscience recommend their products based on their history and unresponsiveness in our area. They may be great for Puerto Rico, and now Australia, but have currently rated a thumbs down here. We are happy with the sonnen product, delivery and support. GlennSent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typographical errors. ------ Original message------From: Dave TedeyanDate: Tue, Feb 13, 2018 11:35 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] experience with the Tesla Powerwall I think that this may have come up before, but I do not remember there being a resolution:Do you guys have any tips on becoming a Tesla dealer? We have people ask about it all the time, but we have not been able to get Tesla to respond. We have installed Sonnen, which is also a great system, but the up front expense scares many people away. We are located in upstate NY which may have something to do with it. Cheers,Dave -- Dave Tedeyan Senior Engineer Taitem Engineering, PC10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6www.taitem.com On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:36 AM, August Goers wrote: Marco, Thanks for sharing, it is good to hear details from an installer who is living with a Powerwall. We starting selling the Powerwall 2 in 2017 and have worked up a large pipeline. We have about 20 installed so far, but are still waiting on utility permission to operate which is taking a long time. We have spent a good deal of time commissioning and testing each system. For the most part, our experience has been good although the commissioning software and internet connectivity features have been buggy. Hopefully those are issues that will be ironed out by Tesla. Otherwise, we've had the systems correctly operate in on-grid and off-grid modes with both Solaredge and SunPower Equinox AC coupled systems.  We installed conventional lead acid battery backup systems for over 10 years and I can confidently say that Tesla's Powerwall and Gateway setup  is truly market-disruptive. The design flexibility of the Gateway setup, the small size, minimal labor to install, and performance blow other systems out of the water. I hope that other manufacturers are able to catch up with this type of design.  Best, August August GoersLuminalt Energy Corporationo: 415.641.4000 www.luminalt.com   On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: Aloha Wrenches, I thought I'd share my own experiences with the Powerwall as my company is now launching a program to add PW to existing NEM systems since the vast majority of them do not have storage which means that if the grid goes down, so does their PV system.  (With the exception of the SMA SB line and their Secure Power Supply.) And no, I'm not a shill or toadie for Tesla. marco I wanted to walk my own talk.  Before we launched adding Powerwall to existing Net Energy Metered solar electric systems, I wanted to make sure that what was promised on paper would work in the real world.  I added Powerwall to my NEM system last year and have been monitoring and testing it during normal grid-on and grid outage modes.  And I’m very pleased to report that Powerwall has performed flawlessly and as expected.   When used in a NEM system, Powerwall is programmed to be in “Backup” mode.  When utility power is on, Powerwall stands ready in a full state of charge for any power outage.  During normal grid-on conditions, my Powerall takes about .6 kilowatt-hours every other day to stay fully charged.  Over the course of the month, this Powerwall’s electricity consumption comes to about 9 kWhs or about $3/month at the current HELCO R rate.   I have turned the utility power off to my home on a number of occasions in order to experience how Powerwall would perform in a simulated grid outage.  When the grid goes down, my house effectively becomes a self-generating micro-grid.  That is, my photovoltaic system (solar modules and inverters) and Powerwall (battery storage and integrated inverter) form a power grid with energy being created and stored and then consumed by my electric loads.   Several things I noted from my simulated grid outages: ·         I purposefully overloaded Powerwall by turning on my electric dryer and electric oven at the same time.  As expected, since the maximum output of Powerwall is 5 kilowatts, it shutdown.  Meaning that all the power in my house went off.  Within seconds, Powerwall reset itself and the power came back on, with the dryer and oven having shut down after the power went off.  If power does not come back on after your Powerwall trips off, you will need to turn off those high-power loads and reset Powerwall by turning its black on-off switch, located on the right side of the unit, from on to off and then on again.  The important takeaway: during a utility outage, you will need to be careful as far as operating heavy electric loads, especially 240 volt appliances both from the perspective of overloading your Powerwall and rapidly drawing down the battery capacity, especially at night. ·         The magic of frequency shifting.  Without getting into too much techno-talk, this is the story of frequency shifting.  Normal utility frequency is 60 hertz (Hz).  PV inverters require the utility frequency to be at or near 60 Hz in order to operate.  During a grid outage, Powerwall effectively establishes grid quality power (120/240 volts at 60 Hz), allowing a micro grid to operate with solar providing power to your house loads (during daylight hours) and charge Powerwall as needed.  During the day with the loads being met by your PV system and Powerwall being at or near full state of charge (97-100 percent), Powerwall will shift the frequency from 60 to 66 Hz in order to turn off the PV inverter(s).  That is, the PV inverter(s) see the frequency out of spec and shut down as they’re expected and required to do.  Why? Because with Powerwall at or near full and the house loads being met, there’s nowhere for any additional solar generation to go.  Powerwall will wait for its the state of charge to drop below 96-97 percent before shifting the frequency back to 60 Hz which allows the PV system to restart and generate solar power again.   This frequency shifting can take place repeatedly over the course of the day depending on load demands, solar potential and Powerwall state of charge and is perfectly normal and does not damage the PV inverters. ·         66 Hz and home appliances: when Powerwall is at 66 Hz, some of your house loads may be affected.  What I and other Powerwall owners have noticed, while not a comprehensive list, can include: electronic clocks running fast, motors sounding different (microwave, washing machine, pumps), uninterruptible power sources (UPS) not charging and going into back-up power mode, appliances having a computer behaving unusually.  _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Feb 13 11:30:07 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 06:30:07 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Experience with the Tesla Powerwall Message-ID: Hey August. By utility I assume that you are talking about PG&E. What's the hang up? And are running the PWs in back-up power only mode or daily cycling mode? In either case, the addition of PW does not add to the generating capacity of the solar facility. marco On Tuesday, February 13, 2018, August Goers wrote: > Marco, > > Thanks for sharing, it is good to hear details from an installer who is > living with a Powerwall. We starting selling the Powerwall 2 in 2017 and > have worked up a large pipeline. We have about 20 installed so far, but are > still waiting on utility permission to operate which is taking a long time. > We have spent a good deal of time commissioning and testing each system. > For the most part, our experience has been good although the commissioning > software and internet connectivity features have been buggy. Hopefully > those are issues that will be ironed out by Tesla. Otherwise, we've had the > systems correctly operate in on-grid and off-grid modes with both Solaredge > and SunPower Equinox AC coupled systems. > > We installed conventional lead acid battery backup systems for over 10 > years and I can confidently say that Tesla's Powerwall and Gateway setup > is truly market-disruptive. The design flexibility of the Gateway setup, > the small size, minimal labor to install, and performance blow other > systems out of the water. I hope that other manufacturers are able to catch > up with this type of design. > > Best, > > August > > *August Goers* > > Luminalt Energy Corporation > > o: 415.641.4000 > > www.luminalt.com > > > > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > >> >> >> *Aloha Wrenches,* >> >> >> *I thought I'd share my own experiences with the Powerwall as my company >> is now launching a program to add PW to existing NEM systems since the vast >> majority of them do not have storage which means that if the grid goes >> down, so does their PV system. (With the exception of the SMA SB line and >> their Secure Power Supply.)* >> >> >> *And no, I'm not a shill or toadie for Tesla.* >> >> >> *marco * >> >> *I wanted to walk my own talk. Before we launched adding Powerwall to >> existing Net Energy Metered solar electric systems, I wanted to make sure >> that what was promised on paper would work in the real world. I added >> Powerwall to my NEM system last year and have been monitoring and testing >> it during normal grid-on and grid outage modes. And I’m very pleased to >> report that Powerwall has performed flawlessly and as expected.* >> >> >> >> *When used in a NEM system, Powerwall is programmed to be in “Backup” >> mode. When utility power is on, Powerwall stands ready in a full state of >> charge for any power outage. During normal grid-on conditions, my Powerall >> takes about .6 kilowatt-hours every other day to stay fully charged. Over >> the course of the month, this Powerwall’s electricity consumption comes to >> about 9 kWhs or about $3/month at the current HELCO R rate.* >> >> >> >> *I have turned the utility power off to my home on a number of occasions >> in order to experience how Powerwall would perform in a simulated grid >> outage. When the grid goes down, my house effectively becomes a >> self-generating micro-grid. That is, my photovoltaic system (solar modules >> and inverters) and Powerwall (battery storage and integrated inverter) form >> a power grid with energy being created and stored and then consumed by my >> electric loads.* >> >> >> >> *Several things I noted from my simulated grid outages:* >> >> *· I purposefully overloaded Powerwall by turning on my electric >> dryer and electric oven at the same time. As expected, since the maximum >> output of Powerwall is 5 kilowatts, it shutdown. Meaning that all the >> power in my house went off. Within seconds, Powerwall reset itself and the >> power came back on, with the dryer and oven having shut down after the >> power went off. If power does not come back on after your Powerwall trips >> off, you will need to turn off those high-power loads and reset Powerwall >> by turning its black on-off switch, located on the right side of the unit, >> from on to off and then on again. The important takeaway: during a utility >> outage, you will need to be careful as far as operating heavy electric >> loads, especially 240 volt appliances both from the perspective of >> overloading your Powerwall and rapidly drawing down the battery capacity, >> especially at night.* >> >> *· The magic of frequency shifting. Without getting into too >> much techno-talk, this is the story of frequency shifting. Normal utility >> frequency is 60 hertz (Hz). PV inverters require the utility frequency to >> be at or near 60 Hz in order to operate. During a grid outage, Powerwall >> effectively establishes grid quality power (120/240 volts at 60 Hz), >> allowing a micro grid to operate with solar providing power to your house >> loads (during daylight hours) and charge Powerwall as needed. During the >> day with the loads being met by your PV system and Powerwall being at or >> near full state of charge (97-100 percent), Powerwall will shift the >> frequency from 60 to 66 Hz in order to turn off the PV inverter(s). That >> is, the PV inverter(s) see the frequency out of spec and shut down as >> they’re expected and required to do. Why? Because with Powerwall at or >> near full and the house loads being met, there’s nowhere for any additional >> solar generation to go. Powerwall will wait for its the state of charge to >> drop below 96-97 percent before shifting the frequency back to 60 Hz which >> allows the PV system to restart and generate solar power again. This >> frequency shifting can take place repeatedly over the course of the day >> depending on load demands, solar potential and Powerwall state of charge >> and is perfectly normal and does not damage the PV inverters.* >> >> *· **66 Hz and home appliances: when Powerwall is at 66 Hz, some >> of your house loads may be affected. What I and other Powerwall owners >> have noticed, while not a comprehensive list, can include: electronic >> clocks running fast, motors sounding different (microwave, washing machine, >> pumps), uninterruptible power sources (UPS) not charging and going into >> back-up power mode, appliances having a computer behaving unusually.* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Feb 13 13:43:39 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 10:43:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Experience with the Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, PG&E. The Self Generation Incentive Program (SGIP) created a flood of applications and PG&E is having a hard time keeping up. Hopefully it will get easier. We are enabling self-consumption and backup modes. The Powerwall charges daily from the solar and then discharges to a owner-set minimum reserve capacity. August *August* Luminalt Energy Corporation o: 415.641.4000 www.luminalt.com On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 8:30 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Hey August. > > By utility I assume that you are talking about PG&E. > > What's the hang up? And are running the PWs in back-up power only mode or > daily cycling mode? > > In either case, the addition of PW does not add to the generating capacity > of the solar facility. > > marco > > On Tuesday, February 13, 2018, August Goers wrote: > >> Marco, >> >> Thanks for sharing, it is good to hear details from an installer who is >> living with a Powerwall. We starting selling the Powerwall 2 in 2017 and >> have worked up a large pipeline. We have about 20 installed so far, but are >> still waiting on utility permission to operate which is taking a long time. >> We have spent a good deal of time commissioning and testing each system. >> For the most part, our experience has been good although the commissioning >> software and internet connectivity features have been buggy. Hopefully >> those are issues that will be ironed out by Tesla. Otherwise, we've had the >> systems correctly operate in on-grid and off-grid modes with both Solaredge >> and SunPower Equinox AC coupled systems. >> >> We installed conventional lead acid battery backup systems for over 10 >> years and I can confidently say that Tesla's Powerwall and Gateway setup >> is truly market-disruptive. The design flexibility of the Gateway setup, >> the small size, minimal labor to install, and performance blow other >> systems out of the water. I hope that other manufacturers are able to catch >> up with this type of design. >> >> Best, >> >> August >> >> *August Goers* >> >> Luminalt Energy Corporation >> >> o: 415.641.4000 <(415)%20641-4000> >> >> www.luminalt.com >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> *Aloha Wrenches,* >>> >>> >>> *I thought I'd share my own experiences with the Powerwall as my company >>> is now launching a program to add PW to existing NEM systems since the vast >>> majority of them do not have storage which means that if the grid goes >>> down, so does their PV system. (With the exception of the SMA SB line and >>> their Secure Power Supply.)* >>> >>> >>> *And no, I'm not a shill or toadie for Tesla.* >>> >>> >>> *marco * >>> >>> *I wanted to walk my own talk. Before we launched adding Powerwall to >>> existing Net Energy Metered solar electric systems, I wanted to make sure >>> that what was promised on paper would work in the real world. I added >>> Powerwall to my NEM system last year and have been monitoring and testing >>> it during normal grid-on and grid outage modes. And I’m very pleased to >>> report that Powerwall has performed flawlessly and as expected.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *When used in a NEM system, Powerwall is programmed to be in “Backup” >>> mode. When utility power is on, Powerwall stands ready in a full state of >>> charge for any power outage. During normal grid-on conditions, my Powerall >>> takes about .6 kilowatt-hours every other day to stay fully charged. Over >>> the course of the month, this Powerwall’s electricity consumption comes to >>> about 9 kWhs or about $3/month at the current HELCO R rate.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *I have turned the utility power off to my home on a number of occasions >>> in order to experience how Powerwall would perform in a simulated grid >>> outage. When the grid goes down, my house effectively becomes a >>> self-generating micro-grid. That is, my photovoltaic system (solar modules >>> and inverters) and Powerwall (battery storage and integrated inverter) form >>> a power grid with energy being created and stored and then consumed by my >>> electric loads.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *Several things I noted from my simulated grid outages:* >>> >>> *· I purposefully overloaded Powerwall by turning on my electric >>> dryer and electric oven at the same time. As expected, since the maximum >>> output of Powerwall is 5 kilowatts, it shutdown. Meaning that all the >>> power in my house went off. Within seconds, Powerwall reset itself and the >>> power came back on, with the dryer and oven having shut down after the >>> power went off. If power does not come back on after your Powerwall trips >>> off, you will need to turn off those high-power loads and reset Powerwall >>> by turning its black on-off switch, located on the right side of the unit, >>> from on to off and then on again. The important takeaway: during a utility >>> outage, you will need to be careful as far as operating heavy electric >>> loads, especially 240 volt appliances both from the perspective of >>> overloading your Powerwall and rapidly drawing down the battery capacity, >>> especially at night.* >>> >>> *· The magic of frequency shifting. Without getting into too >>> much techno-talk, this is the story of frequency shifting. Normal utility >>> frequency is 60 hertz (Hz). PV inverters require the utility frequency to >>> be at or near 60 Hz in order to operate. During a grid outage, Powerwall >>> effectively establishes grid quality power (120/240 volts at 60 Hz), >>> allowing a micro grid to operate with solar providing power to your house >>> loads (during daylight hours) and charge Powerwall as needed. During the >>> day with the loads being met by your PV system and Powerwall being at or >>> near full state of charge (97-100 percent), Powerwall will shift the >>> frequency from 60 to 66 Hz in order to turn off the PV inverter(s). That >>> is, the PV inverter(s) see the frequency out of spec and shut down as >>> they’re expected and required to do. Why? Because with Powerwall at or >>> near full and the house loads being met, there’s nowhere for any additional >>> solar generation to go. Powerwall will wait for its the state of charge to >>> drop below 96-97 percent before shifting the frequency back to 60 Hz which >>> allows the PV system to restart and generate solar power again. This >>> frequency shifting can take place repeatedly over the course of the day >>> depending on load demands, solar potential and Powerwall state of charge >>> and is perfectly normal and does not damage the PV inverters.* >>> >>> *· **66 Hz and home appliances: when Powerwall is at 66 Hz, >>> some of your house loads may be affected. What I and other Powerwall >>> owners have noticed, while not a comprehensive list, can include: >>> electronic clocks running fast, motors sounding different (microwave, >>> washing machine, pumps), uninterruptible power sources (UPS) not charging >>> and going into back-up power mode, appliances having a computer behaving >>> unusually.* >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Feb 13 14:34:40 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 09:34:40 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Experience with the Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is there a financial benefit to the customer-generator to choose the self-powered mode, August? marco On Tuesday, February 13, 2018, August Goers wrote: > Yes, PG&E. The Self Generation Incentive Program (SGIP) created a flood of > applications and PG&E is having a hard time keeping up. Hopefully it will > get easier. > > We are enabling self-consumption and backup modes. The Powerwall charges > daily from the solar and then discharges to a owner-set minimum reserve > capacity. > > August > > *August* > > Luminalt Energy Corporation > > o: 415.641.4000 > > www.luminalt.com > > > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 8:30 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > >> Hey August. >> >> By utility I assume that you are talking about PG&E. >> >> What's the hang up? And are running the PWs in back-up power only mode >> or daily cycling mode? >> >> In either case, the addition of PW does not add to the generating >> capacity of the solar facility. >> >> marco >> >> On Tuesday, February 13, 2018, August Goers wrote: >> >>> Marco, >>> >>> Thanks for sharing, it is good to hear details from an installer who is >>> living with a Powerwall. We starting selling the Powerwall 2 in 2017 and >>> have worked up a large pipeline. We have about 20 installed so far, but are >>> still waiting on utility permission to operate which is taking a long time. >>> We have spent a good deal of time commissioning and testing each system. >>> For the most part, our experience has been good although the commissioning >>> software and internet connectivity features have been buggy. Hopefully >>> those are issues that will be ironed out by Tesla. Otherwise, we've had the >>> systems correctly operate in on-grid and off-grid modes with both Solaredge >>> and SunPower Equinox AC coupled systems. >>> >>> We installed conventional lead acid battery backup systems for over 10 >>> years and I can confidently say that Tesla's Powerwall and Gateway setup >>> is truly market-disruptive. The design flexibility of the Gateway setup, >>> the small size, minimal labor to install, and performance blow other >>> systems out of the water. I hope that other manufacturers are able to catch >>> up with this type of design. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> August >>> >>> *August Goers* >>> >>> Luminalt Energy Corporation >>> >>> o: 415.641.4000 <(415)%20641-4000> >>> >>> www.luminalt.com >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf >> > wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Aloha Wrenches,* >>>> >>>> >>>> *I thought I'd share my own experiences with the Powerwall as my >>>> company is now launching a program to add PW to existing NEM systems since >>>> the vast majority of them do not have storage which means that if the grid >>>> goes down, so does their PV system. (With the exception of the SMA SB line >>>> and their Secure Power Supply.)* >>>> >>>> >>>> *And no, I'm not a shill or toadie for Tesla.* >>>> >>>> >>>> *marco * >>>> >>>> *I wanted to walk my own talk. Before we launched adding Powerwall to >>>> existing Net Energy Metered solar electric systems, I wanted to make sure >>>> that what was promised on paper would work in the real world. I added >>>> Powerwall to my NEM system last year and have been monitoring and testing >>>> it during normal grid-on and grid outage modes. And I’m very pleased to >>>> report that Powerwall has performed flawlessly and as expected.* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *When used in a NEM system, Powerwall is programmed to be in “Backup” >>>> mode. When utility power is on, Powerwall stands ready in a full state of >>>> charge for any power outage. During normal grid-on conditions, my Powerall >>>> takes about .6 kilowatt-hours every other day to stay fully charged. Over >>>> the course of the month, this Powerwall’s electricity consumption comes to >>>> about 9 kWhs or about $3/month at the current HELCO R rate.* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *I have turned the utility power off to my home on a number of >>>> occasions in order to experience how Powerwall would perform in a simulated >>>> grid outage. When the grid goes down, my house effectively becomes a >>>> self-generating micro-grid. That is, my photovoltaic system (solar modules >>>> and inverters) and Powerwall (battery storage and integrated inverter) form >>>> a power grid with energy being created and stored and then consumed by my >>>> electric loads.* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Several things I noted from my simulated grid outages:* >>>> >>>> *· I purposefully overloaded Powerwall by turning on my >>>> electric dryer and electric oven at the same time. As expected, since the >>>> maximum output of Powerwall is 5 kilowatts, it shutdown. Meaning that all >>>> the power in my house went off. Within seconds, Powerwall reset itself and >>>> the power came back on, with the dryer and oven having shut down after the >>>> power went off. If power does not come back on after your Powerwall trips >>>> off, you will need to turn off those high-power loads and reset Powerwall >>>> by turning its black on-off switch, located on the right side of the unit, >>>> from on to off and then on again. The important takeaway: during a utility >>>> outage, you will need to be careful as far as operating heavy electric >>>> loads, especially 240 volt appliances both from the perspective of >>>> overloading your Powerwall and rapidly drawing down the battery capacity, >>>> especially at night.* >>>> >>>> *· The magic of frequency shifting. Without getting into too >>>> much techno-talk, this is the story of frequency shifting. Normal utility >>>> frequency is 60 hertz (Hz). PV inverters require the utility frequency to >>>> be at or near 60 Hz in order to operate. During a grid outage, Powerwall >>>> effectively establishes grid quality power (120/240 volts at 60 Hz), >>>> allowing a micro grid to operate with solar providing power to your house >>>> loads (during daylight hours) and charge Powerwall as needed. During the >>>> day with the loads being met by your PV system and Powerwall being at or >>>> near full state of charge (97-100 percent), Powerwall will shift the >>>> frequency from 60 to 66 Hz in order to turn off the PV inverter(s). That >>>> is, the PV inverter(s) see the frequency out of spec and shut down as >>>> they’re expected and required to do. Why? Because with Powerwall at or >>>> near full and the house loads being met, there’s nowhere for any additional >>>> solar generation to go. Powerwall will wait for its the state of charge to >>>> drop below 96-97 percent before shifting the frequency back to 60 Hz which >>>> allows the PV system to restart and generate solar power again. This >>>> frequency shifting can take place repeatedly over the course of the day >>>> depending on load demands, solar potential and Powerwall state of charge >>>> and is perfectly normal and does not damage the PV inverters.* >>>> >>>> *· **66 Hz and home appliances: when Powerwall is at 66 Hz, >>>> some of your house loads may be affected. What I and other Powerwall >>>> owners have noticed, while not a comprehensive list, can include: >>>> electronic clocks running fast, motors sounding different (microwave, >>>> washing machine, pumps), uninterruptible power sources (UPS) not charging >>>> and going into back-up power mode, appliances having a computer behaving >>>> unusually.* >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Feb 13 15:18:07 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 12:18:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Experience with the Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The solar self consumption mode is a requirement in order to qualify for the SGIP incentive for PV-paired systems. For residential systems, the storage system must discharge a minimum of 52 full cycles per year which equates to once per week on average. In addition, solar self consumption mode can save a little money by a) reducing the non-bypassable charges associated with NEM2 and b) potentially reduce some Time Of Use (TOU) peak rate energy consumption. It's a particularly good choice for folks who have electric vehicles on the EV rate where the peak rates go to 9:00 pm and part peak goes to 11:00 pm. Generally speaking, we're seeing TOU peak periods shift later and later in California. August On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Is there a financial benefit to the customer-generator to choose the > self-powered mode, August? > > marco > > On Tuesday, February 13, 2018, August Goers wrote: > >> Yes, PG&E. The Self Generation Incentive Program (SGIP) created a flood >> of applications and PG&E is having a hard time keeping up. Hopefully it >> will get easier. >> >> We are enabling self-consumption and backup modes. The Powerwall charges >> daily from the solar and then discharges to a owner-set minimum reserve >> capacity. >> >> August >> >> *August* >> >> Luminalt Energy Corporation >> >> o: 415.641.4000 <(415)%20641-4000> >> >> www.luminalt.com >> >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 8:30 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf >> wrote: >> >>> Hey August. >>> >>> By utility I assume that you are talking about PG&E. >>> >>> What's the hang up? And are running the PWs in back-up power only mode >>> or daily cycling mode? >>> >>> In either case, the addition of PW does not add to the generating >>> capacity of the solar facility. >>> >>> marco >>> >>> On Tuesday, February 13, 2018, August Goers wrote: >>> >>>> Marco, >>>> >>>> Thanks for sharing, it is good to hear details from an installer who is >>>> living with a Powerwall. We starting selling the Powerwall 2 in 2017 and >>>> have worked up a large pipeline. We have about 20 installed so far, but are >>>> still waiting on utility permission to operate which is taking a long time. >>>> We have spent a good deal of time commissioning and testing each system. >>>> For the most part, our experience has been good although the commissioning >>>> software and internet connectivity features have been buggy. Hopefully >>>> those are issues that will be ironed out by Tesla. Otherwise, we've had the >>>> systems correctly operate in on-grid and off-grid modes with both Solaredge >>>> and SunPower Equinox AC coupled systems. >>>> >>>> We installed conventional lead acid battery backup systems for over 10 >>>> years and I can confidently say that Tesla's Powerwall and Gateway setup >>>> is truly market-disruptive. The design flexibility of the Gateway setup, >>>> the small size, minimal labor to install, and performance blow other >>>> systems out of the water. I hope that other manufacturers are able to catch >>>> up with this type of design. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> August >>>> >>>> *August Goers* >>>> >>>> Luminalt Energy Corporation >>>> >>>> o: 415.641.4000 <(415)%20641-4000> >>>> >>>> www.luminalt.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf < >>>> marco at pvthawaii.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Aloha Wrenches,* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *I thought I'd share my own experiences with the Powerwall as my >>>>> company is now launching a program to add PW to existing NEM systems since >>>>> the vast majority of them do not have storage which means that if the grid >>>>> goes down, so does their PV system. (With the exception of the SMA SB line >>>>> and their Secure Power Supply.)* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *And no, I'm not a shill or toadie for Tesla.* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *marco * >>>>> >>>>> *I wanted to walk my own talk. Before we launched adding Powerwall to >>>>> existing Net Energy Metered solar electric systems, I wanted to make sure >>>>> that what was promised on paper would work in the real world. I added >>>>> Powerwall to my NEM system last year and have been monitoring and testing >>>>> it during normal grid-on and grid outage modes. And I’m very pleased to >>>>> report that Powerwall has performed flawlessly and as expected.* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *When used in a NEM system, Powerwall is programmed to be in “Backup” >>>>> mode. When utility power is on, Powerwall stands ready in a full state of >>>>> charge for any power outage. During normal grid-on conditions, my Powerall >>>>> takes about .6 kilowatt-hours every other day to stay fully charged. Over >>>>> the course of the month, this Powerwall’s electricity consumption comes to >>>>> about 9 kWhs or about $3/month at the current HELCO R rate.* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *I have turned the utility power off to my home on a number of >>>>> occasions in order to experience how Powerwall would perform in a simulated >>>>> grid outage. When the grid goes down, my house effectively becomes a >>>>> self-generating micro-grid. That is, my photovoltaic system (solar modules >>>>> and inverters) and Powerwall (battery storage and integrated inverter) form >>>>> a power grid with energy being created and stored and then consumed by my >>>>> electric loads.* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Several things I noted from my simulated grid outages:* >>>>> >>>>> *· I purposefully overloaded Powerwall by turning on my >>>>> electric dryer and electric oven at the same time. As expected, since the >>>>> maximum output of Powerwall is 5 kilowatts, it shutdown. Meaning that all >>>>> the power in my house went off. Within seconds, Powerwall reset itself and >>>>> the power came back on, with the dryer and oven having shut down after the >>>>> power went off. If power does not come back on after your Powerwall trips >>>>> off, you will need to turn off those high-power loads and reset Powerwall >>>>> by turning its black on-off switch, located on the right side of the unit, >>>>> from on to off and then on again. The important takeaway: during a utility >>>>> outage, you will need to be careful as far as operating heavy electric >>>>> loads, especially 240 volt appliances both from the perspective of >>>>> overloading your Powerwall and rapidly drawing down the battery capacity, >>>>> especially at night.* >>>>> >>>>> *· The magic of frequency shifting. Without getting into too >>>>> much techno-talk, this is the story of frequency shifting. Normal utility >>>>> frequency is 60 hertz (Hz). PV inverters require the utility frequency to >>>>> be at or near 60 Hz in order to operate. During a grid outage, Powerwall >>>>> effectively establishes grid quality power (120/240 volts at 60 Hz), >>>>> allowing a micro grid to operate with solar providing power to your house >>>>> loads (during daylight hours) and charge Powerwall as needed. During the >>>>> day with the loads being met by your PV system and Powerwall being at or >>>>> near full state of charge (97-100 percent), Powerwall will shift the >>>>> frequency from 60 to 66 Hz in order to turn off the PV inverter(s). That >>>>> is, the PV inverter(s) see the frequency out of spec and shut down as >>>>> they’re expected and required to do. Why? Because with Powerwall at or >>>>> near full and the house loads being met, there’s nowhere for any additional >>>>> solar generation to go. Powerwall will wait for its the state of charge to >>>>> drop below 96-97 percent before shifting the frequency back to 60 Hz which >>>>> allows the PV system to restart and generate solar power again. This >>>>> frequency shifting can take place repeatedly over the course of the day >>>>> depending on load demands, solar potential and Powerwall state of charge >>>>> and is perfectly normal and does not damage the PV inverters.* >>>>> >>>>> *· **66 Hz and home appliances: when Powerwall is at 66 Hz, >>>>> some of your house loads may be affected. What I and other Powerwall >>>>> owners have noticed, while not a comprehensive list, can include: >>>>> electronic clocks running fast, motors sounding different (microwave, >>>>> washing machine, pumps), uninterruptible power sources (UPS) not charging >>>>> and going into back-up power mode, appliances having a computer behaving >>>>> unusually.* >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>>>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 18:35:42 2018 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 18:35:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall and other Li Message-ID: Has anyone calculated a lifetime cost per stored and delivered kWh for any of these lithium battery systems? From the rough numbers I’ve come up with in the past it seems like daily cycling to avoid grid use would be a dead loss. The capital cost vs capacity and cycle life doesn’t add up. Also, I know mentioning this is out of line per list etiquette, but could people refrain from including 20 preceding messages in their posts? I tend to read this on my phone and my scrolling finger is getting shorter. Thanks! Hilton Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 19:57:52 2018 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (Joe Nelson) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 16:57:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3-Phase SolarEdge L-L 215v In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007301d3a52e$d96e75d0$8c4b6170$@gmail.com> To date, we have had the greatest success placing a secondary transformer in between the inverter and the PCC( as we have run into this on more than one occasion already). The inverter seems to operate best, and weather it’s WYE, DELTA or a wild-leg(stinger) you can specify exactly what you need to feed in/out to get the electrical characteristics you are looking for. Hammond(HPS Sentinel series) work very well, Dongan transformers have also worked very well for us so far. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 9:31 AM To: ericstikes at gmail.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 3-Phase SolarEdge L-L 215v Sounds like you are working with a 120/208V system? What do you get from line to ground? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 On Feb 13, 2018, at 9:53 AM, Eric Stikes > wrote: I am troubleshooting a SolarEdge system with 9kW 3-Ph inverters. The system is working OK but production is a bit low. There may be other factors and I am looking into those too but I want to sort out this one issue: I am not too familiar with 3-phase and when I ask SolarEdge about best way to connect to a 3-Ph delta, they advise to stay away from the stinger and connect a 1-ph inverter to L1 & L2 only, and that has worked out fine. However, This system has a 3-ph inverter and L1 to L2 is reading about 215 volts from the utility. L1 to L3 is the same and L2 to L3 is also about 215 volts. Perhaps this is a 3-Ph WYE with just a higher than typical voltage coming from the utility t-former. My thought here is that maybe the 3-ph inverters are only providing 2/3 power back to the utility, or if there's some way to get to 240v L-L. The existing loads are serviced by both 2-pole and 3-pole breakers but everything is pretty much 1-phase I believe. I'm wondering if I should consider reconfiguring the system with 1-Ph inverters tied in to only 2 of the utility legs. I asked SolarEdge weeks ago but getting nothing from them. Any thoughts? Thanks! Eric Stikes SunHarvest Solar +1 (530) 798 - 3738 www.harvesthesun.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikek at spiritsolar.net Thu Feb 15 09:58:54 2018 From: mikek at spiritsolar.net (Mike Kocsmiersky) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 09:58:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery monitoring Message-ID: <025c01d3a66d$8012acf0$803806d0$@net> I am going to be working with a group of high school students this summer who have very limited prior solar experience. We will be installing a small off grid PV system (1.9kW) and small wind turbine generator (400W to 1kW). I plan on using three Morningstar Trimetric controllers, one to control charge of the PV array to the battery bank, a second as a load control relay, and a third as a dump control. I can connect all the Morningstar controllers together on an RS485 bus and connect to the solar charge controller via an Ethernet link to the local area network. The Morningstar controllers will be monitored via a classroom computer, and they will be able to give me Ahrs in from the solar array, Ahrs to the load, Ahrs to the dump load, but not the Ahrs in from the wind turbine generator. My question is, how can I add monitoring of the wind turbine Ahrs that goes to the battery? I will need something that can get to the local area network. Wifi or direct broadcast may be difficult because I have to go through the electronics cabinet and two brick walls. The only thing I can think of is to add a Tri or Penta Metric from Bogart Engineering, which would duplicate the info the Morningstar controllers would give me, but could add the Wind Turbine Generator as well, but perhaps there is a better way. Thanks for your thoughts. Mike Kocsmiersky Spirit Solar 413 734-1456 (cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Feb 15 10:30:27 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 07:30:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall and other Li In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Hilton, We've done the math for our installed cost on the Powerwall 2. Certainly, it wouldn't make sense to purchase it just for energy savings alone with current California residential electricity tariffs. However, most folks are buying it primarily for backup purposes and then a little bit of utility savings is just icing on the cake or what storage folks are calling "stacked benefits." The SGIP for many of our clients is over $5k per Powerwall (now a little lower) and many clients are pairing with PV and taking the 30% Fed tax credit. All in all, it is a very good deal. August On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Hilton Dier wrote: > Has anyone calculated a lifetime cost per stored and delivered kWh for any > of these lithium battery systems? > > From the rough numbers I’ve come up with in the past it seems like daily > cycling to avoid grid use would be a dead loss. The capital cost vs > capacity and cycle life doesn’t add up. > > Also, I know mentioning this is out of line per list etiquette, but could > people refrain from including 20 preceding messages in their posts? I tend > to read this on my phone and my scrolling finger is getting shorter. Thanks! > > Hilton > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 10:48:36 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 08:48:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] experience with the Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: <04s59ktf8oalgrk8l0seihhs.1518546123094@email.lge.com> References: <04s59ktf8oalgrk8l0seihhs.1518546123094@email.lge.com> Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I just wanted to report that some electronics will fail and burn up during frequency shift. We have an off-grid Sunny Island system (60-62 Hz operating frequency) and we experienced sensitive electronics burning up during these events. Its been too long since this happened to tell you exactly what burned up. I think it was some HVAC controls. If its possible, I'd suggest a relay that opens up the grid-tie inverter as opposed to waiting until frequency shift is necessary. A well-specified relay can be highly reliable and not very expensive. Thanks On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 11:26 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > An installer I have been working with here in southern VT has also > repeatedly applied to become an installer with Tesla for powerwalls with no > response. > I cannot in good conscience recommend their products based on their > history and unresponsiveness in our area. > They may be great for Puerto Rico, and now Australia, but have currently > rated a thumbs down here. We are happy with the sonnen product, delivery > and support. > > *Glenn* > *Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typographical > errors.* > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Dave Tedeyan > *Date: *Tue, Feb 13, 2018 11:35 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] experience with the Tesla Powerwall > > I think that this may have come up before, but I do not remember there > being a resolution: > Do you guys have any tips on becoming a Tesla dealer? We have people ask > about it all the time, but we have not been able to get Tesla to respond. > We have installed Sonnen, which is also a great system, but the up front > expense scares many people away. We are located in upstate NY which may > have something to do with it. > > Cheers, > Dave > > > * --* > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > *Senior Engineer* > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 > Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 > www.taitem.com > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:36 AM, August Goers > wrote: > >> Marco, >> >> Thanks for sharing, it is good to hear details from an installer who is >> living with a Powerwall. We starting selling the Powerwall 2 in 2017 and >> have worked up a large pipeline. We have about 20 installed so far, but are >> still waiting on utility permission to operate which is taking a long time. >> We have spent a good deal of time commissioning and testing each system. >> For the most part, our experience has been good although the commissioning >> software and internet connectivity features have been buggy. Hopefully >> those are issues that will be ironed out by Tesla. Otherwise, we've had the >> systems correctly operate in on-grid and off-grid modes with both Sol >> aredge and SunPower Equinox AC coupled systems. >> >> We installed conventional lead acid battery backup systems for over 10 >> years and I can confidently say that Tesla's Powerwall and Gateway setup >> is truly market-disruptive. The design flexibility of the Gateway setup, >> the small size, minimal labor to install, and performance blow other >> systems out of the water. I hope that other manufacturers are able to catch >> up with this type of design. >> >> Best, >> >> August >> >> *August Goers* >> >> Luminalt Energy Corporation >> >> o: 415.641.4000 <(415)%20641-4000> >> >> www.luminalt.com >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> *Aloha Wrenches,* >>> >>> >>> *I thought I'd share my own experiences with the Powerwall as my company >>> is now launching a program to add PW to existing NEM systems since the vast >>> majority of them do not have storage which means that if the grid goes >>> down, so does their PV system. (With the exception of the SMA SB line and >>> their Secure Power Supply.)* >>> >>> >>> *And no, I'm not a shill or toadie for Tesla.* >>> >>> >>> *marco * >>> >>> *I wanted to walk my own talk. Before we launched adding Powerwall to >>> existing Net Energy Metered solar electric systems, I wanted to make sure >>> that what was promised on paper would work in the real world. I added >>> Powerwall to my NEM system last year and have been monitoring and testing >>> it during normal grid-on and grid outage modes. And I’m very pleased to >>> report that Powerwall has performed flawlessly and as expected.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *When used in a NEM system, Powerwall is programmed to be in “Backup” >>> mode. When utility power is on, Powerwall stands ready in a full state of >>> charge for any power outage. During normal grid-on conditions, my Powerall >>> takes about .6 kilowatt-hours every other day to stay fully charged. Over >>> the course of the month, this Powerwall’s electricity consumption comes to >>> about 9 kWhs or about $3/month at the current HELCO R rate.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *I have turned the utility power off to my home on a number of occasions >>> in order to experience how Powerwall would perform in a simulated grid >>> outage. When the grid goes down, my house effectively becomes a >>> self-generating micro-grid. That is, my photovoltaic system (solar modules >>> and inverters) and Powerwall (battery storage and integrated inverter) form >>> a power grid with energy being created and stored and then consumed by my >>> electric loads.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *Several things I noted from my simulated grid outages:* >>> >>> *· I purposefully overloaded Powerwall by turning on my electric >>> dryer and electric oven at the same time. As expected, since the maximum >>> output of Powerwall is 5 kilowatts, it shutdown. Meaning that all the >>> power in my house went off. Within seconds, Powerwall reset itself and the >>> power came back on, with the dryer and oven having shut down after the >>> power went off. If power does not come back on after your Powerwall trips >>> off, you will need to turn off those high-power loads and reset Powerwall >>> by turning its black on-off switch, located on the right side of the unit, >>> from on to off and then on again. The important takeaway: during a utility >>> outage, you will need to be careful as far as operating heavy electric >>> loads, especially 240 volt appliances both from the perspective of >>> overloading your Powerwall and rapidly drawing down the battery capacity, >>> especially at night.* >>> >>> *· The magic of frequency shifting. Without getting into too >>> much techno-talk, this is the story of frequency shifting. Normal utility >>> frequency is 60 hertz (Hz). PV inverters require the utility frequency to >>> be at or near 60 Hz in order to operate. During a grid outage, Powerwall >>> effectively establishes grid quality power (120/240 volts at 60 Hz), >>> allowing a micro grid to operate with solar providing power to your house >>> loads (during daylight hours) and charge Powerwall as needed. During the >>> day with the loads being met by your PV system and Powerwall being at or >>> near full state of charge (97-100 percent), Powerwall will shift the >>> frequency from 60 to 66 Hz in order to turn off the PV inverter(s). That >>> is, the PV inverter(s) see the frequency out of spec and shut down as >>> they’re expected and required to do. Why? Because with Powerwall at or >>> near full and the house loads being met, there’s nowhere for any additional >>> solar generation to go. Powerwall will wait for its the state of charge to >>> drop below 96-97 percent before shifting the frequency back to 60 Hz which >>> allows the PV system to restart and generate solar power again. This >>> frequency shifting can take place repeatedly over the course of the day >>> depending on load demands, solar potential and Powerwall state of charge >>> and is perfectly normal and does not damage the PV inverters.* >>> >>> *· **66 Hz and home appliances: when Powerwall is at 66 Hz, >>> some of your house loads may be affected. What I and other Powerwall >>> owners have noticed, while not a comprehensive list, can include: >>> electronic clocks running fast, motors sounding different (microwave, >>> washing machine, pumps), uninterruptible power sources (UPS) not charging >>> and going into back-up power mode, appliances having a computer behaving >>> unusually.* >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 10:33:42 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 07:33:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery monitoring In-Reply-To: <025c01d3a66d$8012acf0$803806d0$@net> References: <025c01d3a66d$8012acf0$803806d0$@net> Message-ID: <4A2418AE-BCC5-42F7-A9B4-9802344DC985@gmail.com> Hi mike, Install a tristar between the wind machine and the batteries like normal. Just set the absorb volts way high. That way it will never get to absorb and hence not regulate. I use this technique with hydro often, but with MPPT. Jay Peltz power. > On Feb 15, 2018, at 6:58 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: > > I am going to be working with a group of high school students this summer who have very limited prior solar experience. We will be installing a small off grid PV system (1.9kW) and small wind turbine generator (400W to 1kW). I plan on using three Morningstar Trimetric controllers, one to control charge of the PV array to the battery bank, a second as a load control relay, and a third as a dump control. I can connect all the Morningstar controllers together on an RS485 bus and connect to the solar charge controller via an Ethernet link to the local area network. The Morningstar controllers will be monitored via a classroom computer, and they will be able to give me Ahrs in from the solar array, Ahrs to the load, Ahrs to the dump load, but not the Ahrs in from the wind turbine generator. My question is, how can I add monitoring of the wind turbine Ahrs that goes to the battery? I will need something that can get to the local area network. Wifi or direct broadcast may be difficult because I have to go through the electronics cabinet and two brick walls. > > The only thing I can think of is to add a Tri or Penta Metric from Bogart Engineering, which would duplicate the info the Morningstar controllers would give me, but could add the Wind Turbine Generator as well, but perhaps there is a better way. > > Thanks for your thoughts. > > Mike Kocsmiersky > Spirit Solar > 413 734-1456 (cell) > > _ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Feb 15 10:58:49 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 07:58:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall and other Li In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1154040d7249fae0fde5fcb3533bd9cd.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> The things people spend money on and the reasons are so varied that dollar analysis is just part of the decision. It can be almost priceless to stay in your home after the utility goes off during a wildfire. Keeping the smoke out, the cool air inside, and not having to go to a shelter or motel are often tipping points. Earthquakes, named windstorms and widespread power outages all add in the decision. At the minimum, a propane or natural gas generator with a month+ of fuel supply. Towns that are evacuated often shut down the utility and then all the gas stations shut down. I could go on but if a client wants to be able to stay in their home, it is pretty easy these days. Add in the SGIP and Federal credits, and for some it is a no brainer! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Hi Hilton, > > We've done the math for our installed cost on the Powerwall 2. Certainly, > it wouldn't make sense to purchase it just for energy savings alone with > current California residential electricity tariffs. However, most folks > are > buying it primarily for backup purposes and then a little bit of utility > savings is just icing on the cake or what storage folks are calling > "stacked benefits." The SGIP for many of our clients is over $5k per > Powerwall (now a little lower) and many clients are pairing with PV and > taking the 30% Fed tax credit. All in all, it is a very good deal. > > August > > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Hilton Dier wrote: > >> Has anyone calculated a lifetime cost per stored and delivered kWh for >> any >> of these lithium battery systems? >> >> From the rough numbers I’ve come up with in the past it seems like >> daily >> cycling to avoid grid use would be a dead loss. The capital cost vs >> capacity and cycle life doesn’t add up. >> >> Also, I know mentioning this is out of line per list etiquette, but >> could >> people refrain from including 20 preceding messages in their posts? I >> tend >> to read this on my phone and my scrolling finger is getting shorter. >> Thanks! >> >> Hilton >> >> Hilton Dier III >> Renewable Energy Design >> Missisquoi River Hydro LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 11:11:49 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 08:11:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] experience with the Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: <04s59ktf8oalgrk8l0seihhs.1518546123094@email.lge.com> Message-ID: <097CC28B-4B9B-401C-866C-BDF40EEA6178@gmail.com> Hi Mac Thanks for mentioning this, I’ve wondered about it a lot. Maybe someone who’s a motor or electronics expert can chime in about what potential damage can occur. Electronics, motors, VFD’s, are used to seeing voltage +/- by a fair amount, but frequency is rarely off by more than a fraction of a percent. If the frequency shift is doing nothing more than turning the GT inverter off ( no stepped regulation) then why do that vs relay? It still makes for a 5 minute delay on restart, correct? Thx Jay > On Feb 15, 2018, at 7:48 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I just wanted to report that some electronics will fail and burn up during frequency shift. We have an off-grid Sunny Island system (60-62 Hz operating frequency) and we experienced sensitive electronics burning up during these events. Its been too long since this happened to tell you exactly what burned up. I think it was some HVAC controls. > > If its possible, I'd suggest a relay that opens up the grid-tie inverter as opposed to waiting until frequency shift is necessary. A well-specified relay can be highly reliable and not very expensive. > > Thanks > >> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 11:26 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: >> An installer I have been working with here in southern VT has also repeatedly applied to become an installer with Tesla for powerwalls with no response. >> I cannot in good conscience recommend their products based on their history and unresponsiveness in our area. >> They may be great for Puerto Rico, and now Australia, but have currently rated a thumbs down here. We are happy with the sonnen product, delivery and support. >> >> Glenn >> Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typographical errors. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> From: Dave Tedeyan >> Date: Tue, Feb 13, 2018 11:35 AM >> To: RE-wrenches; >> Cc: >> Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] experience with the Tesla Powerwall >> >> I think that this may have come up before, but I do not remember there being a resolution: >> Do you guys have any tips on becoming a Tesla dealer? We have people ask about it all the time, but we have not been able to get Tesla to respond. We have installed Sonnen, which is also a great system, but the up front expense scares many people away. We are located in upstate NY which may have something to do with it. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> >> -- >> >> Dave Tedeyan >> Senior Engineer >> >> Taitem Engineering, PC >> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >> www.taitem.com >> >>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:36 AM, August Goers wrote: >>> Marco, >>> >>> Thanks for sharing, it is good to hear details from an installer who is living with a Powerwall. We starting selling the Powerwall 2 in 2017 and have worked up a large pipeline. We have about 20 installed so far, but are still waiting on utility permission to operate which is taking a long time. We have spent a good deal of time commissioning and testing each system. For the most part, our experience has been good although the commissioning software and internet connectivity features have been buggy. Hopefully those are issues that will be ironed out by Tesla. Otherwise, we've had the systems correctly operate in on-grid and off-grid modes with both Sol aredge and SunPower Equinox AC coupled systems. >>> >>> We installed conventional lead acid battery backup systems for over 10 years and I can confidently say that Tesla's Powerwall and Gateway setup is truly market-disruptive. The design flexibility of the Gateway setup, the small size, minimal labor to install, and performance blow other systems out of the water. I hope that other manufacturers are able to catch up with this type of design. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> August >>> >>> August Goers >>> >>> Luminalt Energy Corporation >>> >>> o: 415.641.4000 >>> >>> www.luminalt.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: >>>> Aloha Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I thought I'd share my own experiences with the Powerwall as my company is now launching a program to add PW to existing NEM systems since the vast majority of them do not have storage which means that if the grid goes down, so does their PV system. (With the exception of the SMA SB line and their Secure Power Supply.) >>>> >>>> And no, I'm not a shill or toadie for Tesla. >>>> >>>> marco >>>> >>>> I wanted to walk my own talk. Before we launched adding Powerwall to existing Net Energy Metered solar electric systems, I wanted to make sure that what was promised on paper would work in the real world. I added Powerwall to my NEM system last year and have been monitoring and testing it during normal grid-on and grid outage modes. And I’m very pleased to report that Powerwall has performed flawlessly and as expected. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> When used in a NEM system, Powerwall is programmed to be in “Backup” mode. When utility power is on, Powerwall stands ready in a full state of charge for any power outage. During normal grid-on conditions, my Powerall takes about .6 kilowatt-hours every other day to stay fully charged. Over the course of the month, this Powerwall’s electricity consumption comes to about 9 kWhs or about $3/month at the current HELCO R rate. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have turned the utility power off to my home on a number of occasions in order to experience how Powerwall would perform in a simulated grid outage. When the grid goes down, my house effectively becomes a self-generating micro-grid. That is, my photovoltaic system (solar modules and inverters) and Powerwall (battery storage and integrated inverter) form a power grid with energy being created and stored and then consumed by my electric loads. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Several things I noted from my simulated grid outages: >>>> >>>> · I purposefully overloaded Powerwall by turning on my electric dryer and electric oven at the same time. As expected, since the maximum output of Powerwall is 5 kilowatts, it shutdown. Meaning that all the power in my house went off. Within seconds, Powerwall reset itself and the power came back on, with the dryer and oven having shut down after the power went off. If power does not come back on after your Powerwall trips off, you will need to turn off those high-power loads and reset Powerwall by turning its black on-off switch, located on the right side of the unit, from on to off and then on again. The important takeaway: during a utility outage, you will need to be careful as far as operating heavy electric loads, especially 240 volt appliances both from the perspective of overloading your Powerwall and rapidly drawing down the battery capacity, especially at night. >>>> >>>> · The magic of frequency shifting. Without getting into too much techno-talk, this is the story of frequency shifting. Normal utility frequency is 60 hertz (Hz). PV inverters require the utility frequency to be at or near 60 Hz in order to operate. During a grid outage, Powerwall effectively establishes grid quality power (120/240 volts at 60 Hz), allowing a micro grid to operate with solar providing power to your house loads (during daylight hours) and charge Powerwall as needed. During the day with the loads being met by your PV system and Powerwall being at or near full state of charge (97-100 percent), Powerwall will shift the frequency from 60 to 66 Hz in order to turn off the PV inverter(s). That is, the PV inverter(s) see the frequency out of spec and shut down as they’re expected and required to do. Why? Because with Powerwall at or near full and the house loads being met, there’s nowhere for any additional solar generation to go. Powerwall will wait for its the state of charge to drop below 96-97 percent before shifting the frequency back to 60 Hz which allows the PV system to restart and generate solar power again. This frequency shifting can take place repeatedly over the course of the day depending on load demands, solar potential and Powerwall state of charge and is perfectly normal and does not damage the PV inverters. >>>> >>>> · 66 Hz and home appliances: when Powerwall is at 66 Hz, some of your house loads may be affected. What I and other Powerwall owners have noticed, while not a comprehensive list, can include: electronic clocks running fast, motors sounding different (microwave, washing machine, pumps), uninterruptible power sources (UPS) not charging and going into back-up power mode, appliances having a computer behaving unusually. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g.rochlin at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 17:54:13 2018 From: g.rochlin at gmail.com (Gary Rochlin) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:54:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <006801d3a20c$c3186720$49493560$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00dc01d3a779$111952b0$334bf810$@gmail.com> Yes they are – I took one of the packs apart and each battery is made up of 7 packs of 16 Panasonic CGR1865D Panasonic LI Batteries. I think if we do a test charge and see if we can get the voltage to increase it will be an indication the battery is still good. Thank you for your Input. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer Sent: Friday, February 9, 2018 7:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries Gary I have been told that below a certain voltage the LI-ion cells suffer a permanent death. I believe these batteries are small cells in parallel.strings and then series connected strings. to make the voltage.can you use a lab power supply to start the charge? I purchased one for about 60 to 90 $ that allows me to adjust the voltage and limit the current until the battery gets up to voltage IF it ever does.. On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 7:16 PM, Gary Rochlin > wrote: Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery. We are doing a repair on an older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge controllers. Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were called in. Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were made for lead acid batteries. I’m looking at finding the way to charge the iCel batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries. I think I’m making sense here. Blue Sky Energy g.rochlin at blue-sky-energy.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g.rochlin at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 17:55:05 2018 From: g.rochlin at gmail.com (Gary Rochlin) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:55:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <006801d3a20c$c3186720$49493560$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00e101d3a779$300c24e0$90246ea0$@gmail.com> Hi Allen - Thank you for the input. It is much appreciated. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Sindelar Solar Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 12:38 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to send the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is reached. More specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 60 or 72 Vnom depending on array. Let the other controller remain in normal operation. Send the unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up; then the other controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is reconnected. Better if the unregulated array is the smaller of the two, I would suspect. What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these Li-I, as I have no experience with restoring them. Daryl may well be right about being unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the batteries may need an operational BMS to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for thought. Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote: Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery. We are doing a repair on an older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge controllers. Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were called in. Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were made for lead acid batteries. I'm looking at finding the way to charge the iCel batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries. I think I'm making sense here. Blue Sky Energy g.rochlin at blue-sky-energy.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g.rochlin at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 17:56:18 2018 From: g.rochlin at gmail.com (Gary Rochlin) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:56:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <006801d3a20c$c3186720$49493560$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00e601d3a779$5b8f5d80$12ae1880$@gmail.com> Hi Allen – Thank you for the input. It is much appreciated. I’m going to purchase a 48V Charger. Gary Rochlin / Managing Partner Blue Sky Energy g.rochlin at blue-sky-energy.com 310.422.2908 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of John Blittersdorf Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 6:20 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries Gary, I keep 24v and 48 v IOTA chargers with jumper cables attached for those times when systems are dead. Just a minute or so plugged into my Honda 2000I or generator on bypass gets everything lit up and running. Just did one yesterday. Got Kohler running but Mate 3 and inverter would not turn on. John B Sent from my iPhone On Feb 10, 2018, at 3:37 AM, Sindelar Solar > wrote: Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to send the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is reached. More specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 60 or 72 Vnom depending on array. Let the other controller remain in normal operation. Send the unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up; then the other controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is reconnected. Better if the unregulated array is the smaller of the two, I would suspect. What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these Li-I, as I have no experience with restoring them. Daryl may well be right about being unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the batteries may need an operational BMS to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for thought. Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote: Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery. We are doing a repair on an older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge controllers. Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were called in. Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were made for lead acid batteries. I’m looking at finding the way to charge the iCel batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries. I think I’m making sense here. Blue Sky Energy g.rochlin at blue-sky-energy.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g.rochlin at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 17:57:05 2018 From: g.rochlin at gmail.com (Gary Rochlin) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:57:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <006801d3a20c$c3186720$49493560$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00eb01d3a779$7792b0e0$66b812a0$@gmail.com> Noted - Thank you for the input. It is much appreciated. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Steve Higgins Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 9:20 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries That's probably what I would try also... but be really careful with Li, there may be an issue with the BMS already, doing this could cause thermal runaway... I would probably do so away from any structures, and I would be using an thermal camera to monitor for hot spots. I've done this with Li Po RC Batteries and a 12volt regulated power supply... I don't know how they will react to direct array voltage. On Feb 10, 2018 12:38 AM, "Sindelar Solar" > wrote: Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to send the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is reached. More specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 60 or 72 Vnom depending on array. Let the other controller remain in normal operation. Send the unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up; then the other controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is reconnected. Better if the unregulated array is the smaller of the two, I would suspect. What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these Li-I, as I have no experience with restoring them. Daryl may well be right about being unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the batteries may need an operational BMS to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for thought. Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote: Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery. We are doing a repair on an older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge controllers. Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were called in. Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were made for lead acid batteries. I’m looking at finding the way to charge the iCel batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries. I think I’m making sense here. Blue Sky Energy g.rochlin at blue-sky-energy.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g.rochlin at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 17:58:15 2018 From: g.rochlin at gmail.com (Gary Rochlin) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:58:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <006801d3a20c$c3186720$49493560$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00f001d3a779$a17b9a70$e472cf50$@gmail.com> Hi Ray- Thank you for the input. It is much appreciated. I'm going to purchase a 48V Charger and give it a go. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 10:24 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries Allan has a good approach as long as you are there to monitor it. The wiring is already there, you just have jump the array positive to the controller output. ( a little double lugging never hurt anyone....?!!.) Even higher voltage arrays with MPPT can be used this way. They will just put out close to their short circuit current, as the batteries will pull the array voltage way down on the IV curve. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/10/18 1:37 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote: Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to send the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is reached. More specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 60 or 72 Vnom depending on array. Let the other controller remain in normal operation. Send the unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up; then the other controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is reconnected. Better if the unregulated array is the smaller of the two, I would suspect. What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these Li-I, as I have no experience with restoring them. Daryl may well be right about being unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the batteries may need an operational BMS to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for thought. Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote: Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery. We are doing a repair on an older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge controllers. Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were called in. Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were made for lead acid batteries. I'm looking at finding the way to charge the iCel batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries. I think I'm making sense here. Blue Sky Energy g.rochlin at blue-sky-energy.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g.rochlin at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 18:00:12 2018 From: g.rochlin at gmail.com (Gary Rochlin) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 15:00:12 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <006801d3a20c$c3186720$49493560$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00f501d3a779$e7003bf0$b500b3d0$@gmail.com> Thank you for the input. I’m going to purchase a 48V Charger and charger each module and monitor it closely. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 4:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries Is there not a concern that if the batteries are showing such low voltage that they will not accept current, and the voltage will rise to module voltage and put array voltage on the output of the charge controller? On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Ray > wrote: Allan has a good approach as long as you are there to monitor it. The wiring is already there, you just have jump the array positive to the controller output. ( a little double lugging never hurt anyone....?!!.) Even higher voltage arrays with MPPT can be used this way. They will just put out close to their short circuit current, as the batteries will pull the array voltage way down on the IV curve. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/10/18 1:37 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote: Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to send the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is reached. More specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 60 or 72 Vnom depending on array. Let the other controller remain in normal operation. Send the unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up; then the other controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is reconnected. Better if the unregulated array is the smaller of the two, I would suspect. What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these Li-I, as I have no experience with restoring them. Daryl may well be right about being unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the batteries may need an operational BMS to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for thought. Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote: Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery. We are doing a repair on an older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge controllers. Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were called in. Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were made for lead acid batteries. I’m looking at finding the way to charge the iCel batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries. I think I’m making sense here. Blue Sky Energy g.rochlin at blue-sky-energy.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g.rochlin at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 18:04:49 2018 From: g.rochlin at gmail.com (Gary Rochlin) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 15:04:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries (Steve Higgins) In-Reply-To: <90979cd3-a631-bb0a-efa6-b9266b9b5132@taitem.com> References: <90979cd3-a631-bb0a-efa6-b9266b9b5132@taitem.com> Message-ID: <00fa01d3a77a$8c49c590$a4dd50b0$@gmail.com> Hi Tom; Each battery consists of 7 pack of 16 Panasonic CGR 1865D batteries making up a 48V system from what I understand from Panasonic 1.5 kWh. The Panasonic tech mentioned he knew of the firm and gave me the name of one if the tech officers. I'm going to look him up and see if I can get some info from him. Going to purchase a 48V charger and test each battery to see if it hold a charge. Thank you for your input. Gary Rochlin / Managing Partner Blue Sky Energy g.rochlin at blue-sky-energy.com 310.422.2908 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Ruscitti Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 12:16 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries (Steve Higgins) Some of my non-solar consulting involves test engineering for lithium ion materials development. I'm no expert but I do get to work with folks developing and testing cells and sit in on industry training and conferences now and then. I would discourage trying the jump start described here without direct guidance from the cell / battery manufacturer and a properly operating BMS. Li-ion batteries can be much less tolerant to over-charge and over-discharge than the lead acid we're used to working with in the solar business. Li-ion batteries require a strictly enforced minimum cutoff voltage. For example, the discharge cutoff for one recent client's battery is spec'd at 2.5V per cell. There can be damage to the anode If voltage falls below that. Also, if you try the jump-start on compromised packs with no BMS, different cells will charge at different rates due to differing internal resistance (one function of BMS is cell balancing). Over-charging can result in permanent capacity loss and also electrode damage. Depending on the chemistry this sort of damage can increase the risk of thermal events. I've heard that some BMS will prevent recharging if the minimum cell voltage limit has been busted, but no first hand experience myself. If you do a web search on "lithium ion damage over discharge" you'll see plenty of discussion. I tried to find specs on the iCel system but didn't find anything useful. be careful, Tom -- Tom Ruscitti Senior Engineer Taitem Engineering, PC 110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 Mobile: (607) 220-7022 www.taitem.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From ray at solarray.com Fri Feb 16 18:08:51 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 16:08:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries (Steve Higgins) In-Reply-To: <00fa01d3a77a$8c49c590$a4dd50b0$@gmail.com> References: <90979cd3-a631-bb0a-efa6-b9266b9b5132@taitem.com> <00fa01d3a77a$8c49c590$a4dd50b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <35fbec5f-4d82-3c2b-8774-ea32aff250ba@solarray.com> We found the Quick Charge Chargers to be the best deal for 48 v chargers, otherwise the Iota is good for lower voltages https://quickcharge.com/ Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/16/18 4:04 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote: > Hi Tom; > > Each battery consists of 7 pack of 16 Panasonic CGR 1865D batteries making > up a 48V system from what I understand from Panasonic 1.5 kWh. The > Panasonic tech mentioned he knew of the firm and gave me the name of one if > the tech officers. I'm going to look him up and see if I can get some info > from him. Going to purchase a 48V charger and test each battery to see if > it hold a charge. Thank you for your input. > > > Gary Rochlin / Managing Partner > Blue Sky Energy > g.rochlin at blue-sky-energy.com > 310.422.2908 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Tom Ruscitti > Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 12:16 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries (Steve > Higgins) > > Some of my non-solar consulting involves test engineering for lithium ion > materials development. I'm no expert but I do get to work with folks > developing and testing cells and sit in on industry training and conferences > now and then. I would discourage trying the jump start described here > without direct guidance from the cell / battery manufacturer and a properly > operating BMS. Li-ion batteries can be much less tolerant to over-charge and > over-discharge than the lead acid we're used to working with in the solar > business. Li-ion batteries require a strictly enforced minimum cutoff > voltage. For example, the discharge cutoff for one recent client's battery > is spec'd at 2.5V per cell. There can be damage to the anode If voltage > falls below that. Also, if you try the jump-start on compromised packs with > no BMS, different cells will charge at different rates due to differing > internal resistance (one function of BMS is cell balancing). Over-charging > can result in permanent capacity loss and also electrode damage. Depending > on the chemistry this sort of damage can increase the risk of thermal > events. > I've heard that some BMS will prevent recharging if the minimum cell voltage > limit has been busted, but no first hand experience myself. If you do a web > search on "lithium ion damage over discharge" you'll see plenty of > discussion. I tried to find specs on the iCel system but didn't find > anything useful. > > be careful, > > Tom > > -- > Tom Ruscitti > Senior Engineer > > Taitem Engineering, PC > 110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Mobile: (607) 220-7022 > www.taitem.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Feb 16 19:15:34 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 16:15:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries (Steve Higgins) In-Reply-To: <35fbec5f-4d82-3c2b-8774-ea32aff250ba@solarray.com> References: <90979cd3-a631-bb0a-efa6-b9266b9b5132@taitem.com> <00fa01d3a77a$8c49c590$a4dd50b0$@gmail.com> <35fbec5f-4d82-3c2b-8774-ea32aff250ba@solarray.com> Message-ID: Same cells that Tesla uses! Type NMC lithium 18650's. > We found the Quick Charge Chargers to be the best deal for 48 v > chargers, otherwise the Iota is good for lower voltages > > https://quickcharge.com/ > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > > On 2/16/18 4:04 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote: >> Hi Tom; >> >> Each battery consists of 7 pack of 16 Panasonic CGR 1865D batteries >> making >> up a 48V system from what I understand from Panasonic 1.5 kWh. The >> Panasonic tech mentioned he knew of the firm and gave me the name of one >> if >> the tech officers. I'm going to look him up and see if I can get some >> info >> from him. Going to purchase a 48V charger and test each battery to see >> if >> it hold a charge. Thank you for your input. >> >> >> Gary Rochlin / Managing Partner >> Blue Sky Energy >> g.rochlin at blue-sky-energy.com >> 310.422.2908 >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of Tom Ruscitti >> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 12:16 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries >> (Steve >> Higgins) >> >> Some of my non-solar consulting involves test engineering for lithium >> ion >> materials development. I'm no expert but I do get to work with folks >> developing and testing cells and sit in on industry training and >> conferences >> now and then. I would discourage trying the jump start described here >> without direct guidance from the cell / battery manufacturer and a >> properly >> operating BMS. Li-ion batteries can be much less tolerant to over-charge >> and >> over-discharge than the lead acid we're used to working with in the >> solar >> business. Li-ion batteries require a strictly enforced minimum cutoff >> voltage. For example, the discharge cutoff for one recent client's >> battery >> is spec'd at 2.5V per cell. There can be damage to the anode If voltage >> falls below that. Also, if you try the jump-start on compromised packs >> with >> no BMS, different cells will charge at different rates due to differing >> internal resistance (one function of BMS is cell balancing). >> Over-charging >> can result in permanent capacity loss and also electrode damage. >> Depending >> on the chemistry this sort of damage can increase the risk of thermal >> events. >> I've heard that some BMS will prevent recharging if the minimum cell >> voltage >> limit has been busted, but no first hand experience myself. If you do a >> web >> search on "lithium ion damage over discharge" you'll see plenty of >> discussion. I tried to find specs on the iCel system but didn't find >> anything useful. >> >> be careful, >> >> Tom >> >> -- >> Tom Ruscitti >> Senior Engineer >> >> Taitem Engineering, PC >> 110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Mobile: (607) 220-7022 >> www.taitem.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Feb 15 14:53:17 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 11:53:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] experience with the Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: <097CC28B-4B9B-401C-866C-BDF40EEA6178@gmail.com> References: <04s59ktf8oalgrk8l0seihhs.1518546123094@email.lge.com> <097CC28B-4B9B-401C-866C-BDF40EEA6178@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0bc74c53b33f5061b4b5b83bb138c756.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Damaging a mini-split heat pump has happened from this at a home in Florida. Hard always to prove as anything connected to the grid can be surge damaged also. Fujitsu did pay the warranty repair but would not if it happened again. In cases where I have been approached to AC couple, I just recommend using the Schneider or Morningstar 600V controller and deselect the grid inverter solar/select the mppt. The battery inverter gets a programmed charge from the grid every 2 weeks and is ready to go drive the sub panel. Tesla says they are going to build an "offgrid" type battery which I assume to mean that it will not require AC coupling like the current models do. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Hi Mac > > Thanks for mentioning this, I’ve wondered about it a lot. > Maybe someone who’s a motor or electronics expert can chime in about > what potential damage can occur. Electronics, motors, VFD’s, are used to > seeing voltage +/- by a fair amount, but frequency is rarely off by more > than a fraction of a percent. > > > If the frequency shift is doing nothing more than turning the GT inverter > off ( no stepped regulation) then why do that vs relay? It still makes for > a 5 minute delay on restart, correct? > > Thx > Jay > > > > > >> On Feb 15, 2018, at 7:48 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> I just wanted to report that some electronics will fail and burn up >> during frequency shift. We have an off-grid Sunny Island system (60-62 >> Hz operating frequency) and we experienced sensitive electronics burning >> up during these events. Its been too long since this happened to tell >> you exactly what burned up. I think it was some HVAC controls. >> >> If its possible, I'd suggest a relay that opens up the grid-tie inverter >> as opposed to waiting until frequency shift is necessary. A >> well-specified relay can be highly reliable and not very expensive. >> >> Thanks >> >>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 11:26 AM, Glenn Burt >>> wrote: >>> An installer I have been working with here in southern VT has also >>> repeatedly applied to become an installer with Tesla for powerwalls >>> with no response. >>> I cannot in good conscience recommend their products based on their >>> history and unresponsiveness in our area. >>> They may be great for Puerto Rico, and now Australia, but have >>> currently rated a thumbs down here. We are happy with the sonnen >>> product, delivery and support. >>> >>> Glenn >>> Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typographical >>> errors. >>> >>> ------ Original message------ >>> From: Dave Tedeyan >>> Date: Tue, Feb 13, 2018 11:35 AM >>> To: RE-wrenches; >>> Cc: >>> Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] experience with the Tesla Powerwall >>> >>> I think that this may have come up before, but I do not remember there >>> being a resolution: >>> Do you guys have any tips on becoming a Tesla dealer? We have people >>> ask about it all the time, but we have not been able to get Tesla to >>> respond. We have installed Sonnen, which is also a great system, but >>> the up front expense scares many people away. We are located in upstate >>> NY which may have something to do with it. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Dave Tedeyan >>> Senior Engineer >>> >>> Taitem Engineering, PC >>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >>> www.taitem.com >>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:36 AM, August Goers >>>> wrote: >>>> Marco, >>>> >>>> Thanks for sharing, it is good to hear details from an installer who >>>> is living with a Powerwall. We starting selling the Powerwall 2 in >>>> 2017 and have worked up a large pipeline. We have about 20 installed >>>> so far, but are still waiting on utility permission to operate which >>>> is taking a long time. We have spent a good deal of time commissioning >>>> and testing each system. For the most part, our experience has been >>>> good although the commissioning software and internet connectivity >>>> features have been buggy. Hopefully those are issues that will be >>>> ironed out by Tesla. Otherwise, we've had the systems correctly >>>> operate in on-grid and off-grid modes with both Sol aredge and >>>> SunPower Equinox AC coupled systems. >>>> >>>> We installed conventional lead acid battery backup systems for over 10 >>>> years and I can confidently say that Tesla's Powerwall and Gateway >>>> setup is truly market-disruptive. The design flexibility of the >>>> Gateway setup, the small size, minimal labor to install, and >>>> performance blow other systems out of the water. I hope that other >>>> manufacturers are able to catch up with this type of design. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> August >>>> >>>> August Goers >>>> >>>> Luminalt Energy Corporation >>>> >>>> o: 415.641.4000 >>>> >>>> www.luminalt.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf >>>>> wrote: >>>>> Aloha Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> I thought I'd share my own experiences with the Powerwall as my >>>>> company is now launching a program to add PW to existing NEM systems >>>>> since the vast majority of them do not have storage which means that >>>>> if the grid goes down, so does their PV system. (With the exception >>>>> of the SMA SB line and their Secure Power Supply.) >>>>> >>>>> And no, I'm not a shill or toadie for Tesla. >>>>> >>>>> marco >>>>> >>>>> I wanted to walk my own talk. Before we launched adding Powerwall to >>>>> existing Net Energy Metered solar electric systems, I wanted to make >>>>> sure that what was promised on paper would work in the real world. I >>>>> added Powerwall to my NEM system last year and have been monitoring >>>>> and testing it during normal grid-on and grid outage modes. And >>>>> I’m very pleased to report that Powerwall has performed flawlessly >>>>> and as expected. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> When used in a NEM system, Powerwall is programmed to be in >>>>> “Backup” mode. When utility power is on, Powerwall stands ready >>>>> in a full state of charge for any power outage. During normal >>>>> grid-on conditions, my Powerall takes about .6 kilowatt-hours every >>>>> other day to stay fully charged. Over the course of the month, this >>>>> Powerwall’s electricity consumption comes to about 9 kWhs or about >>>>> $3/month at the current HELCO R rate. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have turned the utility power off to my home on a number of >>>>> occasions in order to experience how Powerwall would perform in a >>>>> simulated grid outage. When the grid goes down, my house effectively >>>>> becomes a self-generating micro-grid. That is, my photovoltaic >>>>> system (solar modules and inverters) and Powerwall (battery storage >>>>> and integrated inverter) form a power grid with energy being created >>>>> and stored and then consumed by my electric loads. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Several things I noted from my simulated grid outages: >>>>> >>>>> · I purposefully overloaded Powerwall by turning on my >>>>> electric dryer and electric oven at the same time. As expected, >>>>> since the maximum output of Powerwall is 5 kilowatts, it shutdown. >>>>> Meaning that all the power in my house went off. Within seconds, >>>>> Powerwall reset itself and the power came back on, with the dryer and >>>>> oven having shut down after the power went off. If power does not >>>>> come back on after your Powerwall trips off, you will need to turn >>>>> off those high-power loads and reset Powerwall by turning its black >>>>> on-off switch, located on the right side of the unit, from on to off >>>>> and then on again. The important takeaway: during a utility outage, >>>>> you will need to be careful as far as operating heavy electric loads, >>>>> especially 240 volt appliances both from the perspective of >>>>> overloading your Powerwall and rapidly drawing down the battery >>>>> capacity, especially at night. >>>>> >>>>> · The magic of frequency shifting. Without getting into too >>>>> much techno-talk, this is the story of frequency shifting. Normal >>>>> utility frequency is 60 hertz (Hz). PV inverters require the utility >>>>> frequency to be at or near 60 Hz in order to operate. During a grid >>>>> outage, Powerwall effectively establishes grid quality power (120/240 >>>>> volts at 60 Hz), allowing a micro grid to operate with solar >>>>> providing power to your house loads (during daylight hours) and >>>>> charge Powerwall as needed. During the day with the loads being met >>>>> by your PV system and Powerwall being at or near full state of charge >>>>> (97-100 percent), Powerwall will shift the frequency from 60 to 66 Hz >>>>> in order to turn off the PV inverter(s). That is, the PV inverter(s) >>>>> see the frequency out of spec and shut down as they’re expected and >>>>> required to do. Why? Because with Powerwall at or near full and the >>>>> house loads being met, there’s nowhere for any additional solar >>>>> generation to go. Powerwall will wait for its the state of charge to >>>>> drop below 96-97 percent before shifting the frequency back to 60 Hz >>>>> which allows the PV system to restart and generate solar power again. >>>>> This frequency shifting can take place repeatedly over the course >>>>> of the day depending on load demands, solar potential and Powerwall >>>>> state of charge and is perfectly normal and does not damage the PV >>>>> inverters. >>>>> >>>>> · 66 Hz and home appliances: when Powerwall is at 66 Hz, >>>>> some of your house loads may be affected. What I and other Powerwall >>>>> owners have noticed, while not a comprehensive list, can include: >>>>> electronic clocks running fast, motors sounding different (microwave, >>>>> washing machine, pumps), uninterruptible power sources (UPS) not >>>>> charging and going into back-up power mode, appliances having a >>>>> computer behaving unusually. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From ray at solarray.com Mon Feb 19 14:14:30 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 12:14:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico Message-ID: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> Greetings Wrenches; We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more.  What is everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup?  I've worked with the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard the Storedge is not a good off grid option.  What are the issues, and has anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages? Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only)  These are lower cost and allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also have limited charge and discharge current.  In order to make Li+ cost effective, we have had to reduce the storage size in half compared to lead acid.  We feel this is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to 100%, its voltage stability, and its higher efficiency. All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted territory.  We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not be functional in 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid batteries.  We use HUP batteries for most larger off grid systems, but these are not feasible because of their size and maintenance requirements. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 19 14:45:52 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:45:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> References: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> Message-ID: LG has decided not to allow their 48V batteries to be used for offgrid. The 400V LG and Solar edge is too small to be useful for offgrid in my opinion and no warranty. I would add Discover battery to your LFP list. They communicate by canbus and Xanbus to Schneider XW and CSW gear. It is too bad about LG (or Tesla) as they were light and not too expensive Lithium type NMC chemistry. The other LFP Chemistry is much heavier and around $1,000 a usable KWH, or 4 times flooded LA. A hard sell at this time. I still am running the LG RESU10 XW power system and I attached a screen shot of how nice the Engineers at Schneider did making a simple power display with all the Offgrid data. I left out the Generator display as we do not need one here in the California Sierras. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Greetings Wrenches; > > We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will > eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to > operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more.  What is > everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup?  I've worked with > the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard > the Storedge is not a good off grid option.  What are the issues, and > has anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages? > > Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum > inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like > Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only)  These are lower cost and > allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also have limited > charge and discharge current.  In order to make Li+ cost effective, we > have had to reduce the storage size in half compared to lead acid.  We > feel this is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to > 100%, its voltage stability, and its higher efficiency. > > All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted > territory.  We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not > be functional in 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid > batteries.  We use HUP batteries for most larger off grid systems, but > these are not feasible because of their size and maintenance requirements. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: saturday bridge.PNG Type: image/png Size: 45097 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Mon Feb 19 15:26:19 2018 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 15:26:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> References: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> Message-ID: <6b144c57886894dc29c9ea7807a4d199.squirrel@www.solar-energy-solutions.com> Ray, I think your biggest issue may be SolarEdge. They told us the StorEdge unit would not start up without grid power. We had an employee install one anyway on his tiny home. He hooked it up to the grid initially to get it started (in back of shop where house was built). He is not sure how sincere Solaredge's requirement is as he has turned off for periods since then and it still starts up. We wish we had tried without the grid initially. Let us know if that works should you go that route. Overall he enjoys the unit though he mentions his battery has shutdown a couple times when it has gotten below 15F (battery is on exterior as it is tiny home). Probably not applicable for your installs. Matt On Mon, February 19, 2018 2:14 pm, Ray wrote: > Greetings Wrenches; > > > We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will > eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to > operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more.  What is > everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup?  I've worked with > the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard > the Storedge is not a good off grid option.  What are the issues, and has > anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages? > > Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum > inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like > Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only)  These are lower cost and > allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also have limited > charge and discharge current.  In order to make Li+ cost effective, we > have had to reduce the storage size in half compared to lead acid.  We > feel this is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to > 100%, its voltage stability, and its higher efficiency. > > > All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted > territory.  We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not be > functional in 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid batteries.  > We use HUP batteries for most larger off grid systems, but > these are not feasible because of their size and maintenance requirements. > > > Thanks, > > > Ray Walters > > > Remote Solar > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 15:36:34 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:36:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: <6b144c57886894dc29c9ea7807a4d199.squirrel@www.solar-energy-solutions.com> References: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> <6b144c57886894dc29c9ea7807a4d199.squirrel@www.solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: I live in a Caribbean Island and use off-grid solar with grid as backup when available. We just went through Irma and lost power for three months. I've lived these solutions. I wouldn't use anything other than an Outback Radian for this with a DC charge controller, but finding a good Lithium solution will take a little work. We have 1100 Ah of Lead acid, but only use 20% of that. So 300Ah of useable storage would have been adequate for Lithium and that's what we will use later. Relion looks promising. Right now there is no good integrated Lithium solution. On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 4:26 PM, Matt Partymiller < matt at solar-energy-solutions.com> wrote: > Ray, > > I think your biggest issue may be SolarEdge. They told us the StorEdge > unit would not start up without grid power. We had an employee install > one anyway on his tiny home. He hooked it up to the grid initially to get > it started (in back of shop where house was built). He is not sure how > sincere Solaredge's requirement is as he has turned off for periods since > then and it still starts up. We wish we had tried without the grid > initially. Let us know if that works should you go that route. > > Overall he enjoys the unit though he mentions his battery has shutdown a > couple times when it has gotten below 15F (battery is on exterior as it is > tiny home). Probably not applicable for your installs. > > Matt > > > On Mon, February 19, 2018 2:14 pm, Ray wrote: > > Greetings Wrenches; > > > > > > We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will > > eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to > > operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more. What is > > everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup? I've worked with > > the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard > > the Storedge is not a good off grid option. What are the issues, and has > > anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages? > > > > Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum > > inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like > > Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only) These are lower cost and > > allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also have limited > > charge and discharge current. In order to make Li+ cost effective, we > > have had to reduce the storage size in half compared to lead acid. We > > feel this is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to > > 100%, its voltage stability, and its higher efficiency. > > > > > > All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted > > territory. We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not be > > functional in 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid batteries. > > We use HUP batteries for most larger off grid systems, but > > these are not feasible because of their size and maintenance > requirements. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Ray Walters > > > > > > Remote Solar > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.ht > > ml > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Mon Feb 19 14:41:09 2018 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:41:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> References: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> Message-ID: I was in Puerto Rico last week up in the hills helping train with a small-ish off-grid combination systems. What I saw in our training building was a Sonnen system with OB Radian, Four Sonnen Li batteries, some external circuitry (relays, etc) and PV using Enphase inverters running in AC coupled mode.  Batteries when I saw the SOC was sitting at 91 percent which, as I understand, might be good for longevity but might have been there because the system can't just frequency shift.  This system appeared to work very well. I could get used to staying in PR ! boB On 2/19/2018 11:14 AM, Ray wrote: > Greetings Wrenches; > > We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will > eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to > operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more.  What > is everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup?  I've worked > with the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've > heard the Storedge is not a good off grid option.  What are the > issues, and has anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages? > > Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum > inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, > like Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only)  These are lower > cost and allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also > have limited charge and discharge current.  In order to make Li+ cost > effective, we have had to reduce the storage size in half compared to > lead acid.  We feel this is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to > be discharged to 100%, its voltage stability, and its higher efficiency. > > All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted > territory.  We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not > be functional in 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid > batteries.  We use HUP batteries for most larger off grid systems, but > these are not feasible because of their size and maintenance > requirements. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From solarworks at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 18:10:47 2018 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 15:10:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> References: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> Message-ID: Blue Planet - Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are a good option for off grid and work very well with the Outback Radian inverters. They are rated at 8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge and can be monitored remotely. The batteries , like in the Sonnen system are made by Sony. The company was just down in PR doing some installs and had some very good feedback from local installers. One more option for the tool bag. Also, Outback just released a white paper on AC coupling using a solid state relay into the Radian. So they are now providing some guidance on this as of just recently. I still prefer DC coupling with grid tied mode when the grid does come back around. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Ray wrote: > Greetings Wrenches; > > We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will > eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to > operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more. What is > everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup? I've worked with > the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard the > Storedge is not a good off grid option. What are the issues, and has > anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages? > > Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum > inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like > Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only) These are lower cost and > allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also have limited > charge and discharge current. In order to make Li+ cost effective, we have > had to reduce the storage size in half compared to lead acid. We feel this > is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to 100%, its > voltage stability, and its higher efficiency. > > All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted territory. > We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not be functional in > 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid batteries. We use HUP > batteries for most larger off grid systems, but these are not feasible > because of their size and maintenance requirements. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 19 18:44:04 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 15:44:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: References: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> Message-ID: The Blue planet does not get its data into the Outback and Schneider web portals for remote monitoring. You have to have both the Blue Planet monitor and the Outback or Schneider monitor for the inverter data. They are nice batteries but still around $1,000 per usable kwh. Sony sold their LFP battery company a ways back. --Dave > Blue Planet - Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are a good option for off > grid and work very well with the Outback Radian inverters. They are rated > at 8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge > and > can be monitored remotely. The batteries , like in the Sonnen system are > made by Sony. > The company was just down in PR doing some installs and had some very good > feedback from local installers. > One more option for the tool bag. > Also, Outback just released a white paper on AC coupling using a solid > state relay into the Radian. So they are now providing some guidance on > this as of just recently. I still prefer DC coupling with grid tied mode > when the grid does come back around. > > > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > > On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Ray wrote: > >> Greetings Wrenches; >> >> We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will >> eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to >> operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more. What is >> everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup? I've worked with >> the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard >> the >> Storedge is not a good off grid option. What are the issues, and has >> anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages? >> >> Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum >> inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like >> Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only) These are lower cost and >> allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also have limited >> charge and discharge current. In order to make Li+ cost effective, we >> have >> had to reduce the storage size in half compared to lead acid. We feel >> this >> is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to 100%, its >> voltage stability, and its higher efficiency. >> >> All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted >> territory. >> We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not be functional >> in >> 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid batteries. We use HUP >> batteries for most larger off grid systems, but these are not feasible >> because of their size and maintenance requirements. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ray Walters >> >> Remote Solar >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or >> g/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Feb 19 19:08:54 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 17:08:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: References: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> Message-ID: <36F52171-B670-4644-95AB-1C1614910408@starlightsolar.com> Hi Kirpal, “...8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge…” I saw that on their website but there is no substantiating data from real cycle life tests. When Sony introduced this battery, they claimed 2000 cycles at 80% DoD. For such an extraordinary claim, there must be a catch. Do you have any information about testing or a copy of their warranty? Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 19, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Kirpal wrote: Blue Planet - Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are a good option for off grid and work very well with the Outback Radian inverters. They are rated at 8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge and can be monitored remotely. The batteries , like in the Sonnen system are made by Sony. The company was just down in PR doing some installs and had some very good feedback from local installers. One more option for the tool bag. Also, Outback just released a white paper on AC coupling using a solid state relay into the Radian. So they are now providing some guidance on this as of just recently. I still prefer DC coupling with grid tied mode when the grid does come back around. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Ray > wrote: Greetings Wrenches; We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more. What is everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup? I've worked with the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard the Storedge is not a good off grid option. What are the issues, and has anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages? Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only) These are lower cost and allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also have limited charge and discharge current. In order to make Li+ cost effective, we have had to reduce the storage size in half compared to lead acid. We feel this is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to 100%, its voltage stability, and its higher efficiency. All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted territory. We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not be functional in 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid batteries. We use HUP batteries for most larger off grid systems, but these are not feasible because of their size and maintenance requirements. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 19 19:31:42 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:31:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: <36F52171-B670-4644-95AB-1C1614910408@starlightsolar.com> References: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> <36F52171-B670-4644-95AB-1C1614910408@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: If he does not I do. I think I remember reading HALT testing to get the years. LG claims 6000 cycles at 10% where they shut down. They wanted me to become a dealer but I would rather buy from AEE or Soligent and let them deal with sales tax and duty. The Blue color was a bit weird and the new model is looks more mainstream/commercial. --Dave > Hi Kirpal, > > “...8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of > discharge…” > I saw that on their website but there is no substantiating data from real > cycle life tests. When Sony introduced this battery, they claimed 2000 > cycles at 80% DoD. For such an extraordinary claim, there must be a catch. > Do you have any information about testing or a copy of their warranty? > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > On Feb 19, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Kirpal wrote: > > Blue Planet - Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are a good option for off > grid and work very well with the Outback Radian inverters. They are rated > at 8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge > and can be monitored remotely. The batteries , like in the Sonnen system > are made by Sony. > The company was just down in PR doing some installs and had some very good > feedback from local installers. > One more option for the tool bag. > Also, Outback just released a white paper on AC coupling using a solid > state relay into the Radian. So they are now providing some guidance on > this as of just recently. I still prefer DC coupling with grid tied mode > when the grid does come back around. > > > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > > On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Ray > wrote: > Greetings Wrenches; > > We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will > eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to > operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more. What is > everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup? I've worked with > the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard > the Storedge is not a good off grid option. What are the issues, and has > anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages? > > Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum > inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like > Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only) These are lower cost and > allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also have limited > charge and discharge current. In order to make Li+ cost effective, we > have had to reduce the storage size in half compared to lead acid. We > feel this is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to > 100%, its voltage stability, and its higher efficiency. > > All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted territory. > We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not be functional > in 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid batteries. We use HUP > batteries for most larger off grid systems, but these are not feasible > because of their size and maintenance requirements. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 19:59:49 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 14:59:49 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: References: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> <36F52171-B670-4644-95AB-1C1614910408@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches With all the size limitations of solaredge and even the SMA system, Outback with the Blue ion has been a very good solution and considering the programability and DC coupling, Outback just works better. If AGM is your thing go with Unigee ll, there is alot more work putting it together but will last many years too. Jerry On Feb 19, 2018 2:31 PM, "Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar" wrote: > If he does not I do. I think I remember reading HALT testing to get the > years. LG claims 6000 cycles at 10% where they shut down. They > wanted me to become a dealer but I would rather buy from AEE or Soligent > and let them deal with sales tax and duty. The Blue color was a bit weird > and the new model is looks more mainstream/commercial. --Dave > > > > Hi Kirpal, > > > > “...8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of > > discharge…†> > I saw that on their website but there is no substantiating data from real > > cycle life tests. When Sony introduced this battery, they claimed 2000 > > cycles at 80% DoD. For such an extraordinary claim, there must be a > catch. > > Do you have any information about testing or a copy of their warranty? > > > > > > Larry Crutcher > > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 19, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Kirpal wrote: > > > > Blue Planet - Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are a good option for off > > grid and work very well with the Outback Radian inverters. They are > rated > > at 8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge > > and can be monitored remotely. The batteries , like in the Sonnen system > > are made by Sony. > > The company was just down in PR doing some installs and had some very > good > > feedback from local installers. > > One more option for the tool bag. > > Also, Outback just released a white paper on AC coupling using a solid > > state relay into the Radian. So they are now providing some guidance on > > this as of just recently. I still prefer DC coupling with grid tied mode > > when the grid does come back around. > > > > > > > > Sunny Regards, > > Kirpal Khalsa > > Oregon LRT#25 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > Oregon Solarworks LLC > > www.oregonsolarworks.com > > 541-299-0402 > > > > On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Ray > > wrote: > > Greetings Wrenches; > > > > We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will > > eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to > > operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more. What is > > everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup? I've worked with > > the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard > > the Storedge is not a good off grid option. What are the issues, and has > > anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages? > > > > Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum > > inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like > > Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only) These are lower cost and > > allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also have limited > > charge and discharge current. In order to make Li+ cost effective, we > > have had to reduce the storage size in half compared to lead acid. We > > feel this is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to > > 100%, its voltage stability, and its higher efficiency. > > > > All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted territory. > > We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not be functional > > in 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid batteries. We use HUP > > batteries for most larger off grid systems, but these are not feasible > > because of their size and maintenance requirements. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ray Walters > > > > Remote Solar > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > org/maillist.html> > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Tue Feb 20 11:02:37 2018 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 08:02:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: <36F52171-B670-4644-95AB-1C1614910408@starlightsolar.com> References: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> <36F52171-B670-4644-95AB-1C1614910408@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Larry....yes those are big claims (8000 cyclces at 100% DOD!) No I don't have the data showing that, nor have I seen it. But the marketing has to be accurate right?! We have installed a few systems with a few more on the books including one at our office. Will be interesting to see if the real world matches the lab tests....I don't have a copy of their warranty but it is for 15 years and does allow for some degradation of capacity, 70% remaining after 15 years. Pretty robust for a battery warranty! From what I have seen they are a strong off grid option. Could be one of the last battery banks some of our customers ever buy. The visibility into cycle count and remaining capacity is refreshing after using various amp hour meters which tend to wander in accuracy over time. I am looking forward to the migration away from Lead Acid in the years ahead! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Hi Kirpal, > > “...8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge…” > I saw that on their website but there is no substantiating data from real > cycle life tests. When Sony introduced this battery, they claimed 2000 > cycles at 80% DoD. For such an extraordinary claim, there must be a catch. > Do you have any information about testing or a copy of their warranty? > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > On Feb 19, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Kirpal wrote: > > Blue Planet - Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are a good option for off > grid and work very well with the Outback Radian inverters. They are rated > at 8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge and > can be monitored remotely. The batteries , like in the Sonnen system are > made by Sony. > The company was just down in PR doing some installs and had some very good > feedback from local installers. > One more option for the tool bag. > Also, Outback just released a white paper on AC coupling using a solid > state relay into the Radian. So they are now providing some guidance on > this as of just recently. I still prefer DC coupling with grid tied mode > when the grid does come back around. > > > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 <(541)%20299-0402> > > On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Ray wrote: > >> Greetings Wrenches; >> >> We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will >> eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to >> operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more. What is >> everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup? I've worked with >> the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard the >> Storedge is not a good off grid option. What are the issues, and has >> anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages? >> >> Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum >> inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like >> Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only) These are lower cost and >> allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also have limited >> charge and discharge current. In order to make Li+ cost effective, we have >> had to reduce the storage size in half compared to lead acid. We feel this >> is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to 100%, its >> voltage stability, and its higher efficiency. >> >> All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted >> territory. We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not be >> functional in 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid batteries. We >> use HUP batteries for most larger off grid systems, but these are not >> feasible because of their size and maintenance requirements. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ray Walters >> >> Remote Solar >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Tue Feb 20 11:23:49 2018 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 11:23:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: References: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> Message-ID: <003301d3aa67$31257c50$937074f0$@dovetailsolar.com> Dave, Do you have a document that indicates the LG Chem is not warrantied when in off-grid use? I've been looking for this exact document with no luck. Also you stated the 48V is not covered, would that also mean the 400V versions is also not covered? I have a client that is trying to specify components for an off grid system, because his online research says that those are the products he wants. Never a good sign, but we're used to it here with a lot of retired professors, you just have to take some time to show them your reasons for not doing what they want and they usually come around. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Monday, February 19, 2018 2:46 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico LG has decided not to allow their 48V batteries to be used for offgrid. The 400V LG and Solar edge is too small to be useful for offgrid in my opinion and no warranty. I would add Discover battery to your LFP list. They communicate by canbus and Xanbus to Schneider XW and CSW gear. It is too bad about LG (or Tesla) as they were light and not too expensive Lithium type NMC chemistry. The other LFP Chemistry is much heavier and around $1,000 a usable KWH, or 4 times flooded LA. A hard sell at this time. I still am running the LG RESU10 XW power system and I attached a screen shot of how nice the Engineers at Schneider did making a simple power display with all the Offgrid data. I left out the Generator display as we do not need one here in the California Sierras. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Greetings Wrenches; > > We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will > eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to > operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more.  What > is everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup?  I've > worked with the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, > but I've heard the Storedge is not a good off grid option.  What are > the issues, and has anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages? > > Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum > inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, > like Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only)  These are lower > cost and allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also > have limited charge and discharge current.  In order to make Li+ cost > effective, we have had to reduce the storage size in half compared to > lead acid.  We feel this is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to > be discharged to 100%, its voltage stability, and its higher efficiency. > > All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted > territory.  We just don't want to set up systems that are going to > not be functional in 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid > batteries.  We use HUP batteries for most larger off grid systems, > but these are not feasible because of their size and maintenance requirements. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From toddcory at finestplanet.com Tue Feb 20 11:41:05 2018 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 08:41:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: References: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> <36F52171-B670-4644-95AB-1C1614910408@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <1519144865.930417844@email.finestplanet.com> " I am looking forward to the migration away from Lead Acid in the years ahead! " i gotta reply (off list) to this. as i have said before, i LOVE my flooded lead calcium wet cells. no, they aren't sexy li-ons, but they are proven technology for my grid-tied with battery backup application. this is what the telecom and industrial hydro plants have been using for ever. i should easily get 20+ years out of these. (the used set i got from our hydro plant went 30). i eq every 6 months, i add water (about 20 ml/ cell) every other year. their self discharge is around 1 kWh/month and they just sit there waiting for an outage. the only issue is these are not designed for a lot of cycling, which in a grid tied application they won't be doing much of. our grid outages are just a couple of times a year, usually during the kick-ass winter storms we (used to) get. i guess i am an old fart who doesn't always think newer and more high tech is better and i hope to still be able to get another set of these in ~20 years... if i am still alive! :) todd On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 8:02am, "Kirpal" said: Larry....yes those are big claims (8000 cyclces at 100% DOD!) No I don't have the data showing that, nor have I seen it. But the marketing has to be accurate right?! We have installed a few systems with a few more on the books including one at our office. Will be interesting to see if the real world matches the lab tests....I don't have a copy of their warranty but it is for 15 years and does allow for some degradation of capacity, 70% remaining after 15 years. Pretty robust for a battery warranty! From what I have seen they are a strong off grid option. Could be one of the last battery banks some of our customers ever buy. The visibility into cycle count and remaining capacity is refreshing after using various amp hour meters which tend to wander in accuracy over time. I am looking forward to the migration away from Lead Acid in the years ahead! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC [ www.oregonsolarworks.com ]( http://www.oregonsolarworks.com ) 541-299-0402 On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems <[ larry at starlightsolar.com ]( mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com )> wrote: Hi Kirpal, “...8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge…” I saw that on their website but there is no substantiating data from real cycle life tests. When Sony introduced this battery, they claimed 2000 cycles at 80% DoD. For such an extraordinary claim, there must be a catch. Do you have any information about testing or a copy of their warranty? Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 19, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Kirpal <[ solarworks at gmail.com ]( mailto:solarworks at gmail.com )> wrote: Blue Planet - Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are a good option for off grid and work very well with the Outback Radian inverters. They are rated at 8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge and can be monitored remotely. The batteries , like in the Sonnen system are made by Sony. The company was just down in PR doing some installs and had some very good feedback from local installers. One more option for the tool bag. Also, Outback just released a white paper on AC coupling using a solid state relay into the Radian. So they are now providing some guidance on this as of just recently. I still prefer DC coupling with grid tied mode when the grid does come back around. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC [ www.oregonsolarworks.com ]( http://www.oregonsolarworks.com/ ) [ 541-299-0402 ]( tel:(541)%20299-0402 ) On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Ray <[ ray at solarray.com ]( mailto:ray at solarray.com )> wrote: Greetings Wrenches; We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more. What is everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup? I've worked with the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard the Storedge is not a good off grid option. What are the issues, and has anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages? Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only) These are lower cost and allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also have limited charge and discharge current. In order to make Li+ cost effective, we have had to reduce the storage size in half compared to lead acid. We feel this is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to 100%, its voltage stability, and its higher efficiency. All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted territory. We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not be functional in 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid batteries. We use HUP batteries for most larger off grid systems, but these are not feasible because of their size and maintenance requirements. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ) List rules & etiquette: [ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ ) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ) List rules & etiquette: [ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ) List rules & etiquette: [ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Feb 20 12:09:14 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 10:09:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: References: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> <36F52171-B670-4644-95AB-1C1614910408@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <5E8D1217-5F75-45AF-9693-9357D45517DA@starlightsolar.com> Test data is important. If you check out most Li battery brands, they copy each other: “2000 cycles with 80% remaining.” Like Clara Peller said in 1984, “ Where’s the beef?” One brand of Li battery that we sell, LiFeBlue, has published actual test data for their cells (Topband). At 1C rate and 100% DoD, they produced over 2800 cycles and had 83% remaining capacity. Extrapolate to 8000 cycles and that would mean 48.5% remaining capacity if degradation remained linear. However, we are in fantasy land here due to the unknown affects of battery aging on one hand and the fact that no one will use a battery like that on the other. Besides, in a decade or so, will Li-ion battery cost make lead batteries a relic? IMO, lead is dead…or at least dying…slowly. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 20, 2018, at 9:02 AM, Kirpal wrote: Larry....yes those are big claims (8000 cyclces at 100% DOD!) No I don't have the data showing that, nor have I seen it. But the marketing has to be accurate right?! We have installed a few systems with a few more on the books including one at our office. Will be interesting to see if the real world matches the lab tests....I don't have a copy of their warranty but it is for 15 years and does allow for some degradation of capacity, 70% remaining after 15 years. Pretty robust for a battery warranty! From what I have seen they are a strong off grid option. Could be one of the last battery banks some of our customers ever buy. The visibility into cycle count and remaining capacity is refreshing after using various amp hour meters which tend to wander in accuracy over time. I am looking forward to the migration away from Lead Acid in the years ahead! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Feb 20 12:53:44 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 09:53:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: <5E8D1217-5F75-45AF-9693-9357D45517DA@starlightsolar.com> References: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> <36F52171-B670-4644-95AB-1C1614910408@starlightsolar.com> <5E8D1217-5F75-45AF-9693-9357D45517DA@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Test data is almost as important as will the company will still be there! That is why I was unhappy that LG Chem (huge company) has decided not to be a player for Offgrid. Oh well! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Test data is important. If you check out most Li battery brands, they copy > each other: “2000 cycles with 80% remaining.” Like Clara Peller said > in 1984, “ Where’s the beef?” > > One brand of Li battery that we sell, LiFeBlue, has published actual test > data for their cells (Topband). At 1C rate and 100% DoD, they produced > over 2800 cycles and had 83% remaining capacity. Extrapolate to 8000 > cycles and that would mean 48.5% remaining capacity if degradation > remained linear. However, we are in fantasy land here due to the unknown > affects of battery aging on one hand and the fact that no one will use a > battery like that on the other. Besides, in a decade or so, will Li-ion > battery cost make lead batteries a relic? > > IMO, lead is dead…or at least dying…slowly. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Feb 20, 2018, at 9:02 AM, Kirpal wrote: > > Larry....yes those are big claims (8000 cyclces at 100% DOD!) No I don't > have the data showing that, nor have I seen it. But the marketing has to > be accurate right?! We have installed a few systems with a few more on > the books including one at our office. Will be interesting to see if the > real world matches the lab tests....I don't have a copy of their warranty > but it is for 15 years and does allow for some degradation of capacity, > 70% remaining after 15 years. Pretty robust for a battery warranty! From > what I have seen they are a strong off grid option. Could be one of the > last battery banks some of our customers ever buy. The visibility into > cycle count and remaining capacity is refreshing after using various amp > hour meters which tend to wander in accuracy over time. I am looking > forward to the migration away from Lead Acid in the years ahead! > > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402_______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From lee.bristol at globalsolace.org Tue Feb 20 21:14:15 2018 From: lee.bristol at globalsolace.org (Lee Bristol) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:14:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> References: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> Message-ID: Looks like your choice of LiFe Blue is a good one! Lee Bristol Executive Director NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Global Solace Inc 20530 Beallsville Road Beallsville, MD 20839 (301) 972-8672 (240) 479-1510 (c) lee.bristol at globalsolace.org www.globalsolace.org On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 2:14 PM, Ray wrote: > Greetings Wrenches; > > We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will > eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to > operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more. What is > everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup? I've worked with > the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard the > Storedge is not a good off grid option. What are the issues, and has > anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages? > > Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum > inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like > Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only) These are lower cost and > allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also have limited > charge and discharge current. In order to make Li+ cost effective, we have > had to reduce the storage size in half compared to lead acid. We feel this > is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to 100%, its > voltage stability, and its higher efficiency. > > All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted territory. > We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not be functional in > 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid batteries. We use HUP > batteries for most larger off grid systems, but these are not feasible > because of their size and maintenance requirements. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Feb 21 00:59:08 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 19:59:08 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: References: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> <36F52171-B670-4644-95AB-1C1614910408@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches We have been doing testing on the Blue Ion over the last several months, we have been using PV, back up grid connected charger, we have CT's on DC in, PV in, Charger in, and Load out, some days we push to three cycles a day, other days 1/2 cycle. The Blue Ion BMU has done well keeping everything in control including a relay for the charger. Eguage has done all the monitoring and has some impressive data. Jerry On Feb 20, 2018 6:02 AM, "Kirpal" wrote: > Larry....yes those are big claims (8000 cyclces at 100% DOD!) No I don't > have the data showing that, nor have I seen it. But the marketing has to > be accurate right?! We have installed a few systems with a few more on the > books including one at our office. Will be interesting to see if the real > world matches the lab tests....I don't have a copy of their warranty but it > is for 15 years and does allow for some degradation of capacity, 70% > remaining after 15 years. Pretty robust for a battery warranty! From what > I have seen they are a strong off grid option. Could be one of the last > battery banks some of our customers ever buy. The visibility into cycle > count and remaining capacity is refreshing after using various amp hour > meters which tend to wander in accuracy over time. I am looking forward to > the migration away from Lead Acid in the years ahead! > > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 <(541)%20299-0402> > > On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < > larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > >> Hi Kirpal, >> >> “...8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of >> discharge…” >> I saw that on their website but there is no substantiating data from real >> cycle life tests. When Sony introduced this battery, they claimed 2000 >> cycles at 80% DoD. For such an extraordinary claim, there must be a catch. >> Do you have any information about testing or a copy of their warranty? >> >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 19, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Kirpal wrote: >> >> Blue Planet - Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are a good option for off >> grid and work very well with the Outback Radian inverters. They are rated >> at 8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge and >> can be monitored remotely. The batteries , like in the Sonnen system are >> made by Sony. >> The company was just down in PR doing some installs and had some very >> good feedback from local installers. >> One more option for the tool bag. >> Also, Outback just released a white paper on AC coupling using a solid >> state relay into the Radian. So they are now providing some guidance on >> this as of just recently. I still prefer DC coupling with grid tied mode >> when the grid does come back around. >> >> >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon LRT#25 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-299-0402 <(541)%20299-0402> >> >> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Ray wrote: >> >>> Greetings Wrenches; >>> >>> We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will >>> eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to >>> operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more. What is >>> everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup? I've worked with >>> the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard the >>> Storedge is not a good off grid option. What are the issues, and has >>> anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages? >>> >>> Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum >>> inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like >>> Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only) These are lower cost and >>> allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also have limited >>> charge and discharge current. In order to make Li+ cost effective, we have >>> had to reduce the storage size in half compared to lead acid. We feel this >>> is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to 100%, its >>> voltage stability, and its higher efficiency. >>> >>> All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted >>> territory. We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not be >>> functional in 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid batteries. We >>> use HUP batteries for most larger off grid systems, but these are not >>> feasible because of their size and maintenance requirements. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> >>> Remote Solar >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Feb 21 10:00:43 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 08:00:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] B3 Bypass breaker Message-ID: <001301d3ab24$c7d12060$57736120$@solarwork.com> Has anyone used the B3 buss-bar bypass breaker setup yet? www.qfe002.com Were there any permitting issues? I am running the tech sheet & compliance pages by our permitting examiners here in Idaho. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Feb 21 15:12:49 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 10:12:49 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] B3 Bypass breaker In-Reply-To: <001301d3ab24$c7d12060$57736120$@solarwork.com> References: <001301d3ab24$c7d12060$57736120$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: We tried several times but they (B3) were never able to produce, are they available yet, l saw them at SPI Dallas years back. Jerry On Feb 21, 2018 6:37 AM, "Dana" wrote: > Has anyone used the B3 buss-bar bypass breaker setup yet? www.qfe002.com > > Were there any permitting issues? > > I am running the tech sheet & compliance pages by our permitting examiners > here in Idaho. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 <(208)%20721-7003> > dana at solarwork.com * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Feb 21 15:28:55 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 14:28:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: References: <5cc59883-d542-66e2-f775-0a5ad9ea2c38@solarray.com> <36F52171-B670-4644-95AB-1C1614910408@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Jerry, can we see the egauge results? On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 11:59 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > We have been doing testing on the Blue Ion over the last several months, > we have been using PV, back up grid connected charger, we have CT's on DC > in, PV in, Charger in, and Load out, some days we push to three cycles a > day, other days 1/2 cycle. The Blue Ion BMU has done well keeping > everything in control including a relay for the charger. Eguage has done > all the monitoring and has some impressive data. > Jerry > > On Feb 20, 2018 6:02 AM, "Kirpal" wrote: > >> Larry....yes those are big claims (8000 cyclces at 100% DOD!) No I don't >> have the data showing that, nor have I seen it. But the marketing has to >> be accurate right?! We have installed a few systems with a few more on the >> books including one at our office. Will be interesting to see if the real >> world matches the lab tests....I don't have a copy of their warranty but it >> is for 15 years and does allow for some degradation of capacity, 70% >> remaining after 15 years. Pretty robust for a battery warranty! From what >> I have seen they are a strong off grid option. Could be one of the last >> battery banks some of our customers ever buy. The visibility into cycle >> count and remaining capacity is refreshing after using various amp hour >> meters which tend to wander in accuracy over time. I am looking forward to >> the migration away from Lead Acid in the years ahead! >> >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon LRT#25 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-299-0402 <(541)%20299-0402> >> >> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < >> larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Kirpal, >>> >>> “...8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of >>> discharge…” >>> I saw that on their website but there is no substantiating data from >>> real cycle life tests. When Sony introduced this battery, they claimed >>> 2000 cycles at 80% DoD. For such an extraordinary claim, there must be a >>> catch. Do you have any information about testing or a copy of their >>> warranty? >>> >>> >>> Larry Crutcher >>> Starlight Solar Power Systems >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Feb 19, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Kirpal wrote: >>> >>> Blue Planet - Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are a good option for off >>> grid and work very well with the Outback Radian inverters. They are rated >>> at 8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge and >>> can be monitored remotely. The batteries , like in the Sonnen system are >>> made by Sony. >>> The company was just down in PR doing some installs and had some very >>> good feedback from local installers. >>> One more option for the tool bag. >>> Also, Outback just released a white paper on AC coupling using a solid >>> state relay into the Radian. So they are now providing some guidance on >>> this as of just recently. I still prefer DC coupling with grid tied mode >>> when the grid does come back around. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sunny Regards, >>> Kirpal Khalsa >>> Oregon LRT#25 >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>> www.oregonsolarworks.com >>> 541-299-0402 <(541)%20299-0402> >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Ray wrote: >>> >>>> Greetings Wrenches; >>>> >>>> We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will >>>> eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to >>>> operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more. What is >>>> everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup? I've worked with >>>> the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, but I've heard the >>>> Storedge is not a good off grid option. What are the issues, and has >>>> anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages? >>>> >>>> Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum >>>> inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, like >>>> Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only) These are lower cost and >>>> allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also have limited >>>> charge and discharge current. In order to make Li+ cost effective, we have >>>> had to reduce the storage size in half compared to lead acid. We feel this >>>> is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to be discharged to 100%, its >>>> voltage stability, and its higher efficiency. >>>> >>>> All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted >>>> territory. We just don't want to set up systems that are going to not be >>>> functional in 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid batteries. We >>>> use HUP batteries for most larger off grid systems, but these are not >>>> feasible because of their size and maintenance requirements. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> >>>> Remote Solar >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Feb 21 17:42:46 2018 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 16:42:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] B3 Bypass breaker In-Reply-To: References: <001301d3ab24$c7d12060$57736120$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <01e601d3ab65$4b6938f0$e23baad0$@solarcentex.com> I just tried calling because anything that helps me on 120% challenges is a top priority with me. Just got a voice recorder with no identification and elevator music…I suspect the cheesy video at the website with people swimming in the ocean but no view of the installed product never helped investors! Howard “Scot” Arey 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 2:13 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] B3 Bypass breaker We tried several times but they (B3) were never able to produce, are they available yet, l saw them at SPI Dallas years back. Jerry On Feb 21, 2018 6:37 AM, "Dana" > wrote: Has anyone used the B3 buss-bar bypass breaker setup yet? www.qfe002.com Were there any permitting issues? I am running the tech sheet & compliance pages by our permitting examiners here in Idaho. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 48462 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Thu Feb 22 10:20:10 2018 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 08:20:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] B3 Bypass breaker In-Reply-To: <001301d3ab24$c7d12060$57736120$@solarwork.com> References: <001301d3ab24$c7d12060$57736120$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Dana wrote: > Has anyone used the B3 buss-bar bypass breaker setup yet? www.qfe002.com > > At SPI this year I spoke with one of their reps briefly and they indicated that after many years of trying to get the product ready it was finally going to be in production. I have researched it no further than that however. - Sam -- Sam Haraldson, Installation Manager Office: 406.551.6135 sam at onsiteenergyinc.com onsiteenergyinc.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Thu Feb 22 15:10:13 2018 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 12:10:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] B3 Bypass breaker In-Reply-To: References: <001301d3ab24$c7d12060$57736120$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: How is this different/better/less expensive than just doing a supply side tap using insulated connectors (NSI's)? >From what I can tell, it only works on panels that are fed with wire conductors from the meter not hard bussing, so why not just tap it? On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 7:20 AM, Sam Haraldson wrote: > On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Dana wrote: > >> Has anyone used the B3 buss-bar bypass breaker setup yet? www.qfe002.com >> >> > At SPI this year I spoke with one of their reps briefly and they indicated > that after many years of trying to get the product ready it was finally > going to be in production. I have researched it no further than that > however. > > - Sam > > > -- > Sam Haraldson, Installation Manager > Office: 406.551.6135 <(406)%20551-6135> > sam at onsiteenergyinc.com > onsiteenergyinc.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Lorenzo Ortiz Commercial Design/Support* lorenzo at cal-solar.com* (530) 274-3671* -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Feb 22 18:54:49 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 16:54:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] B3 Bypass breaker In-Reply-To: References: <001301d3ab24$c7d12060$57736120$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <000b01d3ac38$8a76bda0$9f6438e0$@solarwork.com> Per my Master AC electrician, you do not have to arrange for a meter pull with the utility. That to me is one less piece of brain damage to deal with. I have not checked out the cost of a back fed breaker VS this item. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lorenzo Ortiz Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 1:10 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] B3 Bypass breaker How is this different/better/less expensive than just doing a supply side tap using insulated connectors (NSI's)? >From what I can tell, it only works on panels that are fed with wire conductors from the meter not hard bussing, so why not just tap it? On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 7:20 AM, Sam Haraldson > wrote: On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Dana > wrote: Has anyone used the B3 buss-bar bypass breaker setup yet? www.qfe002.com At SPI this year I spoke with one of their reps briefly and they indicated that after many years of trying to get the product ready it was finally going to be in production. I have researched it no further than that however. - Sam -- Sam Haraldson, Installation Manager Office: 406.551.6135 sam at onsiteenergyinc.com onsiteenergyinc.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Lorenzo Ortiz Commercial Design/Support lorenzo at cal-solar.com (530) 274-3671 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Feb 22 19:50:00 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:50:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] B3 Bypass breaker In-Reply-To: <000b01d3ac38$8a76bda0$9f6438e0$@solarwork.com> References: <001301d3ab24$c7d12060$57736120$@solarwork.com> <000b01d3ac38$8a76bda0$9f6438e0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <008001d3ac40$3d177bf0$b74673d0$@glbcc.com> But if you are net metering, doesn’t your utility have to replace the kWh meter anyway? Here and in NY, it is common practice for an installer to pull a meter where a supply side connection is to be made. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 6:55 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] B3 Bypass breaker Per my Master AC electrician, you do not have to arrange for a meter pull with the utility. That to me is one less piece of brain damage to deal with. I have not checked out the cost of a back fed breaker VS this item. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lorenzo Ortiz Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 1:10 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] B3 Bypass breaker How is this different/better/less expensive than just doing a supply side tap using insulated connectors (NSI's)? >From what I can tell, it only works on panels that are fed with wire conductors from the meter not hard bussing, so why not just tap it? On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 7:20 AM, Sam Haraldson > wrote: On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Dana > wrote: Has anyone used the B3 buss-bar bypass breaker setup yet? www.qfe002.com At SPI this year I spoke with one of their reps briefly and they indicated that after many years of trying to get the product ready it was finally going to be in production. I have researched it no further than that however. - Sam -- Sam Haraldson, Installation Manager Office: 406.551.6135 sam at onsiteenergyinc.com onsiteenergyinc.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Lorenzo Ortiz Commercial Design/Support lorenzo at cal-solar.com (530) 274-3671 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 20:20:45 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 17:20:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] B3 Bypass breaker In-Reply-To: <000b01d3ac38$8a76bda0$9f6438e0$@solarwork.com> References: <001301d3ab24$c7d12060$57736120$@solarwork.com> <000b01d3ac38$8a76bda0$9f6438e0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <45653380-D6CE-4348-909F-F814429BB0C5@gmail.com> This product has been out now and maybe its doing a similar thing as this not available product B3? http://connectder.com/products/ jay peltz power > On Feb 22, 2018, at 3:54 PM, Dana wrote: > > Per my Master AC electrician, you do not have to arrange for a meter pull with the utility. That to me is one less piece of brain damage to deal with. > I have not checked out the cost of a back fed breaker VS this item. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lorenzo Ortiz > Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 1:10 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] B3 Bypass breaker > > How is this different/better/less expensive than just doing a supply side tap using insulated connectors (NSI's)? > > From what I can tell, it only works on panels that are fed with wire conductors from the meter not hard bussing, so why not just tap it? > > > > On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 7:20 AM, Sam Haraldson > wrote: >> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Dana > wrote: >>> Has anyone used the B3 buss-bar bypass breaker setup yet? www.qfe002.com >> >> At SPI this year I spoke with one of their reps briefly and they indicated that after many years of trying to get the product ready it was finally going to be in production. I have researched it no further than that however. >> >> - Sam >> >> >> -- >> Sam Haraldson, Installation Manager >> Office: 406.551.6135 >> sam at onsiteenergyinc.com >> onsiteenergyinc.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 07:35:41 2018 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 12:35:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] B3 Bypass breaker In-Reply-To: <45653380-D6CE-4348-909F-F814429BB0C5@gmail.com> References: <001301d3ab24$c7d12060$57736120$@solarwork.com> <000b01d3ac38$8a76bda0$9f6438e0$@solarwork.com> <45653380-D6CE-4348-909F-F814429BB0C5@gmail.com> Message-ID: >From what I've read, the B3 is a way to use an existing breaker panel with more backfeed amps than it is rated for with a minimal effort and cost and no utility interaction/approval. The ConnectDer requires both and it's not inexpensive, although I don't know how the B3 compares since I've seen no pricing yet. Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher, LLC Solar Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 9:25 PM jay wrote: > This product has been out now and maybe its doing a similar thing as this > not available product B3? > > http://connectder.com/products/ > > > jay > > peltz power > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Feb 24 12:10:18 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:10:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian throughput power In-Reply-To: References: <001301d3ab24$c7d12060$57736120$@solarwork.com> <000b01d3ac38$8a76bda0$9f6438e0$@solarwork.com> <45653380-D6CE-4348-909F-F814429BB0C5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <10ff9e9d-eb05-7ad5-bad0-d962584d7fbc@psln.com> Wrenches,             I spoke with tech support at Outback recently and was told the max output of the Radian at the output terminals is 8KW, even if there is an external AC source connected to one of the AC IN terminals of the Radian.             However, on page 18 of the GS8048 manual:  "When it (transfer relay) closes the L1 input and output terminals become electrically common."  ...same for L2 input and output. then, "the relay contacts are limited to 55 amps per phase or leg".  Since there is no 55 amp circuit breaker to protect that relay a 50 amp 2 pole breaker would be used.  This means you would have 50A X 240 Vac (12KW) at the output terminals, correct?             Am I missing something?  Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Feb 24 12:15:37 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:15:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian throughput power In-Reply-To: <10ff9e9d-eb05-7ad5-bad0-d962584d7fbc@psln.com> References: <001301d3ab24$c7d12060$57736120$@solarwork.com> <000b01d3ac38$8a76bda0$9f6438e0$@solarwork.com> <45653380-D6CE-4348-909F-F814429BB0C5@gmail.com> <10ff9e9d-eb05-7ad5-bad0-d962584d7fbc@psln.com> Message-ID: <5e06f70b93d6471a43713190770eb279.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> You are missing the charging of the battery! That is where (your numbers) the 12KW - 8KW can go! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Wrenches, > >             I spoke with tech support at Outback recently and > was told > the max output of the Radian at the output terminals is 8KW, even if > there is an external AC source connected to one of the AC IN terminals > of the Radian. > >             However, on page 18 of the GS8048 manual:  "When it > (transfer relay) closes the L1 input and output terminals become > electrically common."  ...same for L2 input and output. then, "the relay > contacts are limited to 55 amps per phase or leg".  Since there is no 55 > amp circuit breaker to protect that relay a 50 amp 2 pole breaker would > be used.  This means you would have 50A X 240 Vac (12KW) at the output > terminals, correct? > >             Am I missing something?  Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From ltuss at outbackpower.com Sat Feb 24 14:15:10 2018 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 19:15:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian throughput power In-Reply-To: <5e06f70b93d6471a43713190770eb279.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <001301d3ab24$c7d12060$57736120$@solarwork.com> <000b01d3ac38$8a76bda0$9f6438e0$@solarwork.com> <45653380-D6CE-4348-909F-F814429BB0C5@gmail.com> <10ff9e9d-eb05-7ad5-bad0-d962584d7fbc@psln.com> <5e06f70b93d6471a43713190770eb279.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <1aa4b328853448d18d1cbdaf9a69e910@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello Lones here. When an ac source is accepted by the inverter. The rely connects the ac input directly to the ac output. The relay is (should be) protected by a 50 amp breaker If there is an ac load of 8KW or 33 ac amps the remaining current is available to be used by the inverter for battery charging. If the load increases above 8k charging is reduced to honor the loads first. If the loads chew up all 50 amps charging will be reduced to zero. Above 50 and the breaker should trip or damage to the relay may result. It is possible to use Support Mode. This sets a limit on the amount of current passing through from the source to the loads. Any amount above the set point will be supplied from the batteries. If the ac input current is set to 25 ac amps. Any load above the 25 amps will come from the batteries. Sustained loads above this adjustable set point could possibly deplete the batteries. If the load drops below the 25amp charging will resume. It is possible have an ac source and deplete the batteries. Loads first Charging 2nd. I hope this helps. Take Care All -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 9:16 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian throughput power You are missing the charging of the battery! That is where (your numbers) the 12KW - 8KW can go! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Wrenches, > >             I spoke with tech support at Outback recently > and was told the max output of the Radian at the output terminals is > 8KW, even if there is an external AC source connected to one of the AC > IN terminals of the Radian. > >             However, on page 18 of the GS8048 manual:  > "When it (transfer relay) closes the L1 input and output terminals > become electrically common."  ...same for L2 input and output. then, > "the relay contacts are limited to 55 amps per phase or leg".  Since > there is no 55 amp circuit breaker to protect that relay a 50 amp 2 > pole breaker would be used.  This means you would have 50A X 240 Vac > (12KW) at the output terminals, correct? > >             Am I missing something?  Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Sat Feb 24 19:05:33 2018 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 00:05:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Testing AGMs Message-ID: Wrenches, We have a client with a string of sealed L16s and he believes he may have a weak or failed cell. What’s the best way to test or check these batteries, since there is no electrolyte to draw out. We don’t install many AGMs, in fact, steer the client away from them, usually. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation And Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Feb 24 19:20:39 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:20:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Testing AGMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Load test and compare with another known good battery. I also steer away from AGM's. --Dave > Wrenches, > We have a client with a string of sealed L16s and he believes he may have > a weak or failed cell. > > What’s the best way to test or check these batteries, since there is no > electrolyte to draw out. > > We don’t install many AGMs, in fact, steer the client away from them, > usually. > > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation And > Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From ray at solarray.com Sat Feb 24 23:14:52 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 21:14:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Testing AGMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7177a15e-2648-6798-0aeb-871d53376d5d@solarray.com> I agree, I usually steer full time off grid customers away from AGM, but for remote sites that might not be attended for months at a time, AGMs do have a purpose.  We've had good luck with Full River. Load testing is one really long way to test; I usually just have the customer do load testing with the system and the Trimetric or other SOC meter.  Run a good charge cycle, then turn off the solar for a couple of days, and see what kind of capacity is left.  Also always good to check voltages of all the batteries, and see if there are weak or dead cells.  Dead cells show up pretty easily, they will test 1.5 to 2 volts lower. My latest toy purchase was a FLIR camera, it has been extremely helpful.  You can literally see the dead cells within the packs. They show up noticeably warmer than surrounding cells.  If you see anything like that, you know the pack is probably toast.  Finally, a really good test is how old they are.  If they are rated at 300 cycles to 80% DOD battery and they are 5 years old, they're probably gone as well.  Most AGMs do not have long cycle lives. Folks don't call to complain about batteries unless they're not working right.  I listen to my customers; they know better than anyone when the system isn't working the same, and after checking for new loads, and proper charge settings, its almost always batteries. Ray Remote Solar On 2/24/18 5:20 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > Load test and compare with another known good battery. I also steer away > from AGM's. --Dave >> Wrenches, >> We have a client with a string of sealed L16s and he believes he may have >> a weak or failed cell. >> >> What’s the best way to test or check these batteries, since there is no >> electrolyte to draw out. >> >> We don’t install many AGMs, in fact, steer the client away from them, >> usually. >> >> >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation And >> Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1463 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dduffield at me.com Sun Feb 25 05:11:59 2018 From: dduffield at me.com (Daniel Duffield) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 03:11:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery tester, Vol 11, issue 68 Message-ID: The tester for battery banks I have used for many years is somewhat pricey, but well worth it, since reserve battery banks are the single item in most stand-alone that are most difficult to quantify and now storage is finding is inevitable way into grid connected PV systems. The unit I would recommend is called, Mid-Tronics CTU 6000 Celltron Ultra stationary battery tester. This unit was first introduced to me, when I travelled around New Mexico and serviced Mitsubishi (zero transfer time) 3 phase Uninterruptible Power Supplies, powered by either 30 - 12 volt batteries wired in series or 40. These are lethal dc voltages, but these unit also work on 12, 24 or 48 system. These units perform something like an impedance test, actually a conductance test - mhos. They record data sets on an SD card and you can immediately print out the results on site. I have used these to test hundreds of GNB-Absolyte VRLA AGM batteries over the years. The have other benefits- which I won’t get into detail here, but they are worth investigating, if you want details. I took my time and found a good unit, at a decent price on eBay from a re-seller with a good feedback rating. They come with some of the major battery type reference cell values within the unit for comparison of you can add a value yourself after consulting the specific battery type your testing from the mfg. The only limitation is - this is a cell tester and when testing you need physical access to the individual cells to place the testing probes upon. Most large amp-hour banks are made up of as few parallel strings as possible- which leads battery designers to produce batteries with progressively large amp- hour 2volt cells, whose terminals are directly accessible via bus work. If you have a 6 volt/12 volt building block, like a L-16 or a 12-volt group 30 footprint type battery- you can’t measure the individual cells within. If you have a very large number of banks to test, you place your probes on the 2 volt cell terminals and wait for an audible beep, prior to moving on to the next successive cell in your string. In this manner you and be accurate and fast These work very well at finding issues and indicating how relatively close or far away the measured conductance value is from a known good value. Thanks, Daniel O. Duffield, NM EE98, NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional. IEEE member. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Feb 25 09:40:30 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 07:40:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Testing AGMs In-Reply-To: <7177a15e-2648-6798-0aeb-871d53376d5d@solarray.com> References: <7177a15e-2648-6798-0aeb-871d53376d5d@solarray.com> Message-ID: I second Ray on the FLIR, photo attached. At $250 for the smartphone variety, it's affordable. My last two service calls were both failed battery banks thanks to older charge controllers, including Trace. The relay fails, but the green light is still lit, so the customer thinks everything is fine when in fact the system isn't charging. I always spec a CC with a digital display now. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:14 PM, Ray wrote: > I agree, I usually steer full time off grid customers away from AGM, but > for remote sites that might not be attended for months at a time, AGMs do > have a purpose. We've had good luck with Full River. Load testing is one > really long way to test; I usually just have the customer do load testing > with the system and the Trimetric or other SOC meter. Run a good charge > cycle, then turn off the solar for a couple of days, and see what kind of > capacity is left. Also always good to check voltages of all the batteries, > and see if there are weak or dead cells. Dead cells show up pretty easily, > they will test 1.5 to 2 volts lower. > > My latest toy purchase was a FLIR camera, it has been extremely helpful. > You can literally see the dead cells within the packs. They show up > noticeably warmer than surrounding cells. If you see anything like that, > you know the pack is probably toast. Finally, a really good test is how > old they are. If they are rated at 300 cycles to 80% DOD battery and they > are 5 years old, they're probably gone as well. Most AGMs do not have long > cycle lives. Folks don't call to complain about batteries unless they're > not working right. I listen to my customers; they know better than anyone > when the system isn't working the same, and after checking for new loads, > and proper charge settings, its almost always batteries. > > Ray > > Remote Solar > > > > > On 2/24/18 5:20 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > >> Load test and compare with another known good battery. I also steer away >> from AGM's. --Dave >> >>> Wrenches, >>> We have a client with a string of sealed L16s and he believes he may have >>> a weak or failed cell. >>> >>> What’s the best way to test or check these batteries, since there is no >>> electrolyte to draw out. >>> >>> We don’t install many AGMs, in fact, steer the client away from them, >>> usually. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> Solar Installation And >>> Design Expert >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1463 M St >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or >>> g/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img_thermal_1500658028018.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 663946 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Feb 25 19:49:08 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 16:49:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] small 10kw diesel generators Message-ID: <6A6A0946-BA37-4686-9B63-23F009E40AD9@gmail.com> HI All, I”m possibly in the market for a small 9-12kw diesel generator. With enclosure and set up for auto start. I’ve been looking at the Onan RV diesel sets. Cummins Onan QD 10.0 Diesel RV Generator | 10.0HDKCA-11506 Is 1800 rpm, water cooled, sound enclosure etc, for around $10,000 and fits the fill pretty well. Are there any others or does anyone have anything to say about these models from Onan? thanks jay peltz power -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Feb 26 11:09:44 2018 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:09:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] small 10kw diesel generators In-Reply-To: <6A6A0946-BA37-4686-9B63-23F009E40AD9@gmail.com> References: <6A6A0946-BA37-4686-9B63-23F009E40AD9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <03DFD5EC-2FA7-4129-842E-284C6B7BCDFE@gmail.com> Jay, Much like the Onan/Cummins propane RV gensets, the diesel units draw cooling air from below, and the exhaust exits either below or to the bottom side. I service a repeater site that utilizes the model you describe and it sits on pretty beefy stand. I’ve also seen many of the propane models that sit on a table or stand. My opinion is that they are great for coaches and RVs, but there are better choices out there for stationary gensets. We’ve had really good luck with the Aurora 9kws, having installed a couple dozen so far. The Dynagen controller is highly configurable and the I think the little Perkins is a sweet runner, even though I’m not a Perkins fan. Michael > On Feb 25, 2018, at 4:49 PM, jay wrote: > > Cummins Onan QD 10.0 Diesel RV Generator | 10.0HDKCA-11506 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Mon Feb 26 11:56:27 2018 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank Message-ID: <006101d3af22$be483b30$3ad8b190$@dovetailsolar.com> Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all. The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now considering changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium battery bank before the next winter. I looked into this, as we have been eying the various lithium options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the bullet and really designed a bank into a system. The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not occupied during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the unconditioned, but attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system and shut off all breakers except the ones that power the internet, chest freezer, and security system. As such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, sometimes staying there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with AGM's, within reason. The battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, where the site has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the AGMs likely produce more heat during a charge than lithium's, and they have significantly more thermal mass to ride through the really cold nights. Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing during storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the thought was to provide an insulated battery box, and design in some small heating system that is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a low power fiberglass heating pad like is sometimes used for livestock to give them a slightly warmed place to lay down. Then tie that to a thermostat with a sensor on the battery bank. I would of course need to try to account for the extra load in the battery bank sizing. They array is more than is needed right now so I do not worry about it's ability to compensate when the sun is shining. In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the insulated enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the batteries getting too hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one point in Aug 2016. But with the lower internal resistance of the lithium's, maybe this is less likely to be an issue. Do any of you wrenches have any experience with this unconditioned setup? With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Feb 26 12:14:08 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:14:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <006101d3af22$be483b30$3ad8b190$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <006101d3af22$be483b30$3ad8b190$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: <331D114F-2307-47FF-AEC5-1C97CD68403B@starlightsolar.com> Hi Daniel, Charging a Li battery below freezing can damage the battery very quickly. Low current, C.05 rate, can be used until cell temperature is above freezing but that can be hard to setup and control. You can store or discharge most Li batteries down to about -5°F. Unless you are using very high current, 1C or more, for long times, the battery temp. will rise very little. Same applies to charging, keeping the rate low will not cause a heat issue. Your best option is build a battery box, insulate and heat it. Very simple with DC silicone heaters. A well insulated box is the key to low power consumption. Make the box so you can vent for summer use. Silicone heaters: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2057872.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC6.A0.H0.XSilicone+Heater+Flexible+Pad+.TRS5&_nkw=Silicone+Heater+Flexible+Pad+&_sacat=0 Temp controller: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-STC-1000-All-Purpose-Temperature-Controller-Thermostat-With-Sensor-D/112145401355?hash=item1a1c63060b:m:mpDAMY9SK0sPRVsidEQ682w Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 26, 2018, at 9:56 AM, Daniel Young wrote: Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all. The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now considering changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium battery bank before the next winter. I looked into this, as we have been eying the various lithium options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the bullet and really designed a bank into a system. The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not occupied during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the unconditioned, but attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system and shut off all breakers except the ones that power the internet, chest freezer, and security system. As such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, sometimes staying there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with AGM’s, within reason. The battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, where the site has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the AGMs likely produce more heat during a charge than lithium’s, and they have significantly more thermal mass to ride through the really cold nights. Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing during storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the thought was to provide an insulated battery box, and design in some small heating system that is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a low power fiberglass heating pad like is sometimes used for livestock to give them a slightly warmed place to lay down. Then tie that to a thermostat with a sensor on the battery bank. I would of course need to try to account for the extra load in the battery bank sizing. They array is more than is needed right now so I do not worry about it’s ability to compensate when the sun is shining. In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the insulated enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the batteries getting too hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one point in Aug 2016. But with the lower internal resistance of the lithium’s, maybe this is less likely to be an issue. Do any of you wrenches have any experience with this unconditioned setup? With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Mon Feb 26 13:11:47 2018 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 13:11:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <331D114F-2307-47FF-AEC5-1C97CD68403B@starlightsolar.com> References: <006101d3af22$be483b30$3ad8b190$@dovetailsolar.com> <331D114F-2307-47FF-AEC5-1C97CD68403B@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <007601d3af2d$4451b170$ccf51450$@dovetailsolar.com> Thanks Larry, I figured you would have some experience in this, especially given your RV retrofit experience. This is generally what I had thought would be the case. I also was browsing that exact controller when your post came in 😊 Good to have my thoughts confirmed on heat generation, that should make this setup feasible. I am going to look for a dual mode controller or 2 controllers for both heating and cooling, a heating mode for the heating pad, then a cooling mode controlling a small vent fan in the battery box to deal with what little heat is generated. The controller you linked to operates such that it has a central temperature setting maybe 65F, and once either heating or cooling is triggered, the respective load will run until the central temperature setting has been hit (i.e triggered the heater at 40F but the heater runs till the battery is at 65F). I’d like to operate in two separate 5-10degree windows, essentially keeping the batteries between 40-45F and 90-95F. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 12:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank Hi Daniel, Charging a Li battery below freezing can damage the battery very quickly. Low current, C.05 rate, can be used until cell temperature is above freezing but that can be hard to setup and control. You can store or discharge most Li batteries down to about -5°F. Unless you are using very high current, 1C or more, for long times, the battery temp. will rise very little. Same applies to charging, keeping the rate low will not cause a heat issue. Your best option is build a battery box, insulate and heat it. Very simple with DC silicone heaters. A well insulated box is the key to low power consumption. Make the box so you can vent for summer use. Silicone heaters: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40 &_trksid=p2057872.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC6.A0.H0.XSilicone+Heater+Flexible+Pad+.TRS5&_nkw=Silicone+Heater+Flexible+Pad+&_sacat=0 Temp controller: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-STC-1000-All-Purpose-Temperature-Controller-Thermostat-With-Sensor-D/112145401355?hash=item1a1c63060b:m:mpDAMY9SK0sPRVsidEQ682w Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 26, 2018, at 9:56 AM, Daniel Young > wrote: Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all. The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now considering changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium battery bank before the next winter. I looked into this, as we have been eying the various lithium options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the bullet and really designed a bank into a system. The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not occupied during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the unconditioned, but attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system and shut off all breakers except the ones that power the internet, chest freezer, and security system. As such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, sometimes staying there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with AGM’s, within reason. The battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, where the site has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the AGMs likely produce more heat during a charge than lithium’s, and they have significantly more thermal mass to ride through the really cold nights. Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing during storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the thought was to provide an insulated battery box, and design in some small heating system that is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a low power fiberglass heating pad like is sometimes used for livestock to give them a slightly warmed place to lay down. Then tie that to a thermostat with a sensor on the battery bank. I would of course need to try to account for the extra load in the battery bank sizing. They array is more than is needed right now so I do not worry about it’s ability to compensate when the sun is shining. In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the insulated enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the batteries getting too hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one point in Aug 2016. But with the lower internal resistance of the lithium’s, maybe this is less likely to be an issue. Do any of you wrenches have any experience with this unconditioned setup? With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barton at solarips.com Mon Feb 26 13:34:39 2018 From: barton at solarips.com (Barton Churchill) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:34:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Generator support mode Message-ID: Has anyone successfully paired multiple Radians and an AC generator in support (parallel) mode? We're getting mixed advice from Outback tech so far. Need 600A continuous backup. Thanks! -- -- Barton Churchill 406.587.5295 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 www.solarips.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 26 13:36:29 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:36:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <006101d3af22$be483b30$3ad8b190$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <006101d3af22$be483b30$3ad8b190$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: Hello Daniel, I will give this some thought. What lithium make? The ones I have looked at log the temperature for warranty so that might negate the value a bit. The high temp is just as bad in your case here. Since this has been working well I am assuming snow on the panels is not an issue? Building a battery box that was cooled (small fan) from conditioned space is what I have done. The wall between the garage and living space is perfect. This won't help when the house is cold (unattended) much. It won't help if the house is allowed to get hot either. Some of the Lion batteries are actually listed for living space. The LG is. I don't do that with mine though. Hmmm Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all. > > > > The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now considering > changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium battery bank before > the > next winter. I looked into this, as we have been eying the various lithium > options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the bullet and really designed a bank > into a system. > > > > The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not occupied > during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the unconditioned, but > attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system and shut off all breakers > except the ones that power the internet, chest freezer, and security > system. > As such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, sometimes > staying there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with AGM's, within > reason. > The battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, where > the site has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the AGMs likely > produce more heat during a charge than lithium's, and they have > significantly more thermal mass to ride through the really cold nights. > > > > Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing > during > storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the thought was > to > provide an insulated battery box, and design in some small heating system > that is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a low power fiberglass > heating > pad like is sometimes used for livestock to give them a slightly warmed > place to lay down. Then tie that to a thermostat with a sensor on the > battery bank. I would of course need to try to account for the extra load > in > the battery bank sizing. They array is more than is needed right now so I > do > not worry about it's ability to compensate when the sun is shining. > > > > In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the > insulated > enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the batteries > getting > too hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one point in Aug 2016. But > with the lower internal resistance of the lithium's, maybe this is less > likely to be an issue. Do any of you wrenches have any experience with > this > unconditioned setup? > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Feb 26 14:09:06 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 13:09:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <006101d3af22$be483b30$3ad8b190$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <006101d3af22$be483b30$3ad8b190$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Daniel and Larry, I have a LI-FePO system, Simpliphy 10 kWh it is on its third winter, the batteries are unconditioned but in a box. I am now concerned, as I worked as closely with Simpliphy as I could. They did not caution me about the operation in the cold. The batteries sit and have no load other than the charge controller. This is similar to Daniel's system except he has some loads that run down the battery. If the sun comes out the batteries will get a chance to charge. The charge controller is a Morningstar Tristar 150V MPPT 60 A (not using the roll-back feature) I think I should pay a visit to this customer's cabin. On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 10:56 AM, Daniel Young wrote: > Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all. > > > > The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now considering > changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium battery bank before the > next winter. I looked into this, as we have been eying the various lithium > options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the bullet and really designed a bank > into a system. > > > > The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not occupied > during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the unconditioned, but > attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system and shut off all breakers > except the ones that power the internet, chest freezer, and security > system. As such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, > sometimes staying there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with AGM’s, > within reason. The battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 > winters, where the site has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But > the AGMs likely produce more heat during a charge than lithium’s, and they > have significantly more thermal mass to ride through the really cold nights. > > > > Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing > during storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the > thought was to provide an insulated battery box, and design in some small > heating system that is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a low power > fiberglass heating pad like is sometimes used for livestock to give them a > slightly warmed place to lay down. Then tie that to a thermostat with a > sensor on the battery bank. I would of course need to try to account for > the extra load in the battery bank sizing. They array is more than is > needed right now so I do not worry about it’s ability to compensate when > the sun is shining. > > > > In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the > insulated enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the > batteries getting too hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one point > in Aug 2016. But with the lower internal resistance of the lithium’s, maybe > this is less likely to be an issue. Do any of you wrenches have any > experience with this unconditioned setup? > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Feb 26 15:43:13 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 13:43:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank; Danger of charging frozen In-Reply-To: References: <006101d3af22$be483b30$3ad8b190$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: <5D422CBF-88F3-4939-88BE-9E286560B901@starlightsolar.com> Hello Darryl, With Li battery chemistry, a process called Lithium Plating occurs when charging a frozen cell. Intercalation into the lattice (how Li battery charges and discharges) is resisted and the current then causes a metallic deposition on the battery anode. Think of electroplating. Once this happens, it is instant, permanent damage to the cell. There are natural internal stresses in charging and discharging Li batteries. That’s why they swell. A danger of the plating process can occur later in battery life. The plating, in the form of dendrites, can puncture the separator film due to the natural pressures and swelling, causing a short circuit. Any short circuit in a Li battery is bad. Think Samsung phone. Our solution is never let a Li battery cell drop below 0°C. We build battery packs in boxes and use heaters when required. 2 of the brands we carry have charge inhibit controls that prevent charge current when a cell is below freezing. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 26, 2018, at 12:09 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: Hi Daniel and Larry, I have a LI-FePO system, Simpliphy 10 kWh it is on its third winter, the batteries are unconditioned but in a box. I am now concerned, as I worked as closely with Simpliphy as I could. They did not caution me about the operation in the cold. The batteries sit and have no load other than the charge controller. This is similar to Daniel's system except he has some loads that run down the battery. If the sun comes out the batteries will get a chance to charge. The charge controller is a Morningstar Tristar 150V MPPT 60 A (not using the roll-back feature) I think I should pay a visit to this customer's cabin. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Mon Feb 26 17:21:56 2018 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 22:21:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback FM-100 CC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, I just installed my first FM-100 earlier this month. (I hadn't gotten it yet when you originally posted this email). My thoughts so far are that it is marvelous. With only one in the field and one in my inventory, I don't have much experience with it yet. When I was at SPP in October, Zeke had been beta testing one for a while, and he seemed very happy with it. Because it doesn't have a screen and all the programming has to be done through the Mate 3, I would most likely not use this on a site where I was not planning on having an onsite Mate 3. Otherwise, I wouldn't hesitate at all to use it. I like the mounting system they developed for it, and it has GFP, so you don't need a GFP breaker. It is capable of running 300V on the array, and I really like it overall. Thanks, Kienan >From Jay ----------------- HI All, Does anyone have any experience with the Outback FM -100 CC? thoughts, pros cons etc? Its new but I’m sure there are some of you out there that have been using it. thanks jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Feb 26 20:48:45 2018 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 17:48:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback nano-carbons Message-ID: Wrenches, Anybody using Outback nano-carbons like the Energycell RE, in off-grid residential applications. What’s the good, bad, and ugly with these. Thanks, Michael Morningstar From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 26 22:51:37 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 19:51:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback nano-carbons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96ca506bca8da7d661c218f47ef1ee9a.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Trojan was first with their nano-carbons. I did not see any difference in life with their 2V L16s for life at 3 clients. They might last longer but the jury is still out. They are about 7 years old at this time. --Dave > Wrenches, > > Anybody using Outback nano-carbons like the Energycell RE, in off-grid > residential applications. What’s the good, bad, and ugly with these. > > Thanks, > Michael Morningstar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Feb 27 09:11:22 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 09:11:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: < de36b8c2170bf00a802a665423dd96d7.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: Snow on the array could be a very big problem with the heater load, inverter idle current and anything else that might be left on. Extended periods of heavy clouds can reduce power generation to be less than system's internal losses. It seems like a pretty big gamble to leave an expensive battery bank unattended, that can not go below freezing, and is dependent on array power to prevent freezing. If AGMs survive in this application, it might be better to stay with this technology.   ----- Original Message ----- From: offgridsolar at sti.net "RE-wrenches" To:"RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent:Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:36:29 -0800 (PST) Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank Hello Daniel, I will give this some thought. What lithium make? The ones I have looked at log the temperature for warranty so that might negate the value a bit. The high temp is just as bad in your case here. Since this has been working well I am assuming snow on the panels is not an issue? Building a battery box that was cooled (small fan) from conditioned space is what I have done. The wall between the garage and living space is perfect. This won't help when the house is cold (unattended) much. It won't help if the house is allowed to get hot either. Some of the Lion batteries are actually listed for living space. The LG is. I don't do that with mine though. Hmmm Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all. > > > > The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now considering > changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium battery bank before > the > next winter. I looked into this, as we have been eying the various lithium > options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the bullet and really designed a bank > into a system. > > > > The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not occupied > during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the unconditioned, but > attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system and shut off all breakers > except the ones that power the internet, chest freezer, and security > system. > As such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, sometimes > staying there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with AGM's, within > reason. > The battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, where > the site has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the AGMs likely > produce more heat during a charge than lithium's, and they have > significantly more thermal mass to ride through the really cold nights. > > > > Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing > during > storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the thought was > to > provide an insulated battery box, and design in some small heating system > that is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a low power fiberglass > heating > pad like is sometimes used for livestock to give them a slightly warmed > place to lay down. Then tie that to a thermostat with a sensor on the > battery bank. I would of course need to try to account for the extra load > in > the battery bank sizing. They array is more than is needed right now so I > do > not worry about it's ability to compensate when the sun is shining. > > > > In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the > insulated > enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the batteries > getting > too hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one point in Aug 2016. But > with the lower internal resistance of the lithium's, maybe this is less > likely to be an issue. Do any of you wrenches have any experience with > this > unconditioned setup? > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Feb 27 10:29:19 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 08:29:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F5B89A7-A4BA-4988-8AEB-0FAA7EA35611@starlightsolar.com> Hi Drake, I agree. Li-ion batteries, like lead batteries, should always have a human overseer. This is a difficult reality to convey in our set-it-forget it, automated world. One function of a Li-ion battery EMS or BMS is to prevent over discharge. Once any battery cell reaches the lower limit, the battery will turn off. For many systems, once charge current is again detected, the battery will turn on. Some will not and require a user to turn the battery back on. You can also install an external LVD device to stop power use at a higher SoC. As wrenches, its our responsibility to know our product and educate the customer. Too often, this does not happen. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:11 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: Snow on the array could be a very big problem with the heater load, inverter idle current and anything else that might be left on. Extended periods of heavy clouds can reduce power generation to be less than system's internal losses. It seems like a pretty big gamble to leave an expensive battery bank unattended, that can not go below freezing, and is dependent on array power to prevent freezing. If AGMs survive in this application, it might be better to stay with this technology. ----- Original Message ----- From: offgridsolar at sti.net "RE-wrenches" To:"RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent:Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:36:29 -0800 (PST) Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank Hello Daniel, I will give this some thought. What lithium make? The ones I have looked at log the temperature for warranty so that might negate the value a bit. The high temp is just as bad in your case here. Since this has been working well I am assuming snow on the panels is not an issue? Building a battery box that was cooled (small fan) from conditioned space is what I have done. The wall between the garage and living space is perfect. This won't help when the house is cold (unattended) much. It won't help if the house is allowed to get hot either. Some of the Lion batteries are actually listed for living space. The LG is. I don't do that with mine though. Hmmm Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all. > > > > The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now considering > changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium battery bank before > the > next winter. I looked into this, as we have been eying the various lithium > options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the bullet and really designed a bank > into a system. > > > > The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not occupied > during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the unconditioned, but > attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system and shut off all breakers > except the ones that power the internet, chest freezer, and security > system. > As such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, sometimes > staying there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with AGM's, within > reason. > The battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, where > the site has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the AGMs likely > produce more heat during a charge than lithium's, and they have > significantly more thermal mass to ride through the really cold nights. > > > > Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing > during > storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the thought was > to > provide an insulated battery box, and design in some small heating system > that is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a low power fiberglass > heating > pad like is sometimes used for livestock to give them a slightly warmed > place to lay down. Then tie that to a thermostat with a sensor on the > battery bank. I would of course need to try to account for the extra load > in > the battery bank sizing. They array is more than is needed right now so I > do > not worry about it's ability to compensate when the sun is shining. > > > > In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the > insulated > enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the batteries > getting > too hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one point in Aug 2016. But > with the lower internal resistance of the lithium's, maybe this is less > likely to be an issue. Do any of you wrenches have any experience with > this > unconditioned setup? > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ken at commonwealthsolar.com Tue Feb 27 11:01:22 2018 From: Ken at commonwealthsolar.com (Ken Schaal) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 11:01:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <2F5B89A7-A4BA-4988-8AEB-0FAA7EA35611@starlightsolar.com> References: <2F5B89A7-A4BA-4988-8AEB-0FAA7EA35611@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Have u considered, or is it possible, to set the batteries several ft. into the earth? 50 or so year round. Works for livestock water, earth sheltered houses, caves..... On Feb 27, 2018 10:29 AM, "Starlight Solar Power Systems" < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Hi Drake, > > I agree. Li-ion batteries, like lead batteries, should always have a human > overseer. This is a difficult reality to convey in our set-it-forget it, > automated world. > > One function of a Li-ion battery EMS or BMS is to prevent over discharge. > Once any battery cell reaches the lower limit, the battery will turn off. > For many systems, once charge current is again detected, the battery will > turn on. Some will not and require a user to turn the battery back on. You > can also install an external LVD device to stop power use at a higher SoC. > > As wrenches, its our responsibility to know our product and educate the > customer. Too often, this does not happen. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:11 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Snow on the array could be a very big problem with the heater load, > inverter idle current and anything else that might be left on. Extended > periods of heavy clouds can reduce power generation to be less than > system's internal losses. It seems like a pretty big gamble to leave an > expensive battery bank unattended, that can not go below freezing, and is > dependent on array power to prevent freezing. > > If AGMs survive in this application, it might be better to stay with this > technology. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > offgridsolar at sti.net "RE-wrenches" > > To: > "RE-wrenches" > Cc: > > Sent: > Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:36:29 -0800 (PST) > Subject: > Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank > > > Hello Daniel, > > I will give this some thought. What lithium make? The ones I have looked > at log the temperature for warranty so that might negate the value a bit. > The high temp is just as bad in your case here. > > Since this has been working well I am assuming snow on the panels is not > an issue? > > Building a battery box that was cooled (small fan) from conditioned space > is what I have done. The wall between the garage and living space is > perfect. This won't help when the house is cold (unattended) much. It > won't help if the house is allowed to get hot either. > > Some of the Lion batteries are actually listed for living space. The LG > is. I don't do that with mine though. Hmmm > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 <(209)%20813-0060> > > > Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all. > > > > > > > > The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now considering > > changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium battery bank before > > the > > next winter. I looked into this, as we have been eying the various > lithium > > options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the bullet and really designed a bank > > into a system. > > > > > > > > The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not occupied > > during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the unconditioned, > but > > attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system and shut off all > breakers > > except the ones that power the internet, chest freezer, and security > > system. > > As such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, sometimes > > staying there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with AGM's, within > > reason. > > The battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, > where > > the site has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the AGMs likely > > produce more heat during a charge than lithium's, and they have > > significantly more thermal mass to ride through the really cold nights. > > > > > > > > Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing > > during > > storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the thought was > > to > > provide an insulated battery box, and design in some small heating system > > that is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a low power fiberglass > > heating > > pad like is sometimes used for livestock to give them a slightly warmed > > place to lay down. Then tie that to a thermostat with a sensor on the > > battery bank. I would of course need to try to account for the extra load > > in > > the battery bank sizing. They array is more than is needed right now so I > > do > > not worry about it's ability to compensate when the sun is shining. > > > > > > > > In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the > > insulated > > enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the batteries > > getting > > too hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one point in Aug 2016. > But > > with the lower internal resistance of the lithium's, maybe this is less > > likely to be an issue. Do any of you wrenches have any experience with > > this > > unconditioned setup? > > > > > > > > With Regards, > > > > > > > > Daniel Young, > > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 <(209)%20813-0060> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Feb 27 12:01:45 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 10:01:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating any battery bank Message-ID: <001701d3afec$a93c7290$fbb557b0$@solarwork.com> At a couple of remote systems, I have housed the battery bank as follows. It is not cheap [$2,000 for pump, controller, & collector, plus the slab] but works very well: Flat plate Solar thermal collector installed at 60+°, pumped directly to a 6” insulated slab dedicated to the battery bank or the power room slab. Well insulated slab is the key word here. If you are interested contact me off list, it is a lengthy conversation & it helps if you have some radiant heat installation experience. I have a 900 sqft building floating at 46-54°F currently at 5,600 ft in South Central Idaho with no heat back up to the slab. The temps would be higher if the collector orientation was more S-SW VS the SE orientation due to the canyon & building orientation. We floated our home in CO at 70-74° with the same system & a boiler backup. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ken Schaal Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 9:01 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank Have u considered, or is it possible, to set the batteries several ft. into the earth? 50 or so year round. Works for livestock water, earth sheltered houses, caves..... On Feb 27, 2018 10:29 AM, "Starlight Solar Power Systems" > wrote: Hi Drake, I agree. Li-ion batteries, like lead batteries, should always have a human overseer. This is a difficult reality to convey in our set-it-forget it, automated world. One function of a Li-ion battery EMS or BMS is to prevent over discharge. Once any battery cell reaches the lower limit, the battery will turn off. For many systems, once charge current is again detected, the battery will turn on. Some will not and require a user to turn the battery back on. You can also install an external LVD device to stop power use at a higher SoC. As wrenches, its our responsibility to know our product and educate the customer. Too often, this does not happen. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:11 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: Snow on the array could be a very big problem with the heater load, inverter idle current and anything else that might be left on. Extended periods of heavy clouds can reduce power generation to be less than system's internal losses. It seems like a pretty big gamble to leave an expensive battery bank unattended, that can not go below freezing, and is dependent on array power to prevent freezing. If AGMs survive in this application, it might be better to stay with this technology. ----- Original Message ----- From: offgridsolar at sti.net "RE-wrenches" > To: "RE-wrenches" > Cc: Sent: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:36:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank Hello Daniel, I will give this some thought. What lithium make? The ones I have looked at log the temperature for warranty so that might negate the value a bit. The high temp is just as bad in your case here. Since this has been working well I am assuming snow on the panels is not an issue? Building a battery box that was cooled (small fan) from conditioned space is what I have done. The wall between the garage and living space is perfect. This won't help when the house is cold (unattended) much. It won't help if the house is allowed to get hot either. Some of the Lion batteries are actually listed for living space. The LG is. I don't do that with mine though. Hmmm Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all. > > > > The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now considering > changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium battery bank before > the > next winter. I looked into this, as we have been eying the various lithium > options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the bullet and really designed a bank > into a system. > > > > The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not occupied > during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the unconditioned, but > attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system and shut off all breakers > except the ones that power the internet, chest freezer, and security > system. > As such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, sometimes > staying there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with AGM's, within > reason. > The battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, where > the site has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the AGMs likely > produce more heat during a charge than lithium's, and they have > significantly more thermal mass to ride through the really cold nights. > > > > Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing > during > storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the thought was > to > provide an insulated battery box, and design in some small heating system > that is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a low power fiberglass > heating > pad like is sometimes used for livestock to give them a slightly warmed > place to lay down. Then tie that to a thermostat with a sensor on the > battery bank. I would of course need to try to account for the extra load > in > the battery bank sizing. They array is more than is needed right now so I > do > not worry about it's ability to compensate when the sun is shining. > > > > In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the > insulated > enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the batteries > getting > too hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one point in Aug 2016. But > with the lower internal resistance of the lithium's, maybe this is less > likely to be an issue. Do any of you wrenches have any experience with > this > unconditioned setup? > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Feb 27 13:13:34 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 10:13:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <2F5B89A7-A4BA-4988-8AEB-0FAA7EA35611@starlightsolar.com> References: <2F5B89A7-A4BA-4988-8AEB-0FAA7EA35611@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <9ee84d626c66a3a0d7709832525f4cc0.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> The LG RESU series will trip it's breaker at around 10% Soc. It will require a human unless the LVD on the inverter is set higher than the battery. Yes Sir it is our responsibility to educate our users or have plane tickets (: Will be installing the Discover battery soon into Xanbus. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Hi Drake, > > I agree. Li-ion batteries, like lead batteries, should always have a human > overseer. This is a difficult reality to convey in our set-it-forget it, > automated world. > > One function of a Li-ion battery EMS or BMS is to prevent over discharge. > Once any battery cell reaches the lower limit, the battery will turn off. > For many systems, once charge current is again detected, the battery will > turn on. Some will not and require a user to turn the battery back on. You > can also install an external LVD device to stop power use at a higher SoC. > > As wrenches, its our responsibility to know our product and educate the > customer. Too often, this does not happen. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:11 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Snow on the array could be a very big problem with the heater load, > inverter idle current and anything else that might be left on. Extended > periods of heavy clouds can reduce power generation to be less than > system's internal losses. It seems like a pretty big gamble to leave an > expensive battery bank unattended, that can not go below freezing, and is > dependent on array power to prevent freezing. > > If AGMs survive in this application, it might be better to stay with this > technology. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: offgridsolar at sti.net "RE-wrenches" > > To:"RE-wrenches" > Cc: > Sent:Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:36:29 -0800 (PST) > Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank > > > Hello Daniel, > > I will give this some thought. What lithium make? The ones I have looked > at log the temperature for warranty so that might negate the value a bit. > The high temp is just as bad in your case here. > > Since this has been working well I am assuming snow on the panels is not > an issue? > > Building a battery box that was cooled (small fan) from conditioned space > is what I have done. The wall between the garage and living space is > perfect. This won't help when the house is cold (unattended) much. It > won't help if the house is allowed to get hot either. > > Some of the Lion batteries are actually listed for living space. The LG > is. I don't do that with mine though. Hmmm > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > >> Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all. >> >> >> >> The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now considering >> changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium battery bank before >> the >> next winter. I looked into this, as we have been eying the various >> lithium >> options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the bullet and really designed a bank >> into a system. >> >> >> >> The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not >> occupied >> during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the unconditioned, >> but >> attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system and shut off all >> breakers >> except the ones that power the internet, chest freezer, and security >> system. >> As such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, sometimes >> staying there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with AGM's, within >> reason. >> The battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, >> where >> the site has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the AGMs >> likely >> produce more heat during a charge than lithium's, and they have >> significantly more thermal mass to ride through the really cold nights. >> >> >> >> Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing >> during >> storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the thought >> was >> to >> provide an insulated battery box, and design in some small heating >> system >> that is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a low power fiberglass >> heating >> pad like is sometimes used for livestock to give them a slightly warmed >> place to lay down. Then tie that to a thermostat with a sensor on the >> battery bank. I would of course need to try to account for the extra >> load >> in >> the battery bank sizing. They array is more than is needed right now so >> I >> do >> not worry about it's ability to compensate when the sun is shining. >> >> >> >> In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the >> insulated >> enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the batteries >> getting >> too hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one point in Aug 2016. >> But >> with the lower internal resistance of the lithium's, maybe this is less >> likely to be an issue. Do any of you wrenches have any experience with >> this >> unconditioned setup? >> >> >> >> With Regards, >> >> >> >> Daniel Young, >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Wed Feb 28 11:15:49 2018 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 11:15:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <9ee84d626c66a3a0d7709832525f4cc0.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <2F5B89A7-A4BA-4988-8AEB-0FAA7EA35611@starlightsolar.com> <9ee84d626c66a3a0d7709832525f4cc0.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <00aa01d3b0af$688246d0$3986d470$@dovetailsolar.com> These issues are not lost on me for sure. I have to plan out a new protective setup to try to ensure that if the temperatures drop and the battery bank hits LVD, that the array cannot just charge the battery back up on it's own. Possibly some sort of temperature dependent relay or shunt trip breaker on the battery bank to ensure that below 35F the battery must be manually warmed to resume operation, or the system waits until the battery warms on it's own before allowing the CC's or even a generator to charge them. My understanding is that the lithium's can go below freezing easily, but they just cannot be charged when below freezing. They can sit down to -5F if not being charged, they can even be under discharge down to that in some cases. But adding controls to allow discharge, but not charge is likely a bit too much, best to just isolate the battery bank if below 32-35F in my opinion, which is what I plan to try to accomplish. Ideally someone is there to watch the batteries, but that simply is not an option. And the client is not likely to want a new AGM bank. But they will have to decide between the pro's and con's. All I can do is give them the info, and the choice. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 1:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank The LG RESU series will trip it's breaker at around 10% Soc. It will require a human unless the LVD on the inverter is set higher than the battery. Yes Sir it is our responsibility to educate our users or have plane tickets (: Will be installing the Discover battery soon into Xanbus. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Hi Drake, > > I agree. Li-ion batteries, like lead batteries, should always have a > human overseer. This is a difficult reality to convey in our > set-it-forget it, automated world. > > One function of a Li-ion battery EMS or BMS is to prevent over discharge. > Once any battery cell reaches the lower limit, the battery will turn off. > For many systems, once charge current is again detected, the battery > will turn on. Some will not and require a user to turn the battery > back on. You can also install an external LVD device to stop power use at a higher SoC. > > As wrenches, its our responsibility to know our product and educate > the customer. Too often, this does not happen. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:11 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Snow on the array could be a very big problem with the heater load, > inverter idle current and anything else that might be left on. > Extended periods of heavy clouds can reduce power generation to be > less than system's internal losses. It seems like a pretty big gamble > to leave an expensive battery bank unattended, that can not go below > freezing, and is dependent on array power to prevent freezing. > > If AGMs survive in this application, it might be better to stay with > this technology. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: offgridsolar at sti.net "RE-wrenches" > > To:"RE-wrenches" > Cc: > Sent:Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:36:29 -0800 (PST) > Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank > > > Hello Daniel, > > I will give this some thought. What lithium make? The ones I have > looked at log the temperature for warranty so that might negate the value a bit. > The high temp is just as bad in your case here. > > Since this has been working well I am assuming snow on the panels is > not an issue? > > Building a battery box that was cooled (small fan) from conditioned > space is what I have done. The wall between the garage and living > space is perfect. This won't help when the house is cold (unattended) > much. It won't help if the house is allowed to get hot either. > > Some of the Lion batteries are actually listed for living space. The > LG is. I don't do that with mine though. Hmmm > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > >> Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all. >> >> >> >> The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now >> considering changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium >> battery bank before the next winter. I looked into this, as we have >> been eying the various lithium options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the >> bullet and really designed a bank into a system. >> >> >> >> The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not >> occupied during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the >> unconditioned, but attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system >> and shut off all breakers except the ones that power the internet, >> chest freezer, and security system. >> As such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, >> sometimes staying there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with >> AGM's, within reason. >> The battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, >> where the site has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the >> AGMs likely produce more heat during a charge than lithium's, and >> they have significantly more thermal mass to ride through the really >> cold nights. >> >> >> >> Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing >> during storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the >> thought was to provide an insulated battery box, and design in some >> small heating system that is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a >> low power fiberglass heating pad like is sometimes used for livestock >> to give them a slightly warmed place to lay down. Then tie that to a >> thermostat with a sensor on the battery bank. I would of course need >> to try to account for the extra load in the battery bank sizing. They >> array is more than is needed right now so I do not worry about it's >> ability to compensate when the sun is shining. >> >> >> >> In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the >> insulated enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the >> batteries getting too hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one >> point in Aug 2016. >> But >> with the lower internal resistance of the lithium's, maybe this is >> less likely to be an issue. Do any of you wrenches have any >> experience with this unconditioned setup? >> >> >> >> With Regards, >> >> >> >> Daniel Young, >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis >> t.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Feb 28 11:51:14 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 09:51:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <00aa01d3b0af$688246d0$3986d470$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <2F5B89A7-A4BA-4988-8AEB-0FAA7EA35611@starlightsolar.com> <9ee84d626c66a3a0d7709832525f4cc0.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <00aa01d3b0af$688246d0$3986d470$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: <8A8A54DC-A70E-4755-8446-7251E590A78A@starlightsolar.com> Daniel, Quote "I have to plan out a new protective setup to try to ensure that if the temperatures drop and the battery bank hits LVD, that the array cannot just charge the battery back up on it's own." Quote “...But adding controls to allow discharge, but not charge is likely a bit too much,…” Quote “…best to just isolate the battery bank if below 32-35F..." As I mentioned, these features are already built into the Li EMS system of 2 brands that we sell and likely other brands. No need to reinvent it. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 28, 2018, at 9:15 AM, Daniel Young wrote: These issues are not lost on me for sure. I have to plan out a new protective setup to try to ensure that if the temperatures drop and the battery bank hits LVD, that the array cannot just charge the battery back up on it's own. Possibly some sort of temperature dependent relay or shunt trip breaker on the battery bank to ensure that below 35F the battery must be manually warmed to resume operation, or the system waits until the battery warms on it's own before allowing the CC's or even a generator to charge them. My understanding is that the lithium's can go below freezing easily, but they just cannot be charged when below freezing. They can sit down to -5F if not being charged, they can even be under discharge down to that in some cases. But adding controls to allow discharge, but not charge is likely a bit too much, best to just isolate the battery bank if below 32-35F in my opinion, which is what I plan to try to accomplish. Ideally someone is there to watch the batteries, but that simply is not an option. And the client is not likely to want a new AGM bank. But they will have to decide between the pro's and con's. All I can do is give them the info, and the choice. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From sunengser at gmail.com Wed Feb 28 11:55:52 2018 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 08:55:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: <00aa01d3b0af$688246d0$3986d470$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <2F5B89A7-A4BA-4988-8AEB-0FAA7EA35611@starlightsolar.com> <9ee84d626c66a3a0d7709832525f4cc0.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <00aa01d3b0af$688246d0$3986d470$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: Daniel Why are we having to deal with low temp charging? Litium batteries already have cell temp monitoring and relays to shut down individual cells when they over temp. How hard would it be to open the relay at low temps too? Seems like something the lithium battery folks should have already thought of? Bill hoffer On Feb 28, 2018 8:15 AM, "Daniel Young" wrote: These issues are not lost on me for sure. I have to plan out a new protective setup to try to ensure that if the temperatures drop and the battery bank hits LVD, that the array cannot just charge the battery back up on it's own. Possibly some sort of temperature dependent relay or shunt trip breaker on the battery bank to ensure that below 35F the battery must be manually warmed to resume operation, or the system waits until the battery warms on it's own before allowing the CC's or even a generator to charge them. My understanding is that the lithium's can go below freezing easily, but they just cannot be charged when below freezing. They can sit down to -5F if not being charged, they can even be under discharge down to that in some cases. But adding controls to allow discharge, but not charge is likely a bit too much, best to just isolate the battery bank if below 32-35F in my opinion, which is what I plan to try to accomplish. Ideally someone is there to watch the batteries, but that simply is not an option. And the client is not likely to want a new AGM bank. But they will have to decide between the pro's and con's. All I can do is give them the info, and the choice. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 1:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank The LG RESU series will trip it's breaker at around 10% Soc. It will require a human unless the LVD on the inverter is set higher than the battery. Yes Sir it is our responsibility to educate our users or have plane tickets (: Will be installing the Discover battery soon into Xanbus. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Hi Drake, > > I agree. Li-ion batteries, like lead batteries, should always have a > human overseer. This is a difficult reality to convey in our > set-it-forget it, automated world. > > One function of a Li-ion battery EMS or BMS is to prevent over discharge. > Once any battery cell reaches the lower limit, the battery will turn off. > For many systems, once charge current is again detected, the battery > will turn on. Some will not and require a user to turn the battery > back on. You can also install an external LVD device to stop power use at a higher SoC. > > As wrenches, its our responsibility to know our product and educate > the customer. Too often, this does not happen. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:11 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Snow on the array could be a very big problem with the heater load, > inverter idle current and anything else that might be left on. > Extended periods of heavy clouds can reduce power generation to be > less than system's internal losses. It seems like a pretty big gamble > to leave an expensive battery bank unattended, that can not go below > freezing, and is dependent on array power to prevent freezing. > > If AGMs survive in this application, it might be better to stay with > this technology. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: offgridsolar at sti.net "RE-wrenches" > > To:"RE-wrenches" > Cc: > Sent:Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:36:29 -0800 (PST) > Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank > > > Hello Daniel, > > I will give this some thought. What lithium make? The ones I have > looked at log the temperature for warranty so that might negate the value a bit. > The high temp is just as bad in your case here. > > Since this has been working well I am assuming snow on the panels is > not an issue? > > Building a battery box that was cooled (small fan) from conditioned > space is what I have done. The wall between the garage and living > space is perfect. This won't help when the house is cold (unattended) > much. It won't help if the house is allowed to get hot either. > > Some of the Lion batteries are actually listed for living space. The > LG is. I don't do that with mine though. Hmmm > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > >> Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all. >> >> >> >> The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now >> considering changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium >> battery bank before the next winter. I looked into this, as we have >> been eying the various lithium options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the >> bullet and really designed a bank into a system. >> >> >> >> The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not >> occupied during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the >> unconditioned, but attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system >> and shut off all breakers except the ones that power the internet, >> chest freezer, and security system. >> As such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, >> sometimes staying there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with >> AGM's, within reason. >> The battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, >> where the site has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the >> AGMs likely produce more heat during a charge than lithium's, and >> they have significantly more thermal mass to ride through the really >> cold nights. >> >> >> >> Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing >> during storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the >> thought was to provide an insulated battery box, and design in some >> small heating system that is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a >> low power fiberglass heating pad like is sometimes used for livestock >> to give them a slightly warmed place to lay down. Then tie that to a >> thermostat with a sensor on the battery bank. I would of course need >> to try to account for the extra load in the battery bank sizing. They >> array is more than is needed right now so I do not worry about it's >> ability to compensate when the sun is shining. >> >> >> >> In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the >> insulated enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the >> batteries getting too hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one >> point in Aug 2016. >> But >> with the lower internal resistance of the lithium's, maybe this is >> less likely to be an issue. Do any of you wrenches have any >> experience with this unconditioned setup? >> >> >> >> With Regards, >> >> >> >> Daniel Young, >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis >> t.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Feb 28 14:57:44 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 11:57:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: References: <2F5B89A7-A4BA-4988-8AEB-0FAA7EA35611@starlightsolar.com> <9ee84d626c66a3a0d7709832525f4cc0.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <00aa01d3b0af$688246d0$3986d470$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: As I mentioned on a related post, Tesla's Powerwall has an active heating feature where it will use some of its own energy to raise cell temperature. Obviously this means that it will need to be charged throughout the cold season using some amount of PV energy to do so (I think I heard 250 Wh per heating cycle depending on temps?). I understand that Tesla's offgrid Powerwall isn't ready for prime time yet. August *August Goers* Luminalt Energy Corporation On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:55 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote: > Daniel > > Why are we having to deal with low temp charging? Litium batteries > already have cell temp monitoring and relays to shut down individual cells > when they over temp. How hard would it be to open the relay at low temps > too? Seems like something the lithium battery folks should have already > thought of? > > Bill hoffer > > > On Feb 28, 2018 8:15 AM, "Daniel Young" wrote: > > These issues are not lost on me for sure. I have to plan out a new > protective setup to try to ensure that if the temperatures drop and the > battery bank hits LVD, that the array cannot just charge the battery back > up > on it's own. Possibly some sort of temperature dependent relay or shunt > trip > breaker on the battery bank to ensure that below 35F the battery must be > manually warmed to resume operation, or the system waits until the battery > warms on it's own before allowing the CC's or even a generator to charge > them. > > My understanding is that the lithium's can go below freezing easily, but > they just cannot be charged when below freezing. They can sit down to -5F > if > not being charged, they can even be under discharge down to that in some > cases. But adding controls to allow discharge, but not charge is likely a > bit too much, best to just isolate the battery bank if below 32-35F in my > opinion, which is what I plan to try to accomplish. > > Ideally someone is there to watch the batteries, but that simply is not an > option. And the client is not likely to want a new AGM bank. But they will > have to decide between the pro's and con's. All I can do is give them the > info, and the choice. > > With Regards, > > Daniel Young, > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 1:14 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank > > The LG RESU series will trip it's breaker at around 10% Soc. It will > require > a human unless the LVD on the inverter is set higher than the battery. Yes > Sir it is our responsibility to educate our users or have plane tickets (: > > Will be installing the Discover battery soon into Xanbus. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > Hi Drake, > > > > I agree. Li-ion batteries, like lead batteries, should always have a > > human overseer. This is a difficult reality to convey in our > > set-it-forget it, automated world. > > > > One function of a Li-ion battery EMS or BMS is to prevent over discharge. > > Once any battery cell reaches the lower limit, the battery will turn off. > > For many systems, once charge current is again detected, the battery > > will turn on. Some will not and require a user to turn the battery > > back on. You can also install an external LVD device to stop power use at > a higher SoC. > > > > As wrenches, its our responsibility to know our product and educate > > the customer. Too often, this does not happen. > > > > Larry Crutcher > > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:11 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > > > Snow on the array could be a very big problem with the heater load, > > inverter idle current and anything else that might be left on. > > Extended periods of heavy clouds can reduce power generation to be > > less than system's internal losses. It seems like a pretty big gamble > > to leave an expensive battery bank unattended, that can not go below > > freezing, and is dependent on array power to prevent freezing. > > > > If AGMs survive in this application, it might be better to stay with > > this technology. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: offgridsolar at sti.net "RE-wrenches" > > > > To:"RE-wrenches" > > Cc: > > Sent:Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:36:29 -0800 (PST) > > Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank > > > > > > Hello Daniel, > > > > I will give this some thought. What lithium make? The ones I have > > looked at log the temperature for warranty so that might negate the value > a bit. > > The high temp is just as bad in your case here. > > > > Since this has been working well I am assuming snow on the panels is > > not an issue? > > > > Building a battery box that was cooled (small fan) from conditioned > > space is what I have done. The wall between the garage and living > > space is perfect. This won't help when the house is cold (unattended) > > much. It won't help if the house is allowed to get hot either. > > > > Some of the Lion batteries are actually listed for living space. The > > LG is. I don't do that with mine though. Hmmm > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > > >> Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all. > >> > >> > >> > >> The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now > >> considering changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium > >> battery bank before the next winter. I looked into this, as we have > >> been eying the various lithium options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the > >> bullet and really designed a bank into a system. > >> > >> > >> > >> The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not > >> occupied during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the > >> unconditioned, but attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system > >> and shut off all breakers except the ones that power the internet, > >> chest freezer, and security system. > >> As such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, > >> sometimes staying there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with > >> AGM's, within reason. > >> The battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, > >> where the site has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the > >> AGMs likely produce more heat during a charge than lithium's, and > >> they have significantly more thermal mass to ride through the really > >> cold nights. > >> > >> > >> > >> Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing > >> during storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the > >> thought was to provide an insulated battery box, and design in some > >> small heating system that is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a > >> low power fiberglass heating pad like is sometimes used for livestock > >> to give them a slightly warmed place to lay down. Then tie that to a > >> thermostat with a sensor on the battery bank. I would of course need > >> to try to account for the extra load in the battery bank sizing. They > >> array is more than is needed right now so I do not worry about it's > >> ability to compensate when the sun is shining. > >> > >> > >> > >> In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the > >> insulated enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the > >> batteries getting too hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one > >> point in Aug 2016. > >> But > >> with the lower internal resistance of the lithium's, maybe this is > >> less likely to be an issue. Do any of you wrenches have any > >> experience with this unconditioned setup? > >> > >> > >> > >> With Regards, > >> > >> > >> > >> Daniel Young, > >> > >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis > >> t.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > > .html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > > .html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > > .html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Feb 28 15:10:50 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 12:10:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank In-Reply-To: References: <2F5B89A7-A4BA-4988-8AEB-0FAA7EA35611@starlightsolar.com> <9ee84d626c66a3a0d7709832525f4cc0.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <00aa01d3b0af$688246d0$3986d470$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: <81f33d25d66c4c5cc230955d621c0120.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> August, The current Tesla (AC coupled only) would be a challenge for sure! I do like the 13KWH for the price. I hope they do something as everything I have looked at beside the LG is over $1,000 (wholesale) per ueable KWH. Hope this changes. --Dave > As I mentioned on a related post, Tesla's Powerwall has an active heating > feature where it will use some of its own energy to raise cell > temperature. > Obviously this means that it will need to be charged throughout the cold > season using some amount of PV energy to do so (I think I heard 250 Wh per > heating cycle depending on temps?). I understand that Tesla's offgrid > Powerwall isn't ready for prime time yet. > > August > > *August Goers* > > Luminalt Energy Corporation > > > On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:55 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote: > >> Daniel >> >> Why are we having to deal with low temp charging? Litium batteries >> already have cell temp monitoring and relays to shut down individual >> cells >> when they over temp. How hard would it be to open the relay at low >> temps >> too? Seems like something the lithium battery folks should have already >> thought of? >> >> Bill hoffer >> >> >> On Feb 28, 2018 8:15 AM, "Daniel Young" >> wrote: >> >> These issues are not lost on me for sure. I have to plan out a new >> protective setup to try to ensure that if the temperatures drop and the >> battery bank hits LVD, that the array cannot just charge the battery >> back >> up >> on it's own. Possibly some sort of temperature dependent relay or shunt >> trip >> breaker on the battery bank to ensure that below 35F the battery must be >> manually warmed to resume operation, or the system waits until the >> battery >> warms on it's own before allowing the CC's or even a generator to charge >> them. >> >> My understanding is that the lithium's can go below freezing easily, but >> they just cannot be charged when below freezing. They can sit down to >> -5F >> if >> not being charged, they can even be under discharge down to that in some >> cases. But adding controls to allow discharge, but not charge is likely >> a >> bit too much, best to just isolate the battery bank if below 32-35F in >> my >> opinion, which is what I plan to try to accomplish. >> >> Ideally someone is there to watch the batteries, but that simply is not >> an >> option. And the client is not likely to want a new AGM bank. But they >> will >> have to decide between the pro's and con's. All I can do is give them >> the >> info, and the choice. >> >> With Regards, >> >> Daniel Young, >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 1:14 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank >> >> The LG RESU series will trip it's breaker at around 10% Soc. It will >> require >> a human unless the LVD on the inverter is set higher than the battery. >> Yes >> Sir it is our responsibility to educate our users or have plane tickets >> (: >> >> Will be installing the Discover battery soon into Xanbus. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> > Hi Drake, >> > >> > I agree. Li-ion batteries, like lead batteries, should always have a >> > human overseer. This is a difficult reality to convey in our >> > set-it-forget it, automated world. >> > >> > One function of a Li-ion battery EMS or BMS is to prevent over >> discharge. >> > Once any battery cell reaches the lower limit, the battery will turn >> off. >> > For many systems, once charge current is again detected, the battery >> > will turn on. Some will not and require a user to turn the battery >> > back on. You can also install an external LVD device to stop power use >> at >> a higher SoC. >> > >> > As wrenches, its our responsibility to know our product and educate >> > the customer. Too often, this does not happen. >> > >> > Larry Crutcher >> > Starlight Solar Power Systems >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:11 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >> wrote: >> > >> > Snow on the array could be a very big problem with the heater load, >> > inverter idle current and anything else that might be left on. >> > Extended periods of heavy clouds can reduce power generation to be >> > less than system's internal losses. It seems like a pretty big gamble >> > to leave an expensive battery bank unattended, that can not go below >> > freezing, and is dependent on array power to prevent freezing. >> > >> > If AGMs survive in this application, it might be better to stay with >> > this technology. >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: offgridsolar at sti.net "RE-wrenches" >> > >> > To:"RE-wrenches" >> > Cc: >> > Sent:Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:36:29 -0800 (PST) >> > Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank >> > >> > >> > Hello Daniel, >> > >> > I will give this some thought. What lithium make? The ones I have >> > looked at log the temperature for warranty so that might negate the >> value >> a bit. >> > The high temp is just as bad in your case here. >> > >> > Since this has been working well I am assuming snow on the panels is >> > not an issue? >> > >> > Building a battery box that was cooled (small fan) from conditioned >> > space is what I have done. The wall between the garage and living >> > space is perfect. This won't help when the house is cold (unattended) >> > much. It won't help if the house is allowed to get hot either. >> > >> > Some of the Lion batteries are actually listed for living space. The >> > LG is. I don't do that with mine though. Hmmm >> > >> > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> > "we go where powerlines don't" >> > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> > text 209 813 0060 >> > >> >> Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now >> >> considering changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium >> >> battery bank before the next winter. I looked into this, as we have >> >> been eying the various lithium options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the >> >> bullet and really designed a bank into a system. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not >> >> occupied during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the >> >> unconditioned, but attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system >> >> and shut off all breakers except the ones that power the internet, >> >> chest freezer, and security system. >> >> As such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, >> >> sometimes staying there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with >> >> AGM's, within reason. >> >> The battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, >> >> where the site has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the >> >> AGMs likely produce more heat during a charge than lithium's, and >> >> they have significantly more thermal mass to ride through the really >> >> cold nights. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing >> >> during storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the >> >> thought was to provide an insulated battery box, and design in some >> >> small heating system that is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a >> >> low power fiberglass heating pad like is sometimes used for livestock >> >> to give them a slightly warmed place to lay down. Then tie that to a >> >> thermostat with a sensor on the battery bank. I would of course need >> >> to try to account for the extra load in the battery bank sizing. They >> >> array is more than is needed right now so I do not worry about it's >> >> ability to compensate when the sun is shining. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the >> >> insulated enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the >> >> batteries getting too hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one >> >> point in Aug 2016. >> >> But >> >> with the lower internal resistance of the lithium's, maybe this is >> >> less likely to be an issue. Do any of you wrenches have any >> >> experience with this unconditioned setup? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> With Regards, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Daniel Young, >> >> >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis >> >> t.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> > "we go where powerlines don't" >> > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> > text 209 813 0060 >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> > .html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> > .html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> > .html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or >> g/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or >> g/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Feb 28 15:16:56 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 12:16:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lorentz pumps Message-ID: HI All, I’ve got a client asking me about Lorentz pumps. I know they have sort of come and gone from the USA. Is anyone using them, have any pros/cons vs Grundfos and where to get them? thanks jay peltz power From chris at OasisMontana.com Wed Feb 28 15:22:57 2018 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 13:22:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump LCBs Message-ID: <020a01d3b0d1$ec3f4820$c4bdd860$@OasisMontana.com> Dear people: I have a fellow looking for a supplier of LCBs for their PV pumping projects; here are the specifications. Nominal voltage, 48V; nominal PV input 48V; maximum PV input 60V; max output voltage 60V; max output amps 10A; in a Nema 4 enclosure; rhe most important is to have an early start in low light conditions on 5VDC. In 5Vdc on MPPT must start the motor (minimum starting voltage). It appears Solar Converters is no more...and Dankoff is not being of assistance on this matter. Any other suggestions? THANKS! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Feb 28 16:32:39 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 14:32:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump LCBs In-Reply-To: <020a01d3b0d1$ec3f4820$c4bdd860$@OasisMontana.com> References: <020a01d3b0d1$ec3f4820$c4bdd860$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <8F2F853B-4AAD-41BB-B44E-8EE0DA372C4D@starlightsolar.com> Hey Chris, Might be a long-shot but check with Frank at BZ Products. Rings a bell but can’t think why. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 28, 2018, at 1:22 PM, chris at OasisMontana.com wrote: Dear people: I have a fellow looking for a supplier of LCBs for their PV pumping projects; here are the specifications. Nominal voltage, 48V; nominal PV input 48V; maximum PV input 60V; max output voltage 60V; max output amps 10A; in a Nema 4 enclosure; rhe most important is to have an early start in low light conditions on 5VDC. In 5Vdc on MPPT must start the motor (minimum starting voltage). It appears Solar Converters is no more...and Dankoff is not being of assistance on this matter. Any other suggestions? THANKS! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From sbell at morningstarcorp.com Wed Feb 28 16:33:19 2018 From: sbell at morningstarcorp.com (Steve Bell) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 14:33:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump LCBs In-Reply-To: <020a01d3b0d1$ec3f4820$c4bdd860$@OasisMontana.com> References: <020a01d3b0d1$ec3f4820$c4bdd860$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: HI Chris, Have you tried Sun Pumps? They make a lot of good pump controllers. Steve Bell Morningstar Tech Support sbell at morningstarcorp.com On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 1:22 PM, wrote: > Dear people: > > I have a fellow looking for a supplier of LCBs for their PV pumping > projects; here are the specifications. Nominal voltage, 48V; nominal PV > input 48V; maximum PV input 60V; max output voltage 60V; max output amps > 10A; in a Nema 4 enclosure; rhe most important is to have an early start > in low light conditions on 5VDC. In 5Vdc on MPPT must start the motor > (minimum starting voltage). > > It appears Solar Converters is no more...and Dankoff is not being of > assistance on this matter. Any other suggestions? THANKS! > > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Feb 28 19:09:01 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2018 00:09:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lorentz pumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, I have one on my own well 480’ down a 800’ deep well. At the time, they could only handle 500’ but since then have one that can pump from 1000’ and more. I only sold a few. I did have to replace the circuit board on the controller a couple of years ago and delt with a Lorentz dealer which seems to be the major one located in Texas. Overall, I have been impressed with the pump. It turns 17 Year’s old this year and started out as a direct solar pump with 4 100 watt panels but I later connected it to a 48 volt system when a cabin was built near the wellhead. John Blittersdorf Solar guru at Rob Stubbins Electrical And Solar Contractors. On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 3:39 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’ve got a client asking me about Lorentz pumps. > > I know they have sort of come and gone from the USA. > > Is anyone using them, have any pros/cons vs Grundfos and where to get them? > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Thu Mar 1 13:59:25 2018 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 18:59:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lorentz pumps In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I have been very impressed with the Grundfos SQFlex pumps. I have installed several of them over the last 6 or 7 years, and I haven't seen any issues yet. I've had way better success with them than with the sun pumps for wells. They are extremely versatile, efficient, and seemingly fantastic quality. I've heard great things about the Lorentz pumps, but I haven't used them so I can't offer any comparisons. I get an awesome price for Grundfos from my regional distributor which is Delco Western. I've looked into a few other wholesale places, and they can't seem to touch Delco Western's prices. If you want more info on the Grundfos, you can contact me off-list, and I'll give you my pricing and any info you may want. Thanks, Kienan ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of John Blittersdorf Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lorentz pumps Jay, I have one on my own well 480’ down a 800’ deep well. At the time, they could only handle 500’ but since then have one that can pump from 1000’ and more. I only sold a few. I did have to replace the circuit board on the controller a couple of years ago and delt with a Lorentz dealer which seems to be the major one located in Texas. Overall, I have been impressed with the pump. It turns 17 Year’s old this year and started out as a direct solar pump with 4 100 watt panels but I later connected it to a 48 volt system when a cabin was built near the wellhead. John Blittersdorf Solar guru at Rob Stubbins Electrical And Solar Contractors. On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 3:39 PM jay > wrote: HI All, I’ve got a client asking me about Lorentz pumps. I know they have sort of come and gone from the USA. Is anyone using them, have any pros/cons vs Grundfos and where to get them? thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Fri Mar 2 16:23:43 2018 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 21:23:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters References: <204992430.9530569.1520025823878.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <204992430.9530569.1520025823878@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Wrenches, I have a customer with a low slope roof supported by TJI beams. Does anyone have experience permitting and installing on TJIs? I'm curious if jurisdictions are requiring Structural Engineer stamps. Since the top chord of the beams is only 1 3/8" thick should we be using shorter lag bolts for these installations? It also seems that it would be undesirable to penetrate into the web of the beam. Any advice would be appreciated here. Thank you, Jerry Caldwell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Mar 2 21:18:53 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 18:18:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters In-Reply-To: <204992430.9530569.1520025823878@mail.yahoo.com> References: <204992430.9530569.1520025823878.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <204992430.9530569.1520025823878@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <282efe35-09f6-b54e-1914-9a071fa1bbdd@psln.com> Jerry,             Metal roof? comp? tile? Bill On 3/2/2018 1:23 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: > Dear Wrenches, > > I have a customer with a low slope roof supported by TJI beams. Does > anyone have experience permitting and installing on TJIs? I'm curious > if jurisdictions are requiring Structural Engineer stamps. > > Since the top chord of the beams is only 1 3/8" thick should we be > using shorter lag bolts for these installations? It also seems that it > would be undesirable to penetrate into the web of the beam. > > Any advice would be appreciated here. > > Thank you, > > Jerry Caldwell > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 22:00:29 2018 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 19:00:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters In-Reply-To: <282efe35-09f6-b54e-1914-9a071fa1bbdd@psln.com> References: <204992430.9530569.1520025823878.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <204992430.9530569.1520025823878@mail.yahoo.com> <282efe35-09f6-b54e-1914-9a071fa1bbdd@psln.com> Message-ID: We have done different things, but simple solution is to add blocking and lag into that instead and avoid the TJI's. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Mar 2, 2018, at 6:18 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Jerry, > > Metal roof? comp? tile? > > Bill > >> On 3/2/2018 1:23 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: >> Dear Wrenches, >> >> I have a customer with a low slope roof supported by TJI beams. Does anyone have experience permitting and installing on TJIs? I'm curious if jurisdictions are requiring Structural Engineer stamps. >> >> Since the top chord of the beams is only 1 3/8" thick should we be using shorter lag bolts for these installations? It also seems that it would be undesirable to penetrate into the web of the beam. >> >> Any advice would be appreciated here. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Jerry Caldwell >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Mar 2 23:53:16 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2018 23:53:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters Message-ID: We have had to install blocking between TJI beams and anchor to them.Piercing the top member was a no-no. GlennSent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typographical errors. ------ Original message------From: frenergyDate: Fri, Mar 2, 2018 9:18 PMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters Jerry,             Metal roof? comp? tile? Bill On 3/2/2018 1:23 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: Dear Wrenches, I have a customer with a low slope roof supported by TJI beams. Does anyone have experience permitting and installing on TJIs? I'm curious if jurisdictions are requiring Structural Engineer stamps. Since the top chord of the beams is only 1 3/8" thick should we be using shorter lag bolts for these installations? It also seems that it would be undesirable to penetrate into the web of the beam. Any advice would be appreciated here. Thank you, Jerry Caldwell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net Virus-free. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sat Mar 3 07:30:35 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel at entech-engineering.com) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2018 07:30:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9178beac0e47bf64106dbe3f303eba57@entech-engineering.com> I am pretty sure if you look a the TJI specifications for holes and notching you have just about zero options when it comes to using them to resist an array's uplift. Blocking is about the only option unless you use the attachment method that secures each module to the roof's plywood sheathing. Chris On 2018-03-02 23:53, Glenn Burt wrote: > We have had to install blocking between TJI beams and anchor to them. > Piercing the top member was a no-no. > > _Glenn_ > _Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typographical errors._ > > ------ Original message------ > FROM: frenergy > DATE: Fri, Mar 2, 2018 9:18 PM > TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org; > CC: > SUBJECT:Re: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters > > Jerry, > > Metal roof? comp? tile? > > Bill > On 3/2/2018 1:23 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: > >> Dear Wrenches, >> >> I have a customer with a low slope roof supported by TJI beams. Does anyone have experience permitting and installing on TJIs? I'm curious if jurisdictions are requiring Structural Engineer stamps. >> >> Since the top chord of the beams is only 1 3/8" thick should we be using shorter lag bolts for these installations? It also seems that it would be undesirable to penetrate into the web of the beam. >> >> Any advice would be appreciated here. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Jerry Caldwell >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] > > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net [3] > > [4] > Virus-free. www.avast.com [5] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] http://www.frenergy.net [4] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon [5] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Mar 3 12:52:41 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 09:52:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters In-Reply-To: <204992430.9530569.1520025823878@mail.yahoo.com> References: <204992430.9530569.1520025823878.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <204992430.9530569.1520025823878@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4f6721059056ed6a3c4293de8381a52e@mail.gmail.com> Jerry: We have successfully used the DPW EZ-feet on sheet metal, cathedral roofs with TJI rafters. The cathedral roof made it impossible to install blocking. The EZ-feet is supposedly rated to screw solely to roof sheeting. When we first investigated the product, we discovered the fasteners recommended were not properly rated for sheeting thickness ranges. I understand DPW corrected this. Nonetheless, we used the EZ feet and used longer sheet metal screws where the foot landed over the TJI. This way we were not using fasteners quite as large in diameter as a lag and we gained the rating for the screws into sheeting that don’t lie over the rafter. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jerry Caldwell *Sent:* Friday, March 02, 2018 1:24 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters Dear Wrenches, I have a customer with a low slope roof supported by TJI beams. Does anyone have experience permitting and installing on TJIs? I'm curious if jurisdictions are requiring Structural Engineer stamps. Since the top chord of the beams is only 1 3/8" thick should we be using shorter lag bolts for these installations? It also seems that it would be undesirable to penetrate into the web of the beam. Any advice would be appreciated here. Thank you, Jerry Caldwell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Mar 3 15:45:59 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 13:45:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters In-Reply-To: <4f6721059056ed6a3c4293de8381a52e@mail.gmail.com> References: <204992430.9530569.1520025823878.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <204992430.9530569.1520025823878@mail.yahoo.com> <4f6721059056ed6a3c4293de8381a52e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I can see that the TJI manu doesn't want us blowing 3/8" lags through the top chord of their engineered system.  On the other hand, it IS designed to have nails and at least deck screws put into it, as that's how the builder attaches the roof decking.  It seems that William's measured approach is (as usual) good advice. I think that multiple 1/4" lags with predilled holes might be acceptable, but that would be up to the engineers and AHJ.  My issue with the EZ feet is that you are entirely dependent on how well the roof decking was installed.  Nails and construction staples don't have great pull out resistance, so I would hope that the builder uses some type of rated screws to attach the decking. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/3/18 10:52 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Jerry: > > We have successfully used the DPW EZ-feet on sheet metal, cathedral > roofs with TJI rafters.  The cathedral roof made it impossible to > install blocking. > > The EZ-feet is supposedly rated to screw solely to roof sheeting.  > When we first investigated the product, we discovered the fasteners > recommended were not properly rated for sheeting thickness ranges.  I > understand DPW corrected this. > > Nonetheless, we used the EZ feet and used longer sheet metal screws > where the foot landed over the TJI. This way we were not using > fasteners quite as large in diameter as a lag and we gained the rating > for the screws into sheeting that don’t lie over the rafter. > > William Miller > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Jerry Caldwell > *Sent:* Friday, March 02, 2018 1:24 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters > > Dear Wrenches, > > I have a customer with a low slope roof supported by TJI beams. Does > anyone have experience permitting and installing on TJIs? I'm curious > if jurisdictions are requiring Structural Engineer stamps. > > Since the top chord of the beams is only 1 3/8" thick should we be > using shorter lag bolts for these installations? It also seems that it > would be undesirable to penetrate into the web of the beam. > > Any advice would be appreciated here. > > Thank you, > > Jerry Caldwell > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat Mar 3 17:26:23 2018 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 14:26:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters In-Reply-To: References: <204992430.9530569.1520025823878.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <204992430.9530569.1520025823878@mail.yahoo.com> <4f6721059056ed6a3c4293de8381a52e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5f8f83dc-2cc1-43e8-1aa1-a692b567762c@berkeleysolar.com> If you can take multiple 1/4" lags, you can consider the Hollaender Speed Rail square flange. I have used this to built steel pipe rack, then attaching solar rail to the pipe with u-bolts. On 3/3/2018 12:45 PM, Ray wrote: > > I can see that the TJI manu doesn't want us blowing 3/8" lags through > the top chord of their engineered system.  On the other hand, it IS > designed to have nails and at least deck screws put into it, as that's > how the builder attaches the roof decking. It seems that William's > measured approach is (as usual) good advice.  I think that multiple > 1/4" lags with predilled holes might be acceptable, but that would be > up to the engineers and AHJ.  My issue with the EZ feet is that you > are entirely dependent on how well the roof decking was installed.  > Nails and construction staples don't have great pull out resistance, > so I would hope that the builder uses some type of rated screws to > attach the decking. > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 18:02:48 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 13:02:48 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters In-Reply-To: <5f8f83dc-2cc1-43e8-1aa1-a692b567762c@berkeleysolar.com> References: <204992430.9530569.1520025823878.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <204992430.9530569.1520025823878@mail.yahoo.com> <4f6721059056ed6a3c4293de8381a52e@mail.gmail.com> <5f8f83dc-2cc1-43e8-1aa1-a692b567762c@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches We have had success with sunmodo mounts, they have 5 mounting holes, you may want to talk directly with them Jerry On Mar 3, 2018 12:26 PM, "Mark Frye" wrote: > If you can take multiple 1/4" lags, you can consider the Hollaender Speed > Rail square flange. I have used this to built steel pipe rack, then > attaching solar rail to the pipe with u-bolts. > > > On 3/3/2018 12:45 PM, Ray wrote: > >> >> I can see that the TJI manu doesn't want us blowing 3/8" lags through the >> top chord of their engineered system. On the other hand, it IS designed to >> have nails and at least deck screws put into it, as that's how the builder >> attaches the roof decking. It seems that William's measured approach is (as >> usual) good advice. I think that multiple 1/4" lags with predilled holes >> might be acceptable, but that would be up to the engineers and AHJ. My >> issue with the EZ feet is that you are entirely dependent on how well the >> roof decking was installed. Nails and construction staples don't have >> great pull out resistance, so I would hope that the builder uses some type >> of rated screws to attach the decking. >> >> Ray Walters >> >> Remote Solar >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Sat Mar 3 19:54:19 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 16:54:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters In-Reply-To: <204992430.9530569.1520025823878@mail.yahoo.com> References: <204992430.9530569.1520025823878.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <204992430.9530569.1520025823878@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi All - We tie into TJIs commonly, if you Google "TJI solar" you'll find manufacturer docs on how to properly lag in. August On Mar 2, 2018 1:24 PM, "Jerry Caldwell" wrote: > Dear Wrenches, > > I have a customer with a low slope roof supported by TJI beams. Does > anyone have experience permitting and installing on TJIs? I'm curious if > jurisdictions are requiring Structural Engineer stamps. > > Since the top chord of the beams is only 1 3/8" thick should we be using > shorter lag bolts for these installations? It also seems that it would be > undesirable to penetrate into the web of the beam. > > Any advice would be appreciated here. > > Thank you, > > Jerry Caldwell > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reosolar at gmail.com Sun Mar 4 09:44:18 2018 From: reosolar at gmail.com (Aaron Mandelkorn) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 07:44:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters In-Reply-To: References: <204992430.9530569.1520025823878.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <204992430.9530569.1520025823878@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have also used the sunmoto mounts with the multiple holes. They are called the AL shoe I believe. It makes a great alternative to the DPW ez foot which are very expensive and take forever to receive. We but butal mastic tape on the back. Just like the ez foot. Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 On Mar 3, 2018 5:54 PM, "August Goers" wrote: > Hi All - We tie into TJIs commonly, if you Google "TJI solar" you'll find > manufacturer docs on how to properly lag in. > > August > > On Mar 2, 2018 1:24 PM, "Jerry Caldwell" wrote: > >> Dear Wrenches, >> >> I have a customer with a low slope roof supported by TJI beams. Does >> anyone have experience permitting and installing on TJIs? I'm curious if >> jurisdictions are requiring Structural Engineer stamps. >> >> Since the top chord of the beams is only 1 3/8" thick should we be using >> shorter lag bolts for these installations? It also seems that it would be >> undesirable to penetrate into the web of the beam. >> >> Any advice would be appreciated here. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Jerry Caldwell >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Sun Mar 4 16:15:36 2018 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2018 13:15:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We've done roof mount pv on tji's. Our engineer required 4x blocking installed between the tji rafters that we lag bolted into. You're not allowed to cut or drill/bolt into the top and bottom cords of the tji's. We also packed out both sides of the tji plywood webbing prior to installing the blocking. Our snow loads oftentimes are too high and won't allow me to screw into the plywood roof deck only.  Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com 530-448-9692on my Samsung Galaxy S7. -------- Original message --------From: Aaron Mandelkorn Date: 3/4/18 6:44 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters I have also used the sunmoto mounts with the multiple holes. They are called the AL shoe I believe.  It makes a great alternative to the DPW ez foot which are very expensive and take forever to receive.  We but butal mastic tape on the back.  Just like the ez foot.   Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744     On Mar 3, 2018 5:54 PM, "August Goers" wrote: Hi All - We tie into TJIs commonly, if you Google "TJI solar" you'll find manufacturer docs on how to properly lag in. August On Mar 2, 2018 1:24 PM, "Jerry Caldwell" wrote: Dear Wrenches, I have a customer with a low slope roof supported by TJI beams. Does anyone have experience permitting and installing on TJIs? I'm curious if jurisdictions are requiring Structural Engineer stamps. Since the top chord of the beams is only 1 3/8" thick should we be using shorter lag bolts for these installations? It also seems that it would be undesirable to penetrate into the web of the beam. Any advice would be appreciated here. Thank you, Jerry Caldwell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Tue Mar 6 18:57:04 2018 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 23:57:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters In-Reply-To: <20180304211951.18558107178@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180304211951.18558107178@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <361120984.12220039.1520380624303@mail.yahoo.com> Bill, Mineral bitumen roll roofing. 2:12 slope. Everyone who gave input below, thanks for the suggestions. I've decided to go with the Quick Mount Q-Base product. It allows you to get 2 lag bolts into the top chord on either side of the OSB web. Cheers,Jerry Caldwell On Sunday, March 4, 2018, 1:19:51 PM PST, Chris Worcester wrote: We've done roof mount pv on tji's. Our engineer required 4x blocking installed between the tji rafters that we lag bolted into. You're not allowed to cut or drill/bolt into the top and bottom cords of the tji's. We also packed out both sides of the tji plywood webbing prior to installing the blocking. Our snow loads oftentimes are too high and won't allow me to screw into the plywood roof deck only.  Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com 530-448-9692on my Samsung Galaxy S7. -------- Original message --------From: Aaron Mandelkorn Date: 3/4/18 6:44 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters I have also used the sunmoto mounts with the multiple holes. They are called the AL shoe I believe.  It makes a great alternative to the DPW ez foot which are very expensive and take forever to receive.  We but butal mastic tape on the back.  Just like the ez foot.   Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744     On Mar 3, 2018 5:54 PM, "August Goers" wrote: Hi All - We tie into TJIs commonly, if you Google "TJI solar" you'll find manufacturer docs on how to properly lag in. August On Mar 2, 2018 1:24 PM, "Jerry Caldwell" wrote: Dear Wrenches, I have a customer with a low slope roof supported by TJI beams. Does anyone have experience permitting and installing on TJIs? I'm curious if jurisdictions are requiring Structural Engineer stamps. Since the top chord of the beams is only 1 3/8" thick should we be using shorter lag bolts for these installations? It also seems that it would be undesirable to penetrate into the web of the beam. Any advice would be appreciated here. Thank you, Jerry Caldwell ______________________________ _________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/o ptions.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wren ches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or g/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette. htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________ _________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/ options.cgi/re-wrenches-re- wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette. htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Mar 6 22:28:05 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 19:28:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters In-Reply-To: <361120984.12220039.1520380624303@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20180304211951.18558107178@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <361120984.12220039.1520380624303@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7ab1c9e4-583b-bdbd-30e2-3aa196a7f7a4@psln.com> Jerry,             The only thing I feel compelled to add with your decision would be dang sure to pre-drill AND I sure wouldn't be putting a 3/8" lag into a TJI flange, maybe 1/4" Simpson lags? or tech screws? Bill Feather River Solar Electric On 3/6/2018 3:57 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: > Bill, > > Mineral bitumen roll roofing. 2:12 slope. > > Everyone who gave input below, thanks for the suggestions. > > I've decided to go with the Quick Mount Q-Base product. It allows you > to get 2 lag bolts into the top chord on either side of the OSB web. > > Cheers, > Jerry Caldwell > > On Sunday, March 4, 2018, 1:19:51 PM PST, Chris Worcester > wrote: > > > We've done roof mount pv on tji's. Our engineer required 4x blocking > installed between the tji rafters that we lag bolted into. You're not > allowed to cut or drill/bolt into the top and bottom cords of the > tji's. We also packed out both sides of the tji plywood webbing prior > to installing the blocking. Our snow loads oftentimes are too high and > won't allow me to screw into the plywood roof deck only. > > > > Chris Worcester >  chris at solarwindworks.com >  530-448-9692 > on my Samsung Galaxy S7. > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Aaron Mandelkorn > Date: 3/4/18 6:44 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters > > I have also used the sunmoto mounts with the multiple holes. They are > called the AL shoe I believe.  It makes a great alternative to the DPW > ez foot which are very expensive and take forever to receive.  We but > butal mastic tape on the back.  Just like the ez foot. > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > > On Mar 3, 2018 5:54 PM, "August Goers" > wrote: > > Hi All - We tie into TJIs commonly, if you Google "TJI solar" > you'll find manufacturer docs on how to properly lag in. > > August > > On Mar 2, 2018 1:24 PM, "Jerry Caldwell" > wrote: > > Dear Wrenches, > > I have a customer with a low slope roof supported by TJI > beams. Does anyone have experience permitting and installing > on TJIs? I'm curious if jurisdictions are requiring Structural > Engineer stamps. > > Since the top chord of the beams is only 1 3/8" thick should > we be using shorter lag bolts for these installations? It also > seems that it would be undesirable to penetrate into the web > of the beam. > > Any advice would be appreciated here. > > Thank you, > > Jerry Caldwell > > ______________________________ _________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/o ptions.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wren > ches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re > -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette > . htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ______________________________ _________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/ options.cgi/re-wrenches-re- > wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/ > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette. htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewsirum at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 03:50:17 2018 From: matthewsirum at gmail.com (Matthew Sirum) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 03:50:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters Message-ID: Greetings Jerry, I believe I remember reading some Trus Joist technical documentation which indicated no more than one hole should be drilled or lag screw/bolt driven into any cross sectional area of the top flange. If using the Quick Mount Q-Base with two lag screws/bolts, will you be orienting the Q-Base so that the two lags are in line vertically with each other or side by side?... Seems like side by side (straddling the web) may not be a good approach. Staggered vertically (straddling the web) may be alright if the size of the holes and lags are appropriate for the top flange dimensions and can be installed where allowed by the rafter/joist manufacturer's specifications. I hope you are able to accurately identify the rafter/joist manufacturer and the rafter/joist model so you can reach out to them for guidance on what are and are not acceptable attachment methods for their product. Other thoughts: If access to the underside of the roof structure allows, installing appropriate blocking with proper hangers and fasteners would likely be a more robust way to go. I have looked into using stainless steel j-bolts to hook the underside of the rafter members in situations like this as well; the rest of the install from the top side is just like working with hanger bolts. If the roof decking/sheathing and its attachment fasteners and schedule are all known and sufficient, a multi-fastener deck mount type mounting product may possibly be an appropriate and labor/time saving option. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com ---------- Original Message Below ---------- [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters Jerry Caldwell solarcowboy at yahoo.com Tue Mar 6 15:57:04 PST 2018 Bill, Mineral bitumen roll roofing. 2:12 slope. Everyone who gave input below, thanks for the suggestions. I've decided to go with the Quick Mount Q-Base product. It allows you to get 2 lag bolts into the top chord on either side of the OSB web. Cheers,Jerry Caldwell From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Wed Mar 7 09:43:22 2018 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 06:43:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is possible according to Weyerhaeuser. On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 12:50 AM, Matthew Sirum wrote: > Greetings Jerry, > > I believe I remember reading some Trus Joist technical documentation > which indicated no more than one hole should be drilled or lag > screw/bolt driven into any cross sectional area of the top flange. If > using the Quick Mount Q-Base with two lag screws/bolts, will you be > orienting the Q-Base so that the two lags are in line vertically with > each other or side by side?... Seems like side by side (straddling > the web) may not be a good approach. Staggered vertically (straddling > the web) may be alright if the size of the holes and lags are > appropriate for the top flange dimensions and can be installed where > allowed by the rafter/joist manufacturer's specifications. > > I hope you are able to accurately identify the rafter/joist > manufacturer and the rafter/joist model so you can reach out to them > for guidance on what are and are not acceptable attachment methods for > their product. > > Other thoughts: > If access to the underside of the roof structure allows, installing > appropriate blocking with proper hangers and fasteners would likely be > a more robust way to go. > I have looked into using stainless steel j-bolts to hook the underside > of the rafter members in situations like this as well; the rest of the > install from the top side is just like working with hanger bolts. > If the roof decking/sheathing and its attachment fasteners and > schedule are all known and sufficient, a multi-fastener deck mount > type mounting product may possibly be an appropriate and labor/time > saving option. > > Best regards, > > ----MATT > > Matthew Sirum > P.O. Box 1227 > Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA > phone: +1.413.773.0611 > email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com > > > ---------- Original Message Below ---------- > > [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters > Jerry Caldwell solarcowboy at yahoo.com > Tue Mar 6 15:57:04 PST 2018 > > Bill, > Mineral bitumen roll roofing. 2:12 slope. > Everyone who gave input below, thanks for the suggestions. > I've decided to go with the Quick Mount Q-Base product. It allows you > to get 2 lag bolts into the top chord on either side of the OSB web. > Cheers,Jerry Caldwell > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Lorenzo Ortiz Commercial PV Designer* lorenzo at cal-solar.com* (530) 274-3671* -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: TJI-Solar Attachment.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 204247 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Mar 6 19:51:19 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 16:51:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] tesla solar roof tiles Message-ID: OK all, I have a question about their tile roofs. Anyone know if they are set up for module level shut down? Or anybody have any anything about them? And I heard that they are advertising for installers, ie they are starting a new not Solar city install company? Comments? thx jay From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 12:21:35 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 10:21:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] tesla solar roof tiles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay; all I know is that a few of my recently graduated students who are already Solar City employee PV installers have been training in California for solar roof installs. Tesla is notoriously tight-lipped about anything, like product specifications, temperature coefficients, anything that would help anyone not already in their back pocket. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 5:51 PM, jay wrote: > OK all, > > I have a question about their tile roofs. > > Anyone know if they are set up for module level shut down? > Or anybody have any anything about them? > > And I heard that they are advertising for installers, ie they are starting > a new not Solar city install company? > > Comments? > > thx > jay > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Wed Mar 7 14:00:55 2018 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 19:00:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1444048573.12802986.1520449255413@mail.yahoo.com> Matt, I was not aware that one shouldn't place the lags directly across from each other. Thanks for the advice. Jerry Caldwell On Wednesday, March 7, 2018, 6:44:12 AM PST, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: It is possible according to Weyerhaeuser. On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 12:50 AM, Matthew Sirum wrote: Greetings Jerry, I believe I remember reading some Trus Joist technical documentation which indicated no more than one hole should be drilled or lag screw/bolt driven into any cross sectional area of the top flange.  If using the Quick Mount Q-Base with two lag screws/bolts, will you be orienting the Q-Base so that the two lags are in line vertically with each other or side by side?...  Seems like side by side (straddling the web) may not be a good approach.  Staggered vertically (straddling the web) may be alright if the size of the holes and lags are appropriate for the top flange dimensions and can be installed where allowed by the rafter/joist manufacturer's specifications. I hope you are able to accurately identify the rafter/joist manufacturer and the rafter/joist model so you can reach out to them for guidance on what are and are not acceptable attachment methods for their product. Other thoughts: If access to the underside of the roof structure allows, installing appropriate blocking with proper hangers and fasteners would likely be a more robust way to go. I have looked into using stainless steel j-bolts to hook the underside of the rafter members in situations like this as well; the rest of the install from the top side is just like working with hanger bolts. If the roof decking/sheathing and its attachment fasteners and schedule are all known and sufficient, a multi-fastener deck mount type mounting product may possibly be an appropriate and labor/time saving option. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227  USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com     ----------  Original Message Below  ---------- [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters Jerry Caldwell solarcowboy at yahoo.com Tue Mar 6 15:57:04 PST 2018 Bill, Mineral bitumen roll roofing. 2:12 slope. Everyone who gave input below, thanks for the suggestions. I've decided to go with the Quick Mount Q-Base product. It allows you to get 2 lag bolts into the top chord on either side of the OSB web. Cheers,Jerry Caldwell ______________________________ _________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/ options.cgi/re-wrenches-re- wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette. htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Lorenzo Ortiz   Commercial PV Designer     lorenzo at cal-solar.com  (530) 274-3671  _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 13:26:17 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 10:26:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UPS no load draw Message-ID: <51977F1E-0D7B-4B2B-B8B8-5D575BA73DF2@gmail.com> HI All, I’ve got someone asking me about powering a UPS model Liebert GXT4 UPS its a rack mounted unit. And I cannot find any power usage data on it. Would anyone maybe be able to hazard a guess or know a similar product that might have some numbers? And as I”m not familiar with this kind of product I just don’t have any ideas of power consumption. thanks jay peltz Power From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 14:42:22 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 09:42:22 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stuck in a furl Message-ID: Hello wrenches, I have a client with an older Whisper 200, 1 kW wind turbine. We didn't install this but have taken over the site maintenance since the original installer left town. The site recently experienced prolonged relatively high winds for 3-4 days. After that, he went out and noticed that the tail is stuck in the side-furling position. I'm not very familiar with this turbine or wind turbines in general, but looking at a manual, it looks like we may need a new bushing or maybe even a new casting. Does anyone have any idea where I could order parts for this turbine? Is there a suitable replacement turbine we should be looking at? At last check, the turbine was putting out good power and passed all electrical checks. Thanks in advance for your expertise -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 138966 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Mar 7 15:06:00 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 13:06:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stuck in a furl In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70E661AD-262F-4309-9AFD-F30167EDBE36@starlightsolar.com> Mac, A company called Luminous Renewable Energy Solutions Pvt. Ltd. had taken over the SWWP line. My last email with them was in 2013. I notice that their website is not up but perhaps they sold or changed something. http://www.luminousrenewable.com/ email rsen at luminousrenewable.com Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 7, 2018, at 12:42 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hello wrenches, I have a client with an older Whisper 200, 1 kW wind turbine. We didn't install this but have taken over the site maintenance since the original installer left town. The site recently experienced prolonged relatively high winds for 3-4 days. After that, he went out and noticed that the tail is stuck in the side-furling position. I'm not very familiar with this turbine or wind turbines in general, but looking at a manual, it looks like we may need a new bushing or maybe even a new casting. Does anyone have any idea where I could order parts for this turbine? Is there a suitable replacement turbine we should be looking at? At last check, the turbine was putting out good power and passed all electrical checks. Thanks in advance for your expertise Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 15:06:28 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 16:06:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UPS no load draw In-Reply-To: <51977F1E-0D7B-4B2B-B8B8-5D575BA73DF2@gmail.com> References: <51977F1E-0D7B-4B2B-B8B8-5D575BA73DF2@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's 10KVA, what else do you need to know? On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 2:26 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’ve got someone asking me about powering a UPS model > > Liebert GXT4 UPS > > its a rack mounted unit. > > And I cannot find any power usage data on it. > > Would anyone maybe be able to hazard a guess or know a similar product > that might have some numbers? > > And as I”m not familiar with this kind of product I just don’t have any > ideas of power consumption. > > thanks > > jay > > peltz Power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Mar 7 15:55:58 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 13:55:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stuck in a furl In-Reply-To: <70E661AD-262F-4309-9AFD-F30167EDBE36@starlightsolar.com> References: <70E661AD-262F-4309-9AFD-F30167EDBE36@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <7325fa1d-efa7-b734-04a4-07a7b4c74868@solarray.com> Primus Wind Power took over the Air X line, but they aren't doing the Whisper equipment. Ray Remote Solar On 3/7/18 1:06 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > Mac, > > A company called Luminous Renewable Energy Solutions Pvt. Ltd. had taken over the SWWP line. My last email with them was in 2013. I notice that their website is not up but perhaps they sold or changed something. > > http://www.luminousrenewable.com/ > email rsen at luminousrenewable.com > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > On Mar 7, 2018, at 12:42 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello wrenches, > > I have a client with an older Whisper 200, 1 kW wind turbine. We didn't install this but have taken over the site maintenance since the original installer left town. The site recently experienced prolonged relatively high winds for 3-4 days. After that, he went out and noticed that the tail is stuck in the side-furling position. > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with this turbine or wind turbines in general, but looking at a manual, it looks like we may need a new bushing or maybe even a new casting. Does anyone have any idea where I could order parts for this turbine? Is there a suitable replacement turbine we should be looking at? At last check, the turbine was putting out good power and passed all electrical checks. > > Thanks in advance for your expertise > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Mar 7 16:44:55 2018 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 21:44:55 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stuck in a furl In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ‭+1 (519) 955-1243‬ Chris Meier Farm energy Inc.-Canada Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! On Mar 7, 2018, at 12:42 PM, Mac Lewis > wrote: Hello wrenches, I have a client with an older Whisper 200, 1 kW wind turbine. We didn't install this but have taken over the site maintenance since the original installer left town. The site recently experienced prolonged relatively high winds for 3-4 days. After that, he went out and noticed that the tail is stuck in the side-furling position. I'm not very familiar with this turbine or wind turbines in general, but looking at a manual, it looks like we may need a new bushing or maybe even a new casting. Does anyone have any idea where I could order parts for this turbine? Is there a suitable replacement turbine we should be looking at? At last check, the turbine was putting out good power and passed all electrical checks. Thanks in advance for your expertise -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 138966 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 17:56:59 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 16:56:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stuck in a furl In-Reply-To: <70E661AD-262F-4309-9AFD-F30167EDBE36@starlightsolar.com> References: <70E661AD-262F-4309-9AFD-F30167EDBE36@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Mac I have had a similar experience. But I am not saying the same. The turbine has a nacelle that splits to furl. When we took down to repair the pivot pin hole in the case was so worn it needed to be re-bored and fitted with a bushing. I could not find a machine shop to do it because the Nacelle has no alignment fixtures. The yaw bearing was also bad. I reported to the customer and suggested he check with Pika as they had a small turbine that might work. I do not know what the customer ended up doing, I think he just added more solar. On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Mac, > > A company called Luminous Renewable Energy Solutions Pvt. Ltd. had taken > over the SWWP line. My last email with them was in 2013. I notice that > their website is not up but perhaps they sold or changed something. > > http://www.luminousrenewable.com/ > email rsen at luminousrenewable.com > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > On Mar 7, 2018, at 12:42 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello wrenches, > > I have a client with an older Whisper 200, 1 kW wind turbine. We didn't > install this but have taken over the site maintenance since the original > installer left town. The site recently experienced prolonged relatively > high winds for 3-4 days. After that, he went out and noticed that the tail > is stuck in the side-furling position. > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with this turbine or wind turbines in general, but > looking at a manual, it looks like we may need a new bushing or maybe even > a new casting. Does anyone have any idea where I could order parts for > this turbine? Is there a suitable replacement turbine we should be looking > at? At last check, the turbine was putting out good power and passed all > electrical checks. > > Thanks in advance for your expertise > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 19:36:31 2018 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 18:36:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stuck in a furl In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11B52BD8-E6A7-46D5-90C0-0423D8CAE1B4@gmail.com> I ordered parts for our 1kW on campus a couple years ago. It was a hassle. I’ll check my records and send the company info. I can’t remember the name off the top of my head. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 7, 2018, at 3:44 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > > ‭+1 (519) 955-1243‬ > Chris Meier > Farm energy Inc.-Canada > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > On Mar 7, 2018, at 12:42 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hello wrenches, >> >> I have a client with an older Whisper 200, 1 kW wind turbine. We didn't install this but have taken over the site maintenance since the original installer left town. The site recently experienced prolonged relatively high winds for 3-4 days. After that, he went out and noticed that the tail is stuck in the side-furling position. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm not very familiar with this turbine or wind turbines in general, but looking at a manual, it looks like we may need a new bushing or maybe even a new casting. Does anyone have any idea where I could order parts for this turbine? Is there a suitable replacement turbine we should be looking at? At last check, the turbine was putting out good power and passed all electrical checks. >> >> Thanks in advance for your expertise >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 19:44:14 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 18:44:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stuck in a furl In-Reply-To: <11B52BD8-E6A7-46D5-90C0-0423D8CAE1B4@gmail.com> References: <11B52BD8-E6A7-46D5-90C0-0423D8CAE1B4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all Jesse I have seen your system, and it is a Bergy 1 kW. Mac has got a Southwest wind power unit. Unless you have a SWWP also that I have not seen? On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 6:36 PM, Solar wrote: > I ordered parts for our 1kW on campus a couple years ago. It was a hassle. > I’ll check my records and send the company info. I can’t remember the name > off the top of my head. > > Jesse Dahl > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 7, 2018, at 3:44 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: > > ‭+1 (519) 955-1243 <(519)%20955-1243>‬ > Chris Meier > Farm energy Inc.-Canada > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! > > On Mar 7, 2018, at 12:42 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello wrenches, > > I have a client with an older Whisper 200, 1 kW wind turbine. We didn't > install this but have taken over the site maintenance since the original > installer left town. The site recently experienced prolonged relatively > high winds for 3-4 days. After that, he went out and noticed that the tail > is stuck in the side-furling position. > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with this turbine or wind turbines in general, but > looking at a manual, it looks like we may need a new bushing or maybe even > a new casting. Does anyone have any idea where I could order parts for > this turbine? Is there a suitable replacement turbine we should be looking > at? At last check, the turbine was putting out good power and passed all > electrical checks. > > Thanks in advance for your expertise > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 19:48:31 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 17:48:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stuck in a furl In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The furl bearing and yaw bearing are common failure points with these turbines after years in the air. We have also observed there is no way to align replacements. We could have put in Delrin bushings for a few months more life, but we ended up building him a new turbine, a Hugh Piggott design and a new custom controller to replace the EZ-Fire controller....we could have re-used the EZ-Wire but simply didn't trust it, the new one is incredibly versatile, programmable and has communications capability. Contact me off list for more information about the controller or turbine. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello wrenches, > > I have a client with an older Whisper 200, 1 kW wind turbine. We didn't > install this but have taken over the site maintenance since the original > installer left town. The site recently experienced prolonged relatively > high winds for 3-4 days. After that, he went out and noticed that the tail > is stuck in the side-furling position. > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with this turbine or wind turbines in general, but > looking at a manual, it looks like we may need a new bushing or maybe even > a new casting. Does anyone have any idea where I could order parts for > this turbine? Is there a suitable replacement turbine we should be looking > at? At last check, the turbine was putting out good power and passed all > electrical checks. > > Thanks in advance for your expertise > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 138966 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Mar 7 21:51:30 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 20:51:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UPS no load draw In-Reply-To: <51977F1E-0D7B-4B2B-B8B8-5D575BA73DF2@gmail.com> References: <51977F1E-0D7B-4B2B-B8B8-5D575BA73DF2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay I have not worked on that unit, but I have worked on some other units. This a double conversion unit, it has double conversion, and I think you are talking of the 3000 VA unit. It has both a AC to Battery conversion and a Battery to AC conversion. So it has an efficiency and tare losses. Usually the AC to battery is the lower efficiency, The tare seems to be the same both ways. I expect your unit will be 40 to 80 watts Tare. This what I have found on other units. This unit may be better but I doubt it. On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 12:26 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’ve got someone asking me about powering a UPS model > > Liebert GXT4 UPS > > its a rack mounted unit. > > And I cannot find any power usage data on it. > > Would anyone maybe be able to hazard a guess or know a similar product > that might have some numbers? > > And as I”m not familiar with this kind of product I just don’t have any > ideas of power consumption. > > thanks > > jay > > peltz Power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Thu Mar 8 12:55:33 2018 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 17:55:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters In-Reply-To: <7ab1c9e4-583b-bdbd-30e2-3aa196a7f7a4@psln.com> References: <20180304211951.18558107178@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <361120984.12220039.1520380624303@mail.yahoo.com> <7ab1c9e4-583b-bdbd-30e2-3aa196a7f7a4@psln.com> Message-ID: <2059234230.13546202.1520531733152@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Bill, The Quick Mount QBase product comes with two 3"x5/16" lag bolts. I plan on using those. Best,Jerry Caldwell On Tuesday, March 6, 2018, 7:27:21 PM PST, frenergy wrote: Jerry,             The only thing I feel compelled to add with your decision would be dang sure to pre-drill AND I sure wouldn't be putting a 3/8" lag into a TJI flange, maybe 1/4" Simpson lags? or tech screws? Bill Feather River Solar Electric On 3/6/2018 3:57 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: Bill, Mineral bitumen roll roofing. 2:12 slope. Everyone who gave input below, thanks for the suggestions. I've decided to go with the Quick Mount Q-Base product. It allows you to get 2 lag bolts into the top chord on either side of the OSB web. Cheers, Jerry Caldwell On Sunday, March 4, 2018, 1:19:51 PM PST, Chris Worcester wrote: We've done roof mount pv on tji's. Our engineer required 4x blocking installed between the tji rafters that we lag bolted into. You're not allowed to cut or drill/bolt into the top and bottom cords of the tji's. We also packed out both sides of the tji plywood webbing prior to installing the blocking. Our snow loads oftentimes are too high and won't allow me to screw into the plywood roof deck only.  Chris Worcester  chris at solarwindworks.com  530-448-9692 on my Samsung Galaxy S7. -------- Original message -------- From: Aaron Mandelkorn Date: 3/4/18 6:44 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters I have also used the sunmoto mounts with the multiple holes. They are called the AL shoe I believe.  It makes a great alternative to the DPW ez foot which are very expensive and take forever to receive.  We but butal mastic tape on the back.  Just like the ez foot.   Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744     On Mar 3, 2018 5:54 PM, "August Goers" wrote: Hi All - We tie into TJIs commonly, if you Google "TJI solar" you'll find manufacturer docs on how to properly lag in. August On Mar 2, 2018 1:24 PM, "Jerry Caldwell" wrote: Dear Wrenches, I have a customer with a low slope roof supported by TJI beams. Does anyone have experience permitting and installing on TJIs? I'm curious if jurisdictions are requiring Structural Engineer stamps. Since the top chord of the beams is only 1 3/8" thick should we be using shorter lag bolts for these installations? It also seems that it would be undesirable to penetrate into the web of the beam. Any advice would be appreciated here. Thank you, Jerry Caldwell ______________________________ _________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/o ptions.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wren ches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or g/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette. htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________ _________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/ options.cgi/re-wrenches-re- wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette. htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 00:43:29 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 19:43:29 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico Message-ID: DarrelI put a request to allow the data to be released, expect to have an answer soonJerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Darryl Thayer Date: 2/21/18 10:28 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico Jerry, can we see the egauge results? On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 11:59 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: WrenchesWe have been doing testing on the Blue Ion over the last several months, we have been using PV, back up grid connected charger, we have CT's on DC in, PV in, Charger in, and Load out, some days we push to three cycles a day, other days 1/2 cycle. The Blue Ion BMU has done well keeping everything in control including a relay for the charger. Eguage has done all the monitoring and has some impressive data. Jerry On Feb 20, 2018 6:02 AM, "Kirpal" wrote: Larry....yes those are big claims (8000 cyclces at 100% DOD!)  No I don't have the data showing that, nor have I seen it.  But the marketing has to be accurate right?!  We have installed a few systems with a few more on the books including one at our office. Will be interesting to see if the real world matches the lab tests....I don't have a copy of their warranty but it is for 15 years and does allow for some degradation of capacity,  70% remaining after 15 years.  Pretty robust for a battery warranty!  From what I have seen they are a strong off grid option.  Could be one of the last battery banks some of our customers ever buy.  The visibility into cycle count and remaining capacity is refreshing after using various amp hour meters which tend to wander in accuracy over time.  I am looking forward to the migration away from Lead Acid in the years ahead!  Sunny Regards, Kirpal KhalsaOregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Hi Kirpal, “...8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge…” I saw that on their website but there is no substantiating data from real cycle life tests. When Sony introduced this battery, they claimed 2000 cycles at 80% DoD. For such an extraordinary claim, there must be a catch. Do you have any information about testing or a copy of their warranty? Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 19, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Kirpal wrote: Blue Planet - Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are a good option for off grid and work very well with the Outback Radian inverters.  They are rated at 8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of discharge and can be monitored remotely.  The batteries , like in the Sonnen system are made by Sony. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Mar 9 13:55:23 2018 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 18:55:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Insight Portal issues Message-ID: <04b506c3c20a4e0fac9c923cf96a85a3@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hello Wrenches, I am curious if others out there are using the Conext Insight Portal to monitor Schneider-based systems? I have been using this portal for a while now. When it works I find it very useful and fast to have a quick snapshot of system status. Lots faster than having to log into individual systems. However, recently the portal data has been very unreliable, and tech support is generally dismissive of my concerns. At present state, about half of my customer sites are displaying completely inaccurate information. At first glance there is nothing wildly abnormal about the data so you might think it is ok. Except it is all wrong it is as if it is displaying another site. I have submitted details of my findings to tech support, and to date they have not accepted that this is a problem. This started on March 7th. Some customers are getting irritated now. Curious if others are using this system and if you have had any similar issues. Which you may not notice unless you do the direct comparison between combox or other live data and portal data. Kevin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Mar 9 15:14:44 2018 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (maverick at mavericksolar.com) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 14:14:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Insight Portal issues In-Reply-To: <04b506c3c20a4e0fac9c923cf96a85a3@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <04b506c3c20a4e0fac9c923cf96a85a3@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <50449BF8-B899-4E89-B5BB-C93C31923D2F@mavericksolar.com> I hadn’t noticed, but I also hadn’t been cross checking. I can compare a couple sites to see if it is happening here. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 9, 2018, at 12:55 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I am curious if others out there are using the Conext Insight Portal to monitor Schneider-based systems? > > I have been using this portal for a while now. When it works I find it very useful and fast to have a quick snapshot of system status. Lots faster than having to log into individual systems. > > However, recently the portal data has been very unreliable, and tech support is generally dismissive of my concerns. At present state, about half of my customer sites are displaying completely inaccurate information. At first glance there is nothing wildly abnormal about the data so you might think it is ok. Except it is all wrong it is as if it is displaying another site. I have submitted details of my findings to tech support, and to date they have not accepted that this is a problem. This started on March 7th. Some customers are getting irritated now. > > Curious if others are using this system and if you have had any similar issues. Which you may not notice unless you do the direct comparison between combox or other live data and portal data. > > Kevin > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Mar 9 16:16:10 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 13:16:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Insight Portal issues In-Reply-To: <50449BF8-B899-4E89-B5BB-C93C31923D2F@mavericksolar.com> References: <04b506c3c20a4e0fac9c923cf96a85a3@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <50449BF8-B899-4E89-B5BB-C93C31923D2F@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <9c5a56110e6bf49b770ae88e50a2c1bd.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Kevin, I always thought you were Maverick? I attached a sreen shot from insight. I use it every day on about 15 systems that I "house sit". There always is a delay of up to 18 minutes or so. I have not had any problems and so I would say it is on your end. Try another computer and make sure all the firmware is up to date. Look at the combox events page and see if something is not right. It should reboot every night just after 3 am. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > I hadn’t noticed, but I also hadn’t been cross checking. I can compare > a couple sites to see if it is happening here. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 9, 2018, at 12:55 PM, Kevin Pegg >> wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I am curious if others out there are using the Conext Insight Portal to >> monitor Schneider-based systems? >> >> I have been using this portal for a while now. When it works I find it >> very useful and fast to have a quick snapshot of system status. Lots >> faster than having to log into individual systems. >> >> However, recently the portal data has been very unreliable, and tech >> support is generally dismissive of my concerns. At present state, about >> half of my customer sites are displaying completely inaccurate >> information. At first glance there is nothing wildly abnormal about the >> data so you might think it is ok. Except it is all wrong it is as if it >> is displaying another site. I have submitted details of my findings to >> tech support, and to date they have not accepted that this is a problem. >> This started on March 7th. Some customers are getting irritated now. >> >> Curious if others are using this system and if you have had any similar >> issues. Which you may not notice unless you do the direct comparison >> between combox or other live data and portal data. >> >> Kevin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Insight.PNG Type: image/png Size: 100858 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Mar 9 16:22:20 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 13:22:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would like to see how they determine the number of cycles, or the Life left in the battery? --Dave > > > DarrelI put a request to allow the data to be released, expect to have an > answer soonJerry > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Darryl Thayer > Date: 2/21/18 10:28 AM (GMT-10:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico > > Jerry, can we see the egauge results? > On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 11:59 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > WrenchesWe have been doing testing on the Blue Ion over the last several > months, we have been using PV, back up grid connected charger, we have > CT's on DC in, PV in, Charger in, and Load out, some days we push to three > cycles a day, other days 1/2 cycle. The Blue Ion BMU has done well keeping > everything in control including a relay for the charger. Eguage has done > all the monitoring and has some impressive data. Jerry > On Feb 20, 2018 6:02 AM, "Kirpal" wrote: > Larry....yes those are big claims (8000 cyclces at 100% DOD!)  No I don't > have the data showing that, nor have I seen it.  But the marketing has to > be accurate right?!  We have installed a few systems with a few more on > the books including one at our office. Will be interesting to see if the > real world matches the lab tests....I don't have a copy of their warranty > but it is for 15 years and does allow for some degradation of capacity,  > 70% remaining after 15 years.  Pretty robust for a battery warranty!  > From what I have seen they are a strong off grid option.  Could be one of > the last battery banks some of our customers ever buy.  The visibility > into cycle count and remaining capacity is refreshing after using various > amp hour meters which tend to wander in accuracy over time.  I am looking > forward to the migration away from Lead Acid in the years ahead!  > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal KhalsaOregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > > On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems > wrote: > Hi Kirpal, > “...8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of > discharge…” I saw that on their website but there is > no substantiating data from real cycle life tests. When Sony introduced > this battery, they claimed 2000 cycles at 80% DoD. For such > an extraordinary claim, there must be a catch. Do you have any > information about testing or a copy of their warranty? > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > > > On Feb 19, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Kirpal wrote: > > > Blue Planet - Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are a good option for off > grid and work very well with the Outback Radian inverters.  They are > rated at 8000 cycles (20+ years of daily cycling!!) to 100 depth of > discharge and can be monitored remotely.  The batteries , like in the > Sonnen system are made by > Sony._______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jamie.greenwired at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 16:46:33 2018 From: jamie.greenwired at gmail.com (Jamie Rennie) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 13:46:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Experience with Pacific Power Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I have a customer in Smith River, CA who is looking to do a commercial grid-tied project. Wondering if anyone has worked with Pacific Power and gone through their application and NEM process. Just hoping to gleen some insight before getting involved with this one. -- Respectfully, Jamie Rennie Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 F: 707-923-2077 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [image: Description: signature] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Mar 9 17:36:23 2018 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 22:36:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Insight Portal issues In-Reply-To: <9c5a56110e6bf49b770ae88e50a2c1bd.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <04b506c3c20a4e0fac9c923cf96a85a3@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <50449BF8-B899-4E89-B5BB-C93C31923D2F@mavericksolar.com> <9c5a56110e6bf49b770ae88e50a2c1bd.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: I think my issue was the particular tech rep I was attempting to work with. I resubmitted my case and got a new rep who's first response was: "I'm really sorry about the insight issues. There were major system updates done on the system last week which might have caused some data issues. The server team is investigating and I will keep you informed of the progress. If you can export a chart from one of the comboxes which does not match the insight data that would help us greatly. So I am working with them sending data showing the discrepancies between live data on the combox and the slightly delayed data on the portal. I urge any wrenches who are relying on the Insight portal presently to verify the data you are seeing is in fact correct. Right now about 1/2 the sites I monitor are incorrect. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: March-09-18 1:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext Insight Portal issues Kevin, I always thought you were Maverick? I attached a sreen shot from insight. I use it every day on about 15 systems that I "house sit". There always is a delay of up to 18 minutes or so. I have not had any problems and so I would say it is on your end. Try another computer and make sure all the firmware is up to date. Look at the combox events page and see if something is not right. It should reboot every night just after 3 am. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > I hadn’t noticed, but I also hadn’t been cross checking. I can > compare a couple sites to see if it is happening here. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 9, 2018, at 12:55 PM, Kevin Pegg >> wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I am curious if others out there are using the Conext Insight Portal >> to monitor Schneider-based systems? >> >> I have been using this portal for a while now. When it works I find >> it very useful and fast to have a quick snapshot of system status. >> Lots faster than having to log into individual systems. >> >> However, recently the portal data has been very unreliable, and tech >> support is generally dismissive of my concerns. At present state, >> about half of my customer sites are displaying completely inaccurate >> information. At first glance there is nothing wildly abnormal about >> the data so you might think it is ok. Except it is all wrong it is as >> if it is displaying another site. I have submitted details of my >> findings to tech support, and to date they have not accepted that this is a problem. >> This started on March 7th. Some customers are getting irritated now. >> >> Curious if others are using this system and if you have had any >> similar issues. Which you may not notice unless you do the direct >> comparison between combox or other live data and portal data. >> >> Kevin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis >> t.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Mar 9 18:36:05 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 15:36:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Insight Portal issues In-Reply-To: References: <04b506c3c20a4e0fac9c923cf96a85a3@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <50449BF8-B899-4E89-B5BB-C93C31923D2F@mavericksolar.com> <9c5a56110e6bf49b770ae88e50a2c1bd.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: I just do offgrid systems and so all I want to see was did the system finish charge yesterday, go to float, and the current load. If the site shows up on my map and everything is green, I am happy. What else are you looking for please? --Dave > I think my issue was the particular tech rep I was attempting to work > with. I resubmitted my case and got a new rep who's first response was: > > "I'm really sorry about the insight issues. There were major system > updates done on the system last week which might have caused some data > issues. The server team is investigating and I will keep you informed of > the progress. If you can export a chart from one of the comboxes which > does not match the insight data that would help us greatly. > > So I am working with them sending data showing the discrepancies between > live data on the combox and the slightly delayed data on the portal. > > I urge any wrenches who are relying on the Insight portal presently to > verify the data you are seeing is in fact correct. Right now about 1/2 the > sites I monitor are incorrect. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: March-09-18 1:16 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext Insight Portal issues > > Kevin, > > I always thought you were Maverick? I attached a sreen shot from > insight. > I use it every day on about 15 systems that I "house sit". > > There always is a delay of up to 18 minutes or so. I have not had any > problems and so I would say it is on your end. Try another computer and > make sure all the firmware is up to date. Look at the combox events page > and see if something is not right. It should reboot every night just > after > 3 am. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > >> I hadn’t noticed, but I also hadn’t been cross checking. I >> can >> compare a couple sites to see if it is happening here. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Mar 9, 2018, at 12:55 PM, Kevin Pegg >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> I am curious if others out there are using the Conext Insight Portal >>> to monitor Schneider-based systems? >>> >>> I have been using this portal for a while now. When it works I find >>> it very useful and fast to have a quick snapshot of system status. >>> Lots faster than having to log into individual systems. >>> >>> However, recently the portal data has been very unreliable, and tech >>> support is generally dismissive of my concerns. At present state, >>> about half of my customer sites are displaying completely inaccurate >>> information. At first glance there is nothing wildly abnormal about >>> the data so you might think it is ok. Except it is all wrong it is as >>> if it is displaying another site. I have submitted details of my >>> findings to tech support, and to date they have not accepted that this >>> is a problem. >>> This started on March 7th. Some customers are getting irritated now. >>> >>> Curious if others are using this system and if you have had any >>> similar issues. Which you may not notice unless you do the direct >>> comparison between combox or other live data and portal data. >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis >>> t.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Mar 9 21:22:31 2018 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 02:22:31 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Insight Portal issues In-Reply-To: References: <04b506c3c20a4e0fac9c923cf96a85a3@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <50449BF8-B899-4E89-B5BB-C93C31923D2F@mavericksolar.com> <9c5a56110e6bf49b770ae88e50a2c1bd.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: Hi Kevin, are all your sites up? I just noticed one that went down a little while ago and I'm trying to determine if it is an internet issue or something more serious. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher, LLC Solar Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner 802-272-0004 On Fri, Mar 9, 2018, 5:47 PM Kevin Pegg wrote: > I think my issue was the particular tech rep I was attempting to work > with. I resubmitted my case and got a new rep who's first response was: > > "I'm really sorry about the insight issues. There were major system > updates done on the system last week which might have caused some data > issues. The server team is investigating and I will keep you informed of > the progress. If you can export a chart from one of the comboxes which does > not match the insight data that would help us greatly. > > So I am working with them sending data showing the discrepancies between > live data on the combox and the slightly delayed data on the portal. > > I urge any wrenches who are relying on the Insight portal presently to > verify the data you are seeing is in fact correct. Right now about 1/2 the > sites I monitor are incorrect. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: March-09-18 1:16 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext Insight Portal issues > > Kevin, > > I always thought you were Maverick? I attached a sreen shot from insight. > I use it every day on about 15 systems that I "house sit". > > There always is a delay of up to 18 minutes or so. I have not had any > problems and so I would say it is on your end. Try another computer and > make sure all the firmware is up to date. Look at the combox events page > and see if something is not right. It should reboot every night just after > 3 am. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > > > I hadn’t noticed, but I also hadn’t been cross checking. I can > > compare a couple sites to see if it is happening here. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Mar 9, 2018, at 12:55 PM, Kevin Pegg > >> wrote: > >> > >> Hello Wrenches, > >> > >> I am curious if others out there are using the Conext Insight Portal > >> to monitor Schneider-based systems? > >> > >> I have been using this portal for a while now. When it works I find > >> it very useful and fast to have a quick snapshot of system status. > >> Lots faster than having to log into individual systems. > >> > >> However, recently the portal data has been very unreliable, and tech > >> support is generally dismissive of my concerns. At present state, > >> about half of my customer sites are displaying completely inaccurate > >> information. At first glance there is nothing wildly abnormal about > >> the data so you might think it is ok. Except it is all wrong it is as > >> if it is displaying another site. I have submitted details of my > >> findings to tech support, and to date they have not accepted that this > is a problem. > >> This started on March 7th. Some customers are getting irritated now. > >> > >> Curious if others are using this system and if you have had any > >> similar issues. Which you may not notice unless you do the direct > >> comparison between combox or other live data and portal data. > >> > >> Kevin > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis > >> t.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > > .html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Sat Mar 10 22:58:02 2018 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 03:58:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stuck in a furl In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac, Did you lower the turbine or try to do anything with it? I don't have a lot of experience with these but I did have one customer with the exact same turbine, and one time the tail got stuck in the furled position. I banged on the tower a bit and jiggled the guy wires vigorously and it came loose and straightened out, and it hasn't had any problems since. That time there was nothing wrong with it... it just got a little stuck. That may be totally different but it might give you a glimmer of hope. Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Mac Lewis Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 12:42 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Stuck in a furl Hello wrenches, I have a client with an older Whisper 200, 1 kW wind turbine. We didn't install this but have taken over the site maintenance since the original installer left town. The site recently experienced prolonged relatively high winds for 3-4 days. After that, he went out and noticed that the tail is stuck in the side-furling position. [cid:ii_jehhmqjl0_16201fa681cc1705] I'm not very familiar with this turbine or wind turbines in general, but looking at a manual, it looks like we may need a new bushing or maybe even a new casting. Does anyone have any idea where I could order parts for this turbine? Is there a suitable replacement turbine we should be looking at? At last check, the turbine was putting out good power and passed all electrical checks. Thanks in advance for your expertise -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 138966 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Mar 14 19:19:52 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 19:19:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person Message-ID: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of power that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater amount seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 gallon tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh / year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft sq building. Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. I think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount of hot water consumed would be the main issue. How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for electric hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. Thank you, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barton at solarips.com Wed Mar 14 19:31:05 2018 From: barton at solarips.com (Barton Churchill) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 17:31:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a delta to 100 or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers are typically 10 minutes. You can then find a calculator online to calculate how many Btus are required to raise water temp for your delta per gallon. Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you should be good. On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for > electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of power > that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater amount > seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 gallon > tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh / > year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft sq > building. > > Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. > > The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. I > think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount of hot > water consumed would be the main issue. > > How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for electric > hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > -- -- Barton Churchill 406.587.5295 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 www.solarips.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 22:14:54 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 21:14:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Sorry to say nothing, but a few years ago I did a study on off grid and on grid houses and some had electric resistance water heaters and one with a Heat pump water heater. If I can find the data I will send. However, it varied a lot most the families were for 2 or 3 people The variation made it seem like my study was of little value. except for the family with a heat pump water heater used about 1/4 the electricity of the other. On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 6:19 PM, wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for > electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of power > that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater amount > seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 gallon > tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh / > year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft sq > building. > > Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. > > The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. I > think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount of hot > water consumed would be the main issue. > > How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for electric > hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 02:34:21 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 20:34:21 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person Message-ID: DrakeWe have used 40 to 80 gallon water heaters mainly the Rheem Marathon electric units, we used 15 minutes per person twice a day on the timer, we did use 7 day timers to have different start times on the weekends. We had great success with that as a base line.Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Darryl Thayer Date: 3/14/18 4:14 PM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person Sorry to say nothing, but a few years ago I did a study on off grid and on grid houses and some had electric resistance water heaters and one with a Heat pump water heater.  If I can find the data I will send.  However, it varied a lot most the families were for 2 or 3 people  The variation made it seem like my study was of little value.  except for the family with a heat pump water heater used about 1/4 the electricity of the other.     On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 6:19 PM, wrote: Hello Wrenches, Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of power that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater amount seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 gallon tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh / year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft sq building. Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. I think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount of hot water consumed would be the main issue. How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for electric hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. Thank you, Drake _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikek at spiritsolar.net Thu Mar 15 08:09:42 2018 From: mikek at spiritsolar.net (Mike Kocsmiersky) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 08:09:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <01b001d3bc56$809034a0$81b09de0$@net> Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground water temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up to shower temp. My recollection is that ASHRAE states 20gal/person/day for the first 2 people, then 15gpd or 12gpd thereafter. However those rates vary wildly with consumers, from those that never bathe to the high schooler that needs 3 showers a day. In the northeast water heating can be up to 19% of the total household energy load for the year. Also, I would recommend the air source heat pump water heaters if you have significant humidity or an on demand unit. Water tanks are typically under insulated and can lose 2kWh/day in standby losses. Mike Kocsmiersky Principal Spirit Solar Inc. (413) 734-1456 From: Barton Churchill [mailto:barton at solarips.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a delta to 100 or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers are typically 10 minutes. You can then find a calculator online to calculate how many Btus are required to raise water temp for your delta per gallon. Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you should be good. On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, wrote: Hello Wrenches, Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of power that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater amount seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 gallon tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh / year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft sq building. Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. I think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount of hot water consumed would be the main issue. How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for electric hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. Thank you, Drake -- -- Barton Churchill 406.587.5295 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 www.solarips.com Image removed by sender. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD298.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Thu Mar 15 09:12:41 2018 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 13:12:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <683845462.721145.1521119561059@mail.yahoo.com> Drake-- The kWh numbers are reasonable. A few years ago, I metered our hot water heater for a family of three and we were using an average of 10kWh/day--about one-third of our electric bill. A heat-pump water heater will reduce the kWhs, but they cost more and are louder. A better insulated water heater, insulated supply lines, low flow fixtures and better consumption awareness would also help reduce energy use. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com From: "drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org" To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:19 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person Hello Wrenches, Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of power that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater amount seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 gallon tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh / year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft sq building. Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. I think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount of hot water consumed would be the main issue. How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for electric hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. Thank you, Drake _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Mar 15 09:21:52 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 09:21:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: <01b001d3bc56$809034a0$81b09de0$@net> References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <01b001d3bc56$809034a0$81b09de0$@net> Message-ID: <872c3484-caaf-c1bc-c570-67f15224f465@entech-engineering.com> This is what I came up with: The calculation is Q = mcp delta T Water Temp out =  120 Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F? delta T = 70F m = mass flow rate.  ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per person per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon =  167lbs/day/person cp =  1 BTU/lb-degree F Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume = .86)  =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 kWh/month I checked this against one monthand it seems reasonable. Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. They approached it another way with assuming run times. https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq=electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360.0j6j4j0j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0..0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI Chris On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: > > Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground water > temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up to shower > temp.  My recollection is that ASHRAE states 20gal/person/day for the > first 2 people, then 15gpd or 12gpd thereafter.  However those rates > vary wildly with consumers, from those that never bathe to the high > schooler that needs 3 showers a day.  In the northeast water heating > can be up to 19% of the total household energy load for the year.  > Also, I would recommend the air source heat pump water heaters if you > have significant humidity or an on demand unit. Water tanks are > typically under insulated and can lose 2kWh/day in standby losses. > > Mike Kocsmiersky > > Principal > > Spirit Solar Inc. > > (413) 734-1456 > > *From:*Barton Churchill [mailto:barton at solarips.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person > > You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a delta to > 100 or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and > showers are typically 10 minutes. You can then find a calculator > online to calculate how many Btus are required to raise water temp for > your delta per gallon. Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you > should be good. > > On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for > electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of > power that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water > heater amount seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ > year per 26 gallon tank will be consumed. With the two units, that > would add up to 6986 kWh / year for hot water, pushing the system size > to humongous for a 1300 ft sq building. > > Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. > > The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. > I think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount > of hot water consumed would be the main issue. > > How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for > electric hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > > -- > > -- > > Barton Churchill > 406.587.5295 > 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 > www.solarips.com > > Image removed by sender. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD298.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Mar 15 09:42:01 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 06:42:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <0b574fec-5034-5f13-76ba-c1c37ddb6789@psln.com> Drake,             It would help to know....is this duplex already built? and considering where you live, is a woodstove being considered for space heat? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 3/14/2018 4:19 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for > electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of > power that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water > heater amount seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ > year per 26 gallon tank will be consumed. With the two units, that > would add up to 6986 kWh / year for hot water, pushing the system size > to humongous for a 1300 ft sq building. > > Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. > > The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. > I think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount > of hot water consumed would be the main issue. > > How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for > electric hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 12:31:03 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:31:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: <0b574fec-5034-5f13-76ba-c1c37ddb6789@psln.com> References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <0b574fec-5034-5f13-76ba-c1c37ddb6789@psln.com> Message-ID: Sorry I could not find much data but here is what I found Here is some of my data, take with a grain of sault. Well pump ½ hp drawdown 60 feet, start surge 1500 Watts running watts 500 watts runtime 25 seconds 40-gallon bladder tank. 40 to 60 PSI. Two people in the house about 60 years old, One shower the pump ran 4 or sometimes 5 cycles of the water pump about 30 seconds on and 30 off. This means they ran water for about 4 or 5 minutes per shower. When no one was home the electric water 50-gallon energy star cycled about 4 times per day, at 4500 watts for about 10 min, just the non use water heater used 2.5 kWh/day when it was not in use. Another example Family of three, heat pump water heater, energy conscious, 3 showers per day energy use was 1500 Watt hr/day. If HP had COP of 4 then equivalent to 6,000 Wh/d if it had been electric. This means the family was using 40 gallons /day for 3 people or about 13.5 gallons per person per day. Garage door opener 700 watts running very small surge, 2 car garage door, typically 4 cycles per day, run time 12 seconds open and 12 seconds close. Refrigerator energy star about 50% duty cycle 100 watts on, or 1200 Wh/d Family of two 60-year-olds. I have much more data but I could not find. On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 8:42 AM, frenergy wrote: > Drake, > > It would help to know....is this duplex already built? and > considering where you live, is a woodstove being considered for space heat? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849 <(530)%20284-7849> > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 3/14/2018 4:19 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for > electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of power > that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater amount > seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 gallon > tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh / > year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft sq > building. > > Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. > > The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. I > think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount of hot > water consumed would be the main issue. > > How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for electric > hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-7068633328265616310_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Mar 15 13:00:24 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 13:00:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: <872c3484-caaf-c1bc-c570-67f15224f465@entech-engineering.co m> References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <01b001d3bc56$809034a0$81b09de0$@net> <872c3484-caaf-c1bc-c570-67f15224f465@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the plumbing is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I think we need a different water heating strategy. Thank you all! Drake At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote: >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="------------EE4E9806B711DEF636076840" >Content-Language: en-US > >This is what I came up with: > >The calculation is Q = mcp delta T > >Water Temp out = 120 > >Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F? > >delta T = 70F > >m = mass flow rate. ASHRAE is the source for >this. 20gals per person per day = 20 gallons x >8.34 lbs/gallon = 167lbs/day/person > >cp = 1 BTU/lb-degree F > >Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person > >Divide this by the efficiency of the water >heating system (I'll assume = .86) =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day > >convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 kWh/month > >I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable. > >Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with >@ 400kWh per month. They approached it another way with assuming run times. > >https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq=electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360.0j6j4j0j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0..0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI > > >Chris > > > > >On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: >>Barton makes a good point with regards to the >>incoming ground water temperature and the >>amount of heat required to bring it up to >>shower temp.  My recollection is that ASHRAE >>states 20gal/person/day for the first 2 people, >>then 15gpd or 12gpd thereafter. However those >>rates vary wildly with consumers, from those >>that never bathe to the high schooler that >>needs 3 showers a day. In the northeast water >>heating can be up to 19% of the total household >>energy load for the year. Also, I would >>recommend the air source heat pump water >>heaters if you have significant humidity or an >>on demand unit. Water tanks are typically >>under insulated and can lose 2kWh/day in standby losses. >> >>Mike Kocsmiersky >>Principal >>Spirit Solar Inc. >>(413) 734-1456 >> >> >> >>From: Barton Churchill >>[mailto:barton at solarips.com] >>Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM >>To: RE-wrenches >>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person >> >>You first need to know your ground temperature. >>Then figure a delta to 100 or so degrees. Most >>but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers >>are typically 10 minutes. You can then find a >>calculator online to calculate how many Btus >>are required to raise water temp for your delta >>per gallon. Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you should be good. >> >>On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, >><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >>wrote: >>Hello Wrenches, >> >>Is there a good way to estimate the power that >>will be consumed for electric water per person >>per day? We are estimating the amount of power >>that will be used by an all electric duplex, >>and the water heater amount seems high. The >>current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per >>26 gallon tank will be consumed. With the two >>units, that would add up to 6986 kWh / year for >>hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft sq building. >> >>Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. >> >>The owner is considering going to 115 V units >>with a 15 gallon tanks. I think the smaller >>tank would help, but it would seem that the >>amount of hot water consumed would be the main issue. >> >>How can we get a good estimate for a per person >>energy usage for electric hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. >> >>Thank you, >> >>Drake >> >> >> >>-- >>-- >>Barton Churchill >>406.587.5295  >>2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 >>www.solarips.com >>Image removed by sender. >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >-- > >        Christopher Warfel, PE >      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >              (401)466-8978 > > >EEI logo > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 13:17:45 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 12:17:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: <20180315170022.C0A67107AF7@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <01b001d3bc56$809034a0$81b09de0$@net> <872c3484-caaf-c1bc-c570-67f15224f465@entech-engineering.com> <20180315170022.C0A67107AF7@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: When I did my study of solar water heating I found that PV water heating gave more hot water at a lower cost than solar thermal. the Heatpump water heater was the big winner. On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Drake < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the plumbing > is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I > think we need a different water heating strategy. > > Thank you all! > > Drake > > > > At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote: > > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="------------EE4E9806B711DEF636076840" > Content-Language: en-US > > This is what I came up with: > > The calculation is Q = mcp delta T > > Water Temp out = 120 > > Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F? > > delta T = 70F > > m = mass flow rate. ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per person > per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon = 167lbs/day/person > > cp = 1 BTU/lb-degree F > > Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person > > Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume = > .86) =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day > > convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 kWh/month > > I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable. > > Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. They > approached it another way with assuming run times. > > https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei= > Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq= > electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2. > 33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360. > 0j6j4j0j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0.. > 0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI > > > Chris > > > > > On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: > > Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground water > temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up to shower temp. >  My recollection is that ASHRAE states 20gal/person/day for the first 2 > people, then 15gpd or 12gpd thereafter. However those rates vary wildly > with consumers, from those that never bathe to the high schooler that needs > 3 showers a day. In the northeast water heating can be up to 19% of the > total household energy load for the year. Also, I would recommend the air > source heat pump water heaters if you have significant humidity or an on > demand unit. Water tanks are typically under insulated and can lose > 2kWh/day in standby losses. >  > Mike Kocsmiersky > Principal > Spirit Solar Inc. > (413) 734-1456 >  >  >  > *From:* Barton Churchill [mailto:barton at solarips.com ] > > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person >  > You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a delta to 100 > or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers are > typically 10 minutes. You can then find a calculator online to calculate > how many Btus are required to raise water temp for your delta per gallon. > Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you should be good. > > On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> > wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for > electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of power > that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater amount > seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 gallon > tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh / > year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft sq > building. > > Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. > > The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. I > think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount of hot > water consumed would be the main issue. > > How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for electric > hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > > -- > -- > Barton Churchill > 406.587.5295 <(406)%20587-5295>  > 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 > www.solarips.com > [image: Image removed by sender.] >  > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > >         Christopher Warfel, PE >       ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >               (401)466-8978 <(401)%20466-8978> >  > [image: EEI logo] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Mar 15 13:35:06 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 13:35:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <01b001d3bc56$809034a0$81b09de0$@net> <872c3484-caaf-c1bc-c570-67f15224f465@entech-engineering.com> <20180315170022.C0A67107AF7@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <7bd85027-9fe5-1b00-c8da-bc16333a0f5e@entech-engineering.com> That would be a good analysis to share. I can see how it could be possible with lower module costs, but I haven't seen any studies on this comparison. Chris On 3/15/2018 1:17 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > When I did my study of solar water heating I found that PV water > heating gave more hot water at a lower cost than solar thermal.  the > Heatpump water heater was the big winner. > > On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Drake > > wrote: > > This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the > plumbing is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a > likely solution. I think we need a different water heating strategy. > > Thank you all! > > Drake > > > > At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote: >> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >>  boundary="------------EE4E9806B711DEF636076840" >> Content-Language: en-US >> >> This is what I came up with: >> >> The calculation is Q = mcp delta T >> >> Water Temp out =  120 >> >> Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F? >> >> delta T = 70F >> >> m =  mass flow rate. ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per >> person per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon =  167lbs/day/person >> >> cp =  1 BTU/lb-degree F >> >> Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person >> >> Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll >> assume = .86)  =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day >> >> convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 >> kWh/month >> >> I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable. >> >> Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per >> month. They approached it another way with assuming run times. >> >> https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq=electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360.0j6j4j0j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0..0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI >> >> >> >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: >>> Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground >>> water temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up >>> to shower temp.  My recollection is that ASHRAE states >>> 20gal/person/day for the first 2 people, then 15gpd or 12gpd >>> thereafter.  However those rates vary wildly with consumers, >>> from those that never bathe to the high schooler that needs 3 >>> showers a day.  In the northeast water heating can be up to 19% >>> of the total household energy load for the year.  Also, I would >>> recommend the air source heat pump water heaters if you have >>> significant humidity or an on demand unit.  Water tanks are >>> typically under insulated and can lose 2kWh/day in standby losses. >>>  >>> Mike Kocsmiersky >>> Principal >>> Spirit Solar Inc. >>> (413) 734-1456 >>>  >>>  >>>  >>> *From:* Barton Churchill [mailto:barton at solarips.com] >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person >>>  >>> You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a >>> delta to 100 or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow >>> 2.5gpm and showers are typically 10 minutes. You can then find a >>> calculator online to calculate how many Btus are required to >>> raise water temp for your delta per gallon. Convert to kWh, add >>> some contingency and you should be good. >>> >>> On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, >>> >> > wrote: >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed >>> for electric water per person per day? We are estimating the >>> amount of power that will be used by an all electric duplex, and >>> the water heater amount seems high. The current model we have >>> claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 gallon tank will be consumed. With >>> the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh / year for hot >>> water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft sq >>> building. >>> >>> Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. >>> >>> The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon >>> tanks. I think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem >>> that the amount of hot water consumed would be the main issue. >>> >>> How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for >>> electric hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> -- >>> Barton Churchill >>> 406.587.5295  >>> 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 >>> www.solarips.com >>> Image removed by sender. >>>  >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> -- >> >>          Christopher Warfel, PE >>        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>               (401)466-8978 >>  >> EEI logo >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 13:45:23 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2018 12:45:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: <7bd85027-9fe5-1b00-c8da-bc16333a0f5e@entech-engineering.com> References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <01b001d3bc56$809034a0$81b09de0$@net> <872c3484-caaf-c1bc-c570-67f15224f465@entech-engineering.com> <20180315170022.C0A67107AF7@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <7bd85027-9fe5-1b00-c8da-bc16333a0f5e@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: I had 3 customers that were my data source. unfortunately, I had trouble monitoring the thermal systems and they got tired of me coming over daily to see the runtimes ect one gave up on solar thermal when a leak occurred, The other two I stopped monitoring because of expenses in the monitoring of the solar thermal. On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 12:35 PM, cwarfel wrote: > That would be a good analysis to share. I can see how it could be possible > with lower module costs, but I haven't seen any studies on this comparison. > Chris > > On 3/15/2018 1:17 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > > When I did my study of solar water heating I found that PV water heating > gave more hot water at a lower cost than solar thermal. the Heatpump water > heater was the big winner. > > On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Drake redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > >> This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the >> plumbing is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely >> solution. I think we need a different water heating strategy. >> >> Thank you all! >> >> Drake >> >> >> >> At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote: >> >> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >> boundary="------------EE4E9806B711DEF636076840" >> Content-Language: en-US >> >> This is what I came up with: >> >> The calculation is Q = mcp delta T >> >> Water Temp out = 120 >> >> Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F? >> >> delta T = 70F >> >> m = mass flow rate. ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per person >> per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon = 167lbs/day/person >> >> cp = 1 BTU/lb-degree F >> >> Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person >> >> Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume = >> .86) =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day >> >> convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 >> kWh/month >> >> I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable. >> >> Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. They >> approached it another way with assuming run times. >> >> https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=Z3KqW >> vXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+ >> consumption&oq=electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy- >> ab.1.2.33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0. >> 451.2360.0j6j4j0j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0. >> .0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI >> >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: >> >> Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground water >> temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up to shower temp. >>  My recollection is that ASHRAE states 20gal/person/day for the first 2 >> people, then 15gpd or 12gpd thereafter. However those rates vary wildly >> with consumers, from those that never bathe to the high schooler that needs >> 3 showers a day. In the northeast water heating can be up to 19% of the >> total household energy load for the year. Also, I would recommend the air >> source heat pump water heaters if you have significant humidity or an on >> demand unit. Water tanks are typically under insulated and can lose >> 2kWh/day in standby losses. >>  >> Mike Kocsmiersky >> Principal >> Spirit Solar Inc. >> (413) 734-1456 >>  >>  >>  >> *From:* Barton Churchill [mailto:barton at solarips.com >> ] >> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person >>  >> You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a delta to >> 100 or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers are >> typically 10 minutes. You can then find a calculator online to calculate >> how many Btus are required to raise water temp for your delta per gallon. >> Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you should be good. >> >> On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >> wrote: >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for >> electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of power >> that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater amount >> seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 gallon >> tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh / >> year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft sq >> building. >> >> Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. >> >> The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. I >> think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount of hot >> water consumed would be the main issue. >> >> How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for electric >> hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Barton Churchill >> 406.587.5295 <%28406%29%20587-5295>  >> 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 >> www.solarips.com >> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>  >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: >> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> >>         Christopher Warfel, PE >>       ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>               (401)466-8978 <%28401%29%20466-8978> >>  >> [image: EEI logo] >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401)466-8978 <(401)%20466-8978> > > [image: EEI logo] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Mar 16 17:23:19 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 14:23:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback: Vicious compatibility circle Message-ID: <48c4046bced304077fcf7884981967e0@mail.gmail.com> Dear Colleagues: Here is a cautionary tale and a bit of a rant. I hope by relating this experience may help others avoid it. I have an off-grid installation that needed some updating. I first installed this system in about 1984 with three Heart Interface inverters stacked. Later on I converted to two 24 volt VFX inverters. The client has had some issues and the site is remote, so I thought remote monitoring would be helpful. I installed a Mate3 and a dedicated terrestrial internet service and we could monitor certain functions remotely, control the generator and initiate EQ cycles in advance so we did not have to wait for hours to complete an EQ before checking SG and watering. The inverters had version 59 and 60 firmware which is older and limited the feature set available for Optics monitoring. Still we were able to use vital functions. A few months later the Optics system stopped working for the most part. I contacted Outback and apparently Outback had updated the Optics system and the changes rendered the FX inverters unable to connect to Optics in any useful manner. This was embarrassing because I had sold the customers on the benefits of Optics. I am disappointed that Outback pulled the rug out from under an otherwise operating system. To upgrade the inverter firmware requires changing out the control boards. This was too much cost and work for older, 24 volt inverters. I convince the customer to upgrade to new inverters, and while at it to upgrade to 48 volts. I installed the new inverters and batteries and completed the job yesterday. Today I was checking Optics and got some strange response while trying to adjust some settings. In talking with tech support, apparently the new FXR inverters (version suffix A-01) are not compatible with the Mate3. I have to purchase a Mate3s. I bid this job, so the cost will come out of my pocket. I was told my vendor should know not to sell new FXR inverters without cautioning installers about the need for a new Mate3s. I do not believe inside sales-people will know nor should they be required to know this level of arcane detail. As of today the Outback web site indicates only a Mate3, not a Mate3s, is required. Outback, if you are listening, please try to maintain some backwards-compatibility with the pool of existing equipment out there. We can’t all run out and replace all of our hardware whenever you update your web service or product line. I feel like I am constantly beta testing your shipping products and that presents enough headaches without this added problem. Rant over. Again, I hope I can save someone else the unpleasant surprises I am experiencing. Sincerely. William Miller PS: All of the above is based on what I learned from tech support. If I misunderstand any of it I am open to correction. Wm [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1776 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Fri Mar 16 20:18:47 2018 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 17:18:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback: Vicious compatibility circle Message-ID: <20180316171847.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.f3aa06e314.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1776 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 22:43:43 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:43:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE and FlexNet DC shunts monitoring question Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches; We recently installed OpticsRE monitoring for an existing off-grid site in Southern Colorado. It is 24v battery bank, 2.2kW PV, 2 Outback Flexmax 60 controllers, nice old Trace SW inverter, and new wind turbine + controller to replace a failed Whisper 200 with worn out furl and yaw bushings. We installed a FlexMaxDC shunt monitor into the Outback Hub, with the old TriMetric shunt set as "inverter" and a new wind turbine shunt set as "wind" We removed the existing Bogart TriMetric and replaced it with the Mate 3s and , everything is working fine for remote monitoring. But because the Mate can't talk to the Trace inverter, it appears the PV input is subtracting from the inverter output on that shunt. Thinking that moving the PV input to the other side of the shunt will fix that, as the charge controllers are talking to OpticsRE just fine. Questions: When the gasoline generator starts from low SOC (from the Trace SW relay) will the FlexMaxDC Shunt A show a positive charging gain from the generator or does FlexmaxDC only show one way (load or charge)? I don't see any way of separating inverter load vs. generator gain. We will test this next month down there, but it's 5 hours away, we just want to be prepared. Is there any way to graph the FlexMaxDC shunts on the main online dashboard? They seem like a neglected child, only accessible by clicking multiple menus, and just downloading data to a spreadsheet. The idea was to show the client on a real-time graph how much the wind turbine is contributing versus PV. For that main dashboard, we realize that without an Outback inverter/charger, the graph will never show gasoline "generator" but if it showed inverter loads as a gain, that would be enough. Still getting our heads wrapped around OpticsRE, but the setup and commissioning was very easy, and it does work, after running a bunch of CAT5 hardwired; Concrete/Adobe structure filled with remesh blocked all efforts for wifi, The wifi router is located in the solar thermal room downstairs (the ReSol monitoring works great on the thermal) and barely a whiff of it upstairs at the electrical control room....OpticsRE seems to need a pretty robust internet connection. Any thoughts appreciated, this is our first OpticsRE install. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Mar 17 00:51:14 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 22:51:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback: Vicious compatibility circle In-Reply-To: <20180316171847.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.f3aa06e314.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> References: <20180316171847.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.f3aa06e314.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: I had so many problems with the backwards compatibility issues, FXR firmware issues, and inconsistent tech support that we have dropped Outback from our lineup except for their charge controllers.  The controllers seem to still be reliable. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/16/18 6:18 PM, dan at foxfire-energy.com wrote: > I recently went thru a very similar ordeal.. cost me three extra days > on site.. and got three different opinions from Tech support (one > suggested I fried coms in all equipment and might need to replace the > entire system).. only to conclude there was a software glitch that > permanently took out the Mate3s local control when connected to > Flexnet DC.. we did eventually get everything straightened out, but > then discovered we couldn't update software on the FXRs from the > Mate3s thru the Hub 10.3.. we had to physically connect the Mate3 to > each inverter directly.. I figure it cost me an extra $2,500.00 anyway. > > Be warned, you will also need a new huB 10.3 as well to stack FXRs.. > and the master goes in port 1 and the slave is now in port 7. I'm also > told all Mates now are Mate3s and all Hub 10s are now Hub10.3. > > Condolences Dude. > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback: Vicious compatibility circle > From: William Miller > > Date: Fri, March 16, 2018 5:23 pm > To: RE-wrenches > > > Dear Colleagues: > Here is a cautionary tale and a bit of a rant.  I hope by relating > this experience may help others avoid it. > I have an off-grid installation that needed some updating.  I > first installed this system in about 1984 with three Heart > Interface inverters stacked.  Later on I converted to two 24 volt > VFX inverters.  The client has had some issues and the site is > remote, so I thought remote monitoring would be helpful.  I > installed a Mate3 and a dedicated terrestrial internet service and > we could monitor certain functions remotely, control the generator > and initiate EQ cycles in advance so we did not have to wait for > hours to complete an EQ before checking SG and watering. > The inverters had version 59 and 60 firmware which is older and > limited the feature set available for Optics monitoring.  Still we > were able to use vital functions.  A few months later the Optics > system stopped working for the most part.  I contacted Outback and > apparently Outback had updated the Optics system and the changes > rendered the FX inverters unable to connect to Optics in any > useful manner. This was embarrassing because I had sold the > customers on the benefits of Optics.  I am disappointed that > Outback pulled the rug out from under an otherwise operating system. > To upgrade the inverter firmware requires changing out the control > boards.  This was too much cost and work for older, 24 volt > inverters.  I convince the customer to upgrade to new inverters, > and while at it to upgrade to 48 volts.  I installed the new > inverters and batteries and completed the job yesterday.  Today I > was checking Optics and got some strange response while trying to > adjust some settings.  In talking with tech support, apparently > the new FXR inverters (version suffix A-01) are not  compatible > with the Mate3.  I have to purchase a Mate3s.  I bid this job, so > the cost will come out of my pocket. > I was told my vendor should know not to sell new FXR inverters > without cautioning installers about the need for a new Mate3s.  I > do not believe inside sales-people will know nor should they be > required to know this level of arcane detail.  As of today the > Outback web site indicates only a Mate3, not a Mate3s, is required. > Outback, if you are listening, please try to maintain some > backwards-compatibility with the pool of existing equipment out > there.  We can’t all run out and replace all of our hardware > whenever you update your web service or product line.  I feel like > I am constantly beta testing your shipping products and that > presents enough headaches without this added problem. Rant over. > Again, I hope I can save someone else the unpleasant surprises I > am experiencing. > Sincerely. > William Miller > PS: All of the above is based on what I learned from tech > support.  If I misunderstand any of it I am open to correction. > Wm > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1776 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 13:54:32 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 13:54:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE and FlexNet DC shunts monitoring question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <454D34AE-653D-4239-9A16-DB955AD25516@gmail.com> Dan, you hit the nail on the head when you said that Optics requires a robust internet connection. Most of my systems on OpticsRE (19) have been changed from WiFi at some point. Using a WiFi extender just seems to add another failure point. I have had to manually reboot the wireless setups many times. My own system at home, using the AXS port finally works consistently after I broke down and cleared the trap door to my crawl space under the living room and snaked the cat 5 cable 50’ to my power room from the satellite router. Otherwise, I think it is a great system now that lots of bugs have been worked out of the system during the last year or so. John Blittersdorf Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 16, 2018, at 10:43 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Esteemed Wrenches; > > We recently installed OpticsRE monitoring for an existing off-grid site in Southern Colorado. It is 24v battery bank, 2.2kW PV, 2 Outback Flexmax 60 controllers, nice old Trace SW inverter, and new wind turbine + controller to replace a failed Whisper 200 with worn out furl and yaw bushings. > > We installed a FlexMaxDC shunt monitor into the Outback Hub, with the old TriMetric shunt set as "inverter" and a new wind turbine shunt set as "wind" > > We removed the existing Bogart TriMetric and replaced it with the Mate 3s and , everything is working fine for remote monitoring. But because the Mate can't talk to the Trace inverter, it appears the PV input is subtracting from the inverter output on that shunt. Thinking that moving the PV input to the other side of the shunt will fix that, as the charge controllers are talking to OpticsRE just fine. > > Questions: > > When the gasoline generator starts from low SOC (from the Trace SW relay) will the FlexMaxDC Shunt A show a positive charging gain from the generator or does FlexmaxDC only show one way (load or charge)? I don't see any way of separating inverter load vs. generator gain. We will test this next month down there, but it's 5 hours away, we just want to be prepared. > > Is there any way to graph the FlexMaxDC shunts on the main online dashboard? They seem like a neglected child, only accessible by clicking multiple menus, and just downloading data to a spreadsheet. The idea was to show the client on a real-time graph how much the wind turbine is contributing versus PV. > > For that main dashboard, we realize that without an Outback inverter/charger, the graph will never show gasoline "generator" but if it showed inverter loads as a gain, that would be enough. > > Still getting our heads wrapped around OpticsRE, but the setup and commissioning was very easy, and it does work, after running a bunch of CAT5 hardwired; Concrete/Adobe structure filled with remesh blocked all efforts for wifi, The wifi router is located in the solar thermal room downstairs (the ReSol monitoring works great on the thermal) and barely a whiff of it upstairs at the electrical control room....OpticsRE seems to need a pretty robust internet connection. > > Any thoughts appreciated, this is our first OpticsRE install. > > > > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 23:26:01 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 17:26:01 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuses Message-ID: Wrenches I have a question that I do not have an answer for that I can prove, here it is, I have 25 ABB 20 k. three phase inverters on a .5 meg ground mount site , I have also seen this on systems with SMA tripower and Fronius 8.2 and trio inverters on roof mounted systems, intermittently one combiner will blow a fuse and 9 times out of 10 it will be a negative fuse. PPA holders or CFO's of these systems would like to know why and other than a wake up surge or shade issue which could effect the negative side but that's really a stretch to say for sure. We have sites located in dry and wet locations around the islands, we have different brands of inverters but the fuses are what the inverter manufacture included in their combiner/switches. I am proposing to only use a slow blow fuse in the future with all of our new systems regardless of what is included in the combiners but with hundreds of fuses out there its a tough call to replace as they fail or just for it and change them all in advance per site. I Look forward to your thoughts and ideas, maybe its something else altogether. Jerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 10:56:17 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2018 09:56:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I do not have an answer either but it sounds like a string intermittent fault I had a somewhat similar where when it rained a fuse would blow. it was caused by a screw penetrating a wire On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 10:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > I have a question that I do not have an answer for that I can prove, here > it is, I have 25 ABB 20 k. three phase inverters on a .5 meg ground mount > site , I have also seen this on systems with SMA tripower and Fronius 8.2 > and trio inverters on roof mounted systems, intermittently one combiner > will blow a fuse and 9 times out of 10 it will be a negative fuse. PPA > holders or CFO's of these systems would like to know why and other than a > wake up surge or shade issue which could effect the negative side but > that's really a stretch to say for sure. We have sites located in dry and > wet locations around the islands, we have different brands of inverters but > the fuses are what the inverter manufacture included in their > combiner/switches. I am proposing to only use a slow blow fuse in the > future with all of our new systems regardless of what is included in the > combiners but with hundreds of fuses out there its a tough call to replace > as they fail or just for it and change them all in advance per site. I Look > forward to your thoughts and ideas, maybe its something else altogether. > Jerry > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun Mar 18 13:28:13 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2018 10:28:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f52368e-87ab-ef99-ae89-ff2370b8f4d5@psln.com> Jerry,             I've had several 12 amp Bussman fuses fail in a combiner box serving PVs that SC at 9.9 amps.  They always seemed to be the bussman version that was made in India, labeled SOLAR PV PV-15A10F.  I didn't notice if it was always the negative fuse.  I find myself replacing those with 15 amp fuses though it seems unlikely that some cold day, edge-of-cloud, solar noon, clean PV glass perfect scenario would cause the amps to climb to 12+ amps. In some of the installs, that would never be the case. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 3/17/2018 8:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > I have a question that I do not have an answer for that I can prove, > here it is, I have 25 ABB 20 k. three phase inverters on a .5 meg > ground mount site , I have also seen this on systems with SMA tripower > and Fronius 8.2 and trio inverters on roof mounted systems, > intermittently one combiner will blow a fuse and 9 times out of 10 it > will be a negative fuse. PPA holders or CFO's of these systems would > like to know why and other than a wake up surge or shade issue which > could effect the negative side but that's really a stretch to say for > sure. We have sites located in dry and wet locations around the > islands, we have different brands of inverters but the fuses are what > the inverter manufacture included in their combiner/switches. I am > proposing to only use a slow blow fuse in the future with all of our > new systems regardless of what is included in the combiners but with > hundreds of fuses out there its a tough call to replace as they fail > or just for it and change them all in advance per site. I Look forward > to your thoughts and ideas, maybe its something else altogether. > Jerry > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 13:39:12 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2018 10:39:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jerry, Curious what amp rating the fuses are and what the ISC rating of the modules are. Thx Jay Peltz power. > On Mar 17, 2018, at 8:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > I have a question that I do not have an answer for that I can prove, here it is, I have 25 ABB 20 k. three phase inverters on a .5 meg ground mount site , I have also seen this on systems with SMA tripower and Fronius 8.2 and trio inverters on roof mounted systems, intermittently one combiner will blow a fuse and 9 times out of 10 it will be a negative fuse. PPA holders or CFO's of these systems would like to know why and other than a wake up surge or shade issue which could effect the negative side but that's really a stretch to say for sure. We have sites located in dry and wet locations around the islands, we have different brands of inverters but the fuses are what the inverter manufacture included in their combiner/switches. I am proposing to only use a slow blow fuse in the future with all of our new systems regardless of what is included in the combiners but with hundreds of fuses out there its a tough call to replace as they fail or just for it and change them all in advance per site. I Look forward to your thoughts and ideas, maybe its something else altogether. > Jerry > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From windsine at gmail.com Sun Mar 18 21:51:10 2018 From: windsine at gmail.com (Roy Rakobitsch) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2018 20:51:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE and FlexNet DC shunts monitoring question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dan, you certainly can graph individual shunts in OpticsRE. They are located under the "Battery" tab, lower left from the main dashboard. By default, the shunts (i believe) are labeled A, B and C respectively, but you can name them anything you like. I suggest "Inverter" for A, "PV" for B and "Wind" for C. If you have the shunts wired correctly as per the FNDC manual, power through the shunts will add and subtract and net the correct values (as long as you are using the appropriate resistance shunts (and the sense wires are oriented in the correct polarity as per the manual). If you are using a backup AC generator and it is being utilized through the inverters charger, then shunt A will reflect the values in either direction (both charge and discharge, to and from the battery bank). Aside from calling Outback, you can catch me off list and I can explain. I also second Johns comment about the quality of internet connection, its quite important for Optics to get good data into the database, especially if you are writing any parameters to the equipment. Roy Rakobitsch NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer® Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue Wind/PV Design Engineer Windsine LLC 631-514-4166 www.windsine.org On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 9:43 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches; > > We recently installed OpticsRE monitoring for an existing off-grid site in > Southern Colorado. It is 24v battery bank, 2.2kW PV, 2 Outback Flexmax 60 > controllers, nice old Trace SW inverter, and new wind turbine + controller > to replace a failed Whisper 200 with worn out furl and yaw bushings. > > We installed a FlexMaxDC shunt monitor into the Outback Hub, with the old > TriMetric shunt set as "inverter" and a new wind turbine shunt set as "wind" > > We removed the existing Bogart TriMetric and replaced it with the Mate 3s > and , everything is working fine for remote monitoring. But because the > Mate can't talk to the Trace inverter, it appears the PV input is > subtracting from the inverter output on that shunt. Thinking that moving > the PV input to the other side of the shunt will fix that, as the charge > controllers are talking to OpticsRE just fine. > > Questions: > > When the gasoline generator starts from low SOC (from the Trace SW relay) > will the FlexMaxDC Shunt A show a positive charging gain from the generator > or does FlexmaxDC only show one way (load or charge)? I don't see any way > of separating inverter load vs. generator gain. We will test this next > month down there, but it's 5 hours away, we just want to be prepared. > > Is there any way to graph the FlexMaxDC shunts on the main online > dashboard? They seem like a neglected child, only accessible by clicking > multiple menus, and just downloading data to a spreadsheet. The idea was to > show the client on a real-time graph how much the wind turbine is > contributing versus PV. > > For that main dashboard, we realize that without an Outback > inverter/charger, the graph will never show gasoline "generator" but if it > showed inverter loads as a gain, that would be enough. > > Still getting our heads wrapped around OpticsRE, but the setup and > commissioning was very easy, and it does work, after running a bunch of > CAT5 hardwired; Concrete/Adobe structure filled with remesh blocked all > efforts for wifi, The wifi router is located in the solar thermal room > downstairs (the ReSol monitoring works great on the thermal) and barely a > whiff of it upstairs at the electrical control room....OpticsRE seems to > need a pretty robust internet connection. > > Any thoughts appreciated, this is our first OpticsRE install. > > > > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Mon Mar 19 10:09:28 2018 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:09:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: <20180315170021.F374C107AD5@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <01b001d3bc56$809034a0$81b09de0$@net> <872c3484-caaf-c1bc-c570-67f15224f465@entech-engineering.com> <20180315170021.F374C107AD5@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <007601d3bf8b$e608eba0$b21ac2e0$@dovetailsolar.com> Drake, Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units? They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just help recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain. My understanding is that economically they are barely past the breakeven point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid, then I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not an all-electric off-grid building.) The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by with a smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task, OR you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on the clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the situation. Here are two brand names that I know of. Vertical mount: renewability Horizontal mount: ecodrain I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just though it may be worth consideration. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the plumbing is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I think we need a different water heating strategy. Thank you all! Drake At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EE4E9806B711DEF636076840" Content-Language: en-US This is what I came up with: The calculation is Q = mcp delta T Water Temp out = 120 Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F? delta T = 70F m = mass flow rate. ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per person per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon = 167lbs/day/person cp = 1 BTU/lb-degree F Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume = .86) =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 kWh/month I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable. Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. They approached it another way with assuming run times. https://www.google.com/search?safe=active &source=hp&ei=Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+cons umption&oq=electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.33i22i29i30k1l 3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360.0j6j4j0j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy- ab..18.16.1952.0..0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI Chris On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground water temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up to shower temp.  My recollection is that ASHRAE states 20gal/person/day for the first 2 people, then 15gpd or 12gpd thereafter. However those rates vary wildly with consumers, from those that never bathe to the high schooler that needs 3 showers a day. In the northeast water heating can be up to 19% of the total household energy load for the year. Also, I would recommend the air source heat pump water heaters if you have significant humidity or an on demand unit. Water tanks are typically under insulated and can lose 2kWh/day in standby losses.  Mike Kocsmiersky Principal Spirit Solar Inc. (413) 734-1456    From: Barton Churchill [mailto:barton at solarips.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person  You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a delta to 100 or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers are typically 10 minutes. You can then find a calculator online to calculate how many Btus are required to raise water temp for your delta per gallon. Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you should be good. On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > wrote: Hello Wrenches, Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of power that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater amount seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 gallon tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh / year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft sq building. Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. I think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount of hot water consumed would be the main issue. How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for electric hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. Thank you, Drake -- -- Barton Churchill 406.587.5295  2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 www.solarips.com  _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org --         Christopher Warfel, PE       ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807               (401)466-8978  _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Mon Mar 19 11:45:40 2018 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 15:45:40 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE and FlexNet DC shunts monitoring question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <398ce4331a6644ce80c10862acb4da2b@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello Dan and Wrenches The FNDC can monitor up to 3 shunts. For the FNDC to give correct data all current into and out of the batteries must go through a shunt. The standard shunt is 500 amp 50mv. If three shunts are used it may be a good idea to use one shunt for the two FM 60’s, the second shunt for the wind turbine and the third shunt for the Trace inverter. Each shunt is a two way device meaning it can account for the inverter’s charge and discharge. A common mistake is to wire the shunt backwards meaning if you have a source that is charging it should show positive current flow into the batteries. This is usually caused by reversing the sense leads on the shunt. Both the wind and solar should show as positive current flow into the batteries. For the Trace be certain the current flow is positive when charging and negative current flow when inverting. As far as viewing the FNDC information on optics if you hover your mouse over the battery icon it will show real time shunt information from all three shunts. The shunts can be labeled and their graphing information viewed by clicking on the battery icon on the lower left of the main page. Each of the FMs can be viewed and their graphing displayed by clicking on the charge controllers icon also on the lower left on the main page. Programming changes to the FNDC and the FM charge controllers can be made by selecting DEVICE MAP, selecting the specific device, making the required changes then clicking on APPLY. On the inverter when charging you will see the positive current flow into the batteries and negative current flow when inverting. As a side feature if you were to use the OutBack temp sensor on the FM on port 1 of the Hub. On the main page you can select 3 different information points. SOC, battery voltage and battery temperature (either Fahrenheit or Celsius). SOC is the default information point. When the FNDC is powered up it starts out at 100% SOC. So be certain to go through a complete charge after the system is installed this will get the batteries and the FNDC in sync. I hope this helps. Take Care Sirs From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Friday, March 16, 2018 7:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE and FlexNet DC shunts monitoring question Esteemed Wrenches; We recently installed OpticsRE monitoring for an existing off-grid site in Southern Colorado. It is 24v battery bank, 2.2kW PV, 2 Outback Flexmax 60 controllers, nice old Trace SW inverter, and new wind turbine + controller to replace a failed Whisper 200 with worn out furl and yaw bushings. We installed a FlexMaxDC shunt monitor into the Outback Hub, with the old TriMetric shunt set as "inverter" and a new wind turbine shunt set as "wind" We removed the existing Bogart TriMetric and replaced it with the Mate 3s and , everything is working fine for remote monitoring. But because the Mate can't talk to the Trace inverter, it appears the PV input is subtracting from the inverter output on that shunt. Thinking that moving the PV input to the other side of the shunt will fix that, as the charge controllers are talking to OpticsRE just fine. Questions: When the gasoline generator starts from low SOC (from the Trace SW relay) will the FlexMaxDC Shunt A show a positive charging gain from the generator or does FlexmaxDC only show one way (load or charge)? I don't see any way of separating inverter load vs. generator gain. We will test this next month down there, but it's 5 hours away, we just want to be prepared. Is there any way to graph the FlexMaxDC shunts on the main online dashboard? They seem like a neglected child, only accessible by clicking multiple menus, and just downloading data to a spreadsheet. The idea was to show the client on a real-time graph how much the wind turbine is contributing versus PV. For that main dashboard, we realize that without an Outback inverter/charger, the graph will never show gasoline "generator" but if it showed inverter loads as a gain, that would be enough. Still getting our heads wrapped around OpticsRE, but the setup and commissioning was very easy, and it does work, after running a bunch of CAT5 hardwired; Concrete/Adobe structure filled with remesh blocked all efforts for wifi, The wifi router is located in the solar thermal room downstairs (the ReSol monitoring works great on the thermal) and barely a whiff of it upstairs at the electrical control room....OpticsRE seems to need a pretty robust internet connection. Any thoughts appreciated, this is our first OpticsRE install. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar at 4fast.net Mon Mar 19 12:39:54 2018 From: solar at 4fast.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:39:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E67BDA6-9C3D-457C-8188-EF257543D20B@4fast.net> I have replaced a few paper fuses over the years in outside boxes which appear to have failed due to moisture as there was no other faults. On Mar 18, 2018, at 10:39 AM, Jay wrote: Hi Jerry, Curious what amp rating the fuses are and what the ISC rating of the modules are. Thx Jay Peltz power. > On Mar 17, 2018, at 8:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > I have a question that I do not have an answer for that I can prove, here it is, I have 25 ABB 20 k. three phase inverters on a .5 meg ground mount site , I have also seen this on systems with SMA tripower and Fronius 8.2 and trio inverters on roof mounted systems, intermittently one combiner will blow a fuse and 9 times out of 10 it will be a negative fuse. PPA holders or CFO's of these systems would like to know why and other than a wake up surge or shade issue which could effect the negative side but that's really a stretch to say for sure. We have sites located in dry and wet locations around the islands, we have different brands of inverters but the fuses are what the inverter manufacture included in their combiner/switches. I am proposing to only use a slow blow fuse in the future with all of our new systems regardless of what is included in the combiners but with hundreds of fuses out there its a tough call to replace as they fail or just for it and change them all in advanc e per site. I Look forward to your thoughts and ideas, maybe its something else altogether. > Jerry > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Mar 19 14:23:57 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 14:23:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: <007601d3bf8b$e608eba0$b21ac2e0$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <01b001d3bc56$809034a0$81b09de0$@net> <872c3484-caaf-c1bc-c570-67f15224f465@entech-engineering.com> <20180315170021.F374C107AD5@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <007601d3bf8b$e608eba0$b21ac2e0$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: I had thought of this a long time ago for an island project, but the cost of plumbing cold inlet water past the heat exchanger was too high. I think this can work at time of construction or easy renovation. We do this for large thermal dump loads for fabric mills for example. On 3/19/2018 10:09 AM, Daniel Young wrote: > > Drake, > > Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units? > They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just > help recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain. > > My understanding is that economically they are barely past the > breakeven point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV > costs as the benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this > is off grid, then I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is > not an all-electric off-grid building.) > > The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by > with a smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the > same task, OR you can get much longer showers from the same sized > unit. Depending on the clients goals, this might be a useful tool to > bring into the situation. > > Here are two brand names that I know of. > > Vertical mount: renewability > > Horizontal mount: ecodrain > > I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just > though it may be worth consideration. > > With Regards, > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional^TM : Cert #031508-90 > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Drake > *Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person > > This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the > plumbing is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely > solution. I think we need a different water heating strategy. > > Thank you all! > > Drake > > > > At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote: > > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >  boundary="------------EE4E9806B711DEF636076840" > Content-Language: en-US > > This is what I came up with: > > The calculation is Q = mcp delta T > > Water Temp out =  120 > > Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F? > > delta T = 70F > > m =  mass flow rate.  ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per > person per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon =  167lbs/day/person > > cp =  1 BTU/lb-degree F > > Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person > > Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll > assume = .86)  =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day > > convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 > kWh/month > > I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable. > > Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per > month. They approached it another way with assuming run times. > > https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq=electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360.0j6j4j0j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0..0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI > > > > Chris > > > > > On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: > > Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground > water temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it > up to shower temp.  My recollection is that ASHRAE states > 20gal/person/day for the first 2 people, then 15gpd or 12gpd > thereafter.  However those rates vary wildly with consumers, > from those that never bathe to the high schooler that needs 3 > showers a day.  In the northeast water heating can be up to > 19% of the total household energy load for the year.  Also, I > would recommend the air source heat pump water heaters if you > have significant humidity or an on demand unit.  Water tanks > are typically under insulated and can lose 2kWh/day in standby > losses. >  > Mike Kocsmiersky > Principal > Spirit Solar Inc. > (413) 734-1456 >  >  >  > *From:* Barton Churchill [mailto:barton at solarips.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person >  > You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a > delta to 100 or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow > 2.5gpm and showers are typically 10 minutes. You can then find > a calculator online to calculate how many Btus are required to > raise water temp for your delta per gallon. Convert to kWh, > add some contingency and you should be good. > > On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, > > wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be > consumed for electric water per person per day? We are > estimating the amount of power that will be used by an all > electric duplex, and the water heater amount seems high. The > current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 gallon tank > will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to > 6986 kWh / year for hot water, pushing the system size to > humongous for a 1300 ft sq building. > > Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per > unit. > > The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon > tanks. I think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem > that the amount of hot water consumed would be the main issue. > > How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage > for electric hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > > -- > -- > Barton Churchill > 406.587.5295  > 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 > www.solarips.com > Image removed by sender. >  > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > > > > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > >          Christopher Warfel, PE >        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                (401)466-8978 >  > EEI logo > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Mon Mar 19 21:37:25 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 15:37:25 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] insolation meter Message-ID: <016901d3bfec$0119c710$034d5530$@com> Aloha all, Any of you have any experience with this Chinese-made insolation meter? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Precision-Solar-Power-Meter-Light-Intensity-Measure ment-Radiation-Tester-SM206/201350413285?epid=2215824178 &hash=item2ee16b7be5:g:z6YAAOSwrklVVco7 It’s less than ½ the cost of a Daystar. Thanks, marco --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Mar 20 11:50:38 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 11:50:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: <007601d3bf8b$e608eba0$b21ac2e0$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <01b001d3bc56$809034a0$81b09de0$@net> <872c3484-caaf-c1bc-c570-67f15224f465@entech-engineering.com> <20180315170021.F374C107AD5@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <007601d3bf8b$e608eba0$b21ac2e0$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: Daniel, That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of an air to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation. These systems could keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used. Drake At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote: >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420" >Content-Language: en-us > >Drake, > >Have you or the client looked into the >drainwater heat recovery units? They make both a >vertical and horizontal mounted version. They >just help recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain. > >My understanding is that economically they are >barely past the breakeven point when considering >offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the >benchmark, the economics would be better. If >somehow this is off grid, then I’d say it’s a >home run. (Hopefully though this is not an all-electric off-grid building.) > >The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is >that you can get by with a smaller unit, with a >smaller heating element to perform the same >task, OR you can get much longer showers from >the same sized unit. Depending on the clients >goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the situation. > >Here are two brand names that I know of. >Vertical mount: renewability >Horizontal mount: ecodrain > >I have not used these products, so I cannot >endorse any of them, just though it may be worth consideration. > >With Regards, > >Daniel Young, >NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > >From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Drake >Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person > >This discussion has been a great help. The house >is built and the plumbing is in, but could be >modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. >I think we need a different water heating strategy. > >Thank you all! > >Drake > > > >At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote: > >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="------------EE4E9806B711DEF636076840" >Content-Language: en-US > >This is what I came up with: > >The calculation is Q = mcp delta T > >Water Temp out = 120 > >Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F? > >delta T = 70F > >m = mass flow rate. ASHRAE is the source for >this. 20gals per person per day = 20 gallons x >8.34 lbs/gallon = 167lbs/day/person > >cp = 1 BTU/lb-degree F > >Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person > >Divide this by the efficiency of the water >heating system (I'll assume = .86) =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day > >convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 kWh/month > >I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable. > >Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with >@ 400kWh per month. They approached it another way with assuming run times. > >https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq=electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360.0j6j4j0j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0..0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI > > > >Chris > > > > >On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: > >Barton makes a good point with regards to the >incoming ground water temperature and the amount >of heat required to bring it up to shower temp. > My recollection is that ASHRAE states >20gal/person/day for the first 2 people, then >15gpd or 12gpd thereafter. However those rates >vary wildly with consumers, from those that >never bathe to the high schooler that needs 3 >showers a day. In the northeast water heating >can be up to 19% of the total household energy >load for the year. Also, I would recommend the >air source heat pump water heaters if you have >significant humidity or an on demand >unit. Water tanks are typically under >insulated and can lose 2kWh/day in standby losses. > >Mike Kocsmiersky >Principal >Spirit Solar Inc. >(413) 734-1456 > > > >From: Barton Churchill >[mailto:barton at solarips.com] >Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person > >You first need to know your ground temperature. >Then figure a delta to 100 or so degrees. Most >but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers >are typically 10 minutes. You can then find a >calculator online to calculate how many Btus are >required to raise water temp for your delta per >gallon. Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you should be good. > >On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, >< >drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >Hello Wrenches, > >Is there a good way to estimate the power that >will be consumed for electric water per person >per day? We are estimating the amount of power >that will be used by an all electric duplex, and >the water heater amount seems high. The current >model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 >gallon tank will be consumed. With the two >units, that would add up to 6986 kWh / year for >hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft sq building. > >Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. > >The owner is considering going to 115 V units >with a 15 gallon tanks. I think the smaller tank >would help, but it would seem that the amount of >hot water consumed would be the main issue. > >How can we get a good estimate for a per person >energy usage for electric hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. > >Thank you, > >Drake > > > >-- >-- >Barton Churchill >406.587.5295  >2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 >www.solarips.com >Image removed by sender. > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: > > >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: > > >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: > > >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: > > >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: > > >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >-- > >        Christopher Warfel, PE >      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >              (401)466-8978 > > >EEI logo > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barton at solarips.com Tue Mar 20 12:06:06 2018 From: barton at solarips.com (Barton Churchill) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 10:06:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: <20180320155041.67CE410792C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <01b001d3bc56$809034a0$81b09de0$@net> <872c3484-caaf-c1bc-c570-67f15224f465@entech-engineering.com> <20180315170021.F374C107AD5@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <007601d3bf8b$e608eba0$b21ac2e0$@dovetailsolar.com> <20180320155041.67CE410792C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient are the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for about $1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe, and anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know all pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be a pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper involved and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but think for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more energy. On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake wrote: > Daniel, > > That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of an air > to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation. These systems could > keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used. > > Drake > > > At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote: > > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420" > Content-Language: en-us > > > Drake, > > Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units? > They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just help > recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain. > > My understanding is that economically they are barely past the breakeven > point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the > benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid, then > I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not an all-electric > off-grid building.) > > The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by with a > smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task, OR > you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on the > clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the situation. > > Here are two brand names that I know of. > Vertical mount: renewability > Horizontal mount: ecodrain > > I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just > though it may be worth consideration. > > With Regards, > > Daniel Young, > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Drake > *Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person > > This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the plumbing > is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I > think we need a different water heating strategy. > > Thank you all! > > Drake > > > > At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote: > > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="------------EE4E9806B711DEF636076840" > Content-Language: en-US > > This is what I came up with: > > The calculation is Q = mcp delta T > > Water Temp out = 120 > > Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F? > > delta T = 70F > > m = mass flow rate. ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per person > per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon = 167lbs/day/person > > cp = 1 BTU/lb-degree F > > Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person > > Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume = > .86) =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day > > convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 kWh/month > > I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable. > > Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. They > approached it another way with assuming run times. > > https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei= > Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq= > electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2. > 33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360. > 0j6j4j0j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0.. > 0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI > > > Chris > > > > > On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: > > Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground water > temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up to shower temp. >  My recollection is that ASHRAE states 20gal/person/day for the first 2 > people, then 15gpd or 12gpd thereafter. However those rates vary wildly > with consumers, from those that never bathe to the high schooler that needs > 3 showers a day. In the northeast water heating can be up to 19% of the > total household energy load for the year. Also, I would recommend the air > source heat pump water heaters if you have significant humidity or an on > demand unit. Water tanks are typically under insulated and can lose > 2kWh/day in standby losses. >  > Mike Kocsmiersky > Principal > Spirit Solar Inc. > (413) 734-1456 >  >  >  > From: Barton Churchill [mailto:barton at solarips.com ] > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person >  > You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a delta to 100 > or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers are > typically 10 minutes. You can then find a calculator online to calculate > how many Btus are required to raise water temp for your delta per gallon. > Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you should be good. > > On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> > wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for > electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of power > that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater amount > seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 gallon > tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh / > year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft sq > building. > > Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. > > The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. I > think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount of hot > water consumed would be the main issue. > > How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for electric > hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > > -- > -- > Barton Churchill > 406.587.5295 <(406)%20587-5295>  > 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 > www.solarips.com > [image: Image removed by sender.] >  > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance > > > > > > List > Address: > > > > > > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & > settings: > > > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List-Archive: > > > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > > > List rules & > etiquette: > > > > > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > > Check out or update participant > bios: > > > > > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > -- > >         Christopher Warfel, PE >       ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >               (401)466-8978 <(401)%20466-8978> >  > [image: EEI logo] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- -- Barton Churchill 406.587.5295 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 www.solarips.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Mar 20 13:07:10 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 10:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <01b001d3bc56$809034a0$81b09de0$@net> <872c3484-caaf-c1bc-c570-67f15224f465@entech-engineering.com> <20180315170021.F374C107AD5@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <007601d3bf8b$e608eba0$b21ac2e0$@dovetailsolar.com> <20180320155041.67CE410792C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <2b382aeb2337726f47e198ea4c380a17.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost always the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm. An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed loop if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating water with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing to add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on extremely efficient mini split air source pumps. I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it allows one to have more options. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient are > the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for about > $1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe, > and > anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know all > pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be a > pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper involved > and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but think > for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly > vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more > energy. > > On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake > > wrote: > >> Daniel, >> >> That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of an >> air >> to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation. These systems >> could >> keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used. >> >> Drake >> >> >> At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote: >> >> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420" >> Content-Language: en-us >> >> >> Drake, >> >> Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units? >> They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just help >> recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain. >> >> My understanding is that economically they are barely past the breakeven >> point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the >> benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid, >> then >> I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not an >> all-electric >> off-grid building.) >> >> The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by with >> a >> smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task, >> OR >> you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on >> the >> clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the situation. >> >> Here are two brand names that I know of. >> Vertical mount: renewability >> Horizontal mount: ecodrain >> >> I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just >> though it may be worth consideration. >> >> With Regards, >> >> Daniel Young, >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Drake >> *Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person >> >> This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the >> plumbing >> is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I >> think we need a different water heating strategy. >> >> Thank you all! >> >> Drake >> >> >> >> At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote: >> >> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >> boundary="------------EE4E9806B711DEF636076840" >> Content-Language: en-US >> >> This is what I came up with: >> >> The calculation is Q = mcp delta T >> >> Water Temp out = 120 >> >> Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F? >> >> delta T = 70F >> >> m = mass flow rate. ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per >> person >> per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon = 167lbs/day/person >> >> cp = 1 BTU/lb-degree F >> >> Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person >> >> Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume = >> .86) =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day >> >> convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 >> kWh/month >> >> I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable. >> >> Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. They >> approached it another way with assuming run times. >> >> https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei= >> Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq= >> electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2. >> 33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360. >> 0j6j4j0j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0.. >> 0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI >> >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: >> >> Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground water >> temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up to shower >> temp. >>  My recollection is that ASHRAE states 20gal/person/day for the first >> 2 >> people, then 15gpd or 12gpd thereafter. However those rates vary >> wildly >> with consumers, from those that never bathe to the high schooler that >> needs >> 3 showers a day. In the northeast water heating can be up to 19% of >> the >> total household energy load for the year. Also, I would recommend the >> air >> source heat pump water heaters if you have significant humidity or an on >> demand unit. Water tanks are typically under insulated and can lose >> 2kWh/day in standby losses. >>  >> Mike Kocsmiersky >> Principal >> Spirit Solar Inc. >> (413) 734-1456 >>  >>  >>  >> From: Barton Churchill [mailto:barton at solarips.com >> ] >> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person >>  >> You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a delta to >> 100 >> or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers are >> typically 10 minutes. You can then find a calculator online to calculate >> how many Btus are required to raise water temp for your delta per >> gallon. >> Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you should be good. >> >> On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >> wrote: >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for >> electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of power >> that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater amount >> seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 >> gallon >> tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh >> / >> year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft >> sq >> building. >> >> Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. >> >> The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. I >> think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount of >> hot >> water consumed would be the main issue. >> >> How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for >> electric >> hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Barton Churchill >> 406.587.5295 <(406)%20587-5295>  >> 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 >> www.solarips.com >> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>  >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> List sponsored by Redwood >> Alliance >> >> >> >> >> >> List >> Address: >> >> >> >> >> >> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & >> settings: >> >> >> >> >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> >> >> List rules & >> etiquette: >> >> >> >> >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant >> bios: >> >> >> >> >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >>         Christopher Warfel, PE >>       ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>               (401)466-8978 >> <(401)%20466-8978> >>  >> [image: EEI logo] >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > -- > Barton Churchill > 406.587.5295 > 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 > www.solarips.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Mar 20 13:48:10 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 13:48:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: <2b382aeb2337726f47e198ea4c380a17.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <01b001d3bc56$809034a0$81b09de0$@net> <872c3484-caaf-c1bc-c570-67f15224f465@entech-engineering.com> <20180315170021.F374C107AD5@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <007601d3bf8b$e608eba0$b21ac2e0$@dovetailsolar.com> <20180320155041.67CE410792C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <2b382aeb2337726f47e198ea4c380a17.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: What are the issues with tankless water heaters?  I have heard them described as having "issues", but I haven't read anything that describes what they are.  They are very popular where I live.  Any info? Thanks, Chris On 3/20/2018 1:07 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to > charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost always > the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water > heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm. > > An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed loop > if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating water > with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing to > add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground > source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on extremely > efficient mini split air source pumps. > > I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it allows > one to have more options. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > >> Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient are >> the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for about >> $1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe, >> and >> anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know all >> pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be a >> pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper involved >> and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but think >> for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly >> vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more >> energy. >> >> On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake >> >> wrote: >>> Daniel, >>> >>> That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of an >>> air >>> to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation. These systems >>> could >>> keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used. >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> >>> At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote: >>> >>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >>> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420" >>> Content-Language: en-us >>> >>> >>> Drake, >>> >>> Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units? >>> They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just help >>> recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain. >>> >>> My understanding is that economically they are barely past the breakeven >>> point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the >>> benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid, >>> then >>> I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not an >>> all-electric >>> off-grid building.) >>> >>> The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by with >>> a >>> smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task, >>> OR >>> you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on >>> the >>> clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the situation. >>> >>> Here are two brand names that I know of. >>> Vertical mount: renewability >>> Horizontal mount: ecodrain >>> >>> I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just >>> though it may be worth consideration. >>> >>> With Regards, >>> >>> Daniel Young, >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>> Behalf Of *Drake >>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person >>> >>> This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the >>> plumbing >>> is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I >>> think we need a different water heating strategy. >>> >>> Thank you all! >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> >>> >>> At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote: >>> >>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >>> boundary="------------EE4E9806B711DEF636076840" >>> Content-Language: en-US >>> >>> This is what I came up with: >>> >>> The calculation is Q = mcp delta T >>> >>> Water Temp out = 120 >>> >>> Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F? >>> >>> delta T = 70F >>> >>> m = mass flow rate. ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per >>> person >>> per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon = 167lbs/day/person >>> >>> cp = 1 BTU/lb-degree F >>> >>> Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person >>> >>> Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume = >>> .86) =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day >>> >>> convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 >>> kWh/month >>> >>> I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable. >>> >>> Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. They >>> approached it another way with assuming run times. >>> >>> https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei= >>> Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq= >>> electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2. >>> 33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360. >>> 0j6j4j0j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0.. >>> 0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI >>> >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: >>> >>> Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground water >>> temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up to shower >>> temp. >>>  My recollection is that ASHRAE states 20gal/person/day for the first >>> 2 >>> people, then 15gpd or 12gpd thereafter. However those rates vary >>> wildly >>> with consumers, from those that never bathe to the high schooler that >>> needs >>> 3 showers a day. In the northeast water heating can be up to 19% of >>> the >>> total household energy load for the year. Also, I would recommend the >>> air >>> source heat pump water heaters if you have significant humidity or an on >>> demand unit. Water tanks are typically under insulated and can lose >>> 2kWh/day in standby losses. >>>  >>> Mike Kocsmiersky >>> Principal >>> Spirit Solar Inc. >>> (413) 734-1456 >>>  >>>  >>>  >>> From: Barton Churchill [mailto:barton at solarips.com >>> ] >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person >>>  >>> You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a delta to >>> 100 >>> or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers are >>> typically 10 minutes. You can then find a calculator online to calculate >>> how many Btus are required to raise water temp for your delta per >>> gallon. >>> Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you should be good. >>> >>> On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >>> wrote: >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for >>> electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of power >>> that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater amount >>> seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 >>> gallon >>> tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh >>> / >>> year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft >>> sq >>> building. >>> >>> Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. >>> >>> The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. I >>> think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount of >>> hot >>> water consumed would be the main issue. >>> >>> How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for >>> electric >>> hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> -- >>> Barton Churchill >>> 406.587.5295 <(406)%20587-5295>  >>> 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 >>> www.solarips.com >>> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>>  >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> List sponsored by Redwood >>> Alliance >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> List >>> Address: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & >>> settings: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> List rules & >>> etiquette: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant >>> bios: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>>         Christopher Warfel, PE >>>       ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>>               (401)466-8978 >>> <(401)%20466-8978> >>>  >>> [image: EEI logo] >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> -- >> Barton Churchill >> 406.587.5295 >> 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 >> www.solarips.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Mar 20 13:58:32 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 10:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <01b001d3bc56$809034a0$81b09de0$@net> <872c3484-caaf-c1bc-c570-67f15224f465@entech-engineering.com> <20180315170021.F374C107AD5@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <007601d3bf8b$e608eba0$b21ac2e0$@dovetailsolar.com> <20180320155041.67CE410792C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <2b382aeb2337726f47e198ea4c380a17.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <3eae3a515c4ce9af5180c5953fec8831.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Chris, For Offgrid with minerals in the well water, getting the right flow, the maintenance that is just not there with a tank heater. Tankless are great for many but if you do add an open loop solar water panel, you need a tank.... Just not worth it in places like the south west where there is abundant sunshine. Offgrid in remote places where service is questionable or unavailable, we go with the most reliable. I steer them that way for other reasons also.. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > What are the issues with tankless water heaters?  I have heard them > described as having "issues", but I haven't read anything that describes > what they are.  They are very popular where I live.  Any info? Thanks, > Chris > > > On 3/20/2018 1:07 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to >> charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost always >> the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water >> heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm. >> >> An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed loop >> if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating >> water >> with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing to >> add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground >> source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on >> extremely >> efficient mini split air source pumps. >> >> I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it allows >> one to have more options. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >>> Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient >>> are >>> the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for >>> about >>> $1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe, >>> and >>> anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know >>> all >>> pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be >>> a >>> pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper >>> involved >>> and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but >>> think >>> for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly >>> vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more >>> energy. >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake >>> >>> wrote: >>>> Daniel, >>>> >>>> That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of an >>>> air >>>> to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation. These systems >>>> could >>>> keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used. >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> >>>> At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote: >>>> >>>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >>>> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420" >>>> Content-Language: en-us >>>> >>>> >>>> Drake, >>>> >>>> Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units? >>>> They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just >>>> help >>>> recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain. >>>> >>>> My understanding is that economically they are barely past the >>>> breakeven >>>> point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the >>>> benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid, >>>> then >>>> I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not >>>> an >>>> all-electric >>>> off-grid building.) >>>> >>>> The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by >>>> with >>>> a >>>> smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task, >>>> OR >>>> you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on >>>> the >>>> clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the >>>> situation. >>>> >>>> Here are two brand names that I know of. >>>> Vertical mount: renewability >>>> Horizontal mount: ecodrain >>>> >>>> I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just >>>> though it may be worth consideration. >>>> >>>> With Regards, >>>> >>>> Daniel Young, >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >>>> >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>> Behalf Of *Drake >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person >>>> >>>> This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the >>>> plumbing >>>> is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I >>>> think we need a different water heating strategy. >>>> >>>> Thank you all! >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote: >>>> >>>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >>>> boundary="------------EE4E9806B711DEF636076840" >>>> Content-Language: en-US >>>> >>>> This is what I came up with: >>>> >>>> The calculation is Q = mcp delta T >>>> >>>> Water Temp out = 120 >>>> >>>> Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F? >>>> >>>> delta T = 70F >>>> >>>> m = mass flow rate. ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals >>>> per >>>> person >>>> per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon = 167lbs/day/person >>>> >>>> cp = 1 BTU/lb-degree F >>>> >>>> Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person >>>> >>>> Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume >>>> = >>>> .86) =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day >>>> >>>> convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 >>>> kWh/month >>>> >>>> I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable. >>>> >>>> Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. >>>> They >>>> approached it another way with assuming run times. >>>> >>>> https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei= >>>> Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq= >>>> electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2. >>>> 33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360. >>>> 0j6j4j0j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0.. >>>> 0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI >>>> >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: >>>> >>>> Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground water >>>> temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up to shower >>>> temp. >>>>  My recollection is that ASHRAE states 20gal/person/day for the >>>> first >>>> 2 >>>> people, then 15gpd or 12gpd thereafter. However those rates vary >>>> wildly >>>> with consumers, from those that never bathe to the high schooler that >>>> needs >>>> 3 showers a day. In the northeast water heating can be up to 19% >>>> of >>>> the >>>> total household energy load for the year. Also, I would >>>> recommend the >>>> air >>>> source heat pump water heaters if you have significant humidity or an >>>> on >>>> demand unit. Water tanks are typically under insulated and can >>>> lose >>>> 2kWh/day in standby losses. >>>>  >>>> Mike Kocsmiersky >>>> Principal >>>> Spirit Solar Inc. >>>> (413) 734-1456 >>>>  >>>>  >>>>  >>>> From: Barton Churchill [mailto:barton at solarips.com >>>> ] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person >>>>  >>>> You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a delta to >>>> 100 >>>> or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers >>>> are >>>> typically 10 minutes. You can then find a calculator online to >>>> calculate >>>> how many Btus are required to raise water temp for your delta per >>>> gallon. >>>> Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you should be good. >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>> >>>> Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for >>>> electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of >>>> power >>>> that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater >>>> amount >>>> seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 >>>> gallon >>>> tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 >>>> kWh >>>> / >>>> year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft >>>> sq >>>> building. >>>> >>>> Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. >>>> >>>> The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. >>>> I >>>> think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount >>>> of >>>> hot >>>> water consumed would be the main issue. >>>> >>>> How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for >>>> electric >>>> hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> -- >>>> Barton Churchill >>>> 406.587.5295 <(406)%20587-5295>  >>>> 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 >>>> www.solarips.com >>>> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>>>  >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> List sponsored by Redwood >>>> Alliance >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> List >>>> Address: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & >>>> settings: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & >>>> etiquette: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant >>>> bios: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>>         Christopher Warfel, >>>> PE >>>>       ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>>>            >>>>    (401)466-8978 >>>> <(401)%20466-8978> >>>>  >>>> [image: EEI logo] >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>>> org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>>> org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>>> org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> -- >>> Barton Churchill >>> 406.587.5295 >>> 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 >>> www.solarips.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > >          Christopher Warfel, PE >        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                (401)466-8978 > > EEI logo > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Mar 20 14:06:18 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 14:06:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: <3eae3a515c4ce9af5180c5953fec8831.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <01b001d3bc56$809034a0$81b09de0$@net> <872c3484-caaf-c1bc-c570-67f15224f465@entech-engineering.com> <20180315170021.F374C107AD5@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <007601d3bf8b$e608eba0$b21ac2e0$@dovetailsolar.com> <20180320155041.67CE410792C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <2b382aeb2337726f47e198ea4c380a17.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <3eae3a515c4ce9af5180c5953fec8831.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <115d2b8b-14a2-49e8-586e-135013ae3c41@entech-engineering.com> Ah,off grid. I see. That makes sense. I wouldn't use it place of solar, but we have used it as part of one. Obviously we have a tank in that application. We have a very good propane sales person herewho has sold a lot of on demand radiant and hydronic.It's almost twice thecost per BTU v oil, but they have done very well on low maintenance claims. On 3/20/2018 1:58 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > Chris, > > For Offgrid with minerals in the well water, getting the right flow, the > maintenance that is just not there with a tank heater. Tankless are great > for many but if you do add an open loop solar water panel, you need a > tank.... Just not worth it in places like the south west where there is > abundant sunshine. Offgrid in remote places where service is questionable > or unavailable, we go with the most reliable. I steer them that way for > other reasons also.. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > >> What are the issues with tankless water heaters?  I have heard them >> described as having "issues", but I haven't read anything that describes >> what they are.  They are very popular where I live.  Any info? Thanks, >> Chris >> >> >> On 3/20/2018 1:07 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>> And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to >>> charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost always >>> the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water >>> heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm. >>> >>> An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed loop >>> if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating >>> water >>> with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing to >>> add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground >>> source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on >>> extremely >>> efficient mini split air source pumps. >>> >>> I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it allows >>> one to have more options. >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>> >>>> Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient >>>> are >>>> the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for >>>> about >>>> $1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe, >>>> and >>>> anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know >>>> all >>>> pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be >>>> a >>>> pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper >>>> involved >>>> and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but >>>> think >>>> for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly >>>> vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more >>>> energy. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Daniel, >>>>> >>>>> That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of an >>>>> air >>>>> to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation. These systems >>>>> could >>>>> keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used. >>>>> >>>>> Drake >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >>>>> boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420" >>>>> Content-Language: en-us >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Drake, >>>>> >>>>> Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units? >>>>> They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just >>>>> help >>>>> recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain. >>>>> >>>>> My understanding is that economically they are barely past the >>>>> breakeven >>>>> point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the >>>>> benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid, >>>>> then >>>>> I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not >>>>> an >>>>> all-electric >>>>> off-grid building.) >>>>> >>>>> The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by >>>>> with >>>>> a >>>>> smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task, >>>>> OR >>>>> you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on >>>>> the >>>>> clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the >>>>> situation. >>>>> >>>>> Here are two brand names that I know of. >>>>> Vertical mount: renewability >>>>> Horizontal mount: ecodrain >>>>> >>>>> I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just >>>>> though it may be worth consideration. >>>>> >>>>> With Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Daniel Young, >>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >>>>> >>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>>> Behalf Of *Drake >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM >>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person >>>>> >>>>> This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the >>>>> plumbing >>>>> is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I >>>>> think we need a different water heating strategy. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you all! >>>>> >>>>> Drake >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >>>>> boundary="------------EE4E9806B711DEF636076840" >>>>> Content-Language: en-US >>>>> >>>>> This is what I came up with: >>>>> >>>>> The calculation is Q = mcp delta T >>>>> >>>>> Water Temp out = 120 >>>>> >>>>> Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F? >>>>> >>>>> delta T = 70F >>>>> >>>>> m = mass flow rate. ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals >>>>> per >>>>> person >>>>> per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon = 167lbs/day/person >>>>> >>>>> cp = 1 BTU/lb-degree F >>>>> >>>>> Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person >>>>> >>>>> Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume >>>>> = >>>>> .86) =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day >>>>> >>>>> convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 >>>>> kWh/month >>>>> >>>>> I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable. >>>>> >>>>> Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. >>>>> They >>>>> approached it another way with assuming run times. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei= >>>>> Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq= >>>>> electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2. >>>>> 33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360. >>>>> 0j6j4j0j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0.. >>>>> 0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground water >>>>> temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up to shower >>>>> temp. >>>>>  My recollection is that ASHRAE states 20gal/person/day for the >>>>> first >>>>> 2 >>>>> people, then 15gpd or 12gpd thereafter. However those rates vary >>>>> wildly >>>>> with consumers, from those that never bathe to the high schooler that >>>>> needs >>>>> 3 showers a day. In the northeast water heating can be up to 19% >>>>> of >>>>> the >>>>> total household energy load for the year. Also, I would >>>>> recommend the >>>>> air >>>>> source heat pump water heaters if you have significant humidity or an >>>>> on >>>>> demand unit. Water tanks are typically under insulated and can >>>>> lose >>>>> 2kWh/day in standby losses. >>>>>  >>>>> Mike Kocsmiersky >>>>> Principal >>>>> Spirit Solar Inc. >>>>> (413) 734-1456 >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>>  >>>>> From: Barton Churchill [mailto:barton at solarips.com >>>>> ] >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM >>>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person >>>>>  >>>>> You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a delta to >>>>> 100 >>>>> or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers >>>>> are >>>>> typically 10 minutes. You can then find a calculator online to >>>>> calculate >>>>> how many Btus are required to raise water temp for your delta per >>>>> gallon. >>>>> Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you should be good. >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for >>>>> electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of >>>>> power >>>>> that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater >>>>> amount >>>>> seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 >>>>> gallon >>>>> tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 >>>>> kWh >>>>> / >>>>> year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft >>>>> sq >>>>> building. >>>>> >>>>> Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. >>>>> >>>>> The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. >>>>> I >>>>> think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount >>>>> of >>>>> hot >>>>> water consumed would be the main issue. >>>>> >>>>> How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for >>>>> electric >>>>> hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> >>>>> Drake >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> -- >>>>> Barton Churchill >>>>> 406.587.5295 <(406)%20587-5295>  >>>>> 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 >>>>> www.solarips.com >>>>> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>>>>  >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood >>>>> Alliance >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List >>>>> Address: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & >>>>> settings: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & >>>>> etiquette: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant >>>>> bios: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>         Christopher Warfel, >>>>> PE >>>>>       ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>>>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>>>>            >>>>>    (401)466-8978 >>>>> <(401)%20466-8978> >>>>>  >>>>> [image: EEI logo] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>>>> org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>>>> org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>>>> org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> -- >>>> Barton Churchill >>>> 406.587.5295 >>>> 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 >>>> www.solarips.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> -- >> >>          Christopher Warfel, PE >>        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>                (401)466-8978 >> >> EEI logo >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Mar 20 14:03:36 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 12:03:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <01b001d3bc56$809034a0$81b09de0$@net> <872c3484-caaf-c1bc-c570-67f15224f465@entech-engineering.com> <20180315170021.F374C107AD5@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <007601d3bf8b$e608eba0$b21ac2e0$@dovetailsolar.com> <20180320155041.67CE410792C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <2b382aeb2337726f47e198ea4c380a17.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <003f01d3c075$c7cd8d40$5768a7c0$@solarwork.com> It used to be that “tankless” water heaters were very sensitive to stable temperature production as flows from single handle facets shut down the hot and opened the cold flows. I can fully recommend the Rianai heaters of today as we have 2 in offgrid and 0 issues. I have family members that have had them in residential homes for several years also and 0 issues. They do require 120 vac & have digital controls. The water temperature is very stable & consistent. I have not measured the phantom load but could if someone needs to know. 2 thumbs up for Rianai heaters from MHO. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of cwarfel Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 11:48 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person What are the issues with tankless water heaters? I have heard them described as having "issues", but I haven't read anything that describes what they are. They are very popular where I live. Any info? Thanks, Chris On 3/20/2018 1:07 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost always the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm. An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed loop if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating water with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing to add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on extremely efficient mini split air source pumps. I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it allows one to have more options. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient are the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for about $1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe, and anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know all pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be a pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper involved and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but think for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more energy. On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake wrote: Daniel, That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of an air to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation. These systems could keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used. Drake At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420" Content-Language: en-us Drake, Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units? They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just help recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain. My understanding is that economically they are barely past the breakeven point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid, then I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not an all-electric off-grid building.) The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by with a smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task, OR you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on the clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the situation. Here are two brand names that I know of. Vertical mount: renewability Horizontal mount: ecodrain I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just though it may be worth consideration. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 *From:* RE-wrenches *On Behalf Of *Drake *Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the plumbing is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I think we need a different water heating strategy. Thank you all! Drake At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EE4E9806B711DEF636076840" Content-Language: en-US This is what I came up with: The calculation is Q = mcp delta T Water Temp out = 120 Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F? delta T = 70F m = mass flow rate. ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per person per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon = 167lbs/day/person cp = 1 BTU/lb-degree F Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume = .86) =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 kWh/month I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable. Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. They approached it another way with assuming run times. https://www.google.com/search?safe=active &source=hp&ei= Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq= electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2. 33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360. 0j6j4j0j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0.. 0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI Chris On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground water temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up to shower temp.  My recollection is that ASHRAE states 20gal/person/day for the first 2 people, then 15gpd or 12gpd thereafter. However those rates vary wildly with consumers, from those that never bathe to the high schooler that needs 3 showers a day. In the northeast water heating can be up to 19% of the total household energy load for the year. Also, I would recommend the air source heat pump water heaters if you have significant humidity or an on demand unit. Water tanks are typically under insulated and can lose 2kWh/day in standby losses.  Mike Kocsmiersky Principal Spirit Solar Inc. (413) 734-1456    From: Barton Churchill [mailto:barton at solarips.com ] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person  You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a delta to 100 or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers are typically 10 minutes. You can then find a calculator online to calculate how many Btus are required to raise water temp for your delta per gallon. Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you should be good. On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, < drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > wrote: Hello Wrenches, Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of power that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater amount seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 gallon tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh / year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft sq building. Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. I think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount of hot water consumed would be the main issue. How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for electric hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. Thank you, Drake -- -- Barton Churchill 406.587.5295 <(406)%20587-5295>  2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 www.solarips.com [image: Image removed by sender.]  _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org --         Christopher Warfel, PE       ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807               (401)466-8978 <(401)%20466-8978>  [image: EEI logo] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- -- Barton Churchill 406.587.5295 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 www.solarips.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401)466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5313 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Mar 20 11:47:24 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 08:47:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sharp module needed Message-ID: HI All, If anyone has one or knows where to get a Sharp ND-167U1F? Please let me know off list thanks jay Peltz power From ray at solarray.com Tue Mar 20 17:15:09 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 15:15:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person In-Reply-To: <003f01d3c075$c7cd8d40$5768a7c0$@solarwork.com> References: <226c0fe3ea057f5057d698a42dad3a49b966947e@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <01b001d3bc56$809034a0$81b09de0$@net> <872c3484-caaf-c1bc-c570-67f15224f465@entech-engineering.com> <20180315170021.F374C107AD5@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <007601d3bf8b$e608eba0$b21ac2e0$@dovetailsolar.com> <20180320155041.67CE410792C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <2b382aeb2337726f47e198ea4c380a17.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <003f01d3c075$c7cd8d40$5768a7c0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <373e8998-8448-5e38-ffc9-ac5a1e7805f7@solarray.com> Rianai have 3 major issues when used off grid. 1) The phantom load when I checked was over 30 watts continuous. That's over 700 w-hr/ day. 2) They need pure sine wave, and even have trouble on Trace SW inverters.  (One system I took over has a separate Exeltech on its own battery and AC charger to run the Rianai, since they have Trace inverters.  Talk about a waste!) 3) They still have the hard well water scaling issues. Ray Remote Solar On 3/20/18 12:03 PM, Dana wrote: > > It used to be that “tankless” water heaters were very sensitive to > stable temperature production as flows from single handle facets shut > down the hot and opened the cold flows. > > I can fully recommend the Rianai heaters of today as we have 2 in > offgrid and 0 issues. I have family members that have had them in > residential homes for several years also and 0 issues. > > They do require 120 vac & have digital controls. The water temperature > is very stable & consistent. I have not measured the phantom load but > could if someone needs to know. > > 2 thumbs up for Rianai heaters from MHO. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003                  dana at solarwork.com* > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:*RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *cwarfel > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 20, 2018 11:48 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person > > What are the issues with tankless water heaters?  I have heard them > described as having "issues", but I haven't read anything that > describes what they are.  They are very popular where I live.  Any > info? Thanks, Chris > > On 3/20/2018 1:07 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to > > charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost always > > the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water > > heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm. > > An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed loop > > if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating water > > with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing to > > add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground > > source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on extremely > > efficient mini split air source pumps. > > I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it allows > > one to have more options. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > > e-mailoffgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient are > > the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for about > > $1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe, > > and > > anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know all > > pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be a > > pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper involved > > and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but think > > for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly > > vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more > > energy. > > On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake > > > > wrote: > > Daniel, > > That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of an > > air > > to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation.  These systems > > could > > keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used. > > Drake > > At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote: > > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > >          boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420" > > Content-Language: en-us > > Drake, > > Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units? > > They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just help > > recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain. > > My understanding is that economically they are barely past the breakeven > > point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the > > benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid, > > then > > I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not an > > all-electric > > off-grid building.) > > The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by with > > a > > smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task, > > OR > > you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on > > the > > clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the situation. > > Here are two brand names that I know of. > > Vertical mount: renewability > > Horizontal mount: ecodrain > > I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just > > though it may be worth consideration. > > With Regards, > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On > > Behalf Of *Drake > > *Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM > > *To:* RE-wrenches > > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person > > This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the > > plumbing > > is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I > > think we need a different water heating strategy. > > Thank you all! > > Drake > > At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote: > > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > > boundary="------------EE4E9806B711DEF636076840" > > Content-Language: en-US > > This is what I came up with: > > The calculation is Q = mcp delta T > > Water Temp out =  120 > > Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F? > > delta T = 70F > > m =  mass flow rate.  ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per > > person > > per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon =  167lbs/day/person > > cp =  1 BTU/lb-degree F > > Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person > > Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume = > > .86)  =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day > > convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 > > kWh/month > > I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable. > > Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. They > > approached it another way with assuming run times. > > https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei= > > Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq= > > electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2. > > 33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360. > > 0j6j4j0j1.11.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0.. > > 0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI > > Chris > > On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote: > > Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground water > > temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up to shower > > temp. > >  My recollection is that ASHRAE states 20gal/person/day for the first > > 2 > > people, then 15gpd or 12gpd thereafter.  However those rates vary > > wildly > > with consumers, from those that never bathe to the high schooler that > > needs > > 3 showers a day.  In the northeast water heating can be up to 19% of > > the > > total household energy load for the year.  Also, I would recommend the > > air > > source heat pump water heaters if you have significant humidity or an on > > demand unit.  Water tanks are typically under insulated and can lose > > 2kWh/day in standby losses. > >  > > Mike Kocsmiersky > > Principal > > Spirit Solar Inc. > > (413) 734-1456 > >  > >  > >  > > From: Barton Churchill [mailto:barton at solarips.com > > ] > > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person > >  > > You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a delta to > > 100 > > or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers are > > typically 10 minutes. You can then find a calculator online to calculate > > how many Btus are required to raise water temp for your delta per > > gallon. > > Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you should be good. > > On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, > > > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for > > electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of power > > that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater amount > > seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 > > gallon > > tank will be consumed. With the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh > > / > > year for hot water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft > > sq > > building. > > Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit. > > The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. I > > think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount of > > hot > > water consumed would be the main issue. > > How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for > > electric > > hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > -- > > -- > > Barton Churchill > > 406.587.5295 <(406)%20587-5295>  > > 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 > > www.solarips.com > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > >  > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood > > Alliance > > List > > Address: > > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & > > settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & > > etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant > > bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > >          Christopher Warfel, PE > >        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > >                (401)466-8978 > > <(401)%20466-8978> > >  > > [image: EEI logo] > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > > -- > > Barton Churchill > > 406.587.5295 > > 2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715 > > www.solarips.com > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > > e-mailoffgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, PE >        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                (401)466-8978 > > > EEI logo > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5313 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solar1online at charter.net Tue Mar 20 21:53:59 2018 From: solar1online at charter.net (solar1online at charter.net) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 20:53:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person Message-ID: Ray, Chris, et al, Both Paloma (185,500 BTU/h) and Bosch (117,000 BTU/h) manufactured natural draft heaters that used zero electric, just like common tanks. Because the majority of these units used a standing pilot, they were castigated by the energy bureaucrat folks in favor of something that used some electronics to create a spark. Complexity. Then to get the unit bigger (max ~200,000 BTU/h) for non-boiler applications, a power vent was added (more complexity) and in due time an electrically driven gas valve (yet more complexity). To help keep the heater from freezing when the installation was not done properly, electric ceramic heaters were added to the heat exchanger to minimize freezing (~300 w temperature activation). The way these non electric natural draft tankless heaters were used in Europe and Asia was to turn off even the pilot once you were finished using the water heater (they had the piezo (BBQ style) sparker that was integrated with the unit as factory equipment). Energy efficient and simple. There are rare non electric units still available (sometimes at a premium) if you look hard in the US. Alternatively, look no further than Canada and Mexico for the same non electric Bosch models outlawed in the US. The Paloma has been out of production for some time, so when my remaining new natural gas units are gone, I will not be able to get any more either. Best wishes, Bill Loesch 314 631 1094 -----------------------------------------From: "Ray" To: Cc: Sent: 20-Mar-2018 21:15:19 +0000 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person Rianai have 3 major issues when used off grid. 1) The phantom load when I checked was over 30 watts continuous. That's over 700 w-hr/ day. 2) They need pure sine wave, and even have trouble on Trace SW inverters. (One system I took over has a separate Exeltech on its own battery and AC charger to run the Rianai, since they have Trace inverters. Talk about a waste!) 3) They still have the hard well water scaling issues. Ray Remote Solar On 3/20/18 12:03 PM, Dana wrote: It used to be that “tankless” water heaters were very sensitive to stable temperature production as flows from single handle facets shut down the hot and opened the cold flows. I can fully recommend the Rianai heaters of today as we have 2 in offgrid and 0 issues. I have family members that have had them in residential homes for several years also and 0 issues. They do require 120 vac & have digital controls. The water temperature is very stable & consistent. I have not measured the phantom load but could if someone needs to know. 2 thumbs up for Rianai heaters from MHO. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 DANA at SOLARWORK.COM [1] Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz [2] "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. FROM: RE-wrenches [3] ON BEHALF OF cwarfel SENT: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 11:48 AM TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person What are the issues with tankless water heaters? I have heard them described as having "issues", but I haven't read anything that describes what they are. They are very popular where I live. Any info? Thanks, Chris On 3/20/2018 1:07 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost always the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm. An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed loop if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating water with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing to add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on extremely efficient mini split air source pumps. I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it allows one to have more options. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [5]http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [7] text 209 813 0060 Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient are the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for about $1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe, and anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know all pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be a pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper involved and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but think for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more energy. On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake Links: ------ [1] http://mail2.spectrum.net/MAILTO:DANA at SOLARWORK.COM [2] http://www.solarwork.biz [3] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [7] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [8] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [9] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei= [12] https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei= [13] mailto:barton at solarips.com [14] mailto:barton at solarips.com [15] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [16] http://www.solarips.com [17] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [21] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [22] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [23] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [24] http://entech-engineering.com [25] http://entech-engineering.com [26] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [27] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [28] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [29] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches [30] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches [31] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [32] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [33] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [34] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [35] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [36] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches [37] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches [38] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [39] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [40] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [41] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [42] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [43] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches [44] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches [45] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [46] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [47] http://www.solarips.com [48] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [49] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [50] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [51] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [52] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [53] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [54] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [55] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [56] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [57] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [58] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [59] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [60] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [61] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [62] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [63] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [64] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [65] http://entech-engineering.com [66] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [67] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [68] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [69] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [70] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [71] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [72] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 04:30:58 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 08:30:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fuses In-Reply-To: <3E67BDA6-9C3D-457C-8188-EF257543D20B@4fast.net> References: <3E67BDA6-9C3D-457C-8188-EF257543D20B@4fast.net> Message-ID: Bob O Interesting idea, humidity is 70 + most of the time Jerry On Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 6:39 AM Bob-O Schultze wrote: > I have replaced a few paper fuses over the years in outside boxes which > appear to have failed due to moisture as there was no other faults. > > On Mar 18, 2018, at 10:39 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi Jerry, > > Curious what amp rating the fuses are and what the ISC rating of the > modules are. > > Thx > Jay > Peltz power. > > > On Mar 17, 2018, at 8:26 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > > > Wrenches > > I have a question that I do not have an answer for that I can prove, > here it is, I have 25 ABB 20 k. three phase inverters on a .5 meg ground > mount site , I have also seen this on systems with SMA tripower and Fronius > 8.2 and trio inverters on roof mounted systems, intermittently one combiner > will blow a fuse and 9 times out of 10 it will be a negative fuse. PPA > holders or CFO's of these systems would like to know why and other than a > wake up surge or shade issue which could effect the negative side but > that's really a stretch to say for sure. We have sites located in dry and > wet locations around the islands, we have different brands of inverters but > the fuses are what the inverter manufacture included in their > combiner/switches. I am proposing to only use a slow blow fuse in the > future with all of our new systems regardless of what is included in the > combiners but with hundreds of fuses out there its a tough call to replace > as they fail or just for it and change them all in advanc > e per site. I Look forward to your thoughts and ideas, maybe its something > else altogether. > > Jerry > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Wed Mar 21 18:26:43 2018 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 22:26:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] tesla solar roof tiles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <81977632.4896669.1521671203775@mail.yahoo.com> There is another interesting player in this space called Forward Labs - https://www.forwardsolarroofing.com/. They make a standing seam roof product with crystalline cells that makes the cells invisible from the ground. I'd be interested to know how many watts per "module" Tesla and Forward Labs each can achieve. Cheers,Jerry Caldwell On Wednesday, March 7, 2018, 9:21:41 AM PST, Dan Fink wrote: Jay; all I know is that a few of my recently graduated students who are already Solar City employee PV installers have been training in California for solar roof installs.Tesla is notoriously tight-lipped about anything, like product specifications, temperature coefficients, anything that would help anyone not already in their back pocket. Dan FinkProfessor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech InstituteIREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional~ Small Wind InstallerExecutive Director, Buckville EnergyNABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342   On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 5:51 PM, jay wrote: OK all, I have a question about their tile roofs. Anyone know if they are set up for module level shut down? Or anybody have any anything about them? And I heard that they are advertising for installers, ie they are starting a new not Solar city install company? Comments? thx jay ______________________________ _________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/ options.cgi/re-wrenches-re- wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette. htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at westcoastsustainables.com Fri Mar 23 21:02:48 2018 From: jason at westcoastsustainables.com (Jason Andrade) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2018 18:02:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Ibew_is_working_to_exclude_C-46_contracto?= =?utf-8?q?r=E2=80=99s_from_installing_Batteries=2E?= Message-ID: Hi at this point I believe this is a California only issue, but I was contacted by CalSeia today and was asked to be involved in a discussion regarding a move where only a C-10 contractor can install a battery based system This was news to me but they sent me a pdf outlining the issue and I will read it over this weekend has anyone else heard about this? My instant response is what special training does the c10 have that the c46 doesn’t ? Jason Andrade West Coast Sustainables Sent from my iPhone From solar at 4fast.net Fri Mar 23 21:53:13 2018 From: solar at 4fast.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2018 18:53:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Ibew_is_working_to_exclude_C-46_contract?= =?utf-8?q?or=E2=80=99s_from_installing_Batteries=2E?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10F26963-BF81-4357-9447-D8B0D5F8E60E@4fast.net> I haven’t heard about this but I’ve been calling for it for decades. The C-46 started life as a solar thermal license. Still is. When PVs first hit the scene in the 80s, the CSLB, in it’s idiocy, decided that a solar panel was a solar panel and stuck it in that classification. To be fair, in those days a 600W offgrid system was a fatty and there were no on-grid systems. Now, here we are in the age of 5-10KW offgrid systems and megawatt on-grid ones. You -and the rest of us here- should know that the real fire danger in an offgrid PV system is the storied energy in the batteries. Solid training and experience should be REQUIRED, but it is not. To answer your question, IMO there is no difference between an untrained C-10 or an untrained C-46 licensee. Neither should be allowed to install a permitted battery based system. That said, a C-10 electrician is far more versed in the NEC and general electrical best wiring practices than a C-46 installer is. Obviously there are many exceptional workers in the C-46 field these days and some godawful C-10s, but in general, I think that license class is an anachronism and shouldn’t be for PV installers. There should be a clear and easy path for experienced C-46 workers to upgrade to a C-10 with additional testing. Then, the C-46 should revert to solar thermal again. My two cents. Bob-O Schultze On Mar 23, 2018, at 6:02 PM, Jason Andrade wrote: Hi at this point I believe this is a California only issue, but I was contacted by CalSeia today and was asked to be involved in a discussion regarding a move where only a C-10 contractor can install a battery based system This was news to me but they sent me a pdf outlining the issue and I will read it over this weekend has anyone else heard about this? My instant response is what special training does the c10 have that the c46 doesn’t ? Jason Andrade West Coast Sustainables Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Fri Mar 23 21:15:33 2018 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2018 18:15:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Ibew_is_working_to_exclude_C-46_contract?= =?utf-8?q?or=E2=80=99s_from_installing_Batteries=2E?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0MIxBv-1f1Tiu2jcn-002bBJ@mrelay.perfora.net> Jason, I’d like to read the .pdf you refer to if that would not violate a Non-Disclosure Agreement. I am on the California Solar & Storage Association (formerly CalSEIA) Storage Subcommittee. Regards, Peter T. Parrish SolarGnosis / California Solar Engineering 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com From: Jason Andrade Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 6:02 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ibew is working to exclude C-46 contractor’s from installing Batteries. Hi at this point I believe this is a California only issue, but I was contacted by CalSeia today and was asked to be involved in a discussion regarding a move where only a C-10 contractor can install a battery based system This was news to me but they sent me a pdf outlining the issue and I will read it over this weekend has anyone else heard about this? My instant response is what special training does the c10 have that the c46 doesn’t ? Jason Andrade West Coast Sustainables Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 23:51:57 2018 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2018 22:51:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Ibew_is_working_to_exclude_C-46_contract?= =?utf-8?q?or=E2=80=99s_from_installing_Batteries=2E?= In-Reply-To: <0MIxBv-1f1Tiu2jcn-002bBJ@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0MIxBv-1f1Tiu2jcn-002bBJ@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: I’ve never heard of C-10 or C-46. A quick google search seems to point to it only being a CA thing. Nothing like this happening in MN. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 23, 2018, at 8:15 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: > > Jason, > > I’d like to read the .pdf you refer to if that would not violate a Non-Disclosure Agreement. I am on the California Solar & Storage Association (formerly CalSEIA) Storage Subcommittee. > > Regards, > > Peter T. Parrish > SolarGnosis / California Solar Engineering > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > peter.parrish at solargnosis.com > > From: Jason Andrade > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 6:02 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ibew is working to exclude C-46 contractor’s from installing Batteries. > > Hi at this point I believe this is a California only issue, but I was contacted by CalSeia today and was asked to be involved in a discussion regarding a move where only a C-10 contractor can install a battery based system > This was news to me but they sent me a pdf outlining the issue and I will read it over this weekend has anyone else heard about this? > My instant response is what special training does the c10 have that the c46 doesn’t ? > Jason Andrade > West Coast Sustainables > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at harvesthesun.com Sat Mar 24 01:39:43 2018 From: eric at harvesthesun.com (eric at harvesthesun.com) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2018 22:39:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?_Ibew_is_working_to_exclude_C-46_contract?= =?utf-8?q?or=E2=80=99s_from_installing_Batteries=2E?= Message-ID: <20180323223943.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.94783df62f.wbe@email13.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar at 4fast.net Sat Mar 24 16:41:22 2018 From: solar at 4fast.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 13:41:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Ibew_is_working_to_exclude_C-46_contract?= =?utf-8?q?or=E2=80=99s_from_installing_Batteries=2E?= In-Reply-To: References: <0MIxBv-1f1Tiu2jcn-002bBJ@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <23E4F265-C7C0-4E1A-AF37-314003D9A600@4fast.net> It’s totally a California issue. On Mar 23, 2018, at 8:51 PM, Solar wrote: I’ve never heard of C-10 or C-46. A quick google search seems to point to it only being a CA thing. Nothing like this happening in MN. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone On Mar 23, 2018, at 8:15 PM, Peter Parrish > wrote: > Jason, > > I’d like to read the .pdf you refer to if that would not violate a Non-Disclosure Agreement. I am on the California Solar & Storage Association (formerly CalSEIA) Storage Subcommittee. > > Regards, > > Peter T. Parrish > SolarGnosis / California Solar Engineering > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > peter.parrish at solargnosis.com > > From: Jason Andrade > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 6:02 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ibew is working to exclude C-46 contractor’s from installing Batteries. > > Hi at this point I believe this is a California only issue, but I was contacted by CalSeia today and was asked to be involved in a discussion regarding a move where only a C-10 contractor can install a battery based system > This was news to me but they sent me a pdf outlining the issue and I will read it over this weekend has anyone else heard about this? > My instant response is what special training does the c10 have that the c46 doesn’t ? > Jason Andrade > West Coast Sustainables > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Mon Mar 26 11:09:03 2018 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 09:09:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sharp ND167U1F solar module Message-ID: <013c01d3c514$61540370$23fc0a50$@OasisMontana.com> Hi Folks: I’m inquiring on behalf of a fellow who needs one Sharp ND167U1F solar module – used is OK. Does anyone have this to spare? He has one broken on his array. Thanks! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 12:25:51 2018 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (Joe Nelson) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 09:25:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Ibew_is_working_to_exclude_C-46_contract?= =?utf-8?q?or=E2=80=99s_from_installing_Batteries=2E?= In-Reply-To: <20180323223943.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.94783df62f.wbe@email13.godaddy.com> References: <20180323223943.06812fc9708b5dce7248b6be1695afce.94783df62f.wbe@email13.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <008f01d3c51f$1be2c1e0$53a845a0$@gmail.com> They sprung a relatively quiet “public comment” meeting on us, held at the CSLB offices in Sacramento last month. I spoke (unprepared) in front of the Committee on behalf of C-46 classification as did nearly a dozen other people. There were members of the IBEW there speaking on behalf of the utilities (Utility pdf’s available here http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Resources/BoardPackets/CommitteeMeetingPacket20180223.pdf and here http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Resources/BoardPackets/2-23-18_licensing_committee_mtg_handouts.pdf ) Pay close attention to the Utility’s support of the C-10’s position, as a thinly veiled nepotistic connection to their unions (and specifically the IBEW, since they have connections to members sitting on the Committee of the CSLB). Wendy (program director for all testing at the CSLB) was kind enough to illustrate several key facts during her portion of Q&A 1. There are more questions on the C-46 Examination specific to ESS (Energy Storage Systems) then there are on the C-10 Exam !! (think about that) . . 2. There are MORE questions specific to ESS on the C-46 Exam Then there are questions relating to Photovoltaics on the C-10 Exam (You don’t hear us trying to take away Pv from C-10’s!!) 3. They are quietly trying to corner us again, like they did a few years ago in relation to PCC (Point of Common Coupling) where they demanded a C-10 was necessary to make a final connection to a residential mains . . I am not the LEAST bit unfriendly to our fellow sparkies!! But PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE . . . STAND UP, SAY SOMETHING!! Write to the CSLB! CONTEST THESE ASSERTIONS that we are not qualified to handle storage, we have been handling storage since day one, as renewable energy in California was started with rural/off-grid electrification . . . Thank you, for letting me rant a little. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of eric at harvesthesun.com Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 10:40 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ibew is working to exclude C-46 contractor’s from installing Batteries. As a C46 since 2011 I'll contend that though the license may have its origins in thermal, according to the CSLB the designation is for both thermal and PV, and that is reflected in the licensure exam (to be licensed as a C46 one must be familiar with PV). What one does in their profession, whether ST or PV or both, after passing the exam and becoming licensed, is up to the contractor. I for one have done little ST over the past 7 years, and as a result of my PV work, have more battery experience than my C10 peers - speaking only for the C10s with whom I work and those I know. If the CSLB decides that batteries are the domain of C10 contractors and not solar electrical contractors, which would be erroneous IMHO - being not reflective of the reality of many C46 contractors today, some whom have been in BBU as long as BBU has been in solar, then I imagine the C46 holders that do BBU work will seek to add the C10 license, as would I. Until then, I will join CalSSA in advocating for the status quo. Thanks for sharing, Jason. Peter, you can reach me through Byers Solar, we're a CalSSA member and C46 contractor (under my license). Eric Stikes SunHarvest Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at westcoastsustainables.com Mon Mar 26 12:56:04 2018 From: jason at westcoastsustainables.com (Jason Andrade) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 09:56:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ibew is working to exclude C-46 contractor?s from installing Batteries. Message-ID: <99655DD4-C11B-4A9D-9C1F-EC831DD4D14A@westcoastsustainables.com> Ultimately I think handing off ESS just to the C-10 is unjust and if its a real concern they should make it a separate classification, I have a C46 and the ESS project that I just completed for Governor Brown’s off grid ranch was what I feel is top notch work that shows a C46 can hang with the C10 :) West Coast Sustainables Jason Andrade 530-410-4745 From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of eric at harvesthesun.com Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 10:40 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ibew is working to exclude C-46 contractor?s from installing Batteries. As a C46 since 2011 I'll contend that though the license may have its origins in thermal, according to the CSLB the designation is for both thermal and PV, and that is reflected in the licensure exam (to be licensed as a C46 one must be familiar with PV). What one does in their profession, whether ST or PV or both, after passing the exam and becoming licensed, is up to the contractor. I for one have done little ST over the past 7 years, and as a result of my PV work, have more battery experience than my C10 peers - speaking only for the C10s with whom I work and those I know. If the CSLB decides that batteries are the domain of C10 contractors and not solar electrical contractors, which would be erroneous IMHO - being not reflective of the reality of many C46 contractors today, some whom have been in BBU as long as BBU has been in solar, then I imagine the C46 holders that do BBU work will seek to add the C10 license, as would I. Until then, I will join CalSSA in advocating for the s tatus quo. Thanks for sharing, Jason. Peter, you can reach me through Byers Solar, we're a CalSSA member and C46 contractor (under my license). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russo.lou at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 14:22:59 2018 From: russo.lou at gmail.com (Lou Russo) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 08:22:59 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Ibew_is_working_to_exclude_C-46_contract?= =?utf-8?q?or=E2=80=99s_from_installing_Batteries=2E?= In-Reply-To: References: <0MIxBv-1f1Tiu2jcn-002bBJ@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: Although the licence numbers are different here in Hawaii County, They have stopped accepting a C-60 (Solar Power Systems) all together about 2 years ago. They now only accept C-13 (Electrical Contractor) for any PV project, ESS or not. It was a hard pill to swallow, but ultimately it forced us to get the C-13. Basically the Solar Power Systems contractors licence is completely useless here in Hawaii county. Maybe this is the canary in the coal mine and you all should start working towards the additional licence class. The benefit for us is that we now take wiring jobs to fill in the gaps between our PV projects. Aloha, Lou Russo (440) 345 6762 On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 5:51 PM, Solar wrote: > I’ve never heard of C-10 or C-46. A quick google search seems to point to > it only being a CA thing. Nothing like this happening in MN. > > Jesse Dahl > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 23, 2018, at 8:15 PM, Peter Parrish > wrote: > > Jason, > > > > I’d like to read the .pdf you refer to if that would not violate a > Non-Disclosure Agreement. I am on the California Solar & Storage > Association (formerly CalSEIA) Storage Subcommittee. > > > > Regards, > > > > Peter T. Parrish > SolarGnosis / California Solar Engineering > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > peter.parrish at solargnosis.com > > > > *From: *Jason Andrade > *Sent: *Friday, March 23, 2018 6:02 PM > *To: *re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] Ibew is working to exclude C-46 contractor’s > from installing Batteries. > > > > Hi at this point I believe this is a California only issue, but I was > contacted by CalSeia today and was asked to be involved in a discussion > regarding a move where only a C-10 contractor can install a battery based > system > > This was news to me but they sent me a pdf outlining the issue and I will > read it over this weekend has anyone else heard about this? > > My instant response is what special training does the c10 have that the > c46 doesn’t ? > > Jason Andrade > > West Coast Sustainables > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 20:01:22 2018 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 14:01:22 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Ibew_is_working_to_exclude_C-46_contract?= =?utf-8?q?or=E2=80=99s_from_installing_Batteries=2E?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aloha All, Does anybody know the requirements for the C-46? I would assume if you could qualify for that ( C-46) you could also qualify for a C-10 (C-13 Hawaii). The full license gives one the ability to do anything, and this seems like the way to go for versatility. "If you can't beat'em...join them." *C-10 - Electrical Contractor* An electrical contractor places, installs, erects or connects any electrical wires, fixtures, appliances, apparatus, raceways, conduits, solar photovoltaic cells or any part thereof, which generate, transmit, transform or utilize electrical energy in any form or for any purpose. What is needed to qualify: Applicants are required to have 4 years’ experience to qualify to take the exam. Experience must be at the journeyman, foreman or supervisor, contractor, or as an owner-builder. All applicants must have a working capital of at least $2,500. In addition, all applicants must also file a bond with the Registrar in the amount of $10,000. *C-46 - Solar Contractor* A solar contractor installs, modifies, maintains, and repairs thermal and photovoltaic solar energy systems. A licensee classified in this section shall not undertake or perform building or construction trades, crafts, or skills, except when required to install a thermal or photovoltaic solar energy system. *James B. Rudolph* *Hawaii Unifed* *Director of Energy* *ES Electrician # 10816* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-1* On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 3:02 PM, Jason Andrade < jason at westcoastsustainables.com> wrote: > Hi at this point I believe this is a California only issue, but I was > contacted by CalSeia today and was asked to be involved in a discussion > regarding a move where only a C-10 contractor can install a battery based > system > This was news to me but they sent me a pdf outlining the issue and I will > read it over this weekend has anyone else heard about this? > My instant response is what special training does the c10 have that the > c46 doesn’t ? > Jason Andrade > West Coast Sustainables > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at seesolar.com Mon Mar 26 20:27:48 2018 From: max at seesolar.com (Max Balchowsky) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 17:27:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Ibew_is_working_to_exclude_C-46_contract?= =?utf-8?q?or=E2=80=99s_from_installing_Batteries=2E?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C73DD14-0A0D-43B2-A946-3555B83655B6@seesolar.com> License Bond is now 15K Max Balchowsky Solar Electric Energy Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 C-10 422405 760-403-6810 "Building a Better Future For The Next Generation" > On Mar 26, 2018, at 5:01 PM, James Rudolph wrote: > > Aloha All, > Does anybody know the requirements for the C-46? I would assume if you could qualify for that ( C-46) you could also qualify for a C-10 (C-13 Hawaii). > The full license gives one the ability to do anything, and this seems like the way to go for versatility. "If you can't beat'em...join them." > > C-10 - Electrical Contractor > > An electrical contractor places, installs, erects or connects any electrical wires, fixtures, appliances, apparatus, raceways, conduits, solar photovoltaic cells or any part thereof, which generate, transmit, transform or utilize electrical energy in any form or for any purpose. > > What is needed to qualify: > > Applicants are required to have 4 years’ experience to qualify to take the exam. Experience must be at the journeyman, foreman or supervisor, contractor, or as an owner-builder. > > All applicants must have a working capital of at least $2,500. In addition, all applicants must also file a bond with the Registrar in the amount of $10,000. > > > C-46 - Solar Contractor > > A solar contractor installs, modifies, maintains, and repairs thermal and photovoltaic solar energy systems. A licensee classified in this section shall not undertake or perform building or construction trades, crafts, or skills, except when required to install a thermal or photovoltaic solar energy system. > > > > > James B. Rudolph > Hawaii Unifed > Director of Energy > ES Electrician # 10816 > NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-1 > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 3:02 PM, Jason Andrade > wrote: > Hi at this point I believe this is a California only issue, but I was contacted by CalSeia today and was asked to be involved in a discussion regarding a move where only a C-10 contractor can install a battery based system > This was news to me but they sent me a pdf outlining the issue and I will read it over this weekend has anyone else heard about this? > My instant response is what special training does the c10 have that the c46 doesn’t ? > Jason Andrade > West Coast Sustainables > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 20:48:51 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 17:48:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite MNBCB Message-ID: <828ED126-C5F0-404A-8CA6-4ABCF6D43554@gmail.com> Does anyone know the K/O sizes, spacing on the MNBCB? I can’t find any spec sheet on it and midnite hasn’t gotten back to me. I’m trying to figure out if any of the KO’s match the Classic charge controller KO spacing. Thanks Jay Peltz power. From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Mar 30 10:20:51 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 10:20:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ series inverters Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have a track record on the Enphase IQ inverter? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Fri Mar 30 11:13:39 2018 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 15:13:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ series inverters In-Reply-To: <20180330142145.F1550107BC8@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180330142145.F1550107BC8@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: We've been using them for about a year now. So far no failures which is quite remarkable considering the fairly large number that we've installed. We're keeping our fingers crossed! Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Drake Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 10:20:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ series inverters Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have a track record on the Enphase IQ inverter? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Mar 30 11:16:57 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 08:16:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ series inverters In-Reply-To: References: <20180330142145.F1550107BC8@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Wayne: Have you had any difficulties with communications reliability? Do you install a separate load center for Enphase Equipment? Are there any tips or tricks one might not be aware of? Thank you for any information you can share. Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Wayne Irwin *Sent:* Friday, March 30, 2018 8:14 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ series inverters We've been using them for about a year now. So far no failures which is quite remarkable considering the fairly large number that we've installed. We're keeping our fingers crossed! Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ------------------------------ *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf of Drake *Sent:* Friday, March 30, 2018 10:20:51 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ series inverters Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have a track record on the Enphase IQ inverter? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin *Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Fri Mar 30 14:11:15 2018 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 18:11:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ series inverters In-Reply-To: References: <20180330142145.F1550107BC8@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> , Message-ID: We always install a separate sub-panel for all Enphase circuits with the Envoy tied in the sub panel bas well. Communication is never an issue with this method. I have to say that Enphase may have (dare I say it) the most reliable monitoring available. One trick we've learned is, if possible, use the wps option to gain web access so that when your customer changes their WiFi password the Envoy is not locked out causing you to make another trip. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 11:16:57 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ series inverters Wayne: Have you had any difficulties with communications reliability? Do you install a separate load center for Enphase Equipment? Are there any tips or tricks one might not be aware of? Thank you for any information you can share. Sincerely, William Miller [Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Wayne Irwin Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 8:14 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ series inverters We've been using them for about a year now. So far no failures which is quite remarkable considering the fairly large number that we've installed. We're keeping our fingers crossed! Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Drake > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 10:20:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ series inverters Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have a track record on the Enphase IQ inverter? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 15:23:17 2018 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 14:23:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ series inverters In-Reply-To: References: <20180330142145.F1550107BC8@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: one thing that's cool with the new IQ system is that you have the option to not only monitor your production, but also your consumption. in order to do this you will need to run a CT to the lineside of your MSP, so even if you use a dedicated load center for Enphase equip, be prepared to run wire to the MSP if you want to use the consumption feature. also worth noting that while their isn't a neutral coming from the inverters, you will need a neutral in the load center for the envoy... Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 1:11 PM, Wayne Irwin wrote: > We always install a separate sub-panel for all Enphase circuits with the > Envoy tied in the sub panel bas well. Communication is never an issue with > this method. I have to say that Enphase may have (dare I say it) the most > reliable monitoring available. > One trick we've learned is, if possible, use the wps option to gain web > access so that when your customer changes their WiFi password the Envoy is > not locked out causing you to make another trip. > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 <(352)%20377-6527> Office > 352 336-3299 <(352)%20336-3299> Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of William Miller > *Sent:* Friday, March 30, 2018 11:16:57 AM > > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ series inverters > > > Wayne: > > > > Have you had any difficulties with communications reliability? Do you > install a separate load center for Enphase Equipment? Are there any tips > or tricks one might not be aware of? > > > > Thank you for any information you can share. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > > 805-438-5600 <(805)%20438-5600> > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Wayne Irwin > *Sent:* Friday, March 30, 2018 8:14 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ series inverters > > > > We've been using them for about a year now. So far no failures which is > quite remarkable considering the fairly large number that we've installed. > We're keeping our fingers crossed! > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > > http://SolarChargingStation.net > > 352 377-6527 <(352)%20377-6527> Office > 352 336-3299 <(352)%20336-3299> Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > ------------------------------ > > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Drake > *Sent:* Friday, March 30, 2018 10:20:51 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ series inverters > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone have a track record on the Enphase IQ inverter? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 <(740)%20448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 19:26:40 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 16:26:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rail less standing seam attachments Message-ID: HI All, I’ve got a client who is set on wanting to do rail less racking. I’m just working with him on overall design, hes doing the work. Its not a large system. 16 modules on two roof orientations, ( 4 on one, 12 on the other) with offset modules. Standing metal seam roof that is being installed with solar in mind, lots of fasteners. Hes very competent and pays attention to details. Any positive/negative recommendations. thanks in advance, jay peltz power From findsolar at herzfeld.org Fri Mar 30 19:13:27 2018 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 23:13:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Ibew_is_working_to_exclude_C-46_contract?= =?utf-8?q?or=E2=80=99s_from_installing_Batteries=2E?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 1. "... license gives one the ability to do anything, " but maybe not as well as a solar energy systems *specialty* contractor in California. :) 2. Experience requirements for both and all may be found here: http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Contractors/Applicants/Contractors_License/Exam_Application/Experience_For_Exam.aspx 3. For example, I also have a C-7 (Instrumentation - Monitoring), D31(Pole Mounts) and D56 (Trenching - Ground-Mounts) In other words, bump cap, hard hat (helmet), or feather? Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037 https://www.youracclaim.com/badges/a54a49a9-31cb-4f52-b35f-9d7c90630bb9/public_url Adjunct Professor, Energy, American River College California Solar Contractor License #00833782 C46, D56, D31, C-7 Solar, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation email: mail at herzfeld.org Contract PV Systems Inspector Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30 OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG Registered North American Board of Certified Energy Practioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Provider On Mon, Mar 26, 2018, 5:01 PM James Rudolph wrote: > Aloha All, > Does anybody know the requirements for the C-46? I would assume if you > could qualify for that ( C-46) you could also qualify for a C-10 (C-13 > Hawaii). > The full license gives one the ability to do anything, and this seems like > the way to go for versatility. "If you can't beat'em...join them." > > *C-10 - Electrical Contractor* > > An electrical contractor places, installs, erects or connects any > electrical wires, fixtures, appliances, apparatus, raceways, conduits, > solar photovoltaic cells or any part thereof, which generate, transmit, > transform or utilize electrical energy in any form or for any purpose. > > > > > *C-46 - Solar Contractor* > > A solar contractor installs, modifies, maintains, and repairs thermal and > photovoltaic solar energy systems. A licensee classified in this section > shall not undertake or perform building or construction trades, crafts, or > skills, except when required to install a thermal or photovoltaic solar > energy system. > What is needed to qualify: http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Contractors/Applicants/Contractors_License/Exam_Application/Experience_For_Exam.aspx > > > *James B. Rudolph* > > *Hawaii Unifed* > > *Director of Energy* > > *ES Electrician # 10816* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-1* > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 3:02 PM, Jason Andrade < > jason at westcoastsustainables.com> wrote: > >> Hi at this point I believe this is a California only issue, but I was >> contacted by CalSeia today and was asked to be involved in a discussion >> regarding a move where only a C-10 contractor can install a battery based >> system >> This was news to me but they sent me a pdf outlining the issue and I will >> read it over this weekend has anyone else heard about this? >> My instant response is what special training does the c10 have that the >> c46 doesn’t ? >> Jason Andrade >> West Coast Sustainables >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Mar 30 22:34:50 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 19:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] rail less standing seam attachments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65ea275317ff47fde6101a2740a2d429.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Hi Jay, It is a big mistake to do this if ground mounting is an option. I do not believe the engineering over time. Nuff said by me! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > HI All, > > I’ve got a client who is set on wanting to do rail less racking. I’m > just working with him on overall design, hes doing the work. > > Its not a large system. 16 modules on two roof orientations, ( 4 on one, > 12 on the other) with offset modules. Standing metal seam roof that is > being installed with solar in mind, lots of fasteners. > > Hes very competent and pays attention to details. > > Any positive/negative recommendations. > > thanks in advance, > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From william at millersolar.com Sat Mar 31 01:27:44 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 22:27:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rail less standing seam attachments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7c7806f23ea0284a25a2411bf12a4331@mail.gmail.com> Jay: This concept was discussed in this forum recently, so if you have been away you might check the archives. Cons I remember included: awkward spacing of module support points, no wire management, confusing options for clip selection, likely poor module alignment and poor ventilation. There may be more cons and I guess the only pro I can think of is saving the cost of rail? I have looked into it and I just haven't been convinced it is a good idea. William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 4:27 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] rail less standing seam attachments HI All, I’ve got a client who is set on wanting to do rail less racking. I’m just working with him on overall design, hes doing the work. Its not a large system. 16 modules on two roof orientations, ( 4 on one, 12 on the other) with offset modules. Standing metal seam roof that is being installed with solar in mind, lots of fasteners. Hes very competent and pays attention to details. Any positive/negative recommendations. thanks in advance, jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 09:33:48 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 13:33:48 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rail less standing seam attachments In-Reply-To: <7c7806f23ea0284a25a2411bf12a4331@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c7806f23ea0284a25a2411bf12a4331@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I have done 2 systems rail less on standing seam. One was 7 modules on a trapezoid shaped roof with a skylight in it. Row of 3 on the bottom , row of two plus skylight on next row up and 2 modules on the top row. Modules were landscape. Wire management was difficult and we were 3 stories up on a milk carton shaped house but luckily had.a rugged hydraulic man lift the glass company was using to put in many large custom windows. This was probably the best mounting in this situation but the the other system was on a standard roof with 24 modules and it was a nightmare for positioning and wire management . We made the decision that we would never do it again. John Blittersdorf Jblittersdorf at robstubbinssolar.com ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: William Miller Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 1:37 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] rail less standing seam attachments To: RE-wrenches Jay: This concept was discussed in this forum recently, so if you have been away you might check the archives. Cons I remember included: awkward spacing of module support points, no wire management, confusing options for clip selection, likely poor module alignment and poor ventilation. There may be more cons and I guess the only pro I can think of is saving the cost of rail? I have looked into it and I just haven't been convinced it is a good idea. William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 4:27 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] rail less standing seam attachments HI All, I’ve got a client who is set on wanting to do rail less racking. I’m just working with him on overall design, iihes doing the work. Its not a large system. 16 modules on two roof orientations, ( 4 on one, 12 on the other) with offset modules. Standing metal seam roof that is being installed with solar in mind, lots of fasteners. Hes very competent and pays attention to details. Any positive/negative recommendations. thanks in advance, jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Sat Mar 31 11:00:05 2018 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 15:00:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rail less standing seam attachments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, Try Rooftech. There are no rails and you don’t need to find the rafters. They are great for do it yourselfers David On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 4:26 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’ve got a client who is set on wanting to do rail less racking. I’m > just working with him on overall design, hes doing the work. > > Its not a large system. 16 modules on two roof orientations, ( 4 on one, > 12 on the other) with offset modules. Standing metal seam roof that is > being installed with solar in mind, lots of fasteners. > > Hes very competent and pays attention to details. > > Any positive/negative recommendations. > > thanks in advance, > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunengser at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 13:00:59 2018 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 17:00:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rail less standing seam attachments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay Just finished using S5PV railess on standing seam roof 12x12 pitch. Worked great, but wire management was challenging with minimal clearance under modules. Had to think ahead to make it work. And still was a struggle. I also used 6 rather then 4 per module to even out the loads on the roof panels. I feel confident that it is solid, but I know how the roof was connected to include proper clip spacing and screw size for maximum wind load here in the Columbia Gorge and proper tacking of the top of the panel under the ridge to prevent sliding down. If I had it to do over I would however have used rails to make wire management easier! Bill On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 6:03 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’ve got a client who is set on wanting to do rail less racking. I’m > just working with him on overall design, hes doing the work. > > Its not a large system. 16 modules on two roof orientations, ( 4 on one, > 12 on the other) with offset modules. Standing metal seam roof that is > being installed with solar in mind, lots of fasteners. > > Hes very competent and pays attention to details. > > Any positive/negative recommendations. > > thanks in advance, > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Mar 31 13:19:37 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 11:19:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rail less standing seam attachments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3faf6dec-d224-d657-5ca4-18c490b68149@solarray.com> Hi Bill; Not to hijack the thread, but how did you handle fall protection and work safely on that 12:12 pitch metal roof?  I have a steep standing seam roof project coming up.  We wanted to set a ledger board on S5 clips, but were worried they would leave visible damage to the new roof. Thanks Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/31/18 11:00 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote: > Jay > Just finished using S5PV railess on standing seam roof 12x12 pitch.  > Worked great, but wire management was challenging with minimal > clearance under modules.  Had to think ahead to make it work.  And > still was a struggle.  I also used 6 rather then 4 per module to even > out the loads on the roof panels.  I feel confident that it is solid, > but I know how the roof was connected to include proper clip spacing > and screw size for maximum wind load here in the Columbia Gorge and > proper tacking of the top of the panel under the ridge to prevent > sliding down.  If I had it to do over I would however have used rails > to make wire management easier! > > Bill > > On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 6:03 PM jay > wrote: > > HI All, > > I’ve got a client who is set on wanting to do rail less racking.  >  I’m just working with him on overall design, hes doing the work. > > Its not a large system.  16 modules on two roof orientations, ( 4 > on one, 12 on the other)  with offset modules.  Standing metal > seam roof that is being installed with solar in mind, lots of > fasteners. > > Hes very competent and pays attention to details. > > Any positive/negative recommendations. > > thanks in advance, > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Mon Apr 2 09:28:26 2018 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2018 09:28:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rail less standing seam attachments In-Reply-To: <3faf6dec-d224-d657-5ca4-18c490b68149@solarray.com> References: <3faf6dec-d224-d657-5ca4-18c490b68149@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, Standing seam roofs are easier when it comes to fall protection than a trapezoidal style metal roof which there are tons of in upstate NY... For a standing seam roof, they make anchors that will attach to the seam. When the job is done, they can be removed and reused. We have a few of these: https://www.fallprotectionpros.com/guardian-two-way-standing-seam-roof-anchor.html Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Senior Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 www.taitem.com On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 1:19 PM, Ray wrote: > Hi Bill; > > Not to hijack the thread, but how did you handle fall protection and work > safely on that 12:12 pitch metal roof? I have a steep standing seam roof > project coming up. We wanted to set a ledger board on S5 clips, but were > worried they would leave visible damage to the new roof. > > Thanks > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > On 3/31/18 11:00 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote: > > Jay > Just finished using S5PV railess on standing seam roof 12x12 pitch. > Worked great, but wire management was challenging with minimal clearance > under modules. Had to think ahead to make it work. And still was a > struggle. I also used 6 rather then 4 per module to even out the loads on > the roof panels. I feel confident that it is solid, but I know how the > roof was connected to include proper clip spacing and screw size for > maximum wind load here in the Columbia Gorge and proper tacking of the top > of the panel under the ridge to prevent sliding down. If I had it to do > over I would however have used rails to make wire management easier! > > Bill > > On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 6:03 PM jay wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I’ve got a client who is set on wanting to do rail less racking. I’m >> just working with him on overall design, hes doing the work. >> >> Its not a large system. 16 modules on two roof orientations, ( 4 on one, >> 12 on the other) with offset modules. Standing metal seam roof that is >> being installed with solar in mind, lots of fasteners. >> >> Hes very competent and pays attention to details. >> >> Any positive/negative recommendations. >> >> thanks in advance, >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Apr 2 20:23:45 2018 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2018 18:23:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rail less standing seam attachments In-Reply-To: <3faf6dec-d224-d657-5ca4-18c490b68149@solarray.com> References: <3faf6dec-d224-d657-5ca4-18c490b68149@solarray.com> Message-ID: <64F5A7A5-183C-454E-B384-AFC83D8A9CE6@skyfireenergy.com> Ray, I believe S5! offers an approved roof anchor that attaches to standing seams. A bit pricy (few hundred, I think) especially considering they are one per person but sometimes that's the cost of safety. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Mar 31, 2018, at 11:19 AM, Ray wrote: > > Hi Bill; > > Not to hijack the thread, but how did you handle fall protection and work safely on that 12:12 pitch metal roof? I have a steep standing seam roof project coming up. We wanted to set a ledger board on S5 clips, but were worried they would leave visible damage to the new roof. > Thanks > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > >> On 3/31/18 11:00 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote: >> Jay >> Just finished using S5PV railess on standing seam roof 12x12 pitch. Worked great, but wire management was challenging with minimal clearance under modules. Had to think ahead to make it work. And still was a struggle. I also used 6 rather then 4 per module to even out the loads on the roof panels. I feel confident that it is solid, but I know how the roof was connected to include proper clip spacing and screw size for maximum wind load here in the Columbia Gorge and proper tacking of the top of the panel under the ridge to prevent sliding down. If I had it to do over I would however have used rails to make wire management easier! >> >> Bill >> >>> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 6:03 PM jay wrote: >>> HI All, >>> >>> I’ve got a client who is set on wanting to do rail less racking. I’m just working with him on overall design, hes doing the work. >>> >>> Its not a large system. 16 modules on two roof orientations, ( 4 on one, 12 on the other) with offset modules. Standing metal seam roof that is being installed with solar in mind, lots of fasteners. >>> >>> Hes very competent and pays attention to details. >>> >>> Any positive/negative recommendations. >>> >>> thanks in advance, >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Apr 3 11:32:46 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 11:32:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pond Aerators Message-ID: At one time, simple solar pond aerators were available. A small PV module and a box with a 12 V deep cycle battery, and a pump were mounted on a post. A hose with a weight on it went into the pond. This system seemed to work well for small ponds. Does anything like this still exist? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Apr 3 11:43:43 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:43:43 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pond Aerators In-Reply-To: <20180403153331.6F12E107CDE@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180403153331.6F12E107CDE@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Sounds like it is easy enough to make one On Tue, Apr 3, 2018, 8:33 AM Drake wrote: > At one time, simple solar pond aerators were available. A small PV module > and a box with a 12 V deep cycle battery, and a pump were mounted on a > post. A hose with a weight on it went into the pond. This system seemed to > work well for small ponds. > > Does anything like this still exist? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Apr 3 12:41:55 2018 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 16:41:55 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pond Aerators In-Reply-To: <20180403153330.872AE1000FB@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180403153330.872AE1000FB@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hi Drake, Let me know if you need help finding supplier contacts. In past we have sourced aerators and 12V compressors from aquaculture industry supply shops. They had many options available, match the compressor to PV module with LCB and done deal. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: April-03-18 8:33 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pond Aerators At one time, simple solar pond aerators were available. A small PV module and a box with a 12 V deep cycle battery, and a pump were mounted on a post. A hose with a weight on it went into the pond. This system seemed to work well for small ponds. Does anything like this still exist? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Apr 3 12:11:33 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:11:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pond Aerators In-Reply-To: <20180403153332.2D237107D32@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180403153332.2D237107D32@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <001401d3cb66$734cebc0$59e6c340$@solarwork.com> An internet search of "solar pond aeration" turned up a variety of options. I was trying to find the company I had used for new installs in CO and repair of existing systems but did not locate that company. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2018 9:33 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pond Aerators At one time, simple solar pond aerators were available. A small PV module and a box with a 12 V deep cycle battery, and a pump were mounted on a post. A hose with a weight on it went into the pond. This system seemed to work well for small ponds. Does anything like this still exist? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Apr 3 15:03:58 2018 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 13:03:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please Message-ID: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> Hey folks: What section of the Code relates to the 3' clearance for a solar array? …as in, the roof area around the array. I’ve been scrutinizing the NEC til my eyes are crossed….. THANKS! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Tue Apr 3 16:10:09 2018 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 14:10:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please In-Reply-To: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <99924EC4-4774-4102-85D8-5EAD1641F5E2@solarenergy.org> Access pathways and clearances are in the International Fire Code and International Residential Code (and maybe other I-Codes as well). Brian > On Apr 3, 2018, at 1:03 PM, wrote: > > Hey folks: > > What section of the Code relates to the 3' clearance for a solar array? …as in, the roof area around the array. I’ve been scrutinizing the NEC til my eyes are crossed….. > > THANKS! > > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Apr 3 16:12:51 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 16:12:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pond Aerators In-Reply-To: <001401d3cb66$734cebc0$59e6c340$@solarwork.com> References: <20180403153332.2D237107D32@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <001401d3cb66$734cebc0$59e6c340$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I've worked with Keeton Industries, Inc. out of Fort Collins CO in the past. Try 970-493-4831. Its been a few years though. Christopher Schaefer On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 12:11 PM, Dana wrote: > An internet search of “solar pond aeration” turned up a variety of options. > > I was trying to find the company I had used for new installs in CO and > repair of existing systems but did not locate that company. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Drake > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 03, 2018 9:33 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Solar Pond Aerators > > > > At one time, simple solar pond aerators were available. A small PV module > and a box with a 12 V deep cycle battery, and a pump were mounted on a > post. A hose with a weight on it went into the pond. This system seemed to > work well for small ponds. > > Does anything like this still exist? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar > PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Apr 3 16:12:51 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 16:12:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pond Aerators In-Reply-To: <001401d3cb66$734cebc0$59e6c340$@solarwork.com> References: <20180403153332.2D237107D32@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <001401d3cb66$734cebc0$59e6c340$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I've worked with Keeton Industries, Inc. out of Fort Collins CO in the past. Try 970-493-4831. Its been a few years though. Christopher Schaefer On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 12:11 PM, Dana wrote: > An internet search of “solar pond aeration” turned up a variety of options. > > I was trying to find the company I had used for new installs in CO and > repair of existing systems but did not locate that company. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Drake > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 03, 2018 9:33 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Solar Pond Aerators > > > > At one time, simple solar pond aerators were available. A small PV module > and a box with a 12 V deep cycle battery, and a pump were mounted on a > post. A hose with a weight on it went into the pond. This system seemed to > work well for small ponds. > > Does anything like this still exist? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar > PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Tue Apr 3 17:26:55 2018 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 15:26:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please In-Reply-To: <99924EC4-4774-4102-85D8-5EAD1641F5E2@solarenergy.org> References: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> <99924EC4-4774-4102-85D8-5EAD1641F5E2@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: Free access to the I-Codes is available here: https://codes.iccsafe.org/public/collections/I-Codes See IRC R324.6.1 for pathways Rebekah Hren On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 2:10 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > Access pathways and clearances are in the International Fire Code and > International Residential Code (and maybe other I-Codes as well). > > Brian > > On Apr 3, 2018, at 1:03 PM, < > chris at OasisMontana.com> wrote: > > Hey folks: > > > > What section of the Code relates to the 3' clearance for a solar array? …as > in, the roof area around the array. I’ve been scrutinizing the NEC til > my eyes are crossed….. > > > > THANKS! > > > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aram at aramsolar.com Tue Apr 3 17:59:48 2018 From: aram at aramsolar.com (aram aramsolar.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 21:59:48 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please In-Reply-To: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Chris it’s not in the NEC it is a State of CA Fire code. Aram On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:52 PM, "chris at OasisMontana.com" > wrote: Hey folks: What section of the Code relates to the 3' clearance for a solar array? …as in, the roof area around the array. I’ve been scrutinizing the NEC til my eyes are crossed….. THANKS! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Tue Apr 3 18:07:23 2018 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 22:07:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please In-Reply-To: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Chris, What AHJ are you designing this for? We're only required to follow this IFC section in certain cities. Keep in mind there is a 2018 IFC as well as older versions. The 2018 is more favorable to us as designers and installers as it's not simply a 36" setback but in some cases can be as little as 18" at the ridgeline. - Sam On Tue, Apr 3, 2018, 13:52 wrote > What section of the Code relates to the 3' clearance for a solar array? …as > in, the roof area around the array. I’ve been scrutinizing the NEC til > my eyes are crossed….. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Apr 3 16:00:14 2018 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 14:00:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pond Aerators In-Reply-To: <001401d3cb66$734cebc0$59e6c340$@solarwork.com> References: <20180403153332.2D237107D32@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <001401d3cb66$734cebc0$59e6c340$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <02ad01d3cb86$620be800$2623b800$@OasisMontana.com> We have used these folks over the years: https://keetonaquatics.com/ and a company called Dripworks sells drip irrigation, pond liners and also aeration products. Sincerely, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Tuesday, April 3, 2018 10:12 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pond Aerators An internet search of "solar pond aeration" turned up a variety of options. I was trying to find the company I had used for new installs in CO and repair of existing systems but did not locate that company. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2018 9:33 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pond Aerators At one time, simple solar pond aerators were available. A small PV module and a box with a 12 V deep cycle battery, and a pump were mounted on a post. A hose with a weight on it went into the pond. This system seemed to work well for small ponds. Does anything like this still exist? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Tue Apr 3 16:32:28 2018 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 15:32:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pond Aerators In-Reply-To: <001401d3cb66$734cebc0$59e6c340$@solarwork.com> References: <20180403153332.2D237107D32@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <001401d3cb66$734cebc0$59e6c340$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: US Solar Mounts in Wisconsin makes nice packaged systems. https://www.ussolarmounts.us/resources/benefits-of-aeration/ -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 11:11 AM, Dana wrote: > An internet search of “solar pond aeration” turned up a variety of options. > > I was trying to find the company I had used for new installs in CO and > repair of existing systems but did not locate that company. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Drake > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 03, 2018 9:33 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Solar Pond Aerators > > > > At one time, simple solar pond aerators were available. A small PV module > and a box with a 12 V deep cycle battery, and a pump were mounted on a > post. A hose with a weight on it went into the pond. This system seemed to > work well for small ponds. > > Does anything like this still exist? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar > PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Apr 3 20:10:33 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 20:10:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rail less standing seam attachments In-Reply-To: <64F5A7A5-183C-454E-B384-AFC83D8A9CE6@skyfireenergy.com> References: <3faf6dec-d224-d657-5ca4-18c490b68149@solarray.com> <64F5A7A5-183C-454E-B384-AFC83D8A9CE6@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <00f001d3cba9$5aeed730$10cc8590$@glbcc.com> We use these with pretty good success, and pretty cheap compared to other options we found. http://www.industrialsafetyproducts.com/guardian-10600-fall-protection-two-way-universal-standing-seam-clamp/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwzIzWBRDnARIsAAkc8hF_TnEnoT5LwV1uyLKfvdTsmWkwrh-qWaUQFCCJywDd6QSHXmXFEhsaAiBoEALw_wcB -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn Sent: Monday, April 02, 2018 8:24 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] rail less standing seam attachments Ray, I believe S5! offers an approved roof anchor that attaches to standing seams. A bit pricy (few hundred, I think) especially considering they are one per person but sometimes that's the cost of safety. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 On Mar 31, 2018, at 11:19 AM, Ray > wrote: Hi Bill; Not to hijack the thread, but how did you handle fall protection and work safely on that 12:12 pitch metal roof? I have a steep standing seam roof project coming up. We wanted to set a ledger board on S5 clips, but were worried they would leave visible damage to the new roof. Thanks Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/31/18 11:00 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote: Jay Just finished using S5PV railess on standing seam roof 12x12 pitch. Worked great, but wire management was challenging with minimal clearance under modules. Had to think ahead to make it work. And still was a struggle. I also used 6 rather then 4 per module to even out the loads on the roof panels. I feel confident that it is solid, but I know how the roof was connected to include proper clip spacing and screw size for maximum wind load here in the Columbia Gorge and proper tacking of the top of the panel under the ridge to prevent sliding down. If I had it to do over I would however have used rails to make wire management easier! Bill On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 6:03 PM jay > wrote: HI All, I’ve got a client who is set on wanting to do rail less racking. I’m just working with him on overall design, hes doing the work. Its not a large system. 16 modules on two roof orientations, ( 4 on one, 12 on the other) with offset modules. Standing metal seam roof that is being installed with solar in mind, lots of fasteners. Hes very competent and pays attention to details. Any positive/negative recommendations. thanks in advance, jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Apr 3 22:21:38 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 02:21:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rail less standing seam attachments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay The S-5 PV kits do work, we have used them on many standing seam roofs, it does take time to eleminate issues with wiring but it can be a clean roof. Jerry On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 3:03 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’ve got a client who is set on wanting to do rail less racking. I’m > just working with him on overall design, hes doing the work. > > Its not a large system. 16 modules on two roof orientations, ( 4 on one, > 12 on the other) with offset modules. Standing metal seam roof that is > being installed with solar in mind, lots of fasteners. > > Hes very competent and pays attention to details. > > Any positive/negative recommendations. > > thanks in advance, > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 3 23:50:42 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 03:50:42 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please In-Reply-To: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: It is in the building code. It is for commercial flat roofs not for residential On Tue, Apr 3, 2018, 2:52 PM wrote: > Hey folks: > > > > What section of the Code relates to the 3' clearance for a solar array? …as > in, the roof area around the array. I’ve been scrutinizing the NEC til > my eyes are crossed….. > > > > THANKS! > > > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Apr 4 09:16:56 2018 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 07:16:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please In-Reply-To: References: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <7E475336-490F-4369-BBBE-C6610D7984DE@solarenergy.org> There are access/pathway requirements for both residential and commercial roofs (of course they are different, and the residential requirements only apply to 2:12 pitches or greater) in the IFC and IRC, and they’ve been in there since 2012. The 2018 edition of the IRC is more favorable in terms of allowing for more useable space than the 2015 edition. Brian > On Apr 3, 2018, at 9:50 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > > It is in the building code. It is for commercial flat roofs not for residential > >> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018, 2:52 PM wrote: >> Hey folks: >> >> >> >> What section of the Code relates to the 3' clearance for a solar array? …as in, the roof area around the array. I’ve been scrutinizing the NEC til my eyes are crossed….. >> >> >> >> THANKS! >> >> >> >> >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> 406-777-4309 >> >> 406-777-4309 fax >> >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Apr 4 01:36:46 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 22:36:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please In-Reply-To: References: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Darryl: If you are talking about California, I must respectfully disagree. If you are not talking about California, I am ignorant. California Fire Code, 2016 version, states the following for group R-3 buildings (which I am fairly certain includes single family homes). This includes provisions for pitched roofs. Upon first reading, I do not see any improvements over the previous version (2012) except that it appears clearance from valleys has reduced from 36” to 18”. These regulations are implemented by local fire Marshalls in California (sometimes the same person as the Chief, sometimes not). This gives the Marshalls complete discretion. I have had good luck negotiating with Marshalls and finding good compromises. Excerpt from 2016 California fire code. *605.11.1.1 Roof access points. Roof access points* *shall be located in areas that do not require the placement* *of ground ladders over openings such as windows* *or doors, and located at strong points of building construction* *in locations where the access point does not* *conflict with overhead obstructions such as tree limbs,* *wires or signs.* *605.11.1.2 Solar photovoltaic systems for Group R-3* *buildings. Solar photovoltaic systems for Group R-3* *buildings shall comply with Sections 605.11.1.2.1* *through 605.11.1.2.5.* *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* *structures designed and constructed in accordance* *with the California Residential Code.* *605.11.1.2.1 Size of solar photovoltaic array. Each* *photovoltaic array shall be limited to 150 feet (45* *720 mm) by 150 feet (45 720 mm). Multiple arrays* *shall be separated by a 3-foot-wide (914 mm) clear* *access pathway.* *605.11.1.2.2 Hip roof layouts. Panels and modules* *installed on Group R-3 buildings with hip roof layouts* *shall be located in a manner that provides a 3-* *foot-wide (914 mm) clear access pathway from the* *eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels* *and modules are located. The access pathway shall* *be at a location on the building capable of supporting* *the fire fighters accessing the roof.* *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* *horizontal (2:12) or less.* *605.11.1.2.3 Single-ridge roofs. Panels and modules* *installed on Group R-3 buildings with a single* *ridge shall be located in a manner that provides two,* *3-foot-wide (914 mm) access pathways from the* *eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels* *and modules are located.* *Exception: This requirement shall not apply to* *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* *horizontal (2:12) or less.* *605.11.1.2.4 Roofs with hips and valleys. Panels* *and modules installed on Group R-3 buildings with* *roof hips and valleys shall not be located closer than* *18 inches (457 mm) to a hip or a valley where panels/* *modules are to be placed on both sides of a hip or* *valley. Where panels are to be located on only one* *side of a hip or valley that is of equal length, the* *panels shall be permitted to be placed directly adjacent* *to the hip or valley.* *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* *horizontal (2:12) or less.* *605.11.1.2.5 Allowance for smoke ventilation* *operations. Panels and modules installed on Group* *R-3 buildings shall be located not less than 3 feet* *(914 mm) from the ridge** in order to allow for fire* *department smoke ventilation operations.* *Exception: Panels and modules shall be permitted* *to be located up to the roof ridge where an* *alternative ventilation method approved by the* *fire chief has been provided or where the fire* *chief has determined vertical ventilation techniques* *will not be employed.* *605.11.1.2.6 Locations of DC conductors. Conduit,* *wiring systems, and raceways for photovoltaic circuits* *shall be located as close as possible to the* *ridge or hip or valley and from the hip or valley as* *directly as possible to an outside wall to reduce trip* *hazards and maximize ventilation opportunities.* *Conduit runs between sub arrays and to DC combiner* *boxes shall be installed in a manner that minimizes* *the total amount of conduit on the roof by* *taking the shortest path from the array to the DC* *combiner box. The DC combiner boxes shall be* *located such that conduit runs are minimized in the* *pathways between arrays. DC wiring shall be* *installed in metallic conduit or raceways when* *located within enclosed spaces in a building. Conduit* *shall run along the bottom of load bearing* *members.* [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Darryl Thayer *Sent:* Tuesday, April 03, 2018 8:51 PM *To:* newrewrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please It is in the building code. It is for commercial flat roofs not for residential On Tue, Apr 3, 2018, 2:52 PM wrote: Hey folks: What section of the Code relates to the 3' clearance for a solar array? …as in, the roof area around the array. I’ve been scrutinizing the NEC til my eyes are crossed….. THANKS! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Apr 4 11:15:16 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 08:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please In-Reply-To: References: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <81642fa5f2282c885dd44ca3accd0970.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> It always depends on who you are working with ! Because of you folks putting solar panels on roofs, I have had a few fire Captains ask about clearances on ground mounted trackers:( Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Darryl: > > > > If you are talking about California, I must respectfully disagree. If you > are not talking about California, I am ignorant. > > > > California Fire Code, 2016 version, states the following for group R-3 > buildings (which I am fairly certain includes single family homes). This > includes provisions for pitched roofs. Upon first reading, I do not see > any improvements over the previous version (2012) except that it appears > clearance from valleys has reduced from 36” to 18”. > > > > These regulations are implemented by local fire Marshalls in California > (sometimes the same person as the Chief, sometimes not). This gives the > Marshalls complete discretion. I have had good luck negotiating with > Marshalls and finding good compromises. > > > > Excerpt from 2016 California fire code. > > > > *605.11.1.1 Roof access points. Roof access points* > > *shall be located in areas that do not require the placement* > > *of ground ladders over openings such as windows* > > *or doors, and located at strong points of building construction* > > *in locations where the access point does not* > > *conflict with overhead obstructions such as tree limbs,* > > *wires or signs.* > > > > *605.11.1.2 Solar photovoltaic systems for Group R-3* > > *buildings. Solar photovoltaic systems for Group R-3* > > *buildings shall comply with Sections 605.11.1.2.1* > > *through 605.11.1.2.5.* > > *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* > > *structures designed and constructed in accordance* > > *with the California Residential Code.* > > *605.11.1.2.1 Size of solar photovoltaic array. Each* > > *photovoltaic array shall be limited to 150 feet (45* > > *720 mm) by 150 feet (45 720 mm). Multiple arrays* > > *shall be separated by a 3-foot-wide (914 mm) clear* > > *access pathway.* > > *605.11.1.2.2 Hip roof layouts. Panels and modules* > > *installed on Group R-3 buildings with hip roof layouts* > > *shall be located in a manner that provides a 3-* > > *foot-wide (914 mm) clear access pathway from the* > > *eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels* > > *and modules are located. The access pathway shall* > > *be at a location on the building capable of supporting* > > *the fire fighters accessing the roof.* > > *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* > > *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* > > *horizontal (2:12) or less.* > > *605.11.1.2.3 Single-ridge roofs. Panels and modules* > > *installed on Group R-3 buildings with a single* > > *ridge shall be located in a manner that provides two,* > > *3-foot-wide (914 mm) access pathways from the* > > *eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels* > > *and modules are located.* > > *Exception: This requirement shall not apply to* > > *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* > > *horizontal (2:12) or less.* > > *605.11.1.2.4 Roofs with hips and valleys. Panels* > > *and modules installed on Group R-3 buildings with* > > *roof hips and valleys shall not be located closer than* > > *18 inches (457 mm) to a hip or a valley where panels/* > > *modules are to be placed on both sides of a hip or* > > *valley. Where panels are to be located on only one* > > *side of a hip or valley that is of equal length, the* > > *panels shall be permitted to be placed directly adjacent* > > *to the hip or valley.* > > *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* > > *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* > > *horizontal (2:12) or less.* > > *605.11.1.2.5 Allowance for smoke ventilation* > > *operations. Panels and modules installed on Group* > > *R-3 buildings shall be located not less than 3 feet* > > *(914 mm) from the ridge** in order to allow for fire* > > *department smoke ventilation operations.* > > *Exception: Panels and modules shall be permitted* > > *to be located up to the roof ridge where an* > > *alternative ventilation method approved by the* > > *fire chief has been provided or where the fire* > > *chief has determined vertical ventilation techniques* > > *will not be employed.* > > *605.11.1.2.6 Locations of DC conductors. Conduit,* > > *wiring systems, and raceways for photovoltaic circuits* > > *shall be located as close as possible to the* > > *ridge or hip or valley and from the hip or valley as* > > *directly as possible to an outside wall to reduce trip* > > *hazards and maximize ventilation opportunities.* > > *Conduit runs between sub arrays and to DC combiner* > > *boxes shall be installed in a manner that minimizes* > > *the total amount of conduit on the roof by* > > *taking the shortest path from the array to the DC* > > *combiner box. The DC combiner boxes shall be* > > *located such that conduit runs are minimized in the* > > *pathways between arrays. DC wiring shall be* > > *installed in metallic conduit or raceways when* > > *located within enclosed spaces in a building. Conduit* > > *shall run along the bottom of load bearing* > > *members.* > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Darryl Thayer > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 03, 2018 8:51 PM > *To:* newrewrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please > > > > It is in the building code. It is for commercial flat roofs not for > residential > > > > On Tue, Apr 3, 2018, 2:52 PM wrote: > > Hey folks: > > > > What section of the Code relates to the 3' clearance for a solar array? > …as in, the roof area around the array. I’ve been scrutinizing the > NEC til > my eyes are crossed….. > > > > THANKS! > > > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 4 11:22:58 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 15:22:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please In-Reply-To: References: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Thank you good comments, facts, i am in Mn my last 3 installs the fire marshal said he did not care, he would use the north side of the roof or not at all. On Wed, Apr 4, 2018, 9:53 AM William Miller wrote: > Darryl: > > > > If you are talking about California, I must respectfully disagree. If you > are not talking about California, I am ignorant. > > > > California Fire Code, 2016 version, states the following for group R-3 > buildings (which I am fairly certain includes single family homes). This > includes provisions for pitched roofs. Upon first reading, I do not see > any improvements over the previous version (2012) except that it appears > clearance from valleys has reduced from 36” to 18”. > > > > These regulations are implemented by local fire Marshalls in California > (sometimes the same person as the Chief, sometimes not). This gives the > Marshalls complete discretion. I have had good luck negotiating with > Marshalls and finding good compromises. > > > > Excerpt from 2016 California fire code. > > > > *605.11.1.1 Roof access points. Roof access points* > > *shall be located in areas that do not require the placement* > > *of ground ladders over openings such as windows* > > *or doors, and located at strong points of building construction* > > *in locations where the access point does not* > > *conflict with overhead obstructions such as tree limbs,* > > *wires or signs.* > > > > *605.11.1.2 Solar photovoltaic systems for Group R-3* > > *buildings. Solar photovoltaic systems for Group R-3* > > *buildings shall comply with Sections 605.11.1.2.1* > > *through 605.11.1.2.5.* > > *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* > > *structures designed and constructed in accordance* > > *with the California Residential Code.* > > *605.11.1.2.1 Size of solar photovoltaic array. Each* > > *photovoltaic array shall be limited to 150 feet (45* > > *720 mm) by 150 feet (45 720 mm). Multiple arrays* > > *shall be separated by a 3-foot-wide (914 mm) clear* > > *access pathway.* > > *605.11.1.2.2 Hip roof layouts. Panels and modules* > > *installed on Group R-3 buildings with hip roof layouts* > > *shall be located in a manner that provides a 3-* > > *foot-wide (914 mm) clear access pathway from the* > > *eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels* > > *and modules are located. The access pathway shall* > > *be at a location on the building capable of supporting* > > *the fire fighters accessing the roof.* > > *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* > > *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* > > *horizontal (2:12) or less.* > > *605.11.1.2.3 Single-ridge roofs. Panels and modules* > > *installed on Group R-3 buildings with a single* > > *ridge shall be located in a manner that provides two,* > > *3-foot-wide (914 mm) access pathways from the* > > *eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels* > > *and modules are located.* > > *Exception: This requirement shall not apply to* > > *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* > > *horizontal (2:12) or less.* > > *605.11.1.2.4 Roofs with hips and valleys. Panels* > > *and modules installed on Group R-3 buildings with* > > *roof hips and valleys shall not be located closer than* > > *18 inches (457 mm) to a hip or a valley where panels/* > > *modules are to be placed on both sides of a hip or* > > *valley. Where panels are to be located on only one* > > *side of a hip or valley that is of equal length, the* > > *panels shall be permitted to be placed directly adjacent* > > *to the hip or valley.* > > *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* > > *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* > > *horizontal (2:12) or less.* > > *605.11.1.2.5 Allowance for smoke ventilation* > > *operations. Panels and modules installed on Group* > > *R-3 buildings shall be located not less than 3 feet* > > *(914 mm) from the ridge** in order to allow for fire* > > *department smoke ventilation operations.* > > *Exception: Panels and modules shall be permitted* > > *to be located up to the roof ridge where an* > > *alternative ventilation method approved by the* > > *fire chief has been provided or where the fire* > > *chief has determined vertical ventilation techniques* > > *will not be employed.* > > *605.11.1.2.6 Locations of DC conductors. Conduit,* > > *wiring systems, and raceways for photovoltaic circuits* > > *shall be located as close as possible to the* > > *ridge or hip or valley and from the hip or valley as* > > *directly as possible to an outside wall to reduce trip* > > *hazards and maximize ventilation opportunities.* > > *Conduit runs between sub arrays and to DC combiner* > > *boxes shall be installed in a manner that minimizes* > > *the total amount of conduit on the roof by* > > *taking the shortest path from the array to the DC* > > *combiner box. The DC combiner boxes shall be* > > *located such that conduit runs are minimized in the* > > *pathways between arrays. DC wiring shall be* > > *installed in metallic conduit or raceways when* > > *located within enclosed spaces in a building. Conduit* > > *shall run along the bottom of load bearing* > > *members.* > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Darryl Thayer > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 03, 2018 8:51 PM > *To:* newrewrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please > > > > It is in the building code. It is for commercial flat roofs not for > residential > > > > On Tue, Apr 3, 2018, 2:52 PM wrote: > > Hey folks: > > > > What section of the Code relates to the 3' clearance for a solar array? > …as in, the roof area around the array. I’ve been scrutinizing the NEC > til my eyes are crossed….. > > > > THANKS! > > > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Apr 4 11:26:21 2018 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 09:26:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please In-Reply-To: <81642fa5f2282c885dd44ca3accd0970.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> <81642fa5f2282c885dd44ca3accd0970.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: Section 1204.4 of the 2018 IFC exempts free-standing, ground-mounted arrays from setback requirements, but does require a clear, brush-free area of 10 feet for ground-mounted arrays. Of course this all depends on what codes your jurisdiction enforces - no California, the rest of the country doesn't always do it exactly the way you do :) Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 520.204.6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 9:15 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > It always depends on who you are working with ! Because of you folks > putting solar panels on roofs, I have had a few fire Captains ask about > clearances on ground mounted trackers:( > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > Darryl: > > > > > > > > If you are talking about California, I must respectfully disagree. If > you > > are not talking about California, I am ignorant. > > > > > > > > California Fire Code, 2016 version, states the following for group R-3 > > buildings (which I am fairly certain includes single family homes). This > > includes provisions for pitched roofs. Upon first reading, I do not see > > any improvements over the previous version (2012) except that it appears > > clearance from valleys has reduced from 36†to 18†. > > > > > > > > These regulations are implemented by local fire Marshalls in California > > (sometimes the same person as the Chief, sometimes not). This gives the > > Marshalls complete discretion. I have had good luck negotiating with > > Marshalls and finding good compromises. > > > > > > > > Excerpt from 2016 California fire code. > > > > > > > > *605.11.1.1 Roof access points. Roof access points* > > > > *shall be located in areas that do not require the placement* > > > > *of ground ladders over openings such as windows* > > > > *or doors, and located at strong points of building construction* > > > > *in locations where the access point does not* > > > > *conflict with overhead obstructions such as tree limbs,* > > > > *wires or signs.* > > > > > > > > *605.11.1.2 Solar photovoltaic systems for Group R-3* > > > > *buildings. Solar photovoltaic systems for Group R-3* > > > > *buildings shall comply with Sections 605.11.1.2.1* > > > > *through 605.11.1.2.5.* > > > > *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* > > > > *structures designed and constructed in accordance* > > > > *with the California Residential Code.* > > > > *605.11.1.2.1 Size of solar photovoltaic array. Each* > > > > *photovoltaic array shall be limited to 150 feet (45* > > > > *720 mm) by 150 feet (45 720 mm). Multiple arrays* > > > > *shall be separated by a 3-foot-wide (914 mm) clear* > > > > *access pathway.* > > > > *605.11.1.2.2 Hip roof layouts. Panels and modules* > > > > *installed on Group R-3 buildings with hip roof layouts* > > > > *shall be located in a manner that provides a 3-* > > > > *foot-wide (914 mm) clear access pathway from the* > > > > *eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels* > > > > *and modules are located. The access pathway shall* > > > > *be at a location on the building capable of supporting* > > > > *the fire fighters accessing the roof.* > > > > *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* > > > > *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* > > > > *horizontal (2:12) or less.* > > > > *605.11.1.2.3 Single-ridge roofs. Panels and modules* > > > > *installed on Group R-3 buildings with a single* > > > > *ridge shall be located in a manner that provides two,* > > > > *3-foot-wide (914 mm) access pathways from the* > > > > *eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels* > > > > *and modules are located.* > > > > *Exception: This requirement shall not apply to* > > > > *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* > > > > *horizontal (2:12) or less.* > > > > *605.11.1.2.4 Roofs with hips and valleys. Panels* > > > > *and modules installed on Group R-3 buildings with* > > > > *roof hips and valleys shall not be located closer than* > > > > *18 inches (457 mm) to a hip or a valley where panels/* > > > > *modules are to be placed on both sides of a hip or* > > > > *valley. Where panels are to be located on only one* > > > > *side of a hip or valley that is of equal length, the* > > > > *panels shall be permitted to be placed directly adjacent* > > > > *to the hip or valley.* > > > > *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* > > > > *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* > > > > *horizontal (2:12) or less.* > > > > *605.11.1.2.5 Allowance for smoke ventilation* > > > > *operations. Panels and modules installed on Group* > > > > *R-3 buildings shall be located not less than 3 feet* > > > > *(914 mm) from the ridge** in order to allow for fire* > > > > *department smoke ventilation operations.* > > > > *Exception: Panels and modules shall be permitted* > > > > *to be located up to the roof ridge where an* > > > > *alternative ventilation method approved by the* > > > > *fire chief has been provided or where the fire* > > > > *chief has determined vertical ventilation techniques* > > > > *will not be employed.* > > > > *605.11.1.2.6 Locations of DC conductors. Conduit,* > > > > *wiring systems, and raceways for photovoltaic circuits* > > > > *shall be located as close as possible to the* > > > > *ridge or hip or valley and from the hip or valley as* > > > > *directly as possible to an outside wall to reduce trip* > > > > *hazards and maximize ventilation opportunities.* > > > > *Conduit runs between sub arrays and to DC combiner* > > > > *boxes shall be installed in a manner that minimizes* > > > > *the total amount of conduit on the roof by* > > > > *taking the shortest path from the array to the DC* > > > > *combiner box. The DC combiner boxes shall be* > > > > *located such that conduit runs are minimized in the* > > > > *pathways between arrays. DC wiring shall be* > > > > *installed in metallic conduit or raceways when* > > > > *located within enclosed spaces in a building. Conduit* > > > > *shall run along the bottom of load bearing* > > > > *members.* > > > > > > > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > > Lic 773985 > > millersolar.com > > 805-438-5600 > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On > > Behalf Of *Darryl Thayer > > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 03, 2018 8:51 PM > > *To:* newrewrenches > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please > > > > > > > > It is in the building code. It is for commercial flat roofs not for > > residential > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 3, 2018, 2:52 PM wrote: > > > > Hey folks: > > > > > > > > What section of the Code relates to the 3' clearance for a solar array? > > …as in, the roof area around the array. I’ve been scrutinizing the > > NEC til > > my eyes are crossed….. > > > > > > > > THANKS! > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris Daum > > > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > > > 406-777-4309 > > > > 406-777-4309 fax > > > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Apr 4 11:28:09 2018 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 09:28:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please In-Reply-To: References: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Yes! And the IFC and IRC both allow local fire officials to basically require, or allow, whatever they want (Exception 2 to IFC 1204.2 and IRC R324.6). Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 520.204.6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 9:22 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > Thank you good comments, facts, i am in Mn my last 3 installs the fire > marshal said he did not care, he would use the north side of the roof or > not at all. > > On Wed, Apr 4, 2018, 9:53 AM William Miller > wrote: > >> Darryl: >> >> >> >> If you are talking about California, I must respectfully disagree. If >> you are not talking about California, I am ignorant. >> >> >> >> California Fire Code, 2016 version, states the following for group R-3 >> buildings (which I am fairly certain includes single family homes). This >> includes provisions for pitched roofs. Upon first reading, I do not see >> any improvements over the previous version (2012) except that it appears >> clearance from valleys has reduced from 36” to 18”. >> >> >> >> These regulations are implemented by local fire Marshalls in California >> (sometimes the same person as the Chief, sometimes not). This gives the >> Marshalls complete discretion. I have had good luck negotiating with >> Marshalls and finding good compromises. >> >> >> >> Excerpt from 2016 California fire code. >> >> >> >> *605.11.1.1 Roof access points. Roof access points* >> >> *shall be located in areas that do not require the placement* >> >> *of ground ladders over openings such as windows* >> >> *or doors, and located at strong points of building construction* >> >> *in locations where the access point does not* >> >> *conflict with overhead obstructions such as tree limbs,* >> >> *wires or signs.* >> >> >> >> *605.11.1.2 Solar photovoltaic systems for Group R-3* >> >> *buildings. Solar photovoltaic systems for Group R-3* >> >> *buildings shall comply with Sections 605.11.1.2.1* >> >> *through 605.11.1.2.5.* >> >> *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* >> >> *structures designed and constructed in accordance* >> >> *with the California Residential Code.* >> >> *605.11.1.2.1 Size of solar photovoltaic array. Each* >> >> *photovoltaic array shall be limited to 150 feet (45* >> >> *720 mm) by 150 feet (45 720 mm). Multiple arrays* >> >> *shall be separated by a 3-foot-wide (914 mm) clear* >> >> *access pathway.* >> >> *605.11.1.2.2 Hip roof layouts. Panels and modules* >> >> *installed on Group R-3 buildings with hip roof layouts* >> >> *shall be located in a manner that provides a 3-* >> >> *foot-wide (914 mm) clear access pathway from the* >> >> *eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels* >> >> *and modules are located. The access pathway shall* >> >> *be at a location on the building capable of supporting* >> >> *the fire fighters accessing the roof.* >> >> *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* >> >> *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* >> >> *horizontal (2:12) or less.* >> >> *605.11.1.2.3 Single-ridge roofs. Panels and modules* >> >> *installed on Group R-3 buildings with a single* >> >> *ridge shall be located in a manner that provides two,* >> >> *3-foot-wide (914 mm) access pathways from the* >> >> *eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels* >> >> *and modules are located.* >> >> *Exception: This requirement shall not apply to* >> >> *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* >> >> *horizontal (2:12) or less.* >> >> *605.11.1.2.4 Roofs with hips and valleys. Panels* >> >> *and modules installed on Group R-3 buildings with* >> >> *roof hips and valleys shall not be located closer than* >> >> *18 inches (457 mm) to a hip or a valley where panels/* >> >> *modules are to be placed on both sides of a hip or* >> >> *valley. Where panels are to be located on only one* >> >> *side of a hip or valley that is of equal length, the* >> >> *panels shall be permitted to be placed directly adjacent* >> >> *to the hip or valley.* >> >> *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* >> >> *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* >> >> *horizontal (2:12) or less.* >> >> *605.11.1.2.5 Allowance for smoke ventilation* >> >> *operations. Panels and modules installed on Group* >> >> *R-3 buildings shall be located not less than 3 feet* >> >> *(914 mm) from the ridge** in order to allow for fire* >> >> *department smoke ventilation operations.* >> >> *Exception: Panels and modules shall be permitted* >> >> *to be located up to the roof ridge where an* >> >> *alternative ventilation method approved by the* >> >> *fire chief has been provided or where the fire* >> >> *chief has determined vertical ventilation techniques* >> >> *will not be employed.* >> >> *605.11.1.2.6 Locations of DC conductors. Conduit,* >> >> *wiring systems, and raceways for photovoltaic circuits* >> >> *shall be located as close as possible to the* >> >> *ridge or hip or valley and from the hip or valley as* >> >> *directly as possible to an outside wall to reduce trip* >> >> *hazards and maximize ventilation opportunities.* >> >> *Conduit runs between sub arrays and to DC combiner* >> >> *boxes shall be installed in a manner that minimizes* >> >> *the total amount of conduit on the roof by* >> >> *taking the shortest path from the array to the DC* >> >> *combiner box. The DC combiner boxes shall be* >> >> *located such that conduit runs are minimized in the* >> >> *pathways between arrays. DC wiring shall be* >> >> *installed in metallic conduit or raceways when* >> >> *located within enclosed spaces in a building. Conduit* >> >> *shall run along the bottom of load bearing* >> >> *members.* >> >> >> >> >> >> [image: Gradient Cap_mini] >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Darryl Thayer >> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 03, 2018 8:51 PM >> *To:* newrewrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please >> >> >> >> It is in the building code. It is for commercial flat roofs not for >> residential >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018, 2:52 PM wrote: >> >> Hey folks: >> >> >> >> What section of the Code relates to the 3' clearance for a solar array? >> …as in, the roof area around the array. I’ve been scrutinizing the NEC >> til my eyes are crossed….. >> >> >> >> THANKS! >> >> >> >> >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> 406-777-4309 >> >> 406-777-4309 fax >> >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Apr 4 11:47:24 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 08:47:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please In-Reply-To: References: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Hi All in California - New intervening codes in California are on their way effective July 1, 2018: - https://cdn-web.iccsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/errata_ central/2016CA-IRC-070118.pdf - https://cdn-web.iccsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/errata_ central/2016CA-IFC-070118.pdf It's a long story, but the IRC applies to R3 (single family and duplex) buildings and allows for 18" ridge clearance. The IFC is intended to follow the same 18" clearance but mistakenly the 36" smoke ventilation language was not removed. Apparently this was an administrative error that is supposed to be corrected. August *August Goers* www.luminalt.com On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:36 PM, William Miller wrote: > Darryl: > > > > If you are talking about California, I must respectfully disagree. If you > are not talking about California, I am ignorant. > > > > California Fire Code, 2016 version, states the following for group R-3 > buildings (which I am fairly certain includes single family homes). This > includes provisions for pitched roofs. Upon first reading, I do not see > any improvements over the previous version (2012) except that it appears > clearance from valleys has reduced from 36” to 18”. > > > > These regulations are implemented by local fire Marshalls in California > (sometimes the same person as the Chief, sometimes not). This gives the > Marshalls complete discretion. I have had good luck negotiating with > Marshalls and finding good compromises. > > > > Excerpt from 2016 California fire code. > > > > *605.11.1.1 Roof access points. Roof access points* > > *shall be located in areas that do not require the placement* > > *of ground ladders over openings such as windows* > > *or doors, and located at strong points of building construction* > > *in locations where the access point does not* > > *conflict with overhead obstructions such as tree limbs,* > > *wires or signs.* > > > > *605.11.1.2 Solar photovoltaic systems for Group R-3* > > *buildings. Solar photovoltaic systems for Group R-3* > > *buildings shall comply with Sections 605.11.1.2.1* > > *through 605.11.1.2.5.* > > *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* > > *structures designed and constructed in accordance* > > *with the California Residential Code.* > > *605.11.1.2.1 Size of solar photovoltaic array. Each* > > *photovoltaic array shall be limited to 150 feet (45* > > *720 mm) by 150 feet (45 720 mm). Multiple arrays* > > *shall be separated by a 3-foot-wide (914 mm) clear* > > *access pathway.* > > *605.11.1.2.2 Hip roof layouts. Panels and modules* > > *installed on Group R-3 buildings with hip roof layouts* > > *shall be located in a manner that provides a 3-* > > *foot-wide (914 mm) clear access pathway from the* > > *eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels* > > *and modules are located. The access pathway shall* > > *be at a location on the building capable of supporting* > > *the fire fighters accessing the roof.* > > *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* > > *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* > > *horizontal (2:12) or less.* > > *605.11.1.2.3 Single-ridge roofs. Panels and modules* > > *installed on Group R-3 buildings with a single* > > *ridge shall be located in a manner that provides two,* > > *3-foot-wide (914 mm) access pathways from the* > > *eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels* > > *and modules are located.* > > *Exception: This requirement shall not apply to* > > *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* > > *horizontal (2:12) or less.* > > *605.11.1.2.4 Roofs with hips and valleys. Panels* > > *and modules installed on Group R-3 buildings with* > > *roof hips and valleys shall not be located closer than* > > *18 inches (457 mm) to a hip or a valley where panels/* > > *modules are to be placed on both sides of a hip or* > > *valley. Where panels are to be located on only one* > > *side of a hip or valley that is of equal length, the* > > *panels shall be permitted to be placed directly adjacent* > > *to the hip or valley.* > > *Exception: These requirements shall not apply to* > > *roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units* > > *horizontal (2:12) or less.* > > *605.11.1.2.5 Allowance for smoke ventilation* > > *operations. Panels and modules installed on Group* > > *R-3 buildings shall be located not less than 3 feet* > > *(914 mm) from the ridge** in order to allow for fire* > > *department smoke ventilation operations.* > > *Exception: Panels and modules shall be permitted* > > *to be located up to the roof ridge where an* > > *alternative ventilation method approved by the* > > *fire chief has been provided or where the fire* > > *chief has determined vertical ventilation techniques* > > *will not be employed.* > > *605.11.1.2.6 Locations of DC conductors. Conduit,* > > *wiring systems, and raceways for photovoltaic circuits* > > *shall be located as close as possible to the* > > *ridge or hip or valley and from the hip or valley as* > > *directly as possible to an outside wall to reduce trip* > > *hazards and maximize ventilation opportunities.* > > *Conduit runs between sub arrays and to DC combiner* > > *boxes shall be installed in a manner that minimizes* > > *the total amount of conduit on the roof by* > > *taking the shortest path from the array to the DC* > > *combiner box. The DC combiner boxes shall be* > > *located such that conduit runs are minimized in the* > > *pathways between arrays. DC wiring shall be* > > *installed in metallic conduit or raceways when* > > *located within enclosed spaces in a building. Conduit* > > *shall run along the bottom of load bearing* > > *members.* > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Darryl Thayer > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 03, 2018 8:51 PM > *To:* newrewrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please > > > > It is in the building code. It is for commercial flat roofs not for > residential > > > > On Tue, Apr 3, 2018, 2:52 PM wrote: > > Hey folks: > > > > What section of the Code relates to the 3' clearance for a solar array? > …as in, the roof area around the array. I’ve been scrutinizing the NEC > til my eyes are crossed….. > > > > THANKS! > > > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Apr 4 12:31:47 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 12:31:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please In-Reply-To: References: <028a01d3cb7e$85a72d40$90f587c0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <13e97f19-475b-516a-da80-dac4480ce126@entech-engineering.com> You may want to look at NY's exceptions to the IFC for access and ventilation for roof mounted arrays (residential).  As was said earlier, there is very little on ground mounted arrays except for the 10' brush clearance rule. On 4/4/2018 11:47 AM, August Goers wrote: > Hi All in California - > > New intervening codes in California are on their way effective July 1, > 2018: > > * https://cdn-web.iccsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/errata_central/2016CA-IRC-070118.pdf > > * https://cdn-web.iccsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/errata_central/2016CA-IFC-070118.pdf > > > It's a long story, but the IRC applies to R3 (single family and > duplex) buildings and allows for 18" ridge clearance. The IFC is > intended to follow the same 18" clearance but mistakenly the 36" smoke > ventilation language was not removed. Apparently this was an > administrative error that is supposed to be corrected. > > > August > > > *August Goers* > > www.luminalt.com > > > On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:36 PM, William Miller > > wrote: > > Darryl: > > If you are talking about California, I must respectfully > disagree.  If you are not talking about California, I am ignorant. > > California Fire Code, 2016 version, states the following for group > R-3 buildings (which I am fairly certain includes single family > homes).  This includes provisions for pitched roofs.  Upon first > reading, I do not see any improvements over the previous version > (2012) except that it appears clearance from valleys has reduced > from 36” to 18”. > > These regulations are implemented by local fire Marshalls in > California (sometimes the same person as the Chief, sometimes > not).  This gives the Marshalls complete discretion.  I have had > good luck negotiating with Marshalls and finding good compromises. > > Excerpt from 2016 California fire code. > > /605.11.1.1 Roof access points. Roof access points/ > > /shall be located in areas that do not require the placement/ > > /of ground ladders over openings such as windows/ > > /or doors, and located at strong points of building construction/ > > /in locations where the access point does not/ > > /conflict with overhead obstructions such as tree limbs,/ > > /wires or signs./ > > // > > /605.11.1.2 Solar photovoltaic systems for Group R-3/ > > /buildings. Solar photovoltaic systems for Group R-3/ > > /buildings shall comply with Sections 605.11.1.2.1/ > > /through 605.11.1.2.5./ > > /Exception: These requirements shall not apply to/ > > /structures designed and constructed in accordance/ > > /with the California Residential Code./ > > /605.11.1.2.1 Size of solar photovoltaic array. Each/ > > /photovoltaic array shall be limited to 150 feet (45/ > > /720 mm) by 150 feet (45 720 mm). Multiple arrays/ > > /shall be separated by a 3-foot-wide (914 mm) clear/ > > /access pathway./ > > /605.11.1.2.2 Hip roof layouts. Panels and modules/ > > /installed on Group R-3 buildings with hip roof layouts/ > > /shall be located in a manner that provides a 3-/ > > /foot-wide (914 mm) clear access pathway from the/ > > /eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels/ > > /and modules are located. The access pathway shall/ > > /be at a location on the building capable of supporting/ > > /the fire fighters accessing the roof./ > > /Exception: These requirements shall not apply to/ > > /roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units/ > > /horizontal (2:12) or less./ > > /605.11.1.2.3 Single-ridge roofs. Panels and modules/ > > /installed on Group R-3 buildings with a single/ > > /ridge shall be located in a manner that provides two,/ > > /3-foot-wide (914 mm) access pathways from the/ > > /eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels/ > > /and modules are located./ > > /Exception: This requirement shall not apply to/ > > /roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units/ > > /horizontal (2:12) or less./ > > /605.11.1.2.4 Roofs with hips and valleys. Panels/ > > /and modules installed on Group R-3 buildings with/ > > /roof hips and valleys shall not be located closer than/ > > /18 inches (457 mm) to a hip or a valley where panels// > > /modules are to be placed on both sides of a hip or/ > > /valley. Where panels are to be located on only one/ > > /side of a hip or valley that is of equal length, the/ > > /panels shall be permitted to be placed directly adjacent/ > > /to the hip or valley./ > > /Exception: These requirements shall not apply to/ > > /roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units/ > > /horizontal (2:12) or less./ > > /605.11.1.2.5 Allowance for smoke ventilation/ > > /operations. Panels and modules installed on Group/ > > /R-3 buildings shall be located not less than 3 feet/ > > /(914 mm) from the ridge//in order to allow for fire/ > > /department smoke ventilation operations./ > > /Exception: Panels and modules shall be permitted/ > > /to be located up to the roof ridge where an/ > > /alternative ventilation method approved by the/ > > /fire chief has been provided or where the fire/ > > /chief has determined vertical ventilation techniques/ > > /will not be employed./ > > /605.11.1.2.6 Locations of DC conductors. Conduit,/ > > /wiring systems, and raceways for photovoltaic circuits/ > > /shall be located as close as possible to the/ > > /ridge or hip or valley and from the hip or valley as/ > > /directly as possible to an outside wall to reduce trip/ > > /hazards and maximize ventilation opportunities./ > > /Conduit runs between sub arrays and to DC combiner/ > > /boxes shall be installed in a manner that minimizes/ > > /the total amount of conduit on the roof by/ > > /taking the shortest path from the array to the DC/ > > /combiner box. The DC combiner boxes shall be/ > > /located such that conduit runs are minimized in the/ > > /pathways between arrays. DC wiring shall be/ > > /installed in metallic conduit or raceways when/ > > /located within enclosed spaces in a building. Conduit/ > > /shall run along the bottom of load bearing/ > > /members./ > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Darryl Thayer > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 03, 2018 8:51 PM > *To:* newrewrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please > > It is in the building code.  It is for commercial flat roofs not > for residential > > On Tue, Apr 3, 2018, 2:52 PM > wrote: > > Hey folks: > > What section of the Code relates to the 3' clearance for a > solar array?  …as in, the roof area around the array.   I’ve > been scrutinizing the NEC til my eyes are crossed….. > > THANKS! > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed Apr 4 15:47:57 2018 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 14:47:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Pond Aerators In-Reply-To: References: <20180403153332.2D237107D32@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <001401d3cb66$734cebc0$59e6c340$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Just an FYI, the US Solar Mounts product is PV direct, no batteries. On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 3:32 PM, James Jefferson Jarvis wrote: > US Solar Mounts in Wisconsin makes nice packaged systems. > > https://www.ussolarmounts.us/resources/benefits-of-aeration/ > > -James Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 11:11 AM, Dana wrote: > >> An internet search of “solar pond aeration” turned up a variety of >> options. >> >> I was trying to find the company I had used for new installs in CO and >> repair of existing systems but did not locate that company. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---------------- >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> * >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> >> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Drake >> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 03, 2018 9:33 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Solar Pond Aerators >> >> >> >> At one time, simple solar pond aerators were available. A small PV module >> and a box with a 12 V deep cycle battery, and a pump were mounted on a >> post. A hose with a weight on it went into the pond. This system seemed to >> work well for small ponds. >> >> Does anything like this still exist? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> >> >> >> >> >> *Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar >> PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Fri Apr 6 15:55:43 2018 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nik Ponzio, Building Energy) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 15:55:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunEdison Monitoring Echosolar.com Message-ID: Wrenchers, We sold a few SunEdison PV systems with EchoSolar monitoring platforms. The monitoring worked for a while after the SunEdison collapse, but it's not working anymore. (The domain is for sale.) Does anyone have information about the current status of this company or know of a 3rd party (4th party?) platform that can make use of the existing network equipment? Thanks for any help! -- Nik Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 802-859-3384 ext.115 http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" Heat Pumps from Building Energy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Apr 8 20:41:21 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 14:41:21 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SunEdison Monitoring Echosolar.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nik You may want to contact ABB they have collected a few legacy monitoring systems and may be able to help you out, it might require a new data logger to connect but that's still cheaper than a new system, Deck Monitoring may also be able to help. Jerry On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 9:55 AM, Nik Ponzio, Building Energy < nponzio at buildingenergyus.com> wrote: > Wrenchers, > > We sold a few SunEdison PV systems with EchoSolar monitoring platforms. > The monitoring worked for a while after the SunEdison collapse, but it's > not working anymore. (The domain is for sale.) > > Does anyone have information about the current status of this company or > know of a 3rd party (4th party?) platform that can make use of the existing > network equipment? > > Thanks for any help! > > -- > Nik Ponzio > Building Energy > 1570 South Brownell Road > Williston, VT 05495 > 802-859-3384 ext.115 > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > > > "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" > Heat Pumps from Building Energy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 14:50:38 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 11:50:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator search Message-ID: <609B969A-FE1A-46FC-A023-CB7250C4E0FE@gmail.com> HI All, I’ve got a new project wanting a 22-25kw single phase 120/240vac water cooled propane sound attenuated generator for an off grid situation. I’m not going to be With AGS activation. I”ve been looking at the Kohler 24 RCL ( meets all the above criteria) but I’m checking to see if I can get it to work with 2 wire AGS. Onan also has one as well. Are there any other make/models that people would recommend or would caution me against? Thanks jay peltz power From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 15:11:22 2018 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 12:11:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator search In-Reply-To: <609B969A-FE1A-46FC-A023-CB7250C4E0FE@gmail.com> References: <609B969A-FE1A-46FC-A023-CB7250C4E0FE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <96515A0A-2211-4343-9232-7CBC8649AFDC@gmail.com> Jay, I’ve had really good luck with the Cummins RS22. In fact it’s the only propane generator I will use unless it’s for a small system, then I specify Honda ’s with a propane conversion from GenConnect. Half a dozen RS22’s with enclosures and maybe a dozen without, placed in buildings. No problems. Alex Cruz with Cummins Pacific is who you would want to speak with. Michael > On Apr 9, 2018, at 11:50 AM, jay wrote: > > HI All, > > I’ve got a new project wanting a 22-25kw single phase 120/240vac water cooled propane sound attenuated generator for an off grid situation. I’m not going to be > With AGS activation. > > I”ve been looking at the Kohler 24 RCL ( meets all the above criteria) but I’m checking to see if I can get it to work with 2 wire AGS. > > Onan also has one as well. > > Are there any other make/models that people would recommend or would caution me against? > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Mon Apr 9 16:14:56 2018 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 20:14:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator search In-Reply-To: <609B969A-FE1A-46FC-A023-CB7250C4E0FE@gmail.com> References: <609B969A-FE1A-46FC-A023-CB7250C4E0FE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Check to see if it has a 120 vac requirement to float the battery. The 20 kw one I have has a big electrical drain David On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 11:50 AM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’ve got a new project wanting a 22-25kw single phase 120/240vac water > cooled propane sound attenuated generator for an off grid situation. I’m > not going to be > With AGS activation. > > I”ve been looking at the Kohler 24 RCL ( meets all the above criteria) but > I’m checking to see if I can get it to work with 2 wire AGS. > > Onan also has one as well. > > Are there any other make/models that people would recommend or would > caution me against? > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 16:29:30 2018 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 13:29:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator search In-Reply-To: References: <609B969A-FE1A-46FC-A023-CB7250C4E0FE@gmail.com> Message-ID: They do have a battery charger that requires a 120V circuit, and it does draw more than one would like. I run a circuit over and install a tiny battery tender rather than use the factory charger. With a good starter battery and a weekly exercise cycle of thirty minutes, I have found that my indoor installs (temps above 40F) don’t need an auxiliary battery charger, whereas outdoor located genesets that see colder temperatures may not start by the time the excersise cycle rolls around. > On Apr 9, 2018, at 1:14 PM, David Katz wrote: > > Check to see if it has a 120 vac requirement to float the battery. The 20 kw one I have has a big electrical drain > David > > On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 11:50 AM jay > wrote: > HI All, > > I’ve got a new project wanting a 22-25kw single phase 120/240vac water cooled propane sound attenuated generator for an off grid situation. I’m not going to be > With AGS activation. > > I”ve been looking at the Kohler 24 RCL ( meets all the above criteria) but I’m checking to see if I can get it to work with 2 wire AGS. > > Onan also has one as well. > > Are there any other make/models that people would recommend or would caution me against? > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Mon Apr 9 16:32:36 2018 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 20:32:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator search In-Reply-To: References: <609B969A-FE1A-46FC-A023-CB7250C4E0FE@gmail.com>, Message-ID: If it's going in a cold climate, the Cummins RS generators absolutely require a coolant heater which is a significant AC load. Otherwise, they don't require any AC power but they do need their battery to remain charged. For this reason, they do come with an integrated charger, but if you have a more efficient charger then you can leave the 120V AC input on the gen set disconnected and just hook up the better charger. There's plenty of space in the generator enclosure for an aftermarket charger. Or if you have a good spare 12V solar panel laying around with a charge controller, then you shouldn't need to use a 120V charger at all 😉 Thanks, Kienan ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of David Katz Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 2:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] generator search Check to see if it has a 120 vac requirement to float the battery. The 20 kw one I have has a big electrical drain David On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 11:50 AM jay > wrote: HI All, I’ve got a new project wanting a 22-25kw single phase 120/240vac water cooled propane sound attenuated generator for an off grid situation. I’m not going to be With AGS activation. I”ve been looking at the Kohler 24 RCL ( meets all the above criteria) but I’m checking to see if I can get it to work with 2 wire AGS. Onan also has one as well. Are there any other make/models that people would recommend or would caution me against? Thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 16:46:28 2018 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 13:46:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator search In-Reply-To: References: <609B969A-FE1A-46FC-A023-CB7250C4E0FE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, the Cummins technician that commissions our generators insists that locations with consistent low’s below 15F require the coolant heater. All but two of my installs(outdoor) have omitted connecting the heater, and have seen some brief sub-0 temperatures but generally average mid-30s. One of the two that does have the heater connected, is located at a high elevation telecom site, and when I serviced the system after not being there for a couple of winters, it was found that someone had shut off both the battery charger circuit and the coolant heater circuit and the generator didn’t seem worse for the wear, and no coolant temp codes were thrown. > On Apr 9, 2018, at 1:14 PM, David Katz wrote: > > Check to see if it has a 120 vac requirement to float the battery. The 20 kw one I have has a big electrical drain > David > > On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 11:50 AM jay > wrote: > HI All, > > I’ve got a new project wanting a 22-25kw single phase 120/240vac water cooled propane sound attenuated generator for an off grid situation. I’m not going to be > With AGS activation. > > I”ve been looking at the Kohler 24 RCL ( meets all the above criteria) but I’m checking to see if I can get it to work with 2 wire AGS. > > Onan also has one as well. > > Are there any other make/models that people would recommend or would caution me against? > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 17:20:01 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 14:20:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator search In-Reply-To: References: <609B969A-FE1A-46FC-A023-CB7250C4E0FE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all. This unit will be in a warm climate so no problems there. Are you all saying the build in AC/shore power charger is extremely inefficient? Jay > On Apr 9, 2018, at 1:46 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote: > > Yes, the Cummins technician that commissions our generators insists that locations with consistent low’s below 15F require the coolant heater. All but two of my installs(outdoor) have omitted connecting the heater, and have seen some brief sub-0 temperatures but generally average mid-30s. One of the two that does have the heater connected, is located at a high elevation telecom site, and when I serviced the system after not being there for a couple of winters, it was found that someone had shut off both the battery charger circuit and the coolant heater circuit and the generator didn’t seem worse for the wear, and no coolant temp codes were thrown. > >> On Apr 9, 2018, at 1:14 PM, David Katz wrote: >> >> Check to see if it has a 120 vac requirement to float the battery. The 20 kw one I have has a big electrical drain >> David >> >>> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 11:50 AM jay wrote: >>> HI All, >>> >>> I’ve got a new project wanting a 22-25kw single phase 120/240vac water cooled propane sound attenuated generator for an off grid situation. I’m not going to be >>> With AGS activation. >>> >>> I”ve been looking at the Kohler 24 RCL ( meets all the above criteria) but I’m checking to see if I can get it to work with 2 wire AGS. >>> >>> Onan also has one as well. >>> >>> Are there any other make/models that people would recommend or would caution me against? >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> -- >> David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Mon Apr 9 18:22:57 2018 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 22:22:57 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla in home Depot stores Message-ID: Can we have this conversation in this group? I would really like to hear what everyone has to say. https://inhabitat.com/tesla-is-selling-its-solar-products-in-home-depot-stores-starting-in-july/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Apr 9 18:25:12 2018 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 15:25:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator search In-Reply-To: References: <609B969A-FE1A-46FC-A023-CB7250C4E0FE@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don’t recall what the exact load was, but it was enough that I decided I could do better. I also implement Kienan’s strategy and use PV for battery tending. > On Apr 9, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all. > > This unit will be in a warm climate so no problems there. > > Are you all saying the build in AC/shore power charger is extremely inefficient? > > Jay > > > > On Apr 9, 2018, at 1:46 PM, Michael Morningstar > wrote: > >> Yes, the Cummins technician that commissions our generators insists that locations with consistent low’s below 15F require the coolant heater. All but two of my installs(outdoor) have omitted connecting the heater, and have seen some brief sub-0 temperatures but generally average mid-30s. One of the two that does have the heater connected, is located at a high elevation telecom site, and when I serviced the system after not being there for a couple of winters, it was found that someone had shut off both the battery charger circuit and the coolant heater circuit and the generator didn’t seem worse for the wear, and no coolant temp codes were thrown. >> >>> On Apr 9, 2018, at 1:14 PM, David Katz > wrote: >>> >>> Check to see if it has a 120 vac requirement to float the battery. The 20 kw one I have has a big electrical drain >>> David >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 11:50 AM jay > wrote: >>> HI All, >>> >>> I’ve got a new project wanting a 22-25kw single phase 120/240vac water cooled propane sound attenuated generator for an off grid situation. I’m not going to be >>> With AGS activation. >>> >>> I”ve been looking at the Kohler 24 RCL ( meets all the above criteria) but I’m checking to see if I can get it to work with 2 wire AGS. >>> >>> Onan also has one as well. >>> >>> Are there any other make/models that people would recommend or would caution me against? >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >>> David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Mon Apr 9 18:37:25 2018 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 22:37:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla in home Depot stores In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1301911006.984819.1523313445372@mail.yahoo.com> It stands to reason.  Solar City has had  kiosks and salespeople in the Oregon stores for years and years. Sincerely,  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com On Monday, April 9, 2018, 3:23:15 PM PDT, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Can we have this conversation in this group?  I would really like to hear what everyone has to say. https://inhabitat.com/tesla-is-selling-its-solar-products-in-home-depot-stores-starting-in-july/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Apr 9 21:14:39 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 19:14:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator search In-Reply-To: References: <609B969A-FE1A-46FC-A023-CB7250C4E0FE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <75e8ae56-d326-6d70-cb1c-3445298f1e08@solarray.com>   We've had gen sets at 11,000 ft and way below zero start on propane for decades without using the block or water heaters. Ridiculous electric heating loads on the other hand are a very bad idea off grid.  Just make sure the propane supply lines are large enough so the pressure regulator doesn't freeze up. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 4/9/18 2:46 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote: > Yes, the Cummins technician that commissions our generators insists > that locations with consistent low’s below 15F require the coolant > heater. All but two of my installs(outdoor) have omitted connecting > the heater, and have seen some brief sub-0 temperatures but generally > average mid-30s. One of the two that does have the heater connected, > is located at a high elevation telecom site, and when I serviced the > system after not being there for a couple of winters, it was found > that someone had shut off both the battery charger circuit and the > coolant heater circuit and the generator didn’t seem worse for the > wear, and no coolant temp codes were thrown. > >> On Apr 9, 2018, at 1:14 PM, David Katz > > wrote: >> >> Check to see if it has a 120 vac requirement to float the battery. >> The 20 kw one I have has a big electrical drain >> David >> >> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 11:50 AM jay > > wrote: >> >> HI All, >> >> I’ve got a new project wanting a 22-25kw single phase 120/240vac >> water cooled propane sound attenuated generator for an off grid >> situation.  I’m not going to be >> With AGS activation. >> >> I”ve been looking at the Kohler 24 RCL ( meets all the above >> criteria) but I’m checking to see if I can get it to work with 2 >> wire AGS. >> >> Onan also has one as well. >> >> Are there any other make/models that people would recommend or >> would caution me against? >> >> Thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Mon Apr 9 23:18:32 2018 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 03:18:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator search In-Reply-To: <75e8ae56-d326-6d70-cb1c-3445298f1e08@solarray.com> References: <609B969A-FE1A-46FC-A023-CB7250C4E0FE@gmail.com> , <75e8ae56-d326-6d70-cb1c-3445298f1e08@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, That's not going to work for the Cummins RS water-cooled generators without some hacking. The water cooled models do use an antifreeze mixture so they can withstand temperatures down to -50°F without a heater, but they have a circuit that prevents the generator from even trying to start if the coolant is below a certain temperature. I don't remember what that temperature is but I know on mine its above 20° F. The air-cooled generators only use a small heater in the engine oil reservoir and there's an optional one under the battery. I know that the air-cooled models can start in colder temperatures without a heater than the water-cooled models. It is strongly recommended by Cummins to use the oil heater in the air-cooled models if the generator will get below 0°F, but the local techs recommend it for 15°F and below because the generators start easier if the oil is above 15°F. I've read that it also affects the overall longevity of the engine. I live off-grid up in the mountains, and most of my customers are off-grid up in the mountains. I agree that this is far from ideal. If the generator could be installed in an underground bunker where it doesn't freeze, that would be nice. I just have to write it off as the cost of having a backup power source ready and waiting when it matters the most... when it's crazy cold outside. Thanks, Kienan ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 7:14 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] generator search We've had gen sets at 11,000 ft and way below zero start on propane for decades without using the block or water heaters. Ridiculous electric heating loads on the other hand are a very bad idea off grid. Just make sure the propane supply lines are large enough so the pressure regulator doesn't freeze up. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 4/9/18 2:46 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote: Yes, the Cummins technician that commissions our generators insists that locations with consistent low’s below 15F require the coolant heater. All but two of my installs(outdoor) have omitted connecting the heater, and have seen some brief sub-0 temperatures but generally average mid-30s. One of the two that does have the heater connected, is located at a high elevation telecom site, and when I serviced the system after not being there for a couple of winters, it was found that someone had shut off both the battery charger circuit and the coolant heater circuit and the generator didn’t seem worse for the wear, and no coolant temp codes were thrown. On Apr 9, 2018, at 1:14 PM, David Katz > wrote: Check to see if it has a 120 vac requirement to float the battery. The 20 kw one I have has a big electrical drain David On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 11:50 AM jay > wrote: HI All, I’ve got a new project wanting a 22-25kw single phase 120/240vac water cooled propane sound attenuated generator for an off grid situation. I’m not going to be With AGS activation. I”ve been looking at the Kohler 24 RCL ( meets all the above criteria) but I’m checking to see if I can get it to work with 2 wire AGS. Onan also has one as well. Are there any other make/models that people would recommend or would caution me against? Thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Apr 10 13:47:39 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 11:47:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator search In-Reply-To: References: <609B969A-FE1A-46FC-A023-CB7250C4E0FE@gmail.com> <75e8ae56-d326-6d70-cb1c-3445298f1e08@solarray.com> Message-ID: <666678af-8d4f-7ada-6be1-a68336d686e3@solarray.com> My experiences were mostly with Kohler and Generac water cooled models.=C2= =A0=20 I had not heard about low temperature lockout.=C2=A0 I would probably disab= le=20 that or use a generator without. Cars have essentially the same type of=20 engine, and they do not need preheating except in extreme conditions.=20 How long does the heater take to bring the temp up?=C2=A0 I would consider = putting it on a prestart relay, so that it started preheating it only=20 when the system was getting close to needing the generator. Ray On 4/9/18 9:18 PM, Kienan Maxfield wrote: > Ray, > > That's not going to work for the Cummins RS water-cooled generators=20 > without some hacking. The water cooled models do use an antifreeze=20 > mixture so they can withstand temperatures down to -50=C2=B0F without a=20 > heater, but they have a circuit that prevents the generator from even=20 > trying to start if the coolant is below a certain temperature. I don't=20 > remember what that temperature is but I know on mine its above 20=C2=B0 F= .=20 > The air-cooled generators only use a small heater in the engine oil=20 > reservoir=C2=A0and there's an optional one under the battery. I know that= =20 > the air-cooled models can start in colder temperatures without a=20 > heater than the water-cooled models. It is strongly recommended by=20 > Cummins to use the oil heater in the air-cooled models if the=20 > generator will get below 0=C2=B0F, but the local techs recommend it for=20 > 15=C2=B0F and below because the generators start easier if the oil is abo= ve=20 > 15=C2=B0F. I've read that it also affects the overall longevity of the en= gine. > > I live off-grid up in the mountains, and most of my customers are=20 > off-grid up in the mountains. I agree that this is far from ideal. If=20 > the generator could be installed in an underground bunker where it=20 > doesn't freeze, that would be nice. I just have to write it off as the=20 > cost of having a backup power source ready and waiting=C2=A0when it matte= rs=20 > the most... when it's crazy cold outside. > > Thanks, > Kienan > ** > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on=20 > behalf of Ray > *Sent:* Monday, April 9, 2018 7:14 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] generator search > > =C2=A0 We've had gen sets at 11,000 ft and way below zero start on propan= e=20 > for decades without using the block or water heaters. Ridiculous=20 > electric heating loads on the other hand are a very bad idea off=20 > grid.=C2=A0 Just make sure the propane supply lines are large enough so t= he=20 > pressure regulator doesn't freeze up. > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > > On 4/9/18 2:46 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote: >> Yes, the Cummins technician that commissions our generators insists=20 >> that locations with consistent low=E2=80=99s below 15F require the coola= nt=20 >> heater. All but two of my installs(outdoor) have omitted connecting=20 >> the heater, and have seen some brief sub-0 temperatures but generally=20 >> average mid-30s. One of the two that does have the heater connected,=20 >> is located at a high elevation telecom site, and when I serviced the=20 >> system after not being there for a couple of winters, it was found=20 >> that someone had shut off both the battery charger circuit and the=20 >> coolant heater circuit and the generator didn=E2=80=99t seem worse for t= he=20 >> wear, and no coolant temp codes were thrown. >> >>> On Apr 9, 2018, at 1:14 PM, David Katz >> > wrote: >>> >>> Check to see if it has a 120 vac requirement to float the battery.=20 >>> The 20 kw one I have has a big electrical drain >>> David >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 11:50 AM jay >> > wrote: >>> >>> HI All, >>> >>> I=E2=80=99ve got a new project wanting a 22-25kw single phase 120/2= 40vac >>> water cooled propane sound attenuated generator for an off grid >>> situation. I=E2=80=99m not going to be >>> With AGS activation. >>> >>> I=E2=80=9Dve been looking at the Kohler 24 RCL ( meets all the above >>> criteria) but I=E2=80=99m checking to see if I can get it to work w= ith 2 >>> wire AGS. >>> >>> Onan also has one as well. >>> >>> Are there any other make/models that people would recommend or >>> would caution me against? >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maill= ist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> --=20 >>> David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:=20 >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.= html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm=20 >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org=20 >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm=20 >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.o= rg/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Apr 10 15:55:39 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 19:55:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator search In-Reply-To: References: <609B969A-FE1A-46FC-A023-CB7250C4E0FE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay we have used the Cummins machines and have been very happy,you will need a battery charger to maintain the SOC as the cpu has a 350 to 500 ma draw. Jerry On Mon, Apr 9, 2018, 10:15 AM David Katz wrote: > Check to see if it has a 120 vac requirement to float the battery. The 20 > kw one I have has a big electrical drain > David > > On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 11:50 AM jay wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I’ve got a new project wanting a 22-25kw single phase 120/240vac water >> cooled propane sound attenuated generator for an off grid situation. I’m >> not going to be >> With AGS activation. >> >> I”ve been looking at the Kohler 24 RCL ( meets all the above criteria) >> but I’m checking to see if I can get it to work with 2 wire AGS. >> >> Onan also has one as well. >> >> Are there any other make/models that people would recommend or would >> caution me against? >> >> Thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From corey at joule-energy.com Tue Apr 10 20:38:08 2018 From: corey at joule-energy.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 19:38:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Transformer Nomenclature/Protection/Grounding Message-ID: I'm seeking some guidance on how to treat transformers when included in a PV system. Specific system details: - (3x) SolarEdge 33.3 inverters combined in a 200A panel - 480/208 transformer to be installed between 200A panel and main distribution panel (service is 208 wye) My questions: - Is there any consensus on what circuit is considered the "primary" and which is the "secondary" in this type of scenario? - NEC 690.9(D) speaks of "considering first one side of the transformer, then the other side of the transformer, as the primary". Is this relevant? i.e. Is it possible for both sides of the transformer to be labeled as a primary? - I understand that 450.4(A) requires overcurrent protection on the "input conductors" (aka "primary conductors"?), correct? Must we provide overcurrent protection on the "other" side in the above scenario? - We were originally planning to land each inverter output on a 50A breaker inside a 200A main lug panel - must we also include a main breaker? - How do we size the grounding conductors on either side of the transformer? - Is the grounding conductor between MDP and transformer considered an EGC (250.122)? - Is the inverter-side of the transformer considered a separately derived system, in which case the grounding conductor would be considered a GEC (250.102(C)(1))? Thanks for any advice! -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 11 01:57:26 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 00:57:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Transformer Nomenclature/Protection/Grounding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi I have copied your text. My comments are in red - Is there any consensus on what circuit is considered the "primary" and which is the "secondary" in this type of scenario? Yes, the energy supply side is the primary, so the solaredge side is the Primary - NEC 690.9(D) speaks of "considering first one side of the transformer, then the other side of the transformer, as the primary". Is this relevant? Yes; you must protect from the grid side (the grid has all the real power) then the high-voltage side inverter side is protected by the inverter capacity. i.e. Is it possible for both sides of the transformer to be labeled as a primary? No, Your transformer was made with assumed primary and secondary, the energy flows from primary to secondary with a slight voltage drop, the turns ratio reflects this slight voltage change. Also, the low voltage side is wound next to the core and the higher voltage side is wound away from the core. - I understand that 450.4(A) requires overcurrent protection on the "input conductors" (aka "primary conductors"?), correct? Yes, the grid side must be protected in the event of a fault. And the solar side must be protected or have conductors sufficient to carry the current as limited by input (grid) side OCPD. The solar side by OCPD or a power limited supply, the inverters, but the input from the grid must be protected. Must we provide overcurrent protection on the "other" side in the above scenario? Yes, the solar side has to have protection from the grid. - We were originally planning to land each inverter output on a 50A breaker inside a 200A main lug panel - must we also include a main breaker? No, not from the inverters, but if you are you are using this as the OCPD on the solar side of the transformer yes. I think the calculation is 125% transformer OCPD power or the power of the transformer is the maximum current. For example, 112 kVA / 480 x 125% =292 amps is possible, the conductors need to be 292 amp or you protect with OCP. If you protect then the conductors need to be 100 kW x125% /480/1.73= 150 amp minimum. - How do we size the grounding conductors on either side of the transformer? For standard distances, the equipment ground for the transformer is from 250.122 based on the grid side OCPD. For 100 kW x 1.25 /208/1.73 = 350 amps, is #3 cu or equiv. For the solar side it is a separately derived system, The equipment ground from 250.122 is #6, However, if you use a corner grounded delta, (if SE will allow) you do not run a separate equipment ground. Being a separately derived system you need an GEC, which is sized from 250.66and it will go to a series of ground rods, with a #6 - Is the grounding conductor between MDP and transformer considered an EGC (250.122)? Yes, for the transformer on the grid side On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 7:38 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > I'm seeking some guidance on how to treat transformers when included in a > PV system. > > Specific system details: > - (3x) SolarEdge 33.3 inverters combined in a 200A panel > - 480/208 transformer to be installed between 200A panel and main > distribution panel (service is 208 wye) > > My questions: > > - Is there any consensus on what circuit is considered the "primary" and > which is the "secondary" in this type of scenario? > - NEC 690.9(D) speaks of "considering first one side of the > transformer, then the other side of the transformer, as the primary". Is > this relevant? i.e. Is it possible for both sides of the transformer to be > labeled as a primary? > > - I understand that 450.4(A) requires overcurrent protection on the "input > conductors" (aka "primary conductors"?), correct? Must we provide > overcurrent protection on the "other" side in the above scenario? > - We were originally planning to land each inverter output on a 50A > breaker inside a 200A main lug panel - must we also include a main breaker? > > - How do we size the grounding conductors on either side of the > transformer? > - Is the grounding conductor between MDP and transformer considered an > EGC (250.122)? > - Is the inverter-side of the transformer considered a separately > derived system, in which case the grounding conductor would be considered a > GEC (250.102(C)(1))? > > Thanks for any advice! > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Joule Energy > New Orleans, LA > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Apr 11 11:49:48 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 08:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fast recharge times for Discover, Schneider and Outback Message-ID: <5926aff1325d8c0762eaa193c15b8e55.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Discover battery is using Schneider Xanbus and soon Outback comms to improve recharge times fro their LFP batteries. I have been very happy with the results for a few clients. Just thought I would post the good results. Might save you guys some generator run times! http://discoverbattery.com/news-media/discover-collaborates-with-schneider-electric-solar-to-offer-closed-loop?utm_source=Discover+Newsletter&utm_campaign=a032e7dcfc-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_04_10&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_bebb7cd5e3-a032e7dcfc-174360841 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Discover & Xanbus.PNG Type: image/png Size: 132143 bytes Desc: not available URL: From will at solarenergy.org Wed Apr 11 13:00:32 2018 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 13:00:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fast recharge times for Discover, Schneider and Outback In-Reply-To: <5926aff1325d8c0762eaa193c15b8e55.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <5926aff1325d8c0762eaa193c15b8e55.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: Their website has absolutely no information on cycle life, I find that very strange. On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Discover battery is using Schneider Xanbus and soon Outback comms to > improve recharge times fro their LFP batteries. I have been very happy > with the results for a few clients. Just thought I would post the good > results. Might save you guys some generator run times! > > http://discoverbattery.com/news-media/discover- > collaborates-with-schneider-electric-solar-to-offer- > closed-loop?utm_source=Discover+Newsletter&utm_campaign=a032e7dcfc-EMAIL_ > CAMPAIGN_2018_04_10&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_bebb7cd5e3-a032e7dcfc- > 174360841 > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer [image: Inline image 3] e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 16761 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Apr 11 13:41:24 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 10:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fast recharge times for Discover, Schneider and Outback In-Reply-To: References: <5926aff1325d8c0762eaa193c15b8e55.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <464a903425d8a2195cdfe27b5fc0afdc.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I see 10 year warranty and 38 Megawatts in their warranty below. http://discoverbattery.com/resources/view/discover-aes-warranty-policy > Their website has absolutely no information on cycle life, I find that > very > strange. > > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> Discover battery is using Schneider Xanbus and soon Outback comms to >> improve recharge times fro their LFP batteries. I have been very happy >> with the results for a few clients. Just thought I would post the good >> results. Might save you guys some generator run times! >> >> http://discoverbattery.com/news-media/discover- >> collaborates-with-schneider-electric-solar-to-offer- >> closed-loop?utm_source=Discover+Newsletter&utm_campaign=a032e7dcfc-EMAIL_ >> CAMPAIGN_2018_04_10&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_bebb7cd5e3-a032e7dcfc- >> 174360841 >> >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > [image: Inline image 3] > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Apr 11 13:07:30 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 10:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fast recharge times for Discover, Schneider and Outback In-Reply-To: References: <5926aff1325d8c0762eaa193c15b8e55.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <66bd7439183e9464a93fa5a8afa729ac.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> The seminar that AEE had claimed unlimited cycles for 4 years. The data I saw (and I will try to find it) was as good as the others. About 6 to 8 thousand cycles and if you discharge 30% daily, it will take 3 days to equal one cycle. I may be mixing this up so when I find it I will be back, after I finish the work part.... > Their website has absolutely no information on cycle life, I find that > very > strange. > > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> Discover battery is using Schneider Xanbus and soon Outback comms to >> improve recharge times fro their LFP batteries. I have been very happy >> with the results for a few clients. Just thought I would post the good >> results. Might save you guys some generator run times! >> >> http://discoverbattery.com/news-media/discover- >> collaborates-with-schneider-electric-solar-to-offer- >> closed-loop?utm_source=Discover+Newsletter&utm_campaign=a032e7dcfc-EMAIL_ >> CAMPAIGN_2018_04_10&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_bebb7cd5e3-a032e7dcfc- >> 174360841 >> >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > [image: Inline image 3] > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From reosolar at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 09:27:53 2018 From: reosolar at gmail.com (Aaron Mandelkorn) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 13:27:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock Message-ID: Hi all, I have a customer that requires a mounting option I have yet to encounter. His site sits on top of of a massive hill of granite. It is relatively flat. Are there any mounting options that could work here? We are only talking about (12) to (16) modules for an off grid array. Is there anything that can bolt to rock? I typically use dpw or Mt solar pole mounts but can't imagine how these options could work. Any thoughts? Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 09:31:38 2018 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 09:31:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <947EFE7E-4D73-43F0-82D5-8034B55DF071@gmail.com> If you could get a well driller with a sense of humor you could put a hole in that you could mount a pole the other option is use a DPW ground mount and drill and anchor it in the four spots where is the feet sit Bob ellison But you will have to run ground wire to someplace to get a good ground > On Apr 12, 2018, at 9:27 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > > Hi all, > > I have a customer that requires a mounting option I have yet to encounter. His site sits on top of of a massive hill of granite. It is relatively flat. Are there any mounting options that could work here? We are only talking about (12) to (16) modules for an off grid array. Is there anything that can bolt to rock? I typically use dpw or Mt solar pole mounts but can't imagine how these options could work. Any thoughts? > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Thu Apr 12 09:36:40 2018 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 06:36:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Aaron, We¹ve done a project similar to this just a little smaller for an off grid client here in AZ. I could share info with you about how we did it off list if you¹d like. Might be a little long winded for the group. Thanks! Chad Waits President/Owner ­ Net Zero Solar 101 W. 5th St., Tucson, AZ 85705 Office: 520-207-4053 Cell: 520-270-4873 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Aaron Mandelkorn Reply-To: RE-wrenches Date: Thursday, April 12, 2018 at 6:27 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock Hi all, I have a customer that requires a mounting option I have yet to encounter. His site sits on top of of a massive hill of granite. It is relatively flat. Are there any mounting options that could work here? We are only talking about (12) to (16) modules for an off grid array. Is there anything that can bolt to rock? I typically use dpw or Mt solar pole mounts but can't imagine how these options could work. Any thoughts? Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Transparent-Logo Signature[1][14].png Type: image/png Size: 21245 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Thu Apr 12 09:43:47 2018 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 09:43:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock References: Message-ID: <634690DF26774343AD49919A7E92A4CA@PeterPC> Aaron There are a few ballast roof mount companies that promote their racking for ballast ground mount options. You may want to explore some of those. Peter Giroux ASAE ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Mandelkorn To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 9:27 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock Hi all, I have a customer that requires a mounting option I have yet to encounter. His site sits on top of of a massive hill of granite. It is relatively flat. Are there any mounting options that could work here? We are only talking about (12) to (16) modules for an off grid array. Is there anything that can bolt to rock? I typically use dpw or Mt solar pole mounts but can't imagine how these options could work. Any thoughts? Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 09:46:01 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 13:46:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Aaron, Granite is a great substrate to mount to (once it's done). You could weld a large flange plate onto the bottom of your pole, and bolt it to the granite using anchor bolts. Rock climbers (including myself) drill into granite all of the time. Bosch, among others, has a great drill and bit setup that works well. Glue in epoxies are a great way to keep moisture out of the hole for many years. Ballast racks are available too but it seems like a shame not to attach to the granite in some way. Good luck On Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 7:28 AM Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a customer that requires a mounting option I have yet to > encounter. His site sits on top of of a massive hill of granite. It is > relatively flat. Are there any mounting options that could work here? We > are only talking about (12) to (16) modules for an off grid array. Is > there anything that can bolt to rock? I typically use dpw or Mt solar pole > mounts but can't imagine how these options could work. Any thoughts? > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reosolar at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 09:53:52 2018 From: reosolar at gmail.com (Aaron Mandelkorn) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 13:53:52 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks all. The flange plate was what I was thinking. It may be to difficult to level a ballast mounting roof system. Engineering may be a little difficult I assume? Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 On Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 7:46 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Aaron, > > Granite is a great substrate to mount to (once it's done). You could weld > a large flange plate onto the bottom of your pole, and bolt it to the > granite using anchor bolts. Rock climbers (including myself) drill into > granite all of the time. Bosch, among others, has a great drill and bit > setup that works well. Glue in epoxies are a great way to keep moisture out > of the hole for many years. > > Ballast racks are available too but it seems like a shame not to attach to > the granite in some way. > > Good luck > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 7:28 AM Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I have a customer that requires a mounting option I have yet to >> encounter. His site sits on top of of a massive hill of granite. It is >> relatively flat. Are there any mounting options that could work here? We >> are only talking about (12) to (16) modules for an off grid array. Is >> there anything that can bolt to rock? I typically use dpw or Mt solar pole >> mounts but can't imagine how these options could work. Any thoughts? >> >> Aaron Mandelkorn >> President / Founder >> Renewable Energy Outfitters >> www.reosolar.com >> Off Grid Depot >> www.offgridnow.com >> 970-596-3744 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Thu Apr 12 10:01:54 2018 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 10:01:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm pretty sure Unirac has a flange base that is designed to attached to the bottom of a threaded pipe as part of their ULA rack that can be used to mount directly to rock. On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:53 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > Thanks all. The flange plate was what I was thinking. It may be to > difficult to level a ballast mounting roof system. Engineering may be a > little difficult I assume? > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 7:46 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hi Aaron, >> >> Granite is a great substrate to mount to (once it's done). You could weld >> a large flange plate onto the bottom of your pole, and bolt it to the >> granite using anchor bolts. Rock climbers (including myself) drill into >> granite all of the time. Bosch, among others, has a great drill and bit >> setup that works well. Glue in epoxies are a great way to keep moisture out >> of the hole for many years. >> >> Ballast racks are available too but it seems like a shame not to attach >> to the granite in some way. >> >> Good luck >> >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 7:28 AM Aaron Mandelkorn >> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I have a customer that requires a mounting option I have yet to >>> encounter. His site sits on top of of a massive hill of granite. It is >>> relatively flat. Are there any mounting options that could work here? We >>> are only talking about (12) to (16) modules for an off grid array. Is >>> there anything that can bolt to rock? I typically use dpw or Mt solar pole >>> mounts but can't imagine how these options could work. Any thoughts? >>> >>> Aaron Mandelkorn >>> President / Founder >>> Renewable Energy Outfitters >>> www.reosolar.com >>> Off Grid Depot >>> www.offgridnow.com >>> 970-596-3744 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer [image: Inline image 3] e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 16761 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reellison at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 10:18:52 2018 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 10:18:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6723BEB6-2AAA-49B9-AB98-2BCA787EE405@gmail.com> On a roof ground mount you just need four holes the front one should be relatively level if you have to shim them with concrete or something or even steel plates that would work The rears are adjustable legs so it’s no issue Look at DPW roof ground mount you’ll see what I mean Bob > On Apr 12, 2018, at 9:53 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > > Thanks all. The flange plate was what I was thinking. It may be to difficult to level a ballast mounting roof system. Engineering may be a little difficult I assume? > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > > >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 7:46 AM Mac Lewis wrote: >> Hi Aaron, >> >> Granite is a great substrate to mount to (once it's done). You could weld a large flange plate onto the bottom of your pole, and bolt it to the granite using anchor bolts. Rock climbers (including myself) drill into granite all of the time. Bosch, among others, has a great drill and bit setup that works well. Glue in epoxies are a great way to keep moisture out of the hole for many years. >> >> Ballast racks are available too but it seems like a shame not to attach to the granite in some way. >> >> Good luck >> >>> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 7:28 AM Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I have a customer that requires a mounting option I have yet to encounter. His site sits on top of of a massive hill of granite. It is relatively flat. Are there any mounting options that could work here? We are only talking about (12) to (16) modules for an off grid array. Is there anything that can bolt to rock? I typically use dpw or Mt solar pole mounts but can't imagine how these options could work. Any thoughts? >>> >>> Aaron Mandelkorn >>> President / Founder >>> Renewable Energy Outfitters >>> www.reosolar.com >>> Off Grid Depot >>> www.offgridnow.com >>> 970-596-3744 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Thu Apr 12 12:00:34 2018 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 16:00:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1599286432.1504526.1523548834701@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Aaron-- In high strength concrete, we've used red head trubolt wedge anchors, with 1/2" plate (6x6), four anchors/plate, with the posts welded to the plate. This setup passed engineering muster. The anchors were 3/4" by 4-3/4". The racking posts were a tripod of 4x6 stock welded to a pipe that would tilt the racking. A few years later, 90 mph winds sheared the pins that pinned the racking  to the post assembly. A few cracked modules, but the wedge anchors held just fine. We've used a Bosch spline drive drill over the years (11265EVS, about $600) and have been pleased with it. You can rent it or its big Makita cousin (HR5000) since your drilling down. The hammer drills are also sold in a sds version, but I've been old school. If you're not doing a lot of concrete rock work, I'd suggest buy a new bit and rent the drill. SDS bits cost a little less than splines and the 3/4" prices range from $25 to $50.  Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com From: Aaron Mandelkorn To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 9:28 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock Hi all, I have a customer that requires a mounting option I have yet to encounter.  His site sits on top of of a massive hill of granite.  It is relatively flat.  Are there any mounting options that could work here?  We are only talking about (12) to (16) modules for an off grid array.  Is there anything that can bolt to rock?  I typically use dpw or Mt solar pole mounts but can't imagine how these options could work.  Any thoughts?  Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744     _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 12 12:56:33 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 09:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fast recharge times for Discover, Schneider and Outback Message-ID: <418f79a8b845b2510c4b9e278eb3f88e.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> The Discover warranty is an excellent source for those who want to learn about how to damage and not to damage an LFP battery bank! If the bank is designed and reasonably used, it could outlive many of us! http://discoverbattery.com/resources/view/discover-aes-warranty-policy Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jj at aprsworld.com Thu Apr 12 12:42:22 2018 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 11:42:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9b624340-809a-73b7-0235-2b75455e0c9e@aprsworld.com> On 04/12/2018 08:53 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > Thanks all. The flange plate was what I was thinking. It may be to > difficult to level a ballast mounting roof system. Engineering may be > a little difficult I assume? No, engineering is easy. If it is unbroken it should be at least as strong as concrete. The epoxy in anchors will work. If the rock is not perfectly level you can do a thin concrete pad on top of the rock to make a flat spot to bolt to. Drill the anchors through the concrete leveling pad and into the rock. I love anchoring to rock. It's free and not going anywhere! -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC From reosolar at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 13:36:35 2018 From: reosolar at gmail.com (Aaron Mandelkorn) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 17:36:35 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock In-Reply-To: <9b624340-809a-73b7-0235-2b75455e0c9e@aprsworld.com> References: <9b624340-809a-73b7-0235-2b75455e0c9e@aprsworld.com> Message-ID: Thanks everyone. Sounds like most have had the opportunity to do this. I can't believe that in the Colorado mountains this is the first time I am running into this situation in 12 years of business. I'm excited to see how it works. A concrete pad for the anchor plate will work out perfectly. I appreciate all the advice and so promptly. This list is such a great resource! Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 On Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 11:16 AM James Jefferson Jarvis wrote: > On 04/12/2018 08:53 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > > Thanks all. The flange plate was what I was thinking. It may be to > > difficult to level a ballast mounting roof system. Engineering may be > > a little difficult I assume? > No, engineering is easy. If it is unbroken it should be at least as > strong as concrete. The epoxy in anchors will work. If the rock is not > perfectly level you can do a thin concrete pad on top of the rock to > make a flat spot to bolt to. Drill the anchors through the concrete > leveling pad and into the rock. > > I love anchoring to rock. It's free and not going anywhere! > > -James Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 12 14:08:51 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 12:08:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80a423d2-e94b-5dbd-53cb-9b66576b5e76@solarray.com> We've welded a flanged plate to the bottom of the pole and then set epoxy anchor bolts into the rock.  Another option we've tried is drill a 8" hole into the rock to get the base of the pole a foot down into the rock and then poured a reinforced block of concrete on top of the rock.  smaller holes were drilled into the surrounding rock to attach the concrete to the rock as well. Ballasted systems could be an option, as well as low profile racking with multiple anchor points.  Not fun but it can be done. Ray Walters On 4/12/18 7:27 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a customer that requires a mounting option I have yet to > encounter.  His site sits on top of of a massive hill of granite.  It > is relatively flat.  Are there any mounting options that could work > here?  We are only talking about (12) to (16) modules for an off grid > array.  Is there anything that can bolt to rock?  I typically use dpw > or Mt solar pole mounts but can't imagine how these options could > work.  Any thoughts? > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Apr 12 14:01:27 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 11:01:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9f3156c6e50167c647eaba8fcee7ca22@mail.gmail.com> Aaron: I recommend you consider a ballasted system. We have installed them on the ground to good effect. We grade a gravel surface to provide a level pad. With soil underneath we bound the area with railroad ties or similar, pegged into the soil to keep the gravel together. On your rock surface, a compacted road base should suffice. Wind conditions should be considered but these systems are engineered with that consideration in mind. [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Aaron Mandelkorn *Sent:* Thursday, April 12, 2018 6:28 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock Hi all, I have a customer that requires a mounting option I have yet to encounter. His site sits on top of of a massive hill of granite. It is relatively flat. Are there any mounting options that could work here? We are only talking about (12) to (16) modules for an off grid array. Is there anything that can bolt to rock? I typically use dpw or Mt solar pole mounts but can't imagine how these options could work. Any thoughts? Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 12 14:23:32 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 11:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock In-Reply-To: References: <9b624340-809a-73b7-0235-2b75455e0c9e@aprsworld.com> Message-ID: <576fd441b614865d4174f45a21f15b54.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Might as well put an 8" pole and an Array Technology AZ250 single axis tracker on:) Living offgrid in the cat bird seat! > Thanks everyone. Sounds like most have had the opportunity to do this. I > can't believe that in the Colorado mountains this is the first time I am > running into this situation in 12 years of business. I'm excited to see > how it works. A concrete pad for the anchor plate will work out > perfectly. I appreciate all the advice and so promptly. This list is such > a great resource! > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 11:16 AM James Jefferson Jarvis > wrote: > >> On 04/12/2018 08:53 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: >> > Thanks all. The flange plate was what I was thinking. It may be to >> > difficult to level a ballast mounting roof system. Engineering may be >> > a little difficult I assume? >> No, engineering is easy. If it is unbroken it should be at least as >> strong as concrete. The epoxy in anchors will work. If the rock is not >> perfectly level you can do a thin concrete pad on top of the rock to >> make a flat spot to bolt to. Drill the anchors through the concrete >> leveling pad and into the rock. >> >> I love anchoring to rock. It's free and not going anywhere! >> >> -James Jarvis >> APRS World, LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From dahlsolar at gmail.com Thu Apr 12 22:23:01 2018 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Jesse Dahl) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:23:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A08A5A5-BC5C-49D3-BBBE-FE5881FD00CB@gmail.com> I see installs like this all over lake of the woods in Canada. Maybe a Canadian installer can lead you in the right direction. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 12, 2018, at 8:27 AM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > > Hi all, > > I have a customer that requires a mounting option I have yet to encounter. His site sits on top of of a massive hill of granite. It is relatively flat. Are there any mounting options that could work here? We are only talking about (12) to (16) modules for an off grid array. Is there anything that can bolt to rock? I typically use dpw or Mt solar pole mounts but can't imagine how these options could work. Any thoughts? > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Apr 12 15:16:40 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 12:16:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Ibew_is_working_to_exclude_C-46_contract?= =?utf-8?q?or=E2=80=99s_from_installing_Batteries=2E?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Friends: I tell any prospective employee that in order to become a solar electrician, one must first be a qualified electrician. I am convinced of this point. Being a solar electrician adds much complexity on top of the traditional trade. However, not all electricians are good electricians. There is a lot of shoddy work being done out there. In fact there is only one electrician in my area I will refer to. I am not opposed to the fundamentals of organized labor, but while working as a union represented worker, I saw union management manipulate situations to benefit themselves over the worker and the employer. A lot of solar installers are not big-box but rather mom and pop style shops. IBEW moves appear to be intended to crush the small competitors, and that is not right with me. I agree we need a means to ensure good, safe installations. NABCEP seems to have no teeth in enforcing standards-- I have never been required to produce a certification. The only method in place now-- and it is spotty-- is through building permitting and inspections. I put my energy into educating local inspectors. Sorry to those C-46 holders out there, but in my opinion, if you don't hold a license to be an electrician, you shouldn’t be working as an electrician. William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Andrade Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 6:03 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ibew is working to exclude C-46 contractor’s from installing Batteries. Hi at this point I believe this is a California only issue, but I was contacted by CalSeia today and was asked to be involved in a discussion regarding a move where only a C-10 contractor can install a battery based system This was news to me but they sent me a pdf outlining the issue and I will read it over this weekend has anyone else heard about this? My instant response is what special training does the c10 have that the c46 doesn’t ? Jason Andrade West Coast Sustainables Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Apr 13 11:01:44 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 08:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?iso-8859-1?q?Ibew_is_working_to_exclude_C-46_con?= =?iso-8859-1?q?tractor=E2=80=99s_from_installing_Batteries=2E?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I simply hire a C10 if I need one to finish a job. Most of the time, C10's hire me:) 40+ years of electrical engineering is a great equalizer! FRIDAY ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Friends: > > I tell any prospective employee that in order to become a solar > electrician, > one must first be a qualified electrician. I am convinced of this point. > Being a solar electrician adds much complexity on top of the traditional > trade. > > However, not all electricians are good electricians. There is a lot of > shoddy work being done out there. In fact there is only one electrician > in > my area I will refer to. > > I am not opposed to the fundamentals of organized labor, but while working > as a union represented worker, I saw union management manipulate > situations > to benefit themselves over the worker and the employer. A lot of solar > installers are not big-box but rather mom and pop style shops. IBEW moves > appear to be intended to crush the small competitors, and that is not > right > with me. > > I agree we need a means to ensure good, safe installations. NABCEP seems > to > have no teeth in enforcing standards-- I have never been required to > produce > a certification. The only method in place now-- and it is spotty-- is > through building permitting and inspections. I put my energy into > educating > local inspectors. > > Sorry to those C-46 holders out there, but in my opinion, if you don't > hold > a license to be an electrician, you shouldn’t be working as an > electrician. > > William Miller > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Jason Andrade > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 6:03 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ibew is working to exclude C-46 contractor’s from > installing Batteries. > > Hi at this point I believe this is a California only issue, but I was > contacted by CalSeia today and was asked to be involved in a discussion > regarding a move where only a C-10 contractor can install a battery based > system This was news to me but they sent me a pdf outlining the issue and > I > will read it over this weekend has anyone else heard about this? > My instant response is what special training does the c10 have that the > c46 > doesn’t ? > Jason Andrade > West Coast Sustainables > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From solar at 4fast.net Fri Apr 13 14:55:39 2018 From: solar at 4fast.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 11:55:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Ibew_is_working_to_exclude_C-46_contract?= =?utf-8?q?or=E2=80=99s_from_installing_Batteries=2E?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9B3D5C30-BAFD-4EBF-BAFE-AB5DD78E6893@4fast.net> William, NABCEP writes no state laws, makes no regulations or policies. As such, the only “teeth” it has is to revoke or suspend the Certification of a bad actor. Some states have recognized the value of a NABCEP Certification and tied it to their solar incentive programs in some way, but not all do that. California is one bad example, but then, CA allowed C-46 solar thermal licensees to do PV back in the days because well… solar is solar, right? Idiots... On Apr 12, 2018, at 12:16 PM, William Miller wrote: Friends: I tell any prospective employee that in order to become a solar electrician, one must first be a qualified electrician. I am convinced of this point. Being a solar electrician adds much complexity on top of the traditional trade. However, not all electricians are good electricians. There is a lot of shoddy work being done out there. In fact there is only one electrician in my area I will refer to. I am not opposed to the fundamentals of organized labor, but while working as a union represented worker, I saw union management manipulate situations to benefit themselves over the worker and the employer. A lot of solar installers are not big-box but rather mom and pop style shops. IBEW moves appear to be intended to crush the small competitors, and that is not right with me. I agree we need a means to ensure good, safe installations. NABCEP seems to have no teeth in enforcing standards-- I have never been required to produce a certification. The only method in place now-- and it is spotty-- is through building permitting and inspections. I put my energy into educating local inspectors. Sorry to those C-46 holders out there, but in my opinion, if you don't hold a license to be an electrician, you shouldn’t be working as an electrician. William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Andrade Sent: Friday, March 23, 2018 6:03 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ibew is working to exclude C-46 contractor’s from installing Batteries. Hi at this point I believe this is a California only issue, but I was contacted by CalSeia today and was asked to be involved in a discussion regarding a move where only a C-10 contractor can install a battery based system This was news to me but they sent me a pdf outlining the issue and I will read it over this weekend has anyone else heard about this? My instant response is what special training does the c10 have that the c46 doesn’t ? Jason Andrade West Coast Sustainables Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Apr 13 18:05:34 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 16:05:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE and FlexNet DC shunts monitoring question In-Reply-To: <398ce4331a6644ce80c10862acb4da2b@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> References: <398ce4331a6644ce80c10862acb4da2b@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: Lones; Really appreciated your emails and phone calls on this issue, you laid it out beautifully on how the Mate 3s and FlexNetDC communicate and how to configure the shunt wiring. We will have it resolved in the next couple weeks. And I get to tell my students "Outback tech support called ME!!!" Thanks for all you do. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 9:45 AM, Lones Tuss wrote: > Hello Dan and Wrenches > > The FNDC can monitor up to 3 shunts. For the FNDC to give correct data all > current into and out of the batteries must go through a shunt. > > The standard shunt is 500 amp 50mv. If three shunts are used it may be a > good idea to use one shunt for the two FM 60’s, the second shunt for the > wind turbine and > > the third shunt for the Trace inverter. Each shunt is a two way device > meaning it can account for the inverter’s charge and discharge. A common > mistake is to wire the shunt backwards meaning if you have a source that is > charging it should show positive current flow into the batteries. This is > usually caused by reversing the sense leads on the shunt. > > Both the wind and solar should show as positive current flow into the > batteries. For the Trace be certain the current flow is positive when > charging and negative current flow when inverting. > > As far as viewing the FNDC information on optics if you hover your mouse > over the battery icon it will show real time shunt information from all > three shunts. The shunts can be labeled and their graphing information > viewed by clicking on the battery icon on the lower left of the main page. > Each of the FMs can be viewed and their graphing displayed by clicking on > the charge controllers icon also on the lower left on the main page. > > Programming changes to the FNDC and the FM charge controllers can be made > by selecting DEVICE MAP, selecting the specific device, making the required > changes then clicking on APPLY. > > On the inverter when charging you will see the positive current flow into > the batteries and negative current flow when inverting. As a side feature > if you were to use the OutBack temp sensor on the FM on port 1 of the Hub. > On the main page you can select 3 different information points. SOC, > battery voltage and battery temperature (either Fahrenheit or Celsius). SOC > is the default information point. > > When the FNDC is powered up it starts out at 100% SOC. So be certain to go > through a complete charge after the system is installed this will get the > batteries and the FNDC in sync. > > I hope this helps. > > Take Care Sirs > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dan Fink > *Sent:* Friday, March 16, 2018 7:44 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE and FlexNet DC shunts > monitoring question > > > > Esteemed Wrenches; > > > > We recently installed OpticsRE monitoring for an existing off-grid site in > Southern Colorado. It is 24v battery bank, 2.2kW PV, 2 Outback Flexmax 60 > controllers, nice old Trace SW inverter, and new wind turbine + controller > to replace a failed Whisper 200 with worn out furl and yaw bushings. > > > > We installed a FlexMaxDC shunt monitor into the Outback Hub, with the old > TriMetric shunt set as "inverter" and a new wind turbine shunt set as "wind" > > > > We removed the existing Bogart TriMetric and replaced it with the Mate 3s > and , everything is working fine for remote monitoring. But because the > Mate can't talk to the Trace inverter, it appears the PV input is > subtracting from the inverter output on that shunt. Thinking that moving > the PV input to the other side of the shunt will fix that, as the charge > controllers are talking to OpticsRE just fine. > > > > Questions: > > > > When the gasoline generator starts from low SOC (from the Trace SW relay) > will the FlexMaxDC Shunt A show a positive charging gain from the generator > or does FlexmaxDC only show one way (load or charge)? I don't see any way > of separating inverter load vs. generator gain. We will test this next > month down there, but it's 5 hours away, we just want to be prepared. > > > > Is there any way to graph the FlexMaxDC shunts on the main online > dashboard? They seem like a neglected child, only accessible by clicking > multiple menus, and just downloading data to a spreadsheet. The idea was to > show the client on a real-time graph how much the wind turbine is > contributing versus PV. > > > > For that main dashboard, we realize that without an Outback > inverter/charger, the graph will never show gasoline "generator" but if it > showed inverter loads as a gain, that would be enough. > > > > Still getting our heads wrapped around OpticsRE, but the setup and > commissioning was very easy, and it does work, after running a bunch of > CAT5 hardwired; Concrete/Adobe structure filled with remesh blocked all > efforts for wifi, The wifi router is located in the solar thermal room > downstairs (the ReSol monitoring works great on the thermal) and barely a > whiff of it upstairs at the electrical control room....OpticsRE seems to > need a pretty robust internet connection. > > > > Any thoughts appreciated, this is our first OpticsRE install. > > > > > > > > > Dan Fink > > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > > ~ PV Installation Professional > > ~ Small Wind Installer > > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > 970.672.4342 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Sat Apr 14 11:26:05 2018 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 15:26:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aaron, I have seen large pole mounts in Portugal in an above ground ring of concrete 3 feet high and 6 feet in diameter. I would get an engineers opinion on the size but that would be easier than digging a hole in rock. David Katz On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 6:27 AM Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a customer that requires a mounting option I have yet to > encounter. His site sits on top of of a massive hill of granite. It is > relatively flat. Are there any mounting options that could work here? We > are only talking about (12) to (16) modules for an off grid array. Is > there anything that can bolt to rock? I typically use dpw or Mt solar pole > mounts but can't imagine how these options could work. Any thoughts? > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Apr 14 12:11:29 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 10:11:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000501d3d40b$437d72e0$ca7858a0$@solarwork.com> The last time I looked at an engineered ballasted on the ground type of mount: 90 MPH micro burst/120 MPH winds came in at 18 # of ballast per sqft of module on a 38 deg rack with the leading edge at 3’ AFG. This was simple on flat ground. Back to the rock situation: I would suspect drilling rebar at opposing angles and creating a concrete pad with a rebar cage on a rock out-cropping would be a very stable platform depending on access to the location. I have hired a concrete pump trailer to overcome the 150’ distance from truck access to the array location. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of David Katz Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2018 9:26 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock Aaron, I have seen large pole mounts in Portugal in an above ground ring of concrete 3 feet high and 6 feet in diameter. I would get an engineers opinion on the size but that would be easier than digging a hole in rock. David Katz On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 6:27 AM Aaron Mandelkorn > wrote: Hi all, I have a customer that requires a mounting option I have yet to encounter. His site sits on top of of a massive hill of granite. It is relatively flat. Are there any mounting options that could work here? We are only talking about (12) to (16) modules for an off grid array. Is there anything that can bolt to rock? I typically use dpw or Mt solar pole mounts but can't imagine how these options could work. Any thoughts? Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Sat Apr 14 18:24:09 2018 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier, III) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 18:24:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock Message-ID: If it were me, I'd buy a case of Red Head A7 anchoring adhesive: https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0228790 Get an engineer to do the static load calculations and design the attachment disk and bolt pattern. Weld a big disk with holes around the edge and gussets to the bottom of your pole. Drill however many holes of whatever size the eng says into the rock and put in some B-type threaded rod with the A7. Washers and nuts above and below the disk to level it. Pack underneath it with concrete if you want. Granite is a great base if it is flat and solid. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sun Apr 15 13:22:32 2018 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 10:22:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Location of DC disconnect vis-a-vis rapid shutdown exemption Message-ID: <8f44c169-0c79-1b3c-c172-2eed4f1e38b3@berkeleysolar.com> Folks, As I recall, an inverter and it's integrated DC disconnect need only be placed in an accessible location. I am thinking of putting an inverter high up on the wall inside a garage. That would be OK vis-a-vis the location of the disconnect (still accessible for maintenance). If I do put the inverter high up on the wall, I can limit my DC conductors to less that 10 feet total from the array and less that 5 feet inside the garage. That means I get the exemption from the rapid disconnect requirement, right? There is nothing in the Code linking the accessibility of the DC disconnect to the exemption from rapid shutdown, right? Mark Frye From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sun Apr 15 23:26:36 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 22:26:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Location of DC disconnect vis-a-vis rapid shutdown exemption In-Reply-To: <8f44c169-0c79-1b3c-c172-2eed4f1e38b3@berkeleysolar.com> References: <8f44c169-0c79-1b3c-c172-2eed4f1e38b3@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: I think the code says Outside readily accessible, On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Mark Frye wrote: > Folks, > > As I recall, an inverter and it's integrated DC disconnect need only be > placed in an accessible location. I am thinking of putting an inverter high > up on the wall inside a garage. That would be OK vis-a-vis the location of > the disconnect (still accessible for maintenance). > > If I do put the inverter high up on the wall, I can limit my DC conductors > to less that 10 feet total from the array and less that 5 feet inside the > garage. > > That means I get the exemption from the rapid disconnect requirement, > right? > > There is nothing in the Code linking the accessibility of the DC > disconnect to the exemption from rapid shutdown, right? > > Mark Frye > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon Apr 16 00:04:03 2018 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 21:04:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Location of DC disconnect vis-a-vis rapid shutdown exemption In-Reply-To: References: <8f44c169-0c79-1b3c-c172-2eed4f1e38b3@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Thanks Darryl. I guess I can add that I am in CA and so looked only at the 2014. I also looked at the 2017 article. Man, I have to say, my impression remains that really starting with 2008 the code has just gotten worse and worse when it comes to PV, but that is just me. Not really sure what might need to be "Outside readily accessible". Is there something other than 690.12 that I need to look at? Mark On 4/15/2018 8:26 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > I think the code says Outside readily accessible, > > On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Mark Frye > wrote: > > Folks, > > As I recall, an inverter and it's integrated DC disconnect need > only be placed in an accessible location. I am thinking of putting > an inverter high up on the wall inside a garage. That would be OK > vis-a-vis the location of the disconnect (still accessible for > maintenance). > > If I do put the inverter high up on the wall, I can limit my DC > conductors to less that 10 feet total from the array and less that > 5 feet inside the garage. > > That means I get the exemption from the rapid disconnect > requirement, right? > > There is nothing in the Code linking the accessibility of the DC > disconnect to the exemption from rapid shutdown, right? > > Mark Frye > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Mon Apr 16 09:44:57 2018 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 09:44:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Location of DC disconnect vis-a-vis rapid shutdown exemption In-Reply-To: References: <8f44c169-0c79-1b3c-c172-2eed4f1e38b3@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Hey y'all, I'm going to disagree about the NEC getting "worse and worse when it comes to PV," (see disconnect and grounding requirements, for instance!), but as with previous posters, that's just an opinion. Regarding location - the 2014 version had very little to say about the location of any rapid shutdown initiation device; 2017 adds the requirement [690.12(C)] that RS initiation devices for one- and two-family dwellings be readily accessible (defined in Article 100), AND outside the building. Seems reasonable for a device that is intended to control energized conductors to make it more safe to enter a building. Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 520.204.6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 12:04 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > Thanks Darryl. > > I guess I can add that I am in CA and so looked only at the 2014. I also > looked at the 2017 article. Man, I have to say, my impression remains that > really starting with 2008 the code has just gotten worse and worse when it > comes to PV, but that is just me. > > Not really sure what might need to be "Outside readily accessible". Is > there something other than 690.12 that I need to look at? > > Mark > On 4/15/2018 8:26 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > > I think the code says Outside readily accessible, > > On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Mark Frye > wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> As I recall, an inverter and it's integrated DC disconnect need only be >> placed in an accessible location. I am thinking of putting an inverter high >> up on the wall inside a garage. That would be OK vis-a-vis the location of >> the disconnect (still accessible for maintenance). >> >> If I do put the inverter high up on the wall, I can limit my DC >> conductors to less that 10 feet total from the array and less that 5 feet >> inside the garage. >> >> That means I get the exemption from the rapid disconnect requirement, >> right? >> >> There is nothing in the Code linking the accessibility of the DC >> disconnect to the exemption from rapid shutdown, right? >> >> Mark Frye >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Apr 16 20:14:46 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 20:14:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Location of DC disconnect vis-a-vis rapid shutdown exemption In-Reply-To: References: <8f44c169-0c79-1b3c-c172-2eed4f1e38b3@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <007e01d3d5e1$18baf5a0$4a30e0e0$@glbcc.com> Mark, Darryl might be alluding to the 690.13A requirements for a DC disconnect – typically located outside the structure before conductors enter the building, and readily accessible. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mark Frye Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 12:04 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Location of DC disconnect vis-a-vis rapid shutdown exemption Thanks Darryl. I guess I can add that I am in CA and so looked only at the 2014. I also looked at the 2017 article. Man, I have to say, my impression remains that really starting with 2008 the code has just gotten worse and worse when it comes to PV, but that is just me. Not really sure what might need to be "Outside readily accessible". Is there something other than 690.12 that I need to look at? Mark On 4/15/2018 8:26 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: I think the code says Outside readily accessible, On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Mark Frye > wrote: Folks, As I recall, an inverter and it's integrated DC disconnect need only be placed in an accessible location. I am thinking of putting an inverter high up on the wall inside a garage. That would be OK vis-a-vis the location of the disconnect (still accessible for maintenance). If I do put the inverter high up on the wall, I can limit my DC conductors to less that 10 feet total from the array and less that 5 feet inside the garage. That means I get the exemption from the rapid disconnect requirement, right? There is nothing in the Code linking the accessibility of the DC disconnect to the exemption from rapid shutdown, right? Mark Frye _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Apr 16 21:00:45 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 19:00:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Location of DC disconnect vis-a-vis rapid shutdown exemption In-Reply-To: References: <8f44c169-0c79-1b3c-c172-2eed4f1e38b3@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: For GT using Solar edge or Enphase, its not so hard to comply, but If you are looking at off grid systems, it's not just someone's opinion, its $1,000s of dollars extra to comply with 690.12. It also results in a system that is less reliable, which is less safe off grid where lives depend on that power for heat, light, refrigeration, and even breathing machines. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 4/16/18 7:44 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > Hey y'all, I'm going to disagree about the NEC getting "worse and > worse when it comes to PV," (see disconnect and grounding > requirements, for instance!), but as with previous posters, that's > just an opinion. > > Regarding location - the 2014 version had very little to say about the > location of any rapid shutdown initiation device; 2017 adds the > requirement [690.12(C)] that RS initiation devices for one- and > two-family dwellings be readily accessible (defined in Article 100), > AND outside the building.  Seems reasonable for a device that is > intended to control energized conductors to make it more safe to enter > a building. > > Cheers, > > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > 520.204.6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 12:04 AM, Mark Frye > wrote: > > Thanks Darryl. > > I guess I can add that I am in CA and so looked only at the 2014. > I also looked at the 2017 article. Man, I have to say, my > impression remains that really starting with 2008 the code has > just gotten worse and worse when it comes to PV, but that is just me. > > Not really sure what might need to be "Outside readily > accessible". Is there something other than 690.12 that I need to > look at? > > Mark > > On 4/15/2018 8:26 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: >> I think the code says Outside readily accessible, >> >> On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Mark Frye >> > wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> As I recall, an inverter and it's integrated DC disconnect >> need only be placed in an accessible location. I am thinking >> of putting an inverter high up on the wall inside a garage. >> That would be OK vis-a-vis the location of the disconnect >> (still accessible for maintenance). >> >> If I do put the inverter high up on the wall, I can limit my >> DC conductors to less that 10 feet total from the array and >> less that 5 feet inside the garage. >> >> That means I get the exemption from the rapid disconnect >> requirement, right? >> >> There is nothing in the Code linking the accessibility of the >> DC disconnect to the exemption from rapid shutdown, right? >> >> Mark Frye >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 09:15:46 2018 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 09:15:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Location of DC disconnect vis-a-vis rapid shutdown exemption In-Reply-To: References: <8f44c169-0c79-1b3c-c172-2eed4f1e38b3@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Hi everyone, I strongly recommend looking at the figures that were added in NEC 2017 at the beginning of Article 690 in 690.1(b). What they show is equipment that is part of the PV system (to the left of the PV system disconnect called out in the diagrams), and equipment that is not part of the PV system (to the right of the PV system disconnect). These are really helpful diagrams, in terms of figuring out where the requirements of Article 690 apply. Equipment *not* part of the PV system is not a "PV system circuit" and thus is *not* subject to rapid shutdown requirements per 690.12. In every type of system you will see that energy storage is *not *part of the PV system, and neither is the multimode inverter for a system with energy storage. So rapid shutdown requirements shouldn't affect any of the loads, multimode inverter, or batteries in an off-grid system. In the 2017 NEC, the PV system disconnect, as shown on the diagrams, is required to be readily accessible per 690.13(A). For a system without batteries, the PV system disconnect is *always *an AC disconnect, not a DC disconnect. It can be the backfed breaker per 690.13(F)(1). For a system with batteries the PV system disconnect is always before the batteries. Equipment disconnects, like the DC inverter disconnect, are not required to be readily accessible, but must be within 10 feet of the equipment, per 690.15(A). Also note that the boundary for rapid shutdown shrank to *one foot* from the perimeter of the array in the 2017 NEC, so the inverter must be positioned within one foot of the array if there is not going to be any other RS equipment. The PV system disconnect (backfed breaker) or the service disconnect can serve as the rapid shutdown initiation device in that case. Best, Rebekah Hren, Member of NEC CMP-4 for Solar Energy International -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 9:00 PM, Ray wrote: > For GT using Solar edge or Enphase, its not so hard to comply, but If you > are looking at off grid systems, it's not just someone's opinion, its > $1,000s of dollars extra to comply with 690.12. It also results in a system > that is less reliable, which is less safe off grid where lives depend on > that power for heat, light, refrigeration, and even breathing machines. > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > On 4/16/18 7:44 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > > Hey y'all, I'm going to disagree about the NEC getting "worse and worse > when it comes to PV," (see disconnect and grounding requirements, for > instance!), but as with previous posters, that's just an opinion. > > Regarding location - the 2014 version had very little to say about the > location of any rapid shutdown initiation device; 2017 adds the requirement > [690.12(C)] that RS initiation devices for one- and two-family dwellings be > readily accessible (defined in Article 100), AND outside the building. > Seems reasonable for a device that is intended to control energized > conductors to make it more safe to enter a building. > > Cheers, > > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > 520.204.6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 12:04 AM, Mark Frye > wrote: > >> Thanks Darryl. >> >> I guess I can add that I am in CA and so looked only at the 2014. I also >> looked at the 2017 article. Man, I have to say, my impression remains that >> really starting with 2008 the code has just gotten worse and worse when it >> comes to PV, but that is just me. >> >> Not really sure what might need to be "Outside readily accessible". Is >> there something other than 690.12 that I need to look at? >> >> Mark >> On 4/15/2018 8:26 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: >> >> I think the code says Outside readily accessible, >> >> On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Mark Frye >> wrote: >> >>> Folks, >>> >>> As I recall, an inverter and it's integrated DC disconnect need only be >>> placed in an accessible location. I am thinking of putting an inverter high >>> up on the wall inside a garage. That would be OK vis-a-vis the location of >>> the disconnect (still accessible for maintenance). >>> >>> If I do put the inverter high up on the wall, I can limit my DC >>> conductors to less that 10 feet total from the array and less that 5 feet >>> inside the garage. >>> >>> That means I get the exemption from the rapid disconnect requirement, >>> right? >>> >>> There is nothing in the Code linking the accessibility of the DC >>> disconnect to the exemption from rapid shutdown, right? >>> >>> Mark Frye >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Apr 17 13:47:32 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 07:47:32 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3-phase with storage Message-ID: Aloha all. I'm on the hunt for workable options for a PV plus storage design for a 3-phase 120/208 application. And there ain't much out there at present. Any suggestions would be appreciated. mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Tue Apr 17 14:33:40 2018 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:33:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3-phase with storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SMA Sunny Island, Outback, and Schneider can all be configured for three phase systems. On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 1:47 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Aloha all. > > I'm on the hunt for workable options for a PV plus storage design for a > 3-phase 120/208 application. > > And there ain't much out there at present. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > mahalo, > marco > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer [image: Inline image 3] e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 16761 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 14:54:57 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 18:54:57 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3-phase with storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Marco Outback R is available we got batteries too, we ccn talk off list if you like, im on island too Jerry On Tue, Apr 17, 2018, 8:19 AM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Aloha all. > > I'm on the hunt for workable options for a PV plus storage design for a > 3-phase 120/208 application. > > And there ain't much out there at present. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Apr 17 14:34:56 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 11:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3-phase with storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1faaff88acc5ebdebd79db1e8ae32ff8.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I do not want to sound like I am plugging Discover AES batteries and there use with Schneider and soon Outback. There web page has a 3 phase XW+ system on it and all the coms built in to the BMS to work with Xanbus. AEE had a webinar also last week. It is on their U-tube channel. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Aloha all. > > I'm on the hunt for workable options for a PV plus storage design for a > 3-phase 120/208 application. > > And there ain't much out there at present. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Apr 17 18:51:53 2018 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 22:51:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3-phase with storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0fdaf41a5581494bb50d7db263060000@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> We are building a similar system presently, 60 kW Sunny Island Inverters, 400 kWh battery storage (FLA), dual 100 kW backup generators, 25 kW PV, 5 kW microhydro. Don't know what raw capacity you are looking for, we also use XW inverters for smaller systems but find they don't scale nearly as well as SMA for larger power needs. I'd like to go with Lithium battery tech but it still looks like pricing is still 2-3x Flooded Lead Acid and my clients don't tend to want to be on the bleeding edge more looking for field proven reliability. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: April-17-18 10:48 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3-phase with storage Aloha all. I'm on the hunt for workable options for a PV plus storage design for a 3-phase 120/208 application. And there ain't much out there at present. Any suggestions would be appreciated. mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 17 20:10:20 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 00:10:20 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3-phase with storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have done it, not hard but limited to 32 kw for backup power, 120/208 3 phaze using Outback FXR On Tue, Apr 17, 2018, 1:19 PM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Aloha all. > > I'm on the hunt for workable options for a PV plus storage design for a > 3-phase 120/208 application. > > And there ain't much out there at present. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Apr 18 00:56:05 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 22:56:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Location of DC disconnect vis-a-vis rapid shutdown exemption In-Reply-To: References: <8f44c169-0c79-1b3c-c172-2eed4f1e38b3@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <231ac463-589e-f563-b6bb-07ecbb68221f@solarray.com> Hi Rebekah; Thanks for pointing out the changes to the diagrams.  I especially appreciate Note (2). /The PV system disconnect in these diagrams separates the PV system from all other systems./ That seems simple enough for defining the boundaries of RSS, until you think about off grid, and look at the last diagram of 690.1(b) titled "Stand Alone System".  The charge controller is not shown at all.  Then Figure 690.1(a) shows a /DC to DC Converter (optional location)/, shows a fuse after, shows the power going with an arrow to no where, on a line labeled /PV or DC to DC converter output circuit...../ But finally, the cause of my greatest confusion: it does not show the *PV System Disconnect* anywhere. I have several questions: Is a charge controller a *DC to DC converter*?  What about non MPPT controllers that don't convert voltage? Is a charge controller considered *DC* *utilization Equipment* mentioned in the definition of *PV Output Circuit*, or is the inverter and DC loads the utilization equipment? All of which leads to the $20 thousand dollar question: Is the *PV System Disconnect* before or after the charge controller? If before the charge controller, where can the PV Disconnect be? Could it be outside, at the pole, or does it need to be within 3 ft of the building entry? Even with all the changes made in 2017, it seems that we still are left with too much uncertainty about where a PV circuit ends, or what constitutes the "PV Disconnect" in an off grid system.  Not such a big deal, until we are required to apply 690.12. Thanks everyone for your answers and opinions, Ray Walters Design Engineer Remote Solar On 4/17/18 7:15 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I strongly recommend looking at the figures that were added in NEC > 2017 at the beginning of Article 690 in 690.1(b). > > What they show is equipment that is part of the PV system (to the left > of the PV system disconnect called out in the diagrams), and equipment > that is not part of the PV system (to the right of the PV system > disconnect). These are really helpful diagrams, in terms of figuring > out where the requirements of Article 690 apply. > > Equipment *not* part of the PV system is not a "PV system circuit" and > thus is *not* subject to rapid shutdown requirements per 690.12. > > In every type of system you will see that energy storage is *not *part > of the PV system, and neither is the multimode inverter for a system > with energy storage. So rapid shutdown requirements shouldn't affect > any of the loads, multimode inverter, or batteries in an off-grid system. > > In the 2017 NEC, the PV system disconnect, as shown on the diagrams, > is required to be readily accessible per 690.13(A). For a system > without batteries, the PV system disconnect is *always *an AC > disconnect, not a DC disconnect. It can be the backfed breaker per > 690.13(F)(1). For a system with batteries the PV system disconnect is > always before the batteries. > > > Equipment disconnects, like the DC inverter disconnect, are not > required to be readily accessible, but must be within 10 feet of the > equipment, per 690.15(A). > > Also note that the boundary for rapid shutdown shrank to *one foot* > from the perimeter of the array in the 2017 NEC, so the inverter must > be positioned within one foot of the array if there is not going to be > any other RS equipment. The PV system disconnect (backfed breaker) or > the service disconnect can serve as the rapid shutdown initiation > device in that case. > > Best, > Rebekah Hren, Member of NEC CMP-4 for Solar Energy International > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 9:00 PM, Ray > wrote: > > For GT using Solar edge or Enphase, its not so hard to comply, but > If you are looking at off grid systems, it's not just someone's > opinion, its $1,000s of dollars extra to comply with 690.12. It > also results in a system that is less reliable, which is less safe > off grid where lives depend on that power for heat, light, > refrigeration, and even breathing machines. > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > > On 4/16/18 7:44 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >> Hey y'all, I'm going to disagree about the NEC getting "worse and >> worse when it comes to PV," (see disconnect and grounding >> requirements, for instance!), but as with previous posters, >> that's just an opinion. >> >> Regarding location - the 2014 version had very little to say >> about the location of any rapid shutdown initiation device; 2017 >> adds the requirement [690.12(C)] that RS initiation devices for >> one- and two-family dwellings be readily accessible (defined in >> Article 100), AND outside the building. Seems reasonable for a >> device that is intended to control energized conductors to make >> it more safe to enter a building. >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> Brian Mehalic >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >> 520.204.6639 >> >> Solar Energy International >> http://www.solarenergy.org >> >> SEI Professional Services >> http://www.seisolarpros.com >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 12:04 AM, Mark Frye >> > wrote: >> >> Thanks Darryl. >> >> I guess I can add that I am in CA and so looked only at the >> 2014. I also looked at the 2017 article. Man, I have to say, >> my impression remains that really starting with 2008 the code >> has just gotten worse and worse when it comes to PV, but that >> is just me. >> >> Not really sure what might need to be "Outside readily >> accessible". Is there something other than 690.12 that I need >> to look at? >> >> Mark >> >> On 4/15/2018 8:26 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: >>> I think the code says Outside readily accessible, >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Mark Frye >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Folks, >>> >>> As I recall, an inverter and it's integrated DC >>> disconnect need only be placed in an accessible >>> location. I am thinking of putting an inverter high up >>> on the wall inside a garage. That would be OK vis-a-vis >>> the location of the disconnect (still accessible for >>> maintenance). >>> >>> If I do put the inverter high up on the wall, I can >>> limit my DC conductors to less that 10 feet total from >>> the array and less that 5 feet inside the garage. >>> >>> That means I get the exemption from the rapid disconnect >>> requirement, right? >>> >>> There is nothing in the Code linking the accessibility >>> of the DC disconnect to the exemption from rapid >>> shutdown, right? >>> >>> Mark Frye >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Apr 17 19:35:37 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 16:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3-phase with storage In-Reply-To: <0fdaf41a5581494bb50d7db263060000@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <0fdaf41a5581494bb50d7db263060000@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <79aa5621f5a04541877c9726eceddd5c.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> The 2 Lithium batteries I use are HALT tested but it is always a big risk with a battery that may out live many of the clients. The math on these batteries has them lasting 30 to 40 years offgrid and that is pretty hard to believe! Will the BMS fail or the battery? If they can afford it I have them do both chemistries! Add a second inverter and a lithium bank. They get power redundancy and the efficiency is really amazing to someone living offgrid. Especially in winter of course! >From a single Conext XW+ unit to clusters up to 102 kW, the Conext XW+ is a scalable system that allows for the integration of solar capacity as required. I like Sunny also:) Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > We are building a similar system presently, 60 kW Sunny Island Inverters, > 400 kWh battery storage (FLA), dual 100 kW backup generators, 25 kW PV, 5 > kW microhydro. > > Don't know what raw capacity you are looking for, we also use XW inverters > for smaller systems but find they don't scale nearly as well as SMA for > larger power needs. > > I'd like to go with Lithium battery tech but it still looks like pricing > is still 2-3x Flooded Lead Acid and my clients don't tend to want to be on > the bleeding edge more looking for field proven reliability. > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf > Sent: April-17-18 10:48 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3-phase with storage > > Aloha all. > I'm on the hunt for workable options for a PV plus storage design for a > 3-phase 120/208 application. > And there ain't much out there at present. > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From dana at solarwork.com Wed Apr 18 12:00:27 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 10:00:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Message-ID: <002101d3d72e$68492d50$38db87f0$@solarwork.com> Good Morning Wrenches, I am required to keep the bare #6 copper from touching the aluminum frame work of a Array Technologies tracker where it is not mechanically connected by a pass-through ground clamp on a tracking array [dissimilar metals] and am looking for a lead on an insulated standoff or strap to hold the #6 bare copper as it passes from panel to panel and rail to rail. The plans examiner would accept pass through clamps & this is a worst case-spendy solution to this. I have searched the inquired at local electrical warehouse &on the internet and to no avail under "insulated strap" & "insulated cable standoff". Has anyone else encountered his & what did you use? Where did you source this strap? I remember seeing something like this in the fuzzy past & cannot recall where I saw it or what it was for. Thanks for any suggestions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 12:03:56 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 16:03:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <002101d3d72e$68492d50$38db87f0$@solarwork.com> References: <002101d3d72e$68492d50$38db87f0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I used a clip from Iron Ridge check with them On Wed, Apr 18, 2018, 11:00 AM Dana wrote: > Good Morning Wrenches, > > > > I am required to keep the bare #6 copper from touching the aluminum frame > work of a Array Technologies tracker where it is not mechanically connected > by a pass-through ground clamp on a tracking array [dissimilar metals] and > am looking for a lead on an insulated standoff or strap to hold the #6 bare > copper as it passes from panel to panel and rail to rail. The plans > examiner would accept pass through clamps & this is a worst case-spendy > solution to this. > > > > I have searched the inquired at local electrical warehouse &on the > internet and to no avail under “insulated strap” & “insulated cable > standoff”. > > > > Has anyone else encountered his & what did you use? Where did you source > this strap? > > > > I remember seeing something like this in the fuzzy past & cannot recall > where I saw it or what it was for. > > > > Thanks for any suggestions. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Wed Apr 18 12:16:12 2018 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 12:16:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <002101d3d72e$68492d50$38db87f0$@solarwork.com> References: <002101d3d72e$68492d50$38db87f0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: How about an insulated loop clamp like this one: https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0216763 You can get them in stainless and they have the rubber grommet so it won't touch the rack. On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Dana wrote: > Good Morning Wrenches, > > > > I am required to keep the bare #6 copper from touching the aluminum frame > work of a Array Technologies tracker where it is not mechanically connected > by a pass-through ground clamp on a tracking array [dissimilar metals] and > am looking for a lead on an insulated standoff or strap to hold the #6 bare > copper as it passes from panel to panel and rail to rail. The plans > examiner would accept pass through clamps & this is a worst case-spendy > solution to this. > > > > I have searched the inquired at local electrical warehouse &on the > internet and to no avail under “insulated strap” & “insulated cable > standoff”. > > > > Has anyone else encountered his & what did you use? Where did you source > this strap? > > > > I remember seeing something like this in the fuzzy past & cannot recall > where I saw it or what it was for. > > > > Thanks for any suggestions. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer [image: Inline image 3] e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 16761 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 12:31:10 2018 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 12:31:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Location of DC disconnect vis-a-vis rapid shutdown exemption In-Reply-To: <231ac463-589e-f563-b6bb-07ecbb68221f@solarray.com> References: <8f44c169-0c79-1b3c-c172-2eed4f1e38b3@berkeleysolar.com> <231ac463-589e-f563-b6bb-07ecbb68221f@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray, The stand-alone diagram calls out the PV system disconnect right after the PV system DC circuits and prior to the point of common coupling with the batteries and the stand-alone inverter. Yes, you are correct a controller or DC to DC converter is not shown in the this diagram or the dc-coupled diagram. The reason the charge controller is not called out in the diagram is because it can be on either side of the PV system disconnect, depending on the topology of the system. For example, a controller connected to a DC bus with multiple power sources that would still be operational if the PV system is disconnected would be outside the PV system disconnect demarcation. If the controller serves no purpose when the PV system is disconnected, then it makes sense to have the charge controller output circuit be the location of the PV system disconnect. One way to think about this is what happens when you open (turn off) the PV system disconnect. So for example a multimode inverter doesn't care if the PV system disco is open, it will just keep on doing its job, pulling power from the batteries and providing power to the loads. If the charge controller can't keep doing its job with no PV power source, then it really belongs to the PV system. Maybe this seems silly, but as particularly energy storage systems and microgrids get more complicated, it doesn't always make sense to have hard and fast rules about what equipment belongs to which system. I realize this makes rapid shutdown more confusing. But for a DC-coupled stand-alone system it seems the major question here is whether the RS shutdown switch (or switches) control the circuits before or after the charge controller. For most typical small systems, I would say probably after the controller, but I think this is open to some debate. The rules for locating a DC PV system disconnect are found in 690.13 - it really just has to be readily accessible. It may or may not also serve the purpose of the rapid shutdown initiation switch, that's up to you as the system designer. Best, Rebekah On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:56 AM, Ray wrote: > Hi Rebekah; > > Thanks for pointing out the changes to the diagrams. I especially > appreciate Note (2). *The PV system disconnect in these diagrams > separates the PV system from all other systems.* > That seems simple enough for defining the boundaries of RSS, until you > think about off grid, and look at the last diagram of 690.1(b) titled > "Stand Alone System". The charge controller is not shown at all. Then > Figure 690.1(a) shows a *DC to DC Converter (optional location)*, shows a > fuse after, shows the power going with an arrow to no where, on a line > labeled *PV or DC to DC converter output circuit.....* But finally, the > cause of my greatest confusion: it does not show the *PV System > Disconnect* anywhere. > > I have several questions: > Is a charge controller a *DC to DC converter*? What about non MPPT > controllers that don't convert voltage? > Is a charge controller considered *DC* *utilization Equipment* mentioned > in the definition of *PV Output Circuit*, or is the inverter and DC loads > the utilization equipment? > All of which leads to the $20 thousand dollar question: Is the *PV System > Disconnect* before or after the charge controller? > If before the charge controller, where can the PV Disconnect be? Could it > be outside, at the pole, or does it need to be within 3 ft of the building > entry? > > Even with all the changes made in 2017, it seems that we still are left > with too much uncertainty about where a PV circuit ends, or what > constitutes the "PV Disconnect" in an off grid system. Not such a big > deal, until we are required to apply 690.12. > > Thanks everyone for your answers and opinions, > > Ray Walters > Design Engineer > Remote Solar > > > On 4/17/18 7:15 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I strongly recommend looking at the figures that were added in NEC 2017 at > the beginning of Article 690 in 690.1(b). > > What they show is equipment that is part of the PV system (to the left of > the PV system disconnect called out in the diagrams), and equipment that is > not part of the PV system (to the right of the PV system disconnect). These > are really helpful diagrams, in terms of figuring out where the > requirements of Article 690 apply. > > Equipment *not* part of the PV system is not a "PV system circuit" and > thus is *not* subject to rapid shutdown requirements per 690.12. > > In every type of system you will see that energy storage is *not *part of > the PV system, and neither is the multimode inverter for a system with > energy storage. So rapid shutdown requirements shouldn't affect any of the > loads, multimode inverter, or batteries in an off-grid system. > > In the 2017 NEC, the PV system disconnect, as shown on the diagrams, is > required to be readily accessible per 690.13(A). For a system without > batteries, the PV system disconnect is *always *an AC disconnect, not a > DC disconnect. It can be the backfed breaker per 690.13(F)(1). For a > system with batteries the PV system disconnect is always before the > batteries. > > > Equipment disconnects, like the DC inverter disconnect, are not required > to be readily accessible, but must be within 10 feet of the equipment, per > 690.15(A). > > Also note that the boundary for rapid shutdown shrank to *one foot* from > the perimeter of the array in the 2017 NEC, so the inverter must be > positioned within one foot of the array if there is not going to be any > other RS equipment. The PV system disconnect (backfed breaker) or the > service disconnect can serve as the rapid shutdown initiation device in > that case. > > Best, > Rebekah Hren, Member of NEC CMP-4 for Solar Energy International > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 9:00 PM, Ray wrote: > >> For GT using Solar edge or Enphase, its not so hard to comply, but If you >> are looking at off grid systems, it's not just someone's opinion, its >> $1,000s of dollars extra to comply with 690.12. It also results in a system >> that is less reliable, which is less safe off grid where lives depend on >> that power for heat, light, refrigeration, and even breathing machines. >> >> Ray Walters >> >> Remote Solar >> >> On 4/16/18 7:44 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >> >> Hey y'all, I'm going to disagree about the NEC getting "worse and worse >> when it comes to PV," (see disconnect and grounding requirements, for >> instance!), but as with previous posters, that's just an opinion. >> >> Regarding location - the 2014 version had very little to say about the >> location of any rapid shutdown initiation device; 2017 adds the requirement >> [690.12(C)] that RS initiation devices for one- and two-family dwellings be >> readily accessible (defined in Article 100), AND outside the building. >> Seems reasonable for a device that is intended to control energized >> conductors to make it more safe to enter a building. >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> Brian Mehalic >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >> 520.204.6639 >> >> Solar Energy International >> http://www.solarenergy.org >> >> SEI Professional Services >> http://www.seisolarpros.com >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 12:04 AM, Mark Frye >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Darryl. >>> >>> I guess I can add that I am in CA and so looked only at the 2014. I also >>> looked at the 2017 article. Man, I have to say, my impression remains that >>> really starting with 2008 the code has just gotten worse and worse when it >>> comes to PV, but that is just me. >>> >>> Not really sure what might need to be "Outside readily accessible". Is >>> there something other than 690.12 that I need to look at? >>> >>> Mark >>> On 4/15/2018 8:26 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: >>> >>> I think the code says Outside readily accessible, >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Mark Frye >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Folks, >>>> >>>> As I recall, an inverter and it's integrated DC disconnect need only be >>>> placed in an accessible location. I am thinking of putting an inverter high >>>> up on the wall inside a garage. That would be OK vis-a-vis the location of >>>> the disconnect (still accessible for maintenance). >>>> >>>> If I do put the inverter high up on the wall, I can limit my DC >>>> conductors to less that 10 feet total from the array and less that 5 feet >>>> inside the garage. >>>> >>>> That means I get the exemption from the rapid disconnect requirement, >>>> right? >>>> >>>> There is nothing in the Code linking the accessibility of the DC >>>> disconnect to the exemption from rapid shutdown, right? >>>> >>>> Mark Frye >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Apr 18 12:59:02 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 09:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: References: <002101d3d72e$68492d50$38db87f0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <4244e49bbfd7bc5c2bb987b9429ff48f.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Why is it #6? Usually the solar panels wire size determine Array Teks size for this wiring. What do they say please? --Dave > How about an insulated loop clamp like this one: > https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0216763 > > You can get them in stainless and they have the rubber grommet so it won't > touch the rack. > > On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Dana wrote: > >> Good Morning Wrenches, >> >> >> >> I am required to keep the bare #6 copper from touching the aluminum >> frame >> work of a Array Technologies tracker where it is not mechanically >> connected >> by a pass-through ground clamp on a tracking array [dissimilar metals] >> and >> am looking for a lead on an insulated standoff or strap to hold the #6 >> bare >> copper as it passes from panel to panel and rail to rail. The plans >> examiner would accept pass through clamps & this is a worst case-spendy >> solution to this. >> >> >> >> I have searched the inquired at local electrical warehouse &on the >> internet and to no avail under “insulated strap” & “insulated >> cable >> standoff”. >> >> >> >> Has anyone else encountered his & what did you use? Where did you source >> this strap? >> >> >> >> I remember seeing something like this in the fuzzy past & cannot recall >> where I saw it or what it was for. >> >> >> >> Thanks for any suggestions. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---------------- >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> * >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> >> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > [image: Inline image 3] > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From whitleyforman at yahoo.com Wed Apr 18 17:23:06 2018 From: whitleyforman at yahoo.com (whitley forman) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:23:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1440701605.2282421.1524086586045@mail.yahoo.com> You should not have to run a EGC/GEC along the with Array Technologies. When I have installed these in the past we always mechanically bond within the bicinity of the conduit or box we are running our wiring through. No need to non-mechanically attach anywhere. Whitley Forman    Bannon Specialty Electric Systems    whitley at bannonses.com Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 5:01 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to     re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org You can reach the person managing the list at     re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. Today's Topics:   1. Re: Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff       (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 09:59:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar" To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Message-ID:     <4244e49bbfd7bc5c2bb987b9429ff48f.squirrel at webmail.sti.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Why is it #6? Usually the solar panels wire size determine Array Teks size for this wiring. What do they say please?  --Dave > How about an insulated loop clamp like this one: > https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0216763 > > You can get them in stainless and they have the rubber grommet so it won't > touch the rack. > > On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Dana wrote: > >> Good Morning Wrenches, >> >> >> >> I am required to keep the bare #6 copper from touching the aluminum >> frame >> work of a Array Technologies tracker where it is not mechanically >> connected >> by a pass-through ground clamp on a tracking array [dissimilar metals] >> and >> am looking for a lead on an insulated standoff or strap to hold the #6 >> bare >> copper as it passes from panel to panel and rail to rail. The plans >> examiner would accept pass through clamps & this is a worst case-spendy >> solution to this. >> >> >> >> I have searched the inquired at local electrical warehouse &on the >> internet and to no avail under ???insulated strap??? & ???insulated >> cable >> standoff???. >> >> >> >> Has anyone else encountered his & what did you use? Where did you source >> this strap? >> >> >> >> I remember seeing something like this in the fuzzy past & cannot recall >> where I saw it or what it was for. >> >> >> >> Thanks for any suggestions. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---------------- >> >> Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *C - 208.721.7003                      dana at solarwork.com >> * >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765        Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136                      www.solarwork.biz >> >> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  * >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > [image: Inline image 3] > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail  offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 11, Issue 137 ******************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewsirum at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 17:53:45 2018 From: matthewsirum at gmail.com (Matthew Sirum) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 17:53:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Message-ID: Greetings Dana, You may consider sheathing the bare copper wire in a product appropriately rated for the outdoors and UV etc... Possibly Liquidtight Flexible Nonmetallic Conduit (LFNC), electronics insulating sheathing, continuous grommet channel, heat shrink tubing, or some type of weather stripping product. Stainless steel cable clamps ("p" clips); bare, coated, or with EPDM bushing/lining may also be a possible solution. Heyco Products may be a good source to search for a solution: https://www.heyco.com/ If time and budget allows you may like to consider using an appropriately rated insulated wire with a green outer finish. #6 AWG USE-2 with green insulation may be an option. The insulation can be removed where needed for connection to the ground lugs etc. Hope you find a good solution for the project. Best regards, ----MATT Matthew Sirum P.O. Box 1227 Greenfield, MA 01302-1227 USA phone: +1.413.773.0611 email: MatthewSirum at gmail.com ---------- Original Message Below ---------- [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Dana dana at solarwork.com Wed Apr 18 09:00:27 PDT 2018 Good Morning Wrenches, I am required to keep the bare #6 copper from touching the aluminum frame work of a Array Technologies tracker where it is not mechanically connected by a pass-through ground clamp on a tracking array [dissimilar metals] and am looking for a lead on an insulated standoff or strap to hold the #6 bare copper as it passes from panel to panel and rail to rail. The plans examiner would accept pass through clamps & this is a worst case-spendy solution to this. I have searched the inquired at local electrical warehouse &on the internet and to no avail under "insulated strap" & "insulated cable standoff". Has anyone else encountered his & what did you use? Where did you source this strap? I remember seeing something like this in the fuzzy past & cannot recall where I saw it or what it was for. Thanks for any suggestions. From dana at solarwork.com Wed Apr 18 18:06:33 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 16:06:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #8 bare standoff Message-ID: <008801d3d761$884e9fd0$98ebdf70$@solarwork.com> According to our state plans examiner; all modules, module rails shall be bonded. The array Tech tracker is not on their approved list of self-grounding racks. It is a 3-4 product list. Initially I was told I was going to have to remove the trackers. Since then they have mellowed a bit. We live in a narrow canyon & that extra 32% makes a significant difference in Nov-Feb. We did not have to run the generator once this winter & never went below 89% full. Tracking really does not pencil out with todays price of modules. In tight canyons, with narrow winter windows and a lack of array mounting space make trackers an excellent choice. I am not an advocate of roof mounted PV in snow country in general though that’s where most of it goes. There is something that is sexy about trackers too, they are like a magnet for interested clients. Thanks for the suggestions folks I ordered the insulated loop clamps. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of whitley forman Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 3:23 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff You should not have to run a EGC/GEC along the with Array Technologies. When I have installed these in the past we always mechanically bond within the bicinity of the conduit or box we are running our wiring through. No need to non-mechanically attach anywhere. Whitley Forman Bannon Specialty Electric Systems whitley at bannonses.com Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 5:01 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org < re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org You can reach the person managing the list at re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. Today's Topics: 1. Re: Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 09:59:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar" > To: "RE-wrenches" > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Message-ID: <4244e49bbfd7bc5c2bb987b9429ff48f.squirrel at webmail.sti.net > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Why is it #6? Usually the solar panels wire size determine Array Teks size for this wiring. What do they say please? --Dave > How about an insulated loop clamp like this one: > https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0216763 > > You can get them in stainless and they have the rubber grommet so it won't > touch the rack. > > On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Dana > wrote: > >> Good Morning Wrenches, >> >> >> >> I am required to keep the bare #6 copper from touching the aluminum >> frame >> work of a Array Technologies tracker where it is not mechanically >> connected >> by a pass-through ground clamp on a tracking array [dissimilar metals] >> and >> am looking for a lead on an insulated standoff or strap to hold the #6 >> bare >> copper as it passes from panel to panel and rail to rail. The plans >> examiner would accept pass through clamps & this is a worst case-spendy >> solution to this. >> >> >> >> I have searched the inquired at local electrical warehouse &on the >> internet and to no avail under ???insulated strap??? & ???insulated >> cable >> standoff???. >> >> >> >> Has anyone else encountered his & what did you use? Where did you source >> this strap? >> >> >> >> I remember seeing something like this in the fuzzy past & cannot recall >> where I saw it or what it was for. >> >> >> >> Thanks for any suggestions. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---------------- >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> >* >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> >> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > [image: Inline image 3] > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 11, Issue 137 ******************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Apr 18 20:24:40 2018 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 18:24:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <4244e49bbfd7bc5c2bb987b9429ff48f.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <002101d3d72e$68492d50$38db87f0$@solarwork.com> <4244e49bbfd7bc5c2bb987b9429ff48f.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <0795BFC4-A8AB-4653-8668-D3FA666FBA93@skyfireenergy.com> Dana, Why does it have to be bare copper? Can you not use a green insulated #6? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Apr 18, 2018, at 10:59 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Why is it #6? Usually the solar panels wire size determine Array Teks size > for this wiring. What do they say please? --Dave > >> How about an insulated loop clamp like this one: >> https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0216763 >> >> You can get them in stainless and they have the rubber grommet so it won't >> touch the rack. >> >>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Dana wrote: >>> >>> Good Morning Wrenches, >>> >>> >>> >>> I am required to keep the bare #6 copper from touching the aluminum >>> frame >>> work of a Array Technologies tracker where it is not mechanically >>> connected >>> by a pass-through ground clamp on a tracking array [dissimilar metals] >>> and >>> am looking for a lead on an insulated standoff or strap to hold the #6 >>> bare >>> copper as it passes from panel to panel and rail to rail. The plans >>> examiner would accept pass through clamps & this is a worst case-spendy >>> solution to this. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have searched the inquired at local electrical warehouse &on the >>> internet and to no avail under “insulated strap” & “insulated >>> cable >>> standoff”. >>> >>> >>> >>> Has anyone else encountered his & what did you use? Where did you source >>> this strap? >>> >>> >>> >>> I remember seeing something like this in the fuzzy past & cannot recall >>> where I saw it or what it was for. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for any suggestions. >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ---------------- >>> >>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>> >>> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>> * >>> >>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>> >>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >>> >>> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >>> >>> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> *Will White* >> Curriculum Developer >> >> [image: Inline image 3] >> >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> w: www.solarenergy.org >> p: 802-272-3092 >> >> PV Installation Professional >> # 093006-34 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Apr 18 18:11:56 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #8 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <008801d3d761$884e9fd0$98ebdf70$@solarwork.com> References: <008801d3d761$884e9fd0$98ebdf70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <1a5d21e10f54c7352bc99d4e4159fcf2.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Dana, sometimes I virtual track if I think that city hall is going to be a problem. Virtual tracking also has better wind/snow loads on Mountains and easier with the crazy requirements in hurricane zones. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > According to our state plans examiner; all modules, module rails shall be > bonded. The array Tech tracker is not on their approved list of > self-grounding racks. It is a 3-4 product list. Initially I was told I was > going to have to remove the trackers. Since then they have mellowed a > bit. > > > > We live in a narrow canyon & that extra 32% makes a significant difference > in Nov-Feb. We did not have to run the generator once this winter & never > went below 89% full. > > Tracking really does not pencil out with todays price of modules. In tight > canyons, with narrow winter windows and a lack of array mounting space > make trackers an excellent choice. I am not an advocate of roof mounted PV > in snow country in general though that’s where most of it goes. > > There is something that is sexy about trackers too, they are like a magnet > for interested clients. > > > > Thanks for the suggestions folks I ordered the insulated loop clamps. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 > www.solarwork.biz > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of > whitley forman > Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 3:23 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > > > You should not have to run a EGC/GEC along the with Array Technologies. > When I have installed these in the past we always mechanically bond within > the bicinity of the conduit or box we are running our wiring through. No > need to non-mechanically attach anywhere. > > > > Whitley Forman > > Bannon Specialty Electric Systems > > whitley at bannonses.com > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > > > On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 5:01 PM, > > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > < > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > > > > > > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the > Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines > from the quoted message. > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 09:59:02 -0700 (PDT) > > From: "Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar" > > > To: "RE-wrenches" > > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > Message-ID: > > <4244e49bbfd7bc5c2bb987b9429ff48f.squirrel at webmail.sti.net > > > > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > Why is it #6? Usually the solar panels wire size determine Array Teks size > > for this wiring. What do they say please? --Dave > > > >> How about an insulated loop clamp like this one: > >> https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0216763 > >> > >> You can get them in stainless and they have the rubber grommet so it >> won't > >> touch the rack. > >> > >> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Dana > > wrote: > >> > >>> Good Morning Wrenches, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I am required to keep the bare #6 copper from touching the aluminum > >>> frame > >>> work of a Array Technologies tracker where it is not mechanically > >>> connected > >>> by a pass-through ground clamp on a tracking array [dissimilar metals] > >>> and > >>> am looking for a lead on an insulated standoff or strap to hold the #6 > >>> bare > >>> copper as it passes from panel to panel and rail to rail. The plans > >>> examiner would accept pass through clamps & this is a worst case-spendy > >>> solution to this. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I have searched the inquired at local electrical warehouse &on the > >>> internet and to no avail under ???insulated strap??? & ???insulated > >>> cable > >>> standoff???. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Has anyone else encountered his & what did you use? Where did you >>> source > >>> this strap? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I remember seeing something like this in the fuzzy past & cannot recall > >>> where I saw it or what it was for. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks for any suggestions. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> ---------------- > >>> > >>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > >>> > >>> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>> > >>> >* > >>> > >>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > >>> > >>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >>> > >>> > >>> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > >>> > >>> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >>> > >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > >>> Change listserver email address & settings: > >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> > >>> org/maillist.html > >>> > >>> List rules & etiquette: > >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > >>> Check out or update participant bios: > >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> *Will White* > >> Curriculum Developer > >> > >> [image: Inline image 3] > >> > >> e: will at solarenergy.org > >> w: www.solarenergy.org > >> p: 802-272-3092 > >> > >> PV Installation Professional > >> # 093006-34 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Subject: Digest Footer > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 11, Issue 137 > > ******************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Apr 18 21:15:25 2018 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 18:15:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <0795BFC4-A8AB-4653-8668-D3FA666FBA93@skyfireenergy.com> References: <002101d3d72e$68492d50$38db87f0$@solarwork.com> <4244e49bbfd7bc5c2bb987b9429ff48f.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <0795BFC4-A8AB-4653-8668-D3FA666FBA93@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <03AEB9AB-FB38-4A4C-90D0-CEB15B7A0485@gmail.com> Or just thhn #6 ? Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Apr 18, 2018, at 5:24 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Dana, > Why does it have to be bare copper? Can you not use a green insulated #6? > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > >> On Apr 18, 2018, at 10:59 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> >> Why is it #6? Usually the solar panels wire size determine Array Teks size >> for this wiring. What do they say please? --Dave >> >>> How about an insulated loop clamp like this one: >>> https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0216763 >>> >>> You can get them in stainless and they have the rubber grommet so it won't >>> touch the rack. >>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Dana wrote: >>>> >>>> Good Morning Wrenches, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am required to keep the bare #6 copper from touching the aluminum >>>> frame >>>> work of a Array Technologies tracker where it is not mechanically >>>> connected >>>> by a pass-through ground clamp on a tracking array [dissimilar metals] >>>> and >>>> am looking for a lead on an insulated standoff or strap to hold the #6 >>>> bare >>>> copper as it passes from panel to panel and rail to rail. The plans >>>> examiner would accept pass through clamps & this is a worst case-spendy >>>> solution to this. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have searched the inquired at local electrical warehouse &on the >>>> internet and to no avail under “insulated strap” & “insulated >>>> cable >>>> standoff”. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Has anyone else encountered his & what did you use? Where did you source >>>> this strap? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I remember seeing something like this in the fuzzy past & cannot recall >>>> where I saw it or what it was for. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for any suggestions. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ---------------- >>>> >>>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>>> >>>> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>>> * >>>> >>>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>>> >>>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >>>> >>>> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >>>> >>>> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>>> org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> *Will White* >>> Curriculum Developer >>> >>> [image: Inline image 3] >>> >>> e: will at solarenergy.org >>> w: www.solarenergy.org >>> p: 802-272-3092 >>> >>> PV Installation Professional >>> # 093006-34 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 19 01:17:55 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 23:17:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <0795BFC4-A8AB-4653-8668-D3FA666FBA93@skyfireenergy.com> References: <002101d3d72e$68492d50$38db87f0$@solarwork.com> <4244e49bbfd7bc5c2bb987b9429ff48f.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <0795BFC4-A8AB-4653-8668-D3FA666FBA93@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: That was my question as well.  USE -2 with green insulation is available.  Sorry to hear about AHJ's in Idaho being stuck over a decade back.  I thought that array grounding was UL listed and better spelled out now in NEC 2017.  What code cycle are you all on? Ray Walters Remote Solar On 4/18/18 6:24 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Dana, > Why does it have to be bare copper? Can you not use a green insulated #6? > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > >> On Apr 18, 2018, at 10:59 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> >> Why is it #6? Usually the solar panels wire size determine Array Teks size >> for this wiring. What do they say please? --Dave >> >>> How about an insulated loop clamp like this one: >>> https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0216763 >>> >>> You can get them in stainless and they have the rubber grommet so it won't >>> touch the rack. >>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Dana wrote: >>>> >>>> Good Morning Wrenches, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am required to keep the bare #6 copper from touching the aluminum >>>> frame >>>> work of a Array Technologies tracker where it is not mechanically >>>> connected >>>> by a pass-through ground clamp on a tracking array [dissimilar metals] >>>> and >>>> am looking for a lead on an insulated standoff or strap to hold the #6 >>>> bare >>>> copper as it passes from panel to panel and rail to rail. The plans >>>> examiner would accept pass through clamps & this is a worst case-spendy >>>> solution to this. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have searched the inquired at local electrical warehouse &on the >>>> internet and to no avail under “insulated strap” & “insulated >>>> cable >>>> standoff”. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Has anyone else encountered his & what did you use? Where did you source >>>> this strap? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I remember seeing something like this in the fuzzy past & cannot recall >>>> where I saw it or what it was for. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for any suggestions. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ---------------- >>>> >>>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>>> >>>> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>>> * >>>> >>>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>>> >>>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >>>> >>>> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >>>> >>>> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>>> org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> *Will White* >>> Curriculum Developer >>> >>> [image: Inline image 3] >>> >>> e: will at solarenergy.org >>> w: www.solarenergy.org >>> p: 802-272-3092 >>> >>> PV Installation Professional >>> # 093006-34 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From mikek at spiritsolar.net Thu Apr 19 10:44:05 2018 From: mikek at spiritsolar.net (Mike Kocsmiersky) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 10:44:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <4244e49bbfd7bc5c2bb987b9429ff48f.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <002101d3d72e$68492d50$38db87f0$@solarwork.com> <4244e49bbfd7bc5c2bb987b9429ff48f.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <016001d3d7ec$e0e45370$a2acfa50$@net> My quick thoughts would be using a sunlight resistant insulated wire, and stripping the insulation where needed to make the grounding connection. Second would be to use a tinned copper wire, where I believe eliminates the galvanic corrosion / dissimilar metals issue, but perhaps not depending on the metals. I've always used for metal roof applications. Mike Kocsmiersky Principal Spirit Solar Inc. (413) 734-1456 -----Original Message----- From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar [mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 12:59 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Why is it #6? Usually the solar panels wire size determine Array Teks size for this wiring. What do they say please? --Dave > How about an insulated loop clamp like this one: > https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0216763 > > You can get them in stainless and they have the rubber grommet so it won't > touch the rack. > > On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Dana wrote: > >> Good Morning Wrenches, >> >> >> >> I am required to keep the bare #6 copper from touching the aluminum >> frame >> work of a Array Technologies tracker where it is not mechanically >> connected >> by a pass-through ground clamp on a tracking array [dissimilar metals] >> and >> am looking for a lead on an insulated standoff or strap to hold the #6 >> bare >> copper as it passes from panel to panel and rail to rail. The plans >> examiner would accept pass through clamps & this is a worst case-spendy >> solution to this. >> >> >> >> I have searched the inquired at local electrical warehouse &on the >> internet and to no avail under “insulated strap” & “insulated >> cable >> standoff”. >> >> >> >> Has anyone else encountered his & what did you use? Where did you source >> this strap? >> >> >> >> I remember seeing something like this in the fuzzy past & cannot recall >> where I saw it or what it was for. >> >> >> >> Thanks for any suggestions. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---------------- >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> * >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> >> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > [image: Inline image 3] > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From markf at berkeleysolar.com Thu Apr 19 11:02:01 2018 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:02:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Across "Walkway" Message-ID: <52a559e9-bfae-d3d2-6645-7a65a87f6d1f@berkeleysolar.com> Folks, I have a 3 foot "walkway" on a roof pitch and between two separate arrays, as required. Is there anything that prevents me from running a conduit between the two arrays, across the "walkway"? Thanks, Mark Frye From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 19 10:37:27 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 07:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: References: <002101d3d72e$68492d50$38db87f0$@solarwork.com> <4244e49bbfd7bc5c2bb987b9429ff48f.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <0795BFC4-A8AB-4653-8668-D3FA666FBA93@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <2529a04cad9e483e5c5803a0006f053c.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> A question on this thread for you folks. Have you seen or heard of anyone building a single axis or dual tracker like the old Array Tek AZ 125 ? I really miss that tracker as it was on a 6 " pipe that I could install by myself. The 8" is just too hard for me to do at this ripe age. I could get 2KW on that 6 inch pole and very quickly give a huge positive impact on an offgrid home. Anything out there? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > That was my question as well.  USE -2 with green insulation is > available.  Sorry to hear about AHJ's in Idaho being stuck over a decade > back.  I thought that array grounding was UL listed and better spelled > out now in NEC 2017.  What code cycle are you all on? > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > > On 4/18/18 6:24 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >> Dana, >> Why does it have to be bare copper? Can you not use a green insulated >> #6? >> >> Benn Kilburn >> SkyFire Energy >> 780-906-7807 >> >>> On Apr 18, 2018, at 10:59 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> wrote: >>> >>> Why is it #6? Usually the solar panels wire size determine Array Teks >>> size >>> for this wiring. What do they say please? --Dave >>> >>>> How about an insulated loop clamp like this one: >>>> https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0216763 >>>> >>>> You can get them in stainless and they have the rubber grommet so it >>>> won't >>>> touch the rack. >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Dana wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Good Morning Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am required to keep the bare #6 copper from touching the aluminum >>>>> frame >>>>> work of a Array Technologies tracker where it is not mechanically >>>>> connected >>>>> by a pass-through ground clamp on a tracking array [dissimilar >>>>> metals] >>>>> and >>>>> am looking for a lead on an insulated standoff or strap to hold the >>>>> #6 >>>>> bare >>>>> copper as it passes from panel to panel and rail to rail. The plans >>>>> examiner would accept pass through clamps & this is a worst >>>>> case-spendy >>>>> solution to this. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have searched the inquired at local electrical warehouse &on the >>>>> internet and to no avail under “insulated strap” & “insulated >>>>> cable >>>>> standoff”. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Has anyone else encountered his & what did you use? Where did you >>>>> source >>>>> this strap? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I remember seeing something like this in the fuzzy past & cannot >>>>> recall >>>>> where I saw it or what it was for. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for any suggestions. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ---------------- >>>>> >>>>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>>>> >>>>> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>>>> >>>>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >>>>> >>>>> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >>>>> >>>>> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>>>> org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> *Will White* >>>> Curriculum Developer >>>> >>>> [image: Inline image 3] >>>> >>>> e: will at solarenergy.org >>>> w: www.solarenergy.org >>>> p: 802-272-3092 >>>> >>>> PV Installation Professional >>>> # 093006-34 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From garrison.rie at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 11:24:45 2018 From: garrison.rie at gmail.com (Garrison) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 10:24:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Square D Recall Message-ID: Not sure if you heard, but Square D is recalling 30A and 60A disconnects that were manufactured in the last 4 years. Apparently they can stay energized in the off position. Over 1 millions units affected, many on PV systems I’m sure. https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2018/schneider-electric-recalls-square-d-safety-switches-due-to-electrical-shock-hazard Be careful out there! Garrison Riegel Rethink Electric -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Apr 19 11:34:42 2018 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 11:34:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Across "Walkway" In-Reply-To: <52a559e9-bfae-d3d2-6645-7a65a87f6d1f@berkeleysolar.com> References: <52a559e9-bfae-d3d2-6645-7a65a87f6d1f@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Mark- The 2018 IFC and IRC both state "Pathways shall be located in areas with minimal obstructions, such as vent pipes, conduit or mechanical equipment." It must be permanently marked "WARNING PHOTOVOLTAIC POWER SOURCE" in accordance with 690.31(G)(3) as well. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 520.204.6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 11:02 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > Folks, > > I have a 3 foot "walkway" on a roof pitch and between two separate arrays, > as required. > > Is there anything that prevents me from running a conduit between the two > arrays, across the "walkway"? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Apr 19 11:37:16 2018 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 11:37:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Square D Recall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Attached are the details on the recalled units, along with Schneider's inspection procedures, care of a Mike Holt email blast. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 520.204.6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Garrison wrote: > Not sure if you heard, but Square D is recalling 30A and 60A disconnects > that were manufactured in the last 4 years. Apparently they can stay > energized in the off position. Over 1 millions units affected, many on PV > systems I’m sure. > > https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2018/schneider-electric- > recalls-square-d-safety-switches-due-to-electrical-shock-hazard > > Be careful out there! > > Garrison Riegel > Rethink Electric > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ExhibitC_Inspection_Procedures_Square_D_Switch_Recall.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 260603 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Thu Apr 19 11:45:05 2018 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:45:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Across "Walkway" In-Reply-To: References: <52a559e9-bfae-d3d2-6645-7a65a87f6d1f@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <6309ad1c-8625-f938-5ca1-7bd4c27f1910@berkeleysolar.com> Thanks Brian, I would read this as saying that I CAN run a conduit across the walkway since it would be only a "minimal obstruction". MarK On 4/19/2018 8:34 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > Mark- > The 2018 IFC and IRC both state "Pathways shall be located in areas > with minimal obstructions, such as vent pipes, conduit or mechanical > equipment." > > It must be permanently marked "WARNING PHOTOVOLTAIC POWER SOURCE" in > accordance with 690.31(G)(3) as well. > > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > 520.204.6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 11:02 AM, Mark Frye > wrote: > > Folks, > > I have a 3 foot "walkway" on a roof pitch and between two separate > arrays, as required. > > Is there anything that prevents me from running a conduit between > the two arrays, across the "walkway"? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 12:03:16 2018 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (Joe Nelson) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:03:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Across "Walkway" In-Reply-To: <6309ad1c-8625-f938-5ca1-7bd4c27f1910@berkeleysolar.com> References: <52a559e9-bfae-d3d2-6645-7a65a87f6d1f@berkeleysolar.com> <6309ad1c-8625-f938-5ca1-7bd4c27f1910@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <001e01d3d7f7$ee4f6170$caee2450$@gmail.com> Our qualifier has always been (from local AHJ’s) just that it’s not high enough off the deck that it’s a “trip hazard” . . Which for us, just meant that we would offset bend it down to a minimum height off the deck 3”-4” . . From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mark Frye Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 8:45 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Across "Walkway" Thanks Brian, I would read this as saying that I CAN run a conduit across the walkway since it would be only a "minimal obstruction". MarK On 4/19/2018 8:34 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: Mark- The 2018 IFC and IRC both state "Pathways shall be located in areas with minimal obstructions, such as vent pipes, conduit or mechanical equipment." It must be permanently marked "WARNING PHOTOVOLTAIC POWER SOURCE" in accordance with 690.31(G)(3) as well. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 520.204.6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 11:02 AM, Mark Frye > wrote: Folks, I have a 3 foot "walkway" on a roof pitch and between two separate arrays, as required. Is there anything that prevents me from running a conduit between the two arrays, across the "walkway"? Thanks, Mark Frye _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Thu Apr 19 12:52:22 2018 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 06:52:22 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking ID ? Message-ID: Aloha All, Can anyone out there identify the racking system in the attached photo? Thanks in advance. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_20180326_140711.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 130384 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Apr 19 13:06:13 2018 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 13:06:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking ID ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That looks like DPW / Preformed Line Products Power Rail. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 520.204.6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Lou Russo wrote: > Aloha All, > > Can anyone out there identify the racking system in the attached photo? > > Thanks in advance. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Apr 19 13:47:06 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 11:47:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <03AEB9AB-FB38-4A4C-90D0-CEB15B7A0485@gmail.com> References: <002101d3d72e$68492d50$38db87f0$@solarwork.com> <4244e49bbfd7bc5c2bb987b9429ff48f.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <0795BFC4-A8AB-4653-8668-D3FA666FBA93@skyfireenergy.com> <03AEB9AB-FB38-4A4C-90D0-CEB15B7A0485@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004101d3d806$71d3b6a0$557b23e0$@solarwork.com> I have tried to find green #6 USE. #6 thhn & thhnw are not rated for sunlight as I have been informed. I have seen #6 USE in green offered but on inquiry it was only available if I purchased 10,000 Lft. When I pass on, I guess they could wrap me in it, electrify it & drop me in a hole someday down the road. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of MDElectricSolar Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 7:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Or just thhn #6 ? Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Apr 18, 2018, at 5:24 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Dana, > Why does it have to be bare copper? Can you not use a green insulated #6? > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > >> On Apr 18, 2018, at 10:59 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> >> Why is it #6? Usually the solar panels wire size determine Array Teks >> size for this wiring. What do they say please? --Dave >> >>> How about an insulated loop clamp like this one: >>> https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0216763 >>> >>> You can get them in stainless and they have the rubber grommet so it >>> won't touch the rack. >>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Dana wrote: >>>> >>>> Good Morning Wrenches, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am required to keep the bare #6 copper from touching the aluminum >>>> frame work of a Array Technologies tracker where it is not >>>> mechanically connected by a pass-through ground clamp on a tracking >>>> array [dissimilar metals] and am looking for a lead on an insulated >>>> standoff or strap to hold the #6 bare copper as it passes from >>>> panel to panel and rail to rail. The plans examiner would accept >>>> pass through clamps & this is a worst case-spendy solution to this. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have searched the inquired at local electrical warehouse &on the >>>> internet and to no avail under “insulated strap” & “insulated cable >>>> standoff”. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Has anyone else encountered his & what did you use? Where did you >>>> source this strap? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I remember seeing something like this in the fuzzy past & cannot >>>> recall where I saw it or what it was for. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for any suggestions. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ---------------- >>>> >>>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>>> >>>> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>>> * >>>> >>>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>>> >>>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >>>> >>>> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >>>> >>>> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >>>> g >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>>> org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> *Will White* >>> Curriculum Developer >>> >>> [image: Inline image 3] >>> >>> e: will at solarenergy.org >>> w: www.solarenergy.org >>> p: 802-272-3092 >>> >>> PV Installation Professional >>> # 093006-34 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/mailli >>> st.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis >> t.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 19 12:38:15 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Square D Recall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The good news here is it is not the 600vdc discos:) > Attached are the details on the recalled units, along with Schneider's > inspection procedures, care of a Mike Holt email blast. > > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > 520.204.6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Garrison wrote: > >> Not sure if you heard, but Square D is recalling 30A and 60A disconnects >> that were manufactured in the last 4 years. Apparently they can stay >> energized in the off position. Over 1 millions units affected, many on >> PV >> systems I’m sure. >> >> https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2018/schneider-electric- >> recalls-square-d-safety-switches-due-to-electrical-shock-hazard >> >> Be careful out there! >> >> Garrison Riegel >> Rethink Electric >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From bill at berkssolar.com Thu Apr 19 15:56:22 2018 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 19:56:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <004101d3d806$71d3b6a0$557b23e0$@solarwork.com> References: <002101d3d72e$68492d50$38db87f0$@solarwork.com> <4244e49bbfd7bc5c2bb987b9429ff48f.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <0795BFC4-A8AB-4653-8668-D3FA666FBA93@skyfireenergy.com> <03AEB9AB-FB38-4A4C-90D0-CEB15B7A0485@gmail.com> <004101d3d806$71d3b6a0$557b23e0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <2028351484.1649954.1524167782942@mail.yahoo.com> Dana, There are probably some others, but you can buy #6 copper use-2 green online by the foot ($0.64) from https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/6-awg-xlp-use-2-rhh-rhw-2-building-wire.html and Platt is selling #4 Al use-2 green for ($0.23) https://www.platt.com/platt-electric-supply/USE-Type-Aluminum/Multiple/4USEAGREX1000/product.aspx?zpid=69642 If you were buried with the 10,000 feet, folks would remember you as well-grounded.  Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC From: Dana To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 1:47 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff I have tried to find green #6 USE. #6 thhn & thhnw are not rated for sunlight as I have been informed. I have seen #6 USE in green offered but on inquiry it  was only available if I purchased 10,000 Lft. When I pass on, I guess they could wrap me in it, electrify it & drop me in a hole someday down the road. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003                      dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765        Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136                      www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"   Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of MDElectricSolar Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 7:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Or just thhn #6 ? Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Apr 18, 2018, at 5:24 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Dana, > Why does it have to be bare copper? Can you not use a green insulated #6? > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > >> On Apr 18, 2018, at 10:59 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> >> Why is it #6? Usually the solar panels wire size determine Array Teks >> size for this wiring. What do they say please?  --Dave >> >>> How about an insulated loop clamp like this one: >>> https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0216763 >>> >>> You can get them in stainless and they have the rubber grommet so it >>> won't touch the rack. >>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Dana wrote: >>>> >>>> Good Morning Wrenches, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am required to keep the bare #6 copper from touching the aluminum >>>> frame work of a Array Technologies tracker where it is not >>>> mechanically connected by a pass-through ground clamp on a tracking >>>> array [dissimilar metals] and am looking for a lead on an insulated >>>> standoff or strap to hold the #6 bare copper as it passes from >>>> panel to panel and rail to rail. The plans examiner would accept >>>> pass through clamps & this is a worst case-spendy solution to this. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have searched the inquired at local electrical warehouse &on the >>>> internet and to no avail under “insulated strap” & “insulated cable >>>> standoff”. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Has anyone else encountered his & what did you use? Where did you >>>> source this strap? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I remember seeing something like this in the fuzzy past & cannot >>>> recall where I saw it or what it was for. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for any suggestions. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ---------------- >>>> >>>> Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. >>>> >>>> *C - 208.721.7003                      dana at solarwork.com >>>> * >>>> >>>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765        Idaho PV # 028374 >>>> >>>> NABCEP # 051112-136                      www.solarwork.biz >>>> >>>> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  * >>>> >>>> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >>>> g >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>>> org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> *Will White* >>> Curriculum Developer >>> >>> [image: Inline image 3] >>> >>> e: will at solarenergy.org >>> w: www.solarenergy.org >>> p: 802-272-3092 >>> >>> PV Installation Professional >>> # 093006-34 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/mailli >>> st.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail  offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis >> t.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Apr 19 16:23:53 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 14:23:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <2028351484.1649954.1524167782942@mail.yahoo.com> References: <002101d3d72e$68492d50$38db87f0$@solarwork.com> <4244e49bbfd7bc5c2bb987b9429ff48f.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <0795BFC4-A8AB-4653-8668-D3FA666FBA93@skyfireenergy.com> <03AEB9AB-FB38-4A4C-90D0-CEB15B7A0485@gmail.com> <004101d3d806$71d3b6a0$557b23e0$@solarwork.com> <2028351484.1649954.1524167782942@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008201d3d81c$5644a6e0$02cdf4a0$@solarwork.com> Platt was the one who said I needed to order 10,000 LFT. I have ordered & now received the insulated standoffs from Fastenal and will be running the #8 bare copper. As always thanks everyone for your input time & efforts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bill Hennessy Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 1:56 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Dana, There are probably some others, but you can buy #6 copper use-2 green online by the foot ($0.64) from https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/6-awg-xlp-use-2-rhh-rhw-2-building-wire.html and Platt is selling #4 Al use-2 green for ($0.23) https://www.platt.com/platt-electric-supply/USE-Type-Aluminum/Multiple/4USEAGREX1000/product.aspx?zpid=69642 If you were buried with the 10,000 feet, folks would remember you as well-grounded. Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC _____ From: Dana > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 1:47 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff I have tried to find green #6 USE. #6 thhn & thhnw are not rated for sunlight as I have been informed. I have seen #6 USE in green offered but on inquiry it was only available if I purchased 10,000 Lft. When I pass on, I guess they could wrap me in it, electrify it & drop me in a hole someday down the road. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of MDElectricSolar Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 7:15 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Or just thhn #6 ? Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Apr 18, 2018, at 5:24 PM, Benn Kilburn > wrote: > > Dana, > Why does it have to be bare copper? Can you not use a green insulated #6? > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > >> On Apr 18, 2018, at 10:59 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: >> >> Why is it #6? Usually the solar panels wire size determine Array Teks >> size for this wiring. What do they say please? --Dave >> >>> How about an insulated loop clamp like this one: >>> https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0216763 >>> >>> You can get them in stainless and they have the rubber grommet so it >>> won't touch the rack. >>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Dana > wrote: >>>> >>>> Good Morning Wrenches, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am required to keep the bare #6 copper from touching the aluminum >>>> frame work of a Array Technologies tracker where it is not >>>> mechanically connected by a pass-through ground clamp on a tracking >>>> array [dissimilar metals] and am looking for a lead on an insulated >>>> standoff or strap to hold the #6 bare copper as it passes from >>>> panel to panel and rail to rail. The plans examiner would accept >>>> pass through clamps & this is a worst case-spendy solution to this. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have searched the inquired at local electrical warehouse &on the >>>> internet and to no avail under “insulated strap” & “insulated cable >>>> standoff”. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Has anyone else encountered his & what did you use? Where did you >>>> source this strap? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I remember seeing something like this in the fuzzy past & cannot >>>> recall where I saw it or what it was for. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for any suggestions. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ---------------- >>>> >>>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>>> >>>> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>>> >* >>>> >>>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>>> >>>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >>>> >>>> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >>>> >>>> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.or >>>> g >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>>> org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> *Will White* >>> Curriculum Developer >>> >>> [image: Inline image 3] >>> >>> e: will at solarenergy.org >>> w: www.solarenergy.org >>> p: 802-272-3092 >>> >>> PV Installation Professional >>> # 093006-34 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/mailli >>> st.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis >> t.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 17:39:18 2018 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:39:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Message-ID: <02D0EA30-2B56-4B0A-BD53-65DBA149BC55@gmail.com> Would #8 meet code? I thought that exposed ground wire had to be #6 minimum. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From dana at solarwork.com Thu Apr 19 17:48:09 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:48:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <02D0EA30-2B56-4B0A-BD53-65DBA149BC55@gmail.com> References: <02D0EA30-2B56-4B0A-BD53-65DBA149BC55@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000501d3d828$1bc19800$5344c800$@solarwork.com> The bare #8 is an EGC for #10 USE PV wire on the tracker to the array mounted combiner box. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Hilton Dier Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:39 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Would #8 meet code? I thought that exposed ground wire had to be #6 minimum. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 19 17:57:03 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 14:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <000501d3d828$1bc19800$5344c800$@solarwork.com> References: <02D0EA30-2B56-4B0A-BD53-65DBA149BC55@gmail.com> <000501d3d828$1bc19800$5344c800$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Dana, I understand the need to use #6 in exposed places on the earth. I have had inspectors require the same wire size that is used to the battery. I have had them require the same size as the array wiring. I have never seen them do what they are doing to you so thanks for the info.... Be well! --Dave > The bare #8 is an EGC for #10 USE PV wire on the tracker to the array > mounted combiner box. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of > Hilton Dier > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:39 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > Would #8 meet code? I thought that exposed ground wire had to be #6 > minimum. > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 19 19:05:02 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:05:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <000501d3d828$1bc19800$5344c800$@solarwork.com> References: <02D0EA30-2B56-4B0A-BD53-65DBA149BC55@gmail.com> <000501d3d828$1bc19800$5344c800$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <4dfa0952-03e7-f2f7-b7af-ef2fe3a7099b@solarray.com> On tracking arrays,  I have had both solid and stranded copper ground wire strain harden and break.  The cyclical motion will slowly work away at coarse cables. I've even seen solid #6 break off on just a tilt adjustable array. I now use a braided ground strap at least for the rack to pole ground connection.  This is the same strap that is used to ground generators and other moving electrical equipment. https://www.delcity.net/store/Ground-Straps/p_818655.h_818654 I isolate it at the connection to the aluminum with a sandwich of Stainless fender washers and a 1/4" bolt with toothed lock washer to bite into the AL, or it also works well folded in ground Lugs and buss bars. You can open up the weave of the braided copper in the middle to get the 1/4" bolt through.  I've checked these years later: no corrosion, wire not broken off at the connector. Ray On 4/19/18 3:48 PM, Dana wrote: > The bare #8 is an EGC for #10 USE PV wire on the tracker to the array mounted combiner box. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Hilton Dier > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:39 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > Would #8 meet code? I thought that exposed ground wire had to be #6 minimum. > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Apr 19 21:39:29 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:39:29 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Message-ID: <66yy11qqu1ekbr1t1dgmdtyc.1524188369085@email.android.com> Ray I have never (yet) had a wire failure in any of my trackers, l have always used PVC flex tubing connected at both ends with a long line that at any given point does not move much. I mainly use zomeworks passive sonhle axes trackers but have done it the same way with array technologes dual axes unitsJerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Ray Date: 4/19/18 1:05 PM (GMT-10:00) To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff On tracking arrays,  I have had both solid and stranded copper ground wire strain harden and break.  The cyclical motion will slowly work away at coarse cables. I've even seen solid #6 break off on just a tilt adjustable array. I now use a braided ground strap at least for the rack to pole ground connection.  This is the same strap that is used to ground generators and other moving electrical equipment. https://www.delcity.net/store/Ground-Straps/p_818655.h_818654 I isolate it at the connection to the aluminum with a sandwich of Stainless fender washers and a 1/4" bolt with toothed lock washer to bite into the AL, or it also works well folded in ground Lugs and buss bars. You can open up the weave of the braided copper in the middle to get the 1/4" bolt through.  I've checked these years later: no corrosion, wire not broken off at the connector. Ray On 4/19/18 3:48 PM, Dana wrote: > The bare #8 is an EGC for #10 USE PV wire on the tracker to the array mounted combiner box. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136                       www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Hilton Dier > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:39 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > Would #8 meet code? I thought that exposed ground wire had to be #6 minimum. > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 19 22:07:01 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 19:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <66yy11qqu1ekbr1t1dgmdtyc.1524188369085@email.android.com> References: <66yy11qqu1ekbr1t1dgmdtyc.1524188369085@email.android.com> Message-ID: <428bd5d4de0721e5b598bd897456cc40.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> No failures here either, always #10 thhn strands and a few from the old days (2001) that used marine wire at the pivot point! --Dave > > > Ray I have never (yet) had a wire failure in any of my trackers, l have > always used PVC flex tubing connected at both ends with a long line that > at any given point does not move much. I mainly use zomeworks passive > sonhle axes trackers but have done it the same way with array technologes > dual axes unitsJerry > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Ray > Date: 4/19/18 1:05 PM (GMT-10:00) > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > On tracking arrays,  I have had both solid and stranded copper ground > wire strain harden and break.  The cyclical motion will slowly work away > at coarse cables. I've even seen solid #6 break off on just a tilt > adjustable array. I now use a braided ground strap at least for the rack > to pole ground connection.  This is the same strap that is used to > ground generators and other moving electrical equipment. > > https://www.delcity.net/store/Ground-Straps/p_818655.h_818654 > > I isolate it at the connection to the aluminum with a sandwich of > Stainless fender washers and a 1/4" bolt with toothed lock washer to > bite into the AL, or it also works well folded in ground Lugs and buss > bars. You can open up the weave of the braided copper in the middle to > get the 1/4" bolt through.  I've checked these years later: no > corrosion, wire not broken off at the connector. > > Ray > > > On 4/19/18 3:48 PM, Dana wrote: >> The bare #8 is an EGC for #10 USE PV wire on the tracker to the array >> mounted combiner box. >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Dana Orzel                              >> Great Solar Works, Inc. >> C - 208.721.7003                       >> dana at solarwork.com >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 >> NABCEP # 051112-136                       >> www.solarwork.biz >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>  Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf >> Of Hilton Dier >> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:39 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff >> >> Would #8 meet code? I thought that exposed ground wire had to be #6 >> minimum. >> >> Hilton Dier III >> Renewable Energy Design >> Missisquoi River Hydro LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From dana at solarwork.com Fri Apr 20 08:55:15 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 06:55:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <4dfa0952-03e7-f2f7-b7af-ef2fe3a7099b@solarray.com> References: <02D0EA30-2B56-4B0A-BD53-65DBA149BC55@gmail.com> <000501d3d828$1bc19800$5344c800$@solarwork.com> <4dfa0952-03e7-f2f7-b7af-ef2fe3a7099b@solarray.com> Message-ID: <001601d3d8a6$d4f6a120$7ee3e360$@solarwork.com> For my array power & grounding drop, array to pole combiner, I use #6 or #8-SOWA cord with [Chinese fingers] strain relief. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 5:05 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff On tracking arrays, I have had both solid and stranded copper ground wire strain harden and break. The cyclical motion will slowly work away at coarse cables. I've even seen solid #6 break off on just a tilt adjustable array. I now use a braided ground strap at least for the rack to pole ground connection. This is the same strap that is used to ground generators and other moving electrical equipment. https://www.delcity.net/store/Ground-Straps/p_818655.h_818654 I isolate it at the connection to the aluminum with a sandwich of Stainless fender washers and a 1/4" bolt with toothed lock washer to bite into the AL, or it also works well folded in ground Lugs and buss bars. You can open up the weave of the braided copper in the middle to get the 1/4" bolt through. I've checked these years later: no corrosion, wire not broken off at the connector. Ray On 4/19/18 3:48 PM, Dana wrote: > The bare #8 is an EGC for #10 USE PV wire on the tracker to the array mounted combiner box. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On > Behalf Of Hilton Dier > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:39 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > Would #8 meet code? I thought that exposed ground wire had to be #6 minimum. > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From dana at solarwork.com Fri Apr 20 09:00:23 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 07:00:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: References: <02D0EA30-2B56-4B0A-BD53-65DBA149BC55@gmail.com> <000501d3d828$1bc19800$5344c800$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <001701d3d8a7$957a3ab0$c06eb010$@solarwork.com> That makes two of us that would like to understand, why #6? I think it dates to early grounding with grid tie systems. I remember back to 20+ years ago when the code required that the EGC was the size of the largest conductor which with 24 volt inverters was OOOO. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Dana, I understand the need to use #6 in exposed places on the earth. I have had inspectors require the same wire size that is used to the battery. I have had them require the same size as the array wiring. I have never seen them do what they are doing to you so thanks for the info.... Be well! --Dave > The bare #8 is an EGC for #10 USE PV wire on the tracker to the array > mounted combiner box. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On > Behalf Of Hilton Dier > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:39 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > Would #8 meet code? I thought that exposed ground wire had to be #6 > minimum. > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Apr 20 11:23:11 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 11:23:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <001701d3d8a7$957a3ab0$c06eb010$@solarwork.com> References: <02D0EA30-2B56-4B0A-BD53-65DBA149BC55@gmail.com> <000501d3d828$1bc19800$5344c800$@solarwork.com> <001701d3d8a7$957a3ab0$c06eb010$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <46658f22-635f-ebe9-cb93-a7b45be533fa@entech-engineering.com> I just got back from being out of the office for a week+ and just read a few ofthese. I hope this is not redundant. 6AWG is the size that meets several tests for exposed installations.By that I mean that it is not protected.  If you arerunning the array EGC exposed, you would use at least 6AWG depending upon the size of the overcurrent protection device towards the charge controller/array disconnect. 250.120(C) and T250.122. We have run into the conductor covering rating problemtoo. #4 can be color coded so you can use black conductor. A reasonable inspector should allow this for 6 since a lot of the non black coverings are not holding up as well to sunlight as black.  I think NEC2017 takes this into consideration and allows you to color code because of the superior performance of black coverings. Chris On 4/20/2018 9:00 AM, Dana wrote: > That makes two of us that would like to understand, why #6? I think it dates to early grounding with grid tie systems. > I remember back to 20+ years ago when the code required that the EGC was the size of the largest conductor which with 24 volt inverters was OOOO. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:57 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > Dana, I understand the need to use #6 in exposed places on the earth. I have had inspectors require the same wire size that is used to the battery. I have had them require the same size as the array wiring. I have never seen them do what they are doing to you so thanks for the info.... Be well! --Dave >> The bare #8 is an EGC for #10 USE PV wire on the tracker to the array >> mounted combiner box. >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>  Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches On >> Behalf Of Hilton Dier >> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:39 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff >> >> Would #8 meet code? I thought that exposed ground wire had to be #6 >> minimum. >> >> Hilton Dier III >> Renewable Energy Design >> Missisquoi River Hydro LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Apr 20 13:28:12 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 11:28:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Message-ID: <004b01d3d8cc$f699f810$e3cde830$@solarwork.com> Reasonable inspector, here? You have no idea. The plans examiner is the first link in the process here in Idaho, he is; by the book, crossing t’s & dotting I’s and has a very strict & narrow interpretation of the code. That said he is very helpful and a nice guy. It’s an Idaho thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of cwarfel Sent: Friday, April 20, 2018 9:23 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff I just got back from being out of the office for a week+ and just read a few of these. I hope this is not redundant. 6AWG is the size that meets several tests for exposed installations. By that I mean that it is not protected. If you are running the array EGC exposed, you would use at least 6AWG depending upon the size of the overcurrent protection device towards the charge controller/array disconnect. 250.120(C) and T250.122. We have run into the conductor covering rating problem too. #4 can be color coded so you can use black conductor. A reasonable inspector should allow this for 6 since a lot of the non black coverings are not holding up as well to sunlight as black. I think NEC2017 takes this into consideration and allows you to color code because of the superior performance of black coverings. Chris On 4/20/2018 9:00 AM, Dana wrote: That makes two of us that would like to understand, why #6? I think it dates to early grounding with grid tie systems. I remember back to 20+ years ago when the code required that the EGC was the size of the largest conductor which with 24 volt inverters was OOOO. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Dana, I understand the need to use #6 in exposed places on the earth. I have had inspectors require the same wire size that is used to the battery. I have had them require the same size as the array wiring. I have never seen them do what they are doing to you so thanks for the info.... Be well! --Dave The bare #8 is an EGC for #10 USE PV wire on the tracker to the array mounted combiner box. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Hilton Dier Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:39 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Would #8 meet code? I thought that exposed ground wire had to be #6 minimum. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist .html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist .html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401)466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5314 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Apr 20 13:46:24 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 11:46:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <4dfa0952-03e7-f2f7-b7af-ef2fe3a7099b@solarray.com> References: <02D0EA30-2B56-4B0A-BD53-65DBA149BC55@gmail.com> <000501d3d828$1bc19800$5344c800$@solarwork.com> <4dfa0952-03e7-f2f7-b7af-ef2fe3a7099b@solarray.com> Message-ID: <006701d3d8cf$8180d410$84827c30$@solarwork.com> Ray, In Idaho if it does not have UL attached it is not acceptable. Personally I think this would be just fine & a step up maybe with a WEEB top & bottom involved. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 5:05 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff On tracking arrays, I have had both solid and stranded copper ground wire strain harden and break. The cyclical motion will slowly work away at coarse cables. I've even seen solid #6 break off on just a tilt adjustable array. I now use a braided ground strap at least for the rack to pole ground connection. This is the same strap that is used to ground generators and other moving electrical equipment. https://www.delcity.net/store/Ground-Straps/p_818655.h_818654 I isolate it at the connection to the aluminum with a sandwich of Stainless fender washers and a 1/4" bolt with toothed lock washer to bite into the AL, or it also works well folded in ground Lugs and buss bars. You can open up the weave of the braided copper in the middle to get the 1/4" bolt through. I've checked these years later: no corrosion, wire not broken off at the connector. Ray On 4/19/18 3:48 PM, Dana wrote: > The bare #8 is an EGC for #10 USE PV wire on the tracker to the array mounted combiner box. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On > Behalf Of Hilton Dier > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:39 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > Would #8 meet code? I thought that exposed ground wire had to be #6 minimum. > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From ray at solarray.com Fri Apr 20 14:29:32 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 12:29:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <006701d3d8cf$8180d410$84827c30$@solarwork.com> References: <02D0EA30-2B56-4B0A-BD53-65DBA149BC55@gmail.com> <000501d3d828$1bc19800$5344c800$@solarwork.com> <4dfa0952-03e7-f2f7-b7af-ef2fe3a7099b@solarray.com> <006701d3d8cf$8180d410$84827c30$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <1d7cb054-8447-1801-8b51-3f2e2e2b6d1d@solarray.com> I have never seen any bare ground wire with a UL stamp on it. The braided strap we use is rated as 4 AWG.  Its also tinned, so its more corrosion resistant.  Further, I think everyone (including your inspector) needs to read 690.31(E); you'll see more flexible cables are required on trackers.  PV wire is acceptable. -Ray On 4/20/18 11:46 AM, Dana wrote: > Ray, > In Idaho if it does not have UL attached it is not acceptable. Personally I think this would be just fine & a step up maybe with a WEEB top & bottom involved. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 5:05 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > On tracking arrays, I have had both solid and stranded copper ground wire strain harden and break. The cyclical motion will slowly work away at coarse cables. I've even seen solid #6 break off on just a tilt adjustable array. I now use a braided ground strap at least for the rack to pole ground connection. This is the same strap that is used to ground generators and other moving electrical equipment. > > https://www.delcity.net/store/Ground-Straps/p_818655.h_818654 > > I isolate it at the connection to the aluminum with a sandwich of Stainless fender washers and a 1/4" bolt with toothed lock washer to bite into the AL, or it also works well folded in ground Lugs and buss bars. You can open up the weave of the braided copper in the middle to get the 1/4" bolt through. I've checked these years later: no corrosion, wire not broken off at the connector. > > Ray > > > On 4/19/18 3:48 PM, Dana wrote: >> The bare #8 is an EGC for #10 USE PV wire on the tracker to the array mounted combiner box. >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>  Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches On >> Behalf Of Hilton Dier >> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:39 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff >> >> Would #8 meet code? I thought that exposed ground wire had to be #6 minimum. >> >> Hilton Dier III >> Renewable Energy Design >> Missisquoi River Hydro LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Apr 20 14:38:48 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 14:38:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <004b01d3d8cc$f699f810$e3cde830$@solarwork.com> References: <004b01d3d8cc$f699f810$e3cde830$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <2a9e8a20-3764-02de-33f3-d1b875e232f4@entech-engineering.com> It's just not Idaho. I was just asked about NEC PV interpretation for a large city on the East coast. Same problem. Narrowly (and incorrectly) interpreting the grounding requirements. It's probably nervous inspectors who feel their neck is on the line, and are interpreting defensively thinking that is the safest thing for them to do. We have taught a lot of Code officials and they really feel exposed when it comes to PV. The key to me is just taking time, if the Building Official has it, to go over the NEC sections and their relevance. It has to be made understandable and easy. These people are suppose to approve everything from house wiring to appliances to pools, to anything that requires a permit. It is just too much for almost everyone to understand completely. Look at all the questions we have with 690 and 705 alone Chris. On 4/20/2018 1:28 PM, Dana wrote: > > Reasonable inspector, here? You have no idea. > > The plans examiner is the first link in the process here in Idaho, he > is; by the book, crossing t’s & dotting I’s and has a very strict & > narrow interpretation of the code. That said he is very helpful and a > nice guy. It’s an Idaho thing. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.com* > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:*RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *cwarfel > *Sent:* Friday, April 20, 2018 9:23 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > I just got back from being out of the office for a week+ and just read > a few of these. I hope this is not redundant. > > 6AWG is the size that meets several tests for exposed installations. > By that I mean that it is not protected.  If you are running the array > EGC exposed, you would use at least 6AWG depending upon the size of > the overcurrent protection device towards the charge controller/array > disconnect. 250.120(C) and T250.122. > > We have run into the conductor covering rating problem too. #4 can be > color coded so you can use black conductor. A reasonable inspector > should allow this for 6 since a lot of the non black coverings are not > holding up as well to sunlight as black.  I think NEC2017 takes this > into consideration and allows you to color code because of the > superior performance of black coverings. > > Chris > > On 4/20/2018 9:00 AM, Dana wrote: > > That makes two of us that would like to understand, why #6? I think it dates to early grounding with grid tie systems. > > I remember back to 20+ years ago when the code required that the EGC was the size of the largest conductor which with 24 volt inverters was OOOO. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > C - 208.721.7003dana at solarwork.com > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136www.solarwork.biz > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:57 PM > > To: RE-wrenches > > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > Dana, I understand the need to use #6 in exposed places on the earth. I have had inspectors require the same wire size that is used to the battery. I have had them require the same size as the array wiring. I have never seen them do what they are doing to you so thanks for the info....  Be well!  --Dave > > The bare #8 is an EGC for #10 USE PV wire on the tracker to the array > > mounted combiner box. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > C - 208.721.7003dana at solarwork.com > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136www.solarwork.biz > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches > On > > Behalf Of Hilton Dier > > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:39 PM > > To:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > Would #8 meet code? I thought that exposed ground wire had to be #6 > > minimum. > > Hilton Dier III > > Renewable Energy Design > > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > > e-mailoffgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, PE >        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                (401)466-8978 > > > EEI logo > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5314 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Apr 20 15:00:33 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 13:00:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <2a9e8a20-3764-02de-33f3-d1b875e232f4@entech-engineering.com> References: <004b01d3d8cc$f699f810$e3cde830$@solarwork.com> <2a9e8a20-3764-02de-33f3-d1b875e232f4@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: I've dealt with tough inspectors in many jurisdictions.  I seem to spend 50% of my time doing education.  I do not just take the AHJs word as gospel and blindly follow.  I meet with them, sit down with the code and we work it out.  I am not afraid to question or protest a decision.  After a few years, the inspectors know I'm not trying to get away with sub standard work, and that we all want the installation to be done right. -Ray On 4/20/18 12:38 PM, cwarfel wrote: > It's just not Idaho. I was just asked about NEC PV interpretation for > a large city on the East coast. Same problem. Narrowly (and > incorrectly) interpreting the grounding requirements. > > It's probably nervous inspectors who feel their neck is on the line, > and are interpreting defensively thinking that is the safest thing for > them to do. We have taught a lot of Code officials and they really > feel exposed when it comes to PV. > > The key to me is just taking time, if the Building Official has it, to > go over the NEC sections and their relevance. It has to be made > understandable and easy. These people are suppose to approve > everything from house wiring to appliances to pools, to anything that > requires a permit. It is just too much for almost everyone to > understand completely. Look at all the questions we have with 690 and > 705 alone > Chris. > > > On 4/20/2018 1:28 PM, Dana wrote: >> >> Reasonable inspector, here? You have no idea. >> >> The plans examiner is the first link in the process here in Idaho, he >> is; by the book, crossing t’s & dotting I’s and has a very strict & >> narrow interpretation of the code. That said he is very helpful and a >> nice guy. It’s an Idaho thing. >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com* >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> >> _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ >> >> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *cwarfel >> *Sent:* Friday, April 20, 2018 9:23 AM >> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff >> >> I just got back from being out of the office for a week+ and just >> read a few of these. I hope this is not redundant. >> >> 6AWG is the size that meets several tests for exposed installations. >> By that I mean that it is not protected. If you are running the array >> EGC exposed, you would use at least 6AWG depending upon the size of >> the overcurrent protection device towards the charge controller/array >> disconnect. 250.120(C) and T250.122. >> >> We have run into the conductor covering rating problem too. #4 can be >> color coded so you can use black conductor. A reasonable inspector >> should allow this for 6 since a lot of the non black coverings are >> not holding up as well to sunlight as black.  I think NEC2017 takes >> this into consideration and allows you to color code because of the >> superior performance of black coverings. >> >> Chris >> >> On 4/20/2018 9:00 AM, Dana wrote: >> >> That makes two of us that would like to understand, why #6? I think it dates to early grounding with grid tie systems. >> >> I remember back to 20+ years ago when the code required that the EGC was the size of the largest conductor which with 24 volt inverters was OOOO. >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> C - 208.721.7003dana at solarwork.com >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136www.solarwork.biz >> >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >> P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: RE-wrenches >> On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:57 PM >> >> To: RE-wrenches >> >> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff >> >> Dana, I understand the need to use #6 in exposed places on the earth. I have had inspectors require the same wire size that is used to the battery. I have had them require the same size as the array wiring. I have never seen them do what they are doing to you so thanks for the info....  Be well!  --Dave >> >> The bare #8 is an EGC for #10 USE PV wire on the tracker to the array >> >> mounted combiner box. >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> C - 208.721.7003dana at solarwork.com >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136www.solarwork.biz >> >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >>  Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: RE-wrenches >> On >> >> Behalf Of Hilton Dier >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:39 PM >> >> To:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff >> >> Would #8 meet code? I thought that exposed ground wire had to be #6 >> >> minimum. >> >> Hilton Dier III >> >> Renewable Energy Design >> >> Missisquoi River Hydro LLC >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist >> >> .html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> >> e-mailoffgridsolar at sti.net >> >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> >> Christopher Warfel, PE >>        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>                (401)466-8978 >> >> >> EEI logo >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -- > >          Christopher Warfel, PE >        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                (401)466-8978 > > EEI logo > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5314 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Apr 21 12:41:51 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 10:41:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d3d8cc$f699f810$e3cde830$@solarwork.com> <2a9e8a20-3764-02de-33f3-d1b875e232f4@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <000201d3d98f$ac568b60$0503a220$@solarwork.com> Hey Ray, I completely agree with you. I had an inspector in CO that was know in the early days of solar among the manufacturers as that SOB in CO. I finally called his supervisor after several failed meetings where I felt fairly sure that I was interpreting on the side of safety and the code. His supervisor agreed with me & I got a call from the inspector asking why I called his boss & why couldn’t we have discussed this? I replied that I had tried. We had a completely positive relationship after that call. It turns out his home life was hell, he had a drinking problem, and his teenage daughter was pregnant. He turned a corner after that and a few years later retired. He is a happier man today. People can change, and it is one of the hardest things we all endure. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Friday, April 20, 2018 1:01 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff I've dealt with tough inspectors in many jurisdictions. I seem to spend 50% of my time doing education. I do not just take the AHJs word as gospel and blindly follow. I meet with them, sit down with the code and we work it out. I am not afraid to question or protest a decision. After a few years, the inspectors know I'm not trying to get away with sub standard work, and that we all want the installation to be done right. -Ray On 4/20/18 12:38 PM, cwarfel wrote: It's just not Idaho. I was just asked about NEC PV interpretation for a large city on the East coast. Same problem. Narrowly (and incorrectly) interpreting the grounding requirements. It's probably nervous inspectors who feel their neck is on the line, and are interpreting defensively thinking that is the safest thing for them to do. We have taught a lot of Code officials and they really feel exposed when it comes to PV. The key to me is just taking time, if the Building Official has it, to go over the NEC sections and their relevance. It has to be made understandable and easy. These people are suppose to approve everything from house wiring to appliances to pools, to anything that requires a permit. It is just too much for almost everyone to understand completely. Look at all the questions we have with 690 and 705 alone Chris. On 4/20/2018 1:28 PM, Dana wrote: Reasonable inspector, here? You have no idea. The plans examiner is the first link in the process here in Idaho, he is; by the book, crossing t’s & dotting I’s and has a very strict & narrow interpretation of the code. That said he is very helpful and a nice guy. It’s an Idaho thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of cwarfel Sent: Friday, April 20, 2018 9:23 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff I just got back from being out of the office for a week+ and just read a few of these. I hope this is not redundant. 6AWG is the size that meets several tests for exposed installations. By that I mean that it is not protected. If you are running the array EGC exposed, you would use at least 6AWG depending upon the size of the overcurrent protection device towards the charge controller/array disconnect. 250.120(C) and T250.122. We have run into the conductor covering rating problem too. #4 can be color coded so you can use black conductor. A reasonable inspector should allow this for 6 since a lot of the non black coverings are not holding up as well to sunlight as black. I think NEC2017 takes this into consideration and allows you to color code because of the superior performance of black coverings. Chris On 4/20/2018 9:00 AM, Dana wrote: That makes two of us that would like to understand, why #6? I think it dates to early grounding with grid tie systems. I remember back to 20+ years ago when the code required that the EGC was the size of the largest conductor which with 24 volt inverters was OOOO. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Dana, I understand the need to use #6 in exposed places on the earth. I have had inspectors require the same wire size that is used to the battery. I have had them require the same size as the array wiring. I have never seen them do what they are doing to you so thanks for the info.... Be well! --Dave The bare #8 is an EGC for #10 USE PV wire on the tracker to the array mounted combiner box. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Hilton Dier Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:39 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff Would #8 meet code? I thought that exposed ground wire had to be #6 minimum. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist .html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist .html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401)466-8978 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401)466-8978 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5314 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5314 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Apr 21 13:50:47 2018 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 13:50:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff In-Reply-To: <000201d3d98f$ac568b60$0503a220$@solarwork.com> References: <004b01d3d8cc$f699f810$e3cde830$@solarwork.com> <2a9e8a20-3764-02de-33f3-d1b875e232f4@entech-engineering.com> <000201d3d98f$ac568b60$0503a220$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I discovered last year that there is a process for formal and informal interpretations from Florida's Building Officials Association (BOAF) and BOs are obligated and strongly encouraged, respectively, to follow their opinions. The process takes a little time but has proven to be very effective. If your state has one, I would encourage you to get familiar with the process. We recently had a ruling in our favor in less than 30 days for use of Romex in the attic for AC microinverter circuits and also to omit labeling on these circuits. Essentially it asked if 690.31(E) (2011) applied to inverter output circuits. An "overzealous" plans review and inspector was causing us headaches. The BO, who happened to be on the association board but for a different discipline, gladly accepted the informal interpretation in our favor before it was even published and directed his reviewers and inspectors to approve our request! Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 12:41 PM, Dana wrote: > Hey Ray, > > I completely agree with you. I had an inspector in CO that was know in the > early days of solar among the manufacturers as that SOB in CO. > > I finally called his supervisor after several failed meetings where I felt > fairly sure that I was interpreting on the side of safety and the code. His > supervisor agreed with me & I got a call from the inspector asking why I > called his boss & why couldn’t we have discussed this? > > > > I replied that I had tried. We had a completely positive relationship > after that call. It turns out his home life was hell, he had a drinking > problem, and his teenage daughter was pregnant. He turned a corner after > that and a few years later retired. He is a happier man today. > > > > People can change, and it is one of the hardest things we all endure. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Ray > *Sent:* Friday, April 20, 2018 1:01 PM > > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > > > I've dealt with tough inspectors in many jurisdictions. I seem to spend > 50% of my time doing education. I do not just take the AHJs word as gospel > and blindly follow. I meet with them, sit down with the code and we work > it out. I am not afraid to question or protest a decision. After a few > years, the inspectors know I'm not trying to get away with sub standard > work, and that we all want the installation to be done right. > > -Ray > > > > On 4/20/18 12:38 PM, cwarfel wrote: > > It's just not Idaho. I was just asked about NEC PV interpretation for a > large city on the East coast. Same problem. Narrowly (and incorrectly) > interpreting the grounding requirements. > > It's probably nervous inspectors who feel their neck is on the line, and > are interpreting defensively thinking that is the safest thing for them to > do. We have taught a lot of Code officials and they really feel exposed > when it comes to PV. > > The key to me is just taking time, if the Building Official has it, to go > over the NEC sections and their relevance. It has to be made understandable > and easy. These people are suppose to approve everything from house wiring > to appliances to pools, to anything that requires a permit. It is just too > much for almost everyone to understand completely. Look at all the > questions we have with 690 and 705 alone > Chris. > > On 4/20/2018 1:28 PM, Dana wrote: > > Reasonable inspector, here? You have no idea. > > The plans examiner is the first link in the process here in Idaho, he is; > by the book, crossing t’s & dotting I’s and has a very strict & narrow > interpretation of the code. That said he is very helpful and a nice guy. > It’s an Idaho thing. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf Of *cwarfel > *Sent:* Friday, April 20, 2018 9:23 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > > > I just got back from being out of the office for a week+ and just read a > few of these. I hope this is not redundant. > > 6AWG is the size that meets several tests for exposed installations. By > that I mean that it is not protected. If you are running the array EGC > exposed, you would use at least 6AWG depending upon the size of the > overcurrent protection device towards the charge controller/array > disconnect. 250.120(C) and T250.122. > > We have run into the conductor covering rating problem too. #4 can be > color coded so you can use black conductor. A reasonable inspector should > allow this for 6 since a lot of the non black coverings are not holding up > as well to sunlight as black. I think NEC2017 takes this into > consideration and allows you to color code because of the superior > performance of black coverings. > > Chris > > > > On 4/20/2018 9:00 AM, Dana wrote: > > That makes two of us that would like to understand, why #6? I think it dates to early grounding with grid tie systems. > > I remember back to 20+ years ago when the code required that the EGC was the size of the largest conductor which with 24 volt inverters was OOOO. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:57 PM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > > > Dana, I understand the need to use #6 in exposed places on the earth. I have had inspectors require the same wire size that is used to the battery. I have had them require the same size as the array wiring. I have never seen them do what they are doing to you so thanks for the info.... Be well! --Dave > > The bare #8 is an EGC for #10 USE PV wire on the tracker to the array > > mounted combiner box. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > ï Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches On > > Behalf Of Hilton Dier > > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:39 PM > > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff > > > > Would #8 meet code? I thought that exposed ground wire had to be #6 > > minimum. > > > > Hilton Dier III > > Renewable Energy Design > > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > > .html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > > .html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > > > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401)466-8978 > > > [image: EEI logo] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > > > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401)466-8978 > > > [image: EEI logo] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5314 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5314 bytes Desc: not available URL: From aram at aramsolar.com Sun Apr 22 02:12:45 2018 From: aram at aramsolar.com (aram aramsolar.com) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 06:12:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking ID ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <465811A4-9B1B-4329-8C18-4C9A1D9615E7@aramsolar.com> DPW Aram On Apr 19, 2018, at 9:53 AM, Lou Russo > wrote: Aloha All, Can anyone out there identify the racking system in the attached photo? Thanks in advance. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Mon Apr 23 14:33:57 2018 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 14:33:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chevy Bolt Message-ID: I have a customer with a 20-year-old modified sine wave inverter that has been no issue at all until recently when he arrived from New York City with his Chevy bolt Obviously the Bolt will not tolerate the modified sine wave and we’re discussing upgrading and we were wondering if the magnum inverter charger would work in this situation? Thought that I would check with the knowledge base ! Thanks Bob Ellison From ray at solarray.com Mon Apr 23 14:45:00 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 12:45:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chevy Bolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pretty sure the Magnum will work, since I have a customer with a Chevy Volt running on old Trace SW4024 inverters.  Not mod sine, but they're not near as clean as the Magnums either. -Ray On 4/23/18 12:33 PM, RE Ellison wrote: > I have a customer with a 20-year-old modified sine wave inverter that has been no issue at all until recently when he arrived from New York City with his Chevy bolt > > Obviously the Bolt will not tolerate the modified sine wave and we’re discussing upgrading and we were wondering if the magnum inverter charger would work in this situation? > > Thought that I would check with the knowledge base ! > > Thanks > Bob Ellison > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Apr 23 15:04:14 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 12:04:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chevy Bolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01121681-0408-43FA-A5BC-8BF7F3DE08DC@starlightsolar.com> Hey Bob, It may not be that a modified square wave is causing the problem but rather your MSW. At 20 years old, I bet you have ringing on the waveform of your inverter (voltage overshoot during switching). Look at it with a scope. I have seen 10-12 year old inverters hitting 300+ volts PP on the spikes. Some equipment will see that voltage and prevent operation and other equipment will hum along (pun intended) blissfully. We have had a couple of problems with magnum inverters working with specific loads. It would be best to test one before committing to it. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 23, 2018, at 11:33 AM, RE Ellison wrote: I have a customer with a 20-year-old modified sine wave inverter that has been no issue at all until recently when he arrived from New York City with his Chevy bolt Obviously the Bolt will not tolerate the modified sine wave and we’re discussing upgrading and we were wondering if the magnum inverter charger would work in this situation? Thought that I would check with the knowledge base ! Thanks Bob Ellison From august at luminalt.com Mon Apr 23 15:12:48 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 12:12:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chevy Bolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As a separate item to check, make sure the grounding electrode system and neutral are all up to shape at the site. We've had problems with this with various EVs giving an error when atempting to charge. August Luminalt On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 11:45 AM, Ray wrote: > Pretty sure the Magnum will work, since I have a customer with a Chevy > Volt running on old Trace SW4024 inverters. Not mod sine, but they're not > near as clean as the Magnums either. > > -Ray > > > On 4/23/18 12:33 PM, RE Ellison wrote: > >> I have a customer with a 20-year-old modified sine wave inverter that has >> been no issue at all until recently when he arrived from New York City with >> his Chevy bolt >> >> Obviously the Bolt will not tolerate the modified sine wave and we’re >> discussing upgrading and we were wondering if the magnum inverter charger >> would work in this situation? >> >> Thought that I would check with the knowledge base ! >> >> Thanks >> Bob Ellison >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Apr 23 19:33:29 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 16:33:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chevy Bolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been charging our Toyota RAV4 EV for the last 5 years on a Radian, ocassionally on a couple Outback FX's also. Bill Feather River Solar Electric On 4/23/2018 12:12 PM, August Goers wrote: > As a separate item to check, make sure the grounding electrode system > and neutral are all up to shape at the site. We've had problems with > this with various EVs giving an error when atempting to charge. > > August > Luminalt > > On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 11:45 AM, Ray > wrote: > > Pretty sure the Magnum will work, since I have a customer with a > Chevy Volt running on old Trace SW4024 inverters.  Not mod sine, > but they're not near as clean as the Magnums either. > > -Ray > > > On 4/23/18 12:33 PM, RE Ellison wrote: > > I have a customer with a 20-year-old modified sine wave > inverter that has been no issue at all until recently when he > arrived from New York City with his Chevy bolt > > Obviously the Bolt will not tolerate the modified sine wave > and we’re discussing upgrading and we were wondering if the > magnum inverter charger would work in this situation? > > Thought that I would check with the knowledge base ! > > Thanks > Bob Ellison > _______________________________________________ > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Apr 24 10:20:50 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 10:20:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chevy Bolt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We have charged an EV on a Magnum 4024 PAE. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: Cc: Sent:Mon, 23 Apr 2018 14:33:57 -0400 Subject:[RE-wrenches] Chevy Bolt I have a customer with a 20-year-old modified sine wave inverter that has been no issue at all until recently when he arrived from New York City with his Chevy bolt Obviously the Bolt will not tolerate the modified sine wave and we’re discussing upgrading and we were wondering if the magnum inverter charger would work in this situation? Thought that I would check with the knowledge base ! Thanks Bob Ellison _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar at 4fast.net Tue Apr 24 10:35:25 2018 From: solar at 4fast.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 07:35:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chevy Bolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Krikey! Can we all please stop using the term “modified sine wave”? It’s just marketing BS and y’all know it. Anyone who has looked at that waveform on an oscilloscope can plaining see that it is a modified square wave. When we use the BS marketing term we are lying to our clients and to ourselves. Bob-O On Apr 23, 2018, at 11:33 AM, RE Ellison wrote: I have a customer with a 20-year-old modified sine wave inverter that has been no issue at all until recently when he arrived from New York City with his Chevy bolt Obviously the Bolt will not tolerate the modified sine wave and we’re discussing upgrading and we were wondering if the magnum inverter charger would work in this situation? Thought that I would check with the knowledge base ! Thanks Bob Ellison _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 10:57:17 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 09:57:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chevy Bolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wonder what is the attempted charge rate? Depending upon the year the Volt can draw 3.3 kW or 6.6 kW the EV charge station will also have an effect. If it is a level one charger 120 Volt input the car will draw 1.5 kW up to 1.9 kW. I have charged a Leaf on a level one charger, about 1.5 kW using a Magnum 4448 PAE no problems. But I have not tried a Level two charger. Does anyone know if the onboard car charger uses "sine wave clipping" SCR technology? to control battery charging? On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 9:20 AM, wrote: > We have charged an EV on a Magnum 4024 PAE. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > "RE-wrenches" > > To: > > Cc: > > Sent: > Mon, 23 Apr 2018 14:33:57 -0400 > Subject: > [RE-wrenches] Chevy Bolt > > > I have a customer with a 20-year-old modified sine wave inverter that has > been no issue at all until recently when he arrived from New York City with > his Chevy bolt > > Obviously the Bolt will not tolerate the modified sine wave and we’re > discussing upgrading and we were wondering if the magnum inverter charger > would work in this situation? > > Thought that I would check with the knowledge base ! > > Thanks > Bob Ellison > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 11:39:32 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 10:39:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chevy Bolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just spoke with my ev car expert, the onboard charger controls charge by he says PWM there has always been a problem with PWM AC control on modified square wave inverters. Causing failures when the switching is coincidental. I forgot the exact reason but I have failed equipment using a modified square wave inverter on portable tool charging equipment. On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Ray wrote: > Pretty sure the Magnum will work, since I have a customer with a Chevy > Volt running on old Trace SW4024 inverters. Not mod sine, but they're not > near as clean as the Magnums either. > > -Ray > > > On 4/23/18 12:33 PM, RE Ellison wrote: > >> I have a customer with a 20-year-old modified sine wave inverter that has >> been no issue at all until recently when he arrived from New York City with >> his Chevy bolt >> >> Obviously the Bolt will not tolerate the modified sine wave and we’re >> discussing upgrading and we were wondering if the magnum inverter charger >> would work in this situation? >> >> Thought that I would check with the knowledge base ! >> >> Thanks >> Bob Ellison >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Apr 24 11:54:03 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 11:54:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chevy Bolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have successfully charged a Chevy Volt with a Radian 8048 set up in an off-grid system. The client has since sold the volt. It was terrible in the snow of our Western NY winters, LOL! Christopher Schaefer Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > I just spoke with my ev car expert, the onboard charger controls charge by > he says PWM there has always been a problem with PWM AC control on modified > square wave inverters. Causing failures when the switching is > coincidental. I forgot the exact reason but I have failed equipment using > a modified square wave inverter on portable tool charging equipment. > > On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Ray wrote: > >> Pretty sure the Magnum will work, since I have a customer with a Chevy >> Volt running on old Trace SW4024 inverters. Not mod sine, but they're not >> near as clean as the Magnums either. >> >> -Ray >> >> >> >> On 4/23/18 12:33 PM, RE Ellison wrote: >> >>> I have a customer with a 20-year-old modified sine wave inverter that >>> has been no issue at all until recently when he arrived from New York City >>> with his Chevy bolt >>> >>> Obviously the Bolt will not tolerate the modified sine wave and we’re >>> discussing upgrading and we were wondering if the magnum inverter charger >>> would work in this situation? >>> >>> Thought that I would check with the knowledge base ! >>> >>> Thanks >>> Bob Ellison >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >>> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 12:23:51 2018 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 12:23:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chevy Bolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My apologies Bob been using it for years ! but not many of them left anyway Bob > On Apr 24, 2018, at 10:35 AM, Bob-O Schultze wrote: > > Krikey! > Can we all please stop using the term “modified sine wave”? It’s just marketing BS and y’all know it. Anyone who has looked at that waveform on an oscilloscope can plaining see that it is a modified square wave. When we use the BS marketing term we are lying to our clients and to ourselves. > > Bob-O > > On Apr 23, 2018, at 11:33 AM, RE Ellison wrote: > > I have a customer with a 20-year-old modified sine wave inverter that has been no issue at all until recently when he arrived from New York City with his Chevy bolt > > Obviously the Bolt will not tolerate the modified sine wave and we’re discussing upgrading and we were wondering if the magnum inverter charger would work in this situation? > > Thought that I would check with the knowledge base ! > > Thanks > Bob Ellison > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 11:45:25 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 08:45:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chevy Bolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E218CF8-0082-4E14-BC45-5629D46A30FC@gmail.com> Hi Darryl It has to do with the zero point crossing. With pure sine wave, it crosses almost vertical angle so no time spent there. Mod square wave usually has a flat crossing, totally screws certain things up. Jay Peltz power. > On Apr 24, 2018, at 8:39 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > > I just spoke with my ev car expert, the onboard charger controls charge by he says PWM there has always been a problem with PWM AC control on modified square wave inverters. Causing failures when the switching is coincidental. I forgot the exact reason but I have failed equipment using a modified square wave inverter on portable tool charging equipment. > >> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Ray wrote: >> Pretty sure the Magnum will work, since I have a customer with a Chevy Volt running on old Trace SW4024 inverters. Not mod sine, but they're not near as clean as the Magnums either. >> >> -Ray >> >> >>> On 4/23/18 12:33 PM, RE Ellison wrote: >>> I have a customer with a 20-year-old modified sine wave inverter that has been no issue at all until recently when he arrived from New York City with his Chevy bolt >>> >>> Obviously the Bolt will not tolerate the modified sine wave and we’re discussing upgrading and we were wondering if the magnum inverter charger would work in this situation? >>> >>> Thought that I would check with the knowledge base ! >>> >>> Thanks >>> Bob Ellison >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 24 17:51:53 2018 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 11:51:53 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking ID ? In-Reply-To: <465811A4-9B1B-4329-8C18-4C9A1D9615E7@aramsolar.com> References: <465811A4-9B1B-4329-8C18-4C9A1D9615E7@aramsolar.com> Message-ID: Looks like this one. http://preformed.com/solar/residential/roof-mounts/power-rail-mounting-system-prm *James B. Rudolph* *Hawaii Unifed* *Director of Energy* *ES Electrician # 10816* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* *808.476.6754* On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 8:12 PM, aram aramsolar.com wrote: > DPW > > Aram > > On Apr 19, 2018, at 9:53 AM, Lou Russo wrote: > > Aloha All, > > Can anyone out there identify the racking system in the attached photo? > > Thanks in advance. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From corey at joule-energy.com Wed Apr 25 15:23:54 2018 From: corey at joule-energy.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:23:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1,000 volt-rated connectors Message-ID: To continue this thread... Does anyone know of any 1,500 volt-rated insulated connectors, preferably similar to a GTAP or Easy-Splice? We are looking for something that can be used to splice #6 PV Wire and can be installed within the array. -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:58 PM, wrote: > > > Aloha. > > > > Does anyone know of any 1,000 volt-rated insulated connectors? > > > > I checked the Polaris line but they're only rated to 600V. > > > > Mahalo, > > marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Apr 25 15:36:43 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 13:36:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off Grid Inverter? Message-ID: Greetings Fellow Wrenches; We are consulting on a power system for a large off grid facility that is currently operating on a 1500 kW gen set.  The loads are enormous for normal off grid: in the neighborhood of 600 amps continuous at 480 v 3 phase.  Surges are close to 2000 amps, but we are working on control programming to bring that number down substantially.  That is due primarily to a 250 Hp motor start. (that's not a typo!). EPA and local regulations are dictating that the current generator be retired in the near future.  Grid power is a possibility, but we need to offer a viable off grid option as well. My question to the group: does anyone have real off grid experience with large format battery based inverters?   I've heard of some micro-grid systems running in Haiti on Princeton Power inverters, and Dynapower has a 250 kW inverter that has a "grid forming" mode.  As we all know, it is easier to make claims in spec sheets than to deliver hard motor starting power in a remote location.  We need proven products, with a track record of reliability. We are considering SMA type systems that use AC coupled PV to offset fuel consumption of a generator, but those seem dependent on the generator to maintain the stability of the micro grid during hard starting loads. Ideally we would want to reduce the generator run time to under 200 hrs/ yr and reduce its size to 500 kW.  We have excellent solar resources year round, and the possibility of  limiting operations during cloudy weather to meet these goals. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 00:27:05 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:27:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off Grid Inverter? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: you have a problem that is much bigger than I work on. But on a large motor heavy starting loads problem, we used an extra capacitor on the DC bus of the frequency drive. the drive on its own greatly reduced the start surge, if the load can be started slowly. If the motor must ramp up quickly the voltage would drop and the capacitor reduced the bump on the line. This was a few years ago but we put a 200 HP drive on a 100 HP motor and added the extra capacitor. Another trick on a different job was to run a 3 phase motor with a flywheel and start this motor slowly when the motor that had to start rapidly the running motor acts as a frequency stabilizer and dumps it energy into the rapidly starting motor. again this was maybe 15 years ago. these kluge solutions were applied when the inverter could in no way handle the surge and would kick the inverter off the line. Another solution used by Catipiller they had a unit that could give 3000 amps 480 v0lts for I think 30 seconds running a motor as a flywheel for UPS giving the generator set time to start. Check with Catapiller. again another project we clutched the running motor to the load to start the load fast and not have to face starting current. One last comment we had a 5000 HP motor to start a very heavy load, this motor had a hydraulic coupling that filled with oil to control the motor load. But I think a speed drive is more practical. And there are regen drives also. There are some other kluges that can be applied, good luck, sorry if this is of no value. On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 2:36 PM, Ray wrote: > Greetings Fellow Wrenches; > > We are consulting on a power system for a large off grid facility that is > currently operating on a 1500 kW gen set. The loads are enormous for > normal off grid: in the neighborhood of 600 amps continuous at 480 v 3 > phase. Surges are close to 2000 amps, but we are working on control > programming to bring that number down substantially. That is due primarily > to a 250 Hp motor start. (that's not a typo!). EPA and local regulations > are dictating that the current generator be retired in the near future. > Grid power is a possibility, but we need to offer a viable off grid option > as well. > > My question to the group: does anyone have real off grid experience with > large format battery based inverters? I've heard of some micro-grid > systems running in Haiti on Princeton Power inverters, and Dynapower has a > 250 kW inverter that has a "grid forming" mode. As we all know, it is > easier to make claims in spec sheets than to deliver hard motor starting > power in a remote location. We need proven products, with a track record > of reliability. > > We are considering SMA type systems that use AC coupled PV to offset fuel > consumption of a generator, but those seem dependent on the generator to > maintain the stability of the micro grid during hard starting loads. > Ideally we would want to reduce the generator run time to under 200 hrs/ yr > and reduce its size to 500 kW. We have excellent solar resources year > round, and the possibility of limiting operations during cloudy weather to > meet these goals. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 26 10:17:22 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 07:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off Grid Inverter? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <137248eaf3eee65ef2290827b76d09bc.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Agree with Daryl here at the end. You have to solve the motor surge with variable frequency drive and go 3 phase. If there is a reasonable cost to use the grid I would not even bother with quoting an off the grid solution. It is what the grid is best at and batteries are the wrong way for this. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > you have a problem that is much bigger than I work on. But on a large > motor heavy starting loads problem, we used an extra capacitor on the DC > bus of the frequency drive. the drive on its own greatly reduced the > start > surge, if the load can be started slowly. If the motor must ramp up > quickly the voltage would drop and the capacitor reduced the bump on the > line. This was a few years ago but we put a 200 HP drive on a 100 HP > motor > and added the extra capacitor. Another trick on a different job was to > run > a 3 phase motor with a flywheel and start this motor slowly when the motor > that had to start rapidly the running motor acts as a frequency > stabilizer and dumps it energy into the rapidly starting motor. again > this > was maybe 15 years ago. these kluge solutions were applied when the > inverter could in no way handle the surge and would kick the inverter off > the line. Another solution used by Catipiller they had a unit that could > give 3000 amps 480 v0lts for I think 30 seconds running a motor as a > flywheel for UPS giving the generator set time to start. Check with > Catapiller. again another project we clutched the running motor to the > load to start the load fast and not have to face starting current. One > last comment we had a 5000 HP motor to start a very heavy load, this motor > had a hydraulic coupling that filled with oil to control the motor load. > But I think a speed drive is more practical. And there are regen drives > also. > > There are some other kluges that can be applied, good luck, sorry if this > is of no value. > > On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 2:36 PM, Ray wrote: > >> Greetings Fellow Wrenches; >> >> We are consulting on a power system for a large off grid facility that >> is >> currently operating on a 1500 kW gen set. The loads are enormous for >> normal off grid: in the neighborhood of 600 amps continuous at 480 v 3 >> phase. Surges are close to 2000 amps, but we are working on control >> programming to bring that number down substantially. That is due >> primarily >> to a 250 Hp motor start. (that's not a typo!). EPA and local regulations >> are dictating that the current generator be retired in the near future. >> Grid power is a possibility, but we need to offer a viable off grid >> option >> as well. >> >> My question to the group: does anyone have real off grid experience with >> large format battery based inverters? I've heard of some micro-grid >> systems running in Haiti on Princeton Power inverters, and Dynapower has >> a >> 250 kW inverter that has a "grid forming" mode. As we all know, it is >> easier to make claims in spec sheets than to deliver hard motor starting >> power in a remote location. We need proven products, with a track >> record >> of reliability. >> >> We are considering SMA type systems that use AC coupled PV to offset >> fuel >> consumption of a generator, but those seem dependent on the generator to >> maintain the stability of the micro grid during hard starting loads. >> Ideally we would want to reduce the generator run time to under 200 hrs/ >> yr >> and reduce its size to 500 kW. We have excellent solar resources year >> round, and the possibility of limiting operations during cloudy weather >> to >> meet these goals. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ray Walters >> >> Remote Solar >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or >> g/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 26 14:20:56 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:20:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off Grid Inverter? In-Reply-To: <137248eaf3eee65ef2290827b76d09bc.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <137248eaf3eee65ef2290827b76d09bc.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: We're not too worried about reducing the surge at this point; the existing soft start controller is currently programmed for a fast start, because their electrician was worried about motor damage if the controller was set to limit current.  It is currently surging to 700% of run current, so we should be able to easily bring that down to 200% with some programming.  We just need to convince them that the motor will not be damaged. It will only see one start/ day. Grid is 3 miles away, but they may be required to suspend their operations for months or years, while all the necessary studies, easements, and approvals are obtained.  Also, in this case, there is a strong incentive from their management to try off grid, as they have other operations that they want to wean off of gen-sets that will never have grid. I agree with both of you, and suggested the grid option first. With the right technology, we could use PV and battery storage off grid, then once grid power is available, go to a GT system with the battery storage used to reduce demand charges. I still haven't heard from anyone here that has actually done large scale (over 100kW) inverters off grid.  I don't want to spec the next Studebaker of solar. Thanks everyone for your help, Ray On 4/26/18 8:17 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > Agree with Daryl here at the end. You have to solve the motor surge with > variable frequency drive and go 3 phase. If there is a reasonable cost to > use the grid I would not even bother with quoting an off the grid > solution. It is what the grid is best at and batteries are the wrong way > for this. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > >> you have a problem that is much bigger than I work on. But on a large >> motor heavy starting loads problem, we used an extra capacitor on the DC >> bus of the frequency drive. the drive on its own greatly reduced the >> start >> surge, if the load can be started slowly. If the motor must ramp up >> quickly the voltage would drop and the capacitor reduced the bump on the >> line. This was a few years ago but we put a 200 HP drive on a 100 HP >> motor >> and added the extra capacitor. Another trick on a different job was to >> run >> a 3 phase motor with a flywheel and start this motor slowly when the motor >> that had to start rapidly the running motor acts as a frequency >> stabilizer and dumps it energy into the rapidly starting motor. again >> this >> was maybe 15 years ago. these kluge solutions were applied when the >> inverter could in no way handle the surge and would kick the inverter off >> the line. Another solution used by Catipiller they had a unit that could >> give 3000 amps 480 v0lts for I think 30 seconds running a motor as a >> flywheel for UPS giving the generator set time to start. Check with >> Catapiller. again another project we clutched the running motor to the >> load to start the load fast and not have to face starting current. One >> last comment we had a 5000 HP motor to start a very heavy load, this motor >> had a hydraulic coupling that filled with oil to control the motor load. >> But I think a speed drive is more practical. And there are regen drives >> also. >> >> There are some other kluges that can be applied, good luck, sorry if this >> is of no value. >> >> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 2:36 PM, Ray wrote: >> >>> Greetings Fellow Wrenches; >>> >>> We are consulting on a power system for a large off grid facility that >>> is >>> currently operating on a 1500 kW gen set. The loads are enormous for >>> normal off grid: in the neighborhood of 600 amps continuous at 480 v 3 >>> phase. Surges are close to 2000 amps, but we are working on control >>> programming to bring that number down substantially. That is due >>> primarily >>> to a 250 Hp motor start. (that's not a typo!). EPA and local regulations >>> are dictating that the current generator be retired in the near future. >>> Grid power is a possibility, but we need to offer a viable off grid >>> option >>> as well. >>> >>> My question to the group: does anyone have real off grid experience with >>> large format battery based inverters? I've heard of some micro-grid >>> systems running in Haiti on Princeton Power inverters, and Dynapower has >>> a >>> 250 kW inverter that has a "grid forming" mode. As we all know, it is >>> easier to make claims in spec sheets than to deliver hard motor starting >>> power in a remote location. We need proven products, with a track >>> record >>> of reliability. >>> >>> We are considering SMA type systems that use AC coupled PV to offset >>> fuel >>> consumption of a generator, but those seem dependent on the generator to >>> maintain the stability of the micro grid during hard starting loads. >>> Ideally we would want to reduce the generator run time to under 200 hrs/ >>> yr >>> and reduce its size to 500 kW. We have excellent solar resources year >>> round, and the possibility of limiting operations during cloudy weather >>> to >>> meet these goals. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> >>> Remote Solar >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or >>> g/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From hiltondier at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 17:29:57 2018 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 17:29:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off grid inverter Message-ID: <51EB44EE-4A7F-4777-B0B7-4105B2318E32@gmail.com> A tough assignment, but Daryl has the right idea. A company I used to work for did large off grid systems and would use something they called a rotary capacitor (or something like that). It was a large induction motor paralleled into the grid. It had a DC pony motor and some synchro hardware/software. The DC motor would run it up to synchronous speed and the contactors would bring it online. It would just sit there idling, drawing just enough to overcome friction and windage. When some big reactive load hit the grid it would smooth out the wobble in the waveform. If the functional motor in question doesn’t start under load, you might consider a DC pony motor to bring it up to synchro RPM before closing the main contactors. Good luck! Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Apr 26 19:23:48 2018 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 23:23:48 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off Grid Inverter? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82f95bfff9f54a8a954ef18865904476@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hello Ray, I have a couple 60/100 kW SMA Sunny Island systems out there, systems with 100 kW generators, 400 kWh battery banks and generally token renewable inputs. I feel with this configuration we close maxing out what can be done with 48VDC. Getting into the MW scale scares me to be honest. I think that will be well beyond what can be handled at 48VDC and is well beyond capacity of the SMA systems. Really need to look into higher DC voltages to handle this kind of current. If this was my client I would first look to the loads and see if there are any alternatives to the 250 HP motor. I have learned there are often massive levels of engineering overkill in the industrial world. What is the duty cycle of that motor, what does it do, etc? Would they be better to go directly diesel for that? In terms of system designs I'd investigate a direct diesel/PV interface skipping battery storage. Perhaps a group of 250 kW synchronized generators that can ramp up/down based on demand. Perhaps similar tech to what Tesla is doing in Australia. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: April-25-18 12:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off Grid Inverter? Greetings Fellow Wrenches; We are consulting on a power system for a large off grid facility that is currently operating on a 1500 kW gen set.  The loads are enormous for normal off grid: in the neighborhood of 600 amps continuous at 480 v 3 phase.  Surges are close to 2000 amps, but we are working on control programming to bring that number down substantially.  That is due primarily to a 250 Hp motor start. (that's not a typo!). EPA and local regulations are dictating that the current generator be retired in the near future.  Grid power is a possibility, but we need to offer a viable off grid option as well. My question to the group: does anyone have real off grid experience with large format battery based inverters?   I've heard of some micro-grid systems running in Haiti on Princeton Power inverters, and Dynapower has a 250 kW inverter that has a "grid forming" mode.  As we all know, it is easier to make claims in spec sheets than to deliver hard motor starting power in a remote location.  We need proven products, with a track record of reliability. We are considering SMA type systems that use AC coupled PV to offset fuel consumption of a generator, but those seem dependent on the generator to maintain the stability of the micro grid during hard starting loads. Ideally we would want to reduce the generator run time to under 200 hrs/ yr and reduce its size to 500 kW.  We have excellent solar resources year round, and the possibility of  limiting operations during cloudy weather to meet these goals. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From bzp at brick.net Thu Apr 26 14:15:34 2018 From: bzp at brick.net (bzp) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 13:15:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off Grid Inverter? In-Reply-To: <137248eaf3eee65ef2290827b76d09bc.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <137248eaf3eee65ef2290827b76d09bc.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <244213fc-adc7-f43a-8cdf-7272911c5120@brick.net> Try a three phase soft starter. Programmable start ramp time with relay bypass. Not as expensive as a full blown VFD. Frank BZP. On 4/26/2018 9:17 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > Agree with Daryl here at the end. You have to solve the motor surge with > variable frequency drive and go 3 phase. If there is a reasonable cost to > use the grid I would not even bother with quoting an off the grid > solution. It is what the grid is best at and batteries are the wrong way > for this. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > >> you have a problem that is much bigger than I work on. But on a large >> motor heavy starting loads problem, we used an extra capacitor on the DC >> bus of the frequency drive. the drive on its own greatly reduced the >> start >> surge, if the load can be started slowly. If the motor must ramp up >> quickly the voltage would drop and the capacitor reduced the bump on the >> line. This was a few years ago but we put a 200 HP drive on a 100 HP >> motor >> and added the extra capacitor. Another trick on a different job was to >> run >> a 3 phase motor with a flywheel and start this motor slowly when the motor >> that had to start rapidly the running motor acts as a frequency >> stabilizer and dumps it energy into the rapidly starting motor. again >> this >> was maybe 15 years ago. these kluge solutions were applied when the >> inverter could in no way handle the surge and would kick the inverter off >> the line. Another solution used by Catipiller they had a unit that could >> give 3000 amps 480 v0lts for I think 30 seconds running a motor as a >> flywheel for UPS giving the generator set time to start. Check with >> Catapiller. again another project we clutched the running motor to the >> load to start the load fast and not have to face starting current. One >> last comment we had a 5000 HP motor to start a very heavy load, this motor >> had a hydraulic coupling that filled with oil to control the motor load. >> But I think a speed drive is more practical. And there are regen drives >> also. >> >> There are some other kluges that can be applied, good luck, sorry if this >> is of no value. >> >> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 2:36 PM, Ray wrote: >> >>> Greetings Fellow Wrenches; >>> >>> We are consulting on a power system for a large off grid facility that >>> is >>> currently operating on a 1500 kW gen set. The loads are enormous for >>> normal off grid: in the neighborhood of 600 amps continuous at 480 v 3 >>> phase. Surges are close to 2000 amps, but we are working on control >>> programming to bring that number down substantially. That is due >>> primarily >>> to a 250 Hp motor start. (that's not a typo!). EPA and local regulations >>> are dictating that the current generator be retired in the near future. >>> Grid power is a possibility, but we need to offer a viable off grid >>> option >>> as well. >>> >>> My question to the group: does anyone have real off grid experience with >>> large format battery based inverters? I've heard of some micro-grid >>> systems running in Haiti on Princeton Power inverters, and Dynapower has >>> a >>> 250 kW inverter that has a "grid forming" mode. As we all know, it is >>> easier to make claims in spec sheets than to deliver hard motor starting >>> power in a remote location. We need proven products, with a track >>> record >>> of reliability. >>> >>> We are considering SMA type systems that use AC coupled PV to offset >>> fuel >>> consumption of a generator, but those seem dependent on the generator to >>> maintain the stability of the micro grid during hard starting loads. >>> Ideally we would want to reduce the generator run time to under 200 hrs/ >>> yr >>> and reduce its size to 500 kW. We have excellent solar resources year >>> round, and the possibility of limiting operations during cloudy weather >>> to >>> meet these goals. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> >>> Remote Solar >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or >>> g/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 26 19:58:19 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 16:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off Grid Inverter? In-Reply-To: <82f95bfff9f54a8a954ef18865904476@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <82f95bfff9f54a8a954ef18865904476@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <25091d2651b830aa3c92534fcc0d945a.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I know Schneider would love to sell you their cluster of 15 XW6848+ for a max of 102KW and probably well over 300KW of surge. Here is a link to their commercial offgrid. I do own their stock and other companies also :) Their commercial engineers are pretty smart about this. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/solution/commercial-off-grid-solar-2/ This does sound like a challenge and keep us informed on what you do please! Good Luck! --Dave > Hello Ray, > > I have a couple 60/100 kW SMA Sunny Island systems out there, systems with > 100 kW generators, 400 kWh battery banks and generally token renewable > inputs. I feel with this configuration we close maxing out what can be > done with 48VDC. > > Getting into the MW scale scares me to be honest. I think that will be > well beyond what can be handled at 48VDC and is well beyond capacity of > the SMA systems. Really need to look into higher DC voltages to handle > this kind of current. > > If this was my client I would first look to the loads and see if there are > any alternatives to the 250 HP motor. I have learned there are often > massive levels of engineering overkill in the industrial world. What is > the duty cycle of that motor, what does it do, etc? Would they be better > to go directly diesel for that? > > In terms of system designs I'd investigate a direct diesel/PV interface > skipping battery storage. Perhaps a group of 250 kW synchronized > generators that can ramp up/down based on demand. Perhaps similar tech to > what Tesla is doing in Australia. > > Kevin > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: April-25-18 12:37 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off Grid Inverter? > > Greetings Fellow Wrenches; > > We are consulting on a power system for a large off grid facility that is > currently operating on a 1500 kW gen set.  The loads are enormous for > normal off grid: in the neighborhood of 600 amps continuous at 480 v 3 > phase.  Surges are close to 2000 amps, but we are working on control > programming to bring that number down substantially.  That is due > primarily to a 250 Hp motor start. (that's not a typo!). EPA and local > regulations are dictating that the current generator be retired in the > near future.  Grid power is a possibility, but we need to offer a viable > off grid option as well. > > My question to the group: does anyone have real off grid experience with > large format battery based inverters?   I've heard of some micro-grid > systems running in Haiti on Princeton Power inverters, and Dynapower has a > 250 kW inverter that has a "grid forming" mode.  As we all know, it is > easier to make claims in spec sheets than to deliver hard motor starting > power in a remote location.  We need proven products, with a track record > of reliability. > > We are considering SMA type systems that use AC coupled PV to offset fuel > consumption of a generator, but those seem dependent on the generator to > maintain the stability of the micro grid during hard starting loads. > Ideally we would want to reduce the generator run time to under 200 hrs/ > yr and reduce its size to 500 kW.  We have excellent solar resources year > round, and the possibility of  limiting operations during cloudy weather > to meet these goals. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 26 20:58:26 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 18:58:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off Grid Inverter? In-Reply-To: <82f95bfff9f54a8a954ef18865904476@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> References: <82f95bfff9f54a8a954ef18865904476@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Message-ID: <11f48e6b-56a6-924d-d708-74abce38d07b@solarray.com> I appreciate everyone's replies so far. First, we already have an electronic soft start control, it just needs to be reprogrammed to reduce the starting surge more.  Second, we are way beyond 48v land.  We are in the realm of commercial scale inverters of at least 500 kW to 1.5 MW.  They will be running at 600 vdc min and probably 1500 v range.  Output is 480v 3 phase. When I mentioned SMA, it was not their Sunny Island, its their larger scale Grid tie equipment syncing to a generator. https://www.sma-america.com/industrial-systems/pv-diesel-hybrid-applications.html Most of the inverters we are looking at are primarily being used with batteries for peak shaving to reduce demand charges on grid. Some, such as Dynapower can work off grid, but I am not finding evidence that anyone has much real life field experience off grid.  Princeton Power has their 100 kW inverter in Haiti forming a micro-grid, but I have very few details at the moment. Even if your experience with these large battery inverters is just on grid, I'd love to hear about it. Offline is fine, if its not all good news. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar On 4/26/18 5:23 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: > Hello Ray, > > I have a couple 60/100 kW SMA Sunny Island systems out there, systems with 100 kW generators, 400 kWh battery banks and generally token renewable inputs. I feel with this configuration we close maxing out what can be done with 48VDC. > > Getting into the MW scale scares me to be honest. I think that will be well beyond what can be handled at 48VDC and is well beyond capacity of the SMA systems. Really need to look into higher DC voltages to handle this kind of current. > > If this was my client I would first look to the loads and see if there are any alternatives to the 250 HP motor. I have learned there are often massive levels of engineering overkill in the industrial world. What is the duty cycle of that motor, what does it do, etc? Would they be better to go directly diesel for that? > > In terms of system designs I'd investigate a direct diesel/PV interface skipping battery storage. Perhaps a group of 250 kW synchronized generators that can ramp up/down based on demand. Perhaps similar tech to what Tesla is doing in Australia. > > Kevin > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray > Sent: April-25-18 12:37 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off Grid Inverter? > > Greetings Fellow Wrenches; > > We are consulting on a power system for a large off grid facility that is currently operating on a 1500 kW gen set.  The loads are enormous for normal off grid: in the neighborhood of 600 amps continuous at 480 v 3 phase.  Surges are close to 2000 amps, but we are working on control programming to bring that number down substantially.  That is due primarily to a 250 Hp motor start. (that's not a typo!). EPA and local regulations are dictating that the current generator be retired in the near future.  Grid power is a possibility, but we need to offer a viable off grid option as well. > > My question to the group: does anyone have real off grid experience with large format battery based inverters?   I've heard of some micro-grid systems running in Haiti on Princeton Power inverters, and Dynapower has a 250 kW inverter that has a "grid forming" mode.  As we all know, it is easier to make claims in spec sheets than to deliver hard motor starting power in a remote location.  We need proven products, with a track record of reliability. > > We are considering SMA type systems that use AC coupled PV to offset fuel consumption of a generator, but those seem dependent on the generator to maintain the stability of the micro grid during hard starting loads. Ideally we would want to reduce the generator run time to under 200 hrs/ yr and reduce its size to 500 kW.  We have excellent solar resources year round, and the possibility of  limiting operations during cloudy weather to meet these goals. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Apr 26 20:24:16 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 17:24:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off Grid Inverter? In-Reply-To: <244213fc-adc7-f43a-8cdf-7272911c5120@brick.net> References: <137248eaf3eee65ef2290827b76d09bc.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <244213fc-adc7-f43a-8cdf-7272911c5120@brick.net> Message-ID: There are many large 250kw to multi mw battery based inverters that should cover this project. Most are coming out of china, so I don’t know if UL is something they have. Princeton is one here in the USA, looks like 250kw and 500kwh is their largest on the web site. Sun Grow is one of many out of china. Most of these are using 600-1500vdc lithium battery banks, 50kw 1000v-1500v CC etc. A whole new ball game. There are also 50-75 kw units as well, I think the days of larger cluster inverter systems is coming to an end. The advantages of higher voltage battery banks is just too good not to use. jay peltz power From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 26 21:21:15 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 18:21:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off Grid Inverter? In-Reply-To: <11f48e6b-56a6-924d-d708-74abce38d07b@solarray.com> References: <82f95bfff9f54a8a954ef18865904476@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <11f48e6b-56a6-924d-d708-74abce38d07b@solarray.com> Message-ID: <516ecbb8e707f0c2471ebdb6c4aa1f43.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I must have missed this in your post! https://solar.schneider-electric.com/solution/centralised-solar-power-plants-1500v/ You can navigate to their engineering team. I have found that once you have a case number you communicate easily with e-mail. --Dave > I appreciate everyone's replies so far. First, we already have an > electronic soft start control, it just needs to be reprogrammed to > reduce the starting surge more.  Second, we are way beyond 48v land.  We > are in the realm of commercial scale inverters of at least 500 kW to 1.5 > MW.  They will be running at 600 vdc min and probably 1500 v range.  > Output is 480v 3 phase. > > When I mentioned SMA, it was not their Sunny Island, its their larger > scale Grid tie equipment syncing to a generator. > > https://www.sma-america.com/industrial-systems/pv-diesel-hybrid-applications.html > > Most of the inverters we are looking at are primarily being used with > batteries for peak shaving to reduce demand charges on grid. Some, such > as Dynapower can work off grid, but I am not finding evidence that > anyone has much real life field experience off grid.  Princeton Power > has their 100 kW inverter in Haiti forming a micro-grid, but I have very > few details at the moment. > > Even if your experience with these large battery inverters is just on > grid, I'd love to hear about it. Offline is fine, if its not all good > news. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > > > On 4/26/18 5:23 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: >> Hello Ray, >> >> I have a couple 60/100 kW SMA Sunny Island systems out there, systems >> with 100 kW generators, 400 kWh battery banks and generally token >> renewable inputs. I feel with this configuration we close maxing out >> what can be done with 48VDC. >> >> Getting into the MW scale scares me to be honest. I think that will be >> well beyond what can be handled at 48VDC and is well beyond capacity of >> the SMA systems. Really need to look into higher DC voltages to handle >> this kind of current. >> >> If this was my client I would first look to the loads and see if there >> are any alternatives to the 250 HP motor. I have learned there are often >> massive levels of engineering overkill in the industrial world. What is >> the duty cycle of that motor, what does it do, etc? Would they be better >> to go directly diesel for that? >> >> In terms of system designs I'd investigate a direct diesel/PV interface >> skipping battery storage. Perhaps a group of 250 kW synchronized >> generators that can ramp up/down based on demand. Perhaps similar tech >> to what Tesla is doing in Australia. >> >> Kevin >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of Ray >> Sent: April-25-18 12:37 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large Off Grid Inverter? >> >> Greetings Fellow Wrenches; >> >> We are consulting on a power system for a large off grid facility that >> is currently operating on a 1500 kW gen set.  The loads are enormous >> for normal off grid: in the neighborhood of 600 amps continuous at 480 v >> 3 phase.  Surges are close to 2000 amps, but we are working on control >> programming to bring that number down substantially.  That is due >> primarily to a 250 Hp motor start. (that's not a typo!). EPA and local >> regulations are dictating that the current generator be retired in the >> near future.  Grid power is a possibility, but we need to offer a >> viable off grid option as well. >> >> My question to the group: does anyone have real off grid experience with >> large format battery based inverters?   I've heard of some micro-grid >> systems running in Haiti on Princeton Power inverters, and Dynapower has >> a 250 kW inverter that has a "grid forming" mode.  As we all know, it >> is easier to make claims in spec sheets than to deliver hard motor >> starting power in a remote location.  We need proven products, with a >> track record of reliability. >> >> We are considering SMA type systems that use AC coupled PV to offset >> fuel consumption of a generator, but those seem dependent on the >> generator to maintain the stability of the micro grid during hard >> starting loads. Ideally we would want to reduce the generator run time >> to under 200 hrs/ yr and reduce its size to 500 kW.  We have excellent >> solar resources year round, and the possibility of  limiting operations >> during cloudy weather to meet these goals. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ray Walters >> >> Remote Solar >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Mon Apr 30 08:31:41 2018 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nik Ponzio, Building Energy) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 08:31:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rain guard Message-ID: We have a roofmount PV array that is very close to the run gutter. The customer is concerned that the runoff during heavy rain will overshoot the gutter. So I'm looking for a product that will mount at the lower edge of the array and slow down the rain water. I looked that Alpine SnowGuards but they all have a small gap between top of solar module and bottom of the snow rail. Any suggestions? -- Nik Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 802-859-3384 ext.115 http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Apr 30 10:41:50 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 07:41:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rain guard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <462808cd-a00b-1bc2-1b0b-177eb3fde4f3@psln.com> Nik,             This sounds like a new install.  Many times I'll suggest to a customer to "see how it goes" with something like this.  It may turn out to be a very occasional event that they are willing to accept, and thus reduce the another failure point factor.  Do you have a snow issue there also?  Its possible the lower edge of the PV frame will slow it down a bit? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 4/30/2018 5:31 AM, Nik Ponzio, Building Energy wrote: > We have a roofmount PV array that is very close to the run gutter. The > customer is concerned that the runoff during heavy rain will overshoot > the gutter. So I'm looking for a product that will mount at the lower > edge of the array and slow down the rain water. I looked that Alpine > SnowGuards but they all have a small gap between top of solar module > and bottom of the snow rail. > > Any suggestions? > > > -- > Nik Ponzio > Building Energy > 1570 South Brownell Road > Williston, VT 05495 > 802-859-3384 ext.115 > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Mon Apr 30 10:43:50 2018 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 14:43:50 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rain guard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We always try and move the lower edge of the array up approx 12" for this exact reason, it's getting harder and harder with the 3' fire clearance rule. Mike On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 5:32 AM Nik Ponzio, Building Energy < nponzio at buildingenergyus.com> wrote: > We have a roofmount PV array that is very close to the run gutter. The > customer is concerned that the runoff during heavy rain will overshoot the > gutter. So I'm looking for a product that will mount at the lower edge of > the array and slow down the rain water. I looked that Alpine SnowGuards but > they all have a small gap between top of solar module and bottom of the > snow rail. > > Any suggestions? > > > -- > Nik Ponzio > Building Energy > 1570 South Brownell Road > Williston, VT 05495 > 802-859-3384 ext.115 > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-884-1862 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Apr 30 10:41:23 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 07:41:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rain guard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nik: Put a splash guard on the rain gutter: Link William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Nik Ponzio, Building Energy *Sent:* Monday, April 30, 2018 5:32 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] rain guard We have a roofmount PV array that is very close to the run gutter. The customer is concerned that the runoff during heavy rain will overshoot the gutter. So I'm looking for a product that will mount at the lower edge of the array and slow down the rain water. I looked that Alpine SnowGuards but they all have a small gap between top of solar module and bottom of the snow rail. Any suggestions? -- Nik Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 802-859-3384 ext.115 http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Mon Apr 30 15:20:02 2018 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:20:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] rain guard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00b501d3e0b8$3d476610$b7d63230$@dovetailsolar.com> Hey Nik, Consider these points with your client: 1. Your racking system most likely has gaps between rows of modules, so most/all of the rain that hits modules higher up on the roof will fall through that gap and will run on the roof as normal. Only the lowest row of modules will collect rain that could “jump the gap”. The 100yr worst rainfall rate in Vermont (listed as in Bratteboro) is 2.7”/hr. The quick math has that as 31 gallons/hr for a standard 60cell module. Which is 0.5gpm. So if they wanted to test this, they should be able to let a garden hose lose on a single solar module (usually far, far more than 0.5gpm, a short piece of garden hose can put out more than 15GPM actually, 30 times the 100yr rainfall rate) and see if that is enough water to jump the gap (be sure to face the hose uphill so the water has a chance to spread laterally and also not be forced off the module edge at an artificially high speed from the water pressure). My bet is that it will not. And you most likely just tested at 3-5times the 100yr storm level of rainfall in your area. 2. If the client is not satisfied with the above. Depending on your racking system, some racks offer skirts. The skirts usually have a curve down to the roof from the module edge, the curve would direct the water down to the roof from the bottom row of modules via surface tension. The water layer will stick to the skirt and follow it down, even if inertia would normally force the water to arc over the gutter. You see that phenomena at water parks sometimes where the water slide has a little hump to give the tube riders a bit of air time, but the water stays stuck as a film to the water slide itself. Surface tension at work. Not to add to your worries, but in Vermont, I’d be more worried of ice sheeting on the bottom row of modules and bypassing the gutter, to fall of pedestrians or people entering the house if your gutters overhung the entrance. But you get a lot of snow in Vermont, so houses there may designed that particular hazard out of most home construction. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Nik Ponzio, Building Energy Sent: Monday, April 30, 2018 8:32 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] rain guard We have a roofmount PV array that is very close to the run gutter. The customer is concerned that the runoff during heavy rain will overshoot the gutter. So I'm looking for a product that will mount at the lower edge of the array and slow down the rain water. I looked that Alpine SnowGuards but they all have a small gap between top of solar module and bottom of the snow rail. Any suggestions? -- Nik Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 802-859-3384 ext.115 http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Mon Apr 30 15:01:54 2018 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:01:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Suniva modules, OPT335-72-4-100 Message-ID: <005f01d3e0b5$b500d770$1f028650$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: I have a customer looking for four of these; if you have any, please contact me offlist. Thanks! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From rick at SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Thu May 3 15:44:42 2018 From: rick at SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 15:44:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarWorld SW 175 Message-ID: Looking for a replacement for a single SW175. Anyone have a source for a new or used one? I’ve looked through the usual channels. Thanks! rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Thu May 3 16:11:05 2018 From: rick at SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 16:11:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarWorld SW 175 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2E77B62E-CE46-4052-A6EC-18D1EFC62344@SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com> Looks like GenPro Energy Solutions will be offering something comparable in June. If someone has a resource for used SW175s I’d still be interested. Thanks, rick brown > On May 3, 2018, at 3:44 PM, Rick Brown wrote: > > Looking for a replacement for a single SW175. Anyone have a source for a new or used one? I’ve looked through the usual channels. > > Thanks! > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Fri May 4 13:07:42 2018 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Fri, 04 May 2018 17:07:42 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire damage Message-ID: Greetings wrenches, I have a client that is looking to buy some salvaged modules off of a building that was near a fire. What kind of potential issues can you anticipate? Smoke, heat, etc. Would it be enough to just test voc and isc for a known cell temp and irradiance in addition to a visual inspection or would an iv curve trace be necessary? Thanks for any information, Kris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com Fri May 4 13:37:07 2018 From: Gary at IcarusSolarServices.com (Gary Willett) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 12:37:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire damage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <079ed69a-2aed-6535-8c90-62b6b5c4a51a@IcarusSolarServices.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri May 4 14:22:49 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 04 May 2018 18:22:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire damage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Best to use a PV Analyzer to get accurate tests results Jerry On Fri, May 4, 2018, 7:07 AM Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Greetings wrenches, > > I have a client that is looking to buy some salvaged modules off of a > building that was near a fire. What kind of potential issues can you > anticipate? Smoke, heat, etc. Would it be enough to just test voc and isc > for a known cell temp and irradiance in addition to a visual inspection or > would an iv curve trace be necessary? > > Thanks for any information, > Kris > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 4 14:38:55 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 11:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire damage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <908d6d6f89385073ef3ac82daaab7884.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Are they worth it? I might tell someone to take a chance if they were Sunpower/Panasonic/LG mono panels:) > Best to use a PV Analyzer to get accurate tests results > Jerry > > On Fri, May 4, 2018, 7:07 AM Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > >> Greetings wrenches, >> >> I have a client that is looking to buy some salvaged modules off of a >> building that was near a fire. What kind of potential issues can you >> anticipate? Smoke, heat, etc. Would it be enough to just test voc and >> isc >> for a known cell temp and irradiance in addition to a visual inspection >> or >> would an iv curve trace be necessary? >> >> Thanks for any information, >> Kris >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Fri May 4 17:42:34 2018 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 17:42:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire damage In-Reply-To: <908d6d6f89385073ef3ac82daaab7884.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <908d6d6f89385073ef3ac82daaab7884.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: I would talk to a module manufacturer’s technical rep. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On May 4, 2018, at 2:38 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Are they worth it? I might tell someone to take a chance if they were > Sunpower/Panasonic/LG mono panels:) > > > >> Best to use a PV Analyzer to get accurate tests results >> Jerry >> >> On Fri, May 4, 2018, 7:07 AM Kristopher Schmid >> wrote: >> >>> Greetings wrenches, >>> >>> I have a client that is looking to buy some salvaged modules off of a >>> building that was near a fire. What kind of potential issues can you >>> anticipate? Smoke, heat, etc. Would it be enough to just test voc and >>> isc >>> for a known cell temp and irradiance in addition to a visual inspection >>> or >>> would an iv curve trace be necessary? >>> >>> Thanks for any information, >>> Kris >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri May 4 18:05:09 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 15:05:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire damage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kris, With liquidation companies like Sun Electronics, where I see a new 280 Watt module for about $100 and some used 300W for 84 bucks, why would you consider used, possibly damaged modules that need to be removed and tested? There is “cheap" and there is “a fool and his money”. I recommend cheap instead. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On May 4, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: Greetings wrenches, I have a client that is looking to buy some salvaged modules off of a building that was near a fire. What kind of potential issues can you anticipate? Smoke, heat, etc. Would it be enough to just test voc and isc for a known cell temp and irradiance in addition to a visual inspection or would an iv curve trace be necessary? Thanks for any information, Kris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri May 4 16:08:33 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 13:08:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire damage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <425DAA41-B50B-4654-A1BB-D84EADA3E953@gmail.com> The key here is how much? Assuming they have to take them off the roof, and assuming its pretty clear that there was no fire damage and that they were a name brand and no more than 3 years old. And now you need to get large pallets, and you won’t have any spacing for the modules. They are going to be dinged up, and scratched, they can’t be used for any system that’ll qualify for tax credits/rebates. I’d say $.05 per watt, and maybe they should be paid to take them off the roof. jay peltz power > On May 4, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > Greetings wrenches, > > I have a client that is looking to buy some salvaged modules off of a building that was near a fire. What kind of potential issues can you anticipate? Smoke, heat, etc. Would it be enough to just test voc and isc for a known cell temp and irradiance in addition to a visual inspection or would an iv curve trace be necessary? > > Thanks for any information, > Kris > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Tue May 8 11:50:56 2018 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nik Ponzio, Building Energy) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 11:50:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Squirrel Guards for Solarworld 2.0 Frames Message-ID: We need to add squirrel guards to an older system with Solarworld panels. The 2.0 frames are not compatible with the snapNrack or spiffy solar guards that we have used in the past. Any other products that we should consider? Has anyone used the SolaTrim with adhesive attachment? http://solatrim.com/ -- Nik Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 802-859-3384 ext.115 http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevin at ecohousesolar.com Tue May 8 11:53:47 2018 From: kevin at ecohousesolar.com (Kevin Eigel) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 11:53:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Squirrel Guards for Solarworld 2.0 Frames In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Nick: We have used the solatrim on Solarworld modules, and it works well, although I have some doubts about how long the adhesive will hold up over time. We purchased it on ebay for a discount. Kevin Eigel *Ecohouse Solar* 1857 Northwest Blvd. Ste 201, Columbus, OH 43212 www.ecohousesolar.com 614-805-5776 On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:50 AM, Nik Ponzio, Building Energy < nponzio at buildingenergyus.com> wrote: > We need to add squirrel guards to an older system with Solarworld panels. > The 2.0 frames are not compatible with the snapNrack or spiffy solar guards > that we have used in the past. Any other products that we should consider? > > Has anyone used the SolaTrim with adhesive attachment? http://solatrim. > com/ > > > -- > Nik Ponzio > Building Energy > 1570 South Brownell Road > Williston, VT 05495 > 802-859-3384 ext.115 > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swingjunkie at gmail.com Tue May 8 12:05:24 2018 From: swingjunkie at gmail.com (Carl Adams) Date: Tue, 08 May 2018 16:05:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Squirrel Guards for Solarworld 2.0 Frames In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nick, We use the SnapNRack screen and attach with SS self tapers and fender washers. Carl Adams SunRock Solar NABCEP Certified PV Installer On Tue, May 8, 2018, 11:51 AM Nik Ponzio, Building Energy < nponzio at buildingenergyus.com> wrote: > We need to add squirrel guards to an older system with Solarworld panels. > The 2.0 frames are not compatible with the snapNrack or spiffy solar guards > that we have used in the past. Any other products that we should consider? > > Has anyone used the SolaTrim with adhesive attachment? > http://solatrim.com/ > > > -- > Nik Ponzio > Building Energy > 1570 South Brownell Road > Williston, VT 05495 > 802-859-3384 ext.115 > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Tue May 8 12:06:25 2018 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Tue, 08 May 2018 16:06:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Squirrel Guards for Solarworld 2.0 Frames In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SnapNRack makes a ‘box frame adapter’ that will let you use their netting on panels that don’t have the lip on the panel frame On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:53 AM Kevin Eigel wrote: > HI Nick: > > We have used the solatrim on Solarworld modules, and it works well, > although I have some doubts about how long the adhesive will hold up over > time. > We purchased it on ebay for a discount. > > > Kevin Eigel > *Ecohouse Solar* > 1857 Northwest Blvd. Ste 201, Columbus, OH 43212 > www.ecohousesolar.com > 614-805-5776 > > > On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:50 AM, Nik Ponzio, Building Energy < > nponzio at buildingenergyus.com> wrote: > >> We need to add squirrel guards to an older system with Solarworld panels. >> The 2.0 frames are not compatible with the snapNrack or spiffy solar guards >> that we have used in the past. Any other products that we should consider? >> >> Has anyone used the SolaTrim with adhesive attachment? >> http://solatrim.com/ >> >> >> -- >> Nik Ponzio >> Building Energy >> 1570 South Brownell Road >> Williston, VT 05495 >> 802-859-3384 ext.115 >> http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Tue May 8 12:42:34 2018 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 12:42:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA -40 Arc Faults Message-ID: <702b03fb8e6f51ee8a1294805c5da8fb.squirrel@www.solar-energy-solutions.com> Wrenches, I recall seeing some past threads about SMA arc fault issues but am curious if others are using SMA -40 inverters extensively and NOT seeing intermittent arc faults? If so, I would be curious what your DC installation practices look like? Are you ensuring that homerun ends use connectors identical to your module manufacturer? Are you crimping any DC transitions? Perhaps using insulated lugs for DC transitions? What type of conduit are you using for DC wiring? Are you using ferrules where you terminate in the inverter? Any other tips or suggestions are also welcome. At the moment arc faults for the SMA -40 inverters seem to be our main service ticket at this time (surpassing Enphase replacements and surpassing prior-model SMA arc fault issues). The arc fault errors are particularly prevalent on systems with Tigo optimizers installed though we have occurrences on pretty much every -40 unit. System meantime between failure seems to be unpredictable but somewhere between 2-180 days. There does seem to be some correlation between systems with shading and Tigos and prevalence of arc faults. Shutting off arc fault seems to be the only true solution which is obviously undesirable. SMA has us update firmware and has had us shutoff Optitrac neither of which resolve the issue. They also ask us to check wiring connections which almost never yields results (though we have found a squirrel or two which makes one grateful that the arc fault function exists). Thanks for any advice, Matt Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From blake at sunlightandpower.com Tue May 8 15:15:08 2018 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 12:15:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA -40 Arc Faults In-Reply-To: <702b03fb8e6f51ee8a1294805c5da8fb.squirrel@www.solar-energy-solutions.com> References: <702b03fb8e6f51ee8a1294805c5da8fb.squirrel@www.solar-energy-solutions.com> Message-ID: Hi Matt - A couple of years ago, I worked extensively with an inverter manufacturer (sorry I can't name) who was seeing a lot of arc-fault nuisance tripping on systems with Tigo. They had some fancy test equipment and did a bunch of analysis and found that Tigo was creating a lot of noise on the DC circuits, and that noise would look like DC arc fault noise in many situations. I don't know whether Tigo has made improvements or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if the -40 is sensitive to the Tigo noise. If you can talk to the right person at SMA (I don't know who that would be these days), you might ask them about whether they have evaluated the -40 arc detection for compatibility with Tigo; if not, maybe they could. I suspect it's partially a matter of an evolving and imperfect set of standards. Probably both the inverter and the maximizer meet their respective noise standards, but there is still a problem when you put them together. Best, Blake On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 9:42 AM, Matt Partymiller < matt at solar-energy-solutions.com> wrote: > Wrenches, > > I recall seeing some past threads about SMA arc fault issues but am > curious if others are using SMA -40 inverters extensively and NOT seeing > intermittent arc faults? If so, I would be curious what your DC > installation practices look like? Are you ensuring that homerun ends use > connectors identical to your module manufacturer? Are you crimping any DC > transitions? Perhaps using insulated lugs for DC transitions? What type of > conduit are you using for DC wiring? Are you using ferrules where you > terminate in the inverter? Any other tips or suggestions are also > welcome. > > At the moment arc faults for the SMA -40 inverters seem to be our main > service ticket at this time (surpassing Enphase replacements and > surpassing prior-model SMA arc fault issues). The arc fault errors are > particularly prevalent on systems with Tigo optimizers installed though we > have occurrences on pretty much every -40 unit. System meantime between > failure seems to be unpredictable but somewhere between 2-180 days. There > does seem to be some correlation between systems with shading and Tigos > and prevalence of arc faults. Shutting off arc fault seems to be the only > true solution which is obviously undesirable. > > SMA has us update firmware and has had us shutoff Optitrac neither of > which resolve the issue. They also ask us to check wiring connections > which almost never yields results (though we have found a squirrel or two > which makes one grateful that the arc fault function exists). > > Thanks for any advice, > > Matt > > > > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- * Blake Gleason* - PE, LEED AP *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* *P:* 510.845.2997 x128 *E:* blake at sunlightandpower.com *W:* sunlightandpower.com See how universities are using business as a force for good with solar! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue May 8 17:46:59 2018 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 15:46:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Squirrel Guards for Solarworld 2.0 Frames In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7B2A2B08-9BD9-48D3-B503-43756996AF4E@skyfireenergy.com> We've used the Solatrim on one larger system. Installed it fall of '17. Time will tell if the adhesive can withstand our temperatures swings of 30degC to -40degC Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On May 8, 2018, at 9:50 AM, Nik Ponzio, Building Energy wrote: > > We need to add squirrel guards to an older system with Solarworld panels. The 2.0 frames are not compatible with the snapNrack or spiffy solar guards that we have used in the past. Any other products that we should consider? > > Has anyone used the SolaTrim with adhesive attachment? http://solatrim.com/ > > > -- > Nik Ponzio > Building Energy > 1570 South Brownell Road > Williston, VT 05495 > 802-859-3384 ext.115 > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu May 10 16:42:44 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 13:42:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown Message-ID: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> Wrenches, Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked every charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No cause found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power in her RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the 23rd month after installation. After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that another set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they had fused together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too peculiar to know of two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 year warranty period but my customer could not come back to us for another 3 months beyond the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything towards replacement do to the reporting date being grater than 24 months. I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0627.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 86374 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steve at surrette.com Thu May 10 16:59:22 2018 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 13:59:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown In-Reply-To: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> References: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Larry, Do you have any pic's of them installed? That would help a lot in getting an idea of how/why these failed. I do have two questions for you... Were there tie down straps over the tops of the batteries? Where was the temp sensor? Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 1:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Wrenches, > > Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and > thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked > every charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No > cause found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power > in her RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the > batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the > 23rd month after installation. > > After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that > another set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they > had fused together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too > peculiar to know of two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 > year warranty period but my customer could not come back to us for another > 3 months beyond the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything > towards replacement do to the reporting date being grater than 24 months. > > I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or > Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size. > > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0627.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 86374 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu May 10 17:41:31 2018 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 14:41:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown In-Reply-To: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> References: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: One year old. Well looked after system. > On May 10, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > Wrenches, > > Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked every charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No cause found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power in her RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the 23rd month after installation. > > After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that another set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they had fused together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too peculiar to know of two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 year warranty period but my customer could not come back to us for another 3 months beyond the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything towards replacement do to the reporting date being grater than 24 months. > > I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size. > > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 111044 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Thu May 10 18:02:56 2018 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (maverick at mavericksolar.com) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 17:02:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <710D31BB-94F1-4D31-B20C-76141A15AE56@mavericksolar.com> Looks like a mix of old and new Batteries in a cabinet too small to drain excessive heat gain. Was the cabinet shaded? Or exposed to direct sun? Temp sensor on charging source? What size interconnect cables were used? Was it a bus system? Absorb with End Amps was turned on? Sent from my iPhone > On May 10, 2018, at 4:41 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote: > > > One year old. Well looked after system. >> On May 10, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: >> >> Wrenches, >> >> Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked every charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No cause found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power in her RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the 23rd month after installation. >> >> After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that another set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they had fused together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too peculiar to know of two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 year warranty period but my customer could not come back to us for another 3 months beyond the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything towards replacement do to the reporting date being grater than 24 months. >> >> I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Thu May 10 17:48:15 2018 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 14:48:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown In-Reply-To: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> References: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <01e401d3e8a8$9b2ec640$d18c52c0$@solarwindworks.com> Wow, Melting point: 621.4°F . Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 1:43 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown Wrenches, Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked every charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No cause found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power in her RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the 23rd month after installation. After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that another set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they had fused together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too peculiar to know of two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 year warranty period but my customer could not come back to us for another 3 months beyond the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything towards replacement do to the reporting date being grater than 24 months. I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 86374 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Thu May 10 18:49:15 2018 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 18:49:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown In-Reply-To: <710D31BB-94F1-4D31-B20C-76141A15AE56@mavericksolar.com> References: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> <710D31BB-94F1-4D31-B20C-76141A15AE56@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <215DB8BC-9809-4039-93AE-5003619248AD@solshineenergyalternatives.com> I’m inclined to agree with Maverick. Mixing old and new batteries is not recommended. Differing internal resistance coupled with potentially extreme temps can lead to thermal runaway. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On May 10, 2018, at 6:02 PM, "maverick at mavericksolar.com" wrote: > > Looks like a mix of old and new Batteries in a cabinet too small to drain excessive heat gain. Was the cabinet shaded? Or exposed to direct sun? Temp sensor on charging source? > What size interconnect cables were used? > Was it a bus system? > Absorb with End Amps was turned on? > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 10, 2018, at 4:41 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote: >> >> >> One year old. Well looked after system. >>> On May 10, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked every charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No cause found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power in her RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the 23rd month after installation. >>> >>> After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that another set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they had fused together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too peculiar to know of two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 year warranty period but my customer could not come back to us for another 3 months beyond the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything towards replacement do to the reporting date being grater than 24 months. >>> >>> I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Larry Crutcher >>> Starlight Solar Power Systems >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu May 10 19:18:12 2018 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 16:18:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown In-Reply-To: <215DB8BC-9809-4039-93AE-5003619248AD@solshineenergyalternatives.com> References: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> <710D31BB-94F1-4D31-B20C-76141A15AE56@mavericksolar.com> <215DB8BC-9809-4039-93AE-5003619248AD@solshineenergyalternatives.com> Message-ID: The picture shows a group of new Fullriver batteries destined for a different site, and the ruined Crown’s I had just pulled out. They are sitting in the back of my truck. Batteries were in a basement that stays 55F year round. Temp sensors for both the Magnum inverter and Midnite Classic 150. Small array(600 watts). 2/0 cables. Absorb time 1.5 hours. Factory recommended charging parameters. Tight connections. My first thermal runaway after hundreds and hundreds of battery bank installs too. My local distributor has been pushing Crowns and their great warranty so I reluctantly gave them a shot. Lead acids and AGMs. I’m not impressed with either. Nor their warranty process. I > On May 10, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Rick Brown wrote: > > I’m inclined to agree with Maverick. Mixing old and new batteries is not recommended. Differing internal resistance coupled with potentially extreme temps can lead to thermal runaway. > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > On May 10, 2018, at 6:02 PM, "maverick at mavericksolar.com " > wrote: > >> Looks like a mix of old and new Batteries in a cabinet too small to drain excessive heat gain. Was the cabinet shaded? Or exposed to direct sun? Temp sensor on charging source? >> What size interconnect cables were used? >> Was it a bus system? >> Absorb with End Amps was turned on? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On May 10, 2018, at 4:41 PM, Michael Morningstar > wrote: >> >>> >>> One year old. Well looked after system. >>> On May 10, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems > wrote: >>> >>>> Wrenches, >>>> >>>> Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked every charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No cause found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power in her RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the 23rd month after installation. >>>> >>>> After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that another set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they had fused together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too peculiar to know of two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 year warranty period but my customer could not come back to us for another 3 months beyond the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything towards replacement do to the reporting date being grater than 24 months. >>>> >>>> I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size. >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Larry Crutcher >>>> Starlight Solar Power Systems >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Thu May 10 19:47:07 2018 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 16:47:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> <710D31BB-94F1-4D31-B20C-76141A15AE56@mavericksolar.com> <215DB8BC-9809-4039-93AE-5003619248AD@solshineenergyalternatives.com> Message-ID: Hey Guys, just throwing this out there... I know these weren't mine (Rolls) but I've seen this happen and in 99% of the cases it's excessive heat. AGM's typically don't enter thermal runaway, like the older 90's and 00's Gels did... I asked earlier about the temp sensors, on these they should be mounted about 1/2 way down on one of the long sides. The side mount sensors are best as the temp variance between the side and the top terminal can be as much as 20 degrees... this is going to cause over charging, and thus too much heat every time. Here is a FLIR shot of a battery bank while under charge: You can see the difference in the temps between the posts, and the side of the battery bank. Most battery companies will tell you that side mounted sensors, in the warmest location of the bank is where you want your BTS. Another issue with these, for for that matter any VRLA battery is gassing. When they are charging, even in a 55F room they will get warm, typically in Bulk/Absorb about 20-25F higher, in hot (Above 77F) environment this often can be as high as 90-120F. when this happens the valves on the battery "burp". If you have tie down straps going across the top of the battery this will restrict the valve from opening, thus ballooning out the chassis or jar. In this case it's better to lay them on their long, or short sides, than to let them stand vertically. AGM's and GEL's will gas, especially when heated above 77F, when you are charging is when most of that heat is going to build up. Last but no least spacing between the batteries is important, it's a good idea to have 1-2 inches of space between them at all times. Had a case recently that I did a site visit on battery bank on a boat in Florida. All the batteries (8) boiled out and cooked... same type of damage. When I got to the site all the batteries had severe heating damage to the plates. Upon inspection of the programming I found that the Float set point was set to the Absorb Voltage, and the BTS has been eaten by a animal of some sort... When that occurred it shorted the BTS on the inverter making the inverter think that the battery temp was -2C... this caused the Inverter to charge at over 31 volts for 3 months before the owner found the battery and had cooked... Just saying... when this happens it's often a battery temp issue, and not a battery issue... and yes, I would have said that even if I didn't work for a battery manufacture. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 4:18 PM, Michael Morningstar < mjmorningstar at gmail.com> wrote: > The picture shows a group of new Fullriver batteries destined for a > different site, and the ruined Crown’s I had just pulled out. They are > sitting in the back of my truck. Batteries were in a basement that stays > 55F year round. Temp sensors for both the Magnum inverter and Midnite > Classic 150. Small array(600 watts). 2/0 cables. Absorb time 1.5 hours. > Factory recommended charging parameters. Tight connections. My first > thermal runaway after hundreds and hundreds of battery bank installs too. > My local distributor has been pushing Crowns and their great warranty so I > reluctantly gave them a shot. Lead acids and AGMs. I’m not impressed with > either. Nor their warranty process. > > I > > On May 10, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Rick Brown solshineenergyalternatives.com> wrote: > > I’m inclined to agree with Maverick. Mixing old and new batteries is not > recommended. Differing internal resistance coupled with potentially extreme > temps can lead to thermal runaway. > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > On May 10, 2018, at 6:02 PM, "maverick at mavericksolar.com" < > maverick at mavericksolar.com> wrote: > > Looks like a mix of old and new Batteries in a cabinet too small to drain > excessive heat gain. Was the cabinet shaded? Or exposed to direct sun? Temp > sensor on charging source? > What size interconnect cables were used? > Was it a bus system? > Absorb with End Amps was turned on? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 10, 2018, at 4:41 PM, Michael Morningstar > wrote: > > > One year old. Well looked after system. > On May 10, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < > larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > > Wrenches, > > Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and > thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked > every charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No > cause found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power > in her RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the > batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the > 23rd month after installation. > > After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that > another set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they > had fused together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too > peculiar to know of two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 > year warranty period but my customer could not come back to us for another > 3 months beyond the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything > towards replacement do to the reporting date being grater than 24 months. > > I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or > Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size. > > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 209307 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 218576 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 507473 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu May 10 18:59:46 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 15:59:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown In-Reply-To: <01e401d3e8a8$9b2ec640$d18c52c0$@solarwindworks.com> References: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> <01e401d3e8a8$9b2ec640$d18c52c0$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: Lead melts at 621. Plastics melt depending on the type between 212f and 491f ( for the most common ones) http://education.seattlepi.com/hot-water-melt-plastic-3626.html But melting and being able to be deformed is very different. jay peltz power > On May 10, 2018, at 2:48 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: > > Wow, Melting point : 621.4°F . > > Chris Worcester > Solar Wind Works > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Office 530-582-4503 > Cell 530-448-9692 > Fax 530-582-4603 > www.solarwindworks.com > chris at solarwindworks.com > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Starlight Solar Power Systems > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 1:43 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown > > Wrenches, > > Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked every charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No cause found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power in her RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the 23rd month after installation. > > After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that another set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they had fused together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too peculiar to know of two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 year warranty period but my customer could not come back to us for another 3 months beyond the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything towards replacement do to the reporting date being grater than 24 months. > > I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size. > > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Fri May 11 10:48:17 2018 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 14:48:17 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Boy Display Window Message-ID: We have installed quite a few SB's over the years and are seeing a growing number of fogged over display lenses. We've tried headlight polish with limited success. Other than purchasing a new lid from SMA does anyone have another solution to restoring or replacing the window? Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri May 11 13:13:19 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 11:13:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> <710D31BB-94F1-4D31-B20C-76141A15AE56@mavericksolar.com> <215DB8BC-9809-4039-93AE-5003619248AD@solshineenergyalternatives.com> Message-ID: <1777bad3-93aa-7518-ec8a-c2267cd1f989@solarray.com> Many installers and customers seem over occupied with sulfation from under charging, but I actually think over heating is the not so silent killer we really need to be worrying about.  I've had severely undercharged, but cool batteries last much longer than they should, and I have seen over insulated, over heated batteries die a messy acid soaked death. I've also seen an AGM with C100 charge rate (trickle charge right?) climb to 16 v, and start gassing as Steve mentioned. If I had added some insulation around the battery and left it long enough, I think we would have had the same melt down. Also Steve's comments on the BTS are very important.  Temp Compensation can do more harm than good, if the BTS is damaged or not installed in the right location.  I only recommend BTS, if the room temperature is going to vary more than 30 deg F.  I've seen all sorts of odd behavior over the years, that was cured by disconnecting the BTS. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/10/18 5:47 PM, Steve Higgins wrote: > Hey Guys, just throwing this out there... I know these weren't mine > (Rolls) but I've seen this happen and in 99% of the cases it's > excessive heat. > > AGM's typically don't enter thermal runaway, like the older 90's and > 00's Gels did... > > I asked earlier about the temp sensors, on these they should be > mounted about 1/2 way down on one of the long sides.  The side mount > sensors are best as the temp variance between the side and the top > terminal can be as much as 20 degrees... this is going to cause over > charging, and thus too much heat every time. > > Here is a FLIR shot of a battery bank while under charge: > > > You can see the difference in the temps between the posts, and the > side of the battery bank. > Most battery companies will tell you that side mounted sensors, in the > warmest location of the bank is where you want your BTS. > > Another issue with these, for for that matter any VRLA battery is > gassing.  When they are charging, even in a 55F room they will get > warm, typically in Bulk/Absorb about 20-25F higher, in hot (Above 77F) > environment this often can be as high as 90-120F. when this happens > the valves on the battery "burp".    If you have tie down straps going > across the top of the battery this will restrict the valve from > opening, thus ballooning out the chassis or jar.   In this case it's > better to lay them on their long, or short sides, than to let them > stand vertically. > > AGM's and GEL's will gas, especially when heated above 77F, when you > are charging is when most of that heat is going to build up. > > Last but no least spacing between the batteries is important, it's a > good idea to have 1-2 inches of space between them at all times. > > Had a case recently that I did a site visit on battery bank on a boat > in Florida. > > All the batteries (8) boiled out and cooked... same type of damage.    > When I got to the site all the batteries had severe heating damage to > the plates. > > Upon inspection of the programming I found that the Float set point > was set to the Absorb Voltage, and the BTS has been eaten by a animal > of some sort...   When that occurred it shorted the BTS on the > inverter making the inverter think that the battery temp was -2C... > this caused the Inverter to charge at over 31 volts for 3 months > before the owner found the battery and had cooked... > > > > > Just saying... when this happens it's often a battery temp issue, and > not a battery issue... and yes, I would have said that even if I > didn't work for a battery manufacture. > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t+1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f+1.902.597.8447 esteve at surrette.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only > for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or > privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other > use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information > is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the > sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 4:18 PM, Michael Morningstar > > wrote: > > The picture shows a group of new Fullriver batteries destined for > a different site, and the ruined Crown’s I had just pulled out. > They are sitting in the back of my truck. Batteries were in a > basement that stays 55F year round. Temp sensors for both the > Magnum inverter and Midnite Classic 150. Small array(600 watts). > 2/0 cables. Absorb time 1.5 hours. Factory recommended charging > parameters. Tight connections. My first thermal runaway after > hundreds and hundreds of battery bank installs too. My local > distributor has been pushing Crowns and their great warranty so I > reluctantly gave them a shot. Lead acids and AGMs. I’m not > impressed with either. Nor their warranty process. > > I >> On May 10, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Rick Brown >> > > wrote: >> >> I’m inclined to agree with Maverick. Mixing old and new batteries >> is not recommended. Differing internal resistance coupled with >> potentially extreme temps can lead to thermal runaway. >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com >> >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> >> On May 10, 2018, at 6:02 PM, "maverick at mavericksolar.com >> " > > wrote: >> >>> Looks like a mix of old and new Batteries in a cabinet too small >>> to drain excessive heat gain. Was the cabinet shaded? Or exposed >>> to direct sun? Temp sensor on charging source? >>> What size interconnect cables were used? >>> Was it a bus system? >>> Absorb with End Amps was turned on? >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On May 10, 2018, at 4:41 PM, Michael Morningstar >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> One year old. Well looked after system. >>>> On May 10, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 >>>>> years and thousands of battery systems installed. These were >>>>> in an RV. I checked every charge source and all are within >>>>> specified charging parameters. No cause found. The owner is a >>>>> single elderly lady that uses very little power in her RV and >>>>> spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the >>>>> batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This >>>>> was i the 23rd month after installation. >>>>> >>>>> After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told >>>>> me that another set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month >>>>> earlier and that they had fused together just like these. That >>>>> is extreme heat. It is too peculiar to know of two similar >>>>> events. This meltdown happened within the 2 year warranty >>>>> period but my customer could not come back to us for another 3 >>>>> months beyond the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow >>>>> anything towards replacement do to the reporting date being >>>>> grater than 24 months. >>>>> >>>>> I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure >>>>> with Rolls or Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> >>>>> Larry Crutcher >>>>> Starlight Solar Power Systems >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 507473 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 209307 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 218576 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri May 11 13:19:27 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 10:19:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown In-Reply-To: <710D31BB-94F1-4D31-B20C-76141A15AE56@mavericksolar.com> References: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> <710D31BB-94F1-4D31-B20C-76141A15AE56@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Both were new, same date batteries. Currents are so low there is no heat problem. Even Charging at 70 Amps does not produce much heat even after a few hours. The batteries did expand into the containing box. Note that with many hundreds of similar installations, this is the only one that had this heat event. Cables were 2/0 between and to the bus bar. No terminal heating took place. Absorb ends after time only. Also, the alternator charges while driving at 13.9 volts. Neither is a problem since current will drop to about 0.7 after saturation. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On May 10, 2018, at 3:02 PM, maverick at mavericksolar.com wrote: Looks like a mix of old and new Batteries in a cabinet too small to drain excessive heat gain. Was the cabinet shaded? Or exposed to direct sun? Temp sensor on charging source? What size interconnect cables were used? Was it a bus system? Absorb with End Amps was turned on? Sent from my iPhone On May 10, 2018, at 4:41 PM, Michael Morningstar > wrote: > > One year old. Well looked after system. > On May 10, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked every charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No cause found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power in her RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the 23rd month after installation. >> >> After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that another set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they had fused together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too peculiar to know of two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 year warranty period but my customer could not come back to us for another 3 months beyond the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything towards replacement do to the reporting date being grater than 24 months. >> >> I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri May 11 13:21:01 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 10:21:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown In-Reply-To: <215DB8BC-9809-4039-93AE-5003619248AD@solshineenergyalternatives.com> References: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> <710D31BB-94F1-4D31-B20C-76141A15AE56@mavericksolar.com> <215DB8BC-9809-4039-93AE-5003619248AD@solshineenergyalternatives.com> Message-ID: <02457732-DDED-4AC4-BE2E-E1CEA9FF70A6@starlightsolar.com> I agree….that is something we have never done. These batteries are same date and both new when installed. Larry On May 10, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Rick Brown wrote: I’m inclined to agree with Maverick. Mixing old and new batteries is not recommended. Differing internal resistance coupled with potentially extreme temps can lead to thermal runaway. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 On May 10, 2018, at 6:02 PM, "maverick at mavericksolar.com " > wrote: > Looks like a mix of old and new Batteries in a cabinet too small to drain excessive heat gain. Was the cabinet shaded? Or exposed to direct sun? Temp sensor on charging source? > What size interconnect cables were used? > Was it a bus system? > Absorb with End Amps was turned on? > > Sent from my iPhone > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri May 11 13:32:01 2018 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 10:32:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disappearing Thread Message-ID: <14b47e3e-6e50-6ca1-586b-5eac827a3606@berkeleysolar.com> Could have sworn there was a thread here about melted batteries, but it not showing in my email client anymore. From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri May 11 13:34:19 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 10:34:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <7F5A9EB6-E0D0-4353-8D70-0209AE421819@starlightsolar.com> Here is a photo of before I removed the deformed battery. The Magnum temp sensor was on one battery and the PV controller sensor on the other. I do not believe anything external caused this failure. Perhaps a shorted cell allowed the charger to pass high current continuously. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On May 10, 2018, at 1:59 PM, Steve Higgins wrote: Larry, Do you have any pic's of them installed? That would help a lot in getting an idea of how/why these failed. I do have two questions for you... Were there tie down straps over the tops of the batteries? Where was the temp sensor? Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <> <> <> <> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 1:42 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems > wrote: Wrenches, Attached is a photo of my first thermal runaway event after 17 years and thousands of battery systems installed. These were in an RV. I checked every charge source and all are within specified charging parameters. No cause found. The owner is a single elderly lady that uses very little power in her RV and spend most of the time on shore power. She reported that the batteries were dead when she unplugged from shore power. This was i the 23rd month after installation. After I reported this to my Fullriver distributor, they told me that another set of DC400-6 had melted down just 1 month earlier and that they had fused together just like these. That is extreme heat. It is too peculiar to know of two similar events. This meltdown happened within the 2 year warranty period but my customer could not come back to us for another 3 months beyond the warranty period. Fullriver would not allow anything towards replacement do to the reporting date being grater than 24 months. I would like to know has anyone else had a similar failure with Rolls or Fullriver AGM batteries, specifically L16 size. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0608 (1).jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 74513 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri May 11 13:35:41 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 10:35:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disappearing Thread In-Reply-To: <14b47e3e-6e50-6ca1-586b-5eac827a3606@berkeleysolar.com> References: <14b47e3e-6e50-6ca1-586b-5eac827a3606@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: I have sent 4 replies and none are showing. Larry On May 11, 2018, at 10:32 AM, Mark Frye wrote: Could have sworn there was a thread here about melted batteries, but it not showing in my email client anymore. From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri May 11 13:44:49 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 10:44:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disappearing Thread In-Reply-To: References: <14b47e3e-6e50-6ca1-586b-5eac827a3606@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <1DBE6340-6056-4F19-94BE-B998873429FD@starlightsolar.com> Sorry…to fast on reply…I have received the messages I sent. Larry Crutcher On May 11, 2018, at 10:35 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: I have sent 4 replies and none are showing. Larry On May 11, 2018, at 10:32 AM, Mark Frye wrote: Could have sworn there was a thread here about melted batteries, but it not showing in my email client anymore. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri May 11 13:40:33 2018 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 17:40:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Insight Portal issues FYI Message-ID: <081b0d05a8014c9a8eb4a7a70c08a49f@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> In case anyone is wondering why the Conext portal data has been screwed up for a week, and as of this moment most sites are offline: " The data processing side of Conext Insight is having troubles with the current workload. The data is not lost, but it can take a significant amount of time for some packets to be completely processed. If a single packet takes too long to process, it is rescheduled for a random time in the future in the hopes that the workload on the machine is lower and the packet will be successfully processed. It appears that some packets are being rescheduled repeatedly and taking a week to land in a window when they can be successfully processed. The design team has identified this issue and is addressing it at the moment by simplifying the layout of the database tables to speed up processing. This process requires that all existing data in the database be restructured to the new table layout. As this is a very large and long running transaction, packet processing is effectively on hold for the rest of the day. It should begin to clear up in a few hours as the backlog of packets is processed through." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Fri May 11 12:33:01 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 06:33:01 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Boy Display Window In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Toothpaste. On Friday, May 11, 2018, Wayne Irwin wrote: > We have installed quite a few SB's over the years and are seeing a growing > number of fogged over display lenses. > > We've tried headlight polish with limited success. > > Other than purchasing a new lid from SMA does anyone have another solution > to restoring or replacing the window? > > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > 352 316-1637 Cell > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri May 11 14:31:18 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 11:31:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown In-Reply-To: References: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <624FD81A-C42D-4913-B54F-0C5E9375D2EA@starlightsolar.com> Steve, Here is another similar installation. There is air space on top of and some between the battery. Many of our installations have the AGM batteries completely sealed in a box. 17 years of installing battery systems like this and not one single problem. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On May 10, 2018, at 1:59 PM, Steve Higgins wrote: Larry, Do you have any pic's of them installed? That would help a lot in getting an idea of how/why these failed. I do have two questions for you... Were there tie down straps over the tops of the batteries? Where was the temp sensor? Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: P1090046.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 79075 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri May 11 14:39:30 2018 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 11:39:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fullriver Battery meltdown In-Reply-To: <624FD81A-C42D-4913-B54F-0C5E9375D2EA@starlightsolar.com> References: <33EA692F-2E08-4F36-B4FD-E8F7C888ED1B@starlightsolar.com> <624FD81A-C42D-4913-B54F-0C5E9375D2EA@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Larry, Thanks for the pics... AGM's, because they are valve regulated, do need a bit more airflow around them. Remember there isn't the vast amount of electrolyte in a flooded cells AGM's they are starved electrolyte batteries the only electrolyte is what is in the Glass Matting. Has FR seen these pics? If so they may not like the lack of airflow. I'd talk with Full River, and ask them to do a tear down on these, they may or may not... See if you can get them to cover if they find a manufacturing defect internally. The tear down should tell them/and you if the temps for some reason just got too hot, or if indeed it was a manufacturing defect that caused them both to swell. It'll probably cost you shipping one way, but might be worth it if indeed they find a defect. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 11:31 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Steve, > > Here is another similar installation. There is air space on top of and > some between the battery. Many of our installations have the AGM batteries > completely sealed in a box. 17 years of installing battery systems like > this and not one single problem. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > (928) 342-9103 > > > > > > On May 10, 2018, at 1:59 PM, Steve Higgins wrote: > > Larry, > > Do you have any pic's of them installed? > > That would help a lot in getting an idea of how/why these failed. > > I do have two questions for you... > > Were there tie down straps over the tops of the batteries? > > Where was the temp sensor? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: P1090046.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 79075 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri May 11 15:04:48 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 13:04:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Boy Display Window In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006001d3e95a$f02d1090$d08731b0$@solarwork.com> Toothpaste is a good option & also there is a product that re-establishes the clarity to headlight lenses at your local auto parts store. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 10:33 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Boy Display Window Toothpaste. On Friday, May 11, 2018, Wayne Irwin > wrote: We have installed quite a few SB's over the years and are seeing a growing number of fogged over display lenses. We've tried headlight polish with limited success. Other than purchasing a new lid from SMA does anyone have another solution to restoring or replacing the window? Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri May 11 15:48:26 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 09:48:26 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Boy Display Window In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wayne We use automotive grade polisher after a run with 1200 then 1800 the 2400 wet sand paper, you must clean the surface before attempting to polish and then you need a powered cotton wheel, that works for us Jerry On Fri, May 11, 2018, 4:48 AM Wayne Irwin wrote: > We have installed quite a few SB's over the years and are seeing a growing > number of fogged over display lenses. > > We've tried headlight polish with limited success. > > Other than purchasing a new lid from SMA does anyone have another solution > to restoring or replacing the window? > > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > 352 316-1637 Cell > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri May 11 16:00:20 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 14:00:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Boy Display Window In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've also used some special 3M sanding pads that go up to 10,000 grit.  They are used for polishing airplane wind shields.  Enough elbow grease, you can get any result you want. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/11/18 1:48 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wayne > We use automotive grade polisher after a run with 1200 then 1800 the > 2400 wet sand paper, you must clean the surface before attempting to > polish and then you need a powered cotton wheel, that works for us > Jerry > > On Fri, May 11, 2018, 4:48 AM Wayne Irwin > wrote: > > We have installed quite a few SB's over the years and are seeing a > growing number of fogged over display lenses. > > We've tried headlight polish with limited success. > > Other than purchasing a new lid from SMA does anyone have another > solution to restoring or replacing the window? > > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > 352 316-1637 Cell > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If > you are not the intended recipient and have received this message > in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me > immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your > computer system. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri May 11 19:52:47 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 19:52:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Boy Display Window In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I now put HVAC foil tape over all windows to keep the sun off when I install. On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 4:00 PM, Ray wrote: > I've also used some special 3M sanding pads that go up to 10,000 grit. > They are used for polishing airplane wind shields. Enough elbow grease, > you can get any result you want. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 5/11/18 1:48 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wayne > We use automotive grade polisher after a run with 1200 then 1800 the 2400 > wet sand paper, you must clean the surface before attempting to polish and > then you need a powered cotton wheel, that works for us > Jerry > > On Fri, May 11, 2018, 4:48 AM Wayne Irwin > wrote: > >> We have installed quite a few SB's over the years and are seeing a >> growing number of fogged over display lenses. >> >> We've tried headlight polish with limited success. >> >> Other than purchasing a new lid from SMA does anyone have another >> solution to restoring or replacing the window? >> >> >> Wayne Irwin, >> President >> License #CVC56695 >> State Licensed Solar Contractor >> Pure Energy Solar International Inc. >> Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com >> http://PureEnergySolar.com >> http://SolarChargingStation.net >> 352 377-6527 Office >> 352 336-3299 Fax >> 352 316-1637 Cell >> >> The Sun Is Always Shining! >> >> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are >> not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use >> or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail >> and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat May 12 10:25:21 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 07:25:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Boy Display Window In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is all the polishing done on the outside of the display?  You'd think the folks at SMA could have used glass.  I've had my local glass guy cut me special sized UV/automotive glass that I then secure to the inside of the indentation around the display window with 3M 2-sided outdoor-rated tape, costs ~$12.  Those have only been out there for about 5 years, I'll report back in another 5 years .             I also just started using a UV rated window 'film' which is similar to the that little strip of plastic you peel off the display of an SBX.0-40 after installation.....maybe we should leave that factory plastic strip on!?             Occasionally , we go nuts and build a very well vented cabinet around it.  In the pic, that lower board hinges down over display Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 5/11/2018 4:52 PM, Chris Mason wrote: > I now put HVAC foil tape over all windows to keep the sun off when I > install. > > On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 4:00 PM, Ray > wrote: > > I've also used some special 3M sanding pads that go up to 10,000 > grit.  They are used for polishing airplane wind shields.  Enough > elbow grease, you can get any result you want. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Hansen inverters, shade (9).JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 275741 bytes Desc: not available URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Sat May 12 10:44:50 2018 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 14:44:50 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Boy Display Window In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: That's pretty fancy. Thanks for the tips on the custom cut glass. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of frenergy Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2018 10:25:21 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Boy Display Window Is all the polishing done on the outside of the display? You'd think the folks at SMA could have used glass. I've had my local glass guy cut me special sized UV/automotive glass that I then secure to the inside of the indentation around the display window with 3M 2-sided outdoor-rated tape, costs ~$12. Those have only been out there for about 5 years, I'll report back in another 5 years . I also just started using a UV rated window 'film' which is similar to the that little strip of plastic you peel off the display of an SBX.0-40 after installation.....maybe we should leave that factory plastic strip on!? Occasionally , we go nuts and build a very well vented cabinet around it. In the pic, that lower board hinges down over display Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 5/11/2018 4:52 PM, Chris Mason wrote: I now put HVAC foil tape over all windows to keep the sun off when I install. On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 4:00 PM, Ray > wrote: I've also used some special 3M sanding pads that go up to 10,000 grit. They are used for polishing airplane wind shields. Enough elbow grease, you can get any result you want. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 -- [https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif] Virus-free. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louis at solarcowboyz.com Sat May 12 11:42:36 2018 From: louis at solarcowboyz.com (louis at solarcowboyz.com) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 08:42:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Boy Display Window Message-ID: <20180512084236.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.5c653a1586.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Sun May 13 11:09:30 2018 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 11:09:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Squirrel Guards for Solarworld 2.0 Frames In-Reply-To: <7B2A2B08-9BD9-48D3-B503-43756996AF4E@skyfireenergy.com> References: <7B2A2B08-9BD9-48D3-B503-43756996AF4E@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <000001d3eacc$6715b460$35411d20$@icloud.com> Snapnrack makes an “add-a-lip” mount for these situations. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn Kilburn Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2018 5:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Squirrel Guards for Solarworld 2.0 Frames We've used the Solatrim on one larger system. Installed it fall of '17. Time will tell if the adhesive can withstand our temperatures swings of 30degC to -40degC Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 On May 8, 2018, at 9:50 AM, Nik Ponzio, Building Energy wrote: We need to add squirrel guards to an older system with Solarworld panels. The 2.0 frames are not compatible with the snapNrack or spiffy solar guards that we have used in the past. Any other products that we should consider? Has anyone used the SolaTrim with adhesive attachment? http://solatrim.com/ -- Nik Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 802-859-3384 ext.115 http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Sun May 13 11:21:57 2018 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 11:21:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test Message-ID: <000d01d3eace$229ddd10$67d99730$@icloud.com> I now have two systems with older Sanyos(Panasonic), circa 2004, which consistently fail the inverter (Solaredge) startup Insolation test in wet weather. Usually 200 - 550 kohms, just below the inverters 600k limit. Confirmed by my meggering. I discovered this after convincing the owners to upgrade the inverters from old SMA's which don't test for it. Anyone else see this issue in older panels, in particular Sanyos? Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 27th Anniversary 1991-2018 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun May 13 14:51:20 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 08:51:20 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test In-Reply-To: <000d01d3eace$229ddd10$67d99730$@icloud.com> References: <000d01d3eace$229ddd10$67d99730$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Kirk I dont know if you know this but Panisonic will warranty the old Sanyos, just got this from a rep last week.the issue you are having may be due to the failing of the back sheet under the frame edge. Jerry On Sun, May 13, 2018, 6:04 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > I now have two systems with older Sanyos(Panasonic), circa 2004, which > consistently fail the inverter (Solaredge) startup Insolation test in wet > weather. Usually 200 – 550 kohms, just below the inverters 600k limit. > Confirmed by my meggering. I discovered this after convincing the owners to > upgrade the inverters from old SMA’s which don’t test for it. Anyone else > see this issue in older panels, in particular Sanyos? > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 27th Anniversary 1991-2018* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun May 13 19:21:50 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 17:21:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika energy equipment Message-ID: <0A09D4AB-E1E1-41AD-9931-DB3309E47E91@gmail.com> HI All, Any of you installing the Pika equipment? Thoughts and is there retail pricing that can be shared? thanks jay peltz power From solareagle at solareagle.com Mon May 14 03:48:41 2018 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 00:48:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test In-Reply-To: References: <000d01d3eace$229ddd10$67d99730$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <560689B5-D220-4143-AFCA-5A3C0580744E@solareagle.com> I have several dozen older Sanyo’s installed from that period. Are there any obvious physical degradations to look for or specific tests that can show issues? I don’t have a megger but have two systems installed in grid tied systems and a couple off-grid. No performance complaints as yet. Ron > On May 13, 2018, at 11:51 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Kirk > I dont know if you know this but Panisonic will warranty the old Sanyos, just got this from a rep last week.the issue you are having may be due to the failing of the back sheet under the frame edge. > Jerry > > On Sun, May 13, 2018, 6:04 AM Kirk Herander > wrote: > I now have two systems with older Sanyos(Panasonic), circa 2004, which consistently fail the inverter (Solaredge) startup Insolation test in wet weather. Usually 200 – 550 kohms, just below the inverters 600k limit. Confirmed by my meggering. I discovered this after convincing the owners to upgrade the inverters from old SMA’s which don’t test for it. Anyone else see this issue in older panels, in particular Sanyos? > > > > Kirk Herander > > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > > Celebrating our 27th Anniversary 1991-2018 > > www.vermontsolarnow.com > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Mon May 14 17:59:55 2018 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 14:59:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test Message-ID: <00ed01d3ebce$e564b890$b02e29b0$@solarwindworks.com> We did a number of Sanyo HIP195, 200, and 210 installs, so far we’ve had a few failures showing up as backsheet bubbles. Some of the bubbles were so big that the wafer fell away from the glass! Here’s a couple photos. Didn’t think Panasonic would take care of this, after an exhausting warranty procedure that drew on for months on one system… their Japanese engineering dept said no to our request for replacements on that one eventually. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ron Young Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 12:49 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test I have several dozen older Sanyo’s installed from that period. Are there any obvious physical degradations to look for or specific tests that can show issues? I don’t have a megger but have two systems installed in grid tied systems and a couple off-grid. No performance complaints as yet. Ron On May 13, 2018, at 11:51 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Kirk I dont know if you know this but Panisonic will warranty the old Sanyos, just got this from a rep last week.the issue you are having may be due to the failing of the back sheet under the frame edge. Jerry On Sun, May 13, 2018, 6:04 AM Kirk Herander wrote: I now have two systems with older Sanyos(Panasonic), circa 2004, which consistently fail the inverter (Solaredge) startup Insolation test in wet weather. Usually 200 – 550 kohms, just below the inverters 600k limit. Confirmed by my meggering. I discovered this after convincing the owners to upgrade the inverters from old SMA’s which don’t test for it. Anyone else see this issue in older panels, in particular Sanyos? Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 27th Anniversary 1991-2018 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20161112_122749.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 208051 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20161112_150328.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 76927 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Dan at Foxfire-Energy.com Mon May 14 20:49:05 2018 From: Dan at Foxfire-Energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 20:49:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Refurbishing a Bergey VCS 10? Message-ID: Any advice on a place that to get a Bergey VCS 10 refurbished? Tks Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com > From corey at joule-energy.com Thu May 17 18:19:05 2018 From: corey at joule-energy.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 17:19:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Cell Temperature Variation Message-ID: On a recent utility-scale PV installation we noticed a strange phenomenon on a single string on a single inverter. An IV curve (attached) reveals that the measured performance characteristics for this string (solid line) are significantly less than the expected values (dotted line). For reference, the ambient temperature was 31°C and the irradiance was 1010 W/m². The phenomenon that more so caught our attention is apparent on a thermal image (also attached) of the modules in this string. For lack of a better term I would describe the distribution of cell temperatures as resembling a "checkerboard" or "scattershot" (random) pattern, ranging between roughly 55°C and 70°C. Interestingly this phenomenon was only apparent while the inverter was operating, i.e. with the inverter turned off the modules revert to a much more uniform temperature distribution nearer to 55°C, instead varying by only a couple degrees across the entire module/string. There was no apparent physical damage to the modules. Can anyone offer any suggestions about what might be causing this phenomenon? -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IV Curve.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 156622 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Thermal Image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 95087 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mikek at spiritsolar.net Thu May 17 19:47:10 2018 From: mikek at spiritsolar.net (Mike Kocsmiersky) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 19:47:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Cell Temperature Variation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08f601d3ee39$601e2050$205a60f0$@net> A dampening of the knee of the IV curve would be indicative of higher series resistance. The higher series resistance would also increase cell temperatures as shown in the thermo image. The cooling off of the cells under open circuit conditions would also correlate to the higher series resistance, whereas there would be no current flowing generating heat through the cell resistance under open circuit conditions. The question then becomes why would some cells have high resistance. Could be cell fractures, albeit odd that they would be random within the module, and also random in the group of modules shown. I’m guessing it was only this one string, perhaps this crate of modules was banged up in shipping or something. Here is a link to an article about the relationship between series resistance and fill factor. http://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/solar-cell-operation/series-resistance Mike Kocsmiersky Principal Spirit Solar Inc. (413) 734-1456 From: Corey Shalanski [mailto:corey at joule-energy.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 6:19 PM To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Cell Temperature Variation On a recent utility-scale PV installation we noticed a strange phenomenon on a single string on a single inverter. An IV curve (attached) reveals that the measured performance characteristics for this string (solid line) are significantly less than the expected values (dotted line). For reference, the ambient temperature was 31°C and the irradiance was 1010 W/m². The phenomenon that more so caught our attention is apparent on a thermal image (also attached) of the modules in this string. For lack of a better term I would describe the distribution of cell temperatures as resembling a "checkerboard" or "scattershot" (random) pattern, ranging between roughly 55°C and 70°C. Interestingly this phenomenon was only apparent while the inverter was operating, i.e. with the inverter turned off the modules revert to a much more uniform temperature distribution nearer to 55°C, instead varying by only a couple degrees across the entire module/string. There was no apparent physical damage to the modules. Can anyone offer any suggestions about what might be causing this phenomenon? -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Thu May 17 20:07:17 2018 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 00:07:17 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Cell Temperature Variation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Corey, I have been studying IR diagnostics quite a lot, but I haven't had a whole lot of opportunity to "get my hands dirty" with it, so I'm not sure how much help I'll be. I would like to know how many modules are in each string. I'm going to share some random thoughts on this, but nothing here is at all conclusive, and if anyone can correct some flaws in my logic, I'd love to hear it! It doesn't look like a simple, obvious problem. Your curve trace has a predicted Isc, with a dampening current to the knee, it has a sharp knee, then it has a low voltage at Vmp, and it stays really low all the way to Voc. A high series resistance would explain the dampening current to the knee, but it wouldn't explain the low voltage at all. If there was high resistance in the cells, you should see signs of diodes activating unless all of the cell groups had relatively uniform resistance. Generally, the hot cells in the checkerboard pattern are underproducing compared to the cooler cells. Because they can't pass on as much current, they are actually wasting some of the energy that the other cells are producing. This wasted energy turns into heat. The often times, they waste more energy than they are producing themselves. Alternatively, there could be other issues (or damage) at the hot cells. The fact that the checkerboard pattern goes away when you shut off the inverter may be helpful. If you short out a module, it will almost always look like a checkerboard in an IR shot, and if a diode shorts out, that third of the module will generally look like a checkerboard. This is the confusing part... Because the checkerboard appearance goes away, that would most likely indicate that it's not an issue of a short circuit failure (such as short-circuited diodes, or short-circuited modules). On the other hand, your curve trace looks somewhat like what you'd expect if you had some short-circuited diodes. It looks like you have a calculated Voc of around ≈860, and a measured Voc of around ≈725. That's about 84%. My initial first guess based on this curve trace alone would have been that perhaps roughly 16% of the cell groups might be shorted out. So if you had 20 modules per string, that would be 30 cell groups (assuming 3 diodes per cell group). With these hypotheticals, you would have somewhere around 5 shorted cell groups. Now that I'm looking at this closer, the knee of the curve is very quite sharp. I wonder if this could be caused by a higher resistance short somewhere out in the array (or in a conduit somewhere). (Perhaps this could be from compromised insulation or water intrusion somewhere??) Assuming that this isn't an intermittent problem, this would be easy to test under Voc. Just take a good DC amp clamp into the array while the inverter is shut down, and test the PV wires several places to try to find current in the array. Under this hypothesis, as the curve tracer starts pulling current, and the measured voltage falls from Voc, it gets to a point where suddenly, the fault isn't passing as much current. This would cause the sharp knee on the curve trace. As the voltage gets lower, the current at the fault would also get lower and the measured curve would increasingly get closer to the predicted curve. This model would also explain why the checkerboard phenomenon goes away when you turn off the inverter... it would be because the current going across the fault would be much lower than Isc, so when it's resting, there isn't enough current flowing to produce the checkerboard effect. Using this hypothesis, the checkerboard phenomenon might not be indicating a problem in the modules at all. If there is a high resistance short somewhere in the array, then that would cause the actual current in the modules to be above the predicted Imp because the current is being lost before it gets to the inverter. Because nearly all modules get the checkerboard phenomenon at Isc, it wouldn't be surprising if many normal modules would also get the phenomenon if they're operating between Imp and Isc. Again, take these thoughts with a grain of salt. If anyone sees somewhere that I'm going wrong, I'd love to hear from you! Hopefully, something here helps! Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Corey Shalanski Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 4:19 PM To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Cell Temperature Variation On a recent utility-scale PV installation we noticed a strange phenomenon on a single string on a single inverter. An IV curve (attached) reveals that the measured performance characteristics for this string (solid line) are significantly less than the expected values (dotted line). For reference, the ambient temperature was 31°C and the irradiance was 1010 W/m². The phenomenon that more so caught our attention is apparent on a thermal image (also attached) of the modules in this string. For lack of a better term I would describe the distribution of cell temperatures as resembling a "checkerboard" or "scattershot" (random) pattern, ranging between roughly 55°C and 70°C. Interestingly this phenomenon was only apparent while the inverter was operating, i.e. with the inverter turned off the modules revert to a much more uniform temperature distribution nearer to 55°C, instead varying by only a couple degrees across the entire module/string. There was no apparent physical damage to the modules. Can anyone offer any suggestions about what might be causing this phenomenon? -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Thu May 17 19:52:28 2018 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 16:52:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Cell Temperature Variation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29f03be3-fac7-231a-0e09-b83557d391d9@midnitesolar.com> I've checked several PV modules under load in past years and they all seem to do this. Just cell mis-match I was guessing. boB On 5/17/2018 3:19 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > On a recent utility-scale PV installation we noticed a strange > phenomenon on a single string on a single inverter. An IV curve > (attached) reveals that the measured performance characteristics for > this string (solid line) are significantly less than the expected > values (dotted line). For reference, the ambient temperature was 31°C > and the irradiance was 1010 W/m². > > The phenomenon that more so caught our attention is apparent on a > thermal image (also attached) of the modules in this string. For lack > of a better term I would describe the distribution of cell > temperatures as resembling a "checkerboard" or "scattershot" (random) > pattern, ranging between roughly 55°C and 70°C. Interestingly this > phenomenon was only apparent while the inverter was operating, i.e. > with the inverter turned off the modules revert to a much more uniform > temperature distribution nearer to 55°C, instead varying by only a > couple degrees across the entire module/string. > > There was no apparent physical damage to the modules. > > Can anyone offer any suggestions about what might be causing this > phenomenon? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Joule Energy > New Orleans, LA > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu May 17 20:14:27 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 17:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Cell Temperature Variation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <453e6d9e59af37b9f0ca917b9eaa0876.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Corey, What make of panel please. Forgive if I missed it... Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Corey, > > I have been studying IR diagnostics quite a lot, but I haven't had a whole > lot of opportunity to "get my hands dirty" with it, so I'm not sure how > much help I'll be. I would like to know how many modules are in each > string. > > I'm going to share some random thoughts on this, but nothing here is at > all conclusive, and if anyone can correct some flaws in my logic, I'd love > to hear it! > > It doesn't look like a simple, obvious problem. Your curve trace has a > predicted Isc, with a dampening current to the knee, it has a sharp knee, > then it has a low voltage at Vmp, and it stays really low all the way to > Voc. A high series resistance would explain the dampening current to the > knee, but it wouldn't explain the low voltage at all. If there was high > resistance in the cells, you should see signs of diodes activating unless > all of the cell groups had relatively uniform resistance. > > Generally, the hot cells in the checkerboard pattern are underproducing > compared to the cooler cells. Because they can't pass on as much current, > they are actually wasting some of the energy that the other cells are > producing. This wasted energy turns into heat. The often times, they waste > more energy than they are producing themselves. > > > Alternatively, there could be other issues (or damage) at the hot cells. > > The fact that the checkerboard pattern goes away when you shut off the > inverter may be helpful. If you short out a module, it will almost always > look like a checkerboard in an IR shot, and if a diode shorts out, that > third of the module will generally look like a checkerboard. > > This is the confusing part... Because the checkerboard appearance goes > away, that would most likely indicate that it's not an issue of a short > circuit failure (such as short-circuited diodes, or short-circuited > modules). On the other hand, your curve trace looks somewhat like what > you'd expect if you had some short-circuited diodes. > > It looks like you have a calculated Voc of around —860, and a measured Voc > of around —725. That's about 84%. My initial first guess based on this > curve trace alone would have been that perhaps roughly 16% of the cell > groups might be shorted out. So if you had 20 modules per string, that > would be 30 cell groups (assuming 3 diodes per cell group). With these > hypotheticals, you would have somewhere around 5 shorted cell groups. > > > > > > > > Now that I'm looking at this closer, the knee of the curve is very quite > sharp. I wonder if this could be caused by a higher resistance short > somewhere out in the array (or in a conduit somewhere). (Perhaps this > could be from compromised insulation or water intrusion somewhere??) > Assuming that this isn't an intermittent problem, this would be easy to > test under Voc. Just take a good DC amp clamp into the array while the > inverter is shut down, and test the PV wires several places to try to find > current in the array. > > Under this hypothesis, as the curve tracer starts pulling current, and the > measured voltage falls from Voc, it gets to a point where suddenly, the > fault isn't passing as much current. This would cause the sharp knee on > the curve trace. As the voltage gets lower, the current at the fault would > also get lower and the measured curve would increasingly get closer to the > predicted curve. This model would also explain why the checkerboard > phenomenon goes away when you turn off the inverter... it would be because > the current going across the fault would be much lower than Isc, so when > it's resting, there isn't enough current flowing to produce the > checkerboard effect. Using this hypothesis, the checkerboard phenomenon > might not be indicating a problem in the modules at all. If there is a > high resistance short somewhere in the array, then that would cause the > actual current in the modules to be above the predicted Imp because the > current is being lost before it gets to the inverter. Because nearly all > modules get the checkerboard phenomenon at Isc, it wouldn't be surprising > if many normal modules would also get the phenomenon if they're operating > between Imp and Isc. > > > > Again, take these thoughts with a grain of salt. If anyone sees somewhere > that I'm going wrong, I'd love to hear from you! Hopefully, something here > helps! > > Thanks, > Kienan > > > Maxfield Solar > maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com > (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) > (801) 631-5584 (Cell) > ________________________________ > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of > Corey Shalanski > Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 4:19 PM > To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Cell Temperature Variation > > On a recent utility-scale PV installation we noticed a strange phenomenon > on a single string on a single inverter. An IV curve (attached) reveals > that the measured performance characteristics for this string (solid line) > are significantly less than the expected values (dotted line). For > reference, the ambient temperature was 31œC and the irradiance was 1010 > W/m�. > > The phenomenon that more so caught our attention is apparent on a thermal > image (also attached) of the modules in this string. For lack of a better > term I would describe the distribution of cell temperatures as resembling > a "checkerboard" or "scattershot" (random) pattern, ranging between > roughly 55œC and 70œC. Interestingly this phenomenon was only apparent > while the inverter was operating, i.e. with the inverter turned off the > modules revert to a much more uniform temperature distribution nearer to > 55œC, instead varying by only a couple degrees across the entire > module/string. > > There was no apparent physical damage to the modules. > > Can anyone offer any suggestions about what might be causing this > phenomenon? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Joule Energy > New Orleans, LA > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jamie.greenwired at gmail.com Fri May 18 13:13:54 2018 From: jamie.greenwired at gmail.com (Jamie Rennie) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 10:13:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3-phase with storage In-Reply-To: <79aa5621f5a04541877c9726eceddd5c.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <0fdaf41a5581494bb50d7db263060000@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> <79aa5621f5a04541877c9726eceddd5c.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: Solaredge offers a three-phase battery system option using one of their inverters with LG Chem batteries on one leg. On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 4:35 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > The 2 Lithium batteries I use are HALT tested but it is always a big risk > with a battery that may out live many of the clients. The math on these > batteries has them lasting 30 to 40 years offgrid and that is pretty hard > to believe! Will the BMS fail or the battery? > > If they can afford it I have them do both chemistries! Add a second > inverter and a lithium bank. They get power redundancy and the efficiency > is really amazing to someone living offgrid. Especially in winter of > course! > > From a single Conext XW+ unit to clusters up to 102 kW, > the Conext XW+ is a scalable system that allows for the > integration of solar capacity as required. I like Sunny also:) > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > We are building a similar system presently, 60 kW Sunny Island Inverters, > > 400 kWh battery storage (FLA), dual 100 kW backup generators, 25 kW PV, 5 > > kW microhydro. > > > > Don't know what raw capacity you are looking for, we also use XW > inverters > > for smaller systems but find they don't scale nearly as well as SMA for > > larger power needs. > > > > I'd like to go with Lithium battery tech but it still looks like pricing > > is still 2-3x Flooded Lead Acid and my clients don't tend to want to be > on > > the bleeding edge more looking for field proven reliability. > > > > Kevin > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > > Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf > > Sent: April-17-18 10:48 AM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3-phase with storage > > > > Aloha all. > > I'm on the hunt for workable options for a PV plus storage design for a > > 3-phase 120/208 application. > > And there ain't much out there at present. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > mahalo, > > marco > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Respectfully, Jamie Rennie Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 F: 707-923-2077 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [image: Description: signature] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mike at pveducation.com Fri May 18 17:39:14 2018 From: mike at pveducation.com (Michael Howell (mike@PVeducation.com)) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 17:39:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Transformer Nomenclature/Protection/Grounding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Darryl, My day job is in electrical distribution and the primary is always the utility side of the transformer. We have custom transformers made all the time for solar and every manufacturer we work with builds the primary on the utility. Corey, If your utility wants wye on their point of connection side this will turn into a custom transformer. Your local electrical distributor will mostly likely give you specs from the factory that will also clarify this. In your case you need a 208Y120 primary and 480Y277 secondary. I run into this wye-wye all the time with some utilities. One of the main reasons for having the primary on the utility side is the transformer has an internal resistance designed to not trip the breaker feeding it when you first energize the transformer. I've run into cases where this has been switched in the field and when you turn the breaker on for the transformer it will open from the large inrush current. Definitely a confusing topic and once you get the transformer quote back for the wye-wye it should be clearly indicated. Federal Pacific it typically very competitive on these units. Hope this helps, Mike On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 1:57 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > hi I have copied your text. My comments are in red > > - Is there any consensus on what circuit is considered the "primary" and > which is the "secondary" in this type of scenario? Yes, the energy > supply side is the primary, so the solaredge side is the Primary > - NEC 690.9(D) speaks of "considering first one side of the > transformer, then the other side of the transformer, as the primary". Is > this relevant? Yes; you must protect from the grid side (the grid has all > the real power) then the high-voltage side inverter side is protected by > the inverter capacity. i.e. Is it possible for both sides of the > transformer to be labeled as a primary? No, Your transformer was made > with assumed primary and secondary, the energy flows from primary to > secondary with a slight voltage drop, the turns ratio reflects this slight > voltage change. Also, the low voltage side is wound next to the core and > the higher voltage side is wound away from the core. > > - I understand that 450.4(A) requires overcurrent protection on the "input > conductors" (aka "primary conductors"?), correct? Yes, the grid side must > be protected in the event of a fault. And the solar side must be protected > or have conductors sufficient to carry the current as limited by input > (grid) side OCPD. The solar side by OCPD or a power limited supply, the > inverters, but the input from the grid must be protected. Must we > provide overcurrent protection on the "other" side in the above scenario? Yes, > the solar side has to have protection from the grid. > > - We were originally planning to land each inverter output on a 50A > breaker inside a 200A main lug panel - must we also include a main breaker? No, > not from the inverters, but if you are you are using this as the OCPD on > the solar side of the transformer yes. I think the calculation is 125% > transformer OCPD power or the power of the transformer is the maximum > current. For example, 112 kVA / 480 x 125% =292 amps is possible, the > conductors need to be 292 amp or you protect with OCP. If you protect then > the conductors need to be 100 kW x125% /480/1.73= 150 amp minimum. > > - How do we size the grounding conductors on either side of the > transformer? For standard distances, the equipment ground for the > transformer is from 250.122 based on the grid side OCPD. For 100 kW x 1.25 > /208/1.73 = 350 amps, is #3 cu or equiv. > For the solar side it is a separately derived system, The equipment > ground from 250.122 is #6, However, if you use a corner grounded delta, (if > SE will allow) you do not run a separate equipment ground. Being a > separately derived system you need an GEC, which is sized from 250.66and it > will go to a series of ground rods, with a #6 > > - Is the grounding conductor between MDP and transformer considered an > EGC (250.122)? Yes, for the transformer on the grid side > > > On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 7:38 PM, Corey Shalanski > wrote: > >> I'm seeking some guidance on how to treat transformers when included in a >> PV system. >> >> Specific system details: >> - (3x) SolarEdge 33.3 inverters combined in a 200A panel >> - 480/208 transformer to be installed between 200A panel and main >> distribution panel (service is 208 wye) >> >> My questions: >> >> - Is there any consensus on what circuit is considered the "primary" and >> which is the "secondary" in this type of scenario? >> - NEC 690.9(D) speaks of "considering first one side of the >> transformer, then the other side of the transformer, as the primary". Is >> this relevant? i.e. Is it possible for both sides of the transformer to be >> labeled as a primary? >> >> - I understand that 450.4(A) requires overcurrent protection on the >> "input conductors" (aka "primary conductors"?), correct? Must we provide >> overcurrent protection on the "other" side in the above scenario? >> - We were originally planning to land each inverter output on a 50A >> breaker inside a 200A main lug panel - must we also include a main breaker? >> >> - How do we size the grounding conductors on either side of the >> transformer? >> - Is the grounding conductor between MDP and transformer considered an >> EGC (250.122)? >> - Is the inverter-side of the transformer considered a separately >> derived system, in which case the grounding conductor would be considered a >> GEC (250.102(C)(1))? >> >> Thanks for any advice! >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> Joule Energy >> New Orleans, LA >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunengser at gmail.com Fri May 18 18:53:36 2018 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 15:53:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Cell Temperature Variation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Corey I consulted and did some independent tests with a module manufacturer who had some modules with low Power output and curve traces similar to yours. They however could detect no abnormal cracks in the modules with EL testing. I also detected no issues on the thermal image at no or low power, but when loaded I saw a similar pattern and temperature difference. Remember that the curve tracer is applying a linear load from 0 volts and no load at Isc to MPPT ( knee of the curve). From MPPT the load goes exponential to infinity at Voc (open circuit) or full load. Also No cells are perfectly Isc matched and some variation is common, especially with high power perc cells and seldom will effect the curve trace as much as your case or the one that I had. I do not believe that it is a series resistance issue because the slope of the curve from the MPPT to the Voc has not changed. The majority of the slope change in the curve is between Isc and MPPT, which is indicative of a Shunt resistance. in my case I determined that the modules at the plant had mixed different cells from different power bins and so the lower Isc cell passes some power forward bias through the cell, but cannot pass the full current through that route so it reverse bias a portion of the cell to pass the remainder of the difference in Isc. This causes a hotter cell. So in many ways it is acting like a shaded cell getting hotter (classic Isc mismatch). Because a cell in either reverse bias or forward bias is like a diode ( a leaky switch) this may or may not be enough of a difference to trigger a diode ( junction boxes do not appear to be warmer indication a diode triggering), or maybe it has and the continuous heat over time has caused the diode to fail. At least by the patterns I see in your modules that does not appear to be the case. So my first guess would be that you are seeing something similar to what I saw, that is that the module maufacturer has produced a series of modules with different power rated cells and the temperature difference is from some level of reverse bias. This should have been detected in the binning of the modules unless these had a large +/- 5% tolerance ( which I would never ever purchase). Regardless it has impacted your power output and depending on the age and the nature of the module manufactures warranty I would think that you have a warranty claim. Caution as always it is hard to determine how much temperature difference is enough to be an issue, especially if you did not adjust for emmissivity and reflectivityin your images. If you do not know how to do that you should take a Thermal Imaging Level I class, otherwise you may freak out whenever you see minor checkerboarding!. I again think the curve trace is pretty good indication at the irradiance that you were tracing at. Bill On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 3:19 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > On a recent utility-scale PV installation we noticed a strange phenomenon > on a single string on a single inverter. An IV curve (attached) reveals > that the measured performance characteristics for this string (solid line) > are significantly less than the expected values (dotted line). For > reference, the ambient temperature was 31°C and the irradiance was 1010 > W/m². > > The phenomenon that more so caught our attention is apparent on a thermal > image (also attached) of the modules in this string. For lack of a better > term I would describe the distribution of cell temperatures as resembling a > "checkerboard" or "scattershot" (random) pattern, ranging between roughly > 55°C and 70°C. Interestingly this phenomenon was only apparent while the > inverter was operating, i.e. with the inverter turned off the modules > revert to a much more uniform temperature distribution nearer to 55°C, > instead varying by only a couple degrees across the entire module/string. > > There was no apparent physical damage to the modules. > > Can anyone offer any suggestions about what might be causing this > phenomenon? > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Joule Energy > New Orleans, LA > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- William Hoffer 420 SE Wyers Street P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 sunengser at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at willpowerelect.com Sat May 19 12:35:31 2018 From: bruce at willpowerelect.com (bruce at willpowerelect.com) Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 09:35:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator search Message-ID: <20180519093531.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.de0f369787.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at willpowerelect.com Sat May 19 12:42:37 2018 From: bruce at willpowerelect.com (bruce at willpowerelect.com) Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 09:42:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock Message-ID: <20180519094237.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.5508146d1a.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun May 20 18:08:34 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 12:08:34 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika energy equipment Message-ID: I had a meeting with Pika at SPI 2017 it might have been all the other meetings but l was not impressed, no technical information on programming or true applications but thats just me.Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: jay Date: 5/13/18 1:21 PM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika energy equipment HI All, Any of you installing the Pika equipment?  Thoughts and is there retail pricing that can be shared? thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sun May 20 18:18:04 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 12:18:04 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika energy equipment with storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <012901d3f088$6d197600$474c6200$@com> >From what I can tell, they offer one of the only true 3-phase (120/208) with battery storage options out there at present. And I can tell you that the pickins’ are slim right now. They stack Panasonic battery modules in their proprietary enclosure for up to ~ 16 kWhs. Each 11.4 kW inverter can accommodate up to two of these enclosures for ~ 32 kWhs. Spec sheets attached. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jerrysgarage01 Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2018 12:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pika energy equipment I had a meeting with Pika at SPI 2017 it might have been all the other meetings but l was not impressed, no technical information on programming or true applications but thats just me. Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: jay Date: 5/13/18 1:21 PM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika energy equipment HI All, Any of you installing the Pika equipment? Thoughts and is there retail pricing that can be shared? thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pika_islanding_inverters 7.6 and 11.4 kW.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 108939 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pika_harbor_plus 16 kWh datasheet.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 78051 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Mon May 21 07:56:45 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 07:56:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock In-Reply-To: <20180519094237.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.5508146d1a.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> References: <20180519094237.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.5508146d1a.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Here in Maine, we do this all the time. Drill, Epoxy, Erect! For more info please contact me off list. Tump > On May 19, 2018, at 12:42 PM, wrote: > > Aaron, Have you considered drilling into the rock and gluing anchor bolts or 'pinning the rock with rebar and building rebar cage and concrete on that? There are ways but engineering supervision is required. Good Luck! > > Bruce Fiero > W: Willpower Electric, LLC > > CCB 191852 > Oregon Electrical Contractor C681 > NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38 > Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs > > > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock > From: David Katz > > Date: Sat, April 14, 2018 8:26 am > To: RE-wrenches > > > Aaron, > I have seen large pole mounts in Portugal in an above ground ring of concrete 3 feet high and 6 feet in diameter. I would get an engineers opinion on the size but that would be easier than digging a hole in rock. > David Katz > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 6:27 AM Aaron Mandelkorn > wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a customer that requires a mounting option I have yet to encounter. His site sits on top of of a massive hill of granite. It is relatively flat. Are there any mounting options that could work here? We are only talking about (12) to (16) modules for an off grid array. Is there anything that can bolt to rock? I typically use dpw or Mt solar pole mounts but can't imagine how these options could work. Any thoughts? > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Mon May 21 09:31:03 2018 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 09:31:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Cell Temperature Variation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Corey, I recently commissioned a large system and saw something very similar. Is it possible that there is a minor amount of shading on those modules? Maybe weeds growing up or powerlines? When I had noticed that cell pattern, it took a little bit to realize that there were powerlines just south of the array casting a thin shadow. The hot cell pattern did not specifically follow the shade pattern on the front of the module. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Senior Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 www.taitem.com On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 6:53 PM, Bill Hoffer wrote: > Corey > > I consulted and did some independent tests with a module manufacturer who > had some modules with low Power output and curve traces similar to yours. > They however could detect no abnormal cracks in the modules with EL > testing. I also detected no issues on the thermal image at no or low power, > but when loaded I saw a similar pattern and temperature difference. > Remember that the curve tracer is applying a linear load from 0 volts and > no load at Isc to MPPT ( knee of the curve). From MPPT the load goes > exponential to infinity at Voc (open circuit) or full load. Also No cells > are perfectly Isc matched and some variation is common, especially with > high power perc cells and seldom will effect the curve trace as much as > your case or the one that I had. I do not believe that it is a series > resistance issue because the slope of the curve from the MPPT to the Voc > has not changed. The majority of the slope change in the curve is between > Isc and MPPT, which is indicative of a Shunt resistance. in my case I > determined that the modules at the plant had mixed different cells from > different power bins and so the lower Isc cell passes some power forward > bias through the cell, but cannot pass the full current through that route > so it reverse bias a portion of the cell to pass the remainder of the > difference in Isc. This causes a hotter cell. So in many ways it is > acting like a shaded cell getting hotter (classic Isc mismatch). Because a > cell in either reverse bias or forward bias is like a diode ( a leaky > switch) this may or may not be enough of a difference to trigger a diode ( > junction boxes do not appear to be warmer indication a diode triggering), > or maybe it has and the continuous heat over time has caused the diode to > fail. At least by the patterns I see in your modules that does not appear > to be the case. > > So my first guess would be that you are seeing something similar to what I > saw, that is that the module maufacturer has produced a series of modules > with different power rated cells and the temperature difference is from > some level of reverse bias. This should have been detected in the binning > of the modules unless these had a large +/- 5% tolerance ( which I would > never ever purchase). Regardless it has impacted your power output and > depending on the age and the nature of the module manufactures warranty I > would think that you have a warranty claim. > > Caution as always it is hard to determine how much temperature difference > is enough to be an issue, especially if you did not adjust for emmissivity > and reflectivityin your images. If you do not know how to do that you > should take a Thermal Imaging Level I class, otherwise you may freak out > whenever you see minor checkerboarding!. I again think the curve trace is > pretty good indication at the irradiance that you were tracing at. > > Bill > > On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 3:19 PM, Corey Shalanski > wrote: > >> On a recent utility-scale PV installation we noticed a strange phenomenon >> on a single string on a single inverter. An IV curve (attached) reveals >> that the measured performance characteristics for this string (solid line) >> are significantly less than the expected values (dotted line). For >> reference, the ambient temperature was 31°C and the irradiance was 1010 >> W/m². >> >> The phenomenon that more so caught our attention is apparent on a thermal >> image (also attached) of the modules in this string. For lack of a better >> term I would describe the distribution of cell temperatures as resembling a >> "checkerboard" or "scattershot" (random) pattern, ranging between roughly >> 55°C and 70°C. Interestingly this phenomenon was only apparent while the >> inverter was operating, i.e. with the inverter turned off the modules >> revert to a much more uniform temperature distribution nearer to 55°C, >> instead varying by only a couple degrees across the entire module/string. >> >> There was no apparent physical damage to the modules. >> >> Can anyone offer any suggestions about what might be causing this >> phenomenon? >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> Joule Energy >> New Orleans, LA >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > William Hoffer > 420 SE Wyers Street > P.O. Box 1823 > White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 > sunengser at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ericyoungren at gmail.com Wed May 23 15:28:07 2018 From: ericyoungren at gmail.com (Eric Youngren) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 11:28:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wireless relays for load shedding? Message-ID: Howdy Wrenches, I'm working on a generator powered mini-grid for an island fishing resort in Alaska. They have 3 XW6048 inverter/chargers to charge batteries while the diesel runs and power the loads from the batteries when the diesel shuts down. They have several high power heating loads not typically seen in battery-based off-grid electrical systems. Two 4kW hot tub heaters and six 1kW infrared space heaters. We have the 46 kW generator run-times set so that the infrared heaters are (in theory) powered only while the generator is running, but the hot tubs are thermostatically controlled and cycle on and off every 4-5 hours or so. I want to make it so that these big heating loads can never be powered from the batteries, and will only come on while the generator is running. The current plan is to use the Auxillary output 12V terminals from one of the XWs to control power relays to switch the hot tub circuits, based on battery voltage triggers. One of those hot tub circuits is fed from the main panel right next to the inverters so that is easy enough. But the other hot tub is fed from a sub-panel located in a different building around 200 feet away from the inverters. Pulling a pair of wires to control the second relay at that sub-panel is not practical. So, I'm looking for wireless options that could control a power relay for the hot tub circuit in the remote sub-panel. Ideally, the control signal would come from the same AUX terminal so both hot tubs will not receive power when the battery voltage is below 50 volts or so, which would indicate that the generator is not running. I would also like to put the infrared heaters on a similar control system so that we are not dependent on people remembering to switch off the heaters before the generator shuts down. Has any of you done this kind of thing? Any suggestions on equipment or best practices? THANKS! Eric Youngren -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed May 23 15:34:08 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 12:34:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wireless relays for load shedding? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8A2D14E5-1A49-4E94-8BC5-D1A0499EA756@millersolar.com> Eric: Any reason not putting these loads on a gen-fed panel? William > On May 23, 2018, at 12:28 PM, Eric Youngren wrote: > > Howdy Wrenches, > > I'm working on a generator powered mini-grid for an island fishing resort in Alaska. They have 3 XW6048 inverter/chargers to charge batteries while the diesel runs and power the loads from the batteries when the diesel shuts down. > > They have several high power heating loads not typically seen in battery-based off-grid electrical systems. Two 4kW hot tub heaters and six 1kW infrared space heaters. We have the 46 kW generator run-times set so that the infrared heaters are (in theory) powered only while the generator is running, but the hot tubs are thermostatically controlled and cycle on and off every 4-5 hours or so. > > I want to make it so that these big heating loads can never be powered from the batteries, and will only come on while the generator is running. The current plan is to use the Auxillary output 12V terminals from one of the XWs to control power relays to switch the hot tub circuits, based on battery voltage triggers. One of those hot tub circuits is fed from the main panel right next to the inverters so that is easy enough. But the other hot tub is fed from a sub-panel located in a different building around 200 feet away from the inverters. Pulling a pair of wires to control the second relay at that sub-panel is not practical. So, I'm looking for wireless options that could control a power relay for the hot tub circuit in the remote sub-panel. Ideally, the control signal would come from the same AUX terminal so both hot tubs will not receive power when the battery voltage is below 50 volts or so, which would indicate that the generator is not running. > > I would also like to put the infrared heaters on a similar control system so that we are not dependent on people remembering to switch off the heaters before the generator shuts down. > > Has any of you done this kind of thing? Any suggestions on equipment or best practices? THANKS! > > Eric Youngren > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dana at solarwork.com Wed May 23 16:18:04 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 14:18:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wireless relays for load shedding? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101d3f2d3$28ed2dd0$7ac78970$@solarwork.com> Wireless - I have no clue but - Simplest thing that comes to mind is spring wound timers on the infrared lamps & clock timers. Spring wound timers come in lots of “length of time options” Could the hot tubs have a “Use schedule” to coincide with the clock settings? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Eric Youngren Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 1:28 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] wireless relays for load shedding? Howdy Wrenches, I'm working on a generator powered mini-grid for an island fishing resort in Alaska. They have 3 XW6048 inverter/chargers to charge batteries while the diesel runs and power the loads from the batteries when the diesel shuts down. They have several high power heating loads not typically seen in battery-based off-grid electrical systems. Two 4kW hot tub heaters and six 1kW infrared space heaters. We have the 46 kW generator run-times set so that the infrared heaters are (in theory) powered only while the generator is running, but the hot tubs are thermostatically controlled and cycle on and off every 4-5 hours or so. I want to make it so that these big heating loads can never be powered from the batteries, and will only come on while the generator is running. The current plan is to use the Auxillary output 12V terminals from one of the XWs to control power relays to switch the hot tub circuits, based on battery voltage triggers. One of those hot tub circuits is fed from the main panel right next to the inverters so that is easy enough. But the other hot tub is fed from a sub-panel located in a different building around 200 feet away from the inverters. Pulling a pair of wires to control the second relay at that sub-panel is not practical. So, I'm looking for wireless options that could control a power relay for the hot tub circuit in the remote sub-panel. Ideally, the control signal would come from the same AUX terminal so both hot tubs will not receive power when the battery voltage is below 50 volts or so, which would indicate that the generator is not running. I would also like to put the infrared heaters on a similar control system so that we are not dependent on people remembering to switch off the heaters before the generator shuts down. Has any of you done this kind of thing? Any suggestions on equipment or best practices? THANKS! Eric Youngren -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ericyoungren at gmail.com Wed May 23 16:27:00 2018 From: ericyoungren at gmail.com (Eric Youngren) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 12:27:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wireless relays for load shedding? In-Reply-To: <8A2D14E5-1A49-4E94-8BC5-D1A0499EA756@millersolar.com> References: <8A2D14E5-1A49-4E94-8BC5-D1A0499EA756@millersolar.com> Message-ID: That would be great but it’s too late now. When all this was originally built and wired it was 24/7 generator power. So everything is fed from one main panel at the generator building. Plus, the loads are on an ATS that is external to the inverters. When the generator is running it feeds the loads directly (and charges the battery), there are no pass-through loads on the inverter output. On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 12:16 PM William Miller wrote: > Eric: > > Any reason not putting these loads on a gen-fed panel? > > William > > > On May 23, 2018, at 12:28 PM, Eric Youngren > wrote: > > > > Howdy Wrenches, > > > > I'm working on a generator powered mini-grid for an island fishing > resort in Alaska. They have 3 XW6048 inverter/chargers to charge batteries > while the diesel runs and power the loads from the batteries when the > diesel shuts down. > > > > They have several high power heating loads not typically seen in > battery-based off-grid electrical systems. Two 4kW hot tub heaters and six > 1kW infrared space heaters. We have the 46 kW generator run-times set so > that the infrared heaters are (in theory) powered only while the generator > is running, but the hot tubs are thermostatically controlled and cycle on > and off every 4-5 hours or so. > > > > I want to make it so that these big heating loads can never be powered > from the batteries, and will only come on while the generator is running. > The current plan is to use the Auxillary output 12V terminals from one of > the XWs to control power relays to switch the hot tub circuits, based on > battery voltage triggers. One of those hot tub circuits is fed from the > main panel right next to the inverters so that is easy enough. But the > other hot tub is fed from a sub-panel located in a different building > around 200 feet away from the inverters. Pulling a pair of wires to control > the second relay at that sub-panel is not practical. So, I'm looking for > wireless options that could control a power relay for the hot tub circuit > in the remote sub-panel. Ideally, the control signal would come from the > same AUX terminal so both hot tubs will not receive power when the battery > voltage is below 50 volts or so, which would indicate that the generator is > not running. > > > > I would also like to put the infrared heaters on a similar control > system so that we are not dependent on people remembering to switch off the > heaters before the generator shuts down. > > > > Has any of you done this kind of thing? Any suggestions on equipment or > best practices? THANKS! > > > > Eric Youngren > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed May 23 16:23:39 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 13:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] wireless relays for load shedding? In-Reply-To: <001101d3f2d3$28ed2dd0$7ac78970$@solarwork.com> References: <001101d3f2d3$28ed2dd0$7ac78970$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <711e3d7784959e8d406829e0212496d8.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> You would be separating the heater load from the hot tub jets right? If you do not then the jets will not run unless the power is on? Seems like a problem if someone wants to use the tub when the gen set is off. --Dave > Wireless - I have no clue but - Simplest thing that comes to mind is > spring wound timers on the infrared lamps & clock timers. > > Spring wound timers come in lots of “length of time options” > > Could the hot tubs have a “Use schedule” to coincide with the clock > settings? > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of > Eric Youngren > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 1:28 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] wireless relays for load shedding? > > > > Howdy Wrenches, > > > > I'm working on a generator powered mini-grid for an island fishing resort > in Alaska. They have 3 XW6048 inverter/chargers to charge batteries while > the diesel runs and power the loads from the batteries when the diesel > shuts down. > > > > They have several high power heating loads not typically seen in > battery-based off-grid electrical systems. Two 4kW hot tub heaters and six > 1kW infrared space heaters. We have the 46 kW generator run-times set so > that the infrared heaters are (in theory) powered only while the generator > is running, but the hot tubs are thermostatically controlled and cycle on > and off every 4-5 hours or so. > > > > I want to make it so that these big heating loads can never be powered > from the batteries, and will only come on while the generator is running. > The current plan is to use the Auxillary output 12V terminals from one of > the XWs to control power relays to switch the hot tub circuits, based on > battery voltage triggers. One of those hot tub circuits is fed from the > main panel right next to the inverters so that is easy enough. But the > other hot tub is fed from a sub-panel located in a different building > around 200 feet away from the inverters. Pulling a pair of wires to > control the second relay at that sub-panel is not practical. So, I'm > looking for wireless options that could control a power relay for the hot > tub circuit in the remote sub-panel. Ideally, the control signal would > come from the same AUX terminal so both hot tubs will not receive power > when the battery voltage is below 50 volts or so, which would indicate > that the generator is not running. > > > > I would also like to put the infrared heaters on a similar control system > so that we are not dependent on people remembering to switch off the > heaters before the generator shuts down. > > > > Has any of you done this kind of thing? Any suggestions on equipment or > best practices? THANKS! > > > > Eric Youngren > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From lawrencesteven at gmail.com Wed May 23 17:18:22 2018 From: lawrencesteven at gmail.com (Steven Lawrence) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 17:18:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wireless relays for load shedding? Message-ID: Phoenix contact makes a bunch of wireless radios and relays that can communicate discrete signals as well as standard communications. I've used it for a minimum export relay with SCE and telemetry for SCE. It's simple to install and use. If you're going wireless, make sure you have line of sight though. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed May 23 17:40:17 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 16:40:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wireless relays for load shedding? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, sorry if this is not valuable, but I used a "Wink" device a few years ago to control a Wink switch, to switch to control a relay to control a backup heat source if the temperature got to low. Sorry I do not remember a lot more. On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 2:28 PM, Eric Youngren wrote: > Howdy Wrenches, > > I'm working on a generator powered mini-grid for an island fishing resort > in Alaska. They have 3 XW6048 inverter/chargers to charge batteries while > the diesel runs and power the loads from the batteries when the diesel > shuts down. > > They have several high power heating loads not typically seen in > battery-based off-grid electrical systems. Two 4kW hot tub heaters and six > 1kW infrared space heaters. We have the 46 kW generator run-times set so > that the infrared heaters are (in theory) powered only while the generator > is running, but the hot tubs are thermostatically controlled and cycle on > and off every 4-5 hours or so. > > I want to make it so that these big heating loads can never be powered > from the batteries, and will only come on while the generator is running. > The current plan is to use the Auxillary output 12V terminals from one of > the XWs to control power relays to switch the hot tub circuits, based on > battery voltage triggers. One of those hot tub circuits is fed from the > main panel right next to the inverters so that is easy enough. But the > other hot tub is fed from a sub-panel located in a different building > around 200 feet away from the inverters. Pulling a pair of wires to > control the second relay at that sub-panel is not practical. So, I'm > looking for wireless options that could control a power relay for the hot > tub circuit in the remote sub-panel. Ideally, the control signal would come > from the same AUX terminal so both hot tubs will not receive power when the > battery voltage is below 50 volts or so, which would indicate that the > generator is not running. > > I would also like to put the infrared heaters on a similar control system > so that we are not dependent on people remembering to switch off the > heaters before the generator shuts down. > > Has any of you done this kind of thing? Any suggestions on equipment or > best practices? THANKS! > > Eric Youngren > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Wed May 23 18:02:33 2018 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 18:02:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need some help please Message-ID: <1623C6C882CB409BA46BD7AE33708CA5@PeterPC> Hi Wrenchers Not sure if I am allowed to do this on this forum but need some help. I have a client who I work with here in the south who needs some help with a stand alone battery application in Northern California. They are looking for someone to partner with them on a project and need expertise in batteries for part of it. The project is in the Yosemite area and you may reach out to me via phone or email. Second request is I have a client who has some new Schneider gear they are not using and want to sell it. Any recommendations as to a safe scammer free place they could list it? If these requests are not kosher, my apologies. If it is ok, thank you in advance for your help. Thx Peter Giroux ASAE "Small opportunities are often the beginning of great enterprises" Demosthenes Peter Giroux American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc. Happily serving Customers in the South since 2009 678-525-0468 www.americansolarenergies.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed May 23 17:10:09 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 17:10:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wireless relays for load shedding? Message-ID: This company seems to have many wireless relay options, although you will have to use a contactor actuated by the receiver relay, but looks like they could do what you are looking for.I don't have first hand experience with this company, but wireless control is pretty much ubiquitous these days. http://relaypros.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=NCD&Category_Code=Wireless&gclid=CjwKCAjwopTYBRAzEiwAnU4kb2mPYyZIMxBdIyVhNALpPn_0aqcdwOHzrvgEDQncJgMFOt6nkkCI5xoCfLcQAvD_BwE GlennSent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typographical errors. ------ Original message------From: Eric YoungrenDate: Wed, May 23, 2018 3:28 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] wireless relays for load shedding? Howdy Wrenches, I'm working on a generator powered mini-grid for an island fishing resort in Alaska. They have 3 XW6048 inverter/chargers to charge batteries while the diesel runs and power the loads from the batteries when the diesel shuts down.   They have several high power heating loads not typically seen in battery-based off-grid electrical systems. Two 4kW hot tub heaters and six 1kW infrared space heaters.  We have the 46 kW generator run-times set so that the infrared heaters are (in theory) powered only while the generator is running, but the hot tubs are thermostatically controlled and cycle on and off every 4-5 hours or so.   I want to make it so that these big heating loads can never be powered from the batteries, and will only come on while the generator is running.  The current plan is to use the Auxillary output 12V terminals from one of the XWs to control power relays to switch the hot tub circuits, based on battery voltage triggers. One of those hot tub circuits is fed from the main panel right next to the inverters so that is easy enough.  But the other hot tub is fed from a sub-panel located in a different building around 200 feet away from the inverters. Pulling a pair of wires to control the second relay at that sub-panel is not practical.  So, I'm looking for wireless options that could control a power relay for the hot tub circuit in the remote sub-panel. Ideally, the control signal would come from the same AUX terminal so both hot tubs will not receive power when the battery voltage is below 50 volts or so, which would indicate that the generator is not running.   I would also like to put the infrared heaters on a similar control system so that we are not dependent on people remembering to switch off the heaters before the generator shuts down.   Has any of you done this kind of thing?  Any suggestions on equipment or best practices?  THANKS! Eric Youngren -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed May 23 17:54:42 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 11:54:42 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupled storage Message-ID: <01fc01d3f2e0$a8c3b2b0$fa4b1810$@com> Aloha, Other than the Tesla Powerwall, does anyone know of any other AC-coupled residential storage products currently on the market? Thanks, marco --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed May 23 18:46:22 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 18:46:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupled storage Message-ID: Sonnen eco series. GlennSent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typographical errors. ------ Original message------From: Marco MangelsdorfDate: Wed, May 23, 2018 6:28 PMTo: 'RE-wrenches';Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] AC-coupled storage Aloha,   Other than the Tesla Powerwall, does anyone know of any other AC-coupled residential storage products currently on the market?   Thanks, marco   Virus-free. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Wed May 23 19:22:05 2018 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 19:22:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupled storage References: <01fc01d3f2e0$a8c3b2b0$fa4b1810$@com> Message-ID: <6D46369A97BF4F02AD2DAB8E32B989B6@PeterPC> Marco We have been installing the LG Chem Resu product, married to the Solar edge Storedge inverters. Product is currently able to manage two batteries ( 20 kw ) but is limited in amperage capacity. Solaredge is slowly beefing up the application. peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Marco Mangelsdorf To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 5:54 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupled storage Aloha, Other than the Tesla Powerwall, does anyone know of any other AC-coupled residential storage products currently on the market? Thanks, marco Virus-free. www.avast.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu May 24 19:53:42 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 16:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-coupled storage In-Reply-To: <01fc01d3f2e0$a8c3b2b0$fa4b1810$@com> References: <01fc01d3f2e0$a8c3b2b0$fa4b1810$@com> Message-ID: Blue Ion ? made in Hawaii ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Aloha, > > > > Other than the Tesla Powerwall, does anyone know of any other AC-coupled > residential storage products currently on the market? > > > > Thanks, > > marco > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From frenergy at psln.com Tue May 29 23:51:29 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 20:51:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? In-Reply-To: References: <01fc01d3f2e0$a8c3b2b0$fa4b1810$@com> Message-ID: Hey folks,             Outback FP2 with Xfrmr shifts power to "other" leg if that leg needs more than the one FX can provide, right?  Say, you need 5.5 KW on leg 1, the Xfrmr pulls some power from the leg 2 (inverter) to support that 5.5KW load on leg 1. My question (assuming above is accurate) is does the 8048 Radian do the same? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed May 30 00:09:40 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 18:09:40 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? Message-ID: The Radian has 2, 4k, 240 volt inverters, so its different but the way the computer works it makes the same from the load side of thingsJerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: frenergy Date: 5/29/18 5:51 PM (GMT-10:00) To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? Hey folks,             Outback FP2 with Xfrmr shifts power to "other" leg if that leg needs more than the one FX can provide, right?  Say, you need 5.5 KW on leg 1, the Xfrmr pulls some power from the leg 2 (inverter) to support that 5.5KW load on leg 1. My question (assuming above is accurate) is does the 8048 Radian do the same? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed May 30 09:41:21 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 09:41:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter repair needed Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, A Sunny Boy 2100U failed with a K-1 Open error, meaning a relay failed. SMA doesn't repair these, so tech support said "buy a new inverter." A failed relay seems like an easy fix. Does anyone know of a shop that will work on these? If not, what you be the best for a replacement at a reasonable cost? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed May 30 10:32:17 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 09:32:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does each of the 4 kW 240 volt inverters have a maximum on the 120-volt power it can supply? for example, can it supply 70% of the 4 kW on 120 -volts? This example would leave 5.6 kW of 120-volt? On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 11:09 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > The Radian has 2, 4k, 240 volt inverters, so its different but the way the > computer works it makes the same from the load side of things > Jerry > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: frenergy > Date: 5/29/18 5:51 PM (GMT-10:00) > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? > > Hey folks, > > Outback FP2 with Xfrmr shifts power to "other" leg if that > leg needs more than the one FX can provide, right? Say, you need 5.5 KW > on leg 1, the Xfrmr pulls some power from the leg 2 (inverter) to > support that 5.5KW load on leg 1. > > My question (assuming above is accurate) is does the 8048 Radian do the > same? > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From predgate at amecosolar.com Wed May 30 11:14:32 2018 From: predgate at amecosolar.com (predgate amecosolar.com) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 15:14:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter repair needed In-Reply-To: <20180530134204.6ED01107024@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180530134204.6ED01107024@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: SolarCowboyz.com Grass Valley CA Patrick A. Redgate [cid:0664665f-5a01-4c2e-adc7-8ab8342c41b4] 7623 Somerset Boulevard Paramount, CA 90723 562-633-4400 amecosolar or solarexpert.com Serving Solar California Since 1974 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Drake Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 6:41:21 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter repair needed Hello Wrenches, A Sunny Boy 2100U failed with a K-1 Open error, meaning a relay failed. SMA doesn't repair these, so tech support said "buy a new inverter." A failed relay seems like an easy fix. Does anyone know of a shop that will work on these? If not, what you be the best for a replacement at a reasonable cost? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-expqlxgk.png Type: image/png Size: 38066 bytes Desc: Outlook-expqlxgk.png URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed May 30 10:52:46 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 07:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4f66829ae83daa5a55a0a55c231d6d41.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> The 8kw radian still has to have balance! You can't expect it to supply 8kw @ 120vac. It can supply 8kw @ 240 vac. > Does each of the 4 kW 240 volt inverters have a maximum on the 120-volt > power it can supply? for example, can it supply 70% of the 4 kW on 120 > -volts? > This example would leave 5.6 kW of 120-volt? > > On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 11:09 PM, jerrysgarage01 > > wrote: > >> The Radian has 2, 4k, 240 volt inverters, so its different but the way >> the >> computer works it makes the same from the load side of things >> Jerry >> >> >> >> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: frenergy >> Date: 5/29/18 5:51 PM (GMT-10:00) >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? >> >> Hey folks, >> >> Outback FP2 with Xfrmr shifts power to "other" leg if that >> leg needs more than the one FX can provide, right? Say, you need 5.5 KW >> on leg 1, the Xfrmr pulls some power from the leg 2 (inverter) to >> support that 5.5KW load on leg 1. >> >> My question (assuming above is accurate) is does the 8048 Radian do the >> same? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed May 30 13:43:00 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 07:43:00 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test In-Reply-To: <027e01d3f778$98092a30$c81b7e90$@OasisMontana.com> References: <00ed01d3ebce$e564b890$b02e29b0$@solarwindworks.com> <009001d3ec6f$77262570$65727050$@OasisMontana.com> <027e01d3f778$98092a30$c81b7e90$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: To all that were asking about warranty on the old Sanyos, I was told that Panasonic that took over the Sanyo product will warranty the product, that being said, David was the contact I had and who is it that told me this, please take note that the Sanyo warranty was less then most other manufactures. David.Lopez at us.panasonic.com On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 8:12 AM, wrote: > Don’t forget about me please! > > > > :>) > > > > --Chris @ the sunny Oasis MT > > > > *From:* Jerry Shafer > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 15, 2018 8:07 PM > *To:* chris at oasismontana.com > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test > > > > Yes, I do. Will get it in the next day or so, he is a rep but can make the > connection for you > > Jerry > > > > On Tue, May 15, 2018, 7:10 AM wrote: > > Jerry: Do you have Panasonic’s contact information for warranty service? > I’m hoping I don’t need it but if I do…. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Chris Worcester > *Sent:* Monday, May 14, 2018 4:00 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test > > > > We did a number of Sanyo HIP195, 200, and 210 installs, so far we’ve had a > few failures showing up as backsheet bubbles. Some of the bubbles were so > big that the wafer fell away from the glass! Here’s a couple photos. Didn’t > think Panasonic would take care of this, after an exhausting warranty > procedure that drew on for months on one system… their Japanese engineering > dept said no to our request for replacements on that one eventually. > > > > Chris Worcester > > Solar Wind Works > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > Office 530-582-4503 > > Cell 530-448-9692 > > Fax 530-582-4603 > > www.solarwindworks.com > > chris at solarwindworks.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Ron Young > *Sent:* Monday, May 14, 2018 12:49 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test > > > > I have several dozen older Sanyo’s installed from that period. Are there > any obvious physical degradations to look for or specific tests that can > show issues? I don’t have a megger but have two systems installed in grid > tied systems and a couple off-grid. No performance complaints as yet. > > > > Ron > > > > On May 13, 2018, at 11:51 AM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > > > Kirk > > I dont know if you know this but Panisonic will warranty the old Sanyos, > just got this from a rep last week.the issue you are having may be due to > the failing of the back sheet under the frame edge. > > Jerry > > > > On Sun, May 13, 2018, 6:04 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > > I now have two systems with older Sanyos(Panasonic), circa 2004, which > consistently fail the inverter (Solaredge) startup Insolation test in wet > weather. Usually 200 – 550 kohms, just below the inverters 600k limit. > Confirmed by my meggering. I discovered this after convincing the owners to > upgrade the inverters from old SMA’s which don’t test for it. Anyone else > see this issue in older panels, in particular Sanyos? > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 27th Anniversary 1991-2018* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed May 30 17:35:42 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 17:35:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test In-Reply-To: References: <00ed01d3ebce$e564b890$b02e29b0$@solarwindworks.com> <009001d3ec6f$77262570$65727050$@OasisMontana.com> <027e01d3f778$98092a30$c81b7e90$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Aren't Sanyo modules warranted for 20 years? That is less, but still substantial. Does anyone know if Sanyo modules are affected by Potential Induced Degradation (PID) when connected to an ungrounded inverter? At 01:43 PM 5/30/2018, you wrote: >To all that were asking about warranty on the >old Sanyos, I was told that Panasonic that took >over the Sanyo product will warranty the >product, that being said, David was the contact >I had and who is it that told me this, please >take note that the Sanyo warranty was less then >most other manufactures. >David.Lopez at us.panasonic.com > >On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 8:12 AM, ><chris at oasismontana.com> wrote: >Don’t forget about me please! > >:>) > >--Chris @ the sunny Oasis MT > >From: Jerry Shafer ><jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> >Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 8:07 PM >To: chris at oasismontana.com > >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test > > >Yes, I do. Will get it in the next day or so, he >is a rep but can make the connection for you >Jerry > >On Tue, May 15, 2018, 7:10 AM ><chris at oasismontana.com> wrote: >Jerry: Do you have Panasonic’s contact >information for warranty service? I’m hoping >I don’t need it but if I do .< > >Thanks! > >Chris Daum >Oasis Montana Inc. >406-777-4309 or 4321 >406-777-4309 fax >www.oasismontana.com > > > > >From: RE-wrenches ><re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> >On Behalf Of Chris Worcester >Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 4:00 PM >To: 'RE-wrenches' ><re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test > >We did a number of Sanyo HIP195, 200, and 210 >installs, so far we’ve had a few failures >showing up as backsheet bubbles. Some of the >bubbles were so big that the wafer fell away >from the glass! Here’s a couple photos. >Didn’t think Panasonic would take care of >this, after an exhausting warranty procedure >that drew on for months on one system their >Japanese enggineering dept said no to our >request for replacements on that one eventually.   > >Chris Worcester >Solar Wind Works >NABCEP Certified PV Installer >Office 530-582-4503 >Cell 530-448-9692 >Fax 530-582-4603 >www.solarwindworks.com >chris at solarwindworks.com > >From: RE-wrenches >[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >On Behalf Of Ron Young >Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 12:49 AM >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test > >I have several dozen older Sanyo’s installed >from that period. Are there any obvious physical >degradations to look for or specific tests that >can show issues? I don’t have a megger but >have two systems installed in grid tied systems >and a couple off-grid. No performance complaints as yet. > >Ron > >On May 13, 2018, at 11:51 AM, Jerry Shafer ><jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> wrote: > >Kirk >I dont know if you know this but Panisonic will >warranty the old Sanyos, just got this from a >rep last week.the issue you are having may be >due to the failing of the back sheet under the frame edge. >Jerry > >On Sun, May 13, 2018, 6:04 AM Kirk Herander ><vtsolar at icloud.com> wrote: >I now have two systems with older >Sanyos(Panasonic), circa 2004, which >consistently fail the inverter (Solaredge) >startup Insolation test in wet weather. Usually >200 – 550 kohms, just below tthe inverters 600k >limit. Confirmed by my meggering. I discovered >this after convincing the owners to upgrade the >inverters from old SMA’s which don’t test >for it. Anyone else see this issue in older panels, in particular Sanyos? > >Kirk Herander >Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC >Celebrating our 27th Anniversary 1991-2018 >www.vermontsolarnow.com >dba Vermont Solar Engineering >NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant >VT RE Incentive Program Partner >802.863.1202 > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 30 15:53:04 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 12:53:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? In-Reply-To: <4f66829ae83daa5a55a0a55c231d6d41.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <4f66829ae83daa5a55a0a55c231d6d41.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <04C31018-FFD7-4F6D-B70C-F8F3D26DEEFE@gmail.com> HI Dave and everyone, Its interesting because there is a great deal of difference between OEM’s. Outback says 4kw at 120v for 8kw radian. ( tech support) Magnum says 27 amps at 120v, 16.7 amps at 240 for MS4024PAE ( from the manual) Schneider says 4200 watts at 120v on XW-6848 ( from the manual) Also I know that the Magnum allows you to charge with just 120v and I think the XW is the same, OB you have to have 240v. Cheers jay > On May 30, 2018, at 7:52 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > The 8kw radian still has to have balance! You can't expect it to supply > 8kw @ 120vac. It can supply 8kw @ 240 vac. > > >> Does each of the 4 kW 240 volt inverters have a maximum on the 120-volt >> power it can supply? for example, can it supply 70% of the 4 kW on 120 >> -volts? >> This example would leave 5.6 kW of 120-volt? >> >> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 11:09 PM, jerrysgarage01 >> >> wrote: >> >>> The Radian has 2, 4k, 240 volt inverters, so its different but the way >>> the >>> computer works it makes the same from the load side of things >>> Jerry >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone >>> >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: frenergy >>> Date: 5/29/18 5:51 PM (GMT-10:00) >>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? >>> >>> Hey folks, >>> >>> Outback FP2 with Xfrmr shifts power to "other" leg if that >>> leg needs more than the one FX can provide, right? Say, you need 5.5 KW >>> on leg 1, the Xfrmr pulls some power from the leg 2 (inverter) to >>> support that 5.5KW load on leg 1. >>> >>> My question (assuming above is accurate) is does the 8048 Radian do the >>> same? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> --- From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed May 30 19:14:28 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 13:14:28 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test In-Reply-To: <20180530213547.CDD9310791E@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <00ed01d3ebce$e564b890$b02e29b0$@solarwindworks.com> <009001d3ec6f$77262570$65727050$@OasisMontana.com> <027e01d3f778$98092a30$c81b7e90$@OasisMontana.com> <20180530213547.CDD9310791E@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Also remember workmanship is a way around performance issues Jerry On Wed, May 30, 2018, 11:35 AM Drake wrote: > Aren't Sanyo modules warranted for 20 years? That is less, but still > substantial. > > Does anyone know if Sanyo modules are affected by Potential Induced > Degradation (PID) when connected to an ungrounded inverter? > > At 01:43 PM 5/30/2018, you wrote: > > To all that were asking about warranty on the old Sanyos, I was told that > Panasonic that took over the Sanyo product will warranty the product, that > being said, David was the contact I had and who is it that told me this, > please take note that the Sanyo warranty was less then most other > manufactures. David.Lopez at us.panasonic.com > > On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 8:12 AM, wrote: > Don’t forget about me please! >  > :>) >  > --Chris @ the sunny Oasis MT >  > From: Jerry Shafer > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 8:07 PM > To: chris at oasismontana.com > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test > >  > Yes, I do. Will get it in the next day or so, he is a rep but can make the > connection for you > Jerry >  > On Tue, May 15, 2018, 7:10 AM wrote: > Jerry: Do you have Panasonic’s contact information for warranty > service? I’m hoping I don’t need it but if I do….< >  > Thanks! >  > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com >  >  >  >  > From: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> On Behalf > Of Chris Worcester > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 4:00 PM > To: 'RE-wrenches' < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test >  > We did a number of Sanyo HIP195, 200, and 210 installs, so far we’ve had > a few failures showing up as backsheet bubbles. Some of the bubbles were so > big that the wafer fell away from the glass! Here’s a couple photos. > Didn’t think Panasonic would take care of this, after an exhausting > warranty procedure that drew on for months on one system… their Japanese > enggineering dept said no to our request for replacements on that one > eventually.   >  > Chris Worcester > Solar Wind Works > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Office 530-582-4503 > Cell 530-448-9692 > Fax 530-582-4603 > www.solarwindworks.com > chris at solarwindworks.com >  > From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] On Behalf Of Ron Young > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 12:49 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] old sanyos failing Iso test >  > I have several dozen older Sanyo’s installed from that period. Are there > any obvious physical degradations to look for or specific tests that can > show issues? I don’t have a megger but have two systems installed in grid > tied systems and a couple off-grid. No performance complaints as yet. >  > Ron >  > On May 13, 2018, at 11:51 AM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: >  > Kirk > I dont know if you know this but Panisonic will warranty the old Sanyos, > just got this from a rep last week.the issue you are having may be due to > the failing of the back sheet under the frame edge. > Jerry >  > On Sun, May 13, 2018, 6:04 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > I now have two systems with older Sanyos(Panasonic), circa 2004, which > consistently fail the inverter (Solaredge) startup Insolation test in wet > weather. Usually 200 – 550 kohms, just below tthe inverters 600k limit. > Confirmed by my meggering. I discovered this after convincing the owners to > upgrade the inverters from old SMA’s which don’t test for it. Anyone > else see this issue in older panels, in particular Sanyos? >  > Kirk Herander > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 27th Anniversary 1991-2018 > www.vermontsolarnow.com > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > 802.863.1202 >  >  > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org >  > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu May 31 08:09:55 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 08:09:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? In-Reply-To: <04C31018-FFD7-4F6D-B70C-F8F3D26DEEFE@gmail.com> References: <4f66829ae83daa5a55a0a55c231d6d41.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <04C31018-FFD7-4F6D-B70C-F8F3D26DEEFE@gmail.com> Message-ID: That is interesting about Magnum: Tech support told me that the 4024PAE was two separate 2000 W inverters. We had problems with a microwave shutting the system down. Do you find you have good reliability with Magnum products? Drake At 03:53 PM 5/30/2018, you wrote: >HI Dave and everyone, Its interesting because >there is a great deal of difference between >OEM’s. Outback says 4kw at 120v for 8kw >radian. ( tech support) Magnum says 27 amps at >120v, 16.7 amps at 240 for MS4024PAE ( from the >manual) Schneider says 4200 watts at 120v on >XW-6848 ( from the manual) Also I know that the >Magnum allows you to charge with just 120v and I >think the XW is the same, OB you have to have >240v. Cheers jay > On May 30, 2018, at 7:52 AM, >Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: > > The 8kw radian >still has to have balance! You can't expect it >to supply > 8kw @ 120vac. It can supply 8kw @ >240 vac. > > >> Does each of the 4 kW 240 volt >inverters have a maximum on the 120-volt >> >power it can supply? for example, can it supply >70% of the 4 kW on 120 >> -volts? >> This >example would leave 5.6 kW of 120-volt? >> >> On >Tue, May 29, 2018 at 11:09 PM, jerrysgarage01 >> > >> wrote: >> >>> The >Radian has 2, 4k, 240 volt inverters, so its >different but the way >>> the >>> computer works >it makes the same from the load side of >things >>> Jerry >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my >Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone >>> >>> >>> >-------- Original message -------- >>> From: >frenergy >>> Date: 5/29/18 >5:51 PM (GMT-10:00) >>> To: >re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Subject: >[RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? >>> >>> Hey >folks, >>> >>> Outback FP2 with Xfrmr >shifts power to "other" leg if that >>> leg >needs more than the one FX can provide, >right? Say, you need 5.5 KW >>> on leg 1, the >Xfrmr pulls some power from the leg 2 (inverter) >to >>> support that 5.5KW load on leg 1. >>> >>> >My question (assuming above is accurate) is does >the 8048 Radian do the >>> same? >>> >>> >Thanks, >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar >Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 >Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> >530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> >www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> --- >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or >update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu May 31 08:38:59 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 07:38:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? In-Reply-To: <20180531120957.6A878105D4C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <4f66829ae83daa5a55a0a55c231d6d41.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <04C31018-FFD7-4F6D-B70C-F8F3D26DEEFE@gmail.com> <20180531120957.6A878105D4C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hi all i have great respect for Magnum, it seems to have greater surge capacity, and i have 120 volt draws greater thsn 2500 watts on one leg. I never had a to much load one one leg problem. With Magnum, so please give more information On Thu, May 31, 2018, 7:09 AM Drake wrote: > That is interesting about Magnum: Tech support > told me that the 4024PAE was two separate 2000 W > inverters. We had problems with a microwave shutting the system down. > > Do you find you have good reliability with Magnum products? > > Drake > > > At 03:53 PM 5/30/2018, you wrote: > >HI Dave and everyone, Its interesting because > >there is a great deal of difference between > >OEM’s. Outback says 4kw at 120v for 8kw > >radian. ( tech support) Magnum says 27 amps at > >120v, 16.7 amps at 240 for MS4024PAE ( from the > >manual) Schneider says 4200 watts at 120v on > >XW-6848 ( from the manual) Also I know that the > >Magnum allows you to charge with just 120v and I > >think the XW is the same, OB you have to have > >240v. Cheers jay > On May 30, 2018, at 7:52 AM, > >Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > wrote: > > The 8kw radian > >still has to have balance! You can't expect it > >to supply > 8kw @ 120vac. It can supply 8kw @ > >240 vac. > > >> Does each of the 4 kW 240 volt > >inverters have a maximum on the 120-volt >> > >power it can supply? for example, can it supply > >70% of the 4 kW on 120 >> -volts? >> This > >example would leave 5.6 kW of 120-volt? >> >> On > >Tue, May 29, 2018 at 11:09 PM, jerrysgarage01 >> > > >> wrote: >> >>> The > >Radian has 2, 4k, 240 volt inverters, so its > >different but the way >>> the >>> computer works > >it makes the same from the load side of > >things >>> Jerry >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my > >Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone >>> >>> >>> > >-------- Original message -------- >>> From: > >frenergy >>> Date: 5/29/18 > >5:51 PM (GMT-10:00) >>> To: > >re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Subject: > >[RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? >>> >>> Hey > >folks, >>> >>> Outback FP2 with Xfrmr > >shifts power to "other" leg if that >>> leg > >needs more than the one FX can provide, > >right? Say, you need 5.5 KW >>> on leg 1, the > >Xfrmr pulls some power from the leg 2 (inverter) > >to >>> support that 5.5KW load on leg 1. >>> >>> > >My question (assuming above is accurate) is does > >the 8048 Radian do the >>> same? >>> >>> > >Thanks, >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar > >Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 > >Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> > >530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> > >www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> --- > >_______________________________________________ > >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: > >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > >listserver email address & settings: > >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: > >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or > >update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Thu May 31 10:26:48 2018 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 09:26:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? In-Reply-To: <20180531120957.37CB5104A2B@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <4f66829ae83daa5a55a0a55c231d6d41.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <04C31018-FFD7-4F6D-B70C-F8F3D26DEEFE@gmail.com> <20180531120957.37CB5104A2B@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: On 5/31/2018 7:09 AM, Drake wrote: > That is interesting about Magnum: Tech support told me that the 4024PAE > was two separate 2000 W inverters. We had problems with a microwave > shutting the system down. That's interesting. I lived off grid for 7 years with a single MS4024PAE. I had one overload shut down in all that time. Microwave (1200 watts @ 120) + well pump (1700 watts @ 240) + vacuum cleaner (1400 watts @ 120) + house loads (200 watts @ 120) + I'm guessing fridge compressor kicked in (600 watts? @ 120). Never had any issues with air compressors, shop tools, 240 volt MIG welder, or anything else. > Do you find you have good reliability with Magnum products? I have never had a failure with any MS inverter or ARC or AGS that I've installed. I had one BMK fail after 5 years, but that was during a lightning storm. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu May 31 09:57:07 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 06:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? In-Reply-To: References: <4f66829ae83daa5a55a0a55c231d6d41.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> <04C31018-FFD7-4F6D-B70C-F8F3D26DEEFE@gmail.com> <20180531120957.6A878105D4C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Magnum is a no go for me for several reasons. First one is until they have a decent web based system data view/configure I can't help my remote clients as I do with Outback and Schneider. The second is they did not have a charge controller until 3 or so years ago:( The 8 KW radian and its mppts or an XW+ and the hi voltage mppt just works too well. XW+ can be configured for 6.8 KW @ 120vac if needed. I am going to use alot of skyboxes if they release it in November! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Hi all i have great respect for Magnum, it seems to have greater surge > capacity, and i have 120 volt draws greater thsn 2500 watts on one leg. I > never had a to much load one one leg problem. With Magnum, so please give > more information > > On Thu, May 31, 2018, 7:09 AM Drake > wrote: > >> That is interesting about Magnum: Tech support >> told me that the 4024PAE was two separate 2000 W >> inverters. We had problems with a microwave shutting the system down. >> >> Do you find you have good reliability with Magnum products? >> >> Drake >> >> >> At 03:53 PM 5/30/2018, you wrote: >> >HI Dave and everyone, Its interesting because >> >there is a great deal of difference between >> >OEM’s. Outback says 4kw at 120v for 8kw >> >radian. ( tech support) Magnum says 27 amps at >> >120v, 16.7 amps at 240 for MS4024PAE ( from the >> >manual) Schneider says 4200 watts at 120v on >> >XW-6848 ( from the manual) Also I know that the >> >Magnum allows you to charge with just 120v and I >> >think the XW is the same, OB you have to have >> >240v. Cheers jay > On May 30, 2018, at 7:52 AM, >> >Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> > wrote: > > The 8kw radian >> >still has to have balance! You can't expect it >> >to supply > 8kw @ 120vac. It can supply 8kw @ >> >240 vac. > > >> Does each of the 4 kW 240 volt >> >inverters have a maximum on the 120-volt >> >> >power it can supply? for example, can it supply >> >70% of the 4 kW on 120 >> -volts? >> This >> >example would leave 5.6 kW of 120-volt? >> >> On >> >Tue, May 29, 2018 at 11:09 PM, jerrysgarage01 >> >> > >> wrote: >> >>> The >> >Radian has 2, 4k, 240 volt inverters, so its >> >different but the way >>> the >>> computer works >> >it makes the same from the load side of >> >things >>> Jerry >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my >> >Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone >>> >>> >>> >> >-------- Original message -------- >>> From: >> >frenergy >>> Date: 5/29/18 >> >5:51 PM (GMT-10:00) >>> To: >> >re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Subject: >> >[RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? >>> >>> Hey >> >folks, >>> >>> Outback FP2 with Xfrmr >> >shifts power to "other" leg if that >>> leg >> >needs more than the one FX can provide, >> >right? Say, you need 5.5 KW >>> on leg 1, the >> >Xfrmr pulls some power from the leg 2 (inverter) >> >to >>> support that 5.5KW load on leg 1. >>> >>> >> >My question (assuming above is accurate) is does >> >the 8048 Radian do the >>> same? >>> >>> >> >Thanks, >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar >> >Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 >> >Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> >> >530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> >> >www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> --- >> >_______________________________________________ >> >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: >> >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >> >listserver email address & settings: >> >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >List rules & etiquette: >> >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or >> >update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 17:50:35 2018 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 11:50:35 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ilsco Insulated Tap Connectors Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, Does anyone know if Ilsco Insulated Tap Connectors at DC rated? I looked on their cut sheet, and even called the Cincinnati and I was not able to confirm this? Does anybody know this, or have a better connector to use? Mahalo in advance, *James B. Rudolph* *Hawaii Unifed* *Director of Energy* *ES Electrician # 10816* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* *808.594.9969* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 10:18:15 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 09:18:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ilsco Insulated Tap Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have heard AC DC no difference. However, I have experienced failure of these connectors via insulation softening in J boxes on the roof. The plastic is not thermal set and it will distort if pressured against the side of the box. This has never been a problem for interior wiring only in the solar case outside. On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 4:50 PM, James Rudolph wrote: > Aloha Wrenches, > Does anyone know if Ilsco Insulated Tap Connectors at DC rated? > I looked on their cut sheet, and even called the Cincinnati and I was not > able to confirm this? > > Does anybody know this, or have a better connector to use? > > Mahalo in advance, > > *James B. Rudolph* > > *Hawaii Unifed* > > *Director of Energy* > > *ES Electrician # 10816* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* > > *808.594.9969* > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Jun 2 13:10:39 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 11:10:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ilsco Insulated Tap Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62764297-51a0-43a8-382a-efc52fc223ed@solarray.com> I pulled up the Ilsco site.  They are rated to 600 volts.  That voltage is AC and DC, unless it specifically says AC only.  We've used them for decades with DC.  Check your voltage rating for THHN cable: it does not say DC either. Ilsco is also one of the few manufacturers to make flex cable rated connectors.  They have blue caps.  This is what we should be using when using higher strand count cables like Cobra X Flex. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/2/18 8:18 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > I have heard AC DC no difference.  However, I have experienced failure > of these connectors via insulation softening in J boxes on the roof.  > The plastic is not thermal set and it will distort if pressured > against the side of the box.  This has never been a problem for > interior wiring only in the solar case outside. > > On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 4:50 PM, James Rudolph > > wrote: > > Aloha Wrenches, > Does anyone know if Ilsco Insulated Tap Connectors at DC rated? > I looked on their cut sheet, and even called the Cincinnati and I > was not able to confirm this? > > Does anybody know this, or have a better connector to use? > > Mahalo in advance, > > *James B. Rudolph* > > *Hawaii Unifed* > > *Director of Energy* > > *ES Electrician # 10816* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* > > *808.594.9969* > > * > * > * > * > > * > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 3 14:24:32 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 11:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] 60 vdc 1A fuse Message-ID: <921f012f210bcb12bf21d62dd870b2ef.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I use to be able to find a Bussman FRN - R 1 amp fuse. It is not made anymore, I found searching. I could use a PV 600vdc fuse but they are physically bigger than I want. There is a https://www.amazon.com/COOPER-BUSSMANN-GMT-1A-INDICATING-ACTING/dp/B00LQP0ZOO/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1528048058&sr=8-3-fkmr0&keywords=Bussmann+BK/GMT-1A+Fast-Acting+Fuse;+1+Amp,+125+Volt+AC/60+Volt+DC Anyone have a line on a typical glass/ceramic type 1 adc fuse rated for 60vdc? Thx! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Jun 4 17:26:52 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 17:26:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Array Pictures from Hawaii or Caribbean In-Reply-To: <921f012f210bcb12bf21d62dd870b2ef.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <921f012f210bcb12bf21d62dd870b2ef.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: I am putting together information for a pv class in the Caribbean, and I am looking for pictures of projects that show the project and the typical roofing materials. I live in the Northeast, and all we've really done are either cedar shingle or asphalt. If you have pictures that you would be willing to share, I would appreciate it. I will give your company credit in the presentation.  Would you please contact me off line? Thank you, Chris --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Jun 7 09:05:41 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 09:05:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ilsco Insulated Tap Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5b3ae568-a3d5-c7c8-2a02-468f9bf10729@entech-engineering.com> Hello Wrenches, I am trying to redesign a couple hundred watt load off-grid system by first focusing on the battery technology. The Li based battery "packages" I am aware of are essentially for a residence, which is too large for this application. Can you recommend a manufacturer of Li batteries that can be used in an off grid application that had safe battery charging capabilities as part of its product line.  Currently, 2 Trojan L16s are being used, which, while is a fine battery, is limited in its depth of discharge.  Thanks for any info/help.  Chris --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Thu Jun 7 09:53:34 2018 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 07:53:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ilsco Insulated Tap Connectors In-Reply-To: <62764297-51a0-43a8-382a-efc52fc223ed@solarray.com> References: <62764297-51a0-43a8-382a-efc52fc223ed@solarray.com> Message-ID: I'll x2 what Ray says....unless it specifies AC or DC then the voltage rating applies to either. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Jun 2, 2018, at 11:10 AM, Ray wrote: > > I pulled up the Ilsco site. They are rated to 600 volts. That voltage is AC and DC, unless it specifically says AC only. We've used them for decades with DC. Check your voltage rating for THHN cable: it does not say DC either. > Ilsco is also one of the few manufacturers to make flex cable rated connectors. They have blue caps. This is what we should be using when using higher strand count cables like Cobra X Flex. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 >> On 6/2/18 8:18 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote: >> I have heard AC DC no difference. However, I have experienced failure of these connectors via insulation softening in J boxes on the roof. The plastic is not thermal set and it will distort if pressured against the side of the box. This has never been a problem for interior wiring only in the solar case outside. >> >>> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 4:50 PM, James Rudolph wrote: >>> Aloha Wrenches, >>> Does anyone know if Ilsco Insulated Tap Connectors at DC rated? >>> I looked on their cut sheet, and even called the Cincinnati and I was not able to confirm this? >>> >>> Does anybody know this, or have a better connector to use? >>> >>> Mahalo in advance, >>> >>> James B. Rudolph >>> Hawaii Unifed >>> Director of Energy >>> ES Electrician # 10816 >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155 >>> 808.594.9969 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g.rochlin at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 11:08:17 2018 From: g.rochlin at gmail.com (Gary Rochlin) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 08:08:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ilsco Insulated Tap Connectors In-Reply-To: <5b3ae568-a3d5-c7c8-2a02-468f9bf10729@entech-engineering.com> References: <5b3ae568-a3d5-c7c8-2a02-468f9bf10729@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <4BB4230F-18C1-4639-9A0C-5FE0EACEC8E0@gmail.com> Simpliphi batteries, lithium ferro, are safe but a little expensive. Sent on the run from my phone. Please excuse brevity and typos. > On Jun 7, 2018, at 6:05 AM, cwarfel wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, I am trying to redesign a couple hundred watt load off-grid system by first focusing on the battery technology. The Li based battery "packages" I am aware of are essentially for a residence, which is too large for this application. Can you recommend a manufacturer of Li batteries that can be used in an off grid application that had safe battery charging capabilities as part of its product line. Currently, 2 Trojan L16s are being used, which, while is a fine battery, is limited in its depth of discharge. Thanks for any info/help. Chris > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401)466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Jun 7 14:56:51 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 14:56:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small system lithium or equivalent battery technology In-Reply-To: <62764297-51a0-43a8-382a-efc52fc223ed@solarray.com> References: <62764297-51a0-43a8-382a-efc52fc223ed@solarray.com> Message-ID: <9ae4cf0c-331b-b230-8350-7ec558e771ec@entech-engineering.com> I am trying to redesign a couple hundred watt load off-grid system by first focusing on the battery technology.  The Li based battery "packages" I am aware of are essentially for a residence, which is too large for this application. Can you recommend a manufacturer of Li batteries that can be used in an off grid application that had safe battery charging capabilities as part of its product line. Currently, 2 Trojan L16s are being used, which, while is a fine battery, is limited in its depth of discharge.  Thanks for any info/help.  Chris --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 7 14:19:48 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 11:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ilsco Insulated Tap Connectors In-Reply-To: <5b3ae568-a3d5-c7c8-2a02-468f9bf10729@entech-engineering.com> References: <5b3ae568-a3d5-c7c8-2a02-468f9bf10729@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Discover AES has some very nice Li-ion batteries that work directly with Schneider Electric and soon Outback. http://discoveraes.com/ Almost all of the LFP batteries are selling for about $1,000 per usable KWH. They are expensive but if you do the math, and pick a company that will be there, they could outlive you. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Hello Wrenches, I am trying to redesign a couple hundred watt load > off-grid system by first focusing on the battery technology. The Li > based battery "packages" I am aware of are essentially for a residence, > which is too large for this application. Can you recommend a > manufacturer of Li batteries that can be used in an off grid application > that had safe battery charging capabilities as part of its product > line.  Currently, 2 Trojan L16s are being used, which, while is a fine > battery, is limited in its depth of discharge.  Thanks for any > info/help.  Chris > > -- > >          Christopher Warfel, PE >        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                (401)466-8978 > > EEI logo > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Jun 7 16:24:32 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 13:24:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small system lithium or equivalent battery technology In-Reply-To: <9ae4cf0c-331b-b230-8350-7ec558e771ec@entech-engineering.com> References: <62764297-51a0-43a8-382a-efc52fc223ed@solarray.com> <9ae4cf0c-331b-b230-8350-7ec558e771ec@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: http://www.lifebluebattery.com/rv-boat-lithium-ion-batteries/index.html Bluetooth communications with the EMS built in. On Jun 7, 2018, at 11:56 AM, cwarfel wrote: I am trying to redesign a couple hundred watt load off-grid system by first focusing on the battery technology. The Li based battery "packages" I am aware of are essentially for a residence, which is too large for this application. Can you recommend a manufacturer of Li batteries that can be used in an off grid application that had safe battery charging capabilities as part of its product line. Currently, 2 Trojan L16s are being used, which, while is a fine battery, is limited in its depth of discharge. Thanks for any info/help. Chris -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401)466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EMS features.png Type: image/png Size: 54315 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bruce at mendocinosolar.com Thu Jun 7 19:02:33 2018 From: bruce at mendocinosolar.com (Bruce Erickson) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 16:02:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] top of pole with no galvy Message-ID: <92B24C49-2778-48B1-A449-9F7E09B97BEF@mendocinosolar.com> Hi All, I have a super particular customer who needs a small top-of-pole rack, but will not accept anything but aluminum or stainless (or bronze or titanium or . . ). No galvanized steel! Anyone have a lead on a rack manufacturer that has all aluminum pole tops, like Unirac used to make? Thanks. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax bruce at mendocinosolar.com Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jun 7 20:07:35 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 18:07:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] top of pole with no galvy In-Reply-To: <92B24C49-2778-48B1-A449-9F7E09B97BEF@mendocinosolar.com> References: <92B24C49-2778-48B1-A449-9F7E09B97BEF@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: That's funny, Unirac were some of the weakest TOP mounts I ever used.  Better be sure and get stainless pipe for in the ground, because the pole right at the transition into the ground is the first thing that will rust. Another idea,  it might be easier to find all Aluminum racking in a regular ground mount, and set it on concrete Sona tube risers. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/7/18 5:02 PM, Bruce Erickson wrote: > Hi All, > I have a super particular customer who needs a small top-of-pole rack, > but will not accept anything but aluminum or stainless (or bronze or > titanium or . . ). No galvanized steel! Anyone have a lead on a rack > manufacturer that has all aluminum pole tops, like Unirac used to make? > Thanks. > > *Bruce Erickson* > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > /Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since//1994/ > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 7 20:10:09 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 17:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] top of pole with no galvy In-Reply-To: <92B24C49-2778-48B1-A449-9F7E09B97BEF@mendocinosolar.com> References: <92B24C49-2778-48B1-A449-9F7E09B97BEF@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: Array Technology has metal options for the AZ-250 and other trackers for coastal regions. I have not checked this lately though. What about DPW? --Dave > Hi All, > I have a super particular customer who needs a small top-of-pole rack, but > will not accept anything but aluminum or stainless (or bronze or titanium > or . . ). No galvanized steel! Anyone have a lead on a rack manufacturer > that has all aluminum pole tops, like Unirac used to make? > Thanks. > > Bruce Erickson > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 21:51:36 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 18:51:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] top of pole with no galvy In-Reply-To: <92B24C49-2778-48B1-A449-9F7E09B97BEF@mendocinosolar.com> References: <92B24C49-2778-48B1-A449-9F7E09B97BEF@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: <4F5CB25B-CB85-4B77-8F1F-63D77B65E62D@gmail.com> Hi Bruce You might check with Sunwize, or AMERESCO Jay > On Jun 7, 2018, at 4:02 PM, Bruce Erickson wrote: > > Hi All, > I have a super particular customer who needs a small top-of-pole rack, but will not accept anything but aluminum or stainless (or bronze or titanium or . . ). No galvanized steel! Anyone have a lead on a rack manufacturer that has all aluminum pole tops, like Unirac used to make? > Thanks. > > Bruce Erickson > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > Connecting Mendocino County to Solar > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jun 8 10:54:30 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 07:54:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] steel cased industrial batteries Message-ID: <5D179B7D-0F42-49EB-9272-B1F1F59BDB8E@gmail.com> HI All, I’ve wondering if there are recommendations for steel cased flooded industrial batteries. Would be looking for 12v packs, 1500-2000 amp hr. There are many brands out there, HUP, IBE, Enersys, others? Its been a while since I’ve had to even look at them and I figured someone out there has some current info, recommendations, best price etc. thanks jay peltz power From ray at solarray.com Fri Jun 8 11:27:49 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 09:27:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] steel cased industrial batteries In-Reply-To: <5D179B7D-0F42-49EB-9272-B1F1F59BDB8E@gmail.com> References: <5D179B7D-0F42-49EB-9272-B1F1F59BDB8E@gmail.com> Message-ID: HUP is made by Enersys.  We've had great luck with them over the years, sold many sets. 2100 cycles to 80% DOD is written into the 10 yr warranty. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/8/18 8:54 AM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’ve wondering if there are recommendations for steel cased flooded industrial batteries. > Would be looking for 12v packs, 1500-2000 amp hr. > > There are many brands out there, HUP, IBE, Enersys, others? > > Its been a while since I’ve had to even look at them and I figured someone out there has some current info, recommendations, best price etc. > > > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Jun 8 12:18:55 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 10:18:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] top of pole with no galvy In-Reply-To: <92B24C49-2778-48B1-A449-9F7E09B97BEF@mendocinosolar.com> References: <92B24C49-2778-48B1-A449-9F7E09B97BEF@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: <653999fb-17fd-3eb1-85e1-fc8247bb62b4@sindelarsolar.com> Bruce, The very first time I saw UniRac's 'new' extruded aluminum hub at a show I figured it would fail over time, and I was assured that it wouldn't. It did. My best suggestion would be to talk with Jeff Randall at Solar Rackworks in Albuquerque. He welcomes custom work and produces beautiful racks. He was the VP and lead engineer at DP&W. Allan On 6/7/2018 5:02 PM, Bruce Erickson wrote: > Hi All, > I have a super particular customer who needs a small top-of-pole rack, > but will not accept anything but aluminum or stainless (or bronze or > titanium or . . ). No galvanized steel! Anyone have a lead on a rack > manufacturer that has all aluminum pole tops, like Unirac used to make? > Thanks. > *Bruce Erickson* > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > /Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since//1994/ > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Jun 8 12:25:08 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 10:25:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] steel cased industrial batteries In-Reply-To: <5D179B7D-0F42-49EB-9272-B1F1F59BDB8E@gmail.com> References: <5D179B7D-0F42-49EB-9272-B1F1F59BDB8E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, HUPs. They're made by Enersys. I have yet to see a failed cell. I'm backing away from IBE (which I have in my own home), as just this week one longtime client has a second failed cell (out of 24) on a seven-year-old set. He takes meticulous care of them too. The first one several years ago we replaced. This time we bypassed it and are running a 46V system as we look at lithium ion. Allan On 6/8/2018 8:54 AM, jay wrote: > HI All, > I’ve wondering if there are recommendations for steel cased flooded industrial batteries. > Would be looking for 12v packs, 1500-2000 amp hr. > > There are many brands out there, HUP, IBE, Enersys, others? > > Its been a while since I’ve had to even look at them and I figured someone out there has some current info, recommendations, best price etc. > > thanks > jay > peltz power -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Jun 8 12:52:55 2018 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 12:52:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] steel cased industrial batteries In-Reply-To: References: <5D179B7D-0F42-49EB-9272-B1F1F59BDB8E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi All, As someone who has loyally recommended, used and installed Rolls/Surrette batteries for 2 decades, I am interested to hear from those that have a decent history with both Rolls and HUP batteries. My experience with Rolls (in significant part do to my relationship with Roy at RAE) has been mostly very positive. Of course I've read of the glories of HUP batteries on this list for years as well, but have always chosen to stick with Rolls. While I am watching and waiting for L-ion development/pricing to make sense for folks that don't have tons of expendable income, for various reasons I am interested in direct comparisons of Rolls vs. HUP batteries in terms of failure rates, pricing, maintenance, break-in periods, etc. Feel free to respond on or off list as seems appropriate. As always,TIA for whatever input you are willing to share! Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *​​* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 11:27 AM, Ray wrote: > HUP is made by Enersys. We've had great luck with them over the years, > sold many sets. 2100 cycles to 80% DOD is written into the 10 yr warranty. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 6/8/18 8:54 AM, jay wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I’ve wondering if there are recommendations for steel cased flooded >> industrial batteries. >> Would be looking for 12v packs, 1500-2000 amp hr. >> >> There are many brands out there, HUP, IBE, Enersys, others? >> >> Its been a while since I’ve had to even look at them and I figured >> someone out there has some current info, recommendations, best price etc. >> >> >> >> thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jun 8 14:09:27 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 11:09:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] steel cased industrial batteries In-Reply-To: References: <5D179B7D-0F42-49EB-9272-B1F1F59BDB8E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <445f796970f6d673259accdc12656622@mail.gmail.com> Colleagues: I have abandoned IBE and Hawker for steel jacketed batteries. Instead I am very pleased with Deka/MK M-series steel jacketed batteries. They require minimal maintenance and hold up well over time. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Sindelar Solar *Sent:* Friday, June 08, 2018 9:25 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] steel cased industrial batteries Jay, HUPs. They're made by Enersys. I have yet to see a failed cell. I'm backing away from IBE (which I have in my own home), as just this week one longtime client has a second failed cell (out of 24) on a seven-year-old set. He takes meticulous care of them too. The first one several years ago we replaced. This time we bypassed it and are running a 46V system as we look at lithium ion. Allan On 6/8/2018 8:54 AM, jay wrote: HI All, I’ve wondering if there are recommendations for steel cased flooded industrial batteries. Would be looking for 12v packs, 1500-2000 amp hr. There are many brands out there, HUP, IBE, Enersys, others? Its been a while since I’ve had to even look at them and I figured someone out there has some current info, recommendations, best price etc. thanks jay peltz power -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Jun 8 15:42:10 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 15:42:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] steel cased industrial batteries In-Reply-To: <445f796970f6d673259accdc12656622@mail.gmail.com> References: <5D179B7D-0F42-49EB-9272-B1F1F59BDB8E@gmail.com> <445f796970f6d673259accdc12656622@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1CC37520-2C0F-4507-992E-4DE08989343F@swnl.net> I have them in my own home and use them when I spec AGM batteries. The steel enclosures, gives you a vertical battery bank, making for a smaller foot print. Once you get the hang of installing the individual cells, they work well, look great. Also semitic rating can be obtained by using the interloc cases. Pictures and installation suggestions available off list. TUMP > On Jun 8, 2018, at 2:09 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > I have abandoned IBE and Hawker for steel jacketed batteries. Instead I am very pleased with Deka/MK M-series steel jacketed batteries. They require minimal maintenance and hold up well over time. > > William > > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Sindelar Solar > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2018 9:25 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] steel cased industrial batteries > > Jay, > > HUPs. They're made by Enersys. I have yet to see a failed cell. > > I'm backing away from IBE (which I have in my own home), as just this week one longtime client has a second failed cell (out of 24) on a seven-year-old set. He takes meticulous care of them too. The first one several years ago we replaced. This time we bypassed it and are running a 46V system as we look at lithium ion. > > Allan > > On 6/8/2018 8:54 AM, jay wrote: > >> HI All, >> I’ve wondering if there are recommendations for steel cased flooded industrial batteries. >> Would be looking for 12v packs, 1500-2000 amp hr. >> >> There are many brands out there, HUP, IBE, Enersys, others? >> >> Its been a while since I’ve had to even look at them and I figured someone out there has some current info, recommendations, best price etc. >> >> thanks >> jay >> peltz power > -- > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jun 8 15:51:31 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 12:51:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] steel cased industrial batteries In-Reply-To: <1CC37520-2C0F-4507-992E-4DE08989343F@swnl.net> References: <5D179B7D-0F42-49EB-9272-B1F1F59BDB8E@gmail.com> <445f796970f6d673259accdc12656622@mail.gmail.com> <1CC37520-2C0F-4507-992E-4DE08989343F@swnl.net> Message-ID: <9a39c482f576a0621b65e68c743d70a7@mail.gmail.com> Tump: The M series are a steel jacketed, flooded battery, which is what I thought we were discussing. Deka also makes the Unigy line of AGM batteries, to which I believe you are referring. They have also worked well for us, making Deka/MK a one-stop shop for us. For you trying these Unigy batteries for the first time, be aware of the differences between interlocking and non-interlocking racking. One can be placed against a wall and one you cannot. And I assume you meant ‘seismic.’ William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* Tump [mailto:tump at swnl.net] *Sent:* Friday, June 08, 2018 12:42 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] steel cased industrial batteries I have them in my own home and use them when I spec AGM batteries. The steel enclosures, gives you a vertical battery bank, making for a smaller foot print. Once you get the hang of installing the individual cells, they work well, look great. Also semitic rating can be obtained by using the interloc cases. Pictures and installation suggestions available off list. TUMP On Jun 8, 2018, at 2:09 PM, William Miller wrote: Colleagues: I have abandoned IBE and Hawker for steel jacketed batteries. Instead I am very pleased with Deka/MK M-series steel jacketed batteries. They require minimal maintenance and hold up well over time. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Sindelar Solar *Sent:* Friday, June 08, 2018 9:25 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] steel cased industrial batteries Jay, HUPs. They're made by Enersys. I have yet to see a failed cell. I'm backing away from IBE (which I have in my own home), as just this week one longtime client has a second failed cell (out of 24) on a seven-year-old set. He takes meticulous care of them too. The first one several years ago we replaced. This time we bypassed it and are running a 46V system as we look at lithium ion. Allan On 6/8/2018 8:54 AM, jay wrote: HI All, I’ve wondering if there are recommendations for steel cased flooded industrial batteries. Would be looking for 12v packs, 1500-2000 amp hr. There are many brands out there, HUP, IBE, Enersys, others? Its been a while since I’ve had to even look at them and I figured someone out there has some current info, recommendations, best price etc. thanks jay peltz power -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org *Tump at swnl.net * *www.SWNL.net* Solarwinds Northernlights * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* * 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 * *Blair "TUMP" May* * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Jun 8 19:27:04 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 17:27:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] top of pole with no galvy In-Reply-To: <653999fb-17fd-3eb1-85e1-fc8247bb62b4@sindelarsolar.com> References: <92B24C49-2778-48B1-A449-9F7E09B97BEF@mendocinosolar.com> <653999fb-17fd-3eb1-85e1-fc8247bb62b4@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <003e01d3ff80$3727ac40$a57704c0$@solarwork.com> Ditto I have replaced 3 of the Unirac top of pole thimbles with DP&W. The Unirac ones were too light weight. However, I have not had to deal with this in 4-5 years. Are the current TOP thimbles the same as 6-8 years ago? I spoke with Unirac & they were kind of dismissive. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Sindelar Solar Sent: Friday, June 08, 2018 10:19 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Jeff Randall Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] top of pole with no galvy Bruce, The very first time I saw UniRac's 'new' extruded aluminum hub at a show I figured it would fail over time, and I was assured that it wouldn't. It did. My best suggestion would be to talk with Jeff Randall at Solar Rackworks in Albuquerque. He welcomes custom work and produces beautiful racks. He was the VP and lead engineer at DP&W. Allan On 6/7/2018 5:02 PM, Bruce Erickson wrote: Hi All, I have a super particular customer who needs a small top-of-pole rack, but will not accept anything but aluminum or stainless (or bronze or titanium or . . ). No galvanized steel! Anyone have a lead on a rack manufacturer that has all aluminum pole tops, like Unirac used to make? Thanks. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax bruce at mendocinosolar.com Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994 -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Jun 8 19:36:37 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 17:36:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] steel cased industrial batteries In-Reply-To: References: <5D179B7D-0F42-49EB-9272-B1F1F59BDB8E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004801d3ff81$8c21b640$a46522c0$@solarwork.com> HUP Solar ones I have installed since ’94? http://hupsolarone.com/ I have only have one failure & I completely attribute the failure to a client who obviously “Knew way more than me”. He managed to kill a set in 1.2 years & wanted a warranty replacement. I told him to “forget it that, I was not going to submit a claim.” I have one client that has 23+ years on a set of HUPS. (I trained her well) I currently have a 2490-ahr/48-volt set on my offgrid home and love them. I am still holding off on LI batteries for a spell. All’yall please let me know how they are doing over time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Friday, June 08, 2018 10:53 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] steel cased industrial batteries Hi All, As someone who has loyally recommended, used and installed Rolls/Surrette batteries for 2 decades, I am interested to hear from those that have a decent history with both Rolls and HUP batteries. My experience with Rolls (in significant part do to my relationship with Roy at RAE) has been mostly very positive. Of course I've read of the glories of HUP batteries on this list for years as well, but have always chosen to stick with Rolls. While I am watching and waiting for L-ion development/pricing to make sense for folks that don't have tons of expendable income, for various reasons I am interested in direct comparisons of Rolls vs. HUP batteries in terms of failure rates, pricing, maintenance, break-in periods, etc. Feel free to respond on or off list as seems appropriate. As always,TIA for whatever input you are willing to share! Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ ​​Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 11:27 AM, Ray > wrote: HUP is made by Enersys. We've had great luck with them over the years, sold many sets. 2100 cycles to 80% DOD is written into the 10 yr warranty. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/8/18 8:54 AM, jay wrote: HI All, I’ve wondering if there are recommendations for steel cased flooded industrial batteries. Would be looking for 12v packs, 1500-2000 amp hr. There are many brands out there, HUP, IBE, Enersys, others? Its been a while since I’ve had to even look at them and I figured someone out there has some current info, recommendations, best price etc. thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Dan at Foxfire-Energy.com Sun Jun 10 17:18:45 2018 From: Dan at Foxfire-Energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 17:18:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Three phase lightning protection Message-ID: Anyone got a line on half decent three phase 600 V lightning suppression? delta 603 just ain’t getting it.. thanks Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Jun 10 17:37:14 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 17:37:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Three phase lightning protection Message-ID: <4d0t5ph5bcbv2n59pum454m5.1528666500822@email.lge.com> We use the APT Spdee line of surge devices and have been satisfied with them.Looks like they were bought by ASCO. http://www.ascopower.com/en-us/products-catalog/products/surge-protective-devices/asco-series-400-surge-protective-devices/ GlennSent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typographical errors. ------ Original message------From: Foxfire EnergyDate: Sun, Jun 10, 2018 5:18 PMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Three phase lightning protection Anyone got a line on half decent three phase 600 V lightning suppression? delta 603 just ain’t getting it.. thanks Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 10 17:56:54 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 14:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Three phase lightning protection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 3 Midnite 600v SPD's ! > > Anyone got a line on half decent three phase 600 V lightning suppression? > delta 603 just ain’t getting it.. thanks > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From ray at solarray.com Mon Jun 11 01:32:59 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 23:32:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Three phase lightning protection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78e16fbc-a234-57a2-9ec0-ac7c7810fb59@solarray.com> 2nd the Midnite's.  I quit having lightning related damage since I started using them.  Delta?  I think a Pet Rock might be more effective. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/10/18 3:56 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > 3 Midnite 600v SPD's ! > >> Anyone got a line on half decent three phase 600 V lightning suppression? >> delta 603 just ain’t getting it.. thanks >> >> Dan Brown >> Foxfire Energy Corp. >> (802)-483-2564 >> www.Foxfire-Energy.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jun 11 09:41:48 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 06:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Three phase lightning protection In-Reply-To: <78e16fbc-a234-57a2-9ec0-ac7c7810fb59@solarray.com> References: <78e16fbc-a234-57a2-9ec0-ac7c7810fb59@solarray.com> Message-ID: In really bad places I use both. The Midnite for precise protection and the Delta for a close hit! > 2nd the Midnite's.  I quit having lightning related damage since I > started using them.  Delta?  I think a Pet Rock might be more effective. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 6/10/18 3:56 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> 3 Midnite 600v SPD's ! >> >>> Anyone got a line on half decent three phase 600 V lightning >>> suppression? >>> delta 603 just ain’t getting it.. thanks >>> >>> Dan Brown >>> Foxfire Energy Corp. >>> (802)-483-2564 >>> www.Foxfire-Energy.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From corey at joule-energy.com Mon Jun 11 10:54:58 2018 From: corey at joule-energy.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 09:54:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RE-Wrenches Search Page Message-ID: Dori/John, Re. lightning protection, I would suggest searching the archives before posting any questions - this is a standard practice I use before sending any messages to their email address . Oddly enough there seem to be two search pages: - RE-Wrenches search page (1) - RE-Wrenches search page (2) I would suggest bookmarking these - I find myself referring to them quite often! -- Corey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Jun 11 11:10:36 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 11:10:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Painting anodized rails? In-Reply-To: <78e16fbc-a234-57a2-9ec0-ac7c7810fb59@solarray.com> References: <78e16fbc-a234-57a2-9ec0-ac7c7810fb59@solarray.com> Message-ID: <8f3a31de-4aa9-b8ad-63b6-d1c1073d45b9@entech-engineering.com> A customer has asked that I look into painting the exposed parts of the anodized rails on their roof mounted system to more closely match the shingles. (New construction, we did not know what the shingle color was going to be, and I have to say, I did not ask). Has anyone any experience with this?  Thank you for any help. Chris --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jun 11 13:08:30 2018 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 13:08:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Painting anodized rails? In-Reply-To: <8f3a31de-4aa9-b8ad-63b6-d1c1073d45b9@entech-engineering.com> References: <78e16fbc-a234-57a2-9ec0-ac7c7810fb59@solarray.com> <8f3a31de-4aa9-b8ad-63b6-d1c1073d45b9@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: We have been painting mill finish aluminum flashings for one large repeat customer, and I can tell you that it doesn't look great. I strongly question the long-term efficacy of this practice. But the customer is always right... so we do it despite our protests. I would refuse for a one-off job. I only do it because we have a contract for hundreds of homes and my bargaining position is not good. How much rail is really exposed anyway? We use Unirac's pro style end clamps the rails don't really stick out much anyway. Or use BoB panes with black rails and clamps. Jason On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:10 AM cwarfel wrote: > A customer has asked that I look into painting the exposed parts of the > anodized rails on their roof mounted system to more closely match the > shingles. (New construction, we did not know what the shingle color was > going to be, and I have to say, I did not ask). Has anyone any experience > with this? Thank you for any help. Chris > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401)466-8978 > > [image: EEI logo] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Jun 11 13:38:58 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 10:38:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Painting anodized rails? In-Reply-To: <8f3a31de-4aa9-b8ad-63b6-d1c1073d45b9@entech-engineering.com> References: <78e16fbc-a234-57a2-9ec0-ac7c7810fb59@solarray.com> <8f3a31de-4aa9-b8ad-63b6-d1c1073d45b9@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Aluminum takes well to spray paint primer followed by a coating of exterior spray paint such as Rust-Oleum. As I'm sure others will point out, I'm not sure how long it actually lasts. August Luminalt On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 8:10 AM cwarfel wrote: > A customer has asked that I look into painting the exposed parts of the > anodized rails on their roof mounted system to more closely match the > shingles. (New construction, we did not know what the shingle color was > going to be, and I have to say, I did not ask). Has anyone any experience > with this? Thank you for any help. Chris > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401)466-8978 > > [image: EEI logo] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Jun 11 13:40:13 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 13:40:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Painting anodized rails? In-Reply-To: References: <78e16fbc-a234-57a2-9ec0-ac7c7810fb59@solarray.com> <8f3a31de-4aa9-b8ad-63b6-d1c1073d45b9@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <711856bf-b6db-7e5f-f114-2d3de4362a1a@entech-engineering.com> Thanks Jason. Ihave been involved with educating firefighters on solar as part of my work and access is always an issue. So, I tell the customer that we are going to extend the rails past the array with an attachment so that we can access the roof and so can others. They did not remember that. It has an RS combiner on the roofwith a switch. The roof pitch is 12/12 with a badly graded front that precluded a boom lift getting to the west part. The roof was about 45' above the ground. We worked with harnesses and needed the extra rail to work safely and not destroy the shingles. I may try to screw an aluminum laminateto it. Will experiment first. I do think they will get used to it, but the rails are about 8" past the array do we could hit a rafter and not cantilever the rail. Design wind speed is now 140mph here.   Chris On 6/11/2018 1:08 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > We have been painting mill finish aluminum flashings for one large > repeat customer, and I can tell you that it doesn't look great. I > strongly question the long-term efficacy of this practice. But the > customer is always right... so we do it despite our protests. I would > refuse for a one-off job. I only do it because we have a contract for > hundreds of homes and my bargaining position is not good. > > How much rail is really exposed anyway?  We use Unirac's pro style end > clamps the rails don't really stick out much anyway. Or use BoB panes > with black rails and clamps. > > Jason > > > On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:10 AM cwarfel > > wrote: > > A customer has asked that I look into painting the exposed parts > of the anodized rails on their roof mounted system to more closely > match the shingles. (New construction, we did not know what the > shingle color was going to be, and I have to say, I did not ask).  > Has anyone any experience with this?  Thank you for any help. Chris > > > -- > >          Christopher Warfel, PE >        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                (401)466-8978 > > EEI logo > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 23:01:43 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 21:01:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen ES180-SL Message-ID: This is a long shot but does anyone have a spare Evergreen ES180-SL, or of similar vintage. If so, please contact me off-list. Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Jun 11 23:13:26 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 20:13:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Painting anodized rails? In-Reply-To: References: <78e16fbc-a234-57a2-9ec0-ac7c7810fb59@solarray.com> <8f3a31de-4aa9-b8ad-63b6-d1c1073d45b9@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Many times when we get close to the end of a 'rail run', mounting PVs, when the rail's end is still far enough away from the second or third from the last PV, we will measure exactly where the outside edge of the last PV will land.  We then undo 1 or 2 of the bolts attached to feet, pull the rail away from the roof a few inches and cut it there with a 6" cordless 'skilsaw' (clean cut and very little vibration using carbide blade) .  Because we use PLP P8 rail (formerly DPW) we re-bolt rail to feet and secure the very last PV's  edge with their back of frame flange clamp, P/N P8-ECU.  All this ends up either flush with or inside the end of the rail/PV edge.             Does painting new or anodized aluminum qualify for the tail-light warranty? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 6/11/2018 10:08 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: We have been painting mill finish aluminum flashings for one large repeat customer, and I can tell you that it doesn't look great. I strongly question the long-term efficacy of this practice. But the customer is always right... so we do it despite our protests. I would refuse for a one-off job. I only do it because we have a contract for hundreds of homes and my bargaining position is not good. How much rail is really exposed anyway?  We use Unirac's pro style end clamps the rails don't really stick out much anyway. Or use BoB panes with black rails and clamps. Jason On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:10 AM cwarfel > wrote: A customer has asked that I look into painting the exposed parts of the anodized rails on their roof mounted system to more closely match the shingles. (New construction, we did not know what the shingle color was going to be, and I have to say, I did not ask). Has anyone any experience with this?  Thank you for any help. Chris --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Jun 12 09:56:47 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 09:56:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Painting anodized rails? In-Reply-To: References: <78e16fbc-a234-57a2-9ec0-ac7c7810fb59@solarray.com> <8f3a31de-4aa9-b8ad-63b6-d1c1073d45b9@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <21119f23-4637-f166-02fe-2dc7cdd39581@entech-engineering.com> Thanks Bill, I am not worried about the rail warranty. My focus is to provide roof access for maintenance or firefighters, so that is why we extend the rail. The shingles can take a beating during any maintenance procedure and the extended rails provide a place to put one's feet without slipping.  These are RS compliant multimode systems, (dc). I could have thought this out differently, but the other options would have cantilevered the rail and I did not feel comfortable doing that. Chris On 6/11/2018 11:13 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Many times when we get close to the end of a 'rail run', mounting PVs, > when the rail's end is still far enough away from the second or third > from the last PV, we will measure exactly where the outside edge of > the last PV will land.  We then undo 1 or 2 of the bolts attached to > feet, pull the rail away from the roof a few inches and cut it there > with a 6" cordless 'skilsaw' (clean cut and very little vibration > using carbide blade) . Because we use PLP P8 rail (formerly DPW) we > re-bolt rail to feet and secure the very last PV's  edge with their > back of frame flange clamp, P/N P8-ECU.  All this ends up either flush > with or inside the end of the rail/PV edge. > >             Does painting new or anodized aluminum qualify for the > tail-light warranty? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > On 6/11/2018 10:08 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > We have been painting mill finish aluminum flashings for one large > repeat customer, and I can tell you that it doesn't look great. I > strongly question the long-term efficacy of this practice. But the > customer is always right... so we do it despite our protests. I would > refuse for a one-off job. I only do it because we have a contract for > hundreds of homes and my bargaining position is not good. > > How much rail is really exposed anyway?  We use Unirac's pro style end > clamps the rails don't really stick out much anyway. Or use BoB panes > with black rails and clamps. > > Jason > > > On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:10 AM cwarfel > > wrote: > > A customer has asked that I look into painting the exposed parts of > the anodized rails on their roof mounted system to more closely match > the shingles. (New construction, we did not know what the shingle > color was going to be, and I have to say, I did not ask).  Has anyone > any experience with this?  Thank you for any help. Chris > > > -- > >          Christopher Warfel, PE >        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                (401)466-8978 > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Wed Jun 13 13:29:14 2018 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 13:29:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase tech support Message-ID: <2552698a-0893-60a3-9f26-abc1709a15bf@four-winds-energy.com> Does anyone have contact information for Enphase Tech Support? Thanks in advance! -- Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com Check out the Annual Small Wind Conference A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers, & Distributors www.smallwindconference.com Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. From bill at berkssolar.com Wed Jun 13 14:44:53 2018 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 18:44:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase tech support In-Reply-To: <2552698a-0893-60a3-9f26-abc1709a15bf@four-winds-energy.com> References: <2552698a-0893-60a3-9f26-abc1709a15bf@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: <190117392.2335935.1528915493300@mail.yahoo.com> roy, here's the tech support number from the enlighten section. they ask to also have your site id ready when you call. https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/support also, enphase has cut staff and the wait is getting longer. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com From: Roy Butler To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 1:29 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase tech support Does anyone have contact information for Enphase Tech Support? Thanks in advance! -- Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747  www.four-winds-energy.com Check out the Annual Small Wind Conference A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers, & Distributors www.smallwindconference.com Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.                 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Jun 13 13:32:22 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 07:32:22 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase tech support In-Reply-To: <2552698a-0893-60a3-9f26-abc1709a15bf@four-winds-energy.com> References: <2552698a-0893-60a3-9f26-abc1709a15bf@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: <006001d4033c$7d58ce00$780a6a00$@com> My information re: Enphase tech support is that they can put you on hold for a very LONG time. marco -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Roy Butler Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 7:29 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase tech support Does anyone have contact information for Enphase Tech Support? Thanks in advance! -- Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com Check out the Annual Small Wind Conference A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers, & Distributors www.smallwindconference.com Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 15:16:09 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 09:16:09 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase tech support Message-ID: WrenchesEnphase now has a call back feature which has greatly improved responce1-877-797-4743Have site ID ready when you callJerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Bill Hennessy Date: 6/13/18 8:44 AM (GMT-10:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase tech support roy, here's the tech support number from the enlighten section. they ask to also have your site id ready when you call. https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/support also, enphase has cut staff and the wait is getting longer. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com From: Roy Butler To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 1:29 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase tech support Does anyone have contact information for Enphase Tech Support? Thanks in advance! -- Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747  www.four-winds-energy.com Check out the Annual Small Wind Conference A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers, & Distributors www.smallwindconference.com Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.                 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 14:58:13 2018 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 11:58:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase tech support In-Reply-To: <2552698a-0893-60a3-9f26-abc1709a15bf@four-winds-energy.com> References: <2552698a-0893-60a3-9f26-abc1709a15bf@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: 707-763-4784 On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 10:29 AM Roy Butler wrote: > Does anyone have contact information for Enphase Tech Support? > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > Roy Butler > Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC > 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 > 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com > > Check out the Annual Small Wind Conference > A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers, & Distributors > www.smallwindconference.com > > Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, > a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-884-1862 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Jun 14 13:28:07 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 13:28:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase tech support In-Reply-To: References: <2552698a-0893-60a3-9f26-abc1709a15bf@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: Roy, Nick Soleil is on the wrenches list and is employed by Enphase. Christopher Schaefer On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 2:58 PM, MDElectricSolar wrote: > 707-763-4784 > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 10:29 AM Roy Butler > wrote: > >> Does anyone have contact information for Enphase Tech Support? >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> -- >> Roy Butler >> Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC >> 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 >> 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com >> >> Check out the Annual Small Wind Conference >> A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers, & Distributors >> www.smallwindconference.com >> >> Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, >> a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-884-1862 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Jun 15 07:19:00 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 07:19:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase tech support In-Reply-To: References: <2552698a-0893-60a3-9f26-abc1709a15bf@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: <46bd1571-4b7c-b1e0-7539-8a97fd37e25a@entech-engineering.com> Nick Soleil, Can you please email me?  I hav been emailing (3 times) Enphase about a mistake  I believe in the IQ6 manual, and I have not received any response. The issue centers around what takes the inverter off line. It says phase to phase, but our recent experience is phase to neutral. The local utility's transformer's secondary winding was begining to fail. It blew the OCPD. The utility replaced the fuse, measured only phase to phase and thought everything was back in working order. We measured phase to neutral and let them know of the problem. According to what I can find, the IQ6 should have still operated onthe phase to phase voltage it was seeing, but all 26 IQ6s went of line. Thank you, Chris On 6/14/2018 1:28 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > Roy, > > Nick Soleil is on the wrenches list and is employed by Enphase. > > Christopher Schaefer > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 2:58 PM, MDElectricSolar > > wrote: > > 707-763-4784 > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 10:29 AM Roy Butler > > wrote: > > Does anyone have contact information for Enphase Tech Support? > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > Roy Butler > Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC > 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 > 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com > > > Check out the Annual Small Wind Conference > A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers, & Distributors > www.smallwindconference.com > > Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, > a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-884-1862 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com / > > / > / > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 17:48:06 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 11:48:06 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ABB tri 20's with arc fault Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 12:29:07 2018 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 12:29:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs Message-ID: wrenchers, what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? thanks adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Jun 17 13:46:29 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 13:46:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs Message-ID: We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for residential systems. -Glenn Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone ------ Original message------From: AE SolarDate: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs wrenchers,what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? thanksadam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 19:52:18 2018 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 19:52:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I always recommend grounding the metal roof also, even without panels on them. most of the sealing methods we use can insulate the rack from the roof S5 type clamps being an exception Just a couple thoughts from an overheated brain ! Bob Ellison > On Jun 17, 2018, at 1:46 PM, "glenn.burt at glbcc.com" wrote: > > We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for residential systems. > > -Glenn > > Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone > > ------ Original message------ > From: AE Solar > Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PM > To: RE-wrenches; > Cc: > Subject:[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs > > wrenchers, > what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? thanks > adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 20:46:11 2018 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 20:46:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: thanks glenn. and what about commercial? anyone have code references regarding grounding when doing solar on metal roofs? i thought a few years back there was a conversation on this but i can't seem to find it. Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:46 PM, glenn.burt at glbcc.com wrote: > We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for > residential systems. > > -Glenn > > *Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone* > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *AE Solar > *Date: *Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs > > wrenchers, > what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? thanks > adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Jun 17 21:17:02 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 21:17:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs Message-ID: Depends on the seam profile. Same device may be used in many cases. We have Also drilled and used the standard direct burial lugs on the underside of the pans, at the wave when they hang over enough to get working space. Then a horizontal run of copper wire to connect. Don't be lulled into thinking that S-5 clamps are listed for grounding roof pans - they are not. They are only listed for module bonding to ground. Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------From: AE SolarDate: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 8:46 PMTo: glenn.burt at glbcc.com;Cc: RE-wrenches;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs thanks glenn. and what about commercial? anyone have code references regarding grounding when doing solar on metal roofs? i thought a few years back there was a conversation on this but i can't seem to find it. Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:46 PM, glenn.burt at glbcc.com wrote: We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for residential systems. -Glenn Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone ------ Original message------From: AE SolarDate: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs wrenchers,what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? thanksadam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Jun 18 11:31:12 2018 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 09:31:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18B4EDF0-8435-44FB-93EF-61EDF0CB9B63@skyfireenergy.com> Glenn, Would you Bond/ground every metal pan or only the ones beneath the array? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Jun 17, 2018, at 11:46 AM, "glenn.burt at glbcc.com" wrote: > > We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for residential systems. > > -Glenn > > Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone > > ------ Original message------ > From: AE Solar > Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PM > To: RE-wrenches; > Cc: > Subject:[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs > > wrenchers, > what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? thanks > adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon Jun 18 13:01:14 2018 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 17:01:14 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EMP and PV modules Message-ID: I’ve done a quick search of the archives, but does anyone know of the the effects of an EMP PULSE on a module? We’ve got a potentially large project to look forward to, and one developer is very concerned Jeremy Rodriguez Solar installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 13:10:10 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:10:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EMP and PV modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Consider distance first EMP's may damage the baypass diodes but per the testing we have submitted to the military there was no damage to the cells modules Jerry On Jun 18, 2018 10:01 AM, "Jeremy Rodriguez" wrote: I’ve done a quick search of the archives, but does anyone know of the the effects of an EMP PULSE on a module? We’ve got a potentially large project to look forward to, and one developer is very concerned Jeremy Rodriguez Solar installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Jun 18 13:15:43 2018 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] EMP and PV modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1529342143.259512942@finestplanet.mymailsrvr.com> inverters and charge controllers are another story. todd On Monday, June 18, 2018 10:10am, "Jerry Shafer" said: Wrenches Consider distance first EMP's may damage the baypass diodes but per the testing we have submitted to the military there was no damage to the cells modules Jerry On Jun 18, 2018 10:01 AM, "Jeremy Rodriguez" <[ allsolarjeremy at msn.com ]( mailto:allsolarjeremy at msn.com )> wrote: I’ve done a quick search of the archives, but does anyone know of the the effects of an EMP PULSE on a module? We’ve got a potentially large project to look forward to, and one developer is very concerned Jeremy Rodriguez Solar installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ) List rules & etiquette: [ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at evcl.com Mon Jun 18 13:21:51 2018 From: david at evcl.com (David Coale) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:21:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EMP and PV modules In-Reply-To: <1529342143.259512942@finestplanet.mymailsrvr.com> References: <1529342143.259512942@finestplanet.mymailsrvr.com> Message-ID: Here is a link that talks about this and a mention of a supplier if interested - video near the bottom: https://solarpowerrocks.com/solar-questions/will-solar-panels-survive-nuclear-emp/ David > On Jun 18, 2018, at 10:15 AM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > > inverters and charge controllers are another story. > > todd > > > > > On Monday, June 18, 2018 10:10am, "Jerry Shafer" said: > > Wrenches > Consider distance first EMP's may damage the baypass diodes but per the testing we have submitted to the military there was no damage to the cells modules > Jerry > > On Jun 18, 2018 10:01 AM, "Jeremy Rodriguez" > wrote: > I’ve done a quick search of the archives, but does anyone know of the the effects of an EMP PULSE on a module? We’ve got a potentially large project to look forward to, and one developer is very concerned > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 13:28:26 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:28:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EMP and PV modules In-Reply-To: <1529342143.259512942@finestplanet.mymailsrvr.com> References: <1529342143.259512942@finestplanet.mymailsrvr.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Hawaii was hit in the mid last century by a EMP, it took out most of Honolulu, this was a post war test and it did confirm what can happen. This was before micro electronics so if it happens we,re back to the stone ages. On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 10:21 AM wrote: > inverters and charge controllers are another story. > > > > todd > > > > > > > > On Monday, June 18, 2018 10:10am, "Jerry Shafer" > said: > > Wrenches > Consider distance first EMP's may damage the baypass diodes but per the > testing we have submitted to the military there was no damage to the cells > modules > Jerry > > On Jun 18, 2018 10:01 AM, "Jeremy Rodriguez" > wrote: > > I’ve done a quick search of the archives, but does anyone know of the the > effects of an EMP PULSE on a module? We’ve got a potentially large project > to look forward to, and one developer is very concerned > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Jun 18 12:09:17 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 12:09:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs Message-ID: Just beneath the array, and usually the pan on either side of the array footprint. Glenn Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------From: Benn KilburnDate: Mon, Jun 18, 2018 11:31 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs Glenn,Would you Bond/ground every metal pan or only the ones beneath the array? Benn KilburnSkyFire Energy780-906-7807 On Jun 17, 2018, at 11:46 AM, "glenn.burt at glbcc.com" wrote: We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for residential systems. -Glenn Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone ------ Original message------From: AE SolarDate: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs wrenchers,what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? thanksadam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at willpowerelect.com Mon Jun 18 13:41:56 2018 From: bruce at willpowerelect.com (bruce at willpowerelect.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:41:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs Message-ID: <20180618104156.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.dc3a1e6439.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/jpeg Size: 4536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Jun 18 14:27:38 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:27:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs In-Reply-To: <20180618104156.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.dc3a1e6439.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> References: <20180618104156.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.dc3a1e6439.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <01d901d40732$0aadf980$2009ec80$@glbcc.com> NEC 250.4(A)4 Also states that normally non-current-carrying electrically conductive materials that are likely to become energized shall be connected together and to the electrical supply source in a manner that establishes an effective ground-fault current path. So the logic goes if an array develops a ground fault, and the faulted conductor contacts a metal roof surface, there is a possibility that the roof may become energized. So for many reasons, bond the roof to ground. -Glenn Renewable Energy Engineer – Cadmus Principal Engineer – Power Guru Principal – glb, Consulting Company From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of bruce at willpowerelect.com Sent: Monday, June 18, 2018 1:42 PM To: RE-wrenches ; AE Solar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs NEC 690.47 (A) requires the array to be grounded, not necessarily the roof. If you have bonded the rails and modules and your grounding conductor goes back to the service you should be good. 690.47 (B) allows installation of an auxiliary grounding electrode (ground rod or building steel). Not a bad idea in lightning prone areas. ;) Local AHJ may have different opinions. Bruce Fiero-RMI "Energizing the Rogue Valley" 4115 S Pacific Hwy Medford, OR 97501 P: 541.535.3965 F: 541.512.0061 E: bruce at willpowerelect.com W: Willpower Electric, LLC CCB 191852 Oregon Electrical Contractor C681 NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38 DUNS 191470363 Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs **This email may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or if it appears that you have received this email in error, please advise me immediately by reply email, keep the contents confidential, and immediately delete the message and any attachments from your system. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs From: "glenn.burt at glbcc.com " > Date: Sun, June 17, 2018 6:17 pm To: AE Solar > Cc: RE-wrenches > Depends on the seam profile. Same device may be used in many cases. We have Also drilled and used the standard direct burial lugs on the underside of the pans, at the wave when they hang over enough to get working space. Then a horizontal run of copper wire to connect. Don't be lulled into thinking that S-5 clamps are listed for grounding roof pans - they are not. They are only listed for module bonding to ground. Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------ From: AE Solar Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 8:46 PM To: glenn.burt at glbcc.com ; Cc: RE-wrenches; Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs thanks glenn. and what about commercial? anyone have code references regarding grounding when doing solar on metal roofs? i thought a few years back there was a conversation on this but i can't seem to find it. Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:46 PM, glenn.burt at glbcc.com > wrote: We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for residential systems. -Glenn Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone ------ Original message------ From: AE Solar Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PM To: RE-wrenches; Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs wrenchers, what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? thanks adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jun 18 15:51:25 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 13:51:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EMP and PV modules In-Reply-To: References: <1529342143.259512942@finestplanet.mymailsrvr.com> Message-ID: <131cee83-2d7b-6917-7853-9f38e35dc1d0@solarray.com> I've been dealing with a few customers with EMP concerns.  Just as we had to deal with the non-event of Y2K,  I think its extremely important to not exaggerate.  Saying that we will be back to the "Stone Age" is just not an accurate statement and contributes to the hype.  We've only had electronics for less than a century.  I think it might be more accurate to say we would be back to the 1950s, and that is definitely not the Stone Age. (maybe the Rolling Stones age?....) When it comes to fear, misinformation, and hype, you are either part of the problem, or you are part of the solution.  I've spent time recently in places in Puerto Rico, where the grid has been down for over 9 months.  No cannibalism, no anarchy, no stone age.  Instead I saw neighbors helping each other, everyone trying to get by, but still remaining basically civil.  If we do have a big EMP event, we will deal with it and get back in action, in months, not centuries. I always reiterate this fact: Electricity is not essential to Life.  (cue the collective gasps from my fellow electricians....) We might actually get off our stupid phones long enough to look around and enjoy ourselves too. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/18/18 11:28 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Hawaii was hit in the mid last century by a EMP, it took out most of > Honolulu, this was a post war test and it did confirm what can happen. > This was before micro electronics so if it happens we,re back to the > stone ages. > > On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 10:21 AM > wrote: > > inverters and charge controllers are another story. > > todd > > > > On Monday, June 18, 2018 10:10am, "Jerry Shafer" > > said: > > Wrenches > Consider distance first EMP's may damage the baypass diodes but > per the testing we have submitted to the military there was no > damage to the cells modules > Jerry > > On Jun 18, 2018 10:01 AM, "Jeremy Rodriguez" > > wrote: > > I’ve done a quick search of the archives, but does anyone know > of the the effects of an EMP PULSE on a module? We’ve got a > potentially large project to look forward to, and one > developer is very concerned > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Tue Jun 19 22:33:40 2018 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 21:33:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silicon energy Message-ID: <1DFC67B8-0D63-4B7D-BD94-0931F498A984@gmail.com> Hello, Silicon energy shuttered it’s plant in MN a few years ago but when they opened the college I teach at purchased 32 modules. Well we had two from the first run delaminate this winter. They are on our dorm building. This is a shot in the dark, but any chance anyone has two of these sitting around? I can make the system work with 8 modules but I’d rather just slide two in. I’m guessing this is just going to keep happening. These modules are 6 or 7 years old. Thanks Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone From frenergy at psln.com Wed Jun 20 00:52:54 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 21:52:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low output In-Reply-To: <1DFC67B8-0D63-4B7D-BD94-0931F498A984@gmail.com> References: <1DFC67B8-0D63-4B7D-BD94-0931F498A984@gmail.com> Message-ID: <896041ba-3dbe-a9ef-ec7c-d28c697c330e@psln.com> Off-gridders,             Small 24 volt off-grid install.....new installation, 3, 285 watt PVs in series, 4, L-16's in series, Midnight "Kid" CC.  Problem: I cannot get more than about 200 watts (8-9 amps battery side) out of the Kid display in full noon sun, clean PVs. Should be 700 watts plus and about 28 amps.  Bulk/Absorb set at 29V, battery voltage at ~25 V (pulled down with a heat gun).  I changed that Kid out for another new one> Same issue!  I disconnected the PV wires where they land in the Kid and got 9.3 amps short circuit, 105 volts oc  Called Midnight tech support but we couldn't come up with a good solution.  Ideas? Thx, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dana at solarwork.com Wed Jun 20 08:22:21 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 06:22:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low output In-Reply-To: <896041ba-3dbe-a9ef-ec7c-d28c697c330e@psln.com> References: <1DFC67B8-0D63-4B7D-BD94-0931F498A984@gmail.com> <896041ba-3dbe-a9ef-ec7c-d28c697c330e@psln.com> Message-ID: <000a01d40891$57603530$06209f90$@solarwork.com> Try another brand of CC? I have had same issue /different manufacturer and had dead out of the box replacement & same issue with the replacement. Are there any adjustable potentiometers, I do not know this CC? I have recently had 2 trouble shoots [with old C-40s] that were low CC output & moved the pots higher & lower and voila the CC worked again. Very frustrating to say the least. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 10:53 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low output Off-gridders, Small 24 volt off-grid install.....new installation, 3, 285 watt PVs in series, 4, L-16's in series, Midnight "Kid" CC. Problem: I cannot get more than about 200 watts (8-9 amps battery side) out of the Kid display in full noon sun, clean PVs. Should be 700 watts plus and about 28 amps. Bulk/Absorb set at 29V, battery voltage at ~25 V (pulled down with a heat gun). I changed that Kid out for another new one> Same issue! I disconnected the PV wires where they land in the Kid and got 9.3 amps short circuit, 105 volts oc Called Midnight tech support but we couldn't come up with a good solution. Ideas? Thx, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Wed Jun 20 08:57:14 2018 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 08:57:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low output In-Reply-To: <000a01d40891$57603530$06209f90$@solarwork.com> References: <1DFC67B8-0D63-4B7D-BD94-0931F498A984@gmail.com> <896041ba-3dbe-a9ef-ec7c-d28c697c330e@psln.com> <000a01d40891$57603530$06209f90$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Do you have access to a Seaward PV tester? This would eliminate the array. When landing your conductors in the Kid be sure to run individual negatives to their respective terminals. The manual highlights this. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Jun 20, 2018, at 8:22 AM, Dana wrote: > > Try another brand of CC? > I have had same issue /different manufacturer and had dead out of the box replacement & same issue with the replacement. > Are there any adjustable potentiometers, I do not know this CC? > I have recently had 2 trouble shoots [with old C-40s] that were low CC output & moved the pots higher & lower and voila the CC worked again. Very frustrating to say the least. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of frenergy > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 10:53 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low output > > Off-gridders, > > Small 24 volt off-grid install.....new installation, 3, 285 watt PVs in series, 4, L-16's in series, Midnight "Kid" CC. Problem: I cannot get more than about 200 watts (8-9 amps battery side) out of the Kid display in full noon sun, clean PVs. Should be 700 watts plus and about 28 amps. Bulk/Absorb set at 29V, battery voltage at ~25 V (pulled down with a heat gun). I changed that Kid out for another new one> Same issue! I disconnected the PV wires where they land in the Kid and got > 9.3 amps short circuit, 105 volts oc Called Midnight tech support but we couldn't come up with a good solution. Ideas? > > Thx, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image2.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 156502 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Jun 20 08:06:43 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 08:06:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low output Message-ID: Have you got another manufacturer's cc you could swap in temporarily? Do you have a load on the batteries? Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------From: frenergyDate: Wed, Jun 20, 2018 12:51 AMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Low output Off-gridders,             Small 24 volt off-grid install.....new installation, 3, 285 watt PVs in series, 4, L-16's in series, Midnight "Kid" CC.  Problem: I cannot get more than about 200 watts (8-9 amps battery side) out of the Kid display in full noon sun, clean PVs. Should be 700 watts plus and about 28 amps.  Bulk/Absorb set at 29V, battery voltage at ~25 V (pulled down with a heat gun).  I changed that Kid out for another new one> Same issue!  I disconnected the PV wires where they land in the Kid and got 9.3 amps short circuit, 105 volts oc  Called Midnight tech support but we couldn't come up with a good solution.  Ideas? Thx, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Jun 20 10:54:04 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 10:54:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low output In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are your batteries fully charged? FLA batts?, check w/ a refractometer or set the Kid to EQ. T Also check/cycle the combiner box breakers to off then on as they are center trip breakers and putting the cover on sometimes can trip them. Also while in the combiner box check for individual polarity and V/I. T > On Jun 20, 2018, at 8:06 AM, glenn.burt at glbcc.com wrote: > > Have you got another manufacturer's cc you could swap in temporarily? > > Do you have a load on the batteries? > > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. > > ------ Original message------ > From: frenergy > Date: Wed, Jun 20, 2018 12:51 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ; > Cc: > Subject:[RE-wrenches] Low output > > Off-gridders, > > Small 24 volt off-grid install.....new installation, 3, 285 > watt PVs in series, 4, L-16's in series, Midnight "Kid" CC. Problem: I > cannot get more than about 200 watts (8-9 amps battery side) out of the > Kid display in full noon sun, clean PVs. Should be 700 watts plus and > about 28 amps. Bulk/Absorb set at 29V, battery voltage at ~25 V (pulled > down with a heat gun). I changed that Kid out for another new one> Same > issue! I disconnected the PV wires where they land in the Kid and got > 9.3 amps short circuit, 105 volts oc Called Midnight tech support but > we couldn't come up with a good solution. Ideas? > > Thx, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org /maillist.ht ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mikek at spiritsolar.net Wed Jun 20 10:12:23 2018 From: mikek at spiritsolar.net (Mike Kocsmiersky) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 14:12:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] RE-Low Output frenergy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <119619058.2536213.1529503943569@mail.yahoo.com> My quick guess would be that the controller is not MPPT tracking and connecting as if direct to the battery, operating the series string of 3 285 W modules very low voltage on their IV curve, limiting to 24V at about 9A yielding about 200W.Not familiar enough with the controller to know if there is a setting for MPPT tracking or not.  Seems like its a wide range buck transformer that most likely always tracks MPPT.  Something to look into perhaps.Mike KocsmierskySpirit Solar From: "re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org" To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 8:57 AM Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 11, Issue 197 Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to     re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit     http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to     re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org You can reach the person managing the list at     re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. Today's Topics:   1. Silicon  energy (Solar)   2. Low output (frenergy)   3. Re: Low output (Dana)   4. Re: Low output (Rick Brown) Hello, Silicon energy shuttered it’s plant in MN a few years ago but when they opened the college I teach at purchased 32 modules. Well we had two from the first run delaminate this winter. They are on our dorm building. This is a shot in the dark, but any chance anyone has two of these sitting around? I can make the system work with 8 modules but I’d rather just slide two in. I’m guessing this is just going to keep happening. These modules are 6 or 7 years old. Thanks Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone Off-gridders,             Small 24 volt off-grid install.....new installation, 3, 285 watt PVs in series, 4, L-16's in series, Midnight "Kid" CC.  Problem: I cannot get more than about 200 watts (8-9 amps battery side) out of the Kid display in full noon sun, clean PVs. Should be 700 watts plus and about 28 amps.  Bulk/Absorb set at 29V, battery voltage at ~25 V (pulled down with a heat gun).  I changed that Kid out for another new one> Same issue!  I disconnected the PV wires where they land in the Kid and got 9.3 amps short circuit, 105 volts oc  Called Midnight tech support but we couldn't come up with a good solution.  Ideas? Thx, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus Try another brand of CC? I have had same issue /different manufacturer and had dead out of the box replacement & same issue with the replacement.Are there any adjustable potentiometers, I do not know this CC? I have recently had 2 trouble shoots [with old C-40s] that were low CC output & moved the pots higher & lower and voila the CC worked again.   Very frustrating to say the least.    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.comIdaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374NABCEP # 051112-136                       www.solarwork.biz"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"   Please consider the environment before printing this email.    -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 10:53 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low output  Off-gridders,               Small 24 volt off-grid install.....new installation, 3, 285 watt PVs in series, 4, L-16's in series, Midnight "Kid" CC.  Problem: I cannot get more than about 200 watts (8-9 amps battery side) out of the Kid display in full noon sun, clean PVs. Should be 700 watts plus and about 28 amps.  Bulk/Absorb set at 29V, battery voltage at ~25 V (pulled down with a heat gun).  I changed that Kid out for another new one> Same issue!  I disconnected the PV wires where they land in the Kid and got9.3 amps short circuit, 105 volts oc  Called Midnight tech support but we couldn't come up with a good solution.  Ideas?  Thx,  Bill  Feather River Solar ElectricBill Battagin, Owner4291 Nelson St.Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net    ---This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.https://www.avast.com/antivirus    _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood Alliance  List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org  Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org  List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html  List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm  Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org  Do you have access to a Seaward PV tester? This would eliminate the array.  When landing your conductors in the Kid be sure to run individual negatives to their respective terminals. The manual highlights this.  rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer   NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 On Jun 20, 2018, at 8:22 AM, Dana wrote: Try another brand of CC? I have had same issue /different manufacturer and had dead out of the box replacement & same issue with the replacement.Are there any adjustable potentiometers, I do not know this CC? I have recently had 2 trouble shoots [with old C-40s] that were low CC output & moved the pots higher & lower and voila the CC worked again.   Very frustrating to say the least.    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.comIdaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374NABCEP # 051112-136                       www.solarwork.biz"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"   Please consider the environment before printing this email.    -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 10:53 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low output  Off-gridders,               Small 24 volt off-grid install.....new installation, 3, 285 watt PVs in series, 4, L-16's in series, Midnight "Kid" CC.  Problem: I cannot get more than about 200 watts (8-9 amps battery side) out of the Kid display in full noon sun, clean PVs. Should be 700 watts plus and about 28 amps.  Bulk/Absorb set at 29V, battery voltage at ~25 V (pulled down with a heat gun).  I changed that Kid out for another new one> Same issue!  I disconnected the PV wires where they land in the Kid and got9.3 amps short circuit, 105 volts oc  Called Midnight tech support but we couldn't come up with a good solution.  Ideas?  Thx,  Bill  Feather River Solar ElectricBill Battagin, Owner4291 Nelson St.Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net    ---This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.https://www.avast.com/antivirus    _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood Alliance  List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org  Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org  List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html  List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm  Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image2.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 156502 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 11:49:46 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 08:49:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low output In-Reply-To: <896041ba-3dbe-a9ef-ec7c-d28c697c330e@psln.com> References: <1DFC67B8-0D63-4B7D-BD94-0931F498A984@gmail.com> <896041ba-3dbe-a9ef-ec7c-d28c697c330e@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill Leave the PV off for a day or so it drop the battery voltage down, yes way down to say 1 or 2 above your LVD, then at mid day turn on the PV at this point your system should go WOT and you should see the output expected. The biggest reason why you are not seeing the amps is demand and the range of a 24 volt system is pretty tight, because you are "off grid" the pv system is responce based and without demand there is just the float output, whereas connected to the grid you can always max out power. As a seperate note you can push FLA L-16 to 31 volts adjusting for temps Jerry On Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 9:51 PM frenergy wrote: > Off-gridders, > > Small 24 volt off-grid install.....new installation, 3, 285 > watt PVs in series, 4, L-16's in series, Midnight "Kid" CC. Problem: I > cannot get more than about 200 watts (8-9 amps battery side) out of the > Kid display in full noon sun, clean PVs. Should be 700 watts plus and > about 28 amps. Bulk/Absorb set at 29V, battery voltage at ~25 V (pulled > down with a heat gun). I changed that Kid out for another new one> Same > issue! I disconnected the PV wires where they land in the Kid and got > 9.3 amps short circuit, 105 volts oc Called Midnight tech support but > we couldn't come up with a good solution. Ideas? > > Thx, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Wed Jun 20 15:15:06 2018 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 12:15:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pro Harvest Inverters (Formerly HI-Q) Message-ID: Wrenches, Anyone have any experience with the Pro Harvest inverters (now branded by Outback)? They were previously known as HI-Q inverters I believe and they come in 3PH 208V & 480V and are super-small and light weight. Just wondering on their reliability or any known issues since they are relatively new. -- *Lorenzo Ortiz Commercial PV Designer* lorenzo at cal-solar.com* (530) 274-3671* -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Wed Jun 20 15:22:12 2018 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 12:22:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pro Harvest Inverters (Formerly HI-Q) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have installed 500-1,000 of them (both 208V and 480V). They are great, EXCEPT for reliability. We have some jobs with 30+ inverters, on which we have over 100% replacement rate (ie, all inverters have been replaced, and at least some of the replacements have also been replaced). Hi-Q has been trying to learn from the various failure modes, and gradually making improvements to reliability. If they ever get to the point of a reasonable failure rate, it could be a great product. Blake Sun Light & Power On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 12:15 PM, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: > Wrenches, > > Anyone have any experience with the Pro Harvest inverters (now branded by > Outback)? > They were previously known as HI-Q inverters I believe and they come in > 3PH 208V & 480V and are super-small and light weight. > > Just wondering on their reliability or any known issues since they are > relatively new. > > -- > *Lorenzo Ortiz Commercial PV Designer* > > lorenzo at cal-solar.com* (530) 274-3671* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- * Blake Gleason* - PE, LEED AP *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* *P:* 510.845.2997 x128 *E:* blake at sunlightandpower.com *W:* sunlightandpower.com See how universities are using business as a force for good with solar! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Jun 20 15:40:28 2018 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 14:40:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pro Harvest Inverters (Formerly HI-Q) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My experience has been much like Blake's, with the difference being they were all in the Northeast, both roof and ground mounts, all 480 V. That was a couple of years back, and I know some smart folks have been working on this product in the meantime. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 520.204.6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 2:22 PM, Blake Gleason wrote: > We have installed 500-1,000 of them (both 208V and 480V). They are great, > EXCEPT for reliability. We have some jobs with 30+ inverters, on which we > have over 100% replacement rate (ie, all inverters have been replaced, and > at least some of the replacements have also been replaced). Hi-Q has been > trying to learn from the various failure modes, and gradually making > improvements to reliability. If they ever get to the point of a reasonable > failure rate, it could be a great product. > > Blake > Sun Light & Power > > On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 12:15 PM, Lorenzo Ortiz > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> Anyone have any experience with the Pro Harvest inverters (now branded by >> Outback)? >> They were previously known as HI-Q inverters I believe and they come in >> 3PH 208V & 480V and are super-small and light weight. >> >> Just wondering on their reliability or any known issues since they are >> relatively new. >> >> -- >> *Lorenzo Ortiz Commercial PV Designer* >> >> lorenzo at cal-solar.com* (530) 274-3671* >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Blake Gleason* - PE, LEED AP > *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* > > *P:* 510.845.2997 x128 > *E:* blake at sunlightandpower.com > *W:* sunlightandpower.com > > See how universities are using business as a force for good with solar! > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Wed Jun 20 12:08:52 2018 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 09:08:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low output In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <636f3e16-f2a1-3ce2-6897-1e426df39c44@midnitesolar.com> All great questions.  Sounds like the battery voltage is below set-point (29V) using the heat gun which is the thing to do to drag its V down.  The Kid should have gone back to MPPT (Bulk, Float or EQ) in a few moments after doing that. The sanity check for tracking is to note the Voc (105V), which you did...  Then note the PV input voltage while the CC is in MPPT mode.  The input voltage should be somewhere between around 75% to 83% of that Voc.  If it is higher than that (87V for 105V Voc)  then the CC is trying to reduce its output current for some reason...  Either it thinks the battery voltage is above set-point voltage (battery temperature compensation?), or is current limiting  (not in your case)...  OR, maybe the Kid is over temperature and is throttling back its output ? You swapped in another Kid so that is probably not it. If the input voltage is below the set-point voltage, (less than a out 77 volts), then that is an indication of either a shaded panel (not the issue it would seem) or maybe a bad panel or high resistance connection or something else. If the PV input voltage is where it should be (between around 80 volts), then the array is putting out as much as it can in the present conditions.  So if that is the case, or the PV voltage is below max power point (< ~77V), then I would check for bad connections or current limiting from the PV array by short circuiting the PV array and measuring the current with a clamp on meter or whatever you have.  Make sure to turn off or disconnect one of the PV wires from the Kid input when doing that.  If you measure much lower than you expect for that array then you've more than likely got a bad connection in the array or wiring down on the ground in the BOS box or PV breaker maybe. Keep us posted. Thanks, boB Gudgel On 6/20/2018 7:54 AM, Tump wrote: > Are your batteries fully charged? FLA batts?, check w/ a refractometer > or set the Kid to EQ. T > Also check/cycle the combiner box breakers to off then on as they are > center trip breakers and putting the cover on sometimes can trip them. > Also while in the combiner box check for individual polarity and V/I. T >> On Jun 20, 2018, at 8:06 AM, glenn.burt at glbcc.com >> wrote: >> >> Have you got another manufacturer's cc you could swap in temporarily? >> >> Do you have a load on the batteries? >> >> Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> *From: *frenergy >> *Date: *Wed, Jun 20, 2018 12:51 AM >> *To: *re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ; >> *Cc: * >> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Low output >> >> Off-gridders, >> >>             Small 24 volt off-grid install.....new installation, 3, 285 >> watt PVs in series, 4, L-16's in series, Midnight "Kid" CC.  Problem: I >> cannot get more than about 200 watts (8-9 amps battery side) out of the >> Kid display in full noon sun, clean PVs. Should be 700 watts plus and >> about 28 amps.  Bulk/Absorb set at 29V, battery voltage at ~25 V (pulled >> down with a heat gun).  I changed that Kid out for another new one> Same >> issue!  I disconnected the PV wires where they land in the Kid and got >> 9.3 amps short circuit, 105 volts oc  Called Midnight tech support but >> we couldn't come up with a good solution.  Ideas? >> >> Thx, >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA95983 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> /maillist.ht ml >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> *Tump at swnl.net >> **www.SWNL.net* >> >> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >> */       Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >> /**/   207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401 /* >> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >> >> */             ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**//**/NABCEP    "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >> /**/ >>               ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**/Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tech at aessolar.com Thu Jun 21 10:26:09 2018 From: tech at aessolar.com (Advanced Energy Solutions) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 09:26:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters through the same disconnect Message-ID: I ran 2 inverters through the same 3 blade (using 2 blades with one leg of each inverter going though) disconnect but the utility engineer wants me to have a disconnect for each inverter. I can't find the code that says that is allowed -- I invite you to visit our showroom at 1804 Supply Road Carterville IL. #GetEnergized w/Renewable Energy #GoSolar, PEACE> Aur J Beck, PV Installation Professional™ certification #032611-24 PV Technical Sales Professional™ PVTS032412-6 chief tech of Energy Network (Green Geek Squad*™ *) Advanced Energy Solutions Group, Inc (618) 893-1717 | (800) 229-0453 | www.AESsolar.com | tech at AESsolar.com We Empower YOU to Get Energized! Why choose us: Installing since 1999 PV Installation Professional™ certification #032611-24 PV Technical Sales Professional™ PVTS032412-6 We only do solar so we are not doing this part time Our chief tech has lived off grid for 18 years We have designed and worked on tiny off grid systems all the way up to 100kW systems We have a strong focus on education so we try to set up systems to be showcased We design and install systems to last the full 25 year warranty of the modules Be an Energy Patriot Living on Earth is Expensive, but it does include a FREE trip around the Sun! Oil Addicts Anonymous International (a real 12 step program) www.IamanOilAddict.org This communication is the property of Advanced Energy Solutions Group, Inc and is intended only for use by the recipient identified. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete the original communication. Any use of this message without the Advanced Energy Solutions Group, Inc's consent is prohibited. ü Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 10:39:06 2018 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 10:39:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wood pellet stove for off grid Message-ID: <5b2bb88a.1c69fb81.119e9.626a@mx.google.com> Wrenchsters, I am looking for advice on selecting the right wood pellet stove for an off grid house that will not be using regular firewood any longer. • It will be in the basement so the appearance doesn’t matter. • The home also has non electric LP gas heat. Looking for a secondary source for security and to guard against gas price increase. • The home is 1,000 sq ft. 1-1/2 story (plus basement). Home has large air movement grates up to first and second floor for heat. • Rental home – so reliable operation is valued • Would like auto feed on pellet stove • Low power draw is important as this is located in Vermont where the sun doesn’t shine much in the winter. I have heard that Harman stoves are high quality but they are expensive and owner doesn’t need the stove to look like it belongs in the living room. Thanks in advance, David Palumbo Hyde Park, Vermont Sent from Mail for Windows 10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 11:24:28 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 10:24:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters through the same disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The first thought I have is the inverters have a maximum input current rating if you parallel then you need overcurrent protective device downstream from the paralleling disconnect. Also PV systems 690.13 must disconnect all conductors from all sources of power. I agree your solution appears to be correct. multiple inverters on a single disconnect happen with microinverters. On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 9:26 AM Advanced Energy Solutions wrote: > I ran 2 inverters through the same 3 blade (using 2 blades with one leg of > each inverter going though) disconnect but the utility engineer wants me to > have a disconnect for each inverter. > > I can't find the code that says that is allowed > > -- > I invite you to visit our showroom at 1804 Supply Road Carterville IL. > > #GetEnergized w/Renewable Energy #GoSolar, PEACE> > Aur J Beck, > > PV Installation Professional™ certification #032611-24 > PV Technical Sales Professional™ PVTS032412-6 > chief tech of Energy Network (Green Geek Squad*™ *) > Advanced Energy Solutions Group, Inc > (618) 893-1717 | (800) 229-0453 | www.AESsolar.com > | tech at AESsolar.com > > We Empower YOU to Get Energized! > > Why choose us: > Installing since 1999 > > PV Installation Professional™ certification #032611-24 > PV Technical Sales Professional™ PVTS032412-6 > We only do solar so we are not doing this part time > Our chief tech has lived off grid for 18 years > We have designed and worked on tiny off grid systems all the way up to > 100kW systems > We have a strong focus on education so we try to set up systems to be > showcased > We design and install systems to last the full 25 year warranty of the > modules > > Be an Energy Patriot > > Living on Earth is Expensive, but it does include a FREE trip around the > Sun! > > Oil Addicts Anonymous International (a real 12 step program) > www.IamanOilAddict.org > > This communication is the property of Advanced Energy Solutions Group, Inc > and is intended only for use by the recipient identified. If you have > received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender > and delete the original communication. Any use of this message without the > Advanced Energy Solutions Group, Inc's consent is prohibited. > ü Please consider the environment before printing this email. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 11:59:51 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 08:59:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multiple inverters through the same disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches First is this a three phase install or single phase using a three phase to be the disco. If we have an install with more than one inverter not including enphase, we always have a sub panel to bring each inverter together and protect each inverter, then it exits to a disconnect fusable if a tap or non fuse if connecting to a panel. If this is three phase it would be basicly the same idea just all three phase components. With enphase it would be strings of up to the max acting the same as one inverter and that would also go through the sub panel. Jerry On Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 7:26 AM Advanced Energy Solutions wrote: > I ran 2 inverters through the same 3 blade (using 2 blades with one leg of > each inverter going though) disconnect but the utility engineer wants me to > have a disconnect for each inverter. > > I can't find the code that says that is allowed > > -- > I invite you to visit our showroom at 1804 Supply Road Carterville IL. > > #GetEnergized w/Renewable Energy #GoSolar, PEACE> > Aur J Beck, > > PV Installation Professional™ certification #032611-24 > PV Technical Sales Professional™ PVTS032412-6 > chief tech of Energy Network (Green Geek Squad*™ *) > Advanced Energy Solutions Group, Inc > (618) 893-1717 | (800) 229-0453 | www.AESsolar.com > | tech at AESsolar.com > > We Empower YOU to Get Energized! > > Why choose us: > Installing since 1999 > > PV Installation Professional™ certification #032611-24 > PV Technical Sales Professional™ PVTS032412-6 > We only do solar so we are not doing this part time > Our chief tech has lived off grid for 18 years > We have designed and worked on tiny off grid systems all the way up to > 100kW systems > We have a strong focus on education so we try to set up systems to be > showcased > We design and install systems to last the full 25 year warranty of the > modules > > Be an Energy Patriot > > Living on Earth is Expensive, but it does include a FREE trip around the > Sun! > > Oil Addicts Anonymous International (a real 12 step program) > www.IamanOilAddict.org > > This communication is the property of Advanced Energy Solutions Group, Inc > and is intended only for use by the recipient identified. If you have > received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender > and delete the original communication. Any use of this message without the > Advanced Energy Solutions Group, Inc's consent is prohibited. > ü Please consider the environment before printing this email. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 12:33:03 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 10:33:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wood pellet stove for off grid In-Reply-To: <5b2bb88a.1c69fb81.119e9.626a@mx.google.com> References: <5b2bb88a.1c69fb81.119e9.626a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: While I can't make any recommendations on specific brand or models of electric feed pellet heaters, I advise you to be careful if your client's inverter does not provide a "pure" sine wave; I have seen issues with pellet heaters, boilers, smokers, refrigerators etc that can't handle a modified square wave. There are gravity-fed pellet stoves available that need no electricity at all - look at Wiseway and US Stove. They are large and ugly, but any electric pellet heater that won't function properly on your clients inverter is worse than ugly. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 8:39 AM, David Palumbo wrote: > Wrenchsters, > > > > I am looking for advice on selecting the right wood pellet stove for an > off grid house that will not be using regular firewood any longer. > > - It will be in the basement so the appearance doesn’t matter. > - The home also has non electric LP gas heat. Looking for a secondary > source for security and to guard against gas price increase. > - The home is 1,000 sq ft. 1-1/2 story (plus basement). Home has large > air movement grates up to first and second floor for heat. > - Rental home – so reliable operation is valued > - Would like auto feed on pellet stove > - Low power draw is important as this is located in Vermont where the > sun doesn’t shine much in the winter. > > I have heard that Harman stoves are high quality but they are expensive > and owner doesn’t need the stove to look like it belongs in the living room. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > David Palumbo > > Hyde Park, Vermont > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 11:50:44 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 08:50:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wood pellet stove for off grid In-Reply-To: <5b2bb88a.1c69fb81.119e9.626a@mx.google.com> References: <5b2bb88a.1c69fb81.119e9.626a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4C4CCD93-61F7-4B65-BCAD-B04A18CB58B7@gmail.com> Hi david, As someone who has a pellet stove, I wouldn’t buy another. I’d go with a kerosene heater, direct vent. Cheaper to operate, bulk fuel, cleaner, no mx, and probably uses less electrical energy and more efficient I think. ( no glow bar to start the burn cycle). Jay Peltz Power > On Jun 21, 2018, at 7:39 AM, David Palumbo wrote: > > Wrenchsters, > > I am looking for advice on selecting the right wood pellet stove for an off grid house that will not be using regular firewood any longer. > It will be in the basement so the appearance doesn’t matter. > The home also has non electric LP gas heat. Looking for a secondary source for security and to guard against gas price increase. > The home is 1,000 sq ft. 1-1/2 story (plus basement). Home has large air movement grates up to first and second floor for heat. > Rental home – so reliable operation is valued > Would like auto feed on pellet stove > Low power draw is important as this is located in Vermont where the sun doesn’t shine much in the winter. > I have heard that Harman stoves are high quality but they are expensive and owner doesn’t need the stove to look like it belongs in the living room. > > Thanks in advance, > David Palumbo > Hyde Park, Vermont > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 21 12:23:39 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 09:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wood pellet stove for off grid In-Reply-To: <5b2bb88a.1c69fb81.119e9.626a@mx.google.com> References: <5b2bb88a.1c69fb81.119e9.626a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8f771b874db0923db9066b33cd1c6285.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I have been looking at https://www.osburn-mfg.com/en/products/pellet-stoves/2500-pellet-stove/#fiche-technique For an elderly client who wants to not deal with fire wood. This unit uses about 100 watts if on all the time and about 300 to ignite. If you find something nicer or lower power consumption I would appreciate a link. The Brand Osburn is excellent and they have supported their wood stoves to me and clients for at least 30 years. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Wrenchsters, > > I am looking for advice on selecting the right wood pellet stove for an > off grid house that will not be using regular firewood any longer. > • It will be in the basement so the appearance doesn’t matter. > • The home also has non electric LP gas heat. Looking for a secondary > source for security and to guard against gas price increase. > • The home is 1,000 sq ft. 1-1/2 story (plus basement). Home has large > air movement grates up to first and second floor for heat. > • Rental home – so reliable operation is valued > • Would like auto feed on pellet stove > • Low power draw is important as this is located in Vermont where the > sun doesn’t shine much in the winter. > I have heard that Harman stoves are high quality but they are expensive > and owner doesn’t need the stove to look like it belongs in the living > room. > > Thanks in advance, > David Palumbo > Hyde Park, Vermont > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From gpgridtie at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 13:49:07 2018 From: gpgridtie at gmail.com (Bob Maynard) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 10:49:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wood pellet stove for off grid In-Reply-To: <5b2bb88a.1c69fb81.119e9.626a@mx.google.com> References: <5b2bb88a.1c69fb81.119e9.626a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi David, I have heard positive things about Wiseway, non electric, gravity feed pellet stove. Used to be made here in Oregon, now part of US Stove Company and I think available through Home Depot. http://www.usstove.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=3466 Best Regards, Bob Maynard On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 7:39 AM, David Palumbo wrote: > Wrenchsters, > > > > I am looking for advice on selecting the right wood pellet stove for an > off grid house that will not be using regular firewood any longer. > > - It will be in the basement so the appearance doesn’t matter. > - The home also has non electric LP gas heat. Looking for a secondary > source for security and to guard against gas price increase. > - The home is 1,000 sq ft. 1-1/2 story (plus basement). Home has large > air movement grates up to first and second floor for heat. > - Rental home – so reliable operation is valued > - Would like auto feed on pellet stove > - Low power draw is important as this is located in Vermont where the > sun doesn’t shine much in the winter. > > I have heard that Harman stoves are high quality but they are expensive > and owner doesn’t need the stove to look like it belongs in the living room. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > David Palumbo > > Hyde Park, Vermont > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Jun 21 16:32:36 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 16:32:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Message-ID: <53bb9b955c30e19bfe358ccd87883c0adc9476c1@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Has anyone had experience with the Sol-Ark company or their product line? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 22:37:01 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 22:37:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wood pellet stove for off grid In-Reply-To: References: <5b2bb88a.1c69fb81.119e9.626a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Dave, I have the Harmon Accentra which is the most expensive one they make. Got in in trade for a balance owed me by an off-grid client going back to burning wood. I think the Harmon burn chamber is the best design on the market and extremely reliable, even when cleaning is ignored. It tells you with an odd looking flame when it needs to be cleaned. Probably the lowest cost units from Harmon ( lighter weight materials and probably more noise are the cost saving reasons) would be a good choice. One recommendation: Leave enough space around the stove for maintenance, especially the front and back. I put mine close as possible in a corner and have to move the stove to access the combustion blower. It is so heavy that it is close to impossible to move with one person. I find that the power consumption is reasonable. I live off grid with 8 L16 batteries and the pellet stove is a significant draw but easily manageable. 75 watts running and 200 watts in ignition which usually only lasts a few minutes to 10 minutes depending on how clean the floor of the burn pot is. John Blittersdorf On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 1:49 PM, Bob Maynard wrote: > Hi David, > > I have heard positive things about Wiseway, non electric, gravity feed > pellet stove. Used to be made here in Oregon, now part of US Stove Company > and I think available through Home Depot. > http://www.usstove.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=3466 > > Best Regards, > Bob Maynard > > On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 7:39 AM, David Palumbo > wrote: > >> Wrenchsters, >> >> >> >> I am looking for advice on selecting the right wood pellet stove for an >> off grid house that will not be using regular firewood any longer. >> >> - It will be in the basement so the appearance doesn’t matter. >> - The home also has non electric LP gas heat. Looking for a secondary >> source for security and to guard against gas price increase. >> - The home is 1,000 sq ft. 1-1/2 story (plus basement). Home has >> large air movement grates up to first and second floor for heat. >> - Rental home – so reliable operation is valued >> - Would like auto feed on pellet stove >> - Low power draw is important as this is located in Vermont where the >> sun doesn’t shine much in the winter. >> >> I have heard that Harman stoves are high quality but they are expensive >> and owner doesn’t need the stove to look like it belongs in the living room. >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> David Palumbo >> >> Hyde Park, Vermont >> >> >> >> Sent from Mail for >> Windows 10 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ptalmage at yahoo.com Sun Jun 24 19:30:25 2018 From: ptalmage at yahoo.com (Peter Talmage) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 23:30:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solectria inverter needed References: <1986180501.1623971.1529883025347.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1986180501.1623971.1529883025347@mail.yahoo.com> A close friend needs a Solectria PVI-2500 inverter to replace one that just got fried yesterday by lightning. If you have one lying around in old inventory or know someone that might please contact me. Thanks, Peter Talmage -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Jun 26 19:06:32 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 16:06:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low output In-Reply-To: <896041ba-3dbe-a9ef-ec7c-d28c697c330e@psln.com> References: <1DFC67B8-0D63-4B7D-BD94-0931F498A984@gmail.com> <896041ba-3dbe-a9ef-ec7c-d28c697c330e@psln.com> Message-ID: OK Campers, this long  and short of the "low output" with this CC...... installer error.  The battery and PV negatives were separate in the wiring section of the Kid, but were tied together at a bus bar in the DC enclosure.  I pulled the PV neg off the common neg bus, spliced it to the separate neg to the PV neg landing in the CC and there it was, full output.             I've managed to find egg on my face for other issues on the list, I really appreciate the help. Bill Feather River Solar Electric On 6/19/2018 9:52 PM, frenergy wrote: > Off-gridders, > >             Small 24 volt off-grid install.....new installation, 3, > 285 watt PVs in series, 4, L-16's in series, Midnight "Kid" CC.  > Problem: I cannot get more than about 200 watts (8-9 amps battery > side) out of the Kid display in full noon sun, clean PVs. Should be > 700 watts plus and about 28 amps.  Bulk/Absorb set at 29V, battery > voltage at ~25 V (pulled down with a heat gun).  I changed that Kid > out for another new one> Same issue!  I disconnected the PV wires > where they land in the Kid and got 9.3 amps short circuit, 105 volts > oc  Called Midnight tech support but we couldn't come up with a good > solution.  Ideas? > > Thx, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Tue Jun 26 19:48:31 2018 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 19:48:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low output In-Reply-To: References: <1DFC67B8-0D63-4B7D-BD94-0931F498A984@gmail.com> <896041ba-3dbe-a9ef-ec7c-d28c697c330e@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill, Thanks for updating us on this issue. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Jun 26, 2018, at 7:06 PM, Bill Battagin wrote: > > OK Campers, this long and short of the "low output" with this CC...... installer error. The battery and PV negatives were separate in the wiring section of the Kid, but were tied together at a bus bar in the DC enclosure. I pulled the PV neg off the common neg bus, spliced it to the separate neg to the PV neg landing in the CC and there it was, full output. > > I've managed to find egg on my face for other issues on the list, I really appreciate the help. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > >> On 6/19/2018 9:52 PM, frenergy wrote: >> Off-gridders, >> >> Small 24 volt off-grid install.....new installation, 3, 285 watt PVs in series, 4, L-16's in series, Midnight "Kid" CC. Problem: I cannot get more than about 200 watts (8-9 amps battery side) out of the Kid display in full noon sun, clean PVs. Should be 700 watts plus and about 28 amps. Bulk/Absorb set at 29V, battery voltage at ~25 V (pulled down with a heat gun). I changed that Kid out for another new one> Same issue! I disconnected the PV wires where they land in the Kid and got 9.3 amps short circuit, 105 volts oc Called Midnight tech support but we couldn't come up with a good solution. Ideas? >> >> Thx, >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ken at commonwealthsolar.com Tue Jun 26 20:17:08 2018 From: Ken at commonwealthsolar.com (Ken Schaal) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 20:17:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Low output In-Reply-To: References: <1DFC67B8-0D63-4B7D-BD94-0931F498A984@gmail.com> <896041ba-3dbe-a9ef-ec7c-d28c697c330e@psln.com> Message-ID: One of the more valuable aspects of this list..learning from.our mistakes. Only some can ' man up' Thanks Ken Schaal On Jun 26, 2018 7:48 PM, "Rick Brown" wrote: > Bill, > > Thanks for updating us on this issue. > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > On Jun 26, 2018, at 7:06 PM, Bill Battagin wrote: > > OK Campers, this long and short of the "low output" with this CC...... > installer error. The battery and PV negatives were separate in the wiring > section of the Kid, but were tied together at a bus bar in the DC > enclosure. I pulled the PV neg off the common neg bus, spliced it to the > separate neg to the PV neg landing in the CC and there it was, full output. > > I've managed to find egg on my face for other issues on the > list, I really appreciate the help. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > > On 6/19/2018 9:52 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Off-gridders, > > > Small 24 volt off-grid install.....new installation, 3, 285 > watt PVs in series, 4, L-16's in series, Midnight "Kid" CC. Problem: I > cannot get more than about 200 watts (8-9 amps battery side) out of the Kid > display in full noon sun, clean PVs. Should be 700 watts plus and about 28 > amps. Bulk/Absorb set at 29V, battery voltage at ~25 V (pulled down with a > heat gun). I changed that Kid out for another new one> Same issue! I > disconnected the PV wires where they land in the Kid and got 9.3 amps short > circuit, 105 volts oc Called Midnight tech support but we couldn't come up > with a good solution. Ideas? > > > Thx, > > > Bill > > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, Owner > > 4291 Nelson St. > > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > > 530.284.7849 > > CA Lic 874049 > > www.frenergy.net > > > > --- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 23:04:37 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 23:04:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW4548 Grid tie sell and charge wildly out of control Message-ID: Hello Group. I have a customer with an XW4548 grid tied with a Classic 200 CC, 16 Evergreen ES-A210's, 8 Interstate L16 Batteries, with generator backup. We have had issues with it not selling, selling and then charging at high rates way beyond the settings. This has been an ongoing problem for 6 years and currrently are 18 months into the 2nd battery pack and showing depleted battery life. Xantrex tech support says that the battery capacity is too small and we are not setting it up correctly. Before the first set of batteries had one battery explode, we had spent countless hours with their tech support trying to get this inverter to behave properly. Even when going through every setting with tech support, we never got it to work quite right. Setting to factory defaults did not work. Found that the default absorption time was 6 hours and the inverter battery charger was pushing up to 75 amps into this battery, then selling at about 40 to 60 amps DC and then immediately charging and then selling. I estimate this battery pack may have had thousands of massive charge and discharge cycles... good reason for the batteries to be weak now. After a few of these wild cycles, it would fault with DC overvoltage. It would eventually clear the fault and do this crazy cycle again. I programmed the inverter charger to the lowest setting of 10%, Lowered the battery capacity setting to 200 ah from 360, set the charge timer to not run during the hours we were there. None of these changes made any significant difference. We also set the maximum Sell amps AC down to 3 amps which should have kept it at about 720 watts but we were still seeing it sell up to 2500 watts. Before we reset that,, it was selling up to 4000 watts. Could it be a defective SCP. There is no internet there to allow us to see the past performance. Does anyone have a clue what is going on. I have worked with Outback Radians in this same configuration with no problems at all. I am about ready to rip it off the wall and replace it with a Radian. John Blittersdorf Rob Stubbins Electrical and Solar. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Jun 28 00:01:23 2018 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 04:01:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW4548 Grid tie sell and charge wildly out of control In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4d76bd538d05490190e89627e80c9394@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hi John, Sounds like a nightmare. I'd call hogwash on tech support saying too small battery bank, it is small but shouldn't cause XW to ignore settings. I don't suspect the SCP, it is just a display not a brain. A full list of programmed parameters is useful. - have you disconnected BTS and checked if behavior changed? - setting charger = off may stop this wild charging behaviour, force it to just sell surplus PV, but would need manual intervention to charge up from grid ie after an outage if this is setup for backup as well. I had something along this line some years ago, ignoring programming. Ended up doing a complete software delete and reload via XDT and complete total system reprogram and it started to behave properly. This is not the same as resetting to factory. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of John Blittersdorf Sent: June-27-18 8:05 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW4548 Grid tie sell and charge wildly out of control Hello Group. I have a customer with an XW4548 grid tied with a Classic 200 CC, 16 Evergreen ES-A210's, 8 Interstate L16 Batteries, with generator backup. We have had issues with it not selling, selling and then charging at high rates way beyond the settings. This has been an ongoing problem for 6 years and currrently are 18 months into the 2nd battery pack and showing depleted battery life. Xantrex tech support says that the battery capacity is too small and we are not setting it up correctly. Before the first set of batteries had one battery explode, we had spent countless hours with their tech support trying to get this inverter to behave properly. Even when going through every setting with tech support, we never got it to work quite right. Setting to factory defaults did not work. Found that the default absorption time was 6 hours and the inverter battery charger was pushing up to 75 amps into this battery, then selling at about 40 to 60 amps DC and then immediately charging and then selling. I estimate this battery pack may have had thousands of massive charge and discharge cycles... good reason for the batteries to be weak now. After a few of these wild cycles, it would fault with DC overvoltage. It would eventually clear the fault and do this crazy cycle again. I programmed the inverter charger to the lowest setting of 10%, Lowered the battery capacity setting to 200 ah from 360, set the charge timer to not run during the hours we were there. None of these changes made any significant difference. We also set the maximum Sell amps AC down to 3 amps which should have kept it at about 720 watts but we were still seeing it sell up to 2500 watts. Before we reset that,, it was selling up to 4000 watts. Could it be a defective SCP. There is no internet there to allow us to see the past performance. Does anyone have a clue what is going on. I have worked with Outback Radians in this same configuration with no problems at all. I am about ready to rip it off the wall and replace it with a Radian. John Blittersdorf Rob Stubbins Electrical and Solar. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Jun 28 07:22:08 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 07:22:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schuco panel warrantee Message-ID: <2F010C1D-724F-49A3-BEF9-ABE2D2DFA4A9@swnl.net> Wrenches I have a client that has a burnt spot on a Schuco MPE 235 PS-08 Module and I am in need of a contact for warrantee support. If you have said contact please forward that to me off list. Thanks in advance. TUMP > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jun 29 00:10:17 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 21:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW4548 Grid tie sell and charge wildly out of control In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Way too many issues when you mix equipment manufacturers. Do you want torture? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 Dave John BlittersdorfDave > Hello Group. > I have a customer with an XW4548 grid tied with a Classic 200 CC, 16 > Evergreen ES-A210's, > 8 Interstate L16 Batteries, with generator backup. We have had issues > with > it not selling, selling and then charging at high rates way beyond the > settings. This has been an ongoing problem for 6 years and currrently are > 18 months into the 2nd battery pack and showing depleted battery life. > Xantrex tech support says that the battery capacity is too small and we > are > not setting it up correctly. Before the first set of batteries had one > battery explode, we had spent countless hours with their tech support > trying to get this inverter to behave properly. Even when going through > every setting with tech support, we never got it to work quite right. > Setting to factory defaults did not work. Found that the default > absorption > time was 6 hours and the inverter battery charger was pushing up to 75 > amps > into this battery, then selling at about 40 to 60 amps DC and then > immediately charging and then selling. I estimate this battery pack may > have had thousands of massive charge and discharge cycles... good reason > for the batteries to be weak now. After a few of these wild cycles, it > would fault with DC overvoltage. It would eventually clear the fault and > do this crazy cycle again. I programmed the inverter charger to the > lowest > setting of 10%, Lowered the battery capacity setting to 200 ah from 360, > set the charge timer to not run during the hours we were there. None of > these changes made any significant difference. We also set the maximum > Sell amps AC down to 3 amps which should have kept it at about 720 watts > but we were still seeing it sell up to 2500 watts. Before we reset that,, > it was selling up to 4000 watts. > > Could it be a defective SCP. There is no internet there to allow us to see > the past performance. > > Does anyone have a clue what is going on. I have worked with Outback > Radians in this same configuration with no problems at all. I am about > ready to rip it off the wall and replace it with a Radian. > > John Blittersdorf > Rob Stubbins Electrical and Solar. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 10:27:46 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 07:27:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback warranty Message-ID: <7B081D85-1B61-4B6F-A812-AAC6B6021A91@gmail.com> Hi all I have 2 old mate 1’s, pre 4.0 firmware. I just noticed on a new FNDC paperwork, a statement from OB that states they will update any pre 4.0 firmware to latest rev. ( as the FNDC requires 4.0 or better. ) When I called OB and talked to tech support, they said no, they wont cover it. I’m asking if anyone has another avenue, or advice on how to proceed? OB charges a lot for the upgrading since Alpha took over, which makes it not worth doing. Thanks Jay Peltz power From vtsolar at icloud.com Wed Jun 27 16:20:03 2018 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 16:20:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] crumbling ballast blocks Message-ID: <018101d40e54$3c9b4f00$b5d1ed00$@icloud.com> All, I have a 6 year old ballasted roof system in which about 50% of the solid cap blocks(16"L x 8"w x 4"D) are cracked and crumbing, some are close to rubble. I assume it was a bad batch, but has anyone seen this before? What might be the preventive remedy in the future? A coating of some sort? Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 27th Anniversary 1991-2018 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Sat Jun 30 18:17:49 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 18:17:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] crumbling ballast blocks In-Reply-To: <018101d40e54$3c9b4f00$b5d1ed00$@icloud.com> References: <018101d40e54$3c9b4f00$b5d1ed00$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Kirk, Had the same thing happen to me on a commercial ballasted system installed back in 2004. Had to be moved around to allow installation of a new roof system. Replaced all the ballast in 2017. I'm located in Western NY, thus the same weather you see. The blocks were on a stainless steel pan of which the array was attached to. I've plenty of ideas as to why they broke down but no real evidence. I expect it to happen again. Does make me wonder about the new ballast systems that still call out for the blocks as ballast. Perhaps poly sand bags? Christopher On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 4:20 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > All, > > I have a 6 year old ballasted roof system in which about 50% of the solid > cap blocks(16”L x 8”w x 4”D) are cracked and crumbing, some are close to > rubble. I assume it was a bad batch, but has anyone seen this before? What > might be the preventive remedy in the future? A coating of some sort? > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 27th Anniversary 1991-2018* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sat Jun 30 18:29:40 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 18:29:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] crumbling ballast blocks In-Reply-To: References: <018101d40e54$3c9b4f00$b5d1ed00$@icloud.com> Message-ID: I am pretty sure it is the freeze-thaw cycle that the blocks are exposed to. I have inspected hundreds of system in the Northeast and this is a recurringproblem. It has to be part of the maintenance protocols or there will be insufficient weight to resist thewind uplift forces.  Chris On 6/30/2018 6:17 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > Kirk, > > Had the same thing happen to me on a commercial ballasted system > installed back in 2004. Had to be moved around to allow installation > of a new roof system. Replaced all the ballast in 2017. I'm located in > Western NY, thus the same weather you see. The blocks were on a > stainless steel pan of which the array was attached to. I've plenty of > ideas as to why they broke down but no real evidence. I expect it to > happen again. Does make me wonder about the new ballast systems that > still call out for the blocks as ballast. Perhaps poly sand bags? > > Christopher > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 4:20 PM, Kirk Herander > wrote: > > All, > > I have a 6 year old ballasted roof system in which about 50% of > the solid cap blocks(16”L x 8”w x 4”D) are cracked and crumbing, > some are close to rubble. I assume it was a bad batch, but has > anyone seen this before? What might be the preventive remedy in > the future? A coating of some sort? > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > */Celebrating our 27^th Anniversary 1991-2018/* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEP^TM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com / > > / > / > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Ken at commonwealthsolar.com Sat Jun 30 19:05:46 2018 From: Ken at commonwealthsolar.com (Ken Schaal) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 19:05:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] crumbling ballast blocks In-Reply-To: References: <018101d40e54$3c9b4f00$b5d1ed00$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Regular cement blocks absorb water, freeze thaw cycle destroys them. Paving blocks are made with silica fume, denser than cement,dont absorb water, don't suffer freeze thaw damage. They are designed for walkways and driveways. There are cement looking pavers , 12x12 x 2" ,also made with fume. Any block plant should be able to make balast blocks to the needed specs. Silica fume is a waste product of coal combustion ..ie cheap, but effective. Ken schaal On Jun 30, 2018 6:29 PM, "cwarfel" wrote: I am pretty sure it is the freeze-thaw cycle that the blocks are exposed to. I have inspected hundreds of system in the Northeast and this is a recurring problem. It has to be part of the maintenance protocols or there will be insufficient weight to resist the wind uplift forces. Chris On 6/30/2018 6:17 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: Kirk, Had the same thing happen to me on a commercial ballasted system installed back in 2004. Had to be moved around to allow installation of a new roof system. Replaced all the ballast in 2017. I'm located in Western NY, thus the same weather you see. The blocks were on a stainless steel pan of which the array was attached to. I've plenty of ideas as to why they broke down but no real evidence. I expect it to happen again. Does make me wonder about the new ballast systems that still call out for the blocks as ballast. Perhaps poly sand bags? Christopher On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 4:20 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > All, > > I have a 6 year old ballasted roof system in which about 50% of the solid > cap blocks(16”L x 8”w x 4”D) are cracked and crumbing, some are close to > rubble. I assume it was a bad batch, but has anyone seen this before? What > might be the preventive remedy in the future? A coating of some sort? > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 27th Anniversary 1991-2018* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 **www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401)466-8978 [image: EEI logo] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sat Jun 30 19:49:19 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 19:49:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] crumbling ballast blocks In-Reply-To: References: <018101d40e54$3c9b4f00$b5d1ed00$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <5d10c5f5-cf2c-c30f-0a5f-a82fa54c8122@entech-engineering.com> Back to the original post. A commercial system doesn't mean they used paving blocks.  I have seen many that did not. Fly ash is also a product of coal combustion that can be used to make a stronger concrete, though it won't necessarily help in this case, as it is lighter. On 6/30/2018 7:05 PM, Ken Schaal wrote: > Regular cement blocks absorb water, freeze thaw cycle destroys them. > > Paving blocks are made with silica fume, denser than cement,dont > absorb water, don't suffer freeze thaw damage. They are designed for >  walkways and driveways. > There are cement looking pavers , 12x12 x 2" ,also made with fume. > Any block plant should be able to make balast blocks to the needed > specs. Silica fume is a waste product of coal combustion > ..ie cheap, but effective. > Ken schaal > > On Jun 30, 2018 6:29 PM, "cwarfel" > wrote: > > I am pretty sure it is the freeze-thaw cycle that the blocks are > exposed to. I have inspected hundreds of system in the Northeast > and this is a recurringproblem. It has to be part of the > maintenance protocols or there will be insufficient weight to > resist thewind uplift forces.  Chris > > > On 6/30/2018 6:17 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: >> Kirk, >> >> Had the same thing happen to me on a commercial ballasted system >> installed back in 2004. Had to be moved around to allow >> installation of a new roof system. Replaced all the ballast in >> 2017. I'm located in Western NY, thus the same weather you see. >> The blocks were on a stainless steel pan of which the array was >> attached to. I've plenty of ideas as to why they broke down but >> no real evidence. I expect it to happen again. Does make me >> wonder about the new ballast systems that still call out for the >> blocks as ballast. Perhaps poly sand bags? >> >> Christopher >> >> On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 4:20 PM, Kirk Herander >> > wrote: >> >> All, >> >> I have a 6 year old ballasted roof system in which about 50% >> of the solid cap blocks(16”L x 8”w x 4”D) are cracked and >> crumbing, some are close to rubble. I assume it was a bad >> batch, but has anyone seen this before? What might be the >> preventive remedy in the future? A coating of some sort? >> >> *Kirk Herander* >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * >> >> */Celebrating our 27^th Anniversary 1991-2018/* >> >> *www.vermontsolarnow.com * >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> NABCEP^TM 2003 Inaugural Certificant >> >> VT RE Incentive Program Partner >> >> 802.863.1202 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ >> E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com / >> >> / >> / >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once >> said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from >> those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -- > >          Christopher Warfel, PE >        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                (401)466-8978 > > EEI logo > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jtrox23 at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 21:29:10 2018 From: jtrox23 at gmail.com (J Troxell) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 21:29:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW4548 Grid tie sell and charge wildly out of control Message-ID: > My two cents > > Some of the AC side problems On xantrax, schieder, ... systems I have come > across were resolved after finding the right combination of firmware > updates and/or full PCB swaps. If the SCP is relatively new compared to the > inverter then they may not be "talking" the same xanbus language which > could lead to "funny" translations of settings. I had a Conext 5548 that > would not take programming commands from a combox in a grid sell situation. > > There were some trace inverters that had serious ac board failures, and > even now I have found some Conext / Schieder 4024 inverters that decided to > see the input from a 120/240v generator as 110/208v input, which then > shutdown the system. In the end it was a firmware update that fixed the > issue. > > J Troxell > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: John Blittersdorf > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 23:04:37 -0400 > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW4548 Grid tie sell and charge wildly out > of control > Hello Group. > I have a customer with an XW4548 grid tied with a Classic 200 CC, 16 > Evergreen ES-A210's, > 8 Interstate L16 Batteries, with generator backup. We have had issues > with it not selling, selling and then charging at high rates way beyond the > settings. This has been an ongoing problem for 6 years and currrently are > 18 months into the 2nd battery pack and showing depleted battery life. > Xantrex tech support says that the battery capacity is too small and we are > not setting it up correctly. Before the first set of batteries had one > battery explode, we had spent countless hours with their tech support > trying to get this inverter to behave properly. Even when going through > every setting with tech support, we never got it to work quite right. > Setting to factory defaults did not work. Found that the default absorption > time was 6 hours and the inverter battery charger was pushing up to 75 amps > into this battery, then selling at about 40 to 60 amps DC and then > immediately charging and then selling. I estimate this battery pack may > have had thousands of massive charge and discharge cycles... good reason > for the batteries to be weak now. After a few of these wild cycles, it > would fault with DC overvoltage. It would eventually clear the fault and > do this crazy cycle again. I programmed the inverter charger to the lowest > setting of 10%, Lowered the battery capacity setting to 200 ah from 360, > set the charge timer to not run during the hours we were there. None of > these changes made any significant difference. We also set the maximum > Sell amps AC down to 3 amps which should have kept it at about 720 watts > but we were still seeing it sell up to 2500 watts. Before we reset that,, > it was selling up to 4000 watts. > > Could it be a defective SCP. There is no internet there to allow us to see > the past performance. > > Does anyone have a clue what is going on. I have worked with Outback > Radians in this same configuration with no problems at all. I am about > ready to rip it off the wall and replace it with a Radian. > > John Blittersdorf > Rob Stubbins Electrical and Solar. > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Kevin Pegg > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 04:01:23 +0000 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW4548 Grid tie sell and charge wildly > out of control > > Hi John, > > > > Sounds like a nightmare. I'd call hogwash on tech support saying too small > battery bank, it is small but shouldn't cause XW to ignore settings. I > don't suspect the SCP, it is just a display not a brain. > > > > A full list of programmed parameters is useful. > > > > - have you disconnected BTS and checked if behavior changed? > > - setting charger = off may stop this wild charging behaviour, force it to > just sell surplus PV, but would need manual intervention to charge up from > grid ie after an outage if this is setup for backup as well. > > > > I had something along this line some years ago, ignoring programming. > Ended up doing a complete software delete and reload via XDT and complete > total system reprogram and it started to behave properly. This is not the > same as resetting to factory. > > > > Kevin > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Sat Jun 30 15:19:15 2018 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 15:19:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] crumbling ballast blocks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5153C56A-B8CF-490A-B669-CC521841D8F5@icloud.com> Thanks. FYI - I’ve since found this on the Ironridge site: http://files.ironridge.com/ballastedmounting/IronRidge_BallastedRoofMount_ballastSupplierList.pdf Recommendation is 3000 psi min, And be freeze/thaw resistant. Kirk Herander > On Jun 30, 2018, at 10:10 AM, "glenn.burt at glbcc.com" wrote: > > I inspected a number of school rooftop systems for the state of NY about 6 years ago. Many had ballast blocks that were little more than dirt piles. > Most blocks that you can pick up at big box stores are inadequate for this duty, and Sunpower recognized this about 10 years ago when they published a specification for blocks used with their systems. > I'd have to dig through my archives to locate it, and am on my phone now, so dont have it handy, but seem to remember a high psi mix being required. > > So yes, I have seen it before, and have insured any system we installed used blocks with a similar standard. We rarely do that kind of job anymore, so dont have the info quick at hand. > > Glenn > > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Kirk Herander > Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2018 9:10 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org; > Cc: > Subject:[RE-wrenches] crumbling ballast blocks > > All, > > I have a 6 year old ballasted roof system in which about 50% of the solid cap blocks(16”L x 8”w x 4”D) are cracked and crumbing, some are close to rubble. I assume it was a bad batch, but has anyone seen this before? What might be the preventive remedy in the future? A coating of some sort? > > > > Kirk Herander > > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > > Celebrating our 27th Anniversary 1991-2018 > > www.vermontsolarnow.com > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 20:02:07 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 14:02:07 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] crumbling ballast blocks In-Reply-To: <018101d40e54$3c9b4f00$b5d1ed00$@icloud.com> References: <018101d40e54$3c9b4f00$b5d1ed00$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Kirt, Chris, Wrenches We have not had any issues other then one or two in Hawaii or California, it might be the location, concrete blocks sitting in the weather all exposed to rain from on all sides and then potential freezing conditions will cause failure of the blocks, the same issue pools will get if there are tiles around the edge when they pop off in freezing conditions but thats just me> Jerry NABCEP Installer and PVI On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > All, > > I have a 6 year old ballasted roof system in which about 50% of the solid > cap blocks(16”L x 8”w x 4”D) are cracked and crumbing, some are close to > rubble. I assume it was a bad batch, but has anyone seen this before? What > might be the preventive remedy in the future? A coating of some sort? > > > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > *Celebrating our 27th Anniversary 1991-2018* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Jul 2 13:08:16 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 13:08:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] crumbling ballast blocks In-Reply-To: References: <018101d40e54$3c9b4f00$b5d1ed00$@icloud.com> Message-ID: Iam not trying to prolong this thread,but I do want to say that there should be an inspectionof the blocks in freeze/thaw areas. We started an inspection program of our systems or systems in the area and although we don't install ballasted systems, we found enough other things to address. On my own 8 year old system zip tie failure was over 50%. It opened my eyes to the need to do these inspections, and spec better materials at the start. I remember the survey in Wisconsin regarding the inspecting of fairly old solar thermal systems. All the participants really seemed to love their systems, but I think over 3/4 of them were not working. On 7/1/2018 8:02 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Kirt, Chris, Wrenches > We have not had any issues other then one or two in Hawaii or > California, it might be the location, concrete blocks sitting in the > weather all exposed to rain from on all sides and then potential > freezing conditions will cause failure of the blocks, the same issue > pools will get if there are tiles around the edge when they pop off in > freezing conditions but thats just me> > Jerry > NABCEP Installer and PVI > > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Kirk Herander > wrote: > > All, > > I have a 6 year old ballasted roof system in which about 50% of > the solid cap blocks(16”L x 8”w x 4”D) are cracked and crumbing, > some are close to rubble. I assume it was a bad batch, but has > anyone seen this before? What might be the preventive remedy in > the future? A coating of some sort? > > *Kirk Herander* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC * > > */Celebrating our 27^th Anniversary 1991-2018/* > > *www.vermontsolarnow.com * > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > NABCEP^TM 2003 Inaugural Certificant > > VT RE Incentive Program Partner > > 802.863.1202 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 3 15:21:37 2018 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 15:21:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs In-Reply-To: <01d901d40732$0aadf980$2009ec80$@glbcc.com> References: <20180618104156.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.dc3a1e6439.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> <01d901d40732$0aadf980$2009ec80$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Local AHJs here have sometimes required/accepted a single listed lug on a single pan. How you seal that effectively and permanently is a mystery to me, but what's more of a mystery is the sensibility of the conclusions they reach. Unless every pan, cap, and flashing within reach of an energized conductor is bonded using a listed lug, how would this work effectively? S-5 clamps or other attachment fasteners are probably just as effective at creating a bonding path as and roof pan fastener, but definitely can't be relied upon from a code/listing perspective. Maybe we need to encourage metal roofing manufacturers to get 2703 listing (haha - right). Side note: I don't see AHJ's worrying about overhead service conductors potentially energizing a metal roof. I've seen some pretty shaky rusted out weatherhead pipes and downed poles in storms with overhead conductors laying on roofs. Jason Szumlanski On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 3:32 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > NEC 250.4(A)4 Also states that normally non-current-carrying electrically > conductive materials that are likely to become energized shall be connected > together and to the electrical supply source in a manner that establishes > an effective ground-fault current path. > > > > So the logic goes if an array develops a ground fault, and the faulted > conductor contacts a metal roof surface, there is a possibility that the > roof may become energized. So for many reasons, bond the roof to ground. > > > > -Glenn > > Renewable Energy Engineer – Cadmus > > Principal Engineer – Power Guru > > Principal – glb, Consulting Company > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *bruce at willpowerelect.com > *Sent:* Monday, June 18, 2018 1:42 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches ; AE Solar < > autonomousenergies at gmail.com> > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs > > > > NEC 690.47 (A) requires the array to be grounded, not necessarily the > roof. If you have bonded the rails and modules and your grounding conductor > goes back to the service you should be good. 690.47 (B) allows installation > of an auxiliary grounding electrode (ground rod or building steel). Not a > bad idea in lightning prone areas. ;) Local AHJ may have different opinions. > > > > Bruce Fiero-RMI > > > > > > *"Energizing the Rogue Valley"* > > > > *4115 S Pacific Hwy* > > *Medford, OR 97501* > > > > *P:* 541.535.3965 > *F:* 541.512.0061 > *E:* bruce at willpowerelect.com > *W:* Willpower Electric, LLC > > > > *CCB **191852* > *Oregon Electrical Contractor **C681* > *NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer **031409-38* > > *DUNS* *191470363* > > *Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally **Solar (PV) Installation & Energy > Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs * > > > > > ***This email may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or > otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the > addressee, or if it appears that you have received this email in error, > please advise me immediately by reply email, keep the contents > confidential, and immediately delete the message and any attachments from > your system. * > > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs > From: "glenn.burt at glbcc.com" > Date: Sun, June 17, 2018 6:17 pm > To: AE Solar > Cc: RE-wrenches > > Depends on the seam profile. Same device may be used in many cases. We > have Also drilled and used the standard direct burial lugs on the underside > of the pans, at the wave when they hang over enough to get working space. > Then a horizontal run of copper wire to connect. > > > > Don't be lulled into thinking that S-5 clamps are listed for grounding > roof pans - they are not. They are only listed for module bonding to ground. > > > > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. > > > > ------ Original message------ > > *From: *AE Solar > > *Date: *Sun, Jun 17, 2018 8:46 PM > > *To: glenn.burt at glbcc.com ;* > > *Cc: RE-wrenches;* > > *Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs* > > > > *thanks glenn. and what about commercial? anyone have code references > regarding grounding when doing solar on metal roofs? i thought a few years > back there was a conversation on this but i can't seem to find it.* > > > > > *Adam KatzmanAutonomous EnergiesPO Box 1245* > > > > *Kingston, NY 12402www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 <(518)%20567-1468>* > > > > *On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:46 PM, glenn.burt at glbcc.com > > wrote:* > > *We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for > residential systems.* > > > > *-Glenn* > > > > *Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone* > > > > *------ Original message------* > > *From: AE Solar* > > *Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PM* > > *To: RE-wrenches;* > > *Cc: * > > *Subject:[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs* > > > > *wrenchers,* > > *what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? thanks* > > *adam* > > > > > *Adam KatzmanAutonomous EnergiesPO Box 1245* > > > > *Kingston, NY 12402www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 <(518)%20567-1468>* > > > *------------------------------* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *_______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood > AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Change listserver email address & > settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > List > rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > Check out or update participant > bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4536 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 3 15:45:03 2018 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 15:45:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microinverter Fault Trips Branch Circuit Breaker Message-ID: This is not a knock on microinverters, but information to potentially help save the next guy a bunch of time... This is not specific to any brand, but for purposes of explaining I will mention it was an Enphase IQ6+ system. One of the great advantages of microinverters, even over optimizers, in my mind is how when a single unit fails the rest of the string just keeps on running. I recently ran into a tripping breaker. My first diagnostic step was to swap the string with another string's breaker to eliminate the breaker itself as a source of the problem. That wasn't it. It just popped the other breaker. So I probably had a dreaded wiring fault. Knowing that pulling wires out of this particular conduit would be a nightmare, I hoped to disconnect the string at the j-box on the roof and crossed my fingers that the problem wasn't in the pipe. I was delighted to find out that there was no fault in the home run wiring, so I suspected the trunk cable. To check that I tested continuity line to line and line to ground. Nothing. Next stop was the string terminator just to double check because I have seen intermittent faults from a poorly installed terminator. It looked great. I checked the waterproof caps on a couple of unused drops. Looked good. I carefully inspected for any cuts and scuffs in the cable. No luck. But I was convinced it was a trunk cable issue. I was just about to cut the trunk cable in half to isolate the issue to one half of the trunk cable when I decided to just try turning on the breaker once more. Pop, sizzle, boom, smoke. Found the problem. It was a microinverter with an internal fault. Fortunately, it tripped the breaker and damage was isolated to that unit, which was swapped out and everything was fine. Problem solved. It got me thinking about my approach to diagnosing this issue. I think next time I will start with disconnecting the string in the junction box just like I did this time, then test and reconnect it. My next step will be to disconnect every micro in the string from the trunk cable and test again by turning on the breaker. Then if it's not the trunk cable or home run wiring I can narrow down the offending microinverter by plugging in subsets of the string. I just got lucky because it finally failed catastrophically when I had the modules off. The owner had reset the breaker several times before and the system ran for hours or days without issue. There must have been an intermittent AC fault within the bad micro that finally just manifest itself in a more demonstrative way. So a single point of failure can result in taking down a whole string. That's the first time I've had that happen other than a straight-up wiring fault. Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 16:25:30 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 10:25:30 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] O & M Message-ID: Wrenches I am looking to see who might be interested in a O & M service contract near San Jose Ca. Please contact me off line 707 888 2701 Jerry Shafer NABCEP PV, PV Inspector -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 16:32:59 2018 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:32:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sanyo HIP-200 Modules Message-ID: Anyone have a lead on 2-4 Sanyo HIP BA3 Mods? Thanks, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 16:44:16 2018 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 13:44:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microinverter Fault Trips Branch Circuit Breaker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <86B5923E-DD13-471A-9C4C-5B695CC4056A@gmail.com> I’ve had this happen many times with Enphase micro inverters. I’ve actually had them burn the back of a PV module. The cause was an internal short circuit which tripped the strings circuit breaker, when I cycled the breaker and turned it back on...... instant trip. I would put someone up on the roof to visually and audibly confirm which micro inverter was causing the short, it was typically very obvious to the naked eye. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Jul 3, 2018, at 12:45 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > > This is not a knock on microinverters, but information to potentially help save the next guy a bunch of time... This is not specific to any brand, but for purposes of explaining I will mention it was an Enphase IQ6+ system. > > One of the great advantages of microinverters, even over optimizers, in my mind is how when a single unit fails the rest of the string just keeps on running. I recently ran into a tripping breaker. My first diagnostic step was to swap the string with another string's breaker to eliminate the breaker itself as a source of the problem. That wasn't it. It just popped the other breaker. So I probably had a dreaded wiring fault. Knowing that pulling wires out of this particular conduit would be a nightmare, I hoped to disconnect the string at the j-box on the roof and crossed my fingers that the problem wasn't in the pipe. I was delighted to find out that there was no fault in the home run wiring, so I suspected the trunk cable. To check that I tested continuity line to line and line to ground. Nothing. Next stop was the string terminator just to double check because I have seen intermittent faults from a poorly installed terminator. It looked great. I checked the waterproof caps on a couple of unused drops. Looked good. I carefully inspected for any cuts and scuffs in the cable. No luck. But I was convinced it was a trunk cable issue. I was just about to cut the trunk cable in half to isolate the issue to one half of the trunk cable when I decided to just try turning on the breaker once more. > > Pop, sizzle, boom, smoke. Found the problem. It was a microinverter with an internal fault. Fortunately, it tripped the breaker and damage was isolated to that unit, which was swapped out and everything was fine. Problem solved. > > It got me thinking about my approach to diagnosing this issue. I think next time I will start with disconnecting the string in the junction box just like I did this time, then test and reconnect it. My next step will be to disconnect every micro in the string from the trunk cable and test again by turning on the breaker. Then if it's not the trunk cable or home run wiring I can narrow down the offending microinverter by plugging in subsets of the string. I just got lucky because it finally failed catastrophically when I had the modules off. The owner had reset the breaker several times before and the system ran for hours or days without issue. There must have been an intermittent AC fault within the bad micro that finally just manifest itself in a more demonstrative way. > > So a single point of failure can result in taking down a whole string. That's the first time I've had that happen other than a straight-up wiring fault. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jul 3 17:51:52 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:51:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs In-Reply-To: <01d901d40732$0aadf980$2009ec80$@glbcc.com> References: <20180618104156.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.dc3a1e6439.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> <01d901d40732$0aadf980$2009ec80$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Wrenches: I think the trick is to remove the roofing from the category of “likely to become energized.” If your wire management is such that there is no way that any PV wire can come into contact with the metal roofing, then you are not obligated under 250.4(A)4 to bond. How one accomplishes this relies on one’s own ingenuity, seeing as how the industry is way behind on developing wire management hardware. I do not believe ties and clips are adequate. Instead some form of raceway is required. We love Snap-n-rack racking because the channel is deep enough to accept PV wire and Gen4 MC connectors and has snap-on covers available. The racking is your raceway and contains PV wire absolutely. You of course need to bond the racking and module frames, all of which is accomplished using the SnR hardware. We mount transition boxes near enough to the end of a string that the factory module wire connects directly to the box without extensions required. We order MC connectors as bulkhead mounts and then drill and tap Schedule 80 plugs to accept the MC connector threads. If you invite an inspector to look under your array and nary a hint of PV wire can be seen, you can make the case that the roofing is not likely to become energized. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt *Sent:* Monday, June 18, 2018 11:28 AM *To:* 'RE-wrenches'; 'AE Solar' *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs NEC 250.4(A)4 Also states that normally non-current-carrying electrically conductive materials that are likely to become energized shall be connected together and to the electrical supply source in a manner that establishes an effective ground-fault current path. So the logic goes if an array develops a ground fault, and the faulted conductor contacts a metal roof surface, there is a possibility that the roof may become energized. So for many reasons, bond the roof to ground. -Glenn Renewable Energy Engineer – Cadmus Principal Engineer – Power Guru Principal – glb, Consulting Company *From:* RE-wrenches *On Behalf Of *bruce at willpowerelect.com *Sent:* Monday, June 18, 2018 1:42 PM *To:* RE-wrenches ; AE Solar < autonomousenergies at gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs NEC 690.47 (A) requires the array to be grounded, not necessarily the roof. If you have bonded the rails and modules and your grounding conductor goes back to the service you should be good. 690.47 (B) allows installation of an auxiliary grounding electrode (ground rod or building steel). Not a bad idea in lightning prone areas. ;) Local AHJ may have different opinions. Bruce Fiero-RMI *"Energizing the Rogue Valley"* *4115 S Pacific Hwy* *Medford, OR 97501* *P:* 541.535.3965 *F:* 541.512.0061 *E:* bruce at willpowerelect.com *W:* Willpower Electric, LLC *CCB **191852* *Oregon Electrical Contractor **C681* *NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer **031409-38* *DUNS* *191470363* *Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally **Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs * ***This email may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or if it appears that you have received this email in error, please advise me immediately by reply email, keep the contents confidential, and immediately delete the message and any attachments from your system. * -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs From: "glenn.burt at glbcc.com" Date: Sun, June 17, 2018 6:17 pm To: AE Solar Cc: RE-wrenches Depends on the seam profile. Same device may be used in many cases. We have Also drilled and used the standard direct burial lugs on the underside of the pans, at the wave when they hang over enough to get working space. Then a horizontal run of copper wire to connect. Don't be lulled into thinking that S-5 clamps are listed for grounding roof pans - they are not. They are only listed for module bonding to ground. Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------ *From: *AE Solar *Date: *Sun, Jun 17, 2018 8:46 PM *To: glenn.burt at glbcc.com ;* *Cc: RE-wrenches;* *Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs* *thanks glenn. and what about commercial? anyone have code references regarding grounding when doing solar on metal roofs? i thought a few years back there was a conversation on this but i can't seem to find it.* *Adam KatzmanAutonomous EnergiesPO Box 1245* *Kingston, NY 12402www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 <(518)%20567-1468>* *On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:46 PM, glenn.burt at glbcc.com > wrote:* *We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for residential systems.* *-Glenn* *Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone* *------ Original message------* *From: AE Solar* *Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PM* *To: RE-wrenches;* *Cc: * *Subject:[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs* *wrenchers,* *what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? thanks* *adam* *Adam KatzmanAutonomous EnergiesPO Box 1245* *Kingston, NY 12402www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 <(518)%20567-1468>* *------------------------------* *_______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4536 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 5 09:52:38 2018 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 09:52:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microinverter Fault Trips Branch Circuit Breaker In-Reply-To: <86B5923E-DD13-471A-9C4C-5B695CC4056A@gmail.com> References: <86B5923E-DD13-471A-9C4C-5B695CC4056A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hmmmm. I wonder why I'm just learning this now with thousands of micros in the wild. I did have a burned up M190 once, but that was very obvious visually and since it was not really a trunk cable situation the diagnostic steps are different. On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:06 PM MDElectricSolar wrote: > I’ve had this happen many times with Enphase micro inverters. I’ve > actually had them burn the back of a PV module. The cause was an internal > short circuit which tripped the strings circuit breaker, when I cycled the > breaker and turned it back on...... instant trip. I would put someone up on > the roof to visually and audibly confirm which micro inverter was causing > the short, it was typically very obvious to the naked eye. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On Jul 3, 2018, at 12:45 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > This is not a knock on microinverters, but information to potentially help > save the next guy a bunch of time... This is not specific to any brand, but > for purposes of explaining I will mention it was an Enphase IQ6+ system. > > One of the great advantages of microinverters, even over optimizers, in my > mind is how when a single unit fails the rest of the string just keeps on > running. I recently ran into a tripping breaker. My first diagnostic step > was to swap the string with another string's breaker to eliminate the > breaker itself as a source of the problem. That wasn't it. It just popped > the other breaker. So I probably had a dreaded wiring fault. Knowing that > pulling wires out of this particular conduit would be a nightmare, I hoped > to disconnect the string at the j-box on the roof and crossed my fingers > that the problem wasn't in the pipe. I was delighted to find out that there > was no fault in the home run wiring, so I suspected the trunk cable. To > check that I tested continuity line to line and line to ground. Nothing. > Next stop was the string terminator just to double check because I have > seen intermittent faults from a poorly installed terminator. It looked > great. I checked the waterproof caps on a couple of unused drops. Looked > good. I carefully inspected for any cuts and scuffs in the cable. No luck. > But I was convinced it was a trunk cable issue. I was just about to cut the > trunk cable in half to isolate the issue to one half of the trunk cable > when I decided to just try turning on the breaker once more. > > Pop, sizzle, boom, smoke. Found the problem. It was a microinverter with > an internal fault. Fortunately, it tripped the breaker and damage was > isolated to that unit, which was swapped out and everything was fine. > Problem solved. > > It got me thinking about my approach to diagnosing this issue. I think > next time I will start with disconnecting the string in the junction box > just like I did this time, then test and reconnect it. My next step will be > to disconnect every micro in the string from the trunk cable and test again > by turning on the breaker. Then if it's not the trunk cable or home run > wiring I can narrow down the offending microinverter by plugging in subsets > of the string. I just got lucky because it finally failed catastrophically > when I had the modules off. The owner had reset the breaker several times > before and the system ran for hours or days without issue. There must have > been an intermittent AC fault within the bad micro that finally just > manifest itself in a more demonstrative way. > > So a single point of failure can result in taking down a whole string. > That's the first time I've had that happen other than a straight-up wiring > fault. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Jul 6 11:55:56 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 11:55:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option? Message-ID: <501d388f-6b19-23c8-9730-4e553b32b219@entech-engineering.com> I am wondering about the experience installers have with a DC coupled multimode system design that will comply after January 1 with what I feel is the biggest mistake/poorly guided part of NEC 2017 690, and that is 690.12. We are installing two Outback systems with the remote controlled combiner and even that won't comply after January 1 unless we parallel more subarrays (There's safety for you, lower voltage-higher amperage!). Thanks for any insight. Chris --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Jul 6 13:32:25 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 11:32:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option? In-Reply-To: <501d388f-6b19-23c8-9730-4e553b32b219@entech-engineering.com> References: <501d388f-6b19-23c8-9730-4e553b32b219@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Midnite has some string level and module level 690.12 disconnects that wire in like an optimizer or micro inverter, so those should be able to meet the 2019 requirements.  However beware:  they as of yet still don't have a reasonable disconnect system to disconnect the charge controller which has capacitors that back feed the PV line for up to 90 seconds.  They have a DC GFI breaker with remote trip capability but it takes 4 spaces, so with multiple charge controllers it turns into a wiring mess really fast. I actually wired in some 60 amp rated diodes on one system to get it to pass inspection; what a joke, going back to 1980s equipment to pass 2017 code.    690.12 is an absolute nightmare for small off grid.  There really should be some exemptions for small arrays (under 3 kW) and under 100 vdc.  Fire fighters are not going to get there till the structure is down anyway,  Response times are up to an hour for remote locations with volunteer fire departments.  Its not like in town at all;  no one is going to go on the roof on an off grid fire. On the flip side, there are real dangers created by nuisance tripping of 690.12 equipment.  Again, on grid it's a mere inconvenience, but off grid it could mean spoiled food, frozen water lines, shut down heating systems in subzero temperatures, and for the elderly: loss of their breathing machines.  I've already had a 74 year old customer climbing on their roof multiple times to reset the Rapid shutdown equipment after nuisance trips. Are we going to wait until we get someone killed in the name of "Safety" before we fix this? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote: > > I am wondering about the experience installers have with a DC coupled > multimode system design that will comply after January 1 with what I > feel is the biggest mistake/poorly guided part of NEC 2017 690, and > that is 690.12. We are installing two Outback systems with the remote > controlled combiner and even that won't comply after January 1 unless > we parallel more subarrays (There's safety for you, lower > voltage-higher amperage!). Thanks for any insight. > > Chris > > > > > -- > >          Christopher Warfel, PE >        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                (401)466-8978 > > EEI logo > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Jul 6 14:11:55 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 14:11:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option? In-Reply-To: References: <501d388f-6b19-23c8-9730-4e553b32b219@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <134ec283-77cf-68a0-33cf-e020957554a5@entech-engineering.com> Thanks Ray, I am sure the moderator will let me know if this is off topic, but I would be willing to help organize a petition drive to repeal this part of the NEC and because there are good reasons. Not because it's "inconvenient". Long time manufacturers, who historically produced safe and high quality product(s) are being harmed by this language, which in turn, benefited others.  Safety is not necessarily increased.  I feel CMP 4 got hijacked focusing on this issue.  There has been good reorganization and integration of 690 with other Articles, but RS is not reflective of this effort. Just the labeling requirements show that. There is a lot of focus on resiliency and the NEC increased the cost and didnot improvethe safety of DC coupled multimode systems.  So instead of incorporating the roof resource that could be used to meet resiliency goals, we are taking roofs out of some design considerations, and increasing the costs for the other options. Chris On 7/6/2018 1:32 PM, Ray wrote: > > Midnite has some string level and module level 690.12 disconnects that > wire in like an optimizer or micro inverter, so those should be able > to meet the 2019 requirements.  However beware:  they as of yet still > don't have a reasonable disconnect system to disconnect the charge > controller which has capacitors that back feed the PV line for up to > 90 seconds.  They have a DC GFI breaker with remote trip capability > but it takes 4 spaces, so with multiple charge controllers it turns > into a wiring mess really fast. > > I actually wired in some 60 amp rated diodes on one system to get it > to pass inspection; what a joke, going back to 1980s equipment to pass > 2017 code.    690.12 is an absolute nightmare for small off grid.  > There really should be some exemptions for small arrays (under 3 kW) > and under 100 vdc.  Fire fighters are not going to get there till the > structure is down anyway, Response times are up to an hour for remote > locations with volunteer fire departments.  Its not like in town at > all;  no one is going to go on the roof on an off grid fire. > > On the flip side, there are real dangers created by nuisance tripping > of 690.12 equipment.  Again, on grid it's a mere inconvenience, but > off grid it could mean spoiled food, frozen water lines, shut down > heating systems in subzero temperatures, and for the elderly: loss of > their breathing machines.  I've already had a 74 year old customer > climbing on their roof multiple times to reset the Rapid shutdown > equipment after nuisance trips.  Are we going to wait until we get > someone killed in the name of "Safety" before we fix this? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote: >> >> I am wondering about the experience installers have with a DC coupled >> multimode system design that will comply after January 1 with what I >> feel is the biggest mistake/poorly guided part of NEC 2017 690, and >> that is 690.12. We are installing two Outback systems with the remote >> controlled combiner and even that won't comply after January 1 unless >> we parallel more subarrays (There's safety for you, lower >> voltage-higher amperage!). Thanks for any insight. >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >>          Christopher Warfel, PE >>        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>                (401)466-8978 >> >> EEI logo >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jul 6 13:49:35 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option? In-Reply-To: References: <501d388f-6b19-23c8-9730-4e553b32b219@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Thankfully Ray zero of the 150 + of Offgrid homes I have done have their array on a roof, are inspected, or would the owner ever want more than an outdoor shut-down of the system. The few that have had inspections, the inspector does not worry about this as the array is not on the roof. In my opinion there should be nothing that shuts down and offgrid battery inverter other than a dead battery or overcurrent/disco protection. I feel for you guys! Crazy people everywhere:( In 3 wildfires near my home there has never been an engine until it past the next day. They know they can stay here in the garage where it is cool, no smoke, and power 24/7. Schneider does build the GFCI into the CC and I have had them shut down an XW with close in lightning which is a plus. Yes on fixing this! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Midnite has some string level and module level 690.12 disconnects that > wire in like an optimizer or micro inverter, so those should be able to > meet the 2019 requirements.  However beware:  they as of yet still don't > have a reasonable disconnect system to disconnect the charge controller > which has capacitors that back feed the PV line for up to 90 seconds.  > They have a DC GFI breaker with remote trip capability but it takes 4 > spaces, so with multiple charge controllers it turns into a wiring mess > really fast. > > I actually wired in some 60 amp rated diodes on one system to get it to > pass inspection; what a joke, going back to 1980s equipment to pass 2017 > code.    690.12 is an absolute nightmare for small off grid.  There > really should be some exemptions for small arrays (under 3 kW) and under > 100 vdc.  Fire fighters are not going to get there till the structure is > down anyway,  Response times are up to an hour for remote locations with > volunteer fire departments.  Its not like in town at all;  no one is > going to go on the roof on an off grid fire. > > On the flip side, there are real dangers created by nuisance tripping of > 690.12 equipment.  Again, on grid it's a mere inconvenience, but off > grid it could mean spoiled food, frozen water lines, shut down heating > systems in subzero temperatures, and for the elderly: loss of their > breathing machines.  I've already had a 74 year old customer climbing on > their roof multiple times to reset the Rapid shutdown equipment after > nuisance trips. Are we going to wait until we get someone killed in the > name of "Safety" before we fix this? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote: >> >> I am wondering about the experience installers have with a DC coupled >> multimode system design that will comply after January 1 with what I >> feel is the biggest mistake/poorly guided part of NEC 2017 690, and >> that is 690.12. We are installing two Outback systems with the remote >> controlled combiner and even that won't comply after January 1 unless >> we parallel more subarrays (There's safety for you, lower >> voltage-higher amperage!). Thanks for any insight. >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >>          Christopher Warfel, PE >>        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>                (401)466-8978 >> >> EEI logo >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 16:22:48 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 14:22:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option? In-Reply-To: References: <501d388f-6b19-23c8-9730-4e553b32b219@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: I agree with you, Ray, as a purely off-grid solar installer and troubleshooter. I think all that was accomplished in NEC 2017 on this issue is that non-habitable structures, like the common off-grid 'power shed' don't need 690.12 RS anymore. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP Associate 970.672.4342 On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Ray wrote: > Midnite has some string level and module level 690.12 disconnects that > wire in like an optimizer or micro inverter, so those should be able to > meet the 2019 requirements. However beware: they as of yet still don't > have a reasonable disconnect system to disconnect the charge controller > which has capacitors that back feed the PV line for up to 90 seconds. They > have a DC GFI breaker with remote trip capability but it takes 4 spaces, so > with multiple charge controllers it turns into a wiring mess really fast. > > I actually wired in some 60 amp rated diodes on one system to get it to > pass inspection; what a joke, going back to 1980s equipment to pass 2017 > code. 690.12 is an absolute nightmare for small off grid. There really > should be some exemptions for small arrays (under 3 kW) and under 100 vdc. > Fire fighters are not going to get there till the structure is down > anyway, Response times are up to an hour for remote locations with > volunteer fire departments. Its not like in town at all; no one is going > to go on the roof on an off grid fire. > > On the flip side, there are real dangers created by nuisance tripping of > 690.12 equipment. Again, on grid it's a mere inconvenience, but off grid > it could mean spoiled food, frozen water lines, shut down heating systems > in subzero temperatures, and for the elderly: loss of their breathing > machines. I've already had a 74 year old customer climbing on their roof > multiple times to reset the Rapid shutdown equipment after nuisance trips. > Are we going to wait until we get someone killed in the name of "Safety" > before we fix this? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote: > > I am wondering about the experience installers have with a DC coupled > multimode system design that will comply after January 1 with what I feel > is the biggest mistake/poorly guided part of NEC 2017 690, and that is > 690.12. We are installing two Outback systems with the remote controlled > combiner and even that won't comply after January 1 unless we parallel > more subarrays (There's safety for you, lower voltage-higher amperage!). > Thanks for any insight. > > Chris > > > > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401)466-8978 > > [image: EEI logo] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 16:45:47 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 14:45:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option? In-Reply-To: <134ec283-77cf-68a0-33cf-e020957554a5@entech-engineering.com> References: <501d388f-6b19-23c8-9730-4e553b32b219@entech-engineering.com> <134ec283-77cf-68a0-33cf-e020957554a5@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: My opinion is that CMP4 did what they did with 690.12 from the very beginning in 2014 because the vast majority of PV systems are direct grid-tie in the city or suburbs. Off-grid systems......us one-percenters who live and do solar in remote areas..... we are not even on their radar. Just to beat that dead horse again that myself and Ray and others have hit for so long, if the regulations and therefore costs get too prohibitive, our customers creatively seek ways to avoid them. A RS shutdown system that costs a customer more than the 3-4 PV modules and racking is likely a no-go on their checkbook. Example from long ago....1989 NFPA 74 required all smoke detectors to be interconnected, so that if one sounded an alarm, all the others did. Actually a good idea. But off the grid in small systems, those smoke detectors are 120VAC and keep the inverter awake, out of sleep (search) mode 24/7/365, for a little hunting cabin that's only occupied a couple months out of the year. Only the mice and packrats would hear the alarm. SO......they install those 120VAC interconnected smoke detectors to get their CO, then after the inspector leaves they immediately rip them out and sell for salvage, stub off the 120VAC wiring so the inverter will sleep when they are away, and install battery smoke detectors. I'm not judging or admitting anything......I'm observing what goes on in the real off-grid world. It ain't the big city, that's for sure. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP Associate 970.672.4342 On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 12:11 PM, cwarfel wrote: > Thanks Ray, I am sure the moderator will let me know if this is off > topic, but I would be willing to help organize a petition drive to repeal this > part of the NEC and because there are good reasons. Not because it's > "inconvenient". Long time manufacturers, who historically produced safe > and high quality product(s) are being harmed by this language, which in > turn, benefited others. Safety is not necessarily increased. I feel CMP > 4 got hijacked focusing on this issue. There has been good reorganization > and integration of 690 with other Articles, but RS is not reflective of > this effort. Just the labeling requirements show that. > > There is a lot of focus on resiliency and the NEC increased the cost and > did not improve the safety of DC coupled multimode systems. So instead > of incorporating the roof resource that could be used to meet resiliency > goals, we are taking roofs out of some design considerations, and increasing > the costs for the other options. > > Chris > > On 7/6/2018 1:32 PM, Ray wrote: > > Midnite has some string level and module level 690.12 disconnects that > wire in like an optimizer or micro inverter, so those should be able to > meet the 2019 requirements. However beware: they as of yet still don't > have a reasonable disconnect system to disconnect the charge controller > which has capacitors that back feed the PV line for up to 90 seconds. They > have a DC GFI breaker with remote trip capability but it takes 4 spaces, so > with multiple charge controllers it turns into a wiring mess really fast. > > I actually wired in some 60 amp rated diodes on one system to get it to > pass inspection; what a joke, going back to 1980s equipment to pass 2017 > code. 690.12 is an absolute nightmare for small off grid. There really > should be some exemptions for small arrays (under 3 kW) and under 100 vdc. > Fire fighters are not going to get there till the structure is down > anyway, Response times are up to an hour for remote locations with > volunteer fire departments. Its not like in town at all; no one is going > to go on the roof on an off grid fire. > > On the flip side, there are real dangers created by nuisance tripping of > 690.12 equipment. Again, on grid it's a mere inconvenience, but off grid > it could mean spoiled food, frozen water lines, shut down heating systems > in subzero temperatures, and for the elderly: loss of their breathing > machines. I've already had a 74 year old customer climbing on their roof > multiple times to reset the Rapid shutdown equipment after nuisance trips. > Are we going to wait until we get someone killed in the name of "Safety" > before we fix this? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote: > > I am wondering about the experience installers have with a DC coupled > multimode system design that will comply after January 1 with what I feel > is the biggest mistake/poorly guided part of NEC 2017 690, and that is > 690.12. We are installing two Outback systems with the remote controlled > combiner and even that won't comply after January 1 unless we parallel > more subarrays (There's safety for you, lower voltage-higher amperage!). > Thanks for any insight. > > Chris > > > > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401)466-8978 > > [image: EEI logo] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401)466-8978 > > [image: EEI logo] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 16:57:56 2018 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 14:57:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option? In-Reply-To: References: <501d388f-6b19-23c8-9730-4e553b32b219@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: I believe there was a big improvement for off-grid systems as relates to RS in the 2017 NEC - the diagrams in 690.1(b) all show the PV system disconnect clearly now. If you check out the diagrams you can see that energy storage/battery circuits, including the battery-based inverter whether AC or DC coupled, are outside the PV system boundary, thus not PV system circuits, thus not subject to RS. Also, the NEC 2020 1st draft report has been published , so get your comments submitted! Rebekah Hren Member, NEC CMP-4 On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 2:22 PM Dan Fink wrote: > I agree with you, Ray, as a purely off-grid solar installer and > troubleshooter. I think all that was accomplished in NEC 2017 on this issue > is that non-habitable structures, like the common off-grid 'power shed' > don't need 690.12 RS anymore. > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > NABCEP Associate > > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Ray wrote: > >> Midnite has some string level and module level 690.12 disconnects that >> wire in like an optimizer or micro inverter, so those should be able to >> meet the 2019 requirements. However beware: they as of yet still don't >> have a reasonable disconnect system to disconnect the charge controller >> which has capacitors that back feed the PV line for up to 90 seconds. They >> have a DC GFI breaker with remote trip capability but it takes 4 spaces, so >> with multiple charge controllers it turns into a wiring mess really fast. >> >> I actually wired in some 60 amp rated diodes on one system to get it to >> pass inspection; what a joke, going back to 1980s equipment to pass 2017 >> code. 690.12 is an absolute nightmare for small off grid. There really >> should be some exemptions for small arrays (under 3 kW) and under 100 vdc. >> Fire fighters are not going to get there till the structure is down >> anyway, Response times are up to an hour for remote locations with >> volunteer fire departments. Its not like in town at all; no one is going >> to go on the roof on an off grid fire. >> >> On the flip side, there are real dangers created by nuisance tripping of >> 690.12 equipment. Again, on grid it's a mere inconvenience, but off grid >> it could mean spoiled food, frozen water lines, shut down heating systems >> in subzero temperatures, and for the elderly: loss of their breathing >> machines. I've already had a 74 year old customer climbing on their roof >> multiple times to reset the Rapid shutdown equipment after nuisance trips. >> Are we going to wait until we get someone killed in the name of "Safety" >> before we fix this? >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote: >> >> I am wondering about the experience installers have with a DC coupled >> multimode system design that will comply after January 1 with what I >> feel is the biggest mistake/poorly guided part of NEC 2017 690, and that >> is 690.12. We are installing two Outback systems with the remote c >> ontrolled combiner and even that won't comply after January 1 unless we parallel >> more subarrays (There's safety for you, lower voltage-higher amperage!). >> Thanks for any insight. >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Christopher Warfel, PE >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> (401)466-8978 >> >> [image: EEI logo] >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 17:05:23 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 15:05:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option? In-Reply-To: References: <501d388f-6b19-23c8-9730-4e553b32b219@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Rebekah...Thank you for your work.....That was another HUGE improvement in NEC 2017. Some AHJs using NEC 2014 were firm on the big DC battery bank 690.12 RS shunt trip breakers....nightmare of both cost and installation for off-grid folks. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP Associate 970.672.4342 On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 2:57 PM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > I believe there was a big improvement for off-grid systems as relates to > RS in the 2017 NEC - the diagrams in 690.1(b) all show the PV system > disconnect clearly now. If you check out the diagrams you can see that > energy storage/battery circuits, including the battery-based inverter > whether AC or DC coupled, are outside the PV system boundary, thus not PV > system circuits, thus not subject to RS. > > Also, the NEC 2020 1st draft report has been published > , > so get your comments submitted! > > Rebekah Hren > Member, NEC CMP-4 > > On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 2:22 PM Dan Fink wrote: > >> I agree with you, Ray, as a purely off-grid solar installer and >> troubleshooter. I think all that was accomplished in NEC 2017 on this issue >> is that non-habitable structures, like the common off-grid 'power shed' >> don't need 690.12 RS anymore. >> >> Dan Fink >> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >> NABCEP Associate >> >> 970.672.4342 >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Ray wrote: >> >>> Midnite has some string level and module level 690.12 disconnects that >>> wire in like an optimizer or micro inverter, so those should be able to >>> meet the 2019 requirements. However beware: they as of yet still don't >>> have a reasonable disconnect system to disconnect the charge controller >>> which has capacitors that back feed the PV line for up to 90 seconds. They >>> have a DC GFI breaker with remote trip capability but it takes 4 spaces, so >>> with multiple charge controllers it turns into a wiring mess really fast. >>> >>> I actually wired in some 60 amp rated diodes on one system to get it to >>> pass inspection; what a joke, going back to 1980s equipment to pass 2017 >>> code. 690.12 is an absolute nightmare for small off grid. There really >>> should be some exemptions for small arrays (under 3 kW) and under 100 vdc. >>> Fire fighters are not going to get there till the structure is down >>> anyway, Response times are up to an hour for remote locations with >>> volunteer fire departments. Its not like in town at all; no one is going >>> to go on the roof on an off grid fire. >>> >>> On the flip side, there are real dangers created by nuisance tripping of >>> 690.12 equipment. Again, on grid it's a mere inconvenience, but off grid >>> it could mean spoiled food, frozen water lines, shut down heating systems >>> in subzero temperatures, and for the elderly: loss of their breathing >>> machines. I've already had a 74 year old customer climbing on their roof >>> multiple times to reset the Rapid shutdown equipment after nuisance trips. >>> Are we going to wait until we get someone killed in the name of "Safety" >>> before we fix this? >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote: >>> >>> I am wondering about the experience installers have with a DC coupled >>> multimode system design that will comply after January 1 with what I >>> feel is the biggest mistake/poorly guided part of NEC 2017 690, and that >>> is 690.12. We are installing two Outback systems with the remote c >>> ontrolled combiner and even that won't comply after January 1 unless we parallel >>> more subarrays (There's safety for you, lower voltage-higher amperage!). >>> Thanks for any insight. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Christopher Warfel, PE >>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>> (401)466-8978 >>> >>> [image: EEI logo] >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Jul 6 17:52:16 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 17:52:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option? In-Reply-To: References: <501d388f-6b19-23c8-9730-4e553b32b219@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <1c51330d-6864-3080-042f-b550fd699fbf@entech-engineering.com> The issue I first raised was within the array boundary. It was very helpful that it was clarified that battery conductors are not PV circuits. This still leaves the problem of dc coupled multimode inverters on a roof having to limit the voltage to 80 or less.  It really needs to be changed toat least 150vdc.  A tremendous national resource in dc couple potential has been written out of existence. On 7/6/2018 4:57 PM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > I believe there was a big improvement for off-grid systems as relates > to RS in the 2017 NEC - the diagrams in 690.1(b) all show the PV > system disconnect clearly now.  If you check out the diagrams you can > see that energy storage/battery circuits, including the battery-based > inverter whether AC or DC coupled, are outside the PV system boundary, > thus not PV system circuits, thus not subject to RS. > > Also, the NEC 2020 1st draft report has been published > , > so get your comments submitted! > > Rebekah Hren > Member, NEC CMP-4 > > On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 2:22 PM Dan Fink > wrote: > > I agree with you, Ray, as a purely off-grid solar installer and > troubleshooter. I think all that was accomplished in NEC 2017 on > this issue is that non-habitable structures, like the common > off-grid 'power shed' don't need 690.12 RS anymore. > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > NABCEP Associate > > 970.672.4342 > > > On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Ray > wrote: > > Midnite has some string level and module level 690.12 > disconnects that wire in like an optimizer or micro inverter, > so those should be able to meet the 2019 requirements.  > However beware:  they as of yet still don't have a reasonable > disconnect system to disconnect the charge controller which > has capacitors that back feed the PV line for up to 90 > seconds.  They have a DC GFI breaker with remote trip > capability but it takes 4 spaces, so with multiple charge > controllers it turns into a wiring mess really fast. > > I actually wired in some 60 amp rated diodes on one system to > get it to pass inspection; what a joke, going back to 1980s > equipment to pass 2017 code. 690.12 is an absolute nightmare > for small off grid. There really should be some exemptions for > small arrays (under 3 kW) and under 100 vdc.  Fire fighters > are not going to get there till the structure is down anyway,  > Response times are up to an hour for remote locations with > volunteer fire departments.  Its not like in town at all;  no > one is going to go on the roof on an off grid fire. > > On the flip side, there are real dangers created by nuisance > tripping of 690.12 equipment.  Again, on grid it's a mere > inconvenience, but off grid it could mean spoiled food, frozen > water lines, shut down heating systems in subzero > temperatures, and for the elderly: loss of their breathing > machines. I've already had a 74 year old customer climbing on > their roof multiple times to reset the Rapid shutdown > equipment after nuisance trips.  Are we going to wait until we > get someone killed in the name of "Safety" before we fix this? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote: >> >> I am wondering about the experience installers have with a DC >> coupled multimode system design that will comply after >> January 1 with what I feel is the biggest mistake/poorly >> guided part of NEC 2017 690, and that is 690.12. We are >> installing two Outback systems with the remote controlled >> combiner and even that won't comply after January 1 unless we >> parallel more subarrays (There's safety for you, lower >> voltage-higher amperage!). Thanks for any insight. >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Christopher Warfel, PE >>        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>                (401)466-8978 >> >> EEI logo >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Jul 6 18:39:35 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 16:39:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option? In-Reply-To: <7db683f0-17c1-68b2-442d-31a2056452b3@solarray.com> References: <7db683f0-17c1-68b2-442d-31a2056452b3@solarray.com> Message-ID: <676960d6-bf36-0460-8247-c4d42d2fef26@solarray.com> -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option? Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 16:37:47 -0600 From: Ray To: Rebekah Hren Hi Rebekah; I very much appreciated your previous posts on this. Yes, we do not need to disconnect the inverter and battery per previous interpretations.  However, the RS system can and will trip for a variety of reasons, which disconnects the charging system.  It might take a couple of days to discharge the batteries, but the results are the same: rotten meat in the fridge and a dead battery.  If no one is home, thousands of dollars of battery could be ruined in a matter of weeks, if its Gel or AGM. If we get to a point where all the modules have shut down built in, and the Controllers also have built in disconnect so their capacitors don't back feed, then it won't be so hard to comply with 690.12.  In the mean time though, off grid should be given a clear exemption based on array size and Voc of the array.  We are often only wiring 2 modules in series, so we are already well below 100 v.   Rules designed for 600 v arrays should not unilaterally apply to everyone, just as 600 VAC rules don't all apply to 120 vac residential.  There are numerous exemptions for lower voltage AC situations, we are just asking that the same thinking be applied to PV. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/6/18 2:57 PM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > I believe there was a big improvement for off-grid systems as relates > to RS in the 2017 NEC - the diagrams in 690.1(b) all show the PV > system disconnect clearly now.  If you check out the diagrams you can > see that energy storage/battery circuits, including the battery-based > inverter whether AC or DC coupled, are outside the PV system boundary, > thus not PV system circuits, thus not subject to RS. > > Also, the NEC 2020 1st draft report has been published > , > so get your comments submitted! > > Rebekah Hren > Member, NEC CMP-4 > > On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 2:22 PM Dan Fink > wrote: > > I agree with you, Ray, as a purely off-grid solar installer and > troubleshooter. I think all that was accomplished in NEC 2017 on > this issue is that non-habitable structures, like the common > off-grid 'power shed' don't need 690.12 RS anymore. > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > NABCEP Associate > > 970.672.4342 > > > On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Ray > wrote: > > Midnite has some string level and module level 690.12 > disconnects that wire in like an optimizer or micro inverter, > so those should be able to meet the 2019 requirements.  > However beware:  they as of yet still don't have a reasonable > disconnect system to disconnect the charge controller which > has capacitors that back feed the PV line for up to 90 > seconds.  They have a DC GFI breaker with remote trip > capability but it takes 4 spaces, so with multiple charge > controllers it turns into a wiring mess really fast. > > I actually wired in some 60 amp rated diodes on one system to > get it to pass inspection; what a joke, going back to 1980s > equipment to pass 2017 code.    690.12 is an absolute > nightmare for small off grid.  There really should be some > exemptions for small arrays (under 3 kW) and under 100 vdc. > Fire fighters are not going to get there till the structure is > down anyway,  Response times are up to an hour for remote > locations with volunteer fire departments.  Its not like in > town at all; no one is going to go on the roof on an off grid > fire. > > On the flip side, there are real dangers created by nuisance > tripping of 690.12 equipment.  Again, on grid it's a mere > inconvenience, but off grid it could mean spoiled food, frozen > water lines, shut down heating systems in subzero > temperatures, and for the elderly: loss of their breathing > machines.  I've already had a 74 year old customer climbing on > their roof multiple times to reset the Rapid shutdown > equipment after nuisance trips. Are we going to wait until we > get someone killed in the name of "Safety" before we fix this? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote: >> >> I am wondering about the experience installers have with a DC >> coupled multimode system design that will comply after >> January 1 with what I feel is the biggest mistake/poorly >> guided part of NEC 2017 690, and that is 690.12. We are >> installing two Outback systems with the remote controlled >> combiner and even that won't comply after January 1 unless we >> parallel more subarrays (There's safety for you, lower >> voltage-higher amperage!). Thanks for any insight. >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Christopher Warfel, PE >>        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>                (401)466-8978 >> >> EEI logo >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 20:23:21 2018 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 18:23:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option? In-Reply-To: <676960d6-bf36-0460-8247-c4d42d2fef26@solarray.com> References: <7db683f0-17c1-68b2-442d-31a2056452b3@solarray.com> <676960d6-bf36-0460-8247-c4d42d2fef26@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray and Dan and Chris, etc, I agree with a lot of what you are saying, don't get me wrong...I have an off-grid house too and I've been worrying about how module level shutdown will be implemented and what it means for reliability and cost, especially dc-coupled battery-based systems that really don't have or need MLPE. I'm working on article for the Sept/Oct Homepower about rapid shutdown and one the things I've been excited to learn about is the new Sunspec alliance power line communication protocol for receivers and transmitters for RS. As Ray mentioned Midnite is already selling their SOB (er, haha). And Tigo just got their cheapest RS MLPE option the TSF-F UL listed. What's cool is the devices are inverter-agnostic, and don't need another conductor for data or power running to them. But as Ray also said, they aren't working with charge controllers, yet. So I do think there is some good news on the horizon! From the way the 2020 NEC first draft is written, I don't perceive any chance of the 690.12 rules really changing drastically. But something else that may change the products we can use to meet the requirements is a new UL standard that is being worked on- UL 3741 PV Hazard control. I don't know much about it, but here is a list of the people who are on the Standards Technical Panel. I think a few of them are on this listserv so maybe one of them will give us an update! Best, Rebekah On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 4:39 PM Ray wrote: > > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option? > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 16:37:47 -0600 > From: Ray > To: Rebekah Hren > > Hi Rebekah; > > I very much appreciated your previous posts on this. Yes, we do not need > to disconnect the inverter and battery per previous interpretations. > However, the RS system can and will trip for a variety of reasons, which > disconnects the charging system. It might take a couple of days to > discharge the batteries, but the results are the same: rotten meat in the > fridge and a dead battery. If no one is home, thousands of dollars of > battery could be ruined in a matter of weeks, if its Gel or AGM. > > If we get to a point where all the modules have shut down built in, and > the Controllers also have built in disconnect so their capacitors don't > back feed, then it won't be so hard to comply with 690.12. In the mean > time though, off grid should be given a clear exemption based on array size > and Voc of the array. We are often only wiring 2 modules in series, so we > are already well below 100 v. Rules designed for 600 v arrays should not > unilaterally apply to everyone, just as 600 VAC rules don't all apply to > 120 vac residential. There are numerous exemptions for lower voltage AC > situations, we are just asking that the same thinking be applied to PV. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/6/18 2:57 PM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > > I believe there was a big improvement for off-grid systems as relates to > RS in the 2017 NEC - the diagrams in 690.1(b) all show the PV system > disconnect clearly now. If you check out the diagrams you can see that > energy storage/battery circuits, including the battery-based inverter > whether AC or DC coupled, are outside the PV system boundary, thus not PV > system circuits, thus not subject to RS. > > Also, the NEC 2020 1st draft report has been published > , > so get your comments submitted! > > Rebekah Hren > Member, NEC CMP-4 > > On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 2:22 PM Dan Fink wrote: > >> I agree with you, Ray, as a purely off-grid solar installer and >> troubleshooter. I think all that was accomplished in NEC 2017 on this issue >> is that non-habitable structures, like the common off-grid 'power shed' >> don't need 690.12 RS anymore. >> >> Dan Fink >> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >> NABCEP Associate >> >> 970.672.4342 >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Ray wrote: >> >>> Midnite has some string level and module level 690.12 disconnects that >>> wire in like an optimizer or micro inverter, so those should be able to >>> meet the 2019 requirements. However beware: they as of yet still don't >>> have a reasonable disconnect system to disconnect the charge controller >>> which has capacitors that back feed the PV line for up to 90 seconds. They >>> have a DC GFI breaker with remote trip capability but it takes 4 spaces, so >>> with multiple charge controllers it turns into a wiring mess really fast. >>> >>> I actually wired in some 60 amp rated diodes on one system to get it to >>> pass inspection; what a joke, going back to 1980s equipment to pass 2017 >>> code. 690.12 is an absolute nightmare for small off grid. There really >>> should be some exemptions for small arrays (under 3 kW) and under 100 vdc. >>> Fire fighters are not going to get there till the structure is down >>> anyway, Response times are up to an hour for remote locations with >>> volunteer fire departments. Its not like in town at all; no one is going >>> to go on the roof on an off grid fire. >>> >>> On the flip side, there are real dangers created by nuisance tripping of >>> 690.12 equipment. Again, on grid it's a mere inconvenience, but off grid >>> it could mean spoiled food, frozen water lines, shut down heating systems >>> in subzero temperatures, and for the elderly: loss of their breathing >>> machines. I've already had a 74 year old customer climbing on their roof >>> multiple times to reset the Rapid shutdown equipment after nuisance trips. >>> Are we going to wait until we get someone killed in the name of "Safety" >>> before we fix this? >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote: >>> >>> I am wondering about the experience installers have with a DC coupled >>> multimode system design that will comply after January 1 with what I >>> feel is the biggest mistake/poorly guided part of NEC 2017 690, and that >>> is 690.12. We are installing two Outback systems with the remote c >>> ontrolled combiner and even that won't comply after January 1 unless we parallel >>> more subarrays (There's safety for you, lower voltage-higher amperage!). >>> Thanks for any insight. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Christopher Warfel, PE >>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>> (401)466-8978 >>> >>> [image: EEI logo] >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Fri Jul 6 21:05:58 2018 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (RM You) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 18:05:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase question Message-ID: <4A222B21-BBD2-4059-8081-B9543770F6A8@solareagle.com> I have a legacy system with 12 Sanyo HIT 215N panels and Enphase 210’s. Client wants to re-do roof and add two more panels when the system is re-installed. Are there any concerns with mixing Enphase inverters on a single string, e.g. adding a couple of 265w panels and appropriate inverters? We don’t do a lot of grid tie and this hasn’t come up before. Ron From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 23:43:03 2018 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:43:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase question In-Reply-To: <4A222B21-BBD2-4059-8081-B9543770F6A8@solareagle.com> References: <4A222B21-BBD2-4059-8081-B9543770F6A8@solareagle.com> Message-ID: I don’t believe so, although you will need to use the new trunk cable system and new envoy. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Jul 6, 2018, at 6:05 PM, RM You wrote: > > I have a legacy system with 12 Sanyo HIT 215N panels and Enphase 210’s. Client wants to re-do roof and add two more panels when the system is re-installed. Are there any concerns with mixing Enphase inverters on a single string, e.g. adding a couple of 265w panels and appropriate inverters? We don’t do a lot of grid tie and this hasn’t come up before. > > Ron > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 02:59:16 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:59:16 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase question In-Reply-To: <4A222B21-BBD2-4059-8081-B9543770F6A8@solareagle.com> References: <4A222B21-BBD2-4059-8081-B9543770F6A8@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, Ron Thats a good thing with enphase, mix and don't need to match, you will need inverters that connect in line or just seperate them with a combiner/subpanel. You will need to stay away from the new Q inverter series as its on a different frequency for comms, 190's 210's 215's and as l recall the 250's all on the older EMU, they are getting harder to find but im sure there are some out there. Jerry On Fri, Jul 6, 2018, 3:06 PM RM You wrote: > I have a legacy system with 12 Sanyo HIT 215N panels and Enphase 210’s. > Client wants to re-do roof and add two more panels when the system is > re-installed. Are there any concerns with mixing Enphase inverters on a > single string, e.g. adding a couple of 265w panels and appropriate > inverters? We don’t do a lot of grid tie and this hasn’t come up before. > > Ron > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 11:32:06 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 08:32:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase question In-Reply-To: References: <4A222B21-BBD2-4059-8081-B9543770F6A8@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <64623D81-D1FF-4232-BC23-3047994DB30F@gmail.com> Hi Jerry, Can the new EMU work with the older units? Jay Peltz power. > On Jul 6, 2018, at 11:59 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches, Ron > Thats a good thing with enphase, mix and don't need to match, you will need inverters that connect in line or just seperate them with a combiner/subpanel. You will need to stay away from the new Q inverter series as its on a different frequency for comms, 190's 210's 215's and as l recall the 250's all on the older EMU, they are getting harder to find but im sure there are some out there. > Jerry > >> On Fri, Jul 6, 2018, 3:06 PM RM You wrote: >> I have a legacy system with 12 Sanyo HIT 215N panels and Enphase 210’s. Client wants to re-do roof and add two more panels when the system is re-installed. Are there any concerns with mixing Enphase inverters on a single string, e.g. adding a couple of 265w panels and appropriate inverters? We don’t do a lot of grid tie and this hasn’t come up before. >> >> Ron >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Sat Jul 7 13:35:23 2018 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 17:35:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase question In-Reply-To: <64623D81-D1FF-4232-BC23-3047994DB30F@gmail.com> References: <4A222B21-BBD2-4059-8081-B9543770F6A8@solareagle.com> , <64623D81-D1FF-4232-BC23-3047994DB30F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi wrenches, The older generation micros (M190s, M210s, M215s, M250s, S280s) all communicated at 144kHz, line to neutral and communicated with the old EMUs, the oval Envoys, and the Envoy-S system monitors. The new IQ micros (IQ 6, IQ 6+, IQ 7, IQ 7+, and IQ 7X) no longer have a neutral, so we had to go to a new communication protocol which is 110kHz, line to line. You would need a new IQ Envoy for pairing with the new IQ micros in addition to the existing system monitor. If your customer wants to stick with HIT modules similar to the Sanyo's they had originally, then you can pair the Panasonic HIT modules with our IQ 7X micros. We have a module compatibility tracker online here: https://enphase.com/en-us/support/module-compatibility Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell [Enphase_esig_logo6.jpg] Energy Evolved™ Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 Texas Master Electrician #284451 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay Sent: Saturday, July 7, 2018 8:32 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase question Hi Jerry, Can the new EMU work with the older units? Jay Peltz power. On Jul 6, 2018, at 11:59 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: Wrenches, Ron Thats a good thing with enphase, mix and don't need to match, you will need inverters that connect in line or just seperate them with a combiner/subpanel. You will need to stay away from the new Q inverter series as its on a different frequency for comms, 190's 210's 215's and as l recall the 250's all on the older EMU, they are getting harder to find but im sure there are some out there. Jerry On Fri, Jul 6, 2018, 3:06 PM RM You > wrote: I have a legacy system with 12 Sanyo HIT 215N panels and Enphase 210’s. Client wants to re-do roof and add two more panels when the system is re-installed. Are there any concerns with mixing Enphase inverters on a single string, e.g. adding a couple of 265w panels and appropriate inverters? We don’t do a lot of grid tie and this hasn’t come up before. Ron _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 19:20:53 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 13:20:53 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase question In-Reply-To: <64623D81-D1FF-4232-BC23-3047994DB30F@gmail.com> References: <4A222B21-BBD2-4059-8081-B9543770F6A8@solareagle.com> <64623D81-D1FF-4232-BC23-3047994DB30F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry, No, the new IQ and the older M & S inverters are on different comm frequencies. Jerry On Sat, Jul 7, 2018, 5:49 AM Jay wrote: > Hi Jerry, > > Can the new EMU work with the older units? > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > On Jul 6, 2018, at 11:59 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Wrenches, Ron > Thats a good thing with enphase, mix and don't need to match, you will > need inverters that connect in line or just seperate them with a > combiner/subpanel. You will need to stay away from the new Q inverter > series as its on a different frequency for comms, 190's 210's 215's and as > l recall the 250's all on the older EMU, they are getting harder to find > but im sure there are some out there. > Jerry > > On Fri, Jul 6, 2018, 3:06 PM RM You wrote: > >> I have a legacy system with 12 Sanyo HIT 215N panels and Enphase 210’s. >> Client wants to re-do roof and add two more panels when the system is >> re-installed. Are there any concerns with mixing Enphase inverters on a >> single string, e.g. adding a couple of 265w panels and appropriate >> inverters? We don’t do a lot of grid tie and this hasn’t come up before. >> >> Ron >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Sat Jul 7 20:02:52 2018 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 17:02:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase question In-Reply-To: References: <4A222B21-BBD2-4059-8081-B9543770F6A8@solareagle.com> <64623D81-D1FF-4232-BC23-3047994DB30F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5419F583-7097-4D3D-9A95-B118672BF44F@solareagle.com> Hi Nick, so if I understand you correctly then I can find some older Enphase units (I know where I can get some 250’s) and they will integrate with a couple of new 265w Hanwah Q Cells, no problem. I could just plug them in then add them to the existing array. The existing Envoy and 210 Enphase units will not have any issues etc.? Thanks! Ron earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com > On Jul 7, 2018, at 10:35 AM, Nick Soleil wrote: > > Hi wrenches, > > The older generation micros (M190s, M210s, M215s, M250s, S280s) all communicated at 144kHz, line to neutral and communicated with the old EMUs, the oval Envoys, and the Envoy-S system monitors. > > The new IQ micros (IQ 6, IQ 6+, IQ 7, IQ 7+, and IQ 7X) no longer have a neutral, so we had to go to a new communication protocol which is 110kHz, line to line. > > You would need a new IQ Envoy for pairing with the new IQ micros in addition to the existing system monitor. > > If your customer wants to stick with HIT modules similar to the Sanyo's they had originally, then you can pair the Panasonic HIT modules with our IQ 7X micros. We have a module compatibility tracker online here: > https://enphase.com/en-us/support/module-compatibility > > > Cordially, > Nick Soleil > Enphase Energy > Product Manager > > (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office > (707) 321-2937 // cell > > Energy > Evolved ™ > Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > Texas Master Electrician #284451 > > > > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay > Sent: Saturday, July 7, 2018 8:32 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase question > > Hi Jerry, > > Can the new EMU work with the older units? > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > On Jul 6, 2018, at 11:59 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Wrenches, Ron >> Thats a good thing with enphase, mix and don't need to match, you will need inverters that connect in line or just seperate them with a combiner/subpanel. You will need to stay away from the new Q inverter series as its on a different frequency for comms, 190's 210's 215's and as l recall the 250's all on the older EMU, they are getting harder to find but im sure there are some out there. >> Jerry >> >> On Fri, Jul 6, 2018, 3:06 PM RM You > wrote: >> I have a legacy system with 12 Sanyo HIT 215N panels and Enphase 210’s. Client wants to re-do roof and add two more panels when the system is re-installed. Are there any concerns with mixing Enphase inverters on a single string, e.g. adding a couple of 265w panels and appropriate inverters? We don’t do a lot of grid tie and this hasn’t come up before. >> >> Ron >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Sun Jul 8 07:47:51 2018 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 11:47:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? In-Reply-To: <4f66829ae83daa5a55a0a55c231d6d41.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> References: <4f66829ae83daa5a55a0a55c231d6d41.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Message-ID: <80da3d02872d425e8c9b8d4aad77e9a7@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello All The VFX/FX inverters does make use of the X240 transformer. The transformer itself could act as a step up, a step down, or a load balancing transformer. Neither the FXR or the Radian inverters require the transformer as a load balancing transformer. The transformer can still be used in its step up or step down configurations. The FXRA does not use the transformer for load balancing therefore each inverter must be sized to handle the loads and any associated surges as required by the ac loads on that leg. What was lost was the ability of the inverter systems to "borrow" from the lessor used ac leg. What was gained. The FXRA can sell back with up to 10 inverters compared to two of the GVFX . The FXRA can have up to 9 inverters in a 3 phase system compared to 3 with the VFX. The FXRA has seven modes of operation allowing on grid or off grid operation. SA capabilities are also available. The question "How much wattage could be supplied by the Radian on a single AC leg" was also asked. I put 6000 watts on L1 leaving no loads connected to the L2 phase. I will add this is not recommended practice. The loads should be balanced at the ac panel as closely as possible. But real life conditions are not always ideal. I hope this helps to clarify. Take Care All -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 7:53 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? The 8kw radian still has to have balance! You can't expect it to supply 8kw @ 120vac. It can supply 8kw @ 240 vac. > Does each of the 4 kW 240 volt inverters have a maximum on the > 120-volt power it can supply? for example, can it supply 70% of the 4 > kW on 120 -volts? > This example would leave 5.6 kW of 120-volt? > > On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 11:09 PM, jerrysgarage01 > > wrote: > >> The Radian has 2, 4k, 240 volt inverters, so its different but the >> way the computer works it makes the same from the load side of things >> Jerry >> >> >> >> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: frenergy >> Date: 5/29/18 5:51 PM (GMT-10:00) >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xfmr's job? >> >> Hey folks, >> >> Outback FP2 with Xfrmr shifts power to "other" leg if >> that leg needs more than the one FX can provide, right? Say, you >> need 5.5 KW on leg 1, the Xfrmr pulls some power from the leg 2 >> (inverter) to support that 5.5KW load on leg 1. >> >> My question (assuming above is accurate) is does the 8048 Radian do >> the same? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist > .html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sun Jul 8 10:02:32 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 10:02:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option? In-Reply-To: References: <7db683f0-17c1-68b2-442d-31a2056452b3@solarray.com> <676960d6-bf36-0460-8247-c4d42d2fef26@solarray.com> Message-ID: <2be5f71f-7543-a79c-5eb4-ec7ca498904a@entech-engineering.com> Thanks Rebekah, At this time, I feel like we are stranded on one option that used to be very popular with my customers.  Unlike most of the mainland, 95% of our customers want batteries. Right now, we are only going to do ground mounted dc coupled until we have a chance to evaluate the Outback system. The combiner box is large and that doesn't excite some people. Chris On 7/6/2018 8:23 PM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > Hi Ray and Dan and Chris, etc, > > I agree with a lot of what you are saying, don't get me wrong...I have > an off-grid house too and I've been worrying about how module level > shutdown will be implemented and what it means for reliability and > cost, especially dc-coupled battery-based systems that really don't > have or need MLPE. > > I'm working on article for the Sept/Oct Homepower about rapid shutdown > and one the things I've been excited to learn about is the new Sunspec > alliance power line communication protocol > > for receivers and transmitters for RS. As Ray mentioned Midnite is > already selling their SOB > > (er, haha). And Tigo just got their cheapest RS MLPE option the TSF-F > UL > listed. What's cool is the devices are inverter-agnostic, and don't > need another conductor for data or power running to them. But as Ray > also said, they aren't working with charge controllers, yet. > > So I do think there is some good news on the horizon! From the way the > 2020 NEC first draft is written, I don't perceive any chance of the > 690.12 rules really changing drastically. But something else that may > change the products we can use to meet the requirements is a new UL > standard that is being worked on- UL 3741 PV Hazard control. I don't > know much about it, but here is a list of the people >  who > are on the Standards Technical Panel. I think a few of them are on > this listserv so maybe one of them will give us an update! > > Best, > Rebekah > > > > On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 4:39 PM Ray > wrote: > > > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option? > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 16:37:47 -0600 > From: Ray > To: Rebekah Hren > > > > > Hi Rebekah; > > I very much appreciated your previous posts on this. Yes, we do > not need to disconnect the inverter and battery per previous > interpretations.  However, the RS system can and will trip for a > variety of reasons, which disconnects the charging system.  It > might take a couple of days to discharge the batteries, but the > results are the same: rotten meat in the fridge and a dead > battery. If no one is home, thousands of dollars of battery could > be ruined in a matter of weeks, if its Gel or AGM. > > If we get to a point where all the modules have shut down built > in, and the Controllers also have built in disconnect so their > capacitors don't back feed, then it won't be so hard to comply > with 690.12.  In the mean time though, off grid should be given a > clear exemption based on array size and Voc of the array.  We are > often only wiring 2 modules in series, so we are already well > below 100 v.   Rules designed for 600 v arrays should not > unilaterally apply to everyone, just as 600 VAC rules don't all > apply to 120 vac residential.  There are numerous exemptions for > lower voltage AC situations, we are just asking that the same > thinking be applied to PV. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/6/18 2:57 PM, Rebekah Hren wrote: >> I believe there was a big improvement for off-grid systems as >> relates to RS in the 2017 NEC - the diagrams in 690.1(b) all show >> the PV system disconnect clearly now.  If you check out the >> diagrams you can see that energy storage/battery circuits, >> including the battery-based inverter whether AC or DC coupled, >> are outside the PV system boundary, thus not PV system circuits, >> thus not subject to RS. >> >> Also, the NEC 2020 1st draft report has been published >> , >> so get your comments submitted! >> >> Rebekah Hren >> Member, NEC CMP-4 >> >> On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 2:22 PM Dan Fink > > wrote: >> >> I agree with you, Ray, as a purely off-grid solar installer >> and troubleshooter. I think all that was accomplished in NEC >> 2017 on this issue is that non-habitable structures, like the >> common off-grid 'power shed' don't need 690.12 RS anymore. >> >> Dan Fink >> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >> NABCEP Associate >> >> 970.672.4342 >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Ray > > wrote: >> >> Midnite has some string level and module level 690.12 >> disconnects that wire in like an optimizer or micro >> inverter, so those should be able to meet the 2019 >> requirements.  However beware:  they as of yet still >> don't have a reasonable disconnect system to disconnect >> the charge controller which has capacitors that back feed >> the PV line for up to 90 seconds. They have a DC GFI >> breaker with remote trip capability but it takes 4 >> spaces, so with multiple charge controllers it turns into >> a wiring mess really fast. >> >> I actually wired in some 60 amp rated diodes on one >> system to get it to pass inspection; what a joke, going >> back to 1980s equipment to pass 2017 code. 690.12 is an >> absolute nightmare for small off grid.  There really >> should be some exemptions for small arrays (under 3 kW) >> and under 100 vdc.  Fire fighters are not going to get >> there till the structure is down anyway,  Response times >> are up to an hour for remote locations with volunteer >> fire departments.  Its not like in town at all;  no one >> is going to go on the roof on an off grid fire. >> >> On the flip side, there are real dangers created by >> nuisance tripping of 690.12 equipment.  Again, on grid >> it's a mere inconvenience, but off grid it could mean >> spoiled food, frozen water lines, shut down heating >> systems in subzero temperatures, and for the elderly: >> loss of their breathing machines.  I've already had a 74 >> year old customer climbing on their roof multiple times >> to reset the Rapid shutdown equipment after nuisance >> trips.  Are we going to wait until we get someone killed >> in the name of "Safety" before we fix this? >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote: >>> >>> I am wondering about the experience installers have with >>> a DC coupled multimode system design that will comply >>> after January 1 with what I feel is the biggest >>> mistake/poorly guided part of NEC 2017 690, and that is >>> 690.12. We are installing two Outback systems with the >>> remote controlled combiner and even that won't comply >>> after January 1 unless we parallel more subarrays >>> (There's safety for you, lower voltage-higher >>> amperage!). Thanks for any insight. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Christopher Warfel, PE >>>        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>> (401)466-8978 >>> >>> EEI logo >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> Tel: 336.266.8800 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 >> NC Licensed Electrical Contractor >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mikek at spiritsolar.net Sun Jul 8 18:45:26 2018 From: mikek at spiritsolar.net (Mike Kocsmiersky) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 18:45:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] crumbling ballast blocks In-Reply-To: References: <018101d40e54$3c9b4f00$b5d1ed00$@icloud.com> Message-ID: <01a801d4170d$5d6faac0$184f0040$@net> I recommend the hydraulically pressed ballast block over the non hydraulically pressed kind. From: cwarfel [mailto:cwarfel at entech-engineering.com] Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 1:08 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] crumbling ballast blocks I am not trying to prolong this thread, but I do want to say that there should be an inspection of the blocks in freeze/thaw areas. We started an inspection program of our systems or systems in the area and although we don't install ballasted systems, we found enough other things to address. On my own 8 year old system zip tie failure was over 50%. It opened my eyes to the need to do these inspections, and spec better materials at the start. I remember the survey in Wisconsin regarding the inspecting of fairly old solar thermal systems. All the participants really seemed to love their systems, but I think over 3/4 of them were not working. On 7/1/2018 8:02 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Kirt, Chris, Wrenches We have not had any issues other then one or two in Hawaii or California, it might be the location, concrete blocks sitting in the weather all exposed to rain from on all sides and then potential freezing conditions will cause failure of the blocks, the same issue pools will get if there are tiles around the edge when they pop off in freezing conditions but thats just me> Jerry NABCEP Installer and PVI On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: All, I have a 6 year old ballasted roof system in which about 50% of the solid cap blocks(16”L x 8”w x 4”D) are cracked and crumbing, some are close to rubble. I assume it was a bad batch, but has anyone seen this before? What might be the preventive remedy in the future? A coating of some sort? Kirk Herander Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 27th Anniversary 1991-2018 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM 2003 Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5316 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Mon Jul 9 14:01:09 2018 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 18:01:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC for the Second Time References: <1610670372.1488045.1531159269341.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1610670372.1488045.1531159269341@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Wise Wrenches, We have a client who installed a GT system with us in 2015.  They now want to install another system on the same house.  Will they still qualify for the 30% ITC?  Or is that a one time only thing? Thanks a Ton!  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at arp-solar.com Mon Jul 9 15:38:48 2018 From: gary at arp-solar.com (gary easton) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 15:38:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, What are you all seeing required as setbacks post 2017? I am having inspectors vary between wanting a 3' lane at the bottom and sides to allowing the array down to the gutter, and from requiring between 18" and 3' at the ridge. -- Gary Easton Appalachian Renewable Power Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” ~Ghandi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Jul 9 16:43:51 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 16:43:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs Message-ID: Has your area adopted NFPA 1? If so, setbacks are described in it. Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------From: gary eastonDate: Mon, Jul 9, 2018 3:38 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Solar set backs Hello Wrenches,What are you all seeing required as setbacks post 2017?  I am having inspectors vary between wanting a 3' lane at the bottom and sides to allowing the array down to the gutter, and from requiring between 18" and 3' at the ridge.     -- Gary Easton Appalachian Renewable PowerStewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV                                                             T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.”~Ghandi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jul 9 17:14:55 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC for the Second Time In-Reply-To: <1610670372.1488045.1531159269341@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1610670372.1488045.1531159269341.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1610670372.1488045.1531159269341@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4bcc987d1de147cd3f3e16015271813e.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I would tell them to do it! I have heard people say that it could be interpreted differently. I know of at least 100 of my offgrid clients have claimed the credit and none have been audited since 2005. None before that also.... Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Dear Wise Wrenches, > We have a client who installed a GT system with us in 2015.  They now > want to install another system on the same house.  Will they still > qualify for the 30% ITC?  Or is that a one time only thing? > Thanks a Ton! > >  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. > The BRIGHT CHOICE > Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors > move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From hiltondier at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 22:05:35 2018 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier III) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:05:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? Message-ID: I have a client who needs a monitoring system for a 48V nominal NiCad battery bank on a boat. It's 4 parallel strings of 6V batteries. (Not ideal, I know) It's a passenger boat in Canada so all electrical devices need to be UL/CSA listed. None of the Bogart Engineering monitors are listed. Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks! Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Jul 9 23:05:37 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 23:05:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? Message-ID: Are their batteries UL/CSA listed? Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------From: Hilton Dier IIIDate: Mon, Jul 9, 2018 10:05 PMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? I have a client who needs a monitoring system for a 48V nominal NiCad battery bank on a boat. It's 4 parallel strings of 6V batteries. (Not ideal, I know) It's a passenger boat in Canada so all electrical devices need to be UL/CSA listed. None of the Bogart Engineering monitors are listed. Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks! Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tom at solar-biz.com Tue Jul 10 10:53:04 2018 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 14:53:04 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Look at either the BlueSky IPM Pro Remote with shunt or the Schneider Battery monitor. The MidNite Battery monitor is more basic as it has no shunt Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300] Your 5-star rating really matters to us. Click to rate! Solar Biz™ team works hard to provide you the best customer service. If we don't deserve a 5-star rating, please contact us directly. We'll do what it takes to win your approval. Please note my new E-Mail E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Hilton Dier III Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 9:06 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? I have a client who needs a monitoring system for a 48V nominal NiCad battery bank on a boat. It's 4 parallel strings of 6V batteries. (Not ideal, I know) It's a passenger boat in Canada so all electrical devices need to be UL/CSA listed. None of the Bogart Engineering monitors are listed. Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks! Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5987 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue Jul 10 11:27:05 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:27:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Victron has marine battery monitors and their quality is good. T > On Jul 9, 2018, at 11:05 PM, glenn.burt at glbcc.com wrote: > > Are their batteries UL/CSA listed? > > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Hilton Dier III > Date: Mon, Jul 9, 2018 10:05 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ; > Cc: > Subject:[RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? > > I have a client who needs a monitoring system for a 48V nominal NiCad battery bank on a boat. It's 4 parallel strings of 6V batteries. (Not ideal, I know) It's a passenger boat in Canada so all electrical devices need to be UL/CSA listed. None of the Bogart Engineering monitors are listed. > > Any suggestions appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Hilton > -- > Hilton Dier III > Missisquoi River Hydro > Renewable Energy Design > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 12:09:26 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 10:09:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Midnite battery monitor requires a shunt, it piggybacks onto that shunt. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP Associate 970.672.4342 On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 8:53 AM, Tom Duffy wrote: > Look at either the BlueSky IPM Pro Remote with shunt or the Schneider > Battery monitor. The MidNite Battery monitor is more basic as it has no > shunt > > > > Kind regards > > > > *Tom Duffy* > > *Senior Solar Design Engineer* > > [image: Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300] > > Your 5-star rating really matters to us. Click to rate! > Solar Biz™ team works hard to provide you the > best customer service. If we don't deserve a 5-star rating, please contact > us directly. We'll do what it takes to win your approval. > > *Please note my new E-Mail* > > *E-Mail: **tom at solar-biz.com * > > *Main Number: **888-826-0939* > > *Panama Office: **507-836-5588 X 122* > > *Direct Toll Free:* *888-503-6772* > > *International: **575-539-2111 X 122* > > *SKYPE Address: **thesolarbiz (e-mail first)* > > *I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it > just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few > million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just > about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"* > > *Confidentiality Notice*: This message including any attachments is for > the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and > privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or > distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please > contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Hilton Dier III > *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 9:06 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? > > > > I have a client who needs a monitoring system for a 48V nominal NiCad > battery bank on a boat. It's 4 parallel strings of 6V batteries. (Not > ideal, I know) It's a passenger boat in Canada so all electrical devices > need to be UL/CSA listed. None of the Bogart Engineering monitors are > listed. > > Any suggestions appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Hilton > > -- > > Hilton Dier III > > Missisquoi River Hydro > > Renewable Energy Design > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5987 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Tue Jul 10 14:36:05 2018 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:36:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just to clarify, MidNite has two (2) battery monitors....  Sort of... The  MNBCM that Tom referred to is a shunt-less voltage monitor that lets you know when the battery has not received an Absorb charge cycle for 1 week and 2 weeks.  It also has somewhat of a voltage meter.  It is purely based on battery voltage and looks for the rise in voltage for an accumulated of around 2 hours or so...  It has a semi-circle of LEDs on it. Then the Whizbang Junior is a 500A @ 50 mV shunt tack-on circuit board that connects to the MidNite Classic or Kid charge controllers that calculates State Of Charge based on Amp-Hours in and out of the bank. Thanks, boB On 7/10/2018 9:09 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > The Midnite battery monitor requires a shunt, it piggybacks onto that > shunt. > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > NABCEP Associate > > 970.672.4342 > > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 8:53 AM, Tom Duffy > wrote: > > Look at either the BlueSky IPM Pro Remote with shunt or the > Schneider Battery monitor. The MidNite Battery monitor is more > basic as it has no shunt > > Kind regards > > *Tom Duffy* > > *Senior Solar Design Engineer* > > Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300 > > Your 5-star rating really matters to us. Click to rate! > Solar Biz™ team workshard to provide you > the best customer service. If we don't deserve a 5-star rating, > please contact us directly.  We'll do what it takes to win your > approval. > > */Please note my new E-Mail/* > > *E-Mail: **tom at solar-biz.com * > > *Main Number: **888-826-0939* > > *Panama Office: **507-836-5588 X 122* > > *Direct Toll Free:**888-503-6772* > > *International: **575-539-2111 X 122* > > *SKYPE Address: **thesolarbiz (/e-mail first/)* > > /I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. > And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor > safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than > we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"/// > > *Confidentiality Notice*:This message including any attachments is > for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain > confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, > use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the > intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any > copies of this message. > > ** > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Hilton Dier III > *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 9:06 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? > > I have a client who needs a monitoring system for a 48V nominal > NiCad battery bank on a boat. It's 4 parallel strings of 6V > batteries. (Not ideal, I know) It's a passenger boat in Canada so > all electrical devices need to be UL/CSA listed. None of the > Bogart Engineering monitors are listed. > > Any suggestions appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Hilton > > -- > > Hilton Dier III > > Missisquoi River Hydro > > Renewable Energy Design > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5987 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Tue Jul 10 16:19:26 2018 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:19:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2c78dd9f-ccc3-6a23-6378-0e605a79c699@midnitesolar.com> I don't know of any listed battery monitors.  Not sure what spec they would be tested to ? However... In Canada, I have heard of systems being individually blessed by inspectors or whoever that include products that don't have listings but everything in the system had to have a listing. I know that this was done for our wind Clipper in Canada not long ago. Email me directly and I can try to find the particulars of that situation if it might help here. Thanks, boB On 7/10/2018 11:36 AM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > > Just to clarify, MidNite has two (2) battery monitors....  Sort of... > > The  MNBCM that Tom referred to is a shunt-less voltage monitor that > lets you know when > the battery has not received an Absorb charge cycle for 1 week and 2 > weeks.  It also has > somewhat of a voltage meter.  It is purely based on battery voltage > and looks for the rise > in voltage for an accumulated of around 2 hours or so...  It has a > semi-circle of LEDs on it. > > Then the Whizbang Junior is a 500A @ 50 mV shunt tack-on circuit board > that connects to > the MidNite Classic or Kid charge controllers that calculates State Of > Charge based on > Amp-Hours in and out of the bank. > > Thanks, > boB > > > On 7/10/2018 9:09 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >> The Midnite battery monitor requires a shunt, it piggybacks onto that >> shunt. >> >> Dan Fink >> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >> ~ PV Installation Professional >> ~ Small Wind Installer >> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >> NABCEP Associate >> >> 970.672.4342 >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 8:53 AM, Tom Duffy > > wrote: >> >> Look at either the BlueSky IPM Pro Remote with shunt or the >> Schneider Battery monitor. The MidNite Battery monitor is more >> basic as it has no shunt >> >> Kind regards >> >> *Tom Duffy* >> >> *Senior Solar Design Engineer* >> >> Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300 >> >> Your 5-star rating really matters to us. Click to rate! >> Solar Biz™ team workshard to provide you >> the best customer service. If we don't deserve a 5-star rating, >> please contact us directly. We'll do what it takes to win your >> approval. >> >> */Please note my new E-Mail/* >> >> *E-Mail: **tom at solar-biz.com * >> >> *Main Number: **888-826-0939* >> >> *Panama Office: **507-836-5588 X 122* >> >> *Direct Toll Free:**888-503-6772* >> >> *International: **575-539-2111 X 122* >> >> *SKYPE Address: **thesolarbiz (/e-mail first/)* >> >> /I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to >> fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion >> reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers >> more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's >> wireless!"/// >> >> *Confidentiality Notice*:This message including any attachments >> is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain >> confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, >> use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the >> intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any >> copies of this message. >> >> ** >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] *On Behalf Of >> *Hilton Dier III >> *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 9:06 PM >> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? >> >> I have a client who needs a monitoring system for a 48V nominal >> NiCad battery bank on a boat. It's 4 parallel strings of 6V >> batteries. (Not ideal, I know) It's a passenger boat in Canada so >> all electrical devices need to be UL/CSA listed. None of the >> Bogart Engineering monitors are listed. >> >> Any suggestions appreciated. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Hilton >> >> -- >> >> Hilton Dier III >> >> Missisquoi River Hydro >> >> Renewable Energy Design >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5987 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Jul 10 17:02:25 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:02:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? In-Reply-To: <2c78dd9f-ccc3-6a23-6378-0e605a79c699@midnitesolar.com> References: <2c78dd9f-ccc3-6a23-6378-0e605a79c699@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <97b4dfa6-4aa2-16ff-5a66-619337128b4c@solarray.com> This is probably a dumb question, but is the NiCad battery UL listed?  Most batteries are not. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/10/18 2:19 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > > I don't know of any listed battery monitors.  Not sure what spec they > would be tested to ? > > However... > In Canada, I have heard of systems being individually blessed by > inspectors or whoever that > include products that don't have listings but everything in the system > had to have a listing. > > I know that this was done for our wind Clipper in Canada not long ago. > > Email me directly and I can try to find the particulars of that > situation if it might help here. > > Thanks, > boB > > > On 7/10/2018 11:36 AM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: >> >> >> Just to clarify, MidNite has two (2) battery monitors....  Sort of... >> >> The  MNBCM that Tom referred to is a shunt-less voltage monitor that >> lets you know when >> the battery has not received an Absorb charge cycle for 1 week and 2 >> weeks.  It also has >> somewhat of a voltage meter.  It is purely based on battery voltage >> and looks for the rise >> in voltage for an accumulated of around 2 hours or so...  It has a >> semi-circle of LEDs on it. >> >> Then the Whizbang Junior is a 500A @ 50 mV shunt tack-on circuit >> board that connects to >> the MidNite Classic or Kid charge controllers that calculates State >> Of Charge based on >> Amp-Hours in and out of the bank. >> >> Thanks, >> boB >> >> >> On 7/10/2018 9:09 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >>> The Midnite battery monitor requires a shunt, it piggybacks onto >>> that shunt. >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >>> NABCEP Associate >>> >>> 970.672.4342 >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 8:53 AM, Tom Duffy >> > wrote: >>> >>> Look at either the BlueSky IPM Pro Remote with shunt or the >>> Schneider Battery monitor. The MidNite Battery monitor is more >>> basic as it has no shunt >>> >>> Kind regards >>> >>> *Tom Duffy* >>> >>> *Senior Solar Design Engineer* >>> >>> Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300 >>> >>> Your 5-star rating really matters to us. Click to rate! >>> Solar Biz™ team workshard to provide you >>> the best customer service. If we don't deserve a 5-star rating, >>> please contact us directly. We'll do what it takes to win your >>> approval. >>> >>> */Please note my new E-Mail/* >>> >>> *E-Mail: **tom at solar-biz.com * >>> >>> *Main Number: **888-826-0939* >>> >>> *Panama Office: **507-836-5588 X 122* >>> >>> *Direct Toll Free:**888-503-6772* >>> >>> *International: **575-539-2111 X 122* >>> >>> *SKYPE Address: **thesolarbiz (/e-mail first/)* >>> >>> /I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to >>> fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion >>> reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers >>> more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's >>> wireless!"/// >>> >>> *Confidentiality Notice*:This message including any attachments >>> is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain >>> confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized >>> review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you >>> are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and >>> delete any copies of this message. >>> >>> ** >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> ] *On Behalf >>> Of *Hilton Dier III >>> *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 9:06 PM >>> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? >>> >>> I have a client who needs a monitoring system for a 48V nominal >>> NiCad battery bank on a boat. It's 4 parallel strings of 6V >>> batteries. (Not ideal, I know) It's a passenger boat in Canada >>> so all electrical devices need to be UL/CSA listed. None of the >>> Bogart Engineering monitors are listed. >>> >>> Any suggestions appreciated. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Hilton >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Hilton Dier III >>> >>> Missisquoi River Hydro >>> >>> Renewable Energy Design >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5987 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Tue Jul 10 17:25:01 2018 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 17:25:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009c01d41894$76eac1f0$64c045d0$@dovetailsolar.com> Hey Gary, Ohio Fire Code does cover this. It’s a matter of if the Fire marshal in you project area wants to waive or alter the requirements. http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1301:7-7-06v1 Specifically 605.11.1.2 is for residential buildings. There is some conflict in terms of Hip roofs in the code there. 605.11.1.2.2 states a single 3ft path on one edge or another for a hip roof, but 605.11.1.2.4 states that an 18 space is allowed when modules are mounted on two adjacent roof planes with a hip roof. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of gary easton Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs Hello Wrenches, What are you all seeing required as setbacks post 2017? I am having inspectors vary between wanting a 3' lane at the bottom and sides to allowing the array down to the gutter, and from requiring between 18" and 3' at the ridge. -- Gary Easton Appalachian Renewable Power Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” ~Ghandi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 17:34:15 2018 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 17:34:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? Message-ID: Thanks for all the responses. The people on this list are gold standard. I’ll look into the various monitors. The batteries are SAFT (now Alcatel) STM-140 flooded NiCads. I don’t know where these people got them, but they were surplus of some sort. They have tested them and culled a few bad ones. I’m thinking they may have to rely on the mercy and understanding of the Canadian coast guard equivalent of an AHJ. If there are no listed monitors there should be an exemption. Ignorance of SOC is worse for safety than a non-listed battery monitor. But that would be logical, so... Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Tue Jul 10 17:38:02 2018 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 21:38:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs In-Reply-To: <009c01d41894$76eac1f0$64c045d0$@dovetailsolar.com> References: , <009c01d41894$76eac1f0$64c045d0$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: Calfire code seems to be the standard being somewhat enforced as the standard nationwide. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Daniel Young Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:25:01 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs Hey Gary, Ohio Fire Code does cover this. It’s a matter of if the Fire marshal in you project area wants to waive or alter the requirements. http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1301:7-7-06v1 Specifically 605.11.1.2 is for residential buildings. There is some conflict in terms of Hip roofs in the code there. 605.11.1.2.2 states a single 3ft path on one edge or another for a hip roof, but 605.11.1.2.4 states that an 18 space is allowed when modules are mounted on two adjacent roof planes with a hip roof. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of gary easton Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs Hello Wrenches, What are you all seeing required as setbacks post 2017? I am having inspectors vary between wanting a 3' lane at the bottom and sides to allowing the array down to the gutter, and from requiring between 18" and 3' at the ridge. -- Gary Easton Appalachian Renewable Power Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.” ~Ghandi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Jul 10 19:46:13 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel at entech-engineering.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 19:46:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs In-Reply-To: References: , <009c01d41894$76eac1f0$64c045d0$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: NYSERDA out of NY has reasonable amendments to the IBC for setbacks for access and ventilation. They clarify that the hip roof valley is 18" either side for a total of 36" width. On 2018-07-10 17:38, Wayne Irwin wrote: > Calfire code seems to be the standard being somewhat enforced as the standard nationwide. > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > ------------------------- > > FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of Daniel Young > SENT: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:25:01 PM > TO: 'RE-wrenches' > SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs > > Hey Gary, > > Ohio Fire Code does cover this. It's a matter of if the Fire marshal in you project area wants to waive or alter the requirements. > > http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1301:7-7-06v1 > > Specifically 605.11.1.2 is for residential buildings. There is some conflict in terms of Hip roofs in the code there. 605.11.1.2.2 states a single 3ft path on one edge or another for a hip roof, but 605.11.1.2.4 states that an 18 space is allowed when modules are mounted on two adjacent roof planes with a hip roof. > > With Regards, > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF gary easton > SENT: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:39 PM > TO: RE-wrenches > SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs > > Hello Wrenches, > > What are you all seeing required as setbacks post 2017? I am having inspectors vary between wanting a 3' lane at the bottom and sides to allowing the array down to the gutter, and from requiring between 18" and 3' at the ridge. > > -- > > Gary Easton > Appalachian Renewable Power > > Stewart, Ohio 45778 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > T: 740-277-8498 > > www.arp-solar.com [1] > > "FIRST THEY IGNORE YOU. THEN THEY LAUGH AT YOU. THEN THEY FIGHT YOU. THEN YOU WIN." > > ~Ghandi > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] Links: ------ [1] http://www.arp-solar.com [2] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [3] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jul 10 17:31:20 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 14:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? In-Reply-To: <97b4dfa6-4aa2-16ff-5a66-619337128b4c@solarray.com> References: <2c78dd9f-ccc3-6a23-6378-0e605a79c699@midnitesolar.com> <97b4dfa6-4aa2-16ff-5a66-619337128b4c@solarray.com> Message-ID: <7e8990d00da7f42583ca126d05ecf2be.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I have one question also. Do you have the Nicad data to enter into a typical shunt based monitor to calibrate it? Without loading the 5 or 6 parameters a quality battery monitor needs, it really is not going to be that accurate. It is so nice to have the data from a BMS and no shunt required. Very accurate Soc:) > This is probably a dumb question, but is the NiCad battery UL listed?  > Most batteries are not. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/10/18 2:19 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: >> >> >> I don't know of any listed battery monitors.  Not sure what spec they >> would be tested to ? >> >> However... >> In Canada, I have heard of systems being individually blessed by >> inspectors or whoever that >> include products that don't have listings but everything in the system >> had to have a listing. >> >> I know that this was done for our wind Clipper in Canada not long ago. >> >> Email me directly and I can try to find the particulars of that >> situation if it might help here. >> >> Thanks, >> boB >> >> >> On 7/10/2018 11:36 AM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> Just to clarify, MidNite has two (2) battery monitors....  Sort of... >>> >>> The  MNBCM that Tom referred to is a shunt-less voltage monitor that >>> lets you know when >>> the battery has not received an Absorb charge cycle for 1 week and 2 >>> weeks.  It also has >>> somewhat of a voltage meter.  It is purely based on battery voltage >>> and looks for the rise >>> in voltage for an accumulated of around 2 hours or so...  It has a >>> semi-circle of LEDs on it. >>> >>> Then the Whizbang Junior is a 500A @ 50 mV shunt tack-on circuit >>> board that connects to >>> the MidNite Classic or Kid charge controllers that calculates State >>> Of Charge based on >>> Amp-Hours in and out of the bank. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> boB >>> >>> >>> On 7/10/2018 9:09 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >>>> The Midnite battery monitor requires a shunt, it piggybacks onto >>>> that shunt. >>>> >>>> Dan Fink >>>> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >>>> NABCEP Associate >>>> >>>> 970.672.4342 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 8:53 AM, Tom Duffy >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Look at either the BlueSky IPM Pro Remote with shunt or the >>>> Schneider Battery monitor. The MidNite Battery monitor is more >>>> basic as it has no shunt >>>> >>>> Kind regards >>>> >>>> *Tom Duffy* >>>> >>>> *Senior Solar Design Engineer* >>>> >>>> Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300 >>>> >>>> Your 5-star rating really matters to us. Click to rate! >>>> Solar Biz™ team workshard to provide you >>>> the best customer service. If we don't deserve a 5-star rating, >>>> please contact us directly. We'll do what it takes to win your >>>> approval. >>>> >>>> */Please note my new E-Mail/* >>>> >>>> *E-Mail: **tom at solar-biz.com * >>>> >>>> *Main Number: **888-826-0939* >>>> >>>> *Panama Office: **507-836-5588 X 122* >>>> >>>> *Direct Toll Free:**888-503-6772* >>>> >>>> *International: **575-539-2111 X 122* >>>> >>>> *SKYPE Address: **thesolarbiz (/e-mail first/)* >>>> >>>> /I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to >>>> fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion >>>> reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers >>>> more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's >>>> wireless!"/// >>>> >>>> *Confidentiality Notice*:This message including any attachments >>>> is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain >>>> confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized >>>> review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you >>>> are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and >>>> delete any copies of this message. >>>> >>>> ** >>>> >>>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> ] *On Behalf >>>> Of *Hilton Dier III >>>> *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 9:06 PM >>>> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? >>>> >>>> I have a client who needs a monitoring system for a 48V nominal >>>> NiCad battery bank on a boat. It's 4 parallel strings of 6V >>>> batteries. (Not ideal, I know) It's a passenger boat in Canada >>>> so all electrical devices need to be UL/CSA listed. None of the >>>> Bogart Engineering monitors are listed. >>>> >>>> Any suggestions appreciated. >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Hilton >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Hilton Dier III >>>> >>>> Missisquoi River Hydro >>>> >>>> Renewable Energy Design >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 17:55:21 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 14:55:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72147862-4945-446C-8C01-E79832993737@gmail.com> Putting a battery that generates massive amounts of hydrogen into a boat seems like a really bad idea to me. Jay Peltz Power > On Jul 10, 2018, at 2:34 PM, Hilton Dier wrote: > > Thanks for all the responses. The people on this list are gold standard. I’ll look into the various monitors. > > The batteries are SAFT (now Alcatel) STM-140 flooded NiCads. I don’t know where these people got them, but they were surplus of some sort. They have tested them and culled a few bad ones. > > I’m thinking they may have to rely on the mercy and understanding of the Canadian coast guard equivalent of an AHJ. If there are no listed monitors there should be an exemption. Ignorance of SOC is worse for safety than a non-listed battery monitor. But that would be logical, so... > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From solareagle at solareagle.com Tue Jul 10 22:37:49 2018 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (RM You) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 19:37:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Message-ID: Anybody know what’s up with Magnum Energy/ Sensata? I’ve been trying to get on their website both through direct magnumenergy.com links and through Sensata and there is no Magnum Energy website any more. Did I miss something here…? Hope not. The data site is still up but all the other links just show a 404 error. Ron earthRight Solar From hiltondier at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 20:44:55 2018 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 20:44:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL/CSA listed battery monitor? Message-ID: The batteries have a built in ventilation and watering system, so H2 can be vented directly outside. Alcatel/SAFT publishes detailed specs on the batteries so I think they should be able to get a reasonable result. They are kind of old school with all the LiFePo units around, but they are really durable and stand up to over charge and full discharge. I’ve used them in EVs and you can boil the snot out of them. Like an EQ every time. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From william at millersolar.com Wed Jul 11 14:39:49 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:39:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <027926AA-F95A-4000-8F83-F597D0612EFF@millersolar.com> Just pressed the flesh at the Sensata booth. What you report is a web glitch that they are aware of and is supposed to be very temporary. William PS: The web address has changed to www.magnum-dimensions.com Wm > On Jul 10, 2018, at 7:37 PM, RM You wrote: > > Anybody know what’s up with Magnum Energy/ Sensata? I’ve been trying to get on their website both through direct magnumenergy.com links and through Sensata and there is no Magnum Energy website any more. Did I miss something here…? Hope not. The data site is still up but all the other links just show a 404 error. > > Ron > earthRight Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From reellison at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 11:15:01 2018 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 11:15:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum In-Reply-To: <027926AA-F95A-4000-8F83-F597D0612EFF@millersolar.com> References: <027926AA-F95A-4000-8F83-F597D0612EFF@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <50FCB020-0401-401C-97B0-22FB050A15BC@gmail.com> Probably not the brightest move just to shut down websites that you’ve had for years ? You think with the company that size at least they were just redirect them and keep them open it’s not like it’s a ton of money Just my .02 worth Bob Ellison > On Jul 11, 2018, at 2:39 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Just pressed the flesh at the Sensata booth. What you report is a web glitch that they are aware of and is supposed to be very temporary. > > William > > PS: The web address has changed to www.magnum-dimensions.com > > Wm > > >> On Jul 10, 2018, at 7:37 PM, RM You wrote: >> >> Anybody know what’s up with Magnum Energy/ Sensata? I’ve been trying to get on their website both through direct magnumenergy.com links and through Sensata and there is no Magnum Energy website any more. Did I miss something here…? Hope not. The data site is still up but all the other links just show a 404 error. >> >> Ron >> earthRight Solar >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From solman at legacysolar.com Thu Jul 12 16:07:18 2018 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:07:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs In-Reply-To: References: <009c01d41894$76eac1f0$64c045d0$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: I had a student tell me that firefighters are often venting through the gable side wall as opposed to the roof. Can anyone confirm or deny this statement? Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 6:46 PM, wrote: > NYSERDA out of NY has reasonable amendments to the IBC for setbacks for > access and ventilation. They clarify that the hip roof valley is 18" either > side for a total of 36" width. > > > > On 2018-07-10 17:38, Wayne Irwin wrote: > > Calfire code seems to be the standard being somewhat enforced as the > standard nationwide. > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Daniel Young > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:25:01 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs > > > Hey Gary, > > > > Ohio Fire Code does cover this. It's a matter of if the Fire marshal in > you project area wants to waive or alter the requirements. > > > > http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1301:7-7-06v1 > > > > Specifically 605.11.1.2 is for residential buildings. There is some > conflict in terms of Hip roofs in the code there. 605.11.1.2.2 states a > single 3ft path on one edge or another for a hip roof, but 605.11.1.2.4 > states that an 18 space is allowed when modules are mounted on two adjacent > roof planes with a hip roof. > > > > With Regards, > > > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *gary easton > *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 3:39 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > What are you all seeing required as setbacks post 2017? I am having > inspectors vary between wanting a 3' lane at the bottom and sides to > allowing the array down to the gutter, and from requiring between 18" and > 3' at the ridge. > > > > -- > > Gary Easton > Appalachian Renewable Power > > Stewart, Ohio 45778 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > > T: 740-277-8498 > > www.arp-solar.com > > > "First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then > you win." > > ~Ghandi > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Jul 12 17:01:06 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:01:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7682e15208cc27d8665592f958fddfa13fb9d112@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> It is an interesting issue. If you have a peak roof with modules on the south side only, venting through the north side is wide open. Possibly the NEC could acknowledge this fact. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:07:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs I had a student tell me that firefighters are often venting through the gable side wall as opposed to the roof.  Can anyone confirm or deny this statement? Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com [1] 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 6:46 PM, wrote: NYSERDA out of NY has reasonable amendments to the IBC for setbacks for access and ventilation. They clarify that the hip roof valley is 18" either side for a total of 36" width.   On 2018-07-10 17:38, Wayne Irwin wrote: Calfire code seems to be the standard being somewhat enforced as the standard nationwide. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com [3] http://SolarChargingStation.net [4] 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ------------------------- FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of Daniel Young SENT: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:25:01 PM TO: 'RE-wrenches' SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs   Hey Gary,   Ohio Fire Code does cover this. It's a matter of if the Fire marshal in you project area wants to waive or alter the requirements.   http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1301:7-7-06v1 [7]   Specifically 605.11.1.2 is for residential buildings. There is some conflict in terms of Hip roofs in the code there. 605.11.1.2.2 states a single 3ft path on one edge or another for a hip roof, but 605.11.1.2.4 states that an 18 space is allowed when modules are mounted on two adjacent roof planes with a hip roof.   With Regards,   Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90   FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF gary easton SENT: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:39 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs   Hello Wrenches, What are you all seeing required as setbacks post 2017?  I am having inspectors vary between wanting a 3' lane at the bottom and sides to allowing the array down to the gutter, and from requiring between 18" and 3' at the ridge.       -- Gary Easton Appalachian Renewable Power Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV                                                             T: 740-277-8498  www.arp-solar.com [10]   "FIRST THEY IGNORE YOU. THEN THEY LAUGH AT YOU. THEN THEY FIGHT YOU. THEN YOU WIN." ~Ghandi   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [18] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] Links: ------ [1] http://www.legacysolar.com [2] mailto:cwarfel at entech-engineering.com [3] http://PureEnergySolar.com [4] http://SolarChargingStation.net [5] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] mailto:dyoung at dovetailsolar.com [7] http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1301:7-7-06v1 [8] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.arp-solar.com [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [19] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Thu Jul 12 17:03:45 2018 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Rich Nicol) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:03:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs In-Reply-To: References: <009c01d41894$76eac1f0$64c045d0$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: <009301d41a23$d7bb4960$8731dc20$@solartechvt.com> FD venting depends on direction of prevailing winds From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kristopher Schmid Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 4:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs I had a student tell me that firefighters are often venting through the gable side wall as opposed to the roof. Can anyone confirm or deny this statement? Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 6:46 PM, > wrote: NYSERDA out of NY has reasonable amendments to the IBC for setbacks for access and ventilation. They clarify that the hip roof valley is 18" either side for a total of 36" width. On 2018-07-10 17:38, Wayne Irwin wrote: Calfire code seems to be the standard being somewhat enforced as the standard nationwide. Wayne Irwin, President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. _____ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Daniel Young > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:25:01 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs Hey Gary, Ohio Fire Code does cover this. It's a matter of if the Fire marshal in you project area wants to waive or alter the requirements. http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1301:7-7-06v1 Specifically 605.11.1.2 is for residential buildings. There is some conflict in terms of Hip roofs in the code there. 605.11.1.2.2 states a single 3ft path on one edge or another for a hip roof, but 605.11.1.2.4 states that an 18 space is allowed when modules are mounted on two adjacent roof planes with a hip roof. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of gary easton Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:39 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs Hello Wrenches, What are you all seeing required as setbacks post 2017? I am having inspectors vary between wanting a 3' lane at the bottom and sides to allowing the array down to the gutter, and from requiring between 18" and 3' at the ridge. -- Gary Easton Appalachian Renewable Power Stewart, Ohio 45778 NABCEP Certified Solar PV T: 740-277-8498 www.arp-solar.com "First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win." ~Ghandi _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Jul 12 17:29:21 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel at entech-engineering.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:29:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs In-Reply-To: References: <009c01d41894$76eac1f0$64c045d0$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: <9c327a2a10ab5052170d3dfd1614ed7d@entech-engineering.com> I have been told this by many firefighters On 2018-07-12 16:07, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > I had a student tell me that firefighters are often venting through the gable side wall as opposed to the roof. Can anyone confirm or deny this statement? > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com [1] > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 6:46 PM, wrote: > > NYSERDA out of NY has reasonable amendments to the IBC for setbacks for access and ventilation. They clarify that the hip roof valley is 18" either side for a total of 36" width. > > On 2018-07-10 17:38, Wayne Irwin wrote: Calfire code seems to be the standard being somewhat enforced as the standard nationwide. > > Wayne Irwin, > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net [2] > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > ------------------------- > > FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of Daniel Young > SENT: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:25:01 PM > TO: 'RE-wrenches' > SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs > > Hey Gary, > > Ohio Fire Code does cover this. It's a matter of if the Fire marshal in you project area wants to waive or alter the requirements. > > http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1301:7-7-06v1 [3] > > Specifically 605.11.1.2 is for residential buildings. There is some conflict in terms of Hip roofs in the code there. 605.11.1.2.2 states a single 3ft path on one edge or another for a hip roof, but 605.11.1.2.4 states that an 18 space is allowed when modules are mounted on two adjacent roof planes with a hip roof. > > With Regards, > > Daniel Young, > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF gary easton > SENT: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:39 PM > TO: RE-wrenches > SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs > > Hello Wrenches, > > What are you all seeing required as setbacks post 2017? I am having inspectors vary between wanting a 3' lane at the bottom and sides to allowing the array down to the gutter, and from requiring between 18" and 3' at the ridge. > > -- > > Gary Easton > Appalachian Renewable Power > > Stewart, Ohio 45778 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > T: 740-277-8498 > > www.arp-solar.com [4] > > "FIRST THEY IGNORE YOU. THEN THEY LAUGH AT YOU. THEN THEY FIGHT YOU. THEN YOU WIN." > > ~Ghandi > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [6] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] Links: ------ [1] http://www.legacysolar.com [2] http://SolarChargingStation.net [3] http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1301:7-7-06v1 [4] http://www.arp-solar.com [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 17:39:19 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:39:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs In-Reply-To: References: <009c01d41894$76eac1f0$64c045d0$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: Many smaller and especially VFD departments don't ventilate the roof, as that is so dangerous and they have limited training time. The gables are one option but it does depend on wind direction. Our favorite is CAFS foam through a gable vent. Positive pressure ventilation and blitz attacks can also be used. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP Associate 970.672.4342 On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > I had a student tell me that firefighters are often venting through the > gable side wall as opposed to the roof. Can anyone confirm or deny this > statement? > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 22:06:33 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 16:06:33 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs In-Reply-To: <7682e15208cc27d8665592f958fddfa13fb9d112@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <7682e15208cc27d8665592f958fddfa13fb9d112@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Wrenches I can't say every fire department does this but should, depending on wind speed and direction will drive which side of a ridge is to be vented. Jerry On Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 11:01 AM wrote: > It is an interesting issue. If you have a peak roof with modules on the > south side only, venting through the north side is wide open. Possibly the > NEC could acknowledge this fact. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > "RE-wrenches" > > To: > "RE-wrenches" > Cc: > > Sent: > Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:07:18 -0500 > Subject: > Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs > > > I had a student tell me that firefighters are often venting through the > gable side wall as opposed to the roof. Can anyone confirm or deny this > statement? > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 6:46 PM, wrote: > >> NYSERDA out of NY has reasonable amendments to the IBC for setbacks for >> access and ventilation. They clarify that the hip roof valley is 18" either >> side for a total of 36" width. >> >> >> >> On 2018-07-10 17:38, Wayne Irwin wrote: >> >> Calfire code seems to be the standard being somewhat enforced as the >> standard nationwide. >> >> Wayne Irwin, >> President >> License #CVC56695 >> State Licensed Solar Contractor >> Pure Energy Solar International Inc. >> Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com >> http://PureEnergySolar.com >> http://SolarChargingStation.net >> 352 377-6527 Office >> 352 336-3299 Fax >> >> >> The Sun Is Always Shining! >> >> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are >> not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use >> or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail >> and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of Daniel Young >> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:25:01 PM >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs >> >> >> Hey Gary, >> >> >> >> Ohio Fire Code does cover this. It's a matter of if the Fire marshal in >> you project area wants to waive or alter the requirements. >> >> >> >> http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1301:7-7-06v1 >> >> >> >> Specifically 605.11.1.2 is for residential buildings. There is some >> conflict in terms of Hip roofs in the code there. 605.11.1.2.2 states a >> single 3ft path on one edge or another for a hip roof, but 605.11.1.2.4 >> states that an 18 space is allowed when modules are mounted on two adjacent >> roof planes with a hip roof. >> >> >> >> With Regards, >> >> >> >> Daniel Young, >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *gary easton >> *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 3:39 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs >> >> >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> What are you all seeing required as setbacks post 2017? I am having >> inspectors vary between wanting a 3' lane at the bottom and sides to >> allowing the array down to the gutter, and from requiring between 18" and >> 3' at the ridge. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Gary Easton >> Appalachian Renewable Power >> >> Stewart, Ohio 45778 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> >> T: 740-277-8498 >> >> www.arp-solar.com >> >> >> "First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then >> you win." >> >> ~Ghandi >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jul 13 10:06:16 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 07:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs In-Reply-To: References: <7682e15208cc27d8665592f958fddfa13fb9d112@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: The fire department often can't get to almost all of my offgrid homes until the next day after the fire. This is a prime reason not to put anything up on the roof in areas that are subject to wildfire. Interesting thread though! > Wrenches > I can't say every fire department does this but should, depending on wind > speed and direction will drive which side of a ridge is to be vented. > Jerry > > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 11:01 AM > wrote: > >> It is an interesting issue. If you have a peak roof with modules on the >> south side only, venting through the north side is wide open. Possibly >> the >> NEC could acknowledge this fact. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> "RE-wrenches" >> >> To: >> "RE-wrenches" >> Cc: >> >> Sent: >> Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:07:18 -0500 >> Subject: >> Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs >> >> >> I had a student tell me that firefighters are often venting through the >> gable side wall as opposed to the roof. Can anyone confirm or deny this >> statement? >> >> >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 137 West 1st Avenue >> Luck, WI 54853 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 6:46 PM, wrote: >> >>> NYSERDA out of NY has reasonable amendments to the IBC for setbacks for >>> access and ventilation. They clarify that the hip roof valley is 18" >>> either >>> side for a total of 36" width. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2018-07-10 17:38, Wayne Irwin wrote: >>> >>> Calfire code seems to be the standard being somewhat enforced as the >>> standard nationwide. >>> >>> Wayne Irwin, >>> President >>> License #CVC56695 >>> State Licensed Solar Contractor >>> Pure Energy Solar International Inc. >>> Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com >>> http://PureEnergySolar.com >>> http://SolarChargingStation.net >>> 352 377-6527 Office >>> 352 336-3299 Fax >>> >>> >>> The Sun Is Always Shining! >>> >>> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you >>> are >>> not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any >>> use >>> or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply >>> e-mail >>> and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>> behalf of Daniel Young >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:25:01 PM >>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs >>> >>> >>> Hey Gary, >>> >>> >>> >>> Ohio Fire Code does cover this. It's a matter of if the Fire marshal in >>> you project area wants to waive or alter the requirements. >>> >>> >>> >>> http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1301:7-7-06v1 >>> >>> >>> >>> Specifically 605.11.1.2 is for residential buildings. There is some >>> conflict in terms of Hip roofs in the code there. 605.11.1.2.2 states a >>> single 3ft path on one edge or another for a hip roof, but 605.11.1.2.4 >>> states that an 18 space is allowed when modules are mounted on two >>> adjacent >>> roof planes with a hip roof. >>> >>> >>> >>> With Regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Daniel Young, >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>> Behalf Of *gary easton >>> *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 3:39 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> What are you all seeing required as setbacks post 2017? I am having >>> inspectors vary between wanting a 3' lane at the bottom and sides to >>> allowing the array down to the gutter, and from requiring between 18" >>> and >>> 3' at the ridge. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Gary Easton >>> Appalachian Renewable Power >>> >>> Stewart, Ohio 45778 >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>> >>> T: 740-277-8498 >>> >>> www.arp-solar.com >>> >>> >>> "First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. >>> Then >>> you win." >>> >>> ~Ghandi >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From atruitt at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 17:02:27 2018 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 15:02:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 208V single-phase inverter options Message-ID: I'm in the hunt for a 208V single-phase inverter in the 15-30kW range for installation at an RV park. Various manufacturers have solutions below 12kW, but this project will involve multiple sites in the 30-80kW range and wall space is limited. Anyone ever seen this illusive animal? *Regards, * *Andrew Truitt | DRV * www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Jul 16 21:29:52 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 18:29:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 208V single-phase inverter options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Andrew, Fronius Primo inverters go up to 15 kW 208 v single phase, but are limited to 13750 VA output in 208 volt operation. I'm not aware of larger single phase 208 v inverters, although it is certainly possible that they are out there. http://www.fronius.com/en-us/usa/photovoltaics/products/all-products/inverters/fronius-primo/fronius-primo-15-0-1-208-240 August On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 6:18 PM Andrew Truitt wrote: > > I'm in the hunt for a 208V single-phase inverter in the 15-30kW range for > installation at an RV park. Various manufacturers have solutions below > 12kW, but this project will involve multiple sites in the 30-80kW range and > wall space is limited. Anyone ever seen this illusive animal? > > > *Regards, * > > *Andrew Truitt | DRV * > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > > > "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion > to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor > safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could > ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" > > ~William McDonough > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Jul 16 23:24:14 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 20:24:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 208V single-phase inverter options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I recently stacked 3, SMA SB-40 inverters and combined there outputs for 208 single phase.  Their 7.7KW puts out 6,660 watts at 208, 1Ph. Bill On 7/16/2018 6:29 PM, August Goers wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Fronius Primo inverters go up to 15 kW 208 v single phase, but are > limited to 13750 VA output in 208 volt operation. I'm not aware of > larger single phase 208 v inverters, although it is certainly possible > that they are out there. > > http://www.fronius.com/en-us/usa/photovoltaics/products/all-products/inverters/fronius-primo/fronius-primo-15-0-1-208-240 > > August > > > > > On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 6:18 PM Andrew Truitt > wrote: > > > I'm in the hunt for a 208V single-phase inverter in the 15-30kW > range for installation at an RV park.  Various manufacturers have > solutions below 12kW, but this project will involve multiple sites > in the 30-80kW range and wall space is limited.  Anyone ever seen > this illusive animal? > > > *Regards, * > > *Andrew Truitt | DRV * > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > > > "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I > prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an > enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. > It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. > And it's wireless!" > > ~William McDonough > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 12:59:06 2018 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:59:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 208V single-phase inverter options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks gentlemen. I think that Primo is going to be the best option (thank you August!). The service is 120/208 wye so it looks like we'd connect 2 hot legs + neutral for each inverter. Been a while since I've done one of these (I think we ran into some older homes in the DC area with 208V single-phase back in the day) but as I recall so long as you have the right inverter everything else is the standard single-phase design and installation process. *Regards, * *Andrew Truitt | DRV * www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 9:22 PM frenergy wrote: > I recently stacked 3, SMA SB-40 inverters and combined there outputs for > 208 single phase. Their 7.7KW puts out 6,660 watts at 208, 1Ph. > > Bill > > On 7/16/2018 6:29 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > Fronius Primo inverters go up to 15 kW 208 v single phase, but are limited > to 13750 VA output in 208 volt operation. I'm not aware of larger single > phase 208 v inverters, although it is certainly possible that they are out > there. > > > http://www.fronius.com/en-us/usa/photovoltaics/products/all-products/inverters/fronius-primo/fronius-primo-15-0-1-208-240 > > August > > > > > On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 6:18 PM Andrew Truitt wrote: > >> >> I'm in the hunt for a 208V single-phase inverter in the 15-30kW range for >> installation at an RV park. Various manufacturers have solutions below >> 12kW, but this project will involve multiple sites in the 30-80kW range and >> wall space is limited. Anyone ever seen this illusive animal? >> >> >> *Regards, * >> >> *Andrew Truitt | DRV * >> www.dr.ventures >> d: 202.486.7507 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 >> Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 >> >> >> >> "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer >> fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion >> reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we >> could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" >> >> ~William McDonough >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_1571775418369933228_m_-2621679594857588497_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 11:38:38 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 09:38:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte Dilution vs Voltage Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I have a homeowner client that takes pretty good care of her batteries. She has a 5 year old set of Interstate L16s (2 strings of 8). However, she recently didn't water them for longer than normal and they gulped up more distilled water than usual (4 gallons). She was unsure if any of the plates were exposed. She has reported that since she added the water the battery bank has lost about 1.5-2V (48V bank) of her bank voltage in the morning. She reported ~49.5V in the morning before she added the water and now she is below 48V. I have advised a good strong equalize charge to destratify the electrolyte. Will diluting the electrolyte make the voltage sag like that? Is there any other advice you might give her until I can get up there? Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Jul 18 12:04:59 2018 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 09:04:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte Dilution vs Voltage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac, I don't think she diluted the battery, it sounds like she exposed the tops of the plates to air and they are corroding. See the attached picture... see where the bottoms of the batteries are cooler than the rest? With the batteries in this picture they plates have been exposed to oxygen and the plates are corroding. That corrosion is adding resistance, and causing heat build up within the battery. If this were sulfation, you'd see a more even temp range within the entire battery. My guess is she exposed a bit of the plates, the best way to get this back, is to focus on full charges followed by short 15 to 20% discharges... that'll help bring back what every capacity that can be recovered. To do this: You charge to full... full absorb time and spot check spgs... you should be in the 1.260+ range on your spgs. You then discharge for 30-60 mins at the C/10 discharge rate... this will be about 28 to 35 amps DC.. I would watch individual battery voltages during this discharge to make sure you don't have a weak battery or cell within the battery. After the 30-60 mins you then do another full recharge.... After 4-10 of these cycles you should see a capacity gain If not then the capacity has probably been lost permanently. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a homeowner client that takes pretty good care of her batteries. > She has a 5 year old set of Interstate L16s (2 strings of 8). However, she > recently didn't water them for longer than normal and they gulped up more > distilled water than usual (4 gallons). She was unsure if any of the > plates were exposed. She has reported that since she added the water the > battery bank has lost about 1.5-2V (48V bank) of her bank voltage in the > morning. She reported ~49.5V in the morning before she added the water and > now she is below 48V. > > I have advised a good strong equalize charge to destratify the electrolyte. > > Will diluting the electrolyte make the voltage sag like that? Is there > any other advice you might give her until I can get up there? > > Thanks > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: flir_20180524T095256.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1073404 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Jul 18 13:16:08 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:16:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte Dilution vs Voltage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0ddb3043-b429-0f1c-db9a-5d78e904ceb7@solarray.com> Interstate is not a long life battery.  5 years is probably getting near the end.  As they age, they start using more water which leads to running them dry, which leads to killing them even quicker.  The end of service for L16s is usually not pretty.  I'd be checking for dead cells, in addition to Steve Higgins's recommendations. Whether she can recover them or not, its time to at least start shopping for new batteries.  As this continues, they'll use more and more water, make more acid mess, and in general not work as well from here on out.  Then, cells will start dying left and right, and it will get really miserable.  Basically it comes down to how long she is willing to suffer. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/18/18 9:38 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a homeowner client that takes pretty good care of her > batteries.  She has a 5 year old set of Interstate L16s (2 strings of > 8).  However, she recently didn't water them for longer than normal > and they gulped up more distilled water than usual (4 gallons).  She > was unsure if any of the plates were exposed.  She has reported that > since she added the water the battery bank has lost about 1.5-2V (48V > bank) of her bank voltage in the morning.  She reported ~49.5V in the > morning before she added the water and now she is below 48V. > > I have advised a good strong equalize charge to destratify the > electrolyte. > > Will diluting the electrolyte make the voltage sag like that?  Is > there any other advice you might give her until I can get up there? > > Thanks > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 13:28:08 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:28:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte Dilution vs Voltage In-Reply-To: <0ddb3043-b429-0f1c-db9a-5d78e904ceb7@solarray.com> References: <0ddb3043-b429-0f1c-db9a-5d78e904ceb7@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi guys, I appreciate the answers and comments. However, I did find out from her that she had forgot to connect one of the strings back in. So maybe we are OK. Thanks again On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 11:16 AM Ray wrote: > Interstate is not a long life battery. 5 years is probably getting near > the end. As they age, they start using more water which leads to running > them dry, which leads to killing them even quicker. The end of service for > L16s is usually not pretty. I'd be checking for dead cells, in addition to > Steve Higgins's recommendations. Whether she can recover them or not, its > time to at least start shopping for new batteries. As this continues, > they'll use more and more water, make more acid mess, and in general not > work as well from here on out. Then, cells will start dying left and > right, and it will get really miserable. Basically it comes down to how > long she is willing to suffer. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/18/18 9:38 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a homeowner client that takes pretty good care of her batteries. > She has a 5 year old set of Interstate L16s (2 strings of 8). However, she > recently didn't water them for longer than normal and they gulped up more > distilled water than usual (4 gallons). She was unsure if any of the > plates were exposed. She has reported that since she added the water the > battery bank has lost about 1.5-2V (48V bank) of her bank voltage in the > morning. She reported ~49.5V in the morning before she added the water and > now she is below 48V. > > I have advised a good strong equalize charge to destratify the electrolyte. > > Will diluting the electrolyte make the voltage sag like that? Is there > any other advice you might give her until I can get up there? > > Thanks > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 21:24:20 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:24:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte Dilution vs Voltage In-Reply-To: References: <0ddb3043-b429-0f1c-db9a-5d78e904ceb7@solarray.com> Message-ID: Mac, I was about to ditto Ray with his more common than I would like scenario of battery death when I saw your mention of the 2nd string not connected. It is always nice to see a solution that is simple and should have been considered, but wasn't. The assumption with battery issues usually is that they are actually hooked up! I often thought that it would be worth the money to supply a cheap AC/DC clamp meter with every installation so that a phone consultation could quickly determine if the strings were unbalanced and what might be the reason. Bad cells and bad connection will usually show up in a current check and then a quick voltage check of each battery with a load on the system will show the culprit if a bad cell and corrosion present might find the bad connection. I use Interstate L16's most of the time and find that the life is typically 6 years. I used to call them a 7 to 10 year battery but kept racheting back the claim until I now call them a 5 to 7 year battery with more if properly maintained. I have seen 10 years but it is rare. John Blittersdorf Off grid specialist Rob Stubbins Electrical and Solar. On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 1:28 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi guys, > > I appreciate the answers and comments. > > However, I did find out from her that she had forgot to connect one of the > strings back in. So maybe we are OK. > > Thanks again > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 11:16 AM Ray wrote: > >> Interstate is not a long life battery. 5 years is probably getting near >> the end. As they age, they start using more water which leads to running >> them dry, which leads to killing them even quicker. The end of service for >> L16s is usually not pretty. I'd be checking for dead cells, in addition to >> Steve Higgins's recommendations. Whether she can recover them or not, its >> time to at least start shopping for new batteries. As this continues, >> they'll use more and more water, make more acid mess, and in general not >> work as well from here on out. Then, cells will start dying left and >> right, and it will get really miserable. Basically it comes down to how >> long she is willing to suffer. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 7/18/18 9:38 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I have a homeowner client that takes pretty good care of her batteries. >> She has a 5 year old set of Interstate L16s (2 strings of 8). However, she >> recently didn't water them for longer than normal and they gulped up more >> distilled water than usual (4 gallons). She was unsure if any of the >> plates were exposed. She has reported that since she added the water the >> battery bank has lost about 1.5-2V (48V bank) of her bank voltage in the >> morning. She reported ~49.5V in the morning before she added the water and >> now she is below 48V. >> >> I have advised a good strong equalize charge to destratify the >> electrolyte. >> >> Will diluting the electrolyte make the voltage sag like that? Is there >> any other advice you might give her until I can get up there? >> >> Thanks >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jul 18 21:33:55 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 18:33:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte Dilution vs Voltage In-Reply-To: References: <0ddb3043-b429-0f1c-db9a-5d78e904ceb7@solarray.com> Message-ID: <56682f1b143bf93ff659080ddad8fe11@mail.gmail.com> Colleagues: I believe that circulating currents in multi-string battery installations are a major cause of premature failure of such a system. I think it is important to monitor these currents. Most telling would be checking these currents in an at-rest scenario. It would be helpful to have a baseline at install and then check periodically. Measuring these currents with any type of DC clamp-on meter can be inaccurate at best. In a conversation with Steve Higgins at a recent trade show I came up with this idea that may have some merit: If an install has more than one string of batteries, install an appropriately sized shunt in the negative lead of each string. At any later date you can apply any decent voltmeter with a millivolt scale and check for battery string imbalance with some degree of accuracy. Shunts are cheap and readily available and if you avoid the brand that Outback uses in the Radian GSLC cabinets, they are relatively rugged. We will be trying this in any future install with multiple strings, although we avoid this if at all possible. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *John Blittersdorf *Sent:* Wednesday, July 18, 2018 6:24 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte Dilution vs Voltage Mac, I was about to ditto Ray with his more common than I would like scenario of battery death when I saw your mention of the 2nd string not connected. It is always nice to see a solution that is simple and should have been considered, but wasn't. The assumption with battery issues usually is that they are actually hooked up! I often thought that it would be worth the money to supply a cheap AC/DC clamp meter with every installation so that a phone consultation could quickly determine if the strings were unbalanced and what might be the reason. Bad cells and bad connection will usually show up in a current check and then a quick voltage check of each battery with a load on the system will show the culprit if a bad cell and corrosion present might find the bad connection. I use Interstate L16's most of the time and find that the life is typically 6 years. I used to call them a 7 to 10 year battery but kept racheting back the claim until I now call them a 5 to 7 year battery with more if properly maintained. I have seen 10 years but it is rare. John Blittersdorf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solar1online at charter.net Thu Jul 19 02:15:24 2018 From: solar1online at charter.net (solar1online at charter.net) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 01:15:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte Dilution vs Voltage Message-ID: Steve, Thanks very much for the IR image and the explanation and one possible remedy. I had (mistakenly) always considered once the plates were exposed to air there was always irreparable damage. What camera are you using? Thanks again, Bill Loesch314 631 1094 -----------------------------------------From: "Steve Higgins" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Wednesday July 18 2018 11:05:06AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte Dilution vs Voltage Mac, I don't think she diluted the battery, it sounds like she exposed the tops of the plates to air and they are corroding. See the attached picture... see where the bottoms of the batteries are cooler than the rest? With the batteries in this picture they plates have been exposed to oxygen and the plates are corroding. That corrosion is adding resistance, and causing heat build up within the battery. If this were sulfation, you'd see a more even temp range within the entire battery. My guess is she exposed a bit of the plates, the best way to get this back, is to focus on full charges followed by short 15 to 20% discharges... that'll help bring back what every capacity that can be recovered. To do this: You charge to full... full absorb time and spot check spgs... you should be in the 1.260+ range on your spgs. You then discharge for 30-60 mins at the C/10 discharge rate... this will be about 28 to 35 amps DC.. I would watch individual battery voltages during this discharge to make sure you don't have a weak battery or cell within the battery. After the 30-60 mins you then do another full recharge.... After 4-10 of these cycles you should see a capacity gain If not then the capacity has probably been lost permanently. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] ------------------------- CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------- On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hello Wrenches, I have a homeowner client that takes pretty good care of her batteries. She has a 5 year old set of Interstate L16s (2 strings of 8). However, she recently didn't water them for longer than normal and they gulped up more distilled water than usual (4 gallons). She was unsure if any of the plates were exposed. She has reported that since she added the water the battery bank has lost about 1.5-2V (48V bank) of her bank voltage in the morning. She reported ~49.5V in the morning before she added the water and now she is below 48V. I have advised a good strong equalize charge to destratify the electrolyte. Will diluting the electrolyte make the voltage sag like that? Is there any other advice you might give her until I can get up there? Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [27] Change listserver email address & settings: [28]http://lists.re-wrenches.org/ [29]options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: [30]http://www.mail-archive.com/ [31]re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [32] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [33] Links: ------ [1] http://www.rollsbattery.com [2] http://www.rollsbattery.com [3] http://www.rollsbattery.com [4] http://www.rollsbattery.com [5] http://www.rollsbattery.com [6] http://www.rollsbattery.com [7] http://www.rollsbattery.com [8] http://www.rollsbattery.com [9] http://www.rollsbattery.com [10] http://www.rollsbattery.com [11] http://www.rollsbattery.com [12] http://www.rollsbattery.com [13] http://www.rollsbattery.com [14] http://www.rollsbattery.com [15] http://www.rollsbattery.com [16] mailto:steve at surrette.com [17] http://mail2.spectrum.net/#UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_ [18] http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery [19] http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery [20] http://www.twitter.com/RollsBattery [21] https://www.youtube.com/user/RollsBattery [22] https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering [23] http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery [24] http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery [25] http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery [26] mailto:maclewis1 at gmail.com [27] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [28] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [29] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/ [30] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [31] http://www.mail-archive.com/ [32] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [33] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Jul 19 08:36:10 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 08:36:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte Dilution vs Voltage In-Reply-To: <56682f1b143bf93ff659080ddad8fe11@mail.gmail.com> References: <0ddb3043-b429-0f1c-db9a-5d78e904ceb7@solarray.com> <56682f1b143bf93ff659080ddad8fe11@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <782F3420-46A3-4E7A-8F24-240511E93268@swnl.net> One of the biggest issues I find w/ battery installations is instead of using larger capacity 2 volt cell batteries, there are “installers” that install string after string of 6VDC batteries and wire them without buss bars, so the last string contributes very little during discharge & gets very little charging. Who really wants to take service 144 battery filler wells? (2100 Ahr when using L16s@ 350Ahr for 48 vdc.) Its no wonder why battery banks suffer from neglect. According to Surrette's battery installation and warrantee guide for # of maximum strings per battery bank; Preferably 2 no more then 3 strings. ( Steve please correct me here). Buss bars are cheap, when amortized over the life cycle of an installation and are easily configured W/ shunts if one choses to install multiple strings. Buss bars also improve battery performance both during discharging & charging, & they also facility the installation of an inline class “T” fuse > On Jul 18, 2018, at 9:33 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > I believe that circulating currents in multi-string battery installations are a major cause of premature failure of such a system. I think it is important to monitor these currents. Most telling would be checking these currents in an at-rest scenario. It would be helpful to have a baseline at install and then check periodically. > > Measuring these currents with any type of DC clamp-on meter can be inaccurate at best. In a conversation with Steve Higgins at a recent trade show I came up with this idea that may have some merit: If an install has more than one string of batteries, install an appropriately sized shunt in the negative lead of each string. At any later date you can apply any decent voltmeter with a millivolt scale and check for battery string imbalance with some degree of accuracy. Shunts are cheap and readily available and if you avoid the brand that Outback uses in the Radian GSLC cabinets, they are relatively rugged. > > We will be trying this in any future install with multiple strings, although we avoid this if at all possible. > > William Miller > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of John Blittersdorf > Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 6:24 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte Dilution vs Voltage > > Mac, > I was about to ditto Ray with his more common than I would like scenario of battery death when I saw your mention of the 2nd string not connected. It is always nice to see > a solution that is simple and should have been considered, but wasn't. The assumption with battery issues usually is that they are actually hooked up! I often thought that it would be worth the money to supply a cheap AC/DC clamp meter with every installation so that a phone consultation could quickly determine if the strings were unbalanced and what might be the reason. Bad cells and bad connection will usually show up in a current check and then a quick voltage check of each battery with a load on the system will show the culprit if a bad cell and corrosion present might find the bad connection. I use Interstate L16's most of the time and find that the life is typically 6 years. I used to call them a 7 to 10 year battery but kept racheting back the claim until I now call them a 5 to 7 year battery with more if properly maintained. I have seen 10 years but it is rare. > > John Blittersdorf > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunmountain at netstep.net Thu Jul 19 10:07:28 2018 From: sunmountain at netstep.net (Larry Brown) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 10:07:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling Message-ID: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed? I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter Any recommendations? Thanks Larry Larry Brown Sun Mountain 845-657-8096 Sunmountain at netstep.net From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jul 19 10:26:44 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 07:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling In-Reply-To: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> References: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> Message-ID: <75c0bafb99f1817ad258d81cc153ad58.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> You could ask them? I know the XW+ works fine with the SMA TL series grid inverters. Phone: +1 866-519-1470 Email: re.techsupport at schneider-electric.com --Dave > Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple > with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed? > I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off > grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter > Any recommendations? > > Thanks > Larry > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > 845-657-8096 > Sunmountain at netstep.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jul 19 09:51:03 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 06:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte Dilution vs Voltage In-Reply-To: <782F3420-46A3-4E7A-8F24-240511E93268@swnl.net> References: <0ddb3043-b429-0f1c-db9a-5d78e904ceb7@solarray.com> <56682f1b143bf93ff659080ddad8fe11@mail.gmail.com> <782F3420-46A3-4E7A-8F24-240511E93268@swnl.net> Message-ID: <2f420c3d924e9392bf7d6aaec1e5e6bc.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Definitely agree and can't believe people still do multiple strings with so much choice out there. >From Red October, "one ping Vasili, one ping only" --Dave > One of the biggest issues I find w/ battery installations is instead of > using larger capacity 2 volt cell batteries, there are “installers” > that install string after string of 6VDC batteries and wire them without > buss bars, so the last string contributes very little during discharge & > gets very little charging. Who really wants to take service 144 battery > filler wells? (2100 Ahr when using L16s@ 350Ahr for 48 vdc.) Its no wonder > why battery banks suffer from neglect. According to Surrette's battery > installation and warrantee guide for # of maximum strings per battery > bank; Preferably 2 no more then 3 strings. ( Steve please correct me > here). Buss bars are cheap, when amortized over the life cycle of an > installation and are easily configured W/ shunts if one choses to install > multiple strings. Buss bars also improve battery performance both during > discharging & charging, & they also facility the installation of an inline > class “T” fuse >> On Jul 18, 2018, at 9:33 PM, William Miller >> wrote: >> >> Colleagues: >> >> I believe that circulating currents in multi-string battery >> installations are a major cause of premature failure of such a system. >> I think it is important to monitor these currents. Most telling would >> be checking these currents in an at-rest scenario. It would be helpful >> to have a baseline at install and then check periodically. >> >> Measuring these currents with any type of DC clamp-on meter can be >> inaccurate at best. In a conversation with Steve Higgins at a recent >> trade show I came up with this idea that may have some merit: If an >> install has more than one string of batteries, install an appropriately >> sized shunt in the negative lead of each string. At any later date you >> can apply any decent voltmeter with a millivolt scale and check for >> battery string imbalance with some degree of accuracy. Shunts are cheap >> and readily available and if you avoid the brand that Outback uses in >> the Radian GSLC cabinets, they are relatively rugged. >> >> We will be trying this in any future install with multiple strings, >> although we avoid this if at all possible. >> >> William Miller >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] On Behalf Of John >> Blittersdorf >> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 6:24 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte Dilution vs Voltage >> >> Mac, >> I was about to ditto Ray with his more common than I would like >> scenario of battery death when I saw your mention of the 2nd string >> not connected. It is always nice to see >> a solution that is simple and should have been considered, but wasn't. >> The assumption with battery issues usually is that they are actually >> hooked up! I often thought that it would be worth the money to supply a >> cheap AC/DC clamp meter with every installation so that a phone >> consultation could quickly determine if the strings were unbalanced and >> what might be the reason. Bad cells and bad connection will usually >> show up in a current check and then a quick voltage check of each >> battery with a load on the system will show the culprit if a bad cell >> and corrosion present might find the bad connection. I use Interstate >> L16's most of the time and find that the life is typically 6 years. I >> used to call them a 7 to 10 year battery but kept racheting back the >> claim until I now call them a 5 to 7 year battery with more if properly >> maintained. I have seen 10 years but it is rare. >> >> John Blittersdorf >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> Tump at swnl.net >> >> www.SWNL.net >> >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >> Blair "TUMP" May >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From bill at berkssolar.com Thu Jul 19 10:44:38 2018 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:44:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling References: <409587256.7200323.1532011479189.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <409587256.7200323.1532011479189@mail.yahoo.com> About five years ago, we did a SolarEdge 3800 Swith a Magnum 4448 and an agm Deka battery bank. It's worked well when needed. I've attached a one-line pdf if you are interested. The hardest part for an old fart was the data reporting. We hired a teenager that spoke the language. As an aside, this month we have not been able to ac couple a new sunny boy 3.0-40 with an existing Magnum 4448. Neither side has much help to offer and Magnum is walking back from its years-earlier promoting of ac coupling.  If battery storage is going to be the key for our renewable/sustainable future, the inverter companies need to step up. Maybe the Skybox and/or the Midnite will debut in 2019. regards, bill  Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com From: Larry Brown To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 10:07 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed? I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter Any recommendations? Thanks Larry Larry Brown Sun Mountain 845-657-8096 Sunmountain at netstep.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: North one line(rev2).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 352659 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kevin at ecohousesolar.com Thu Jul 19 10:53:11 2018 From: kevin at ecohousesolar.com (Kevin Eigel) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 10:53:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling In-Reply-To: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> References: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> Message-ID: I am working with a similar situation. It looks like the Tesla Powerwall will work. Kevin Eigel Ecohouse Solar On Thu, Jul 19, 2018, 10:07 AM Larry Brown wrote: > Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple > with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed? > I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off > grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter > Any recommendations? > > Thanks > Larry > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > 845-657-8096 > Sunmountain at netstep.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 11:15:30 2018 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 08:15:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling In-Reply-To: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> References: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> Message-ID: Larry.....Outback Radian would work fine but you would need 2 of the 8kW inverters for your ~11kW GT inverter. Outback recommends a maximum 75% loading ratio when AC coupling. We have used a simple solid state relay controlled by the Aux Out of the Radian to turn off one leg of the SolarEdge or any other GT inverter essentially shutting off the GT inverter when a desired battery voltage is reached. As an aside, in earlier days when lead acid batteries where the main battery technology I didn't like this set up because it didn't allow multistage charging of the batteries leading to batteries only reaching approximately 80% SOC (bad for batteries) because there was no ability to taper charge (aside from frequency shift compatible inverters). But nowadays with Lithium batteries, which don't require multistage charging becoming more common this method of AC coupling is pretty attractive because the batteries don't care if they only reach a partial state of charge....Even though you can charge them more than 80% before kicking off the GT inverter. We have used this method successfully in addition to having DC coupling present in the same system as well. Let me know if you need a diagram. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 7:07 AM, Larry Brown wrote: > Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple > with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed? > I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off > grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter > Any recommendations? > > Thanks > Larry > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > 845-657-8096 > Sunmountain at netstep.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Thu Jul 19 12:15:17 2018 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:15:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling In-Reply-To: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> References: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> Message-ID: <1316214749.7252384.1532016917810@mail.yahoo.com> Larry--Forgot to add on the original post--you would need three Magnum 4448s to work w the 11.4 SolarEdge. Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com From: Larry Brown To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 10:07 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed? I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter Any recommendations? Thanks Larry Larry Brown Sun Mountain 845-657-8096 Sunmountain at netstep.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jul 19 12:40:35 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 10:40:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte Dilution vs Voltage In-Reply-To: <56682f1b143bf93ff659080ddad8fe11@mail.gmail.com> References: <0ddb3043-b429-0f1c-db9a-5d78e904ceb7@solarray.com> <56682f1b143bf93ff659080ddad8fe11@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <96d3c9fa-c4d0-6d69-3464-853d6b792477@solarray.com> I'm sure part of the problem is no load current circulation, but much of the problem can be seen with a clamp on meter while charging.  I've seen parallel strings pulling 10 amps on one string and 1 amp on the far end.  Not subtle at all, and very easy to understand why it would lead to unequal battery charging.  Let us know William what you find out with your extra shunts; we always appreciate your keen mind and desire to get to the root of the problem in a no nonsense manner.  I think resistance checks of the batteries and arranging the batteries into strings of equal resistance might help too, but yes, less parallel strings is better. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/18/18 7:33 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > I believe that circulating currents in multi-string battery > installations are a major cause of premature failure of such a > system.  I think it is important to monitor these currents.  Most > telling would be checking these currents in an at-rest scenario.  It > would be helpful to have a baseline at install and then check > periodically. > > Measuring these currents with any type of DC clamp-on meter can be > inaccurate at best.  In a conversation with Steve Higgins at a recent > trade show I came up with this idea that may have some merit:  If an > install has more than one string of batteries, install an > appropriately sized shunt in the negative lead of each string.  At any > later date you can apply any decent voltmeter with a millivolt scale > and check for battery string imbalance with some degree of accuracy. > Shunts are cheap and readily available and if you avoid the brand that > Outback uses in the Radian GSLC cabinets, they are relatively rugged. > > We will be trying this in any future install with multiple strings, > although we avoid this if at all possible. > > William Miller > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *John Blittersdorf > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 18, 2018 6:24 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte Dilution vs Voltage > > Mac, > >   I was about to ditto Ray with his more common than I would like > scenario of battery death when I saw your mention of the 2nd string > not connected. It is always nice to see > > a solution that is simple and should have been considered, but wasn't. > The assumption with battery issues usually is that they are actually > hooked up!  I often thought that it would be worth the money to supply > a cheap AC/DC clamp meter with every installation so that a phone > consultation could quickly determine if the strings were unbalanced > and what might be the reason. Bad cells and bad connection  will > usually show up in a current check and then a quick voltage check of > each battery with a load on the system will show the culprit if a bad > cell and corrosion present might find the bad connection.  I use > Interstate L16's most of the time and find that the life is typically > 6 years.  I used to call them a 7 to 10 year battery but kept > racheting back the claim until I now call them a 5 to 7 year battery > with more if properly maintained.  I have seen 10 years but it is rare. > > John Blittersdorf > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steve at surrette.com Thu Jul 19 17:55:38 2018 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:55:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte Dilution vs Voltage In-Reply-To: <96d3c9fa-c4d0-6d69-3464-853d6b792477@solarray.com> References: <0ddb3043-b429-0f1c-db9a-5d78e904ceb7@solarray.com> <56682f1b143bf93ff659080ddad8fe11@mail.gmail.com> <96d3c9fa-c4d0-6d69-3464-853d6b792477@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hey Wrenches! That Camera it a FLIR-One. https://www.amazon.com/FLIR-ONE-Thermal-Imager-Android/dp/B0 0W5PRY52/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1532009331&sr=8-5&keywords=flir+one+android I bought mine a couple of years ago... at the time they were $350.00... now the older models are cheaper... There is a Flir One Pro now that has some newer features... It plugs into my tablet and has an independent FLIR camera and overlays the flir image over the normal camera image. It has saved my bacon many times. Especially when it comes to checking connections, or individual battery issues. While a battery that has been run partially dry isn't the best thing to do for the battery, it's also not the absolute end of the world. When it goes dry the plates are exposed to air, it's going to take a while for those plates oxidize, or corrode... once they've oxidized, or corroded you've lost that capacity from the battery. Depending on how long they were dry also matters some manufactures envelope their plates, this also helps prevent from going totally dry... As those age you will slowly notice say 12-36 months depending on how long they were dry you will still lose capacity so eventually you'll have to replace the cell or bank depending on of course how bad the damage is.. Here are some pictures... I put them on Google Drive sorry my first email didn't go thru due to being too large. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1nYTRTQ8BJBJ6xlFnk0km9Gl7jQdCDtHY?usp=sharing Here is what we see when you do run them dry On the Pictures ending with 083113 and 083226... This is a picture of what the plates look like when you've run them dry, you can see the water line. The next picture (flir_20171115T045746) is a battery bank under charge you can see the second battery from the left is overall getting warmer than the rest of the batteries. If this was a shorted separator, or cell you'd see a hot spot in the battery, since the the heating is uniform throughout the battery, this battery getting hot due to an overall increased resistance in regards to the rest of the bank. This battery has developed a bit higher internal resistance (sulfation) and is more resistive to charge than the rest of the battery bank. You can also see some loose connections, it's fun to show that to the installer or customer after they tell you that "of course I tightened the connections"... When I commission a bank, or am involved in recovering a bank the first few charge cycles I'll watch these connections, and often you see these loosen up... Having the FLIR lets you see where your connections are not so good so you can clean them up. The picture (2015-04-30 Mfangano Island 020 infrared) is an example of a short internally. As for parallel strings, yes my personal opinion is no more than two parallel strings, I don't see why guys do 3 strings 6v L16 for 24 and 48 volt banks... Once you go with 12- 6 volt batteries (3 Parallel Strings) why not use 12 2v batteries? Same for the 48 volt systems... Once you get to 24 6v L16's.. You could have gone with 24 2v batteries and had a much more efficient charging system. If I do ever get involved with banks with 2 or more strings, I will generally recommend bus bars over cables and main positive/negative buses with each parallel string (Over 2) fused with a class T fuse block and a shunt on each string if you need to monitor current in each string. As mentioned earlier, watching this current often aids in troubleshooting lead acid battery problems quickly. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#UNIQUE_ID_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 9:40 AM, Ray wrote: > I'm sure part of the problem is no load current circulation, but much of > the problem can be seen with a clamp on meter while charging. I've seen > parallel strings pulling 10 amps on one string and 1 amp on the far end. > Not subtle at all, and very easy to understand why it would lead to unequal > battery charging. Let us know William what you find out with your extra > shunts; we always appreciate your keen mind and desire to get to the root > of the problem in a no nonsense manner. I think resistance checks of the > batteries and arranging the batteries into strings of equal resistance > might help too, but yes, less parallel strings is better. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/18/18 7:33 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > > > I believe that circulating currents in multi-string battery installations > are a major cause of premature failure of such a system. I think it is > important to monitor these currents. Most telling would be checking these > currents in an at-rest scenario. It would be helpful to have a baseline at > install and then check periodically. > > > > Measuring these currents with any type of DC clamp-on meter can be > inaccurate at best. In a conversation with Steve Higgins at a recent trade > show I came up with this idea that may have some merit: If an install has > more than one string of batteries, install an appropriately sized shunt in > the negative lead of each string. At any later date you can apply any > decent voltmeter with a millivolt scale and check for battery string > imbalance with some degree of accuracy. Shunts are cheap and readily > available and if you avoid the brand that Outback uses in the Radian GSLC > cabinets, they are relatively rugged. > > > > We will be trying this in any future install with multiple strings, > although we avoid this if at all possible. > > > > William Miller > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *John Blittersdorf > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 18, 2018 6:24 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte Dilution vs Voltage > > > > Mac, > > I was about to ditto Ray with his more common than I would like scenario > of battery death when I saw your mention of the 2nd string not connected. > It is always nice to see > > a solution that is simple and should have been considered, but wasn't. The > assumption with battery issues usually is that they are actually hooked > up! I often thought that it would be worth the money to supply a cheap > AC/DC clamp meter with every installation so that a phone consultation > could quickly determine if the strings were unbalanced and what might be > the reason. Bad cells and bad connection will usually show up in a > current check and then a quick voltage check of each battery with a load on > the system will show the culprit if a bad cell and corrosion present might > find the bad connection. I use Interstate L16's most of the time and find > that the life is typically 6 years. I used to call them a 7 to 10 year > battery but kept racheting back the claim until I now call them a 5 to 7 > year battery with more if properly maintained. I have seen 10 years but it > is rare. > > > > John Blittersdorf > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Thu Jul 19 18:17:02 2018 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 18:17:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling References: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> Message-ID: Larry Outback Radians work great. peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Brown" To: "RE-wrenches" Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 10:07 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling > Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple > with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed? > I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off > grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter > Any recommendations? > > Thanks > Larry > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > 845-657-8096 > Sunmountain at netstep.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 02:38:36 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 20:38:36 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling In-Reply-To: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> References: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> Message-ID: Larry I have had very good luck with Outback both with the FX and the newer Radian systems, have not tried this with the new "R" inverter system, we have used the contactors to reduce production once the batteries are full in the off gird application. Simple and strait forward and been good Jerry On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 4:07 AM, Larry Brown wrote: > Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple > with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed? > I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off > grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter > Any recommendations? > > Thanks > Larry > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > 845-657-8096 > Sunmountain at netstep.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Fri Jul 20 08:30:02 2018 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 07:30:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery "event" Message-ID: Since we are talking batteries... I had a scheduled checkup on an inherited stand alone system last Tuesday. On Monday night, the client called to tell me that a battery blew up in his face when he was adding water (no doubt to prevent being scolded by me regarding fluid level maintenance). He assures me that there was no metal in the vicinity and, indeed, I saw no evidence of a short on the terminals. Judging by the rest of the pack, it's likely that the plates were exposed and he was adding fluid with hard solar charging in progress. Fortunately he only suffered an injured finger and a ringing in his ears. Best guesses at the cause of the explosion? Picture attached. Thanks, Kris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_20180720_063612.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 956355 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sunmountain at netstep.net Fri Jul 20 10:14:34 2018 From: sunmountain at netstep.net (Larry Brown) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:14:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling In-Reply-To: References: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> Message-ID: <8F336DA4-ECDB-40CC-A37C-1CDE8D0280C8@netstep.net> Kirpal Thanks for the recommendations If you have a diagram that would be most helpful and generous What Lithium Battery are you using with this configuration? Much Appreciated Larry Larry Brown Sun Mountain 845-657-8096 Sunmountain at netstep.net On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:15 AM, Kirpal wrote: Larry.....Outback Radian would work fine but you would need 2 of the 8kW inverters for your ~11kW GT inverter. Outback recommends a maximum 75% loading ratio when AC coupling. We have used a simple solid state relay controlled by the Aux Out of the Radian to turn off one leg of the SolarEdge or any other GT inverter essentially shutting off the GT inverter when a desired battery voltage is reached. As an aside, in earlier days when lead acid batteries where the main battery technology I didn't like this set up because it didn't allow multistage charging of the batteries leading to batteries only reaching approximately 80% SOC (bad for batteries) because there was no ability to taper charge (aside from frequency shift compatible inverters). But nowadays with Lithium batteries, which don't require multistage charging becoming more common this method of AC coupling is pretty attractive because the batteries don't care if they only reach a partial state of charge....Even though you can charge them more than 80% before kicking off the GT inverter. We have used this method successfully in addition to having DC coupling present in the same system as well. Let me know if you need a diagram. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 7:07 AM, Larry Brown > wrote: Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed? I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter Any recommendations? Thanks Larry Larry Brown Sun Mountain 845-657-8096 Sunmountain at netstep.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jul 20 09:56:24 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 06:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery "event" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8cc774fac7b8e47d0f2e14121dc111f1.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> Kris, It would be nice to see a picture of the whole battery bank. I would guess a spark/arc from bad battery wiring practice/installation during charging. Just the hint that he was watering to avoid you seeing the bad maintenance on his part would make me walk. I always am extremely leery of "inherited" clients. I like to teach mine to to this right and alway have a copy of the check for the battery near the bank. A picture of a fire truck with lights on might help this guy... Good Luck Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > Since we are talking batteries... I had a scheduled checkup on an > inherited > stand alone system last Tuesday. On Monday night, the client called to > tell me that a battery blew up in his face when he was adding water (no > doubt to prevent being scolded by me regarding fluid level maintenance). > He assures me that there was no metal in the vicinity and, indeed, I saw > no > evidence of a short on the terminals. Judging by the rest of the pack, > it's likely that the plates were exposed and he was adding fluid with hard > solar charging in progress. Fortunately he only suffered an injured > finger > and a ringing in his ears. > > Best guesses at the cause of the explosion? > > Picture attached. > > Thanks, > Kris > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 11:00:32 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 05:00:32 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery "event" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kris the internal plates are soldered together and can fail open and have been know to make a spark as they make contact again, you can see this in the aftermath by looking where all the plates contact the bridge inside the battery, when adding the water resulting in the cooling of the battery likely triggered the event. Jerry On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 2:30 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Since we are talking batteries... I had a scheduled checkup on an > inherited stand alone system last Tuesday. On Monday night, the client > called to tell me that a battery blew up in his face when he was adding > water (no doubt to prevent being scolded by me regarding fluid level > maintenance). He assures me that there was no metal in the vicinity and, > indeed, I saw no evidence of a short on the terminals. Judging by the rest > of the pack, it's likely that the plates were exposed and he was adding > fluid with hard solar charging in progress. Fortunately he only suffered > an injured finger and a ringing in his ears. > > Best guesses at the cause of the explosion? > > Picture attached. > > Thanks, > Kris > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Jul 20 11:27:33 2018 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:27:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery "event" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kris, I'm happy that your client is "okay", this is truly a dangerous situation. The plates are compressed together with a very thin separator between them. If the tops of the plates were exposed they could spark thru the separator, and ignite hydrogen gas leaving the battery. This with the compression inside the battery could cause the top to blow off. Most commonly the batteries are installed under the inverters or in very close proximity, usually in a small room with no ventilation. When the inverter transfer relay switches it sparks. This is most often the cause of this. That spark ignites they hydrogen, and just like gun power it traces back to the source (Inside the battery) and ignites... Since the vent caps are on there is compression and it blows the top(s) When ever the battery is on charge and when the voltage of the battery is above 2.2vpc or 6.6volts there is hydrogen gas being generated. You should never do any maintenance to your bank with the chargers enabled... when I'm working on a bank I always open up any doors and windows turn on any ventilation to ensure that I don't experience an ignition event. Ignition events are not any fun, and often require a change of underpants... Even though you can barley see just the top of the cell... It' looks a bit "gooey" This is usually an indication of a lot of heat. I see the temp sensor on the battery post, Most battery manufactures would prefer the temp sensor to be mounted on the side of the battery, we ask this because while charging in this environment the top of the battery is around 15 to 20F cooler than the side of the battery. This is going to result in a battery that is being overcharged due to excessive heat The sensors from Schneider, Magnum and Morningstar can be taped to the side of the battery and will still accurately read temperatures This is much better than attaching to the post and not getting an accurate reading. Any temp sensor that you mount to the side of the battery should be about 1/2 way down the battery below plate level. If it's got the sticky tape, make sure when you attach it you run some electrical tape (Duct Tape) all the way around the battery to secure it to the side of the battery. If you depend on the sticky tape to secure it, you will find that the sensor falls off the battery about 4-6 months later! Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 8:00 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Kris > the internal plates are soldered together and can fail open and have been > know to make a spark as they make contact again, you can see this in the > aftermath by looking where all the plates contact the bridge inside the > battery, when adding the water resulting in the cooling of the battery > likely triggered the event. > Jerry > > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 2:30 AM, Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > >> Since we are talking batteries... I had a scheduled checkup on an >> inherited stand alone system last Tuesday. On Monday night, the client >> called to tell me that a battery blew up in his face when he was adding >> water (no doubt to prevent being scolded by me regarding fluid level >> maintenance). He assures me that there was no metal in the vicinity and, >> indeed, I saw no evidence of a short on the terminals. Judging by the rest >> of the pack, it's likely that the plates were exposed and he was adding >> fluid with hard solar charging in progress. Fortunately he only suffered >> an injured finger and a ringing in his ears. >> >> Best guesses at the cause of the explosion? >> >> Picture attached. >> >> Thanks, >> Kris >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Mon Jul 23 01:52:47 2018 From: solar1online at charter.net (solar1online at charter.net) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 00:52:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does anyone have an SMA 2100TL or 2500 L sitting around? Message-ID: Does anyone have an SMA 2100TL or 2500 L sitting around that they'd sell? Please contact me off-list: Bill LoeschSolar 1314 631 1094solar1online at charter.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Mon Jul 23 09:56:01 2018 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 09:56:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings Message-ID: Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very poorly. They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired into 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already have the equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It is for a grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the time. I assume that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any harm in using them and then just getting new batteries once they fail? Stringing is shown in the attached picture. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Senior Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 www.taitem.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_4367.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 271055 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 10:24:07 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 07:24:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave Its a good idea to think of batteries the same way you do PV Modules. Any time you have more then two strings they get individual fuse protection, this is also good for diagnoses purpuses too. The current installation has no protection, safety and l would change it. As far as operation goes it works but thats not a exceptable reason to leave it that way is. Jerry On Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 6:56 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... > > I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very > poorly. > They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired into > 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already have > the > equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It is > for a > grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the time. > I assume > that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any harm > in using them > and then just getting new batteries once they fail? > > Stringing is shown in the attached picture. > Cheers, > Dave > > > *--* > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > *Senior Engineer* > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 > Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 > www.taitem.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Mon Jul 23 11:24:45 2018 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 08:24:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would at least rewire them like this... [image: image.png] Remember all the parallel strings take offs must be the same size/length, otherwise you are going to exacerbate imbalance issues. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 7:24 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Dave > Its a good idea to think of batteries the same way you do PV Modules. Any > time you have more then two strings they get individual fuse protection, > this is also good for diagnoses purpuses too. > The current installation has no protection, safety and l would change it. > As far as operation goes it works but thats not a exceptable reason to > leave it that way is. > Jerry > > > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 6:56 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... >> >> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very >> poorly. >> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired >> into >> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already >> have the >> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It is >> for a >> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the >> time. I assume >> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any harm >> in using them >> and then just getting new batteries once they fail? >> >> Stringing is shown in the attached picture. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> >> *--* >> >> >> *Dave Tedeyan* >> *Senior Engineer* >> >> *Taitem Engineering, PC* >> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >> www.taitem.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 54348 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Jul 23 12:26:32 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:26:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And it's not a bad idea to add a shunt in each string for trouble shooting down the road. Christopher On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: > I would at least rewire them like this... > > [image: image.png] > Remember all the parallel strings take offs must be the same size/length, > otherwise you are going to exacerbate imbalance issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 7:24 AM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Dave >> Its a good idea to think of batteries the same way you do PV Modules. >> Any time you have more then two strings they get individual fuse >> protection, this is also good for diagnoses purpuses too. >> The current installation has no protection, safety and l would change it. >> As far as operation goes it works but thats not a exceptable reason to >> leave it that way is. >> Jerry >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 6:56 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >>> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... >>> >>> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very >>> poorly. >>> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired >>> into >>> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already >>> have the >>> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It is >>> for a >>> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the >>> time. I assume >>> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any >>> harm in using them >>> and then just getting new batteries once they fail? >>> >>> Stringing is shown in the attached picture. >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> *--* >>> >>> >>> *Dave Tedeyan* >>> *Senior Engineer* >>> >>> *Taitem Engineering, PC* >>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >>> www.taitem.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >>> org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 54348 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jul 23 12:33:44 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (offgridsolar at sti.net) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 09:33:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There will be troubleshooting with this design. Probably easier to use it up and redesign. If my name was on the inheritance, I would do it now or at the minimum fuse the strings. On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:26:32 -0400, Chris Schaefer wrote: And it's not a bad idea to add a shunt in each string for trouble shooting down the road. Christopher On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: I would at least rewire them like this... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [3] ------------------------- CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------- On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 7:24 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: Dave Its a good idea to think of batteries the same way you do PV Modules. Any time you have more then two strings they get individual fuse protection, this is also good for diagnoses purpuses too. The current installation has no protection, safety and l would change it. As far as operation goes it works but thats not a exceptable reason to leave it that way is. Jerry On Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 6:56 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very poorly. They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired into 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already have the equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It is for a grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the time. I assume that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any harm in using them and then just getting new batteries once they fail? Stringing is shown in the attached picture. Cheers, Dave -- Dave Tedeyan SENIOR ENGINEER TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 www.taitem.com [11] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [19] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [21] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [22] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [23] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [24] List rules color: #1f497d;">Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [28] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [29]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Links: ------ [1] mailto:steve at surrette.com [2] http://www.rollsbattery.com [3] mailto:steve at surrette.com [4] http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery [5] http://www.twitter.com/RollsBattery [6] https://www.youtube.com/user/RollsBattery [7] https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering [8] http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery [9] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [10] mailto:dtedeyan at taitem.com [11] http://www.taitem.com/ [12] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [20] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [21] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [22] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [23] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [24] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [25] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [26] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [27] http://webmail.sti.net/http:www.solarandwindfx.com [28] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [29] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 54348 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jul 23 14:08:40 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:08:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think its worth all that rewiring now to preserve an imperfect battery design that's probably only going to last a few more years anyway.  Just use those batteries up, and come in with a new single or double string of larger batteries. I know all of us wrenches would like to see amp circulation between strings with some scientific accuracy, but is that in the customer's best interest? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/23/18 10:33 AM, offgridsolar at sti.net wrote: > > There will be troubleshooting with this design. Probably easier to use > it up and redesign. If my name was on the inheritance, > > I would do it now or at the minimum fuse the strings. > > On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:26:32 -0400, Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> And it's not a bad idea to add a shunt in each string for trouble >> shooting down the road. >> Christopher >> >> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Steve Higgins > > wrote: >> >> I would at least rewire them like this... >> image.png >> Remember all the parallel strings take offs must be the same >> size/length, otherwise you are going to exacerbate imbalance issues. >> >> >> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager >> t+1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 >> f+1.902.597.8447 esteve at surrette.com >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended >> only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary >> and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution >> or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this >> information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, >> please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and >> all copies. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 7:24 AM Jerry Shafer >> > wrote: >> >> Dave >>  Its a good idea to think of batteries the same way you do PV >> Modules. Any time you have more then two strings they get >> individual fuse protection, this is also good for diagnoses >> purpuses too. >> The current installation has no protection, safety and l >> would change it. >> As far as operation goes it works but thats not a exceptable >> reason to leave it that way is. >> Jerry >> >> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 6:56 AM Dave Tedeyan >> > wrote: >> >> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... >> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and >> installed very poorly. >> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM >> batteries wired into >> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since >> they already have the >> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this >> equipment? It is for a >> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float >> most of the time. I assume >> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but >> is there any harm in using them >> and then just getting new batteries once they fail? >> Stringing is shown in the attached picture. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> *--* >> ** >> *Dave Tedeyan >> * >> *Senior Engineer* >> *Taitem Engineering, PC* >> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >> www.taitem.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer's >> >> /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: >> chris at solarandwindfx.com / >> >> / >> / >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 54348 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom at wagonmaker.com Mon Jul 23 14:16:13 2018 From: tom at wagonmaker.com (tom at wagonmaker.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 08:16:13 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a buss bar setup. Remember it isn't just resistance differences between batteries but resistance difference between cells as well. In a setup like the existing one the resistance differences can really add up and if one battery fails the entire system will be offline. Running each string to a positive and negative common buss bar means you can remove individual strings without disrupting the entire storage and the system can continue operating. Also, it means the only resistance issues of substance are within individual series pairs not the entire interconnected bank. I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common buss and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had. That was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but for longevity and stability it is the best bet. Tom On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... > > I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very > poorly. > They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired > into > 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already > have the > equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It > is for a > grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the > time. I assume > that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any > harm in using them > and then just getting new batteries once they fail? > > Stringing is shown in the attached picture. > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > Dave Tedeyan > > SENIOR ENGINEER > > TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC > 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 > Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 > www.taitem.com [1] > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://www.taitem.com/ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Jul 23 14:28:29 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 14:28:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple battery string set ups? Christopher On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM, wrote: > Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a buss > bar setup. Remember it isn't just resistance differences between batteries > but resistance difference between cells as well. In a setup like the > existing one the resistance differences can really add up and if one > battery fails the entire system will be offline. Running each string to a > positive and negative common buss bar means you can remove individual > strings without disrupting the entire storage and the system can continue > operating. Also, it means the only resistance issues of substance are > within individual series pairs not the entire interconnected bank. > > I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common buss and > it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had. That was years > ago and now it would require fusing each string but for longevity and > stability it is the best bet. > > Tom > > On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... >> >> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very >> poorly. >> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired >> into >> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already >> have the >> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It >> is for a >> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the >> time. I assume >> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any >> harm in using them >> and then just getting new batteries once they fail? >> >> Stringing is shown in the attached picture. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> Dave Tedeyan >> >> SENIOR ENGINEER >> >> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC >> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >> www.taitem.com [1] >> >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] http://www.taitem.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or >> g/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at wagonmaker.com Mon Jul 23 15:26:16 2018 From: tom at wagonmaker.com (Tom at wagonmaker) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 09:26:16 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This was 22 years ago and I got my buss bars from a battery distributor who did large backup installations for telco systems. He was horrified that we in the business were paralleling series strings together in a daisy chain. Said it was the best way to give batteries an early death. I had a source but last time I posted it I was told it was no longer in business. But I would think anyone who installs systems for large battery backups, either for wind systems using containers full of batteries or telco backup power, would have access to a good source. I preferred tinned copper bars. Using buss bars allows for creating banks of lots of batteries which allows for redundancy. I’ve never understood why you would want to put all your eggs in one or two baskets, so to speak, by paralleling two series strings of large batteries. One cell in one battery failing kills half the storage right off the bat and the system has to be taken offline just to remove the defective string. With a buss bar there is no interruption of service, batteries can be swapped out easily while the system hums along. My AGMs were solid for years and very well balanced. Tom From: Chris Schaefer Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 8:28 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple battery string set ups? Christopher On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM, wrote: Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a buss bar setup. Remember it isn't just resistance differences between batteries but resistance difference between cells as well. In a setup like the existing one the resistance differences can really add up and if one battery fails the entire system will be offline. Running each string to a positive and negative common buss bar means you can remove individual strings without disrupting the entire storage and the system can continue operating. Also, it means the only resistance issues of substance are within individual series pairs not the entire interconnected bank. I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common buss and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had. That was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but for longevity and stability it is the best bet. Tom On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very poorly. They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired into 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already have the equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It is for a grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the time. I assume that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any harm in using them and then just getting new batteries once they fail? Stringing is shown in the attached picture. Cheers, Dave -- Dave Tedeyan SENIOR ENGINEER TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 www.taitem.com [1] Links: ------ [1] http://www.taitem.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jul 23 17:24:38 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 14:24:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Storm. https://stormpowercomponents.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIoa6cg5O23AIVGMRkCh2CFwYIEAAYASAAEgJsDfD_BwE > On Jul 23, 2018, at 11:28 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > > What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple battery string set ups? > > Christopher > >> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM, wrote: >> Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a buss bar setup. Remember it isn't just resistance differences between batteries but resistance difference between cells as well. In a setup like the existing one the resistance differences can really add up and if one battery fails the entire system will be offline. Running each string to a positive and negative common buss bar means you can remove individual strings without disrupting the entire storage and the system can continue operating. Also, it means the only resistance issues of substance are within individual series pairs not the entire interconnected bank. >> >> I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common buss and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had. That was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but for longevity and stability it is the best bet. >> >> Tom >> >>> On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... >>> >>> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very >>> poorly. >>> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired >>> into >>> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already >>> have the >>> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It >>> is for a >>> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the >>> time. I assume >>> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any >>> harm in using them >>> and then just getting new batteries once they fail? >>> >>> Stringing is shown in the attached picture. >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Dave Tedeyan >>> >>> SENIOR ENGINEER >>> >>> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC >>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >>> www.taitem.com [1] >>> >>> Links: >>> ------ >>> [1] http://www.taitem.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > -- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27055 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reosolar at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 19:28:46 2018 From: reosolar at gmail.com (Aaron Mandelkorn) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 17:28:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off grid Message-ID: What do you say to the person who wants "200 amp" electrical service from their off grid system. I generally use Schneider xw+ inverters. Is it even possible to put 4 or 6 of them together? How many radians can be put together? I'm curious to know how others would proceed or is this to unreasonable to spend my time on. Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Mon Jul 23 19:35:05 2018 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 19:35:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off grid References: Message-ID: Aaron Can use up to 8 radians "stacked " through their hub. One mate should control all of them. The Radians are solid and deliver a very good value. thx peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Mandelkorn To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 7:28 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off grid What do you say to the person who wants "200 amp" electrical service from their off grid system. I generally use Schneider xw+ inverters. Is it even possible to put 4 or 6 of them together? How many radians can be put together? I'm curious to know how others would proceed or is this to unreasonable to spend my time on. Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Jul 23 20:29:13 2018 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 17:29:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aaron, In thirty years my largest off grid residence (2005 install) had four Outback VFX3648s, with the inner two in the Quad Stack included primarily as slave battery chargers. Principle One still holds, even with today’s numerous exceptions: electricity is a high quality form of energy, best suited to specific uses - lighting, electronics, drive power. Shift (most) bulk uses of electricity to other forms of energy. I wouldn’t spend my unbilled hours designing a system to meet an arbitrary 200A service. Hope this helps, Allan Sindelar, Sindelar Solar > On Jul 23, 2018, at 4:35 PM, Peter Giroux wrote: > > Aaron > > Can use up to 8 radians "stacked " through their hub. One mate should control all of them. The Radians are solid and deliver a very good value. > > thx > peter > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Aaron Mandelkorn > To: RE-wrenches > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 7:28 PM > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off grid > > What do you say to the person who wants "200 amp" electrical service from their off grid system. I generally use Schneider xw+ inverters. Is it even possible to put 4 or 6 of them together? How many radians can be put together? I'm curious to know how others would proceed or is this to unreasonable to spend my time on. > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jul 23 19:58:31 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (offgridsolar at sti.net) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:58:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d7b76e10d162c65068c3e9b82013239@127.0.0.1> Definitely can stack 6 XW+ 6848's. Plenty of info on the Schneider site. You can PM me for info on this. --Dave On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 17:28:46 -0600, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: What do you say to the person who wants "200 amp" electrical service from their off grid system. I generally use Schneider xw+ inverters. Is it even possible to put 4 or 6 of them together? How many radians can be put together? I'm curious to know how others would proceed or is this to unreasonable to spend my time on. Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com [1] Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com [2] 970-596-3744 Links: ------ [1] http://www.reosolar.com [2] http://www.offgridnow.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon Jul 23 19:30:19 2018 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 18:30:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02f901d422dd$1f1b0bd0$5d512370$@solarcentex.com> 4 Outback Radian 8048s and 1 (or 2) RE2700 batteries. Howard “Scot” Arey 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Aaron Mandelkorn Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 6:29 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off grid What do you say to the person who wants "200 amp" electrical service from their off grid system. I generally use Schneider xw+ inverters. Is it even possible to put 4 or 6 of them together? How many radians can be put together? I'm curious to know how others would proceed or is this to unreasonable to spend my time on. Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 48462 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Jul 23 20:50:37 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 20:50:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00e501d422e8$576d87a0$064896e0$@glbcc.com> Hi Christopher, I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate dimensions for the current I am expecting. I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size fasteners and use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the exposed bar. Hope this helps. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple battery string set ups? Christopher On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM, > wrote: Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a buss bar setup. Remember it isn't just resistance differences between batteries but resistance difference between cells as well. In a setup like the existing one the resistance differences can really add up and if one battery fails the entire system will be offline. Running each string to a positive and negative common buss bar means you can remove individual strings without disrupting the entire storage and the system can continue operating. Also, it means the only resistance issues of substance are within individual series pairs not the entire interconnected bank. I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common buss and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had. That was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but for longevity and stability it is the best bet. Tom On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very poorly. They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired into 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already have the equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It is for a grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the time. I assume that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any harm in using them and then just getting new batteries once they fail? Stringing is shown in the attached picture. Cheers, Dave -- Dave Tedeyan SENIOR ENGINEER TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 www.taitem.com [1] Links: ------ [1] http://www.taitem.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jul 23 22:48:28 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 20:48:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13299efb-46db-8bf5-0a06-5b946a131af2@solarray.com> I would second Allan's comments; I've had huge wastes of time with folks that had no idea what they needed.  I think the most important information to share with the customer at this time, is that the code does not require a stand alone inverter system to meet the capacity calculated for the service.  The exemption has now moved from article 690, so it took me a little time to find it.  Please read the new 710.15(A) .  It defines that the inverter(s) only need to be able to meet the single largest load. So Joe Residential Electrician may be required to run a 400 amp load panel, but theoretically you could feed that with a single 4 kW inverter, as long as it could start the well pump, for instance. You really want to start right away trying to identify and reduce loads.  I regularly coordinate with the plumber on the well pump and circulator pumps, work with the appliance supplier to make sure everything is reasonable and Energy Star rated, and then make sure all lighting is LED, and there are no crazy loads like hot tubs, 3 ton Air Conditioners, or electric heating elements, hot plates, etc. Ground source heat pumps are another no no,  people think they are really efficient, but that's because the energy needed to run the pumps is not included in the calculations.  The pumps can take up to 2000 watts of power for many hours/ day. I charge a consulting fee; if they don't want to spend a few hundred working out a load analysis and overall electrical system design, they're probably not going to be good customers later. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/23/18 6:29 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Aaron, > In thirty years my largest off grid residence (2005 install) had four > Outback VFX3648s, with the inner two in the Quad Stack included > primarily as slave battery chargers. Principle One still holds, even > with today’s numerous exceptions: electricity is a high quality form > of energy, best suited to specific uses - lighting, electronics, drive > power. Shift (most) bulk uses of electricity to other forms of energy. > I wouldn’t spend my unbilled hours designing a system to meet an > arbitrary 200A service. > Hope this helps, > Allan Sindelar, Sindelar Solar > > On Jul 23, 2018, at 4:35 PM, Peter Giroux > wrote: > >> Aaron >>   Can use up to 8 radians "stacked " through their hub. One mate >> should control all of them. The Radians are solid and deliver a >> very good value. >> thx >> peter >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Aaron Mandelkorn >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Monday, July 23, 2018 7:28 PM >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Large off grid >> >> What do you say to the person who wants "200 amp" electrical >> service from their off grid system.  I generally use Schneider >> xw+ inverters.  Is it even possible to put 4 or 6 of them >> together? How many radians can be put together? I'm curious to >> know how others would proceed or is this to unreasonable to spend >> my time on. >> >> Aaron Mandelkorn >> President / Founder >> Renewable Energy Outfitters >> www.reosolar.com >> Off Grid Depot >> www.offgridnow.com >> 970-596-3744 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Jul 23 23:39:34 2018 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 03:39:34 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8bcbef0484ca4b41892e1bd167827baf@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hi Aaron, Echoing some comments already, what I do with these queries: - Qualify their power needs. Is this an arbitrary 200A as stipulated by the (old) NEC square footage rules? Or is this real actual load? Needs to have some load calculations and qualification of their loads. This can usually be determined in a short phone call ie are they using electricity for any heating purposes. - During this call I gauge customer's enthusiasm for being off-grid. Customers that embrace the idea I find are easier than ones that consider off-grid a nuisance, as the latter will generally never be happy with anything other than unlimited power grid. - Sometimes there are real customers with real big power needs and a budget to support it. I'd say maybe 10% of the time. The rest of the inquires with a bit of planning can get them into a more modest 10 or so kW system and it runs everything with power to spare. Lots of options for larger systems - XW, SMA, Radian. I am finishing up a 400A 3 Phase SMA installation presently. Big power is definitely possible. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Mandelkorn Sent: July-23-18 4:29 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off grid What do you say to the person who wants "200 amp" electrical service from their off grid system. I generally use Schneider xw+ inverters. Is it even possible to put 4 or 6 of them together? How many radians can be put together? I'm curious to know how others would proceed or is this to unreasonable to spend my time on. Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Jul 24 00:22:31 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 21:22:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29757234-55b4-380b-7f71-4bcb35649166@psln.com> Do they know what they are asking for?  I'm/sure/ they have filled out a load sheet....?  Don't waste your time until they have carefully and thoughtfully listed ALL their loads.  I had someone sure they were going to be off-grid, had an ENORMOUS list of loads including charging 2 Teslas.  Next thing you know (after the estimate), the conduit was buried for the grid. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 7/23/2018 4:28 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: > What do you say to the person who wants "200 amp" electrical service > from their off grid system.  I generally use Schneider xw+ inverters.  > Is it even possible to put 4 or 6 of them together? How many radians > can be put together? I'm curious to know how others would proceed or > is this to unreasonable to spend my time on. > > Aaron Mandelkorn > President / Founder > Renewable Energy Outfitters > www.reosolar.com > Off Grid Depot > www.offgridnow.com > 970-596-3744 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue Jul 24 09:40:10 2018 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 09:40:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: <00e501d422e8$576d87a0$064896e0$@glbcc.com> References: <00e501d422e8$576d87a0$064896e0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Thank you all for the ideas and suggestions. This person in particular had #4 wire for the battery connections, so they are all getting replaced with anyway. So it seems like rewiring to a busbar with fuses will be the way to go. And although not ideal to have so many strings, this will be more cost effective than just getting a whole new battery bank right off the bat when they have 10 batteries that have essentially never been used. Cheers, Dave *--* *Dave Tedeyan* *Senior Engineer* *Taitem Engineering, PC* 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 www.taitem.com On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > Hi Christopher, > > > > I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate dimensions > for the current I am expecting. > > I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size fasteners > and use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the exposed bar. > > > > Hope this helps. > > -Glenn > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer > *Sent:* Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings > > > > What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple battery > string set ups? > > > > Christopher > > > > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM, wrote: > > Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a buss > bar setup. Remember it isn't just resistance differences between batteries > but resistance difference between cells as well. In a setup like the > existing one the resistance differences can really add up and if one > battery fails the entire system will be offline. Running each string to a > positive and negative common buss bar means you can remove individual > strings without disrupting the entire storage and the system can continue > operating. Also, it means the only resistance issues of substance are > within individual series pairs not the entire interconnected bank. > > I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common buss and > it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had. That was years > ago and now it would require fusing each string but for longevity and > stability it is the best bet. > > Tom > > On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... > > I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very > poorly. > They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired > into > 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already > have the > equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It > is for a > grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the > time. I assume > that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any > harm in using them > and then just getting new batteries once they fail? > > Stringing is shown in the attached picture. > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > Dave Tedeyan > > SENIOR ENGINEER > > TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC > 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 > Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 > www.taitem.com [1] > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://www.taitem.com/ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 09:57:54 2018 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 09:57:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: References: <00e501d422e8$576d87a0$064896e0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <5599C26E-531B-455B-ABA1-7FD5163914D6@gmail.com> Number 4 wire is definitely a problem if it’s anywhere near normal battery voltage And if the batteries have essentially never been used you gotta wonder if they’re going to be any good anyway? Or did I miss something ? Bob Ellison > On Jul 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Thank you all for the ideas and suggestions. This person in particular had #4 wire for the battery connections, > so they are all getting replaced with anyway. So it seems like rewiring to a busbar with fuses will be the way to > go. And although not ideal to have so many strings, this will be more cost effective than just getting a whole new > battery bank right off the bat when they have 10 batteries that have essentially never been used. > > Cheers, > Dave > > > > > -- > > Dave Tedeyan > Senior Engineer > > Taitem Engineering, PC > 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 > Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 > www.taitem.com > >> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: >> Hi Christopher, >> >> >> >> I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate dimensions for the current I am expecting. >> >> I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size fasteners and use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the exposed bar. >> >> >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> -Glenn >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer >> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings >> >> >> >> What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple battery string set ups? >> >> >> >> Christopher >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM, wrote: >> >> Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a buss bar setup. Remember it isn't just resistance differences between batteries but resistance difference between cells as well. In a setup like the existing one the resistance differences can really add up and if one battery fails the entire system will be offline. Running each string to a positive and negative common buss bar means you can remove individual strings without disrupting the entire storage and the system can continue operating. Also, it means the only resistance issues of substance are within individual series pairs not the entire interconnected bank. >> >> I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common buss and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had. That was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but for longevity and stability it is the best bet. >> >> Tom >> >> On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... >> >> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very >> poorly. >> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired >> into >> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already >> have the >> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It >> is for a >> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the >> time. I assume >> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any >> harm in using them >> and then just getting new batteries once they fail? >> >> Stringing is shown in the attached picture. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> Dave Tedeyan >> >> SENIOR ENGINEER >> >> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC >> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >> www.taitem.com [1] >> >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] http://www.taitem.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Jul 24 11:24:06 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 09:24:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silly off grid Message-ID: <004701d42362$5d608200$18218600$@solarwork.com> Q1 – What are they wanting to power? Q2 – Have they completed an Energy Load Evaluation? If not, run. Q3 – Is this a rational & appropriate client? Q4 – How much time do you have to baby sit this client? Q5 – Have they ever stayed or lived in an offgrid house? Q6 – What are their expectations from this system? Q7 – How deep is their bank account? I noticed the 970 area code – If they are growing weed suggest a green house. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Peter Giroux Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 5:35 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Large off grid Aaron Can use up to 8 radians "stacked " through their hub. One mate should control all of them. The Radians are solid and deliver a very good value. thx peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Mandelkorn To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 7:28 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large off grid What do you say to the person who wants "200 amp" electrical service from their off grid system. I generally use Schneider xw+ inverters. Is it even possible to put 4 or 6 of them together? How many radians can be put together? I'm curious to know how others would proceed or is this to unreasonable to spend my time on. Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Jul 24 14:57:12 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:57:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silly off grid In-Reply-To: <004701d42362$5d608200$18218600$@solarwork.com> References: <004701d42362$5d608200$18218600$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <6019ebbf-13a6-9345-a7fd-428ef691f2c5@solarray.com> Oh boy, do I get a bunch of calls for folks wanting to take a 24/7 grow operation off grid.  Dana nailed it: Green house.  Even with LED grow lights the numbers are just insane.  Every time I get a call like this now, I immediately ask for a design fee. They usually are not to be heard from again.  If they're not serious, why should we have to do a serious design for free? Plus why would they want to do that off grid, when there are plenty of legit grow operations on grid for much lower electric costs?  It always struck me as Fishy.   On the other hand, grid tie on the roof of a legit grow operation,  that makes much more sense. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/24/18 9:24 AM, Dana wrote: > > I noticed the 970 area code – If they are growing weed suggest a green > house. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.com* > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Tue Jul 24 19:52:08 2018 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 16:52:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silly off grid In-Reply-To: <6019ebbf-13a6-9345-a7fd-428ef691f2c5@solarray.com> References: <004701d42362$5d608200$18218600$@solarwork.com> <6019ebbf-13a6-9345-a7fd-428ef691f2c5@solarray.com> Message-ID: <22db193a-1f7a-9ae0-47b0-4c181c149dee@berkeleysolar.com> Please let the list know when you get your first request for off-grid Bitcoin mining.  :-) On 7/24/2018 11:57 AM, Ray wrote: > > Oh boy, do I get a bunch of calls for folks wanting to take a 24/7 > grow operation off grid.  Dana nailed it: Green house. Even with LED > grow lights the numbers are just insane.  Every time I get a call like > this now, I immediately ask for a design fee.  They usually are not to > be heard from again.  If they're not serious, why should we have to do > a serious design for free? > > Plus why would they want to do that off grid, when there are plenty of > legit grow operations on grid for much lower electric costs?  It > always struck me as Fishy.   On the other hand, grid tie on the roof > of a legit grow operation,  that makes much more sense. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 From tump at swnl.net Wed Jul 25 06:39:23 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 06:39:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: References: <00e501d422e8$576d87a0$064896e0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Perhaps suggesting the correct amp Hr battery bank would eliminate the need for buss bar. 2 volt EX1400 1K amp hour batteries work very well good warrantee. all the fusing & interconnects would be eliminated. MORE AHs = less interconnects, always the correct way to go! > On Jul 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Thank you all for the ideas and suggestions. This person in particular had #4 wire for the battery connections, > so they are all getting replaced with anyway. So it seems like rewiring to a busbar with fuses will be the way to > go. And although not ideal to have so many strings, this will be more cost effective than just getting a whole new > battery bank right off the bat when they have 10 batteries that have essentially never been used. > > Cheers, > Dave > > > > > -- > > Dave Tedeyan > Senior Engineer > > Taitem Engineering, PC > 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 > Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 <> > www.taitem.com > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Glenn Burt > wrote: > Hi Christopher, > > > > I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate dimensions for the current I am expecting. > > I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size fasteners and use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the exposed bar. > > > > Hope this helps. > > -Glenn > > > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings > > > > What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple battery string set ups? > > > > Christopher > > > > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM, > wrote: > > Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a buss bar setup. Remember it isn't just resistance differences between batteries but resistance difference between cells as well. In a setup like the existing one the resistance differences can really add up and if one battery fails the entire system will be offline. Running each string to a positive and negative common buss bar means you can remove individual strings without disrupting the entire storage and the system can continue operating. Also, it means the only resistance issues of substance are within individual series pairs not the entire interconnected bank. > > I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common buss and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had. That was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but for longevity and stability it is the best bet. > > Tom > > On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... > > I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very > poorly. > They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired > into > 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already > have the > equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It > is for a > grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the > time. I assume > that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any > harm in using them > and then just getting new batteries once they fail? > > Stringing is shown in the attached picture. > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > Dave Tedeyan > > SENIOR ENGINEER > > TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC > 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 > Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 > www.taitem.com [1] > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://www.taitem.com/ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 19:35:20 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 17:35:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback ags mate3s Message-ID: <2498D457-CBE4-47E7-9160-DB1A0218E829@gmail.com> Hi all I’m hooking up a generator with a built in 5 minute shutdown delay. The mate3s sends shut down signal, inverter disconnects from power. But since the generator keeps producing power the inverter reconnects after. Few seconds and starts charging again. The mate3s has a new feature “ac input reconnect delay time” However in setting this feature to 6 minutes the inverter reconnects after a few seconds like normal. Any suggestions as to fix or programming tips? Thanks Jay Peltz power. From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 10:30:20 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:30:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silly off grid In-Reply-To: <6019ebbf-13a6-9345-a7fd-428ef691f2c5@solarray.com> References: <004701d42362$5d608200$18218600$@solarwork.com> <6019ebbf-13a6-9345-a7fd-428ef691f2c5@solarray.com> Message-ID: When I have a call like this, usually they do not have an understanding of the costs. Then a design fee it usually ends there. I have twice done a preliminary design expecting to get a design contract but only wasted my time. One of these potential customers did get a system design from another and did get a system not what the customer asked for but greatly reduced. So a design fee first. On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 1:57 PM Ray wrote: > Oh boy, do I get a bunch of calls for folks wanting to take a 24/7 grow > operation off grid. Dana nailed it: Green house. Even with LED grow > lights the numbers are just insane. Every time I get a call like this now, > I immediately ask for a design fee. They usually are not to be heard from > again. If they're not serious, why should we have to do a serious design > for free? > > Plus why would they want to do that off grid, when there are plenty of > legit grow operations on grid for much lower electric costs? It always > struck me as Fishy. On the other hand, grid tie on the roof of a legit > grow operation, that makes much more sense. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/24/18 9:24 AM, Dana wrote: > > I noticed the 970 area code – If they are growing weed suggest a green > house. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 10:31:18 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:31:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I was called to repair a system. 24 volt 8 strings of Group 31 AGM batteries. I had not self-destructed yet. For the repair, I insisted on the strings being on individual breakers of 20 amps on equal length #12 wire to balance the charging. This is a battery backup system. I recommended replacement of the batteries and a complete rebuild and that I felt the system was unsafe. That was 8 years ago, no problems yet with the system I am hoping the next repair happens before disaster. On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:56 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... > > I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very > poorly. > They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired into > 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already have > the > equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It is > for a > grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the time. > I assume > that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any harm > in using them > and then just getting new batteries once they fail? > > Stringing is shown in the attached picture. > Cheers, > Dave > > > *--* > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > *Senior Engineer* > > *Taitem Engineering, PC* > 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 > Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 > www.taitem.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 11:05:13 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 08:05:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silly off grid In-Reply-To: References: <004701d42362$5d608200$18218600$@solarwork.com> <6019ebbf-13a6-9345-a7fd-428ef691f2c5@solarray.com> Message-ID: Wrenches I have designed and installed estate size systems, 12, 18, 24 and more then 30k, systems, sure we need an energy table, customer must be cash qualified but we all need to think bigger. Remember even just 18 years ago when a big GT inverter was a 2500 now we have 60 k on the wall. We all know what it costs, give them a shotgun number if they dont flinch go for it, not everyone we sell to is as energy smart as we are, use that to help them understand what they are asking for and what you can do to help them size smart and you will be on there christmas card list from now on and have big off grid systems under your belt. We have been using multable blue ion stacked 16 k's enclosures with Outback Rads, you can even go with hybrid AC coupling and just regulate the charging with BMS on each Ion. Dont limit yourself, think whats in the future and build it now. We are all here to build green, build smart, build for the future, we dont need to think small however. Jerry NABCEP PV, PVI On Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 7:30 AM Darryl Thayer wrote: > When I have a call like this, usually they do not have an understanding of > the costs. Then a design fee it usually ends there. I have twice done a > preliminary design expecting to get a design contract but only wasted my > time. One of these potential customers did get a system design from > another and did get a system not what the customer asked for but greatly > reduced. So a design fee first. > > On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 1:57 PM Ray wrote: > >> Oh boy, do I get a bunch of calls for folks wanting to take a 24/7 grow >> operation off grid. Dana nailed it: Green house. Even with LED grow >> lights the numbers are just insane. Every time I get a call like this now, >> I immediately ask for a design fee. They usually are not to be heard from >> again. If they're not serious, why should we have to do a serious design >> for free? >> >> Plus why would they want to do that off grid, when there are plenty of >> legit grow operations on grid for much lower electric costs? It always >> struck me as Fishy. On the other hand, grid tie on the roof of a legit >> grow operation, that makes much more sense. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 7/24/18 9:24 AM, Dana wrote: >> >> I noticed the 970 area code – If they are growing weed suggest a green >> house. >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> * >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> >> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Jul 25 12:04:23 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:04:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Gro-ops Message-ID: <002701d42431$282f8f70$788eae50$@solarwork.com> If I lived in CO [or one of the other state where recreational MJ is legal], I would be soliciting grow-ops for GT system installations. Those folks have cash to spare & huge electrical loads. That in itself, could be an entire business plan. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mark Frye Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 5:52 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Silly off grid Please let the list know when you get your first request for off-grid Bitcoin mining. :-) On 7/24/2018 11:57 AM, Ray wrote: > > Oh boy, do I get a bunch of calls for folks wanting to take a 24/7 > grow operation off grid. Dana nailed it: Green house. Even with LED > grow lights the numbers are just insane. Every time I get a call like > this now, I immediately ask for a design fee. They usually are not to > be heard from again. If they're not serious, why should we have to do > a serious design for free? > > Plus why would they want to do that off grid, when there are plenty of > legit grow operations on grid for much lower electric costs? It > always struck me as Fishy. On the other hand, grid tie on the roof > of a legit grow operation, that makes much more sense. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From kelly at whidbeysunwind.com Wed Jul 25 12:28:52 2018 From: kelly at whidbeysunwind.com (Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:28:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling In-Reply-To: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> References: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> Message-ID: <6E9409AE-04D7-4160-90DF-CF7E105202B1@whidbeysunwind.com> Larry, I recommend considering retrofitting the SolarEdge “StorEdge” Li-ion battery. It’s a high-voltage battery on the PV side of the inverter. We have a few out there now for a few months without a problem. Really like the design concept of the storage on the PV side, increasing system efficiency. We’ve done quite a few AC-coupled systems, which Outback FX, Outback Radian, and SMA Sunny Island/Sunny Boy. The Outbacks require a cutout relay. We won’t do Radian AC-coupling any more, as the setup, documentation, and support is a royal PITA, and have had failures in the “ROCB” automatic cutout breaker. Even when the ROCB doesn’t fail, it often cuts out when it isn’t supposed to, like at the start/end of a float cycle. My understanding is that Outback doesn’t support AC-coupling any more with the Radian. Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. Principal Whidbey Sun & Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP PV Installation Professional WA Electrical Administrator office: 360.678.7131 > On Jul 19, 2018, at 07:07, Larry Brown wrote: > > Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed? > I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter > Any recommendations? > > Thanks > Larry > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > 845-657-8096 > Sunmountain at netstep.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at wagonmaker.com Wed Jul 25 14:32:15 2018 From: tom at wagonmaker.com (tom at wagonmaker.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 08:32:15 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: References: <00e501d422e8$576d87a0$064896e0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <23c3b57efdfac9f86cd5585c315f35e8@wagonmaker.com> So you're willing to risk total system shutdown if a single cell fails? It just seems like a big risk even if the batteries are considered highly reliable. I always planned to minimize the risk of failure causing a power outage. A buss bar arrangement with more strings provides redundancy and reduced downtime while still being very stable, more stable than an interconnected series/parallel arrangement. Tom On 2018-07-25 00:39, Tump wrote: > Perhaps suggesting the correct amp Hr battery bank would eliminate the > _need_ for buss bar. 2 volt EX1400 1K amp hour batteries work very > well good warrantee. all the fusing & interconnects would be > eliminated. MORE AHs = less interconnects, always the correct way to > go! > >> On Jul 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan >> wrote: >> >> Thank you all for the ideas and suggestions. This person in >> particular had #4 wire for the battery connections, >> so they are all getting replaced with anyway. So it seems like >> rewiring to a busbar with fuses will be the way to >> go. And although not ideal to have so many strings, this will be >> more cost effective than just getting a whole new >> battery bank right off the bat when they have 10 batteries that have >> essentially never been used. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> Dave Tedeyan >> >> SENIOR ENGINEER >> >> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC >> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >> www.taitem.com [1] >> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Glenn Burt >> wrote: >> >> Hi Christopher, >> >> I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate >> dimensions for the current I am expecting. >> >> I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size >> fasteners and use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the >> exposed bar. >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> -Glenn >> >> FROM: RE-wrenches ON >> BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer >> SENT: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM >> TO: RE-wrenches >> SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings >> >> What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple >> battery string set ups? >> >> Christopher >> >> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM, wrote: >> >> Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a >> buss bar setup. Remember it isn't just resistance differences >> between batteries but resistance difference between cells as well. >> In a setup like the existing one the resistance differences can >> really add up and if one battery fails the entire system will be >> offline. Running each string to a positive and negative common buss >> bar means you can remove individual strings without disrupting the >> entire storage and the system can continue operating. Also, it >> means the only resistance issues of substance are within individual >> series pairs not the entire interconnected bank. >> >> I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common >> buss and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had. >> That was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but >> for longevity and stability it is the best bet. >> >> Tom >> >> On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... >> >> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed >> very >> poorly. >> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries >> wired >> into >> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they >> already >> have the >> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? >> It >> is for a >> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the >> time. I assume >> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any >> harm in using them >> and then just getting new batteries once they fail? >> >> Stringing is shown in the attached picture. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> Dave Tedeyan >> >> SENIOR ENGINEER >> >> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC >> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >> www.taitem.com [1] [1] >> >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] http://www.taitem.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> [2] >> >> List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> [3] >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> [2] >> >> List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> [3] >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > [8] > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com [8] ~ E-mail: _chris at solarandwindfx.com_ > > __ > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [2] > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > [3] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> TUMP at SWNL.NET [6] WWW.SWNL.NET [7] >> >> Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ >> _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE & NORTHERN CALIFORNIA_ >> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 >> _ >> _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ > > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://www.taitem.com/ > [2] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [3] > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > [4] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [5] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ > [6] > blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net > [7] > blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ > [8] http://www.solarandwindfx.com/ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Wed Jul 25 14:44:00 2018 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 14:44:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: <23c3b57efdfac9f86cd5585c315f35e8@wagonmaker.com> References: <00e501d422e8$576d87a0$064896e0$@glbcc.com> <23c3b57efdfac9f86cd5585c315f35e8@wagonmaker.com> Message-ID: Most systems will operate down 2 volts without a problem. Warrants reconfiguring but often the homeowner won't even notice for a few days. In the past month I have had Outback and Sunny Island customers running down a cell. Sunny Island is reconfigurable to manage the situation better. Removing a single cell is losing less stored capacity than removing an entire string. Matt On Wed, July 25, 2018 2:32 pm, tom at wagonmaker.com wrote: > So you're willing to risk total system shutdown if a single cell fails? > It just seems like a big risk even if the batteries are considered > highly reliable. I always planned to minimize the risk of failure causing > a power outage. A buss bar arrangement with more strings provides > redundancy and reduced downtime while still being very stable, more stable > than an interconnected series/parallel arrangement. > > Tom > > > On 2018-07-25 00:39, Tump wrote: > >> Perhaps suggesting the correct amp Hr battery bank would eliminate the >> _need_ for buss bar. 2 volt EX1400 1K amp hour batteries work very >> well good warrantee. all the fusing & interconnects would be eliminated. >> MORE AHs = less interconnects, always the correct way to >> go! >> >>> On Jul 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Thank you all for the ideas and suggestions. This person in >>> particular had #4 wire for the battery connections, so they are all >>> getting replaced with anyway. So it seems like rewiring to a busbar >>> with fuses will be the way to go. And although not ideal to have so >>> many strings, this will be more cost effective than just getting a >>> whole new battery bank right off the bat when they have 10 batteries >>> that have essentially never been used. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Dave Tedeyan >>> >>> >>> SENIOR ENGINEER >>> >>> >>> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC >>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >>> www.taitem.com [1] On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Glenn Burt >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi Christopher, >>> >>> >>> I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate >>> dimensions for the current I am expecting. >>> >>> I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size >>> fasteners and use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the exposed >>> bar. >>> >>> Hope this helps. >>> >>> >>> -Glenn >>> >>> >>> FROM: RE-wrenches ON >>> BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer >>> SENT: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM >>> TO: RE-wrenches >>> SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings >>> >>> >>> What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple >>> battery string set ups? >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM, wrote: >>> >>> >>> Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a >>> buss bar setup. Remember it isn't just resistance differences between >>> batteries but resistance difference between cells as well. In a setup >>> like the existing one the resistance differences can really add up and >>> if one battery fails the entire system will be offline. Running each >>> string to a positive and negative common buss bar means you can remove >>> individual strings without disrupting the entire storage and the >>> system can continue operating. Also, it means the only resistance >>> issues of substance are within individual series pairs not the entire >>> interconnected bank. >>> >>> I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common >>> buss and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had. >>> That was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but >>> for longevity and stability it is the best bet. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>> >>> >>> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... >>> >>> >>> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed >>> very poorly. They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM >>> batteries wired into 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but >>> since they already have the equipment, are there any safety issues by >>> re-using this equipment? It >>> is for a grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most >>> of the time. I assume that the batteries will not last particularly >>> long, but is there any harm in using them and then just getting new >>> batteries once they fail? >>> >>> Stringing is shown in the attached picture. >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Dave Tedeyan >>> >>> >>> SENIOR ENGINEER >>> >>> >>> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC >>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >>> www.taitem.com [1] [1] >>> >>> Links: >>> ------ >>> [1] http://www.taitem.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> [2] >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> >>> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist. >> html >>> [3] >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> [2] >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> >>> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist. >> html >>> [3] >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] >> >> -- >> >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> [8] >> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> www.solarandwindfx.com [8] ~ E-mail: _chris at solarandwindfx.com_ >> >> __ >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> [2] >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.h >> tml [3] >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.h >> tml >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >>> TUMP at SWNL.NET [6] WWW.SWNL.NET [7] >>> >>> >>> Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ >>> _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE & NORTHERN CALIFORNIA_ >>> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 >>> _ >>> _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ >>> >>> >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ >>> >>> >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ >>> >> >> >> >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] http://www.taitem.com/ >> [2] >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> [3] >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.h >> tml [4] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> [5] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ >> [6] >> blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.n >> et [7] >> blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.ne >> t/ [8] http://www.solarandwindfx.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.h >> tml >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From ray at solarray.com Wed Jul 25 14:48:00 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 12:48:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: References: <00e501d422e8$576d87a0$064896e0$@glbcc.com> <23c3b57efdfac9f86cd5585c315f35e8@wagonmaker.com> Message-ID: <39bc0590-4ec3-2a21-a49b-467085a64f86@solarray.com> That's true for 48 v systems but not 24v. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/25/18 12:44 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote: > Most systems will operate down 2 volts without a problem. Warrants > reconfiguring but often the homeowner won't even notice for a few days. > In the past month I have had Outback and Sunny Island customers running > down a cell. Sunny Island is reconfigurable to manage the situation > better. > > Removing a single cell is losing less stored capacity than removing an > entire string. > > Matt > > > On Wed, July 25, 2018 2:32 pm, tom at wagonmaker.com wrote: >> So you're willing to risk total system shutdown if a single cell fails? >> It just seems like a big risk even if the batteries are considered >> highly reliable. I always planned to minimize the risk of failure causing >> a power outage. A buss bar arrangement with more strings provides >> redundancy and reduced downtime while still being very stable, more stable >> than an interconnected series/parallel arrangement. >> >> Tom >> >> >> On 2018-07-25 00:39, Tump wrote: >> >>> Perhaps suggesting the correct amp Hr battery bank would eliminate the >>> _need_ for buss bar. 2 volt EX1400 1K amp hour batteries work very >>> well good warrantee. all the fusing & interconnects would be eliminated. >>> MORE AHs = less interconnects, always the correct way to >>> go! >>> >>>> On Jul 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you all for the ideas and suggestions. This person in >>>> particular had #4 wire for the battery connections, so they are all >>>> getting replaced with anyway. So it seems like rewiring to a busbar >>>> with fuses will be the way to go. And although not ideal to have so >>>> many strings, this will be more cost effective than just getting a >>>> whole new battery bank right off the bat when they have 10 batteries >>>> that have essentially never been used. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave Tedeyan >>>> >>>> >>>> SENIOR ENGINEER >>>> >>>> >>>> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC >>>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >>>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >>>> www.taitem.com [1] On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Glenn Burt >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Christopher, >>>> >>>> >>>> I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate >>>> dimensions for the current I am expecting. >>>> >>>> I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size >>>> fasteners and use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the exposed >>>> bar. >>>> >>>> Hope this helps. >>>> >>>> >>>> -Glenn >>>> >>>> >>>> FROM: RE-wrenches ON >>>> BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer >>>> SENT: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM >>>> TO: RE-wrenches >>>> SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings >>>> >>>> >>>> What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple >>>> battery string set ups? >>>> >>>> Christopher >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM, wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a >>>> buss bar setup. Remember it isn't just resistance differences between >>>> batteries but resistance difference between cells as well. In a setup >>>> like the existing one the resistance differences can really add up and >>>> if one battery fails the entire system will be offline. Running each >>>> string to a positive and negative common buss bar means you can remove >>>> individual strings without disrupting the entire storage and the >>>> system can continue operating. Also, it means the only resistance >>>> issues of substance are within individual series pairs not the entire >>>> interconnected bank. >>>> >>>> I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common >>>> buss and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had. >>>> That was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but >>>> for longevity and stability it is the best bet. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... >>>> >>>> >>>> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed >>>> very poorly. They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM >>>> batteries wired into 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but >>>> since they already have the equipment, are there any safety issues by >>>> re-using this equipment? It >>>> is for a grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most >>>> of the time. I assume that the batteries will not last particularly >>>> long, but is there any harm in using them and then just getting new >>>> batteries once they fail? >>>> >>>> Stringing is shown in the attached picture. >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave Tedeyan >>>> >>>> >>>> SENIOR ENGINEER >>>> >>>> >>>> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC >>>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >>>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >>>> www.taitem.com [1] [1] >>>> >>>> Links: >>>> ------ >>>> [1] http://www.taitem.com/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> [2] >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> >>>> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist. >>> html >>>> [3] >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> [2] >>>> >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> >>>> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist. >>> html >>>> [3] >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> [8] >>> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> www.solarandwindfx.com [8] ~ E-mail: _chris at solarandwindfx.com_ >>> >>> __ >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> [2] >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.h >>> tml [3] >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.h >>> tml >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>> TUMP at SWNL.NET [6] WWW.SWNL.NET [7] >>>> >>>> >>>> Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ >>>> _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE & NORTHERN CALIFORNIA_ >>>> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 >>>> _ >>>> _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ >>>> >>>> >>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>> _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ >>>> >>>> >>>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>>> _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ >>>> >>> >>> >>> Links: >>> ------ >>> [1] http://www.taitem.com/ >>> [2] >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> [3] >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.h >>> tml [4] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> [5] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ >>> [6] >>> blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.n >>> et [7] >>> blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.ne >>> t/ [8] http://www.solarandwindfx.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.h >>> tml >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht >> ml >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > Matthew Partymiller > Solar Energy Solutions LLC > (877) 312-7456 > matt at solar-energy-solutions.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jul 25 14:53:06 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 11:53:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: <23c3b57efdfac9f86cd5585c315f35e8@wagonmaker.com> References: <00e501d422e8$576d87a0$064896e0$@glbcc.com> <23c3b57efdfac9f86cd5585c315f35e8@wagonmaker.com> Message-ID: <5e02974cc62242103a7697255294c9fc@127.0.0.1> It is extremely rare that a 2V cell like Trump is refering fails causing loss of power to the home. There is often plenty of warning that an informed offgrid owner would have that something is wrong. The last point is the inverter and charge controllers have enough range that they can operate the system with a missing 2V battery until one is obtained if that happened. 2V systems are much more reliable in my experience than strings of 6V batteries. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 08:32:15 -1000, tom at wagonmaker.com wrote: > So you're willing to risk total system shutdown if a single cell fails? > It just seems like a big risk even if the batteries are considered > highly reliable. I always planned to minimize the risk of failure > causing a power outage. A buss bar arrangement with more strings > provides redundancy and reduced downtime while still being very stable, > more stable than an interconnected series/parallel arrangement. > > Tom > > On 2018-07-25 00:39, Tump wrote: >> Perhaps suggesting the correct amp Hr battery bank would eliminate the >> _need_ for buss bar. 2 volt EX1400 1K amp hour batteries work very >> well good warrantee. all the fusing & interconnects would be >> eliminated. MORE AHs = less interconnects, always the correct way to >> go! >> >>> On Jul 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan >>> wrote: >>> >>> Thank you all for the ideas and suggestions. This person in >>> particular had #4 wire for the battery connections, >>> so they are all getting replaced with anyway. So it seems like >>> rewiring to a busbar with fuses will be the way to >>> go. And although not ideal to have so many strings, this will be >>> more cost effective than just getting a whole new >>> battery bank right off the bat when they have 10 batteries that have >>> essentially never been used. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Dave Tedeyan >>> >>> SENIOR ENGINEER >>> >>> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC >>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >>> www.taitem.com [1] >>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Glenn Burt >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Christopher, >>> >>> I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate >>> dimensions for the current I am expecting. >>> >>> I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size >>> fasteners and use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the >>> exposed bar. >>> >>> Hope this helps. >>> >>> -Glenn >>> >>> FROM: RE-wrenches ON >>> BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer >>> SENT: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM >>> TO: RE-wrenches >>> SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings >>> >>> What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple >>> battery string set ups? >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM, wrote: >>> >>> Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a >>> buss bar setup. Remember it isn't just resistance differences >>> between batteries but resistance difference between cells as well. >>> In a setup like the existing one the resistance differences can >>> really add up and if one battery fails the entire system will be >>> offline. Running each string to a positive and negative common buss >>> bar means you can remove individual strings without disrupting the >>> entire storage and the system can continue operating. Also, it >>> means the only resistance issues of substance are within individual >>> series pairs not the entire interconnected bank. >>> >>> I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common >>> buss and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had. >>> That was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but >>> for longevity and stability it is the best bet. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>> >>> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... >>> >>> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed >>> very >>> poorly. >>> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries >>> wired >>> into >>> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they >>> already >>> have the >>> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? >>> It >>> is for a >>> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the >>> time. I assume >>> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any >>> harm in using them >>> and then just getting new batteries once they fail? >>> >>> Stringing is shown in the attached picture. >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Dave Tedeyan >>> >>> SENIOR ENGINEER >>> >>> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC >>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >>> www.taitem.com [1] [1] >>> >>> Links: >>> ------ >>> [1] http://www.taitem.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> [2] >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> [3] >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> [2] >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> [3] >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> [8] >> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> www.solarandwindfx.com [8] ~ E-mail: _chris at solarandwindfx.com_ >> >> __ >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> [2] >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> [3] >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >>> TUMP at SWNL.NET [6] WWW.SWNL.NET [7] >>> >>> Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ >>> _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE & NORTHERN CALIFORNIA_ >>> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 >>> _ >>> _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ >>> >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ >>> >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ >> >> >> >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] http://www.taitem.com/ >> [2] >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> [3] >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> [4] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> [5] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ >> [6] >> blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net >> [7] >> blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ >> [8] http://www.solarandwindfx.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From tump at swnl.net Wed Jul 25 18:41:56 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 18:41:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings In-Reply-To: <23c3b57efdfac9f86cd5585c315f35e8@wagonmaker.com> References: <00e501d422e8$576d87a0$064896e0$@glbcc.com> <23c3b57efdfac9f86cd5585c315f35e8@wagonmaker.com> Message-ID: Cells, even in a string /buss bar configuration, a cell will fail eventually, either a 6 volt, 12 volt or 2 volt battery Systems that are designed like this, w/ 2 v cells I can take the offending cell out of the system, jumper the bad cell, and the system will function perfectly fine at lower voltages. reset the LBCO settings . Look at your DC operating voltage window of your inverters. More batteries in many strings have more possibilities of issues due to loose interconnects, different internal resistance, more holes to water & Spg readings to take and record, leads to poor maintenance. So more batteries to eliminate the risk total system shutdown doesn’t make it in my book, fewer larger cells maximizes battery investment $$$$. > On Jul 25, 2018, at 2:32 PM, tom at wagonmaker.com wrote: > > So you're willing to risk total system shutdown if a single cell fails? It just seems like a big risk even if the batteries are considered highly reliable. I always planned to minimize the risk of failure causing a power outage. A buss bar arrangement with more strings provides redundancy and reduced downtime while still being very stable, more stable than an interconnected series/parallel arrangement. > > Tom > > On 2018-07-25 00:39, Tump wrote: >> Perhaps suggesting the correct amp Hr battery bank would eliminate the >> _need_ for buss bar. 2 volt EX1400 1K amp hour batteries work very >> well good warrantee. all the fusing & interconnects would be >> eliminated. MORE AHs = less interconnects, always the correct way to >> go! >>> On Jul 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan >>> wrote: >>> Thank you all for the ideas and suggestions. This person in >>> particular had #4 wire for the battery connections, >>> so they are all getting replaced with anyway. So it seems like >>> rewiring to a busbar with fuses will be the way to >>> go. And although not ideal to have so many strings, this will be >>> more cost effective than just getting a whole new >>> battery bank right off the bat when they have 10 batteries that have >>> essentially never been used. >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> -- >>> Dave Tedeyan >>> SENIOR ENGINEER >>> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC >>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >>> www.taitem.com [1] >>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Glenn Burt >>> wrote: >>> Hi Christopher, >>> I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate >>> dimensions for the current I am expecting. >>> I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size >>> fasteners and use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the >>> exposed bar. >>> Hope this helps. >>> -Glenn >>> FROM: RE-wrenches ON >>> BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer >>> SENT: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM >>> TO: RE-wrenches >>> SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings >>> What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple >>> battery string set ups? >>> Christopher >>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM, wrote: >>> Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a >>> buss bar setup. Remember it isn't just resistance differences >>> between batteries but resistance difference between cells as well. >>> In a setup like the existing one the resistance differences can >>> really add up and if one battery fails the entire system will be >>> offline. Running each string to a positive and negative common buss >>> bar means you can remove individual strings without disrupting the >>> entire storage and the system can continue operating. Also, it >>> means the only resistance issues of substance are within individual >>> series pairs not the entire interconnected bank. >>> I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common >>> buss and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had. >>> That was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but >>> for longevity and stability it is the best bet. >>> Tom >>> On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... >>> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed >>> very >>> poorly. >>> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries >>> wired >>> into >>> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they >>> already >>> have the >>> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? >>> It >>> is for a >>> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the >>> time. I assume >>> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any >>> harm in using them >>> and then just getting new batteries once they fail? >>> Stringing is shown in the attached picture. >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> -- >>> Dave Tedeyan >>> SENIOR ENGINEER >>> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC >>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 >>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 >>> www.taitem.com [1] [1] >>> Links: >>> ------ >>> [1] http://www.taitem.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> [2] >>> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> [3] >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> [2] >>> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> [3] >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] >> -- >> Chris Schaefer’s >> [8] >> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> www.solarandwindfx.com [8] ~ E-mail: _chris at solarandwindfx.com_ >> __ >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> [2] >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> [3] >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [4] >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org [5] >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> TUMP at SWNL.NET [6] WWW.SWNL.NET [7] >>> Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ >>> _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE & NORTHERN CALIFORNIA_ >>> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 >>> _ >>> _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] http://www.taitem.com/ >> [2] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> [3] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> [4] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> [5] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ >> [6] blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net >> [7] blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ >> [8] http://www.solarandwindfx.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Jul 25 19:22:04 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 19:22:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aqueon disposal Message-ID: <001701d4246e$4dfdace0$e9f906a0$@glbcc.com> Howdy wrenches, Does anyone have any experience with disposing of the Aqueon battery stacks? We have a number that have failed and our local waste station is balking, regardless of how much hand-holding we provide and specifications, MSDS and manufacturer info we supply. We have been referred to the state Environmental Conservation Agency and they are discussing haz-mat and recycling requirements with no understanding of their components. Any suggestions, recommendations or experience with recycling/disposing of these batteries? Thanks, Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Jul 25 19:23:34 2018 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Scot Arey) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 23:23:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling In-Reply-To: <6E9409AE-04D7-4160-90DF-CF7E105202B1@whidbeysunwind.com> References: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> <6E9409AE-04D7-4160-90DF-CF7E105202B1@whidbeysunwind.com> Message-ID: <9B9F5F3CB36A2754.7e0a1734-ad23-447f-9890-e7bcafcd6c3a@mail.outlook.com> Yes I had also heard from Outback  that AC Coupling not supported. Too bad because the AC coupling load center was slick setup and integration. Scot Get Outlook for Android On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 10:29 AM -0600, "Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind" wrote: Larry,I recommend considering retrofitting the SolarEdge “StorEdge” Li-ion battery. It’s a high-voltage battery on the PV side of the inverter. We have a few out there now for a few months without a problem. Really like the design concept of the storage on the PV side, increasing system efficiency. We’ve done quite a few AC-coupled systems, which Outback FX, Outback Radian, and SMA Sunny Island/Sunny Boy. The Outbacks require a cutout relay. We won’t do Radian AC-coupling any more, as the setup, documentation, and support is a royal PITA, and have had failures in the “ROCB” automatic cutout breaker. Even when the ROCB doesn’t fail, it often cuts out when it isn’t supposed to, like at the start/end of a float cycle. My understanding is that Outback doesn’t support AC-coupling any more with the Radian. Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.  Principal Whidbey Sun & Wind Renewable Energy Systems NABCEP PV Installation Professional WA Electrical Administrator office: 360.678.7131 On Jul 19, 2018, at 07:07, Larry Brown wrote: Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed? I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter Any recommendations? Thanks Larry Larry Brown Sun Mountain 845-657-8096 Sunmountain at netstep.net _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 18:54:29 2018 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:54:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aqueon disposal In-Reply-To: <001701d4246e$4dfdace0$e9f906a0$@glbcc.com> References: <001701d4246e$4dfdace0$e9f906a0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: I was lucky that my local county Hazo-house took a look at the MSDS and said drop them off. The person there saw my big MSDS printout and said uh oh, but then she knew just where to look and said fine no problem drop them off. Too bad not everyone is that knowledgeable about what they are looking at. These are so much easier to move when you take them apart too. 30 lbs cell blocks. Then you have some interesting parts to do something with. Attached is a photo of my Super Aquion Gravel Tamper tool. Some of the other aluminum parts will get incorporated into one of my homemade telescopes. Brad AEE Solar On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > Howdy wrenches, > > > > Does anyone have any experience with disposing of the Aqueon battery > stacks? > > We have a number that have failed and our local waste station is balking, > regardless of how much hand-holding we provide and specifications, MSDS and > manufacturer info we supply. > > We have been referred to the state Environmental Conservation Agency and > they are discussing haz-mat and recycling requirements with no > understanding of their components. > > Any suggestions, recommendations or experience with recycling/disposing of > these batteries? > > > > Thanks, > > Glenn > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Aq GT sm.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 52629 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Thu Jul 26 20:00:41 2018 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 20:00:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aqueon disposal In-Reply-To: References: <001701d4246e$4dfdace0$e9f906a0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Quite resourceful, Brad. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Jul 26, 2018, at 6:54 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > > I was lucky that my local county Hazo-house took a look at the MSDS and said drop them off. The person there saw my big MSDS printout and said uh oh, but then she knew just where to look and said fine no problem drop them off. Too bad not everyone is that knowledgeable about what they are looking at. > > These are so much easier to move when you take them apart too. 30 lbs cell blocks. Then you have some interesting parts to do something with. Attached is a photo of my Super Aquion Gravel Tamper tool. Some of the other aluminum parts will get incorporated into one of my homemade telescopes. > > Brad > AEE Solar > >> On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: >> Howdy wrenches, >> >> >> >> Does anyone have any experience with disposing of the Aqueon battery stacks? >> >> We have a number that have failed and our local waste station is balking, regardless of how much hand-holding we provide and specifications, MSDS and manufacturer info we supply. >> >> We have been referred to the state Environmental Conservation Agency and they are discussing haz-mat and recycling requirements with no understanding of their components. >> >> Any suggestions, recommendations or experience with recycling/disposing of these batteries? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Glenn >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 21:14:01 2018 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 18:14:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aqueon disposal In-Reply-To: References: <001701d4246e$4dfdace0$e9f906a0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: They do not spill liquid when turned up side down, the valve only opens on high pressure. But there could be free liquid inside that would escape if they are broken. When I hired a couple of strong guys to move mine into place we tried using the eye and a bar through it, but that did not work well. One would need to find a way to prevent the eye from sliding on the bar. A bloody hand was had by one of the guys. They ended up using a hand truck. The attached document shows that you can tilt them up to 45° for up to one hour. My eye has moved on, I think I bought it from McMaster-Carr. I had to get a male threaded eye and coupling nut, they did not have a female threaded eye that fit. The cell packs also make good shop weights, very flat on bottom, just don't drop them. I kept a few for the purpose. Brad On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 5:00 PM, Rick Brown < rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com> wrote: > Quite resourceful, Brad. > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > On Jul 26, 2018, at 6:54 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > > I was lucky that my local county Hazo-house took a look at the MSDS and > said drop them off. The person there saw my big MSDS printout and said uh > oh, but then she knew just where to look and said fine no problem drop them > off. Too bad not everyone is that knowledgeable about what they are looking > at. > > These are so much easier to move when you take them apart too. 30 lbs cell > blocks. Then you have some interesting parts to do something with. Attached > is a photo of my Super Aquion Gravel Tamper tool. Some of the other > aluminum parts will get incorporated into one of my homemade telescopes. > > Brad > AEE Solar > > On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > >> Howdy wrenches, >> >> >> >> Does anyone have any experience with disposing of the Aqueon battery >> stacks? >> >> We have a number that have failed and our local waste station is balking, >> regardless of how much hand-holding we provide and specifications, MSDS and >> manufacturer info we supply. >> >> We have been referred to the state Environmental Conservation Agency and >> they are discussing haz-mat and recycling requirements with no >> understanding of their components. >> >> Any suggestions, recommendations or experience with recycling/disposing >> of these batteries? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Glenn >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Aspen_Quick-Start_Guide.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 446422 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Jul 27 07:11:33 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 07:11:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aqueon disposal In-Reply-To: References: <001701d4246e$4dfdace0$e9f906a0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: How many of these are going bad? Is this a major problem, or has mismanagement ruined a few? Drake At 06:54 PM 7/26/2018, you wrote: >I was lucky that my local county Hazo-house took >a look at the MSDS and said drop them off. The >person there saw my big MSDS printout and said >uh oh, but then she knew just where to look and >said fine no problem drop them off. Too bad not >everyone is that knowledgeable about what they are looking at. > >These are so much easier to move when you take >them apart too. 30 lbs cell blocks. Then you >have some interesting parts to do something >with. Attached is a photo of my Super Aquion >Gravel Tamper tool. Some of the other aluminum >parts will get incorporated into one of my homemade telescopes. > >Brad >AEE Solar > >On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Glenn Burt ><glenn.burt at glbcc.com> wrote: > >Howdy wrenches, > > > >Does anyone have any experience with disposing of the Aqueon battery stacks? > >We have a number that have failed and our local >waste station is balking, regardless of how much >hand-holding we provide and specifications, MSDS >and manufacturer info we supply. > >We have been referred to the state Environmental >Conservation Agency and they are discussing >haz-mat and recycling requirements with no understanding of their components. > >Any suggestions, recommendations or experience >with recycling/disposing of these batteries? > > > >Thanks, > >Glenn > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="Aq GT sm.jpg" >Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Aq GT sm.jpg" >X-Attachment-Id: f_jk35mu4a0 > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Jul 27 08:17:37 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:17:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Rapid Shutdown RTB rewiring In-Reply-To: <9B9F5F3CB36A2754.7e0a1734-ad23-447f-9890-e7bcafcd6c3a@mail.outlook.com> References: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> <6E9409AE-04D7-4160-90DF-CF7E105202B1@whidbeysunwind.com> <9B9F5F3CB36A2754.7e0a1734-ad23-447f-9890-e7bcafcd6c3a@mail.outlook.com> Message-ID: <62306dbd-ff6e-0cf2-1411-cf12fe9e3640@entech-engineering.com> I learned from Outback yesterday that an important step in using this RS initiator is not described in the directions. The prewired GFI needs to be removed and the conductors connected to their supplied RTB breaker that is supposed to be located in the same slot. The GFI function is inthe combiner box. Has anyone found Outback instructions describing this?  The person I worked with on the phone yesterday could not find any directions to this effect.  Chris On 7/25/2018 7:23 PM, Scot Arey wrote: > Yes I had also heard from Outback  that AC Coupling not supported. > > Too bad because the AC coupling load center was slick setup and > integration. > > Scot > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 10:29 AM -0600, "Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & > Wind" > wrote: > > Larry, > I recommend considering retrofitting the SolarEdge “StorEdge” > Li-ion battery. It’s a high-voltage battery on the PV side of the > inverter. We have a few out there now for a few months without a > problem. Really like the design concept of the storage on the PV > side, increasing system efficiency. > > We’ve done quite a few AC-coupled systems, which Outback FX, > Outback Radian, and SMA Sunny Island/Sunny Boy. The Outbacks > require a cutout relay. We won’t do Radian AC-coupling any more, > as the setup, documentation, and support is a royal PITA, and have > had failures in the “ROCB” automatic cutout breaker. Even when the > ROCB doesn’t fail, it often cuts out when it isn’t supposed to, > like at the start/end of a float cycle. My understanding is that > Outback doesn’t support AC-coupling any more with the Radian. > > Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. > Principal > Whidbey Sun & Wind > Renewable Energy Systems > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > WA Electrical Administrator > office: 360.678.7131 > > > >> On Jul 19, 2018, at 07:07, Larry Brown > > wrote: >> >> Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to >> AC Couple with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already >> installed? >> I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ >> Inverters for off grid but have no experience AC Coupling them >> with a Solar Edge Inverter >> Any recommendations? >> >> Thanks >> Larry >> >> Larry Brown >> Sun Mountain >> 845-657-8096 >> Sunmountain at netstep.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 08:30:34 2018 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:30:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling Message-ID: I've liked the StorEdge design of SolarEdge since it was first introduced a few years ago, but have never done it even seen an instant with it. What are others experience with it, especially compared to AC coupled battery backup solutions? Howie On Jul 25, 2018 8:18 PM, "Scot Arey" wrote: Yes I had also heard from Outback that AC Coupling not supported. Too bad because the AC coupling load center was slick setup and integration. Scot Get Outlook for Android On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 10:29 AM -0600, "Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & Wind" wrote: Larry, > I recommend considering retrofitting the SolarEdge “StorEdge” Li-ion > battery. It’s a high-voltage battery on the PV side of the inverter. We > have a few out there now for a few months without a problem. Really like > the design concept of the storage on the PV side, increasing system > efficiency. > > We’ve done quite a few AC-coupled systems, which Outback FX, Outback > Radian, and SMA Sunny Island/Sunny Boy. The Outbacks require a cutout > relay. We won’t do Radian AC-coupling any more, as the setup, > documentation, and support is a royal PITA, and have had failures in the > “ROCB” automatic cutout breaker. Even when the ROCB doesn’t fail, it often > cuts out when it isn’t supposed to, like at the start/end of a float cycle. > My understanding is that Outback doesn’t support AC-coupling any more with > the Radian. > > Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. > Principal > Whidbey Sun & Wind > Renewable Energy Systems > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > WA Electrical Administrator > office: 360.678.7131 > > > > On Jul 19, 2018, at 07:07, Larry Brown wrote: > > Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC Couple > with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed? > I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for off > grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter > Any recommendations? > > Thanks > Larry > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > 845-657-8096 > Sunmountain at netstep.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 10:10:19 2018 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 07:10:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aqueon disposal In-Reply-To: <20180727111147.61F061081C0@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <001701d4246e$4dfdace0$e9f906a0$@glbcc.com> <20180727111147.61F061081C0@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Mine had been mishandled when taken out of service, the uninstaller loosened the main nuts on the top of the stacks. They were then trucked up the west coast that way. Loosening the main nut is known to damage them, and I expect the vibration from being trucked probably finished the job. Brad On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 4:11 AM, Drake wrote: > How many of these are going bad? Is this a major problem, or has > mismanagement ruined a few? > > Drake > > > At 06:54 PM 7/26/2018, you wrote: > > I was lucky that my local county Hazo-house took a look at the MSDS and > said drop them off. The person there saw my big MSDS printout and said uh > oh, but then she knew just where to look and said fine no problem drop them > off. Too bad not everyone is that knowledgeable about what they are looking > at. > > These are so much easier to move when you take them apart too. 30 lbs cell > blocks. Then you have some interesting parts to do something with. Attached > is a photo of my Super Aquion Gravel Tamper tool. Some of the other > aluminum parts will get incorporated into one of my homemade telescopes. > > Brad > AEE Solar > > On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Howdy wrenches, > >  > > Does anyone have any experience with disposing of the Aqueon battery > stacks? > > We have a number that have failed and our local waste station is balking, > regardless of how much hand-holding we provide and specifications, MSDS and > manufacturer info we supply. > > We have been referred to the state Environmental Conservation Agency and > they are discussing haz-mat and recycling requirements with no > understanding of their components. > > Any suggestions, recommendations or experience with recycling/disposing of > these batteries? > >  > > Thanks, > > Glenn > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="Aq GT sm.jpg" > Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Aq GT sm.jpg" > X-Attachment-Id: f_jk35mu4a0 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 10:19:14 2018 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 07:19:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Rapid Shutdown RTB rewiring In-Reply-To: <62306dbd-ff6e-0cf2-1411-cf12fe9e3640@entech-engineering.com> References: <5CBB66C4-363E-4AC8-8CC6-C0518680B7B2@netstep.net> <6E9409AE-04D7-4160-90DF-CF7E105202B1@whidbeysunwind.com> <9B9F5F3CB36A2754.7e0a1734-ad23-447f-9890-e7bcafcd6c3a@mail.outlook.com> <62306dbd-ff6e-0cf2-1411-cf12fe9e3640@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: The OutBack GFP breaker is generally on the battery side of the charge control, the RTB breaker for the ICS+ is installed on the array side of the charge control. I have not seen, nor been told by OutBack engineers, that there is a GFP in the ICS+ combiner, but that is where the AFCI is. Brad AEE Solar On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 5:17 AM, cwarfel wrote: > I learned from Outback yesterday that an important step in using this RS > initiator is not described in the directions. The prewired GFI needs to > be removed and the conductors connected to their supplied RTB breaker > that is supposed to be located in the same slot. The GFI function is in > the combiner box. > > Has anyone found Outback instructions describing this? The person I > worked with on the phone yesterday could not find any directions to this > effect. Chris > > > > On 7/25/2018 7:23 PM, Scot Arey wrote: > > Yes I had also heard from Outback that AC Coupling not supported. > > Too bad because the AC coupling load center was slick setup and > integration. > > Scot > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 10:29 AM -0600, "Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & > Wind" wrote: > > Larry, >> I recommend considering retrofitting the SolarEdge “StorEdge” Li-ion >> battery. It’s a high-voltage battery on the PV side of the inverter. We >> have a few out there now for a few months without a problem. Really like >> the design concept of the storage on the PV side, increasing system >> efficiency. >> >> We’ve done quite a few AC-coupled systems, which Outback FX, Outback >> Radian, and SMA Sunny Island/Sunny Boy. The Outbacks require a cutout >> relay. We won’t do Radian AC-coupling any more, as the setup, >> documentation, and support is a royal PITA, and have had failures in the >> “ROCB” automatic cutout breaker. Even when the ROCB doesn’t fail, it often >> cuts out when it isn’t supposed to, like at the start/end of a float cycle. >> My understanding is that Outback doesn’t support AC-coupling any more with >> the Radian. >> >> Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. >> Principal >> Whidbey Sun & Wind >> Renewable Energy Systems >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> WA Electrical Administrator >> office: 360.678.7131 >> >> >> >> On Jul 19, 2018, at 07:07, Larry Brown wrote: >> >> Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC >> Couple with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed? >> I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for >> off grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter >> Any recommendations? >> >> Thanks >> Larry >> >> Larry Brown >> Sun Mountain >> 845-657-8096 >> Sunmountain at netstep.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401)466-8978 > > [image: EEI logo] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Fri Jul 27 21:46:27 2018 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (RM You) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 18:46:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase Message-ID: <688CA80B-A8B2-4541-85A2-973CAC094430@solareagle.com> Anyone have a source of M210 Enphase inverters? I have a customer who has 3 out of 12 that are leaking and as he is getting his roof re-done would like to replace those before problems occur. They are still working properly but I don’t know the likelihood of failure. I could replace them with 215’s but the trunk cable plugs are different so would have to run a separate trunk cable for just those 3 unless there is an adapter. Any suggestions wildly appreciated ;) ! Ron earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 21:51:14 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 18:51:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase In-Reply-To: <688CA80B-A8B2-4541-85A2-973CAC094430@solareagle.com> References: <688CA80B-A8B2-4541-85A2-973CAC094430@solareagle.com> Message-ID: HI Ron, Leaking what? jay peltz power > On Jul 27, 2018, at 6:46 PM, RM You wrote: > > Anyone have a source of M210 Enphase inverters? I have a customer who has 3 out of 12 that are leaking and as he is getting his roof re-done would like to replace those before problems occur. They are still working properly but I don’t know the likelihood of failure. I could replace them with 215’s but the trunk cable plugs are different so would have to run a separate trunk cable for just those 3 unless there is an adapter. Any suggestions wildly appreciated ;) ! > > Ron > earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Fri Jul 27 22:17:26 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 19:17:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase In-Reply-To: <688CA80B-A8B2-4541-85A2-973CAC094430@solareagle.com> References: <688CA80B-A8B2-4541-85A2-973CAC094430@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Ron: I have received replacement inverters from Enphase with non-standard connectors to fit older installations. I would check with Enphase on options for inverters that may be newer but have the older plugs, or for adapters. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of RM You Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 6:46 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase Anyone have a source of M210 Enphase inverters? I have a customer who has 3 out of 12 that are leaking and as he is getting his roof re-done would like to replace those before problems occur. They are still working properly but I don’t know the likelihood of failure. I could replace them with 215’s but the trunk cable plugs are different so would have to run a separate trunk cable for just those 3 unless there is an adapter. Any suggestions wildly appreciated ;) ! Ron earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From solareagle at solareagle.com Sat Jul 28 02:55:02 2018 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 23:55:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase In-Reply-To: References: <688CA80B-A8B2-4541-85A2-973CAC094430@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, there is a black tar like substance leaking out of the seams on two inverters and from around the connection wire on a third. It’s not a lot but seems like it shouldn’t be happening. There are 12 inverters in the array. > On Jul 27, 2018, at 6:51 PM, jay > wrote: > > HI Ron, > > Leaking what? > > jay > > peltz power > >> On Jul 27, 2018, at 6:46 PM, RM You > wrote: >> >> Anyone have a source of M210 Enphase inverters? I have a customer who has 3 out of 12 that are leaking and as he is getting his roof re-done would like to replace those before problems occur. They are still working properly but I don’t know the likelihood of failure. I could replace them with 215’s but the trunk cable plugs are different so would have to run a separate trunk cable for just those 3 unless there is an adapter. Any suggestions wildly appreciated ;) ! >> >> Ron >> earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_1663.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 86170 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jul 28 10:02:21 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 07:02:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase In-Reply-To: References: <688CA80B-A8B2-4541-85A2-973CAC094430@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Yea sure seems like a warranty issue to me. Let us know how enphase deals with it. Jay > On Jul 27, 2018, at 11:55 PM, Ron Young wrote: > > Hi Jay, there is a black tar like substance leaking out of the seams on two inverters and from around the connection wire on a third. It’s not a lot but seems like it shouldn’t be happening. There are 12 inverters in the array. > > > > > >> On Jul 27, 2018, at 6:51 PM, jay wrote: >> >> HI Ron, >> >> Leaking what? >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >>> On Jul 27, 2018, at 6:46 PM, RM You wrote: >>> >>> Anyone have a source of M210 Enphase inverters? I have a customer who has 3 out of 12 that are leaking and as he is getting his roof re-done would like to replace those before problems occur. They are still working properly but I don’t know the likelihood of failure. I could replace them with 215’s but the trunk cable plugs are different so would have to run a separate trunk cable for just those 3 unless there is an adapter. Any suggestions wildly appreciated ;) ! >>> >>> Ron >>> earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_1663.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 86170 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Sat Jul 28 11:07:54 2018 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 15:07:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase In-Reply-To: <688CA80B-A8B2-4541-85A2-973CAC094430@solareagle.com> References: <688CA80B-A8B2-4541-85A2-973CAC094430@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <814803128.4557780.1532790474833@mail.yahoo.com> Ron, Give Enphase a call; replacements are usually sent without a hassle. They have a lot of experience replacing their older inverters.  regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com From: RM You To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 9:46 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase Anyone have a source of M210 Enphase inverters? I have a customer who has 3 out of 12 that are leaking and as he is getting his roof re-done would like to replace those before problems occur. They are still working properly but I don’t know the likelihood of failure. I could replace them with 215’s but the trunk cable plugs are different so would have to run a separate trunk cable for just those 3 unless there is an adapter. Any suggestions wildly appreciated ;) ! Ron earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Sat Jul 28 20:10:21 2018 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 00:10:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space References: <293150612.3850685.1532823021183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <293150612.3850685.1532823021183@mail.yahoo.com> Wrenches, I have a customer who wants to have batteries installed in a 4' tall crawl space / short basement. Are there any accessibility code issues with installing batteries in a crawl space? Does the NEC address this? Thanks, Jerry Caldwell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 00:14:30 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 18:14:30 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ac Coupling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches You can still AC couple Outback, they just eliminated tha option because of breaker issues but it can still be done using contactors all set to normally open and configured by DC Voltage. With Outback there is no real limit to battery capasity like you have with both the new SMA sunny boy storage and the Solar Edge, both high voltage and very limited capasity due to battery management abilities. The same way you do load sheding you can do power input reduction control. Jerry On Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 2:30 AM Howie Michaelson wrote: > > I've liked the StorEdge design of SolarEdge since it was first introduced > a few years ago, but have never done it even seen an instant with it. What > are others experience with it, especially compared to AC coupled battery > backup solutions? > Howie > > On Jul 25, 2018 8:18 PM, "Scot Arey" wrote: > > Yes I had also heard from Outback that AC Coupling not supported. > > Too bad because the AC coupling load center was slick setup and > integration. > > Scot > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 10:29 AM -0600, "Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & > Wind" wrote: > > Larry, >> I recommend considering retrofitting the SolarEdge “StorEdge” Li-ion >> battery. It’s a high-voltage battery on the PV side of the inverter. We >> have a few out there now for a few months without a problem. Really like >> the design concept of the storage on the PV side, increasing system >> efficiency. >> >> We’ve done quite a few AC-coupled systems, which Outback FX, Outback >> Radian, and SMA Sunny Island/Sunny Boy. The Outbacks require a cutout >> relay. We won’t do Radian AC-coupling any more, as the setup, >> documentation, and support is a royal PITA, and have had failures in the >> “ROCB” automatic cutout breaker. Even when the ROCB doesn’t fail, it often >> cuts out when it isn’t supposed to, like at the start/end of a float cycle. >> My understanding is that Outback doesn’t support AC-coupling any more with >> the Radian. >> >> Kelly Keilwitz, P.E. >> Principal >> Whidbey Sun & Wind >> Renewable Energy Systems >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> WA Electrical Administrator >> office: 360.678.7131 >> >> >> >> On Jul 19, 2018, at 07:07, Larry Brown wrote: >> >> Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to AC >> Couple with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already installed? >> I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+ Inverters for >> off grid but have no experience AC Coupling them with a Solar Edge Inverter >> Any recommendations? >> >> Thanks >> Larry >> >> Larry Brown >> Sun Mountain >> 845-657-8096 >> Sunmountain at netstep.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Jul 30 00:19:57 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 21:19:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space In-Reply-To: <293150612.3850685.1532823021183@mail.yahoo.com> References: <293150612.3850685.1532823021183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <293150612.3850685.1532823021183@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <275db524-37ed-a829-86ce-eedc873a816d@psln.com> Jerry,             I serviced a system that (who became my) customer installed just like that. To me, it doesn't really matter what the NEC thinks about it. It was great because it showed me what I would *never* duplicate in my repertoire of installs. Bill On 7/28/2018 5:10 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: > Wrenches, > > I have a customer who wants to have batteries installed in a 4' tall > crawl space / short basement. Are there any accessibility code issues > with installing batteries in a crawl space? Does the NEC address this? > > Thanks, > Jerry Caldwell > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Jul 30 10:37:59 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 08:37:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space Message-ID: <000b01d42812$eaba3060$c02e9120$@solarwork.com> Safe working clearance is 6’-8”. I have been confronted with this issue in the past taking over other’s systems care. This is a head banger & a major safety issue if something goes bad. If the batteries are 18-20” tall that only leaves anther 28-30” between bottom side of the floor joist & the top of the battery. Your face is way too close to a battery esp. if there is an issue to address. The installation is bent over back-heavy move situation. I am assuming you have a dirt or gravel floor to move across? It seems like a good use of space up front but the reality of the install plagues you down the road. If it is WLA batteries it is the worst of situations. Even if this is not inspected, please avoid this situation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Caldwell Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 6:10 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space Wrenches, I have a customer who wants to have batteries installed in a 4' tall crawl space / short basement. Are there any accessibility code issues with installing batteries in a crawl space? Does the NEC address this? Thanks, Jerry Caldwell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Jul 30 11:40:36 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 08:40:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase In-Reply-To: <814803128.4557780.1532790474833@mail.yahoo.com> References: <688CA80B-A8B2-4541-85A2-973CAC094430@solareagle.com> <814803128.4557780.1532790474833@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: We have many M210 and M190 micros installed and deal with replacements frequently. If you're seeing physical signs of oozing or swelling, it's only a matter of time before they stop working. Enphase should replace them under warranty, especially if you explain that now is the time to get them swapped and show them the pics. August Luminalt On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 8:08 AM Bill Hennessy wrote: > Ron, Give Enphase a call; replacements are usually sent without a hassle. > They have a lot of experience replacing their older inverters. > > regards, bill > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RM You > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, July 27, 2018 9:46 PM > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase > > Anyone have a source of M210 Enphase inverters? I have a customer who has > 3 out of 12 that are leaking and as he is getting his roof re-done would > like to replace those before problems occur. They are still working > properly but I don’t know the likelihood of failure. I could replace them > with 215’s but the trunk cable plugs are different so would have to run a > separate trunk cable for just those 3 unless there is an adapter. Any > suggestions wildly appreciated ;) ! > > Ron > earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Mon Jul 30 15:54:29 2018 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 12:54:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase In-Reply-To: References: <688CA80B-A8B2-4541-85A2-973CAC094430@solareagle.com> <814803128.4557780.1532790474833@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Good to know August and Bill, I’ll put in a call today. Ron earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com > On Jul 30, 2018, at 8:40 AM, August Goers wrote: > > We have many M210 and M190 micros installed and deal with replacements frequently. If you're seeing physical signs of oozing or swelling, it's only a matter of time before they stop working. Enphase should replace them under warranty, especially if you explain that now is the time to get them swapped and show them the pics. > > August > Luminalt > > On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 8:08 AM Bill Hennessy > wrote: > Ron, Give Enphase a call; replacements are usually sent without a hassle. They have a lot of experience replacing their older inverters. > > regards, bill > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > > > From: RM You > > To: RE-wrenches > > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 9:46 PM > Subject: [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase > > Anyone have a source of M210 Enphase inverters? I have a customer who has 3 out of 12 that are leaking and as he is getting his roof re-done would like to replace those before problems occur. They are still working properly but I don’t know the likelihood of failure. I could replace them with 215’s but the trunk cable plugs are different so would have to run a separate trunk cable for just those 3 unless there is an adapter. Any suggestions wildly appreciated ;) ! > > Ron > earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jul 30 15:32:27 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:32:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space In-Reply-To: <000b01d42812$eaba3060$c02e9120$@solarwork.com> References: <000b01d42812$eaba3060$c02e9120$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <2367c3a9-ff8c-6613-6b1d-076ab69151d4@solarray.com> Article 110.26 covering clearances in front of electrical equipment applies.  I worked on a couple like that, and I didn't like it. Very hard to move the batteries, and Combined with H2S, you are in what OSHA considers a confined hazardous space. Another way to use that crawl space is to build a trap door access from the floor above.  This can work really nicely, and put the batteries right under the inverter without violating article 110.26.  I think I saw a system that either Allan Sindelar or Windy Dankoff did like that. I've tried it a few times, and everyone (customers and inspectors) was happy.  Here's a pic of some HUPs in a floor vault just below the inverter: Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/30/18 8:37 AM, Dana wrote: > > Safe working clearance is 6’-8”. > > I have been confronted with this issue in the past taking over other’s > systems care. This is a head banger & a major safety issue if > something goes bad. If the batteries are 18-20” tall that only leaves > anther 28-30” between bottom side of the floor joist & the top of the > battery. Your face is way too close to a battery esp. if there is an > issue to address. > > The installation is bent over back-heavy move situation. I am assuming > you have a dirt or gravel floor to move across? > > It seems like a good use of space up front but the reality of the > install plagues you down the road. > > If it is WLA batteries it is the worst of situations. > > Even if this is not inspected, please avoid this situation. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.com* > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jerry Caldwell > *Sent:* Saturday, July 28, 2018 6:10 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space > > Wrenches, > > I have a customer who wants to have batteries installed in a 4' tall > crawl space / short basement. Are there any accessibility code issues > with installing batteries in a crawl space? Does the NEC address this? > > Thanks, > Jerry Caldwell > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: lkgdjlojbdoibepi.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 62652 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Jul 30 18:50:25 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 16:50:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: Batteries in 4' tall crawl space In-Reply-To: <2367c3a9-ff8c-6613-6b1d-076ab69151d4@solarray.com> References: <000b01d42812$eaba3060$c02e9120$@solarwork.com> <2367c3a9-ff8c-6613-6b1d-076ab69151d4@solarray.com> Message-ID: <004a01d42857$b521bd20$1f653760$@solarwork.com> A bit of serious carpentry if a retrofit but, freaking Brilliant idea Ray! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 1:32 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space Article 110.26 covering clearances in front of electrical equipment applies. I worked on a couple like that, and I didn't like it. Very hard to move the batteries, and Combined with H2S, you are in what OSHA considers a confined hazardous space. Another way to use that crawl space is to build a trap door access from the floor above. This can work really nicely, and put the batteries right under the inverter without violating article 110.26. I think I saw a system that either Allan Sindelar or Windy Dankoff did like that. I've tried it a few times, and everyone (customers and inspectors) was happy. Here's a pic of some HUPs in a floor vault just below the inverter: Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/30/18 8:37 AM, Dana wrote: Safe working clearance is 6’-8”. I have been confronted with this issue in the past taking over other’s systems care. This is a head banger & a major safety issue if something goes bad. If the batteries are 18-20” tall that only leaves anther 28-30” between bottom side of the floor joist & the top of the battery. Your face is way too close to a battery esp. if there is an issue to address. The installation is bent over back-heavy move situation. I am assuming you have a dirt or gravel floor to move across? It seems like a good use of space up front but the reality of the install plagues you down the road. If it is WLA batteries it is the worst of situations. Even if this is not inspected, please avoid this situation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Caldwell Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 6:10 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space Wrenches, I have a customer who wants to have batteries installed in a 4' tall crawl space / short basement. Are there any accessibility code issues with installing batteries in a crawl space? Does the NEC address this? Thanks, Jerry Caldwell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22662 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 30 20:14:19 2018 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 19:14:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase In-Reply-To: References: <688CA80B-A8B2-4541-85A2-973CAC094430@solareagle.com> <814803128.4557780.1532790474833@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000c01d42863$75be34e0$613a9ea0$@sbcglobal.net> We’ve had remarkable good response from Enphase replacing old inverters. With swelling and oozing…none have done that yet though I should make the rounds to check. In our early systems we batched as many inverters as possible under a single module (i.e. on a double row, with both pairs of inverters under the bottom row) so our return visits and replacements would be kept as simple as possible. I think it is still a good idea. We’ve had some where the trunk line connectors haven’t been tightly connected, but I think the new IQ 6 and 7’s are much more fool proof in all ways and I remain quite optimistic. Bill Dorsett “Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can” Arthur Ashe 1715 Leavenworth Manhattan, KS 66502 www.fhreec.org 785/539-1956 Office 785/564-2583 Cell wmdorsett at cox.net From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ron Young Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 2:54 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase Good to know August and Bill, I’ll put in a call today. Ron earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com On Jul 30, 2018, at 8:40 AM, August Goers > wrote: We have many M210 and M190 micros installed and deal with replacements frequently. If you're seeing physical signs of oozing or swelling, it's only a matter of time before they stop working. Enphase should replace them under warranty, especially if you explain that now is the time to get them swapped and show them the pics. August Luminalt On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 8:08 AM Bill Hennessy > wrote: Ron, Give Enphase a call; replacements are usually sent without a hassle. They have a lot of experience replacing their older inverters. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com _____ From: RM You > To: RE-wrenches > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 9:46 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] M210 Enphase Anyone have a source of M210 Enphase inverters? I have a customer who has 3 out of 12 that are leaking and as he is getting his roof re-done would like to replace those before problems occur. They are still working properly but I don’t know the likelihood of failure. I could replace them with 215’s but the trunk cable plugs are different so would have to run a separate trunk cable for just those 3 unless there is an adapter. Any suggestions wildly appreciated ;) ! Ron earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jul 30 21:37:22 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 19:37:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: Batteries in 4' tall crawl space In-Reply-To: <004a01d42857$b521bd20$1f653760$@solarwork.com> References: <000b01d42812$eaba3060$c02e9120$@solarwork.com> <2367c3a9-ff8c-6613-6b1d-076ab69151d4@solarray.com> <004a01d42857$b521bd20$1f653760$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Yea its actually Windy and Allan's ideas.  I'm only 'freaking brilliant' enough to copy the masters. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/30/18 4:50 PM, Dana wrote: > > A bit of serious carpentry if a retrofit but, freaking Brilliant idea Ray! > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.com* > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:*RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Ray > *Sent:* Monday, July 30, 2018 1:32 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space > > Article 110.26 covering clearances in front of electrical equipment > applies.  I worked on a couple like that, and I didn't like it. Very > hard to move the batteries, and Combined with H2S, you are in what > OSHA considers a confined hazardous space. > > Another way to use that crawl space is to build a trap door access > from the floor above.  This can work really nicely, and put the > batteries right under the inverter without violating article 110.26.  > I think I saw a system that either Allan Sindelar or Windy Dankoff did > like that. I've tried it a few times, and everyone (customers and > inspectors) was happy.  Here's a pic of some HUPs in a floor vault > just below the inverter: > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/30/18 8:37 AM, Dana wrote: > > Safe working clearance is 6’-8”. > > I have been confronted with this issue in the past taking over > other’s systems care. This is a head banger & a major safety issue > if something goes bad. If the batteries are 18-20” tall that only > leaves anther 28-30” between bottom side of the floor joist & the > top of the battery. Your face is way too close to a battery esp. > if there is an issue to address. > > The installation is bent over back-heavy move situation. I am > assuming you have a dirt or gravel floor to move across? > > It seems like a good use of space up front but the reality of the > install plagues you down the road. > > If it is WLA batteries it is the worst of situations. > > Even if this is not inspected, please avoid this situation. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf Of > *Jerry Caldwell > *Sent:* Saturday, July 28, 2018 6:10 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space > > Wrenches, > > I have a customer who wants to have batteries installed in a 4' > tall crawl space / short basement. Are there any accessibility > code issues with installing batteries in a crawl space? Does the > NEC address this? > > Thanks, > Jerry Caldwell > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22662 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Jul 31 09:15:12 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 09:15:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space In-Reply-To: <275db524-37ed-a829-86ce-eedc873a816d@psln.com> References: <293150612.3850685.1532823021183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <293150612.3850685.1532823021183@mail.yahoo.com> <275db524-37ed-a829-86ce-eedc873a816d@psln.com> Message-ID: Jerry, Attached is a picture of a battery box made out of red oak that houses a set of twelve Surrette Rolls 4ks25 underneath the clients stair landing. The inverter system is just off to the left and is in the "game" room. Thus the client wanted the battery box to resemble a piece of fine furniture. Well we accomplished that but the client is over 6 foot and we both always grumble when having to service these. While code is critical just imagine when you're in your 50's and 60's and still having to service these. Never again, LOL! Christopher Schaefer Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 12:19 AM, frenergy wrote: > Jerry, > > I serviced a system that (who became my) customer installed > just like that. To me, it doesn't really matter what the NEC thinks about > it. It was great because it showed me what I would *never* duplicate in > my repertoire of installs. > > Bill > > On 7/28/2018 5:10 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I have a customer who wants to have batteries installed in a 4' tall crawl > space / short basement. Are there any accessibility code issues with > installing batteries in a crawl space? Does the NEC address this? > > Thanks, > Jerry Caldwell > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_4175795908426477908_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: battboxfin.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 220142 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Ken at commonwealthsolar.com Tue Jul 31 11:19:25 2018 From: Ken at commonwealthsolar.com (Ken Schaal) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 11:19:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space In-Reply-To: References: <293150612.3850685.1532823021183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <293150612.3850685.1532823021183@mail.yahoo.com> <275db524-37ed-a829-86ce-eedc873a816d@psln.com> Message-ID: I have a set of AGM's installed near the inverter, on a roll out dolly, under the landing, up 5 steps from the garage to the 1st fl.. Another set of AGM's in a 4-5' crawl space. Was a bit of a tussle last year to replace those four, but then I was 72 with achy knees. 8 ' from access door to batteries. White, reinforced vapor barrier closed crawl space. No ignition source like water heater. Inverter mounted high on wall adjoining batteries. SCP in kitchen for info. Ken Schaal Commonwealthsolar.com On Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 10:21 AM Chris Schaefer wrote: > Jerry, > > Attached is a picture of a battery box made out of red oak that houses a > set of twelve Surrette Rolls 4ks25 underneath the clients stair landing. > The inverter system is just off to the left and is in the "game" room. Thus > the client wanted the battery box to resemble a piece of fine furniture. > Well we accomplished that but the client is over 6 foot and we both > always grumble when having to service these. While code is critical just > imagine when you're in your 50's and 60's and still having to service > these. Never again, LOL! > > Christopher Schaefer > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 12:19 AM, frenergy wrote: > >> Jerry, >> >> I serviced a system that (who became my) customer installed >> just like that. To me, it doesn't really matter what the NEC thinks about >> it. It was great because it showed me what I would *never* duplicate in >> my repertoire of installs. >> >> Bill >> >> On 7/28/2018 5:10 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: >> >> Wrenches, >> >> I have a customer who wants to have batteries installed in a 4' tall >> crawl space / short basement. Are there any accessibility code issues with >> installing batteries in a crawl space? Does the NEC address this? >> >> Thanks, >> Jerry Caldwell >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net >> >> >> >> Virus-free. >> www.avast.com >> >> <#m_6716287820509096766_m_4175795908426477908_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Jul 31 13:06:14 2018 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 10:06:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space In-Reply-To: References: <293150612.3850685.1532823021183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <293150612.3850685.1532823021183@mail.yahoo.com> <275db524-37ed-a829-86ce-eedc873a816d@psln.com> Message-ID: Hello Wrenches... Since Ken brought it up.... Inverters are the most common of the ignition sources, with loose connections being a close second... Inside each inverter/charger is a transfer relay, this relay when it transfers to or from grid will spark. This sparking action can cause Hydrogen gas to ignite. If there is over 1% by volume of hydrogen gas in the room, cubby or where ever this is installed the relay arching can cause the hydrogen to ignite. This will flame out, much like lighting gunpowder, or gasoline fumes. The flame will follow the hydrogen back to the source (The battery) and once it gets inside the battery it will find compression, as the hydrogen ignites inside the battery that compression can/will cause the battery top to blow off... Here are some examples of what it looks like when you have a hydrogen Ignition... https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/17H274ArR99FejHqCurn_9-hgJDSegPOv?usp=sharing . The number one way to prevent this is to put enough air flow thru the room to remove the hydrogen gas before it can ignite. Also Hydrogen gas is very corrosive... I still don't know why people install inverter/charge controller right above battery banks, I've seen charge controllers installed right above the battery bank that any non-conformal coated connection was corroded due to hydrogen gasses. I've found that it's always best to enclose any battery bank in some box and at the highest point in the box put in a fan to remove the hydrogen from the box when the battery voltage gets above 2.25vpc/13.4v/26.8v/54v. This is a pretty good article on calculating gassing from a battery bank. http://giantbatteryco.com/GLOSSARY/Calculate.Industrial.Battery.Hydrogen.Gas.Emission.html Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 9:18 AM Ken Schaal wrote: > I have a set of AGM's installed near the inverter, on a roll out dolly, > under the landing, up 5 steps from the garage to the 1st fl.. > Another set of AGM's in a 4-5' crawl space. Was a bit of a tussle last > year to replace those four, but then I was 72 with achy knees. 8 ' from > access door to batteries. White, reinforced vapor barrier closed crawl > space. No ignition source like water heater. > > Inverter mounted high on wall adjoining batteries. > SCP in kitchen for info. > Ken Schaal > Commonwealthsolar.com > > > On Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 10:21 AM Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> Jerry, >> >> Attached is a picture of a battery box made out of red oak that houses a >> set of twelve Surrette Rolls 4ks25 underneath the clients stair landing. >> The inverter system is just off to the left and is in the "game" room. Thus >> the client wanted the battery box to resemble a piece of fine furniture. >> Well we accomplished that but the client is over 6 foot and we both >> always grumble when having to service these. While code is critical just >> imagine when you're in your 50's and 60's and still having to service >> these. Never again, LOL! >> >> Christopher Schaefer >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 12:19 AM, frenergy wrote: >> >>> Jerry, >>> >>> I serviced a system that (who became my) customer installed >>> just like that. To me, it doesn't really matter what the NEC thinks about >>> it. It was great because it showed me what I would *never* duplicate in >>> my repertoire of installs. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> On 7/28/2018 5:10 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> I have a customer who wants to have batteries installed in a 4' tall >>> crawl space / short basement. Are there any accessibility code issues with >>> installing batteries in a crawl space? Does the NEC address this? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Jerry Caldwell >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> >>> Virus-free. >>> www.avast.com >>> >>> <#m_1083934589469718641_m_6716287820509096766_m_4175795908426477908_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ken at commonwealthsolar.com Tue Jul 31 16:14:43 2018 From: Ken at commonwealthsolar.com (Ken Schaal) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 16:14:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space In-Reply-To: References: <293150612.3850685.1532823021183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <293150612.3850685.1532823021183@mail.yahoo.com> <275db524-37ed-a829-86ce-eedc873a816d@psln.com> Message-ID: And thank you Steve for reminding folks of all those nasty effects of outgassing hydrogen..I figured someone would, necessarily. These are sealed AGM, which I realize is not a guarantee of no hydrogen , but certainly not a constant hazzard. ALSO.. .these are large spaces...full length of house crawl and frequently used garage. I tend to worry a bit more about my own bank of 4 250 AH ea. AGM, in a battery box of fiber cement board, under the inverter...no choice. In my case tho, it's in a 12' sq.basement , 6 steps down from the sunroom, and there is no door. So plenty of ventilation. ... What kinds of problems have wrenches had with AGM failure leading to significant outgassing? ? My Deka batteries are about 8 years old and are losing capacity, so looking to replace at some point....there have been a couple events over those years when they got a good workout, but not to the point of abuse. Generator when needed, 3.4 kw pv array, good sun. Thanks, ken On Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 1:57 PM Steve Higgins wrote: > Hello Wrenches... > > Since Ken brought it up.... > > Inverters are the most common of the ignition sources, with loose > connections being a close second... Inside each inverter/charger is a > transfer relay, this relay when it transfers to or from grid will spark. > This sparking action can cause Hydrogen gas to ignite. > > If there is over 1% by volume of hydrogen gas in the room, cubby or where > ever this is installed the relay arching can cause the hydrogen to ignite. > > This will flame out, much like lighting gunpowder, or gasoline fumes. > The flame will follow the hydrogen back to the source (The battery) and > once it gets inside the battery it will find compression, as the hydrogen > ignites inside the battery that compression can/will cause the battery top > to blow off... > > Here are some examples of what it looks like when you have a hydrogen > Ignition... > > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/17H274ArR99FejHqCurn_9-hgJDSegPOv?usp=sharing > . > > The number one way to prevent this is to put enough air flow thru the room > to remove the hydrogen gas before it can ignite. > > Also Hydrogen gas is very corrosive... I still don't know why people > install inverter/charge controller right above battery banks, I've seen > charge controllers installed right above the battery bank that any > non-conformal coated connection was corroded due to hydrogen gasses. > > I've found that it's always best to enclose any battery bank in some box > and at the highest point in the box put in a fan to remove the hydrogen > from the box when the battery voltage gets above 2.25vpc/13.4v/26.8v/54v. > > This is a pretty good article on calculating gassing from a battery bank. > > > http://giantbatteryco.com/GLOSSARY/Calculate.Industrial.Battery.Hydrogen.Gas.Emission.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 9:18 AM Ken Schaal > wrote: > >> I have a set of AGM's installed near the inverter, on a roll out dolly, >> under the landing, up 5 steps from the garage to the 1st fl.. >> Another set of AGM's in a 4-5' crawl space. Was a bit of a tussle last >> year to replace those four, but then I was 72 with achy knees. 8 ' from >> access door to batteries. White, reinforced vapor barrier closed crawl >> space. No ignition source like water heater. >> >> Inverter mounted high on wall adjoining batteries. >> SCP in kitchen for info. >> Ken Schaal >> Commonwealthsolar.com >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 10:21 AM Chris Schaefer >> wrote: >> >>> Jerry, >>> >>> Attached is a picture of a battery box made out of red oak that houses a >>> set of twelve Surrette Rolls 4ks25 underneath the clients stair landing. >>> The inverter system is just off to the left and is in the "game" room. Thus >>> the client wanted the battery box to resemble a piece of fine furniture. >>> Well we accomplished that but the client is over 6 foot and we both >>> always grumble when having to service these. While code is critical just >>> imagine when you're in your 50's and 60's and still having to service >>> these. Never again, LOL! >>> >>> Christopher Schaefer >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> >>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >>> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> * >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 12:19 AM, frenergy wrote: >>> >>>> Jerry, >>>> >>>> I serviced a system that (who became my) customer installed >>>> just like that. To me, it doesn't really matter what the NEC thinks about >>>> it. It was great because it showed me what I would *never* duplicate >>>> in my repertoire of installs. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> On 7/28/2018 5:10 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: >>>> >>>> Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I have a customer who wants to have batteries installed in a 4' tall >>>> crawl space / short basement. Are there any accessibility code issues with >>>> installing batteries in a crawl space? Does the NEC address this? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Jerry Caldwell >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Feather River Solar Electric >>>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>>> 4291 Nelson St. >>>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>>> 530.284.7849 >>>> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Virus-free. >>>> www.avast.com >>>> >>>> <#m_5694868012574544696_m_1083934589469718641_m_6716287820509096766_m_4175795908426477908_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> >>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >>> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> * >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Jul 31 21:10:27 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 19:10:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space In-Reply-To: References: <293150612.3850685.1532823021183.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <293150612.3850685.1532823021183@mail.yahoo.com> <275db524-37ed-a829-86ce-eedc873a816d@psln.com> Message-ID: <7969f881-926c-a402-5a12-f2a6d9e9b0b6@solarray.com> I've seen several instances with AGMs, where a dead cell overheated and blew the top of the case off the battery.  Looked pretty bad, but I wasn't there when they blew.  I think the prevention is to regularly check separate battery voltages to identify weak or dying cells before they blow.   8 years on Dekas that are losing capacity is probably getting close to time to replace. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/31/18 2:14 PM, Ken Schaal wrote: > And thank you Steve for reminding folks of all those nasty effects of > outgassing hydrogen..I figured someone would, necessarily. > These are sealed AGM, which I realize is not a guarantee of no > hydrogen , but certainly not a constant hazzard. ALSO.. > .these are large spaces...full length of house crawl  and frequently > used garage. I tend to worry a bit more about my own bank of 4 250 AH > ea. AGM, in a battery box of fiber cement board, under the > inverter...no choice. > In my case tho, it's in a 12' sq.basement , 6 steps down from the > sunroom, and there is no door. So plenty of ventilation. ... > What kinds of problems have wrenches had with AGM failure leading to > significant outgassing? ? > My Deka batteries are about 8 years old and are losing capacity, so > looking to replace at some point....there have been a couple events > over those years when they got a good workout, but not to the point of > abuse. Generator when needed, 3.4 kw pv array, good sun. > Thanks, ken > > > > On Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 1:57 PM Steve Higgins > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches... > > Since Ken brought it up.... > > Inverters are the most common of the ignition sources, with loose > connections being a close second...  Inside each inverter/charger > is a transfer relay, this relay when it transfers to or from grid > will spark.  This sparking action can cause Hydrogen gas to ignite. > > If there is over 1% by volume of hydrogen gas in the room, cubby > or where ever this is installed the relay arching can cause the > hydrogen to ignite. > > This will flame out, much like lighting gunpowder, or gasoline > fumes.   The flame will follow the hydrogen back to the source > (The battery) and once it gets inside the battery it will find > compression, as the hydrogen ignites inside the battery that > compression can/will cause the battery top to blow off... > > Here are some examples of what it looks like when you have a > hydrogen Ignition... > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/17H274ArR99FejHqCurn_9-hgJDSegPOv?usp=sharing. > > The number one way to prevent this is to put enough air flow thru > the room to remove the hydrogen gas before it can ignite. > > Also Hydrogen gas is very corrosive... I still don't know why > people install inverter/charge controller right above battery > banks,  I've seen charge controllers installed right above the > battery bank that any non-conformal coated connection was corroded > due to hydrogen gasses. > > I've found that it's always best to enclose any battery bank in > some box and at the highest point in the box put in a fan to > remove the hydrogen from the box when the battery voltage gets > above 2.25vpc/13.4v/26.8v/54v. > > This is a pretty good article on calculating gassing from a > battery bank. > > http://giantbatteryco.com/GLOSSARY/Calculate.Industrial.Battery.Hydrogen.Gas.Emission.html > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t+1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f+1.902.597.8447 esteve at surrette.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended > only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary > and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution > or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this > information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, > please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and > all copies. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 9:18 AM Ken Schaal > > wrote: > > I have a set of AGM's installed near the inverter, on a roll > out dolly, under the landing, up 5 steps from the garage to > the 1st fl.. > Another set of AGM's in a 4-5' crawl space.  Was a bit of a > tussle last year to replace those four, but then I was 72 with > achy knees.  8 ' from access door to batteries. White, > reinforced vapor barrier  closed crawl space. No ignition > source like water heater. > > Inverter mounted high on wall adjoining batteries. > SCP in kitchen for info. > Ken Schaal > Commonwealthsolar.com > > > On Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 10:21 AM Chris Schaefer > > > wrote: > > Jerry, > > Attached is a picture of a battery box made out of red oak > that houses a set of twelve Surrette Rolls 4ks25 > underneath the clients stair landing. The inverter system > is just off to the left and is in the "game" room. Thus > the client wanted the battery box to resemble a piece of > fine furniture. Well we accomplished that but the client > is over 6 foot and we both always grumble when having to > service these. While code is critical just imagine when > you're in your 50's and 60's and still having to service > these. Never again, LOL! > > Christopher Schaefer > > Chris Schaefer’s > > /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ > E-mail:chris at solarandwindfx.com > / > > / > / > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, > once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take > away from those who are willing to work and give to those > who would not." > > > > On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 12:19 AM, frenergy > > wrote: > > Jerry, > >             I serviced a system that (who became my) > customer installed just like that. To me, it doesn't > really matter what the NEC thinks about it. It was > great because it showed me what I would *never* > duplicate in my repertoire of installs. > > Bill > > > On 7/28/2018 5:10 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: >> Wrenches, >> >> I have a customer who wants to have batteries >> installed in a 4' tall crawl space / short basement. >> Are there any accessibility code issues with >> installing batteries in a crawl space? Does the NEC >> address this? >> >> Thanks, >> Jerry Caldwell >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > <#m_5694868012574544696_m_1083934589469718641_m_6716287820509096766_m_4175795908426477908_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ > E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > / > > / > / > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, > once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take > away from those who are willing to work and give to those > who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Aug 1 16:21:22 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2018 16:21:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space In-Reply-To: <2367c3a9-ff8c-6613-6b1d-076ab69151d4@solarray.com> References: <000b01d42812$eaba3060$c02e9120$@solarwork.com> <2367c3a9-ff8c-6613-6b1d-076ab69151d4@solarray.com> Message-ID: <007701d429d5$387c7380$a9755a80$@glbcc.com> Interesting idea, but it looks like to service them you would have to lay on your stomach and get your face right in there? Not my idea of a good time! -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 3:32 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space Article 110.26 covering clearances in front of electrical equipment applies. I worked on a couple like that, and I didn't like it. Very hard to move the batteries, and Combined with H2S, you are in what OSHA considers a confined hazardous space. Another way to use that crawl space is to build a trap door access from the floor above. This can work really nicely, and put the batteries right under the inverter without violating article 110.26. I think I saw a system that either Allan Sindelar or Windy Dankoff did like that. I've tried it a few times, and everyone (customers and inspectors) was happy. Here's a pic of some HUPs in a floor vault just below the inverter: Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/30/18 8:37 AM, Dana wrote: Safe working clearance is 6’-8”. I have been confronted with this issue in the past taking over other’s systems care. This is a head banger & a major safety issue if something goes bad. If the batteries are 18-20” tall that only leaves anther 28-30” between bottom side of the floor joist & the top of the battery. Your face is way too close to a battery esp. if there is an issue to address. The installation is bent over back-heavy move situation. I am assuming you have a dirt or gravel floor to move across? It seems like a good use of space up front but the reality of the install plagues you down the road. If it is WLA batteries it is the worst of situations. Even if this is not inspected, please avoid this situation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Caldwell Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 6:10 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space Wrenches, I have a customer who wants to have batteries installed in a 4' tall crawl space / short basement. Are there any accessibility code issues with installing batteries in a crawl space? Does the NEC address this? Thanks, Jerry Caldwell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30843 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Aug 1 16:21:22 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2018 16:21:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aqueon disposal In-Reply-To: <20180727111145.7BD91108049@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <001701d4246e$4dfdace0$e9f906a0$@glbcc.com> <20180727111145.7BD91108049@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <007201d429d5$37c95020$a75bf060$@glbcc.com> We only had a single installation of the Aqueons – you know, bleeding edge stuff. We installed 12 stacks and of them, 5 stopped taking a charge after a year of operation. The entire bank was never stiff enough to work well – constantly swinging voltage that has become too wide of a swing to program the system to operate reliably or smoothly. I was not here for the installation, however in speaking with those who were, it seems that they were handled per the installation instructions. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 7:12 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aqueon disposal How many of these are going bad? Is this a major problem, or has mismanagement ruined a few? Drake At 06:54 PM 7/26/2018, you wrote: I was lucky that my local county Hazo-house took a look at the MSDS and said drop them off. The person there saw my big MSDS printout and said uh oh, but then she knew just where to look and said fine no problem drop them off. Too bad not everyone is that knowledgeable about what they are looking at. These are so much easier to move when you take them apart too. 30 lbs cell blocks. Then you have some interesting parts to do something with. Attached is a photo of my Super Aquion Gravel Tamper tool. Some of the other aluminum parts will get incorporated into one of my homemade telescopes. Brad AEE Solar On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Glenn Burt > wrote: Howdy wrenches,  Does anyone have any experience with disposing of the Aqueon battery stacks? We have a number that have failed and our local waste station is balking, regardless of how much hand-holding we provide and specifications, MSDS and manufacturer info we supply. We have been referred to the state Environmental Conservation Agency and they are discussing haz-mat and recycling requirements with no understanding of their components. Any suggestions, recommendations or experience with recycling/disposing of these batteries?  Thanks, Glenn _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="Aq GT sm.jpg" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Aq GT sm.jpg" X-Attachment-Id: f_jk35mu4a0 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Aug 1 16:28:12 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2018 16:28:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aqueon disposal In-Reply-To: References: <001701d4246e$4dfdace0$e9f906a0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <008501d429d6$2c366710$84a33530$@glbcc.com> Thanks Brad. I too tried to match up the threaded lifting bolt per their spec with pieces from McMaster for moving, and ordered eyes and nuts and adapters to do so. Went to the site yesterday expecting to use them, only to find that the lifting bolt on the stack was NOT per their spec, and it left me high and dry. Fortunately I had some 1” tubular webbing with me for plan B or C and was able to snake it under the pressure plate and used that to lift the bad stacks we had planned for that day. Turns out a good hand cart works just as well as a direct lift onto a moving dolly, so we abandoned that as well. Interesting about the 45 degrees on the quick start guide. I tend to ignore the glossy stuff and read the installation instruction manuals – 15 degrees is the only allowable tip mentioned there. Still getting pushback from the state EnCon about any liquid being disposed of at a landfill, so we may also be doing some experimental disassembly… Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bradley Bassett Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 9:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aqueon disposal They do not spill liquid when turned up side down, the valve only opens on high pressure. But there could be free liquid inside that would escape if they are broken. When I hired a couple of strong guys to move mine into place we tried using the eye and a bar through it, but that did not work well. One would need to find a way to prevent the eye from sliding on the bar. A bloody hand was had by one of the guys. They ended up using a hand truck. The attached document shows that you can tilt them up to 45° for up to one hour. My eye has moved on, I think I bought it from McMaster-Carr. I had to get a male threaded eye and coupling nut, they did not have a female threaded eye that fit. The cell packs also make good shop weights, very flat on bottom, just don't drop them. I kept a few for the purpose. Brad On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 5:00 PM, Rick Brown > wrote: Quite resourceful, Brad. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 On Jul 26, 2018, at 6:54 PM, Bradley Bassett > wrote: I was lucky that my local county Hazo-house took a look at the MSDS and said drop them off. The person there saw my big MSDS printout and said uh oh, but then she knew just where to look and said fine no problem drop them off. Too bad not everyone is that knowledgeable about what they are looking at. These are so much easier to move when you take them apart too. 30 lbs cell blocks. Then you have some interesting parts to do something with. Attached is a photo of my Super Aquion Gravel Tamper tool. Some of the other aluminum parts will get incorporated into one of my homemade telescopes. Brad AEE Solar On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Glenn Burt > wrote: Howdy wrenches, Does anyone have any experience with disposing of the Aqueon battery stacks? We have a number that have failed and our local waste station is balking, regardless of how much hand-holding we provide and specifications, MSDS and manufacturer info we supply. We have been referred to the state Environmental Conservation Agency and they are discussing haz-mat and recycling requirements with no understanding of their components. Any suggestions, recommendations or experience with recycling/disposing of these batteries? Thanks, Glenn _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed Aug 1 17:01:31 2018 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2018 16:01:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar resale value Message-ID: Greetings wrenches, My apologies if this is out of topic range for this group. I have a client that has 3 grid tied systems and one grid tie with battery backup system. The systems are of varying ages. She is planning to sell her home and wants to know how much value to add to the asking price. Do any of you have a formula for computing fair market value of these systems? Thanks, Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tom at solar-biz.com Wed Aug 1 18:43:29 2018 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2018 22:43:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion disposal Message-ID: We had some random 6 volt tray failures from 48 volt Aspens as well, (making the whole stack look bad, but it was bad MC4 connections. So we just charged the low trays (6 volts) individually and brought them up. There does however seem to be poor series connections in the stacks and occasional goo at the connectors, no explanation. We too had an installer unstack (unbolt) a whole set and now they're all trash. Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300] Your 5-star rating really matters to us. Click to rate! Solar Biz(tm) team works hard to provide you the best customer service. If we don't deserve a 5-star rating, please contact us directly. We'll do what it takes to win your approval. Please note my new E-Mail E-Mail: tom at solar-biz.com Main Number: 888-826-0939 Panama Office: 507-836-5588 X 122 Direct Toll Free: 888-503-6772 International: 575-539-2111 X 122 SKYPE Address: thesolarbiz (e-mail first) I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 6:12 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aqueon disposal How many of these are going bad? Is this a major problem, or has mismanagement ruined a few? Drake At 06:54 PM 7/26/2018, you wrote: I was lucky that my local county Hazo-house took a look at the MSDS and said drop them off. The person there saw my big MSDS printout and said uh oh, but then she knew just where to look and said fine no problem drop them off. Too bad not everyone is that knowledgeable about what they are looking at. These are so much easier to move when you take them apart too. 30 lbs cell blocks. Then you have some interesting parts to do something with. Attached is a photo of my Super Aquion Gravel Tamper tool. Some of the other aluminum parts will get incorporated into one of my homemade telescopes. Brad AEE Solar On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 4:22 PM, Glenn Burt > wrote: Howdy wrenches,  Does anyone have any experience with disposing of the Aqueon battery stacks? We have a number that have failed and our local waste station is balking, regardless of how much hand-holding we provide and specifications, MSDS and manufacturer info we supply. We have been referred to the state Environmental Conservation Agency and they are discussing haz-mat and recycling requirements with no understanding of their components. Any suggestions, recommendations or experience with recycling/disposing of these batteries?  Thanks, Glenn _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="Aq GT sm.jpg" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Aq GT sm.jpg" X-Attachment-Id: f_jk35mu4a0 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5986 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From mike at pveducation.com Wed Aug 1 20:04:11 2018 From: mike at pveducation.com (Michael Howell (mike@PVeducation.com)) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2018 20:04:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar resale value In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Try https://www.pvvalue.com On Wed, Aug 1, 2018, 5:01 PM Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Greetings wrenches, > > My apologies if this is out of topic range for this group. > > I have a client that has 3 grid tied systems and one grid tie with battery > backup system. The systems are of varying ages. She is planning to sell > her home and wants to know how much value to add to the asking price. Do > any of you have a formula for computing fair market value of these systems? > > Thanks, > Kris > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Aug 2 00:22:56 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2018 22:22:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space In-Reply-To: <007701d429d5$387c7380$a9755a80$@glbcc.com> References: <000b01d42812$eaba3060$c02e9120$@solarwork.com> <2367c3a9-ff8c-6613-6b1d-076ab69151d4@solarray.com> <007701d429d5$387c7380$a9755a80$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <8e083a9c-6a43-e344-aa3b-e6d22be0167d@solarray.com> Never laid on my stomach, I just have kneel pad I use for lots of stuff but it works good here too.  I never get my face that close to the battery any way. Usually 2 to 3 ft is good. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/1/18 2:21 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Interesting idea, but it looks like to service them you would have to > lay on your stomach and get your face right in there? Not my idea of a > good time! > > -Glenn > > *From:*RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Ray > *Sent:* Monday, July 30, 2018 3:32 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space > > Article 110.26 covering clearances in front of electrical equipment > applies.  I worked on a couple like that, and I didn't like it. Very > hard to move the batteries, and Combined with H2S, you are in what > OSHA considers a confined hazardous space. > > Another way to use that crawl space is to build a trap door access > from the floor above.  This can work really nicely, and put the > batteries right under the inverter without violating article 110.26.  > I think I saw a system that either Allan Sindelar or Windy Dankoff did > like that. I've tried it a few times, and everyone (customers and > inspectors) was happy. Here's a pic of some HUPs in a floor vault just > below the inverter: > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/30/18 8:37 AM, Dana wrote: > > Safe working clearance is 6’-8”. > > I have been confronted with this issue in the past taking over > other’s systems care. This is a head banger & a major safety issue > if something goes bad. If the batteries are 18-20” tall that only > leaves anther 28-30” between bottom side of the floor joist & the > top of the battery. Your face is way too close to a battery esp. > if there is an issue to address. > > The installation is bent over back-heavy move situation. I am > assuming you have a dirt or gravel floor to move across? > > It seems like a good use of space up front but the reality of the > install plagues you down the road. > > If it is WLA batteries it is the worst of situations. > > Even if this is not inspected, please avoid this situation. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf Of > *Jerry Caldwell > *Sent:* Saturday, July 28, 2018 6:10 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space > > Wrenches, > > I have a customer who wants to have batteries installed in a 4' > tall crawl space / short basement. Are there any accessibility > code issues with installing batteries in a crawl space? Does the > NEC address this? > > Thanks, > Jerry Caldwell > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30843 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 22:16:37 2018 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2018 02:16:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing seam clamps References: <1154668216.1406169.1533262597839.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1154668216.1406169.1533262597839@mail.yahoo.com> Wrenches, Has anyone tried the new S-5 clamps (S-5 PV Kit 2.0)? or this product http://www.solattach.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Standing-Seem-Installation-Description2.pdf Any other advice or thoughts on standing seam clamp products? Thanks, Jerry Caldwell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 22:12:04 2018 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2018 02:12:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space In-Reply-To: <8e083a9c-6a43-e344-aa3b-e6d22be0167d@solarray.com> References: <000b01d42812$eaba3060$c02e9120$@solarwork.com> <2367c3a9-ff8c-6613-6b1d-076ab69151d4@solarray.com> <007701d429d5$387c7380$a9755a80$@glbcc.com> <8e083a9c-6a43-e344-aa3b-e6d22be0167d@solarray.com> Message-ID: <2028274412.1386539.1533262325088@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for the advice everyone. These would be sealed AGM batteries. The access issues are definitely food for thought. Cheers, Jerry On Wednesday, August 1, 2018, 10:30:36 PM PDT, Ray wrote: Never laid on my stomach, I just have kneel pad I use for lots of stuff but it works good here too.  I never get my face that close to the battery any way. Usually 2 to 3 ft is good. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/1/18 2:21 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: #yiv2169959718 #yiv2169959718 -- _filtered #yiv2169959718 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2169959718 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2169959718 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2169959718 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2169959718 {font-family:Webdings;panose-1:5 3 1 2 1 5 9 6 7 3;} _filtered #yiv2169959718 {panose-1:2 11 5 2 2 2 2 2 2 4;}#yiv2169959718 #yiv2169959718 p.yiv2169959718MsoNormal, #yiv2169959718 li.yiv2169959718MsoNormal, #yiv2169959718 div.yiv2169959718MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;}#yiv2169959718 a:link, #yiv2169959718 span.yiv2169959718MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2169959718 a:visited, #yiv2169959718 span.yiv2169959718MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv2169959718 pre {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;color:black;}#yiv2169959718 p.yiv2169959718msonormal0, #yiv2169959718 li.yiv2169959718msonormal0, #yiv2169959718 div.yiv2169959718msonormal0 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;}#yiv2169959718 span.yiv2169959718HTMLPreformattedChar {font-family:Consolas;color:black;}#yiv2169959718 span.yiv2169959718EmailStyle21 {font-family:sans-serif;color:black;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none none;}#yiv2169959718 span.yiv2169959718EmailStyle22 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv2169959718 .yiv2169959718MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv2169959718 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv2169959718 div.yiv2169959718WordSection1 {}#yiv2169959718 Interesting idea, but it looks like to service them you would have to lay on your stomach and get your face right in there? Not my idea of a good time! -Glenn   From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 3:32 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space   Article 110.26 covering clearances in front of electrical equipment applies.  I worked on a couple like that, and I didn't like it. Very hard to move the batteries, and Combined with H2S, you are in what OSHA considers a confined hazardous space.  Another way to use that crawl space is to build a trap door access from the floor above.  This can work really nicely, and put the batteries right under the inverter without violating article 110.26.  I think I saw a system that either Allan Sindelar or Windy Dankoff did like that. I've tried it a few times, and everyone (customers and inspectors) was happy.  Here's a pic of some HUPs in a floor vault just below the inverter:   Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/30/18 8:37 AM, Dana wrote: Safe working clearance is 6’-8”. I have been confronted with this issue in the past taking over other’s systems care. This is a head banger & a major safety issue if something goes bad. If the batteries are 18-20” tall that only leaves anther 28-30” between bottom side of the floor joist & the top of the battery. Your face is way too close to a battery esp. if there is an issue to address. The installation is bent over back-heavy move situation. I am assuming you have a dirt or gravel floor to move across? It seems like a good use of space up front but the reality of the install plagues you down the road. If it is WLA batteries it is the worst of situations.   Even if this is not inspected, please avoid this situation.   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136                       www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  P Please consider the environment before printing this email.     From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Caldwell Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 6:10 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space   Wrenches,   I have a customer who wants to have batteries installed in a 4' tall crawl space / short basement. Are there any accessibility code issues with installing batteries in a crawl space? Does the NEC address this?   Thanks, Jerry Caldwell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance   List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org   Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org   List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html   List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm   Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org     _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30843 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Aug 3 11:02:38 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2018 08:02:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space In-Reply-To: <2028274412.1386539.1533262325088@mail.yahoo.com> References: <000b01d42812$eaba3060$c02e9120$@solarwork.com> <2367c3a9-ff8c-6613-6b1d-076ab69151d4@solarray.com> <007701d429d5$387c7380$a9755a80$@glbcc.com> <8e083a9c-6a43-e344-aa3b-e6d22be0167d@solarray.com> <2028274412.1386539.1533262325088@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7fd0b7dd8135354955a4f88fa36b0afb@127.0.0.1> Another way to do this that I often use for Offgrid is to build a small slab that a battery van can get to on an outside wall of the house. Pick a wall of the house that this will not be an eyesore. Build up a 2 x6 wall with a removable top and side. In the summer, a fan ventilates it outdoors. In places where it is cold, the wall into the crawlspace, from the new box, is open and the batteries are at the temperature of the crawlspace. No bending or cramped conditions and easy to replace batteries. Easy access for fire people to shut down. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 02:12:04 +0000 (UTC), Jerry Caldwell wrote: Thanks for the advice everyone. These would be sealed AGM batteries. The access issues are definitely food for thought. Cheers, Jerry On Wednesday, August 1, 2018, 10:30:36 PM PDT, Ray wrote: Never laid on my stomach, I just have kneel pad I use for lots of stuff but it works good here too. I never get my face that close to the battery any way. Usually 2 to 3 ft is good. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/1/18 2:21 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: Interesting idea, but it looks like to service them you would have to lay on your stomach and get your face right in there? Not my idea of a good time! -Glenn FROM: RE-wrenches [3] ON BEHALF OF Ray SENT: Monday, July 30, 2018 3:32 PM TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space Article 110.26 covering clearances in front of electrical equipment applies. I worked on a couple like that, and I didn't like it. Very hard to move the batteries, and Combined with H2S, you are in what OSHA considers a confined hazardous space. Another way to use that crawl space is to build a trap door access from the floor above. This can work really nicely, and put the batteries right under the inverter without violating article 110.26. I think I saw a system that either Allan Sindelar or Windy Dankoff did like that. I've tried it a few times, and everyone (customers and inspectors) was happy. Here's a pic of some HUPs in a floor vault just below the inverter: Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/30/18 8:37 AM, Dana wrote: Safe working clearance is 6'-8". I have been confronted with this issue in the past taking over other's systems care. This is a head banger & a major safety issue if something goes bad. If the batteries are 18-20" tall that only leaves anther 28-30" between bottom side of the floor joist ">The installation is bent over back-heavy move situation. I am assuming you have a dirt or gravel floor to move across? It seems like a good use of space up front but the reality of the install plagues you down the road. If it is WLA batteries it is the worst of situations. Even if this is not inspected, please avoid this situation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz [5] "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. FROM: RE-wrenches [6] ON BEHALF OF Jerry Caldwell SENT: Saturday, July 28, 2018 6:10 PM TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space Wrenches, I have a customer who wants to have batteries installed in a 4' tall crawl space / short basement. Are there any accessibility code issues with installing batteries in a crawl space? Does the NEC address this? Thanks, Jerry Caldwell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [20] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://www.solarwork.biz [6] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [16] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [18] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [19] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30843 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Aug 3 11:11:49 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2018 09:11:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space In-Reply-To: <8e083a9c-6a43-e344-aa3b-e6d22be0167d@solarray.com> References: <000b01d42812$eaba3060$c02e9120$@solarwork.com> <2367c3a9-ff8c-6613-6b1d-076ab69151d4@solarray.com> <007701d429d5$387c7380$a9755a80$@glbcc.com> <8e083a9c-6a43-e344-aa3b-e6d22be0167d@solarray.com> Message-ID: <005201d42b3c$4e578e20$eb06aa60$@solarwork.com> To save my back I install watering systems with a flip cap for taking samples to check the SG on a refractometer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2018 10:23 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space Never laid on my stomach, I just have kneel pad I use for lots of stuff but it works good here too. I never get my face that close to the battery any way. Usually 2 to 3 ft is good. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/1/18 2:21 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: Interesting idea, but it looks like to service them you would have to lay on your stomach and get your face right in there? Not my idea of a good time! -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 3:32 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space Article 110.26 covering clearances in front of electrical equipment applies. I worked on a couple like that, and I didn't like it. Very hard to move the batteries, and Combined with H2S, you are in what OSHA considers a confined hazardous space. Another way to use that crawl space is to build a trap door access from the floor above. This can work really nicely, and put the batteries right under the inverter without violating article 110.26. I think I saw a system that either Allan Sindelar or Windy Dankoff did like that. I've tried it a few times, and everyone (customers and inspectors) was happy. Here's a pic of some HUPs in a floor vault just below the inverter: Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/30/18 8:37 AM, Dana wrote: Safe working clearance is 6’-8”. I have been confronted with this issue in the past taking over other’s systems care. This is a head banger & a major safety issue if something goes bad. If the batteries are 18-20” tall that only leaves anther 28-30” between bottom side of the floor joist & the top of the battery. Your face is way too close to a battery esp. if there is an issue to address. The installation is bent over back-heavy move situation. I am assuming you have a dirt or gravel floor to move across? It seems like a good use of space up front but the reality of the install plagues you down the road. If it is WLA batteries it is the worst of situations. Even if this is not inspected, please avoid this situation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Caldwell Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 6:10 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in 4' tall crawl space Wrenches, I have a customer who wants to have batteries installed in a 4' tall crawl space / short basement. Are there any accessibility code issues with installing batteries in a crawl space? Does the NEC address this? Thanks, Jerry Caldwell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22614 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Sat Aug 4 17:04:41 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2018 17:04:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters Message-ID: Good Day All, Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp sensors for the older Trace inverters. I'm looking for potential replacements. Anyone had any luck using another vendor or do you have a direct replacement source for these? Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Sat Aug 4 18:25:36 2018 From: solar1online at charter.net (solar1online at charter.net) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2018 17:25:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters Message-ID: Fellow wrenches, Am I missing something? Other than the way the sensor connects to the inverter/CC/??? is this not simply a thermistor/other discrete component with the appropriate output? Yes, it is potted for preservation in the potentially acid vapor environment, and provided with glue when the attachment is other than the terminal and again, the connector is specific to each manufacturer. Thanks for your input, Bill LoeschSolar 1Saint Louis, MO314 631 1094 -----------------------------------------From: "Chris Schaefer" To: "re-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Saturday August 4 2018 4:04:47PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters Good Day All, Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp sensors for the older Trace inverters. I'm looking for potential replacements. Anyone had any luck using another vendor or do you have a direct replacement source for these? Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s [1] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [2] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [3]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Links: ------ [1] http://mail2.spectrum.net/http:www.solarandwindfx.com [2] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [3] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Sat Aug 4 18:59:29 2018 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2018 18:59:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill the BTS are generally different. You definitely don't want interchange BTS's... If you use a Midnite sensor with an Outback itll appear as a very hot battery and the charger won't charge. There are just differance between the varistor that is potted for most companies. On Sat, Aug 4, 2018, 6:25 PM wrote: > Fellow wrenches, > > Am I missing something? Other than the way the sensor connects to the > inverter/CC/??? is this not simply a thermistor/other discrete component > with the appropriate output? Yes, it is potted for preservation in the > potentially acid vapor environment, and provided with glue when the > attachment is other than the terminal and again, the connector is specific > to each manufacturer. > > Thanks for your input, > > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 > Saint Louis, MO > 314 631 1094 > > ----------------------------------------- > From: "Chris Schaefer" > To: "re-wrenches" > Cc: > Sent: Saturday August 4 2018 4:04:47PM > Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex > inverters > > Good Day All, > > Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp sensors for the > older Trace inverters. I'm looking for potential replacements. Anyone had > any luck using another vendor or do you have a direct replacement source > for these? > > Thanks, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > [image: image] > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 **www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > *[image: image] * > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Aug 4 19:17:54 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2018 16:17:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What color wire? The old Xantrex SW border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> Bill the BTS are generally different. You definitely don't want interchange BTS's... If you use a Midnite sensor with an Outback itll appear as a very hot battery and the charger won't charge. There are just differance between the varistor that is potted for most companies. On Sat, Aug 4, 2018, 6:25 PM wrote: Fellow wrenches, Am I missing something? Other than the way the sensor connects to the inverter/CC/??? is this not simply a thermistor/other discrete component with the appropriate output? Yes, it is potted for preservation in the potentially acid vapor environment, and provided with glue when the attachment is other than the terminal and again, the connector is specific to each manufacturer. Thanks for your input, Bill Loesch Solar 1 Saint Louis, MO 314 631 1094 ----------------------------------------- From: "Chris Schaefer" To: "re-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Saturday August 4 2018 4:04:47PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters Good Day All, Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp sensors for the older Trace inverters. I'm looking for potential replacements. Anyone had any luck using another vendor or do you have a direct replacement source for these? Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [3] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [4]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] List rules ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [10] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [11] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] mailto:solar1online at charter.net [2] http://webmail.sti.net/http:www.solarandwindfx.com [3] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [4] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [11] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Aug 4 18:38:36 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2018 15:38:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D0BEA73-75BC-4807-883E-F530687D094C@gmail.com> HI Chris, Maybe someone else can confirm but I believe the OB and Midnite use the thermistors with the same values and are interchangeable. And both use same RJ-11 plug. jay peltz power > On Aug 4, 2018, at 2:04 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > > Good Day All, > > Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp sensors for the older Trace inverters. I'm looking for potential replacements. Anyone had any luck using another vendor or do you have a direct replacement source for these? > > Thanks, > Christopher- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Sun Aug 5 09:01:44 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 09:01:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's a dual labeled 1997-2002 vintage Xantrex/Trace unit and the old BTS is yellow with an RJ-11 connector. Upgrading the client to a new bank of Surrettes and in order to be warranty compliant the system must have a BTS. So what have the older, wiser wrenches done for a replacement? Does anyone have one of these lying around that I could purchase? I'll contact Xantrex/Schneider on Monday to see if they are still available since they do still sell the C60 CC and perhaps the newer BTS are compatible. Thanks, Christopher On Sat, Aug 4, 2018 at 7:17 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > What color wire? The old Xantrex SW & SW+ were yellow. I can't remember > the color of the Trace anymore... --Dave > > > > Bill the BTS are generally different. > > You definitely don't want interchange BTS's... If you use a Midnite sensor > with an Outback itll appear as a very hot battery and the charger won't > charge. > > There are just differance between the varistor that is potted for most > companies. > > On Sat, Aug 4, 2018, 6:25 PM wrote: > >> Fellow wrenches, >> >> Am I missing something? Other than the way the sensor connects to the >> inverter/CC/??? is this not simply a thermistor/other discrete component >> with the appropriate output? Yes, it is potted for preservation in the >> potentially acid vapor environment, and provided with glue when the >> attachment is other than the terminal and again, the connector is specific >> to each manufacturer. >> >> Thanks for your input, >> >> Bill Loesch >> Solar 1 >> Saint Louis, MO >> 314 631 1094 >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------- >> From: "Chris Schaefer" >> To: "re-wrenches" >> Cc: >> Sent: Saturday August 4 2018 4:04:47PM >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex >> inverters >> >> Good Day All, >> >> Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp sensors for the >> older Trace inverters. I'm looking for potential replacements. Anyone had >> any luck using another vendor or do you have a direct replacement source >> for these? >> >> Thanks, >> Christopher- >> >> Chris Schaefer's >> [image: image] >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 **www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> *[image: image] * >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Aug 5 14:46:46 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 12:46:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55976865-2912-a65e-5eb4-f0164652c229@solarray.com> Is this for the charge controller or the inverter?   Is it on grid or off grid?  What is the temperature variation in the room? I usually don't worry about a temp sensor on the inverter off grid, if the batteries are not seeing a big variation in temperature.  Since the inverter isn't used much for charging, except when the battery is low, I set the inverter charge voltage fairly high, and tell the customer to just use the generator to get up to 70% - 80%, then let the solar do the rest.  In this scenario the temp sensor really isn't coming into play. However, If its an on grid backup system where the inverter is involved with charging on a daily basis, then yes, the temp sensor is important, again only if the battery room is seeing more than a 20 degree variation.  Also the temp sensor wires can be repaired: cut out the bad section and use outdoor rated telephone splices with the silicone sealant, and heat shrink over that. As others mentioned, using the wrong sensor is going to cause way more trouble than its going to fix.  They have different resistance values and some have reverse logic from others.  I've seen faulty temp sensors literally cook batteries, so if you're not absolutely sure, don't connect it. I have a few old Trace sensors, but there only going to a system that really needs them.  Contact me off list. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/5/18 7:01 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > It's a dual labeled 1997-2002 vintage Xantrex/Trace unit and the old > BTS is yellow with an RJ-11 connector. Upgrading the client to a new > bank of Surrettes and in order to be warranty compliant the system > must have a BTS. So what have the older, wiser wrenches done for a > replacement? Does anyone have one of these lying around that I could > purchase? I'll contact Xantrex/Schneider on Monday to see if they are > still available since they do still sell the C60 CC and perhaps the > newer BTS are compatible. > > Thanks, > Christopher > > On Sat, Aug 4, 2018 at 7:17 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > wrote: > > What color wire? The old Xantrex SW & SW+ were yellow. I can't > remember the color of the Trace anymore...  --Dave > >> Bill the BTS are generally different. >> You definitely don't want interchange BTS's... If you use a >> Midnite sensor with an Outback itll appear as a very hot battery >> and the charger won't charge. >> There are just differance between the varistor that is potted for >> most companies. >> >> On Sat, Aug 4, 2018, 6:25 PM > > wrote: >> >> Fellow wrenches, >> Am I missing something? Other than the way the sensor >> connects to the inverter/CC/??? is this not simply a >> thermistor/other discrete component with the appropriate >> output? Yes, it is potted for preservation in the potentially >> acid vapor environment, and provided with glue when the >> attachment is other than the terminal and again, the >> connector is specific to each manufacturer. >> Thanks for your input, >> Bill Loesch >> Solar 1 >> Saint Louis, MO >> 314 631 1094 >> >> ----------------------------------------- >> >> From: "Chris Schaefer" >> To: "re-wrenches" >> Cc: >> Sent: Saturday August 4 2018 4:04:47PM >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older >> Trace/Xantrex inverters >> >> Good Day All, >> Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp >> sensors for the older Trace inverters. I'm looking for >> potential replacements. Anyone had any luck using another >> vendor or do you have a direct replacement source for these? >> Thanks, >> Christopher- >> >> Chris Schaefer's >> image >> /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ >> E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> / >> >> /image >> / >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once >> said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from >> those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com / > > / > / > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bruce4power at gmail.com Sun Aug 5 16:32:51 2018 From: bruce4power at gmail.com (Bruce Geddes) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 08:32:51 +1200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters In-Reply-To: <0D0BEA73-75BC-4807-883E-F530687D094C@gmail.com> References: <0D0BEA73-75BC-4807-883E-F530687D094C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601d42cfb$7cfe21b0$76fa6510$@gmail.com> I recall from a training seminar a long time ago that the Xantrex and Outback sensors were the same. Don’t know if that is still the case but the Midnite are definitely different values as Steve has said. Bruce Geddes PowerOn From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Sunday, 5 August 2018 10:39 a.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters HI Chris, Maybe someone else can confirm but I believe the OB and Midnite use the thermistors with the same values and are interchangeable. And both use same RJ-11 plug. jay peltz power --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Aug 6 07:23:02 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 07:23:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters In-Reply-To: <000601d42cfb$7cfe21b0$76fa6510$@gmail.com> References: <0D0BEA73-75BC-4807-883E-F530687D094C@gmail.com> <000601d42cfb$7cfe21b0$76fa6510$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ray & All, It is for an off-grid system with batteries in the basement along with an auto start generator where the clients are only there during the summer months. During winter months they keep the house at 45 degrees to avoid freezing pipes up here in Northern NY. Solar is severely undersized. Will be replacing batteries and adding solar. The original people that built the home lived there year round were energy misers while the current client that bought the place 4 years ago admit that they are energy hogs. Thus I've got some work ahead of me for sure. The bts is for the inverter and the old one was cut off and wrapped up inside the battery cable side of the inverter. While the sensor part was no where to be found. Certainly not in the battery box. Thanks, Christopher On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 4:32 PM, Bruce Geddes wrote: > I recall from a training seminar a long time ago that the Xantrex and > Outback sensors were the same. Don’t know if that is still the case but > the Midnite are definitely different values as Steve has said. > > Bruce Geddes > > PowerOn > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *jay > *Sent:* Sunday, 5 August 2018 10:39 a.m. > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex > inverters > > > > HI Chris, > > > > Maybe someone else can confirm but I believe the OB and Midnite use the > thermistors with the same values and are interchangeable. > > And both use same RJ-11 plug. > > > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-8587160756323794355_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Mon Aug 6 10:40:21 2018 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 14:40:21 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello All The Trace Battery Temp sensor has a 100 k negative coefficient. The Outback Battery temp sensor has a 10 K negative coefficient. The Outback temp senor will not work with Trace equipment. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer Sent: Saturday, August 4, 2018 2:05 PM To: re-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters Good Day All, Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp sensors for the older Trace inverters. I'm looking for potential replacements. Anyone had any luck using another vendor or do you have a direct replacement source for these? Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s [http://www.solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Solar-Wind-FX-Logo.png] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [http://solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/certs.jpg] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Aug 6 11:04:43 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2018 08:04:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23facdf298873eb5c49aef9ce165f176@127.0.0.1> I have also seen this problem when tweaking XW and CSW's ENVIRONMENT There is a "Battery Temperature Coefficient" value that is set to -84 and seems can't be changed. My battery bank's datasheet calls for -108 mV/C. When this value is changed, and saved, the message "The value could not be changed" is displayed. CAUSE Customer is using the wrong Battery Type on the XW+'s Charger Settings RESOLUTION The Battery Bank Type should be set for custom (in the custom battery settings), then the Battery Temperature Coefficient will be adjustable. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 14:40:21 +0000, Lones Tuss wrote: Hello All The Trace Battery Temp sensor has a 100 k negative coefficient. The Outback Battery temp sensor has a 10 K negative coefficient. The Outback temp senor will not work with Trace equipment. FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] ON BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer SENT: Saturday, August 4, 2018 2:05 PM TO: re-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters Good Day All, Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp sensors for the older Trace inverters. I'm looking for potential replacements. Anyone had any luck using another vendor or do you have a direct replacement source for these? Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer's [3] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com [4] ~ E-mail: _chris at solarandwindfx.com [5]_ __ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [4] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [5] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Aug 6 11:09:17 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2018 08:09:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From Schneider RESOLUTION: Product Family Xantrex Part Number Conext XW, Conext SW, TR, Truecharge2*, XC chargers*, FSW2000* 808-0232-01 Trace SW, CR*, DR, RV*, C series 130-0004-01-01 Trucharge20+/40+*, Prosine 3.0* 808-0231 RS/MS*, RV/GS series*, FSW3000*, FSW2012*, FSW3012*, Prosine 2.0* 809-0946 FDM 458* / FDM Marine* 76-0022-00 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 14:40:21 +0000, Lones Tuss wrote: Hello All The Trace Battery Temp sensor has a 100 k negative coefficient. The Outback Battery temp sensor has a 10 K negative coefficient. The Outback temp senor will not work with Trace equipment. FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] ON BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer SENT: Saturday, August 4, 2018 2:05 PM TO: re-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters Good Day All, Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp sensors for the older Trace inverters. I'm looking for potential replacements. Anyone had any luck using another vendor or do you have a direct replacement source for these? Thanks, Christopher- Chris Schaefer's [3] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com [4] ~ E-mail: _chris at solarandwindfx.com [5]_ __ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [4] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [5] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Aug 6 15:17:01 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 15:17:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To All, Since I have two Xantrex/Trace SW5548's that run my shop/office and home (offgrid) I decided to take some time early this morning to install a MidNite and Outback BTS into one of the inverters to see first hand what the results would be. Below is the results with the actual voltage @ 49.2. The compensated voltage shown on the Trace screen was; MidNite; 56.2 Outback: 55.2 While the original Trace bts returned a compensated voltage of 49.8. I did allow for a 30 minute adjustment to the environment before recording values. Thus I walked away proving to myself that you can't (as many of you have pointed out) cross use either MidNite or Outback bts on the SW. Ray thanks for the offer of the BTS but since Dave has graciously provided us with the Xantrex/Schneider p/n 130-0004-01-01 I'm going to see if I can't locate a couple through the normal vendors. Thanks everyone, Christopher On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 11:09 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > From Schneider > > *Resolution:* > Product Family Xantrex Part Number > Conext XW, Conext SW, TR, Truecharge2*, XC chargers*, FSW2000* 808-0232-01 > Trace SW, CR*, DR, RV*, C series 130-0004-01-01 > Trucharge20+/40+*, Prosine 3.0* 808-0231 > RS/MS*, RV/GS series*, FSW3000*, FSW2012*, FSW3012*, Prosine 2.0* 809-0946 > FDM 458* / FDM Marine* 76-0022-00 > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > > On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 14:40:21 +0000, Lones Tuss > wrote: > > Hello All > > The Trace Battery Temp sensor has a 100 k negative coefficient. > > The Outback Battery temp sensor has a 10 K negative coefficient. > > The Outback temp senor will not work with Trace equipment. > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer > *Sent:* Saturday, August 4, 2018 2:05 PM > *To:* re-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] battery temp sensors for older Trace/Xantrex > inverters > > > > Good Day All, > > > > Running into a lot of missing or chewed up battery temp sensors for the > older Trace inverters. I'm looking for potential replacements. Anyone had > any luck using another vendor or do you have a direct replacement source > for these? > > > > Thanks, > > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer's > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > -- > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu Aug 9 21:15:31 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 15:15:31 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex 30 kW inverter Message-ID: <029d01d43047$a2a0b780$e7e22680$@com> Hi all, I'm in need of a vintage Xantrex 30 kW (PV 30208) inverter. Anyone happen to have one or know of someone who might? Can't use a TL because the array needs to be grounded. Mahalo, marco --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 04:31:45 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 22:31:45 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex 30 kW inverter In-Reply-To: <029d01d43047$a2a0b780$e7e22680$@com> References: <029d01d43047$a2a0b780$e7e22680$@com> Message-ID: Marco Am I missing something, all arrays are grounded even in Hawaii, I have systems using the SMA Tripowers and ABB Trios, they are required to be grounded and tested as so. Now if the modules "Leak" this can cause resistance leaks in the array, its like a GFI. I have had issues with inverters in Hawaii along with other areas tripping out due to low resistance to earth, it can be the backing leaking, also from the edge of the module. SunPower Modules are still grounded just on the other side. Jerry On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 3:15 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Hi all, > > > > I’m in need of a vintage Xantrex 30 kW (PV 30208) inverter. > > > > Anyone happen to have one or know of someone who might? > > > > Can’t use a TL because the array needs to be grounded. > > > > Mahalo, > > marco > > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_2606966111131649740_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sat Aug 11 12:58:41 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 06:58:41 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex 30 kW inverter In-Reply-To: References: <029d01d43047$a2a0b780$e7e22680$@com> Message-ID: Hi Jerry, I'm talking about the need to ground one of the current carrying conductors back to earth, not the metal equipment frame. The SunPower pre-Maxeon cells required that the positive conductor be grounded. Which is not possible with TL inverters. There's no safety issue to let these older SPR arrays float. But the so called surface polarization effect equals an output loss of 25 or more percent. As transformer based inverters fail, us SunPower dealers will be in more and more of a pinch. marco On Friday, August 10, 2018, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Marco > Am I missing something, all arrays are grounded even in Hawaii, I have > systems using the SMA Tripowers and ABB Trios, they are required to be > grounded and tested as so. Now if the modules "Leak" this can cause > resistance leaks in the array, its like a GFI. I have had issues with > inverters in Hawaii along with other areas tripping out due to low > resistance to earth, it can be the backing leaking, also from the edge of > the module. SunPower Modules are still grounded just on the other side. > Jerry > > On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 3:15 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I’m in need of a vintage Xantrex 30 kW (PV 30208) inverter. >> >> >> >> Anyone happen to have one or know of someone who might? >> >> >> >> Can’t use a TL because the array needs to be grounded. >> >> >> >> Mahalo, >> >> marco >> >> >> >> >> Virus-free. >> www.avast.com >> >> <#m_-8959875205440361245_m_2606966111131649740_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 16:38:45 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 14:38:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex 30 kW inverter In-Reply-To: References: <029d01d43047$a2a0b780$e7e22680$@com> Message-ID: Hi Marco, SMA may have a solutions for this called the PV offset box. I think it would allow the negative ground without the degradation. http://files.sma.de/dl/15437/PVOFFSETBOX-DEN1444-V10web.pdf I have never used this but thought it was an interesting product. On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 2:29 PM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Hi Jerry, > > I'm talking about the need to ground one of the current carrying > conductors back to earth, not the metal equipment frame. > > The SunPower pre-Maxeon cells required that the positive conductor be > grounded. Which is not possible with TL inverters. > > There's no safety issue to let these older SPR arrays float. But the so > called surface polarization effect equals an output loss of 25 or more > percent. > > As transformer based inverters fail, us SunPower dealers will be in more > and more of a pinch. > > marco > > On Friday, August 10, 2018, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >> Marco >> Am I missing something, all arrays are grounded even in Hawaii, I have >> systems using the SMA Tripowers and ABB Trios, they are required to be >> grounded and tested as so. Now if the modules "Leak" this can cause >> resistance leaks in the array, its like a GFI. I have had issues with >> inverters in Hawaii along with other areas tripping out due to low >> resistance to earth, it can be the backing leaking, also from the edge of >> the module. SunPower Modules are still grounded just on the other side. >> Jerry >> >> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 3:15 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf >> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I’m in need of a vintage Xantrex 30 kW (PV 30208) inverter. >>> >>> >>> >>> Anyone happen to have one or know of someone who might? >>> >>> >>> >>> Can’t use a TL because the array needs to be grounded. >>> >>> >>> >>> Mahalo, >>> >>> marco >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Virus-free. >>> www.avast.com >>> >>> <#m_-328387555879471101_m_-8959875205440361245_m_2606966111131649740_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dduffield at me.com Sat Aug 11 18:23:49 2018 From: dduffield at me.com (Daniel Duffield) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 16:23:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext xw+ 6848 inverter 1.5 minute voltage increase Message-ID: <95A1513D-E57C-42CE-85CD-16D71F8A02C5@me.com> I am placing this inquiry out to see if anyone else has experienced a similar experience. An electrician friend near Taos, NM, installed a Conext XW+ 6648 inverter on a large 2nd seasonal (remote stand alone PV supplied) vacation home, (used less than 10 weeks per year), it has a large 48 VDC AGM battery (40+kW-Hr) and almost a 7.0 kW PV Array and a back-up LP gen-set. It has a Xantrex accessories : Com-Box, charge controllers, bat monitor, etc. The anomaly this system exhibits is that - when the owners are infrequently present - during each evening, for about 90 seconds - the 120vac lights get noticebly brighter. After this brief event, the lights exhibit normal behavior. No lights or appliances are functionally damaged. It is more of a nuisance than an actual problem. This usually happens between 9:30 and midnight. The timing seems to be arbitrary - as no known load either turns on or turns off in conjunction with this event. Xantrex has been consulted and the inverters firm ware has been upgraded and they even sent a replacement inverter control board, which after its replacement nothing changed. As this is quite late at night and has been happening both in winter and in summer months, it is not presently believed to be associated with the PV modules or charge controller. Conventional wisdom implies, that if there is some significant load was cycling in the background - the lights would dim - not brighten. I have never heard of anything like this and was wondering- if any had. There are no known large capacitive loads on the system. Any one seen anything similar, I was asked - as I have been doing systems in New Mexico since 1995 and I guessed it was a well/ water pressure bladder tank system related issue . . . but the installer has witnessed this, at night when the water pump and well remained off. ? Item 2) some weeks ago, it was noted on this RE-Wrenches thread that some ballast blocks, 4” x 8” x 16” were starting to suffer decomposition and a solution was sought, I guessed that this might be due to water seepage and repeated freezing and thawing. Has anyone used an inexpensive masonry sealer painted on the blocks, to stop water wicking to the concrete ballast blocks? There is very thick cinder block paint (UGL) for cinder block foundations that would be quite expensive and polyurethane is very pricey too - I would like to recommend that works successfully and is economical for existing installations rather than replacing hundreds of blocks? Thanks, Daniel O. Duffield NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional (2005) NM licensed Commercial Electrical Contractor EE98/ER01 IEEE member 23 years From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Aug 11 18:28:49 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 12:28:49 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex 30 kW inverter In-Reply-To: <029d01d43047$a2a0b780$e7e22680$@com> References: <029d01d43047$a2a0b780$e7e22680$@com> Message-ID: Marco OK, Sunpower can be an issue with the positive ground issues, I will look at which inverters we used to work with the SP 225 some time back Jerry On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 3:15 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Hi all, > > > > I’m in need of a vintage Xantrex 30 kW (PV 30208) inverter. > > > > Anyone happen to have one or know of someone who might? > > > > Can’t use a TL because the array needs to be grounded. > > > > Mahalo, > > marco > > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-4015578916638565496_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Aug 11 19:30:14 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 16:30:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext xw+ 6848 inverter 1.5 minute voltage increase In-Reply-To: <95A1513D-E57C-42CE-85CD-16D71F8A02C5@me.com> References: <95A1513D-E57C-42CE-85CD-16D71F8A02C5@me.com> Message-ID: Daniel, No, have not seen this. I would load an SD card into combox and start a logging program to monitor L1 and L2. Since Schneider replaced the inverter control board I am at a loss. Your comments seem logical to me also. What about refrigerator surge? if you still have repair number from Schneider I would see what they say also. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 16:23:49 -0600, Daniel Duffield wrote: > I am placing this inquiry out to see if anyone else has experienced a > similar experience. > > An electrician friend near Taos, NM, installed a Conext XW+ 6648 inverter > on a large 2nd seasonal (remote stand alone PV supplied) vacation home, > (used less than 10 weeks per year), it has a large 48 VDC AGM battery > (40+kW-Hr) and almost a 7.0 kW PV Array and a back-up LP gen-set. It has a > Xantrex accessories : Com-Box, charge controllers, bat monitor, etc. > The anomaly this system exhibits is that - when the owners are > infrequently present - during each evening, for about 90 seconds - the > 120vac lights get noticebly brighter. After this brief event, the lights > exhibit normal behavior. No lights or appliances are functionally damaged. > It is more of a nuisance than an actual problem. This usually happens > between 9:30 and midnight. The timing seems to be arbitrary - as no known > load either turns on or turns off in conjunction with this event. > Xantrex has been consulted and the inverters firm ware has been upgraded > and they even sent a replacement inverter control board, which after its > replacement nothing changed. > As this is quite late at night and has been happening both in winter and > in summer months, it is not presently believed to be associated with the > PV modules or charge controller. > Conventional wisdom implies, that if there is some significant load was > cycling in the background - the lights would dim - not brighten. I have > never heard of anything like this and was wondering- if any had. There are > no known large capacitive loads on the system. > Any one seen anything similar, I was asked - as I have been doing systems > in New Mexico since 1995 and I guessed it was a well/ water pressure > bladder tank system related issue . . . but the installer has witnessed > this, at night when the water pump and well remained off. ? > > Item 2) some weeks ago, it was noted on this RE-Wrenches thread that some > ballast blocks, 4” x 8” x 16” were starting to suffer decomposition and a > solution was sought, I guessed that this might be due to water seepage and > repeated freezing and thawing. > > Has anyone used an inexpensive masonry sealer painted on the blocks, to > stop water wicking to the concrete ballast blocks? There is very thick > cinder block paint (UGL) for cinder block foundations that would be quite > expensive and polyurethane is very pricey too - I would like to recommend > that works successfully and is economical for existing installations rather > than replacing hundreds of blocks? > > Thanks, > Daniel O. Duffield > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional (2005) > NM licensed Commercial Electrical Contractor EE98/ER01 > IEEE member 23 years > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Aug 13 09:04:37 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 09:04:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext xw+ 6848 inverter 1.5 minute voltage increase In-Reply-To: <95A1513D-E57C-42CE-85CD-16D71F8A02C5@me.com> References: <95A1513D-E57C-42CE-85CD-16D71F8A02C5@me.com> Message-ID: This problem might be due to a neutral connection problem in the electrical system. Loose neutral connections can put 120 V loads in series. It puts loads on both line 1 an line 2 in series for 240 V. The high resistance load (the one with the low draw) gets high voltage. At 06:23 PM 8/11/2018, you wrote: >I am placing this inquiry out to see if anyone >else has experienced a similar experience. An >electrician friend near Taos, NM, installed a >Conext XW+ 6648 inverter on a large 2nd seasonal >(remote stand alone PV supplied) vacation home, >(used less than 10 weeks per year), it has a >large 48 VDC AGM battery (40+kW-Hr) and almost a >7.0 kW PV Array and a back-up LP gen-set. It has >a Xantrex accessories : Com-Box, charge >controllers, bat monitor, etc. The anomaly this >system exhibits is that - when the owners are >infrequently present - during each evening, for >about 90 seconds - the 120vac lights get >noticebly brighter. After this brief event, the >lights exhibit normal behavior. No lights or >appliances are functionally damaged. It is more >of a nuisance than an actual problem. This >usually happens between 9:30 and midnight. The >timing seems to be arbitrary - as no known load >either turns on or turns off in conjunction with >this event. Xantrex has been consulted and the >inverters firm ware has been upgraded and they >even sent a replacement inverter control board, >which after its replacement nothing changed. As >this is quite late at night and has been >happening both in winter and in summer months, >it is not presently believed to be associated >with the PV modules or charge controller. >Conventional wisdom implies, that if there is >some significant load was cycling in the >background - the lights would dim - not >brighten. I have never heard of anything like >this and was wondering- if any had. There are no >known large capacitive loads on the system. Any >one seen anything similar, I was asked - as I >have been doing systems in New Mexico since 1995 >and I guessed it was a well/ water pressure >bladder tank system related issue . . . but >the installer has witnessed this, at night when >the water pump and well remained off. ? Item >2) some weeks ago, it was noted on this >RE-Wrenches thread that some ballast blocks, >4” x 8” x 16” were starting to suffer >decomposition and a solution was sought, I >guessed that this might be due to water seepage >and repeated freezing and thawing. Has anyone >used an inexpensive masonry sealer painted on >the blocks, to stop water wicking to the >concrete ballast blocks? There is very thick >cinder block paint (UGL) for cinder block >foundations that would be quite expensive and >polyurethane is very pricey too - I would like >to recommend that works successfully and is >economical for existing installations rather >than replacing hundreds of blocks? Thanks, >Daniel O. Duffield NABCEP Certified PV >Installation Professional (2005) NM licensed >Commercial Electrical Contractor EE98/ER01 IEEE >member 23 years >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or >update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Aug 13 11:42:05 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 08:42:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext xw+ 6848 inverter 1.5 minute voltage increase In-Reply-To: <20180813130442.3204D1054BE@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <95A1513D-E57C-42CE-85CD-16D71F8A02C5@me.com> <20180813130442.3204D1054BE@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <00ceb4d6b8722f48c2b58eacb49dde86@127.0.0.1> Good point about the neutral ! Go thru the panel/ light circuits and re-torque. Set up the combox to log L1 and L2. --Dave On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 09:04:37 -0400, Drake wrote: > This problem might be due to a neutral connection > problem in the electrical system. Loose neutral > connections can put 120 V loads in series. It > puts loads on both line 1 an line 2 in series for > 240 V. The high resistance load (the one with the low draw) gets high > voltage. > > > At 06:23 PM 8/11/2018, you wrote: >>I am placing this inquiry out to see if anyone >>else has experienced a similar experience. An >>electrician friend near Taos, NM, installed a >>Conext XW+ 6648 inverter on a large 2nd seasonal >>(remote stand alone PV supplied) vacation home, >>(used less than 10 weeks per year), it has a >>large 48 VDC AGM battery (40+kW-Hr) and almost a >>7.0 kW PV Array and a back-up LP gen-set. It has >>a Xantrex accessories : Com-Box, charge >>controllers, bat monitor, etc. The anomaly this >>system exhibits is that - when the owners are >>infrequently present - during each evening, for >>about 90 seconds - the 120vac lights get >>noticebly brighter. After this brief event, the >>lights exhibit normal behavior. No lights or >>appliances are functionally damaged. It is more >>of a nuisance than an actual problem. This >>usually happens between 9:30 and midnight. The >>timing seems to be arbitrary - as no known load >>either turns on or turns off in conjunction with >>this event. Xantrex has been consulted and the >>inverters firm ware has been upgraded and they >>even sent a replacement inverter control board, >>which after its replacement nothing changed. As >>this is quite late at night and has been >>happening both in winter and in summer months, >>it is not presently believed to be associated >>with the PV modules or charge controller. >>Conventional wisdom implies, that if there is >>some significant load was cycling in the >>background - the lights would dim - not >>brighten. I have never heard of anything like >>this and was wondering- if any had. There are no >>known large capacitive loads on the system. Any >>one seen anything similar, I was asked - as I >>have been doing systems in New Mexico since 1995 >>and I guessed it was a well/ water pressure >>bladder tank system related issue . . . but >>the installer has witnessed this, at night when >>the water pump and well remained off. ? Item >>2) some weeks ago, it was noted on this >>RE-Wrenches thread that some ballast blocks, >>4†x 8†x 16†were starting to suffer >>decomposition and a solution was sought, I >>guessed that this might be due to water seepage >>and repeated freezing and thawing. Has anyone >>used an inexpensive masonry sealer painted on >>the blocks, to stop water wicking to the >>concrete ballast blocks? There is very thick >>cinder block paint (UGL) for cinder block >>foundations that would be quite expensive and >>polyurethane is very pricey too - I would like >>to recommend that works successfully and is >>economical for existing installations rather >>than replacing hundreds of blocks? Thanks, >>Daniel O. Duffield NABCEP Certified PV >>Installation Professional (2005) NM licensed >>Commercial Electrical Contractor EE98/ER01 IEEE >>member 23 years >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >>listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or >>update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Aug 13 11:07:28 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 08:07:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ace-clamps Message-ID: <4AF526AF-45CE-4C2B-83E1-A8C19758C2D3@gmail.com> Hi all. I am trying to figure out if ace clamp makes a micro inverter bracket. I’ve seen a photo of one, but can’t find it on their website. Could be old and discontinued or too new, or? I have a potential customer who likes the clamping method of the ACE vs S-5!, and I do as well. I’d be curious others take on that. This potential project ticks all the boxes for rail-less install. Low heat, no critters, no leaves, low pitch, few modules, micro inverter, standing metal seam. Thanks in advance Jay Peltz power. From ray at solarray.com Mon Aug 13 14:03:47 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 12:03:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext xw+ 6848 inverter 1.5 minute voltage increase In-Reply-To: <20180813130444.7321F107474@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <95A1513D-E57C-42CE-85CD-16D71F8A02C5@me.com> <20180813130444.7321F107474@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Good Call Drake,  I've definitely had that problem before too. Neutral became disconnected, and the voltage on one leg got so high it damaged some equipment: garage door opener, heating controls, microwave, oven controls....  Funny thing was when the loads were roughly balanced, everything seemed normal; close to 120 vac on each leg, and 240 vac loads were not effected. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/13/18 7:04 AM, Drake wrote: > This problem might be due to a neutral connection problem in the > electrical system. Loose neutral connections can put 120 V loads in > series.  It puts loads on both line 1 an line 2 in series for 240 V. > The high resistance load (the one with the low draw) gets high voltage. > > > At 06:23 PM 8/11/2018, you wrote: >> I am placing this inquiry out to see if anyone else has experienced a >> similar experience. An electrician friend near Taos, NM, installed a >> Conext XW+ 6648 inverter on a large 2nd seasonal (remote stand alone >> PV supplied) vacation home, (used less than 10 weeks per year), it >> has a large 48 VDC AGM battery (40+kW-Hr) and almost a 7.0 kW PV >> Array and a back-up LP gen-set. It has a Xantrex accessories : >> Com-Box, charge controllers, bat monitor, etc. The anomaly this >> system exhibits is that - when the owners are infrequently present - >> during each evening, for about 90 seconds -  the 120vac lights get >> noticebly brighter. After this brief event, the lights exhibit normal >> behavior. No lights or appliances are functionally damaged. It is >> more of a nuisance than an actual problem. This usually happens >> between 9:30 and midnight. The timing seems to be arbitrary - as no >> known load either turns on or turns off in conjunction with this >> event. Xantrex has been consulted and the inverters firm ware has >> been upgraded and they even sent a replacement inverter control >> board, which after its replacement nothing changed. As this is quite >> late at night and has been happening both in winter and in summer >> months, it is not presently believed to be associated with the PV >> modules or charge controller. Conventional wisdom implies, that if >> there is some significant load was cycling in the background - the >> lights would dim - not brighten. I have never heard of anything like >> this and was wondering- if any had. There are no known large >> capacitive loads on the system. Any one seen anything similar, I was >> asked - as I have been doing systems in New Mexico since 1995 and I >> guessed it was a well/ water pressure bladder tank system related >> issue  . . .  but the installer has witnessed this, at night when the >> water pump and well remained off.   ? Item 2) some weeks ago, it was >> noted on this RE-Wrenches thread that some ballast blocks, 4” x  >> 8” x 16” were starting to suffer decomposition and a solution was >> sought, I guessed that this might be due to water seepage and >> repeated freezing and thawing. Has anyone used an inexpensive masonry >> sealer painted on the blocks, to stop water wicking to the concrete >> ballast blocks? There is very thick cinder block paint (UGL) for >> cinder block foundations that would be quite expensive and >> polyurethane is very pricey too - I would like to recommend that >> works successfully and is economical for existing installations >> rather than replacing hundreds of blocks? Thanks, Daniel O. Duffield >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional (2005) NM licensed >> Commercial Electrical Contractor EE98/ER01 IEEE member 23 years >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by >> Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out >> or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From ray at solarray.com Mon Aug 13 14:06:46 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 12:06:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext xw+ 6848 inverter 1.5 minute voltage increase In-Reply-To: References: <95A1513D-E57C-42CE-85CD-16D71F8A02C5@me.com> <20180813130444.7321F107474@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Also check the inverter syncing,  if they aren't in sync you can have the wave forms become additive and have higher voltages too. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/13/18 12:03 PM, Ray wrote: > Good Call Drake,  I've definitely had that problem before too. Neutral > became disconnected, and the voltage on one leg got so high it damaged > some equipment: garage door opener, heating controls, microwave, oven > controls....  Funny thing was when the loads were roughly balanced, > everything seemed normal; close to 120 vac on each leg, and 240 vac > loads were not effected. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 8/13/18 7:04 AM, Drake wrote: >> This problem might be due to a neutral connection problem in the >> electrical system. Loose neutral connections can put 120 V loads in >> series.  It puts loads on both line 1 an line 2 in series for 240 V. >> The high resistance load (the one with the low draw) gets high voltage. >> >> >> At 06:23 PM 8/11/2018, you wrote: >>> I am placing this inquiry out to see if anyone else has experienced >>> a similar experience. An electrician friend near Taos, NM, installed >>> a Conext XW+ 6648 inverter on a large 2nd seasonal (remote stand >>> alone PV supplied) vacation home, (used less than 10 weeks per >>> year), it has a large 48 VDC AGM battery (40+kW-Hr) and almost a 7.0 >>> kW PV Array and a back-up LP gen-set. It has a Xantrex accessories : >>> Com-Box, charge controllers, bat monitor, etc. The anomaly this >>> system exhibits is that - when the owners are infrequently present - >>> during each evening, for about 90 seconds -  the 120vac lights get >>> noticebly brighter. After this brief event, the lights exhibit >>> normal behavior. No lights or appliances are functionally damaged. >>> It is more of a nuisance than an actual problem. This usually >>> happens between 9:30 and midnight. The timing seems to be arbitrary >>> - as no known load either turns on or turns off in conjunction with >>> this event. Xantrex has been consulted and the inverters firm ware >>> has been upgraded and they even sent a replacement inverter control >>> board, which after its replacement nothing changed. As this is quite >>> late at night and has been happening both in winter and in summer >>> months, it is not presently believed to be associated with the PV >>> modules or charge controller. Conventional wisdom implies, that if >>> there is some significant load was cycling in the background - the >>> lights would dim - not brighten. I have never heard of anything like >>> this and was wondering- if any had. There are no known large >>> capacitive loads on the system. Any one seen anything similar, I was >>> asked - as I have been doing systems in New Mexico since 1995 and I >>> guessed it was a well/ water pressure bladder tank system related >>> issue  . . .  but the installer has witnessed this, at night when >>> the water pump and well remained off.   ? Item 2) some weeks ago, it >>> was noted on this RE-Wrenches thread that some ballast blocks, 4” >>> x  8” x 16” were starting to suffer decomposition and a solution >>> was sought, I guessed that this might be due to water seepage and >>> repeated freezing and thawing. Has anyone used an inexpensive >>> masonry sealer painted on the blocks, to stop water wicking to the >>> concrete ballast blocks? There is very thick cinder block paint >>> (UGL) for cinder block foundations that would be quite expensive and >>> polyurethane is very pricey too - I would like to recommend that >>> works successfully and is economical for existing installations >>> rather than replacing hundreds of blocks? Thanks, Daniel O. Duffield >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional (2005) NM licensed >>> Commercial Electrical Contractor EE98/ER01 IEEE member 23 years >>> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by >>> Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out >>> or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From ray at solarray.com Tue Aug 14 10:23:59 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 08:23:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell Cracks Message-ID: Hi All; I've had a colleague ask that I post a couple pictures of what appears to be cracks in cells under the glass.  The glass is not damaged.  These are Sun Edison modules, so apparently no warranty.  Has anyone seen this, and are these possibly dangerous (hot spots) or is this nothing to worry about?  An Infrared camera did not show any issues. As always your invaluable input is always appreciated. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cell cracks.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 341594 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cell cracks2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 358564 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Tue Aug 14 10:31:48 2018 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 10:31:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell Cracks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ray, I have seen this many times while servicing systems. I have not noticed it cause any issues, at least for modules that are 3-8 years old. On one site, I too did an IR scan and even curve traced modules showing this, and there was no difference compared to other nearby modules that did not show this cracking. The attached photo is what I have seen a lot of. It is very similar although not exactly the same as the pattern your photos show. (you may need to zoom in to see it). Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 10 Verizon Lane | Lansing, NY 14882 o. *607.930.3481* x6 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Ray wrote: > Hi All; > > I've had a colleague ask that I post a couple pictures of what appears to > be cracks in cells under the glass. The glass is not damaged. These are > Sun Edison modules, so apparently no warranty. Has anyone seen this, and > are these possibly dangerous (hot spots) or is this nothing to worry > about? An Infrared camera did not show any issues. > > As always your invaluable input is always appreciated. > > Thanks, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20171012_134319.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 880111 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 12:38:04 2018 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 10:38:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell Cracks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ray, I just saw the same sort of thing on 2-year-old Peimar modules. In my case, there were visible hot spots that had burned through the backsheet in several places on several modules. In some places it was just small blisters, in others there was a clearly melted area of the backsheet. The hot spots seemed clearly associated with the cells that had cracks, but they were always at the edges and corners of cells. Unfortunately I did not have access to an IR camera to view them under load in the sun. The manufacturer replaced them under warranty, but I’m not pleased with these modules at all. -Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com > > Hi All; > > I've had a colleague ask that I post a couple pictures of what appears to be cracks in cells under the glass. The glass is not damaged. These are Sun Edison modules, so apparently no warranty. Has anyone seen this, and are these possibly dangerous (hot spots) or is this nothing to worry about? An Infrared camera did not show any issues. > > As always your invaluable input is always appreciated. > > Thanks, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > <20171012_134319.jpg>_______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 11:20:13 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 08:20:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell Cracks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9FA5B6D2-DBE9-4519-A574-58936BB38641@gmail.com> I had a module engineer tell me these are often a static discharge issue which happens during the lamination process. It’s not effecting the cell surface but the encapsulate above it. It’s not cracking but it looks like it. Jay Peltz power. > On Aug 14, 2018, at 7:31 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Ray, > I have seen this many times while servicing systems. I have not noticed it cause any issues, > at least for modules that are 3-8 years old. On one site, I too did an IR scan and even curve > traced modules showing this, and there was no difference compared to other nearby modules > that did not show this cracking. The attached photo is what I have seen a lot of. It is very similar > although not exactly the same as the pattern your photos show. (you may need to zoom in to > see it). > > Cheers, > Dave > > > Dave Tedeyan > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 10 Verizon Lane | Lansing, NY 14882 > o. 607.930.3481 x6 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > >> On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Ray wrote: >> Hi All; >> >> I've had a colleague ask that I post a couple pictures of what appears to be cracks in cells under the glass. The glass is not damaged. These are Sun Edison modules, so apparently no warranty. Has anyone seen this, and are these possibly dangerous (hot spots) or is this nothing to worry about? An Infrared camera did not show any issues. >> >> As always your invaluable input is always appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Tue Aug 14 13:50:15 2018 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 10:50:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell Cracks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My cohort here that used to make PV modules thinks that something may have hit the back of the module ?  Maybe somebody weed-eating around the array and something hit it ? We notice the cracks in Ray's cells are white. Are the backs of these modules white too ? Interesting if they still work but if just a couple of cells out of 60 or 70 are bad then it might not be noticeable, electrically ? boB On 8/14/2018 7:31 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Ray, > I have seen this many times while servicing systems. I have not > noticed it cause any issues, > at least for modules that are 3-8 years old. On one site, I too did an > IR scan and even curve > traced modules showing this, and there was no difference compared to > other nearby modules > that did not show this cracking. The attached photo is what I have > seen a lot of. It is very similar > although not exactly the same as the pattern your photos show. (you > may need to zoom in to > see it). > > Cheers, > Dave > > > *Dave Tedeyan* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 10 Verizon Lane | Lansing, NY 14882 > o. _607.930.3481_ x6  f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar •Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > > On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Ray > wrote: > > Hi All; > > I've had a colleague ask that I post a couple pictures of what > appears to be cracks in cells under the glass.  The glass is not > damaged.  These are Sun Edison modules, so apparently no > warranty.  Has anyone seen this, and are these possibly dangerous > (hot spots) or is this nothing to worry about?  An Infrared camera > did not show any issues. > > As always your invaluable input is always appreciated. > > Thanks, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Aug 14 16:16:00 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 14:16:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell Cracks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <829247da-9330-a55d-5e64-dcd31f6ad2e8@solarray.com> I believe these were a roof mount.  I forwarded everyone's comments to the other wrench not on the list. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/14/18 11:50 AM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > > My cohort here that used to make PV modules thinks that something may > have hit the back of the > > module ?  Maybe somebody weed-eating around the array and something > hit it ? > > We notice the cracks in Ray's cells are white. Are the backs of these > modules white too ? > > Interesting if they still work but if just a couple of cells out of 60 > or 70 are bad then it might > > not be noticeable, electrically ? > > boB > > > On 8/14/2018 7:31 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> Ray, >> I have seen this many times while servicing systems. I have not >> noticed it cause any issues, >> at least for modules that are 3-8 years old. On one site, I too did >> an IR scan and even curve >> traced modules showing this, and there was no difference compared to >> other nearby modules >> that did not show this cracking. The attached photo is what I have >> seen a lot of. It is very similar >> although not exactly the same as the pattern your photos show. (you >> may need to zoom in to >> see it). >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> >> *Dave Tedeyan* >> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC >> >> 10 Verizon Lane | Lansing, NY 14882 >> o. _607.930.3481_ x6  f. 607.277.2119 >> www.taitem.com >> >> Solar •Sustainability • Energy • Design >> B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree >> >> On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Ray > > wrote: >> >> Hi All; >> >> I've had a colleague ask that I post a couple pictures of what >> appears to be cracks in cells under the glass.  The glass is not >> damaged.  These are Sun Edison modules, so apparently no >> warranty.  Has anyone seen this, and are these possibly dangerous >> (hot spots) or is this nothing to worry about?  An Infrared >> camera did not show any issues. >> >> As always your invaluable input is always appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Aug 14 19:45:19 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 17:45:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Off Grid Message-ID: <79136725-9a14-ba34-7390-98caf99f4261@solarray.com> Hi All; Its time to beat this poor dead horse again:  What is the latest, greatest ways to comply with 690.12 for lower voltage 150 Voc array with a charge controller in an off grid system?  At the moment, we are planning on using Midnite's new SOB system, and were told that while it won't work with most charge controllers, that it does work with Magnum's PT 100.  I'd like to hear from folks that have done this, any problems you've had, and also an explanation of why their transmitter is powered by 12 vdc, and not 24 or 48 vdc.    We definitely don't want to have the PV array dependent on AC power, so their AC transmitter is out.  If the inverters shut down from low battery voltage, the last thing we want is for the array to shut off too. I've done a few Birdhouse setups and found them to be fatally flawed. If there is a nuisance trip, (seemingly relatively common) the customer had to scale the roof to reset the PV array to "ON". I'm also looking at Outback, but it seems prohibitively expensive. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 20:48:21 2018 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 20:48:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 Message-ID: I am changing out an off-grid AC coupled SMA SB3000TL inverter tied to a dual stack VFX3648 system with a Mate (original - not Mate3) and an FNDC, making into a DC coupled array. It was set up as AC coupled originally because of the distance the array was from the system (about 500 feet) and high voltagecharge controllers were not available at the time. Now that there are several options, we want to change it because the charging setup is less than adequate. My first choice is to use an Outback FM100, only because it keeps all the equipment tied together, although I'm not a big fan of Outback these days. What are folks experience with the FM100? And apparently it needs a Mate3 (not the Mate) in order to program and read it, true? Otherwise I will probably go with either a Midnite 250 SL or a Schneider XW80-600. TIA, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Aug 14 22:34:02 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 20:34:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell Cracks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <189236e5-d379-2cf0-c7d9-128b71538ac5@solarray.com> I haven't seen the actual modules, and I am not that familiar with microfractures or snail trails either. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/14/18 7:42 PM, glenn.burt at glbcc.com wrote: > Ray, > > Do you feel that these are different from the microfractures or snail > trails that were  reported widely across the industry a couple of > years ago? > > Glenn > > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Ray > *Date: *Tue, Aug 14, 2018 10:24 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Cell Cracks > > Hi All; > > I've had a colleague ask that I post a couple pictures of what appears > to be cracks in cells under the glass.  The glass is not damaged.  These > are Sun Edison modules, so apparently no warranty.  Has anyone seen > this, and are these possibly dangerous (hot spots) or is this nothing to > worry about?  An Infrared camera did not show any issues. > > As always your invaluable input is always appreciated. > > Thanks, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > /maillist.ht ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Aug 14 21:42:29 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 21:42:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell Cracks Message-ID: Ray, Do you feel that these are different from the microfractures or snail trails that were  reported widely across the industry a couple of years ago? Glenn Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------From: RayDate: Tue, Aug 14, 2018 10:24 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Cell Cracks Hi All; I've had a colleague ask that I post a couple pictures of what appears to be cracks in cells under the glass.  The glass is not damaged.  These are Sun Edison modules, so apparently no warranty.  Has anyone seen this, and are these possibly dangerous (hot spots) or is this nothing to worry about?  An Infrared camera did not show any issues. As always your invaluable input is always appreciated. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 22:38:14 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 19:38:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie Yes you need a Mate 3 to program and view data for the FM100 Jay Peltz power. > On Aug 14, 2018, at 5:48 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > I am changing out an off-grid AC coupled SMA SB3000TL inverter tied to a dual stack VFX3648 system with a Mate (original - not Mate3) and an FNDC, making into a DC coupled array. It was set up as AC coupled originally because of the distance the array was from the system (about 500 feet) and high voltagecharge controllers were not available at the time. Now that there are several options, we want to change it because the charging setup is less than adequate. My first choice is to use an Outback FM100, only because it keeps all the equipment tied together, although I'm not a big fan of Outback these days. What are folks experience with the FM100? And apparently it needs a Mate3 (not the Mate) in order to program and read it, true? Otherwise I will probably go with either a Midnite 250 SL or a Schneider XW80-600. > TIA, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Aug 14 21:01:56 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 18:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6220b78b7e9063d3fe71d616561b0f96.squirrel@webmail.sti.net> I think you would make a huge mistake to not use an all Outback or Schneider system! No mixing because the web portals are excellent from a monitoring sense. Much of my income is from monitoring so as they say, I'm a fan! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 Dave Howie MichaelsonDave > I am changing out an off-grid AC coupled SMA SB3000TL inverter tied to a > dual stack VFX3648 system with a Mate (original - not Mate3) and an FNDC, > making into a DC coupled array. It was set up as AC coupled originally > because of the distance the array was from the system (about 500 feet) and > high voltagecharge controllers were not available at the time. Now that > there are several options, we want to change it because the charging setup > is less than adequate. My first choice is to use an Outback FM100, only > because it keeps all the equipment tied together, although I'm not a big > fan of Outback these days. What are folks experience with the FM100? And > apparently it needs a Mate3 (not the Mate) in order to program and read > it, > true? Otherwise I will probably go with either a Midnite 250 SL or a > Schneider XW80-600. > TIA, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Aug 14 23:42:46 2018 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 03:42:46 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Off Grid In-Reply-To: <79136725-9a14-ba34-7390-98caf99f4261@solarray.com> References: <79136725-9a14-ba34-7390-98caf99f4261@solarray.com> Message-ID: We’ve installed many Midnite BHs with the disconnecting combiners (and battery disco modules pre 2017 NEC.) Recently we set up a roof mounted array with the disconnecting HV combiner along with the SOB for the PV Side of the CC. Worked well. I’d be interested in the OB gear as well. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Aug 14, 2018, at 5:45 PM, Ray > wrote: Hi All; Its time to beat this poor dead horse again: What is the latest, greatest ways to comply with 690.12 for lower voltage 150 Voc array with a charge controller in an off grid system? At the moment, we are planning on using Midnite's new SOB system, and were told that while it won't work with most charge controllers, that it does work with Magnum's PT 100. I'd like to hear from folks that have done this, any problems you've had, and also an explanation of why their transmitter is powered by 12 vdc, and not 24 or 48 vdc. We definitely don't want to have the PV array dependent on AC power, so their AC transmitter is out. If the inverters shut down from low battery voltage, the last thing we want is for the array to shut off too. I've done a few Birdhouse setups and found them to be fatally flawed. If there is a nuisance trip, (seemingly relatively common) the customer had to scale the roof to reset the PV array to "ON". I'm also looking at Outback, but it seems prohibitively expensive. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Tue Aug 14 23:29:56 2018 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 21:29:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell Cracks In-Reply-To: <189236e5-d379-2cf0-c7d9-128b71538ac5@solarray.com> References: <189236e5-d379-2cf0-c7d9-128b71538ac5@solarray.com> Message-ID: Spot-on Glenn. Ray - check out this doc from REC . Its not uncommon for there to be no measurable effect from a microcrack at first, but efficiency and safety can be significantly impacted after years of thermal cycling. Apparently the best way to detect them in the field is electroluminescence testing. Not particularly cost effective for one-off resi, but for larger systems it could make sense to test a sample. These guys provide in-field EL testing services and are rock stars. *Regards, * *Andrew Truitt | DRV * www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 8:34 PM Ray wrote: > I haven't seen the actual modules, and I am not that familiar with > microfractures or snail trails either. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 8/14/18 7:42 PM, glenn.burt at glbcc.com wrote: > > Ray, > > Do you feel that these are different from the microfractures or snail > trails that were reported widely across the industry a couple of years ago? > > Glenn > > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Ray > *Date: *Tue, Aug 14, 2018 10:24 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Cell Cracks > > Hi All; > > I've had a colleague ask that I post a couple pictures of what appears > to be cracks in cells under the glass. The glass is not damaged. These > are Sun Edison modules, so apparently no warranty. Has anyone seen > this, and are these possibly dangerous (hot spots) or is this nothing to > worry about? An Infrared camera did not show any issues. > > As always your invaluable input is always appreciated. > > Thanks, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar303 505-8760 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <%20RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Aug 15 14:54:53 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 12:54:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Re: Cell Cracks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <776f577b-f5e1-37df-20fa-b37f117cabb4@solarray.com> I'm forwarding this for the Wrench that experienced the microcracks.  Very interesting. I appreciate everyone's comments so far. Ray Walters -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cell Cracks Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 07:28:59 -0600 From: Stephen Bures To: Ray Well they look different than the pictures in the article of mocrocracks but that may be because the cause of these was hail impacts and not a manufacturing or shipping thing. The reason I think that they were caused by hail is because the dirt on the top of the glass was smudged in the center of each crack. These may essentially be the same thing as microcracks and cause an issue over time. *Stephen A. Bures *l *Principal* Sun Integrated Design *970-980-3882* */"Quote me as saying I was misquoted"/* *-Groucho Marx* On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Ray > wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Aug 15 19:01:18 2018 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 19:01:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Directional / Netmetering question Message-ID: Is it possible for a utility meter to be programmed/wired backward? I have a client on an Enphase system with production and consumption monitoring, and the Enphase monitoring is showing solar production exceeded consumption by 400 kWh for a billing period. However, the meter is reading almost exactly the opposite. It seems too coincidental. I'm going to go out to the site tomorrow to shut down all of the loads and see what happens when solar is only backfeeding the meter, but I'm curious how the meters are "programmed" or set up to work. Note that the meter was zeroed to start and the initial billing period readings show DEL exceeded REC by 400 kWh, which matches what was billed (net usage of positive 400 kWh). Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 19:10:32 2018 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 16:10:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Directional / Netmetering question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason...not sure about the Enphase consumption monitoring, if it is done with CT's confirm that your CT's are facing the right direction. Some CT's are directional and perhaps your consumption monitoring could be backwards instead of the utility meter wiring backwards.....Seems like the utility would have noticed incorrect wiring in their can. We use the E Gauge CT clamps for some monitoring and they are directional. I am not familiar with the Enphase versions. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 4:01 PM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Is it possible for a utility meter to be programmed/wired backward? I have > a client on an Enphase system with production and consumption monitoring, > and the Enphase monitoring is showing solar production exceeded consumption > by 400 kWh for a billing period. However, the meter is reading almost > exactly the opposite. It seems too coincidental. > > I'm going to go out to the site tomorrow to shut down all of the loads and > see what happens when solar is only backfeeding the meter, but I'm curious > how the meters are "programmed" or set up to work. > > Note that the meter was zeroed to start and the initial billing period > readings show DEL exceeded REC by 400 kWh, which matches what was billed > (net usage of positive 400 kWh). > > Jason Szumlanski > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed Aug 15 20:58:29 2018 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 20:58:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Directional / Netmetering question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Enphase CTs are directional. There is an arrow on them. I believe it’s supposed to point towards the load side for both consumption and production but not positive off the top of my head. On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 7:10 PM Kirpal wrote: > Jason...not sure about the Enphase consumption monitoring, if it is done > with CT's confirm that your CT's are facing the right direction. Some CT's > are directional and perhaps your consumption monitoring could be backwards > instead of the utility meter wiring backwards.....Seems like the utility > would have noticed incorrect wiring in their can. > We use the E Gauge CT clamps for some monitoring and they are > directional. I am not familiar with the Enphase versions. > > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > > On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 4:01 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Is it possible for a utility meter to be programmed/wired backward? I >> have a client on an Enphase system with production and consumption >> monitoring, and the Enphase monitoring is showing solar production exceeded >> consumption by 400 kWh for a billing period. However, the meter is reading >> almost exactly the opposite. It seems too coincidental. >> >> I'm going to go out to the site tomorrow to shut down all of the loads >> and see what happens when solar is only backfeeding the meter, but I'm >> curious how the meters are "programmed" or set up to work. >> >> Note that the meter was zeroed to start and the initial billing period >> readings show DEL exceeded REC by 400 kWh, which matches what was billed >> (net usage of positive 400 kWh). >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Aug 16 00:08:48 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 21:08:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Directional / Netmetering question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason,             I'm so glad you brought this up, I'm having a very similar issue backfeeding a utility (PG&E) meter that we recently started backfeeding  on a small commercial job.  Somewhat unique in that its 208/120 SINGLE phase (L-L-N).  The inverters are pushing about 3,000 KWhrs/month to the grid, way more than typical July consumption at this site  but their billing shows modest consumption. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 8/15/2018 4:01 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > Is it possible for a utility meter to be programmed/wired backward? I > have a client on an Enphase system with production and consumption > monitoring, and the Enphase monitoring is showing solar production > exceeded consumption by 400 kWh for a billing period. However, the > meter is reading almost exactly the opposite. It seems too coincidental. > > I'm going to go out to the site tomorrow to shut down all of the loads > and see what happens when solar is only backfeeding the meter, but I'm > curious how the meters are "programmed" or set up to work. > > Note that the meter was zeroed to start and the initial billing period > readings show DEL exceeded REC by 400 kWh, which matches what was > billed (net usage of positive 400 kWh). > > Jason Szumlanski > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Thu Aug 16 09:18:49 2018 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 09:18:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Directional / Netmetering question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also check that the voltage reference is correct for each CT. If the CT on L1 has a voltage reference of L2, then it looks as if the CT's are backwards, but really it is the voltage reference that is backwards. Some panels are not intuitive as to which Line corresponds to which side of the bus bar (i.e. the line on the left of the top of the main breaker actually connects to the bus bar on the right). Ringing it out is not a good way to determine if you have the correct line, you need to check for voltage. If you get 0V, then you are looking at the same line. If you get 240V, then you have the wrong voltage reference. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 10 Verizon Lane | Lansing, NY 14882 o. *607.930.3481* x6 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 12:08 AM, frenergy wrote: > Jason, > > I'm so glad you brought this up, I'm having a very similar > issue backfeeding a utility (PG&E) meter that we recently started > backfeeding on a small commercial job. Somewhat unique in that its > 208/120 SINGLE phase (L-L-N). The inverters are pushing about 3,000 > KWhrs/month to the grid, way more than typical July consumption at this > site but their billing shows modest consumption. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 8/15/2018 4:01 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Is it possible for a utility meter to be programmed/wired backward? I have > a client on an Enphase system with production and consumption monitoring, > and the Enphase monitoring is showing solar production exceeded consumption > by 400 kWh for a billing period. However, the meter is reading almost > exactly the opposite. It seems too coincidental. > > I'm going to go out to the site tomorrow to shut down all of the loads and > see what happens when solar is only backfeeding the meter, but I'm curious > how the meters are "programmed" or set up to work. > > Note that the meter was zeroed to start and the initial billing period > readings show DEL exceeded REC by 400 kWh, which matches what was billed > (net usage of positive 400 kWh). > > Jason Szumlanski > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > <#m_511908107291212340_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 10:11:10 2018 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 07:11:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Off Grid In-Reply-To: References: <79136725-9a14-ba34-7390-98caf99f4261@solarray.com> Message-ID: I set it up so the 12VDC transmitter was powered by the AUX on one of the charge controls. Except the receivers did not go on with the charge control I have. Brad On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 8:42 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > We’ve installed many Midnite BHs with the disconnecting combiners (and > battery disco modules pre 2017 NEC.) > Recently we set up a roof mounted array with the disconnecting HV combiner > along with the SOB for the PV Side of the CC. Worked well. > I’d be interested in the OB gear as well. > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > On Aug 14, 2018, at 5:45 PM, Ray wrote: > > Hi All; > > Its time to beat this poor dead horse again: What is the latest, greatest > ways to comply with 690.12 for lower voltage 150 Voc array with a charge > controller in an off grid system? At the moment, we are planning on using > Midnite's new SOB system, and were told that while it won't work with most > charge controllers, that it does work with Magnum's PT 100. I'd like to > hear from folks that have done this, any problems you've had, and also an > explanation of why their transmitter is powered by 12 vdc, and not 24 or 48 > vdc. We definitely don't want to have the PV array dependent on AC > power, so their AC transmitter is out. If the inverters shut down from low > battery voltage, the last thing we want is for the array to shut off too. > > I've done a few Birdhouse setups and found them to be fatally flawed. If > there is a nuisance trip, (seemingly relatively common) the customer had to > scale the roof to reset the PV array to "ON". I'm also looking at Outback, > but it seems prohibitively expensive. > > Thanks, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Thu Aug 16 10:57:12 2018 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 07:57:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Directional / Netmetering question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fun fact: Sometimes the stickers on the CT's are incorrect too. Had that happen and took forever to figure out... On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Kirpal wrote: > Jason...not sure about the Enphase consumption monitoring, if it is done > with CT's confirm that your CT's are facing the right direction. Some CT's > are directional and perhaps your consumption monitoring could be backwards > instead of the utility meter wiring backwards.....Seems like the utility > would have noticed incorrect wiring in their can. > We use the E Gauge CT clamps for some monitoring and they are > directional. I am not familiar with the Enphase versions. > > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > > On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 4:01 PM, Jason Szumlanski floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Is it possible for a utility meter to be programmed/wired backward? I >> have a client on an Enphase system with production and consumption >> monitoring, and the Enphase monitoring is showing solar production exceeded >> consumption by 400 kWh for a billing period. However, the meter is reading >> almost exactly the opposite. It seems too coincidental. >> >> I'm going to go out to the site tomorrow to shut down all of the loads >> and see what happens when solar is only backfeeding the meter, but I'm >> curious how the meters are "programmed" or set up to work. >> >> Note that the meter was zeroed to start and the initial billing period >> readings show DEL exceeded REC by 400 kWh, which matches what was billed >> (net usage of positive 400 kWh). >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Lorenzo Ortiz Commercial PV Designer* lorenzo at cal-solar.com* (530) 274-3671* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Aug 16 11:12:19 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 08:12:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Directional / Netmetering question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Friends: I have seen utilities misappropriate values from their meter to the billing. That might explain your discrepancies. William > On Aug 16, 2018, at 7:57 AM, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: > > Fun fact: Sometimes the stickers on the CT's are incorrect too. Had that happen and took forever to figure out... > >> On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Kirpal wrote: >> Jason...not sure about the Enphase consumption monitoring, if it is done with CT's confirm that your CT's are facing the right direction. Some CT's are directional and perhaps your consumption monitoring could be backwards instead of the utility meter wiring backwards.....Seems like the utility would have noticed incorrect wiring in their can. >> We use the E Gauge CT clamps for some monitoring and they are directional. I am not familiar with the Enphase versions. >> >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon LRT#25 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-299-0402 >> >>> On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 4:01 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> Is it possible for a utility meter to be programmed/wired backward? I have a client on an Enphase system with production and consumption monitoring, and the Enphase monitoring is showing solar production exceeded consumption by 400 kWh for a billing period. However, the meter is reading almost exactly the opposite. It seems too coincidental. >>> >>> I'm going to go out to the site tomorrow to shut down all of the loads and see what happens when solar is only backfeeding the meter, but I'm curious how the meters are "programmed" or set up to work. >>> >>> Note that the meter was zeroed to start and the initial billing period readings show DEL exceeded REC by 400 kWh, which matches what was billed (net usage of positive 400 kWh). >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > > -- > Lorenzo Ortiz Commercial PV Designer > > lorenzo at cal-solar.com (530) 274-3671 > > > > > Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 16 17:44:11 2018 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 17:44:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Directional / Netmetering question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did a little test today and it looks like everything was reading correctly. Really strange. I took meter readings and times, so I'll go back in a week or so and compare the meter readings to Enlighten monitoring. All CTs are correct (I've corrected so many wrong ones at this point that I'm definitely expert level on that). On this site I actually have two conductors per CT because there is a meter/main combo feeding both a main panel inside the garage and a pool subpanel (3/0 and #6 conductors). I triple checked directionality and line matching. I removed the CTs, checked for the magnetic inserts, and reinstalled them. Everything checked out. I considered putting in parallel CTs, but it shouldn't be necessary. To Dave Tedeyan's point, line-to-line matching results in the most errors we see in the field now. For example, Eaton main breakers criss-cross inside, so the lugs top and bottom are reversed. I always check the voltage across the line to load side of the main to double check. Now if Enphase would just change the wording of the CT measurement options in the Installer Toolkit we could all avoid those annoying errors. It should simply ask if the consumption CTs are on the load or line side of the interconnection point (breaker or tap). And while on the subject, let installers change the setting in the Toolkit! On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 11:53 AM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > I have seen utilities misappropriate values from their meter to the > billing. That might explain your discrepancies. > > William > > On Aug 16, 2018, at 7:57 AM, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: > > Fun fact: Sometimes the stickers on the CT's are incorrect too. Had that > happen and took forever to figure out... > > On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Kirpal wrote: > >> Jason...not sure about the Enphase consumption monitoring, if it is done >> with CT's confirm that your CT's are facing the right direction. Some CT's >> are directional and perhaps your consumption monitoring could be backwards >> instead of the utility meter wiring backwards.....Seems like the utility >> would have noticed incorrect wiring in their can. >> We use the E Gauge CT clamps for some monitoring and they are >> directional. I am not familiar with the Enphase versions. >> >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon LRT#25 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-299-0402 >> >> On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 4:01 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> Is it possible for a utility meter to be programmed/wired backward? I >>> have a client on an Enphase system with production and consumption >>> monitoring, and the Enphase monitoring is showing solar production exceeded >>> consumption by 400 kWh for a billing period. However, the meter is reading >>> almost exactly the opposite. It seems too coincidental. >>> >>> I'm going to go out to the site tomorrow to shut down all of the loads >>> and see what happens when solar is only backfeeding the meter, but I'm >>> curious how the meters are "programmed" or set up to work. >>> >>> Note that the meter was zeroed to start and the initial billing period >>> readings show DEL exceeded REC by 400 kWh, which matches what was billed >>> (net usage of positive 400 kWh). >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > *Lorenzo Ortiz Commercial PV Designer* > > lorenzo at cal-solar.com* (530) 274-3671* > > > > > *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 16 17:51:40 2018 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 17:51:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithionics Batteries Message-ID: Does anyone have experience with this brand from Florida? I have a client with a system where the batteries were neglected by the prior property owner and have failed, so it's time for an expensive replacement. I want to make sure a drop-in replacement is the best option for this client, or should I consider another option? It's about 110aH @ 51V x 8 batteries, total of about 44 kWh rated capacity. Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Aug 16 17:58:42 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 14:58:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bi-Directional / Netmetering question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, In our territory the utility (PG&E) starting switching to digital smart meters five to ten years ago. In order to function properly with a PV system, meters need to be programmed for Net Energy Metering (NEM). If you run a PV system prior to receiving Permission To Operate (PTO) from the utility, backfed energy may actually register as energy consumed by the property. The meter will still show a little arrow to the left (meaning backfeeding to grid) but they will bill you as if that energy was being consumed. I can't say that all meters work this way, but I can verify that it has happened when some of our customers jumped the gun and turned on their system prior to receiving PTO. This could be a totally separate issue from what you're seeing, but thought I'd just chime in. Best, August On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 2:44 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I did a little test today and it looks like everything was reading > correctly. Really strange. I took meter readings and times, so I'll go back > in a week or so and compare the meter readings to Enlighten monitoring. All > CTs are correct (I've corrected so many wrong ones at this point that I'm > definitely expert level on that). On this site I actually have two > conductors per CT because there is a meter/main combo feeding both a main > panel inside the garage and a pool subpanel (3/0 and #6 conductors). I > triple checked directionality and line matching. I removed the CTs, checked > for the magnetic inserts, and reinstalled them. Everything checked out. I > considered putting in parallel CTs, but it shouldn't be necessary. > > > To Dave Tedeyan's point, line-to-line matching results in the most errors > we see in the field now. For example, Eaton main breakers criss-cross > inside, so the lugs top and bottom are reversed. I always check the > voltage across the line to load side of the main to double check. > > Now if Enphase would just change the wording of the CT measurement options > in the Installer Toolkit we could all avoid those annoying errors. It > should simply ask if the consumption CTs are on the load or line side of > the interconnection point (breaker or tap). And while on the subject, let > installers change the setting in the Toolkit! > > > > > On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 11:53 AM William Miller > wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> I have seen utilities misappropriate values from their meter to the >> billing. That might explain your discrepancies. >> >> William >> >> On Aug 16, 2018, at 7:57 AM, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: >> >> Fun fact: Sometimes the stickers on the CT's are incorrect too. Had that >> happen and took forever to figure out... >> >> On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Kirpal wrote: >> >>> Jason...not sure about the Enphase consumption monitoring, if it is done >>> with CT's confirm that your CT's are facing the right direction. Some CT's >>> are directional and perhaps your consumption monitoring could be backwards >>> instead of the utility meter wiring backwards.....Seems like the utility >>> would have noticed incorrect wiring in their can. >>> We use the E Gauge CT clamps for some monitoring and they are >>> directional. I am not familiar with the Enphase versions. >>> >>> >>> Sunny Regards, >>> Kirpal Khalsa >>> Oregon LRT#25 >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> Oregon Solarworks LLC >>> www.oregonsolarworks.com >>> 541-299-0402 >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 4:01 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Is it possible for a utility meter to be programmed/wired backward? I >>>> have a client on an Enphase system with production and consumption >>>> monitoring, and the Enphase monitoring is showing solar production exceeded >>>> consumption by 400 kWh for a billing period. However, the meter is reading >>>> almost exactly the opposite. It seems too coincidental. >>>> >>>> I'm going to go out to the site tomorrow to shut down all of the loads >>>> and see what happens when solar is only backfeeding the meter, but I'm >>>> curious how the meters are "programmed" or set up to work. >>>> >>>> Note that the meter was zeroed to start and the initial billing period >>>> readings show DEL exceeded REC by 400 kWh, which matches what was billed >>>> (net usage of positive 400 kWh). >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> *Lorenzo Ortiz Commercial PV Designer* >> >> lorenzo at cal-solar.com* (530) 274-3671* >> >> >> >> >> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Aug 16 18:20:49 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 15:20:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithionics Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22287506-48B6-4015-BFB6-E55EFA158E90@starlightsolar.com> Hi Jason, We have been selling and installing Li-ion batteries for 5 years with hundreds of customers (we ship batteries every day). I would not recommend using that type of battery for your application. We have sold a few small 24 and 48V systems using LiFeBlue and Relion Battery and had a problem with one system. The EMS on a drop-in Li battery is internal and functions independently. If one battery turns off on a fault, you loose all power on that string. With a parallel path (string) still functioning, the strings are now becoming unbalanced. When the battery is restored, you have 2 different SoC’s for the 2 strings. Not a good scenario and it could lead to cascading trouble. I recommend using a battery system with external EMS (example Elite Power Solutions https://www.elitepowersolutions.com/bms/). Everything is field serviceable and if the EMS does turn off, there are simple ways to continue using the battery until it is repaired. Much happier customer. You can contact me off the list or call if you would like further advise. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Aug 16, 2018, at 2:51 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Does anyone have experience with this brand from Florida? I have a client with a system where the batteries were neglected by the prior property owner and have failed, so it's time for an expensive replacement. I want to make sure a drop-in replacement is the best option for this client, or should I consider another option? It's about 110aH @ 51V x 8 batteries, total of about 44 kWh rated capacity. Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Aug 16 18:46:16 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 15:46:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithionics Batteries In-Reply-To: <22287506-48B6-4015-BFB6-E55EFA158E90@starlightsolar.com> References: <22287506-48B6-4015-BFB6-E55EFA158E90@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Jason, I just visited the Lithionics website...it’s been a while. It appears they now have a form of external BMS. May be worth a further look. I was remembering an older product with internal energy management which they still sell. Larry On Aug 16, 2018, at 3:20 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Hi Jason, We have been selling and installing Li-ion batteries for 5 years with hundreds of customers (we ship batteries every day). I would not recommend using that type of battery for your application. We have sold a few small 24 and 48V systems using LiFeBlue and Relion Battery and had a problem with one system. The EMS on a drop-in Li battery is internal and functions independently. If one battery turns off on a fault, you loose all power on that string. With a parallel path (string) still functioning, the strings are now becoming unbalanced. When the battery is restored, you have 2 different SoC’s for the 2 strings. Not a good scenario and it could lead to cascading trouble. I recommend using a battery system with external EMS (example Elite Power Solutions https://www.elitepowersolutions.com/bms/ ). Everything is field serviceable and if the EMS does turn off, there are simple ways to continue using the battery until it is repaired. Much happier customer. You can contact me off the list or call if you would like further advise. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Aug 16, 2018, at 2:51 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: Does anyone have experience with this brand from Florida? I have a client with a system where the batteries were neglected by the prior property owner and have failed, so it's time for an expensive replacement. I want to make sure a drop-in replacement is the best option for this client, or should I consider another option? It's about 110aH @ 51V x 8 batteries, total of about 44 kWh rated capacity. Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Aug 16 22:33:06 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 22:33:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie, We just installed our first two FM100's. We had already added the MATE3 earlier to get OpticRE. They work great and we accidentally tested the 3/4 amp ground fault fuses white switching out the breakers to high voltage. Just a tiny spark from the pv wire to ground and bingo.... two ground fault lights. Since they talk to each other through the hub, both the fuses blew. The manual says with more than one controller, take the fuse out of the other one. It will shut off anyway and we wasted a fuse. Could have used that fuse to get the system back if we had done that. We ended up having to go back to the shop to get a fuse. John B On Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 10:38 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi Howie > > Yes you need a Mate 3 to program and view data for the FM100 > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > On Aug 14, 2018, at 5:48 PM, Howie Michaelson < > Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > I am changing out an off-grid AC coupled SMA SB3000TL inverter tied to a > dual stack VFX3648 system with a Mate (original - not Mate3) and an FNDC, > making into a DC coupled array. It was set up as AC coupled originally > because of the distance the array was from the system (about 500 feet) and > high voltagecharge controllers were not available at the time. Now that > there are several options, we want to change it because the charging setup > is less than adequate. My first choice is to use an Outback FM100, only > because it keeps all the equipment tied together, although I'm not a big > fan of Outback these days. What are folks experience with the FM100? And > apparently it needs a Mate3 (not the Mate) in order to program and read it, > true? Otherwise I will probably go with either a Midnite 250 SL or a > Schneider XW80-600. > > TIA, > > Howie Michaelson > > Sun Catcher > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Fri Aug 17 15:09:18 2018 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 09:09:18 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOC, FNDC, and LFP batteries Message-ID: Hello All, Does anybody have any insight in getting the SOC to report accurately on the Outback FNDC when using batteries that have a minimal voltage curve? I have several systems with LFP batteries that have both a eGauge (communicating directly with the battery BMU) and a FNDC and I get wildly different SOCs. In a typical 24 hour period (12am-12am) I get SOCs on the FNDC that vary 2% to 34% of what the battery BMUs are reporting. I am assuming that the BMUs are reporting accurately. I would think a 1%-5% difference would be acceptable. Any help or thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Aug 18 01:40:54 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 00:40:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to find Ground fault on ungrounded system. Message-ID: The system is Fronius Primo, trip on fault code meaning ground fault in the array. I disconnect the arrays from the combiner it measures 400+ corresponding to Voc @ temp. My Fluke multimeter the same about 5 volts to ground off both ends of the disconnected array. When I connect the inverter and set into operation I measure a difference of voltage to ground. The tech support at Fronius says it can't be the inverter. Is the problem in the array? Or the inverter? If I meg the array, my procedure is to open circuit the array and connect my negative lead to ground and my positive lead of the Megger. to the negative lead of the array. please comment on my megging practice. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Sat Aug 18 05:29:03 2018 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 05:29:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to find Ground fault on ungrounded system. References: Message-ID: <7D0E31C584C84518874FFB7114E03B1C@PeterPC> Darryl Have had some issues with Primo's, first solution turned out to be a software upgrade as Fronius had set parameters pretty tight. Second turned out to be a very old AC compressor, when it kicked on it some how triggered the Primo and showed a fault. While I am not commenting on your Megging, the above issues were corrected. peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Darryl Thayer To: newrewrenches Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:40 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to find Ground fault on ungrounded system. The system is Fronius Primo, trip on fault code meaning ground fault in the array. I disconnect the arrays from the combiner it measures 400+ corresponding to Voc @ temp. My Fluke multimeter the same about 5 volts to ground off both ends of the disconnected array. When I connect the inverter and set into operation I measure a difference of voltage to ground. The tech support at Fronius says it can't be the inverter. Is the problem in the array? Or the inverter? If I meg the array, my procedure is to open circuit the array and connect my negative lead to ground and my positive lead of the Megger. to the negative lead of the array. please comment on my megging practice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Sat Aug 18 09:24:09 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 09:24:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOC, FNDC, and LFP batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65059F44-C36E-4C7F-A9ED-11F70DCD122E@swnl.net> Yep its is terrible! Spoke w/ a former member of their (OB)’s tech support and was told that the counting of amp hours both up & down drifts so you have to recalibrate monthly. This IS something OB is aware of and has no interest in addressing. Thoughts…. remove and when you find a device that I am able to install and get accurate info on multiple shunts to trigger gen start let me know.T > On Aug 17, 2018, at 3:09 PM, Lou Russo wrote: > > Hello All, > > Does anybody have any insight in getting the SOC to report accurately on the Outback FNDC when using batteries that have a minimal voltage curve? I have several systems with LFP batteries that have both a eGauge (communicating directly with the battery BMU) and a FNDC and I get wildly different SOCs. In a typical 24 hour period (12am-12am) I get SOCs on the FNDC that vary 2% to 34% of what the battery BMUs are reporting. I am assuming that the BMUs are reporting accurately. I would think a 1%-5% difference would be acceptable. > > Any help or thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Aug 18 11:08:46 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 08:08:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOC, FNDC, and LFP batteries In-Reply-To: <65059F44-C36E-4C7F-A9ED-11F70DCD122E@swnl.net> References: <65059F44-C36E-4C7F-A9ED-11F70DCD122E@swnl.net> Message-ID: Just another reason that Soc needs to originate from the BMS in an OEM battery system. It needs to get into the Schneider and Outback web portals for monitoring. Is there anyone building an Offgrid battery besides Discover AES that does this? I don't think so. On Sat, 18 Aug 2018 09:24:09 -0400, Tump wrote: Yep its is terrible! Spoke w/ a former member of their (OB)'s tech support and was told that the counting of amp hours both up border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> On Aug 17, 2018, at 3:09 PM, Lou Russo wrote: Hello All, Does anybody have any insight in getting the SOC to report accurately on the Outback FNDC when using batteries that have a minimal voltage curve? I have several systems with LFP batteries that have both a eGauge (communicating directly with the battery BMU) and a FNDC and I get wildly different SOCs. In a typical 24 hour period (12am-12am) I get SOCs on the FNDC that vary 2% to 34% of what the battery BMUs are reporting. I am assuming that the BMUs are reporting accurately. I would think a 1%-5% difference would be acceptable. Any help or thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com [2] 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [3] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> WWW.SWNL.NET [5] Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE "> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 _ _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [7] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] mailto:lou at spreesolarsystems.com [2] mailto:lou at spreesolarsystems.com [3] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] http://webmail.sti.net/blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ [6] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [7] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 17 20:32:27 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 17:32:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOC, FNDC, and LFP batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D6CCE96-F5DE-47BB-8000-278F64584670@gmail.com> Hi Lou, Can you tell us which LFP batteries? And what rates of discharge/charge? Thx Jay Peltz power. > On Aug 17, 2018, at 12:09 PM, Lou Russo wrote: > > Hello All, > > Does anybody have any insight in getting the SOC to report accurately on the Outback FNDC when using batteries that have a minimal voltage curve? I have several systems with LFP batteries that have both a eGauge (communicating directly with the battery BMU) and a FNDC and I get wildly different SOCs. In a typical 24 hour period (12am-12am) I get SOCs on the FNDC that vary 2% to 34% of what the battery BMUs are reporting. I am assuming that the BMUs are reporting accurately. I would think a 1%-5% difference would be acceptable. > > Any help or thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Aug 18 12:40:31 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 09:40:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOC, FNDC, and LFP batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lou Sounds like you are having the same issue we did, l adjusted the size of the battery down to 50% of the battery rating and so far the values appear to follow in. We will also be installing a DC CT on the egauge to see and have a better idea of whats going and out outside of the BMU Jerry On Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 12:09 PM Lou Russo wrote: > Hello All, > > Does anybody have any insight in getting the SOC to report accurately on > the Outback FNDC when using batteries that have a minimal voltage curve? I > have several systems with LFP batteries that have both a eGauge > (communicating directly with the battery BMU) and a FNDC and I get wildly > different SOCs. In a typical 24 hour period (12am-12am) I get SOCs on the > FNDC that vary 2% to 34% of what the battery BMUs are reporting. I am > assuming that the BMUs are reporting accurately. I would think a 1%-5% > difference would be acceptable. > > Any help or thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Aug 18 14:55:53 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 11:55:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to find Ground fault on ungrounded system. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Darrel I have the same issue with the same inverter, my issue is intermittant and it does appear to be in the array, l have done the test to earth, megger tester, PVA-600, My issue may not appear for weeks and my thought is modules leaking when it gets wet enough. I suggest testing with a wet array, l have had sucess with megger testing and leaking connectors or splices that way. Jerry On Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 10:41 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: > The system is Fronius Primo, trip on fault code meaning ground fault in > the array. I disconnect the arrays from the combiner it measures 400+ > corresponding to Voc > @ temp. My Fluke multimeter the same about 5 volts to ground off both > ends of the disconnected array. When I connect the inverter and set into > operation I measure a difference of voltage to ground. The tech support > at Fronius says it can't be the inverter. Is the problem in the array? Or > the inverter? > > If I meg the array, my procedure is to open circuit the array and connect > my negative lead to ground and my positive lead of the Megger. to the > negative lead of the array. please comment on my megging practice. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Aug 18 16:25:43 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 14:25:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOC, FNDC, and LFP batteries In-Reply-To: <65059F44-C36E-4C7F-A9ED-11F70DCD122E@swnl.net> References: <65059F44-C36E-4C7F-A9ED-11F70DCD122E@swnl.net> Message-ID: <977f257f-731b-651c-e935-33f4014c3664@solarray.com> My experience has bee that all SOC meters can drift off over time.  Best I can figure is that they don't reset at full, or do reset when the battery is not fully charged.  This coupled with an inability to account for temperature variation and differences in discharge rates, can also contribute to inaccuracy.  Thus, my solution has been to not depend on auto starting the generator. The smartest control is the user themselves, who can look at the weather, look at their usage, time of day, SG of the batteries, voltage, etc. and better decide when to start the generator. Their batteries and generator last longer, and they spend $1000s less in propane over the life of the system. For folks that insist on auto start, they better get ready for big fuel bills, generator replacement, and an overall less reliable system, since their is not human management of the system.  A seasoned off grid customer is always smarter than any auto start system.  That being said, the advent of batteries with their own BMS systems that can communicate with the rest of the system may make auto start a more viable and less costly option in the future Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/18/18 7:24 AM, Tump wrote: > Yep its is terrible! Spoke w/ a former member of their (OB)’s tech > support and was told that the counting of amp hours both up & down > drifts so you have to recalibrate monthly. > This IS something OB is aware of and has no interest in addressing. > Thoughts…. remove and when you find a device that I am able to install > and get accurate info on multiple shunts to trigger gen start let me > know.T >> On Aug 17, 2018, at 3:09 PM, Lou Russo > > wrote: >> >> Hello All, >> >> Does anybody have any insight in getting the SOC to report accurately >> on the Outback FNDC when using batteries that have a minimal voltage >> curve? I have several systems with LFP batteries that have both a >> eGauge (communicating directly with the battery BMU) and a FNDC and I >> get wildly different SOCs. In a typical  24 hour period (12am-12am) I >> get SOCs on the FNDC that vary 2% to 34% of what the battery BMUs are >> reporting. I am assuming that the BMUs are reporting accurately. I >> would think a 1%-5% difference would be acceptable. >> >> Any help or thoughts on this subject  would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> *Tump at swnl.net >> **www.SWNL.net* >> >> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >> */       Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >> /**/   207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401 /* >> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >> >> */             ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**//**/NABCEP    "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >> /**/ >>               ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**/Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Aug 18 15:57:38 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 12:57:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOC, FNDC, and LFP batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9FC18FA2-9C65-49DE-BD99-83F68BC47B5F@gmail.com> Interesting thread as I was just in contact with someone with a LGchem coupled to a solar edge inverter. He’s seeing at times 20-25% less capacity than rated kWh and pretty much never actual capacity. Tech support gives some wishy washy answers as to why this would be. Where is the difference, is it in the communication between units or the BMS? And funny as he’s never seeing more capacity. Maybe there are some inaccuracies in the BMS’s? Standard OB, trimetric and midnight wiz bang meters all require frequent meeting of charge parameters ( volt/amps) to keep the devices accurate. I’ve got 4 meters that I compare and if they are full daily it’s about 1-2% difference between them. If it’s been 7-10 days since full, then they could be off by 10-15%+ off. Curious what others are seeing Jay Peltz power. > On Aug 18, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Lou > Sounds like you are having the same issue we did, l adjusted the size of the battery down to 50% of the battery rating and so far the values appear to follow in. We will also be installing a DC CT on the egauge to see and have a better idea of whats going and out outside of the BMU > Jerry > >> On Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 12:09 PM Lou Russo wrote: >> Hello All, >> >> Does anybody have any insight in getting the SOC to report accurately on the Outback FNDC when using batteries that have a minimal voltage curve? I have several systems with LFP batteries that have both a eGauge (communicating directly with the battery BMU) and a FNDC and I get wildly different SOCs. In a typical 24 hour period (12am-12am) I get SOCs on the FNDC that vary 2% to 34% of what the battery BMUs are reporting. I am assuming that the BMUs are reporting accurately. I would think a 1%-5% difference would be acceptable. >> >> Any help or thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> lou at spreesolarsystems.com >> 808 345 6762 >> Spree Solar Systems LLC >> CT-34322 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Sat Aug 18 17:20:16 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 14:20:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOC, FNDC, and LFP batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1BFE2DDF-5D7A-4CA3-A154-12AF6787B1EF@starlightsolar.com> Hi Lou, On some of the Li battery brands that we sell, if the shunt current is +/- 1 Amp from zero, the current is not counted. On larger systems I have seen +/-2 Amps not counted. If the system spends much time there, counting error can accumulate. A battery can shut down on LV while the SoC meter still shows a high percentage. We have seen this several time from customers that don’t want to fully charge thinking they will make the Li battery last longer (damn internet blog myths). The solution is to fully charge regularly where the SoC counter is automatically reset when full charge parameters are met. If you can force the FNDC SoC to reset each time you full charge, it may provide better accuracy between your two counters. We often use Magnum Energy ME-BMK and it is always very close to the Li battery SoC because they both reset at full charge. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Aug 17, 2018, at 12:09 PM, Lou Russo wrote: Hello All, Does anybody have any insight in getting the SOC to report accurately on the Outback FNDC when using batteries that have a minimal voltage curve? I have several systems with LFP batteries that have both a eGauge (communicating directly with the battery BMU) and a FNDC and I get wildly different SOCs. In a typical 24 hour period (12am-12am) I get SOCs on the FNDC that vary 2% to 34% of what the battery BMUs are reporting. I am assuming that the BMUs are reporting accurately. I would think a 1%-5% difference would be acceptable. Any help or thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Aug 18 17:01:26 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 14:01:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOC, FNDC, and LFP batteries In-Reply-To: <9FC18FA2-9C65-49DE-BD99-83F68BC47B5F@gmail.com> References: <9FC18FA2-9C65-49DE-BD99-83F68BC47B5F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <305c131169535b7ab4c77b0736cd59a1@127.0.0.1> I think if the user wants to find the answer, he is going to have to hire someone who can read the CANBUS data out of the LG. It is very accurate from what I have seen for 2 years now in testing for Schneider. Here is a screen shot from a Raspberry monitoring the LG RESU and supplying the keep alive signal the LG needs. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 18 Aug 2018 12:57:38 -0700, Jay wrote: Interesting thread as I was just in contact with someone with a LGchem coupled to a solar edge inverter. He's seeing at times 20-25% less capacity than rated kWh and pretty much never actual capacity. Tech support gives some wishy washy answers as to why this would be. Where is the difference, is it in the communication between units or the BMS? And funny as he's never seeing more capacity. Maybe there are some inaccuracies in the BMS's? Standard OB, trimetric and midnight wiz bang meters all require frequent meeting of charge parameters ( volt/amps) to keep the devices accurate. I've got 4 meters that I compare and if they are full daily it's about 1-2% difference between them. If it's been 7-10 days since full, then they could be off by 10-15%+ off. Curious what others are seeing Jay Peltz power. On Aug 18, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Lou Sounds like you are having the same issue we did, l adjusted the size of the battery down to 50% of the battery rating and so far the values appear to follow in. We will also be installing a DC CT on the egauge to see and have a better idea of whats going and out outside of the BMU Jerry On Fri, Aug 17, 2018, 12:09 PM Lou Russo wrote: Hello All, Does anybody have any insight in getting the SOC to report accurately on the Outback FNDC when using batteries that have a minimal voltage curve? I have several systems with LFP batteries that have both a eGauge (communicating directly with the battery BMU) and a FNDC and I get wildly different SOCs. In a typical 24 hour period (12am-12am) I get SOCs on the FNDC that vary 2% to 34% of what the battery BMUs are reporting. I am assuming that the BMUs are reporting accurately. I would think a 1%-5% difference would be acceptable. Any help or thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com [5] 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] List rules border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [4] mailto:lou at spreesolarsystems.com [5] mailto:lou at spreesolarsystems.com [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: XW+ LG monitor.PNG Type: image/png Size: 36870 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Mon Aug 20 13:18:18 2018 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 11:18:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Altitude and controllers Message-ID: <015501d438a9$ca36e250$5ea4a6f0$@OasisMontana.com> Hi Folks: What is the deal with altitude restrictions on charge controllers and other solid state circuitry? We have a high altitude customer with some concerns. For example, Enphase wants their goods installed at under 2000 meters…. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Mon Aug 20 14:45:14 2018 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 11:45:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Altitude and controllers In-Reply-To: <015501d438a9$ca36e250$5ea4a6f0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <015501d438a9$ca36e250$5ea4a6f0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Chris, It's the components that are in the device (usually capacitors) that can fail. The failures are usually due to colder temperatures at these higher elevations. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 11:38 AM wrote: > Hi Folks: > > > > What is the deal with altitude restrictions on charge controllers and > other solid state circuitry? We have a high altitude customer with some > concerns. > > > > For example, Enphase wants their goods installed at under 2000 meters…. > > > > Best, > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Mon Aug 20 14:47:13 2018 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 11:47:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Altitude and controllers In-Reply-To: <015501d438a9$ca36e250$5ea4a6f0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <015501d438a9$ca36e250$5ea4a6f0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <7c4aa11b-8c57-dfe3-960a-2a41a4976543@berkeleysolar.com> Higher altitude equals lower air density equals lower capacity for heat transfer to atmosphere equals more heat build up inside equipment. On 8/20/2018 10:18 AM, chris at OasisMontana.com wrote: > > Hi Folks: > > What is the deal with altitude restrictions on charge controllers and > other solid state circuitry?We have a high altitude customer with some > concerns. > > For example, Enphase wants their goods installed at under 2000 meters…. > > Best, > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 14:48:08 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 13:48:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Altitude and controllers In-Reply-To: <015501d438a9$ca36e250$5ea4a6f0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <015501d438a9$ca36e250$5ea4a6f0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Of course, the heat rejection rate with a thinner atmosphere is reduced. The electrical capacity is then reduced. At higher altitudes, Outback recommended reduced input. IN your case it would mean smaller modules on the microinverter. On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 1:38 PM wrote: > Hi Folks: > > > > What is the deal with altitude restrictions on charge controllers and > other solid state circuitry? We have a high altitude customer with some > concerns. > > > > For example, Enphase wants their goods installed at under 2000 meters…. > > > > Best, > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Mon Aug 20 20:15:46 2018 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 14:15:46 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOC, FNDC, and LFP batteries In-Reply-To: <8D6CCE96-F5DE-47BB-8000-278F64584670@gmail.com> References: <8D6CCE96-F5DE-47BB-8000-278F64584670@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, The batteries are Blue Ion 2.0 from Blue Planet Energy, the 8kWh cabinet. The listed Maximum Continuous Charge and Maximum Discharge Rate is 1C. I have been able to get Midnite's Wizbang to reflect correctly for about 5 months (on a different system) but it has also started to wonder and since the MyMidnite2 portal is down I am unable to provide more details. I was super hopeful about the Wizbang. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 6:27 AM Jay wrote: > Hi Lou, > > Can you tell us which LFP batteries? > And what rates of discharge/charge? > > Thx > Jay > Peltz power. > > On Aug 17, 2018, at 12:09 PM, Lou Russo wrote: > > Hello All, > > Does anybody have any insight in getting the SOC to report accurately on > the Outback FNDC when using batteries that have a minimal voltage curve? I > have several systems with LFP batteries that have both a eGauge > (communicating directly with the battery BMU) and a FNDC and I get wildly > different SOCs. In a typical 24 hour period (12am-12am) I get SOCs on the > FNDC that vary 2% to 34% of what the battery BMUs are reporting. I am > assuming that the BMUs are reporting accurately. I would think a 1%-5% > difference would be acceptable. > > Any help or thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Aug 20 21:07:47 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 18:07:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non breakable RV modules Message-ID: <579BF326-9D85-45CE-A3A4-9A2B93EF8B40@gmail.com> Hi All What are good options for a portable module for RV use. One that you can move around, (it’s going to fall over)and connect with a cable to an camper. The old unisolar ones were perfect. Any recommendations are appreciated Size? 50-100 watts, 12v nominal. Thx Jay. From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Tue Aug 21 00:57:08 2018 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 21:57:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non breakable RV modules In-Reply-To: <579BF326-9D85-45CE-A3A4-9A2B93EF8B40@gmail.com> References: <579BF326-9D85-45CE-A3A4-9A2B93EF8B40@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay. Check out Gigasolarpv.com They make a composite material with crystaline cells. They get 156 watt from a 36 cell module. On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 6:07 PM Jay wrote: > Hi All > > What are good options for a portable module for RV use. > One that you can move around, (it’s going to fall over)and connect with a > cable to an camper. > > The old unisolar ones were perfect. > > Any recommendations are appreciated > Size? 50-100 watts, 12v nominal. > > Thx > Jay. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Aug 21 00:39:12 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 18:39:12 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non breakable RV modules In-Reply-To: <579BF326-9D85-45CE-A3A4-9A2B93EF8B40@gmail.com> References: <579BF326-9D85-45CE-A3A4-9A2B93EF8B40@gmail.com> Message-ID: Look to the 110-watt flexible panel from SunPower. Comes with MC connectors @ nominal 12V. Contact me offline for a spec sheet. marco On Monday, August 20, 2018, Jay wrote: > Hi All > > What are good options for a portable module for RV use. > One that you can move around, (it’s going to fall over)and connect with a > cable to an camper. > > The old unisolar ones were perfect. > > Any recommendations are appreciated > Size? 50-100 watts, 12v nominal. > > Thx > Jay. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 10:53:24 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 08:53:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non breakable RV modules In-Reply-To: References: <579BF326-9D85-45CE-A3A4-9A2B93EF8B40@gmail.com> Message-ID: Speaking of these lightweight flexible modules, has anyone found a good non-penetrating way to install these on RVs? I had a friend do one with industrial double sided tape and its been working well, but maybe there is a better way. Something that would allow a small air-gap between the solar cells and the surface if the RV would be perfect. Thanks On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 1:11 AM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Look to the 110-watt flexible panel from SunPower. > > Comes with MC connectors @ nominal 12V. > > Contact me offline for a spec sheet. > > marco > > On Monday, August 20, 2018, Jay wrote: > >> Hi All >> >> What are good options for a portable module for RV use. >> One that you can move around, (it’s going to fall over)and connect with a >> cable to an camper. >> >> The old unisolar ones were perfect. >> >> Any recommendations are appreciated >> Size? 50-100 watts, 12v nominal. >> >> Thx >> Jay. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garrison.rie at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 11:09:02 2018 From: garrison.rie at gmail.com (Garrison) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 10:09:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tapping Parallel Conductors In-Reply-To: References: <579BF326-9D85-45CE-A3A4-9A2B93EF8B40@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44F02DA8-6657-4EE6-9B51-4FBC0EA1E5F2@gmail.com> Hi Wrenches, When making a supply side connection on parallel sets of conductors is it required to tap all conductors on each phase? I have a set of plans with an 800A interconnection on a 1200A service. Service has three parallel sets of 500MCM. Plans call for tapping just two conductors on each set of three. Plans are stamped by an EE. I had been working under the assumption that if tapping parallel sets all conductors must be tapped. Any issues with not tapping all sets? Thanks, Garrison Riegel Rethink Electric 630-998-3629 From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Aug 21 05:28:44 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 05:28:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non breakable RV modules Message-ID: Hi Jay, Look at the HQST Solar modules.Easy to find on Amazon for more information. Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------From: JayDate: Tue, Aug 21, 2018 12:33 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Non breakable RV modules Hi All What are good options for a portable module for RV use. One that you can move around, (it’s going to fall over)and connect with a cable to an camper. The old unisolar ones were perfect. Any recommendations are appreciated Size? 50-100 watts, 12v nominal. Thx Jay. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Aug 21 12:02:58 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 09:02:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tapping Parallel Conductors In-Reply-To: <44F02DA8-6657-4EE6-9B51-4FBC0EA1E5F2@gmail.com> References: <579BF326-9D85-45CE-A3A4-9A2B93EF8B40@gmail.com> <44F02DA8-6657-4EE6-9B51-4FBC0EA1E5F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Garrison, This is a new one for me - normally we always balance everything when dealing with paralleled conductors. NEC 310.10(H) talks about conductors in parallel and I can't see anything the explicitly forbids what you explained. To be safe, I think it is worth contacting the PE to double check that they were aware that there are three sets of parallel conductors on each phase. August Luminalt On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 8:09 AM Garrison wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > When making a supply side connection on parallel sets of conductors is it > required to tap all conductors on each phase? > > I have a set of plans with an 800A interconnection on a 1200A service. > Service has three parallel sets of 500MCM. Plans call for tapping just two > conductors on each set of three. Plans are stamped by an EE. I had been > working under the assumption that if tapping parallel sets all conductors > must be tapped. > > Any issues with not tapping all sets? > > Thanks, > > Garrison Riegel > Rethink Electric > 630-998-3629 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Aug 21 12:26:19 2018 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 10:26:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non breakable RV modules In-Reply-To: References: <579BF326-9D85-45CE-A3A4-9A2B93EF8B40@gmail.com> Message-ID: <019601d4396b$b1982890$14c879b0$@OasisMontana.com> These guys make some tough marine modules: http://www.cbcamerica.com/microsite/index.cfm?id=103682 Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of David Katz Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 10:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Non breakable RV modules Jay. Check out Gigasolarpv.com They make a composite material with crystaline cells. They get 156 watt from a 36 cell module. On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 6:07 PM Jay > wrote: Hi All What are good options for a portable module for RV use. One that you can move around, (it’s going to fall over)and connect with a cable to an camper. The old unisolar ones were perfect. Any recommendations are appreciated Size? 50-100 watts, 12v nominal. Thx Jay. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Aug 21 12:55:03 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 10:55:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOC and LFP batteries and TriMetric In-Reply-To: References: <8D6CCE96-F5DE-47BB-8000-278F64584670@gmail.com> Message-ID: <89b59079-9c31-8101-617f-2eb8a5020053@sindelarsolar.com> Wrenches, I  would like to broaden this topic a bit, please: we're currently installing our first Blue Ion LFP set (48kWh). I work almost exclusively with existing off grid systems, often older systems most of which have TriMetric monitors, either the TM2020 or newer TM2030. Has anyone successfully reprogrammed a TriMet to accurately register SOC and other data with LFP batteries? If so can you provide some guidance as to program settings? Thank you, Allan On 8/20/2018 6:15 PM, Lou Russo wrote: > Jay, > The batteries are Blue Ion 2.0 from Blue Planet Energy, the 8kWh > cabinet. The listed Maximum Continuous Charge and Maximum Discharge > Rate is 1C. > > Aloha, > Lou Russo > > On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 6:27 AM Jay > wrote: > > Hi Lou, > Can you tell us which LFP batteries? > And what rates of discharge/charge? > Jay > Peltz power. > > On Aug 17, 2018, at 12:09 PM, Lou Russo > wrote: > >> Hello All, >> >> >> Does anybody have any insight in getting the SOC to report >> accurately on the Outback FNDC when using batteries that have a >> minimal voltage curve? I have several systems with LFP batteries >> that have both a eGauge (communicating directly with the battery >> BMU) and a FNDC and I get wildly different SOCs. In a typical  24 >> hour period (12am-12am) I get SOCs on the FNDC that vary 2% to >> 34% of what the battery BMUs are reporting. I am assuming that >> the BMUs are reporting accurately. I would think a 1%-5% >> difference would be acceptable. >> >> >> Any help or thoughts on this subject  would be greatly appreciated. >> >> >> Aloha, >> Lou Russo > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Aug 21 13:23:25 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 10:23:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOC and LFP batteries and TriMetric In-Reply-To: <89b59079-9c31-8101-617f-2eb8a5020053@sindelarsolar.com> References: <8D6CCE96-F5DE-47BB-8000-278F64584670@gmail.com> <89b59079-9c31-8101-617f-2eb8a5020053@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <7f37e13a3b4ea952f1b643a5231094ab@127.0.0.1> In my opinion Blue Ion should help with this. When I was considering becoming a dealer they said they were going to get their Soc and temp data out to Outback and Schneider web portals. For me they never wanted to get their product out to major suppliers and I refused to deal with sales tax so we parted company. Ask them for the parameters to program. In the Schneider monitor there are 5+ parameters and with any monitor you have to install a shunt which is already in the Blue Ion. It is a great product but they have work to do, in my opinion. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 10:55:03 -0600, Sindelar Solar wrote: Wrenches, I would like to broaden this topic a bit, please: we're currently installing our first Blue Ion LFP set (48kWh). I work almost exclusively with existing off grid systems, often older systems most of which have TriMetric monitors, either the TM2020 or newer TM2030. Has anyone successfully reprogrammed a TriMet to accurately register SOC and other data with LFP batteries? If so can you provide some guidance as to program settings? Thank you, Allan On 8/20/2018 6:15 PM, Lou Russo wrote: Jay, The batteries are Blue Ion 2.0 from Blue Planet Energy, the 8kWh cabinet. The listed Maximum Continuous Charge and Maximum Discharge Rate is 1C. Aloha, Lou Russo On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 6:27 AM Jay wrote: Hi Lou, Can you tell us which LFP batteries? And what rates of discharge/charge? Jay Peltz power. On Aug 17, 2018, at 12:09 PM, Lou Russo wrote: Hello All, Does anybody have any insight in getting the SOC to report accurately on the Outback FNDC when using batteries that have a minimal voltage curve? I have several systems with LFP batteries that have both a eGauge (communicating directly with the battery BMU) and a FNDC and I get wildly different SOCs. In a typical 24 hour period (12am-12am) I get SOCs on the FNDC that vary 2% to 34% of what the battery BMUs are reporting. I am assuming that the BMUs are reporting accurately. I would think a 1%-5% difference would be acceptable. Any help or thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Aloha, Lou Russo -- ALLAN SINDELAR allan at sindelarsolar.com [5] NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 CELL -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [4] mailto:lou at spreesolarsystems.com [5] mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 13:29:53 2018 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 13:29:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOC and LFP batteries and TriMetric In-Reply-To: <89b59079-9c31-8101-617f-2eb8a5020053@sindelarsolar.com> References: <8D6CCE96-F5DE-47BB-8000-278F64584670@gmail.com> <89b59079-9c31-8101-617f-2eb8a5020053@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Allan, have you talked directly with Bogart? Howie On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 12:56 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Wrenches, > I would like to broaden this topic a bit, please: we're currently > installing our first Blue Ion LFP set (48kWh). I work almost exclusively > with existing off grid systems, often older systems most of which have > TriMetric monitors, either the TM2020 or newer TM2030. Has anyone > successfully reprogrammed a TriMet to accurately register SOC and other > data with LFP batteries? If so can you provide some guidance as to program > settings? > Thank you, > Allan > > On 8/20/2018 6:15 PM, Lou Russo wrote: > > Jay, > The batteries are Blue Ion 2.0 from Blue Planet Energy, the 8kWh cabinet. > The listed Maximum Continuous Charge and Maximum Discharge Rate is 1C. > > Aloha, > Lou Russo > > On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 6:27 AM Jay wrote: > >> Hi Lou, >> Can you tell us which LFP batteries? >> And what rates of discharge/charge? >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >> On Aug 17, 2018, at 12:09 PM, Lou Russo >> wrote: >> >> Hello All, >> >> Does anybody have any insight in getting the SOC to report accurately on >> the Outback FNDC when using batteries that have a minimal voltage curve? I >> have several systems with LFP batteries that have both a eGauge >> (communicating directly with the battery BMU) and a FNDC and I get wildly >> different SOCs. In a typical 24 hour period (12am-12am) I get SOCs on the >> FNDC that vary 2% to 34% of what the battery BMUs are reporting. I am >> assuming that the BMUs are reporting accurately. I would think a 1%-5% >> difference would be acceptable. >> >> Any help or thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Aloha, >> Lou Russo >> >> -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Aug 21 13:33:31 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 11:33:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non breakable RV modules In-Reply-To: <019601d4396b$b1982890$14c879b0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <579BF326-9D85-45CE-A3A4-9A2B93EF8B40@gmail.com> <019601d4396b$b1982890$14c879b0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: They look good, but the price/ watt is going back to the 1990s.....:-( What's your recommended attachment method for these? We get quite a few RVers calling, but I really am not into punching holes into fiberglass roofs with unknown structure beneath. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/21/18 10:26 AM, chris at OasisMontana.com wrote: > > These guys make some tough marine > modules:http://www.cbcamerica.com/microsite/index.cfm?id=103682 > > Best, > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > *From:*RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *David Katz > *Sent:* Monday, August 20, 2018 10:57 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Non breakable RV modules > > Jay. Check out Gigasolarpv.com > > They make a composite material with crystaline cells.  They get 156 > watt from a 36 cell module. > > On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 6:07 PM Jay > wrote: > > Hi All > > What are good options for a portable module for RV use. > One that you can move around, (it’s going to fall over)and connect > with a cable to an camper. > > The old unisolar ones were perfect. > > Any recommendations are appreciated > Size?  50-100 watts, 12v nominal. > > Thx > Jay. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 13:39:22 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 10:39:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOC and LFP batteries and TriMetric In-Reply-To: References: <8D6CCE96-F5DE-47BB-8000-278F64584670@gmail.com> <89b59079-9c31-8101-617f-2eb8a5020053@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <63A3B01B-1971-448F-8450-737FAD291C23@gmail.com> A follow up question to all of this: Does anyone know what parameters a BMS is using to determine SOC for lithium? A project I installed uses the Orion BMS jr for lithium batteries. It uses a normal shunt, voltage and also measures internal cell resistance to determine SOC. Jay Peltz Power > On Aug 21, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Allan, have you talked directly with Bogart? > Howie > >> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 12:56 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: >> Wrenches, >> I would like to broaden this topic a bit, please: we're currently installing our first Blue Ion LFP set (48kWh). I work almost exclusively with existing off grid systems, often older systems most of which have TriMetric monitors, either the TM2020 or newer TM2030. Has anyone successfully reprogrammed a TriMet to accurately register SOC and other data with LFP batteries? If so can you provide some guidance as to program settings? >> Thank you, >> Allan >> >>> On 8/20/2018 6:15 PM, Lou Russo wrote: >>> Jay, >>> The batteries are Blue Ion 2.0 from Blue Planet Energy, the 8kWh cabinet. The listed Maximum Continuous Charge and Maximum Discharge Rate is 1C. >>> >>> Aloha, >>> Lou Russo >>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 6:27 AM Jay wrote: >>>> Hi Lou, >>>> Can you tell us which LFP batteries? >>>> And what rates of discharge/charge? >>>> Jay >>>> Peltz power. >>>> >>>> On Aug 17, 2018, at 12:09 PM, Lou Russo wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello All, >>>>> >>>>> Does anybody have any insight in getting the SOC to report accurately on the Outback FNDC when using batteries that have a minimal voltage curve? I have several systems with LFP batteries that have both a eGauge (communicating directly with the battery BMU) and a FNDC and I get wildly different SOCs. In a typical 24 hour period (12am-12am) I get SOCs on the FNDC that vary 2% to 34% of what the battery BMUs are reporting. I am assuming that the BMUs are reporting accurately. I would think a 1%-5% difference would be acceptable. >>>>> >>>>> Any help or thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated. >>>>> >>>>> Aloha, >>>>> Lou Russo >> -- >> Allan Sindelar >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> 505 780-2738 cell >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at windstreamsolar.com Tue Aug 21 14:17:31 2018 From: gary at windstreamsolar.com (Gary Higbee) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 11:17:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC-DC converter for SQFlex Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I’m assisting a customer and well person in replacing a failed Lorentz ETApump (after 15 years of intermittent use). We’re looking for a quality DC-DC converter to power a not-yet- ordered Grundfos SQFlex 6 SQF-3 from a 24 V Surrette battery bank (wish it was 48!). The pump draws a max of 8.4A and the curves say we’ll need about 600 watts so I figure we’d want at least 70 volts out. Ideal would be a higher DC output, say 200V (save a couple hundred feet of larger copper, greater efficiency) and at least 3A (see questions). The primary power source will be 240V AC but my customer wants a fallback for battery operation. We plan to use the Grundfos IO 101 SQFlex switch box, which will switch to DC if the AC fails. Also the CU 200 SQFlex control unit, so we can accommodate the existing float switch up the hill, etc. The Grundfos tech person I spoke with today said the DC system should be able to supply 8.4A, regardless of the DC voltage.The pump curve says we need 600W for maximum performance at the lift we’ve got. It seems to me that if we’ve got 200V and need 600W we’d be drawing 3A. Yet if the Grundfos factory line is there should be 8.4A available that’s 1680W. The tech guy said he didn’t have specific information why we’d need 8.4A regardless of pump input voltage. The Grundfos Product Guide says: Max. ratings are as follows: • Maximum power input (P1) of 1400 W • maximum current of 8.4 A • maximum speed of 3600 rpm (think I read somewhere it’s 3000 rpm for this helical rotor model) The pump delivers its maximum performance when one of the above parameters is reached. Two questions: 1) Do any of you have experience running the SQFlex on DC, and what to make of the 8.4A at any input voltage factory recommendation? Maybe basic amps/volts/power calculations aren’t applicable given the pump electronics? 2) Are you aware of any DC-DC converters that will get us from a nominal 24V battery bank to 200V, or somewhere between 70 and 200V, with an appropriate current limiting amp rating to get us at least 600W (depending on thoughts regarding the above question)? Thank you, Gary Gary Higbee Windstream Solar Oregon License 17LRT Renewable Energy Consulting gary at windstreamsolar.com 541-954-3881 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Aug 21 14:03:40 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 14:03:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non breakable RV modules Message-ID: <10jmg1bpbff7kthp7hoetnuv.1534874330957@email.lge.com> Prices are what they are for a premium, low volume product. They easily could be higher, but for a leisure type product, are not horrible. This YouTube guy has experimented with using Eternabond to tape down the perimeter of a module directly to the RV rooftop with pretty good success. He also has videos of him screwing them down through the grommets and sealing the perimeter with Dicor. A great many RV rooftops are not fiberglass, but a rubber membrane with thin plywood beneath, so some substance to be had.  Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------From: RayDate: Tue, Aug 21, 2018 1:33 PMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Non breakable RV modules They look good, but the price/ watt is going back to the 1990s.....:-(  What's your recommended attachment method for these?  We get quite a few RVers calling, but I really am not into punching holes into fiberglass roofs with unknown structure beneath. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/21/18 10:26 AM, chris at OasisMontana.com wrote: These guys make some tough marine modules:  http://www.cbcamerica.com/microsite/index.cfm?id=103682   Best,   Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com           From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of David Katz Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 10:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Non breakable RV modules   Jay. Check out Gigasolarpv.com    They make a composite material with crystaline cells.  They get 156 watt from a 36 cell module.    On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 6:07 PM Jay wrote: Hi All What are good options for a portable module for RV use. One that you can move around, (it’s going to fall over)and connect with a cable to an camper. The old unisolar ones were perfect. Any recommendations are appreciated Size?  50-100 watts, 12v nominal. Thx Jay. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 14:24:00 2018 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 11:24:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC-DC converter for SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is there an inverter, you could power it with 120 or 240V AC? On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 11:17 AM Gary Higbee wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I’m assisting a customer and well person in replacing a failed Lorentz > ETApump (after 15 years of intermittent use). We’re looking for a quality > DC-DC converter to power a not-yet- ordered Grundfos SQFlex 6 SQF-3 from a > 24 V Surrette battery bank (wish it was 48!). The pump draws a max of 8.4A > and the curves say we’ll need about 600 watts so I figure we’d want at > least 70 volts out. Ideal would be a higher DC output, say 200V (save a > couple hundred feet of larger copper, greater efficiency) and at least 3A > (see questions). > > The primary power source will be 240V AC but my customer wants a fallback > for battery operation. We plan to use the Grundfos IO 101 SQFlex switch > box, which will switch to DC if the AC fails. Also the CU 200 SQFlex > control unit, so we can accommodate the existing float switch up the hill, > etc. > > The Grundfos tech person I spoke with today said the DC system should be > able to supply 8.4A, regardless of the DC voltage.The pump curve says we > need 600W for maximum performance at the lift we’ve got. It seems to me > that if we’ve got 200V and need 600W we’d be drawing 3A. Yet if the > Grundfos factory line is there should be 8.4A available that’s 1680W. The > tech guy said he didn’t have specific information why we’d need 8.4A > regardless of pump input voltage. > > The Grundfos Product Guide says: > > *Max. ratings are as follows:* > *• Maximum power input (P1) of 1400 W* > *• maximum current of 8.4 A* > *• maximum speed of 3600 rpm *(think I read somewhere it’s 3000 rpm for > this helical rotor model) > > *The pump delivers its maximum performance when **one of the above > parameters is reached.* > > Two questions: > > 1) Do any of you have experience running the SQFlex on DC, and what to > make of the 8.4A at any input voltage factory recommendation? Maybe basic > amps/volts/power calculations aren’t applicable given the pump electronics? > > 2) Are you aware of any DC-DC converters that will get us from a nominal > 24V battery bank to 200V, or somewhere between 70 and 200V, with an > appropriate current limiting amp rating to get us at least 600W (depending > on thoughts regarding the above question)? > > > Thank you, > > Gary > > Gary Higbee > Windstream Solar > Oregon License 17LRT > Renewable Energy Consulting > gary at windstreamsolar.com > 541-954-3881 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-884-1862 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Aug 21 15:18:33 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 13:18:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC-DC converter for SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8465ffc6-b5b2-ac7a-aaa9-e36917fd6f91@solarray.com> I agree that an inverter is your most viable voltage converter. There is no good reason to go DC to DC that I can see.  The other option would be to switch the array to operate the pump directly. Use a Charge controller that operates the array at the same voltage the pump needs to operate at, and have an array transfer switch from CC to pump. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/21/18 12:24 PM, MDElectricSolar wrote: > Is there an inverter, you could power it with 120 or 240V AC? > > On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 11:17 AM Gary Higbee > wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I’m assisting a customer and well person in replacing a failed > Lorentz ETApump (after 15 years of intermittent use). We’re > looking for a quality DC-DC converter to power a not-yet- ordered > Grundfos SQFlex 6 SQF-3 from a 24 V Surrette battery bank (wish it > was 48!). The pump draws a max of 8.4A and the curves say we’ll > need about 600 watts so I figure we’d want at least 70 volts out. > Ideal would be a higher DC output, say 200V (save a couple hundred > feet of larger copper, greater efficiency) and at least 3A (see > questions). > > The primary power source will be 240V AC but my customer wants a > fallback for battery operation. We plan to use the Grundfos IO 101 > SQFlex switch box, which will switch to DC if the AC fails. Also > the CU 200 SQFlex control unit, so we can accommodate the existing > float switch up the hill, etc. > > The Grundfos tech person I spoke with today said the DC system > should be able to supply 8.4A, regardless of the DC voltage.The > pump curve says we need 600W for maximum performance at the lift > we’ve got. It seems to me that if we’ve got 200V and need 600W > we’d be drawing 3A. Yet if the Grundfos factory line is there > should be 8.4A available that’s 1680W. The tech guy said he didn’t > have specific information why we’d need 8.4A regardless of pump > input voltage. > > The Grundfos Product Guide says: > > *Max. ratings are as follows:* > *• Maximum power input (P1) of 1400 W* > *• maximum current of 8.4 A* > *• maximum speed of 3600 rpm *(think I read somewhere it’s 3000 > rpm for this helical rotor model) > * > * > *The pump delivers its maximum performance when **one of the above > parameters is reached.* > > Two questions: > > 1) Do any of you have experience running the SQFlex on DC, and > what to make of the 8.4A at any input voltage factory > recommendation? Maybe basic amps/volts/power calculations aren’t > applicable given the pump electronics? > > 2) Are you aware of any DC-DC converters that will get us from a > nominal 24V battery bank to 200V, or somewhere between 70 and > 200V, with an appropriate current limiting amp rating to get us at > least 600W (depending on thoughts regarding the above question)? > > > Thank you, > > Gary > > Gary Higbee > Windstream Solar > Oregon License 17LRT > Renewable Energy Consulting > gary at windstreamsolar.com > 541-954-3881 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-884-1862 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Aug 21 15:26:18 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 13:26:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOC and LFP batteries and TriMetric In-Reply-To: References: <8D6CCE96-F5DE-47BB-8000-278F64584670@gmail.com> <89b59079-9c31-8101-617f-2eb8a5020053@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <8fba3da4-040b-06ae-bf9c-c2bc42e88d2c@sindelarsolar.com> Yes, I just did. Ralph retired last year and I spoke with the new owner. In short, little change - use 2% of capacity for amp threshold and set CEF to 98% from default 94%. I was also told to stick with the default 14.1V voltage threshold, but that equates to 56.4V for a 48V system, which is above the normal range of these batteries, so I'm reluctant to take that advice. I'm working with Kyle Bolger of Blue Planet on this first installation, and will post to the list what I learn that will benefit others. Thank you, Allan On 8/21/2018 11:29 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Allan, have you talked directly with Bogart? > Howie > > On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 12:56 PM Sindelar Solar > > wrote: > > Wrenches, > I  would like to broaden this topic a bit, please: we're currently > installing our first Blue Ion LFP set (48kWh). I work almost > exclusively with existing off grid systems, often older systems > most of which have TriMetric monitors, either the TM2020 or newer > TM2030. Has anyone successfully reprogrammed a TriMet to > accurately register SOC and other data with LFP batteries? If so > can you provide some guidance as to program settings? > Thank you, > Allan > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Aug 21 15:17:56 2018 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 19:17:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC-DC converter for SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Gary, The SQFlex is current limited to 8.4A regardless of voltage. I have not had positive experiences running SQFlex from DC voltage from a battery. It can work, but you will not get full output volume if you are restricted to 48VDC. The SQFlex is really designed to work with higher DC voltages up to 300 VDC from PV arrays. We run many at 120VDC PV direct and that works well. I expect, not tested, that a 120VDC battery bank would also run it well but that is uncommon. Have you considered having a second small inverter from the battery to fulfil customer's request for redundant power supply? Lots simpler. That is what we ended up doing on a few sites we did try DC, 24V 600W inverters are low cost and simple. Or could you switch some of the PV to use as DC-direct as a backup? Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Gary Higbee Sent: August-21-18 11:18 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC-DC converter for SQFlex Hi Wrenches, I’m assisting a customer and well person in replacing a failed Lorentz ETApump (after 15 years of intermittent use). We’re looking for a quality DC-DC converter to power a not-yet- ordered Grundfos SQFlex 6 SQF-3 from a 24 V Surrette battery bank (wish it was 48!). The pump draws a max of 8.4A and the curves say we’ll need about 600 watts so I figure we’d want at least 70 volts out. Ideal would be a higher DC output, say 200V (save a couple hundred feet of larger copper, greater efficiency) and at least 3A (see questions). The primary power source will be 240V AC but my customer wants a fallback for battery operation. We plan to use the Grundfos IO 101 SQFlex switch box, which will switch to DC if the AC fails. Also the CU 200 SQFlex control unit, so we can accommodate the existing float switch up the hill, etc. The Grundfos tech person I spoke with today said the DC system should be able to supply 8.4A, regardless of the DC voltage.The pump curve says we need 600W for maximum performance at the lift we’ve got. It seems to me that if we’ve got 200V and need 600W we’d be drawing 3A. Yet if the Grundfos factory line is there should be 8.4A available that’s 1680W. The tech guy said he didn’t have specific information why we’d need 8.4A regardless of pump input voltage. The Grundfos Product Guide says: Max. ratings are as follows: • Maximum power input (P1) of 1400 W • maximum current of 8.4 A • maximum speed of 3600 rpm (think I read somewhere it’s 3000 rpm for this helical rotor model) The pump delivers its maximum performance when one of the above parameters is reached. Two questions: 1) Do any of you have experience running the SQFlex on DC, and what to make of the 8.4A at any input voltage factory recommendation? Maybe basic amps/volts/power calculations aren’t applicable given the pump electronics? 2) Are you aware of any DC-DC converters that will get us from a nominal 24V battery bank to 200V, or somewhere between 70 and 200V, with an appropriate current limiting amp rating to get us at least 600W (depending on thoughts regarding the above question)? Thank you, Gary Gary Higbee Windstream Solar Oregon License 17LRT Renewable Energy Consulting gary at windstreamsolar.com 541-954-3881 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 16:02:28 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 13:02:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC-DC converter for SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96F2902F-D964-4131-A91C-0042814EA9FF@gmail.com> HI Gary, The customer is always right, ha. If they want a DC option, I know you can find the right part. As to how big of a DC DC converter, yea I would want it to handle whatever the pump could draw. If there is any way that a valve could be closed or a pipe frozen or clogged, the pump will push and push and push and draw max amount of watts. Under normal load, it won’t of course. PV direct you’ll be watt limited, but with a battery, no limits up to max pump watt draw and you don’t want the converter to fail. jay peltz power > On Aug 21, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Gary Higbee wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I’m assisting a customer and well person in replacing a failed Lorentz ETApump (after 15 years of intermittent use). We’re looking for a quality DC-DC converter to power a not-yet- ordered Grundfos SQFlex 6 SQF-3 from a 24 V Surrette battery bank (wish it was 48!). The pump draws a max of 8.4A and the curves say we’ll need about 600 watts so I figure we’d want at least 70 volts out. Ideal would be a higher DC output, say 200V (save a couple hundred feet of larger copper, greater efficiency) and at least 3A (see questions). > > The primary power source will be 240V AC but my customer wants a fallback for battery operation. We plan to use the Grundfos IO 101 SQFlex switch box, which will switch to DC if the AC fails. Also the CU 200 SQFlex control unit, so we can accommodate the existing float switch up the hill, etc. > > The Grundfos tech person I spoke with today said the DC system should be able to supply 8.4A, regardless of the DC voltage.The pump curve says we need 600W for maximum performance at the lift we’ve got. It seems to me that if we’ve got 200V and need 600W we’d be drawing 3A. Yet if the Grundfos factory line is there should be 8.4A available that’s 1680W. The tech guy said he didn’t have specific information why we’d need 8.4A regardless of pump input voltage. > > The Grundfos Product Guide says: > > Max. ratings are as follows: > • Maximum power input (P1) of 1400 W > • maximum current of 8.4 A > • maximum speed of 3600 rpm (think I read somewhere it’s 3000 rpm for this helical rotor model) > > The pump delivers its maximum performance when one of the above parameters is reached. > > Two questions: > > 1) Do any of you have experience running the SQFlex on DC, and what to make of the 8.4A at any input voltage factory recommendation? Maybe basic amps/volts/power calculations aren’t applicable given the pump electronics? > > 2) Are you aware of any DC-DC converters that will get us from a nominal 24V battery bank to 200V, or somewhere between 70 and 200V, with an appropriate current limiting amp rating to get us at least 600W (depending on thoughts regarding the above question)? > > > Thank you, > > Gary > > Gary Higbee > Windstream Solar > Oregon License 17LRT > Renewable Energy Consulting > gary at windstreamsolar.com > 541-954-3881 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Aug 21 21:03:44 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 18:03:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOC and LFP batteries and TriMetric In-Reply-To: <8fba3da4-040b-06ae-bf9c-c2bc42e88d2c@sindelarsolar.com> References: <8D6CCE96-F5DE-47BB-8000-278F64584670@gmail.com> <89b59079-9c31-8101-617f-2eb8a5020053@sindelarsolar.com> <8fba3da4-040b-06ae-bf9c-c2bc42e88d2c@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Allan, All LFP batteries can be charged to a much higher voltage than we will ever use. Some as high as 4.2Vpc. A disconnect voltage of 3.8 Vpc is typical protection voltage for LFP batteries which is below the well maximum charge voltage. Some recommend charging to 3.65Vpc, others a little less. 56.4 is low at 3.52V. Our cell balancers don’t even start to function until 3.5 volts and above. Using a low voltage can also cause a problem with the SoC calculations. Using a Trimetric is easy if you use a high enough charge voltage of 3.55Vpc or higher and charge at .5C or less. You can use L1 settings only, P7 Off. Simply setup the reset parameter P1 voltage about 0.2V below charge voltage. Leave P2 Charge Amps off. Set P3 AH to match actual capacity. When voltage parameter is met, you are close enough and it resets to 100%. This is due to internal resistance. Your voltage will not go high until you are at about 98% or so. FWIW, if your concern is about harming the Li cells, we have never had a single cell failure. We have had several ruined cells from neglect caused by over discharging when people did not follow EMS assembly instructions. With 4 cells in a 12 volt battery pack, I am talking about thousands of cells we have sold in the last 5 years. LFP is rugged, very fast to charge and will last a long time with little care. When I read things about Li batteries on the internet, it makes my head spin from all the folklore, falsehoods and fear-born myths. Careful what you read. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Aug 21, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: Yes, I just did. Ralph retired last year and I spoke with the new owner. In short, little change - use 2% of capacity for amp threshold and set CEF to 98% from default 94%. I was also told to stick with the default 14.1V voltage threshold, but that equates to 56.4V for a 48V system, which is above the normal range of these batteries, so I'm reluctant to take that advice. I'm working with Kyle Bolger of Blue Planet on this first installation, and will post to the list what I learn that will benefit others. Thank you, Allan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 21 22:14:10 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 21:14:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC-DC converter for SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: let me make a stupid suggestion, why not dedicate an inverter? Ask Grundfos if modified sine wave would be OK or use something like the Outback FXR sine wave inverter or the Magnum, or the Schneider.SW4024. On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 1:17 PM Gary Higbee wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I’m assisting a customer and well person in replacing a failed Lorentz > ETApump (after 15 years of intermittent use). We’re looking for a quality > DC-DC converter to power a not-yet- ordered Grundfos SQFlex 6 SQF-3 from a > 24 V Surrette battery bank (wish it was 48!). The pump draws a max of 8.4A > and the curves say we’ll need about 600 watts so I figure we’d want at > least 70 volts out. Ideal would be a higher DC output, say 200V (save a > couple hundred feet of larger copper, greater efficiency) and at least 3A > (see questions). > > The primary power source will be 240V AC but my customer wants a fallback > for battery operation. We plan to use the Grundfos IO 101 SQFlex switch > box, which will switch to DC if the AC fails. Also the CU 200 SQFlex > control unit, so we can accommodate the existing float switch up the hill, > etc. > > The Grundfos tech person I spoke with today said the DC system should be > able to supply 8.4A, regardless of the DC voltage.The pump curve says we > need 600W for maximum performance at the lift we’ve got. It seems to me > that if we’ve got 200V and need 600W we’d be drawing 3A. Yet if the > Grundfos factory line is there should be 8.4A available that’s 1680W. The > tech guy said he didn’t have specific information why we’d need 8.4A > regardless of pump input voltage. > > The Grundfos Product Guide says: > > *Max. ratings are as follows:* > *• Maximum power input (P1) of 1400 W* > *• maximum current of 8.4 A* > *• maximum speed of 3600 rpm *(think I read somewhere it’s 3000 rpm for > this helical rotor model) > > *The pump delivers its maximum performance when **one of the above > parameters is reached.* > > Two questions: > > 1) Do any of you have experience running the SQFlex on DC, and what to > make of the 8.4A at any input voltage factory recommendation? Maybe basic > amps/volts/power calculations aren’t applicable given the pump electronics? > > 2) Are you aware of any DC-DC converters that will get us from a nominal > 24V battery bank to 200V, or somewhere between 70 and 200V, with an > appropriate current limiting amp rating to get us at least 600W (depending > on thoughts regarding the above question)? > > > Thank you, > > Gary > > Gary Higbee > Windstream Solar > Oregon License 17LRT > Renewable Energy Consulting > gary at windstreamsolar.com > 541-954-3881 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Aug 22 02:16:34 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 02:16:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Non breakable RV modules Message-ID: Forgot the link...sheesh. https://youtu.be/h1nmUjiNq2s Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------From: glenn.burt at glbcc.comDate: Tue, Aug 21, 2018 3:00 PMTo: Ray;re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Non breakable RV modules Prices are what they are for a premium, low volume product. They easily could be higher, but for a leisure type product, are not horrible. This YouTube guy has experimented with using Eternabond to tape down the perimeter of a module directly to the RV rooftop with pretty good success. He also has videos of him screwing them down through the grommets and sealing the perimeter with Dicor. A great many RV rooftops are not fiberglass, but a rubber membrane with thin plywood beneath, so some substance to be had.  Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------From: RayDate: Tue, Aug 21, 2018 1:33 PMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Non breakable RV modules They look good, but the price/ watt is going back to the 1990s.....:-(  What's your recommended attachment method for these?  We get quite a few RVers calling, but I really am not into punching holes into fiberglass roofs with unknown structure beneath. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/21/18 10:26 AM, chris at OasisMontana.com wrote: These guys make some tough marine modules:  http://www.cbcamerica.com/microsite/index.cfm?id=103682   Best,   Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com           From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of David Katz Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 10:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Non breakable RV modules   Jay. Check out Gigasolarpv.com    They make a composite material with crystaline cells.  They get 156 watt from a 36 cell module.    On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 6:07 PM Jay wrote: Hi All What are good options for a portable module for RV use. One that you can move around, (it’s going to fall over)and connect with a cable to an camper. The old unisolar ones were perfect. Any recommendations are appreciated Size?  50-100 watts, 12v nominal. Thx Jay. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Aug 22 10:34:04 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 07:34:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC-DC converter for SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The customer needs education! The SQ should be powered from 240vac and the CU can run a generator input if needed. AC power should be designed so that it never goes away offgrid in my opinion. There should be a water tank that can give time to make repairs. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Wed Aug 22 16:27:22 2018 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 20:27:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Altitude and controllers In-Reply-To: References: <015501d438a9$ca36e250$5ea4a6f0$@OasisMontana.com>, Message-ID: To clarify, the altitude restriction that Enphase sets is only related to the Envoy and Combiner Boxes, but does not apply to microinverters or other accessories. Please contact me off-list if you are having any issues with the altitude restriction. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell [Enphase_esig_logo6.jpg] Energy Evolved™ Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 Texas Master Electrician #284451 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Darryl Thayer Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 11:48 AM To: newrewrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Altitude and controllers Of course, the heat rejection rate with a thinner atmosphere is reduced. The electrical capacity is then reduced. At higher altitudes, Outback recommended reduced input. IN your case it would mean smaller modules on the microinverter. On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 1:38 PM > wrote: Hi Folks: What is the deal with altitude restrictions on charge controllers and other solid state circuitry? We have a high altitude customer with some concerns. For example, Enphase wants their goods installed at under 2000 meters…. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Aug 22 15:39:40 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 12:39:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase CTs Message-ID: <81afd64c9ac756cbeae665e33a812b8e@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am fixin’ to install an Enphase system with the Envoy-S and the AC combiner box. I wish to monitor consumption. It appears to me that Enphase offers only one model of CT which may be a bit large for the space I have. The panel is only 100 Amps and thus has smaller feeder conductor than a 200 A would. Does anyone know if one can substitute other manufacturer’s CTs in an Enphase system? As always, thanks for any input. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From garrison.rie at gmail.com Wed Aug 22 22:10:18 2018 From: garrison.rie at gmail.com (Garrison) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 21:10:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tapping Parallel Conductors In-Reply-To: References: <579BF326-9D85-45CE-A3A4-9A2B93EF8B40@gmail.com> <44F02DA8-6657-4EE6-9B51-4FBC0EA1E5F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <31E96877-8DD7-4D2B-A826-6C1CC8BBD427@gmail.com> Thanks for the reply August. I’m working to get in touch with the engineer so we’ll see what they say. I agree balancing the tap on all parallel conductors sounds like it would avoid the possibility of any issue, but I can’t think of what the problem would be if current from the grid were decreased on one or two conductors of a set. Any physicists out there have any opinions? A while back a reputable metering company told me I could put a single CT on one of six conductors from each set on a 2,000A service to get “revenue grade” meter data. I wasn’t sure they we right so I measured current on various conductors on each phase using multiple meters and saw significant deviations in on each conductor. I’m guessing differences in conductor length, terminal torque, bending radius, etc may have been an influence, but honestly not sure. If this is normal then maybe tapping only one or two conductors is not an issue? Coincidentally we are installing an 11.4kW inverter on a home (mansion) with a 1200A service (massive geothermal system) and a whole house generator. Luckily there is an extra lug in the ATS where we can land the inverter output on the line side, but if we did not have this lug the idea of splitting the 60A circuit across three conductors seems a little silly. Tap one #12 per 500MCM :)? Logically I see reason for possible concern on the commercial system, but with a smaller inverter it seems almost ridiculous...but if it’s fine for a small system then what’s the threshold? Thanks for any and all thoughts on this. Garrison > On Aug 21, 2018, at 11:02 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Garrison, > > This is a new one for me - normally we always balance everything when dealing with paralleled conductors. NEC 310.10(H) talks about conductors in parallel and I can't see anything the explicitly forbids what you explained. To be safe, I think it is worth contacting the PE to double check that they were aware that there are three sets of parallel conductors on each phase. > > August > Luminalt > > >> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 8:09 AM Garrison wrote: >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> When making a supply side connection on parallel sets of conductors is it required to tap all conductors on each phase? >> >> I have a set of plans with an 800A interconnection on a 1200A service. Service has three parallel sets of 500MCM. Plans call for tapping just two conductors on each set of three. Plans are stamped by an EE. I had been working under the assumption that if tapping parallel sets all conductors must be tapped. >> >> Any issues with not tapping all sets? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Garrison Riegel >> Rethink Electric >> 630-998-3629 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at windstreamsolar.com Wed Aug 22 23:11:59 2018 From: gary at windstreamsolar.com (Gary Higbee) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 20:11:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC-DC converter for SQFlex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Thanks, all, for your responses. This recently retired ER Doc customer does have an inverter system (old SW’s, one not so good on the scope). Grid and also two generators, Wanted a DC solution also. I like the Grundfos pumps so far, not their opinion to double the battery bank so it’s 48 and use their charge controller. I see their expertise is AC only, or PV-direct DC. Yes, there’s likely a DC-DC solution, somewhere out there, and it can be worked out given enough money and research. Seems Grundfos somewhat admits this. Good pump no matter, it seems. AC or PV-direct. Take care, Gary Gary Higbee Windstream Solart gary at windstreamsolar.com 541-954-3881 > On Aug 21, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Gary Higbee wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > I’m assisting a customer and well person in replacing a failed Lorentz ETApump (after 15 years of intermittent use). We’re looking for a quality DC-DC converter to power a not-yet- ordered Grundfos SQFlex 6 SQF-3 from a 24 V Surrette battery bank (wish it was 48!). The pump draws a max of 8.4A and the curves say we’ll need about 600 watts so I figure we’d want at least 70 volts out. Ideal would be a higher DC output, say 200V (save a couple hundred feet of larger copper, greater efficiency) and at least 3A (see questions). > > The primary power source will be 240V AC but my customer wants a fallback for battery operation. We plan to use the Grundfos IO 101 SQFlex switch box, which will switch to DC if the AC fails. Also the CU 200 SQFlex control unit, so we can accommodate the existing float switch up the hill, etc. > > The Grundfos tech person I spoke with today said the DC system should be able to supply 8.4A, regardless of the DC voltage.The pump curve says we need 600W for maximum performance at the lift we’ve got. It seems to me that if we’ve got 200V and need 600W we’d be drawing 3A. Yet if the Grundfos factory line is there should be 8.4A available that’s 1680W. The tech guy said he didn’t have specific information why we’d need 8.4A regardless of pump input voltage. > > The Grundfos Product Guide says: > > Max. ratings are as follows: > • Maximum power input (P1) of 1400 W > • maximum current of 8.4 A > • maximum speed of 3600 rpm (think I read somewhere it’s 3000 rpm for this helical rotor model) > > The pump delivers its maximum performance when one of the above parameters is reached. > > Two questions: > > 1) Do any of you have experience running the SQFlex on DC, and what to make of the 8.4A at any input voltage factory recommendation? Maybe basic amps/volts/power calculations aren’t applicable given the pump electronics? > > 2) Are you aware of any DC-DC converters that will get us from a nominal 24V battery bank to 200V, or somewhere between 70 and 200V, with an appropriate current limiting amp rating to get us at least 600W (depending on thoughts regarding the above question)? > > > Thank you, > > Gary > > Gary Higbee > Windstream Solar > Oregon License 17LRT > Renewable Energy Consulting > gary at windstreamsolar.com > 541-954-3881 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Wed Aug 22 21:43:49 2018 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 01:43:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase CTs In-Reply-To: <81afd64c9ac756cbeae665e33a812b8e@mail.gmail.com> References: <81afd64c9ac756cbeae665e33a812b8e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William, Our metered Envoys in North America can only be used with the Enphase 200A consumption CTs (CT-200-SPLIT). Many of the off-the-shelf CT options have an embedded burden resistor and output millivolts. Our CTs output milliAmps and we have embedded the burden resistor on the Envoy board. Unfortunately, you won't find an alternate CT. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell [Enphase_esig_logo6.jpg] Energy Evolved™ Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 Texas Master Electrician #284451 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 12:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase CTs Friends: I am fixin’ to install an Enphase system with the Envoy-S and the AC combiner box. I wish to monitor consumption. It appears to me that Enphase offers only one model of CT which may be a bit large for the space I have. The panel is only 100 Amps and thus has smaller feeder conductor than a 200 A would. Does anyone know if one can substitute other manufacturer’s CTs in an Enphase system? As always, thanks for any input. William Miller [Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Aug 23 00:31:57 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 22:31:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again? Message-ID: <2c16302c-d422-b8d3-8d4d-c036568a0341@solarray.com> Greetings fellow wrenches; I know we have beat this many times but I once again have not been able to resolve the contradictory information in 690 in regards to implementing 690.12.  As Rebekah Hren pointed out before, the diagrams shown in Figure 690.1(b) show that the /PV System DC Circuit/ stops at the /PV Disconnect/.  Note 2 says specifically the '/PV Disconnect separates the PV system from all other systems/'.  But then in the definitions in 690.2 on the next page, the new definition of a /P//V System DC Circuit/ says that it includes DC to DC converter output circuits.  (which are Solar Edge module level controls, but could be interpreted as a MPPT battery charge Controller?) Then 690.12 which only applies to '/PV System circuits in or on buildings/', says we have to control conductors more than 3 ft after penetrating the building. So in my case, I'm looking at a ground mount, and installing an external lockable disconnect on the wall before it goes into the building.  This will officially be the PV Disconnect.  In my interpretation, I should not need to do any Rapid Shutdown, because I've essentially prevented the /PV system/ from ever entering the building at all ( based on the 5th diagram and Note 2)  However, I could see an AHJ claiming I had to do RS all the way to the output side of the charge controller. If this were true, could I simply apply RS equipment from the PV disconnect to the output of the charge controller, or am I back to module level shutdown for my ground mounted array, or could I build a tiny building that just housed the PV Disconnect and take the exemption for '/buildings with the sole purpose of housing PV system equipment/'? Essentially the definitions in 690.2 are too broad, and are at odds with the Figure and Notes of 690.1.  They really didn't fix this in the 2017 code for us lowly off gridders. Charge controllers are covered by article 706.23___/Charge Control/_,**and NOT by 690.12 at all. IMHO, the charge controller needs to be clearly defined and differentiated from DC to DC converters like Solar Edge's module level DC equipment. I just want to go back to doing solar designs and installations, and quit acting like an attorney parsing every word of this confusing code language. -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Thu Aug 23 08:03:44 2018 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 08:03:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again? References: <2c16302c-d422-b8d3-8d4d-c036568a0341@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray We understand that free standing ground mounts, pole barns / ( free standing buildings with no one staying or living in them ) equipment sheds etc are exempt from Rapid shut down. peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray To: RE-wrenches ; Rebecca Cantwell Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 12:31 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again? Greetings fellow wrenches; I know we have beat this many times but I once again have not been able to resolve the contradictory information in 690 in regards to implementing 690.12. As Rebekah Hren pointed out before, the diagrams shown in Figure 690.1(b) show that the PV System DC Circuit stops at the PV Disconnect. Note 2 says specifically the 'PV Disconnect separates the PV system from all other systems'. But then in the definitions in 690.2 on the next page, the new definition of a PV System DC Circuit says that it includes DC to DC converter output circuits. (which are Solar Edge module level controls, but could be interpreted as a MPPT battery charge Controller?) Then 690.12 which only applies to 'PV System circuits in or on buildings', says we have to control conductors more than 3 ft after penetrating the building. So in my case, I'm looking at a ground mount, and installing an external lockable disconnect on the wall before it goes into the building. This will officially be the PV Disconnect. In my interpretation, I should not need to do any Rapid Shutdown, because I've essentially prevented the PV system from ever entering the building at all ( based on the 5th diagram and Note 2) However, I could see an AHJ claiming I had to do RS all the way to the output side of the charge controller. If this were true, could I simply apply RS equipment from the PV disconnect to the output of the charge controller, or am I back to module level shutdown for my ground mounted array, or could I build a tiny building that just housed the PV Disconnect and take the exemption for 'buildings with the sole purpose of housing PV system equipment'? Essentially the definitions in 690.2 are too broad, and are at odds with the Figure and Notes of 690.1. They really didn't fix this in the 2017 code for us lowly off gridders. Charge controllers are covered by article 706.23 Charge Control, and NOT by 690.12 at all. IMHO, the charge controller needs to be clearly defined and differentiated from DC to DC converters like Solar Edge's module level DC equipment. I just want to go back to doing solar designs and installations, and quit acting like an attorney parsing every word of this confusing code language. -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 23 09:55:28 2018 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (wmdorsett) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 08:55:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase CTs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Nick. I'm content with using the ones from Enphase. Are those for the envoy S the same as the ones for envoy iq? Bill Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Nick Soleil Date: 8/22/18 8:43 PM (GMT-06:00) To: RE-wrenches , william at millersolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase CTs Hi William, Our metered Envoys in North America can only be used with the Enphase 200A consumption CTs (CT-200-SPLIT).  Many of the off-the-shelf CT options have an embedded burden resistor and output millivolts.  Our CTs output milliAmps and we have embedded the burden resistor on the Envoy board.  Unfortunately, you won't find an alternate CT. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267  // office (707) 321-2937  // cell Energy Evolved™ Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 Texas Master Electrician #284451 From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 12:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase CTs   Friends:   I am fixin’ to install an Enphase system with the Envoy-S and the AC combiner box.  I wish to monitor consumption.  It appears to me that Enphase offers only one model of CT which may be a bit large for the space I have.  The panel is only 100 Amps and thus has smaller feeder conductor than a 200 A would.  Does anyone know if one can substitute other manufacturer’s CTs in an Enphase system?   As always, thanks for any input.   William Miller     Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Aug 23 16:36:45 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 16:36:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace Message-ID: >Hello Wrenches, > >What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off >grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, >although the transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. >Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace AC will be >powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. > >Thank you, > >Drake > >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Thu Aug 23 17:11:38 2018 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 21:11:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase CTs In-Reply-To: <20180823144617.B27FC107B4A@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: , <20180823144617.B27FC107B4A@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Yes, both the Envoy-S and IQ Envoy use the same consumption metering CTs (CT-200-SPLIT). Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell [Enphase_esig_logo6.jpg] Energy Evolved™ Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 Texas Master Electrician #284451 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of wmdorsett Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 6:55 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase CTs Thanks Nick. I'm content with using the ones from Enphase. Are those for the envoy S the same as the ones for envoy iq? Bill Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Nick Soleil Date: 8/22/18 8:43 PM (GMT-06:00) To: RE-wrenches , william at millersolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase CTs Hi William, Our metered Envoys in North America can only be used with the Enphase 200A consumption CTs (CT-200-SPLIT). Many of the off-the-shelf CT options have an embedded burden resistor and output millivolts. Our CTs output milliAmps and we have embedded the burden resistor on the Envoy board. Unfortunately, you won't find an alternate CT. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell [Enphase_esig_logo6.jpg] Energy Evolved™ Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 Texas Master Electrician #284451 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 12:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase CTs Friends: I am fixin’ to install an Enphase system with the Envoy-S and the AC combiner box. I wish to monitor consumption. It appears to me that Enphase offers only one model of CT which may be a bit large for the space I have. The panel is only 100 Amps and thus has smaller feeder conductor than a 200 A would. Does anyone know if one can substitute other manufacturer’s CTs in an Enphase system? As always, thanks for any input. William Miller [Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 19:21:57 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 18:21:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <20180823203655.AD1EF108277@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180823203655.AD1EF108277@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I have installed a Bryant that had an ECM motor, it drew i think 200 Watts on the blower. Set the delta-T for 140 output and make the ducts larger. The thermostat must be DC it may have to drive a relay which wakes the furnace and the inverter. The furnace then must run normally with normal shut down. The thermostat transformer will keep the inverter on. On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 3:36 PM Drake wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off grid > house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, although the > transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. Low blower current > would be preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Aug 23 19:31:40 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel at entech-engineering.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 19:31:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again? In-Reply-To: <2c16302c-d422-b8d3-8d4d-c036568a0341@solarray.com> References: <2c16302c-d422-b8d3-8d4d-c036568a0341@solarray.com> Message-ID: I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped professionally and personally. It was ill conceived and ill written. Anyone willing to join me in a petition to CMP 44 and the like, contact me off list. To your question directly, you have a ground mounted system and you are not subject to 690.12 unless your conductors are "in or on building" which i cannot seem to find what that actually means. Exempted are buildings that are isolated only for the PV system This is a big win for installers as almost everyone installs systems like this....... Right. They used to have a dimension to this, but I guess that gave installers too much information. This is a stupid Code addition for roof mounted pv systems, disguised as protecting Firefighters, but not doing so in reality. The NEC looks politically compromised by consultants and manufacturers who too advantage of this fear mongering. No other country with a pv industry has historically done this. Why are installers not up in arms about this? This is the NEC reference. 690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings. PV system circuits installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid shutdown function to reduce shock hazard for emergency responders in accordance with 690.12(A) through (D). If your system is ground mounted, you are outside the "altruistic" intent of 690.12 of protecting Firefighters. Put a initiation device disconnect switch at the array. Any supporters of RS should chime in with the support of 690.12 and add clarity and guidance to those of us who actually install systems and have to deal with this baloney. 690.12 has caused more problems for multimode systems than any tariffs, which are bad enough. I don' think the industry needs any more "safe design and installation" assistance from the CMPs involved with this issue. Chris Warfel On 2018-08-23 00:31, Ray wrote: > Greetings fellow wrenches; > > I know we have beat this many times but I once again have not been able to resolve the contradictory information in 690 in regards to implementing 690.12. As Rebekah Hren pointed out before, the diagrams shown in Figure 690.1(b) show that the _PV System DC Circuit_ stops at the _PV Disconnect_. Note 2 says specifically the '_PV Disconnect separates the PV system from all other systems_'. But then in the definitions in 690.2 on the next page, the new definition of a _P__V System DC Circuit_ says that it includes DC to DC converter output circuits. (which are Solar Edge module level controls, but could be interpreted as a MPPT battery charge Controller?) > > Then 690.12 which only applies to '_PV System circuits in or on buildings_', says we have to control conductors more than 3 ft after penetrating the building. > > So in my case, I'm looking at a ground mount, and installing an external lockable disconnect on the wall before it goes into the building. This will officially be the PV Disconnect. In my interpretation, I should not need to do any Rapid Shutdown, because I've essentially prevented the _PV system_ from ever entering the building at all ( based on the 5th diagram and Note 2) However, I could see an AHJ claiming I had to do RS all the way to the output side of the charge controller. > > If this were true, could I simply apply RS equipment from the PV disconnect to the output of the charge controller, or am I back to module level shutdown for my ground mounted array, or could I build a tiny building that just housed the PV Disconnect and take the exemption for '_buildings with the sole purpose of housing PV system equipment_'? > > Essentially the definitions in 690.2 are too broad, and are at odds with the Figure and Notes of 690.1. They really didn't fix this in the 2017 code for us lowly off gridders. Charge controllers are covered by article 706.23 _Charge Control_, and NOT by 690.12 at all. IMHO, the charge controller needs to be clearly defined and differentiated from DC to DC converters like Solar Edge's module level DC equipment. > > I just want to go back to doing solar designs and installations, and quit acting like an attorney parsing every word of this confusing code language. > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [1] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] Links: ------ [1] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Aug 23 19:43:58 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 17:43:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <20180823203656.6C379108290@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180823203656.6C379108290@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <006701d43b3b$2a4d1130$7ee73390$@solarwork.com> Drake, All the conventional units I have amp clamped over the years are pushing 900-900+ watts per hour. I do not recommend them ever & to date I have never found a lower wattage blower. I would assume that a permanent magnet motor would fit this suggestion, but I have not found one. For off grid I recommend: Radiant floor heat first and hot water base board second long before hot air. Air is a better insulator than a heat transfer agent. The new ECM (electronically commutated motors) pump motors are basically at DC permanent magnet motor power draws [Taco & Grundfoss] these days. Best of luck with this one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 2:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace Hello Wrenches, What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, although the transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 19:53:02 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 13:53:02 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase CTs In-Reply-To: <81afd64c9ac756cbeae665e33a812b8e@mail.gmail.com> References: <81afd64c9ac756cbeae665e33a812b8e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William You might look at Egauge to monitor everything and just let enphase do what it does. Might be less expensive that way too. Jerry On Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 2:17 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am fixin’ to install an Enphase system with the Envoy-S and the AC > combiner box. I wish to monitor consumption. It appears to me that > Enphase offers only one model of CT which may be a bit large for the space > I have. The panel is only 100 Amps and thus has smaller feeder conductor > than a 200 A would. Does anyone know if one can substitute other > manufacturer’s CTs in an Enphase system? > > > > As always, thanks for any input. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Aug 23 20:17:52 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 19:17:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <006701d43b3b$2a4d1130$7ee73390$@solarwork.com> References: <20180823203656.6C379108290@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <006701d43b3b$2a4d1130$7ee73390$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I agree with Dana 100% almost. I have measured many a furnace with up to 1300 watts, 800 or 1000 watts is normal. But this furnace with larger ducts and a high temp rise (140 discharge) and ECM motor was an exceptionally low draw. This is from memory back in about 2010, I have since had a heart attack with a heavy penalty so my memory may be flawed. On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 6:44 PM Dana wrote: > Drake, > > All the conventional units I have amp clamped over the years are pushing > 900-900+ watts per hour. I do not recommend them ever & to date I have > never found a lower wattage blower. I would assume that a permanent magnet > motor would fit this suggestion, but I have not found one. > > For off grid I recommend: Radiant floor heat first and hot water base > board second long before hot air. Air is a better insulator than a heat > transfer agent. > > The new ECM (electronically commutated motors) pump motors are basically > at DC permanent magnet motor power draws [Taco & Grundfoss] these days. > > > > Best of luck with this one. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Drake > *Sent:* Thursday, August 23, 2018 2:37 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off grid > house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, although the > transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. Low blower current > would be preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar > PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Aug 23 21:41:57 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 21:41:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: References: <20180823203656.6C379108290@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <006701d43b3b$2a4d1130$7ee73390$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: The Goodman furnace in our on grid house pulls 400 W. At 08:17 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote: >I agree with Dana 100% almost. I have measured >many a furnace with up to 1300 watts, 800 or >1000 watts is normal. But this furnace with >larger ducts and a high temp rise (140 >discharge) and ECM motor was an exceptionally >low draw. This is from memory back in about >2010, I have since had a heart attack with a >heavy penalty so my memory may be flawed.  > >On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 6:44 PM Dana ><dana at solarwork.com> wrote: > >Drake, > >All the conventional units I have amp clamped >over the years are pushing 900-900+ watts per >hour. I do not recommend them ever & to date I >have never found a lower wattage blower. I would >assume that a permanent magnet motor would fit >this suggestion, but I have not found one. > >For off grid I recommend: Radiant floor heat >first and hot water base board second long >before hot air. Air is a better insulator than a heat transfer agent. > >The new ECM (electronically commutated motors) >pump motors are basically at DC permanent magnet >motor power draws [Taco & Grundfoss] these days. > > > >Best of luck with this one. > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Dana Orzel                   >          Great Solar Works, Inc. > >C - 208.721.7003                >      dana at solarwork.com > >Idaho Contractor - # 028765        Idaho PV # 028374 > >NABCEP # 051112-136               >       www.solarwork.biz > >"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > >P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > >From: RE-wrenches ><re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> >On Behalf Of Drake >Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 2:37 PM >To: RE-wrenches ><re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace > > > >Hello Wrenches, > >What is the best choice for a propane, forced >air furnace for an off grid house? We would >prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, >although the transformer for the thermostat may >not be avoidable. Low blower current would be >preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. > >Thank you, > >Drake > >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Aug 23 21:14:30 2018 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 20:14:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again? In-Reply-To: References: <2c16302c-d422-b8d3-8d4d-c036568a0341@solarray.com> Message-ID: <004301d43b47$cfd72fd0$6f858f70$@solarcentex.com> I agree that the RSD requirements are too onerous and give the MI and MLPE players are leg up on string inverters with their add-on solutions. Ditto for IFC requirements for a 3’ roof ridge setback. Still have not met a fire chief who says that venting is their method but when asked if they’d like to cede the space back by policy, the answer is, “no, why would we?” Broadly speaking, energy efficiency measures mandated for “solar ready” are not enforced but the “safety” measure are. Probably time for an academic study figuring out the cost we have incurred in the pursuit of this, versus the risks avoided. I know, I know…somebody is going to say, “if we’ve saved one roof fire…” But that mentality makes for a lot of costs, sometimes without much logical basis. Scot Arey Solar Centex From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 6:32 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Rebecca Cantwell Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again? I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped professionally and personally. It was ill conceived and ill written. Anyone willing to join me in a petition to CMP 44 and the like, contact me off list. To your question directly, you have a ground mounted system and you are not subject to 690.12 unless your conductors are "in or on building" which i cannot seem to find what that actually means. Exempted are buildings that are isolated only for the PV system This is a big win for installers as almost everyone installs systems like this....... Right. They used to have a dimension to this, but I guess that gave installers too much information. This is a stupid Code addition for roof mounted pv systems, disguised as protecting Firefighters, but not doing so in reality. The NEC looks politically compromised by consultants and manufacturers who too advantage of this fear mongering. No other country with a pv industry has historically done this. Why are installers not up in arms about this? This is the NEC reference. 690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings. PV system circuits installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid shutdown function to reduce shock hazard for emergency responders in accordance with 690.12(A) through (D). If your system is ground mounted, you are outside the "altruistic" intent of 690.12 of protecting Firefighters. Put a initiation device disconnect switch at the array. Any supporters of RS should chime in with the support of 690.12 and add clarity and guidance to those of us who actually install systems and have to deal with this baloney. 690.12 has caused more problems for multimode systems than any tariffs, which are bad enough. I don' think the industry needs any more "safe design and installation" assistance from the CMPs involved with this issue. Chris Warfel On 2018-08-23 00:31, Ray wrote: Greetings fellow wrenches; I know we have beat this many times but I once again have not been able to resolve the contradictory information in 690 in regards to implementing 690.12. As Rebekah Hren pointed out before, the diagrams shown in Figure 690.1(b) show that the PV System DC Circuit stops at the PV Disconnect. Note 2 says specifically the 'PV Disconnect separates the PV system from all other systems'. But then in the definitions in 690.2 on the next page, the new definition of a PV System DC Circuit says that it includes DC to DC converter output circuits. (which are Solar Edge module level controls, but could be interpreted as a MPPT battery charge Controller?) Then 690.12 which only applies to 'PV System circuits in or on buildings', says we have to control conductors more than 3 ft after penetrating the building. So in my case, I'm looking at a ground mount, and installing an external lockable disconnect on the wall before it goes into the building. This will officially be the PV Disconnect. In my interpretation, I should not need to do any Rapid Shutdown, because I've essentially prevented the PV system from ever entering the building at all ( based on the 5th diagram and Note 2) However, I could see an AHJ claiming I had to do RS all the way to the output side of the charge controller. If this were true, could I simply apply RS equipment from the PV disconnect to the output of the charge controller, or am I back to module level shutdown for my ground mounted array, or could I build a tiny building that just housed the PV Disconnect and take the exemption for 'buildings with the sole purpose of housing PV system equipment'? Essentially the definitions in 690.2 are too broad, and are at odds with the Figure and Notes of 690.1. They really didn't fix this in the 2017 code for us lowly off gridders. Charge controllers are covered by article 706.23 Charge Control, and NOT by 690.12 at all. IMHO, the charge controller needs to be clearly defined and differentiated from DC to DC converters like Solar Edge's module level DC equipment. I just want to go back to doing solar designs and installations, and quit acting like an attorney parsing every word of this confusing code language. -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Aug 24 11:48:58 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel at entech-engineering.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 11:48:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: References: <20180823203656.6C379108290@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <006701d43b3b$2a4d1130$7ee73390$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I agree with the difficulty of FHA for grid isolated applications. I have an EGauge system on my house and here is a screen print of a cold, windy period. Very high inrush current for the blower motor. An addition I am finishing is solar assisted radiant floor. Chris On 2018-08-23 20:17, Darryl Thayer wrote: > I agree with Dana 100% almost. I have measured many a furnace with up to 1300 watts, 800 or 1000 watts is normal. But this furnace with larger ducts and a high temp rise (140 discharge) and ECM motor was an exceptionally low draw. This is from memory back in about 2010, I have since had a heart attack with a heavy penalty so my memory may be flawed. > > On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 6:44 PM Dana wrote: > > Drake, > > All the conventional units I have amp clamped over the years are pushing 900-900+ watts per hour. I do not recommend them ever & to date I have never found a lower wattage blower. I would assume that a permanent magnet motor would fit this suggestion, but I have not found one. > > For off grid I recommend: Radiant floor heat first and hot water base board second long before hot air. Air is a better insulator than a heat transfer agent. > > The new ECM (electronically commutated motors) pump motors are basically at DC permanent magnet motor power draws [Taco & Grundfoss] these days. > > Best of luck with this one. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > C - 208.721.7003 DANA at SOLARWORK.COM > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz [1] > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Drake > SENT: Thursday, August 23, 2018 2:37 PM > TO: RE-wrenches > SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace > > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, although the transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] Links: ------ [1] http://www.solarwork.biz [2] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [3] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 30845c20.png Type: image/png Size: 659379 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Fri Aug 24 12:22:21 2018 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 16:22:21 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] CC Temp Comp value Message-ID: Hello, Can someone tell me the default BTS value for the Schneider MPPT60-150 CC? It’s currently set for -54mv/C I was going to use -5MV/C for the lead acid batteries, but wasn’t sure if the -54 equaled -5.4 due to a fractional conversion, so I left it. The controller did seem to go to float stage quickly, BTW. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Aug 24 12:52:46 2018 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 09:52:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] CC Temp Comp value In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy It's calculated as follows... 5mv is equal to .005. .005 X Number of Cells So a 24 Volt system has 12 cells. .005 X 12 = .060 So the Temp compensation is -/+ 60mv. As expressed in the Schneider equipment it's labeled as -60mv... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 9:22 AM Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > > Hello, > Can someone tell me the default BTS value for the Schneider MPPT60-150 > CC? > It’s currently set for -54mv/C > I was going to use -5MV/C for the lead acid batteries, but wasn’t sure if > the -54 equaled -5.4 due to a fractional conversion, so I left it. > The controller did seem to go to float stage quickly, BTW. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Aug 24 13:59:39 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 11:59:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <006701d43b3b$2a4d1130$7ee73390$@solarwork.com> References: <20180823203656.6C379108290@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <006701d43b3b$2a4d1130$7ee73390$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <8e0ed0a4-219d-8ec1-b9ca-952aa7a25157@solarray.com> I always try to talk the client into hydronic heating with ECM drive circulation pumps.  They do make ECM drive blower motors that can be retrofitted in some furnace systems.  Overall, its just a bad combination off grid: the worse the weather is the less PV production you have, and this corresponds to the same time that the furnace is operating 12 hours/ night.  They are either running the generator a bunch, or waking up in the morning to a cold house with the power off, and dead batteries.  If its an AC coupled system, they won't even have any PV production the next morning either.  This is another reason AC coupled is not a great idea, or at least you need to always have some DC coupled PV as well, but I digress...... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/23/18 5:43 PM, Dana wrote: > > Drake, > > All the conventional units I have amp clamped over the years are > pushing 900-900+ watts per hour. I do not recommend them ever & to > date I have never found a lower wattage blower. I would assume that a > permanent magnet motor would fit this suggestion, but I have not found > one. > > For off grid I recommend: Radiant floor heat first and hot water base > board second long before hot air. Air is a better insulator than a > heat transfer agent. > > The new ECM (electronically commutated motors) pump motors are > basically at DC permanent magnet motor power draws [Taco & Grundfoss] > these days. > > Best of luck with this one. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.com* > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Drake > *Sent:* Thursday, August 23, 2018 2:37 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace > > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an > off grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom > load, although the transformer for the thermostat may not be > avoidable. Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace AC > will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Aug 24 16:51:52 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 16:51:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <8e0ed0a4-219d-8ec1-b9ca-952aa7a25157@solarray.com> References: <20180823203656.6C379108290@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <006701d43b3b$2a4d1130$7ee73390$@solarwork.com> <8e0ed0a4-219d-8ec1-b9ca-952aa7a25157@solarray.com> Message-ID: A wood stove heats the house, and will be the primary source of heat. An un-vented propane wall heater is installed and can heat the small, earth bermed, well insulated structure. A furnace will be a nice supplement, and will quickly pay for itself in insurance savings. During even a moderately cloudy day, it will be fine, but will not be used much on batteries. Still, I'd like as efficient a model as possible. If I can find a unit with a 400 W draw, like the one in our on grid house, that would be adequate. The specifications I've found on the blower motors are sketchy. I will likely need to order it on line (or take a trip to a neighboring city), so reading the nameplates might not be so easy. Does anyone know how to get accurate data on furnace blower motors? Thanks, Drake At 01:59 PM 8/24/2018, you wrote: >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="------------914ACDD867C6488AACA07365" >Content-Language: en-US > >I always try to talk the client into hydronic heating with ECM drive >circulation pumps. They do make ECM drive blower motors that can be >retrofitted in some furnace systems. Overall, its just a bad >combination off grid: the worse the weather is the less PV >production you have, and this corresponds to the same time that the >furnace is operating 12 hours/ night. They are either running the >generator a bunch, or waking up in the morning to a cold house with >the power off, and dead batteries. If its an AC coupled system, >they won't even have any PV production the next morning >either. This is another reason AC coupled is not a great idea, or >at least you need to always have some DC coupled PV as well, but I >digress...... > >Ray Walters >Remote Solar >303 505-8760On 8/23/18 5:43 PM, Dana wrote: >>Drake, >>All the conventional units I have amp clamped over the years are >>pushing 900-900+ watts per hour. I do not recommend them ever & to >>date I have never found a lower wattage blower. I would assume that >>a permanent magnet motor would fit this suggestion, but I have not found one. >>For off grid I recommend: Radiant floor heat first and hot water >>base board second long before hot air. Air is a better insulator >>than a heat transfer agent. >>The new ECM (electronically commutated motors) pump motors are >>basically at DC permanent magnet motor power draws [Taco & >>Grundfoss] these days. >> >>Best of luck with this one. >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>C - >>208.721.7003 >>dana at solarwork.com >>Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>NABCEP # >>051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >>"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >>From: RE-wrenches >> >>On Behalf Of Drake >>Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 2:37 PM >>To: RE-wrenches >> >>Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace >> >>Hello Wrenches, >> >>What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an >>off grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom >>load, although the transformer for the thermostat may not be >>avoidable. Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace AC >>will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. >> >>Thank you, >> >>Drake >> >>Drake Chamberlin >>Athens Electric LLC >>OH License 44810 >>CO License 3773 >>NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>740-448-7328 >>http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Fri Aug 24 17:56:04 2018 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 17:56:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <20180824205156.41AB710826A@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180823203656.6C379108290@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <006701d43b3b$2a4d1130$7ee73390$@solarwork.com> <8e0ed0a4-219d-8ec1-b9ca-952aa7a25157@solarray.com> <20180824205156.41AB710826A@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <008601d43bf5$41578cb0$c406a610$@dovetailsolar.com> Drake, The best thing to minimize blower power draw will be two fold. 1. Get the smallest BTU furnace you are allowed to (with and ECM blower). Since blowers are generally sized at a nominal CFM/BTU of heat output. (Around 30CFM/ 1000BTU for the usual heat pump or 90+eff furnaces) 2. Minimize head loss in the duct system. Head loss has an exponential effect on energy use as a whole (blower motor and fuel efficiency) a. Bigger distribution ducts b. metal duct for corners and turns (i.e use good fittings) c. little to no flex duct unless for straight runs i. flex duct always well supported and pulled tight, little to no slack allowed in a flex duct job. d. Etc. Good read in this article, and the attached presentation download: https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/secret-moving-air-quietly-through-your-d uct-system Not knowing the home layout and specs it hard to give specific advise on that side, but those two items are big drivers on actual power needs for blowers. But as you said, the furnace is there for insurance costs, not primary heating. Also, the unvented propane heater in a primary dwelling seems like a bad idea to me. Is the home expected to be well sealed for air leaks? Blower door tested, relatively well sealed would be a blower door number of less than 2-3 ACH50 (air changes per hour @ a 50pascal pressure difference to the outdoors), 1-1.5 is really good, and passive house is 0.6 and lower? Because both the fireplace and the unvented heater could be bad news if that's the case. Something you might want to see if you client is conscious of. (Not sure how far you are getting involved in the home design Drake.) With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, August 24, 2018 4:52 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace A wood stove heats the house, and will be the primary source of heat. An un-vented propane wall heater is installed and can heat the small, earth bermed, well insulated structure. A furnace will be a nice supplement, and will quickly pay for itself in insurance savings. During even a moderately cloudy day, it will be fine, but will not be used much on batteries. Still, I'd like as efficient a model as possible. If I can find a unit with a 400 W draw, like the one in our on grid house, that would be adequate. The specifications I've found on the blower motors are sketchy. I will likely need to order it on line (or take a trip to a neighboring city), so reading the nameplates might not be so easy. Does anyone know how to get accurate data on furnace blower motors? Thanks, Drake At 01:59 PM 8/24/2018, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------914ACDD867C6488AACA07365" Content-Language: en-US I always try to talk the client into hydronic heating with ECM drive circulation pumps. They do make ECM drive blower motors that can be retrofitted in some furnace systems. Overall, its just a bad combination off grid: the worse the weather is the less PV production you have, and this corresponds to the same time that the furnace is operating 12 hours/ night. They are either running the generator a bunch, or waking up in the morning to a cold house with the power off, and dead batteries. If its an AC coupled system, they won't even have any PV production the next morning either. This is another reason AC coupled is not a great idea, or at least you need to always have some DC coupled PV as well, but I digress...... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/23/18 5:43 PM, Dana wrote: Drake, All the conventional units I have amp clamped over the years are pushing 900-900+ watts per hour. I do not recommend them ever & to date I have never found a lower wattage blower. I would assume that a permanent magnet motor would fit this suggestion, but I have not found one. For off grid I recommend: Radiant floor heat first and hot water base board second long before hot air. Air is a better insulator than a heat transfer agent. The new ECM (electronically commutated motors) pump motors are basically at DC permanent magnet motor power draws [Taco & Grundfoss] these days. Best of luck with this one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 2:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace Hello Wrenches, What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, although the transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Fri Aug 24 18:30:20 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 12:30:20 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trina or Yingli 240 Message-ID: <002201d43bfa$0b89ccb0$229d6610$@com> Aloha all from soggy Hilo. I'm looking for a couple 2013-2014 vintage 240-watt Trina or Yingli poly mods. Please let me know off-list if you know of any to be had. Thanks, marco provision_highres_solar_logo2 with C-26351 Marco Mangelsdorf, President 69 Railroad Avenue, A-7 Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 (808) 969-3281, 934-7462 facsimile www.provision-solar.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5935 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 24 21:16:37 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 18:16:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <008601d43bf5$41578cb0$c406a610$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <20180823203656.6C379108290@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <006701d43b3b$2a4d1130$7ee73390$@solarwork.com> <8e0ed0a4-219d-8ec1-b9ca-952aa7a25157@solarray.com> <20180824205156.41AB710826A@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <008601d43bf5$41578cb0$c406a610$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: I’ll add another choice to the thread which is kerosene The direct vent remote tank kerosene heaters are the most efficient, least costly way to go. Rinnai is one of a few Japanese heaters. Many people I’ve worked with have gone this way vs propane. Either direct vent or central heaters systems. And all have commented that the cost was significantly less with kerosene than with propane. That said where I live we can get kerosene delivered like diesel, in bulk. I don’t know if everywhere is like that. But either way, with best insulation design practices it greatly changes the metrics of heating design. With that reduction in heating load, central whole house heating is often way more expensive than with zone type heating. It’s back to reduce the load before you have to power it. If I was designing an off grid heating system it would be with kerosene vs propane. My 2 cents Jay Peltz Power. > On Aug 24, 2018, at 2:56 PM, Daniel Young wrote: > > Drake, > > The best thing to minimize blower power draw will be two fold. > Get the smallest BTU furnace you are allowed to (with and ECM blower). Since blowers are generally sized at a nominal CFM/BTU of heat output. (Around 30CFM/ 1000BTU for the usual heat pump or 90+eff furnaces) > Minimize head loss in the duct system. Head loss has an exponential effect on energy use as a whole (blower motor and fuel efficiency) > Bigger distribution ducts > metal duct for corners and turns (i.e use good fittings) > little to no flex duct unless for straight runs > i. flex duct always well supported and pulled tight, little to no slack allowed in a flex duct job. > Etc… Good read in this article, and the attached presentation download: https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/secret-moving-air-quietly-through-your-duct-system > > Not knowing the home layout and specs it hard to give specific advise on that side, but those two items are big drivers on actual power needs for blowers. But as you said, the furnace is there for insurance costs, not primary heating… > > Also, the unvented propane heater in a primary dwelling seems like a bad idea to me. Is the home expected to be well sealed for air leaks? Blower door tested, relatively well sealed would be a blower door number of less than 2-3 ACH50 (air changes per hour @ a 50pascal pressure difference to the outdoors), 1-1.5 is really good, and passive house is 0.6 and lower? Because both the fireplace and the unvented heater could be bad news if that’s the case… Something you might want to see if you client is conscious of. (Not sure how far you are getting involved in the home design Drake.) > > With Regards, > > Daniel Young, > NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2018 4:52 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace > > A wood stove heats the house, and will be the primary source of heat. An un-vented propane wall heater is installed and can heat the small, earth bermed, well insulated structure. A furnace will be a nice supplement, and will quickly pay for itself in insurance savings. During even a moderately cloudy day, it will be fine, but will not be used much on batteries. Still, I'd like as efficient a model as possible. > > If I can find a unit with a 400 W draw, like the one in our on grid house, that would be adequate. The specifications I've found on the blower motors are sketchy. I will likely need to order it on line (or take a trip to a neighboring city), so reading the nameplates might not be so easy. > > Does anyone know how to get accurate data on furnace blower motors? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > At 01:59 PM 8/24/2018, you wrote: > > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="------------914ACDD867C6488AACA07365" > Content-Language: en-US > > I always try to talk the client into hydronic heating with ECM drive circulation pumps. They do make ECM drive blower motors that can be retrofitted in some furnace systems. Overall, its just a bad combination off grid: the worse the weather is the less PV production you have, and this corresponds to the same time that the furnace is operating 12 hours/ night. They are either running the generator a bunch, or waking up in the morning to a cold house with the power off, and dead batteries. If its an AC coupled system, they won't even have any PV production the next morning either. This is another reason AC coupled is not a great idea, or at least you need to always have some DC coupled PV as well, but I digress...... > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 8/23/18 5:43 PM, Dana wrote: > > Drake, > All the conventional units I have amp clamped over the years are pushing 900-900+ watts per hour. I do not recommend them ever & to date I have never found a lower wattage blower. I would assume that a permanent magnet motor would fit this suggestion, but I have not found one. > For off grid I recommend: Radiant floor heat first and hot water base board second long before hot air. Air is a better insulator than a heat transfer agent. > The new ECM (electronically commutated motors) pump motors are basically at DC permanent magnet motor power draws [Taco & Grundfoss] these days. > > Best of luck with this one. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 2:37 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace > > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, although the transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Aug 25 00:10:23 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 22:10:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <20180824205157.5F6011082C0@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180823203656.6C379108290@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <006701d43b3b$2a4d1130$7ee73390$@solarwork.com> <8e0ed0a4-219d-8ec1-b9ca-952aa7a25157@solarray.com> <20180824205157.5F6011082C0@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <3c1dc33f-534b-e55e-3733-ba960af75b42@sindelarsolar.com> Over the years I have supplied systems to new owners of modular or mobile homes, each of which comes with a forced air furnace unless special ordered without one. I would caution the homeowner against using the furnace as a primary heat source for the reasons already given. However, keeping the installed furnace operational only as a fast-responding means of bringing the temperature up until the woodstove kicks in was a popular approach, as long as it's not a substantial phantom load. I had one client who left the breaker off, but who could fire it up occasionally when needed. All of this is from years back when modules were $$$/watt, systems were smaller and efficiency was king. The principles still apply. Allan On 8/24/2018 2:51 PM, Drake wrote: > A wood stove heats the house, and will be the primary source of heat. > An un-vented propane wall heater is installed and can heat the small, > earth bermed, well insulated structure. A furnace will be a nice > supplement, and will quickly pay for itself in insurance savings. > During even a moderately cloudy day, it will be fine, but will not be > used much on batteries. Still, I'd like as efficient a model as possible. > > If I can find a unit with a 400 W draw, like the one in our on grid > house, that would be adequate. The specifications I've found on the > blower motors are sketchy. I will likely need to order it on line (or > take a trip to a neighboring city), so reading the nameplates might > not be so easy. > > Does anyone know how to get accurate data on furnace blower motors? > Thanks, > Drake >> >> I always try to talk the client into hydronic heating with ECM drive >> circulation pumps.  They do make ECM drive blower motors that can be >> retrofitted in some furnace systems.  Overall, its just a bad >> combination off grid: the worse the weather is the less PV production >> you have, and this corresponds to the same time that the furnace is >> operating 12 hours/ night.  They are either running the generator a >> bunch, or waking up in the morning to a cold house with the power >> off, and dead batteries.  If its an AC coupled system, they won't >> even have any PV production the next morning either.  This is another >> reason AC coupled is not a great idea, or at least you need to always >> have some DC coupled PV as well, but I digress...... >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 8/23/18 5:43 PM, Dana wrote: >>> Drake, >>> All the conventional units I have amp clamped over the years are >>> pushing 900-900+ watts per hour. I do not recommend them ever & to >>> date I have never found a lower wattage blower. I would assume that >>> a permanent magnet motor would fit this suggestion, but I have not >>> found one. >>> For off grid I recommend: Radiant floor heat first and hot water >>> base board second long before hot air. Air is a better insulator >>> than a heat transfer agent. >>> The new ECM (electronically commutated motors) pump motors are >>> basically at DC permanent magnet motor power draws [Taco & >>> Grundfoss] these days. >>> >>> Best of luck with this one. >>> Dana >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches >>> *On Behalf Of *Drake >>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 23, 2018 2:37 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an >>> off grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom >>> load, although the transformer for the thermostat may not be >>> avoidable. Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace >>> AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. >>> Thank you, >>> Drake >>> -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Aug 25 10:29:03 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 10:29:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <008601d43bf5$41578cb0$c406a610$@dovetailsolar.com> References: <20180823203656.6C379108290@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <006701d43b3b$2a4d1130$7ee73390$@solarwork.com> <8e0ed0a4-219d-8ec1-b9ca-952aa7a25157@solarray.com> <20180824205156.41AB710826A@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <008601d43bf5$41578cb0$c406a610$@dovetailsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Daniel, That is good information. Thanks for the link. My take on non vented heaters is that they are a bad idea for general use. They do have the virtue of allowing off gridders to take winter vacations without worrying about frozen pipes or dead batteries. Inverters can be switched off and charge controllers left on, so batteries will stay charged. They are also a good emergency source of heat. Windows can be cracked for ventilation if necessary. Best, Drake At 05:56 PM 8/24/2018, you wrote: >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0087_01D43BD3.BA477350" >Content-Language: en-us > >Drake, > >The best thing to minimize blower power draw will be two fold. > * Get the smallest BTU furnace you are > allowed to (with and ECM blower). Since blowers > are generally sized at a nominal CFM/BTU of > heat output. (Around 30CFM/ 1000BTU for the > usual heat pump or 90+eff furnaces) > * Minimize head loss in the duct system. > Head loss has an exponential effect on energy > use as a whole (blower motor and fuel efficiency) > * Bigger distribution ducts > * metal duct for corners and turns (i.e use good fittings) > * little to no flex duct unless for straight runs > >i. flex duct always well supported and >pulled tight, little to no slack allowed in a flex duct job. > * Etc Good read in this article, and the > attached presentation download: > https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/secret-moving-air-quietly-through-your-duct-system > > >Not knowing the home layout and specs it hard to >give specific advise on that side, but those two >items are big drivers on actual power needs for >blowers. But as you said, the furnace is there >for insurance costs, not primary heating > >Also, the unvented propane heater in a primary >dwelling seems like a bad idea to me. Is the >home expected to be well sealed for air leaks? >Blower door tested, relatively well sealed would >be a blower door number of less than 2-3 ACH50 >(air changes per hour @ a 50pascal pressure >difference to the outdoors), 1-1.5 is really >good, and passive house is 0.6 and lower? >Because both the fireplace and the unvented >heater could be bad news if that’s the case >Something you might want to see if you client is >conscious of. (Not sure how far you are getting >involved in the home design Drake.) > >With Regards, > >Daniel Young, >NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 > > >From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Drake >Sent: Friday, August 24, 2018 4:52 PM >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace > >A wood stove heats the house, and will be the >primary source of heat. An un-vented propane >wall heater is installed and can heat the small, >earth bermed, well insulated structure. A >furnace will be a nice supplement, and will >quickly pay for itself in insurance savings. >During even a moderately cloudy day, it will be >fine, but will not be used much on batteries. >Still, I'd like as efficient a model as possible. > >If I can find a unit with a 400 W draw, like the >one in our on grid house, that would be >adequate. The specifications I've found on the >blower motors are sketchy. I will likely need to >order it on line (or take a trip to a >neighboring city), so reading the nameplates might not be so easy. > >Does anyone know how to get accurate data on furnace blower motors? > >Thanks, > >Drake > >At 01:59 PM 8/24/2018, you wrote: > >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="------------914ACDD867C6488AACA07365" >Content-Language: en-US > >I always try to talk the client into hydronic >heating with ECM drive circulation pumps. They >do make ECM drive blower motors that can be >retrofitted in some furnace systems. Overall, >its just a bad combination off grid: the worse >the weather is the less PV production you have, >and this corresponds to the same time that the >furnace is operating 12 hours/ night. They are >either running the generator a bunch, or waking >up in the morning to a cold house with the power >off, and dead batteries. If its an AC coupled >system, they won't even have any PV production >the next morning either. This is another reason >AC coupled is not a great idea, or at least you >need to always have some DC coupled PV as well, but I digress...... > >Ray Walters >Remote Solar >303 505-8760 >On 8/23/18 5:43 PM, Dana wrote: > >Drake, >All the conventional units I have amp clamped >over the years are pushing 900-900+ watts per >hour. I do not recommend them ever & to date I >have never found a lower wattage blower. I would >assume that a permanent magnet motor would fit >this suggestion, but I have not found one. >For off grid I recommend: Radiant floor heat >first and hot water base board second long >before hot air. Air is a better insulator than a heat transfer agent. >The new ECM (electronically commutated motors) >pump motors are basically at DC permanent magnet >motor power draws [Taco & Grundfoss] these days. > >Best of luck with this one. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >C - >208.721.7003 >dana at solarwork.com >Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >NABCEP # >051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > >From: RE-wrenches > >On Behalf Of Drake >Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 2:37 PM >To: RE-wrenches > >Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace > >Hello Wrenches, >What is the best choice for a propane, forced >air furnace for an off grid house? We would >prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, >although the transformer for the thermostat may >not be avoidable. Low blower current would be >preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. >Thank you, >Drake >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: > > >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: > > >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: > > >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: > > >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: > > >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Aug 27 14:13:13 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 12:13:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again? In-Reply-To: References: <2c16302c-d422-b8d3-8d4d-c036568a0341@solarray.com> Message-ID: HI Chris; As with all things bureaucratic,  good intentions can go awry when actually implemented.  Years ago, I was one of the wrenches pushing for some form of disconnect closer to the power source, or the PV array.  I had no idea it would come back to bite us small off grid folks so hard, though.  I'm not quite for scrapping all of 690.12, but I do think it needs some serious work. /In or on the building/ needs to be defined more clearly as 'on the roof'.  Ground mounts need a clearer exemption. The PV disconnect needs to be clearly defined and also clearly stated that the Rapid disconnect system stops there.  The time limit needs to be bumped up to 90 seconds: no one is going to throw the switch and be hacking on the roof that fast.  The array voltage should be 150 vdc, so that lower voltage off grid systems could be exempt, and I really think 690.12 should only apply to larger arrays (over 10kW) that have long exposed runs of conduit (over 10 yards) or that cover more than a certain percentage of the total roof area.  If an array covers one face of the garage it should be exempt, and if it covers half the total roof, then it should have Rapid disconnect, for instance.  We need to be sensible, do the fire fighters have a good spot to cut and vent the roof without electrical hazards or not? Its interesting how article 690 has morphed from being almost entirely oriented towards off grid in 99 and 02, to now off grid is barely even considered.  Just look at the lack of thought when they wrote the definitions for /DC to DC Converters/.  The solar industry has been ready and willing to be thrown under the bus at every turn.  I think its about time we started advocating for our own self interests like all the other parties involved. This also means that us off grid folks need to be properly represented, and off grid considered with all code changes.  I think DC coupled PV should have its own section and be separated from AC coupled PV.  The systems are so different that it doesn't make sense to throw them into the same section.  The emergence of article 706 is a step in the right direction. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/23/18 5:31 PM, cwarfel at entech-engineering.com wrote: > > I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped professionally and > personally.  It was ill conceived and ill written.  Anyone willing to > join me in a petition to CMP 44 and the like, contact me off list. > > To your question directly, you have a ground mounted system and you > are not subject to 690.12 unless your conductors are "in or on > building" which i cannot seem to find what that actually means. > Exempted are buildings that are isolated only for the PV system This > is a big win for installers as almost everyone installs systems like > this.......   Right.    They used to have a dimension to this, but I > guess that gave installers too much information. This is a stupid Code > addition for roof mounted pv systems, disguised as protecting > Firefighters, but not doing so in reality. The NEC looks politically > compromised by consultants and manufacturers who too advantage of this > fear mongering. No other country with a pv industry has historically > done this. Why are installers not up in arms about this? > > This is the NEC reference. > > 690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings. PV system circuits > installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid shutdown function > to reduce shock hazard for emergency responders in accordance with > 690.12(A) through (D). > > If your system is ground mounted, you are outside the "altruistic" > intent of 690.12 of protecting Firefighters. Put a initiation device > disconnect switch at the array.  Any supporters of RS should chime in > with the support of 690.12 and add clarity and guidance to those of us > who actually install systems and have to deal with this baloney.  > 690.12 has caused more problems for multimode systems than any > tariffs, which are bad enough. I don' think the industry needs any > more "safe design and installation" assistance from the CMPs involved > with this issue. > > Chris Warfel > > > > > > > On 2018-08-23 00:31, Ray wrote: > >> Greetings fellow wrenches; >> >> I know we have beat this many times but I once again have not been >> able to resolve the contradictory information in 690 in regards to >> implementing 690.12.  As Rebekah Hren pointed out before, the >> diagrams shown in Figure 690.1(b) show that the /PV System DC >> Circuit/ stops at the /PV Disconnect/. Note 2 says specifically the >> '/PV Disconnect separates the PV system from all other systems/'.  >> But then in the definitions in 690.2 on the next page, the new >> definition of a /P//V System DC Circuit/ says that it includes DC to >> DC converter output circuits.  (which are Solar Edge module level >> controls, but could be interpreted as a MPPT battery charge Controller?) >> >> Then 690.12 which only applies to '/PV System circuits in or on >> buildings/', says we have to control conductors more than 3 ft after >> penetrating the building. >> >> So in my case, I'm looking at a ground mount, and installing an >> external lockable disconnect on the wall before it goes into the >> building.  This will officially be the PV Disconnect.  In my >> interpretation, I should not need to do any Rapid Shutdown, because >> I've essentially prevented the /PV system/ from ever entering the >> building at all ( based on the 5th diagram and Note 2)  However, I >> could see an AHJ claiming I had to do RS all the way to the output >> side of the charge controller. >> >> If this were true, could I simply apply RS equipment from the PV >> disconnect to the output of the charge controller, or am I back to >> module level shutdown for my ground mounted array, or could I build a >> tiny building that just housed the PV Disconnect and take the >> exemption for '/buildings with the sole purpose of housing PV system >> equipment/'? >> >> Essentially the definitions in 690.2 are too broad, and are at odds >> with the Figure and Notes of 690.1.  They really didn't fix this in >> the 2017 code for us lowly off gridders. Charge controllers are >> covered by article 706.23___/Charge Control/_, and NOT by 690.12 at >> all. IMHO, the charge controller needs to be clearly defined and >> differentiated from DC to DC converters like Solar Edge's module >> level DC equipment. >> >> I just want to go back to doing solar designs and installations, and >> quit acting like an attorney parsing every word of this confusing >> code language. >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Aug 28 08:50:21 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 08:50:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again? In-Reply-To: References: <2c16302c-d422-b8d3-8d4d-c036568a0341@solarray.com> Message-ID: <84ac64db-611d-eae7-6cbd-cae5f7d2825c@entech-engineering.com> I like your solutions to this. Just sticking to rapid shutdown and not the fire code, I think a lot of the problems with 690.12 could be reduced if the maximum string voltage was 150 or even 250.  It reduces the ampacity on a roof for a given power and I feel that is more of a danger than array voltage that the Firefighters are highly likely to avoid. I still cannot get Outback Power to provide a corrected installation manual or a start up procedure on the RSI/ICS equipment. Two plus months and all I get are repeated vague or incorrect information. One expert at OB said that they really didn't deal much with Rapid Shutdown............ I cannot install any more Outback on roofs at this time. I'll see if it is ok to provide a link to an online petition to change 690.12. Chris On 8/27/2018 2:13 PM, Ray wrote: > > HI Chris; > > As with all things bureaucratic,  good intentions can go awry when > actually implemented.  Years ago, I was one of the wrenches pushing > for some form of disconnect closer to the power source, or the PV > array.  I had no idea it would come back to bite us small off grid > folks so hard, though.  I'm not quite for scrapping all of 690.12, but > I do think it needs some serious work. /In or on the building/ needs > to be defined more clearly as 'on the roof'.  Ground mounts need a > clearer exemption. The PV disconnect needs to be clearly defined and > also clearly stated that the Rapid disconnect system stops there.  The > time limit needs to be bumped up to 90 seconds: no one is going to > throw the switch and be hacking on the roof that fast.  The array > voltage should be 150 vdc, so that lower voltage off grid systems > could be exempt, and I really think 690.12 should only apply to larger > arrays (over 10kW) that have long exposed runs of conduit (over 10 > yards) or that cover more than a certain percentage of the total roof > area.  If an array covers one face of the garage it should be exempt, > and if it covers half the total roof, then it should have Rapid > disconnect, for instance.  We need to be sensible, do the fire > fighters have a good spot to cut and vent the roof without electrical > hazards or not? > > Its interesting how article 690 has morphed from being almost entirely > oriented towards off grid in 99 and 02, to now off grid is barely even > considered.  Just look at the lack of thought when they wrote the > definitions for /DC to DC Converters/. The solar industry has been > ready and willing to be thrown under the bus at every turn.  I think > its about time we started advocating for our own self interests like > all the other parties involved.  This also means that us off grid > folks need to be properly represented, and off grid considered with > all code changes.  I think DC coupled PV should have its own section > and be separated from AC coupled PV.  The systems are so different > that it doesn't make sense to throw them into the same section. The > emergence of article 706 is a step in the right direction. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 8/23/18 5:31 PM, cwarfel at entech-engineering.com wrote: >> >> I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped professionally and >> personally.  It was ill conceived and ill written.  Anyone willing to >> join me in a petition to CMP 44 and the like, contact me off list. >> >> To your question directly, you have a ground mounted system and you >> are not subject to 690.12 unless your conductors are "in or on >> building" which i cannot seem to find what that actually means. >> Exempted are buildings that are isolated only for the PV system This >> is a big win for installers as almost everyone installs systems like >> this.......   Right.    They used to have a dimension to this, but I >> guess that gave installers too much information. This is a stupid >> Code addition for roof mounted pv systems, disguised as protecting >> Firefighters, but not doing so in reality. The NEC looks politically >> compromised by consultants and manufacturers who too advantage of >> this fear mongering. No other country with a pv industry has >> historically done this. Why are installers not up in arms about this? >> >> This is the NEC reference. >> >> 690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings. PV system circuits >> installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid shutdown function >> to reduce shock hazard for emergency responders in accordance with >> 690.12(A) through (D). >> >> If your system is ground mounted, you are outside the "altruistic" >> intent of 690.12 of protecting Firefighters. Put a initiation device >> disconnect switch at the array.  Any supporters of RS should chime in >> with the support of 690.12 and add clarity and guidance to those of >> us who actually install systems and have to deal with this baloney.  >> 690.12 has caused more problems for multimode systems than any >> tariffs, which are bad enough. I don' think the industry needs any >> more "safe design and installation" assistance from the CMPs involved >> with this issue. >> >> Chris Warfel >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 2018-08-23 00:31, Ray wrote: >> >>> Greetings fellow wrenches; >>> >>> I know we have beat this many times but I once again have not been >>> able to resolve the contradictory information in 690 in regards to >>> implementing 690.12.  As Rebekah Hren pointed out before, the >>> diagrams shown in Figure 690.1(b) show that the /PV System DC >>> Circuit/ stops at the /PV Disconnect/.  Note 2 says specifically the >>> '/PV Disconnect separates the PV system from all other systems/'. >>> But then in the definitions in 690.2 on the next page, the new >>> definition of a /P//V System DC Circuit/ says that it includes DC to >>> DC converter output circuits. (which are Solar Edge module level >>> controls, but could be interpreted as a MPPT battery charge >>> Controller?) >>> >>> Then 690.12 which only applies to '/PV System circuits in or on >>> buildings/', says we have to control conductors more than 3 ft after >>> penetrating the building. >>> >>> So in my case, I'm looking at a ground mount, and installing an >>> external lockable disconnect on the wall before it goes into the >>> building.  This will officially be the PV Disconnect.  In my >>> interpretation, I should not need to do any Rapid Shutdown, because >>> I've essentially prevented the /PV system/ from ever entering the >>> building at all ( based on the 5th diagram and Note 2)  However, I >>> could see an AHJ claiming I had to do RS all the way to the output >>> side of the charge controller. >>> >>> If this were true, could I simply apply RS equipment from the PV >>> disconnect to the output of the charge controller, or am I back to >>> module level shutdown for my ground mounted array, or could I build >>> a tiny building that just housed the PV Disconnect and take the >>> exemption for '/buildings with the sole purpose of housing PV system >>> equipment/'? >>> >>> Essentially the definitions in 690.2 are too broad, and are at odds >>> with the Figure and Notes of 690.1.  They really didn't fix this in >>> the 2017 code for us lowly off gridders. Charge controllers are >>> covered by article 706.23___/Charge Control/_, and NOT by 690.12 at >>> all. IMHO, the charge controller needs to be clearly defined and >>> differentiated from DC to DC converters like Solar Edge's module >>> level DC equipment. >>> >>> I just want to go back to doing solar designs and installations, and >>> quit acting like an attorney parsing every word of this confusing >>> code language. >>> >>> -- >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Tue Aug 28 09:59:04 2018 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 07:59:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again? In-Reply-To: <84ac64db-611d-eae7-6cbd-cae5f7d2825c@entech-engineering.com> References: <2c16302c-d422-b8d3-8d4d-c036568a0341@solarray.com> <84ac64db-611d-eae7-6cbd-cae5f7d2825c@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hi all, What you need to do now - to get your voices heard about rapid shutdown requirements- is to make public comments on the first draft of the 2020 NEC. *Comments are due AUGUST 30 at midnight!!! * Here is the link to a press release with links to read the draft and input your comments: https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review The process for changing the NEC is standardized by the NFPA and while it may not be perfect, it's what we've got! Best, Rebekah Hren On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 6:50 AM cwarfel wrote: > I like your solutions to this. Just sticking to rapid shutdown and not > the fire code, I think a lot of the problems with 690.12 could be reduced > if the maximum string voltage was 150 or even 250. It reduces the ampacity > on a roof for a given power and I feel that is more of a danger than array > voltage that the Firefighters are highly likely to avoid. > > I still cannot get Outback Power to provide a corrected installation manual > or a start up procedure on the RSI/ICS equipment. Two plus months and all > I get are repeated vague or incorrect information. One expert at OB said > that they really didn't deal much with Rapid Shutdown............ > > I cannot install any more Outback on roofs at this time. > > I'll see if it is ok to provide a link to an online petition to change > 690.12. > > > Chris > > > > On 8/27/2018 2:13 PM, Ray wrote: > > HI Chris; > > As with all things bureaucratic, good intentions can go awry when > actually implemented. Years ago, I was one of the wrenches pushing for > some form of disconnect closer to the power source, or the PV array. I had > no idea it would come back to bite us small off grid folks so hard, > though. I'm not quite for scrapping all of 690.12, but I do think it needs > some serious work. *In or on the building* needs to be defined more > clearly as 'on the roof'. Ground mounts need a clearer exemption. The PV > disconnect needs to be clearly defined and also clearly stated that the > Rapid disconnect system stops there. The time limit needs to be bumped up > to 90 seconds: no one is going to throw the switch and be hacking on the > roof that fast. The array voltage should be 150 vdc, so that lower voltage > off grid systems could be exempt, and I really think 690.12 should only > apply to larger arrays (over 10kW) that have long exposed runs of conduit > (over 10 yards) or that cover more than a certain percentage of the total > roof area. If an array covers one face of the garage it should be exempt, > and if it covers half the total roof, then it should have Rapid disconnect, > for instance. We need to be sensible, do the fire fighters have a good > spot to cut and vent the roof without electrical hazards or not? > > Its interesting how article 690 has morphed from being almost entirely > oriented towards off grid in 99 and 02, to now off grid is barely even > considered. Just look at the lack of thought when they wrote the > definitions for *DC to DC Converters*. The solar industry has been ready > and willing to be thrown under the bus at every turn. I think its about > time we started advocating for our own self interests like all the other > parties involved. This also means that us off grid folks need to be > properly represented, and off grid considered with all code changes. I > think DC coupled PV should have its own section and be separated from AC > coupled PV. The systems are so different that it doesn't make sense to > throw them into the same section. The emergence of article 706 is a step > in the right direction. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 8/23/18 5:31 PM, cwarfel at entech-engineering.com wrote: > > I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped professionally and personally. > It was ill conceived and ill written. Anyone willing to join me in a > petition to CMP 44 and the like, contact me off list. > > To your question directly, you have a ground mounted system and you are > not subject to 690.12 unless your conductors are "in or on building" which > i cannot seem to find what that actually means. Exempted are buildings that > are isolated only for the PV system This is a big win for installers as > almost everyone installs systems like this....... Right. They used to > have a dimension to this, but I guess that gave installers too much > information. This is a stupid Code addition for roof mounted pv systems, > disguised as protecting Firefighters, but not doing so in reality. The NEC > looks politically compromised by consultants and manufacturers who too > advantage of this fear mongering. No other country with a pv industry has > historically done this. Why are installers not up in arms about this? > > This is the NEC reference. > > 690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings. PV system circuits > installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid shutdown function to > reduce shock hazard for emergency responders in accordance with 690.12(A) > through (D). > > If your system is ground mounted, you are outside the "altruistic" intent > of 690.12 of protecting Firefighters. Put a initiation device disconnect > switch at the array. Any supporters of RS should chime in with the support > of 690.12 and add clarity and guidance to those of us who actually install > systems and have to deal with this baloney. 690.12 has caused more > problems for multimode systems than any tariffs, which are bad enough. I > don' think the industry needs any more "safe design and installation" > assistance from the CMPs involved with this issue. > > Chris Warfel > > > > > > > > > On 2018-08-23 00:31, Ray wrote: > > Greetings fellow wrenches; > > I know we have beat this many times but I once again have not been able to > resolve the contradictory information in 690 in regards to implementing > 690.12. As Rebekah Hren pointed out before, the diagrams shown in Figure > 690.1(b) show that the *PV System DC Circuit* stops at the *PV Disconnect*. > Note 2 says specifically the '*PV Disconnect separates the PV system from > all other systems*'. But then in the definitions in 690.2 on the next > page, the new definition of a *P**V System DC Circuit* says that it > includes DC to DC converter output circuits. (which are Solar Edge module > level controls, but could be interpreted as a MPPT battery charge > Controller?) > > Then 690.12 which only applies to '*PV System circuits in or on buildings*', > says we have to control conductors more than 3 ft after penetrating the > building. > > So in my case, I'm looking at a ground mount, and installing an external > lockable disconnect on the wall before it goes into the building. This > will officially be the PV Disconnect. In my interpretation, I should not > need to do any Rapid Shutdown, because I've essentially prevented the *PV > system* from ever entering the building at all ( based on the 5th diagram > and Note 2) However, I could see an AHJ claiming I had to do RS all the > way to the output side of the charge controller. > > If this were true, could I simply apply RS equipment from the PV > disconnect to the output of the charge controller, or am I back to module > level shutdown for my ground mounted array, or could I build a tiny > building that just housed the PV Disconnect and take the exemption for '*buildings > with the sole purpose of housing PV system equipment*'? > > Essentially the definitions in 690.2 are too broad, and are at odds with > the Figure and Notes of 690.1. They really didn't fix this in the 2017 > code for us lowly off gridders. Charge controllers are covered by article > 706.23 *Charge Control*, and NOT by 690.12 at all. IMHO, the charge > controller needs to be clearly defined and differentiated from DC to DC > converters like Solar Edge's module level DC equipment. > > I just want to go back to doing solar designs and installations, and quit > acting like an attorney parsing every word of this confusing code language. > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401)466-8978 > > [image: EEI logo] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Aug 28 11:32:16 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 08:32:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <20180823203653.B260C107943@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180823203653.B260C107943@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <3fad843ac60b4915b5708ab9f76a16b9@127.0.0.1> Drake, look at home depot for the Empire brand of small wall furnaces. They use zero power (old style thermo like a water heater) and can be legal as primary source of heat for building code. They vent out a wall and are very easy. Many of my clients use them to get legal and then use wood heating. Good luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 16:36:45 -0400, Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, although the transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ [3] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Tue Aug 28 12:25:03 2018 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 12:25:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <3fad843ac60b4915b5708ab9f76a16b9@127.0.0.1> References: <20180823203653.B260C107943@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <3fad843ac60b4915b5708ab9f76a16b9@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: If you relatively open floor plan I have been using the monitor heaters another one is the toyo brand They get burning air from outside and exhaust outside warming the incoming air at the same time They run on K1 kerosene and are very efficient They are a phantom load but what they save in fuel used over a standard furnace is very very considerable Seems I remember that used to be 650 W to start for a few minutes and then 115 W to run I have several customers using them with good results Mine cut my fuel use by about 150 gallons a year to just about 275 gallons a year No inspectors have a problem with them in this area. Your inspector may vary, like mileage statements ! Bob Ellison > On Aug 28, 2018, at 11:32 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Drake, look at home depot for the Empire brand of small wall furnaces. They use zero power (old style thermo like a water heater) and can be legal as primary source of heat for building code. They vent out a wall and are very easy. Many of my clients use them to get legal and then use wood heating. Good luck! > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 >> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 16:36:45 -0400, Drake wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, although the transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> http://athens-electric.com/ > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Aug 28 12:41:24 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 12:41:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again? In-Reply-To: References: <2c16302c-d422-b8d3-8d4d-c036568a0341@solarray.com> <84ac64db-611d-eae7-6cbd-cae5f7d2825c@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <33ce0298-c1c6-d2ea-422b-1a718cb50e67@entech-engineering.com> Thanks Rebecca, This will help. Chris On 8/28/2018 9:59 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > Hi all, > What you need to do now - to get your voices heard about rapid > shutdown requirements-  is to make public comments on the first draft > of the 2020 NEC. *_Comments are due AUGUST 30 at midnight!!! _* > > Here is the link to a press release >  with > links to read the draft and input your comments: > https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review > > The process for changing the NEC is standardized by the NFPA and while > it may not be perfect, it's what we've got! > > Best, > Rebekah Hren > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 6:50 AM cwarfel > > wrote: > > I like your solutions to this. Just sticking to rapid shutdown and > not the fire code, I think a lot of the problems with 690.12 could > be reduced if the maximum string voltage was 150 or even 250.  It > reduces the ampacity on a roof for a given power and I feel that > is more of a danger than array voltage that the Firefighters are > highly likely to avoid. > > I still cannot get Outback Power to provide a corrected > installation manual or a start up procedure on the RSI/ICS > equipment. Two plus months and all I get are repeated vague or > incorrect information. One expert at OB said that they really > didn't deal much with Rapid Shutdown............ > > I cannot install any more Outback on roofs at this time. > > I'll see if it is ok to provide a link to an online petition to > change 690.12. > > > Chris > > > > On 8/27/2018 2:13 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> HI Chris; >> >> As with all things bureaucratic,  good intentions can go awry >> when actually implemented.  Years ago, I was one of the wrenches >> pushing for some form of disconnect closer to the power source, >> or the PV array.  I had no idea it would come back to bite us >> small off grid folks so hard, though.  I'm not quite for >> scrapping all of 690.12, but I do think it needs some serious >> work. /In or on the building/ needs to be defined more clearly as >> 'on the roof'. Ground mounts need a clearer exemption. The PV >> disconnect needs to be clearly defined and also clearly stated >> that the Rapid disconnect system stops there.  The time limit >> needs to be bumped up to 90 seconds: no one is going to throw the >> switch and be hacking on the roof that fast.  The array voltage >> should be 150 vdc, so that lower voltage off grid systems could >> be exempt, and I really think 690.12 should only apply to larger >> arrays (over 10kW) that have long exposed runs of conduit (over >> 10 yards) or that cover more than a certain percentage of the >> total roof area.  If an array covers one face of the garage it >> should be exempt, and if it covers half the total roof, then it >> should have Rapid disconnect, for instance.  We need to be >> sensible, do the fire fighters have a good spot to cut and vent >> the roof without electrical hazards or not? >> >> Its interesting how article 690 has morphed from being almost >> entirely oriented towards off grid in 99 and 02, to now off grid >> is barely even considered. Just look at the lack of thought when >> they wrote the definitions for /DC to DC Converters/.  The solar >> industry has been ready and willing to be thrown under the bus at >> every turn.  I think its about time we started advocating for our >> own self interests like all the other parties involved.  This >> also means that us off grid folks need to be properly >> represented, and off grid considered with all code changes.  I >> think DC coupled PV should have its own section and be separated >> from AC coupled PV.  The systems are so different that it doesn't >> make sense to throw them into the same section.  The emergence of >> article 706 is a step in the right direction. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 8/23/18 5:31 PM, cwarfel at entech-engineering.com >> wrote: >>> >>> I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped professionally and >>> personally.  It was ill conceived and ill written.  Anyone >>> willing to join me in a petition to CMP 44 and the like, contact >>> me off list. >>> >>> To your question directly, you have a ground mounted system and >>> you are not subject to 690.12 unless your conductors are "in or >>> on building" which i cannot seem to find what that actually >>> means. Exempted are buildings that are isolated only for the PV >>> system This is a big win for installers as almost everyone >>> installs systems like this....... Right.    They used to have a >>> dimension to this, but I guess that gave installers too much >>> information. This is a stupid Code addition for roof mounted pv >>> systems, disguised as protecting Firefighters, but not doing so >>> in reality. The NEC looks politically compromised by consultants >>> and manufacturers who too advantage of this fear mongering. No >>> other country with a pv industry has historically done this. Why >>> are installers not up in arms about this? >>> >>> This is the NEC reference. >>> >>> 690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings. PV system >>> circuits installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid >>> shutdown function to reduce shock hazard for emergency >>> responders in accordance with 690.12(A) through (D). >>> >>> If your system is ground mounted, you are outside the >>> "altruistic" intent of 690.12 of protecting Firefighters. Put a >>> initiation device disconnect switch at the array.  Any >>> supporters of RS should chime in with the support of 690.12 and >>> add clarity and guidance to those of us who actually install >>> systems and have to deal with this baloney.  690.12 has caused >>> more problems for multimode systems than any tariffs, which are >>> bad enough. I don' think the industry needs any more "safe >>> design and installation" assistance from the CMPs involved with >>> this issue. >>> >>> Chris Warfel >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2018-08-23 00:31, Ray wrote: >>> >>>> Greetings fellow wrenches; >>>> >>>> I know we have beat this many times but I once again have not >>>> been able to resolve the contradictory information in 690 in >>>> regards to implementing 690.12.  As Rebekah Hren pointed out >>>> before, the diagrams shown in Figure 690.1(b) show that the /PV >>>> System DC Circuit/ stops at the /PV Disconnect/.  Note 2 says >>>> specifically the '/PV Disconnect separates the PV system from >>>> all other systems/'.  But then in the definitions in 690.2 on >>>> the next page, the new definition of a /P//V System DC Circuit/ >>>> says that it includes DC to DC converter output circuits.  >>>> (which are Solar Edge module level controls, but could be >>>> interpreted as a MPPT battery charge Controller?) >>>> >>>> Then 690.12 which only applies to '/PV System circuits in or on >>>> buildings/', says we have to control conductors more than 3 ft >>>> after penetrating the building. >>>> >>>> So in my case, I'm looking at a ground mount, and installing an >>>> external lockable disconnect on the wall before it goes into >>>> the building.  This will officially be the PV Disconnect.  In >>>> my interpretation, I should not need to do any Rapid Shutdown, >>>> because I've essentially prevented the /PV system/ from ever >>>> entering the building at all ( based on the 5th diagram and >>>> Note 2) However, I could see an AHJ claiming I had to do RS all >>>> the way to the output side of the charge controller. >>>> >>>> If this were true, could I simply apply RS equipment from the >>>> PV disconnect to the output of the charge controller, or am I >>>> back to module level shutdown for my ground mounted array, or >>>> could I build a tiny building that just housed the PV >>>> Disconnect and take the exemption for '/buildings with the sole >>>> purpose of housing PV system equipment/'? >>>> >>>> Essentially the definitions in 690.2 are too broad, and are at >>>> odds with the Figure and Notes of 690.1.  They really didn't >>>> fix this in the 2017 code for us lowly off gridders. Charge >>>> controllers are covered by article 706.23___/Charge Control/_, >>>> and NOT by 690.12 at all. IMHO, the charge controller needs to >>>> be clearly defined and differentiated from DC to DC converters >>>> like Solar Edge's module level DC equipment. >>>> >>>> I just want to go back to doing solar designs and >>>> installations, and quit acting like an attorney parsing every >>>> word of this confusing code language. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -- > >          Christopher Warfel, PE >        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                (401)466-8978 > > EEI logo > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Tue Aug 28 15:11:16 2018 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 13:11:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] JLM Phazr Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Does anyone know if JLM is still around/ products available? https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/jlm-energy-lays-off-workforce-to-seek-funding It sounds like not really, I wasn't at all convinced batteries on the roof were a good idea, but just curious if anyone has any insight, or used their products? Thanks! Rebekah -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Aug 28 16:02:05 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 13:02:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] JLM Phazr In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches I have had a very bad experance with JLM regarding warranty so l will no longer use any of tgere products Jerry On Tue, Aug 28, 2018, 12:11 PM Rebekah Hren wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > Does anyone know if JLM > > is still around/ products available? > > https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/jlm-energy-lays-off-workforce-to-seek-funding > > It sounds like not really, I wasn't at all convinced batteries on the roof > were a good idea, but just curious if anyone has any insight, or used their > products? > > Thanks! > Rebekah > > > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Aug 29 08:47:38 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 08:47:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <3fad843ac60b4915b5708ab9f76a16b9@127.0.0.1> References: <20180823203653.B260C107943@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <3fad843ac60b4915b5708ab9f76a16b9@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: That sounds like the ticket! At 11:32 AM 8/28/2018, you wrote: >Drake, look at home depot for the Empire brand of small wall >furnaces. They use zero power (old style thermo like a water heater) >and can be legal as primary source of heat for building code. They >vent out a wall and are very easy. Many of my clients use them to >get legal and then use wood heating. Good luck! > >Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >"we go where powerlines don't" >http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >text 209 813 0060 >On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 16:36:45 -0400, Drake > wrote: >>Hello Wrenches, >> >>What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an >>off grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom >>load, although the transformer for the thermostat may not be >>avoidable. Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace AC >>will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. >> >>Thank you, >> >>Drake >> >>Drake Chamberlin >>Athens Electric LLC >>OH License 44810 >>CO License 3773 >>NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>740-448-7328 >>http://athens-electric.com/ >-- > > > _______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 14:00:21 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:00:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: References: <20180823203653.B260C107943@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <3fad843ac60b4915b5708ab9f76a16b9@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Do people fill up their tanks with 5 gallon jugs of it hauled home in the back of their pickup trucks? That doesn't sound very safe. Or is there some sort of kerosene delivery truck that makes the rounds? No such thing exists here on the Colorado Front Range that I know of. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP Associate 970.672.4342 On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 10:25 AM RE Ellison wrote: > If you relatively open floor plan I have been using the monitor heaters > another one is the toyo brand > They get burning air from outside and exhaust outside warming the incoming > air at the same time > They run on K1 kerosene and are very efficient > They are a phantom load but what they save in fuel used over a standard > furnace is very very considerable > Seems I remember that used to be 650 W to start for a few minutes and then > 115 W to run > > I have several customers using them with good results > Mine cut my fuel use by about 150 gallons a year to just about 275 gallons > a year > No inspectors have a problem with them in this area. > Your inspector may vary, like mileage statements ! > > Bob Ellison > > On Aug 28, 2018, at 11:32 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > > Drake, look at home depot for the Empire brand of small wall furnaces. > They use zero power (old style thermo like a water heater) and can be legal > as primary source of heat for building code. They vent out a wall and are > very easy. Many of my clients use them to get legal and then use wood > heating. Good luck! > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 16:36:45 -0400, Drake < > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off grid > house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, although the > transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. Low blower current > would be preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 14:47:10 2018 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:47:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: References: <20180823203653.B260C107943@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <3fad843ac60b4915b5708ab9f76a16b9@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Here in northern New York fuel oil deliveries are a fact of life They can put you in auto delivery or you can order as you need it Home heating oil = diesel with fewer taxes here K1 kerosene is much cleaner, actually clear In this state they dye it for tax reasons Don’t get caught with it in a diesel truck tank ! The state will bend you over bad Easy to get delivered and use Bob > On Aug 29, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Do people fill up their tanks with 5 gallon jugs of it hauled home in the back of their pickup trucks? That doesn't sound very safe. Or is there some sort of kerosene delivery truck that makes the rounds? > No such thing exists here on the Colorado Front Range that I know of. > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > NABCEP Associate > > 970.672.4342 > > > > >> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 10:25 AM RE Ellison wrote: >> If you relatively open floor plan I have been using the monitor heaters another one is the toyo brand >> They get burning air from outside and exhaust outside warming the incoming air at the same time >> They run on K1 kerosene and are very efficient >> They are a phantom load but what they save in fuel used over a standard furnace is very very considerable >> Seems I remember that used to be 650 W to start for a few minutes and then 115 W to run >> >> I have several customers using them with good results >> Mine cut my fuel use by about 150 gallons a year to just about 275 gallons a year >> No inspectors have a problem with them in this area. >> Your inspector may vary, like mileage statements ! >> >> Bob Ellison >> >>> On Aug 28, 2018, at 11:32 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>> >>> Drake, look at home depot for the Empire brand of small wall furnaces. They use zero power (old style thermo like a water heater) and can be legal as primary source of heat for building code. They vent out a wall and are very easy. Many of my clients use them to get legal and then use wood heating. Good luck! >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 16:36:45 -0400, Drake wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>> >>>> What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, although the transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> Drake Chamberlin >>>> Athens Electric LLC >>>> OH License 44810 >>>> CO License 3773 >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>>> 740-448-7328 >>>> http://athens-electric.com/ >>> -- >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 29 15:35:35 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:35:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: References: <20180823203653.B260C107943@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <3fad843ac60b4915b5708ab9f76a16b9@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <04AA0B73-CF8A-4A46-858B-CE09891D6BD7@gmail.com> Hi Dan For larger uses, buying 55 gallon drums is usually best if you can’t get bulk delivery. Where I live, they deliver kerosene though. Jay > From ray at solarray.com Wed Aug 29 22:05:04 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 20:05:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again? In-Reply-To: References: <2c16302c-d422-b8d3-8d4d-c036568a0341@solarray.com> <84ac64db-611d-eae7-6cbd-cae5f7d2825c@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: The link to review the first draft of the 2020 code is not working.  Do you have just the changes for 690?  I'd really like to submit some comments. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/28/18 7:59 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > Hi all, > What you need to do now - to get your voices heard about rapid > shutdown requirements-  is to make public comments on the first draft > of the 2020 NEC. *_Comments are due AUGUST 30 at midnight!!! _* > > Here is the link to a press release >  with > links to read the draft and input your comments: > https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review > > The process for changing the NEC is standardized by the NFPA and while > it may not be perfect, it's what we've got! > > Best, > Rebekah Hren > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 6:50 AM cwarfel > > wrote: > > I like your solutions to this. Just sticking to rapid shutdown and > not the fire code, I think a lot of the problems with 690.12 could > be reduced if the maximum string voltage was 150 or even 250.  It > reduces the ampacity on a roof for a given power and I feel that > is more of a danger than array voltage that the Firefighters are > highly likely to avoid. > > I still cannot get Outback Power to provide a corrected > installation manual or a start up procedure on the RSI/ICS > equipment. Two plus months and all I get are repeated vague or > incorrect information. One expert at OB said that they really > didn't deal much with Rapid Shutdown............ > > I cannot install any more Outback on roofs at this time. > > I'll see if it is ok to provide a link to an online petition to > change 690.12. > > > Chris > > > > On 8/27/2018 2:13 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> HI Chris; >> >> As with all things bureaucratic,  good intentions can go awry >> when actually implemented.  Years ago, I was one of the wrenches >> pushing for some form of disconnect closer to the power source, >> or the PV array.  I had no idea it would come back to bite us >> small off grid folks so hard, though.  I'm not quite for >> scrapping all of 690.12, but I do think it needs some serious >> work. /In or on the building/ needs to be defined more clearly as >> 'on the roof'. Ground mounts need a clearer exemption. The PV >> disconnect needs to be clearly defined and also clearly stated >> that the Rapid disconnect system stops there.  The time limit >> needs to be bumped up to 90 seconds: no one is going to throw the >> switch and be hacking on the roof that fast.  The array voltage >> should be 150 vdc, so that lower voltage off grid systems could >> be exempt, and I really think 690.12 should only apply to larger >> arrays (over 10kW) that have long exposed runs of conduit (over >> 10 yards) or that cover more than a certain percentage of the >> total roof area.  If an array covers one face of the garage it >> should be exempt, and if it covers half the total roof, then it >> should have Rapid disconnect, for instance.  We need to be >> sensible, do the fire fighters have a good spot to cut and vent >> the roof without electrical hazards or not? >> >> Its interesting how article 690 has morphed from being almost >> entirely oriented towards off grid in 99 and 02, to now off grid >> is barely even considered. Just look at the lack of thought when >> they wrote the definitions for /DC to DC Converters/.  The solar >> industry has been ready and willing to be thrown under the bus at >> every turn.  I think its about time we started advocating for our >> own self interests like all the other parties involved.  This >> also means that us off grid folks need to be properly >> represented, and off grid considered with all code changes.  I >> think DC coupled PV should have its own section and be separated >> from AC coupled PV.  The systems are so different that it doesn't >> make sense to throw them into the same section.  The emergence of >> article 706 is a step in the right direction. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 8/23/18 5:31 PM, cwarfel at entech-engineering.com >> wrote: >>> >>> I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped professionally and >>> personally.  It was ill conceived and ill written.  Anyone >>> willing to join me in a petition to CMP 44 and the like, contact >>> me off list. >>> >>> To your question directly, you have a ground mounted system and >>> you are not subject to 690.12 unless your conductors are "in or >>> on building" which i cannot seem to find what that actually >>> means. Exempted are buildings that are isolated only for the PV >>> system This is a big win for installers as almost everyone >>> installs systems like this....... Right.    They used to have a >>> dimension to this, but I guess that gave installers too much >>> information. This is a stupid Code addition for roof mounted pv >>> systems, disguised as protecting Firefighters, but not doing so >>> in reality. The NEC looks politically compromised by consultants >>> and manufacturers who too advantage of this fear mongering. No >>> other country with a pv industry has historically done this. Why >>> are installers not up in arms about this? >>> >>> This is the NEC reference. >>> >>> 690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings. PV system >>> circuits installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid >>> shutdown function to reduce shock hazard for emergency >>> responders in accordance with 690.12(A) through (D). >>> >>> If your system is ground mounted, you are outside the >>> "altruistic" intent of 690.12 of protecting Firefighters. Put a >>> initiation device disconnect switch at the array.  Any >>> supporters of RS should chime in with the support of 690.12 and >>> add clarity and guidance to those of us who actually install >>> systems and have to deal with this baloney.  690.12 has caused >>> more problems for multimode systems than any tariffs, which are >>> bad enough. I don' think the industry needs any more "safe >>> design and installation" assistance from the CMPs involved with >>> this issue. >>> >>> Chris Warfel >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2018-08-23 00:31, Ray wrote: >>> >>>> Greetings fellow wrenches; >>>> >>>> I know we have beat this many times but I once again have not >>>> been able to resolve the contradictory information in 690 in >>>> regards to implementing 690.12.  As Rebekah Hren pointed out >>>> before, the diagrams shown in Figure 690.1(b) show that the /PV >>>> System DC Circuit/ stops at the /PV Disconnect/.  Note 2 says >>>> specifically the '/PV Disconnect separates the PV system from >>>> all other systems/'.  But then in the definitions in 690.2 on >>>> the next page, the new definition of a /P//V System DC Circuit/ >>>> says that it includes DC to DC converter output circuits.  >>>> (which are Solar Edge module level controls, but could be >>>> interpreted as a MPPT battery charge Controller?) >>>> >>>> Then 690.12 which only applies to '/PV System circuits in or on >>>> buildings/', says we have to control conductors more than 3 ft >>>> after penetrating the building. >>>> >>>> So in my case, I'm looking at a ground mount, and installing an >>>> external lockable disconnect on the wall before it goes into >>>> the building.  This will officially be the PV Disconnect.  In >>>> my interpretation, I should not need to do any Rapid Shutdown, >>>> because I've essentially prevented the /PV system/ from ever >>>> entering the building at all ( based on the 5th diagram and >>>> Note 2) However, I could see an AHJ claiming I had to do RS all >>>> the way to the output side of the charge controller. >>>> >>>> If this were true, could I simply apply RS equipment from the >>>> PV disconnect to the output of the charge controller, or am I >>>> back to module level shutdown for my ground mounted array, or >>>> could I build a tiny building that just housed the PV >>>> Disconnect and take the exemption for '/buildings with the sole >>>> purpose of housing PV system equipment/'? >>>> >>>> Essentially the definitions in 690.2 are too broad, and are at >>>> odds with the Figure and Notes of 690.1.  They really didn't >>>> fix this in the 2017 code for us lowly off gridders. Charge >>>> controllers are covered by article 706.23___/Charge Control/_, >>>> and NOT by 690.12 at all. IMHO, the charge controller needs to >>>> be clearly defined and differentiated from DC to DC converters >>>> like Solar Edge's module level DC equipment. >>>> >>>> I just want to go back to doing solar designs and >>>> installations, and quit acting like an attorney parsing every >>>> word of this confusing code language. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -- > >          Christopher Warfel, PE >        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                (401)466-8978 > > EEI logo > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Aug 30 07:02:38 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 07:02:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <20180829124746.BC9981026F8@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180823203653.B260C107943@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <3fad843ac60b4915b5708ab9f76a16b9@127.0.0.1> <20180829124746.BC9981026F8@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <89575620-7717-4B42-A672-7735E2A7DFD5@swnl.net> One thing that has yet to be mentioned is that the Empire heaters in any home are noisy. The pilot stays on all the time and most of my off grid homes quiet is what folks enjoy the most. Inverters/ gen in the power shed, Blomburg fridges @1.9RA (chill plate) and the we have installed the Rinnai heaters both K1 & propane for many years w/ little to no problems. Off in the summer season and quiet yes they do shut down w/ out AC but when the AC is restored there is a default temp that is maintained. > On Aug 29, 2018, at 8:47 AM, Drake wrote: > > That sounds like the ticket! > > At 11:32 AM 8/28/2018, you wrote: > >> Drake, look at home depot for the Empire brand of small wall furnaces. They use zero power (old style thermo like a water heater) and can be legal as primary source of heat for building code. They vent out a wall and are very easy. Many of my clients use them to get legal and then use wood heating. Good luck! >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail >> offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 16:36:45 -0400, Drake wrote: >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, although the transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> <>Drake Chamberlin >>> Athens Electric LLC >>> OH License 44810 >>> CO License 3773 >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>> 740-448-7328 >>> http://athens-electric.com/ >> -- >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Aug 30 09:01:43 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 09:01:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again? In-Reply-To: References: <2c16302c-d422-b8d3-8d4d-c036568a0341@solarray.com> <84ac64db-611d-eae7-6cbd-cae5f7d2825c@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <0104e35e-1fe4-bd54-de0c-34152a7158ae@entech-engineering.com> In submitting my comments, I only could access 2017, and that's where I made my comments.  Does anyone have more information, or is it too late? On 8/29/2018 10:05 PM, Ray wrote: > > The link to review the first draft of the 2020 code is not working.  > Do you have just the changes for 690?  I'd really like to submit some > comments. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 8/28/18 7:59 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: >> Hi all, >> What you need to do now - to get your voices heard about rapid >> shutdown requirements-  is to make public comments on the first draft >> of the 2020 NEC. *_Comments are due AUGUST 30 at midnight!!! _* >> >> Here is the link to a press release >>  with >> links to read the draft and input your comments: >> https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review >> >> The process for changing the NEC is standardized by the NFPA and >> while it may not be perfect, it's what we've got! >> >> Best, >> Rebekah Hren >> >> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 6:50 AM cwarfel >> > > wrote: >> >> I like your solutions to this. Just sticking to rapid shutdown >> and not the fire code, I think a lot of the problems with 690.12 >> could be reduced if the maximum string voltage was 150 or even >> 250.  It reduces the ampacity on a roof for a given power and I >> feel that is more of a danger than array voltage that the >> Firefighters are highly likely to avoid. >> >> I still cannot get Outback Power to provide a corrected >> installation manual or a start up procedure on the RSI/ICS >> equipment. Two plus months and all I get are repeated vague or >> incorrect information. One expert at OB said that they really >> didn't deal much with Rapid Shutdown............ >> >> I cannot install any more Outback on roofs at this time. >> >> I'll see if it is ok to provide a link to an online petition to >> change 690.12. >> >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> On 8/27/2018 2:13 PM, Ray wrote: >>> >>> HI Chris; >>> >>> As with all things bureaucratic,  good intentions can go awry >>> when actually implemented.  Years ago, I was one of the wrenches >>> pushing for some form of disconnect closer to the power source, >>> or the PV array.  I had no idea it would come back to bite us >>> small off grid folks so hard, though.  I'm not quite for >>> scrapping all of 690.12, but I do think it needs some serious >>> work. /In or on the building/ needs to be defined more clearly >>> as 'on the roof'. Ground mounts need a clearer exemption. The PV >>> disconnect needs to be clearly defined and also clearly stated >>> that the Rapid disconnect system stops there.  The time limit >>> needs to be bumped up to 90 seconds: no one is going to throw >>> the switch and be hacking on the roof that fast.  The array >>> voltage should be 150 vdc, so that lower voltage off grid >>> systems could be exempt, and I really think 690.12 should only >>> apply to larger arrays (over 10kW) that have long exposed runs >>> of conduit (over 10 yards) or that cover more than a certain >>> percentage of the total roof area.  If an array covers one face >>> of the garage it should be exempt, and if it covers half the >>> total roof, then it should have Rapid disconnect, for instance.  >>> We need to be sensible, do the fire fighters have a good spot to >>> cut and vent the roof without electrical hazards or not? >>> >>> Its interesting how article 690 has morphed from being almost >>> entirely oriented towards off grid in 99 and 02, to now off grid >>> is barely even considered.  Just look at the lack of thought >>> when they wrote the definitions for /DC to DC Converters/.  The >>> solar industry has been ready and willing to be thrown under the >>> bus at every turn.  I think its about time we started advocating >>> for our own self interests like all the other parties involved.  >>> This also means that us off grid folks need to be properly >>> represented, and off grid considered with all code changes.  I >>> think DC coupled PV should have its own section and be separated >>> from AC coupled PV.  The systems are so different that it >>> doesn't make sense to throw them into the same section.  The >>> emergence of article 706 is a step in the right direction. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> On 8/23/18 5:31 PM, cwarfel at entech-engineering.com >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped professionally and >>>> personally.  It was ill conceived and ill written.  Anyone >>>> willing to join me in a petition to CMP 44 and the like, >>>> contact me off list. >>>> >>>> To your question directly, you have a ground mounted system and >>>> you are not subject to 690.12 unless your conductors are "in or >>>> on building" which i cannot seem to find what that actually >>>> means. Exempted are buildings that are isolated only for the PV >>>> system This is a big win for installers as almost everyone >>>> installs systems like this.......   Right.    They used to have >>>> a dimension to this, but I guess that gave installers too much >>>> information. This is a stupid Code addition for roof mounted pv >>>> systems, disguised as protecting Firefighters, but not doing so >>>> in reality. The NEC looks politically compromised by >>>> consultants and manufacturers who too advantage of this fear >>>> mongering. No other country with a pv industry has historically >>>> done this. Why are installers not up in arms about this? >>>> >>>> This is the NEC reference. >>>> >>>> 690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings. PV system >>>> circuits installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid >>>> shutdown function to reduce shock hazard for emergency >>>> responders in accordance with 690.12(A) through (D). >>>> >>>> If your system is ground mounted, you are outside the >>>> "altruistic" intent of 690.12 of protecting Firefighters. Put a >>>> initiation device disconnect switch at the array.  Any >>>> supporters of RS should chime in with the support of 690.12 and >>>> add clarity and guidance to those of us who actually install >>>> systems and have to deal with this baloney.  690.12 has caused >>>> more problems for multimode systems than any tariffs, which are >>>> bad enough. I don' think the industry needs any more "safe >>>> design and installation" assistance from the CMPs involved with >>>> this issue. >>>> >>>> Chris Warfel >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2018-08-23 00:31, Ray wrote: >>>> >>>>> Greetings fellow wrenches; >>>>> >>>>> I know we have beat this many times but I once again have not >>>>> been able to resolve the contradictory information in 690 in >>>>> regards to implementing 690.12.  As Rebekah Hren pointed out >>>>> before, the diagrams shown in Figure 690.1(b) show that the >>>>> /PV System DC Circuit/ stops at the /PV Disconnect/.  Note 2 >>>>> says specifically the '/PV Disconnect separates the PV system >>>>> from all other systems/'. But then in the definitions in 690.2 >>>>> on the next page, the new definition of a /P//V System DC >>>>> Circuit/ says that it includes DC to DC converter output >>>>> circuits.  (which are Solar Edge module level controls, but >>>>> could be interpreted as a MPPT battery charge Controller?) >>>>> >>>>> Then 690.12 which only applies to '/PV System circuits in or >>>>> on buildings/', says we have to control conductors more than 3 >>>>> ft after penetrating the building. >>>>> >>>>> So in my case, I'm looking at a ground mount, and installing >>>>> an external lockable disconnect on the wall before it goes >>>>> into the building. This will officially be the PV Disconnect.  >>>>> In my interpretation, I should not need to do any Rapid >>>>> Shutdown, because I've essentially prevented the /PV system/ >>>>> from ever entering the building at all ( based on the 5th >>>>> diagram and Note 2)  However, I could see an AHJ claiming I >>>>> had to do RS all the way to the output side of the charge >>>>> controller. >>>>> >>>>> If this were true, could I simply apply RS equipment from the >>>>> PV disconnect to the output of the charge controller, or am I >>>>> back to module level shutdown for my ground mounted array, or >>>>> could I build a tiny building that just housed the PV >>>>> Disconnect and take the exemption for '/buildings with the >>>>> sole purpose of housing PV system equipment/'? >>>>> >>>>> Essentially the definitions in 690.2 are too broad, and are at >>>>> odds with the Figure and Notes of 690.1.  They really didn't >>>>> fix this in the 2017 code for us lowly off gridders. Charge >>>>> controllers are covered by article 706.23___/Charge Control/_, >>>>> and NOT by 690.12 at all. IMHO, the charge controller needs to >>>>> be clearly defined and differentiated from DC to DC converters >>>>> like Solar Edge's module level DC equipment. >>>>> >>>>> I just want to go back to doing solar designs and >>>>> installations, and quit acting like an attorney parsing every >>>>> word of this confusing code language. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ray Walters >>>>> Remote Solar >>>>> 303 505-8760 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> -- >> >>          Christopher Warfel, PE >>        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>                (401)466-8978 >> >> EEI logo >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> Tel: 336.266.8800 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 >> NC Licensed Electrical Contractor >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Thu Aug 30 09:36:58 2018 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 07:36:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again? In-Reply-To: <0104e35e-1fe4-bd54-de0c-34152a7158ae@entech-engineering.com> References: <2c16302c-d422-b8d3-8d4d-c036568a0341@solarray.com> <84ac64db-611d-eae7-6cbd-cae5f7d2825c@entech-engineering.com> <0104e35e-1fe4-bd54-de0c-34152a7158ae@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hi, Appreciate y'all trying! Chris I have a feeling you were in the correct location, it does say 2017 edition at the top of the page although it is the 2020 draft. You have until midnight today to make comments ( website says 5 PM EST, but I have been told multiple times it is really open until midnight). Another way to access the draft is to click through here (make sure you are logged in: https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70&tab=nextedition and then click on submit a public comment down on the right: [image: Screen Shot 2018-08-30 at 7.26.15 AM.png] Once you click through submit public comments, you will see the whole first draft by dropdown menu in Terraview, the NFPA comment software. You can go straight to 690 there. The little box on the left of each Sections is what you click on to edit/update the text directly in Terraview. You can see in the picture below I inserted a comment in 690.12. If you want to see the changes in legislative text and with the public input and responses, click on the first draft link, which is below the public comments link in the above page. [image: Screen Shot 2018-08-30 at 7.25.29 AM.png] On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:01 AM cwarfel wrote: > In submitting my comments, I only could access 2017, and that's where I made > my comments. Does anyone have more information, or is it too late? > > On 8/29/2018 10:05 PM, Ray wrote: > > The link to review the first draft of the 2020 code is not working. Do > you have just the changes for 690? I'd really like to submit some comments. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 8/28/18 7:59 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > > Hi all, > What you need to do now - to get your voices heard about rapid shutdown > requirements- is to make public comments on the first draft of the 2020 > NEC. *Comments are due AUGUST 30 at midnight!!! * > > Here is the link to a press release > with > links to read the draft and input your comments: > > https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review > > The process for changing the NEC is standardized by the NFPA and while it > may not be perfect, it's what we've got! > > Best, > Rebekah Hren > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 6:50 AM cwarfel > wrote: > >> I like your solutions to this. Just sticking to rapid shutdown and not >> the fire code, I think a lot of the problems with 690.12 could be >> reduced if the maximum string voltage was 150 or even 250. It reduces >> the ampacity on a roof for a given power and I feel that is more of a >> danger than array voltage that the Firefighters are highly likely to >> avoid. >> >> I still cannot get Outback Power to provide a corrected installation manual >> or a start up procedure on the RSI/ICS equipment. Two plus months and >> all I get are repeated vague or incorrect information. One expert at OB >> said that they really didn't deal much with Rapid Shutdown............ >> >> I cannot install any more Outback on roofs at this time. >> >> I'll see if it is ok to provide a link to an online petition to change >> 690.12. >> >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> On 8/27/2018 2:13 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> HI Chris; >> >> As with all things bureaucratic, good intentions can go awry when >> actually implemented. Years ago, I was one of the wrenches pushing for >> some form of disconnect closer to the power source, or the PV array. I had >> no idea it would come back to bite us small off grid folks so hard, >> though. I'm not quite for scrapping all of 690.12, but I do think it needs >> some serious work. *In or on the building* needs to be defined more >> clearly as 'on the roof'. Ground mounts need a clearer exemption. The PV >> disconnect needs to be clearly defined and also clearly stated that the >> Rapid disconnect system stops there. The time limit needs to be bumped up >> to 90 seconds: no one is going to throw the switch and be hacking on the >> roof that fast. The array voltage should be 150 vdc, so that lower voltage >> off grid systems could be exempt, and I really think 690.12 should only >> apply to larger arrays (over 10kW) that have long exposed runs of conduit >> (over 10 yards) or that cover more than a certain percentage of the total >> roof area. If an array covers one face of the garage it should be exempt, >> and if it covers half the total roof, then it should have Rapid disconnect, >> for instance. We need to be sensible, do the fire fighters have a good >> spot to cut and vent the roof without electrical hazards or not? >> >> Its interesting how article 690 has morphed from being almost entirely >> oriented towards off grid in 99 and 02, to now off grid is barely even >> considered. Just look at the lack of thought when they wrote the >> definitions for *DC to DC Converters*. The solar industry has been >> ready and willing to be thrown under the bus at every turn. I think its >> about time we started advocating for our own self interests like all the >> other parties involved. This also means that us off grid folks need to be >> properly represented, and off grid considered with all code changes. I >> think DC coupled PV should have its own section and be separated from AC >> coupled PV. The systems are so different that it doesn't make sense to >> throw them into the same section. The emergence of article 706 is a step >> in the right direction. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 8/23/18 5:31 PM, cwarfel at entech-engineering.com wrote: >> >> I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped professionally and personally. >> It was ill conceived and ill written. Anyone willing to join me in a >> petition to CMP 44 and the like, contact me off list. >> >> To your question directly, you have a ground mounted system and you are >> not subject to 690.12 unless your conductors are "in or on building" which >> i cannot seem to find what that actually means. Exempted are buildings that >> are isolated only for the PV system This is a big win for installers as >> almost everyone installs systems like this....... Right. They used to >> have a dimension to this, but I guess that gave installers too much >> information. This is a stupid Code addition for roof mounted pv systems, >> disguised as protecting Firefighters, but not doing so in reality. The NEC >> looks politically compromised by consultants and manufacturers who too >> advantage of this fear mongering. No other country with a pv industry has >> historically done this. Why are installers not up in arms about this? >> >> This is the NEC reference. >> >> 690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings. PV system circuits >> installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid shutdown function to >> reduce shock hazard for emergency responders in accordance with 690.12(A) >> through (D). >> >> If your system is ground mounted, you are outside the "altruistic" intent >> of 690.12 of protecting Firefighters. Put a initiation device disconnect >> switch at the array. Any supporters of RS should chime in with the support >> of 690.12 and add clarity and guidance to those of us who actually install >> systems and have to deal with this baloney. 690.12 has caused more >> problems for multimode systems than any tariffs, which are bad enough. I >> don' think the industry needs any more "safe design and installation" >> assistance from the CMPs involved with this issue. >> >> Chris Warfel >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 2018-08-23 00:31, Ray wrote: >> >> Greetings fellow wrenches; >> >> I know we have beat this many times but I once again have not been able >> to resolve the contradictory information in 690 in regards to implementing >> 690.12. As Rebekah Hren pointed out before, the diagrams shown in Figure >> 690.1(b) show that the *PV System DC Circuit* stops at the *PV >> Disconnect*. Note 2 says specifically the '*PV Disconnect separates the >> PV system from all other systems*'. But then in the definitions in >> 690.2 on the next page, the new definition of a *P**V System DC Circuit* >> says that it includes DC to DC converter output circuits. (which are Solar >> Edge module level controls, but could be interpreted as a MPPT battery >> charge Controller?) >> >> Then 690.12 which only applies to '*PV System circuits in or on >> buildings*', says we have to control conductors more than 3 ft after >> penetrating the building. >> >> So in my case, I'm looking at a ground mount, and installing an external >> lockable disconnect on the wall before it goes into the building. This >> will officially be the PV Disconnect. In my interpretation, I should not >> need to do any Rapid Shutdown, because I've essentially prevented the *PV >> system* from ever entering the building at all ( based on the 5th >> diagram and Note 2) However, I could see an AHJ claiming I had to do RS >> all the way to the output side of the charge controller. >> >> If this were true, could I simply apply RS equipment from the PV >> disconnect to the output of the charge controller, or am I back to module >> level shutdown for my ground mounted array, or could I build a tiny >> building that just housed the PV Disconnect and take the exemption for '*buildings >> with the sole purpose of housing PV system equipment*'? >> >> Essentially the definitions in 690.2 are too broad, and are at odds with >> the Figure and Notes of 690.1. They really didn't fix this in the 2017 >> code for us lowly off gridders. Charge controllers are covered by article >> 706.23 *Charge Control*, and NOT by 690.12 at all. IMHO, the charge >> controller needs to be clearly defined and differentiated from DC to DC >> converters like Solar Edge's module level DC equipment. >> >> I just want to go back to doing solar designs and installations, and quit >> acting like an attorney parsing every word of this confusing code language. >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> >> Christopher Warfel, PE >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> (401)466-8978 >> >> [image: EEI logo] >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401)466-8978 > > [image: EEI logo] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Aug 30 10:12:42 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 07:12:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <89575620-7717-4B42-A672-7735E2A7DFD5@swnl.net> References: <20180823203653.B260C107943@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <3fad843ac60b4915b5708ab9f76a16b9@127.0.0.1> <20180829124746.BC9981026F8@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <89575620-7717-4B42-A672-7735E2A7DFD5@swnl.net> Message-ID: <3356eb95cb7a7f5a345a4f8a8be94b5b@127.0.0.1> I think one can find fault with anything. One thing about Empire is that is does not require AC and frankly most people want heat offgrid from many sources. Just a way to get legal for a certificate of occupancy and it was what the OP was looking for. The blend of a wood stove, mini-split heat pump, and a propane heater are probably as offgrid as it gets these days. We love quiet also and have for 26 years here. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 07:02:38 -0400, Tump wrote: One thing that has yet to be mentioned is that the Empire heaters in any home are noisy. The pilot stays on all the time and most of my off grid homes quiet is what folks enjoy the most. Inverters/ gen in the power shed, Blomburg fridges @1.9RA (chill plate) and the we have installed the Rinnai heaters both K1 border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> On Aug 29, 2018, at 8:47 AM, Drake wrote: That sounds like the ticket! At 11:32 AM 8/28/2018, you wrote: Drake, look at home depot for the Empire brand of small wall furnaces. They use zero power (old style thermo like a water heater) and can be legal as primary source of heat for building code. They vent out a wall and are very easy. Many of my clients use them to get legal and then use wood heating. Good luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 16:36:45 -0400, Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, although the transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. Thank you, Drake Drake ChamberlinAthens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328http://athens-electric.com/ [6] -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> WWW.SWNL.NET [14] Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE "> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 _ _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [6] http://athens-electric.com/ [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [12] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://webmail.sti.net/blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adirondackbattery at gmail.com Thu Aug 30 11:11:35 2018 From: adirondackbattery at gmail.com (Amanda Potter) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 11:11:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <3356eb95cb7a7f5a345a4f8a8be94b5b@127.0.0.1> References: <20180823203653.B260C107943@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <3fad843ac60b4915b5708ab9f76a16b9@127.0.0.1> <20180829124746.BC9981026F8@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <89575620-7717-4B42-A672-7735E2A7DFD5@swnl.net> <3356eb95cb7a7f5a345a4f8a8be94b5b@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hello Wrenches; What would you recommend for an (off-grid) mini-split heat pump? Thank you ahead of time. Amanda Potter NABCEP PV Installation Professional NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC Potsdam, NY (315) 212-2114 > On Aug 30, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I think one can find fault with anything. One thing about Empire is that is does not require AC and frankly most people want heat offgrid from many sources. Just a way to get legal for a certificate of occupancy and it was what the OP was looking for. > > The blend of a wood stove, mini-split heat pump, and a propane heater are probably as offgrid as it gets these days. > > We love quiet also and have for 26 years here. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 >> On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 07:02:38 -0400, Tump wrote: >> >> One thing that has yet to be mentioned is that the Empire heaters in any home are noisy. The pilot >> stays on all the time and most of my off grid homes quiet is what folks enjoy the most. Inverters/ gen in the power shed, Blomburg fridges @1.9RA (chill plate) and the we have installed the Rinnai heaters both K1 & propane for many years w/ little to no problems. Off in the summer season and quiet yes they do shut down w/ out AC but when the AC is restored there is a default temp that is maintained. >>> On Aug 29, 2018, at 8:47 AM, Drake wrote: >>> >>> That sounds like the ticket! >>> >>> At 11:32 AM 8/28/2018, you wrote: >>> >>> Drake, look at home depot for the Empire brand of small wall furnaces. They use zero power (old style thermo like a water heater) and can be legal as primary source of heat for building code. They vent out a wall and are very easy. Many of my clients use them to get legal and then use wood heating. Good luck! >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail >>> offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>> >>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 16:36:45 -0400, Drake wrote: >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, although the transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> Drake Chamberlin >>> Athens Electric LLC >>> OH License 44810 >>> CO License 3773 >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>> 740-448-7328 >>> http://athens-electric.com/ >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >>> Solarwinds Northernlights >>> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >>> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >>> Blair "TUMP" May >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >>> >>> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >>> > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emerkel15 at gmail.com Thu Aug 30 13:02:46 2018 From: emerkel15 at gmail.com (Evan M) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 13:02:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again? Message-ID: Curious if there's any way to view the 2020 draft with the gray highlighted proposed changes formatting typical of published final versions of the Code. I didn't see it but it would make for much easier comparison of what's being considered and how that change really differs from the status quo without having the 2017 book open on the table. Maybe food for thought for 2023. // Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Thu Aug 30 13:07:53 2018 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 11:07:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Evan, if you click on first draft report instead of submit comments you will find it. On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:03 AM Evan M wrote: > Curious if there's any way to view the 2020 draft with the gray > highlighted proposed changes formatting typical of published final versions > of the Code. I didn't see it but it would make for much easier comparison > of what's being considered and how that change really differs from the > status quo without having the 2017 book open on the table. Maybe food for > thought for 2023. > > // Evan > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Tel: 336.266.8800 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 NC Licensed Electrical Contractor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu Aug 30 13:37:47 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 07:37:47 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] three-phase storage Message-ID: <006d01d44088$2bd58350$838089f0$@com> Aloha all, I'm on the hunt for three-phase storage @ 277/480V. Yes, Tesla has its Powerpack. But availability is questionable. I'm open to suggestions, please. Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Aug 30 15:14:38 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 12:14:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] three-phase storage In-Reply-To: <006d01d44088$2bd58350$838089f0$@com> References: <006d01d44088$2bd58350$838089f0$@com> Message-ID: <6AE4D014-00B9-4B61-920F-A9599F3D8D20@starlightsolar.com> Marco, Storage for 3 phase? Please elaborate because I know you know that energy is stored in the battery bank and then you convert it to the voltage and phases needed with your inverters. Contact me off the board if you need a quote for Li-ion off grid battery systems. We offer dealer discounts to wrenches. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Aug 30, 2018, at 10:37 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: Aloha all, I’m on the hunt for three-phase storage @ 277/480V. Yes, Tesla has its Powerpack. But availability is questionable. I’m open to suggestions, please. Mahalo, marco _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emerkel15 at gmail.com Thu Aug 30 17:34:47 2018 From: emerkel15 at gmail.com (Evan M) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 17:34:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again? Message-ID: Excellent, thanks Rebekah! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 11:13:57 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 08:13:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phone/ sun position apps Message-ID: <47B7953D-B97F-4FFD-99F2-11B0FB2EE6C0@gmail.com> Hi all, I’m wondering about which apps people are using for determining shading and sun position. Thx Jay Peltz Power. From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 12:27:41 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 09:27:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phone/ sun position apps In-Reply-To: <47B7953D-B97F-4FFD-99F2-11B0FB2EE6C0@gmail.com> References: <47B7953D-B97F-4FFD-99F2-11B0FB2EE6C0@gmail.com> Message-ID: I still use the sun eye and solmetric, noting works as well as being on site, solmetric had an app way back when that was on a subcription bases Jerry On Mon, Sep 3, 2018, 9:22 AM Jay wrote: > Hi all, > > I’m wondering about which apps people are using for determining shading > and sun position. > > Thx > Jay > > Peltz Power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > On Sep 3, 2018 9:22 AM, "Jay" wrote: Hi all, I’m wondering about which apps people are using for determining shading and sun position. Thx Jay Peltz Power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 12:45:10 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 10:45:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phone/ sun position apps In-Reply-To: References: <47B7953D-B97F-4FFD-99F2-11B0FB2EE6C0@gmail.com> Message-ID: I use Solar Shading from Comoving Magnetics on Android. I had my class test it versus the Solar Pathfinder and Solmetric Suneye, and our shading readings were within 6-8%. The Solmetric Sunviewer app is also handy. I have never tried their iPV app because of the price, and because Solar Shades is working fine for me. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP PV Associate 970.672.4342 On Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 10:28 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > I still use the sun eye and solmetric, noting works as well as being on > site, solmetric had an app way back when that was on a subcription bases > Jerry > > On Mon, Sep 3, 2018, 9:22 AM Jay wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I’m wondering about which apps people are using for determining shading >> and sun position. >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> Peltz Power. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > On Sep 3, 2018 9:22 AM, "Jay" wrote: > > Hi all, > > I’m wondering about which apps people are using for determining shading > and sun position. > > Thx > Jay > > Peltz Power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ken at commonwealthsolar.com Mon Sep 3 14:26:53 2018 From: Ken at commonwealthsolar.com (Ken Schaal) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 14:26:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phone/ sun position apps In-Reply-To: References: <47B7953D-B97F-4FFD-99F2-11B0FB2EE6C0@gmail.com> Message-ID: I started siting SHW systems in 1976. Studied sun angle chart persistently, until i had a good sense of how the sun moves for our area in central Virginia. We also have lots of trees...fast growing, tall trees ! So while precision shading analysis is a valuable tool, the info is static. Our sites are rarely static ! The biggest issue here is getting clients to manage their trees. I learned this even before I started installing SHW, when I first built a sunroom on the south side of my house in 1974. Many trees have grown, and then become firewood, since then. When the pv system was installed, in 2008, several more trees on the east and west were removed.Fortunately there were now taller trees to the NE and NW to shade house in summer. Exterior movable shading, sunscreen, on south windows, combined with interior insulating shades, allowing the collectors and pv panels to be in full sun, while the house is protected from unwanted spring, summer, fall solar gain. Being a full service solar contractor requires a long term perspective in our climate. And most importantly, clients willing and able to manage their trees ! It has been my observation that folks that love solar, hate to cut trees, even tho trees, in our climate, grow faster now due to climate change. Ken Schaal CommonWealthSolar.com On Mon, Sep 3, 2018, 12:45 PM Dan Fink wrote: > I use Solar Shading from Comoving Magnetics on Android. I had my class > test it versus the Solar Pathfinder and Solmetric Suneye, and our shading > readings were within 6-8%. > > The Solmetric Sunviewer app is also handy. I have never tried their iPV > app because of the price, and because Solar Shades is working fine for me. > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > NABCEP PV Associate > > 970.672.4342 > > > > > On Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 10:28 AM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> I still use the sun eye and solmetric, noting works as well as being on >> site, solmetric had an app way back when that was on a subcription bases >> Jerry >> >> On Mon, Sep 3, 2018, 9:22 AM Jay wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I’m wondering about which apps people are using for determining shading >>> and sun position. >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> Peltz Power. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> On Sep 3, 2018 9:22 AM, "Jay" wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> I’m wondering about which apps people are using for determining shading >> and sun position. >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> Peltz Power. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Sep 3 15:29:42 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 13:29:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phone/ sun position apps In-Reply-To: References: <47B7953D-B97F-4FFD-99F2-11B0FB2EE6C0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <80560f6c-b89e-d78b-c929-c0971b6be452@solarray.com> HI Ken; Don't tell me, but you probably still have a copy of /The Passive Solar Energy Book/ on your shelves, with those nice old solar siting charts? Those of us lucky enough to have been in the business for decades have been confronted with Ken's little considered fact: *Trees grow*.  I went back to a site I had done in '99, and was amazed I was so stupid to put the array in the shade of a 30 ft tree.  That must have been before I got my Solar Pathfinder, I thought......Then I started looking at the tree and my old pics of the site, and realized that tree was only about 5 ft tall, when I did the system.  As Homer Simpson says:  " /Douhh!/ " On the flip side, beetle kill in the Southwest has had the opposite effect; arrays that were on tall poles to get above the tree shading are now rather ridiculous looking sitting out by themselves in the now large clearing. While I certainly didn't go into solar to cut down trees, sometimes it needs to happen along with clearing trees close to the house for fire danger.  I do my best to get folks to move the array to save the big beauties. (yea, I'm a tree hugger at heart) Higher voltage arrays courtesy of MPPT controllers help in that regard, too. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/3/18 12:26 PM, Ken Schaal wrote: > I started siting SHW systems in 1976. > Studied sun angle chart persistently, until i had a good sense of how > the sun moves for our area in central Virginia. >  We also have lots of trees...fast growing, tall trees ! > So while  precision shading analysis is a valuable tool, the info is > static. > Our sites are rarely static ! > The biggest issue here is getting clients to manage their trees. > I learned this even before I  started installing SHW, when I first > built a sunroom on the south side of my house in 1974. >  Many trees have grown, and then become firewood, since then. > When the pv system was installed, in 2008, several more trees on the > east and west were removed.Fortunately there were now taller trees to > the NE and NW to shade house  in summer. Exterior movable shading, > sunscreen,  on south windows, combined with interior insulating > shades, allowing the collectors and pv panels to be in full sun, while > the house is protected from unwanted spring, summer, fall solar gain. > Being a full service solar contractor requires a long term perspective > in our climate. And most importantly, clients willing and able to > manage their trees ! > It has been my observation that folks that love solar, hate to cut > trees, even tho trees, in our climate, grow faster now due to climate > change. > > Ken Schaal > CommonWealthSolar.com > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 3, 2018, 12:45 PM Dan Fink > wrote: > > I use Solar Shading from Comoving Magnetics on Android. I had my > class test it versus the Solar Pathfinder and Solmetric Suneye, > and our shading readings were within 6-8%. > > The Solmetric Sunviewer app is also handy. I have never tried > their iPV app because of the price, and because Solar Shades is > working fine for me. > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > NABCEP PV Associate > > 970.672.4342 > > > > On Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 10:28 AM Jerry Shafer > > wrote: > > I still use the sun eye and solmetric, noting works as well as > being on site, solmetric had an app way back when that was on > a subcription bases > Jerry > > On Mon, Sep 3, 2018, 9:22 AM Jay > wrote: > > Hi all, > > I’m wondering about which apps people are using for > determining shading and sun position. > > Thx > Jay > > Peltz Power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > On Sep 3, 2018 9:22 AM, "Jay" > wrote: > > Hi all, > > I’m wondering about which apps people are using for > determining shading and sun position. > > Thx > Jay > > Peltz Power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com Mon Sep 3 15:40:47 2018 From: rick at solshineenergyalternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 15:40:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phone/ sun position apps In-Reply-To: <80560f6c-b89e-d78b-c929-c0971b6be452@solarray.com> References: <47B7953D-B97F-4FFD-99F2-11B0FB2EE6C0@gmail.com> <80560f6c-b89e-d78b-c929-c0971b6be452@solarray.com> Message-ID: <0DD3B0A1-12D8-4F9B-9C8B-C52667270441@solshineenergyalternatives.com> Jay, I’ve been using the Sunseeker app in conjunction with the Solar Pathfinder. The former is useful for when the Pathfinder isn’t handy. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Sep 3, 2018, at 3:29 PM, Ray wrote: > > HI Ken; > > Don't tell me, but you probably still have a copy of The Passive Solar Energy Book on your shelves, with those nice old solar siting charts? > Those of us lucky enough to have been in the business for decades have been confronted with Ken's little considered fact: Trees grow. I went back to a site I had done in '99, and was amazed I was so stupid to put the array in the shade of a 30 ft tree. That must have been before I got my Solar Pathfinder, I thought......Then I started looking at the tree and my old pics of the site, and realized that tree was only about 5 ft tall, when I did the system. As Homer Simpson says: " Douhh! " > > On the flip side, beetle kill in the Southwest has had the opposite effect; arrays that were on tall poles to get above the tree shading are now rather ridiculous looking sitting out by themselves in the now large clearing. > > While I certainly didn't go into solar to cut down trees, sometimes it needs to happen along with clearing trees close to the house for fire danger. I do my best to get folks to move the array to save the big beauties. (yea, I'm a tree hugger at heart) Higher voltage arrays courtesy of MPPT controllers help in that regard, too. > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 >> On 9/3/18 12:26 PM, Ken Schaal wrote: >> I started siting SHW systems in 1976. >> Studied sun angle chart persistently, until i had a good sense of how the sun moves for our area in central Virginia. >> We also have lots of trees...fast growing, tall trees ! >> So while precision shading analysis is a valuable tool, the info is static. >> Our sites are rarely static ! >> The biggest issue here is getting clients to manage their trees. >> I learned this even before I started installing SHW, when I first built a sunroom on the south side of my house in 1974. >> Many trees have grown, and then become firewood, since then. >> When the pv system was installed, in 2008, several more trees on the east and west were removed.Fortunately there were now taller trees to the NE and NW to shade house in summer. Exterior movable shading, sunscreen, on south windows, combined with interior insulating shades, allowing the collectors and pv panels to be in full sun, while the house is protected from unwanted spring, summer, fall solar gain. >> Being a full service solar contractor requires a long term perspective in our climate. And most importantly, clients willing and able to manage their trees ! >> It has been my observation that folks that love solar, hate to cut trees, even tho trees, in our climate, grow faster now due to climate change. >> >> Ken Schaal >> CommonWealthSolar.com >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Mon, Sep 3, 2018, 12:45 PM Dan Fink wrote: >>> I use Solar Shading from Comoving Magnetics on Android. I had my class test it versus the Solar Pathfinder and Solmetric Suneye, and our shading readings were within 6-8%. >>> >>> The Solmetric Sunviewer app is also handy. I have never tried their iPV app because of the price, and because Solar Shades is working fine for me. >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute >>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: >>> ~ PV Installation Professional >>> ~ Small Wind Installer >>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy >>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ >>> NABCEP PV Associate >>> >>> 970.672.4342 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 10:28 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: >>>> I still use the sun eye and solmetric, noting works as well as being on site, solmetric had an app way back when that was on a subcription bases >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>>> On Mon, Sep 3, 2018, 9:22 AM Jay wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I’m wondering about which apps people are using for determining shading and sun position. >>>>> >>>>> Thx >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> Peltz Power. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sep 3, 2018 9:22 AM, "Jay" wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I’m wondering about which apps people are using for determining shading and sun position. >>>> >>>> Thx >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> Peltz Power. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Sep 3 17:24:20 2018 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2018 14:24:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phone/ sun position apps In-Reply-To: References: <47B7953D-B97F-4FFD-99F2-11B0FB2EE6C0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5B8DA684.5080909@villagepowerdesign.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Sep 3 13:31:17 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 10:31:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phone/ sun position apps In-Reply-To: <47B7953D-B97F-4FFD-99F2-11B0FB2EE6C0@gmail.com> References: <47B7953D-B97F-4FFD-99F2-11B0FB2EE6C0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <092F1A68-1AD3-4B9E-B9E8-E43E3FDC2572@millersolar.com> Sun seeker provides a good approximation. If I need hard numbers I use a Pathfinder and a custom Excel sheet. > On Sep 3, 2018, at 8:13 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all, > > I’m wondering about which apps people are using for determining shading and sun position. > > Thx > Jay > > Peltz Power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:49:47 2018 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 11:49:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] JLM Phazr In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They were located right in our backyard (Sacramento) so we were very excited to have something new to abuse. From all the articles I've read, they are restructuring pending a cash infusion (investors) . . It seemed like a decent idea, heck we proved Micro inverters and power optimizers could stand the abuse of a roof top install, why not LFP? . . JLM appears to be fading fast. On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 12:11 PM Rebekah Hren wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > Does anyone know if JLM > > is still around/ products available? > > https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/jlm-energy-lays-off-workforce-to-seek-funding > > It sounds like not really, I wasn't at all convinced batteries on the roof > were a good idea, but just curious if anyone has any insight, or used their > products? > > Thanks! > Rebekah > > > > -- > Tel: 336.266.8800 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > NC Licensed Electrical Contractor > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Wed Sep 5 16:41:19 2018 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 14:41:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers Message-ID: <00a201d44558$cd82d890$688889b0$@OasisMontana.com> Dear people: What trackers are y’all using nowadays? I have a customer (with a great site) who’s insisting on a pair. We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. Thanks for the input! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 17:19:27 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 14:19:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: <00a201d44558$cd82d890$688889b0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <00a201d44558$cd82d890$688889b0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Chris/Wrenches Been happy with Zoomworks, array tech has been an issues with replacement parts Jerry On Wed, Sep 5, 2018, 1:45 PM wrote: > Dear people: > > > > What trackers are y’all using nowadays? I have a customer (with a great > site) who’s insisting on a pair. We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array > Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. > > > > Thanks for the input! > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Sep 5 17:00:13 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 14:00:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: <00a201d44558$cd82d890$688889b0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <00a201d44558$cd82d890$688889b0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: I have been waiting for a small 6" pole tracker like the AZ125 that array tek made. I could get 2KW on it. They only make the 8" (too much work) and HZLA that I use quite a bit. --Dave On Wed, 5 Sep 2018 14:41:19 -0600, wrote: Dear people: What trackers are y'all using nowadays? I have a customer (with a great site) who's insisting on a pair. We've sold Zomeworks and Array Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. Thanks for the input! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com [1] -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [3] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://www.oasismontana.com [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 17:20:57 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 14:20:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mod waveform LED dimmer Message-ID: <295295AD-1B4D-48EF-AFBC-E83F564B8065@gmail.com> HI All, I’m asking the group for a very obscure piece of information. I have someone with an very old Trace 2012 mod wave form inverter and wants to use their new LED bulbs with a dimmer Does anyone know of any LED/dimmer combos that will work? thanks in advance jay peltz power From ray at solarray.com Wed Sep 5 19:44:06 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 17:44:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mod waveform LED dimmer In-Reply-To: <295295AD-1B4D-48EF-AFBC-E83F564B8065@gmail.com> References: <295295AD-1B4D-48EF-AFBC-E83F564B8065@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9d49ae1a-5fba-71df-35f4-a9657aebec3d@solarray.com> Sorry I can't help with specific models, but my guess is that most dimmers will work.  They will probably buzz annoyingly due to the mod sine, and probably die a relatively earlier death from the extra heat.  That being said they could last several years, and reduce total load.  Let us know what you find out.  I'd probably just grab a couple from the local supply and play with them.  I do quite a bit of Mad scientist work here. As the ancients taught us: /"Better to let the smoke out in private, than be embarrassed a thousand fold in the field"./ Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/5/18 3:20 PM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’m asking the group for a very obscure piece of information. > > I have someone with an very old Trace 2012 mod wave form inverter and wants to use their new LED bulbs with a dimmer > > Does anyone know of any LED/dimmer combos that will work? > > thanks in advance > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Wed Sep 5 19:53:54 2018 From: solar1online at charter.net (solar1online at charter.net) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 18:53:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers Message-ID: Chris,I thought since solar PV prices have come down (understatement), is it not more cost effective to buy more modules than a tracker? Are there scenarios that the above would not ring true? (As I remember, off grid water pumping for livestock ponds may still be an exception as also, limited space.) Please advise. Thanks,Bill LoeschSolar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 -----------------------------------------From: chris at OasisMontana.com To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Wednesday September 5 2018 3:45:25PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers * Dear people: What trackers are y’all using nowadays? I have a customer (with a great site) who’s insisting on a pair. We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. Thanks for the input! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com [1] Links: ------ [1] http://www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce4power at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 20:38:29 2018 From: bruce4power at gmail.com (Bruce Geddes) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 12:38:29 +1200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mod waveform LED dimmer In-Reply-To: <295295AD-1B4D-48EF-AFBC-E83F564B8065@gmail.com> References: <295295AD-1B4D-48EF-AFBC-E83F564B8065@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002701d44579$f07bc6b0$d1735410$@gmail.com> I would doubt that dimmers will work as they look for leading or trailing edges to power switch. With Mod square waves there is just the sudden rise to full voltage so nothing to obtain a switching point. It is for this reason some cordless device chargers struggle to charge. Cheers, Bruce Geddes PowerOn -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2018 9:21 a.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] mod waveform LED dimmer HI All, I’m asking the group for a very obscure piece of information. I have someone with an very old Trace 2012 mod wave form inverter and wants to use their new LED bulbs with a dimmer Does anyone know of any LED/dimmer combos that will work? thanks in advance jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Sep 5 20:15:08 2018 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (Howard Arey) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 19:15:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <079101d44576$ac3f6400$04be2c00$@solarcentex.com> 1. Limited space 2. Utility policy cap on DC capacity installed 3. Early adopters who value efficiency I have found dual-axis trackers to be more cost effective than the conventional wisdom grants. We use Sun Action Trackers from San Antonio. Examples at my website. Howard “Scot” Arey 254-300-1228 scot.arey at solarcentex.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of solar1online at charter.net Sent: Wednesday, September 5, 2018 6:54 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trackers Chris, I thought since solar PV prices have come down (understatement), is it not more cost effective to buy more modules than a tracker? Are there scenarios that the above would not ring true? (As I remember, off grid water pumping for livestock ponds may still be an exception as also, limited space.) Please advise. Thanks, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 ----------------------------------------- From: chris at OasisMontana.com To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Wednesday September 5 2018 3:45:25PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers Dear people: What trackers are y’all using nowadays? I have a customer (with a great site) who’s insisting on a pair. We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. Thanks for the input! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 48500 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Wed Sep 5 21:01:37 2018 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 18:01:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mod waveform LED dimmer In-Reply-To: <002701d44579$f07bc6b0$d1735410$@gmail.com> References: <295295AD-1B4D-48EF-AFBC-E83F564B8065@gmail.com> <002701d44579$f07bc6b0$d1735410$@gmail.com> Message-ID: If a regular dimmer doesn't work, which because of the sharp edges I would not expect to work very well, you could try a variac. boB On 9/5/2018 5:38 PM, Bruce Geddes wrote: > I would doubt that dimmers will work as they look for leading or trailing edges to power switch. With Mod square waves there is just the sudden rise to full voltage so nothing to obtain a switching point. It is for this reason some cordless device chargers struggle to charge. > Cheers, > Bruce Geddes > PowerOn > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay > Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2018 9:21 a.m. > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] mod waveform LED dimmer > > HI All, > > I’m asking the group for a very obscure piece of information. > > I have someone with an very old Trace 2012 mod wave form inverter and wants to use their new LED bulbs with a dimmer > > Does anyone know of any LED/dimmer combos that will work? > > thanks in advance > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 19:58:01 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 16:58:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mod waveform LED dimmer In-Reply-To: <9d49ae1a-5fba-71df-35f4-a9657aebec3d@solarray.com> References: <295295AD-1B4D-48EF-AFBC-E83F564B8065@gmail.com> <9d49ae1a-5fba-71df-35f4-a9657aebec3d@solarray.com> Message-ID: <259DFAC7-9805-4F20-BF50-F57B84A486CA@gmail.com> HI Ray, Yea thats a good assumption based on CFL’s. But LED are different. What happens is that the LEDs will dim a small amount and then ( there are 4 LED lights in a light fixture) one will turn off for a short while ( few seconds) then it’ll come back on and another will go off and on and on it goes. I’ve see this on other systems from a generator with poor quality. Its pretty odd and totally random. The options for this customer are going back to incandescent, or maybe there is a LED/Dimmer combo out there that works. And as to trying out others, yea thought of that but they are expensive and could be a big rabbit hole. thanks jay > On Sep 5, 2018, at 4:44 PM, Ray wrote: > > Sorry I can't help with specific models, but my guess is that most dimmers will work. They will probably buzz annoyingly due to the mod sine, and probably die a relatively earlier death from the extra heat. That being said they could last several years, and reduce total load. Let us know what you find out. I'd probably just grab a couple from the local supply and play with them. I do quite a bit of Mad scientist work here. > As the ancients taught us: "Better to let the smoke out in private, than be embarrassed a thousand fold in the field". > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 9/5/18 3:20 PM, jay wrote: >> HI All, >> >> I’m asking the group for a very obscure piece of information. >> >> I have someone with an very old Trace 2012 mod wave form inverter and wants to use their new LED bulbs with a dimmer >> >> Does anyone know of any LED/dimmer combos that will work? >> >> thanks in advance >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Sep 5 20:19:50 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2018 17:19:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1ff9f244ee857e17b59dda8b588de71a@127.0.0.1> Bill, If you lived offgrid and had to run a heatpump for cooling in the desert, you would see that either virtual tracking ar a tracker would give you the long hours of solar power to minimize battery use. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 05 Sep 2018 18:53:54 -0500, solar1online at charter.net wrote: Chris, I thought since solar PV prices have come down (understatement), is it not more cost effective to buy more modules than a tracker? Are there scenarios that the above would not ring true? (As I remember, off grid water pumping for livestock ponds may still be an exception as also, limited space.) Please advise. Thanks, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 ----------------------------------------- From: chris at OasisMontana.com To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Wednesday September 5 2018 3:45:25PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers Dear people: What trackers are y'all using nowadays? I have a customer (with a great site) who's insisting on a pair. We've sold Zomeworks and Array Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. Thanks for the input! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com [3] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Sep 5 20:13:55 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 20:13:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: <00a201d44558$cd82d890$688889b0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <00a201d44558$cd82d890$688889b0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <00ec01d44576$80aa5110$81fef330$@glbcc.com> There are a lot of All Earth trackers going up in these parts. Of course they are made just North of here, so that may be part of it. Dual axis active tracker – seem to be well made and pretty reliable. https://www.allearthrenewables.com/ -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of chris at OasisMontana.com Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2018 4:41 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers Dear people: What trackers are y’all using nowadays? I have a customer (with a great site) who’s insisting on a pair. We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. Thanks for the input! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Sep 5 23:37:46 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 21:37:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6eb7816f-c95e-aca9-2935-00572c6b2c34@sindelarsolar.com> Bill, No, I'm with you on this.Given the the greatest boost (~+/- 30%) of daily tracking is during the summer and most stand-alone applications are winter-peak (where tracking adds at best 10-15%), seasonal water pumping is about the only time when small-scale tracking is justified over simply adding array. Any pumping where the source is slow enough that the length of the day becomes an important factor, like drip irrigation or a very low yield well or spring, is worth looking into. But that's about it in my experience. Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 9/5/2018 5:53 PM, solar1online at charter.net wrote: > Chris, > I thought since solar PV prices have come down (understatement), is it > not more cost effective to buy more modules than a tracker? Are there > scenarios that the above would not ring true? (As I remember, off grid > water pumping for livestock ponds may still be an exception as also, > limited space.) Please advise. > Thanks, > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > 314 631 1094 > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: chris at OasisMontana.com > Sent: Wednesday September 5 2018 3:45:25PM > > Dear people: > > What trackers are y’all using nowadays?I have a customer (with a great > site) who’s insisting on a pair.We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array > Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. > > Thanks for the input! > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 00:37:09 2018 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 22:37:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: <6eb7816f-c95e-aca9-2935-00572c6b2c34@sindelarsolar.com> References: <6eb7816f-c95e-aca9-2935-00572c6b2c34@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: These guys are new but I've heard good things: http://www.sulasindustries.com/ *Regards, * *Andrew Truitt | DRV * www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:38 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Bill, > > No, I'm with you on this.Given the the greatest boost (~+/- 30%) of daily > tracking is during the summer and most stand-alone applications are > winter-peak (where tracking adds at best 10-15%), seasonal water pumping is > about the only time when small-scale tracking is justified over simply > adding array. Any pumping where the source is slow enough that the length > of the day becomes an important factor, like drip irrigation or a very low > yield well or spring, is worth looking into. But that's about it in my > experience. > > Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > On 9/5/2018 5:53 PM, solar1online at charter.net wrote: > > Chris, > I thought since solar PV prices have come down (understatement), is it not > more cost effective to buy more modules than a tracker? Are there scenarios > that the above would not ring true? (As I remember, off grid water pumping > for livestock ponds may still be an exception as also, limited space.) > Please advise. > Thanks, > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > 314 631 1094 > > ---------------------------------------- > From: chris at OasisMontana.com > Sent: Wednesday September 5 2018 3:45:25PM > > Dear people: > > What trackers are y’all using nowadays? I have a customer (with a great > site) who’s insisting on a pair. We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array > Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. > > Thanks for the input! > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Sep 6 10:26:30 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 10:26:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: References: <6eb7816f-c95e-aca9-2935-00572c6b2c34@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: To All, Seen it first hand with existing Northeast offgrid clients that had old pole mounts with lots of generator usage during the winter months. Added a single 12 module DAT and generator usage was down to as little as twice in the entire winter. Others usage was down to just a handful of times required from genny. They are great at shedding snow. Bottom line is generator usage was cut in most cases by 75% or better. I'm a believer here in upstate NY. Christopher Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:37 AM, Andrew Truitt wrote: > > These guys are new but I've heard good things: http://www. > sulasindustries.com/ > > > *Regards, * > > *Andrew Truitt | DRV * > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > > > "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion > to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor > safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could > ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" > > ~William McDonough > > > On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:38 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote: > >> Bill, >> >> No, I'm with you on this.Given the the greatest boost (~+/- 30%) of daily >> tracking is during the summer and most stand-alone applications are >> winter-peak (where tracking adds at best 10-15%), seasonal water pumping is >> about the only time when small-scale tracking is justified over simply >> adding array. Any pumping where the source is slow enough that the length >> of the day becomes an important factor, like drip irrigation or a very low >> yield well or spring, is worth looking into. But that's about it in my >> experience. >> >> Allan >> >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> On 9/5/2018 5:53 PM, solar1online at charter.net wrote: >> >> Chris, >> I thought since solar PV prices have come down (understatement), is it >> not more cost effective to buy more modules than a tracker? Are there >> scenarios that the above would not ring true? (As I remember, off grid >> water pumping for livestock ponds may still be an exception as also, >> limited space.) Please advise. >> Thanks, >> Bill Loesch >> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar >> 314 631 1094 >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> From: chris at OasisMontana.com >> Sent: Wednesday September 5 2018 3:45:25PM >> >> Dear people: >> >> What trackers are y’all using nowadays? I have a customer (with a great >> site) who’s insisting on a pair. We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array >> Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. >> >> Thanks for the input! >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >> >> 406-777-4309 fax >> >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. >> org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 10:43:33 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 07:43:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: References: <6eb7816f-c95e-aca9-2935-00572c6b2c34@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Bill, Wrenches In most cases space is always an issue, sure modules prices have dropped but top of pole trackers have a place along with large ground mount tracking systems. It will come down to economics of the ROI, 20 to 35% more output for 10% more cost, yes yhere is an increased in maintaince cost. Jerry On Sep 6, 2018 7:26 AM, "Chris Schaefer" wrote: To All, Seen it first hand with existing Northeast offgrid clients that had old pole mounts with lots of generator usage during the winter months. Added a single 12 module DAT and generator usage was down to as little as twice in the entire winter. Others usage was down to just a handful of times required from genny. They are great at shedding snow. Bottom line is generator usage was cut in most cases by 75% or better. I'm a believer here in upstate NY. Christopher Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:37 AM, Andrew Truitt wrote: > > These guys are new but I've heard good things: > http://www.sulasindustries.com/ > > > *Regards, * > > *Andrew Truitt | DRV * > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > > > "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion > to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor > safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could > ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" > > ~William McDonough > > > On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:38 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote: > >> Bill, >> >> No, I'm with you on this.Given the the greatest boost (~+/- 30%) of daily >> tracking is during the summer and most stand-alone applications are >> winter-peak (where tracking adds at best 10-15%), seasonal water pumping is >> about the only time when small-scale tracking is justified over simply >> adding array. Any pumping where the source is slow enough that the length >> of the day becomes an important factor, like drip irrigation or a very low >> yield well or spring, is worth looking into. But that's about it in my >> experience. >> >> Allan >> >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> On 9/5/2018 5:53 PM, solar1online at charter.net wrote: >> >> Chris, >> I thought since solar PV prices have come down (understatement), is it >> not more cost effective to buy more modules than a tracker? Are there >> scenarios that the above would not ring true? (As I remember, off grid >> water pumping for livestock ponds may still be an exception as also, >> limited space.) Please advise. >> Thanks, >> Bill Loesch >> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar >> 314 631 1094 >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> From: chris at OasisMontana.com >> Sent: Wednesday September 5 2018 3:45:25PM >> >> Dear people: >> >> What trackers are y’all using nowadays? I have a customer (with a great >> site) who’s insisting on a pair. We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array >> Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. >> >> Thanks for the input! >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >> >> 406-777-4309 fax >> >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Sep 6 11:18:29 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 09:18:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers Message-ID: <007101d445f4$dee67910$9cb36b30$@solarwork.com> I second this observation. I now live again off grid in a narrow N-S canyon in south central Idaho. Having limited ground space [thanks to county regs] & not wanting roof mounted arrays to have to clear snow from, trackers VS. fix top of pole mounts enhance my output & they reduced the # of modules required for my homes projected load design. * 6400 watts rated output on 2 Array Tech tracking arrays. Fixed would have required 3 arrays & 6-8 more modules. Trackers are programed to full vertical in winter to shed overnight snow dumps, this saves time & effort in the morning when it’s a Powder day! Can’t miss those Powder mornings. * 5400 watts per hour in the summer when hot. * Up to 8400 watts per hour on a cold winter day. Exactly what I needed 31+% additional output with a 4-hour window of sun at New Year’s Day. So far, my generator has never started… *A repeat from a previous RE conversation years ago, I had to see for myself &: Last house in CO, I had [6] 250-watt mod on a tracker & [6] 250-watt mod on a fixed roof array. The tracker consistently outproduced the fixed array by 32% averaged over the year. Trackers have their place and advantages. That said, with todays $/watt o modules if you have the space fixed is a more cost-effective way to proceed. Signed - A 25-year tracker advocate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2018 8:27 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trackers To All, Seen it first hand with existing Northeast offgrid clients that had old pole mounts with lots of generator usage during the winter months. Added a single 12 module DAT and generator usage was down to as little as twice in the entire winter. Others usage was down to just a handful of times required from genny. They are great at shedding snow. Bottom line is generator usage was cut in most cases by 75% or better. I'm a believer here in upstate NY. Christopher Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:37 AM, Andrew Truitt > wrote: These guys are new but I've heard good things: http://www.sulasindustries.com/ Regards, Andrew Truitt | DRV www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:38 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote: Bill, No, I'm with you on this.Given the the greatest boost (~+/- 30%) of daily tracking is during the summer and most stand-alone applications are winter-peak (where tracking adds at best 10-15%), seasonal water pumping is about the only time when small-scale tracking is justified over simply adding array. Any pumping where the source is slow enough that the length of the day becomes an important factor, like drip irrigation or a very low yield well or spring, is worth looking into. But that's about it in my experience. Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 9/5/2018 5:53 PM, solar1online at charter.net wrote: Chris, I thought since solar PV prices have come down (understatement), is it not more cost effective to buy more modules than a tracker? Are there scenarios that the above would not ring true? (As I remember, off grid water pumping for livestock ponds may still be an exception as also, limited space.) Please advise. Thanks, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 ---------------------------------------- From: chris at OasisMontana.com Sent: Wednesday September 5 2018 3:45:25PM Dear people: What trackers are y’all using nowadays? I have a customer (with a great site) who’s insisting on a pair. We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. Thanks for the input! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Sep 6 11:30:23 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 09:30:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: <6eb7816f-c95e-aca9-2935-00572c6b2c34@sindelarsolar.com> References: <6eb7816f-c95e-aca9-2935-00572c6b2c34@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I agree with Bill & Allan on this,  I worked on my first Zomeworks tracker in '89. Trackers add quite a bit of cost and complication, and if they have a failure, they can actually be worse than a fixed array.  The Array Tech trackers would table top in failure mode, which is not good in the winter in snow country. Meanwhile Zomeworks had to be tied in place to not blow around in the wind and often be manually reset from a western tilt on the following morning.  Just check most old Zomeworks systems, they usually have a rope tied back to the pole because they lost their Freon. Besides water pumping, another appropriate use of tracking is on large GT systems, that benefit from TOU rates.  The late afternoon tracking can help utilities meet the summertime peak air conditioning loads. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/5/18 9:37 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Bill, > > No, I'm with you on this.Given the the greatest boost (~+/- 30%) of > daily tracking is during the summer and most stand-alone applications > are winter-peak (where tracking adds at best 10-15%), seasonal water > pumping is about the only time when small-scale tracking is justified > over simply adding array. Any pumping where the source is slow enough > that the length of the day becomes an important factor, like drip > irrigation or a very low yield well or spring, is worth looking into. > But that's about it in my experience. > > Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > On 9/5/2018 5:53 PM, solar1online at charter.net wrote: >> Chris, >> I thought since solar PV prices have come down (understatement), is >> it not more cost effective to buy more modules than a tracker? Are >> there scenarios that the above would not ring true? (As I remember, >> off grid water pumping for livestock ponds may still be an exception >> as also, limited space.) Please advise. >> Thanks, >> Bill Loesch >> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar >> 314 631 1094 >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> From: chris at OasisMontana.com >> Sent: Wednesday September 5 2018 3:45:25PM >> >> Dear people: >> >> What trackers are y’all using nowadays?I have a customer (with a >> great site) who’s insisting on a pair.We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array >> Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. >> >> Thanks for the input! >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >> >> 406-777-4309 fax >> >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Sep 6 12:12:58 2018 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 10:12:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: <007101d445f4$dee67910$9cb36b30$@solarwork.com> References: <007101d445f4$dee67910$9cb36b30$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <01f701d445fc$7afcf3e0$70f6dba0$@OasisMontana.com> Hi Folks: I appreciate the input but I am looking for TYPES of trackers that you may be selling (and yes, I told him about adding more & cheaper solar modules than investing in a tracker, but it’s the customer’s decision). Zomeworks is not what the client wants; I would prefer dual axis; the customer’s in north central CA with a good resource. I say go with Array Technologies but I would think there must be something new and improved by now. --Chris Daum/Oasis Montana From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Thursday, September 6, 2018 9:18 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers I second this observation. I now live again off grid in a narrow N-S canyon in south central Idaho. Having limited ground space [thanks to county regs] & not wanting roof mounted arrays to have to clear snow from, trackers VS. fix top of pole mounts enhance my output & they reduced the # of modules required for my homes projected load design. * 6400 watts rated output on 2 Array Tech tracking arrays. Fixed would have required 3 arrays & 6-8 more modules. Trackers are programed to full vertical in winter to shed overnight snow dumps, this saves time & effort in the morning when it’s a Powder day! Can’t miss those Powder mornings. * 5400 watts per hour in the summer when hot. * Up to 8400 watts per hour on a cold winter day. Exactly what I needed 31+% additional output with a 4-hour window of sun at New Year’s Day. So far, my generator has never started… *A repeat from a previous RE conversation years ago, I had to see for myself &: Last house in CO, I had [6] 250-watt mod on a tracker & [6] 250-watt mod on a fixed roof array. The tracker consistently outproduced the fixed array by 32% averaged over the year. Trackers have their place and advantages. That said, with todays $/watt o modules if you have the space fixed is a more cost-effective way to proceed. Signed - A 25-year tracker advocate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2018 8:27 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trackers To All, Seen it first hand with existing Northeast offgrid clients that had old pole mounts with lots of generator usage during the winter months. Added a single 12 module DAT and generator usage was down to as little as twice in the entire winter. Others usage was down to just a handful of times required from genny. They are great at shedding snow. Bottom line is generator usage was cut in most cases by 75% or better. I'm a believer here in upstate NY. Christopher Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:37 AM, Andrew Truitt > wrote: These guys are new but I've heard good things: http://www.sulasindustries.com/ Regards, Andrew Truitt | DRV www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:38 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote: Bill, No, I'm with you on this.Given the the greatest boost (~+/- 30%) of daily tracking is during the summer and most stand-alone applications are winter-peak (where tracking adds at best 10-15%), seasonal water pumping is about the only time when small-scale tracking is justified over simply adding array. Any pumping where the source is slow enough that the length of the day becomes an important factor, like drip irrigation or a very low yield well or spring, is worth looking into. But that's about it in my experience. Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell On 9/5/2018 5:53 PM, solar1online at charter.net wrote: Chris, I thought since solar PV prices have come down (understatement), is it not more cost effective to buy more modules than a tracker? Are there scenarios that the above would not ring true? (As I remember, off grid water pumping for livestock ponds may still be an exception as also, limited space.) Please advise. Thanks, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 ---------------------------------------- From: chris at OasisMontana.com Sent: Wednesday September 5 2018 3:45:25PM Dear people: What trackers are y’all using nowadays? I have a customer (with a great site) who’s insisting on a pair. We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. Thanks for the input! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Sep 6 16:13:24 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 16:13:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: <01f701d445fc$7afcf3e0$70f6dba0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <007101d445f4$dee67910$9cb36b30$@solarwork.com> <01f701d445fc$7afcf3e0$70f6dba0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Chris, I've been using both All Earth Renewables (AER) and Array Tech. I really like AER but the smallest they make is a 20 module rack. I use their 24 module (60 cell) rack with a 320 to 335 watt module in my offgrid projects. One of the reasons I like AER is because of the GPS tracking, no sensor to block with snow. It is a very durable unit. Prior to AER I used Array Tech. They have been sold off from wattsun and have made some upgrades with their linear actuators but haven't installed a new unit since switching to AER 4 years ago. The AT holds 12 60 cell modules. Feel free to call if you'd like some more detail. Christopher 585-748-1870 On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:12 PM, wrote: > Hi Folks: I appreciate the input but I am looking for TYPES of trackers > that you may be selling (and yes, I told him about adding more & cheaper > solar modules than investing in a tracker, but it’s the customer’s > decision). Zomeworks is not what the client wants; I would prefer dual > axis; the customer’s in north central CA with a good resource. I say go > with Array Technologies but I would think there must be something new and > improved by now. > > > > --Chris Daum/Oasis Montana > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Dana > *Sent:* Thursday, September 6, 2018 9:18 AM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Trackers > > > > I second this observation. > > > > I now live again off grid in a narrow N-S canyon in south central Idaho. > Having limited ground space [thanks to county regs] & not wanting roof > mounted arrays to have to clear snow from, trackers VS. fix top of pole > mounts enhance my output & they reduced the # of modules required for my > homes projected load design. > > > > - 6400 watts rated output on 2 Array Tech tracking arrays. Fixed would > have required 3 arrays & 6-8 more modules. Trackers are programed to full > vertical in winter to shed overnight snow dumps, this saves time & effort > in the morning when it’s a Powder day! Can’t miss those Powder mornings. > - 5400 watts per hour in the summer when hot. > - Up to 8400 watts per hour on a cold winter day. Exactly what I > needed 31+% additional output with a 4-hour window of sun at New Year’s > Day. So far, my generator has never started… > > > > *A repeat from a previous RE conversation years ago, I had to see for > myself &: > > Last house in CO, I had [6] 250-watt mod on a tracker & [6] 250-watt mod > on a fixed roof array. > > The tracker consistently outproduced the fixed array by 32% averaged over > the year. > > > > Trackers have their place and advantages. That said, with todays $/watt o > modules if you have the space fixed is a more cost-effective way to proceed. > > > > Signed - A 25-year tracker advocate. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer > *Sent:* Thursday, September 06, 2018 8:27 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Trackers > > > > To All, > > > > Seen it first hand with existing Northeast offgrid clients that had old > pole mounts with lots of generator usage during the winter months. Added a > single 12 module DAT and generator usage was down to as little as twice in > the entire winter. Others usage was down to just a handful of times > required from genny. They are great at shedding snow. Bottom line is > generator usage was cut in most cases by 75% or better. I'm a believer here > in upstate NY. > > > > Christopher > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:37 AM, Andrew Truitt wrote: > > > > These guys are new but I've heard good things: http://www. > sulasindustries.com/ > > > > > *Regards, * > > > > *Andrew Truitt | DRV * > > www.dr.ventures > > d: 202.486.7507 > > > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > > > > > > "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion > to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor > safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could > ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" > > ~William McDonough > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:38 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote: > > Bill, > > No, I'm with you on this.Given the the greatest boost (~+/- 30%) of daily > tracking is during the summer and most stand-alone applications are > winter-peak (where tracking adds at best 10-15%), seasonal water pumping is > about the only time when small-scale tracking is justified over simply > adding array. Any pumping where the source is slow enough that the length > of the day becomes an important factor, like drip irrigation or a very low > yield well or spring, is worth looking into. But that's about it in my > experience. > > Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > On 9/5/2018 5:53 PM, solar1online at charter.net wrote: > > Chris, > > I thought since solar PV prices have come down (understatement), is it not > more cost effective to buy more modules than a tracker? Are there scenarios > that the above would not ring true? (As I remember, off grid water pumping > for livestock ponds may still be an exception as also, limited space.) > Please advise. > > Thanks, > > Bill Loesch > > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > > 314 631 1094 > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: chris at OasisMontana.com > Sent: Wednesday September 5 2018 3:45:25PM > > Dear people: > > What trackers are y’all using nowadays? I have a customer (with a great > site) who’s insisting on a pair. We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array > Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. > > Thanks for the input! > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Thu Sep 6 16:26:17 2018 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 20:26:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: <01f701d445fc$7afcf3e0$70f6dba0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <007101d445f4$dee67910$9cb36b30$@solarwork.com> <01f701d445fc$7afcf3e0$70f6dba0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <1256237117.145747.1536265577591@mail.yahoo.com> Chris-- We installed two 24-module AllEarth dual-axis trackers at the request of a homeowner two years ago--"I like companies that are from Vermont."inspite of a higher cost as compared to a ground mount equivalent w Krinner groundscrews. You can buy either the tracker alone or complete kits. The 24-module tracker is about $10,000. The concrete base was fairly easy to install. I think the hole was 4x4x4 with rebar crosshatch. The frame is assembled on the ground and lifted to the pole (you need about a18-foot lift). Our mini excavator was barely tall enough. We did the frame layout and assembly on the excavator trailer and it worked well. If you go to Vermont, they have a free two-day training program where you assemble a tracker. One of the trackers had an early issue with a stuck hydraulic valve. Warranty service was prompt and knowledgeable and we haven't had issues since. We did have to upsize the Fronius inverters. My design mistake. I typically oversize the array to the inverter, but in the spring, the arrays were always clipping. Folks do like to watch the slow dance of the modules.  Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com From: "chris at OasisMontana.com" To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Thursday, September 6, 2018 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trackers #yiv8033290025 #yiv8033290025 -- _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Wingdings;panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Webdings;panose-1:5 3 1 2 1 5 9 6 7 3;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {panose-1:2 11 5 2 2 2 2 2 2 4;}#yiv8033290025 #yiv8033290025 p.yiv8033290025MsoNormal, #yiv8033290025 li.yiv8033290025MsoNormal, #yiv8033290025 div.yiv8033290025MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8033290025 a:link, #yiv8033290025 span.yiv8033290025MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8033290025 a:visited, #yiv8033290025 span.yiv8033290025MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8033290025 pre {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv8033290025 p.yiv8033290025MsoListParagraph, #yiv8033290025 li.yiv8033290025MsoListParagraph, #yiv8033290025 div.yiv8033290025MsoListParagraph {margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8033290025 span.yiv8033290025HTMLPreformattedChar {font-family:Consolas;}#yiv8033290025 p.yiv8033290025msonormal0, #yiv8033290025 li.yiv8033290025msonormal0, #yiv8033290025 div.yiv8033290025msonormal0 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8033290025 span.yiv8033290025m-4951966347317992251m204016623455697006grame {}#yiv8033290025 span.yiv8033290025m-4951966347317992251m204016623455697006spelle {}#yiv8033290025 span.yiv8033290025EmailStyle23 {font-family:sans-serif;color:black;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;text-decoration:none;}#yiv8033290025 span.yiv8033290025EmailStyle26 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;text-decoration:none;text-decoration:none;}#yiv8033290025 span.yiv8033290025SpellE {}#yiv8033290025 .yiv8033290025MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv8033290025 div.yiv8033290025WordSection1 {}#yiv8033290025 _filtered #yiv8033290025 {} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Symbol;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Symbol;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Symbol;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Symbol;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Symbol;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Symbol;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Symbol;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Symbol;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Symbol;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Symbol;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Wingdings;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Symbol;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Wingdings;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Symbol;} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {} _filtered #yiv8033290025 {font-family:Wingdings;}#yiv8033290025 ol {margin-bottom:0in;}#yiv8033290025 ul {margin-bottom:0in;}#yiv8033290025 Hi Folks:  I appreciate the input but I am looking for TYPES of trackers that you may be selling (and yes, I told him about adding more & cheaper solar modules than investing in a tracker, but it’s the customer’s decision).  Zomeworks is not what the client wants; I would prefer dual axis; the customer’s in north central CA with a good resource.  I say go with Array Technologies but I would think there must be something new and improved by now.  --Chris Daum/Oasis Montana    From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Thursday, September 6, 2018 9:18 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers  I second this observation.  I now live again off grid in a narrow N-S canyon in south central Idaho. Having limited ground space [thanks to county regs] & not wanting roof mounted arrays to have to clear snow from, trackers VS. fix top of pole mounts enhance my output & they reduced the # of modules required for my homes projected load design.   - 6400 watts rated output on 2 Array Tech tracking arrays. Fixed would have required 3 arrays & 6-8 more modules. Trackers are programed to full vertical in winter to shed overnight snow dumps, this saves time & effort in the morning when it’s a Powder day! Can’t miss those Powder mornings. - 5400 watts per hour in the summer when hot. - Up to 8400 watts per hour on a cold winter day. Exactly what I needed 31+% additional output with a 4-hour window of sun at New Year’s Day. So far, my generator has never started…  *A repeat from a previous RE conversation years ago, I had to see for myself &:Last house in CO, I had [6] 250-watt mod on a tracker & [6] 250-watt mod on a fixed roof array.The tracker consistently outproduced the fixed array by 32% averaged over the year.  Trackers have their place and advantages. That said, with todays $/watt o modules if you have the space fixed is a more cost-effective way to proceed.  Signed - A 25-year tracker advocate.  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.comIdaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374NABCEP # 051112-136                       www.solarwork.biz"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  P Please consider the environment before printing this email.    From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2018 8:27 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trackers  To All,  Seen it first hand with existing Northeast offgrid clients that had old pole mounts with lots of generator usage during the winter months. Added a single 12 module DAT and generator usage was down to as little as twice in the entire winter. Others usage was down to just a handful of times required from genny. They are great at shedding snow. Bottom line is generator usage was cut in most cases by 75% or better. I'm a believer here in upstate NY.  ChristopherChris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870  5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.comThomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."    On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:37 AM, Andrew Truitt wrote:  These guys are new but I've heard good things:  http://www.sulasindustries.com/   Regards,   Andrew Truitt | DRVwww.dr.venturesd: 202.486.7507  NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132     "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough    On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:38 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: Bill,No, I'm with you on this.Given the the greatest boost (~+/- 30%) of daily tracking is during the summer and most stand-alone applications are winter-peak (where tracking adds at best 10-15%), seasonal water pumping is about the only time when small-scale tracking is justified over simply adding array. Any pumping where the source is slow enough that the length of the day becomes an important factor, like drip irrigation or a very low yield well or spring, is worth looking into. But that's about it in my experience. Allan-- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cellOn 9/5/2018 5:53 PM, solar1online at charter.net wrote: Chris,I thought since solar PV prices have come down (understatement), is it not more cost effective to buy more modules than a tracker? Are there scenarios that the above would not ring true? (As I remember, off grid water pumping for livestock ponds may still be an exception as also, limited space.) Please advise.Thanks,Bill LoeschSolar 1 - Saint Louis Solar314 631 1094----------------------------------------From: chris at OasisMontana.com Sent: Wednesday September 5 2018 3:45:25PMDear people:What trackers are y’all using nowadays?  I have a customer (with a great site) who’s insisting on a pair.  We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now.Thanks for the input!Chris DaumOasis Montana Inc.406-777-4309 or 4321406-777-4309 faxwww.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood Alliance  List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org  Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org  List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html  List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm  Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org  -- Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870  5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.comThomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Sep 6 16:04:30 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2018 13:04:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: References: <6eb7816f-c95e-aca9-2935-00572c6b2c34@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I like Array Tek and for offgrid. It is a waste to dual axis track. Less is more! All you need is the array point at the sun with enough tilt to shed snow. Again, Less is more. If it had a failure (and none of mine have) it is still a fixed array until it is repaired. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 09:30:23 -0600, Ray wrote: I agree with Bill border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> Bill, No, I'm with you on this.Given the the greatest boost (~+/- 30%) of daily tracking is during the summer and most stand-alone applications are winter-peak (where tracking adds at best 10-15%), seasonal water pumping is about the only time when small-scale tracking is justified over simply adding array. Any pumping where the source is slow enough that the length of the day becomes an important factor, like drip irrigation or a very low yield well or spring, is worth looking into. But that's about it in my experience. Allan -- ALLAN SINDELAR allan at sindelarsolar.com [3] NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 CELL On 9/5/2018 5:53 PM, solar1online at charter.net [4] wrote: Chris, I thought since solar PV prices have come down (understatement), is it not more cost effective to buy more modules than a tracker? Are there scenarios that the above would not ring true? (As I remember, off grid water pumping for livestock ponds may still be an exception as also, limited space.) Please advise. Thanks, Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 ---------------------------------------- From: chris at OasisMontana.com [5] Sent: Wednesday September 5 2018 3:45:25PM Dear people: What trackers are y'all using nowadays? I have a customer (with a great site) who's insisting on a pair. We've sold Zomeworks and Array Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. Thanks for the input! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com [6] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] List rules ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [17] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [18] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com [4] mailto:solar1online at charter.net [5] mailto:chris at OasisMontana.com [6] http://www.oasismontana.com [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [18] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Sep 6 23:06:26 2018 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 20:06:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: <1256237117.145747.1536265577591@mail.yahoo.com> References: <007101d445f4$dee67910$9cb36b30$@solarwork.com> <01f701d445fc$7afcf3e0$70f6dba0$@OasisMontana.com> <1256237117.145747.1536265577591@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <286DD14F-D51A-474A-A9BC-95766BC64DB3@sindelarsolar.com> What am I missing here, Bill? If the tracker costs $10,000 (plus installation) to carry 24 modules, that's $416 per module, which is more than the cost of the modules themselves. I don't get the point of doing this. It almost sounds like consumer vanity - "Folks do like to watch the slow dance of the modules". How can tracking be justified? Allan Sindelar Sindelar Solar 505 780-2738 > On Sep 6, 2018, at 1:26 PM, Bill Hennessy wrote: > > Chris-- > > We installed two 24-module AllEarth dual-axis trackers at the request of a homeowner two years ago--"I like companies that are from Vermont." > inspite of a higher cost as compared to a ground mount equivalent w Krinner groundscrews. > > You can buy either the tracker alone or complete kits. The 24-module tracker is about $10,000. The concrete base was fairly easy to install. I think the hole was 4x4x4 with rebar crosshatch. The frame is assembled on the ground and lifted to the pole (you need about a18-foot lift). Our mini excavator was barely tall enough. We did the frame layout and assembly on the excavator trailer and it worked well. If you go to Vermont, they have a free two-day training program where you assemble a tracker. > > One of the trackers had an early issue with a stuck hydraulic valve. Warranty service was prompt and knowledgeable and we haven't had issues since. We did have to upsize the Fronius inverters. My design mistake. I typically oversize the array to the inverter, but in the spring, the arrays were always clipping. > > Folks do like to watch the slow dance of the modules. > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > > > From: "chris at OasisMontana.com" > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Sent: Thursday, September 6, 2018 3:37 PM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trackers > > Hi Folks: I appreciate the input but I am looking for TYPES of trackers that you may be selling (and yes, I told him about adding more & cheaper solar modules than investing in a tracker, but it’s the customer’s decision). Zomeworks is not what the client wants; I would prefer dual axis; the customer’s in north central CA with a good resource. I say go with Array Technologies but I would think there must be something new and improved by now. > > --Chris Daum/Oasis Montana > > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dana > Sent: Thursday, September 6, 2018 9:18 AM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers > > I second this observation. > > I now live again off grid in a narrow N-S canyon in south central Idaho. Having limited ground space [thanks to county regs] & not wanting roof mounted arrays to have to clear snow from, trackers VS. fix top of pole mounts enhance my output & they reduced the # of modules required for my homes projected load design. > > 6400 watts rated output on 2 Array Tech tracking arrays. Fixed would have required 3 arrays & 6-8 more modules. Trackers are programed to full vertical in winter to shed overnight snow dumps, this saves time & effort in the morning when it’s a Powder day! Can’t miss those Powder mornings. > 5400 watts per hour in the summer when hot. > Up to 8400 watts per hour on a cold winter day. Exactly what I needed 31+% additional output with a 4-hour window of sun at New Year’s Day. So far, my generator has never started… > > *A repeat from a previous RE conversation years ago, I had to see for myself &: > Last house in CO, I had [6] 250-watt mod on a tracker & [6] 250-watt mod on a fixed roof array. > The tracker consistently outproduced the fixed array by 32% averaged over the year. > > Trackers have their place and advantages. That said, with todays $/watt o modules if you have the space fixed is a more cost-effective way to proceed. > > Signed - A 25-year tracker advocate. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2018 8:27 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trackers > > To All, > > Seen it first hand with existing Northeast offgrid clients that had old pole mounts with lots of generator usage during the winter months. Added a single 12 module DAT and generator usage was down to as little as twice in the entire winter. Others usage was down to just a handful of times required from genny. They are great at shedding snow. Bottom line is generator usage was cut in most cases by 75% or better. I'm a believer here in upstate NY. > > Christopher > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:37 AM, Andrew Truitt wrote: > > These guys are new but I've heard good things: http://www.sulasindustries.com/ > > > Regards, > > Andrew Truitt | DRV > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > > > "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" > > ~William McDonough > > > On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:38 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Bill, > No, I'm with you on this.Given the the greatest boost (~+/- 30%) of daily tracking is during the summer and most stand-alone applications are winter-peak (where tracking adds at best 10-15%), seasonal water pumping is about the only time when small-scale tracking is justified over simply adding array. Any pumping where the source is slow enough that the length of the day becomes an important factor, like drip irrigation or a very low yield well or spring, is worth looking into. But that's about it in my experience. > Allan > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > On 9/5/2018 5:53 PM, solar1online at charter.net wrote: > Chris, > I thought since solar PV prices have come down (understatement), is it not more cost effective to buy more modules than a tracker? Are there scenarios that the above would not ring true? (As I remember, off grid water pumping for livestock ponds may still be an exception as also, limited space.) Please advise. > Thanks, > Bill Loesch > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar > 314 631 1094 > ---------------------------------------- > From: chris at OasisMontana.com > Sent: Wednesday September 5 2018 3:45:25PM > Dear people: > What trackers are y’all using nowadays? I have a customer (with a great site) who’s insisting on a pair. We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. > Thanks for the input! > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Sep 7 01:12:32 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 23:12:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: <286DD14F-D51A-474A-A9BC-95766BC64DB3@sindelarsolar.com> References: <007101d445f4$dee67910$9cb36b30$@solarwork.com> <01f701d445fc$7afcf3e0$70f6dba0$@OasisMontana.com> <1256237117.145747.1536265577591@mail.yahoo.com> <286DD14F-D51A-474A-A9BC-95766BC64DB3@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <42a6a81f-bbc7-06a3-caaa-f50e60a61c16@solarray.com> Allan; That's the same math I've done, and tracking off grid just doesn't pencil much of the time  There is software that can model tracking vs fixed. If you run these calcs and pay attention to the critical winter months, its just not there.  Also even when tracking might be a consideration, most people do not have a dawn to dusk perfect solar window, so shading starts reducing the benefits as well.  I found it hard enough to not shade a fixed array, so tracking is certainly not adding much in a tight valley with trees. Its funny how my designs have shifted from tracking back in the 80s and 90s, to fixed pole mounts set due south with adjustable tilt, to now I'm running PV Watts and seeing that roof mounts at imperfect tilt and azimuth can still have the most energy for the money: Just add more modules. That's funny too, because if you had shown me a roof array like that 20 years ago, I would have been poo pooing it for days.(That's not even close to south!!...)  Our racking and tracking choices have changed significantly now that PV is under $1/ watt. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/6/18 9:06 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > What am I missing here, Bill? If the tracker costs $10,000 (plus > installation) to carry 24 modules, that's $416 per module, which is > more than the cost of the modules themselves. I don't get the point of > doing this. It almost sounds like consumer vanity - "Folks do like to > watch the slow dance of the modules". > How can tracking be justified? > > Allan Sindelar > Sindelar Solar > 505 780-2738 > > On Sep 6, 2018, at 1:26 PM, Bill Hennessy > wrote: > >> Chris-- >> >> We installed two 24-module AllEarth dual-axis trackers at the request >> of a homeowner two years ago--"I like companies that are from Vermont." >> inspite of a higher cost as compared to a ground mount equivalent w >> Krinner groundscrews. >> >> You can buy either the tracker alone or complete kits. The 24-module >> tracker is about $10,000. The concrete base was fairly easy to >> install. I think the hole was 4x4x4 with rebar crosshatch. The frame >> is assembled on the ground and lifted to the pole (you need about >> a18-foot lift). Our mini excavator was barely tall enough. We did the >> frame layout and assembly on the excavator trailer and it worked >> well. If you go to Vermont, they have a free two-day training program >> where you assemble a tracker. >> >> One of the trackers had an early issue with a stuck hydraulic valve. >> Warranty service was prompt and knowledgeable and we haven't had >> issues since. We did have to upsize the Fronius inverters. My design >> mistake. I typically oversize the array to the inverter, but in the >> spring, the arrays were always clipping. >> >> Folks do like to watch the slow dance of the modules. >> Bill Hennessy >> Berks Solar, LLC >> 371 Centennial Rd >> Mertztown, PA 19539 >> >> o 610 682 4300 >> c 484 560 4666 >> NABCEP certified installer >> PA contractor #44411 >> www.berkssolar.com >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* "chris at OasisMontana.com " >> > >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > > >> *Sent:* Thursday, September 6, 2018 3:37 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Trackers >> >> Hi Folks:I appreciate the input but I am looking for TYPES of >> trackers that you may be selling (and yes, I told him about adding >> more & cheaper solar modules than investing in a tracker, but it’s >> the customer’s decision).Zomeworks is not what the client wants; I >> would prefer dual axis; the customer’s in north central CA with a >> good resource.I say go with Array Technologies but I would think >> there must be something new and improved by now. >> --Chris Daum/Oasis Montana >> *From:*RE-wrenches > > *On Behalf Of *Dana >> *Sent:* Thursday, September 6, 2018 9:18 AM >> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > > >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Trackers >> I second this observation. >> I now live again off grid in a narrow N-S canyon in south central >> Idaho. Having limited ground space [thanks to county regs] & not >> wanting roof mounted arrays to have to clear snow from, trackers VS. >> fix top of pole mounts enhance my output & they reduced the # of >> modules required for my homes projected load design. >> >> * 6400 watts rated output on 2 Array Tech tracking arrays. Fixed >> would have required 3 arrays & 6-8 more modules. Trackers are >> programed to full vertical in winter to shed overnight snow >> dumps, this saves time & effort in the morning when it’s a Powder >> day! Can’t miss those Powder mornings. >> * 5400 watts per hour in the summer when hot. >> * Up to 8400 watts per hour on a cold winter day. Exactly what I >> needed 31+% additional output with a 4-hour window of sun at New >> Year’s Day. So far, my generator has never started… >> >> *A repeat from a previous RE conversation years ago, I had to see for >> myself &: >> Last house in CO, I had [6] 250-watt mod on a tracker & [6] 250-watt >> mod on a fixed roof array. >> The tracker consistently outproduced the fixed array by 32% averaged >> over the year. >> Trackers have their place and advantages. That said, with todays >> $/watt o modules if you have the space fixed is a more cost-effective >> way to proceed. >> Signed - A 25-year tracker advocate. >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com * >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _ >> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> *From:* RE-wrenches > > *On Behalf Of >> *Chris Schaefer >> *Sent:* Thursday, September 06, 2018 8:27 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches > > >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Trackers >> To All, >> Seen it first hand with existing Northeast offgrid clients that had >> old pole mounts with lots of generator usage during the winter >> months. Added a single 12 module DAT and generator usage was down to >> as little as twice in the entire winter. Others usage was down to >> just a handful of times required from genny. They are great at >> shedding snow. Bottom line is generator usage was cut in most cases >> by 75% or better. I'm a believer here in upstate NY. >> Christopher >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> www.solarandwindfx.com  ~ E-mail: >> //chris at solarandwindfx.com / >> // >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:37 AM, Andrew Truitt > > wrote: >> >> These guys are new but I've heard good things: >> http://www.sulasindustries.com/ >> * >> Regards, * >> *Andrew Truitt | DRV * >> www.dr.ventures >> d: 202.486.7507 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 >> Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 >> >> "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I >> prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an >> enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from >> us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 >> minutes. And it's wireless!" >> >> ~William McDonough >> On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:38 PM Sindelar Solar >> > wrote: >> >> Bill, >> No, I'm with you on this.Given the the greatest boost (~+/- >> 30%) of daily tracking is during the summer and most >> stand-alone applications are winter-peak (where tracking adds >> at best 10-15%), seasonal water pumping is about the only >> time when small-scale tracking is justified over simply >> adding array. Any pumping where the source is slow enough >> that the length of the day becomes an important factor, like >> drip irrigation or a very low yield well or spring, is worth >> looking into. But that's about it in my experience. >> Allan >> -- >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> On 9/5/2018 5:53 PM, solar1online at charter.net >> wrote: >> >> Chris, >> I thought since solar PV prices have come down >> (understatement), is it not more cost effective to buy >> more modules than a tracker? Are there scenarios that the >> above would not ring true? (As I remember, off grid water >> pumping for livestock ponds may still be an exception as >> also, limited space.) Please advise. >> Thanks, >> Bill Loesch >> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar >> 314 631 1094 >> ---------------------------------------- >> From: chris at OasisMontana.com >> Sent: Wednesday September 5 2018 3:45:25PM >> Dear people: >> What trackers are y’all using nowadays?  I have a >> customer (with a great site) who’s insisting on a pair.  >> We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array Technologies in the past, >> but I know there are more offerings now. >> Thanks for the input! >> Chris Daum >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >> 406-777-4309 fax >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: >> //chris at solarandwindfx.com / >> // >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 07:56:39 2018 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 07:56:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: <42a6a81f-bbc7-06a3-caaa-f50e60a61c16@solarray.com> References: <007101d445f4$dee67910$9cb36b30$@solarwork.com> <01f701d445fc$7afcf3e0$70f6dba0$@OasisMontana.com> <1256237117.145747.1536265577591@mail.yahoo.com> <286DD14F-D51A-474A-A9BC-95766BC64DB3@sindelarsolar.com> <42a6a81f-bbc7-06a3-caaa-f50e60a61c16@solarray.com> Message-ID: <41D30651-CE22-4953-9F98-86C0F44FF973@gmail.com> Amazing what the difference of $10.00 a watt to a $1.00 a watt for panels makes in the design ! Still don’t like poking holes in a perfectly good roof ! Just another set of random thoughts, Bob Ellison > On Sep 7, 2018, at 1:12 AM, Ray wrote: > > Allan; > > That's the same math I've done, and tracking off grid just doesn't pencil much of the time There is software that can model tracking vs fixed. If you run these calcs and pay attention to the critical winter months, its just not there. Also even when tracking might be a consideration, most people do not have a dawn to dusk perfect solar window, so shading starts reducing the benefits as well. I found it hard enough to not shade a fixed array, so tracking is certainly not adding much in a tight valley with trees. > Its funny how my designs have shifted from tracking back in the 80s and 90s, to fixed pole mounts set due south with adjustable tilt, to now I'm running PV Watts and seeing that roof mounts at imperfect tilt and azimuth can still have the most energy for the money: Just add more modules. > That's funny too, because if you had shown me a roof array like that 20 years ago, I would have been poo pooing it for days.(That's not even close to south!!...) Our racking and tracking choices have changed significantly now that PV is under $1/ watt. > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 >> On 9/6/18 9:06 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >> What am I missing here, Bill? If the tracker costs $10,000 (plus installation) to carry 24 modules, that's $416 per module, which is more than the cost of the modules themselves. I don't get the point of doing this. It almost sounds like consumer vanity - "Folks do like to watch the slow dance of the modules". >> How can tracking be justified? >> >> Allan Sindelar >> Sindelar Solar >> 505 780-2738 >> >> On Sep 6, 2018, at 1:26 PM, Bill Hennessy wrote: >> >>> Chris-- >>> >>> We installed two 24-module AllEarth dual-axis trackers at the request of a homeowner two years ago--"I like companies that are from Vermont." >>> inspite of a higher cost as compared to a ground mount equivalent w Krinner groundscrews. >>> >>> You can buy either the tracker alone or complete kits. The 24-module tracker is about $10,000. The concrete base was fairly easy to install. I think the hole was 4x4x4 with rebar crosshatch. The frame is assembled on the ground and lifted to the pole (you need about a18-foot lift). Our mini excavator was barely tall enough. We did the frame layout and assembly on the excavator trailer and it worked well. If you go to Vermont, they have a free two-day training program where you assemble a tracker. >>> >>> One of the trackers had an early issue with a stuck hydraulic valve. Warranty service was prompt and knowledgeable and we haven't had issues since. We did have to upsize the Fronius inverters. My design mistake. I typically oversize the array to the inverter, but in the spring, the arrays were always clipping. >>> >>> Folks do like to watch the slow dance of the modules. >>> >>> Bill Hennessy >>> Berks Solar, LLC >>> 371 Centennial Rd >>> Mertztown, PA 19539 >>> >>> o 610 682 4300 >>> c 484 560 4666 >>> NABCEP certified installer >>> PA contractor #44411 >>> www.berkssolar.com >>> >>> >>> From: "chris at OasisMontana.com" >>> To: 'RE-wrenches' >>> Sent: Thursday, September 6, 2018 3:37 PM >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trackers >>> >>> Hi Folks: I appreciate the input but I am looking for TYPES of trackers that you may be selling (and yes, I told him about adding more & cheaper solar modules than investing in a tracker, but it’s the customer’s decision). Zomeworks is not what the client wants; I would prefer dual axis; the customer’s in north central CA with a good resource. I say go with Array Technologies but I would think there must be something new and improved by now. >>> >>> --Chris Daum/Oasis Montana >>> >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dana >>> Sent: Thursday, September 6, 2018 9:18 AM >>> To: 'RE-wrenches' >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers >>> >>> I second this observation. >>> >>> I now live again off grid in a narrow N-S canyon in south central Idaho. Having limited ground space [thanks to county regs] & not wanting roof mounted arrays to have to clear snow from, trackers VS. fix top of pole mounts enhance my output & they reduced the # of modules required for my homes projected load design. >>> >>> 6400 watts rated output on 2 Array Tech tracking arrays. Fixed would have required 3 arrays & 6-8 more modules. Trackers are programed to full vertical in winter to shed overnight snow dumps, this saves time & effort in the morning when it’s a Powder day! Can’t miss those Powder mornings. >>> 5400 watts per hour in the summer when hot. >>> Up to 8400 watts per hour on a cold winter day. Exactly what I needed 31+% additional output with a 4-hour window of sun at New Year’s Day. So far, my generator has never started… >>> >>> *A repeat from a previous RE conversation years ago, I had to see for myself &: >>> Last house in CO, I had [6] 250-watt mod on a tracker & [6] 250-watt mod on a fixed roof array. >>> The tracker consistently outproduced the fixed array by 32% averaged over the year. >>> >>> Trackers have their place and advantages. That said, with todays $/watt o modules if you have the space fixed is a more cost-effective way to proceed. >>> >>> Signed - A 25-year tracker advocate. >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >>> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>> P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>> >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer >>> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2018 8:27 AM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trackers >>> >>> To All, >>> >>> Seen it first hand with existing Northeast offgrid clients that had old pole mounts with lots of generator usage during the winter months. Added a single 12 module DAT and generator usage was down to as little as twice in the entire winter. Others usage was down to just a handful of times required from genny. They are great at shedding snow. Bottom line is generator usage was cut in most cases by 75% or better. I'm a believer here in upstate NY. >>> >>> Christopher >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:37 AM, Andrew Truitt wrote: >>> >>> These guys are new but I've heard good things: http://www.sulasindustries.com/ >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Andrew Truitt | DRV >>> www.dr.ventures >>> d: 202.486.7507 >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 >>> Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 >>> >>> >>> >>> "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" >>> >>> ~William McDonough >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:38 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: >>> Bill, >>> No, I'm with you on this.Given the the greatest boost (~+/- 30%) of daily tracking is during the summer and most stand-alone applications are winter-peak (where tracking adds at best 10-15%), seasonal water pumping is about the only time when small-scale tracking is justified over simply adding array. Any pumping where the source is slow enough that the length of the day becomes an important factor, like drip irrigation or a very low yield well or spring, is worth looking into. But that's about it in my experience. >>> Allan >>> -- >>> Allan Sindelar >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> 505 780-2738 cell >>> On 9/5/2018 5:53 PM, solar1online at charter.net wrote: >>> Chris, >>> I thought since solar PV prices have come down (understatement), is it not more cost effective to buy more modules than a tracker? Are there scenarios that the above would not ring true? (As I remember, off grid water pumping for livestock ponds may still be an exception as also, limited space.) Please advise. >>> Thanks, >>> Bill Loesch >>> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar >>> 314 631 1094 >>> ---------------------------------------- >>> From: chris at OasisMontana.com >>> Sent: Wednesday September 5 2018 3:45:25PM >>> Dear people: >>> What trackers are y’all using nowadays? I have a customer (with a great site) who’s insisting on a pair. We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array Technologies in the past, but I know there are more offerings now. >>> Thanks for the input! >>> Chris Daum >>> Oasis Montana Inc. >>> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >>> 406-777-4309 fax >>> www.oasismontana.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Sep 7 10:33:22 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:33:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <006701d43b3b$2a4d1130$7ee73390$@solarwork.com> References: <20180823203656.6C379108290@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <006701d43b3b$2a4d1130$7ee73390$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Dana, Your comments, and other comments on this list have made me see the light. We are going to go with a boiler. What is the best source of equipment for this application these days? Many years ago, I helped install a system in Colorado using El Sid pumps, with guidance from you, if you recall this ancient history. Cheers, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 07:43 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote: >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0068_01D43B08.DFB2A130" >Content-Language: en-us > >Drake, >All the conventional units I have amp clamped over the years are >pushing 900-900+ watts per hour. I do not recommend them ever & to >date I have never found a lower wattage blower. I would assume that >a permanent magnet motor would fit this suggestion, but I have not found one. >For off grid I recommend: Radiant floor heat first and hot water >base board second long before hot air. Air is a better insulator >than a heat transfer agent. >The new ECM (electronically commutated motors) pump motors are >basically at DC permanent magnet motor power draws [Taco & >Grundfoss] these days. > >Best of luck with this one. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >NABCEP # >051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > >From: RE-wrenches On >Behalf Of Drake >Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 2:37 PM >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace > >Hello Wrenches, > >What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off >grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, >although the transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. >Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace AC will be >powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. > >Thank you, > >Drake > >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Sep 7 11:36:42 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 09:36:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: <41D30651-CE22-4953-9F98-86C0F44FF973@gmail.com> References: <007101d445f4$dee67910$9cb36b30$@solarwork.com> <01f701d445fc$7afcf3e0$70f6dba0$@OasisMontana.com> <1256237117.145747.1536265577591@mail.yahoo.com> <286DD14F-D51A-474A-A9BC-95766BC64DB3@sindelarsolar.com> <42a6a81f-bbc7-06a3-caaa-f50e60a61c16@solarray.com> <41D30651-CE22-4953-9F98-86C0F44FF973@gmail.com> Message-ID: <27b0d491-6790-a6d7-c334-9cc964c9664f@solarray.com> Yep, I wouldn't even consider roof mounts 15 years ago. Fall danger, leaks, I'm an electrician not a roof jockey....   Of course the mounts, racking, etc have improved vastly, and now I have a substantial ladder collection.  I still prefer a good ol' pole mount for installation, I just can't justify them as much anymore. And as far as the yard art  aspect of trackers: they are indeed fun to watch.  All day long the sun would pop out from behind the clouds, and then you run watch the tracker catch back up.  I use to have trackers that were making power at 5:30 am, very exciting as well, but just not that practical. After replacing the third drive motor in 5 years, I started manually setting them to be fixed arrays. They used to be fairly sensitive to lightning, I'm sure they're better now. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/7/18 5:56 AM, RE Ellison wrote: > Amazing what the difference of $10.00 a watt to a $1.00 a watt for > panels makes in the design ! > Still don’t like poking holes in a perfectly good roof ! > > Just another set of random thoughts, > Bob Ellison > > On Sep 7, 2018, at 1:12 AM, Ray > wrote: > >> Allan; >> >> That's the same math I've done, and tracking off grid just doesn't >> pencil much of the time  There is software that can model tracking vs >> fixed. If you run these calcs and pay attention to the critical >> winter months, its just not there.  Also even when tracking might be >> a consideration, most people do not have a dawn to dusk perfect solar >> window, so shading starts reducing the benefits as well.  I found it >> hard enough to not shade a fixed array, so tracking is certainly not >> adding much in a tight valley with trees. >> >> Its funny how my designs have shifted from tracking back in the 80s >> and 90s, to fixed pole mounts set due south with adjustable tilt, to >> now I'm running PV Watts and seeing that roof mounts at imperfect >> tilt and azimuth can still have the most energy for the money: Just >> add more modules. >> >> That's funny too, because if you had shown me a roof array like that >> 20 years ago, I would have been poo pooing it for days.(That's not >> even close to south!!...)  Our racking and tracking choices have >> changed significantly now that PV is under $1/ watt. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 9/6/18 9:06 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: >>> What am I missing here, Bill? If the tracker costs $10,000 (plus >>> installation) to carry 24 modules, that's $416 per module, which is >>> more than the cost of the modules themselves. I don't get the point >>> of doing this. It almost sounds like consumer vanity - "Folks do >>> like to watch the slow dance of the modules". >>> How can tracking be justified? >>> >>> Allan Sindelar >>> Sindelar Solar >>> 505 780-2738 >>> >>> On Sep 6, 2018, at 1:26 PM, Bill Hennessy >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Chris-- >>>> >>>> We installed two 24-module AllEarth dual-axis trackers at the >>>> request of a homeowner two years ago--"I like companies that are >>>> from Vermont." >>>> inspite of a higher cost as compared to a ground mount equivalent w >>>> Krinner groundscrews. >>>> >>>> You can buy either the tracker alone or complete kits. The >>>> 24-module tracker is about $10,000. The concrete base was fairly >>>> easy to install. I think the hole was 4x4x4 with rebar crosshatch. >>>> The frame is assembled on the ground and lifted to the pole (you >>>> need about a18-foot lift). Our mini excavator was barely tall >>>> enough. We did the frame layout and assembly on the excavator >>>> trailer and it worked well. If you go to Vermont, they have a free >>>> two-day training program where you assemble a tracker. >>>> >>>> One of the trackers had an early issue with a stuck hydraulic >>>> valve. Warranty service was prompt and knowledgeable and we haven't >>>> had issues since. We did have to upsize the Fronius inverters. My >>>> design mistake. I typically oversize the array to the inverter, but >>>> in the spring, the arrays were always clipping. >>>> >>>> Folks do like to watch the slow dance of the modules. >>>> Bill Hennessy >>>> Berks Solar, LLC >>>> 371 Centennial Rd >>>> Mertztown, PA 19539 >>>> >>>> o 610 682 4300 >>>> c 484 560 4666 >>>> NABCEP certified installer >>>> PA contractor #44411 >>>> www.berkssolar.com >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *From:* "chris at OasisMontana.com " >>>> > >>>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >>> > >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 6, 2018 3:37 PM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Trackers >>>> >>>> Hi Folks:I appreciate the input but I am looking for TYPES of >>>> trackers that you may be selling (and yes, I told him about adding >>>> more & cheaper solar modules than investing in a tracker, but it’s >>>> the customer’s decision).Zomeworks is not what the client wants; I >>>> would prefer dual axis; the customer’s in north central CA with a >>>> good resource.I say go with Array Technologies but I would think >>>> there must be something new and improved by now. >>>> --Chris Daum/Oasis Montana >>>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> > *On Behalf Of *Dana >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 6, 2018 9:18 AM >>>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' >>> > >>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Trackers >>>> I second this observation. >>>> I now live again off grid in a narrow N-S canyon in south central >>>> Idaho. Having limited ground space [thanks to county regs] & not >>>> wanting roof mounted arrays to have to clear snow from, trackers >>>> VS. fix top of pole mounts enhance my output & they reduced the # >>>> of modules required for my homes projected load design. >>>> >>>> * 6400 watts rated output on 2 Array Tech tracking arrays. Fixed >>>> would have required 3 arrays & 6-8 more modules. Trackers are >>>> programed to full vertical in winter to shed overnight snow >>>> dumps, this saves time & effort in the morning when it’s a >>>> Powder day! Can’t miss those Powder mornings. >>>> * 5400 watts per hour in the summer when hot. >>>> * Up to 8400 watts per hour on a cold winter day. Exactly what I >>>> needed 31+% additional output with a 4-hour window of sun at >>>> New Year’s Day. So far, my generator has never started… >>>> >>>> *A repeat from a previous RE conversation years ago, I had to see >>>> for myself &: >>>> Last house in CO, I had [6] 250-watt mod on a tracker & [6] >>>> 250-watt mod on a fixed roof array. >>>> The tracker consistently outproduced the fixed array by 32% >>>> averaged over the year. >>>> Trackers have their place and advantages. That said, with todays >>>> $/watt o modules if you have the space fixed is a more >>>> cost-effective way to proceed. >>>> Signed - A 25-year tracker advocate. >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>>> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com * >>>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >>>> _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" _ >>>> *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches >>> > *On Behalf Of >>>> *Chris Schaefer >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 06, 2018 8:27 AM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> > >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Trackers >>>> To All, >>>> Seen it first hand with existing Northeast offgrid clients that had >>>> old pole mounts with lots of generator usage during the winter >>>> months. Added a single 12 module DAT and generator usage was down >>>> to as little as twice in the entire winter. Others usage was down >>>> to just a handful of times required from genny. They are great at >>>> shedding snow. Bottom line is generator usage was cut in most cases >>>> by 75% or better. I'm a believer here in upstate NY. >>>> Christopher >>>> Chris Schaefer’s >>>> >>>> /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>>> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>>> www.solarandwindfx.com  ~ E-mail: >>>> //chris at solarandwindfx.com / >>>> // >>>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who >>>> are willing to work and give to those who would not." >>>> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:37 AM, Andrew Truitt >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> These guys are new but I've heard good things: >>>> http://www.sulasindustries.com/ >>>> * >>>> Regards, * >>>> *Andrew Truitt | DRV * >>>> www.dr.ventures >>>> d: 202.486.7507 >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 >>>> Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 >>>> >>>> "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I >>>> prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's >>>> an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles >>>> from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about >>>> 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" >>>> >>>> ~William McDonough >>>> On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 9:38 PM Sindelar Solar >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Bill, >>>> No, I'm with you on this.Given the the greatest boost (~+/- >>>> 30%) of daily tracking is during the summer and most >>>> stand-alone applications are winter-peak (where tracking >>>> adds at best 10-15%), seasonal water pumping is about the >>>> only time when small-scale tracking is justified over >>>> simply adding array. Any pumping where the source is slow >>>> enough that the length of the day becomes an important >>>> factor, like drip irrigation or a very low yield well or >>>> spring, is worth looking into. But that's about it in my >>>> experience. >>>> Allan >>>> -- >>>> *Allan Sindelar* >>>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>>> *505 780-2738 cell* >>>> On 9/5/2018 5:53 PM, solar1online at charter.net >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Chris, >>>> I thought since solar PV prices have come down >>>> (understatement), is it not more cost effective to buy >>>> more modules than a tracker? Are there scenarios that >>>> the above would not ring true? (As I remember, off grid >>>> water pumping for livestock ponds may still be an >>>> exception as also, limited space.) Please advise. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Bill Loesch >>>> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar >>>> 314 631 1094 >>>> ---------------------------------------- >>>> From: chris at OasisMontana.com >>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday September 5 2018 3:45:25PM >>>> Dear people: >>>> What trackers are y’all using nowadays?  I have a >>>> customer (with a great site) who’s insisting on a >>>> pair.  We’ve sold Zomeworks and Array Technologies in >>>> the past, but I know there are more offerings now. >>>> Thanks for the input! >>>> Chris Daum >>>> Oasis Montana Inc. >>>> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >>>> 406-777-4309 fax >>>> www.oasismontana.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Chris Schaefer’s >>>> >>>> /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>>> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>>> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: >>>> //chris at solarandwindfx.com / >>>> // >>>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who >>>> are willing to work and give to those who would not." >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Fri Sep 7 13:03:40 2018 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 12:03:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika Message-ID: Wrenches, I am trying to design a Pika off-grid system. The issue is that they currently have no way to charge from a generator. Has anyone ever installed one set up for zero grid export and connected the generator to the grid input? Would LG chem or another manufacturer be a better choice? Thanks, Kris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Sep 7 13:23:08 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 11:23:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10793554-dc2a-5ab9-09ef-f808bfbe10f9@solarray.com> I would highly recommend using proven equipment from the long term off grid companies: Magnum, Midnite, Outback, Schneider, etc. and stick with a DC coupled array and lead acid batteries for now.  I just got back from inspecting two Li+ off grid systems done by a GT dealer, and I saw numerous issues that included the charge controllers not agreeing with the BMS system, the BMS system monitoring having numerous programming and connectivity issues, the battery overall being vastly undersized, the manufacturer (Adara) dropping support for their battery, and the customers being hopping mad.  Most off grid folks own guns; not a good combination to walk into. My advice, is that if an installer hasn't lived off grid and/ or dedicated their practice to off grid systems, they should stay out of it and quit ruining peoples' lives.  GT is usually never a life or death matter, but Off grid can be, when they are snowed in with no fridge, no water, no heat, and no communications.  Reliability is goal #1, Simplicity is #2. Good Luck, Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/7/18 11:03 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Wrenches, > > I am trying to design a Pika off-grid system. The issue is that they > currently have no way to charge from a generator.  Has anyone ever > installed one set up for zero grid export and connected the generator > to the grid input? > > Would LG chem or another manufacturer be a better choice? > > Thanks, > Kris > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 13:29:09 2018 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 13:29:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika In-Reply-To: <10793554-dc2a-5ab9-09ef-f808bfbe10f9@solarray.com> References: <10793554-dc2a-5ab9-09ef-f808bfbe10f9@solarray.com> Message-ID: <0B75F01B-F205-4C4D-9C3B-8608D1F3F113@gmail.com> Agreed, use long term off grid manufacturers gear, I can’t recommend reinventing the wheel. 3 am phone calls suck ! Bob ellison > On Sep 7, 2018, at 1:23 PM, Ray wrote: > > I would highly recommend using proven equipment from the long term off grid companies: Magnum, Midnite, Outback, Schneider, etc. and stick with a DC coupled array and lead acid batteries for now. I just got back from inspecting two Li+ off grid systems done by a GT dealer, and I saw numerous issues that included the charge controllers not agreeing with the BMS system, the BMS system monitoring having numerous programming and connectivity issues, the battery overall being vastly undersized, the manufacturer (Adara) dropping support for their battery, and the customers being hopping mad. Most off grid folks own guns; not a good combination to walk into. > My advice, is that if an installer hasn't lived off grid and/ or dedicated their practice to off grid systems, they should stay out of it and quit ruining peoples' lives. GT is usually never a life or death matter, but Off grid can be, when they are snowed in with no fridge, no water, no heat, and no communications. Reliability is goal #1, Simplicity is #2. > Good Luck, > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 >> On 9/7/18 11:03 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: >> Wrenches, >> >> I am trying to design a Pika off-grid system. The issue is that they currently have no way to charge from a generator. Has anyone ever installed one set up for zero grid export and connected the generator to the grid input? >> >> Would LG chem or another manufacturer be a better choice? >> >> Thanks, >> Kris >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 21:28:19 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 18:28:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers In-Reply-To: References: <007101d445f4$dee67910$9cb36b30$@solarwork.com> <01f701d445fc$7afcf3e0$70f6dba0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, In regards to wattsun, which controller are they using? The website doesn’t give any details. The last one I did used a quite complicated one and it didn’t have easy to use external manual controls. Thx Jay Peltz power. > On Sep 6, 2018, at 1:13 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > > Chris, > > I've been using both All Earth Renewables (AER) and Array Tech. I really like AER but the smallest they make is a 20 module rack. I use their 24 module (60 cell) rack with a 320 to 335 watt module in my offgrid projects. One of the reasons I like AER is because of the GPS tracking, no sensor to block with snow. It is a very durable unit. Prior to AER I used Array Tech. They have been sold off from wattsun and have made some upgrades with their linear actuators but haven't installed a new unit since switching to AER 4 years ago. The AT holds 12 60 cell modules. Feel free to call if you'd like some more detail. > > Christopher 585-748-1870 > >> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:12 PM, wrote: >> Hi Folks: I appreciate the input but I am looking for TYPES of trackers that you may be selling (and yes, I told him about adding more & cheaper solar modules than investing in a tracker, but it’s the customer’s decision). Zomeworks is not what the client wants; I would prefer dual axis; the customer’s in north central CA with a good resource. I say go with Array Technologies but I would think there must be something new and improved by now. >> >> >> >> --Chris Daum/Oasis Montana >> >> >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dana >> Sent: Thursday, September 6, 2018 9:18 AM >> To: 'RE-wrenches' >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trackers >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 19:35:48 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 13:35:48 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kris/Wrenches you can use a battery charger direct to the genny, we have had to do this with some projects that could not have any interruption during a switch over, this was on a OutBack and could take a genny input, we sent it through a CT for the FMDC and mate. Different animal same solution will work. Jerry On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Wrenches, > > I am trying to design a Pika off-grid system. The issue is that they > currently have no way to charge from a generator. Has anyone ever > installed one set up for zero grid export and connected the generator to > the grid input? > > Would LG chem or another manufacturer be a better choice? > > Thanks, > Kris > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 22:04:03 2018 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 19:04:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kris, LG batteries are not approved for off grid use at this time, and the only inverter they work with so far is the StorEdge which is not an off grid inverter. This pertains to the high voltage units anyway. And, I'm not aware of anyone bringing the 48v units into the country yet. Either of these may change in the future, or not. Brad Bassett AEE Solar On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 4:35 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Kris/Wrenches > you can use a battery charger direct to the genny, we have had to do this > with some projects that could not have any interruption during a switch > over, this was on a OutBack and could take a genny input, we sent it > through a CT for the FMDC and mate. Different animal same solution will > work. > Jerry > > On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 7:03 AM, Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> I am trying to design a Pika off-grid system. The issue is that they >> currently have no way to charge from a generator. Has anyone ever >> installed one set up for zero grid export and connected the generator to >> the grid input? >> >> Would LG chem or another manufacturer be a better choice? >> >> Thanks, >> Kris >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 22:09:20 2018 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 19:09:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <20180907143330.B594C107D72@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180823203656.6C379108290@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <006701d43b3b$2a4d1130$7ee73390$@solarwork.com> <20180907143330.B594C107D72@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I have multiple ElSid pumps in my heating system which have been running for just about 15 years without the slightest hitch. At 10W each they are hard to beat, but they do need DC so a power supply is needed. I ran them off 24VDC direct from the battery for the first 10 years and from a small MeanWell power supply for the last 5 years. My only complaint is that when there are 4 of them running it sounds like a miniature WWII bomber. No loud enough to hear outside of the utility room but something to keep in mind. Brad Bassett AEE Solar Brad On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 7:33 AM Drake wrote: > Dana, > > Your comments, and other comments on this list have made me see the light. > We are going to go with a boiler. > > What is the best source of equipment for this application these days? > > Many years ago, I helped install a system in Colorado using El Sid pumps, > with guidance from you, if you recall this ancient history. > > Cheers, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ > > > At 07:43 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote: > > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0068_01D43B08.DFB2A130" > Content-Language: en-us > > Drake, > All the conventional units I have amp clamped over the years are pushing > 900-900+ watts per hour. I do not recommend them ever & to date I have > never found a lower wattage blower. I would assume that a permanent magnet > motor would fit this suggestion, but I have not found one. > For off grid I recommend: Radiant floor heat first and hot water base > board second long before hot air. Air is a better insulator than a heat > transfer agent. > The new ECM (electronically commutated motors) pump motors are basically > at DC permanent magnet motor power draws [Taco & Grundfoss] these days. > > Best of luck with this one. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > *Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # > 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" **P* > Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Drake > *Sent:* Thursday, August 23, 2018 2:37 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace > > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off grid > house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, although the > transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. Low blower current > would be preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 22:45:09 2018 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 22:45:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: References: <20180823203656.6C379108290@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <006701d43b3b$2a4d1130$7ee73390$@solarwork.com> <20180907143330.B594C107D72@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <5b9337b4.1c69fb81.acae7.38bb@mx.google.com> El Sid 10W DC pumps are great but in my experience they did not have the flow and head “oomph” for long runs for the zones on our second and third floors with our hydronic heating system (wood boiler). In our off grid house we installed El Sid’s on all 4 zones in the late 1980’s. We had recurring problems with the 2nd and 3rd floor zones (long runs) becoming air bound repeatedly after a couple of months of heavy use in the winter. Basement and 1st floor zones did not have this problem. I consulted with some plumbing and heating folks and ended up replacing the 2nd and 3rd floor zone El Sid’s with 115VAC Grundfos circ pumps. Problem solved, no more air lock problems. I had a hard time understanding that while the El Sid’s worked OK on the longer, higher head zones but did not have the power to avoid the air lock situation in our heating system. One of the plumbers explained it to me twenty something years ago BUT I don’t recall his explanation now. Maybe some wrench with more hydronic chops than I can explain it. Dave Palumbo Independent Power Hyde Park, VT Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Bradley Bassett Sent: Friday, September 7, 2018 10:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace I have multiple ElSid pumps in my heating system which have been running for just about 15 years without the slightest hitch. At 10W each they are hard to beat, but they do need DC so a power supply is needed. I ran them off 24VDC direct from the battery for the first 10 years and from a small MeanWell power supply for the last 5 years. My only complaint is that when there are 4 of them running it sounds like a miniature WWII bomber. No loud enough to hear outside of the utility room but something to keep in mind. Brad Bassett AEE Solar Brad On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 7:33 AM Drake wrote: Dana, Your comments, and other comments on this list have made me see the light. We are going to go with a boiler. What is the best source of equipment for this application these days? Many years ago, I helped install a system in Colorado using El Sid pumps, with guidance from you, if you recall this ancient history. Cheers, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 07:43 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative;          boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0068_01D43B08.DFB2A130" Content-Language: en-us Drake, All the conventional units I have amp clamped over the years are pushing 900-900+ watts per hour. I do not recommend them ever & to date I have never found a lower wattage blower. I would assume that a permanent magnet motor would fit this suggestion, but I have not found one. For off grid I recommend: Radiant floor heat first and hot water base board second long before hot air. Air is a better insulator than a heat transfer agent. The new ECM (electronically commutated motors) pump motors are basically at DC permanent magnet motor power draws [Taco & Grundfoss] these days.   Best of luck with this one.   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136                       www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  P Please consider the environment before printing this email.     From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 2:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace   Hello Wrenches, What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, although the transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Sep 8 04:52:26 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 02:52:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace In-Reply-To: <5b9337b4.1c69fb81.acae7.38bb@mx.google.com> References: <20180823203656.6C379108290@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <006701d43b3b$2a4d1130$7ee73390$@solarwork.com> <20180907143330.B594C107D72@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <5b9337b4.1c69fb81.acae7.38bb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2f0d9bc5-4f5b-9882-107c-fdd5ba8a2126@solarray.com> I started recommending people use the new ECM drive circ pumps. They use half the power and are a direct replacement.  Have your plumber check out the Taco e series, or the Grundfos Alpha series of circ pumps. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/7/18 8:45 PM, David Palumbo wrote: > > El Sid 10W DC pumps are great but in my experience they did not have > the flow and head “oomph” for long runs for the zones on our second > and third floors with our hydronic heating system (wood boiler). In > our off grid house we installed El Sid’s on all 4 zones in the late > 1980’s. We had recurring problems with the 2^nd and 3^rd floor zones > (long runs) becoming air bound repeatedly after a couple of months of > heavy use in the winter. Basement and 1^st floor zones did not have > this problem. I consulted with some plumbing and heating folks and > ended up replacing the 2^nd and 3^rd floor zone El Sid’s with 115VAC > Grundfos circ pumps. Problem solved, no more air lock problems. I had > a hard time understanding that while the El Sid’s worked OK on the > longer, higher head zones but did not have the power to avoid the air > lock situation in our heating system. One of the plumbers explained it > to me twenty something years ago BUT I don’t recall his explanation > now. Maybe some wrench with more hydronic chops than I can explain it. > > Dave Palumbo > > Independent Power > > Hyde Park, VT > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > *From: *Bradley Bassett > *Sent: *Friday, September 7, 2018 10:09 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches > *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace > > I have multiple ElSid pumps in my heating system which have been > running for just about 15 years without the slightest hitch. At 10W > each they are hard to beat, but they do need DC so a power supply is > needed. I ran them off 24VDC direct from the battery for the first 10 > years and from a small MeanWell power supply for the last 5 years. My > only complaint is that when there are 4 of them running it sounds like > a miniature WWII bomber. No loud enough to hear outside of the utility > room but something to keep in mind. > > Brad Bassett > > AEE Solar > > Brad > > On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 7:33 AM Drake > > wrote: > > Dana, > > Your comments, and other comments on this list have made me see > the light. We are going to go with a boiler. > > What is the best source of equipment for this application these days? > > Many years ago, I helped install a system in Colorado using El Sid > pumps, with guidance from you, if you recall this ancient history. > > Cheers, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > > > At 07:43 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote: > > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0068_01D43B08.DFB2A130" > Content-Language: en-us > > Drake, > All the conventional units I have amp clamped over the years > are pushing 900-900+ watts per hour. I do not recommend them > ever & to date I have never found a lower wattage blower. I > would assume that a permanent magnet motor would fit this > suggestion, but I have not found one. > For off grid I recommend: Radiant floor heat first and hot > water base board second long before hot air. Air is a better > insulator than a heat transfer agent. > The new ECM (electronically commutated motors) pump motors are > basically at DC permanent magnet motor power draws [Taco & > Grundfoss] these days. > > Best of luck with this one. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > *Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > _*P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf > Of *Drake > *Sent:* Thursday, August 23, 2018 2:37 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace > > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for > an off grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a > phantom load, although the transformer for the thermostat may > not be avoidable. Low blower current would be preferable. The > furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > OH License 44810 > > CO License 3773 > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > > 740-448-7328 > > http://athens-electric.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 08:19:43 2018 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 07:19:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika In-Reply-To: <10793554-dc2a-5ab9-09ef-f808bfbe10f9@solarray.com> References: <10793554-dc2a-5ab9-09ef-f808bfbe10f9@solarray.com> Message-ID: I met that Pika crew at the energy fair in WI this year. Had a long talk with them. They showed me their System and answered questions. Seems cool. But, I have to agree Jay, after this silicon energy and Tenk solar debacle in MN, I’ll only use proven equipment. I’ll be walking away from jobs if people want the new shinny thing. It is absolutely not worth the risk. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 7, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Ray wrote: > > I would highly recommend using proven equipment from the long term off grid companies: Magnum, Midnite, Outback, Schneider, etc. and stick with a DC coupled array and lead acid batteries for now. I just got back from inspecting two Li+ off grid systems done by a GT dealer, and I saw numerous issues that included the charge controllers not agreeing with the BMS system, the BMS system monitoring having numerous programming and connectivity issues, the battery overall being vastly undersized, the manufacturer (Adara) dropping support for their battery, and the customers being hopping mad. Most off grid folks own guns; not a good combination to walk into. > My advice, is that if an installer hasn't lived off grid and/ or dedicated their practice to off grid systems, they should stay out of it and quit ruining peoples' lives. GT is usually never a life or death matter, but Off grid can be, when they are snowed in with no fridge, no water, no heat, and no communications. Reliability is goal #1, Simplicity is #2. > Good Luck, > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 >> On 9/7/18 11:03 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: >> Wrenches, >> >> I am trying to design a Pika off-grid system. The issue is that they currently have no way to charge from a generator. Has anyone ever installed one set up for zero grid export and connected the generator to the grid input? >> >> Would LG chem or another manufacturer be a better choice? >> >> Thanks, >> Kris >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 17:35:32 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 17:35:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika In-Reply-To: References: <10793554-dc2a-5ab9-09ef-f808bfbe10f9@solarray.com> Message-ID: My only experience with Pika off grid was their Wind turbine, B-801 charge controller, and their early PV link. That combination worked great. Unfortunately the market was not big enough and the big market is grid tie so they discontinued the wind turbine and B801 which was a 380vdc to 48 vdc voltage converter. I had almost two wonderful years with that wind turbine almost eliminating my winter generator time until I was forced to sell it to one of my customers as part of a large upgrade of his system which required decommissioning his Bergey XL.1 (24 v) . I took down the T-701 (1.5kw rated in 23 mph wind and often produced 2.9 kw in high winds with perfect dc voltage regulation and put it on the customers tower and added the B-801 to his wall of equipment charging 12 Aquion batteries. See attachment. To this day, The turbine has been working flawlessly for the last year at its' new home. The B801 was just to the right in the photo along with a 16 position combiner taking care of the 12 battery breakers and the one wind input breaker. By the way, anyone interested in more info about the Pika wind turbine , contact me off line. I would like other feedback about that wind turbine. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service John.blittersdorf at gmail.com or cvsolar at aol.com 802-770-8625 voice or text On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 8:19 AM Solar wrote: > I met that Pika crew at the energy fair in WI this year. Had a long talk > with them. They showed me their System and answered questions. Seems cool. > But, I have to agree Jay, after this silicon energy and Tenk solar debacle > in MN, I’ll only use proven equipment. I’ll be walking away from jobs if > people want the new shinny thing. It is absolutely not worth the risk. > > Jesse Dahl > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 7, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Ray wrote: > > I would highly recommend using proven equipment from the long term off > grid companies: Magnum, Midnite, Outback, Schneider, etc. and stick with a > DC coupled array and lead acid batteries for now. I just got back from > inspecting two Li+ off grid systems done by a GT dealer, and I saw numerous > issues that included the charge controllers not agreeing with the BMS > system, the BMS system monitoring having numerous programming and > connectivity issues, the battery overall being vastly undersized, the > manufacturer (Adara) dropping support for their battery, and the customers > being hopping mad. Most off grid folks own guns; not a good combination to > walk into. > > My advice, is that if an installer hasn't lived off grid and/ or dedicated > their practice to off grid systems, they should stay out of it and quit > ruining peoples' lives. GT is usually never a life or death matter, but > Off grid can be, when they are snowed in with no fridge, no water, no heat, > and no communications. Reliability is goal #1, Simplicity is #2. > > Good Luck, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/7/18 11:03 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I am trying to design a Pika off-grid system. The issue is that they > currently have no way to charge from a generator. Has anyone ever > installed one set up for zero grid export and connected the generator to > the grid input? > > Would LG chem or another manufacturer be a better choice? > > Thanks, > Kris > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2017-07-26 16.53.24.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1158970 bytes Desc: not available URL: From will at solarenergy.org Sat Sep 8 21:20:07 2018 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 21:20:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator In-Reply-To: References: <10793554-dc2a-5ab9-09ef-f808bfbe10f9@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hello Off-grid Wrenches, After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our Sunfrost RF-12. We'd like to upgrade to something a little more modern that doesn't leak water all over the floor when it's humid For you off-grid installers what's your go to refrigerator recommendation? I'm going to go through the energy star website but I thought I'd consult with the experts too. I'd like to find something that has a form factor similar to the Sunfrost although I know that's going to be hard to find. Thanks, Will White -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 21:26:49 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 18:26:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator In-Reply-To: References: <10793554-dc2a-5ab9-09ef-f808bfbe10f9@solarray.com> Message-ID: Will This has been on topic many times and im sure it will be many more times, l have many off grid customers that at one point said the same thing. I asume you have 120 vac, just measure the space you have and go to your local appliance store and pick one out that has the good low usage compressor meets all the energy star ratings and will fit. I have customers that have two big stainless units living off grid and thats just one well two of the many common house hold items now that are energy eff. Jerry On Sat, Sep 8, 2018, 6:20 PM Will White wrote: > Hello Off-grid Wrenches, > > After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our Sunfrost RF-12. We'd like > to upgrade to something a little more modern that doesn't leak water all > over the floor when it's humid > > For you off-grid installers what's your go to refrigerator recommendation? > I'm going to go through the energy star website but I thought I'd consult > with the experts too. I'd like to find something that has a form factor > similar to the Sunfrost although I know that's going to be hard to find. > > Thanks, > Will White > > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power > the world with renewable energy.* > > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar at 4fast.net Sun Sep 9 01:20:27 2018 From: solar at 4fast.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 22:20:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator In-Reply-To: References: <10793554-dc2a-5ab9-09ef-f808bfbe10f9@solarray.com> Message-ID: <70D9CFB0-0E0E-43BC-8929-E114E0167B5E@4fast.net> Assuming you have a sinewave inverter t this point, I agree with Jerry about going to a 120vac fridge. However, I would suggest going to your computer before the appliance store. For Kathleen and I, Energy Star rated is the starting point. There is some really good info here: https://library.cee1.org/content/qualifying-product-lists-residential-refrigerators If you can find a good one with defeat-able auto defrost, that’ll save a bunch’o watts. Within the ES ratings there are still models which are more or less efficient than others. Whatever you get will use more power than your RF12, but that’s partly because you probably won’t find a good fridge under 18-19 cu.ft. You will love the 35-40% increase in capacity, but it isn’t a completely free lunch. So throw a few more watts out in the sun. Hell, at today’s PV prices, throw up a couple more kilowatts! Good Luck, Bob-O On Sep 8, 2018, at 6:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Will This has been on topic many times and im sure it will be many more times, l have many off grid customers that at one point said the same thing. I asume you have 120 vac, just measure the space you have and go to your local appliance store and pick one out that has the good low usage compressor meets all the energy star ratings and will fit. I have customers that have two big stainless units living off grid and thats just one well two of the many common house hold items now that are energy eff. Jerry On Sat, Sep 8, 2018, 6:20 PM Will White > wrote: Hello Off-grid Wrenches, After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our Sunfrost RF-12. We'd like to upgrade to something a little more modern that doesn't leak water all over the floor when it's humid For you off-grid installers what's your go to refrigerator recommendation? I'm going to go through the energy star website but I thought I'd consult with the experts too. I'd like to find something that has a form factor similar to the Sunfrost although I know that's going to be hard to find. Thanks, Will White -- Will White Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy. Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at wagonmaker.com Sun Sep 9 01:25:57 2018 From: tom at wagonmaker.com (Tom at wagonmaker) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 19:25:57 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator In-Reply-To: References: <10793554-dc2a-5ab9-09ef-f808bfbe10f9@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1A7E2000B1FC4986B1E5410BFA9C326C@TomsHP> Almost 25 years ago, when we built our off grid home, we looked at the limited options then available one of which was the Sunfrost. After looking into things like relative efficiency, initial purchase cost and system requirements, it became pretty obvious that the Sunfrost was an overpriced option that had too many problems. For half the cost we bought a Vestfrost and then simply added a bit more generating capacity to our array at far less than the difference in cost between the Vestfrost and the Sunfrost. It was the best decision on appliances we ever made. The 120 vac Vestfrost was a bit less efficient but since we were generating our own power that difference was irrelevant as the cost to provide the necessary capacity to handle the efficiency difference actually resulted in us saving money and also gaining a very reliable appliance. That was then and the Vestfrost was massively more efficient than the standard refrigerators then available. Now, that model of Vestfrost is nowhere near as efficient as the newest Energy Star compliant refrigerators available at most appliance stores. Don’t waste time or money searching for another DC refrigerator, there simply isn’t any benefit. It will be cheaper to buy off the shelf and if you have to add a bit of generating capacity getting another panel on your system will be way cheaper than than it was for us back in the day...and back then it was still the better option. Tom From: Will White Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2018 3:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator Hello Off-grid Wrenches, After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our Sunfrost RF-12. We'd like to upgrade to something a little more modern that doesn't leak water all over the floor when it's humid For you off-grid installers what's your go to refrigerator recommendation? I'm going to go through the energy star website but I thought I'd consult with the experts too. I'd like to find something that has a form factor similar to the Sunfrost although I know that's going to be hard to find. Thanks, Will White -- Will White Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy. Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Sun Sep 9 09:55:50 2018 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 07:55:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Removing graffiti from modules Message-ID: <53BF8331-37C9-4445-9D5A-44D1234BAD5F@skyfireenergy.com> Hey everyone, Do any of you have experience removing graffiti from solar modules? Any tips for do’s and dont’s? Thanks Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 10:05:22 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 07:05:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator In-Reply-To: <1A7E2000B1FC4986B1E5410BFA9C326C@TomsHP> References: <10793554-dc2a-5ab9-09ef-f808bfbe10f9@solarray.com> <1A7E2000B1FC4986B1E5410BFA9C326C@TomsHP> Message-ID: <706F7379-358B-4F9A-ADD5-B34D61BA0570@gmail.com> HI Will, Here are my recommendations 1. try to find out how loud it is. Most new ones are much louder than your old SF. Fans and all that. And they do run a lot of hours per day due to small compressor size. 2. get one that is repairable locally, much higher failures today than 10 years ago. 3. energy star 4. features that you want. The only features we’ve got are ice maker. Love it and wouldn’t get one without it. 5. As to defeating the defrost, if its even possible I would argue against doing that. While yes it uses more energy on any given day for auto defrost, overall unless you defrost often, ice is a wonderful insulator and it can and will end up using more energy to keep the freezer cold with an ice build up. And you won’t be able to turn off the door seal heaters, defrosters in the fridge part etc. And heck isn’t that also part of the fun of the new fridge, no defrost? Happy shopping jay peltz power > On Sep 8, 2018, at 10:25 PM, Tom at wagonmaker wrote: > > Almost 25 years ago, when we built our off grid home, we looked at the limited options then available one of which was the Sunfrost. After looking into things like relative efficiency, initial purchase cost and system requirements, it became pretty obvious that the Sunfrost was an overpriced option that had too many problems. For half the cost we bought a Vestfrost and then simply added a bit more generating capacity to our array at far less than the difference in cost between the Vestfrost and the Sunfrost. It was the best decision on appliances we ever made. The 120 vac Vestfrost was a bit less efficient but since we were generating our own power that difference was irrelevant as the cost to provide the necessary capacity to handle the efficiency difference actually resulted in us saving money and also gaining a very reliable appliance. > > That was then and the Vestfrost was massively more efficient than the standard refrigerators then available. Now, that model of Vestfrost is nowhere near as efficient as the newest Energy Star compliant refrigerators available at most appliance stores. Don’t waste time or money searching for another DC refrigerator, there simply isn’t any benefit. It will be cheaper to buy off the shelf and if you have to add a bit of generating capacity getting another panel on your system will be way cheaper than than it was for us back in the day...and back then it was still the better option. > > Tom > > > > From: Will White <> > Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2018 3:20 PM > To: RE-wrenches <> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator > > Hello Off-grid Wrenches, > > After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our Sunfrost RF-12. We'd like to upgrade to something a little more modern that doesn't leak water all over the floor when it's humid > > For you off-grid installers what's your go to refrigerator recommendation? I'm going to go through the energy star website but I thought I'd consult with the experts too. I'd like to find something that has a form factor similar to the Sunfrost although I know that's going to be hard to find. > > Thanks, > Will White > > > > -- > Will White > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org <> > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy. > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 11:16:33 2018 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 11:16:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator In-Reply-To: References: <10793554-dc2a-5ab9-09ef-f808bfbe10f9@solarray.com> Message-ID: Will, not only did we get tired of the lack of freezer space and water on the floor (or creating a science experiment in the back of the refrigerator when the 1/4" drain got plugged up with food scraps), but all the hardware breaking or shelves crashing was a major annoyance... After the new fridge regs came in about a decade ago, we bought a Kenmore that had a rating of less than 400 kwhs/year. The last time I measured it, it took about one kwh/day, which turned out to be about 4/10ths of a kwh more than our sunfrost - a pretty good trade off, I thought. And then we bought a fairly large Kenmore chest freezer that took about 9/10ths of a kwh/day to run. We've been quite happy with them since. I know the market changes regularly and that there are other brands that may be at least as good for the money at this point, but I've rarely been disappointed with Kenmore appliances I've bought. Good luck and happy shopping. Howie On Sat, Sep 8, 2018, 9:20 PM Will White wrote: > Hello Off-grid Wrenches, > > After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our Sunfrost RF-12. We'd like > to upgrade to something a little more modern that doesn't leak water all > over the floor when it's humid > > For you off-grid installers what's your go to refrigerator recommendation? > I'm going to go through the energy star website but I thought I'd consult > with the experts too. I'd like to find something that has a form factor > similar to the Sunfrost although I know that's going to be hard to find. > > Thanks, > Will White > > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power > the world with renewable energy.* > > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun Sep 9 11:32:49 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 08:32:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Removing graffiti from modules In-Reply-To: <53BF8331-37C9-4445-9D5A-44D1234BAD5F@skyfireenergy.com> References: <53BF8331-37C9-4445-9D5A-44D1234BAD5F@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: Help us with this Benn.  Are we talking spray paint, airgun, acrylic, crayon, lipstick......?  Recently, due to not having any rain for 3.5 months in  smokey with ash No. California, I referred to the REC website for cleaning PVs and they didn't suggest anything stronger than  a solution of "/a mild biological and biodegradable washing-up liquid may be used on the panels/". They did go on to say for stubborn areas that 10% iso-propyl alcohol could be used. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 9/9/2018 6:55 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Hey everyone, > Do any of you have experience removing graffiti from solar modules? > Any tips for do’s and dont’s? > Thanks > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Sun Sep 9 12:40:54 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 09:40:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Removing graffiti from modules In-Reply-To: References: <53BF8331-37C9-4445-9D5A-44D1234BAD5F@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: If your modules don't have anti reflective coating then you can scrape them with a sharp razor blade scraper. Goo Gone or one of the similar products might help at well. August Luminalt On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 8:30 AM frenergy wrote: > Help us with this Benn. Are we talking spray paint, airgun, acrylic, > crayon, lipstick......? Recently, due to not having any rain for 3.5 > months in smokey with ash No. California, I referred to the REC website > for cleaning PVs and they didn't suggest anything stronger than a solution > of "*a mild biological and biodegradable washing-up liquid may be used on > the panels*". They did go on to say for stubborn areas that 10% > iso-propyl alcohol could be used. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 9/9/2018 6:55 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Hey everyone, > Do any of you have experience removing graffiti from solar modules? > Any tips for do’s and dont’s? > Thanks > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-260660901124567865_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tom at wagonmaker.com Sun Sep 9 13:14:28 2018 From: tom at wagonmaker.com (tom at wagonmaker.com) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2018 07:14:28 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator In-Reply-To: References: <10793554-dc2a-5ab9-09ef-f808bfbe10f9@solarray.com> Message-ID: Kenmore did have good appliances for years but a great many of them were made by other manufacturers and marketed under the Kenmore label. But those days are over and recently Kenmore has been rumored to be either sold by Sears or simply disappear. Sears itself may not last long either. I'd suggest a different brand, just to be safe. Tom On 2018-09-09 05:16, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Will, not only did we get tired of the lack of freezer space and water > on the floor (or creating a science experiment in the back of the > refrigerator when the 1/4" drain got plugged up with food scraps), but > all the hardware breaking or shelves crashing was a major annoyance... > After the new fridge regs came in about a decade ago, we bought a > Kenmore that had a rating of less than 400 kwhs/year. The last time I > measured it, it took about one kwh/day, which turned out to be about > 4/10ths of a kwh more than our sunfrost - a pretty good trade off, I > thought. And then we bought a fairly large Kenmore chest freezer that > took about 9/10ths of a kwh/day to run. We've been quite happy with > them since. I know the market changes regularly and that there are > other brands that may be at least as good for the money at this point, > but I've rarely been disappointed with Kenmore appliances I've bought. > Good luck and happy shopping. > Howie > > On Sat, Sep 8, 2018, 9:20 PM Will White wrote: > >> Hello Off-grid Wrenches, >> >> After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our Sunfrost RF-12. We'd >> like to upgrade to something a little more modern that doesn't leak >> water all over the floor when it's humid >> >> For you off-grid installers what's your go to refrigerator >> recommendation? I'm going to go through the energy star website but >> I thought I'd consult with the experts too. I'd like to find >> something that has a form factor similar to the Sunfrost although I >> know that's going to be hard to find. >> >> Thanks, >> Will White >> >> -- >> >> WILL WHITE >> Curriculum Developer >> >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> >> w: www.solarenergy.org [1] >> p: 802-272-3092 >> >> PV Installation Professional >> # 093006-34 >> >> _FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could >> power the world with renewable energy._ >> >> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change >> [2]. _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [3] >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org [4] > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://www.solarenergy.org/ > [2] http://solarenergy.org/donate > [3] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > [4] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From ray at solarray.com Sun Sep 9 14:12:49 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 12:12:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Removing graffiti from modules In-Reply-To: References: <53BF8331-37C9-4445-9D5A-44D1234BAD5F@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: I've got a can of GooGone Graffiti remover, that starts softening spray paint in 30 seconds, but obviously, it is really strong. I'd only use it with no anti-reflective coating and put masking tape over all the edge seals.  I've used a plastic scour pad, like those safe for Teflon pans.  What losers, at least they didn't throw a rock through them.  Do you have any pictures? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/9/18 10:40 AM, August Goers wrote: > If your modules don't have anti reflective coating then you can scrape > them with a sharp razor blade scraper. Goo Gone or one of the similar > products might help at well. > > August > Luminalt > > > > On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 8:30 AM frenergy > wrote: > > Help us with this Benn.  Are we talking spray paint, airgun, > acrylic, crayon, lipstick......?  Recently, due to not having any > rain for 3.5 months in  smokey with ash No. California, I referred > to the REC website for cleaning PVs and they didn't suggest > anything stronger than  a solution of "/a mild biological and > biodegradable washing-up liquid may be used on the panels/".  They > did go on to say for stubborn areas that 10% iso-propyl alcohol > could be used. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > On 9/9/2018 6:55 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >> Hey everyone, >> Do any of you have experience removing graffiti from solar modules? >> Any tips for do’s and dont’s? >> Thanks >> >> Benn Kilburn >> SkyFire Energy >> 780-906-7807 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -- > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > <#m_-260660901124567865_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Sun Sep 9 16:27:45 2018 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 14:27:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Removing graffiti from modules In-Reply-To: References: <53BF8331-37C9-4445-9D5A-44D1234BAD5F@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <52F0411A-1CBB-4D19-8B23-144B304365A7@skyfireenergy.com> Bill, It’s white, does that help? ;) Kidding aside, I couldn’t tell you precisely what type of paint they used. These are CSI mods and their manual doesn’t mention using anything other than water and a “gentle cleaning implement” (soft sponge, for example). I have seen some module manuals mention using a mild soap. I’m going to see what Canadian Solar suggests but this group is always worth checking with. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Sep 9, 2018, at 9:32 AM, frenergy wrote: > > Help us with this Benn. Are we talking spray paint, airgun, acrylic, crayon, lipstick......? Recently, due to not having any rain for 3.5 months in smokey with ash No. California, I referred to the REC website for cleaning PVs and they didn't suggest anything stronger than a solution of "a mild biological and biodegradable washing-up liquid may be used on the panels". They did go on to say for stubborn areas that 10% iso-propyl alcohol could be used. > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net >> On 9/9/2018 6:55 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >> Hey everyone, >> Do any of you have experience removing graffiti from solar modules? >> Any tips for do’s and dont’s? >> Thanks >> >> Benn Kilburn >> SkyFire Energy >> 780-906-7807 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -- > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_3152.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 70418 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Sep 9 12:10:08 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2018 09:10:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator In-Reply-To: <70D9CFB0-0E0E-43BC-8929-E114E0167B5E@4fast.net> References: <10793554-dc2a-5ab9-09ef-f808bfbe10f9@solarray.com> <70D9CFB0-0E0E-43BC-8929-E114E0167B5E@4fast.net> Message-ID: I like soft start and programmable defrost during daylight hours. Look at the LG 22 cubic foot inverter. Also when looking at energy star keep in mind they inflated the US numbers 4 years or so back, and the Canadian are the old numbers. I look at both! If in a ambient temperature neutral home I use the Canadian numbers. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 22:20:27 -0700, Bob-O Schultze wrote: Assuming you have a sinewave inverter t this point, I agree with Jerry about going to a 120vac fridge. However, I would suggest going to your computer before the appliance store. For Kathleen and I, Energy Star rated is the starting point. There is some really good info here: https://library.cee1.org/content/qualifying-product-lists-residential-refrigerators [3] If you can find a good one with defeat-able auto defrost, that'll save a bunch'o watts. Within the ES ratings there are still models which are more or less efficient than others. Whatever you get will use more power than your RF12, but that's partly because you probably won't find a good fridge under 18-19 cu.ft. You will love the 35-40% increase in capacity, but it isn't a completely free lunch. So throw a few more watts out in the sun. Hell, at today's PV prices, throw up a couple more kilowatts! Good Luck, Bob-O On Sep 8, 2018, at 6:26 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Will This has been on topic many times and im sure it will be many more times, l have many off grid customers that at one point said the same thing. I asume you have 120 vac, just measure the space you have and go to your local appliance store and pick one out that has the good low usage compressor meets all the energy star ratings and will fit. I have customers that have two big stainless units living off grid and thats just one well two of the many common house hold items now that are energy eff. Jerry On Sat, Sep 8, 2018, 6:20 PM Will White wrote: Hello Off-grid Wrenches, After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our Sunfrost RF-12. We'd like to upgrade to something a little more modern that doesn't leak water all over the floor when it's humid For you off-grid installers what's your go to refrigerator recommendation? I'm going to go through the energy star website but I thought I'd consult with the experts too. I'd like to find something that has a form factor similar to the Sunfrost although I know that's going to be hard to find. Thanks, Will White -- WILL WHITE Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org [6] w: www.solarenergy.org [7] p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 _FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy._ Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change [8]. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://library.cee1.org/content/qualifying-product-lists-residential-refrigerators [4] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [5] mailto:will at solarenergy.org [6] mailto:will at solarenergy.org [7] http://www.solarenergy.org/ [8] http://solarenergy.org/donate [9] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [12] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [14] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sun Sep 9 17:29:04 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 15:29:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator Message-ID: <003701d44884$2352f830$69f8e890$@solarwork.com> Our last off grid ref was an LG @ 512 KWHR/year and the latest ref is an LG /icemaker [wahoo] @ 520 KWHR/year. Freezers are: Sears chest freezer with 2” of pink board foam glued to the top & a 16 CuFt Sunfrost 24 VDC on an Iota power supply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Tom at wagonmaker Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2018 11:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator Almost 25 years ago, when we built our off grid home, we looked at the limited options then available one of which was the Sunfrost. After looking into things like relative efficiency, initial purchase cost and system requirements, it became pretty obvious that the Sunfrost was an overpriced option that had too many problems. For half the cost we bought a Vestfrost and then simply added a bit more generating capacity to our array at far less than the difference in cost between the Vestfrost and the Sunfrost. It was the best decision on appliances we ever made. The 120 vac Vestfrost was a bit less efficient but since we were generating our own power that difference was irrelevant as the cost to provide the necessary capacity to handle the efficiency difference actually resulted in us saving money and also gaining a very reliable appliance. That was then and the Vestfrost was massively more efficient than the standard refrigerators then available. Now, that model of Vestfrost is nowhere near as efficient as the newest Energy Star compliant refrigerators available at most appliance stores. Don’t waste time or money searching for another DC refrigerator, there simply isn’t any benefit. It will be cheaper to buy off the shelf and if you have to add a bit of generating capacity getting another panel on your system will be way cheaper than than it was for us back in the day...and back then it was still the better option. Tom From: Will White Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2018 3:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator Hello Off-grid Wrenches, After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our Sunfrost RF-12. We'd like to upgrade to something a little more modern that doesn't leak water all over the floor when it's humid For you off-grid installers what's your go to refrigerator recommendation? I'm going to go through the energy star website but I thought I'd consult with the experts too. I'd like to find something that has a form factor similar to the Sunfrost although I know that's going to be hard to find. Thanks, Will White -- Will White Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy. Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change. _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Sep 9 18:31:41 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 16:31:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Removing graffiti from modules In-Reply-To: <52F0411A-1CBB-4D19-8B23-144B304365A7@skyfireenergy.com> References: <53BF8331-37C9-4445-9D5A-44D1234BAD5F@skyfireenergy.com> <52F0411A-1CBB-4D19-8B23-144B304365A7@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <951d0ba5-3fcc-21b2-d747-b7999e4396c9@solarray.com> How aggravating,  they really worked hard to get up there too. Have you tried a little test spot with various methods?  WHo knows it might come off with soap and water and some scrubbing. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/9/18 2:27 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Bill, > It’s white, does that help? ;) > Kidding aside, I couldn’t tell you precisely what type of paint they > used. > These are CSI mods and their manual doesn’t mention using anything > other than water and a “gentle cleaning implement” (soft sponge, for > example). I have seen some module manuals mention using a mild soap. > > I’m going to see what Canadian Solar suggests but this group is always > worth checking with. > IMG_3152.JPG > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > > On Sep 9, 2018, at 9:32 AM, frenergy > wrote: > >> Help us with this Benn.  Are we talking spray paint, airgun, acrylic, >> crayon, lipstick......?  Recently, due to not having any rain for 3.5 >> months in  smokey with ash No. California, I referred to the REC >> website for cleaning PVs and they didn't suggest anything stronger >> than  a solution of "/a mild biological and biodegradable washing-up >> liquid may be used on the panels/".  They did go on to say for >> stubborn areas that 10% iso-propyl alcohol could be used. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> On 9/9/2018 6:55 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >>> Hey everyone, >>> Do any of you have experience removing graffiti from solar modules? >>> Any tips for do’s and dont’s? >>> Thanks >>> >>> Benn Kilburn >>> SkyFire Energy >>> 780-906-7807 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> >> >> >> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_3152.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 70418 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 19:10:09 2018 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 17:10:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator In-Reply-To: <003701d44884$2352f830$69f8e890$@solarwork.com> References: <003701d44884$2352f830$69f8e890$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I know this isn't what Will is looking for, but just in case anyone still needs a 12/24vdc model frig, I got an ARB 60 qt at the beginning of the summer, and it's been a champ. Especially for mobile applications, it doesn't need to be level. http://store.arbusa.com/Fridges-C11.aspx Temp setable from zero up, I'm using it as a frig set at 33 degrees F. It's been in a hot van running all summer, using about 100 to 150 watthrs per day, less than rated, pulls about 3 amps at 12 volts. I tested out deep freeze mode and it was closer to 400 wh/day, but starting with hot water and freezing it solid. I really like the design of the ARB too. It's got good dimensions for food and beverages. 90 beers! I've got a 24v Novakool at home that's been running solid for about 15 years. But when it putters off for good I'm replacing it with an ARB... Rebekah On Sun, Sep 9, 2018, 3:29 PM Dana wrote: > Our last off grid ref was an LG @ 512 KWHR/year and the latest ref is an LG > > /icemaker [wahoo] @ 520 KWHR/year. > > Freezers are: Sears chest freezer with 2” of pink board foam glued to the > top & a 16 CuFt Sunfrost 24 VDC on an Iota power supply. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Tom at wagonmaker > *Sent:* Saturday, September 08, 2018 11:26 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator > > > > Almost 25 years ago, when we built our off grid home, we looked at the > limited options then available one of which was the Sunfrost. After > looking into things like relative efficiency, initial purchase cost and > system requirements, it became pretty obvious that the Sunfrost was an > overpriced option that had too many problems. For half the cost we bought > a Vestfrost and then simply added a bit more generating capacity to our > array at far less than the difference in cost between the Vestfrost and the > Sunfrost. It was the best decision on appliances we ever made. The 120 > vac Vestfrost was a bit less efficient but since we were generating our own > power that difference was irrelevant as the cost to provide the necessary > capacity to handle the efficiency difference actually resulted in us saving > money and also gaining a very reliable appliance. > > That was then and the Vestfrost was massively more efficient than the > standard refrigerators then available. Now, that model of Vestfrost is > nowhere near as efficient as the newest Energy Star compliant refrigerators > available at most appliance stores. Don’t waste time or money searching > for another DC refrigerator, there simply isn’t any benefit. It will be > cheaper to buy off the shelf and if you have to add a bit of generating > capacity getting another panel on your system will be way cheaper than than > it was for us back in the day...and back then it was still the better > option. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > *From:* Will White > > *Sent:* Saturday, September 8, 2018 3:20 PM > > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator > > > > Hello Off-grid Wrenches, > > > > After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our Sunfrost RF-12. We'd like > to upgrade to something a little more modern that doesn't leak water all > over the floor when it's humid > > > > For you off-grid installers what's your go to refrigerator recommendation? > I'm going to go through the energy star website but I thought I'd consult > with the experts too. I'd like to find something that has a form factor > similar to the Sunfrost although I know that's going to be hard to find. > > > > Thanks, > > Will White > > > > > > > > -- > > *Will White* > > Curriculum Developer > > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > > w: www.solarenergy.org > > p: 802-272-3092 > > > > PV Installation Professional > > # 093006-34 > > > > *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power > the world with renewable energy.* > > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ian.woofenden at homepower.com Sun Sep 9 19:24:51 2018 From: ian.woofenden at homepower.com (Ian Woofenden) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 16:24:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator In-Reply-To: References: <003701d44884$2352f830$69f8e890$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <22AC73FA-BC00-432A-948E-16897BD0ED73@homepower.com> It’s also worth mentioning SunDanzer; they has upright AC & DC fridges, plus chest models. David Bergeron is very responsive & helpful. While I agree w/ the advice for most people to go conventional & AC, there is still a place for Sun Frost-like products. My SF RF-12 is still running from 1984, & a SunDanzer freezer for at least 10 years now. DC can still make sense in specific applications, & then, some of us still don’t have an always-on inverter… ;-) Ian > On Sep 9, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > > I know this isn't what Will is looking for, but just in case anyone still needs a 12/24vdc model frig, I got an ARB 60 qt at the beginning of the summer, and it's been a champ. Especially for mobile applications, it doesn't need to be level. > > http://store.arbusa.com/Fridges-C11.aspx > > Temp setable from zero up, I'm using it as a frig set at 33 degrees F. It's been in a hot van running all summer, using about 100 to 150 watthrs per day, less than rated, pulls about 3 amps at 12 volts. I tested out deep freeze mode and it was closer to 400 wh/day, but starting with hot water and freezing it solid. I really like the design of the ARB too. It's got good dimensions for food and beverages. 90 beers! > > I've got a 24v Novakool at home that's been running solid for about 15 years. But when it putters off for good I'm replacing it with an ARB... > Rebekah > > On Sun, Sep 9, 2018, 3:29 PM Dana > wrote: > Our last off grid ref was an LG @ 512 KWHR/year and the latest ref is an LG > > /icemaker [wahoo] @ 520 KWHR/year. > > Freezers are: Sears chest freezer with 2” of pink board foam glued to the top & a 16 CuFt Sunfrost 24 VDC on an Iota power supply. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Tom at wagonmaker > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2018 11:26 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator > > > > Almost 25 years ago, when we built our off grid home, we looked at the limited options then available one of which was the Sunfrost. After looking into things like relative efficiency, initial purchase cost and system requirements, it became pretty obvious that the Sunfrost was an overpriced option that had too many problems. For half the cost we bought a Vestfrost and then simply added a bit more generating capacity to our array at far less than the difference in cost between the Vestfrost and the Sunfrost. It was the best decision on appliances we ever made. The 120 vac Vestfrost was a bit less efficient but since we were generating our own power that difference was irrelevant as the cost to provide the necessary capacity to handle the efficiency difference actually resulted in us saving money and also gaining a very reliable appliance. > > That was then and the Vestfrost was massively more efficient than the standard refrigerators then available. Now, that model of Vestfrost is nowhere near as efficient as the newest Energy Star compliant refrigerators available at most appliance stores. Don’t waste time or money searching for another DC refrigerator, there simply isn’t any benefit. It will be cheaper to buy off the shelf and if you have to add a bit of generating capacity getting another panel on your system will be way cheaper than than it was for us back in the day...and back then it was still the better option. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > From: Will White > > Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2018 3:20 PM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator > > > > Hello Off-grid Wrenches, > > > > After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our Sunfrost RF-12. We'd like to upgrade to something a little more modern that doesn't leak water all over the floor when it's humid > > > > For you off-grid installers what's your go to refrigerator recommendation? I'm going to go through the energy star website but I thought I'd consult with the experts too. I'd like to find something that has a form factor similar to the Sunfrost although I know that's going to be hard to find. > > > > Thanks, > > Will White > > > > > > > > -- > > Will White > > Curriculum Developer > > > > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > > w: www.solarenergy.org > > p: 802-272-3092 > > > > PV Installation Professional > > # 093006-34 > > > > FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy. > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Ian Woofenden Senior Editor, Home Power magazine Publishing Renewable Energy Information Since 1987 Print & Digital subscriptions: https://www.homepower.com/subscribe Download a sample issue: http://www.homepower.com/sample -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Mon Sep 10 09:14:47 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 09:14:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator In-Reply-To: <22AC73FA-BC00-432A-948E-16897BD0ED73@homepower.com> References: <003701d44884$2352f830$69f8e890$@solarwork.com> <22AC73FA-BC00-432A-948E-16897BD0ED73@homepower.com> Message-ID: Blomberg appliances offer full size AC fridges using 1.2A for the smaller unit to 1.9A full size. Both have freezers. LED interior lightning and use R600 which is alcohol. My clients LOVE these units and my batteries based systems do too! https://www.blombergappliances.com/products/refrigerators.html > On Sep 9, 2018, at 7:24 PM, Ian Woofenden wrote: > > It’s also worth mentioning SunDanzer; they has upright AC & DC fridges, plus chest models. David Bergeron is very responsive & helpful. > > While I agree w/ the advice for most people to go conventional & AC, there is still a place for Sun Frost-like products. My SF RF-12 is still running from 1984, & a SunDanzer freezer for at least 10 years now. DC can still make sense in specific applications, & then, some of us still don’t have an always-on inverter… ;-) > > Ian > >> On Sep 9, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Rebekah Hren > wrote: >> >> I know this isn't what Will is looking for, but just in case anyone still needs a 12/24vdc model frig, I got an ARB 60 qt at the beginning of the summer, and it's been a champ. Especially for mobile applications, it doesn't need to be level. >> >> http://store.arbusa.com/Fridges-C11.aspx >> >> Temp setable from zero up, I'm using it as a frig set at 33 degrees F. It's been in a hot van running all summer, using about 100 to 150 watthrs per day, less than rated, pulls about 3 amps at 12 volts. I tested out deep freeze mode and it was closer to 400 wh/day, but starting with hot water and freezing it solid. I really like the design of the ARB too. It's got good dimensions for food and beverages. 90 beers! >> >> I've got a 24v Novakool at home that's been running solid for about 15 years. But when it putters off for good I'm replacing it with an ARB... >> Rebekah >> >> On Sun, Sep 9, 2018, 3:29 PM Dana > wrote: >> Our last off grid ref was an LG @ 512 KWHR/year and the latest ref is an LG >> >> /icemaker [wahoo] @ 520 KWHR/year. >> >> Freezers are: Sears chest freezer with 2” of pink board foam glued to the top & a 16 CuFt Sunfrost 24 VDC on an Iota power supply. >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >> P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Tom at wagonmaker >> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2018 11:26 PM >> To: RE-wrenches > >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator >> >> >> >> Almost 25 years ago, when we built our off grid home, we looked at the limited options then available one of which was the Sunfrost. After looking into things like relative efficiency, initial purchase cost and system requirements, it became pretty obvious that the Sunfrost was an overpriced option that had too many problems. For half the cost we bought a Vestfrost and then simply added a bit more generating capacity to our array at far less than the difference in cost between the Vestfrost and the Sunfrost. It was the best decision on appliances we ever made. The 120 vac Vestfrost was a bit less efficient but since we were generating our own power that difference was irrelevant as the cost to provide the necessary capacity to handle the efficiency difference actually resulted in us saving money and also gaining a very reliable appliance. >> >> That was then and the Vestfrost was massively more efficient than the standard refrigerators then available. Now, that model of Vestfrost is nowhere near as efficient as the newest Energy Star compliant refrigerators available at most appliance stores. Don’t waste time or money searching for another DC refrigerator, there simply isn’t any benefit. It will be cheaper to buy off the shelf and if you have to add a bit of generating capacity getting another panel on your system will be way cheaper than than it was for us back in the day...and back then it was still the better option. >> >> >> >> Tom >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Will White >> >> Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2018 3:20 PM >> >> To: RE-wrenches >> >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator >> >> >> >> Hello Off-grid Wrenches, >> >> >> >> After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our Sunfrost RF-12. We'd like to upgrade to something a little more modern that doesn't leak water all over the floor when it's humid >> >> >> >> For you off-grid installers what's your go to refrigerator recommendation? I'm going to go through the energy star website but I thought I'd consult with the experts too. I'd like to find something that has a form factor similar to the Sunfrost although I know that's going to be hard to find. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Will White >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Will White >> >> Curriculum Developer >> >> >> >> >> >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> >> w: www.solarenergy.org >> >> p: 802-272-3092 >> >> >> >> PV Installation Professional >> >> # 093006-34 >> >> >> >> FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy. >> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > Ian Woofenden > > Senior Editor, Home Power magazine > Publishing Renewable Energy Information Since 1987 > Print & Digital subscriptions: https://www.homepower.com/subscribe > Download a sample issue: http://www.homepower.com/sample > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Sep 10 10:38:31 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 07:38:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Removing graffiti from modules In-Reply-To: <52F0411A-1CBB-4D19-8B23-144B304365A7@skyfireenergy.com> References: <53BF8331-37C9-4445-9D5A-44D1234BAD5F@skyfireenergy.com> <52F0411A-1CBB-4D19-8B23-144B304365A7@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: <8c8c82cf-494b-a2d9-ef8f-11af7baeae87@psln.com> Benn,             Ouch, that looks like quite a job.  Definitely looks like an airgun/airbrush job, probably acrylic.  After the cleaning, put up a wildlife camera just in case. Bill On 9/9/2018 1:27 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > Bill, > It’s white, does that help? ;) > Kidding aside, I couldn’t tell you precisely what type of paint they > used. > These are CSI mods and their manual doesn’t mention using anything > other than water and a “gentle cleaning implement” (soft sponge, for > example). I have seen some module manuals mention using a mild soap. > > I’m going to see what Canadian Solar suggests but this group is always > worth checking with. > IMG_3152.JPG > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > > On Sep 9, 2018, at 9:32 AM, frenergy > wrote: > >> Help us with this Benn.  Are we talking spray paint, airgun, acrylic, >> crayon, lipstick......?  Recently, due to not having any rain for 3.5 >> months in  smokey with ash No. California, I referred to the REC >> website for cleaning PVs and they didn't suggest anything stronger >> than  a solution of "/a mild biological and biodegradable washing-up >> liquid may be used on the panels/".  They did go on to say for >> stubborn areas that 10% iso-propyl alcohol could be used. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> On 9/9/2018 6:55 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: >>> Hey everyone, >>> Do any of you have experience removing graffiti from solar modules? >>> Any tips for do’s and dont’s? >>> Thanks >>> >>> Benn Kilburn >>> SkyFire Energy >>> 780-906-7807 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> >> >> >> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_3152.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 70418 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Mon Sep 10 11:07:29 2018 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 09:07:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Removing graffiti from modules In-Reply-To: <8c8c82cf-494b-a2d9-ef8f-11af7baeae87@psln.com> References: <53BF8331-37C9-4445-9D5A-44D1234BAD5F@skyfireenergy.com> <52F0411A-1CBB-4D19-8B23-144B304365A7@skyfireenergy.com> <8c8c82cf-494b-a2d9-ef8f-11af7baeae87@psln.com> Message-ID: Yeah, there is plenty more on the wall beside the array and on other walls/signs of the business. This is just what they did to the solar modules. Ray, no i don't believe the owner has tried anything, yet. Benn Kilburn CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc 14515 - 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 Direct: 780-784-1706 | Office: 780-474-8992 *www.skyfireenergy.com * On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 8:38 AM, frenergy wrote: > Benn, > > Ouch, that looks like quite a job. Definitely looks like an > airgun/airbrush job, probably acrylic. After the cleaning, put up a > wildlife camera just in case. > > Bill > > On 9/9/2018 1:27 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Bill, > It’s white, does that help? ;) > Kidding aside, I couldn’t tell you precisely what type of paint they used. > These are CSI mods and their manual doesn’t mention using anything other > than water and a “gentle cleaning implement” (soft sponge, for example). I > have seen some module manuals mention using a mild soap. > > I’m going to see what Canadian Solar suggests but this group is always > worth checking with. > [image: IMG_3152.JPG] > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > > On Sep 9, 2018, at 9:32 AM, frenergy wrote: > > Help us with this Benn. Are we talking spray paint, airgun, acrylic, > crayon, lipstick......? Recently, due to not having any rain for 3.5 > months in smokey with ash No. California, I referred to the REC website > for cleaning PVs and they didn't suggest anything stronger than a solution > of "*a mild biological and biodegradable washing-up liquid may be used on > the panels*". They did go on to say for stubborn areas that 10% > iso-propyl alcohol could be used. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 9/9/2018 6:55 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: > > Hey everyone, > Do any of you have experience removing graffiti from solar modules? > Any tips for do’s and dont’s? > Thanks > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-5658875307086996128_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_3152.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 70418 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Sep 10 11:47:10 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 09:47:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Removing graffiti from modules In-Reply-To: <8c8c82cf-494b-a2d9-ef8f-11af7baeae87@psln.com> References: <53BF8331-37C9-4445-9D5A-44D1234BAD5F@skyfireenergy.com> <52F0411A-1CBB-4D19-8B23-144B304365A7@skyfireenergy.com> <8c8c82cf-494b-a2d9-ef8f-11af7baeae87@psln.com> Message-ID: <004c01d4491d$89f76c80$9de64580$@solarwork.com> Wow, so sad that we have gone mainstream to be a victim of tagging knuckleheads! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Monday, September 10, 2018 8:39 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Removing graffiti from modules Benn, Ouch, that looks like quite a job. Definitely looks like an airgun/airbrush job, probably acrylic. After the cleaning, put up a wildlife camera just in case. Bill On 9/9/2018 1:27 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote: Bill, It’s white, does that help? ;) Kidding aside, I couldn’t tell you precisely what type of paint they used. These are CSI mods and their manual doesn’t mention using anything other than water and a “gentle cleaning implement” (soft sponge, for example). I have seen some module manuals mention using a mild soap. I’m going to see what Canadian Solar suggests but this group is always worth checking with. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 On Sep 9, 2018, at 9:32 AM, frenergy > wrote: Help us with this Benn. Are we talking spray paint, airgun, acrylic, crayon, lipstick......? Recently, due to not having any rain for 3.5 months in smokey with ash No. California, I referred to the REC website for cleaning PVs and they didn't suggest anything stronger than a solution of "a mild biological and biodegradable washing-up liquid may be used on the panels". They did go on to say for stubborn areas that 10% iso-propyl alcohol could be used. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 9/9/2018 6:55 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote: Hey everyone, Do any of you have experience removing graffiti from solar modules? Any tips for do’s and dont’s? Thanks Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Virus-free. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 70418 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 13:15:02 2018 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 17:15:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator In-Reply-To: References: <003701d44884$2352f830$69f8e890$@solarwork.com> <22AC73FA-BC00-432A-948E-16897BD0ED73@homepower.com>, Message-ID: (Small clarification)* R600 is actually Isobutane, and if anyone wants me to extol the virtues of these refrigerants for use in North America, don't stop me from ranting. Europe has been using these (R600-R601 and other blends) hydrocarbon based refrigerants for well over twenty years now with good success. They are more environmentally benign as well. Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Tump Sent: Monday, September 10, 2018 6:14:47 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator Blomberg appliances offer full size AC fridges using 1.2A for the smaller unit to 1.9A full size. Both have freezers. LED interior lightning and use R600 which is alcohol. My clients LOVE these units and my batteries based systems do too! https://www.blombergappliances.com/products/refrigerators.html On Sep 9, 2018, at 7:24 PM, Ian Woofenden > wrote: It’s also worth mentioning SunDanzer; they has upright AC & DC fridges, plus chest models. David Bergeron is very responsive & helpful. While I agree w/ the advice for most people to go conventional & AC, there is still a place for Sun Frost-like products. My SF RF-12 is still running from 1984, & a SunDanzer freezer for at least 10 years now. DC can still make sense in specific applications, & then, some of us still don’t have an always-on inverter… ;-) Ian On Sep 9, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Rebekah Hren > wrote: I know this isn't what Will is looking for, but just in case anyone still needs a 12/24vdc model frig, I got an ARB 60 qt at the beginning of the summer, and it's been a champ. Especially for mobile applications, it doesn't need to be level. http://store.arbusa.com/Fridges-C11.aspx Temp setable from zero up, I'm using it as a frig set at 33 degrees F. It's been in a hot van running all summer, using about 100 to 150 watthrs per day, less than rated, pulls about 3 amps at 12 volts. I tested out deep freeze mode and it was closer to 400 wh/day, but starting with hot water and freezing it solid. I really like the design of the ARB too. It's got good dimensions for food and beverages. 90 beers! I've got a 24v Novakool at home that's been running solid for about 15 years. But when it putters off for good I'm replacing it with an ARB... Rebekah On Sun, Sep 9, 2018, 3:29 PM Dana > wrote: Our last off grid ref was an LG @ 512 KWHR/year and the latest ref is an LG /icemaker [wahoo] @ 520 KWHR/year. Freezers are: Sears chest freezer with 2” of pink board foam glued to the top & a 16 CuFt Sunfrost 24 VDC on an Iota power supply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Tom at wagonmaker Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2018 11:26 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator Almost 25 years ago, when we built our off grid home, we looked at the limited options then available one of which was the Sunfrost. After looking into things like relative efficiency, initial purchase cost and system requirements, it became pretty obvious that the Sunfrost was an overpriced option that had too many problems. For half the cost we bought a Vestfrost and then simply added a bit more generating capacity to our array at far less than the difference in cost between the Vestfrost and the Sunfrost. It was the best decision on appliances we ever made. The 120 vac Vestfrost was a bit less efficient but since we were generating our own power that difference was irrelevant as the cost to provide the necessary capacity to handle the efficiency difference actually resulted in us saving money and also gaining a very reliable appliance. That was then and the Vestfrost was massively more efficient than the standard refrigerators then available. Now, that model of Vestfrost is nowhere near as efficient as the newest Energy Star compliant refrigerators available at most appliance stores. Don’t waste time or money searching for another DC refrigerator, there simply isn’t any benefit. It will be cheaper to buy off the shelf and if you have to add a bit of generating capacity getting another panel on your system will be way cheaper than than it was for us back in the day...and back then it was still the better option. Tom From: Will White Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2018 3:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator Hello Off-grid Wrenches, After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our Sunfrost RF-12. We'd like to upgrade to something a little more modern that doesn't leak water all over the floor when it's humid For you off-grid installers what's your go to refrigerator recommendation? I'm going to go through the energy star website but I thought I'd consult with the experts too. I'd like to find something that has a form factor similar to the Sunfrost although I know that's going to be hard to find. Thanks, Will White -- Will White Curriculum Developer [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=12H3Cu2gnX7TKTeETn1WsYqa8cp6gsEj1&revid=0B7yAwArWHgPbNzhGK00wT0diY1c1NWhlRlNocDRVd045eTFjPQ] e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy. Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change. ________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Ian Woofenden > Senior Editor, Home Power magazine Publishing Renewable Energy Information Since 1987 Print & Digital subscriptions: https://www.homepower.com/subscribe Download a sample issue: http://www.homepower.com/sample _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Sep 10 13:24:26 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 11:24:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator In-Reply-To: References: <003701d44884$2352f830$69f8e890$@solarwork.com> <22AC73FA-BC00-432A-948E-16897BD0ED73@homepower.com>, Message-ID: <006601d4492b$20a1c100$61e54300$@solarwork.com> Consumer reports has a review of refrigerators this month. They focus on energy rating, quality, & lifespan. Our last ref {LG} only lasted 8 years pretty sad for $2K in todays technology. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of MiJo Nels Sent: Monday, September 10, 2018 11:15 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator (Small clarification)* R600 is actually Isobutane, and if anyone wants me to extol the virtues of these refrigerants for use in North America, don't stop me from ranting. Europe has been using these (R600-R601 and other blends) hydrocarbon based refrigerants for well over twenty years now with good success. They are more environmentally benign as well. Get Outlook for Android _____ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Tump > Sent: Monday, September 10, 2018 6:14:47 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator Blomberg appliances offer full size AC fridges using 1.2A for the smaller unit to 1.9A full size. Both have freezers. LED interior lightning and use R600 which is alcohol. My clients LOVE these units and my batteries based systems do too! https://www.blombergappliances.com/products/refrigerators.html On Sep 9, 2018, at 7:24 PM, Ian Woofenden > wrote: It's also worth mentioning SunDanzer; they has upright AC & DC fridges, plus chest models. David Bergeron is very responsive & helpful. While I agree w/ the advice for most people to go conventional & AC, there is still a place for Sun Frost-like products. My SF RF-12 is still running from 1984, & a SunDanzer freezer for at least 10 years now. DC can still make sense in specific applications, & then, some of us still don't have an always-on inverter. ;-) Ian On Sep 9, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Rebekah Hren > wrote: I know this isn't what Will is looking for, but just in case anyone still needs a 12/24vdc model frig, I got an ARB 60 qt at the beginning of the summer, and it's been a champ. Especially for mobile applications, it doesn't need to be level. http://store.arbusa.com/Fridges-C11.aspx Temp setable from zero up, I'm using it as a frig set at 33 degrees F. It's been in a hot van running all summer, using about 100 to 150 watthrs per day, less than rated, pulls about 3 amps at 12 volts. I tested out deep freeze mode and it was closer to 400 wh/day, but starting with hot water and freezing it solid. I really like the design of the ARB too. It's got good dimensions for food and beverages. 90 beers! I've got a 24v Novakool at home that's been running solid for about 15 years. But when it putters off for good I'm replacing it with an ARB... Rebekah On Sun, Sep 9, 2018, 3:29 PM Dana > wrote: Our last off grid ref was an LG @ 512 KWHR/year and the latest ref is an LG /icemaker [wahoo] @ 520 KWHR/year. Freezers are: Sears chest freezer with 2" of pink board foam glued to the top & a 16 CuFt Sunfrost 24 VDC on an Iota power supply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Tom at wagonmaker Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2018 11:26 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator Almost 25 years ago, when we built our off grid home, we looked at the limited options then available one of which was the Sunfrost. After looking into things like relative efficiency, initial purchase cost and system requirements, it became pretty obvious that the Sunfrost was an overpriced option that had too many problems. For half the cost we bought a Vestfrost and then simply added a bit more generating capacity to our array at far less than the difference in cost between the Vestfrost and the Sunfrost. It was the best decision on appliances we ever made. The 120 vac Vestfrost was a bit less efficient but since we were generating our own power that difference was irrelevant as the cost to provide the necessary capacity to handle the efficiency difference actually resulted in us saving money and also gaining a very reliable appliance. That was then and the Vestfrost was massively more efficient than the standard refrigerators then available. Now, that model of Vestfrost is nowhere near as efficient as the newest Energy Star compliant refrigerators available at most appliance stores. Don't waste time or money searching for another DC refrigerator, there simply isn't any benefit. It will be cheaper to buy off the shelf and if you have to add a bit of generating capacity getting another panel on your system will be way cheaper than than it was for us back in the day...and back then it was still the better option. Tom From: Will White Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2018 3:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator Hello Off-grid Wrenches, After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our Sunfrost RF-12. We'd like to upgrade to something a little more modern that doesn't leak water all over the floor when it's humid For you off-grid installers what's your go to refrigerator recommendation? I'm going to go through the energy star website but I thought I'd consult with the experts too. I'd like to find something that has a form factor similar to the Sunfrost although I know that's going to be hard to find. Thanks, Will White -- Will White Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy. Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change. _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Ian Woofenden > Senior Editor, Home Power magazine Publishing Renewable Energy Information Since 1987 Print & Digital subscriptions: https://www.homepower.com/subscribe Download a sample issue: http://www.homepower.com/sample _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 13:33:53 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 10:33:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator In-Reply-To: <006601d4492b$20a1c100$61e54300$@solarwork.com> References: <003701d44884$2352f830$69f8e890$@solarwork.com> <22AC73FA-BC00-432A-948E-16897BD0ED73@homepower.com> <006601d4492b$20a1c100$61e54300$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Hi Dana Yes in the last year I bought a new refrigerator ( kitchen aid) And didn’t buy a LG due to really bad reviews, class action lawsuit on compressor problems etc. Too bad as there other stuff is really well made. I would only recommend a refrigerator that you can get repaired locally under warranty Jay Peltz Power. From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Sep 10 13:19:03 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 10:19:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator In-Reply-To: References: <003701d44884$2352f830$69f8e890$@solarwork.com> <22AC73FA-BC00-432A-948E-16897BD0ED73@homepower.com>, Message-ID: <2b0162ebfa4f6e43478ce3bff0f0b1c0@127.0.0.1> R600 can be harder to service NA. A client bought a Korean brand (can't remember which one) last year and it had a leak. There was not any service for them in California and they gave him his money back. On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 17:15:02 +0000, MiJo Nels wrote: (Small clarification)* R600 is actually Isobutane, and if anyone wants me to extol the virtues of these refrigerants for use in North America, don't stop me from ranting. Europe has been using these (R600-R601 and other blends) hydrocarbon based refrigerants for well over twenty years now with good success. They are more environmentally benign as well. Get Outlook for Android ------------------------- FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of Tump SENT: Monday, September 10, 2018 6:14:47 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator Blomberg appliances offer full size AC fridges using 1.2A for the smaller unit to 1.9A full size. Both have freezers. LED interior lightning and use R600 which is alcohol. My clients LOVE these units and my batteries based systems do too! https://www.blombergappliances.com/products/refrigerators.html [1] On Sep 9, 2018, at 7:24 PM, Ian Woofenden wrote: It's also worth mentioning SunDanzer; they has upright AC & DC fridges, plus chest models. David Bergeron is very responsive & helpful. While I agree w/ the advice for most people to go conventional & AC, there is still a place for Sun Frost-like products. My SF RF-12 is still running from 1984, & a SunDanzer freezer for at least 10 years now. DC can still make sense in specific applications, -) Ian On Sep 9, 2018, at 4:10 PM, Rebekah Hren wrote: I know this isn't what Will is looking for, but just in case anyone still needs a 12/24vdc model frig, I got an ARB 60 qt at the beginning of the summer, and it's been a champ. Especially for mobile applications, it doesn't need to be level. http://store.arbusa.com/Fridges-C11.aspx [4] Temp setable from zero up, I'm using it as a frig set at 33 degrees F. It's been in a hot van running all summer, using about 100 to 150 watthrs per day, less than rated, pulls about 3 amps at 12 volts. I tested out deep freeze mode and it was closer to 400 wh/day, but starting with hot water and freezing it solid. I really like the design of the ARB too. It's got good dimensions for food and beverages. 90 beers! I've got a 24v Novakool at home that's been running solid for about 15 years. But when it putters off for good I'm replacing it with an ARB... Rebekah On Sun, Sep 9, 2018, 3:29 PM Dana wrote: Our last off grid ref was an LG @ 512 KWHR/year and the latest ref is an LG /icemaker [wahoo] @ 520 KWHR/year. Freezers are: Sears chest freezer with 2" of pink board foam glued to the top "> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz [6] "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Tom at wagonmaker SENT: Saturday, September 08, 2018 11:26 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator Almost 25 years ago, when we built our off grid home, we looked at the limited options then available one of which was the Sunfrost. After looking into things like relative efficiency, initial purchase cost and system requirements, it became pretty obvious that the Sunfrost was an overpriced option that had too many problems. For half the cost we bought a Vestfrost and then simply added a bit more generating capacity to our array at far less than the difference in cost between the Vestfrost and the Sunfrost. It was the best decision on appliances we ever made. The 120 vac Vestfrost was a bit less efficient but since we were generating our own power that difference was irrelevant as the cost to provide the necessary capacity to handle the efficiency difference actually resulted in us saving money and also gaining a very reliable appliance. That was then and the Vestfrost was massively more efficient than the standard refrigerators then available. Now, that model of Vestfrost is nowhere near as efficient as the newest Energy Star compliant refrigerators available at most appliance stores. Don't waste time or money searching for another DC refrigerator, there simply isn't any benefit. It will be cheaper to buy off the shelf and if you have to add a bit of generating capacity getting another panel on your system will be way cheaper than than it was for us back in the day...and back then it was still the better option. Tom FROM: Will White SENT: Saturday, September 8, 2018 3:20 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator Hello Off-grid Wrenches, After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our Sunfrost RF-12. We'd like to upgrade to something a little more modern that doesn't leak water all over the floor when it's humid For you off-grid installers what's your go to refrigerator recommendation? I'm going to go through the energy star website but I thought I'd consult with the experts too. I'd like to find something that has a form factor similar to the Sunfrost although I know that's going to be hard to find. Thanks, Will White -- WILL WHITE Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org [9] w: www.solarenergy.org [10] p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 _FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy._ Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change [11]. ------------------------- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] List rules "> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [19] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [21] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [22] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [23] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [24] List rules "> Ian Woofenden Senior Editor, Home Power magazine Publishing Renewable Energy Information Since 1987 Print & Digital subscriptions: https://www.homepower.com/subscribe [27] Download a sample issue: http://www.homepower.com/sample [28] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [29] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [30] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> TUMP at SWNL.NET WWW.SWNL.NET Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE "> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 _ _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [31] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [32] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] https://www.blombergappliances.com/products/refrigerators.html [2] mailto:ian.woofenden at homepower.com [3] mailto:rebekah.hren at gmail.com [4] http://store.arbusa.com/Fridges-C11.aspx [5] mailto:dana at solarwork.com [6] http://www.solarwork.biz/ [7] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] mailto:will at solarenergy.org [10] http://www.solarenergy.org/ [11] http://solarenergy.org/donate [12] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [17] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [20] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [21] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [22] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [23] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [24] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [25] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [26] mailto:ian.woofenden at homepower.com [27] https://www.homepower.com/subscribe [28] http://www.homepower.com/sample [29] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [30] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [31] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [32] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 21:26:58 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 18:26:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] New house LED lighting/switches Message-ID: <08BF7067-64B8-448B-B7FB-D5419F4F0865@gmail.com> HI all I’ve got a client ( potential client) that is looking for info on “best” LED lighting for a house. Yes yes I know, be more specific. They should be dimmable color adjustable ( warm to daylight) 1. recessed ceiling lights 2. cable down/up lighting and possibly monorail lighting 3. switches: What he means is what about using wireless switches/controls. To me he means having a controller on the wall and smart phone control vs having hard wired switches. It makes some sense with the reduced wiring, and labor? 4. Brands 5. where to buy ( me) This is a very fast moving segment of the industry and its really hard to keep up, or at lease me anyway. I very much understand this is a very personal subject, and I know there will be lots of opinions out there! thanks jay peltz power From steve at mountainpowersolutions.com Tue Sep 11 15:44:14 2018 From: steve at mountainpowersolutions.com (Steve Romo) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 13:44:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OPzV Message-ID: Good afternoon everyone, What has been your experience with the Outback OPzV battery? I have a client who destroyed a set of Solar One HUP batteries (2490 A/HR) by forgetting to water them for a year. We are looking to take watering out of the equation. He does need this much storage (maybe more) My next thought was 3 strings of GS SLR 1000 batteries (cycle life is a lot better but at twice the cost) I appreciate any and all input. -- Steve Romo Mountain Power Solutions LLC NABCEP certified PV Installer #110112-124 Kohler Certified Generator Technician Generac Certified Generator Technician 970-433-6316 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Sep 11 16:28:10 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 14:28:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OPzV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80966473-d319-afdf-b78e-5e92104c2bf7@sindelarsolar.com> Steve, If it's a 48V system, you might also look at Blue Ion LiFePo batteries and eliminate the lead for good. I just installed my first set and consider it a game changer. Allan On 9/11/2018 1:44 PM, Steve Romo wrote: > Good afternoon everyone, > > What has been your experience with the Outback OPzV battery? I have a > client who destroyed a set of Solar One HUP batteries (2490 A/HR) by > forgetting to water them for a year. We are looking to take watering > out of the equation. > He does need this much storage (maybe more) My next thought was 3 > strings of GS SLR 1000  batteries (cycle life is a lot better but at > twice the cost) > I appreciate any and all input. > -- > Steve Romo > Mountain Power Solutions LLC > NABCEP certified PV Installer #110112-124 > Kohler Certified Generator Technician > Generac Certified Generator Technician > > 970-433-6316 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Sep 11 18:04:11 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 15:04:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Voc for effective string? In-Reply-To: <80966473-d319-afdf-b78e-5e92104c2bf7@sindelarsolar.com> References: <80966473-d319-afdf-b78e-5e92104c2bf7@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <7c0aa143-baf5-efbe-5325-2b567524e9ae@psln.com> I've been on hold with OB for about 40 minutes now and I need to know if 2 SW PVs with a Voc of 39.9 and a Vmpp of 31.3 will do an effective job of charging a 48 volt LA battery especially with temps of 95 degrees.  Anybody have experience with this or similar,  Appreciate the feedback.  It just seems I'm a little low in Vmpp if I want to equalize when its hot.  Will it be even more questionable in 10 years as PVs age? OB did just pickup only to tell me I need Java for the string sizing tool and he can't help me with this configuration. Bill On 9/11/2018 1:28 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > If it's a 48V system, you might also look at Blue Ion LiFePo batteries > and eliminate the lead for good. I just installed my first set and > consider it a game changer. > > Allan > > On 9/11/2018 1:44 PM, Steve Romo wrote: >> Good afternoon everyone, >> >> What has been your experience with the Outback OPzV battery? I have a >> client who destroyed a set of Solar One HUP batteries (2490 A/HR) by >> forgetting to water them for a year. We are looking to take watering >> out of the equation. >> He does need this much storage (maybe more) My next thought was 3 >> strings of GS SLR 1000  batteries (cycle life is a lot better but at >> twice the cost) >> I appreciate any and all input. >> -- >> Steve Romo >> Mountain Power Solutions LLC >> NABCEP certified PV Installer #110112-124 >> Kohler Certified Generator Technician >> Generac Certified Generator Technician >> >> 970-433-6316 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 16:45:48 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 13:45:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OPzV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Steve, I’d look at the Rolls Gel S2-2160. 2437 ah at C/20 3700 cycles to 50% I don’t know what the cost comparison is between the OB, Rolls and GS SLR batteries, jay peltz power > On Sep 11, 2018, at 12:44 PM, Steve Romo wrote: > > Good afternoon everyone, > > What has been your experience with the Outback OPzV battery? I have a client who destroyed a set of Solar One HUP batteries (2490 A/HR) by forgetting to water them for a year. We are looking to take watering out of the equation. > He does need this much storage (maybe more) My next thought was 3 strings of GS SLR 1000 batteries (cycle life is a lot better but at twice the cost) > I appreciate any and all input. > > -- > Steve Romo > Mountain Power Solutions LLC > NABCEP certified PV Installer #110112-124 > Kohler Certified Generator Technician > Generac Certified Generator Technician > > 970-433-6316 > ___: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Sep 11 18:24:02 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 16:24:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Voc for effective string? In-Reply-To: <7c0aa143-baf5-efbe-5325-2b567524e9ae@psln.com> References: <80966473-d319-afdf-b78e-5e92104c2bf7@sindelarsolar.com> <7c0aa143-baf5-efbe-5325-2b567524e9ae@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill, I wouldn't, especially with FLAs. I have seen this situation here, where the summer highs are similar, with a few homeowner/hack installations and no, 60-cell modules will not finish the charge in hot weather. Strings of three work just about perfect with modern charge controllers, especially in winter, as they range high enough but well below 150VDC limits. Allan On 9/11/2018 4:04 PM, Bill Battagin wrote: > > I've been on hold with OB for about 40 minutes now and I need to know > if 2 SW PVs with a Voc of 39.9 and a Vmpp of 31.3 will do an effective > job of charging a 48 volt LA battery especially with temps of 95 > degrees.  Anybody have experience with this or similar,  Appreciate > the feedback.  It just seems I'm a little low in Vmpp if I want to > equalize when its hot.  Will it be even more questionable in 10 years > as PVs age? > > OB did just pickup only to tell me I need Java for the string sizing > tool and he can't help me with this configuration. > > Bill > > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Sep 11 18:56:02 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 18:56:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator In-Reply-To: References: <10793554-dc2a-5ab9-09ef-f808bfbe10f9@solarray.com> Message-ID: We recently installed a Frigidaire refrigerator in our off gird house, and it uses about 1 KWh/ Day. It is nothing very special, but works fine. At 09:20 PM 9/8/2018, you wrote: >Hello Off-grid Wrenches, > >After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our >Sunfrost RF-12. We'd like to upgrade to >something a little more modern that doesn't leak >water all over the floor when it's humid > >For you off-grid installers what's your go to >refrigerator recommendation? I'm going to go >through the energy star website but I thought >I'd consult with the experts too. I'd like to >find something that has a form factor similar to >the Sunfrost although I know that's going to be hard to find. > >Thanks, >Will White > > > >-- >Will White >Curriculum Developer > >[] > >e: will at solarenergy.org >w: www.solarenergy.org >p: 802-272-3092 > >PV Installation Professional ># 093006-34 > >FACT:  If we covered 0.33% of the earth with >solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy. > >Do you envision a world powered by renewable >energy? Be the change. >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 20:44:05 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 18:44:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points Message-ID: Hello wrenches, I inspected a system that another company had installed. It had single string of 12 x Trojan L16RE-2V batteries about 2 years old. They had experienced a battery melt-down. It looks as though the meltdown had occurred internally, not from a bad connection. The system was dual stack Outback VFXR-3524A inverters (to be precise one was a sealed unit). The set-points were as follows: Absorb Voltage was 29.8V Absorb Time was 6.0 hours Float Voltage was 27.0V Rebulk Voltage was 27.0V End Amps was 0A These settings extended similarly to 2 x FM80 charge controllers. I was able to jumper the melted battery and get her power in 15 minutes. Her installer had left her without power for 2 weeks. My clients will kill me if that happened! Anyway, I believe these set-points are way out of whack and too aggressive. The voltage is OK (Trojan recommends ~29.6V for this) but the Absorb time seems way too long, Rebulk is too high and end amps isn't helping. However, Im not finding a definitive article from Trojan that describes typical Absorb times or even how to adjust towards a good Absorb Time, based on specific gravity measurements or amperage absorption. My diagnosis is that these batteries have been cooked over the past 2 years. In the electrolyte, there is noticeable "floaties". The client said that the original installer had accused her of not using distilled water, but I don't believe that would cause her symptoms. I believe the floaties are plate material. I'd be interested in wrenches opinions familiar with these batteries if these are appropriate settings for a low energy user. I will attempt to get through to Trojan as well. Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 20:56:55 2018 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 20:56:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac, >From your description, I'd say your analysis is very plausible, although I rarely deal with Trojan - I have an attitude about them. It also sounds like it is unlikely to be covered under warranty, unless someone at Trojan is feeling generous when you get through to them. The absorb time is way too long, and the rebulk at 27.0 is also way high. The absorb voltage seems fine, especially for a light user, but the proof is in the SG readings. The last I checked, Trojan was looking for about 1.27, but that was a long time ago, and I don't know if they treat the 2 volt L16s any differently. Howie On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 8:44 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello wrenches, > > I inspected a system that another company had installed. It had single > string of 12 x Trojan L16RE-2V batteries about 2 years old. They had > experienced a battery melt-down. It looks as though the meltdown had > occurred internally, not from a bad connection. > > The system was dual stack Outback VFXR-3524A inverters (to be precise one > was a sealed unit). The set-points were as follows: > Absorb Voltage was 29.8V > Absorb Time was 6.0 hours > Float Voltage was 27.0V > Rebulk Voltage was 27.0V > End Amps was 0A > > These settings extended similarly to 2 x FM80 charge controllers. > > I was able to jumper the melted battery and get her power in 15 minutes. > Her installer had left her without power for 2 weeks. My clients will kill > me if that happened! > > Anyway, I believe these set-points are way out of whack and too > aggressive. The voltage is OK (Trojan recommends ~29.6V for this) but the > Absorb time seems way too long, Rebulk is too high and end amps isn't > helping. However, Im not finding a definitive article from Trojan that > describes typical Absorb times or even how to adjust towards a good Absorb > Time, based on specific gravity measurements or amperage absorption. > > My diagnosis is that these batteries have been cooked over the past 2 > years. In the electrolyte, there is noticeable "floaties". The client > said that the original installer had accused her of not using distilled > water, but I don't believe that would cause her symptoms. I believe the > floaties are plate material. > > I'd be interested in wrenches opinions familiar with these batteries if > these are appropriate settings for a low energy user. I will attempt to > get through to Trojan as well. > > Thanks in advance > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 21:18:17 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 18:18:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A8EB4A5-1E78-4340-86C8-DFF28EDDD113@gmail.com> Hi Mac Here is the Trojan info you need https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TrojanBattery_UsersGuide.pdf Looks like 4 hrs max absorb and 29.4v and that could be a bit long depending on how much solar, size of the generator and how they use the batteries Usually the set points are at factory default! Jay Peltz power. > On Sep 11, 2018, at 5:44 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello wrenches, > > I inspected a system that another company had installed. It had single string of 12 x Trojan L16RE-2V batteries about 2 years old. They had experienced a battery melt-down. It looks as though the meltdown had occurred internally, not from a bad connection. > > The system was dual stack Outback VFXR-3524A inverters (to be precise one was a sealed unit). The set-points were as follows: > Absorb Voltage was 29.8V > Absorb Time was 6.0 hours > Float Voltage was 27.0V > Rebulk Voltage was 27.0V > End Amps was 0A > > These settings extended similarly to 2 x FM80 charge controllers. > > I was able to jumper the melted battery and get her power in 15 minutes. Her installer had left her without power for 2 weeks. My clients will kill me if that happened! > > Anyway, I believe these set-points are way out of whack and too aggressive. The voltage is OK (Trojan recommends ~29.6V for this) but the Absorb time seems way too long, Rebulk is too high and end amps isn't helping. However, Im not finding a definitive article from Trojan that describes typical Absorb times or even how to adjust towards a good Absorb Time, based on specific gravity measurements or amperage absorption. > > My diagnosis is that these batteries have been cooked over the past 2 years. In the electrolyte, there is noticeable "floaties". The client said that the original installer had accused her of not using distilled water, but I don't believe that would cause her symptoms. I believe the floaties are plate material. > > I'd be interested in wrenches opinions familiar with these batteries if these are appropriate settings for a low energy user. I will attempt to get through to Trojan as well. > > Thanks in advance > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Sep 11 22:07:49 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 20:07:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004801d44a3d$689e43d0$39dacb70$@solarwork.com> Return amps at 0 is physically impossible I think. The lowest Return amps I have ever seen acknowledged by a charge controller on a 24-volt set was 3-4 amps on a new set of batteries. Older sets 6-8 amps. I was trying to see how low you could go before it would stop Bulk. 29.8 for 6 hours? was cooking them plates& boiling off electrolyte. These batteries must have been so hot. To Float my 48-volt HUP set takes about 250-300 watts with no load. 5.21-6.25 amps. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 6:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points Hello wrenches, I inspected a system that another company had installed. It had single string of 12 x Trojan L16RE-2V batteries about 2 years old. They had experienced a battery melt-down. It looks as though the meltdown had occurred internally, not from a bad connection. The system was dual stack Outback VFXR-3524A inverters (to be precise one was a sealed unit). The set-points were as follows: Absorb Voltage was 29.8V Absorb Time was 6.0 hours Float Voltage was 27.0V Rebulk Voltage was 27.0V End Amps was 0A These settings extended similarly to 2 x FM80 charge controllers. I was able to jumper the melted battery and get her power in 15 minutes. Her installer had left her without power for 2 weeks. My clients will kill me if that happened! Anyway, I believe these set-points are way out of whack and too aggressive. The voltage is OK (Trojan recommends ~29.6V for this) but the Absorb time seems way too long, Rebulk is too high and end amps isn't helping. However, Im not finding a definitive article from Trojan that describes typical Absorb times or even how to adjust towards a good Absorb Time, based on specific gravity measurements or amperage absorption. My diagnosis is that these batteries have been cooked over the past 2 years. In the electrolyte, there is noticeable "floaties". The client said that the original installer had accused her of not using distilled water, but I don't believe that would cause her symptoms. I believe the floaties are plate material. I'd be interested in wrenches opinions familiar with these batteries if these are appropriate settings for a low energy user. I will attempt to get through to Trojan as well. Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Sep 11 22:09:29 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 20:09:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points In-Reply-To: <004801d44a3d$689e43d0$39dacb70$@solarwork.com> References: <004801d44a3d$689e43d0$39dacb70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <005201d44a3d$a4a193a0$ede4bae0$@solarwork.com> Return amps = End amps sorry. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 8:08 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points Return amps at 0 is physically impossible I think. The lowest Return amps I have ever seen acknowledged by a charge controller on a 24-volt set was 3-4 amps on a new set of batteries. Older sets 6-8 amps. I was trying to see how low you could go before it would stop Bulk. 29.8 for 6 hours? was cooking them plates& boiling off electrolyte. These batteries must have been so hot. To Float my 48-volt HUP set takes about 250-300 watts with no load. 5.21-6.25 amps. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 6:44 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points Hello wrenches, I inspected a system that another company had installed. It had single string of 12 x Trojan L16RE-2V batteries about 2 years old. They had experienced a battery melt-down. It looks as though the meltdown had occurred internally, not from a bad connection. The system was dual stack Outback VFXR-3524A inverters (to be precise one was a sealed unit). The set-points were as follows: Absorb Voltage was 29.8V Absorb Time was 6.0 hours Float Voltage was 27.0V Rebulk Voltage was 27.0V End Amps was 0A These settings extended similarly to 2 x FM80 charge controllers. I was able to jumper the melted battery and get her power in 15 minutes. Her installer had left her without power for 2 weeks. My clients will kill me if that happened! Anyway, I believe these set-points are way out of whack and too aggressive. The voltage is OK (Trojan recommends ~29.6V for this) but the Absorb time seems way too long, Rebulk is too high and end amps isn't helping. However, Im not finding a definitive article from Trojan that describes typical Absorb times or even how to adjust towards a good Absorb Time, based on specific gravity measurements or amperage absorption. My diagnosis is that these batteries have been cooked over the past 2 years. In the electrolyte, there is noticeable "floaties". The client said that the original installer had accused her of not using distilled water, but I don't believe that would cause her symptoms. I believe the floaties are plate material. I'd be interested in wrenches opinions familiar with these batteries if these are appropriate settings for a low energy user. I will attempt to get through to Trojan as well. Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 22:28:08 2018 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 22:28:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points In-Reply-To: <004801d44a3d$689e43d0$39dacb70$@solarwork.com> References: <004801d44a3d$689e43d0$39dacb70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: When the return amps are set to 0, that typically defeats that function. Howie On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 10:07 PM Dana wrote: > Return amps at 0 is physically impossible I think. The lowest Return amps > I have ever seen acknowledged by a charge controller on a 24-volt set was > 3-4 amps on a new set of batteries. Older sets 6-8 amps. > > I was trying to see how low you could go before it would stop Bulk. > > 29.8 for 6 hours? was cooking them plates& boiling off electrolyte. These > batteries must have been so hot. > > To Float my 48-volt HUP set takes about 250-300 watts with no load. > 5.21-6.25 amps. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Mac Lewis > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 11, 2018 6:44 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points > > > > Hello wrenches, > > > > I inspected a system that another company had installed. It had single > string of 12 x Trojan L16RE-2V batteries about 2 years old. They had > experienced a battery melt-down. It looks as though the meltdown had > occurred internally, not from a bad connection. > > > > The system was dual stack Outback VFXR-3524A inverters (to be precise one > was a sealed unit). The set-points were as follows: > > Absorb Voltage was 29.8V > > Absorb Time was 6.0 hours > > Float Voltage was 27.0V > > Rebulk Voltage was 27.0V > > End Amps was 0A > > > > These settings extended similarly to 2 x FM80 charge controllers. > > > > I was able to jumper the melted battery and get her power in 15 minutes. > Her installer had left her without power for 2 weeks. My clients will kill > me if that happened! > > > > Anyway, I believe these set-points are way out of whack and too > aggressive. The voltage is OK (Trojan recommends ~29.6V for this) but the > Absorb time seems way too long, Rebulk is too high and end amps isn't > helping. However, Im not finding a definitive article from Trojan that > describes typical Absorb times or even how to adjust towards a good Absorb > Time, based on specific gravity measurements or amperage absorption. > > > > My diagnosis is that these batteries have been cooked over the past 2 > years. In the electrolyte, there is noticeable "floaties". The client > said that the original installer had accused her of not using distilled > water, but I don't believe that would cause her symptoms. I believe the > floaties are plate material. > > > > I'd be interested in wrenches opinions familiar with these batteries if > these are appropriate settings for a low energy user. I will attempt to > get through to Trojan as well. > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Sep 11 23:51:04 2018 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 03:51:04 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2746aa8f146643ff80dd248c1d7f926d@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hi Mac, So essentially this unfortunate battery bank was being close to Equalize charged daily for a couple years? Must have gone through a lot of water. I agree with your diagnosis they just cooked them, plates are dissolving = a seriously over-charged and ruined battery bank. Hopefully she doesn't shoot the messenger when you sell a new bank. Only times I would use settings like that is if using PV to recondition some batteries that suffered an opposite fate to this situation of chronic discharge. Even then would only be a couple weeks. I like the saying ' batteries don't die, they are murdered ' . Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: September-11-18 5:44 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points Hello wrenches, I inspected a system that another company had installed. It had single string of 12 x Trojan L16RE-2V batteries about 2 years old. They had experienced a battery melt-down. It looks as though the meltdown had occurred internally, not from a bad connection. The system was dual stack Outback VFXR-3524A inverters (to be precise one was a sealed unit). The set-points were as follows: Absorb Voltage was 29.8V Absorb Time was 6.0 hours Float Voltage was 27.0V Rebulk Voltage was 27.0V End Amps was 0A These settings extended similarly to 2 x FM80 charge controllers. I was able to jumper the melted battery and get her power in 15 minutes. Her installer had left her without power for 2 weeks. My clients will kill me if that happened! Anyway, I believe these set-points are way out of whack and too aggressive. The voltage is OK (Trojan recommends ~29.6V for this) but the Absorb time seems way too long, Rebulk is too high and end amps isn't helping. However, Im not finding a definitive article from Trojan that describes typical Absorb times or even how to adjust towards a good Absorb Time, based on specific gravity measurements or amperage absorption. My diagnosis is that these batteries have been cooked over the past 2 years. In the electrolyte, there is noticeable "floaties". The client said that the original installer had accused her of not using distilled water, but I don't believe that would cause her symptoms. I believe the floaties are plate material. I'd be interested in wrenches opinions familiar with these batteries if these are appropriate settings for a low energy user. I will attempt to get through to Trojan as well. Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Sep 12 02:14:14 2018 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 08:14:14 +0200 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have to agree that the voltage is pretty aggressive for that system. With, absob timers they are typically based on how much current is going into the battery bank when in Bulk. The inverter current realistically would be around 130 to 140 amps... at that rate 3.5 to 5 hours at the most... Generally I would have started around 4 hours and if the SGs sagged I would have added time, reduced time if the SGs rose above 1.275.... With the array, assuming they have around 6 kw of PV... that'll be around 100 to 120 amps of real current at peak, and to maximize pv production I may have set this to 4 to 6 hours. I still like to set the inverter charger .2 to .4 less in voltage than the solar charge controller. I have found, Even today most of the inverters and charge controller dont share true charging info. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 2:44 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello wrenches, > > I inspected a system that another company had installed. It had single > string of 12 x Trojan L16RE-2V batteries about 2 years old. They had > experienced a battery melt-down. It looks as though the meltdown had > occurred internally, not from a bad connection. > > The system was dual stack Outback VFXR-3524A inverters (to be precise one > was a sealed unit). The set-points were as follows: > Absorb Voltage was 29.8V > Absorb Time was 6.0 hours > Float Voltage was 27.0V > Rebulk Voltage was 27.0V > End Amps was 0A > > These settings extended similarly to 2 x FM80 charge controllers. > > I was able to jumper the melted battery and get her power in 15 minutes. > Her installer had left her without power for 2 weeks. My clients will kill > me if that happened! > > Anyway, I believe these set-points are way out of whack and too > aggressive. The voltage is OK (Trojan recommends ~29.6V for this) but the > Absorb time seems way too long, Rebulk is too high and end amps isn't > helping. However, Im not finding a definitive article from Trojan that > describes typical Absorb times or even how to adjust towards a good Absorb > Time, based on specific gravity measurements or amperage absorption. > > My diagnosis is that these batteries have been cooked over the past 2 > years. In the electrolyte, there is noticeable "floaties". The client > said that the original installer had accused her of not using distilled > water, but I don't believe that would cause her symptoms. I believe the > floaties are plate material. > > I'd be interested in wrenches opinions familiar with these batteries if > these are appropriate settings for a low energy user. I will attempt to > get through to Trojan as well. > > Thanks in advance > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > , -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 11:21:39 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 09:21:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Voc for effective string? In-Reply-To: References: <80966473-d319-afdf-b78e-5e92104c2bf7@sindelarsolar.com> <7c0aa143-baf5-efbe-5325-2b567524e9ae@psln.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill, I agree with Allen. We get similar peak temps here and two 60 cell modules doesn't charge a 48V battery bank adequately. This effect would become worse over time with voltage degradation. I try to be at least 15% above highest expected battery voltage with Vmp of the strings. With 150V input limit on the Outback controllers, that leaves you with only one option, strings of 3, with our low temps. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 4:24 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Bill, I wouldn't, especially with FLAs. I have seen this situation here, > where the summer highs are similar, with a few homeowner/hack installations > and no, 60-cell modules will not finish the charge in hot weather. Strings > of three work just about perfect with modern charge controllers, especially > in winter, as they range high enough but well below 150VDC limits. > > Allan > On 9/11/2018 4:04 PM, Bill Battagin wrote: > > I've been on hold with OB for about 40 minutes now and I need to know if 2 > SW PVs with a Voc of 39.9 and a Vmpp of 31.3 will do an effective job of > charging a 48 volt LA battery especially with temps of 95 degrees. Anybody > have experience with this or similar, Appreciate the feedback. It just > seems I'm a little low in Vmpp if I want to equalize when its hot. Will it > be even more questionable in 10 years as PVs age? > > OB did just pickup only to tell me I need Java for the string sizing tool > and he can't help me with this configuration. > > Bill > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Sep 12 11:53:16 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 11:53:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree with the comments that followed on this thread, and would also like to add that Trojan L-16 batteries have a high rate of premature failure. Possibly the 2 V cells are better, but the 6 V cells seem very prone to dying early. Trojan batteries were robust in past decades, but seem exceedingly fragile now. At 08:44 PM 9/11/2018, you wrote: >Hello wrenches, > >I inspected a system that another company had >installed. It had single string of 12 x Trojan >L16RE-2V batteries about 2 years old. They had >experienced a battery melt-down. It looks as >though the meltdown had occurred internally, not from a bad connection. > >The system was dual stack Outback VFXR-3524A >inverters (to be precise one was a sealed >unit). The set-points were as follows: >Absorb Voltage was 29.8V >Absorb Time was 6.0 hours >Float Voltage was 27.0V >Rebulk Voltage was 27.0V >End Amps was 0A > >These settings extended similarly to 2 x FM80 charge controllers. > >I was able to jumper the melted battery and get >her power in 15 minutes. Her installer had >left her without power for 2 weeks. My clients will kill me if that happened! > >Anyway, I believe these set-points are way out >of whack and too aggressive. The voltage is OK >(Trojan recommends ~29.6V for this) but the >Absorb time seems way too long, Rebulk is too >high and end amps isn't helping. However, Im >not finding a definitive article from Trojan >that describes typical Absorb times or even how >to adjust towards a good Absorb Time, based on >specific gravity measurements or amperage absorption.  > >My diagnosis is that these batteries have been >cooked over the past 2 years. In the >electrolyte, there is noticeable >"floaties". The client said that the original >installer had accused her of not using distilled >water, but I don't believe that would cause her >symptoms. I believe the floaties are plate material. > >I'd be interested in wrenches opinions familiar >with these batteries if these are appropriate >settings for a low energy user. I will attempt >to get through to Trojan as well. > >Thanks in advance > > > >-- > > > >Mac Lewis > >"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Wed Sep 12 11:56:03 2018 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 08:56:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Voc for effective string? In-Reply-To: <7c0aa143-baf5-efbe-5325-2b567524e9ae@psln.com> References: <80966473-d319-afdf-b78e-5e92104c2bf7@sindelarsolar.com> <7c0aa143-baf5-efbe-5325-2b567524e9ae@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill, What is the full charge voltage of your L-ion pack. The one I am using need 56 VDC. Next look at the module data sheet and see % or actual drop in peak power voltage per degree C. The modules will be about 60 degrees C which is 40 degrees higher that where they are rated. My guess is that if you need 56 volts from two 60 cell modules it will be a much lower current than peak current. The modules will be running closer to open circuit voltage. If you battery reaches full charge at 48 volts, it should charge fine, but you will have other bigger problems. David Katz On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 3:04 PM Bill Battagin wrote: > I've been on hold with OB for about 40 minutes now and I need to know if 2 > SW PVs with a Voc of 39.9 and a Vmpp of 31.3 will do an effective job of > charging a 48 volt LA battery especially with temps of 95 degrees. Anybody > have experience with this or similar, Appreciate the feedback. It just > seems I'm a little low in Vmpp if I want to equalize when its hot. Will it > be even more questionable in 10 years as PVs age? > > OB did just pickup only to tell me I need Java for the string sizing tool > and he can't help me with this configuration. > > Bill > > On 9/11/2018 1:28 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > If it's a 48V system, you might also look at Blue Ion LiFePo batteries and > eliminate the lead for good. I just installed my first set and consider it > a game changer. > > Allan > On 9/11/2018 1:44 PM, Steve Romo wrote: > > Good afternoon everyone, > > What has been your experience with the Outback OPzV battery? I have a > client who destroyed a set of Solar One HUP batteries (2490 A/HR) by > forgetting to water them for a year. We are looking to take watering out of > the equation. > He does need this much storage (maybe more) My next thought was 3 strings > of GS SLR 1000 batteries (cycle life is a lot better but at twice the > cost) > I appreciate any and all input. > -- > Steve Romo > Mountain Power Solutions LLC > NABCEP certified PV Installer #110112-124 > Kohler Certified Generator Technician > Generac Certified Generator Technician > > 970-433-6316 > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_6879435072246311821_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Sep 12 12:30:47 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 10:30:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Voc for effective string? In-Reply-To: References: <80966473-d319-afdf-b78e-5e92104c2bf7@sindelarsolar.com> <7c0aa143-baf5-efbe-5325-2b567524e9ae@psln.com> Message-ID: A 2nd option: A pair of 72 cell modules should be enough. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/12/18 9:21 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Bill, > > I agree with Allen. We get similar peak temps here and two 60 cell > modules doesn't charge a 48V battery bank adequately. This effect > would become worse over time with voltage degradation. I try to be at > least 15% above highest expected battery voltage with Vmp of the > strings. With 150V input limit on the Outback controllers, that leaves > you with only one option, strings of 3, with our low temps. > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 4:24 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote: > > Bill, I wouldn't, especially with FLAs. I have seen this situation > here, where the summer highs are similar, with a few > homeowner/hack installations and no, 60-cell modules will not > finish the charge in hot weather. Strings of three work just about > perfect with modern charge controllers, especially in winter, as > they range high enough but well below 150VDC limits. > > Allan > > On 9/11/2018 4:04 PM, Bill Battagin wrote: >> >> I've been on hold with OB for about 40 minutes now and I need to >> know if 2 SW PVs with a Voc of 39.9 and a Vmpp of 31.3 will do an >> effective job of charging a 48 volt LA battery especially with >> temps of 95 degrees.  Anybody have experience with this or >> similar,  Appreciate the feedback.  It just seems I'm a little >> low in Vmpp if I want to equalize when its hot.  Will it be even >> more questionable in 10 years as PVs age? >> >> OB did just pickup only to tell me I need Java for the string >> sizing tool and he can't help me with this configuration. >> >> Bill >> >> -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Sep 12 12:33:10 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 10:33:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points In-Reply-To: <20180912155326.870EA105C7A@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180912155326.870EA105C7A@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately I'm seeing premature failures of the 2 v models even more.  You have paralleled cells in each battery, and it can be difficult to even identify the failures.  I found the infared camera to be invaluable, as you can see the shorted cell clearly in a thermal image. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/12/18 9:53 AM, Drake wrote: > I agree with the comments that followed on this thread, and would also > like to add that Trojan L-16 batteries have a high rate of premature > failure. Possibly the 2 V cells are better, but the 6 V cells seem > very prone to dying early. Trojan batteries were robust in past > decades, but seem exceedingly fragile now. > > At 08:44 PM 9/11/2018, you wrote: >> Hello wrenches, >> >> I inspected a system that another company had installed.  It had >> single string of 12 x Trojan L16RE-2V batteries about 2 years old. >> They had experienced a battery melt-down.  It looks as though the >> meltdown had occurred internally, not from a bad connection. >> >> The system was dual stack Outback VFXR-3524A inverters (to be precise >> one was a sealed unit).  The set-points were as follows: >> Absorb Voltage was 29.8V >> Absorb Time was 6.0 hours >> Float Voltage was 27.0V >> Rebulk Voltage was 27.0V >> End Amps was 0A >> >> These settings extended similarly to 2 x FM80 charge controllers. >> >> I was able to jumper the melted battery and get her power in 15 >> minutes.  Her installer had left her without power for 2 weeks.  My >> clients will kill me if that happened! >> >> Anyway, I believe these set-points are way out of whack and too >> aggressive.  The voltage is OK (Trojan recommends ~29.6V for this) >> but the Absorb time seems way too long, Rebulk is too high and end >> amps isn't helping.  However, Im not finding a definitive article >> from Trojan that describes typical Absorb times or even how to adjust >> towards a good Absorb Time, based on specific gravity measurements or >> amperage absorption.  >> >> My diagnosis is that these batteries have been cooked over the past 2 >> years.  In the electrolyte, there is noticeable "floaties".  The >> client said that the original installer had accused her of not using >> distilled water, but I don't believe that would cause her symptoms.  >> I believe the floaties are plate material. >> >> I'd be interested in wrenches opinions familiar with these batteries >> if these are appropriate settings for a low energy user.  I will >> attempt to get through to Trojan as well. >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> *_______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Sep 12 14:31:01 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 13:31:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points In-Reply-To: References: <20180912155326.870EA105C7A@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <48A1A2FF-D342-43FC-A7FD-BA13C33926F7@millersolar.com> Friends: I used to buy Trojans. My vendor told me about 3 years ago that Trojan had been acquired and the chemistry in the plates had changed. Later they denied making that statement. I had a set of L16s vastly underperform. Trojan suggest a bulk/absorption voltage higher than any other manufacturer, a value hard to achieve and maintain in a small off grid system. I replaced them with US Battery and system performance improved. Due to the decline in quality I stopped using Trojan. Due to the varying stories, I stopped using Battery Systems. We prefer the MK/Deka brand. William > On Sep 12, 2018, at 11:33 AM, Ray wrote: > > Unfortunately I'm seeing premature failures of the 2 v models even more. You have paralleled cells in each battery, and it can be difficult to even identify the failures. I found the infared camera to be invaluable, as you can see the shorted cell clearly in a thermal image. > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 >> On 9/12/18 9:53 AM, Drake wrote: >> I agree with the comments that followed on this thread, and would also like to add that Trojan L-16 batteries have a high rate of premature failure. Possibly the 2 V cells are better, but the 6 V cells seem very prone to dying early. Trojan batteries were robust in past decades, but seem exceedingly fragile now. >> >> At 08:44 PM 9/11/2018, you wrote: >>> Hello wrenches, >>> >>> I inspected a system that another company had installed. It had single string of 12 x Trojan L16RE-2V batteries about 2 years old. They had experienced a battery melt-down. It looks as though the meltdown had occurred internally, not from a bad connection. >>> >>> The system was dual stack Outback VFXR-3524A inverters (to be precise one was a sealed unit). The set-points were as follows: >>> Absorb Voltage was 29.8V >>> Absorb Time was 6.0 hours >>> Float Voltage was 27.0V >>> Rebulk Voltage was 27.0V >>> End Amps was 0A >>> >>> These settings extended similarly to 2 x FM80 charge controllers. >>> >>> I was able to jumper the melted battery and get her power in 15 minutes. Her installer had left her without power for 2 weeks. My clients will kill me if that happened! >>> >>> Anyway, I believe these set-points are way out of whack and too aggressive. The voltage is OK (Trojan recommends ~29.6V for this) but the Absorb time seems way too long, Rebulk is too high and end amps isn't helping. However, Im not finding a definitive article from Trojan that describes typical Absorb times or even how to adjust towards a good Absorb Time, based on specific gravity measurements or amperage absorption.  >>> >>> My diagnosis is that these batteries have been cooked over the past 2 years. In the electrolyte, there is noticeable "floaties". The client said that the original installer had accused her of not using distilled water, but I don't believe that would cause her symptoms. I believe the floaties are plate material. >>> >>> I'd be interested in wrenches opinions familiar with these batteries if these are appropriate settings for a low energy user. I will attempt to get through to Trojan as well. >>> >>> Thanks in advance >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed Sep 12 17:18:24 2018 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 16:18:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 volt charge controller Message-ID: Hi all, I am servicing a system that has a 72 volt charge controller circuit board made by solar converters in Canada. I believe they are no longer in the business. The float and bulk settings are messed up and they are set with two variable resistor pots. Can anyone tell me how I can set these??? Thanks, Kris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Sep 12 17:28:16 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 15:28:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 72 volt charge controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9f2108ec-fb40-9584-638d-cfef3d166930@solarray.com> I'm not sure on that particular device, but SCI equipment usually have test points, that you measure with a volt meter: positive to test point, negative to the negative battery input.  The readings reflect cell voltage, so you need to figure the voltage set points you want, and divide by 36 (in your case) to determine the proper set points. Turn the little pot, and watch the values change by the thousandth. Just to make things interesting, those set points can drift.  Overall, SCI made great gear, I have a bunch of it still in service. They kind of got run out by Chinese copies of their circuits that sold for significantly less.  Another option is Midnite Classics can be set to 72 v mode (I believe). Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/12/18 3:18 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > Hi all, > > I am servicing a system that has a 72 volt charge controller circuit > board made by solar converters in Canada.  I believe they are no > longer in the business.  The float and bulk settings are messed up and > they are set with two variable resistor pots.  Can anyone tell me how > I can set these??? > > Thanks, > Kris > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ken at commonwealthsolar.com Wed Sep 12 20:11:12 2018 From: Ken at commonwealthsolar.com (Ken Schaal) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 20:11:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. Message-ID: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Sep 12 20:38:54 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 18:38:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <205ea5c3-03f1-1505-5843-8e2cbd9b2996@solarray.com> I didn't watch the whole thing, but it looked like a standard AC couple set up with an Outback Radian.  My understanding is that Outback no longer supports AC Coupling, BTW.  I would never use that for an off grid system or  for longer outages.  In a very brief explanation,  it essentially bypasses any charge controlling to the batteries, and puts full Array power into the batteries until a relay (or phase shifting) disconnects the array.  No three stage charging, no taper charging, no float, no temp compensation.  Its like trying to fill a 5 gal bucket with a fire house, or drive a car with a throttle that's either off or at full throttle, no in between.  The other issue is that if the batteries get low and the inverter shuts off, the system will not recharge, and after a couple of weeks the batteries will be sulfated beyond recovery. My guess is that manus that advocated this approach got into trouble from end users that fried expensive battery banks during longer outages.  I would consider it the equivalent of cheap backup generators: a great backup system for folks that don't need it.   There are probably thousands of those out there with happy customers and installers, because its never actually been used for more than a few hours, and the batteries are properly charged from the grid 99.8% of the time. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/12/18 6:11 PM, Ken Schaal wrote: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Wed Sep 12 21:03:07 2018 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 21:03:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. References: Message-ID: <94D84B24855B430ABF367135DA9F8326@PeterPC> Ken We have had terrific success with AC Coupling. Yes there are some differences from Dc Coupled systems but if built properly, customer is willing to learn how to use it and maintain it and you put the correct relays in to shut off the string inverters if battery voltage gets to high, great. If you have a customer that refuses to exercise the system, not check the batteries if they are fla's and overloads it when the power goes down then not so cool. We have customers that power shave with it, have had backup power for days until the power came back on as they monitored the loads and were judicious about use. Ray is right in the sense the customer needs to learn how to use the system or they can royally screw it up ( yes we have had two do this, one learned the other not ). The Radians have been great work horses for this application, sadly as Ray mentioned Outback has moved away from it as a primary solution. peter giroux ASAE Atlanta ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Schaal To: RE-wrenches ; Ken Schaal Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Sep 12 21:26:53 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 15:26:53 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC In-Reply-To: <94D84B24855B430ABF367135DA9F8326@PeterPC> References: <94D84B24855B430ABF367135DA9F8326@PeterPC> Message-ID: <010501d44b00$dc4cc950$94e65bf0$@com> Aloha all, At the risk of whacking at a hornet’s nest…lower voltage DC is soooo 80s and 90s especially when it comes to grid-tie applications with battery storage. The time of OutBack and Schneider and all the others doing 48VDC is drawing to close. Enough already. Thank you for your service. The sooner the industry fully migrates to higher voltage DC (Tesla, LG Chem, BYD and others), the better. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Giroux Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 3:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. Ken We have had terrific success with AC Coupling. Yes there are some differences from Dc Coupled systems but if built properly, customer is willing to learn how to use it and maintain it and you put the correct relays in to shut off the string inverters if battery voltage gets to high, great. If you have a customer that refuses to exercise the system, not check the batteries if they are fla's and overloads it when the power goes down then not so cool. We have customers that power shave with it, have had backup power for days until the power came back on as they monitored the loads and were judicious about use. Ray is right in the sense the customer needs to learn how to use the system or they can royally screw it up ( yes we have had two do this, one learned the other not ). The Radians have been great work horses for this application, sadly as Ray mentioned Outback has moved away from it as a primary solution. peter giroux ASAE Atlanta ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Schaal To: RE-wrenches ; Ken Schaal Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q _____ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Wed Sep 12 21:31:21 2018 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 01:31:21 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks like standard AC coupling. We typically just redo the whole system rather than retro fit. Depending on the system size, it's usually not that much more work (racking is already up) and the end result is always a regulated charge to the batteries. It would be great if someone would come up with a regulated AC coupled charge versus an all or nothing approach via phase shifting or relay controlled. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com http://PureEnergySolar.com http://SolarChargingStation.net 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ken Schaal Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM To: RE-wrenches; Ken Schaal Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 21:36:17 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 19:36:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Diversion load controller and diversion loads will work every time, no matter what the equipment. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP PV Associate 970.672.4342 On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 7:31 PM Wayne Irwin wrote: > Looks like standard AC coupling. > > We typically just redo the whole system rather than retro fit. Depending > on the system size, it's usually not that much more work (racking is > already up) and the end result is always a regulated charge to the > batteries. > > > It would be great if someone would come up with a regulated AC coupled > charge versus an all or nothing approach via phase shifting or relay > controlled. > > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > http://PureEnergySolar.com > http://SolarChargingStation.net > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Ken Schaal > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches; Ken Schaal > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery > backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 21:54:15 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 18:54:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ken AC Coupling is always do-able, might not be the best solution but it can work well if set up right, you can use DC contactor to shut down strings or AC to kill the inverter, DC will respond faster. Use an Outback Radian(s) and Blue Ion Batteries for a sweet easy solution. I've used outback for many years with great successall the way back to the SMA SB1800 Jerry On Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:27 PM Ken Schaal wrote: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > On Sep 12, 2018 5:27 PM, "Ken Schaal" wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Sep 12 21:55:35 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 19:55:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Voc for effective string? In-Reply-To: References: <80966473-d319-afdf-b78e-5e92104c2bf7@sindelarsolar.com> <7c0aa143-baf5-efbe-5325-2b567524e9ae@psln.com> Message-ID: <2df1a4de-3b20-56e6-3fd6-f9999e07722d@sindelarsolar.com> Bill and all, To elaborate a bit on Ray's accurate suggestion with a bit of history... in the early days the general consensus developed that for general use, 36 cells (given that one cell produces just shy of 1/2 volt, regardless of cell size) was the standard cell count for battery charging. This was based on the understanding that a typical Vmp of 17.1-17.6 for a 36 cell module was necessary to equalize a 12V FLA battery to ~15.5 VDC in hot ambient daytime temperatures after all system losses due to various resistance in wire, connections, controllers, etc., were accounted for. You'll occasionally see early modules with 35, 33, 32 and even 30 cells, tried as "self-regulating" modules - didn't work, as it couldn't account for voltage variations due to temperature. Anyway, 36 cells is the default standard to charge a 12V battery. Extrapolating from this, there's a direct correlation between cell count and voltage in most applications: as 36 cells > 12Vnom, 72 cells > 24V and 60 cells > 20Vnom. Go outside of these rules of thumb only with clear understanding of these limitations. Three 60 cell modules is a nominal 80V; ideal for a 48 Vnom battery bank, while still below the 150V limit of many standard controllers in record cold temperatures. Three 72 cell modules, or 72 Vnom, is on the ragged edge of voltage compliance in cold winter climates. Allan On 9/12/2018 10:30 AM, Ray wrote: > > A 2nd option: A pair of 72 cell modules should be enough. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 9/12/18 9:21 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: >> Hi Bill, >> >> I agree with Allen. We get similar peak temps here and two 60 cell >> modules doesn't charge a 48V battery bank adequately. This effect >> would become worse over time with voltage degradation. I try to be at >> least 15% above highest expected battery voltage with Vmp of the >> strings. With 150V input limit on the Outback controllers, that >> leaves you with only one option, strings of 3, with our low temps. >> >> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 4:24 PM Sindelar Solar > > wrote: >> >> Bill, I wouldn't, especially with FLAs. I have seen this >> situation here, where the summer highs are similar, with a few >> homeowner/hack installations and no, 60-cell modules will not >> finish the charge in hot weather. Strings of three work just >> about perfect with modern charge controllers, especially in >> winter, as they range high enough but well below 150VDC limits. >> >> Allan >> >> On 9/11/2018 4:04 PM, Bill Battagin wrote: >>> >>> I've been on hold with OB for about 40 minutes now and I need to >>> know if 2 SW PVs with a Voc of 39.9 and a Vmpp of 31.3 will do >>> an effective job of charging a 48 volt LA battery especially >>> with temps of 95 degrees.  Anybody have experience with this or >>> similar,  Appreciate the feedback.  It just seems I'm a little >>> low in Vmpp if I want to equalize when its hot.  Will it be even >>> more questionable in 10 years as PVs age? >>> >>> OB did just pickup only to tell me I need Java for the string >>> sizing tool and he can't help me with this configuration. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 22:05:40 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 19:05:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Voc for effective string? In-Reply-To: <7c0aa143-baf5-efbe-5325-2b567524e9ae@psln.com> References: <80966473-d319-afdf-b78e-5e92104c2bf7@sindelarsolar.com> <7c0aa143-baf5-efbe-5325-2b567524e9ae@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill Stack up the panels to 3 to get voltages less then 150 VOC Never to Exceed with a FX 60 or 80 charge Controller and sure you can charge a 48 volt system 2 panels may work but high temps might hamstring your output. Jerry On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 3:04 PM Bill Battagin wrote: > I've been on hold with OB for about 40 minutes now and I need to know if 2 > SW PVs with a Voc of 39.9 and a Vmpp of 31.3 will do an effective job of > charging a 48 volt LA battery especially with temps of 95 degrees. Anybody > have experience with this or similar, Appreciate the feedback. It just > seems I'm a little low in Vmpp if I want to equalize when its hot. Will it > be even more questionable in 10 years as PVs age? > > OB did just pickup only to tell me I need Java for the string sizing tool > and he can't help me with this configuration. > > Bill > > On 9/11/2018 1:28 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > If it's a 48V system, you might also look at Blue Ion LiFePo batteries and > eliminate the lead for good. I just installed my first set and consider it > a game changer. > > Allan > On 9/11/2018 1:44 PM, Steve Romo wrote: > > Good afternoon everyone, > > What has been your experience with the Outback OPzV battery? I have a > client who destroyed a set of Solar One HUP batteries (2490 A/HR) by > forgetting to water them for a year. We are looking to take watering out of > the equation. > He does need this much storage (maybe more) My next thought was 3 strings > of GS SLR 1000 batteries (cycle life is a lot better but at twice the > cost) > I appreciate any and all input. > -- > Steve Romo > Mountain Power Solutions LLC > NABCEP certified PV Installer #110112-124 > Kohler Certified Generator Technician > Generac Certified Generator Technician > > 970-433-6316 > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-7561709842693718821_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Sep 12 23:20:36 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 21:20:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L16RE-2V set-points In-Reply-To: <48A1A2FF-D342-43FC-A7FD-BA13C33926F7@millersolar.com> References: <20180912155326.870EA105C7A@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <48A1A2FF-D342-43FC-A7FD-BA13C33926F7@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <690de35e-6953-5e11-96e1-68e1fa290009@sindelarsolar.com> William and all, While I too have avoided Trojan in recent years due to multiple reports of poor performance on this list, I want to note that in my experience, battery distributor experience will vary according to the individual branch. My local Albuquerque distributor is very good - prompt to respond, remembers my specific preferences (e.g. VRLAs left in their awkward boxes to avoid scuffing cases on our rough roads), gave me 2%10Net30 terms at my request, and even delivers to remote customer sites or meeting points near me. Batteries are the main component that I buy that's outside of solar distributor familiarity, and I have had to learn over many years how best to work with them. It's a quite different industry. Allan On 9/12/2018 12:31 PM, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > I used to buy Trojans. My vendor told me about 3 years ago that Trojan > had been acquired and the chemistry in the plates had changed. Later > they denied making that statement. > >  I had a set of L16s vastly underperform. Trojan suggest a > bulk/absorption voltage higher than any other manufacturer, a value > hard to achieve and maintain in a small off grid system. I replaced > them with US Battery and system performance improved. > > Due to the decline in quality I stopped using Trojan. Due to the > varying stories, I stopped using Battery Systems. We prefer the > MK/Deka brand. > > > William > > > > On Sep 12, 2018, at 11:33 AM, Ray > wrote: > >> Unfortunately I'm seeing premature failures of the 2 v models even >> more.  You have paralleled cells in each battery, and it can be >> difficult to even identify the failures.  I found the infared camera >> to be invaluable, as you can see the shorted cell clearly in a >> thermal image. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 9/12/18 9:53 AM, Drake wrote: >>> I agree with the comments that followed on this thread, and would >>> also like to add that Trojan L-16 batteries have a high rate of >>> premature failure. Possibly the 2 V cells are better, but the 6 V >>> cells seem very prone to dying early. Trojan batteries were robust >>> in past decades, but seem exceedingly fragile now. >>> >>> At 08:44 PM 9/11/2018, you wrote: >>>> Hello wrenches, >>>> >>>> I inspected a system that another company had installed. It had >>>> single string of 12 x Trojan L16RE-2V batteries about 2 years >>>> old.  They had experienced a battery melt-down.  It looks as >>>> though the meltdown had occurred internally, not from a bad connection. >>>> >>>> The system was dual stack Outback VFXR-3524A inverters (to be >>>> precise one was a sealed unit).  The set-points were as follows: >>>> Absorb Voltage was 29.8V >>>> Absorb Time was 6.0 hours >>>> Float Voltage was 27.0V >>>> Rebulk Voltage was 27.0V >>>> End Amps was 0A >>>> >>>> These settings extended similarly to 2 x FM80 charge controllers. >>>> >>>> I was able to jumper the melted battery and get her power in 15 >>>> minutes.  Her installer had left her without power for 2 weeks.  >>>> My clients will kill me if that happened! >>>> >>>> Anyway, I believe these set-points are way out of whack and too >>>> aggressive.  The voltage is OK (Trojan recommends ~29.6V for this) >>>> but the Absorb time seems way too long, Rebulk is too high and end >>>> amps isn't helping.  However, Im not finding a definitive article >>>> from Trojan that describes typical Absorb times or even how to >>>> adjust towards a good Absorb Time, based on specific gravity >>>> measurements or amperage absorption.  >>>> >>>> My diagnosis is that these batteries have been cooked over the past >>>> 2 years.  In the electrolyte, there is noticeable "floaties".  >>>> The client said that the original installer had accused her of not >>>> using distilled water, but I don't believe that would cause her >>>> symptoms.  I believe the floaties are plate material. >>>> >>>> I'd be interested in wrenches opinions familiar with these >>>> batteries if these are appropriate settings for a low energy >>>> user.  I will attempt to get through to Trojan as well. >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mac Lewis >>>> >>>> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>>> *_______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at mendocinosolar.com Thu Sep 13 00:19:27 2018 From: bruce at mendocinosolar.com (Bruce Erickson) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 21:19:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC In-Reply-To: <010501d44b00$dc4cc950$94e65bf0$@com> References: <94D84B24855B430ABF367135DA9F8326@PeterPC> <010501d44b00$dc4cc950$94e65bf0$@com> Message-ID: <27D4F2C6-F346-4FF7-87BC-C058A1C38D67@mendocinosolar.com> Hi Marco, I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and Pika options for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for myself, and found OB to be so much more expensive. The customer really wanted a system that would be to be able to charge the batteries off a generator in an outage, understandably. But the extra thousands in cost for OB ended up being prohibitive. Add-on rapid shutdown is a killer. So he’s opting for a nice modern high voltage DC system, with optimizers and built-in RSD, but when there’s an extended outage, he’ll have to hope the sun comes out right after the storm to recharge the batteries, or he’ll end up in the dark again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a high voltage inverter that allows generator charging, or a third-party battery charger, that I’m not aware of. Otherwise high voltage systems are very limited for backup, at least in winter storm scenarios. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax bruce at mendocinosolar.com Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994 > On Sep 12, 2018, at 6:26 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > > Aloha all, > > At the risk of whacking at a hornet’s nest…lower voltage DC is soooo 80s and 90s especially when it comes to grid-tie applications with battery storage. > > The time of OutBack and Schneider and all the others doing 48VDC is drawing to close. Enough already. Thank you for your service. > > The sooner the industry fully migrates to higher voltage DC (Tesla, LG Chem, BYD and others), the better. > > marco > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Peter Giroux > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 3:03 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. > > Ken > > We have had terrific success with AC Coupling. Yes there are some differences from Dc Coupled systems but if built properly, customer is willing to learn how to use it and maintain it and you put the correct relays in to shut off the string inverters if battery voltage gets to high, great. > > If you have a customer that refuses to exercise the system, not check the batteries if they are fla's and overloads it when the power goes down then not so cool. We have customers that power shave with it, have had backup power for days until the power came back on as they monitored the loads and were judicious about use. Ray is right in the sense the customer needs to learn how to use the system or they can royally screw it up ( yes we have had two do this, one learned the other not ). > > The Radians have been great work horses for this application, sadly as Ray mentioned Outback has moved away from it as a primary solution. > > peter giroux > ASAE > Atlanta >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Ken Schaal >> To: RE-wrenches ; Ken Schaal >> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu Sep 13 02:14:39 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 20:14:39 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC Message-ID: The SMA Sunny Storage looks promising. It will be able to work with the LGC RESU10 HV battery and, sooner rather than later I hope, BYD package as well. And it will allow for a backup generator tie in. Ta-dah! marco On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Bruce Erickson wrote: > Hi Marco, > > I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and Pika > options for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for myself, and > found OB to be so much more expensive. The customer really wanted a system > that would be to be able to charge the batteries off a generator in an > outage, understandably. But the extra thousands in cost for OB ended up > being prohibitive. Add-on rapid shutdown is a killer. So he’s opting for a > nice modern high voltage DC system, with optimizers and built-in RSD, but > when there’s an extended outage, he’ll have to hope the sun comes out right > after the storm to recharge the batteries, or he’ll end up in the dark > again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a high voltage inverter > that allows generator charging, or a third-party battery charger, that I’m > not aware of. Otherwise high voltage systems are very limited for backup, > at least in winter storm scenarios. > > *Bruce Erickson* > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > *Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since* *1994* > > > > > > > > On Sep 12, 2018, at 6:26 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > > Aloha all, > > At the risk of whacking at a hornet’s nest…lower voltage DC is soooo 80s > and 90s especially when it comes to grid-tie applications with battery > storage. > > The time of OutBack and Schneider and all the others doing 48VDC is > drawing to close. Enough already. Thank you for your service. > > The sooner the industry fully migrates to higher voltage DC (Tesla, LG > Chem, BYD and others), the better. > > marco > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Peter Giroux > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 12, 2018 3:03 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding > battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. > > Ken > > We have had terrific success with AC Coupling. Yes there are some > differences from Dc Coupled systems but if built properly, customer is > willing to learn how to use it and maintain it and you put the correct > relays in to shut off the string inverters if battery voltage gets to high, > great. > > If you have a customer that refuses to exercise the system, not check > the batteries if they are fla's and overloads it when the power goes down > then not so cool. We have customers that power shave with it, have had > backup power for days until the power came back on as they monitored the > loads and were judicious about use. Ray is right in the sense the customer > needs to learn how to use the system or they can royally screw it up ( yes > we have had two do this, one learned the other not ). > > The Radians have been great work horses for this application, sadly as > Ray mentioned Outback has moved away from it as a primary solution. > > peter giroux > ASAE > Atlanta > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Ken Schaal > *To:* RE-wrenches ; Ken Schaal > > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery > backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists. > re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists. > re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Thu Sep 13 08:21:00 2018 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 08:21:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. In-Reply-To: <205ea5c3-03f1-1505-5843-8e2cbd9b2996@solarray.com> References: <205ea5c3-03f1-1505-5843-8e2cbd9b2996@solarray.com> Message-ID: I agree with everything Ray has said when you're using a system with lead-acid batteries, however this doesn't apply to lithium-ion. Li batteries don't need multistage charging like LA batteries do so they would be a perfect fit for a retro-fit battery backup system that can only bulk charge. I'd also suggest people check out the Enphase IQ8 system which allows the inverters to operate without the grid with no storage. They should also be able to black start an AC coupled system with no grid unlike other AC coupled designs. I haven't seen it in person but two of my co-workers toured their demo project and it seems to live up to everything Enphase is claiming. Thanks, Will On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 8:38 PM Ray wrote: > I didn't watch the whole thing, but it looked like a standard AC couple > set up with an Outback Radian. My understanding is that Outback no longer > supports AC Coupling, BTW. I would never use that for an off grid system > or for longer outages. In a very brief explanation, it essentially > bypasses any charge controlling to the batteries, and puts full Array power > into the batteries until a relay (or phase shifting) disconnects the > array. No three stage charging, no taper charging, no float, no temp > compensation. Its like trying to fill a 5 gal bucket with a fire house, or > drive a car with a throttle that's either off or at full throttle, no in > between. The other issue is that if the batteries get low and the inverter > shuts off, the system will not recharge, and after a couple of weeks the > batteries will be sulfated beyond recovery. > > My guess is that manus that advocated this approach got into trouble from > end users that fried expensive battery banks during longer outages. I > would consider it the equivalent of cheap backup generators: a great backup > system for folks that don't need it. There are probably thousands of > those out there with happy customers and installers, because its never > actually been used for more than a few hours, and the batteries are > properly charged from the grid 99.8% of the time. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/12/18 6:11 PM, Ken Schaal wrote: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Thu Sep 13 08:28:05 2018 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 08:28:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multi-meters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I've started doing some work on 1,000 VDC systems so I need to upgrade my meters. What I'd really like is a clamp-on amp meter that is rated for 1,500 VDC but they don't seem to exist. I want to get something now that I won't have to upgrade in a few years if I end up working on 1,500 VDC systems. The only 1,500 VDC meter I've found are the Amprobe HD160C which is a multi-meter (not clamp-on amp meter) that is rated for 1,500 VDC but can only measure up to 2 A with their amp clamp attachment. The other option is the Seaward Solar Utility Pro but I don't have that much money in the budget. Is it worth getting a 1,500 VDC meter or is 1,000 VDC enough? What are you techs in the field using? Thanks, Will -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 09:58:32 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 06:58:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches One size might not fit all the SMA Storage is limited to max 3 LG batteries, that is a far cry from some of my smaller systems. Also LG per LG is not a good battery for sustained back up, you may want to verify but there is also inverter limitations. Outback might be an option for true long term output while off grid. Jerry On Sep 12, 2018 11:22 PM, "Marco Mangelsdorf" wrote: The SMA Sunny Storage looks promising. It will be able to work with the LGC RESU10 HV battery and, sooner rather than later I hope, BYD package as well. And it will allow for a backup generator tie in. Ta-dah! marco On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Bruce Erickson wrote: > Hi Marco, > > I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and Pika > options for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for myself, and > found OB to be so much more expensive. The customer really wanted a system > that would be to be able to charge the batteries off a generator in an > outage, understandably. But the extra thousands in cost for OB ended up > being prohibitive. Add-on rapid shutdown is a killer. So he’s opting for a > nice modern high voltage DC system, with optimizers and built-in RSD, but > when there’s an extended outage, he’ll have to hope the sun comes out right > after the storm to recharge the batteries, or he’ll end up in the dark > again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a high voltage inverter > that allows generator charging, or a third-party battery charger, that I’m > not aware of. Otherwise high voltage systems are very limited for backup, > at least in winter storm scenarios. > > *Bruce Erickson* > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > *Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since* *1994* > > > > > > > > On Sep 12, 2018, at 6:26 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > > Aloha all, > > At the risk of whacking at a hornet’s nest…lower voltage DC is soooo 80s > and 90s especially when it comes to grid-tie applications with battery > storage. > > The time of OutBack and Schneider and all the others doing 48VDC is > drawing to close. Enough already. Thank you for your service. > > The sooner the industry fully migrates to higher voltage DC (Tesla, LG > Chem, BYD and others), the better. > > marco > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Peter Giroux > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 12, 2018 3:03 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding > battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. > > Ken > > We have had terrific success with AC Coupling. Yes there are some > differences from Dc Coupled systems but if built properly, customer is > willing to learn how to use it and maintain it and you put the correct > relays in to shut off the string inverters if battery voltage gets to high, > great. > > If you have a customer that refuses to exercise the system, not check > the batteries if they are fla's and overloads it when the power goes down > then not so cool. We have customers that power shave with it, have had > backup power for days until the power came back on as they monitored the > loads and were judicious about use. Ray is right in the sense the customer > needs to learn how to use the system or they can royally screw it up ( yes > we have had two do this, one learned the other not ). > > The Radians have been great work horses for this application, sadly as > Ray mentioned Outback has moved away from it as a primary solution. > > peter giroux > ASAE > Atlanta > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Ken Schaal > *To:* RE-wrenches ; Ken Schaal > > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery > backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Thu Sep 13 10:10:46 2018 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 14:10:46 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC Message-ID: Marco - The Sunny Boy Storage "Advanced Backup Unit" accessory or ABU will be discussed at SPI in a couple weeks - first units are being stocked now at our warehouses in US. The ABU will allow the SBS to be a grid former in case of utility outage, however there are no plans to have any generator inputs/controls to allow for battery charging from generator. And yes, BYD BBox HV 5.12/7.68/10.24 devices will be supported when available in US (will be this year I understand) Mike ----- The SMA Sunny Storage looks promising. It will be able to work with the LGC RESU10 HV battery and, sooner rather than later I hope, BYD package as well. And it will allow for a backup generator tie in. Ta-dah! marco On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Bruce Erickson > wrote: > Hi Marco, > > I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and Pika > options for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for myself, and > found OB to be so much more expensive. The customer really wanted a system > that would be to be able to charge the batteries off a generator in an > outage, understandably. But the extra thousands in cost for OB ended up > being prohibitive. Add-on rapid shutdown is a killer. So he's opting for a > nice modern high voltage DC system, with optimizers and built-in RSD, but > when there's an extended outage, he'll have to hope the sun comes out right > after the storm to recharge the batteries, or he'll end up in the dark > again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there's a high voltage inverter > that allows generator charging, or a third-party battery charger, that I'm > not aware of. Otherwise high voltage systems are very limited for backup, > at least in winter storm scenarios. > > *Bruce Erickson* > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > *Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since* *1994* > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Sep 13 10:43:45 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 10:43:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <946b61d4-4726-d5e1-6934-26ce07abfd8c@entech-engineering.com> We just struggled through our first two OB RS Radian systems. We did not opt for the "package" including batteries as we and our customers thought it was overpriced.  We build our own battery boxes and use cost competitive batteries based on the customer's need. OB needs to improve the installer experience for deciphering their manuals for at least the 4048.  It seems like the forgotten stepchildcompared to the 8048. That being said, we did get the systems running. The Radian seems solid. Probably most of you know I am very much opposed to NEC Rapid Shutdownfor reasons I have stated on this list. Modifying it, if not eliminating it, would not make systems less safe, and would greatly reduce these machinations of how to best meet this type of customer's needs. Chris On 9/13/2018 2:14 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > The SMA Sunny Storage looks promising. > > It will be able to work with the LGC RESU10 HV battery and, sooner > rather than later I hope, BYD package as well. > > And it will allow for a backup generator tie in. > > Ta-dah! > > marco > > On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Bruce Erickson > > wrote: > > Hi Marco, > > I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and > Pika options for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for > myself, and found OB to be so much more expensive. The customer > really wanted a system that would be to be able to charge the > batteries off a generator in an outage, understandably. But the > extra thousands in cost for OB ended up being prohibitive. Add-on > rapid shutdown is a killer. So he’s opting for a nice modern high > voltage DC system, with optimizers and built-in RSD, but when > there’s an extended outage, he’ll have to hope the sun comes out > right after the storm to recharge the batteries, or he’ll end up > in the dark again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a high > voltage inverter that allows generator charging, or a third-party > battery charger, that I’m not aware of. Otherwise high voltage > systems are very limited for backup, at least in winter storm > scenarios. > > *Bruce Erickson* > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > /Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since//1994/ > > > > > > > >> On Sep 12, 2018, at 6:26 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf >> > wrote: >> >> Aloha all, >> At the risk of whacking at a hornet’s nest…lower voltage DC is >> soooo 80s and 90s especially when it comes to grid-tie >> applications with battery storage. >> The time of OutBack and Schneider and all the others doing 48VDC >> is drawing to close.  Enough already.  Thank you for your service. >> The sooner the industry fully migrates to higher voltage DC >> (Tesla, LG Chem, BYD and others), the better. >> marco >> *From:*RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ]*On Behalf >> Of*Peter Giroux >> *Sent:*Wednesday, September 12, 2018 3:03 PM >> *To:*RE-wrenches >> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to >> adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be >> appreciated. >> Ken >> We have had terrific success with AC Coupling. Yes there are some >> differences from Dc Coupled systems but if built properly, >> customer is willing to learn how to use it and maintain it and >> you put the correct relays in to shut off the string inverters if >> battery voltage gets to high, great. >> If you have a customer that refuses to exercise the system, not >> check the batteries if they are fla's and overloads it when the >> power goes down then not so cool. We have customers that power >> shave with it, have had backup power for days until the power >> came back on as they monitored the loads and were judicious about >> use. Ray is right in the sense the customer needs to learn how to >> use the system or they can royally screw it up ( yes we have had >> two do this, one learned the other not ). >> The Radians have been great work horses for this application, >> sadly as Ray mentioned Outback has moved away from it as a >> primary solution. >> peter giroux >> ASAE >> Atlanta >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:*Ken Schaal >>> *To:*RE-wrenches ;Ken >>> Schaal >>> *Sent:*Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM >>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding >>> battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 10:50:59 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 07:50:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multi-meters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Will, I found this unit from Japan. Hioki CM4372 jay peltz power > On Sep 13, 2018, at 5:28 AM, Will White wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I've started doing some work on 1,000 VDC systems so I need to upgrade my meters. What I'd really like is a clamp-on amp meter that is rated for 1,500 VDC but they don't seem to exist. I want to get something now that I won't have to upgrade in a few years if I end up working on 1,500 VDC systems. > > The only 1,500 VDC meter I've found are the Amprobe HD160C which is a multi-meter (not clamp-on amp meter) that is rated for 1,500 VDC but can only measure up to 2 A with their amp clamp attachment. The other option is the Seaward Solar Utility Pro but I don't have that much money in the budget. > > Is it worth getting a 1,500 VDC meter or is 1,000 VDC enough? What are you techs in the field using? > > Thanks, > Will > > -- > Will White > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy. > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Thu Sep 13 12:44:54 2018 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 11:44:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar CS6P-260P Message-ID: Greetings, I am looking to replace a damaged Canadian Solar CS6P-260P. Does anyone happen to have one lying around? This is on a ground mount with top down attachment and i would prefer to not have to slide the whole row to make room for a larger dimension module. Width is 39.1" (992mm). Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar1online at charter.net Thu Sep 13 14:17:59 2018 From: solar1online at charter.net (solar1online at charter.net) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 13:17:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multi-meters Message-ID: Hi Will, Jay, et al, I have three years experience with a lower capacity Hioki clamp meter and could not be more pleased. Have you investigated what a Google search offers? Thanks, Bill Loesch314 631 1094 -----------------------------------------From: "jay" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Thursday September 13 2018 10:07:17AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Multi-meters HI Will, I found this unit from Japan. HIOKI CM4372 jay peltz power On Sep 13, 2018, at 5:28 AM, Will White wrote: Hello Wrenches, I've started doing some work on 1,000 VDC systems so I need to upgrade my meters. What I'd really like is a clamp-on amp meter that is rated for 1,500 VDC but they don't seem to exist. I want to get something now that I won't have to upgrade in a few years if I end up working on 1,500 VDC systems. The only 1,500 VDC meter I've found are the Amprobe HD160C which is a multi-meter (not clamp-on amp meter) that is rated for 1,500 VDC but can only measure up to 2 A with their amp clamp attachment. The other option is the Seaward Solar Utility Pro but I don't have that much money in the budget. Is it worth getting a 1,500 VDC meter or is 1,000 VDC enough? What are you techs in the field using? Thanks, Will -- WILL WHITE Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org [2] w: www.solarenergy.org [3] p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 _FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy._ Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change [4]. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: [6]http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] mailto:will at solarenergy.org [2] mailto:will at solarenergy.org [3] http://www.solarenergy.org/ [4] http://solarenergy.org/donate [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Thu Sep 13 15:18:44 2018 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 15:18:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multi-meters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've google searched for 1,500 VDC meters and didn't come up with anything other than the Amprobe model. I looked at the Hioki website and it looks pretty amazing and it costs around $340. It's got many features plus it hooks to an app via bluetooth so it can datalog. On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 2:18 PM wrote: > Hi Will, Jay, et al, > > I have three years experience with a lower capacity Hioki clamp meter and > could not be more pleased. > > Have you investigated what a Google search offers? > > Thanks, > > Bill Loesch > 314 631 1094 > > > ----------------------------------------- > From: "jay" > To: "RE-wrenches" > Cc: > Sent: Thursday September 13 2018 10:07:17AM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Multi-meters > > HI Will, > > I found this unit from Japan. Hioki CM4372 > > jay > > peltz power > > > > On Sep 13, 2018, at 5:28 AM, Will White wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I've started doing some work on 1,000 VDC systems so I need to upgrade my > meters. What I'd really like is a clamp-on amp meter that is rated for > 1,500 VDC but they don't seem to exist. I want to get something now that I > won't have to upgrade in a few years if I end up working on 1,500 VDC > systems. > > The only 1,500 VDC meter I've found are the Amprobe HD160C which is a > multi-meter (not clamp-on amp meter) that is rated for 1,500 VDC but can > only measure up to 2 A with their amp clamp attachment. The other option is > the Seaward Solar Utility Pro but I don't have that much money in the > budget. > > Is it worth getting a 1,500 VDC meter or is 1,000 VDC enough? What are you > techs in the field using? > > Thanks, > Will > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > [image: image] > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power > the world with renewable energy.* > > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 15:30:51 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 12:30:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multi-meters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Will, Wrenches Fluke make quite a few, the 381 and 376 are both 1000vdc/vac, they do ac and dc amps also which most cheaper units only do AC amps. There are more too, l have found its best to stay away from some of the less known meters brands, my scopes are even higher but so is the cost. Jerry On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 8:07 AM jay wrote: > HI Will, > > I found this unit from Japan. Hioki CM4372 > > jay > > peltz power > > > > On Sep 13, 2018, at 5:28 AM, Will White wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I've started doing some work on 1,000 VDC systems so I need to upgrade my > meters. What I'd really like is a clamp-on amp meter that is rated for > 1,500 VDC but they don't seem to exist. I want to get something now that I > won't have to upgrade in a few years if I end up working on 1,500 VDC > systems. > > The only 1,500 VDC meter I've found are the Amprobe HD160C which is a > multi-meter (not clamp-on amp meter) that is rated for 1,500 VDC but can > only measure up to 2 A with their amp clamp attachment. The other option is > the Seaward Solar Utility Pro but I don't have that much money in the > budget. > > Is it worth getting a 1,500 VDC meter or is 1,000 VDC enough? What are you > techs in the field using? > > Thanks, > Will > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power > the world with renewable energy.* > > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Sep 13 13:02:16 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 13:02:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar CS6P-260P Message-ID: Remove one from the end of a row, install it as the replacement. Put a new oddball at the end of the row. Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------From: Kristopher SchmidDate: Thu, Sep 13, 2018 12:45 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar CS6P-260P Greetings, I am looking to replace a damaged Canadian Solar CS6P-260P.  Does anyone happen to have one lying around?  This is on a ground mount with top down attachment and i would prefer to not have to slide the whole row to make room for a larger dimension module.  Width is 39.1" (992mm). Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Sep 13 12:23:48 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 09:23:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC In-Reply-To: <010501d44b00$dc4cc950$94e65bf0$@com> References: <94D84B24855B430ABF367135DA9F8326@PeterPC> <010501d44b00$dc4cc950$94e65bf0$@com> Message-ID: I recently finished an install with the Iron Edison of Colorado. The install was with their LFP 48v 400AH 20KWH battery. Here is a link below. They are plug and play with Schneider, others also?, and have a 16 year design life with better prices than Blue Ion. They also make the 30 year life NIFE (edison) battery. Nice to be able to buy them from the manufacturer in CO. https://ironedison.com/48-volt-lithium-battery-for-solar Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 12 Sep 2018 15:26:53 -1000, "Marco Mangelsdorf" wrote: Aloha all, At the risk of whacking at a hornet's nest...lower voltage DC is soooo 80s and 90s especially when it comes to grid-tie applications with battery storage. The time of OutBack and Schneider and all the others doing 48VDC is drawing to close. Enough already. Thank you for your service. The sooner the industry fully migrates to higher voltage DC (Tesla, LG Chem, BYD and others), the better. marco FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] ON BEHALF OF Peter Giroux SENT: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 3:03 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. Ken We have had terrific success with AC Coupling. Yes there are some differences from Dc Coupled systems but if built properly, customer is willing to learn how to use it and maintain it and you put the correct relays in to shut off the string inverters if battery voltage gets to high, great. If you have a customer that refuses to exercise the system, not check the batteries if they are fla's and overloads it when the power goes down then not so cool. We have customers that power shave with it, have had backup power for days until the power came back on as they monitored the loads and were judicious about use. Ray is right in the sense the customer needs to learn how to use the system or they can royally screw it up ( yes we have had two do this, one learned the other not ). The Radians have been great work horses for this application, sadly as Ray mentioned Outback has moved away from it as a primary solution. peter giroux ASAE Atlanta ----- Original Message ----- FROM: Ken Schaal [3] TO: RE-wrenches [4] ; Ken Schaal [5] SENT: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q [6] ------------------------- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:Ken at commonwealthsolar.com [4] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] mailto:cwsolar1 at gmail.com [6] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Sep 13 23:16:27 2018 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 03:16:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multi-meters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000ddbb80fea41979a3dbc036b95964a@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> I've been packing a Hioki Power Quality Analyser along with me to all manner of remote sites for at least a decade. It has performed perfectly and would not hesitate to recommend that brand. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Will White Sent: September-13-18 12:19 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Multi-meters I've google searched for 1,500 VDC meters and didn't come up with anything other than the Amprobe model. I looked at the Hioki website and it looks pretty amazing and it costs around $340. It's got many features plus it hooks to an app via bluetooth so it can datalog. On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 2:18 PM > wrote: Hi Will, Jay, et al, I have three years experience with a lower capacity Hioki clamp meter and could not be more pleased. Have you investigated what a Google search offers? Thanks, Bill Loesch 314 631 1094 ----------------------------------------- From: "jay" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Thursday September 13 2018 10:07:17AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Multi-meters HI Will, I found this unit from Japan. Hioki CM4372 jay peltz power On Sep 13, 2018, at 5:28 AM, Will White > wrote: Hello Wrenches, I've started doing some work on 1,000 VDC systems so I need to upgrade my meters. What I'd really like is a clamp-on amp meter that is rated for 1,500 VDC but they don't seem to exist. I want to get something now that I won't have to upgrade in a few years if I end up working on 1,500 VDC systems. The only 1,500 VDC meter I've found are the Amprobe HD160C which is a multi-meter (not clamp-on amp meter) that is rated for 1,500 VDC but can only measure up to 2 A with their amp clamp attachment. The other option is the Seaward Solar Utility Pro but I don't have that much money in the budget. Is it worth getting a 1,500 VDC meter or is 1,000 VDC enough? What are you techs in the field using? Thanks, Will -- Will White Curriculum Developer [image] e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy. Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Will White Curriculum Developer [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=12H3Cu2gnX7TKTeETn1WsYqa8cp6gsEj1&revid=0B7yAwArWHgPbNzhGK00wT0diY1c1NWhlRlNocDRVd045eTFjPQ] e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy. Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 01:02:46 2018 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 23:02:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated. In-Reply-To: References: <205ea5c3-03f1-1505-5843-8e2cbd9b2996@solarray.com> Message-ID: Anyone have any experience with the SMA Sunny Boy Storage for this application? Li+ compatible, HVDC bus, black-start capable... looks like no generator input though. I wonder how well it works when AC coupled with with non-SMA inverters. *Regards, * *Andrew Truitt* www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 6:21 AM Will White wrote: > I agree with everything Ray has said when you're using a system with > lead-acid batteries, however this doesn't apply to lithium-ion. Li > batteries don't need multistage charging like LA batteries do so they would > be a perfect fit for a retro-fit battery backup system that can only bulk > charge. > > I'd also suggest people check out the Enphase IQ8 system which allows the > inverters to operate without the grid with no storage. They should also be > able to black start an AC coupled system with no grid unlike other AC > coupled designs. I haven't seen it in person but two of my co-workers > toured their demo project and it seems to live up to everything Enphase is > claiming. > > Thanks, > Will > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 8:38 PM Ray wrote: > >> I didn't watch the whole thing, but it looked like a standard AC couple >> set up with an Outback Radian. My understanding is that Outback no longer >> supports AC Coupling, BTW. I would never use that for an off grid system >> or for longer outages. In a very brief explanation, it essentially >> bypasses any charge controlling to the batteries, and puts full Array power >> into the batteries until a relay (or phase shifting) disconnects the >> array. No three stage charging, no taper charging, no float, no temp >> compensation. Its like trying to fill a 5 gal bucket with a fire house, or >> drive a car with a throttle that's either off or at full throttle, no in >> between. The other issue is that if the batteries get low and the inverter >> shuts off, the system will not recharge, and after a couple of weeks the >> batteries will be sulfated beyond recovery. >> >> My guess is that manus that advocated this approach got into trouble from >> end users that fried expensive battery banks during longer outages. I >> would consider it the equivalent of cheap backup generators: a great backup >> system for folks that don't need it. There are probably thousands of >> those out there with happy customers and installers, because its never >> actually been used for more than a few hours, and the batteries are >> properly charged from the grid 99.8% of the time. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 9/12/18 6:11 PM, Ken Schaal wrote: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power > the world with renewable energy.* > > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Sep 15 10:39:25 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 10:39:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is this what you are referring to? http://en.byd.com/energy/download/high-voltage/B-Box%20High%20Voltage%20Specification.p At 10:10 AM 9/13/2018, you wrote: >And yes, BYD BBox HV 5.12/7.68/10.24 devices will be supported when >available in US (will be this year I understand) > > > > > From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Sep 15 10:58:31 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 10:58:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reliable 48 to 24 V DC to DC reducer Message-ID: Since Solar Converters seems to have evaporated, I'm not sure where to look for a 48 to 24 V DC to DC converter. Samplex has 24 to 12. It seems like someone mentioned a Canadian company that makes these. I need to step down power from a 48 V battery bank to power El Sid pumps for an offgrid hydronic heating system. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 11:09:52 2018 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 09:09:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reliable 48 to 24 V DC to DC reducer In-Reply-To: <20180915145839.10C7F103854@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180915145839.10C7F103854@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <0543B871-8762-4A70-8F12-36870A533F57@gmail.com> Drake, I’ve run into this problem numerous times in the last year, as I’ve had a number of off-grid customers that I have upgraded from legacy 12V or 24V systems to 48V. Left behind are often things like expensive DC fridges and DC heating pumps. I’ve searched for converters a number of places and have found that eBay (and Amazon) have a ton of DC-DC converters available. Yes they are Chinese, and the many different brands seem to be clones of one another, so It’s hard to pick one with confidence. I was suspicious of them at first, but have several out in the field that have worked well for some time now. Most are in the 10-20A output current range, but there are bunch of different voltage configurations available. Just do a search on eBay with your desired voltages and you’ll pull something up. For the 48-12V conversion range, the solution I’ve settled on is golf cart DC-DC converters, which tend to be high quality and are designed to run 12V lights and accessories from 48V golf cart battery banks. I find these on eBay as well and have had great luck with them. -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com > On Sep 15, 2018, at 8:58 AM, Drake wrote: > > Since Solar Converters seems to have evaporated, I'm not sure where to look for a 48 to 24 V DC to DC converter. Samplex has 24 to 12. It seems like someone mentioned a Canadian company that makes these. > > I need to step down power from a 48 V battery bank to power El Sid pumps for an offgrid hydronic heating system. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > <>Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Sat Sep 15 11:31:24 2018 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 08:31:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reliable 48 to 24 V DC to DC reducer In-Reply-To: <20180915145837.DF64E103047@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180915145837.DF64E103047@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I have had great luck using cheap LED drivers. They say 110-240 vac input but they rectify the input to DC. I have used them to run 12 and 24 volt stuff off of 48 vdc and even 400 vdc. They operate down to about 35 volts dc. They are available in a variety of output voltage and current. And they are isolated. And they only cost a few dollars. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F152134115704 David Katz On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 7:58 AM Drake wrote: > Since Solar Converters seems to have evaporated, I'm not sure where to > look for a 48 to 24 V DC to DC converter. Samplex has 24 to 12. It seems > like someone mentioned a Canadian company that makes these. > > I need to step down power from a 48 V battery bank to power El Sid pumps > for an offgrid hydronic heating system. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Sep 15 11:43:56 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 09:43:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reliable 48 to 24 V DC to DC reducer In-Reply-To: References: <20180915145837.DF64E103047@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: While not as inexpensive as David's solution, I have used Mean Well converters with success. This manufacturer supplied the DC-DC step-down converters used by Wattsun for their tracker drives, so there's a pretty long history with them. Check out https://www.trcelectronics.com/View/Mean-Well/RSD-200C-48.shtml. Allan On 9/15/2018 9:31 AM, David Katz wrote: > I have had great luck using cheap LED drivers. They say 110-240 vac > input but they rectify the input to DC. I have used them to run 12 and > 24 volt stuff off of 48 vdc and even 400 vdc. They operate down to > about 35 volts dc. They are available in a variety of output voltage > and current. And they are isolated.   And they only cost a few dollars. > https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F152134115704 > David Katz > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 7:58 AM Drake > > wrote: > > Since Solar Converters seems to have evaporated, I'm not sure > where to look for a 48 to 24 V DC to DC converter. Samlex has 24 > to 12. It seems like someone mentioned a Canadian company that > makes these. > > I need to step down power from a 48 V battery bank to power El Sid > pumps for an offgrid hydronic  heating system. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roberto.kruse at sercsa.com Sat Sep 15 12:07:54 2018 From: roberto.kruse at sercsa.com (Roberto Kruse) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 10:07:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reliable 48 to 24 V DC to DC reducer In-Reply-To: References: <20180915145837.DF64E103047@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I recommend Victron Energy DC/DC converters. They come with a 5 year warranty. [image: image.png] Roberto Kruse Sistemas de Energía Costa Rica El sáb., 15 sept. 2018 a las 9:44, Sindelar Solar () escribió: > While not as inexpensive as David's solution, I have used Mean Well > converters with success. This manufacturer supplied the DC-DC step-down > converters used by Wattsun for their tracker drives, so there's a pretty > long history with them. Check out > https://www.trcelectronics.com/View/Mean-Well/RSD-200C-48.shtml. > > Allan > On 9/15/2018 9:31 AM, David Katz wrote: > > I have had great luck using cheap LED drivers. They say 110-240 vac input > but they rectify the input to DC. I have used them to run 12 and 24 volt > stuff off of 48 vdc and even 400 vdc. They operate down to about 35 volts > dc. They are available in a variety of output voltage and current. And they > are isolated. And they only cost a few dollars. > > https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F152134115704 > David Katz > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 7:58 AM Drake < > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: > >> Since Solar Converters seems to have evaporated, I'm not sure where to >> look for a 48 to 24 V DC to DC converter. Samlex has 24 to 12. It seems >> like someone mentioned a Canadian company that makes these. >> >> I need to step down power from a 48 V battery bank to power El Sid pumps >> for an offgrid hydronic heating system. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> >> >> >> >> >> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified >> Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Ing Roberto Kruse Font* | *SERC – Costa Rica*| *roberto.kruse at sercsa.com * Tel (506)2273-4545 | Fax (506)2273-1010 | www.energiasolar.c r [image: cid:X.MA2.1244648096 at aol.com]*Por nuestro Planeta…**,* promueva la información digital. ------------------------------ Este mensaje es para el uso de la persona/entidad a la cual está dirigido. Este mensaje puede contener información confidencial que no debe ser revelada. Si le ha llegado por error, la distribución o copia del mismo,o la diseminación de la información aquí contenida, está estrictamente prohibida. Si usted ha recibido este mensaje por equivocación, por favor destrúyalo, o devuélvalo a quién se lo envió. Gracias. ----- This message is intended for the use of the individual/entity to whom it is addressed. This message may contain privileged information exempt from disclosure. If you are not the addressee, distribution or copying of this message, or dissemination of the information contained herein, is strictly prohibited. If you should receive this message in error, please destroy it, or return to sender. Thank You. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 282695 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 965 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Sep 15 14:53:27 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 12:53:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reliable 48 to 24 V DC to DC reducer In-Reply-To: <20180915145839.DA84F103AF7@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180915145839.DA84F103AF7@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: SCI was that Canadian company.  Samlex does make a 48 v to 24 v converter modelIDC-100C-24. However, I would consider skipping the El cid pumps and going to the new TACO or Grundfos ECM drive circulators. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/15/18 8:58 AM, Drake wrote: > Since Solar Converters seems to have evaporated, I'm not sure where to > look for a 48 to 24 V DC to DC converter. Samplex has 24 to 12. It > seems like someone mentioned a Canadian company that makes these. > > I need to step down power from a 48 V battery bank to power El Sid > pumps for an offgrid hydronic  heating system. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 10:58:09 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 07:58:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: <20180915143932.1D1C7103968@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180915143932.1D1C7103968@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <691AB20F-7671-4C0B-BAC2-1628B4D179ED@gmail.com> HI Drake, Can you upload that http again? The link doesn’t work. thx jay > On Sep 15, 2018, at 7:39 AM, Drake wrote: > > Is this what you are referring to? http://en.byd.com/energy/download/high-voltage/B-Box%20High%20Voltage%20Specification.p > > At 10:10 AM 9/13/2018, you wrote: > >> And yes, BYD BBox HV 5.12/7.68/10.24 devices will be supported when available in US (will be this year I understand) >> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 11:00:19 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 08:00:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> HI Harry, The battery is charged from the AC side correct? And is the charging algorithm inside the ABU. If so why couldn’t you use a generator to charge the battery? jay peltz power > On Sep 13, 2018, at 7:10 AM, Harry Mahon wrote: > > Marco – > > The Sunny Boy Storage “Advanced Backup Unit” accessory or ABU will be discussed at SPI in a couple weeks – first units are being stocked now at our warehouses in US. The ABU will allow the SBS to be a grid former in case of utility outage, however there are no plans to have any generator inputs/controls to allow for battery charging from generat > And yes, BYD BBox HV 5.12/7.68/10.24 devices will be supported when available in US (will be this year I understand) > > Mike > > ----- > > The SMA Sunny Storage looks promising. > > It will be able to work with the LGC RESU10 HV battery and, sooner rather > than later I hope, BYD package as well. > > And it will allow for a backup generator tie in. > > Ta-dah! > > marco > > On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Bruce Erickson > > wrote: > > > Hi Marco, > > > > I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and Pika > > options for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for myself, and > > found OB to be so much more expensive. The customer really wanted a system > > that would be to be able to charge the batteries off a generator in an > > outage, understandably. But the extra thousands in cost for OB ended up > > being prohibitive. Add-on rapid shutdown is a killer. So he’s opting for a > > nice modern high voltage DC system, with optimizers and built-in RSD, but > > when there’s an extended outage, he’ll have to hope the sun comes out right > > after the storm to recharge the batteries, or he’ll end up in the dark > > again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a high voltage inverter > > that allows generator charging, or a third-party battery charger, that I’m > > not aware of. Otherwise high voltage systems are very limited for backup, > > at least in winter storm scenarios. > > > > *Bruce Erickson* > > Mendocino Solar Service > > PO Box 1252 > > Mendocino, CA 95460 > > 707-937-1701 > > 707-937-1741 fax > > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > > > *Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since* *1994* > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Sep 16 13:05:21 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 13:05:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: <691AB20F-7671-4C0B-BAC2-1628B4D179ED@gmail.com> References: <20180915143932.1D1C7103968@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <691AB20F-7671-4C0B-BAC2-1628B4D179ED@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:58 AM 9/15/2018, you wrote: >HI Drake, Can you upload that http again? The >link doesn’t work. thx jay > On Sep 15, 2018, >at 7:39 AM, Drake > >wrote: > > Is this what you are referring to? http://en.byd.com/energy/download/high-voltage/B-Box%20High%20Voltage%20Specification.pdf From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Sep 16 13:11:51 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 13:11:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reliable 48 to 24 V DC to DC reducer In-Reply-To: References: <20180915145837.DF64E103047@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: There are certainly many options I didn't know about. You guys are an incredible resource! On the LED drivers, do you bypass the transformer and rectifier and wire in directly to the DC leads inside the box? Thanks,. Drake At 11:31 AM 9/15/2018, you wrote: >I have had great luck using cheap LED >drivers. They say 110-240 vac input but they >rectify the input to DC. I have used them to >run 12 and 24 volt stuff off of 48 vdc and even >400 vdc. They operate down to about 35 volts dc. >They are available in a variety of output >voltage and current. And they are isolated. > And they only cost a few dollars. >https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F152134115704 >David Katz > >On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 7:58 AM Drake ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> >wrote: >Since Solar Converters seems to have evaporated, >I'm not sure where to look for a 48 to 24 V DC >to DC converter. Samplex has 24 to 12. It seems >like someone mentioned a Canadian company that makes these. > >I need to step down power from a 48 V battery >bank to power El Sid pumps for an offgrid hydronic heating system. > >Thanks, > >Drake > >Drake Chamberlin >Athens Electric LLC >OH License 44810 >CO License 3773 >NABCEP Certified Solar PV >740-448-7328 >http://athens-electric.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >-- >David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sun Sep 16 00:07:46 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 18:07:46 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> Sabaidee from Vientiane, Lao PDR. Attached is the spec sheet on the BYD battery in question. I’ve confirmed with SMA directly that there’s no capability for the Sunny Storage design (S.S., ABU and battery) to use a generator input. My apologies for mis-stating earlier that it could accommodate a generator. As far as grid-tie with batteries, the Holy Grail as far as I’m concerned is being able to provide whole house back-up and not have to do the old fashioned and pain in the arse critical load sub-panel. The more choices that we’re provided, the more better. So I’m pleased that companies like SMA, Ensync, SolarEdge and others are bringing new equipment and designs to market to allow for whole house back-up. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 5:00 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC HI Harry, The battery is charged from the AC side correct? And is the charging algorithm inside the ABU. If so why couldn’t you use a generator to charge the battery? jay peltz power On Sep 13, 2018, at 7:10 AM, Harry Mahon wrote: Marco – The Sunny Boy Storage “Advanced Backup Unit” accessory or ABU will be discussed at SPI in a couple weeks – first units are being stocked now at our warehouses in US. The ABU will allow the SBS to be a grid former in case of utility outage, however there are no plans to have any generator inputs/controls to allow for battery charging from generat And yes, BYD BBox HV 5.12/7.68/10.24 devices will be supported when available in US (will be this year I understand) Mike ----- The SMA Sunny Storage looks promising. It will be able to work with the LGC RESU10 HV battery and, sooner rather than later I hope, BYD package as well. And it will allow for a backup generator tie in. Ta-dah! marco On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Bruce Erickson < bruce at mendocinosolar.com> wrote: > Hi Marco, > > I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and Pika > options for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for myself, and > found OB to be so much more expensive. The customer really wanted a system > that would be to be able to charge the batteries off a generator in an > outage, understandably. But the extra thousands in cost for OB ended up > being prohibitive. Add-on rapid shutdown is a killer. So he’s opting for a > nice modern high voltage DC system, with optimizers and built-in RSD, but > when there’s an extended outage, he’ll have to hope the sun comes out right > after the storm to recharge the batteries, or he’ll end up in the dark > again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a high voltage inverter > that allows generator charging, or a third-party battery charger, that I’m > not aware of. Otherwise high voltage systems are very limited for backup, > at least in winter storm scenarios. > > *Bruce Erickson* > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > *Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since* *1994* > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: BYD B-BOX HV2018 US V1.1.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1918817 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 08:33:47 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 08:33:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reliable 48 to 24 V DC to DC reducer In-Reply-To: <20180915145839.6CD0B103994@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180915145839.6CD0B103994@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I went a more expensive route but never regretted it as I want a stable power supply for my SunFrost and 12V DC Pumps. I have an Iota AC to 12v DC charger/power supply which works with or without batteries. I have kept a 12V battery attached as it gives me 2nd level redundancy when my main bank hits low battery cutoff.... the DC equipment starts with a full battery. My 48V Outback is on all the time anyway and the small AC to DC loss is insignificant it my system and also when I monitor the outback system with Optics, I see all my loads, including the 12V DC Loads as one measurement. I have been using this system for about 10 years with no problems. Most of the time the Iota is just coasting but if I need surge capacity, it can handle 30 amps. Also I left my 12V system in tack so I have some DC lights and anything else I want to plug into 12v (ie, charging a car battery, 12V laptop power cord) it is available. My 2 L16 batteries on the system are vurtually dead right now, probably no water in them, but the surface charge works with the Iota and no negative affects. On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 10:58 AM Drake wrote: > Since Solar Converters seems to have evaporated, I'm not sure where to > look for a 48 to 24 V DC to DC converter. Samplex has 24 to 12. It seems > like someone mentioned a Canadian company that makes these. > > I need to step down power from a 48 V battery bank to power El Sid pumps > for an offgrid hydronic heating system. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Mon Sep 17 10:11:32 2018 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 14:11:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> Message-ID: Marco and all – yes that is the correct spec sheet for the BYD batteries that will work with Sunny Boy Storage. SMA strongly would recommend the Sunny Island for off-grid in general and certainly whole home backup. See the attached from Home Power April/May 2011; quad stack of SIs acting as UPS for the home – just charging batteries when grid is present, powering home with batteries/PV when grid is gone. A dual split phase cluster is almost 24,000 W continuous (!) capability and can handle crazy power factor loads with no issues. Built in generator functions and two relay positions per Sunny Island allow for lots of redundancy and fail-safe load shedding to be built in. The Sunny Boy Storage (SBS) is designed to be a grid-tied inverter to allow higher self consumption of local PV power. Even with the ABU to allow off grid operation (grid forming on its AC outputs rather than just on the dedicated 120VAC Secure Power Supply outlet), there can be a several second delay in the switch from grid power to microgrid as the ABU must signal the Sunny Boy Storage that it has disconnected from the grid and that it is safe for the SBS to form a grid on its output terminals. Also be aware that there is no master-slave configuration ability with the SBS – they will always assume they are acting independently on their energy meter input information. Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D43B9E.70803930] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 10:08 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC Sabaidee from Vientiane, Lao PDR. Attached is the spec sheet on the BYD battery in question. I’ve confirmed with SMA directly that there’s no capability for the Sunny Storage design (S.S., ABU and battery) to use a generator input. My apologies for mis-stating earlier that it could accommodate a generator. As far as grid-tie with batteries, the Holy Grail as far as I’m concerned is being able to provide whole house back-up and not have to do the old fashioned and pain in the arse critical load sub-panel. The more choices that we’re provided, the more better. So I’m pleased that companies like SMA, Ensync, SolarEdge and others are bringing new equipment and designs to market to allow for whole house back-up. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 5:00 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC HI Harry, The battery is charged from the AC side correct? And is the charging algorithm inside the ABU. If so why couldn’t you use a generator to charge the battery? jay peltz power On Sep 13, 2018, at 7:10 AM, Harry Mahon > wrote: Marco – The Sunny Boy Storage “Advanced Backup Unit” accessory or ABU will be discussed at SPI in a couple weeks – first units are being stocked now at our warehouses in US. The ABU will allow the SBS to be a grid former in case of utility outage, however there are no plans to have any generator inputs/controls to allow for battery charging from generat And yes, BYD BBox HV 5.12/7.68/10.24 devices will be supported when available in US (will be this year I understand) Mike ----- The SMA Sunny Storage looks promising. It will be able to work with the LGC RESU10 HV battery and, sooner rather than later I hope, BYD package as well. And it will allow for a backup generator tie in. Ta-dah! marco On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Bruce Erickson > wrote: > Hi Marco, > > I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and Pika > options for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for myself, and > found OB to be so much more expensive. The customer really wanted a system > that would be to be able to charge the batteries off a generator in an > outage, understandably. But the extra thousands in cost for OB ended up > being prohibitive. Add-on rapid shutdown is a killer. So he’s opting for a > nice modern high voltage DC system, with optimizers and built-in RSD, but > when there’s an extended outage, he’ll have to hope the sun comes out right > after the storm to recharge the batteries, or he’ll end up in the dark > again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a high voltage inverter > that allows generator charging, or a third-party battery charger, that I’m > not aware of. Otherwise high voltage systems are very limited for backup, > at least in winter storm scenarios. > > *Bruce Erickson* > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > *Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since* *1994* > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18895 bytes Desc: image007.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SIWHoleBackup.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 88311 bytes Desc: SIWHoleBackup.JPG URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Sep 17 10:16:45 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 10:16:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reliable 48 to 24 V DC to DC reducer In-Reply-To: References: <20180915145839.DA84F103AF7@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Ray, The pumps you recommend seem like very solid units. Have you had problems with the El Sid pumps? My concerns are that the TACO and Grundfos pumps I've found are over 80 W each, running on AC. If the El Sid are reliable, I'd prefer to stay with the low power usage and DC. Do either of these companies make any low wattage DC pumps? Thanks, Drake At 02:53 PM 9/15/2018, you wrote: >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="------------E0BC4714B0DAF20D8F5FC6FF" >Content-Language: en-US > >SCI was that Canadian company. Samlex does make a 48 v to 24 v >converter model IDC-100C-24. > >However, I would consider skipping the El cid pumps and going to the >new TACO or Grundfos ECM drive circulators. > >Ray Walters >Remote Solar >303 505-8760On 9/15/18 8:58 AM, Drake wrote: >>Since Solar Converters seems to have evaporated, I'm not sure where >>to look for a 48 to 24 V DC to DC converter. Samplex has 24 to 12. >>It seems like someone mentioned a Canadian company that makes these. >> >>I need to step down power from a 48 V battery bank to power El Sid >>pumps for an offgrid hydronic heating system. >> >>Thanks, >> >>Drake >> >>Drake Chamberlin >>Athens Electric LLC >>OH License 44810 >>CO License 3773 >>NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>740-448-7328 >>http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Mon Sep 17 12:42:01 2018 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 09:42:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question Message-ID: Wrenches, We have a PV array situated about 900' from the POI (240V 1PH). We initially spec'd (5) 11.4kW inverters and the combined output would be 238A. The wire size required for this current over that distance is cost prohibitive. A solution was to use a single 50kW 3 phase inverter at the array and then convert it to 240V... somehow? Is anyone familiar with how to go about doing this? My thought was to have a step down transformer at the POI and pull off two legs to get 240V. Is this even a thing? The other, more expensive option is to use a step up transformer at the array and a step down at the POI to get us a smaller wire size. Thanks for any input. -- *Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer* loren at cal-solar.com * (530) 274-3671* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Sep 17 10:56:19 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 08:56:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Reliable 48 to 24 V DC to DC reducer In-Reply-To: <20180917141657.AAD22105A82@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20180915145839.DA84F103AF7@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <20180917141657.AAD22105A82@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <7a3bcfe2-d5ac-19fa-37d2-ba0b40906c75@solarray.com> As many other folks have noted, the El Cid pumps are very low flow rate, so it can be very hard to get air out of the system. These air pockets can build up and keep the fluid from flowing at all in some loops.  No flow, no heat.  Besides being half the power draw , the ECM pumps are variable speed so their power draw can be reduced even further.  At initial start up they can be run at full power (roughly 40 watts) and then once the air is purged from the system, they can be throttled back to even lower power draw.  I have not heard of either company doing anything DC.  I've found that when involving the other trades (plumbers, house electricians, well service, etc) that the closer it is to being how they normally do it, the better.  Using these ECM drive pumps for instance, is just a matter of specing the pump.  It plumbs and wires in just like a regular model. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/17/18 8:16 AM, Drake wrote: > Ray, > > The pumps you recommend seem like very solid units. Have you had > problems with the El Sid pumps? > > My concerns are that the TACO and Grundfos pumps I've found are over > 80 W each, running on AC. If the El Sid are reliable, I'd prefer to > stay with the low power usage and DC. Do either of these companies > make any low wattage DC pumps? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > At 02:53 PM 9/15/2018, you wrote: >> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >>  boundary="------------E0BC4714B0DAF20D8F5FC6FF" >> Content-Language: en-US >> >> SCI was that Canadian company.  Samlex does make a 48 v to 24 v >> converter model IDC-100C-24. >> >> However, I would consider skipping the El cid pumps and going to the >> new TACO or Grundfos ECM drive circulators. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 9/15/18 8:58 AM, Drake wrote: >>> Since Solar Converters seems to have evaporated, I'm not sure where >>> to look for a 48 to 24 V DC to DC converter. Samplex has 24 to 12. >>> It seems like someone mentioned a Canadian company that makes these. >>> >>> I need to step down power from a 48 V battery bank to power El Sid >>> pumps for an offgrid hydronic  heating system. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> Drake Chamberlin >>> /Athens Electric LLC >>> OH License 44810 >>> CO License 3773 >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>> 740-448-7328 >>> /http://athens-electric.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Sep 17 13:49:57 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 13:49:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <52b5b857611aaa479f697f4d20e538a06c2775cf@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Another option would be to locate the inverters near the grid and run the DC at as high a voltage as possible. Have a separate run of wire for each of the 5 inverters. If you ran the DC at 500 V, an 11.4 kW inverter would only draw 22.8. A. Use 2/0 AL for a little over 1% VD at full power. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 09:42:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question Wrenches, We have a PV array situated about 900' from the POI (240V 1PH). We initially spec'd (5) 11.4kW inverters and the combined output would be 238A. The wire size required for this current over that distance is cost prohibitive. A solution was to use a single 50kW 3 phase inverter at the array and then convert it to 240V... somehow? Is anyone familiar with how to go about doing this? My thought was to have a step down transformer at the POI and pull off two legs to get 240V. Is this even a thing? The other, more expensive option is to use a step up transformer at the array and a step down at the POI to get us a smaller wire size. Thanks for any input. -- Loren Ortiz   Commercial PV Designer     loren at cal-solar.com [1]  (530) 274-3671   [2] SHOWROOM LOCATED AT: 149 E MAIN ST. GRASS VALLEY, CA 95945 Links: ------ [1] mailto:lorenzo at cal-solar.com [2] http://californiasolarco.com/referral-program/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dyoung at dovetailsolar.com Mon Sep 17 17:19:55 2018 From: dyoung at dovetailsolar.com (Daniel Young) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 17:19:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question In-Reply-To: <52b5b857611aaa479f697f4d20e538a06c2775cf@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <52b5b857611aaa479f697f4d20e538a06c2775cf@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <010301d44ecc$2e9bbbc0$8bd33340$@dovetailsolar.com> Also using Drakes solution, you bypass the issue with the inverter “voltage drop” causing it to go out of spec in high production times (a 5% voltage drop would really mean that the inverter would see the grid as being 5% higher than it really is when producing at full power, potentially causing a high grid voltage fault). You can then allow for more than 1% voltage drop over that distance without risking the system shutting down. You change an operational requirement constraint into a pure power production vs cost of wire issue. It might be that going with smaller wire is less expensive that the extra energy you would generate from that 1% better voltage drop. Also you said 11.4kW inverter with 240V 1ph, which makes me think SolarEdge. If that’s true then your situation just got a even better. I believe they will communicate to optimizers up to 1000’ (I don’t like operating at the edge of a systems spec, but might be the best option here). But they operate at the same, higher voltage under power producing conditions. That only helps your power loss issues. You can run the numbers, but you usually lose about 1/2ish total annual energy compared to the calculated %voltage drop on the DC lines. So if you have the wire run designed for 5% drop at peak power, you’d really only lose roughly 2-3% total energy per year. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 1:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question Another option would be to locate the inverters near the grid and run the DC at as high a voltage as possible. Have a separate run of wire for each of the 5 inverters. If you ran the DC at 500 V, an 11.4 kW inverter would only draw 22.8. A. Use 2/0 AL for a little over 1% VD at full power. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" > To: "RE-wrenches" > Cc: Sent: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 09:42:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question Wrenches, We have a PV array situated about 900' from the POI (240V 1PH). We initially spec'd (5) 11.4kW inverters and the combined output would be 238A. The wire size required for this current over that distance is cost prohibitive. A solution was to use a single 50kW 3 phase inverter at the array and then convert it to 240V... somehow? Is anyone familiar with how to go about doing this? My thought was to have a step down transformer at the POI and pull off two legs to get 240V. Is this even a thing? The other, more expensive option is to use a step up transformer at the array and a step down at the POI to get us a smaller wire size. Thanks for any input. -- Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer loren at cal-solar.com (530) 274-3671 Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Sep 18 00:20:08 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 18:20:08 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> Message-ID: Mahalo Mike. Can you tell us please when the SS will actually be able to integrate the BYD battery platform in the north American market? marco On Monday, September 17, 2018, Harry Mahon wrote: > Marco and all – yes that is the correct spec sheet for the BYD batteries > that will work with Sunny Boy Storage. > > > > SMA strongly would recommend the Sunny Island for off-grid in general and > certainly whole home backup. See the attached from Home Power April/May > 2011; quad stack of SIs acting as UPS for the home – just charging > batteries when grid is present, powering home with batteries/PV when grid > is gone. A dual split phase cluster is almost 24,000 W continuous (!) > capability and can handle crazy power factor loads with no issues. Built > in generator functions and two relay positions per Sunny Island allow for > lots of redundancy and fail-safe load shedding to be built in. > > > > The Sunny Boy Storage (SBS) is designed to be a grid-tied inverter to > allow higher self consumption of local PV power. Even with the ABU to > allow off grid operation (grid forming on its AC outputs rather than just > on the dedicated 120VAC Secure Power Supply outlet), there can be a several > second delay in the switch from grid power to microgrid as the ABU must > signal the Sunny Boy Storage that it has disconnected from the grid and > that it is safe for the SBS to form a grid on its output terminals. Also > be aware that there is no master-slave configuration ability with the SBS – > they will always assume they are acting independently on their energy meter > input information. > > > > Best regards – > > Mike > > > > SMA America > Michael Mahon > Technical Trainer, Solar Academy > 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 > > Rocklin, CA 95765 > > U.S.A. > Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 > * www.SMA-America.com * > > > > Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview. > html > > > > Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/ > partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html > > > > > > [image: > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg] > [image: > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] > [image: > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] > [image: Linkedin Logo] > [image: > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] > [image: > SMAAFORUM_ICON] > > [image: cid:image008.jpg at 01D43B9E.70803930] > > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or > any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any > attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf > *Sent:* Saturday, September 15, 2018 10:08 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC > > > > Sabaidee from Vientiane, Lao PDR. > > > > Attached is the spec sheet on the BYD battery in question. > > > > I’ve confirmed with SMA directly that there’s no capability for the Sunny > Storage design (S.S., ABU and battery) to use a generator input. My > apologies for mis-stating earlier that it could accommodate a generator. > > > > As far as grid-tie with batteries, the Holy Grail as far as I’m concerned > is being able to provide whole house back-up and not have to do the old > fashioned and pain in the arse critical load sub-panel. The more choices > that we’re provided, the more better. So I’m pleased that companies like > SMA, Ensync, SolarEdge and others are bringing new equipment and designs to > market to allow for whole house back-up. > > > > marco > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *jay > *Sent:* Saturday, September 15, 2018 5:00 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC > > > > HI Harry, > > > > The battery is charged from the AC side correct? > > And is the charging algorithm inside the ABU. > > > > If so why couldn’t you use a generator to charge the battery? > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > > > > > > > On Sep 13, 2018, at 7:10 AM, Harry Mahon > wrote: > > > > Marco – > > > > The Sunny Boy Storage “Advanced Backup Unit” accessory or ABU will be > discussed at SPI in a couple weeks – first units are being stocked now at > our warehouses in US. The ABU will allow the SBS to be a grid former in > case of utility outage, however there are no plans to have any generator > inputs/controls to allow for battery charging from generat > > And yes, BYD BBox HV 5.12/7.68/10.24 devices will be supported when > available in US (will be this year I understand) > > > > Mike > > > > ----- > > > > The SMA Sunny Storage looks promising. > > > > It will be able to work with the LGC RESU10 HV battery and, sooner rather > > than later I hope, BYD package as well. > > > > And it will allow for a backup generator tie in. > > > > Ta-dah! > > > > marco > > > > On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Bruce Erickson > > > wrote: > > > > >* Hi Marco,* > > > > > >* I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and Pika* > > >* options for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for myself, and* > > >* found OB to be so much more expensive. The customer really wanted a system* > > >* that would be to be able to charge the batteries off a generator in an* > > >* outage, understandably. But the extra thousands in cost for OB ended up* > > >* being prohibitive. Add-on rapid shutdown is a killer. So he’s opting for a* > > >* nice modern high voltage DC system, with optimizers and built-in RSD, but* > > >* when there’s an extended outage, he’ll have to hope the sun comes out right* > > >* after the storm to recharge the batteries, or he’ll end up in the dark* > > >* again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a high voltage inverter* > > >* that allows generator charging, or a third-party battery charger, that I’m* > > >* not aware of. Otherwise high voltage systems are very limited for backup,* > > >* at least in winter storm scenarios.* > > > > > >* *Bruce Erickson** > > >* Mendocino Solar Service* > > >* PO Box 1252* > > >* Mendocino, CA 95460* > > >* 707-937-1701* > > >* 707-937-1741 fax* > > >* bruce at mendocinosolar.com * > > > > > >* *Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since* *1994** > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists. > re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 480 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 12:33:51 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:33:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The single phase - 3phase change is too difficult and expensive. Stay with single phase. I have done this successfully with a step up and down transformer. You, of course, need to select the correct transformer. Transformers seem to have a price advantage using standard voltages. For example, starting at building 240 to 480 and then use 480-volt inverters. This will require longer strings for the 480-volt single phase inverter. another way is to use 240 to 240-480-volt and carry a neutral. then select inverters that can operate with no neutral, I call them floating output. This cuts current in half, voltage drop or rise by 1/4 allowing smaller wire. On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 11:42 AM Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: > Wrenches, > > We have a PV array situated about 900' from the POI (240V 1PH). We > initially spec'd (5) 11.4kW inverters and the combined output would be > 238A. The wire size required for this current over that distance is cost > prohibitive. > > A solution was to use a single 50kW 3 phase inverter at the array and then > convert it to 240V... somehow? Is anyone familiar with how to go about > doing this? My thought was to have a step down transformer at the POI and > pull off two legs to get 240V. Is this even a thing? > > The other, more expensive option is to use a step up transformer at the > array and a step down at the POI to get us a smaller wire size. > > Thanks for any input. > > > -- > *Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer* > > loren at cal-solar.com * (530) 274-3671* > > > > > *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 12:37:38 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:37:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question In-Reply-To: <52b5b857611aaa479f697f4d20e538a06c2775cf@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <52b5b857611aaa479f697f4d20e538a06c2775cf@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: DRakes suggestion has the advantage of the DC side is not a voltage sensitive as the AC side and voltage drop is not as critical. allowing perhaps a 3% On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 12:50 PM wrote: > Another option would be to locate the inverters near the grid and run the > DC at as high a voltage as possible. Have a separate run of wire for each > of the 5 inverters. If you ran the DC at 500 V, an 11.4 kW inverter would > only draw 22.8. A. Use 2/0 AL for a little over 1% VD at full power. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > "RE-wrenches" > > To: > "RE-wrenches" > Cc: > > Sent: > Mon, 17 Sep 2018 09:42:01 -0700 > Subject: > [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question > > > Wrenches, > > We have a PV array situated about 900' from the POI (240V 1PH). We > initially spec'd (5) 11.4kW inverters and the combined output would be > 238A. The wire size required for this current over that distance is cost > prohibitive. > > A solution was to use a single 50kW 3 phase inverter at the array and then > convert it to 240V... somehow? Is anyone familiar with how to go about > doing this? My thought was to have a step down transformer at the POI and > pull off two legs to get 240V. Is this even a thing? > > The other, more expensive option is to use a step up transformer at the > array and a step down at the POI to get us a smaller wire size. > > Thanks for any input. > > > -- > Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer > > loren at cal-solar.com * (530) 274-3671* > > > > > *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Sep 18 12:43:54 2018 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 16:43:54 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6308f035282642f1a8b551ffd9cfacbe@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Curious some years ago I was asked to audit a system with a similar design. The question I was asked to answer is why the net kWh exported to the grid was much less than they hoped. The punchine was the idle load on the dry transformers were soaking up about 20% of the PV array's net production. So from that lesson, I have made it a practice to avoid transformers if at all possible. In fact, a mini-grid retrofit we are doing now involves removal of numerous transformers and to consolidate with 120/208V for all but the deep well pumps and effluent plant we will keep at 600V. What I concluded from this is better to run higher voltage DC lines for the long runs. Haven't had that situation come up again to test. Have others looked into transformer losses? Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer Sent: September-18-18 9:34 AM To: newrewrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question The single phase - 3phase change is too difficult and expensive. Stay with single phase. I have done this successfully with a step up and down transformer. You, of course, need to select the correct transformer. Transformers seem to have a price advantage using standard voltages. For example, starting at building 240 to 480 and then use 480-volt inverters. This will require longer strings for the 480-volt single phase inverter. another way is to use 240 to 240-480-volt and carry a neutral. then select inverters that can operate with no neutral, I call them floating output. This cuts current in half, voltage drop or rise by 1/4 allowing smaller wire. On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 11:42 AM Lorenzo Ortiz > wrote: Wrenches, We have a PV array situated about 900' from the POI (240V 1PH). We initially spec'd (5) 11.4kW inverters and the combined output would be 238A. The wire size required for this current over that distance is cost prohibitive. A solution was to use a single 50kW 3 phase inverter at the array and then convert it to 240V... somehow? Is anyone familiar with how to go about doing this? My thought was to have a step down transformer at the POI and pull off two legs to get 240V. Is this even a thing? The other, more expensive option is to use a step up transformer at the array and a step down at the POI to get us a smaller wire size. Thanks for any input. -- Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer loren at cal-solar.com (530) 274-3671 [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B6l5VcsZgAv3TXRfSkhpZUNaczQ&revid=0B6l5VcsZgAv3djFpMk9EQUdEdmg1K0hFdHBNZVlTZ3RZdW5VPQ] [http://californiasolarco.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/CalSolarADVOCATE.png] Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 12:57:17 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 09:57:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lorenzo You might want to look at relocating the inverter(s) closer to the meter instead of the array, one reason is even if there is some line loss at full power its less as the voltage goes up and the inverter does not see the line resistance that can cause high voltage issues at the inverter. Some engineers use more side of peak performance than full power, this keeps wite size down and does not effect output Jerry On Sep 17, 2018 9:42 AM, "Lorenzo Ortiz" wrote: Wrenches, We have a PV array situated about 900' from the POI (240V 1PH). We initially spec'd (5) 11.4kW inverters and the combined output would be 238A. The wire size required for this current over that distance is cost prohibitive. A solution was to use a single 50kW 3 phase inverter at the array and then convert it to 240V... somehow? Is anyone familiar with how to go about doing this? My thought was to have a step down transformer at the POI and pull off two legs to get 240V. Is this even a thing? The other, more expensive option is to use a step up transformer at the array and a step down at the POI to get us a smaller wire size. Thanks for any input. -- *Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer* loren at cal-solar.com * (530) 274-3671* *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Tue Sep 18 13:15:02 2018 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:15:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good advice already on this thread. A couple of points to consider: 1. Re: step-up/step-down option (probably what I'd do): definitely pay attention to transformer spec to minimize both magnetization and operating losses. Newer DOE 2016-compliant transformers are MUCH better than before, and that's just the minimum standard. If you really want to minimize magnetization losses, you can always design a relay/timer to disconnect the transformers at night (from the interconnection side), although I've found that this setup is either very expensive or too unreliable (nuisance tripping upon re-connect, timer gets "off" cycle somehow, etc). 2. I think someone mentioned a 480V single-phase inverter. I'm not aware of a high-quality product meeting that description. Is there one? All of the "480V" single-phase inverters I'm aware of are 277V (line to neutral), which is hardly worth the transformer effort (versus 240V). 3. Definitely use aluminum wire for the long run. If wire size is still too large, even with step up/down tranformers, consider allowing slightly increased voltage drop at full power (say, 5%), and, depending on typical grid voltage at the site, change taps on one of the transformers to err on the low side (from inverters' point-of-view), to keep the inverters from tripping at upper voltage limit at full power (max voltage drop/rise). Blake On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Lorenzo > You might want to look at relocating the inverter(s) closer to the meter > instead of the array, one reason is even if there is some line loss at full > power its less as the voltage goes up and the inverter does not see the > line resistance that can cause high voltage issues at the inverter. Some > engineers use more side of peak performance than full power, this keeps > wite size down and does not effect output > Jerry > > On Sep 17, 2018 9:42 AM, "Lorenzo Ortiz" wrote: > > Wrenches, > > We have a PV array situated about 900' from the POI (240V 1PH). We > initially spec'd (5) 11.4kW inverters and the combined output would be > 238A. The wire size required for this current over that distance is cost > prohibitive. > > A solution was to use a single 50kW 3 phase inverter at the array and then > convert it to 240V... somehow? Is anyone familiar with how to go about > doing this? My thought was to have a step down transformer at the POI and > pull off two legs to get 240V. Is this even a thing? > > The other, more expensive option is to use a step up transformer at the > array and a step down at the POI to get us a smaller wire size. > > Thanks for any input. > > > -- > *Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer* > > loren at cal-solar.com * (530) 274-3671* > > > > > *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- * Blake Gleason* - PE, LEED AP *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* *P:* 510.845.2997 x128 *E:* blake at sunlightandpower.com *W:* sunlightandpower.com See how universities are using business as a force for good with solar! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Tue Sep 18 12:11:33 2018 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 16:11:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> Message-ID: Marco – I will need to ask for information about the BYD availability. Once those units have all required listings/certifications and are available in US, they should be ready to use with SBS. The CANBUS comms to the BMS has already been vetted, and they are on the SMA Approved battery list already. But I will get confirmation on the immediate usability. Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D43B9E.70803930] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 10:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC Mahalo Mike. Can you tell us please when the SS will actually be able to integrate the BYD battery platform in the north American market? marco On Monday, September 17, 2018, Harry Mahon > wrote: Marco and all – yes that is the correct spec sheet for the BYD batteries that will work with Sunny Boy Storage. SMA strongly would recommend the Sunny Island for off-grid in general and certainly whole home backup. See the attached from Home Power April/May 2011; quad stack of SIs acting as UPS for the home – just charging batteries when grid is present, powering home with batteries/PV when grid is gone. A dual split phase cluster is almost 24,000 W continuous (!) capability and can handle crazy power factor loads with no issues. Built in generator functions and two relay positions per Sunny Island allow for lots of redundancy and fail-safe load shedding to be built in. The Sunny Boy Storage (SBS) is designed to be a grid-tied inverter to allow higher self consumption of local PV power. Even with the ABU to allow off grid operation (grid forming on its AC outputs rather than just on the dedicated 120VAC Secure Power Supply outlet), there can be a several second delay in the switch from grid power to microgrid as the ABU must signal the Sunny Boy Storage that it has disconnected from the grid and that it is safe for the SBS to form a grid on its output terminals. Also be aware that there is no master-slave configuration ability with the SBS – they will always assume they are acting independently on their energy meter input information. Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg][http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D43B9E.70803930] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 10:08 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC Sabaidee from Vientiane, Lao PDR. Attached is the spec sheet on the BYD battery in question. I’ve confirmed with SMA directly that there’s no capability for the Sunny Storage design (S.S., ABU and battery) to use a generator input. My apologies for mis-stating earlier that it could accommodate a generator. As far as grid-tie with batteries, the Holy Grail as far as I’m concerned is being able to provide whole house back-up and not have to do the old fashioned and pain in the arse critical load sub-panel. The more choices that we’re provided, the more better. So I’m pleased that companies like SMA, Ensync, SolarEdge and others are bringing new equipment and designs to market to allow for whole house back-up. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 5:00 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC HI Harry, The battery is charged from the AC side correct? And is the charging algorithm inside the ABU. If so why couldn’t you use a generator to charge the battery? jay peltz power On Sep 13, 2018, at 7:10 AM, Harry Mahon > wrote: Marco – The Sunny Boy Storage “Advanced Backup Unit” accessory or ABU will be discussed at SPI in a couple weeks – first units are being stocked now at our warehouses in US. The ABU will allow the SBS to be a grid former in case of utility outage, however there are no plans to have any generator inputs/controls to allow for battery charging from generat And yes, BYD BBox HV 5.12/7.68/10.24 devices will be supported when available in US (will be this year I understand) Mike ----- The SMA Sunny Storage looks promising. It will be able to work with the LGC RESU10 HV battery and, sooner rather than later I hope, BYD package as well. And it will allow for a backup generator tie in. Ta-dah! marco On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Bruce Erickson > wrote: > Hi Marco, > > I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and Pika > options for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for myself, and > found OB to be so much more expensive. The customer really wanted a system > that would be to be able to charge the batteries off a generator in an > outage, understandably. But the extra thousands in cost for OB ended up > being prohibitive. Add-on rapid shutdown is a killer. So he’s opting for a > nice modern high voltage DC system, with optimizers and built-in RSD, but > when there’s an extended outage, he’ll have to hope the sun comes out right > after the storm to recharge the batteries, or he’ll end up in the dark > again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a high voltage inverter > that allows generator charging, or a third-party battery charger, that I’m > not aware of. Otherwise high voltage systems are very limited for backup, > at least in winter storm scenarios. > > *Bruce Erickson* > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > *Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since* *1994* > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18895 bytes Desc: image007.jpg URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Sep 18 12:05:52 2018 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:05:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar stock tank aerator Message-ID: <018e01d44f69$799d2850$6cd778f0$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: Four years ago we designed a nifty little stock watering system; part of it was a solar stock tank bubbler. It was battery based, and ran off of a 20W solar module. It's kept the stock tank ice-free (this is over in the Big Hole Basin where it's icy about 10 months out of the year) and it worked beautifully until the cows somehow got in and broke it down. The component was made by the Pennington Equipment Company (which apparently is no more) and I cannot find an efficient DC bubbler or aerator anywhere. Do y'all have any ideas? The Keeton Aquatics stuff is overkill and pricey; that unit, pictured, was around $800 in cost, including the battery. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_1253.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 577603 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_1251.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 695656 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Tue Sep 18 14:36:22 2018 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:36:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for all the input guys. After looking at the 3 phase with transformer options with some transformer manufacturers, that has been pretty much ruled out due to complexity/cost. With single phase step-up and step-down transformers, even at 600VAC, it still requires some monster wire. The best solution seems to be placing the inverters next to the POI and just running long strings from the array back to the inverters and accepting up to 4%-5% voltage drop. And that's with #8 instead of the usual #10 AND accounting for worst-case production. Man, sometimes this solar stuff is just crazy... On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Blake Gleason wrote: > Good advice already on this thread. A couple of points to consider: > > 1. Re: step-up/step-down option (probably what I'd do): definitely pay > attention to transformer spec to minimize both magnetization and operating > losses. Newer DOE 2016-compliant transformers are MUCH better than before, > and that's just the minimum standard. If you really want to minimize > magnetization losses, you can always design a relay/timer to disconnect the > transformers at night (from the interconnection side), although I've found > that this setup is either very expensive or too unreliable (nuisance > tripping upon re-connect, timer gets "off" cycle somehow, etc). > > 2. I think someone mentioned a 480V single-phase inverter. I'm not aware > of a high-quality product meeting that description. Is there one? All of > the "480V" single-phase inverters I'm aware of are 277V (line to neutral), > which is hardly worth the transformer effort (versus 240V). > > 3. Definitely use aluminum wire for the long run. If wire size is still > too large, even with step up/down tranformers, consider allowing slightly > increased voltage drop at full power (say, 5%), and, depending on typical > grid voltage at the site, change taps on one of the transformers to err on > the low side (from inverters' point-of-view), to keep the inverters from > tripping at upper voltage limit at full power (max voltage drop/rise). > > > Blake > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Lorenzo >> You might want to look at relocating the inverter(s) closer to the meter >> instead of the array, one reason is even if there is some line loss at full >> power its less as the voltage goes up and the inverter does not see the >> line resistance that can cause high voltage issues at the inverter. Some >> engineers use more side of peak performance than full power, this keeps >> wite size down and does not effect output >> Jerry >> >> On Sep 17, 2018 9:42 AM, "Lorenzo Ortiz" wrote: >> >> Wrenches, >> >> We have a PV array situated about 900' from the POI (240V 1PH). We >> initially spec'd (5) 11.4kW inverters and the combined output would be >> 238A. The wire size required for this current over that distance is cost >> prohibitive. >> >> A solution was to use a single 50kW 3 phase inverter at the array and >> then convert it to 240V... somehow? Is anyone familiar with how to go about >> doing this? My thought was to have a step down transformer at the POI and >> pull off two legs to get 240V. Is this even a thing? >> >> The other, more expensive option is to use a step up transformer at the >> array and a step down at the POI to get us a smaller wire size. >> >> Thanks for any input. >> >> >> -- >> *Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer* >> >> loren at cal-solar.com * (530) 274-3671* >> >> >> >> >> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re >> -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Blake Gleason* - PE, LEED AP > *Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence* > > *P:* 510.845.2997 x128 > *E:* blake at sunlightandpower.com > *W:* sunlightandpower.com > > See how universities are using business as a force for good with solar! > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer* loren at cal-solar.com * (530) 274-3671* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 14:45:12 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:45:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does anyone make a 1000vdc single phase inverter? Would reduce wire costs dramatically Jay Peltz power. > On Sep 18, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: > > Thanks for all the input guys. After looking at the 3 phase with transformer options with some transformer manufacturers, that has been pretty much ruled out due to complexity/cost. > With single phase step-up and step-down transformers, even at 600VAC, it still requires some monster wire. > The best solution seems to be placing the inverters next to the POI and just running long strings from the array back to the inverters and accepting up to 4%-5% voltage drop. And that's with #8 instead of the usual #10 AND accounting for worst-case production. > > Man, sometimes this solar stuff is just crazy... > >> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Blake Gleason wrote: >> Good advice already on this thread. A couple of points to consider: >> >> 1. Re: step-up/step-down option (probably what I'd do): definitely pay attention to transformer spec to minimize both magnetization and operating losses. Newer DOE 2016-compliant transformers are MUCH better than before, and that's just the minimum standard. If you really want to minimize magnetization losses, you can always design a relay/timer to disconnect the transformers at night (from the interconnection side), although I've found that this setup is either very expensive or too unreliable (nuisance tripping upon re-connect, timer gets "off" cycle somehow, etc). >> >> 2. I think someone mentioned a 480V single-phase inverter. I'm not aware of a high-quality product meeting that description. Is there one? All of the "480V" single-phase inverters I'm aware of are 277V (line to neutral), which is hardly worth the transformer effort (versus 240V). >> >> 3. Definitely use aluminum wire for the long run. If wire size is still too large, even with step up/down tranformers, consider allowing slightly increased voltage drop at full power (say, 5%), and, depending on typical grid voltage at the site, change taps on one of the transformers to err on the low side (from inverters' point-of-view), to keep the inverters from tripping at upper voltage limit at full power (max voltage drop/rise). >> >> >> Blake >> >>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> Lorenzo >>> You might want to look at relocating the inverter(s) closer to the meter instead of the array, one reason is even if there is some line loss at full power its less as the voltage goes up and the inverter does not see the line resistance that can cause high voltage issues at the inverter. Some engineers use more side of peak performance than full power, this keeps wite size down and does not effect output >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Sep 17, 2018 9:42 AM, "Lorenzo Ortiz" wrote: >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> We have a PV array situated about 900' from the POI (240V 1PH). We initially spec'd (5) 11.4kW inverters and the combined output would be 238A. The wire size required for this current over that distance is cost prohibitive. >>> >>> A solution was to use a single 50kW 3 phase inverter at the array and then convert it to 240V... somehow? Is anyone familiar with how to go about doing this? My thought was to have a step down transformer at the POI and pull off two legs to get 240V. Is this even a thing? >>> >>> The other, more expensive option is to use a step up transformer at the array and a step down at the POI to get us a smaller wire size. >>> >>> Thanks for any input. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer >>> >>> loren at cal-solar.com (530) 274-3671 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Blake Gleason - PE, LEED AP >> Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence >> >> P: 510.845.2997 x128 >> E: blake at sunlightandpower.com >> W: sunlightandpower.com >> >> See how universities are using business as a force for good with solar! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > > -- > Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer > > loren at cal-solar.com (530) 274-3671 > > > > > Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Tue Sep 18 21:34:14 2018 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 21:34:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63346D81-03ED-4049-B272-DEA76B0C23A8@solarenergy.org> Currently up in the air as to whether 2020 will allow that on 1- and 2- family houses. If so then yes...currently don’t know of any. Brian > On Sep 18, 2018, at 2:45 PM, Jay wrote: > > Does anyone make a 1000vdc single phase inverter? > Would reduce wire costs dramatically > > Jay > Peltz power. > >> On Sep 18, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: >> >> Thanks for all the input guys. After looking at the 3 phase with transformer options with some transformer manufacturers, that has been pretty much ruled out due to complexity/cost. >> With single phase step-up and step-down transformers, even at 600VAC, it still requires some monster wire. >> The best solution seems to be placing the inverters next to the POI and just running long strings from the array back to the inverters and accepting up to 4%-5% voltage drop. And that's with #8 instead of the usual #10 AND accounting for worst-case production. >> >> Man, sometimes this solar stuff is just crazy... >> >>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Blake Gleason wrote: >>> Good advice already on this thread. A couple of points to consider: >>> >>> 1. Re: step-up/step-down option (probably what I'd do): definitely pay attention to transformer spec to minimize both magnetization and operating losses. Newer DOE 2016-compliant transformers are MUCH better than before, and that's just the minimum standard. If you really want to minimize magnetization losses, you can always design a relay/timer to disconnect the transformers at night (from the interconnection side), although I've found that this setup is either very expensive or too unreliable (nuisance tripping upon re-connect, timer gets "off" cycle somehow, etc). >>> >>> 2. I think someone mentioned a 480V single-phase inverter. I'm not aware of a high-quality product meeting that description. Is there one? All of the "480V" single-phase inverters I'm aware of are 277V (line to neutral), which is hardly worth the transformer effort (versus 240V). >>> >>> 3. Definitely use aluminum wire for the long run. If wire size is still too large, even with step up/down tranformers, consider allowing slightly increased voltage drop at full power (say, 5%), and, depending on typical grid voltage at the site, change taps on one of the transformers to err on the low side (from inverters' point-of-view), to keep the inverters from tripping at upper voltage limit at full power (max voltage drop/rise). >>> >>> >>> Blake >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>>> Lorenzo >>>> You might want to look at relocating the inverter(s) closer to the meter instead of the array, one reason is even if there is some line loss at full power its less as the voltage goes up and the inverter does not see the line resistance that can cause high voltage issues at the inverter. Some engineers use more side of peak performance than full power, this keeps wite size down and does not effect output >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> On Sep 17, 2018 9:42 AM, "Lorenzo Ortiz" wrote: >>>> Wrenches, >>>> >>>> We have a PV array situated about 900' from the POI (240V 1PH). We initially spec'd (5) 11.4kW inverters and the combined output would be 238A. The wire size required for this current over that distance is cost prohibitive. >>>> >>>> A solution was to use a single 50kW 3 phase inverter at the array and then convert it to 240V... somehow? Is anyone familiar with how to go about doing this? My thought was to have a step down transformer at the POI and pull off two legs to get 240V. Is this even a thing? >>>> >>>> The other, more expensive option is to use a step up transformer at the array and a step down at the POI to get us a smaller wire size. >>>> >>>> Thanks for any input. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer >>>> >>>> loren at cal-solar.com (530) 274-3671 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Blake Gleason - PE, LEED AP >>> Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence >>> >>> P: 510.845.2997 x128 >>> E: blake at sunlightandpower.com >>> W: sunlightandpower.com >>> >>> See how universities are using business as a force for good with solar! >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer >> >> loren at cal-solar.com (530) 274-3671 >> >> >> >> >> Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 22:00:34 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 19:00:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question In-Reply-To: <63346D81-03ED-4049-B272-DEA76B0C23A8@solarenergy.org> References: <63346D81-03ED-4049-B272-DEA76B0C23A8@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: <9A3076AB-AA07-4953-A2F7-651E4824A1D9@gmail.com> Thx Brian. I guess I was thinking that 50kw + was probably A darn big house and probably be outbuildings that the inverters would be installed on. Yea bringing 1000vdc to a house is a bit much but then we said that with 600v too. Jay Peltz power > On Sep 18, 2018, at 6:34 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > > Currently up in the air as to whether 2020 will allow that on 1- and 2- family houses. If so then yes...currently don’t know of any. > > Brian > >> On Sep 18, 2018, at 2:45 PM, Jay wrote: >> >> Does anyone make a 1000vdc single phase inverter? >> Would reduce wire costs dramatically >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >>> On Sep 18, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for all the input guys. After looking at the 3 phase with transformer options with some transformer manufacturers, that has been pretty much ruled out due to complexity/cost. >>> With single phase step-up and step-down transformers, even at 600VAC, it still requires some monster wire. >>> The best solution seems to be placing the inverters next to the POI and just running long strings from the array back to the inverters and accepting up to 4%-5% voltage drop. And that's with #8 instead of the usual #10 AND accounting for worst-case production. >>> >>> Man, sometimes this solar stuff is just crazy... >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Blake Gleason wrote: >>>> Good advice already on this thread. A couple of points to consider: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: step-up/step-down option (probably what I'd do): definitely pay attention to transformer spec to minimize both magnetization and operating losses. Newer DOE 2016-compliant transformers are MUCH better than before, and that's just the minimum standard. If you really want to minimize magnetization losses, you can always design a relay/timer to disconnect the transformers at night (from the interconnection side), although I've found that this setup is either very expensive or too unreliable (nuisance tripping upon re-connect, timer gets "off" cycle somehow, etc). >>>> >>>> 2. I think someone mentioned a 480V single-phase inverter. I'm not aware of a high-quality product meeting that description. Is there one? All of the "480V" single-phase inverters I'm aware of are 277V (line to neutral), which is hardly worth the transformer effort (versus 240V). >>>> >>>> 3. Definitely use aluminum wire for the long run. If wire size is still too large, even with step up/down tranformers, consider allowing slightly increased voltage drop at full power (say, 5%), and, depending on typical grid voltage at the site, change taps on one of the transformers to err on the low side (from inverters' point-of-view), to keep the inverters from tripping at upper voltage limit at full power (max voltage drop/rise). >>>> >>>> >>>> Blake >>>> >>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>>>> Lorenzo >>>>> You might want to look at relocating the inverter(s) closer to the meter instead of the array, one reason is even if there is some line loss at full power its less as the voltage goes up and the inverter does not see the line resistance that can cause high voltage issues at the inverter. Some engineers use more side of peak performance than full power, this keeps wite size down and does not effect output >>>>> Jerry >>>>> >>>>> On Sep 17, 2018 9:42 AM, "Lorenzo Ortiz" wrote: >>>>> Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> We have a PV array situated about 900' from the POI (240V 1PH). We initially spec'd (5) 11.4kW inverters and the combined output would be 238A. The wire size required for this current over that distance is cost prohibitive. >>>>> >>>>> A solution was to use a single 50kW 3 phase inverter at the array and then convert it to 240V... somehow? Is anyone familiar with how to go about doing this? My thought was to have a step down transformer at the POI and pull off two legs to get 240V. Is this even a thing? >>>>> >>>>> The other, more expensive option is to use a step up transformer at the array and a step down at the POI to get us a smaller wire size. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for any input. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer >>>>> >>>>> loren at cal-solar.com (530) 274-3671 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Blake Gleason - PE, LEED AP >>>> Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence >>>> >>>> P: 510.845.2997 x128 >>>> E: blake at sunlightandpower.com >>>> W: sunlightandpower.com >>>> >>>> See how universities are using business as a force for good with solar! >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer >>> >>> loren at cal-solar.com (530) 274-3671 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Wed Sep 19 08:22:52 2018 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 08:22:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator In-Reply-To: <20180911225809.484CB103983@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <10793554-dc2a-5ab9-09ef-f808bfbe10f9@solarray.com> <20180911225809.484CB103983@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Hey Wrenches, Thanks for all the great feedback on off-grid refrigerators. We decided to go with a GE 18 Cu Ft refrigerator. It's a pretty standard model and uses just over 1 kWh/day (369 kWh/year energy star rated). https://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-specs/GTE18ITHBB We also purchased it from a local dealer who also provides services. Thanks, Will On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 6:58 PM Drake wrote: > We recently installed a Frigidaire refrigerator in our off gird house, and > it uses about 1 KWh/ Day. It is nothing very special, but works fine. > > At 09:20 PM 9/8/2018, you wrote: > > Hello Off-grid Wrenches, > > After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our Sunfrost RF-12. We'd like > to upgrade to something a little more modern that doesn't leak water all > over the floor when it's humid > > For you off-grid installers what's your go to refrigerator recommendation? > I'm going to go through the energy star website but I thought I'd consult > with the experts too. I'd like to find something that has a form factor > similar to the Sunfrost although I know that's going to be hard to find. > > Thanks, > Will White > >  > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > [image: []] > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > > *FACT:  If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could > power the world with renewable energy. * > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Wed Sep 19 08:28:38 2018 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 08:28:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Multi-meters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Wrenches, Thanks for all the meter advice. I went with Jays suggestion of the Hioki CM4372. It's got all the features you could ever want including: Auto AC/DC current and voltage sensing (no AC volts or DC volts setting, same for current) Bluetooth app that can data log and create reports Can measure DC current and voltage at the same time Max, Min, Average measurements Inrush current measurements It's rated for 1,500 VDC and has 20 A and 600 A current measurements so you get the low current accuracy similar to a Fluke 325. Plus a bunch of other features I'd strongly suggest checking it out, they have great videos on their website: https://www.hioki.com/en/products/detail/?product_key=6362 I got it from testequipmentdepot.com for $330 plus free shipping and they had them in stock. It's even got a picture of a PV array on the box! Thanks, Will On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 11:07 AM jay wrote: > HI Will, > > I found this unit from Japan. Hioki CM4372 > > jay > > peltz power > > > > On Sep 13, 2018, at 5:28 AM, Will White wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I've started doing some work on 1,000 VDC systems so I need to upgrade my > meters. What I'd really like is a clamp-on amp meter that is rated for > 1,500 VDC but they don't seem to exist. I want to get something now that I > won't have to upgrade in a few years if I end up working on 1,500 VDC > systems. > > The only 1,500 VDC meter I've found are the Amprobe HD160C which is a > multi-meter (not clamp-on amp meter) that is rated for 1,500 VDC but can > only measure up to 2 A with their amp clamp attachment. The other option is > the Seaward Solar Utility Pro but I don't have that much money in the > budget. > > Is it worth getting a 1,500 VDC meter or is 1,000 VDC enough? What are you > techs in the field using? > > Thanks, > Will > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power > the world with renewable energy.* > > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scoraigwind at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 11:40:31 2018 From: scoraigwind at gmail.com (Hugh Piggott) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 16:40:31 +0100 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Voc for effective string? In-Reply-To: <2df1a4de-3b20-56e6-3fd6-f9999e07722d@sindelarsolar.com> References: <80966473-d319-afdf-b78e-5e92104c2bf7@sindelarsolar.com> <7c0aa143-baf5-efbe-5325-2b567524e9ae@psln.com> <2df1a4de-3b20-56e6-3fd6-f9999e07722d@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi All, This is a very interesting thread for me. I like low cost renewable energy, and I don’t jump to buy MPPT charge controllers when I believe that the setup I am planning works close to Vmpp inherently. I find that the panels used for grid tie with Vmpp around 31V actually work beautifully here in Scotland on a sunny day. Maybe in exceptional conditions there might be issues with equalising a battery but does this justify spending that much more on the system or settling for lower energy yield by buying controllers with money that can be spent on more modules? So for best value (where wire runs are short) I would recommend using 2 standard mass-produced panels/modules on a 48V system here in Scotland, and go with diversion charge control. That’s another big issue over which I differ with the majority. I like to maximise usage of renewable energy whereas most seem to ignore the surplus once the battery is charged. Hardly any MPPT controllers have built-in facilities for diversion of surplus. So in most cases I think the extra energy is rejected, while the homeowner burns propane to heat water. A well-designed system will have plenty of surplus, or the battery will not last long. OK so there could be issues with equalising batteries on solar-only systems, but most systems I design are hybrids. And even the solar-only ones don’t seem to struggle in hot weather here. And on the rare occasions when it is very hot in Scotland you are not going to feel any shortage of solar energy. Days are long. Charge current is low. As I said it’s a very interesting thread on which I often feel like a lone heretic. cheers Hugh > On 13 Sep 2018, at 02:55, Sindelar Solar > wrote: > > Bill and all, > > To elaborate a bit on Ray's accurate suggestion with a bit of history... in the early days the general consensus developed that for general use, 36 cells (given that one cell produces just shy of 1/2 volt, regardless of cell size) was the standard cell count for battery charging. This was based on the understanding that a typical Vmp of 17.1-17.6 for a 36 cell module was necessary to equalize a 12V FLA battery to ~15.5 VDC in hot ambient daytime temperatures after all system losses due to various resistance in wire, connections, controllers, etc., were accounted for. You'll occasionally see early modules with 35, 33, 32 and even 30 cells, tried as "self-regulating" modules - didn't work, as it couldn't account for voltage variations due to temperature. Anyway, 36 cells is the default standard to charge a 12V battery. Extrapolating from this, there's a direct correlation between cell count and voltage in most applications: as 36 cells > 12Vnom, 72 cells > 24V and 60 cells > 20Vnom. Go outside of these rules of thumb only with clear understanding of these limitations. > > Three 60 cell modules is a nominal 80V; ideal for a 48 Vnom battery bank, while still below the 150V limit of many standard controllers in record cold temperatures. Three 72 cell modules, or 72 Vnom, is on the ragged edge of voltage compliance in cold winter climates. > > Allan > > On 9/12/2018 10:30 AM, Ray wrote: >> A 2nd option: A pair of 72 cell modules should be enough. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 9/12/18 9:21 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: >>> Hi Bill, >>> >>> I agree with Allen. We get similar peak temps here and two 60 cell modules doesn't charge a 48V battery bank adequately. This effect would become worse over time with voltage degradation. I try to be at least 15% above highest expected battery voltage with Vmp of the strings. With 150V input limit on the Outback controllers, that leaves you with only one option, strings of 3, with our low temps. >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 4:24 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote: >>> Bill, I wouldn't, especially with FLAs. I have seen this situation here, where the summer highs are similar, with a few homeowner/hack installations and no, 60-cell modules will not finish the charge in hot weather. Strings of three work just about perfect with modern charge controllers, especially in winter, as they range high enough but well below 150VDC limits. >>> >>> Allan >>> >>> On 9/11/2018 4:04 PM, Bill Battagin wrote: >>>> I've been on hold with OB for about 40 minutes now and I need to know if 2 SW PVs with a Voc of 39.9 and a Vmpp of 31.3 will do an effective job of charging a 48 volt LA battery especially with temps of 95 degrees. Anybody have experience with this or similar, Appreciate the feedback. It just seems I'm a little low in Vmpp if I want to equalize when its hot. Will it be even more questionable in 10 years as PVs age? >>>> >>>> OB did just pickup only to tell me I need Java for the string sizing tool and he can't help me with this configuration. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> -- >>> Allan Sindelar >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> 505 780-2738 cell >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 13:08:18 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:08:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raised racking system Message-ID: I'm quoting a job on a concrete roof with three foot parapet walls. I'd like to raise the arrays about 24 inches above the roof to minimize shading, does any one have a solution for this application? -- Chris Mason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Sep 19 14:10:49 2018 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:10:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raised racking system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B91D2BE-4AA2-4980-84D2-482B64E9DD22@skyfireenergy.com> If budget and engineering allows, get I-beams cut to 3’ lengths with a plate welded on either end and bolt them down to the concrete roof? Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Sep 19, 2018, at 11:08 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > > I'm quoting a job on a concrete roof with three foot parapet walls. I'd like to raise the arrays about 24 inches above the roof to minimize shading, does any one have a solution for this application? > > -- > Chris Mason > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 14:11:24 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:11:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raised racking system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris You may want to look at Sunmodo, they have tall stand-off's Jerry On Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 10:08 AM Chris Mason wrote: > I'm quoting a job on a concrete roof with three foot parapet walls. I'd > like to raise the arrays about 24 inches above the roof to minimize > shading, does any one have a solution for this application? > > -- > Chris Mason > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sarahmray at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 17:48:46 2018 From: sarahmray at gmail.com (Sarah Ray) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 15:48:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question Message-ID: Fronius makes a single phase 1000vdc inverter. The Primo 11.4 now has an MPP voltage range of 240-800 V, and a maximum input voltage of 1,000V. You can download the datasheet at: http://www.fronius.com/en-us/usa/photovoltaics/products/all-products/inverters/fronius-primo/fronius-primo-11-4-1-208-240 - Sarah Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 11:45:12 -0700 From: Jay To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Does anyone make a 1000vdc single phase inverter? Would reduce wire costs dramatically Jay Peltz power. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hathasolar at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 15:15:40 2018 From: hathasolar at yahoo.com (wes kennedy) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 19:15:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1559092502.5633328.1537384540166@mail.yahoo.com> The Fronius Primo line is a single phase product that is rated for 1000VDC.  -Wes Kennedy  On Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 7:28:24 PM MDT, Jay wrote: Does anyone make a 1000vdc single phase inverter?Would reduce wire costs dramatically  JayPeltz power.  On Sep 18, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: Thanks for all the input guys.  After looking at the 3 phase with transformer options with some transformer manufacturers, that has been pretty much ruled out due to complexity/cost. With single phase step-up and step-down transformers, even at 600VAC, it still requires some monster wire.The best solution seems to be placing the inverters next to the POI and just running long strings from the array back to the inverters and accepting up to 4%-5% voltage drop. And that's with #8 instead of the usual #10 AND accounting for worst-case production. Man, sometimes this solar stuff is just crazy... On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Blake Gleason wrote: Good advice already on this thread.  A couple of points to consider: 1. Re: step-up/step-down option (probably what I'd do): definitely pay attention to transformer spec to minimize both magnetization and operating losses.  Newer DOE 2016-compliant transformers are MUCH better than before, and that's just the minimum standard.  If you really want to minimize magnetization losses, you can always design a relay/timer to disconnect the transformers at night (from the interconnection side), although I've found that this setup is either very expensive or too unreliable (nuisance tripping upon re-connect, timer gets "off" cycle somehow, etc). 2. I think someone mentioned a 480V single-phase inverter.  I'm not aware of a high-quality product meeting that description.  Is there one?  All of the "480V" single-phase inverters I'm aware of are 277V (line to neutral), which is hardly worth the transformer effort (versus 240V). 3. Definitely use aluminum wire for the long run.  If wire size is still too large, even with step up/down tranformers, consider allowing slightly increased voltage drop at full power (say, 5%), and, depending on typical grid voltage at the site, change taps on one of the transformers to err on the low side (from inverters' point-of-view), to keep the inverters from tripping at upper voltage limit at full power (max voltage drop/rise). Blake On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: LorenzoYou might want to look at relocating the inverter(s) closer to the meter instead of the array, one reason is even if there is some line loss at full power its less as the voltage goes up and the inverter does not see the line resistance that can cause high voltage issues at the inverter. Some engineers use more side of peak performance than full power, this keeps wite size down and does not effect outputJerry On Sep 17, 2018 9:42 AM, "Lorenzo Ortiz" wrote: Wrenches, We have a PV array situated about 900' from the POI (240V 1PH). We initially spec'd (5) 11.4kW inverters and the combined output would be 238A. The wire size required for this current over that distance is cost prohibitive. A solution was to use a single 50kW 3 phase inverter at the array and then convert it to 240V... somehow? Is anyone familiar with how to go about doing this? My thought was to have a step down transformer at the POI and pull off two legs to get 240V. Is this even a thing? The other, more expensive option is to use a step up transformer at the array and a step down at the POI to get us a smaller wire size. Thanks for any input. -- Loren Ortiz   Commercial PV Designer     loren at cal-solar.com  (530) 274-3671  Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945______________________________ _________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/o ptions.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wren ches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or g/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette. htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ______________________________ _________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/o ptions.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wren ches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re -wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or g/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette. htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Blake Gleason - PE, LEED AP Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence | | P: 510.845.2997 x128 E: blake at sunlightandpower.com W: sunlightandpower.com | | See how universities are using business as a force for good with solar! | | | | ______________________________ _________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/ options.cgi/re-wrenches-re- wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette. htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Loren Ortiz   Commercial PV Designer     loren at cal-solar.com  (530) 274-3671  Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Wed Sep 19 15:20:31 2018 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:20:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raised racking system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <031c01d4504d$d5c2bc00$81483400$@solarwindworks.com> You might consider the SnapNrack Series 200 ground mount system, we adapted it to work well on a raised roof mount before. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 10:08 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raised racking system I'm quoting a job on a concrete roof with three foot parapet walls. I'd like to raise the arrays about 24 inches above the roof to minimize shading, does any one have a solution for this application? -- Chris Mason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 23:24:51 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 23:24:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Engine high temp error shutdown on 6 kw EcoGen. Message-ID: First time I have seen this error. engine starts fine, at the point where the frequency stabilizes and it connects... it shuts down with this error. Engine is stone cold.... cannot be overheating. Has anybody seen this problem and know the answer? John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service (and Solar) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Sep 19 23:32:52 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 21:32:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Engine high temp error shutdown on 6 kw EcoGen. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33369315-0601-63f0-6f80-6e86679933f5@solarray.com> I've seen that happen when the engine was low on coolant or oil. The sensors shut it down. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/19/18 9:24 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > First time I have seen this error.  engine starts fine, at the point > where the frequency stabilizes and it connects... it shuts down with > this error.  Engine is stone cold.... cannot be overheating. > Has anybody seen this problem and know the answer? > > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service (and Solar) > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 07:27:27 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 07:27:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raised racking system In-Reply-To: <031c01d4504d$d5c2bc00$81483400$@solarwindworks.com> References: <031c01d4504d$d5c2bc00$81483400$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: That's what we are looking at, but it's harder to design for this application, if I didn't have to cost it, I would just go with it. We use it for ground mount, and it is the strongest racking for tough conditions. I think it is what we will end up with. On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 3:20 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: > You might consider the SnapNrack Series 200 ground mount system, we > adapted it to work well on a raised roof mount before. > > > > Chris Worcester > > Solar Wind Works > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > Office 530-582-4503 > > Cell 530-448-9692 > > www.solarwindworks.com > > chris at solarwindworks.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chris Mason > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 19, 2018 10:08 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Raised racking system > > > > I'm quoting a job on a concrete roof with three foot parapet walls. I'd > like to raise the arrays about 24 inches above the roof to minimize > shading, does any one have a solution for this application? > > > > -- > > Chris Mason > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 07:41:40 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 07:41:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Engine high temp error shutdown on 6 kw EcoGen. In-Reply-To: <33369315-0601-63f0-6f80-6e86679933f5@solarray.com> References: <33369315-0601-63f0-6f80-6e86679933f5@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, it is air cooled so no coolant. Engine oil is full and reserve tank is almost full. Could it be a defective sensor? Sure wish Generac would be more helpful to the lowly sales dealers.... They think we are too stupid to do basic troubleshooting and only service dealers can talk to their tech support. My local service dealer said to disconnect the wires from the temp sensor but that didn't work.. I'm assuming that a fail safe system would turn the unit off if a wire became disconnected. Anyone else out there have an idea.? On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 11:32 PM Ray wrote: > I've seen that happen when the engine was low on coolant or oil. The > sensors shut it down. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/19/18 9:24 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > > First time I have seen this error. engine starts fine, at the point where > the frequency stabilizes and it connects... it shuts down with this error. > Engine is stone cold.... cannot be overheating. > Has anybody seen this problem and know the answer? > > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service (and Solar) > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Sep 20 07:55:34 2018 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 07:55:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raised up ground mounts Message-ID: Any suggestions for ground mount racks where panels need to have the leading edge 6-8 feet above grade (due to flood level requirement)? Also, high wind area... 100kw system rating. Tilt can be as low as 5-10%. We're getting into carport territory here, but I'm trying to keep the cost reasonable since it won't have a dual function like a carport or shade structure. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Thu Sep 20 10:49:11 2018 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 07:49:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raised up ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5BA3B367.8020109@villagepowerdesign.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Thu Sep 20 11:09:14 2018 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 08:09:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raised up ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We've used DPW also with good results. We design for 110 mph winds out here and, depending on how high you go, can require some pretty beefy SCH80 8"-10"D pipe. MT Solar might be something to look at too. They make multi-pole mounts for larger arrays but can get a little pricey. Good luck! On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 4:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Any suggestions for ground mount racks where panels need to have the > leading edge 6-8 feet above grade (due to flood level requirement)? Also, > high wind area... 100kw system rating. Tilt can be as low as 5-10%. We're > getting into carport territory here, but I'm trying to keep the cost > reasonable since it won't have a dual function like a carport or shade > structure. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer* loren at cal-solar.com * (530) 274-3671* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 13:04:21 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 11:04:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Volume Solar Pumping Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, This is a larger volume pumping application than I have designed before so I'm trying to head in the right direction. We need ~ 144,000 gallons per day Head is ~70' We'd like to do this via a surface pump(s) if possible. Do you know any equipment that may be able to do this volume per day? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Thu Sep 20 13:19:11 2018 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 11:19:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raised up ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Take a look at SnapNrack Series 200 ground mounts. They are based around locally sourced galvanized pipe (typically comes in 21' lengths) and they can be designed in various heights off the ground. Sam Haraldson OnSite Energy, Inc. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 13:24:39 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:24:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Volume Solar Pumping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac Look at the grundfos RSI It’ll go up to 37kw for standard 3 phase pumps. At 37kw it’s 480 3 phase output and 1000vdc input if I remember correctly Jay > On Sep 20, 2018, at 10:04 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > This is a larger volume pumping application than I have designed before so I'm trying to head in the right direction. > > We need ~ 144,000 gallons per day > Head is ~70' > > We'd like to do this via a surface pump(s) if possible. > > Do you know any equipment that may be able to do this volume per day? > > Thanks in advance > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Sep 20 17:15:36 2018 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 17:15:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raised up ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wish! 180mph, Exposure Category D - about as bad as it gets in the US. I don't think pole mount will work around here. We need a really beefy structure. It's probably going to have to be custom... and expensive... On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:10 AM Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: > We've used DPW also with good results. We design for 110 mph winds out > here and, depending on how high you go, can require some pretty beefy SCH80 > 8"-10"D pipe. > MT Solar might be something to look at too. They make multi-pole mounts > for larger arrays but can get a little pricey. > > Good luck! > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 4:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Any suggestions for ground mount racks where panels need to have the >> leading edge 6-8 feet above grade (due to flood level requirement)? Also, >> high wind area... 100kw system rating. Tilt can be as low as 5-10%. We're >> getting into carport territory here, but I'm trying to keep the cost >> reasonable since it won't have a dual function like a carport or shade >> structure. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> > > > -- > *Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer* > > loren at cal-solar.com * (530) 274-3671* > > > > > > *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Sep 20 17:21:35 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 17:21:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> Message-ID: Hey Michael from SMA, any chance we can finally get an 240vac SI here in the states? Christopher On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 12:11 PM, Harry Mahon wrote: > Marco – > > > > I will need to ask for information about the BYD availability. Once those > units have all required listings/certifications and are available in US, > they should be ready to use with SBS. The CANBUS comms to the BMS has > already been vetted, and they are on the SMA Approved battery list > already. But I will get confirmation on the immediate usability. > > > > Best regards – > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > SMA America > Michael Mahon > Technical Trainer, Solar Academy > 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 > > Rocklin, CA 95765 > > U.S.A. > Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 > * www.SMA-America.com * > > > > Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview. > html > > > > Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/ > partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html > > > > > > [image: > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg] > [image: > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] > [image: > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] > [image: Linkedin Logo] > [image: > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] > [image: > SMAAFORUM_ICON] > > [image: cid:image008.jpg at 01D43B9E.70803930] > > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or > any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any > attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf > *Sent:* Monday, September 17, 2018 10:20 PM > > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC > > > > Mahalo Mike. > > > > Can you tell us please when the SS will actually be able to integrate the > BYD battery platform in the north American market? > > > > marco > > On Monday, September 17, 2018, Harry Mahon > wrote: > > Marco and all – yes that is the correct spec sheet for the BYD batteries > that will work with Sunny Boy Storage. > > > > SMA strongly would recommend the Sunny Island for off-grid in general and > certainly whole home backup. See the attached from Home Power April/May > 2011; quad stack of SIs acting as UPS for the home – just charging > batteries when grid is present, powering home with batteries/PV when grid > is gone. A dual split phase cluster is almost 24,000 W continuous (!) > capability and can handle crazy power factor loads with no issues. Built > in generator functions and two relay positions per Sunny Island allow for > lots of redundancy and fail-safe load shedding to be built in. > > > > The Sunny Boy Storage (SBS) is designed to be a grid-tied inverter to > allow higher self consumption of local PV power. Even with the ABU to > allow off grid operation (grid forming on its AC outputs rather than just > on the dedicated 120VAC Secure Power Supply outlet), there can be a several > second delay in the switch from grid power to microgrid as the ABU must > signal the Sunny Boy Storage that it has disconnected from the grid and > that it is safe for the SBS to form a grid on its output terminals. Also > be aware that there is no master-slave configuration ability with the SBS – > they will always assume they are acting independently on their energy meter > input information. > > > > Best regards – > > Mike > > > > SMA America > Michael Mahon > Technical Trainer, Solar Academy > 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 > > Rocklin, CA 95765 > > U.S.A. > Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 > * www.SMA-America.com * > > > > Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview. > html > > > > Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/ > partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html > > > > > > [image: > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg] > [image: > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] > [image: > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] > [image: Linkedin Logo] > [image: > http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] > [image: > SMAAFORUM_ICON] > > [image: cid:image008.jpg at 01D43B9E.70803930] > > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or > any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any > attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf > *Sent:* Saturday, September 15, 2018 10:08 PM > *To:* 'RE-wrenches' > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC > > > > Sabaidee from Vientiane, Lao PDR. > > > > Attached is the spec sheet on the BYD battery in question. > > > > I’ve confirmed with SMA directly that there’s no capability for the Sunny > Storage design (S.S., ABU and battery) to use a generator input. My > apologies for mis-stating earlier that it could accommodate a generator. > > > > As far as grid-tie with batteries, the Holy Grail as far as I’m concerned > is being able to provide whole house back-up and not have to do the old > fashioned and pain in the arse critical load sub-panel. The more choices > that we’re provided, the more better. So I’m pleased that companies like > SMA, Ensync, SolarEdge and others are bringing new equipment and designs to > market to allow for whole house back-up. > > > > marco > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *jay > *Sent:* Saturday, September 15, 2018 5:00 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC > > > > HI Harry, > > > > The battery is charged from the AC side correct? > > And is the charging algorithm inside the ABU. > > > > If so why couldn’t you use a generator to charge the battery? > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > > > > > > > On Sep 13, 2018, at 7:10 AM, Harry Mahon > wrote: > > > > Marco – > > > > The Sunny Boy Storage “Advanced Backup Unit” accessory or ABU will be > discussed at SPI in a couple weeks – first units are being stocked now at > our warehouses in US. The ABU will allow the SBS to be a grid former in > case of utility outage, however there are no plans to have any generator > inputs/controls to allow for battery charging from generat > > And yes, BYD BBox HV 5.12/7.68/10.24 devices will be supported when > available in US (will be this year I understand) > > > > Mike > > > > ----- > > > > The SMA Sunny Storage looks promising. > > > > It will be able to work with the LGC RESU10 HV battery and, sooner rather > > than later I hope, BYD package as well. > > > > And it will allow for a backup generator tie in. > > > > Ta-dah! > > > > marco > > > > On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Bruce Erickson > > > wrote: > > > > >* Hi Marco,* > > > > > >* I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and Pika* > > >* options for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for myself, and* > > >* found OB to be so much more expensive. The customer really wanted a system* > > >* that would be to be able to charge the batteries off a generator in an* > > >* outage, understandably. But the extra thousands in cost for OB ended up* > > >* being prohibitive. Add-on rapid shutdown is a killer. So he’s opting for a* > > >* nice modern high voltage DC system, with optimizers and built-in RSD, but* > > >* when there’s an extended outage, he’ll have to hope the sun comes out right* > > >* after the storm to recharge the batteries, or he’ll end up in the dark* > > >* again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a high voltage inverter* > > >* that allows generator charging, or a third-party battery charger, that I’m* > > >* not aware of. Otherwise high voltage systems are very limited for backup,* > > >* at least in winter storm scenarios.* > > > > > >* *Bruce Erickson** > > >* Mendocino Solar Service* > > >* PO Box 1252* > > >* Mendocino, CA 95460* > > >* 707-937-1701* > > >* 707-937-1741 fax* > > >* bruce at mendocinosolar.com * > > > > > >* *Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since* *1994** > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists. > re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 428 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Sep 20 18:00:30 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 18:00:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> Message-ID: <5D380B59-E59D-452B-8DC7-BCA6191FAA5C@swnl.net> I bet Mike could retire from the industry if he had a nickel for every time he was asked for/about that. I’ve asked Santa for years…… still waiting. T > On Sep 20, 2018, at 5:21 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > > Hey Michael from SMA, any chance we can finally get an 240vac SI here in the states? > > Christopher > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 12:11 PM, Harry Mahon > wrote: > Marco – > > > > I will need to ask for information about the BYD availability. Once those units have all required listings/certifications and are available in US, they should be ready to use with SBS. The CANBUS comms to the BMS has already been vetted, and they are on the SMA Approved battery list already. But I will get confirmation on the immediate usability. > > > > Best regards – > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > SMA America > Michael Mahon > Technical Trainer, Solar Academy > 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 > > Rocklin, CA 95765 > > U.S.A. > Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 > www.SMA-America.com > > > Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html > > > Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 10:20 PM > > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC > > > > Mahalo Mike. > > > > Can you tell us please when the SS will actually be able to integrate the BYD battery platform in the north American market? > > > > marco > > On Monday, September 17, 2018, Harry Mahon > wrote: > > Marco and all – yes that is the correct spec sheet for the BYD batteries that will work with Sunny Boy Storage. > > > > SMA strongly would recommend the Sunny Island for off-grid in general and certainly whole home backup. See the attached from Home Power April/May 2011; quad stack of SIs acting as UPS for the home – just charging batteries when grid is present, powering home with batteries/PV when grid is gone. A dual split phase cluster is almost 24,000 W continuous (!) capability and can handle crazy power factor loads with no issues. Built in generator functions and two relay positions per Sunny Island allow for lots of redundancy and fail-safe load shedding to be built in. > > > > The Sunny Boy Storage (SBS) is designed to be a grid-tied inverter to allow higher self consumption of local PV power. Even with the ABU to allow off grid operation (grid forming on its AC outputs rather than just on the dedicated 120VAC Secure Power Supply outlet), there can be a several second delay in the switch from grid power to microgrid as the ABU must signal the Sunny Boy Storage that it has disconnected from the grid and that it is safe for the SBS to form a grid on its output terminals. Also be aware that there is no master-slave configuration ability with the SBS – they will always assume they are acting independently on their energy meter input information. > > > > Best regards – > > Mike > > > > SMA America > Michael Mahon > Technical Trainer, Solar Academy > 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 > > Rocklin, CA 95765 > > U.S.A. > Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 > www.SMA-America.com > > > Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html > > > Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 10:08 PM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC > > > > Sabaidee from Vientiane, Lao PDR. > > > > Attached is the spec sheet on the BYD battery in question. > > > > I’ve confirmed with SMA directly that there’s no capability for the Sunny Storage design (S.S., ABU and battery) to use a generator input. My apologies for mis-stating earlier that it could accommodate a generator. > > > > As far as grid-tie with batteries, the Holy Grail as far as I’m concerned is being able to provide whole house back-up and not have to do the old fashioned and pain in the arse critical load sub-panel. The more choices that we’re provided, the more better. So I’m pleased that companies like SMA, Ensync, SolarEdge and others are bringing new equipment and designs to market to allow for whole house back-up. > > > > marco > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of jay > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 5:00 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC > > > > HI Harry, > > > > The battery is charged from the AC side correct? > > And is the charging algorithm inside the ABU. > > > > If so why couldn’t you use a generator to charge the battery? > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > > > > > > > On Sep 13, 2018, at 7:10 AM, Harry Mahon > wrote: > > > > Marco – > > > > The Sunny Boy Storage “Advanced Backup Unit” accessory or ABU will be discussed at SPI in a couple weeks – first units are being stocked now at our warehouses in US. The ABU will allow the SBS to be a grid former in case of utility outage, however there are no plans to have any generator inputs/controls to allow for battery charging from generat > > And yes, BYD BBox HV 5.12/7.68/10.24 devices will be supported when available in US (will be this year I understand) > > > > Mike > > > > ----- > > > > The SMA Sunny Storage looks promising. > > It will be able to work with the LGC RESU10 HV battery and, sooner rather > than later I hope, BYD package as well. > > And it will allow for a backup generator tie in. > > Ta-dah! > > marco > > On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Bruce Erickson > > wrote: > > > Hi Marco, > > > > I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and Pika > > options for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for myself, and > > found OB to be so much more expensive. The customer really wanted a system > > that would be to be able to charge the batteries off a generator in an > > outage, understandably. But the extra thousands in cost for OB ended up > > being prohibitive. Add-on rapid shutdown is a killer. So he’s opting for a > > nice modern high voltage DC system, with optimizers and built-in RSD, but > > when there’s an extended outage, he’ll have to hope the sun comes out right > > after the storm to recharge the batteries, or he’ll end up in the dark > > again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a high voltage inverter > > that allows generator charging, or a third-party battery charger, that I’m > > not aware of. Otherwise high voltage systems are very limited for backup, > > at least in winter storm scenarios. > > > > *Bruce Erickson* > > Mendocino Solar Service > > PO Box 1252 > > Mendocino, CA 95460 > > 707-937-1701 > > 707-937-1741 fax > > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > > > *Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since* *1994* > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 18:14:50 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 15:14:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raised up ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Iron ridge has a 3” option > On Sep 20, 2018, at 2:15 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > > I wish! 180mph, Exposure Category D - about as bad as it gets in the US. I don't think pole mount will work around here. We need a really beefy structure. It's probably going to have to be custom... and expensive... > > >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:10 AM Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: >> We've used DPW also with good results. We design for 110 mph winds out here and, depending on how high you go, can require some pretty beefy SCH80 8"-10"D pipe. >> MT Solar might be something to look at too. They make multi-pole mounts for larger arrays but can get a little pricey. >> >> Good luck! >> >> >>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 4:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> Any suggestions for ground mount racks where panels need to have the leading edge 6-8 feet above grade (due to flood level requirement)? Also, high wind area... 100kw system rating. Tilt can be as low as 5-10%. We're getting into carport territory here, but I'm trying to keep the cost reasonable since it won't have a dual function like a carport or shade structure. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Loren Ortiz Commercial PV Designer >> >> loren at cal-solar.com (530) 274-3671 >> >> >> >> >> Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windydankoff at mac.com Thu Sep 20 20:39:16 2018 From: windydankoff at mac.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 18:39:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Volume Solar Pumping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac — Jay has a good suggestion of the Grundfos RSI. There are other companies making “solar pump inverters” to run standard 3-ph. pumps. And, that IS the way to go for systems of this size. Another supplier in USA is SunPumps. Another is GenPro (Lorentz distributor). How to compare them? The inverter will represent a small proportion of the system cost, so I would have to ask each prospective supplier to produce a system design for you. Compare them carefully in regard to how they are expected to handle less-than full sun conditions. Also “bells and whistles” can be extremely helpful, meaning data-logging and remote connectivity and control features. Another rare feature is the ability to handle both solar and backup power sources, not merely by transfer switch or relay but by blending them with solar priority. Lorentz has been the leader in these features, but others have been catching up. I hope you (and others) will report back about your findings! I’m still researching this field form my upcoming book. Windy Dankoff Author, Consultant http://www.windydankoff.com Specialist in solar-electric applications & solar water pumping Education <> Industry support <> Since 1975 Co-author Solar Water Pumping (Taylor & Francis, Earthscan London) for publication in 2019 > From: Jay > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Volume Solar Pumping > Date: September 20, 2018 at 11:24:39 AM MDT > To: RE-wrenches > > > > Mac > Look at the grundfos RSI > > It’ll go up to 37kw for standard 3 phase pumps. > > At 37kw it’s 480 3 phase output and 1000vdc input if I remember correctly > > Jay >> On Sep 20, 2018, at 3:01 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: >> >> From: Mac Lewis > >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Volume Solar Pumping >> Date: September 20, 2018 at 11:04:21 AM MDT >> To: RE-wrenches > >> >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> This is a larger volume pumping application than I have designed before so I'm trying to head in the right direction. >> >> We need ~ 144,000 gallons per day >> Head is ~70' >> >> We'd like to do this via a surface pump(s) if possible. >> >> Do you know any equipment that may be able to do this volume per day? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> -- >> >> Mac Lewis > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Sep 21 00:25:38 2018 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 04:25:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: <5D380B59-E59D-452B-8DC7-BCA6191FAA5C@swnl.net> References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> <5D380B59-E59D-452B-8DC7-BCA6191FAA5C@swnl.net> Message-ID: Tump - You are right about the large number of times that has been asked, and I wish I had a happy answer. However, with all the work on Sunny Boy Storage and Sunny Central Storage (and even a Tripower storage), resources to develop and test a split phase Sunny Island are not available. There is active work on updating the communications to support SMA’s Ethernet based communications. Still, this may be months out. With the Smartformer being discontinued, the MidNite MNX-240 is the recommended part to create 240 split phase from one Sunny Island. Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D43B9E.70803930] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Tump Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 4:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC I bet Mike could retire from the industry if he had a nickel for every time he was asked for/about that. I’ve asked Santa for years…… still waiting. T On Sep 20, 2018, at 5:21 PM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: Hey Michael from SMA, any chance we can finally get an 240vac SI here in the states? Christopher On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 12:11 PM, Harry Mahon > wrote: Marco – I will need to ask for information about the BYD availability. Once those units have all required listings/certifications and are available in US, they should be ready to use with SBS. The CANBUS comms to the BMS has already been vetted, and they are on the SMA Approved battery list already. But I will get confirmation on the immediate usability. Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 10:20 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC Mahalo Mike. Can you tell us please when the SS will actually be able to integrate the BYD battery platform in the north American market? marco On Monday, September 17, 2018, Harry Mahon > wrote: Marco and all – yes that is the correct spec sheet for the BYD batteries that will work with Sunny Boy Storage. SMA strongly would recommend the Sunny Island for off-grid in general and certainly whole home backup. See the attached from Home Power April/May 2011; quad stack of SIs acting as UPS for the home – just charging batteries when grid is present, powering home with batteries/PV when grid is gone. A dual split phase cluster is almost 24,000 W continuous (!) capability and can handle crazy power factor loads with no issues. Built in generator functions and two relay positions per Sunny Island allow for lots of redundancy and fail-safe load shedding to be built in. The Sunny Boy Storage (SBS) is designed to be a grid-tied inverter to allow higher self consumption of local PV power. Even with the ABU to allow off grid operation (grid forming on its AC outputs rather than just on the dedicated 120VAC Secure Power Supply outlet), there can be a several second delay in the switch from grid power to microgrid as the ABU must signal the Sunny Boy Storage that it has disconnected from the grid and that it is safe for the SBS to form a grid on its output terminals. Also be aware that there is no master-slave configuration ability with the SBS – they will always assume they are acting independently on their energy meter input information. Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 10:08 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC Sabaidee from Vientiane, Lao PDR. Attached is the spec sheet on the BYD battery in question. I’ve confirmed with SMA directly that there’s no capability for the Sunny Storage design (S.S., ABU and battery) to use a generator input. My apologies for mis-stating earlier that it could accommodate a generator. As far as grid-tie with batteries, the Holy Grail as far as I’m concerned is being able to provide whole house back-up and not have to do the old fashioned and pain in the arse critical load sub-panel. The more choices that we’re provided, the more better. So I’m pleased that companies like SMA, Ensync, SolarEdge and others are bringing new equipment and designs to market to allow for whole house back-up. marco From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 5:00 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC HI Harry, The battery is charged from the AC side correct? And is the charging algorithm inside the ABU. If so why couldn’t you use a generator to charge the battery? jay peltz power On Sep 13, 2018, at 7:10 AM, Harry Mahon > wrote: Marco – The Sunny Boy Storage “Advanced Backup Unit” accessory or ABU will be discussed at SPI in a couple weeks – first units are being stocked now at our warehouses in US. The ABU will allow the SBS to be a grid former in case of utility outage, however there are no plans to have any generator inputs/controls to allow for battery charging from generat And yes, BYD BBox HV 5.12/7.68/10.24 devices will be supported when available in US (will be this year I understand) Mike ----- The SMA Sunny Storage looks promising. It will be able to work with the LGC RESU10 HV battery and, sooner rather than later I hope, BYD package as well. And it will allow for a backup generator tie in. Ta-dah! marco On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Bruce Erickson > wrote: > Hi Marco, > > I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and Pika > options for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for myself, and > found OB to be so much more expensive. The customer really wanted a system > that would be to be able to charge the batteries off a generator in an > outage, understandably. But the extra thousands in cost for OB ended up > being prohibitive. Add-on rapid shutdown is a killer. So he’s opting for a > nice modern high voltage DC system, with optimizers and built-in RSD, but > when there’s an extended outage, he’ll have to hope the sun comes out right > after the storm to recharge the batteries, or he’ll end up in the dark > again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a high voltage inverter > that allows generator charging, or a third-party battery charger, that I’m > not aware of. Otherwise high voltage systems are very limited for backup, > at least in winter storm scenarios. > > *Bruce Erickson* > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > *Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since* *1994* > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s [http://www.solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Solar-Wind-FX-Logo.png] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [http://solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/certs.jpg] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: image006.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18895 bytes Desc: image007.jpg URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 08:28:50 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:28:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Volume Solar Pumping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Windy, I have a question about 3 phase pumps but slightly off topic for this thread. I have a Lorentz pump I bought from you 18 years ago and is at 480 feet and my well will only give me 1 gpm with occasional air coming up . I replaced the control board 3 years ago and it had been working fine. It quit a few months ago right when we were getting into a drought here in Vermont. How can I be sure it is a controller issue and not the pump itself. My spring has dried up and I am now pumping from my other building and another spring 800' away using a Shurflow 12v pump. It is not doing well. You mentioned a Lorentz distributor which triggered me to jump in here. Is there a way to determine if the pump is good with resistance test of each leg? Or leg to leg with wires disconnected from controller? John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service (and Solar) On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 9:15 PM Windy Dankoff wrote: > Mac — Jay has a good suggestion of the Grundfos RSI. There are other > companies making “solar pump inverters” to run standard 3-ph. pumps. And, > that IS the way to go for systems of this size. > > Another supplier in USA is SunPumps. Another is GenPro (Lorentz > distributor). > > How to compare them? The inverter will represent a small proportion of > the system cost, so I would have to ask each prospective supplier to > produce a system design for you. Compare them carefully in regard to how > they are expected to handle less-than full sun conditions. Also “bells and > whistles” can be extremely helpful, meaning data-logging and remote > connectivity and control features. Another rare feature is the ability to > handle both solar and backup power sources, not merely by transfer switch > or relay but by blending them with solar priority. > > Lorentz has been the leader in these features, but others have been > catching up. I hope you (and others) will report back about your findings! > I’m still researching this field form my upcoming book. > > Windy Dankoff > Author, Consultant > > http://www.windydankoff.com > > Specialist in solar-electric applications & solar water pumping > Education <> Industry support <> Since 1975 > > Co-author *Solar Water Pumping* (Taylor & Francis, *Earthscan *London) > for publication in 2019 > > > *From: *Jay > *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] High Volume Solar Pumping* > *Date: *September 20, 2018 at 11:24:39 AM MDT > *To: *RE-wrenches > > > Mac > Look at the grundfos RSI > > It’ll go up to 37kw for standard 3 phase pumps. > > At 37kw it’s 480 3 phase output and 1000vdc input if I remember correctly > > Jay > > > On Sep 20, 2018, at 3:01 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > wrote: > > *From: *Mac Lewis > *Subject: **[RE-wrenches] High Volume Solar Pumping* > *Date: *September 20, 2018 at 11:04:21 AM MDT > *To: *RE-wrenches > > > Hello Wrenches, > > This is a larger volume pumping application than I have designed before so > I'm trying to head in the right direction. > > We need ~ 144,000 gallons per day > Head is ~70' > > We'd like to do this via a surface pump(s) if possible. > > Do you know any equipment that may be able to do this volume per day? > > Thanks in advance > > -- > > Mac Lewis > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Sep 21 08:52:30 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:52:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> <5D380B59-E59D-452B-8DC7-BCA6191FAA5C@swnl.net> Message-ID: That being said, SMA is loosing a lot of sales by not having a split phase Sunny Island on the market. It would be my unit of choice for many application that I have gone with other brands. The price of a pair of SIs is often just not competitive. At 12:25 AM 9/21/2018, you wrote: >Content-Language: en-US >Content-Type: multipart/related; > >boundary="_010_DB7PR04MB4506FEAEB9C7C3E0387F51EFBB120DB7PR04MB4506eurp_"; > type="multipart/alternative" > >Tump - You are right about the large number of >times that has been asked, and I wish I had a happy answer. > >However, with all the work on Sunny Boy Storage >and Sunny Central Storage (and even a Tripower >storage), resources to develop and test a split >phase Sunny Island are not available. There is >active work on updating the communications to >support SMA’s Ethernet based communications. Still, this may be months out. > >With the Smartformer being discontinued, the >MidNite MNX-240 is the recommended part to >create 240 split phase from one Sunny Island. > >Best regards – >Mike > > >SMA America >Michael Mahon >Technical Trainer, Solar Academy >6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 >Rocklin, CA 95765 >U.S.A. >Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 >www.SMA-America.com > >Solar Academy: >www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html > >Full training schedule: >https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html > > > >http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/fa > >http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/tw > >http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wo > >Linkedin Logo > >http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/yo > >SMAAFORUM_ICON > >cid:image008.jpg at 01D43B9E.70803930 > > > >This email and any attachments thereto may >contain SMA America, LLC confidential, >privileged and private material for the sole use >of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, >or distribution of this email (or any >attachments thereto) by others is strictly >prohibited. If you are not the intended >recipient, please contact the sender immediately >and permanently delete the original and any >copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. > >From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Tump >Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 4:01 PM >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC > >I bet Mike could retire from the industry if he >had a nickel for every time he was asked >for/about that. I’ve asked Santa for years €¦ still waiting. T >On Sep 20, 2018, at 5:21 PM, Chris Schaefer ><chris at solarandwindfx.com> wrote: > >Hey Michael from SMA, any chance we can finally >get an 240vac SI here in the states? > >Christopher > >On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 12:11 PM, Harry Mahon ><Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com> wrote: >Marco – < > >I will need to ask for information about the BYD >availability. Once those units have all >required listings/certifications and are >available in US, they should be ready to use >with SBS. The CANBUS comms to the BMS has >already been vetted, and they are on the SMA >Approved battery list already. But I will get >confirmation on the immediate usability. > >Best regards – > > > > >SMA America >Michael Mahon >Technical Trainer, Solar Academy >6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 >Rocklin, CA 95765 >U.S.A. >Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 >www.SMA-America.com > >Solar Academy: >www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html > >Full training schedule: >https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html > > > > > > > > > > > >This email and any attachments thereto may >contain SMA America, LLC confidential, >privileged and private material for the sole use >of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, >or distribution of this email (or any >attachments thereto) by others is strictly >prohibited. If you are not the intended >recipient, please contact the sender immediately >and permanently delete the original and any >copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. > >From: RE-wrenches ><re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> >On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf >Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 10:20 PM > >To: RE-wrenches ><re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC > > >Mahalo Mike. > >Can you tell us please when the SS will actually >be able to integrate the BYD battery platform in the north American market? > >marco > >On Monday, September 17, 2018, Harry Mahon ><Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com> wrote: >Marco and all – yes that is the correct spec >ssheet for the BYD batteries that will work with Sunny Boy Storage. > >SMA strongly would recommend the Sunny Island >for off-grid in general and certainly whole home >backup. See the attached from Home Power >April/May 2011; quad stack of SIs acting as UPS >for the home – just charging batteries when grid >is prresent, powering home with batteries/PV >when grid is gone. A dual split phase cluster >is almost 24,000 W continuous (!) capability and >can handle crazy power factor loads with no >issues. Built in generator functions and two >relay positions per Sunny Island allow for lots >of redundancy and fail-safe load shedding to be built in. > >The Sunny Boy Storage (SBS) is designed to be a >grid-tied inverter to allow higher self >consumption of local PV power. Even with the >ABU to allow off grid operation (grid forming on >its AC outputs rather than just on the dedicated >120VAC Secure Power Supply outlet), there can be >a several second delay in the switch from grid >power to microgrid as the ABU must signal the >Sunny Boy Storage that it has disconnected from >the grid and that it is safe for the SBS to form >a grid on its output terminals. Also be aware >that there is no master-slave configuration >ability with the SBS – they will always assume >they are acting independently on their energy meter input information. > >Best regards – >Mike > >SMA America >Michael Mahon >Technical Trainer, Solar Academy >6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 >Rocklin, CA 95765 >U.S.A. >Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 >www.SMA-America.com > >Solar Academy: >www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html > >Full training schedule: >https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html > > > > > > > > > > >This email and any attachments thereto may >contain SMA America, LLC confidential, >privileged and private material for the sole use >of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, >or distribution of this email (or any >attachments thereto) by others is strictly >prohibited. If you are not the intended >recipient, please contact the sender immediately >and permanently delete the original and any >copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. > >From: RE-wrenches ><re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> >On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf >Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 10:08 PM >To: 'RE-wrenches' ><re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC > >Sabaidee from Vientiane, Lao PDR. > >Attached is the spec sheet on the BYD battery in question. > >I’ve confirmed with SMA directly that >there’s no capability for the Sunny Storage >design (S.S., ABU and battery) to use a >generator input. My apologies for mis-stating >earlier that it could accommodate a generator. > >As far as grid-tie with batteries, the Holy >Grail as far as I’m concerned is being able to >provide whole house back-up and not have to do >the old fashioned and pain in the arse critical >load sub-panel. The more choices that we’re >provided, the more better. So I’m pleased >that companies like SMA, Ensync, SolarEdge and >others are bringing new equipment and designs to >market to allow for whole house back-up. > >marco > >From: RE-wrenches >[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >On Behalf Of jay >Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 5:00 AM >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC > >HI Harry, > >The battery is charged from the AC side correct? >And is the charging algorithm inside the ABU. > >If so why couldn’t you use a generator to charge the battery? > >jay > >peltz power > > > >On Sep 13, 2018, at 7:10 AM, Harry Mahon ><Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com> wrote: > >Marco – > >The Sunny Boy Storage “Advanced Backup Unit” >accessory or ABU will be discussed at SPI in a >couple weeks – first units are being stockeed >now at our warehouses in US. The ABU will allow >the SBS to be a grid former in case of utility >outage, however there are no plans to have any >generator inputs/controls to allow for battery charging from generat >And yes, BYD BBox HV 5.12/7.68/10.24 devices >will be supported when available in US (will be this year I understand) > >Mike > >----- > > >The SMA Sunny Storage looks promising. > >It will be able to work with the LGC RESU10 HV battery and, sooner rather >than later I hope, BYD package as well. > >And it will allow for a backup generator tie in. > >Ta-dah! > >marco > >On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Bruce Erickson ><bruce >at mendocinosolar.com> >wrote: > > > Hi Marco, > > > > I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and Pika > > options for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for myself, and > > found OB to be so much more expensive. The customer really wanted a system > > that would be to be able to charge the batteries off a generator in an > > outage, understandably. But the extra thousands in cost for OB ended up > > being prohibitive. Add-on rapid shutdown is a > killer. So he’s opting for a > > nice modern high voltage DC system, with optimizers and built-in RSD, but > > when there’s an extended outage, he’ll > have to hope the sun comes out right > > after the storm to recharge the batteries, or he’ll end up in the dark > > again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a high voltage inverter > > that allows generator charging, or a > third-party battery charger, that I’m > > not aware of. Otherwise high voltage systems are very limited for backup, > > at least in winter storm scenarios. > > > > *Bruce Erickson* > > Mendocino Solar Service > > PO Box 1252 > > Mendocino, CA 95460 > > 707-937-1701 > > 707-937-1741 fax > > > bruce > at mendocinosolar.com > > > > *Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since* *1994* > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > >-- >Chris Schaefer’s > >[] > >Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >www.solarandwindfx.com >~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >[] > >Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great >Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease >to exist when you take away from those who are >willing to work and give to those who would not." >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >Tump at swnl.net >www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: 2d0d73e4.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2d0d73f3.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18895 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Sep 21 09:54:38 2018 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:54:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Warranty Policy Message-ID: I'm hoping someone has some insight that can help me diagnose an issue and get this resolved as efficiently as possible. The client (not my install) had a 516 and a 304 error on an IG5100. Upon reset it would run in the morning, then throw the 304 in the afternoon each day. No fan noise could be heard. Fronius replaced the inverter under warranty. The new (refurb) unit started up fine, but then the customer reported that it was showing the 304 error again. Day after day, reset after reset, he was never able to detect fan noise. Fronius asked me to go out and check if the fan cable was disconnected. It was not. We could not observe or detect the fan running ever. I'm into this for three trips already, and getting the cover off is a huge task since it was wired on the side knockouts. Side note: customer service rep [arrogantly] said that's why they recommend wiring from the bottom. A) I didn't wire it, and B) I didn't design it with the knockouts there! So not I am faced with two options: 1) Go out and do a bunch of diagnostics again and likely make yet another trip to replace parts or the entire inverter again, or 2) get another replacement and risk that the returned unit is a "no-fault replacement" and get charged for shipping and fees. I'm hoping that someone has been in this position and can help me decide what risk to take. Ultimately I can't keep going back over and over losing money on a system I didn't install in the first place. Thanks, Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Sep 21 12:07:13 2018 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 16:07:13 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: <20180921125238.0783D105D0D@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> <5D380B59-E59D-452B-8DC7-BCA6191FAA5C@swnl.net> <20180921125238.0783D105D0D@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Drake – you are completely correct on the lost sales and two x SI not being price competitive until the size gets pretty large. It is simply a corporate decision on how much work would need to be done to completely redesign a very good product and make sure it meets the same performance and reliability standards as the original. Is that cost likely to be re-couped in a reasonable amount of time, based on an estimate of increased sales. And again, that is just the -US model, the MOW model is two generations ahead already, with no need for unbalanced output in a single unit. Best – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D43B9E.70803930] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 6:53 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC That being said, SMA is loosing a lot of sales by not having a split phase Sunny Island on the market. It would be my unit of choice for many application that I have gone with other brands. The price of a pair of SIs is often just not competitive. At 12:25 AM 9/21/2018, you wrote: Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_010_DB7PR04MB4506FEAEB9C7C3E0387F51EFBB120DB7PR04MB4506eurp_"; type="multipart/alternative" Tump - You are right about the large number of times that has been asked, and I wish I had a happy answer. However, with all the work on Sunny Boy Storage and Sunny Central Storage (and even a Tripower storage), resources to develop and test a split phase Sunny Island are not available. There is active work on updating the communications to support SMA’s Ethernet based communications. Still, this may be months out. With the Smartformer being discontinued, the MidNite MNX-240 is the recommended part to create 240 split phase from one Sunny Island. Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/fa] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/tw] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wo] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/yo] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D43B9E.70803930] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Tump Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 4:01 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC I bet Mike could retire from the industry if he had a nickel for every time he was asked for/about that. I’ve asked Santa for years…… €¦ still waiting. T On Sep 20, 2018, at 5:21 PM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: Hey Michael from SMA, any chance we can finally get an 240vac SI here in the states? Christopher On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 12:11 PM, Harry Mahon < Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com> wrote: Marco – < I will need to ask for information about the BYD availability. Once those units have all required listings/certifications and are available in US, they should be ready to use with SBS. The CANBUS comms to the BMS has already been vetted, and they are on the SMA Approved battery list already. But I will get confirmation on the immediate usability. Best regards – Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 10:20 PM To: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC Mahalo Mike. Can you tell us please when the SS will actually be able to integrate the BYD battery platform in the north American market? marco On Monday, September 17, 2018, Harry Mahon < Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com> wrote: Marco and all – yes that is the correct spec ssheet for the BYD batteries that will work with Sunny Boy Storage. SMA strongly would recommend the Sunny Island for off-grid in general and certainly whole home backup. See the attached from Home Power April/May 2011; quad stack of SIs acting as UPS for the home – just charging batteries when grid is prresent, powering home with batteries/PV when grid is gone. A dual split phase cluster is almost 24,000 W continuous (!) capability and can handle crazy power factor loads with no issues. Built in generator functions and two relay positions per Sunny Island allow for lots of redundancy and fail-safe load shedding to be built in. The Sunny Boy Storage (SBS) is designed to be a grid-tied inverter to allow higher self consumption of local PV power. Even with the ABU to allow off grid operation (grid forming on its AC outputs rather than just on the dedicated 120VAC Secure Power Supply outlet), there can be a several second delay in the switch from grid power to microgrid as the ABU must signal the Sunny Boy Storage that it has disconnected from the grid and that it is safe for the SBS to form a grid on its output terminals. Also be aware that there is no master-slave configuration ability with the SBS – they will always assume they are acting independently on their energy meter input information. Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 10:08 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC Sabaidee from Vientiane, Lao PDR. Attached is the spec sheet on the BYD battery in question. I’ve confirmed with SMA directly that there’s no capability for the Sunny Storage design (S.S., ABU and battery) to use a generator input. My apologies for mis-stating earlier that it could accommodate a generator. As far as grid-tie with batteries, the Holy Grail as far as I’m concerned is being able to provide whole house back-up and not have to do the old fashioned and pain in the arse critical load sub-panel. The more choices that we’re provided, the more better. So I’m pleased that companies like SMA, Ensync, SolarEdge and others are bringing new equipment and designs to market to allow for whole house back-up. marco From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 5:00 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC HI Harry, The battery is charged from the AC side correct? And is the charging algorithm inside the ABU. If so why couldn’t you use a generator to charge the battery? jay peltz power On Sep 13, 2018, at 7:10 AM, Harry Mahon < Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com> wrote: Marco – The Sunny Boy Storage “Advanced Backup Unit” accessory or ABU will be discussed at SPI in a couple weeks – first units are being stockeed now at our warehouses in US. The ABU will allow the SBS to be a grid former in case of utility outage, however there are no plans to have any generator inputs/controls to allow for battery charging from generat And yes, BYD BBox HV 5.12/7.68/10.24 devices will be supported when available in US (will be this year I understand) Mike ----- The SMA Sunny Storage looks promising. It will be able to work with the LGC RESU10 HV battery and, sooner rather than later I hope, BYD package as well. And it will allow for a backup generator tie in. Ta-dah! marco On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Bruce Erickson < bruce at mendocinosolar.com> wrote: > Hi Marco, > > I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and Pika > options for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for myself, and > found OB to be so much more expensive. The customer really wanted a system > that would be to be able to charge the batteries off a generator in an > outage, understandably. But the extra thousands in cost for OB ended up > being prohibitive. Add-on rapid shutdown is a killer. So he’s opting for a > nice modern high voltage DC system, with optimizers and built-in RSD, but > when there’s an extended outage, he’ll have to hope the sun comes out right > after the storm to recharge the batteries, or he’ll end up in the dark > again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a high voltage inverter > that allows generator charging, or a third-party battery charger, that I’m > not aware of. Otherwise high voltage systems are very limited for backup, > at least in winter storm scenarios. > > *Bruce Erickson* > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > *Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since* *1994* > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s [[]] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [[]] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: image006.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18895 bytes Desc: image007.jpg URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 14:55:57 2018 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 14:55:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Code signage for battery back-up? Message-ID: <5ba53ebb.1c69fb81.bde0f.8de5@mx.google.com> What is the current code requirements around the country for required signage for a residence/business with back-up battery storage? • For a home with a grid-tied PV system with back-up battery bank in the basement. • For an off-grid home with a stand alone power system. • For a business. I am volunteering to help fire departments in northern Vermont deal with emergency fire response on homes and businesses that may have solar and other alternative power sources. Thanks, David Palumbo Palumbo Consulting 462 Solar Way Hyde Park, VT 05655 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Sep 21 13:33:11 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 10:33:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> <5D380B59-E59D-452B-8DC7-BCA6191FAA5C@swnl.net> <20180921125238.0783D105D0D@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <6dfe7fc25a20b7f73b38631f026ae60d@127.0.0.1> What about Canada and Mexico and others that need split phase? I have never thought of using anything but Outback or Schneider because they have been building equipment for this hemisphere for decades :) And everywhere else also! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 16:07:13 +0000, Harry Mahon wrote: Drake - you are completely correct on the lost sales and two x SI not being price competitive until the size gets pretty large. It is simply a corporate decision on how much work would need to be done to completely redesign a very good product and make sure it meets the same performance and reliability standards as the original. Is that cost likely to be re-couped in a reasonable amount of time, based on an estimate of increased sales. And again, that is just the -US model, the MOW model is two generations ahead already, with no need for unbalanced output in a single unit. Best - Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com [3] Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html [4] Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [5] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Drake SENT: Friday, September 21, 2018 6:53 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC That being said, SMA is loosing a lot of sales by not having a split phase Sunny Island on the market. It would be my unit of choice for many application that I have gone with other brands. The price of a pair of SIs is often just not competitive. At 12:25 AM 9/21/2018, you wrote: Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_010_DB7PR04MB4506FEAEB9C7C3E0387F51EFBB120DB7PR04MB4506eurp_"; type="multipart/alternative" Tump - You are right about the large number of times that has been asked, and I wish I had a happy answer. However, with all the work on Sunny Boy Storage and Sunny Central Storage (and even a Tripower storage), resources to develop and test a split phase Sunny Island are not available. There is active work on updating the communications to support SMAâEUR(tm)s Ethernet based communications. Still, this may be months out. With the Smartformer being discontinued, the MidNite MNX-240 is the recommended part to create 240 split phase from one Sunny Island. Best regards - Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. 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Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 808 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18895 bytes Desc: not available URL: From windydankoff at mac.com Fri Sep 21 16:52:56 2018 From: windydankoff at mac.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 14:52:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Volume Solar Pumping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <536F5731-06F7-4DBB-9755-31C0BF0E7A8F@mac.com> John - A resistance test of each leg will show you the cable + windings that should be roughly 1 ohm, and they should be equal within .1 ohm. This will verify if the cable, splices and motor windings are OK. But, it won’t tell you if there is a mechanical issue. I may be able to help you directly, or else refer you to a solution. I’ll write to you off-list if you don’t mind. As an aside, if I may put on my educator hat: The industry uses the term 3-phase to refer to conventional 3-ph AC pumps. Your helical rotor pump, we refer to as “brushless DC” or the better, but less common term “electronically commutated motor (ECM)”. It does use a form of 3-ph, via 3 wires, but we name it something more specific to distinguish it from the conventional AC. — Windy > On Sep 21, 2018, at 1:10 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: > > From: John Blittersdorf > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Volume Solar Pumping > Date: September 21, 2018 at 6:28:50 AM MDT > To: RE-wrenches > > > > Hi Windy, > I have a question about 3 phase pumps but slightly off topic for this thread. I have a Lorentz pump I bought from you 18 years ago and is at 480 feet and my well will only > give me 1 gpm with occasional air coming up . I replaced the control board 3 years ago and it had been working fine. It quit a few months ago right when we were getting into a drought here in Vermont. How can I be sure it is a controller issue and not the pump itself. My spring has dried up and I am now pumping from my other building and another spring 800' away using a Shurflow 12v pump. It is not doing well. You mentioned a Lorentz distributor which triggered me to jump in here. Is there a way to determine if the pump is good with resistance test of each leg? Or leg to leg with wires disconnected from controller? > > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service (and Solar) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Sep 21 18:43:01 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:43:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Code_signage_for_battery_back-up=3F?= In-Reply-To: <5ba53ebb.1c69fb81.bde0f.8de5@mx.google.com> References: <5ba53ebb.1c69fb81.bde0f.8de5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi David, For Offgrid it varies from do whatever you want because there is no inspection to my philosophy of always exceeding code and using decades of offgrid common sense. Many Offgrid homes do not have someone to help because they often are remotely located. I would like to add on to your request here because I am seeing alot of people thinking/installing batteries in the conditioned space of a home. I have always believed that unless the battery was listed for conditioned space, (some Li Ion are) that it was a bad idea to do this. Not to mention insurance not covering a claim in a fire. Thx. --Dave / Offgrid Solar On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 14:55:57 -0400, David Palumbo wrote: What is the current code requirements around the country for required signage for a residence/business with back-up battery storage? * For a home with a grid-tied PV system with back-up battery bank in the basement. * For an off-grid home with a stand alone power system. * For a business. I am volunteering to help fire departments in northern Vermont deal with emergency fire response on homes and businesses that may have solar and other alternative power sources. Thanks, David Palumbo Palumbo Consulting 462 Solar Way Hyde Park, VT 05655 -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Sep 21 19:55:14 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 17:55:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Code signage for battery back-up? In-Reply-To: References: <5ba53ebb.1c69fb81.bde0f.8de5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I'm just going to add that some installers here are installing Li+ batteries indoors on the 2nd floor.  One was in the bedroom and kept the customer awake.  Plus when you consider that indoor space on homes can be up in the $300/ sq ft range that's adding quite a bit to the total cost of the PV system. Back to the signage issue, I haven't seen requirements, but some off grid places have signage near the door mentioning that the house is powered by a battery system with generator backup and may also describe the location of the disconnect.  I think it's a good idea to have a warning for any house with a  backup system: generator, batteries, etc.  However in practice on off grid homes, its usually way too late to worry about cutting power once the local VFD shows up.  They just contain the fire, but they're not going in. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/21/18 4:43 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Hi David, > > For Offgrid it varies from do whatever you want because there is no > inspection to my philosophy of always exceeding code and using decades > of offgrid common sense.  Many Offgrid homes do not have someone to > help because they often are remotely located. > > I would like to add on to your request here because I am seeing alot > of people thinking/installing batteries in the conditioned space of a > home. I have always believed that unless the battery was listed for > conditioned space, (some Li Ion are) that it was a bad idea to do > this. Not to mention insurance not covering a claim in a fire. Thx. > --Dave / Offgrid Solar > > On Fri, 21 Sep 2018 14:55:57 -0400, David Palumbo > wrote: > >> What is the current code requirements around the country for required >> signage for a residence/business with back-up battery storage? >> >> * For a home with a grid-tied PV system with back-up battery bank >> in the basement. >> * For an off-grid home with a stand alone power system. >> * For a business. >> >> I am volunteering to help fire departments in northern Vermont deal >> with emergency fire response on homes and businesses that may have >> solar and other alternative power sources. >> >> Thanks, >> >> David Palumbo >> >> Palumbo Consulting >> >> 462 Solar Way >> >> Hyde Park, VT 05655 >> > -- > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 21:47:18 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 18:47:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing Message-ID: <0B6832DB-057B-4786-A2BF-DD8BE6F3CE52@gmail.com> Hi all, I’m wondering if there is code reference to size of neutral vs power conductors. County is requiring neutral same size as mains 240vac. As it’s 500 mcm due to VD (200 amp service) it’s a non trivial expense. I know that where I live, the utility brings in a smaller neutral than L1/L2 Thanks in advance Jay From ray at solarray.com Sat Sep 22 01:23:37 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 23:23:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing In-Reply-To: <0B6832DB-057B-4786-A2BF-DD8BE6F3CE52@gmail.com> References: <0B6832DB-057B-4786-A2BF-DD8BE6F3CE52@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9a63ab92-847b-1303-6d44-cc2a9814824f@solarray.com> 220.61, 310.15(B)(7)(4), 215.2(2), 230.42(C) Can't say exactly how to apply all that to your case, but that should be a start. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/21/18 7:47 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi all, > > I’m wondering if there is code reference to size of neutral vs power conductors. > > County is requiring neutral same size as mains 240vac. > As it’s 500 mcm due to VD (200 amp service) it’s a non trivial expense. > > I know that where I live, the utility brings in a smaller neutral than L1/L2 > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sat Sep 22 08:59:51 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 08:59:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Code signage for battery back-up? In-Reply-To: <5ba53ebb.1c69fb81.bde0f.8de5@mx.google.com> References: <5ba53ebb.1c69fb81.bde0f.8de5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: There definitely areNEC signage requirements. VT is in NEC 2017.  I'll put the references below each bullet. On 9/21/2018 2:55 PM, David Palumbo wrote: > > What is the current code requirements around the country for required > signage for a residence/business with back-up battery storage? > > * For a home with a grid-tied PV system with back-up battery bank in > the basement. > Start with 690.53, 690.56(B),706.11(A), 690.55 > > * For an off-grid home with a stand alone power system. > Start with 690.53, 690.56(A), 706.11(B), 690.55 > > * For a business. > I don' t  think there is a differentiation for business v residences for non utility scale systems. Chris > I am volunteering to help fire departments in northern Vermont deal > with emergency fire response on homes and businesses that may have > solar and other alternative power sources. > > Thanks, > > David Palumbo > > Palumbo Consulting > > 462 Solar Way > > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sat Sep 22 00:38:36 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 18:38:36 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing In-Reply-To: <0B6832DB-057B-4786-A2BF-DD8BE6F3CE52@gmail.com> References: <0B6832DB-057B-4786-A2BF-DD8BE6F3CE52@gmail.com> Message-ID: <029d01d4522e$20ea3460$62be9d20$@com> At the risk of sounding like a grandpa Wrench...I've never had or seen a neutral conductor be smaller than current carrying. marco -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 3:47 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing Hi all, I’m wondering if there is code reference to size of neutral vs power conductors. County is requiring neutral same size as mains 240vac. As it’s 500 mcm due to VD (200 amp service) it’s a non trivial expense. I know that where I live, the utility brings in a smaller neutral than L1/L2 Thanks in advance Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From dana at solarwork.com Sat Sep 22 10:32:08 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 08:32:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing In-Reply-To: <029d01d4522e$20ea3460$62be9d20$@com> References: <0B6832DB-057B-4786-A2BF-DD8BE6F3CE52@gmail.com> <029d01d4522e$20ea3460$62be9d20$@com> Message-ID: <000001d45281$0be3e310$23aba930$@solarwork.com> What about 4/04/02/0 aluminum, service feed? Or is that utility excepted? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 10:39 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing At the risk of sounding like a grandpa Wrench...I've never had or seen a neutral conductor be smaller than current carrying. marco -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 3:47 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing Hi all, I’m wondering if there is code reference to size of neutral vs power conductors. County is requiring neutral same size as mains 240vac. As it’s 500 mcm due to VD (200 amp service) it’s a non trivial expense. I know that where I live, the utility brings in a smaller neutral than L1/L2 Thanks in advance Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 19:36:31 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 17:36:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ham Radio interference Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I've got a proposal out there for about a 11.5 kW grid-tied system. We are planning on using Enphase IQ 7+ inverters. Quick question, this guy has a pretty large Ham Radio setup operating at 3-30 MHz. He has a directional antennae that can push 1500W sometimes. Has anyone had any issues with Ham radio problems with these inverters? With either the radio setup or the inverter? He asked me if it would be an issue and I told him I'd look into it. I will contact enphase as well. Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Sep 22 21:07:21 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 21:07:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing In-Reply-To: <000001d45281$0be3e310$23aba930$@solarwork.com> References: <0B6832DB-057B-4786-A2BF-DD8BE6F3CE52@gmail.com> <029d01d4522e$20ea3460$62be9d20$@com> <000001d45281$0be3e310$23aba930$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <02d401d452d9$c9013f30$5b03bd90$@glbcc.com> Here is the code reference explaining this conductor size disparity from 2017 NEC: "According to Table 310.15(B)(16), a 3/0 AWG, Type THW copper conductor has an ampacity of 200 amperes. However, for a 3-wire, single-phase dwelling unit service, as shown in Exhibit 215.2, 310.15(B)(7) permits a service conductor (or a main power feeder conductor) with an ampacity of 83 percent of the service rating. This permits a minimum of 2/0 AWG, Type THW copper conductors or 4/0 AWG, Type THW aluminum conductors for services or a main power feeder rated at 200 amperes" -Glenn -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dana Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2018 10:32 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing What about 4/04/02/0 aluminum, service feed? Or is that utility excepted? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 10:39 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing At the risk of sounding like a grandpa Wrench...I've never had or seen a neutral conductor be smaller than current carrying. marco -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 3:47 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing Hi all, I’m wondering if there is code reference to size of neutral vs power conductors. County is requiring neutral same size as mains 240vac. As it’s 500 mcm due to VD (200 amp service) it’s a non trivial expense. I know that where I live, the utility brings in a smaller neutral than L1/L2 Thanks in advance Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From garrison.rie at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 01:17:20 2018 From: garrison.rie at gmail.com (Garrison) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 22:17:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing In-Reply-To: <02d401d452d9$c9013f30$5b03bd90$@glbcc.com> References: <0B6832DB-057B-4786-A2BF-DD8BE6F3CE52@gmail.com> <029d01d4522e$20ea3460$62be9d20$@com> <000001d45281$0be3e310$23aba930$@solarwork.com> <02d401d452d9$c9013f30$5b03bd90$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Is this for an inverted output circuit? If so then I think the NEC reference you’re looking for is 705.95(B). That says you can size the neutral to the same size as the EGC if the neutral is used only for instrumentation, voltage detection or phase detection. A number of single phase inverters these days do not require a neutral at all, so if the AHJ will not accept downsizing it may be worth changing inverters. Garrison > On Sep 22, 2018, at 6:07 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Here is the code reference explaining this conductor size disparity from 2017 NEC: > > "According to Table 310.15(B)(16), a 3/0 AWG, Type THW copper conductor > has an ampacity of 200 amperes. However, for a 3-wire, single-phase > dwelling unit service, as shown in Exhibit 215.2, 310.15(B)(7) permits a > service conductor (or a main power feeder conductor) with an ampacity > of 83 percent of the service rating. This permits a minimum of 2/0 AWG, > Type THW copper conductors or 4/0 AWG, Type THW aluminum conductors > for services or a main power feeder rated at 200 amperes" > > -Glenn > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dana > Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2018 10:32 AM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing > > What about 4/04/02/0 aluminum, service feed? Or is that utility excepted? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 10:39 PM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing > > At the risk of sounding like a grandpa Wrench...I've never had or seen a neutral conductor be smaller than current carrying. > > marco > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 3:47 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing > > Hi all, > > I’m wondering if there is code reference to size of neutral vs power conductors. > > County is requiring neutral same size as mains 240vac. > As it’s 500 mcm due to VD (200 amp service) it’s a non trivial expense. > > I know that where I live, the utility brings in a smaller neutral than L1/L2 > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Sep 23 07:03:35 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 07:03:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing Message-ID: Ooh, be careful with the neutral-less inverter choice.I am pretty sure that if the service has a neutral, you must use an inverter that has one as well, per codes.I don't have the article in front of me, however a few years back it was common to install inverters without a neutral, then a new code cycle was adopted and every one had to use a neutral. We had a few that failed and had to pull a neutral to install the replacements. -Glenn Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------From: GarrisonDate: Sun, Sep 23, 2018 1:17 AMTo: glenn.burt at glbcc.com;RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing Hi Jay, Is this for an inverted output circuit? If so then I think the NEC reference you’re looking for is 705.95(B). That says you can size the neutral to the same size as the EGC if the neutral is used only for instrumentation, voltage detection or phase detection. A number of single phase inverters these days do not require a neutral at all, so if the AHJ will not accept downsizing it may be worth changing inverters. Garrison > On Sep 22, 2018, at 6:07 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > Here is the code reference explaining this conductor size disparity from 2017 NEC: > > "According to Table 310.15(B)(16), a 3/0 AWG, Type THW copper conductor > has an ampacity of 200 amperes. However, for a 3-wire, single-phase > dwelling unit service, as shown in Exhibit 215.2, 310.15(B)(7) permits a > service conductor (or a main power feeder conductor) with an ampacity > of 83 percent of the service rating. This permits a minimum of 2/0 AWG, > Type THW copper conductors or 4/0 AWG, Type THW aluminum conductors > for services or a main power feeder rated at 200 amperes" > > -Glenn > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dana > Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2018 10:32 AM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing > > What about 4/04/02/0 aluminum, service feed? Or is that utility excepted? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 10:39 PM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing > > At the risk of sounding like a grandpa Wrench...I've never had or seen a neutral conductor be smaller than current carrying. > > marco > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 3:47 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing > > Hi all, > > I’m wondering if there is code reference to size of neutral vs power conductors. > > County is requiring neutral same size as mains 240vac. > As it’s 500 mcm due to VD (200 amp service) it’s a non trivial expense. > > I know that where I live, the utility brings in a smaller neutral than L1/L2 > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Sep 23 06:57:53 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 06:57:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ham Radio interference Message-ID: Hi Mac, A while back the magazine QST which is published by the Amateur Radio Relay League had an article written by a ham detailing his experience in quieting a rooftop array. I am pretty sure it was microinverters based.Anyway he ended up with a substantial number of toroidal chokes on most conductors if I recall. Sounded labor intensive and definately not free. Good luck.Glenn Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------From: Mac LewisDate: Sat, Sep 22, 2018 7:36 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Ham Radio interference Hi Wrenches, I've got a proposal out there for about a 11.5 kW grid-tied system.  We are planning on using Enphase IQ 7+ inverters.  Quick question, this guy has a pretty large Ham Radio setup operating at 3-30 MHz.  He has a directional antennae that can push 1500W sometimes.  Has anyone had any issues with Ham radio problems with these inverters?  With either the radio setup or the inverter? He asked me if it would be an issue and I told him I'd look into it.  I will contact enphase as well. Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Sep 22 21:22:21 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 21:22:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Code signage for battery back-up? In-Reply-To: <5ba53ebb.1c69fb81.bde0f.8de5@mx.google.com> References: <5ba53ebb.1c69fb81.bde0f.8de5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <02d501d452db$e1533870$a3f9a950$@glbcc.com> Hi David, I have taught similar classes for the Southern VT Regional Fire School, and here are a few references: NEC 2017 480.7(D) Notification 690.56 Identification of Power Sources (A) Facilities with Stand-Alone Systems 706.7(D) Notification 706.7(E)5 706.11 Directory NFPA-1 2015 is enforced in Vermont 11.12.2.1.4 Secondary Power Source Markings 11.12.2.1.5 Installer Information Hope this helps and good luck! Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of David Palumbo Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 2:56 PM To: Wrench List Subject: [RE-wrenches] Code signage for battery back-up? What is the current code requirements around the country for required signage for a residence/business with back-up battery storage? * For a home with a grid-tied PV system with back-up battery bank in the basement. * For an off-grid home with a stand alone power system. * For a business. I am volunteering to help fire departments in northern Vermont deal with emergency fire response on homes and businesses that may have solar and other alternative power sources. Thanks, David Palumbo Palumbo Consulting 462 Solar Way Hyde Park, VT 05655 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Sep 23 13:26:55 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 13:26:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing In-Reply-To: <0B6832DB-057B-4786-A2BF-DD8BE6F3CE52@gmail.com> References: <0B6832DB-057B-4786-A2BF-DD8BE6F3CE52@gmail.com> Message-ID: Emacs! At 09:47 PM 9/21/2018, you wrote: >Hi all, I’m wondering if there is code >reference to size of neutral vs power >conductors. County is requiring neutral same >size as mains 240vac. As it’s 500 mcm due to >VD (200 amp service) it’s a non trivial >expense. I know that where I live, the utility >brings in a smaller neutral than L1/L2 Thanks in >advance Jay >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or >update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 38555f75.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 211635 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 14:47:17 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 11:47:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing In-Reply-To: <20180923172708.7DE92105D90@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <0B6832DB-057B-4786-A2BF-DD8BE6F3CE52@gmail.com> <20180923172708.7DE92105D90@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: HI Drake and all, Thanks for this. As I understand this better now, maybe. Neutral sizing changes between supply side and load side of main service panel. Others have chimed in with an argument that can be made that if the neutral wire is sized for a 200 amp service then it should be OK even if the ungrounded wires are larger. Yes there would be higher VD than with the 500mcm but this would only be at fully 1 phase loaded which is highly unlikely. However the wire ampacity wouldn’t be in question even in a 100% 1 phase load. This project the owner decided that rather than fight the county, he had the money to install the 500mcm as a neutral. I have been just trying to educate myself for future projects and as often is the case with me and the NEC, its more complicated that I thought. jay peltz power > On Sep 23, 2018, at 10:26 AM, Drake wrote: > > <38555f75.jpg> > > > At 09:47 PM 9/21/2018, you wrote: >> Hi all, I’m wondering if there is code reference to size of neutral vs power conductors. County is requiring neutral same size as mains 240vac. As it’s 500 mcm due to VD (200 amp service) it’s a non trivial expense. I know that where I live, the utility brings in a smaller neutral than L1/L2 Thanks in advance Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Sep 23 18:31:12 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 18:31:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ham Radio interference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004b01d4538d$235eb350$6a1c19f0$@glbcc.com> I found the issue – April 2016 edition of QST magazine. It is the cover story and describes a Solar Edge installation and the mitigation experience – they quoted about 10% of the system installed costs could be expected to be needed to quiet the RF noise created by the PV system. I have a modest amateur radio station at my home, and a few modules using M250 microinverters about 20’ away on the side of my detached garage in an awning style. I definitely measure increased RF noise on the ham bands during the daytime when the system is operation – I just choose to adapt my radio usage around the inconvenience, operating after sundown, or for limited times and bands during the daytime. I am only using 100 Watts of power for my transmitter. So that is one of the two possible concerns with PV and amateur radio – how does a PV system affect the use of a ham radio. The other concern is how will a 1500W transmitter in close proximity to a PV system affect the operation of the solar electric system. Unfortunately I have no firsthand experience with this, however I see posts on other groups that indicate poor interaction. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:58 AM To: Mac Lewis ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ham Radio interference Hi Mac, A while back the magazine QST which is published by the Amateur Radio Relay League had an article written by a ham detailing his experience in quieting a rooftop array. I am pretty sure it was microinverters based. Anyway he ended up with a substantial number of toroidal chokes on most conductors if I recall. Sounded labor intensive and definately not free. Good luck. Glenn Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------ From: Mac Lewis Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2018 7:36 PM To: RE-wrenches; Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Ham Radio interference Hi Wrenches, I've got a proposal out there for about a 11.5 kW grid-tied system. We are planning on using Enphase IQ 7+ inverters. Quick question, this guy has a pretty large Ham Radio setup operating at 3-30 MHz. He has a directional antennae that can push 1500W sometimes. Has anyone had any issues with Ham radio problems with these inverters? With either the radio setup or the inverter? He asked me if it would be an issue and I told him I'd look into it. I will contact enphase as well. Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Mon Sep 24 08:32:52 2018 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 05:32:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ham Radio interference Message-ID: <20180924053252.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.5637ccbcf1.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 09:54:37 2018 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 06:54:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Neutral sizing In-Reply-To: References: <0B6832DB-057B-4786-A2BF-DD8BE6F3CE52@gmail.com> <20180923172708.7DE92105D90@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I have a long triplex wire run with a smaller neutral to my place from the utility entrance, and I do end up with a large load on one leg often. When another large load is on the other leg to balance the legs, it reduces the voltage drop dramatically. The voltage on the one leg rises when I balance the load on the other leg. I have a 120v septic pump, yes it should be 240v, but at the time I installed it I had a single 120v inverter. From now on I'll use 240v loads whenever possible. When I redo this line I will be using a full sized neutral, or maybe a balancing transformer if that is cheaper. I have many 120V only loads and currently have them arranged to be on opposite legs as much as possible, but it's hard to make sure they all are. Brad On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 7:10 PM jay wrote: > HI Drake and all, > > Thanks for this. > > As I understand this better now, maybe. Neutral sizing changes between > supply side and load side of main service panel. > > Others have chimed in with an argument that can be made that if the > neutral wire is sized for a 200 amp service then it should be OK even if > the ungrounded wires are larger. Yes there would be higher VD than with > the 500mcm but this would only be at fully 1 phase loaded which is highly > unlikely. However the wire ampacity wouldn’t be in question even in a 100% > 1 phase load. > > This project the owner decided that rather than fight the county, he had > the money to install the 500mcm as a neutral. > > I have been just trying to educate myself for future projects and as often > is the case with me and the NEC, its more complicated that I thought. > > jay > peltz power > > > > > > > On Sep 23, 2018, at 10:26 AM, Drake > wrote: > > <38555f75.jpg> > > > At 09:47 PM 9/21/2018, you wrote: > > Hi all, I’m wondering if there is code reference to size of neutral vs > power conductors. County is requiring neutral same size as mains 240vac. As > it’s 500 mcm due to VD (200 amp service) it’s a non trivial expense. I > know that where I live, the utility brings in a smaller neutral than L1/L2 > Thanks in advance Jay _______________________________________________ List > sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & > settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or > update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ericyoungren at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 15:07:58 2018 From: ericyoungren at gmail.com (Eric Youngren) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 12:07:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raised up ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, For the past few years I've been helping build mini-grids in rural Myanmar, where flooding is a regular occurrence in many villages. For one village that floods every year, we specified reinforced concrete posts under the feet of standard ground-mount racks, and also to elevate the power house with batteries and electronics. It works well and was a good fit for that project. See the attached photo. They mixed the concrete on-site using locally available sand, gravel, water and labor. Check out more photos here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tolscim2y09e671/AAAUuwLvfWL3X0iYH-WVgn8ma?dl=0 For a big system here in the USA I would look at the SnapNrack series 200, as others have suggested, set atop tall concrete posts. The vertical 1.5" galv pipe legs would go all the way from below grade to the top as the steel reinforcing inside what are basically very tall concrete footings. I'd think 10 or 12" diameter round "sonotube" forms set down below grade as much as the soil conditions require/allow. Use a concrete pumper truck to fill all the tubes with concrete. SnapNrack may have already done the engineering for this type of thing... > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I wish! 180mph, Exposure Category D - about as bad as it gets in the US. >> I don't think pole mount will work around here. We need a really beefy >> structure. It's probably going to have to be custom... and expensive... >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:10 AM Lorenzo Ortiz >> wrote: >> >>> We've used DPW also with good results. We design for 110 mph winds out >>> here and, depending on how high you go, can require some pretty beefy SCH80 >>> 8"-10"D pipe. >>> MT Solar might be something to look at too. They make multi-pole mounts >>> for larger arrays but can get a little pricey. >>> >>> Good luck! >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 4:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Any suggestions for ground mount racks where panels need to have the >>>> leading edge 6-8 feet above grade (due to flood level requirement)? Also, >>>> high wind area... 100kw system rating. Tilt can be as low as 5-10%. We're >>>> getting into carport territory here, but I'm trying to keep the cost >>>> reasonable since it won't have a dual function like a carport or shade >>>> structure. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Pauk Lay Pin Flooded.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 251492 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Mon Sep 24 15:18:45 2018 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 15:18:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV210 Curve Tracer Issues Message-ID: Does anyone here have a good understanding of the Seaward PV210 curve tracer? I recently went to commission a commercial site where nearly all of my 90 traces did not come out looking right. It looks like the tracer is just not taking enough data points to come up with a good trace. It also was not consistent. In the attached file, the two strings that have a Voc of about 800V were actually the same string. It seemed random that the tracer would take more or less points, and then come out with wildly different fill factors. The only times that it seemed to take more data points to come out with a (relatively) good curve was when the irradiance was changing during the trace. That is the third trace on the graph of a different string with Voc of about 435V. I have not used this a ton, but in the past I have gotten good traces out of it. When I had seen this in the past, I contacted Seaward, and they gave me a free calibration, even though it had been well under a year since I owned it. But they did not address the issue I am seeing here. So does anyone know why I might not be getting a good curve, and if there is anything that can be done about it? Thanks, Dave *Dave Tedeyan* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 10 Verizon Lane | Lansing, NY 14882 o. *607.930.3481* x6 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: test.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 15435 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 16:35:35 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 13:35:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raised up ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Have you looked at Unirac ULA, its been around forever but works better them most Jerry On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 4:55 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Any suggestions for ground mount racks where panels need to have the > leading edge 6-8 feet above grade (due to flood level requirement)? Also, > high wind area... 100kw system rating. Tilt can be as low as 5-10%. We're > getting into carport territory here, but I'm trying to keep the cost > reasonable since it won't have a dual function like a carport or shade > structure. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Mon Sep 24 20:56:10 2018 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 17:56:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV210 Curve Tracer Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009EC215-7F66-4BC0-9C51-6E8BD85F5131@solarenergy.org> Seaward changed/updated their algorithm/programming-not sure when but it hasn’t been too long ago. May be worth contacting them again to see if your unit could benefit from the upgrade (I think you have to send it in). Brian > On Sep 24, 2018, at 12:18 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Does anyone here have a good understanding of the Seaward PV210 curve tracer? I recently went to commission a commercial site where nearly all of my 90 traces did not come out looking right. It looks like the tracer is just not taking enough data points to come up with a good trace. It also was not consistent. > > In the attached file, the two strings that have a Voc of about 800V were actually the same string. It seemed random that the tracer would take more or less points, and then come out with wildly different fill factors. > > The only times that it seemed to take more data points to come out with a (relatively) good curve was when the irradiance was changing during the trace. That is the third trace on the graph of a different string with Voc of about 435V. > > I have not used this a ton, but in the past I have gotten good traces out of it. When I had seen this in the past, I contacted Seaward, and they gave me a free calibration, even though it had been well under a year since I owned it. But they did not address the issue I am seeing here. > > So does anyone know why I might not be getting a good curve, and if there is anything that can be done about it? > > Thanks, > Dave > > Dave Tedeyan > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 10 Verizon Lane | Lansing, NY 14882 > o. 607.930.3481 x6 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > B-Corporation Best for the World 2018 Honoree > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Sep 24 21:33:37 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 19:33:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raised up ground mounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9c9065c6-5097-a62f-23ae-44330105a199@solarray.com> The problem I had with Snap N rack pipe systems is they really can't take any uplift; which is not a good thing in Haiti during a hurricane.  Those little pinch screws just are not enough. I would look at other systems.  The one you built in Mynamar looks pretty good. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/24/18 1:07 PM, Eric Youngren wrote: > Hi Jason, > > For the past few years I've been helping build mini-grids in rural > Myanmar, where flooding is a regular occurrence in many villages. > > For one village that floods every year, we specified reinforced > concrete posts under the feet of standard ground-mount racks, and also > to elevate the power house with batteries and electronics.    It works > well and was a good fit for that project.   See the attached photo.  > They mixed the concrete on-site using locally available sand, gravel, > water and labor. > Check out more photos here: > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tolscim2y09e671/AAAUuwLvfWL3X0iYH-WVgn8ma?dl=0 > > For a big system here in the USA I would look at the SnapNrack series > 200, as others have suggested, set atop tall concrete posts.   The > vertical 1.5" galv pipe legs would go all the way from below grade to > the top as the steel reinforcing inside what are basically very tall > concrete footings.  I'd think 10 or 12" diameter round "sonotube" > forms set down below grade as much as the soil conditions > require/allow.  Use a concrete pumper truck to fill all the tubes with > concrete.    SnapNrack may have already done the engineering for this > type of thing... > > > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:15 PM Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > I wish! 180mph, Exposure Category D - about as bad as it gets > in the US. I don't think pole mount will work around here. We > need a really beefy structure. It's probably going to have to > be custom... and expensive... > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:10 AM Lorenzo Ortiz > > wrote: > > We've used DPW also with good results. We design for 110 > mph winds out here and, depending on how high you go, can > require some pretty beefy SCH80 8"-10"D pipe. > MT Solar might be something to look at too. They make > multi-pole mounts for larger arrays but can get a little > pricey. > > Good luck! > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 4:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > Any suggestions for ground mount racks where panels > need to have the leading edge 6-8 feet above grade > (due to flood level requirement)? Also, high wind > area... 100kw system rating. Tilt can be as low as > 5-10%. We're getting into carport territory here, but > I'm trying to keep the cost reasonable since it won't > have a dual function like a carport or shade structure. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 809 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 856 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 961 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 747 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38833 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 00:36:48 2018 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 18:36:48 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Panel Disposal Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, What is the best practice when it comes to disposing of used PV panels. To be clear I am talking about ones that no longer produce any power. Are they considered E-Waste, or are they getting tossed in the landfill ( I hope this is not the case)? Mahalo in advance, *James B. Rudolph* *ES Electrician # 10816* *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* *808.594.9969* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 00:45:58 2018 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 18:45:58 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Panel Disposal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Additionally: I am really hoping that there is an organization that is accepting and recycling them in the US. The European Union (PV Cycle) offers a tailor made waste management and legal compliance service for companies and waste holders in the EU. -James On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 6:36 PM James Rudolph wrote: > Aloha Wrenches, > What is the best practice when it comes to disposing of used PV panels. > To be clear I am talking about ones that no longer produce any power. > Are they considered E-Waste, or are they getting tossed in the landfill ( > I hope this is not the case)? > > > Mahalo in advance, > > > *James B. Rudolph* > > *ES Electrician # 10816* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155* > > *808.594.9969* > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Sep 25 10:32:48 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 07:32:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: <5BA9B3A2.7080002@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> <5D380B59-E59D-452B-8DC7-BCA6191FAA5C@swnl.net> <20180921125239.1FF09105E2C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <5BA9B3A2.7080002@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: I do not see the need for high voltage battery systems offgrid. Neither does Schneider, Outback or Magnum. I was involved with electronic field testing with a 400vdc model (all in one) that was not released. There was not a significant market for it. The new Outback Skybox (all in one) is going to be 48Vdc. There also are plenty of choices for 48V and 24V Lithium batteries and more technologies out there. The great lead acid batteries are plentiful. Why would you want high voltage DC batteries in your home? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 846 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 809 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 856 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Sep 25 10:41:22 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 07:41:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raised up ground mounts In-Reply-To: <9c9065c6-5097-a62f-23ae-44330105a199@solarray.com> References: <9c9065c6-5097-a62f-23ae-44330105a199@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1d0c04ec55277c926d8481293331923d@127.0.0.1> On pro-solar ground mounts, up in the mountains, we do not use the pinch screw on a Hollender pipe tee. We use pinch screw as a pilot for a bolt. That makes the Engineer happy and he signs it off. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 24 Sep 2018 19:33:37 -0600, Ray wrote: The problem I had with Snap N rack pipe systems is they really can't take any uplift; which is not a good thing in Haiti during a hurricane. Those little pinch screws just are not enough. I would look at other systems. The one you built in Mynamar looks pretty good. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/24/18 1:07 PM, Eric Youngren wrote: Hi Jason, For the past few years I've been helping build mini-grids in rural Myanmar, where flooding is a regular occurrence in many villages. For one village that floods every year, we specified reinforced concrete posts under the feet of standard ground-mount racks, and also to elevate the power house with batteries and electronics. It works well and was a good fit for that project. See the attached photo. They mixed the concrete on-site using locally available sand, gravel, water and labor. Check out more photos here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tolscim2y09e671/AAAUuwLvfWL3X0iYH-WVgn8ma?dl=0 [3] For a big system here in the USA I would look at the SnapNrack series 200, as others have suggested, set atop tall concrete posts. The vertical 1.5" galv pipe legs would go all the way from below grade to the top as the steel reinforcing inside what are basically very tall concrete footings. I'd think 10 or 12" diameter round "sonotube" forms set down below grade as much as the soil conditions require/allow. Use a concrete pumper truck to fill all the tubes with concrete. SnapNrack may have already done the engineering for this type of thing... On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:15 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: I wish! 180mph, Exposure Category D - about as bad as it gets in the US. I don't think pole mount will work around here. We need a really beefy structure. It's probably going to have to be custom... and expensive... On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:10 AM Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: We've used DPW also with good results. We design for 110 mph winds out here and, depending on how high you go, can require some pretty beefy SCH80 8"-10"D pipe. MT Solar might be something to look at too. They make multi-pole mounts for larger arrays but can get a little pricey. Good luck! On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 4:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Any suggestions for ground mount racks where panels need to have the leading edge 6-8 feet above grade (due to flood level requirement)? Also, high wind area... 100kw system rating. Tilt can be as low as 5-10%. We're getting into carport territory here, but I'm trying to keep the cost reasonable since it won't have a dual function like a carport or shade structure. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tolscim2y09e671/AAAUuwLvfWL3X0iYH-WVgn8ma?dl=0 [4] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [5] mailto:lorenzo at cal-solar.com [6] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Tue Sep 25 11:16:52 2018 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 15:16:52 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: <5BA9B3A2.7080002@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> <5D380B59-E59D-452B-8DC7-BCA6191FAA5C@swnl.net> <20180921125239.1FF09105E2C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <5BA9B3A2.7080002@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Jeff – There likely will be no generator controls built into the SBS. It can act as a load to charge batteries if generator is present and within spec for the grid-tied inverter (SBS), and if the generator is shut off manually (or externally to the SBS), then with the ABU accessory, the SBS can become a grid former. But it will not have the auto start/stop ability and the parameters for warm up/cool down times and exercise time limits for a generator. I hear you about the SI – I do feel it is the smartest, most capable device we sell. But as it is a small fraction of our sales, resources are allocated to make sure that our grid tied inverters can meet all of the utility grid support requirements (CA Ruel 21 phase 1, HECO Rule 14H, ISO-NE) and working to integrate SunSpec Rapid Shutdown transmitters to allow grid-tied string inverters to compete in a cost effective manner in resi and commercial segments in North America and otherwise. That is just a much larger market. Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/facebook.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/twitter.jpg] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wordpress.jpg] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/youtube.jpg] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D43B9E.70803930] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 10:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC Hi all, Yes the history of SMA missing the boat with supporting off-grid in the U.S. goes way back to the John B. and Sam V. days - they really tried going way back to the 90s. Germany would just not prioritize it. I was one of the early beta testers of the SI - it's by far the best system out there - if only they would offer a split-phase. Now the game is to see who gets to really supporting high-voltage Li WITH off-grid support of generators as well as grid-tie sell-back. Outback and Pika - game on! I sure wish SMA were in the running! - we'll see with the SBS but probably no generator support right Mike? What can we do to get the message through Mike? Okay I'm probably dreaming. For what it's worth, Jeff -- Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Renewable Energy Design & Installation Ecovillage Design Consultant Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 www.villagepowerdesign.com 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Drake wrote: That being said, SMA is loosing a lot of sales by not having a split phase Sunny Island on the market. It would be my unit of choice for many application that I have gone with other brands. The price of a pair of SIs is often just not competitive. At 12:25 AM 9/21/2018, you wrote: Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_010_DB7PR04MB4506FEAEB9C7C3E0387F51EFBB120DB7PR04MB4506eurp_"; type="multipart/alternative" Tump - You are right about the large number of times that has been asked, and I wish I had a happy answer. However, with all the work on Sunny Boy Storage and Sunny Central Storage (and even a Tripower storage), resources to develop and test a split phase Sunny Island are not available. There is active work on updating the communications to support SMA’s Ethernet based communications. Still, this may be months out. With the Smartformer being discontinued, the MidNite MNX-240 is the recommended part to create 240 split phase from one Sunny Island. Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/fa] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/tw] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/wo] [Linkedin Logo] [http://sma-planet.sma.de/fileadmin/fm-dam/infos/social_media/yo] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] [cid:image008.jpg at 01D43B9E.70803930] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Tump Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 4:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC I bet Mike could retire from the industry if he had a nickel for every time he was asked for/about that. I’ve asked Santa for years…… €¦ still waiting. T On Sep 20, 2018, at 5:21 PM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: Hey Michael from SMA, any chance we can finally get an 240vac SI here in the states? Christopher On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 12:11 PM, Harry Mahon < Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com> wrote: Marco – < I will need to ask for information about the BYD availability. Once those units have all required listings/certifications and are available in US, they should be ready to use with SBS. The CANBUS comms to the BMS has already been vetted, and they are on the SMA Approved battery list already. But I will get confirmation on the immediate usability. Best regards – Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 10:20 PM To: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC Mahalo Mike. Can you tell us please when the SS will actually be able to integrate the BYD battery platform in the north American market? marco On Monday, September 17, 2018, Harry Mahon < Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com> wrote: Marco and all – yes that is the correct spec ssheet for the BYD batteries that will work with Sunny Boy Storage. SMA strongly would recommend the Sunny Island for off-grid in general and certainly whole home backup. See the attached from Home Power April/May 2011; quad stack of SIs acting as UPS for the home – just charging batteries when grid is prresent, powering home with batteries/PV when grid is gone. A dual split phase cluster is almost 24,000 W continuous (!) capability and can handle crazy power factor loads with no issues. Built in generator functions and two relay positions per Sunny Island allow for lots of redundancy and fail-safe load shedding to be built in. The Sunny Boy Storage (SBS) is designed to be a grid-tied inverter to allow higher self consumption of local PV power. Even with the ABU to allow off grid operation (grid forming on its AC outputs rather than just on the dedicated 120VAC Secure Power Supply outlet), there can be a several second delay in the switch from grid power to microgrid as the ABU must signal the Sunny Boy Storage that it has disconnected from the grid and that it is safe for the SBS to form a grid on its output terminals. Also be aware that there is no master-slave configuration ability with the SBS – they will always assume they are acting independently on their energy meter input information. Best regards – Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches < re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 10:08 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC Sabaidee from Vientiane, Lao PDR. Attached is the spec sheet on the BYD battery in question. I’ve confirmed with SMA directly that there’s no capability for the Sunny Storage design (S.S., ABU and battery) to use a generator input. My apologies for mis-stating earlier that it could accommodate a generator. As far as grid-tie with batteries, the Holy Grail as far as I’m concerned is being able to provide whole house back-up and not have to do the old fashioned and pain in the arse critical load sub-panel. The more choices that we’re provided, the more better. So I’m pleased that companies like SMA, Ensync, SolarEdge and others are bringing new equipment and designs to market to allow for whole house back-up. marco From: RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 5:00 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC HI Harry, The battery is charged from the AC side correct? And is the charging algorithm inside the ABU. If so why couldn’t you use a generator to charge the battery? jay peltz power On Sep 13, 2018, at 7:10 AM, Harry Mahon < Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com> wrote: Marco – The Sunny Boy Storage “Advanced Backup Unit” accessory or ABU will be discussed at SPI in a couple weeks – first units are being stockeed now at our warehouses in US. The ABU will allow the SBS to be a grid former in case of utility outage, however there are no plans to have any generator inputs/controls to allow for battery charging from generat And yes, BYD BBox HV 5.12/7.68/10.24 devices will be supported when available in US (will be this year I understand) Mike ----- The SMA Sunny Storage looks promising. It will be able to work with the LGC RESU10 HV battery and, sooner rather than later I hope, BYD package as well. And it will allow for a backup generator tie in. Ta-dah! marco On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Bruce Erickson < bruce at mendocinosolar.com> wrote: > Hi Marco, > > I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and Pika > options for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for myself, and > found OB to be so much more expensive. The customer really wanted a system > that would be to be able to charge the batteries off a generator in an > outage, understandably. But the extra thousands in cost for OB ended up > being prohibitive. Add-on rapid shutdown is a killer. So he’s opting for a > nice modern high voltage DC system, with optimizers and built-in RSD, but > when there’s an extended outage, he’ll have to hope the sun comes out right > after the storm to recharge the batteries, or he’ll end up in the dark > again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a high voltage inverter > that allows generator charging, or a third-party battery charger, that I’m > not aware of. Otherwise high voltage systems are very limited for backup, > at least in winter storm scenarios. > > *Bruce Erickson* > Mendocino Solar Service > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > 707-937-1701 > 707-937-1741 fax > bruce at mendocinosolar.com > > *Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since* *1994* > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s [[]] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [[]] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Renewable Energy Design & Installation Ecovillage Design Consultant Former NABCEP Certified - 2003-2012 Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46 www.villagepowerdesign.com 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image012.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 961 bytes Desc: image012.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image013.png Type: image/png Size: 747 bytes Desc: image013.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image014.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38833 bytes Desc: image014.jpg URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Tue Sep 25 12:13:44 2018 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 09:13:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> <5D380B59-E59D-452B-8DC7-BCA6191FAA5C@swnl.net> <20180921125239.1FF09105E2C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <5BA9B3A2.7080002@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <0E0DB32E-ED55-406F-89AD-7B58EFA72692@villagepowerdesign.com> Hi Dave and All. Reasons for HV batteries off grid? 1) Smaller cable size (I just did an 18 Kw off grid with 4 SIs and the cable costs alone were in the order of $400) and increased flexibility locating batteries and inverter. 10 AWG plug and play. 2) Higher efficiencies. Easy integration on the DC bus. 3) Integration with GTBB battery tech and systems. Why have two standards and two sets of equipment? The line between Off Grid and GTBB will blur as more GT customers want more storage and more Off-grid customers want the option of grid hookup at some point. For developing countries as off grid micro grids grow they can merge. 4). Integration with Electric Vehicles as storage for either GTBB or Off-Grid - can integrate on the DC bus seamlessly. These are the reasons that seem obvious to me. I’d be surprised if the manufacturers are not thinking this way. Though you may be right as I was surprised that Outback went 48V with the Skybox. And it’s been a hard sell to get SMA to support US off-grid. If the equipment could do both seamlessly they would have more market. And High Voltage safety is not really an issue with proper (standard electrician) training and as the only electrician or customer interface is a plug or set of small non-energized terminals. Having high voltage DC in you car is more dangerous. House fires are caused by amperage leaks (much higher in Low V) (and shorted PB-acid) way more than voltage leaks. I’m off to SPI. I’ll ask them . . From what I understand Pika is heading that direction. I imagine Powerwall too if they ever decide to support off-grid. Best Jeff Sent from my iPhone On Sep 25, 2018, at 7:32 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > I do not see the need for high voltage battery systems offgrid. Neither does Schneider, Outback or Magnum. I was involved with electronic field testing with a 400vdc model (all in one) that was not released. There was not a significant market for it. The new Outback Skybox (all in one) is going to be 48Vdc. > > There also are plenty of choices for 48V and 24V Lithium batteries and more technologies out there. The great lead acid batteries are plentiful. Why would you want high voltage DC batteries in your home? > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > > > > > > they’d have more market penetration. I’m off to SPI. I’ll ask them . . From what I understand Pika is heading that direction. I imagine Powerwall too. Best Jeff Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 25, 2018, at 7:32 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I do not see the need for high voltage battery systems offgrid. Neither does Schneider, Outback or Magnum. I was involved with electronic field testing with a 400vdc model (all in one) that was not released. There was not a significant market for it. The new Outback Skybox (all in one) is going to be 48Vdc. > > There also are plenty of choices for 48V and 24V Lithium batteries and more technologies out there. The great lead acid batteries are plentiful. Why would you want high voltage DC batteries in your home? > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Tue Sep 25 14:47:12 2018 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 11:47:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV Panel Disposal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 14:49:10 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 11:49:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: <0E0DB32E-ED55-406F-89AD-7B58EFA72692@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> <5D380B59-E59D-452B-8DC7-BCA6191FAA5C@swnl.net> <20180921125239.1FF09105E2C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <5BA9B3A2.7080002@villagepowerdesign.com> <0E0DB32E-ED55-406F-89AD-7B58EFA72692@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <7B75C66F-4F8E-4921-9456-F3D6A5D93D8B@gmail.com> Hi all What is the news on the skybox? Last I checked it was still MIA Jay > On Sep 25, 2018, at 9:13 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > Hi Dave and All. > > Reasons for HV batteries off grid? > > 1) Smaller cable size (I just did an 18 Kw off grid with 4 SIs and the cable costs alone were in the order of $400) and increased flexibility locating batteries and inverter. 10 AWG plug and play. > > 2) Higher efficiencies. Easy integration on the DC bus. > > 3) Integration with GTBB battery tech and systems. Why have two standards and two sets of equipment? The line between Off Grid and GTBB will blur as more GT customers want more storage and more Off-grid customers want the option of grid hookup at some point. For developing countries as off grid micro grids grow they can merge. > > 4). Integration with Electric Vehicles as storage for either GTBB or Off-Grid - can integrate on the DC bus seamlessly. > > These are the reasons that seem obvious to me. I’d be surprised if the manufacturers are not thinking this way. Though you may be right as I was surprised that Outback went 48V with the Skybox. And it’s been a hard sell to get SMA to support US off-grid. If the equipment could do both seamlessly they would have more market. > > And High Voltage safety is not really an issue with proper (standard electrician) training and as the only electrician or customer interface is a plug or set of small non-energized terminals. Having high voltage DC in you car is more dangerous. House fires are caused by amperage leaks (much higher in Low V) (and shorted PB-acid) way more than voltage leaks. > > I’m off to SPI. I’ll ask them . . From what I understand Pika is heading that direction. I imagine Powerwall too if they ever decide to support off-grid. > > Best > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > > > > > From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Sep 25 17:15:09 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 14:15:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: <7B75C66F-4F8E-4921-9456-F3D6A5D93D8B@gmail.com> References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> <5D380B59-E59D-452B-8DC7-BCA6191FAA5C@swnl.net> <20180921125239.1FF09105E2C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <5BA9B3A2.7080002@villagepowerdesign.com> <0E0DB32E-ED55-406F-89AD-7B58EFA72692@villagepowerdesign.com> <7B75C66F-4F8E-4921-9456-F3D6A5D93D8B@gmail.com> Message-ID: AEE had a training course webinar. The screenshot is from them and they say October... On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 11:49:10 -0700, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > What is the news on the skybox? > > Last I checked it was still MIA > > Jay > > > >> On Sep 25, 2018, at 9:13 AM, Jeff Clearwater >> wrote: >> >> Hi Dave and All. >> >> Reasons for HV batteries off grid? >> >> 1) Smaller cable size (I just did an 18 Kw off grid with 4 SIs and the >> cable costs alone were in the order of $400) and increased flexibility >> locating batteries and inverter. 10 AWG plug and play. >> >> 2) Higher efficiencies. Easy integration on the DC bus. >> >> 3) Integration with GTBB battery tech and systems. Why have two >> standards and two sets of equipment? The line between Off Grid and GTBB >> will blur as more GT customers want more storage and more Off-grid >> customers want the option of grid hookup at some point. For developing >> countries as off grid micro grids grow they can merge. >> >> 4). Integration with Electric Vehicles as storage for either GTBB or >> Off-Grid - can integrate on the DC bus seamlessly. >> >> These are the reasons that seem obvious to me. I’d be surprised if the >> manufacturers are not thinking this way. Though you may be right as I was >> surprised that Outback went 48V with the Skybox. And it’s been a hard >> sell to get SMA to support US off-grid. If the equipment could do both >> seamlessly they would have more market. >> >> And High Voltage safety is not really an issue with proper (standard >> electrician) training and as the only electrician or customer interface >> is a plug or set of small non-energized terminals. Having high voltage DC >> in you car is more dangerous. House fires are caused by amperage leaks >> (much higher in Low V) (and shorted PB-acid) way more than voltage leaks. >> >> >> I’m off to SPI. I’ll ask them . . From what I understand Pika is heading >> that direction. I imagine Powerwall too if they ever decide to support >> off-grid. >> >> Best >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: skybox1.PNG Type: image/png Size: 63323 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Tue Sep 25 18:25:06 2018 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 15:25:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> <5D380B59-E59D-452B-8DC7-BCA6191FAA5C@swnl.net> <20180921125239.1FF09105E2C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <5BA9B3A2.7080002@villagepowerdesign.com> <0E0DB32E-ED55-406F-89AD-7B58EFA72692@villagepowerdesign.com> <7B75C66F-4F8E-4921-9456-F3D6A5D93D8B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5BAAB5C2.6060601@villagepowerdesign.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 19:38:13 2018 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 16:38:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> <5D380B59-E59D-452B-8DC7-BCA6191FAA5C@swnl.net> <20180921125239.1FF09105E2C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <5BA9B3A2.7080002@villagepowerdesign.com> <0E0DB32E-ED55-406F-89AD-7B58EFA72692@villagepowerdesign.com> <7B75C66F-4F8E-4921-9456-F3D6A5D93D8B@gmail.com> Message-ID: A more recent spec sheet shows the MPPT window starting at 200v instead of 250v, which is a significant improvement. Brad On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 2:41 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > AEE had a training course webinar. The screenshot is from them and they > say October... > > On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 11:49:10 -0700, Jay wrote: > > Hi all > > > > What is the news on the skybox? > > > > Last I checked it was still MIA > > > > Jay > > > > > > > >> On Sep 25, 2018, at 9:13 AM, Jeff Clearwater > >> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Dave and All. > >> > >> Reasons for HV batteries off grid? > >> > >> 1) Smaller cable size (I just did an 18 Kw off grid with 4 SIs and the > >> cable costs alone were in the order of $400) and increased flexibility > >> locating batteries and inverter. 10 AWG plug and play. > >> > >> 2) Higher efficiencies. Easy integration on the DC bus. > >> > >> 3) Integration with GTBB battery tech and systems. Why have two > >> standards and two sets of equipment? The line between Off Grid and > GTBB > >> will blur as more GT customers want more storage and more Off-grid > >> customers want the option of grid hookup at some point. For > developing > >> countries as off grid micro grids grow they can merge. > >> > >> 4). Integration with Electric Vehicles as storage for either GTBB or > >> Off-Grid - can integrate on the DC bus seamlessly. > >> > >> These are the reasons that seem obvious to me. I’d be surprised if the > >> manufacturers are not thinking this way. Though you may be right as I > was > >> surprised that Outback went 48V with the Skybox. And it’s been a hard > >> sell to get SMA to support US off-grid. If the equipment could do both > >> seamlessly they would have more market. > >> > >> And High Voltage safety is not really an issue with proper (standard > >> electrician) training and as the only electrician or customer interface > >> is a plug or set of small non-energized terminals. Having high voltage > DC > >> in you car is more dangerous. House fires are caused by amperage leaks > >> (much higher in Low V) (and shorted PB-acid) way more than voltage > leaks. > >> > >> > >> I’m off to SPI. I’ll ask them . . From what I understand Pika is > heading > >> that direction. I imagine Powerwall too if they ever decide to support > >> off-grid. > >> > >> Best > >> > >> Jeff > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060_______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Sep 25 19:48:10 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 16:48:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> <5D380B59-E59D-452B-8DC7-BCA6191FAA5C@swnl.net> <20180921125239.1FF09105E2C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <5BA9B3A2.7080002@villagepowerdesign.com> <0E0DB32E-ED55-406F-89AD-7B58EFA72692@villagepowerdesign.com> <7B75C66F-4F8E-4921-9456-F3D6A5D93D8B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c8cc826a8f3c0a9e722ae9d3ddf9888@127.0.0.1> Outback said at SPI today they have shipped more than a dozen. The Schneider mppt-80-600 starts at 180vdc BTW. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 16:38:13 -0700, Bradley Bassett wrote: A more recent spec sheet shows the MPPT window starting at 200v instead of 250v, which is a significant improvement. Brad On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 2:41 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: AEE had a training course webinar. The screenshot is from them and they say October... On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 11:49:10 -0700, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > What is the news on the skybox? > > Last I checked it was still MIA > > Jay > > > >> On Sep 25, 2018, at 9:13 AM, Jeff Clearwater >> wrote: >> >> Hi Dave and All. >> >> Reasons for HV batteries off grid? >> >> 1) Smaller cable size (I just did an 18 Kw off grid with 4 SIs and the >> cable costs alone were in the order of $400) and increased flexibility >> locating batteries and inverter. 10 AWG plug and play. >> >> 2) Higher efficiencies. Easy integration on the DC bus. >> >> 3) Integration with GTBB battery tech and systems. Why have two >> standards and two sets of equipment? The line between Off Grid and GTBB >> will blur as more GT customers want more storage and more Off-grid >> customers want the option of grid hookup at some point. For developing >> countries as off grid micro grids grow they can merge. >> >> 4). Integration with Electric Vehicles as storage for either GTBB or >> Off-Grid - can integrate on the DC bus seamlessly. >> >> These are the reasons that seem obvious to me. I'd be surprised if the >> manufacturers are not thinking this way. Though you may be right as I was >> surprised that Outback went 48V with the Skybox. And it's been a hard >> sell to get SMA to support US off-grid. If the equipment could do both >> seamlessly they would have more market. >> >> And High Voltage safety is not really an issue with proper (standard >> electrician) training and as the only electrician or customer interface >> is a plug or set of small non-energized terminals. Having high voltage DC >> in you car is more dangerous. House fires are caused by amperage leaks >> (much higher in Low V) (and shorted PB-acid) way more than voltage leaks. >> >> >> I'm off to SPI. I'll ask them . . From what I understand Pika is heading >> that direction. I imagine Powerwall too if they ever decide to support >> off-grid. >> >> Best >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [11] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [12] text 209 813 0060_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [5] mailto:jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [12] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [13] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [16] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Sep 27 15:55:16 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 15:55:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC In-Reply-To: References: <05F60894-AE18-40D1-A862-7B3312B709B2@gmail.com> <004501d44d72$d8a9bc80$89fd3580$@com> <5D380B59-E59D-452B-8DC7-BCA6191FAA5C@swnl.net> <20180921125239.1FF09105E2C@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <5BA9B3A2.7080002@villagepowerdesign.com> <0E0DB32E-ED55-406F-89AD-7B58EFA72692@villagepowerdesign.com> <7B75C66F-4F8E-4921-9456-F3D6A5D93D8B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Can optimizers be used with the Sky Box? At 07:38 PM 9/25/2018, you wrote: >A more recent spec sheet shows the MPPT window >starting at 200v instead of 250v, which is a significant improvement. > >Brad > >On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 2:41 PM Dave Angelini >Offgrid Solar <offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: >AEE had a training course webinar. The screenshot is from them and they >say October... > >On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 11:49:10 -0700, Jay ><jay.peltz at gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi all > > > > What is the news on the skybox? > > > > Last I checked it was still MIA > > > > Jay > > > > > > > >> On Sep 25, 2018, at 9:13 AM, Jeff Clearwater > >> <jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Dave and All. > >> > >> Reasons for HV batteries off grid? > >> > >> 1) Smaller cable size (I just did an 18 Kw off grid with 4 SIs and the > >> cable costs alone were in the order of $400) and increased flexibility > >> locating batteries and inverter. 10 AWG plug and play. > >> > >> 2) Higher efficiencies. Easy integration on the DC bus. > >> > >> 3) Integration with GTBB battery tech and systems. Why have two > >> standards and two sets of equipment? The line between Off Grid and >GTBB > >> will blur as more GT customers want more storage and more Off-grid > >> customers want the option of grid hookup at some point.  For >developing > >> countries as off grid micro grids grow they can merge. > >> > >> 4). Integration with Electric Vehicles as storage for either GTBB or > >> Off-Grid - can integrate on the DC bus seamlessly. > >> > >> These are the reasons that seem obvious to me. I’d be surprised if the > >> manufacturers are not thinking this way. Though you may be right as I >was > >> surprised that Outback went 48V with the Skybox. And it’s been a hard > >> sell to get SMA to support US off-grid. If the equipment could do both > >> seamlessly they would have more market. > >> > >> And High Voltage safety is not really an issue with proper (standard > >> electrician) training and as the only electrician or customer interface > >> is a plug or set of small non-energized terminals. Having high voltage >DC > >> in you car is more dangerous. House fires are caused by amperage leaks > >> (much higher in Low V) (and shorted PB-acid) way more than voltage >leaks. > >> > >> > >> I’m off to SPI. I’ll ask them . . From what I understand Pika is >heading > >> that direction. I imagine Powerwall too if they ever decide to support > >> off-grid. > >> > >> Best > >> > >> Jeff > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: > RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > >-- >Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >"we go where powerlines don't" >http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >text 209 813 0060_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 13:40:24 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 11:40:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE unreliable with powerline internet and Trace SW inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches, and Outback; Please let me know if you have experienced this problem and even better if you have any solutions. I have a wonderful off-grid client near a tiny Colorado town, and the internet connection comes in via cable...it's pretty reliable. But the Cable company set up whole-house internet via powerline, little white boxes that plug into the 120VAC outlets with a LAN cable to the routers, one of which deals with both the OpticsRE interface and the RESOL solar thermal logging and is hard-wired. We got both going on the same powerline router, but the screen shot below shows the horrible reliability. Now the RESOL system is having problems on the web, also. All this modern data is layered on the 120VAC output of a marvelous old Trace SW. The home is 2 foot thick concrete and stucco walls layered with rebar inside and out, not wifi-friendly. My suggested solution is just wifi extenders. Has anyone else tried to do OpticsRE over a powerline router connection offgrid on antique Inverter power? Best regards; Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP PV Associate 970.672.4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OPTICSRE.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 104462 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Sep 30 16:19:27 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 13:19:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback OpticsRE unreliable with powerline internet and Trace SW inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f420befdc0705a73ec0e2b7f37054c4@127.0.0.1> I have had to replace old Inverters that were working but not meeting specification and were causing weird problems offgrid. My clients power systems that run Insight from Schneider and Optics are always hard wired to an ethernet port on the cable or wireless router to avoid other problems. The same with Hughes net. Just easier avoiding issues for me:) Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 30 Sep 2018 11:40:24 -0600, Dan Fink wrote: Esteemed Wrenches, and Outback; Please let me know if you have experienced this problem and even better if you have any solutions. I have a wonderful off-grid client near a tiny Colorado town, and the internet connection comes in via cable...it's pretty reliable. But the Cable company set up whole-house internet via powerline, little white boxes that plug into the 120VAC outlets with a LAN cable to the routers, one of which deals with both the OpticsRE interface and the RESOL solar thermal logging and is hard-wired. We got both going on the same powerline router, but the screen shot below shows the horrible reliability. Now the RESOL system is having problems on the web, also. All this modern data is layered on the 120VAC output of a marvelous old Trace SW. The home is 2 foot thick concrete and stucco walls layered with rebar inside and out, not wifi-friendly. My suggested solution is just wifi extenders. Has anyone else tried to do OpticsRE over a powerline router connection offgrid on antique Inverter power? Best regards; Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor(tm) for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers(tm) NABCEP PV Associate 970.672.4342 -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OPTICSRE.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 104462 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 14:36:33 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 12:36:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] deka ultra battery Message-ID: HI All, Has anyone installed, seen, used or priced the Deka Ultrabattery for stationary applications? ( solar) Thanks jay peltz power From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Oct 1 13:21:03 2018 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 17:21:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] deka ultra battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26ce3920219b4022a3973989adf9dfb4@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> Hi Jay, I have seen, touched and priced out but not yet installed or used. Spent a lot of time with their engineers working with a couple customers of mine. The ultrabattery looks interesting, but finding the price point very high and my clients so far not wanting to spend a lot of money on something that is new and unproven. About 2x the price of UnigyII. I've tried to work on them to give me a very good deal on a demo set for my place, but didn't get far with that. I am not sure how to sell something that there is limited experience with. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay Sent: September-30-18 11:37 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] deka ultra battery HI All, Has anyone installed, seen, used or priced the Deka Ultrabattery for stationary applications? ( solar) Thanks jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From solareagle at solareagle.com Tue Oct 2 04:13:34 2018 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 01:13:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Broken bolt Message-ID: Anyone seen this before, the bolt on a shunt inside a Magnum inverter snapped right off, other half inside the shunt. I was tightening it but I don’t believe excessively. It appears to be crystallized. Magnum is replacing the shunt but it’s my good luck that the job is 5 hours into a remote backwater along a punishing road. Ron Young earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_1821.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 91343 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Oct 2 11:20:03 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 09:20:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Broken bolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How many lugs were under the bolt?  It looks possibly like it didn't have enough threads into the shunt. I replace the bolt with a longer one, if I have more than one lug.  Also I use the thin lugs that come in Outback, Magnum, and Midnite equipment; I never use those super thick lugs that most electrical supplies have. They are way too thick and usually don't play well with shunt blocks or battery posts.  They also are not usually meant for the fine stranded cable usually used. Standard THHN in 4/0 puts way too much strain on bolts and hardware. I get UL listed thin lugs from Del City and Quick Cable, and use Cobra X Flex or the dual listed locomotive cable.  None of this may be your problem however. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/2/18 2:13 AM, Ron Young wrote: > Anyone seen this before, the bolt on a shunt inside a Magnum inverter > snapped right off, other half inside the shunt. I was tightening it > but I don’t believe excessively. It appears to be crystallized. Magnum > is replacing the shunt but it’s my good luck that the job is 5 hours > into a remote backwater along a punishing road. > > > Ron Young > earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_1821.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 91343 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 11:26:02 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 08:26:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Broken bolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ron It almost looks like the bolt to stud is off center as it might be gauling causing pre-mature torq on the stud that can lead to failure, try grease paste on the threads next time, it might help. Jerry On Tue, Oct 2, 2018, 1:14 AM Ron Young wrote: > Anyone seen this before, the bolt on a shunt inside a Magnum inverter > snapped right off, other half inside the shunt. I was tightening it but I > don’t believe excessively. It appears to be crystallized. Magnum is > replacing the shunt but it’s my good luck that the job is 5 hours into a > remote backwater along a punishing road. > > > Ron Young > earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_1821.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 91343 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ntrei at 1scom.net Wed Oct 3 09:48:40 2018 From: ntrei at 1scom.net (Jim Duncan) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 08:48:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Broken bolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <930da2c1-1611-4e6d-b2f9-a771372146fe@1scom.net> By no means should you ever put a lubricant on threads. Grease will lubricate and reduce friction. Friction is what holds the threads tight against each other. If it's SS into SS you know already to use anti-seize compound which contains powdered metal, nickel/silver or copper/orange. Jim Duncan North Texas Renewable Energy [retired] On 10/2/2018 10:26 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Ron > It almost looks like the bolt to stud is off center as it might be > gauling causing pre-mature torq on the stud that can lead to failure, > try grease paste on the threads next time, it might help. > Jerry > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018, 1:14 AM Ron Young > wrote: > > Anyone seen this before, the bolt on a shunt inside a Magnum > inverter snapped right off, other half inside the shunt. I was > tightening it but I don’t believe excessively. It appears to be > crystallized. Magnum is replacing the shunt but it’s my good luck > that the job is 5 hours into a remote backwater along a punishing > road. > > > Ron Young > earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Wed Oct 3 16:22:43 2018 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 13:22:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Broken bolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don’t believe the problem was galling, the bolt was already seated and I was just doing a final torque on it. Tightening wasn’t excessive for the size of the bolt. Looking at the cross section of the bolt it just doesn’t look like it has solidified in the mfg. process. I think oxides were formed from metallic impurities during manufacture or some other related cause. Ron > On Oct 2, 2018, at 8:26 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Ron > It almost looks like the bolt to stud is off center as it might be gauling causing pre-mature torq on the stud that can lead to failure, try grease paste on the threads next time, it might help. > Jerry > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018, 1:14 AM Ron Young > wrote: > Anyone seen this before, the bolt on a shunt inside a Magnum inverter snapped right off, other half inside the shunt. I was tightening it but I don’t believe excessively. It appears to be crystallized. Magnum is replacing the shunt but it’s my good luck that the job is 5 hours into a remote backwater along a punishing road. > > > > Ron Young > earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Oct 3 18:04:42 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 15:04:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Broken bolt In-Reply-To: <930da2c1-1611-4e6d-b2f9-a771372146fe@1scom.net> References: <930da2c1-1611-4e6d-b2f9-a771372146fe@1scom.net> Message-ID: Jim I cant agree, lub on threads reduces false torg and prevents damage to the treads, FYI every engine uses oil on the threads for this same reason. Now looking at the stud it is bent not much but it is and if it was overtorqed or thread damage, it it is easy to check, band saw down the long line and see if the nuts fall off, if they do its the stud or high torg if not its thread damage. Jerry On Oct 3, 2018 6:48 AM, "Jim Duncan" wrote: By no means should you ever put a lubricant on threads. Grease will lubricate and reduce friction. Friction is what holds the threads tight against each other. If it's SS into SS you know already to use anti-seize compound which contains powdered metal, nickel/silver or copper/orange. Jim Duncan North Texas Renewable Energy [retired] On 10/2/2018 10:26 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Ron It almost looks like the bolt to stud is off center as it might be gauling causing pre-mature torq on the stud that can lead to failure, try grease paste on the threads next time, it might help. Jerry On Tue, Oct 2, 2018, 1:14 AM Ron Young wrote: > Anyone seen this before, the bolt on a shunt inside a Magnum inverter > snapped right off, other half inside the shunt. I was tightening it but I > don’t believe excessively. It appears to be crystallized. Magnum is > replacing the shunt but it’s my good luck that the job is 5 hours into a > remote backwater along a punishing road. > > > Ron Young > earthRight Solar - Solareagle.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Oct 7 21:02:15 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 19:02:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace Replacement? Message-ID: <989e81c4-b763-d50d-6a08-959813c6b01c@solarray.com> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; I have yet another customer whose 20+ yr old Trace SW inverter has flown off to inverter Nirvana.  I have replaced a few over the years and never quite solved the quandary of whether to replace the entire power board, or to retrofit a Magnum/ Outback in place of the SW, and keep the old Trace DC enclosure.  In this particular case, he has a pair of SW 4024s on an old Ananda power center. I'm considering taking the system to 48 v as well, since this will let us use the Magnum 4.4 kW inverters.  This however will also involve rewiring 20 yr old arrays of 50 and 75 watt modules...... What is the consensus on the best replacement practices on these legacy systems?  I have several out there with the clock ticking down.  My current idea is to just keep the Ananda and use Magnum's extension boxes to connect up the new MS 4448 inverters.  Its a tough call: I've replaced a few single SW installs and reused the Trace DC enclosure, and cursed working in those tiny boxes.  In other cases, I've put up a whole new system, but wondered if that was over kill too.  It seems to be a case of more field installation hours vs more equipment costs. Sure be handy, if someone made an SW replacement kit, there are still a bunch of them out there. As always, thanks for all your comments and ideas, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 10:22:13 2018 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 07:22:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace Replacement? In-Reply-To: <989e81c4-b763-d50d-6a08-959813c6b01c@solarray.com> References: <989e81c4-b763-d50d-6a08-959813c6b01c@solarray.com> Message-ID: I have one of the first batch of Ananda with the Heinemann breakers. I've used it with FX inverters and an XW inverter. Mating it up with the FX was difficult, I ended up with an 8x8 gutter between them, and 2" offsets on both sides. Using the conduit box on the XW was easy. I'd expect using the conduit box on the Magnum would be straightforward as well. If I were to try it with an FXR again I'd use an FW250 as a conduit box. But definitely take out the Ananda charge controls and convert to ones that match the new inverter. Unless you're adding more solar that can do a good finish charge then the on/off control for part of the array may be ok. Brad AEE Solar On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 6:02 PM Ray wrote: > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; > > I have yet another customer whose 20+ yr old Trace SW inverter has flown > off to inverter Nirvana. I have replaced a few over the years and never > quite solved the quandary of whether to replace the entire power board, > or to retrofit a Magnum/ Outback in place of the SW, and keep the old > Trace DC enclosure. In this particular case, he has a pair of SW 4024s > on an old Ananda power center. I'm considering taking the system to 48 v > as well, since this will let us use the Magnum 4.4 kW inverters. This > however will also involve rewiring 20 yr old arrays of 50 and 75 watt > modules...... > What is the consensus on the best replacement practices on these legacy > systems? I have several out there with the clock ticking down. My > current idea is to just keep the Ananda and use Magnum's extension boxes > to connect up the new MS 4448 inverters. Its a tough call: I've > replaced a few single SW installs and reused the Trace DC enclosure, and > cursed working in those tiny boxes. In other cases, I've put up a whole > new system, but wondered if that was over kill too. It seems to be a > case of more field installation hours vs more equipment costs. > > Sure be handy, if someone made an SW replacement kit, there are still a > bunch of them out there. > > As always, thanks for all your comments and ideas, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_1108.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 474095 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_2610 sm.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 63135 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Oct 8 10:23:00 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2018 07:23:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Trace_Replacement=3F?= In-Reply-To: <989e81c4-b763-d50d-6a08-959813c6b01c@solarray.com> References: <989e81c4-b763-d50d-6a08-959813c6b01c@solarray.com> Message-ID: I just use Outback and Schneider because their systems have web portals that I can monitor, troubleshoot, and advise on. I have never seen anything decent monitor wise from Magnum. Until 5 years ago they did not have a charge controller. If I am wrong about Magnum please post a link as I do not want to post false information. Thx. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 7 Oct 2018 19:02:15 -0600, Ray wrote: > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; > > I have yet another customer whose 20+ yr old Trace SW inverter has flown > off to inverter Nirvana.  I have replaced a few over the years and never > quite solved the quandary of whether to replace the entire power board, > or to retrofit a Magnum/ Outback in place of the SW, and keep the old > Trace DC enclosure.  In this particular case, he has a pair of SW 4024s > on an old Ananda power center. I'm considering taking the system to 48 v > as well, since this will let us use the Magnum 4.4 kW inverters.  This > however will also involve rewiring 20 yr old arrays of 50 and 75 watt > modules...... > What is the consensus on the best replacement practices on these legacy > systems?  I have several out there with the clock ticking down.  My > current idea is to just keep the Ananda and use Magnum's extension boxes > to connect up the new MS 4448 inverters.  Its a tough call: I've > replaced a few single SW installs and reused the Trace DC enclosure, and > cursed working in those tiny boxes.  In other cases, I've put up a whole > new system, but wondered if that was over kill too.  It seems to be a > case of more field installation hours vs more equipment costs. > > Sure be handy, if someone made an SW replacement kit, there are still a > bunch of them out there. > > As always, thanks for all your comments and ideas, -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 10:50:49 2018 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 07:50:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace Replacement? In-Reply-To: <989e81c4-b763-d50d-6a08-959813c6b01c@solarray.com> References: <989e81c4-b763-d50d-6a08-959813c6b01c@solarray.com> Message-ID: Replacing old SW’s has accounted for about half of my work load for the last two or three years. When my clients have limited means and a single SW4024, I install a MS4024 w/conduit box, and leave everything else intact. Often, when dealing with really remote sites, I can have the client send me some pictures of the “power wall” and I can make one trip out showing up with everything I need too make the swap in an few hours. My service truck is stocked for every contingency to do so. Dual inverters, I lean towards a pre-wired MS4024PAE Mini-Magnum power center. That’s a pretty quick swap too. When customers do have the means, or say it's is a new client who purchased a place with a legacy system, then I just start from scratch, In that case I specify Radians, either 4 or 8kws, because the Mate 3’s make my life so much easier. I get calls all the time from folks who have Magnums and ME-ARC controllers……….”How do I get back to %” Plus with the Mate 3, if these get wonky, I can have the client send me pictures of the “Events” so Iknow what were up against. Way more problems with Magnum reliability in the last few years too. The question I think about all the time is why is it that all my earlier systems and those installed by others do so well. I mean, I have built hundreds and hundreds of SW based systems with modest arrays with a great success rate. Long battery life and minimal equipment failure. Nowadays I feel like Im running around putting out fires and wasting my life on hold waiting for “tech support”. I almost never see ten years with FLA’s. I love it when I come across an Ananda power center, what a blast from the past. Michael > On Oct 7, 2018, at 6:02 PM, Ray wrote: > > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; > > I have yet another customer whose 20+ yr old Trace SW inverter has flown off to inverter Nirvana. I have replaced a few over the years and never quite solved the quandary of whether to replace the entire power board, or to retrofit a Magnum/ Outback in place of the SW, and keep the old Trace DC enclosure. In this particular case, he has a pair of SW 4024s on an old Ananda power center. I'm considering taking the system to 48 v as well, since this will let us use the Magnum 4.4 kW inverters. This however will also involve rewiring 20 yr old arrays of 50 and 75 watt modules...... > What is the consensus on the best replacement practices on these legacy systems? I have several out there with the clock ticking down. My current idea is to just keep the Ananda and use Magnum's extension boxes to connect up the new MS 4448 inverters. Its a tough call: I've replaced a few single SW installs and reused the Trace DC enclosure, and cursed working in those tiny boxes. In other cases, I've put up a whole new system, but wondered if that was over kill too. It seems to be a case of more field installation hours vs more equipment costs. > > Sure be handy, if someone made an SW replacement kit, there are still a bunch of them out there. > > As always, thanks for all your comments and ideas, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jj at aprsworld.com Mon Oct 8 11:12:44 2018 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 10:12:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace Replacement? In-Reply-To: References: <989e81c4-b763-d50d-6a08-959813c6b01c@solarray.com> Message-ID: Magnum has had online monitoring for many years now. I believe it was way before Outback and Xantrex. Here is one of my sites in Fairbanks, Alaska: http://data.magnumenergy.com/MW5009/ -James Jarvis On 10/8/2018 9:23 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > I just use Outback and Schneider because their systems have web portals > that I can monitor, troubleshoot, and advise on. I have never seen anything > decent monitor wise from Magnum. Until 5 years ago they did not have a > charge controller. If I am wrong about Magnum please post a link as I do > not want to post false information. Thx. From ray at solarray.com Mon Oct 8 11:43:42 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 09:43:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace Replacement? In-Reply-To: References: <989e81c4-b763-d50d-6a08-959813c6b01c@solarray.com> Message-ID: Yea, I almost always replace the on board controller on the Anandas.  On some I might keep a small original array on it, but I always have large controller with 3 stage PWM going. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/8/18 8:22 AM, Bradley Bassett wrote: > I have one of the first batch of Ananda with the Heinemann breakers. > I've used it with FX inverters and an XW inverter. Mating it up with > the FX was difficult, I ended up with an 8x8 gutter between them, and > 2" offsets on both sides. Using the conduit box on the XW was easy. > I'd expect using the conduit box on the Magnum would be > straightforward as well. If I were to try it with an FXR again I'd use > an FW250 as a conduit box. But definitely take out the Ananda charge > controls and convert to ones that match the new inverter. Unless > you're adding more solar that can do a good finish charge then the > on/off control for part of the array may be ok. > > Brad > AEE Solar > > On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 6:02 PM Ray > wrote: > > Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; > > I have yet another customer whose 20+ yr old Trace SW inverter has > flown > off to inverter Nirvana.  I have replaced a few over the years and > never > quite solved the quandary of whether to replace the entire power > board, > or to retrofit a Magnum/ Outback in place of the SW, and keep the old > Trace DC enclosure.  In this particular case, he has a pair of SW > 4024s > on an old Ananda power center. I'm considering taking the system > to 48 v > as well, since this will let us use the Magnum 4.4 kW inverters.  > This > however will also involve rewiring 20 yr old arrays of 50 and 75 watt > modules...... > What is the consensus on the best replacement practices on these > legacy > systems?  I have several out there with the clock ticking down.  My > current idea is to just keep the Ananda and use Magnum's extension > boxes > to connect up the new MS 4448 inverters.  Its a tough call: I've > replaced a few single SW installs and reused the Trace DC > enclosure, and > cursed working in those tiny boxes.  In other cases, I've put up a > whole > new system, but wondered if that was over kill too.  It seems to be a > case of more field installation hours vs more equipment costs. > > Sure be handy, if someone made an SW replacement kit, there are > still a > bunch of them out there. > > As always, thanks for all your comments and ideas, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Oct 8 11:57:06 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 09:57:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace Replacement? In-Reply-To: References: <989e81c4-b763-d50d-6a08-959813c6b01c@solarray.com> Message-ID: <96beaf99-c5f1-df65-ddfa-2fe8fbde0e8a@solarray.com> Latest news:  The SW inverters came back from the dead.  They rebooted everything several times, and they're working again. Once again 20 years out, the Trace proves why we built an industry around it.  We probably will replace them, but now we have a bit of time to plan it out.  Thanks everyone for the replies.  I'll keep you all posted on what we decide to do. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/8/18 8:50 AM, Michael Morningstar wrote: > Replacing old SW’s has accounted for about half of my work load for the last two or three years. When my clients have limited means and a single SW4024, I install a MS4024 w/conduit box, and leave everything else intact. Often, when dealing with really remote sites, I can have the client send me some pictures of the “power wall” and I can make one trip out showing up with everything I need too make the swap in an few hours. My service truck is stocked for every contingency to do so. > > Dual inverters, I lean towards a pre-wired MS4024PAE Mini-Magnum power center. That’s a pretty quick swap too. > > When customers do have the means, or say it's is a new client who purchased a place with a legacy system, then I just start from scratch, In that case I specify Radians, either 4 or 8kws, because the Mate 3’s make my life so much easier. I get calls all the time from folks who have Magnums and ME-ARC controllers……….”How do I get back to %” Plus with the Mate 3, if these get wonky, I can have the client send me pictures of the “Events” so Iknow what were up against. Way more problems with Magnum reliability in the last few years too. > > The question I think about all the time is why is it that all my earlier systems and those installed by others do so well. I mean, I have built hundreds and hundreds of SW based systems with modest arrays with a great success rate. Long battery life and minimal equipment failure. Nowadays I feel like Im running around putting out fires and wasting my life on hold waiting for “tech support”. I almost never see ten years with FLA’s. > > I love it when I come across an Ananda power center, what a blast from the past. > > Michael > >> On Oct 7, 2018, at 6:02 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; >> >> I have yet another customer whose 20+ yr old Trace SW inverter has flown off to inverter Nirvana. I have replaced a few over the years and never quite solved the quandary of whether to replace the entire power board, or to retrofit a Magnum/ Outback in place of the SW, and keep the old Trace DC enclosure. In this particular case, he has a pair of SW 4024s on an old Ananda power center. I'm considering taking the system to 48 v as well, since this will let us use the Magnum 4.4 kW inverters. This however will also involve rewiring 20 yr old arrays of 50 and 75 watt modules...... >> What is the consensus on the best replacement practices on these legacy systems? I have several out there with the clock ticking down. My current idea is to just keep the Ananda and use Magnum's extension boxes to connect up the new MS 4448 inverters. Its a tough call: I've replaced a few single SW installs and reused the Trace DC enclosure, and cursed working in those tiny boxes. In other cases, I've put up a whole new system, but wondered if that was over kill too. It seems to be a case of more field installation hours vs more equipment costs. >> >> Sure be handy, if someone made an SW replacement kit, there are still a bunch of them out there. >> >> As always, thanks for all your comments and ideas, >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From mick at abrahamsolar.com Mon Oct 8 11:57:26 2018 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 09:57:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace or Outback autotransformer: step down but source has no neutral Message-ID: Greetings, Wrenchies~ Below I've pasted a visual from the Trace T240 transformer product guide, circa 2000: [image: image.png] My client's 240vAC 60 hertz source circuit has the two hots but no neutral. They'd like to run some 120v tools & appliances, hence the autoformer. I see in the diagram that a neutral from the input side is not required, but: * In that event, can I ground the newly derived neutral without causing havoc? The main home where the 240v wires originate is about 150 feet away & the AC neutral is single point grounded there. Other cautions or caveats? Thanks in advance. The Wrench List is The Bomb~ Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 72162 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reellison at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 12:06:56 2018 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 12:06:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace Replacement? In-Reply-To: References: <989e81c4-b763-d50d-6a08-959813c6b01c@solarray.com> Message-ID: I think the reason the older systems lasted so long compared to the newer ones is load control and generally a large battery bank so they were not cycled to death I also suspect the newer inverters are not as “tough” for lack of a better description I have a customer with a rebuilt SW 4024 in the box because he was unsure how the magnum inverters would hold up ! They are now 10 and going strong I guess he can stop worrying now ! Just random thoughts, Bob ellison > On Oct 8, 2018, at 10:50 AM, Michael Morningstar wrote: > > Replacing old SW’s has accounted for about half of my work load for the last two or three years. When my clients have limited means and a single SW4024, I install a MS4024 w/conduit box, and leave everything else intact. Often, when dealing with really remote sites, I can have the client send me some pictures of the “power wall” and I can make one trip out showing up with everything I need too make the swap in an few hours. My service truck is stocked for every contingency to do so. > > Dual inverters, I lean towards a pre-wired MS4024PAE Mini-Magnum power center. That’s a pretty quick swap too. > > When customers do have the means, or say it's is a new client who purchased a place with a legacy system, then I just start from scratch, In that case I specify Radians, either 4 or 8kws, because the Mate 3’s make my life so much easier. I get calls all the time from folks who have Magnums and ME-ARC controllers……….”How do I get back to %” Plus with the Mate 3, if these get wonky, I can have the client send me pictures of the “Events” so Iknow what were up against. Way more problems with Magnum reliability in the last few years too. > > The question I think about all the time is why is it that all my earlier systems and those installed by others do so well. I mean, I have built hundreds and hundreds of SW based systems with modest arrays with a great success rate. Long battery life and minimal equipment failure. Nowadays I feel like Im running around putting out fires and wasting my life on hold waiting for “tech support”. I almost never see ten years with FLA’s. > > I love it when I come across an Ananda power center, what a blast from the past. > > Michael > >> On Oct 7, 2018, at 6:02 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; >> >> I have yet another customer whose 20+ yr old Trace SW inverter has flown off to inverter Nirvana. I have replaced a few over the years and never quite solved the quandary of whether to replace the entire power board, or to retrofit a Magnum/ Outback in place of the SW, and keep the old Trace DC enclosure. In this particular case, he has a pair of SW 4024s on an old Ananda power center. I'm considering taking the system to 48 v as well, since this will let us use the Magnum 4.4 kW inverters. This however will also involve rewiring 20 yr old arrays of 50 and 75 watt modules...... >> What is the consensus on the best replacement practices on these legacy systems? I have several out there with the clock ticking down. My current idea is to just keep the Ananda and use Magnum's extension boxes to connect up the new MS 4448 inverters. Its a tough call: I've replaced a few single SW installs and reused the Trace DC enclosure, and cursed working in those tiny boxes. In other cases, I've put up a whole new system, but wondered if that was over kill too. It seems to be a case of more field installation hours vs more equipment costs. >> >> Sure be handy, if someone made an SW replacement kit, there are still a bunch of them out there. >> >> As always, thanks for all your comments and ideas, >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Oct 8 12:43:52 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2018 09:43:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Trace_Replacement=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <989e81c4-b763-d50d-6a08-959813c6b01c@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi James, Thanks for the link. I did not see a solar charge controller on your link and since Magnum did not make one until recently I never looked further. Could this system have solar? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 8 Oct 2018 10:12:44 -0500, James Jefferson Jarvis wrote: > Magnum has had online monitoring for many years now. I believe it was > way before Outback and Xantrex. > > Here is one of my sites in Fairbanks, Alaska: > http://data.magnumenergy.com/MW5009/ > > -James Jarvis > > > On 10/8/2018 9:23 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> I just use Outback and Schneider because their systems have web portals >> that I can monitor, troubleshoot, and advise on. I have never seen >> anything >> decent monitor wise from Magnum. Until 5 years ago they did not have a >> charge controller. If I am wrong about Magnum please post a link as I do >> not want to post false information. Thx. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Oct 8 18:03:15 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2018 18:03:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surge arrestors on strings Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Do you use surge arrestors with multi MPPT input string inverters? Do you put a separate arrestor on each MPPT input? I find it sort of pricey using a Midnite Solar arrestor on each string, but have been doing that. Is there a less expensive approach that is effective? I believe the Midnite units are the best. Are they worth the expense? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Oct 8 22:37:47 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 20:37:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surge arrestors on strings In-Reply-To: <20181008220322.B75F41071B1@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20181008220322.B75F41071B1@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <50c7a8a6-0a86-90cf-0075-c5d755da1069@solarray.com> I believe you can use the SPD 300 AC on 2 strings, if PV neg is grounded.  You would connect the green to ground (or PV neg) and then connect the red to one string pos, and connect the black to the other string pos.  This would be limited to 300 v also.  I haven't tried that exact configuration, but I have used the 300 AC to protect both the AC in and AC out on 120 vac inverters.  I also believe you can use a 600 DC version, and wire as I mentioned, but the LEDs won't light. If you are using ungrounded inverters, then I think you would need an SPD for each string in order to protect both the pos and neg of each string, like you've been doing. Maybe someone from Midnite can clarify this. As far as it being worth it, I haven't had lightning related damage since I started using the Midnite SPDs, and I used to have system damage every year.  If you are not in lightning country, or the install is in a low spot with less likelihood of taking a hit, you might be able to skimp.  But for some of these off grid ridge top installs, I consider it a must. Some times I don't install one on the gen circuit, if its really close. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/8/18 4:03 PM, Drake wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Do you use surge arrestors with multi MPPT input string inverters? Do > you put a separate arrestor on each MPPT input? I find it sort of > pricey using a Midnite Solar arrestor on each string, but have been > doing that. Is there a less expensive approach that is effective? > > I believe the Midnite units are the best. Are they worth the expense? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Oct 8 23:19:31 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 21:19:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trickle Charging? Message-ID: Lots of questions this season..... I'm winterizing a cabin for a customer that will not be there for the next 8 months (summer use only). Inverter and loads will be off. The rooftop array will probably be covered with snow for extended periods of time, and he has a brand new 800 AH set of AGM batteries.  I've read that AGMs can handle sitting for longer periods of time, but my experience is that they are a bit finicky.  I'm planning on adding a small wall mounted array on a small Morningstar PWM controller that's sole purpose is to trickle charge the batteries and off set the self discharge in heavy snow.  What is the minimum size array needed? I've calculated self discharge rates from 2% to 5% /month, and I'm seeing a very small array would offset that.  Even at 5% monthly losses, and 4 hrs of sun/ day, I'm seeing a 10 watt array could meet that.  My current plan is a pair of 30 watt modules wired in series for the 24 v battery.  Is that too small? Or should I not even worry, because enough sun will creep through the snow to the main array? Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Oct 9 10:57:55 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2018 10:57:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trickle Charging? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have an AC coupled backup system at our house in S.E. Ohio. In the winter we have many cloudy days. We are using two 40 W Sunwise modules in series with a Morningstar PWM CC to maintain a 415 AH, 24 V set of Full River AGM batteries. We don't need to use the AC charger for around 1/2 the year. In the winter, we charge regularly from the grid. Colorado has a lot more winter sun that SE Ohio. If I did ours over again, I'd double the maintainer array. But we have many periods, of several days in a row, where it is so dingy that our main array produces almost nothing, with no snow cover. I've never seen these prolonged, low light conditions in Colorado. If the price difference for a larger maintainer array isn't too much, I'd likely go bigger, especially since your battery bank is twice as big. Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 11:19 PM 10/8/2018, you wrote: >Lots of questions this season..... I'm >winterizing a cabin for a customer that will not >be there for the next 8 months (summer use >only). Inverter and loads will be off. The >rooftop array will probably be covered with snow >for extended periods of time, and he has a brand >new 800 AH set of AGM batteries. I've read >that AGMs can handle sitting for longer periods >of time, but my experience is that they are a >bit finicky. I'm planning on adding a small >wall mounted array on a small Morningstar PWM >controller that's sole purpose is to trickle >charge the batteries and off set the self >discharge in heavy snow. What is the minimum >size array needed? I've calculated self >discharge rates from 2% to 5% /month, and I'm >seeing a very small array would offset >that. Even at 5% monthly losses, and 4 hrs of >sun/ day, I'm seeing a 10 watt array could meet >that. My current plan is a pair of 30 watt >modules wired in series for the 24 v >battery. Is that too small? Or should I not >even worry, because enough sun will creep >through the snow to the main array? Thanks, -- >Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or >update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Oct 9 11:26:37 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 11:26:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surge arrestors on strings In-Reply-To: <50c7a8a6-0a86-90cf-0075-c5d755da1069@solarray.com> References: <20181008220322.B75F41071B1@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <50c7a8a6-0a86-90cf-0075-c5d755da1069@solarray.com> Message-ID: I think something on the order of 90+% lightning strikes come from the utility feed, not the dc side. That has to be ignored if in a high strike area orgrid isolated. On 10/8/2018 10:37 PM, Ray wrote: > > I believe you can use the SPD 300 AC on 2 strings, if PV neg is > grounded.  You would connect the green to ground (or PV neg) and then > connect the red to one string pos, and connect the black to the other > string pos.  This would be limited to 300 v also.  I haven't tried > that exact configuration, but I have used the 300 AC to protect both > the AC in and AC out on 120 vac inverters.  I also believe you can use > a 600 DC version, and wire as I mentioned, but the LEDs won't light. > If you are using ungrounded inverters, then I think you would need an > SPD for each string in order to protect both the pos and neg of each > string, like you've been doing. > > Maybe someone from Midnite can clarify this. > > As far as it being worth it, I haven't had lightning related damage > since I started using the Midnite SPDs, and I used to have system > damage every year.  If you are not in lightning country, or the > install is in a low spot with less likelihood of taking a hit, you > might be able to skimp.  But for some of these off grid ridge top > installs, I consider it a must. Some times I don't install one on the > gen circuit, if its really close. > > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 10/8/18 4:03 PM, Drake wrote: >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Do you use surge arrestors with multi MPPT input string inverters? Do >> you put a separate arrestor on each MPPT input? I find it sort of >> pricey using a Midnite Solar arrestor on each string, but have been >> doing that. Is there a less expensive approach that is effective? >> >> I believe the Midnite units are the best. Are they worth the expense? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> /Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> /http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Oct 9 11:39:53 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 09:39:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trickle Charging? In-Reply-To: <20181009145803.8F353107089@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20181009145803.8F353107089@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I'm bumping it up to a pair of 50 watt modules, I don't want to go bigger because I need to fit them behind some shutters that will cover them in the summer.   To answer Bill's questions, the site is at 10,000 ft, about a 1:12 pitch, so its definitely going to pile up snow.  We had snow sitting this year there into May. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/9/18 8:57 AM, Drake wrote: > We have an AC coupled  backup system at our house in S.E. Ohio. In the > winter we have many cloudy days. We are using two 40 W Sunwise modules > in series with a Morningstar PWM CC to maintain a 415 AH, 24 V set of > Full River AGM batteries. We don't need to use the AC charger for > around 1/2 the year. In the winter, we charge regularly from the grid. > > Colorado has a _lot_ more winter sun that SE Ohio. If I did ours over > again, I'd double the maintainer array. But we have many periods, of > several days in a row, where it is so dingy that our main array > produces almost nothing, with no snow cover. I've never seen these > prolonged, low light conditions in Colorado. If the price difference > for a larger maintainer array isn't too much, I'd likely go bigger, > especially since your battery bank is twice as big. > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > At 11:19 PM 10/8/2018, you wrote: >> Lots of questions this season..... I'm winterizing a cabin for a >> customer that will not be there for the next 8 months (summer use >> only). Inverter and loads will be off. The rooftop array will >> probably be covered with snow for extended periods of time, and he >> has a brand new 800 AH set of AGM batteries. I've read that AGMs can >> handle sitting for longer periods of time, but my experience is that >> they are a bit finicky.  I'm planning on adding a small wall mounted >> array on a small Morningstar PWM controller that's sole purpose is to >> trickle charge the batteries and off set the self discharge in heavy >> snow.  What is the minimum size array needed? I've calculated self >> discharge rates from 2% to 5% /month, and I'm seeing a very small >> array would offset that.  Even at 5% monthly losses, and 4 hrs of >> sun/ day, I'm seeing a 10 watt array could meet that. My current >> plan is a pair of 30 watt modules wired in series for the 24 v >> battery.  Is that too small? Or should I not even worry, because >> enough sun will creep through the snow to the main array? Thanks, -- >> Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by >> Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> Check out or update >> participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Tue Oct 9 13:39:03 2018 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 10:39:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surge arrestors on strings In-Reply-To: References: <20181008220322.B75F41071B1@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <50c7a8a6-0a86-90cf-0075-c5d755da1069@solarray.com> Message-ID: For an inverter with two MPPT inputs, you will need to treat the negatives and positive lines separate unless the manufacturer says something else.  That means one  SPD per array unfortunately.  Negative and positive connect to separate leads of the SPD and then ground in the middle.  As both positive and negative PV lines rise together relative to ground, the SPD is supposed to clamp that rise to below the equipment's hi-pot voltage that they test to at the factory.  (i.e. common mode voltage rise) All wires except for ground (chassis) of the equipment are tied together and the hi-pot machine (sort of like a Megger ?) applies the high voltage between all those wires on one side and ground on the other to make sure the insulation doesn't break down inside the equipment. This hi-pot test goes for AC  utility input/output connections and DC from the PV input side. The SPD  has to clamp plus and minus and AC inputs to a lower voltage than this hipot rating but higher voltage than lines will see differentially in voltage.  Remember that in a 3-wire SPD, there is two sets of MOVs in series and the center is tied to ground.  If one MOV starts conducting at say, 500 volts DC then you can apply up to 1000 volts  between the hot leads.  Each plus and negative line can rise up to 500 volts from the lightning before they start to clamp.  The  bigger the lightning strikes effect, the more current will be applied to the MOVs though and the clamp voltage will rise somewhat.  That's why the SPD arrestor voltage should be well below the hi-pot voltage, whatever that is...  Hi-pot voltages are quite a bit higher than the operating voltage.  For example, All Classic CC's are tested to 2270 volts DC from hot lines to ground.  It's something like double the operating voltage plus 1000V and multiply by 1.414 for DC rating.....  I'm going off memory so don't quote me on that but something like that. I think that Ray has the right idea about short connections like from the local generator.  Battery also. Just apply SPDs to anything that goes outside like an antenna. boB On 10/9/2018 8:26 AM, cwarfel wrote: > > I think something on the order of 90+% lightning strikes come from the > utility feed, not the dc side. That has to be ignored if in a high > strike area orgrid isolated. > > > On 10/8/2018 10:37 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> I believe you can use the SPD 300 AC on 2 strings, if PV neg is >> grounded.  You would connect the green to ground (or PV neg) and then >> connect the red to one string pos, and connect the black to the other >> string pos.  This would be limited to 300 v also.  I haven't tried >> that exact configuration, but I have used the 300 AC to protect both >> the AC in and AC out on 120 vac inverters.  I also believe you can >> use a 600 DC version, and wire as I mentioned, but the LEDs won't >> light. If you are using ungrounded inverters, then I think you would >> need an SPD for each string in order to protect both the pos and neg >> of each string, like you've been doing. >> >> Maybe someone from Midnite can clarify this. >> >> As far as it being worth it, I haven't had lightning related damage >> since I started using the Midnite SPDs, and I used to have system >> damage every year.  If you are not in lightning country, or the >> install is in a low spot with less likelihood of taking a hit, you >> might be able to skimp.  But for some of these off grid ridge top >> installs, I consider it a must. Some times I don't install one on the >> gen circuit, if its really close. >> >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 10/8/18 4:03 PM, Drake wrote: >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> Do you use surge arrestors with multi MPPT input string inverters? >>> Do you put a separate arrestor on each MPPT input? I find it sort of >>> pricey using a Midnite Solar arrestor on each string, but have been >>> doing that. Is there a less expensive approach that is effective? >>> >>> I believe the Midnite units are the best. Are they worth the expense? >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> >>> Drake Chamberlin >>> /Athens Electric LLC >>> OH License 44810 >>> CO License 3773 >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>> 740-448-7328 >>> /http://athens-electric.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > -- > >          Christopher Warfel, PE >        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                (401)466-8978 > > EEI logo > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Oct 9 17:02:32 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2018 17:02:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surge arrestors on strings In-Reply-To: References: <20181008220322.B75F41071B1@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <50c7a8a6-0a86-90cf-0075-c5d755da1069@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi boB, I will keep putting an SPD on each string and on the AC line. Sometimes my systems end up with a lot of blue lights hanging from a wiring gutter! Have you ever heard of any problems using the Midnite SPDs with Sunny Boy TL series inverters? So far, I don't think I've had a problem, although one TL-22, on a large metal roof, had arc fault protector trips. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ At 01:39 PM 10/9/2018, you wrote: >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="------------98C0DCEF93B9ECF248E0580B" >Content-Language: en-US > > >For an inverter with two MPPT inputs, you will need to treat the >negatives and positive lines separate unless >the manufacturer says something else. That means one SPD per array >unfortunately. Negative and positive connect >to separate leads of the SPD and then ground in the middle. As both >positive and negative PV lines rise together >relative to ground, the SPD is supposed to clamp that rise to below >the equipment's hi-pot voltage that they test >to at the factory. (i.e. common mode voltage rise) All wires except >for ground (chassis) of the equipment are tied >together and the hi-pot machine (sort of like a Megger ?) applies >the high voltage between all those wires on one >side and ground on the other to make sure the insulation doesn't >break down inside the equipment. >This hi-pot test goes for AC utility input/output connections and >DC from the PV input side. > >The SPD has to clamp plus and minus and AC inputs to a lower >voltage than this hipot rating but higher voltage >than lines will see differentially in voltage. Remember that in a >3-wire SPD, there is two sets of MOVs in series and >the center is tied to ground. If one MOV starts conducting at say, >500 volts DC then you can apply up to 1000 >volts between the hot leads. Each plus and negative line can rise >up to 500 volts from the lightning before they >start to clamp. The bigger the lightning strikes effect, the more >current will be applied to the MOVs though and >the clamp voltage will rise somewhat. That's why the SPD arrestor >voltage should be well below the hi-pot voltage, >whatever that is... Hi-pot voltages are quite a bit higher than the >operating voltage. For example, All Classic CC's >are tested to 2270 volts DC from hot lines to ground. It's >something like double the operating voltage plus 1000V >and multiply by 1.414 for DC rating..... I'm going off memory so >don't quote me on that but something like that. > >I think that Ray has the right idea about short connections like >from the local generator. Battery also. >Just apply SPDs to anything that goes outside like an antenna. > >boB > > >On 10/9/2018 8:26 AM, cwarfel wrote: >> >>I think something on the order of 90+% lightning strikes come from >>the utility feed, not the dc side. That has to be ignored if in a >>high strike area or grid isolated. >> >>On 10/8/2018 10:37 PM, Ray wrote: >>> >>>I believe you can use the SPD 300 AC on 2 strings, if PV neg is >>>grounded. You would connect the green to ground (or PV neg) and >>>then connect the red to one string pos, and connect the black to >>>the other string pos. This would be limited to 300 v also. I >>>haven't tried that exact configuration, but I have used the 300 AC >>>to protect both the AC in and AC out on 120 vac inverters. I also >>>believe you can use a 600 DC version, and wire as I mentioned, but >>>the LEDs won't light. If you are using ungrounded inverters, then >>>I think you would need an SPD for each string in order to protect >>>both the pos and neg of each string, like you've been doing. >>> >>>Maybe someone from Midnite can clarify this. >>> >>>As far as it being worth it, I haven't had lightning related >>>damage since I started using the Midnite SPDs, and I used to have >>>system damage every year. If you are not in lightning country, or >>>the install is in a low spot with less likelihood of taking a hit, >>>you might be able to skimp. But for some of these off grid ridge >>>top installs, I consider it a must. Some times I don't install one >>>on the gen circuit, if its really close. >>> >>> >>> >>>Ray Walters >>>Remote Solar >>>303 505-8760On 10/8/18 4:03 PM, Drake wrote: >>>>Hello Wrenches, >>>> >>>>Do you use surge arrestors with multi MPPT input string >>>>inverters? Do you put a separate arrestor on each MPPT input? I >>>>find it sort of pricey using a Midnite Solar arrestor on each >>>>string, but have been doing that. Is there a less expensive >>>>approach that is effective? >>>> >>>>I believe the Midnite units are the best. Are they worth the expense? >>>> >>>>Thank you, >>>> >>>>Drake >>>> >>>> >>>>Drake Chamberlin >>>>Athens Electric LLC >>>>OH License 44810 >>>>CO License 3773 >>>>NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>>>740-448-7328 >>>>http://athens-electric.com/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>>List Address: >>>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>>List-Archive: >>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>>List rules & etiquette: >>>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>>List Address: >>>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>>Change listserver email address & settings: >>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>>List-Archive: >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>>List rules & etiquette: >>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>>Check out or update participant bios: >>>www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >>-- >> >> Christopher Warfel, PE >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> (401)466-8978 >> >> >>EEI logo >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List-Archive: >>http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2f77d532.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Oct 9 18:05:35 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 15:05:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surge arrestors on strings In-Reply-To: <20181009210241.61564106067@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20181008220322.B75F41071B1@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <50c7a8a6-0a86-90cf-0075-c5d755da1069@solarray.com> <20181009210241.61564106067@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <326c2c4b-b51f-1004-0a14-fc6cf599ee09@psln.com> boB,             To add to Drake's  wonderings, I've had a few SMA TL-40 inverters trip with an AFCI fault.  Significant hassle to get onsite and deal with it. Some with metal roofs some without, may have been lightening in the area. Bill On 10/9/2018 2:02 PM, Drake wrote: > Hi boB, > > I will keep putting an SPD on each string and on the AC line. > Sometimes my systems end up with a lot of blue lights hanging from a > wiring gutter! > > Have you ever heard of any problems using the Midnite SPDs with Sunny > Boy TL series inverters? So far, I don't think I've had a problem, > although one TL-22, on a large metal roof, had arc fault protector trips. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > > > > At 01:39 PM 10/9/2018, you wrote: >> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >>  boundary="------------98C0DCEF93B9ECF248E0580B" >> Content-Language: en-US >> >> >> For an inverter with two MPPT inputs, you will need to treat the >> negatives and positive lines separate unless >> the manufacturer says something else.  That means one  SPD per array >> unfortunately.  Negative and positive connect >> to separate leads of the SPD and then ground in the middle.  As both >> positive and negative PV lines rise together >> relative to ground, the SPD is supposed to clamp that rise to below >> the equipment's hi-pot voltage that they test >> to at the factory.  (i.e. common mode voltage rise) All wires except >> for ground (chassis) of the equipment are tied >> together and the hi-pot machine (sort of like a Megger ?) applies the >> high voltage between all those wires on one >> side and ground on the other to make sure the insulation doesn't >> break down inside the equipment. >> This hi-pot test goes for AC  utility input/output connections and DC >> from the PV input side. >> >> The SPD  has to clamp plus and minus and AC inputs to a lower voltage >> than this hipot rating but higher voltage >> than lines will see differentially in voltage.  Remember that in a >> 3-wire SPD, there is two sets of MOVs in series and >> the center is tied to ground.  If one MOV starts conducting at say, >> 500 volts DC then you can apply up to 1000 >> volts  between the hot leads.  Each plus and negative line can rise >> up to 500 volts from the lightning before they >> start to clamp.  The  bigger the lightning strikes effect, the more >> current will be applied to the MOVs though and >> the clamp voltage will rise somewhat.  That's why the SPD arrestor >> voltage should be well below the hi-pot voltage, >> whatever that is...  Hi-pot voltages are quite a bit higher than the >> operating voltage.  For example, All Classic CC's >> are tested to 2270 volts DC from hot lines to ground.  It's something >> like double the operating voltage plus 1000V >> and multiply by 1.414 for DC rating.....  I'm going off memory so >> don't quote me on that but something like that. >> >> I think that Ray has the right idea about short connections like from >> the local generator.  Battery also. >> Just apply SPDs to anything that goes outside like an antenna. >> >> boB >> >> >> On 10/9/2018 8:26 AM, cwarfel wrote: >>> >>> I think something on the order of 90+% lightning strikes come from >>> the utility feed, not the dc side. That has to be ignored if in a >>> high strike area or grid isolated. >>> >>> On 10/8/2018 10:37 PM, Ray wrote: >>>> >>>> I believe you can use the SPD 300 AC on 2 strings, if PV neg is >>>> grounded.  You would connect the green to ground (or PV neg) and >>>> then connect the red to one string pos, and connect the black to >>>> the other string pos.  This would be limited to 300 v also.  I >>>> haven't tried that exact configuration, but I have used the 300 AC >>>> to protect both the AC in and AC out on 120 vac inverters.  I also >>>> believe you can use a 600 DC version, and wire as I mentioned, but >>>> the LEDs won't light. If you are using ungrounded inverters, then I >>>> think you would need an SPD for each string in order to protect >>>> both the pos and neg of each string, like you've been doing. >>>> >>>> Maybe someone from Midnite can clarify this. >>>> >>>> As far as it being worth it, I haven't had lightning related damage >>>> since I started using the Midnite SPDs, and I used to have system >>>> damage every year.  If you are not in lightning country, or the >>>> install is in a low spot with less likelihood of taking a hit, you >>>> might be able to skimp.  But for some of these off grid ridge top >>>> installs, I consider it a must. Some times I don't install one on >>>> the gen circuit, if its really close. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> On 10/8/18 4:03 PM, Drake wrote: >>>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> Do you use surge arrestors with multi MPPT input string inverters? >>>>> Do you put a separate arrestor on each MPPT input? I find it sort >>>>> of pricey using a Midnite Solar arrestor on each string, but have >>>>> been doing that. Is there a less expensive approach that is >>>>> effective? >>>>> >>>>> I believe the Midnite units are the best. Are they worth the expense? >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> >>>>> Drake >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Drake Chamberlin >>>>> /Athens Electric LLC >>>>> OH License 44810 >>>>> CO License 3773 >>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >>>>> 740-448-7328 >>>>> /http://athens-electric.com/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: >>>>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List-Archive: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: >>>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List-Archive: >>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>>          Christopher Warfel, PE >>>        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>> (401)466-8978 >>> >>> EEI logo >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: >>> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2f77d532.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Oct 9 18:10:25 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2018 15:10:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surge arrestors on strings In-Reply-To: <20181009210239.A28B5105B2D@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20181008220322.B75F41071B1@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <50c7a8a6-0a86-90cf-0075-c5d755da1069@solarray.com> <20181009210239.A28B5105B2D@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: We have been using Midnite SPD's since they came out. The one suggestion I have is the light is too intense. I have clients who have covered the SPD's in tape to keep the light from attracting small flying insects to the electronics area. Some places just have too many bugs :( The blue seems to bring them. I saw an inverter fan filter that was an 1/8 of an inch thick with gnats. Fly paper will help but the battery circuit and AC panel SPD's need some help here. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 09 Oct 2018 17:02:32 -0400, Drake wrote: Hi boB, I will keep putting an SPD on each string and on the AC line. Sometimes my systems end up with a lot of blue lights hanging from a wiring gutter! Have you ever heard of any problems using the Midnite SPDs with Sunny Boy TL series inverters? So far, I don't think I've had a problem, although one TL-22, on a large metal roof, had arc fault protector trips. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ [3] At 01:39 PM 10/9/2018, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------98C0DCEF93B9ECF248E0580B" Content-Language: en-US For an inverter with two MPPT inputs, you will need to treat the negatives and positive lines separate unless the manufacturer says something else. That means one SPD per array unfortunately. Negative and positive connect to separate leads of the SPD and then ground in the middle. As both positive and negative PV lines rise together relative to ground, the SPD is supposed to clamp that rise to below the equipment's hi-pot voltage that they test to at the factory. (i.e. common mode voltage rise) All wires except for ground (chassis) of the equipment are tied together and the hi-pot machine (sort of like a Megger ?) applies the high voltage between all those wires on one side and ground on the other to make sure the insulation doesn't break down inside the equipment. This hi-pot test goes for AC utility input/output connections and DC from the PV input side. The SPD has to clamp plus and minus and AC inputs to a lower voltage than this hipot rating but higher voltage than lines will see differentially in voltage. Remember that in a 3-wire SPD, there is two sets of MOVs in series and the center is tied to ground. If one MOV starts conducting at say, 500 volts DC then you can apply up to 1000 volts between the hot leads. Each plus and negative line can rise up to 500 volts from the lightning before they start to clamp. The bigger the lightning strikes effect, the more current will be applied to the MOVs though and the clamp voltage will rise somewhat. That's why the SPD arrestor voltage should be well below the hi-pot voltage, whatever that is... Hi-pot voltages are quite a bit higher than the operating voltage. For example, All Classic CC's are tested to 2270 volts DC from hot lines to ground. It's something like double the operating voltage plus 1000V and multiply by 1.414 for DC rating..... I'm going off memory so don't quote me on that but something like that. I think that Ray has the right idea about short connections like from the local generator. Battery also. Just apply SPDs to anything that goes outside like an antenna. boB On 10/9/2018 8:26 AM, cwarfel wrote: I think something on the order of 90+% lightning strikes come from the utility feed, not the dc side. That has to be ignored if in a high strike area or grid isolated. On 10/8/2018 10:37 PM, Ray wrote: I believe you can use the SPD 300 AC on 2 strings, if PV neg is grounded. You would connect the green to ground (or PV neg) and then connect the red to one string pos, and connect the black to the other string pos. This would be limited to 300 v also. I haven't tried that exact configuration, but I have used the 300 AC to protect both the AC in and AC out on 120 vac inverters. I also believe you can use a 600 DC version, and wire as I mentioned, but the LEDs won't light. If you are using ungrounded inverters, then I think you would need an SPD for each string in order to protect both the pos and neg of each string, like you've been doing. Maybe someone from Midnite can clarify this. As far as it being worth it, I haven't had lightning related damage since I started using the Midnite SPDs, and I used to have system damage every year. If you are not in lightning country, or the install is in a low spot with less likelihood of taking a hit, you might be able to skimp. But for some of these off grid ridge top installs, I consider it a must. Some times I don't install one on the gen circuit, if its really close. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/8/18 4:03 PM, Drake wrote: Hello Wrenches, Do you use surge arrestors with multi MPPT input string inverters? Do you put a separate arrestor on each MPPT input? I find it sort of pricey using a Midnite Solar arrestor on each string, but have been doing that. Is there a less expensive approach that is effective? I believe the Midnite units are the best. Are they worth the expense? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ [4] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules "> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules "> -- Christopher Warfel, PE ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 (401)466-8978 [5] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules "> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [7] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://athens-electric.com/ [4] http://athens-electric.com/ [5] http://entech-engineering.com [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2f77d532.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 18:57:24 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 16:57:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace Replacement? In-Reply-To: <96beaf99-c5f1-df65-ddfa-2fe8fbde0e8a@solarray.com> References: <989e81c4-b763-d50d-6a08-959813c6b01c@solarray.com> <96beaf99-c5f1-df65-ddfa-2fe8fbde0e8a@solarray.com> Message-ID: All my current Trace SW customers are still functioning normally off the grid. I think we have a couple brothers to thank for that! One helluva inverter. My more remote off grid clients (including me) can't do online monitoring because the satellite internet is such a big load 24/7. I am experimenting with Packet Radio and Arduino into an APRS web node locally. I like OpticsRE, but if the internet cnx is squirrely, as so often in remote areas, it goes offline a lot. And the data kernalization is really coarse, need to offload from the SD card logger to get what I need, and that's a 5 hour drive. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP PV Associate 970.672.4342 On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 9:57 AM Ray wrote: > Latest news: The SW inverters came back from the dead. They rebooted > everything several times, and they're working again. Once again 20 years > out, the Trace proves why we built an industry around it. We probably > will replace them, but now we have a bit of time to plan it out. Thanks > everyone for the replies. I'll keep you all posted on what we decide to > do. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 10/8/18 8:50 AM, Michael Morningstar wrote: > > Replacing old SW’s has accounted for about half of my work load for the > last two or three years. When my clients have limited means and a single > SW4024, I install a MS4024 w/conduit box, and leave everything else intact. > Often, when dealing with really remote sites, I can have the client send me > some pictures of the “power wall” and I can make one trip out showing up > with everything I need too make the swap in an few hours. My service truck > is stocked for every contingency to do so. > > > > Dual inverters, I lean towards a pre-wired MS4024PAE Mini-Magnum power > center. That’s a pretty quick swap too. > > > > When customers do have the means, or say it's is a new client who > purchased a place with a legacy system, then I just start from scratch, In > that case I specify Radians, either 4 or 8kws, because the Mate 3’s make my > life so much easier. I get calls all the time from folks who have Magnums > and ME-ARC controllers……….”How do I get back to %” Plus with the Mate 3, if > these get wonky, I can have the client send me pictures of the “Events” so > Iknow what were up against. Way more problems with Magnum reliability in > the last few years too. > > > > The question I think about all the time is why is it that all my earlier > systems and those installed by others do so well. I mean, I have built > hundreds and hundreds of SW based systems with modest arrays with a great > success rate. Long battery life and minimal equipment failure. Nowadays I > feel like Im running around putting out fires and wasting my life on hold > waiting for “tech support”. I almost never see ten years with FLA’s. > > > > I love it when I come across an Ananda power center, what a blast from > the past. > > > > Michael > > > >> On Oct 7, 2018, at 6:02 PM, Ray wrote: > >> > >> Greetings Esteemed Wrenches; > >> > >> I have yet another customer whose 20+ yr old Trace SW inverter has > flown off to inverter Nirvana. I have replaced a few over the years and > never quite solved the quandary of whether to replace the entire power > board, or to retrofit a Magnum/ Outback in place of the SW, and keep the > old Trace DC enclosure. In this particular case, he has a pair of SW 4024s > on an old Ananda power center. I'm considering taking the system to 48 v as > well, since this will let us use the Magnum 4.4 kW inverters. This however > will also involve rewiring 20 yr old arrays of 50 and 75 watt modules...... > >> What is the consensus on the best replacement practices on these legacy > systems? I have several out there with the clock ticking down. My current > idea is to just keep the Ananda and use Magnum's extension boxes to connect > up the new MS 4448 inverters. Its a tough call: I've replaced a few single > SW installs and reused the Trace DC enclosure, and cursed working in those > tiny boxes. In other cases, I've put up a whole new system, but wondered > if that was over kill too. It seems to be a case of more field > installation hours vs more equipment costs. > >> > >> Sure be handy, if someone made an SW replacement kit, there are still a > bunch of them out there. > >> > >> As always, thanks for all your comments and ideas, > >> > >> -- > >> Ray Walters > >> Remote Solar > >> 303 505-8760 > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Wed Oct 10 13:05:49 2018 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 10:05:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surge arrestors on strings In-Reply-To: References: <20181008220322.B75F41071B1@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <50c7a8a6-0a86-90cf-0075-c5d755da1069@solarray.com> <20181009210239.A28B5105B2D@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: The SPD-600 is evidently the one to use on the SMA TL inverters. In older grounded PV systems, if the negative or positive is grounded directly to ground, then you could get by without an SPD connected to that grounded conductor because it is, well, already grounded and that line will rise in voltage along with the ground voltage from the strike.  However, if this grounded PV conductor  is connected through one of the r ground fault interrupters that has a 1/2 amp or slightly higher ground bonding connection, (not permanently bonded),  like the Classic or MPPT-60 and some other controllers with internal GFIs then I would think that a separate SPD line be used for positive and negative PV lines on that array. We don't want that ground bond to open on that line and risk internal arcing in the equipment. As for arc faults, SPDs are a passive type protector and should not make any noise that might be interpreted by the sensor as arcing. Lightning itself may very well be interpreted as an arc.  I think that the Bird-House system which has a switcher supply up-stairs in the Bird-Next might have been an arc fault culprit for some TL inverters.  Sometimes it is hard for a AF detector to tell the difference.  Hopefully they are better now. "I have clients who have covered the SPD's in tape to keep the light from attracting small flying insects to the electronics area. " I hear you there, Dave !  We are working on being able to coordinate the lightning strike with the insects so that the SPD also works as a bug zapper !    :) :-) Just kidding... boB On 10/9/2018 3:10 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > We have been using Midnite SPD's since they came out. The one > suggestion I have is the light is too intense. I have clients who have > covered the SPD's in tape to keep the light from attracting small > flying insects to the electronics area. Some places just have too many > bugs :( The blue seems to bring them. I saw an inverter fan filter > that was an 1/8 of an inch thick with gnats. > > Fly paper will help but the battery circuit and AC panel SPD's need > some help here. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > " boB,             To add to Drake's  wonderings, I've had a few SMA TL-40 inverters trip with an AFCI fault.  Significant hassle to get onsite and deal with it. Some with metal roofs some without, may have been lightening in the area. Bill " > On Tue, 09 Oct 2018 17:02:32 -0400, Drake > wrote: > >> Hi boB, >> >> I will keep putting an SPD on each string and on the AC line. >> Sometimes my systems end up with a lot of blue lights hanging from a >> wiring gutter! >> >> Have you ever heard of any problems using the Midnite SPDs with Sunny >> Boy TL series inverters? So far, I don't think I've had a problem, >> although one TL-22, on a large metal roof, had arc fault protector >> trips. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> /Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> /http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> >> At 01:39 PM 10/9/2018, you wrote: >> >> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >>  boundary="------------98C0DCEF93B9ECF248E0580B" >> Content-Language: en-US >> >> >> For an inverter with two MPPT inputs, you will need to treat the >> negatives and positive lines separate unless >> the manufacturer says something else.  That means one  SPD per >> array unfortunately.  Negative and positive connect >> to separate leads of the SPD and then ground in the middle. As >> both positive and negative PV lines rise together >> relative to ground, the SPD is supposed to clamp that rise to >> below the equipment's hi-pot voltage that they test >> to at the factory.  (i.e. common mode voltage rise) All wires >> except for ground (chassis) of the equipment are tied >> together and the hi-pot machine (sort of like a Megger ?) applies >> the high voltage between all those wires on one >> side and ground on the other to make sure the insulation doesn't >> break down inside the equipment. >> This hi-pot test goes for AC  utility input/output connections >> and DC from the PV input side. >> >> The SPD  has to clamp plus and minus and AC inputs to a lower >> voltage than this hipot rating but higher voltage >> than lines will see differentially in voltage.  Remember that in >> a 3-wire SPD, there is two sets of MOVs in series and >> the center is tied to ground.  If one MOV starts conducting at >> say, 500 volts DC then you can apply up to 1000 >> volts  between the hot leads.  Each plus and negative line can >> rise up to 500 volts from the lightning before they >> start to clamp.  The  bigger the lightning strikes effect, the >> more current will be applied to the MOVs though and >> the clamp voltage will rise somewhat.  That's why the SPD >> arrestor voltage should be well below the hi-pot voltage, >> whatever that is...  Hi-pot voltages are quite a bit higher than >> the operating voltage.  For example, All Classic CC's >> are tested to 2270 volts DC from hot lines to ground.  It's >> something like double the operating voltage plus 1000V >> and multiply by 1.414 for DC rating.....  I'm going off memory so >> don't quote me on that but something like that. >> >> I think that Ray has the right idea about short connections like >> from the local generator.  Battery also. >> Just apply SPDs to anything that goes outside like an antenna. >> >> boB >> >> >> On 10/9/2018 8:26 AM, cwarfel wrote: >> >> >> I think something on the order of 90+% lightning strikes come >> from the utility feed, not the dc side. That has to be >> ignored if in a high strike area or grid isolated. >> >> On 10/8/2018 10:37 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> >> I believe you can use the SPD 300 AC on 2 strings, if PV >> neg is grounded.  You would connect the green to ground >> (or PV neg) and then connect the red to one string pos, >> and connect the black to the other string pos.  This >> would be limited to 300 v also.  I haven't tried that >> exact configuration, but I have used the 300 AC to >> protect both the AC in and AC out on 120 vac inverters.  >> I also believe you can use a 600 DC version, and wire as >> I mentioned, but the LEDs won't light. If you are using >> ungrounded inverters, then I think you would need an SPD >> for each string in order to protect both the pos and neg >> of each string, like you've been doing. >> >> Maybe someone from Midnite can clarify this. >> >> As far as it being worth it, I haven't had lightning >> related damage since I started using the Midnite SPDs, >> and I used to have system damage every year.  If you are >> not in lightning country, or the install is in a low spot >> with less likelihood of taking a hit, you might be able >> to skimp.  But for some of these off grid ridge top >> installs, I consider it a must. Some times I don't >> install one on the gen circuit, if its really close. >> >> >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 10/8/18 4:03 PM, Drake wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Do you use surge arrestors with multi MPPT input >> string inverters? Do you put a separate arrestor on >> each MPPT input? I find it sort of pricey using a >> Midnite Solar arrestor on each string, but have been >> doing that. Is there a less expensive approach that >> is effective? >> >> I believe the Midnite units are the best. Are they >> worth the expense? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> /Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> /http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: >> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: >> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >>          Christopher Warfel, PE >>        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>                (401)466-8978 >> >> EEI logo >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: >> RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2f77d532.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Dana at solarwork.com Wed Oct 10 19:51:37 2018 From: Dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 16:51:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown Message-ID: <009001d460f4$2f69b310$8e3d1930$@com> My learned fellow Sparkies, I have at home off-grid Radian with Mate 3 monitor. Periodically & randomly my Mate 3 blanks out and requires a reboot (un-plug / re-plug). While this is not such a big deal to address, the total loss of ALL the performance & usage data is really concerning in the event that I need the data for a T/S. I have not called OB as there is no cell service at or near the system and to do so is a huge time killer back & forth & waiting to check again. I am convinced the brain trust here is the answer. Has anyone else experienced this? Any remedial action to correct this issue? Let me know & thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel NABCEP # 051112-136 Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Wed Oct 10 20:15:33 2018 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 00:15:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown In-Reply-To: <009001d460f4$2f69b310$8e3d1930$@com> References: <009001d460f4$2f69b310$8e3d1930$@com> Message-ID: Try a firmware update if you have not already. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dana Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 7:51:37 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown My learned fellow Sparkies, I have at home off-grid Radian with Mate 3 monitor. Periodically & randomly my Mate 3 blanks out and requires a reboot (un-plug / re-plug). While this is not such a big deal to address, the total loss of ALL the performance & usage data is really concerning in the event that I need the data for a T/S. I have not called OB as there is no cell service at or near the system and to do so is a huge time killer back & forth & waiting to check again. I am convinced the brain trust here is the answer. Has anyone else experienced this? Any remedial action to correct this issue? Let me know & thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel NABCEP # 051112-136 Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Oct 10 20:23:48 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 18:23:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown In-Reply-To: <009001d460f4$2f69b310$8e3d1930$@com> References: <009001d460f4$2f69b310$8e3d1930$@com> Message-ID: Possible it could be the connectors.  Maybe try switching the cables, and/ or clean the ports with contact cleaner.  Also check in the ports that all the little springy pin things ( that's official terminology). are all up at the same angle.  I've seen those get bent sometimes. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/10/18 5:51 PM, Dana wrote: > > My learned fellow Sparkies, > > I have at home off-grid Radian with Mate 3 monitor. Periodically & > randomly my Mate 3 blanks out and requires a reboot (un-plug / > re-plug). While this is not such a big deal to address, the total loss > of ALL the performance & usage data is really concerning in the event > that I need the data for a T/S. > > I have not called OB as there is no cell service at or near the system > and to do so is a huge time killer back & forth & waiting to check > again. I am convinced the brain trust here is the answer. > > Has anyone else experienced this? > > Any remedial action to correct this issue? > > Let me know & thanks. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel                                           NABCEP # 051112-136 > > Cell -**208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com > > > Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz > > ID PV Contractor - # 028765 -         ID PV Electrician # 028374 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Oct 10 20:05:33 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 17:05:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown In-Reply-To: <009001d460f4$2f69b310$8e3d1930$@com> References: <009001d460f4$2f69b310$8e3d1930$@com> Message-ID: <5e24b971da3acd2f84d6fe1f5fd160a1@127.0.0.1> Dana, Are you updated on all the firmware? I would call Outback, get a case number and then e-mail. I say this but I know what you mean.... One of the nice things about the Schneider combox based systems is the system gets a re-boot every night at 3:05 am and often solves weird issues. It also logs everything nicely. The inverter (XW border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> My learned fellow Sparkies, I have at home off-grid Radian with Mate 3 monitor. Periodically & randomly my Mate 3 blanks out and requires a reboot (un-plug / re-plug). While this is not such a big deal to address, the total loss of ALL the performance "> I have not called OB as there is no cell service at or near the system and to do so is a huge time killer back & forth "> Has anyone else experienced this? Any remedial action to correct this issue? Let me know "> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel NABCEP # 051112-136 Cell -208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com [1] Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz [2] ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" Please consider the environment before printing this email. -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] mailto:dana at solarwork.com [2] http://www.solarwork.biz [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 20:36:05 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 17:36:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown In-Reply-To: <009001d460f4$2f69b310$8e3d1930$@com> References: <009001d460f4$2f69b310$8e3d1930$@com> Message-ID: <6682216F-DAC9-4157-A96D-4D2FC44CDD67@gmail.com> Hi Dana, If you look at the graphs, are they smooth or really kind of unclear ? How often do you clear the internal data? The mate 3 has a fatal flaw. Th internal data will over write code once memory is full. One indicator is locking up, another is the graphs looking unclear. It’s recommended to clear it at least every 6 months. And even with current firmware and clearing memory, I still see it happen. Jay > On Oct 10, 2018, at 4:51 PM, Dana wrote: > > My learned fellow Sparkies, > > I have at home off-grid Radian with Mate 3 monitor. Periodically & randomly my Mate 3 blanks out and requires a reboot (un-plug / re-plug). While this is not such a big deal to address, the total loss of ALL the performance & usage data is really concerning in the event that I need the data for a T/S. > > I have not called OB as there is no cell service at or near the system and to do so is a huge time killer back & forth & waiting to check again. I am convinced the brain trust here is the answer. > > Has anyone else experienced this? > Any remedial action to correct this issue? > > Let me know & thanks. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel NABCEP # 051112-136 > Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com > Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz > ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374 > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 07:20:46 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 07:20:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown In-Reply-To: <6682216F-DAC9-4157-A96D-4D2FC44CDD67@gmail.com> References: <009001d460f4$2f69b310$8e3d1930$@com> <6682216F-DAC9-4157-A96D-4D2FC44CDD67@gmail.com> Message-ID: Outback has been good at sending a crossover replacement, meaning the new one arrives then you send back the old one. The MATE3 has problems, I have replaced one twice. On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:30 PM Jay wrote: > Hi Dana, > > If you look at the graphs, are they smooth or really kind of unclear ? > > How often do you clear the internal data? > > The mate 3 has a fatal flaw. Th internal data will over write code once > memory is full. > > One indicator is locking up, another is the graphs looking unclear. > > It’s recommended to clear it at least every 6 months. > > And even with current firmware and clearing memory, I still see it happen. > > Jay > > > > > > > On Oct 10, 2018, at 4:51 PM, Dana wrote: > > My learned fellow Sparkies, > > > > I have at home off-grid Radian with Mate 3 monitor. Periodically & > randomly my Mate 3 blanks out and requires a reboot (un-plug / re-plug). > While this is not such a big deal to address, the total loss of ALL the > performance & usage data is really concerning in the event that I need the > data for a T/S. > > > > I have not called OB as there is no cell service at or near the system and > to do so is a huge time killer back & forth & waiting to check again. I am > convinced the brain trust here is the answer. > > > > Has anyone else experienced this? > > Any remedial action to correct this issue? > > > > Let me know & thanks. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel NABCEP # 051112-136 > > Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com > > Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz > > ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Dana at solarwork.com Fri Oct 12 12:52:38 2018 From: Dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 09:52:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <009001d460f4$2f69b310$8e3d1930$@com> Message-ID: <00e101d4624b$fc60d260$f5227720$@com> Tried this & no change ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel NABCEP # 051112-136 Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 5:24 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown Possible it could be the connectors. Maybe try switching the cables, and/ or clean the ports with contact cleaner. Also check in the ports that all the little springy pin things ( that's official terminology). are all up at the same angle. I've seen those get bent sometimes. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/10/18 5:51 PM, Dana wrote: My learned fellow Sparkies, I have at home off-grid Radian with Mate 3 monitor. Periodically & randomly my Mate 3 blanks out and requires a reboot (un-plug / re-plug). While this is not such a big deal to address, the total loss of ALL the performance & usage data is really concerning in the event that I need the data for a T/S. I have not called OB as there is no cell service at or near the system and to do so is a huge time killer back & forth & waiting to check again. I am convinced the brain trust here is the answer. Has anyone else experienced this? Any remedial action to correct this issue? Let me know & thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel NABCEP # 051112-136 Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Fri Oct 12 23:10:33 2018 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 03:10:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown In-Reply-To: <00e101d4624b$fc60d260$f5227720$@com> References: <009001d460f4$2f69b310$8e3d1930$@com> , <00e101d4624b$fc60d260$f5227720$@com> Message-ID: Keep an SD card in your mate3, to allow it to record events even when it falters.. Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dana Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 9:52:38 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown Tried this & no change ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel NABCEP # 051112-136 Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 5:24 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown Possible it could be the connectors. Maybe try switching the cables, and/ or clean the ports with contact cleaner. Also check in the ports that all the little springy pin things ( that's official terminology). are all up at the same angle. I've seen those get bent sometimes. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/10/18 5:51 PM, Dana wrote: My learned fellow Sparkies, I have at home off-grid Radian with Mate 3 monitor. Periodically & randomly my Mate 3 blanks out and requires a reboot (un-plug / re-plug). While this is not such a big deal to address, the total loss of ALL the performance & usage data is really concerning in the event that I need the data for a T/S. I have not called OB as there is no cell service at or near the system and to do so is a huge time killer back & forth & waiting to check again. I am convinced the brain trust here is the answer. Has anyone else experienced this? Any remedial action to correct this issue? Let me know & thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel NABCEP # 051112-136 Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 18:35:43 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 15:35:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MPPSolar equipment Message-ID: <082C3DFA-B6A7-4AE1-A6C4-ADB2D84B5391@gmail.com> HI All, Has anyone used or know anything about MPPsolar equipment. Inverters, CC etc. It would be for international work. thx jay peltz power From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 22:39:11 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 22:39:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PIKA wind turbine. Message-ID: Hi wrenches, Do any of you own, have installed or know of a PIKA wind installation. I have a customer asking for a wind turbine to augment the 3.5 kw solar running a mountaintop transmitter site. I’m looking for some comments about reliability at an unattended site. John Blittersdorf CV Wind and Solar Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 10, 2018, at 7:51 PM, Dana wrote: > > My learned fellow Sparkies, > > I have at home off-grid Radian with Mate 3 monitor. Periodically & randomly my Mate 3 blanks out and requires a reboot (un-plug / re-plug). While this is not such a big deal to address, the total loss of ALL the performance & usage data is really concerning in the event that I need the data for a T/S. > > I have not called OB as there is no cell service at or near the system and to do so is a huge time killer back & forth & waiting to check again. I am convinced the brain trust here is the answer. > > Has anyone else experienced this? > Any remedial action to correct this issue? > > Let me know & thanks. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dana Orzel NABCEP # 051112-136 > Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com > Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz > ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374 > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Sun Oct 14 23:41:19 2018 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 03:41:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PIKA wind turbine. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We’ve installed 5 of them. Good machine, and they were worth the extensive lead times. Pika is not focused on their turbine any more, and I’ve been told they will not produce any more, unless they have a large project to fulfill. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Oct 14, 2018, at 8:39 PM, John Blittersdorf > wrote: Hi wrenches, Do any of you own, have installed or know of a PIKA wind installation. I have a customer asking for a wind turbine to augment the 3.5 kw solar running a mountaintop transmitter site. I’m looking for some comments about reliability at an unattended site. John Blittersdorf CV Wind and Solar Sent from my iPhone On Oct 10, 2018, at 7:51 PM, Dana > wrote: My learned fellow Sparkies, I have at home off-grid Radian with Mate 3 monitor. Periodically & randomly my Mate 3 blanks out and requires a reboot (un-plug / re-plug). While this is not such a big deal to address, the total loss of ALL the performance & usage data is really concerning in the event that I need the data for a T/S. I have not called OB as there is no cell service at or near the system and to do so is a huge time killer back & forth & waiting to check again. I am convinced the brain trust here is the answer. Has anyone else experienced this? Any remedial action to correct this issue? Let me know & thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel NABCEP # 051112-136 Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 09:02:31 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 09:02:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PIKA wind turbine. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy, I bought one early on in their production and set it up at my place for a demo. It worked great! Almost eliminated my generator in the long dark winters here. Long story short... I did a major upgrade for one of my off grid customers including upgrading from Xantrex SW4024Plus to Outback Flexware 500, 48V system, 5kw of additional solar on his barn roof, 12 Aquion 48V batteries, new generator, and lastly removing his aged Bergey XL.1 to replace with a PIKA. When I ordered the wind turbine, they were sold out and not planning to make more. I had to sell my customer my own turbine which PIKA graciously offered to provide full warranty if I shipped it to them first to prep it for the the new owner. We then installed it and it has worked relatively well except it periodically gets stuck "waiting". Pika techs were able to restart it remotely so that service being available makes it a workable design for remote sites. I really miss that turbine... it was totally quiet, saw up to 2900 watts in a 40 MPH wind. Good low wind performance. I could sell at least 3 of them right now if I could get them. Any other wrenches out there interested in getting the PIKA wind turbine back in production??? I missed a great opportunity at Mid West Renewable Energy Fair to get some names when the wind workshop presenter did not show up. I had 75 potential customers in that tent. Hesitated too long to get up in front of that group. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service and Solar (formerly CV Solar & Wind, then Rob Stubbins Electrical and Solar) 200 West Road (back where I started 22 years agi) N Chittenden, VT 05763 802-770-8625 voice and text john.blittersdorf at gmail.com www.cvsolar.com On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 11:41 PM Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > We’ve installed 5 of them. Good machine, and they were worth the extensive > lead times. Pika is not focused on their turbine any more, and I’ve been > told they will not produce any more, unless they have a large project to > fulfill. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1463 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > On Oct 14, 2018, at 8:39 PM, John Blittersdorf < > john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi wrenches, > Do any of you own, have installed or know of a PIKA wind > installation. I have a customer asking for a wind turbine to augment the > 3.5 kw solar running a mountaintop transmitter site. I’m looking for some > comments about reliability at an unattended site. > > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind and Solar > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 10, 2018, at 7:51 PM, Dana wrote: > > My learned fellow Sparkies, > > > > I have at home off-grid Radian with Mate 3 monitor. Periodically & > randomly my Mate 3 blanks out and requires a reboot (un-plug / re-plug). > While this is not such a big deal to address, the total loss of ALL the > performance & usage data is really concerning in the event that I need the > data for a T/S. > > > > I have not called OB as there is no cell service at or near the system and > to do so is a huge time killer back & forth & waiting to check again. I am > convinced the brain trust here is the answer. > > > > Has anyone else experienced this? > > Any remedial action to correct this issue? > > > > Let me know & thanks. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel NABCEP # 051112-136 > > Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com > > Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz > > ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374 > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Oct 15 13:20:31 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 11:20:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Factory Over bent Wiring Message-ID: <93f9a12c-423a-8418-ef36-fdfd22e3d8e6@solarray.com> Greetings; I've noticed several of the factory wired power panels over the years from Magnum, Outback, Midnite, Etc are not compliant with NEC 300.34 wire bending radius. (Radius should not be less than 8 times the diameter) Basically they should look like sweep bends in PVC conduit, not plumbing.  Here's a pic from a recent Magnum system You can see the kinks in the insulation on the inside of the bend, and the color fading on the outside from being overstretched.  Some might think this is neat work, but its actually permanent wire damage and a code violation.  Imagine the strain on the copper inside. Midnite is very proactive and has improved, I ask that Magnum do the same and soon. Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mhpimhgejcgimblo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 91771 bytes Desc: not available URL: From will at solarenergy.org Mon Oct 15 14:27:48 2018 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 14:27:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Factory Over bent Wiring In-Reply-To: <93f9a12c-423a-8418-ef36-fdfd22e3d8e6@solarray.com> References: <93f9a12c-423a-8418-ef36-fdfd22e3d8e6@solarray.com> Message-ID: NEC doesn't apply to the interior components of a UL listed device although I do see your point. I'm assuming they designed it taking that bend into consideration. On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 1:20 PM Ray wrote: > Greetings; > > I've noticed several of the factory wired power panels over the years from > Magnum, Outback, Midnite, Etc are not compliant with NEC 300.34 wire > bending radius. (Radius should not be less than 8 times the diameter) > Basically they should look like sweep bends in PVC conduit, not plumbing. > Here's a pic from a recent Magnum system > > You can see the kinks in the insulation on the inside of the bend, and the > color fading on the outside from being overstretched. Some might think > this is neat work, but its actually permanent wire damage and a code > violation. Imagine the strain on the copper inside. > > Midnite is very proactive and has improved, I ask that Magnum do the same > and soon. > > Thanks, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 *FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy.* Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mhpimhgejcgimblo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 91771 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mhpimhgejcgimblo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 91771 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Oct 15 23:23:24 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 21:23:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Factory Over bent Wiring In-Reply-To: References: <93f9a12c-423a-8418-ef36-fdfd22e3d8e6@solarray.com> Message-ID: <84879bd9-1edb-e246-79a3-22ac68210964@solarray.com> Hi Will; I understand that a UL factory assembly trumps any inspector concerns in the field, that's why I left those wires alone. However, no engineer designed that wire damage in.  There is no need for it to be bent that tight, there is plenty of space. If they did require a tight bend, there are 90 deg lugs or insulated buss bars for that purpose. I'd have to say this is definitely a short coming of the UL inspection process. If that work were done by my crew, I would have them replace all the damaged wire. Here is another THHN wire that is completely mauled with plier marks to straighten it.  The factory workers were getting obsessed with straight, instead of what's right. The electrons don't care about looks, but will happily short through a bad spot in the insulation. For comparison, here is the wiring in a Midnite E Panel, where they have the correct bends. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/15/18 12:27 PM, Will White wrote: > NEC doesn't apply to the interior components of a UL listed device > although I do see your point. I'm assuming they designed it taking > that bend into consideration. > > On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 1:20 PM Ray > wrote: > > Greetings; > > I've noticed several of the factory wired power panels over the > years from Magnum, Outback, Midnite, Etc are not compliant with > NEC 300.34 wire bending radius. (Radius should not be less than 8 > times the diameter) Basically they should look like sweep bends in > PVC conduit, not plumbing.  Here's a pic from a recent Magnum system > > You can see the kinks in the insulation on the inside of the bend, > and the color fading on the outside from being overstretched.  > Some might think this is neat work, but its actually permanent > wire damage and a code violation. Imagine the strain on the copper > inside. > > Midnite is very proactive and has improved, I ask that Magnum do > the same and soon. > > Thanks, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > /FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could > power the world with renewable energy./ > > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: kfippgdiicfplhkl.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 178144 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: damanhedoejcecdp.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45566 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Oct 16 12:43:20 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 12:43:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Terminal Corrosion Cleaning Idea In-Reply-To: References: <009001d460f4$2f69b310$8e3d1930$@com> <00e101d4624b$fc60d260$f5227720$@com> Message-ID: I don't know if this is old news, but I cannot recall seeing it, so I thought I would post. I was cleaning the battery terminals off my own system and my brushes were not getting to some of the spots. I put a mixture of baking soda and water in an old spray bottle I had saved and was able to hit all the spots. It used a lot less baking soda. I then sprayed the terminals with another bottle I had of water.  It's taking me a couple of days to get the terminals where they need to be, but I was surprised at how well it worked.   Chris --          Christopher Warfel, PE        ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                (401)466-8978 EEI logo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Tue Oct 16 13:21:49 2018 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 10:21:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Factory Over bent Wiring In-Reply-To: References: <93f9a12c-423a-8418-ef36-fdfd22e3d8e6@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray is coming at this from an electricians viewpoint. He is correct if talking about wiring outside of a UL or ETL listed product. The reason for wide radii in wiring is so the wires can be rerouted and terminated a few times. 8 times the diameter is a very large bend radii and would never fly inside a product, so why can a manufacturer do it? Copper has the tendency to work harden when bending back and forth. That will damage the current carrying characteristics of a wire. Bending a wire once does not work harden them. The insulation can get scrunched depending on the actual bend radii, but it is only cosmetic after one tight bend. There are no actual cracks that would jeopardize the insulation integrity. We have investigated this and determined it to be cosmetic in nature for a single bend. That said, I don’t like it either because it makes installers nervous and doesn’t look good. The tight wire bends are no different from putting tight bends on a sheet metal copper busbar. We do this all the time and always have. Testing shows that it does not constrict electrical flow. If you straighten that same copper busbar and bend it again, it is likely to break in half. That is work hardening to the extreme. So, there is no violation from tight wire bending inside a listed box. A listed box does not have the same restrictions as the NEC. Believe me, I too do not like zero radii bends and we have custom made pliers that give the wire a gradual radii, but that is cosmetics only. The wire is not actually damaged unless you straighten it up and re-bend it. We do not do that! Thanks, Robin Gudgel MidNite Solar On 10/15/2018 11:27 AM, Will White wrote: > NEC doesn't apply to the interior components of a UL listed device > although I do see your point. I'm assuming they designed it taking > that bend into consideration. > > On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 1:20 PM Ray > wrote: > > Greetings; > > I've noticed several of the factory wired power panels over the > years from Magnum, Outback, Midnite, Etc are not compliant with > NEC 300.34 wire bending radius. (Radius should not be less than 8 > times the diameter) Basically they should look like sweep bends in > PVC conduit, not plumbing.  Here's a pic from a recent Magnum system > > You can see the kinks in the insulation on the inside of the bend, > and the color fading on the outside from being overstretched.  > Some might think this is neat work, but its actually permanent > wire damage and a code violation. Imagine the strain on the copper > inside. > > Midnite is very proactive and has improved, I ask that Magnum do > the same and soon. > > Thanks, > > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > > /FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could > power the world with renewable energy./ > > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Tue Oct 16 13:03:38 2018 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 10:03:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GE GEPVp-055 Modules Message-ID: <0MUFgS-1g3Daq1ceY-00QymM@mrelay.perfora.net> I have been servicing this customer for over 12 years now, going through a various problems with the Fronius IG-5100 inverter. We never had to get a replacement but as I see in my files we did swap out a daughter board. The system is comprised of three strings of 34 each GEPVp-055 modules. We have a fusible DC disco before feeding the inverter. The problem is two-fold: low, fluctuating AC power and low, fluctuating DC string current. Under operation: 10:30 AM; temperature underneath PV modules 26 deg C; all modules have identical orientation; Irr (normal to PV modules)=427 W/m2, (12 deg pitch, bearing 267 deg) Vdc=228V; Voc=326V String #1: 2.54, 2.23, 2.66 A String #2: 1.76, 1.80, 2.07, 1.50 A String #3: 2.83, 2.96 A Pac=1,174 W and fluctuating between 1,050 and 1,400 I checked the fuses on the input: 23 to 29 m-ohms, under load. Since all three strings have fluctuating current, I suspect the inverter. But since string #2 is fluctuating much more, I worry about bad cell/j-box/DC-wiring. I plan to gen up a ~80 ohm / 750 W load and check each of the strings at the disconnect. So my question is has anyone heard of GEPVp-060 or -055 modules having problems? Peter T. Parrish SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Tue Oct 16 14:06:14 2018 From: rick at SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com (Rick Brown) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 14:06:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Factory Over bent Wiring In-Reply-To: <93f9a12c-423a-8418-ef36-fdfd22e3d8e6@solarray.com> References: <93f9a12c-423a-8418-ef36-fdfd22e3d8e6@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1AA06242-C30E-4FF6-84D2-991BE43B9266@SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com> Depending on code cycle, NEC 300.34 refers to conductors over 600V. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Oct 15, 2018, at 1:20 PM, Ray wrote: > > Greetings; > > I've noticed several of the factory wired power panels over the years from Magnum, Outback, Midnite, Etc are not compliant with NEC 300.34 wire bending radius. (Radius should not be less than 8 times the diameter) Basically they should look like sweep bends in PVC conduit, not plumbing. Here's a pic from a recent Magnum system > > > > You can see the kinks in the insulation on the inside of the bend, and the color fading on the outside from being overstretched. Some might think this is neat work, but its actually permanent wire damage and a code violation. Imagine the strain on the copper inside. > Midnite is very proactive and has improved, I ask that Magnum do the same and soon. > > Thanks, > -- > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: solshine-01-18-17 copy.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10151 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 19:52:43 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 13:52:43 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Terminal Corrosion Cleaning Idea In-Reply-To: References: <009001d460f4$2f69b310$8e3d1930$@com> <00e101d4624b$fc60d260$f5227720$@com> Message-ID: Here is a easy and clean way to fill your FLA's I use a weed sprayer 1 gallon bottle and just cut the end off, its pressurized and makes easy work servicing the customers battery systems, just thought since we are talking battery cleaning and maintenance this would fit in. Jerry On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 6:43 AM cwarfel wrote: > I don't know if this is old news, but I cannot recall seeing it, so I > thought I would post. > > I was cleaning the battery terminals off my own system and my brushes were > not getting to some of the spots. I put a mixture of baking soda and water > in an old spray bottle I had saved and was able to hit all the spots. It > used a lot less baking soda. I then sprayed the terminals with another > bottle I had of water. It's taking me a couple of days to get the > terminals where they need to be, but I was surprised at how well it > worked. Chris > -- > > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401)466-8978 > > [image: EEI logo] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Oct 17 11:07:04 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 09:07:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Factory Over bent Wiring In-Reply-To: References: <93f9a12c-423a-8418-ef36-fdfd22e3d8e6@solarray.com> Message-ID: <925499c9-0c30-ded6-6bbb-9659cec3327c@solarray.com> I think if we showed those pictures to a THHN wire manufacturer, they would not approve of deforming the insulation to that degree.  We are also talking about load centers with the same bending space available to the factory as we electricians have. I also want to point out that Midnite has been very proactive with their wire bending techniques.  I posted a picture of their work as an example of 'how to do it'.  I'm now calling on other manufacturers to do the same. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/16/18 11:21 AM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > > Ray is coming at this from an electricians viewpoint. He is correct if > talking about wiring outside of a UL or ETL listed product. > > The reason for wide radii in wiring is so the wires can be rerouted > and terminated a few times. > > 8 times the diameter is a very large bend radii and would never fly > inside a product, so why can a manufacturer do it? > > Copper has the tendency to work harden when bending back and forth. > That will damage the current carrying characteristics of a wire. > > Bending a wire once does not work harden them. The insulation can get > scrunched depending on the actual bend radii, but it is > > only cosmetic after one tight bend. There are no actual cracks that > would jeopardize the insulation integrity. > > We have investigated this and determined it to be cosmetic in nature > for a single bend. That said, I don’t like it either > > because it makes installers nervous and doesn’t look good. The tight > wire bends are no different from putting tight bends > > on a sheet metal copper busbar. We do this all the time and always > have. Testing shows that it does not constrict electrical flow. > > If you straighten that same copper busbar and bend it again, it is > likely to break in half. That is work hardening to the extreme. > So, there is no violation from tight wire bending inside a listed box. > A listed box does not have the same restrictions as the NEC. > > Believe me, I too do not like zero radii bends and we have custom made > pliers that give the wire a gradual radii, but that is cosmetics only. > > The wire is not actually damaged unless you straighten it up and > re-bend it. We do not do that! > Thanks, > Robin Gudgel > MidNite Solar > > > > On 10/15/2018 11:27 AM, Will White wrote: >> NEC doesn't apply to the interior components of a UL listed device >> although I do see your point. I'm assuming they designed it taking >> that bend into consideration. >> >> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 1:20 PM Ray > > wrote: >> >> Greetings; >> >> I've noticed several of the factory wired power panels over the >> years from Magnum, Outback, Midnite, Etc are not compliant with >> NEC 300.34 wire bending radius. (Radius should not be less than 8 >> times the diameter) Basically they should look like sweep bends >> in PVC conduit, not plumbing.  Here's a pic from a recent Magnum >> system >> >> You can see the kinks in the insulation on the inside of the >> bend, and the color fading on the outside from being >> overstretched.  Some might think this is neat work, but its >> actually permanent wire damage and a code violation.  Imagine the >> strain on the copper inside. >> >> Midnite is very proactive and has improved, I ask that Magnum do >> the same and soon. >> >> Thanks, >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> *Will White* >> Curriculum Developer >> >> >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> w: www.solarenergy.org >> p: 802-272-3092 >> >> PV Installation Professional >> # 093006-34 >> >> /FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could >> power the world with renewable energy./ >> >> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change >> . >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive:http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Mon Oct 22 16:32:30 2018 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 13:32:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fat Spaniel Message-ID: <0MMERP-1gG3mL2ACT-0086rD@mrelay.perfora.net> I have a client with a Fat Spaniel box. They can't remember their user name and password. I did a little digging and I came to the conclusion that the Fat Spaniel product is no longer being sold, no longer being supported, and their cloud server has been taken down. Am I right -- on any account? - Peter  Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. California Solar Engineering 1107 Fair Oaks, Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323)839-6108 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon Oct 22 23:51:12 2018 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 03:51:12 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GSLC BYPASS PARTS Message-ID: Does anyone have some mechanical bypass brackets and plate for a single Radian Load Center? 120/240vac. I just need the parts circled in blue (pic attached) I see it’s in a kit form, but I will have all the breakers, buss bars, etc. as we are making up our own load center. Off grid. William? I know you make your own panels, but.... [image1.jpeg] Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 139298 bytes Desc: image1.jpeg URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Oct 23 00:29:32 2018 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 04:29:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fat Spaniel In-Reply-To: <0MMERP-1gG3mL2ACT-0086rD@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0MMERP-1gG3mL2ACT-0086rD@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: Yes, correct on all - servers long since gone. We had a few of these going back 12 years. They got bought out in 2010 and not sure what happened after that. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish Sent: October-22-18 1:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fat Spaniel I have a client with a Fat Spaniel box. They can't remember their user name and password. I did a little digging and I came to the conclusion that the Fat Spaniel product is no longer being sold, no longer being supported, and their cloud server has been taken down. Am I right -- on any account? - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. California Solar Engineering 1107 Fair Oaks, Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323)839-6108 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at solar-energy-solutions.com Tue Oct 23 08:58:37 2018 From: matt at solar-energy-solutions.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 08:58:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fat Spaniel In-Reply-To: <0MMERP-1gG3mL2ACT-0086rD@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0MMERP-1gG3mL2ACT-0086rD@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: ABB took over their sites and all of ours are still accessed at www.auroravision.net. Matt On Mon, October 22, 2018 4:32 pm, Peter Parrish wrote: > I have a client with a Fat Spaniel box. They can't remember their user > name and password. I did a little digging and I came to the conclusion > that the Fat Spaniel product is no longer being sold, no longer being > supported, and their cloud server has been taken down. Am I right -- on > any account? - Peter  > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > California Solar Engineering > 1107 Fair Oaks, Ave. Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323)839-6108 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.ht > ml > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Matthew Partymiller Solar Energy Solutions LLC (877) 312-7456 matt at solar-energy-solutions.com From kanestephenj at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 10:44:17 2018 From: kanestephenj at gmail.com (Stephen K) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 08:44:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fat Spaniel In-Reply-To: <0MMERP-1gG3mL2ACT-0086rD@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0MMERP-1gG3mL2ACT-0086rD@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: Hi Peter, Yes, Fat Spaniel is no longer. They were acquired by ABB / Power One many years ago. You can no longer get replacement hardware but they do still offer the web portal for data if your devices are working. The original Fat Spaniel subscriptions were typically 5 year terms but ABB is allowing for renewal of subscriptions as far as I know. Here is the login/portal (called "Aurora Vision"): https://accounts.auroravision.net/sso/login?service=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.auroravision.net%2Fdash%2Fsso And the Support Portal for retrieving a user name / password if possible is: https://new.abb.com/power-converters-inverters/submit-your-inquiry Hope that helps, Stephen Kane Namaste Solar Boulder, CO On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 5:28 PM Peter Parrish wrote: > I have a client with a Fat Spaniel box. They can't remember their user > name and password. I did a little digging and I came to the conclusion that > the Fat Spaniel product is no longer being sold, no longer being supported, > and their cloud server has been taken down. > > Am I right -- on any account? > > - Peter > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > California Solar Engineering > 1107 Fair Oaks, Ave. Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323)839-6108 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Tue Oct 23 13:46:45 2018 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:46:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <009001d460f4$2f69b310$8e3d1930$@com> , <00e101d4624b$fc60d260$f5227720$@com>, Message-ID: Hey Dana, Sorry for the delayed response. I have experienced many problems just like you describe with the Mate 3 (which is no longer in production). I've tried firmware and everything else to no avail. There were several other problems as well. Outback was really good about free replacements while under warranty but the new one often might end up with the same issue. Outback Power recently came out with the "Mate 3S" (notice the "S") and their aim with this new model was to fix all these issues. I have used several and so far, it seems like they have successfully fixed all of these problems. I have had no issues with the new Mate 3S. Before they finally released the Mate 3S, they said that they would upgrade any problematic Mate 3 that's still under warranty for free with the new Mate 3S. I would give them a call and see what they can do. This is definitely a defect that was widespread so I think they will take care of it for you as long as it's a new enough system. Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar (off-grid specialist) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of MiJo Nels Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 9:10 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown Keep an SD card in your mate3, to allow it to record events even when it falters.. Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dana Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 9:52:38 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown Tried this & no change ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel NABCEP # 051112-136 Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 5:24 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3 shutdown Possible it could be the connectors. Maybe try switching the cables, and/ or clean the ports with contact cleaner. Also check in the ports that all the little springy pin things ( that's official terminology). are all up at the same angle. I've seen those get bent sometimes. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/10/18 5:51 PM, Dana wrote: My learned fellow Sparkies, I have at home off-grid Radian with Mate 3 monitor. Periodically & randomly my Mate 3 blanks out and requires a reboot (un-plug / re-plug). While this is not such a big deal to address, the total loss of ALL the performance & usage data is really concerning in the event that I need the data for a T/S. I have not called OB as there is no cell service at or near the system and to do so is a huge time killer back & forth & waiting to check again. I am convinced the brain trust here is the answer. Has anyone else experienced this? Any remedial action to correct this issue? Let me know & thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel NABCEP # 051112-136 Cell - 208.721.7003 Email - dana at solarwork.com Great Solar Works, Idaho Inc www.solarwork.biz ID PV Contractor - # 028765 - ID PV Electrician # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Oct 27 11:19:59 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 11:19:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium ion for 12 V system Message-ID: <73f1f7794f11a2c70f0ee2ddf2ebcddfa5b697bc@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> An off grid system owner contacted me, looking for a L-ion battery for a 12 V system. Does such a thing exist? Thanks, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 11:43:56 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 09:43:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium ion for 12 V system In-Reply-To: <73f1f7794f11a2c70f0ee2ddf2ebcddfa5b697bc@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <73f1f7794f11a2c70f0ee2ddf2ebcddfa5b697bc@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hi Drake, There are quite a few. Here are some links: https://www.victronenergy.com/batteries/lithium-battery-12-8v https://battlebornbatteries.com/shop/12v-lifepo4-deep-cycle-battery/ I can't vouch for any of these but they are available Thanks On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:20 AM wrote: > > An off grid system owner contacted me, looking for a L-ion battery for a > 12 V system. Does such a thing exist? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Oct 27 12:05:14 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 09:05:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium ion for 12 V system In-Reply-To: References: <73f1f7794f11a2c70f0ee2ddf2ebcddfa5b697bc@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <43dc34c4-4150-9338-79f3-271d3df2ee17@psln.com> Drake,             How many amphrs are you looking for? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 10/27/2018 8:43 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Drake, > > There are quite a few. > > Here are some links: > https://www.victronenergy.com/batteries/lithium-battery-12-8v > https://battlebornbatteries.com/shop/12v-lifepo4-deep-cycle-battery/ > > I can't vouch for any of these but they are available > > Thanks > > On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:20 AM > wrote: > > > An off grid system owner contacted me, looking for a L-ion battery > for a 12 V system. Does such a thing exist? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Oct 27 13:45:17 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 11:45:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium ion for 12 V system In-Reply-To: References: <73f1f7794f11a2c70f0ee2ddf2ebcddfa5b697bc@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <7bf989f9-667e-df16-7d27-5b4b42cfd39c@solarray.com> https://simpliphipower.com/product/phi-1-3-battery/ http://www.lifebluebattery.com/rv-boat-lithium-ion-batteries/ Simpliphi has been around longer than most, and is posting some of the longest cycle life.  LifeBlue has a blue tooth SOC monitor built in. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/27/18 9:43 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Drake, > > There are quite a few. > > Here are some links: > https://www.victronenergy.com/batteries/lithium-battery-12-8v > https://battlebornbatteries.com/shop/12v-lifepo4-deep-cycle-battery/ > > I can't vouch for any of these but they are available > > Thanks > > On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 9:20 AM > wrote: > > > An off grid system owner contacted me, looking for a L-ion battery > for a 12 V system. Does such a thing exist? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Oct 27 11:30:00 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 11:30:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium ion for 12 V system Message-ID: <1l9p92mnka7oei3asksvkc8i.1540653928570@email.lge.com> We've used a couple of Battle Born batteries in systems with no problems.I'd like to try LiFe Blue for their wireless monitoring system next. We are finding it hard to transition from old SOC ways to explaining to customers how to tell the condition of the new technology.Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos.------ Original message------From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.orgDate: Sat, Oct 27, 2018 11:20 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Lithium ion for 12 V systemAn off grid system owner contacted me, looking for a L-ion battery for a 12 V system. Does such a thing exist?Thanks,Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 21:10:55 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 20:10:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium ion for 12 V system In-Reply-To: <73f1f7794f11a2c70f0ee2ddf2ebcddfa5b697bc@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <73f1f7794f11a2c70f0ee2ddf2ebcddfa5b697bc@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I have done a Simplifhy system, it is a Li-FePO4 Alt- E had them at one time. On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 10:20 AM wrote: > > An off grid system owner contacted me, looking for a L-ion battery for a > 12 V system. Does such a thing exist? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Oct 27 21:49:43 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 19:49:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium ion for 12 V system In-Reply-To: References: <73f1f7794f11a2c70f0ee2ddf2ebcddfa5b697bc@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <8411ec4c-13c9-f622-e344-4abf59a3be75@solarray.com> North West Energy Storage has the Simpliphi. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 10/27/18 7:10 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > I have done a Simplifhy  system,  it is a Li-FePO4 Alt- E had them at > one time. > > On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 10:20 AM > wrote: > > > An off grid system owner contacted me, looking for a L-ion battery > for a 12 V system. Does such a thing exist? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Sat Oct 27 22:49:23 2018 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 19:49:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium ion for 12 V system In-Reply-To: <73f1f7794f11a2c70f0ee2ddf2ebcddfa5b697bc@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <73f1f7794f11a2c70f0ee2ddf2ebcddfa5b697bc@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: K-2 in Henderson NV has 12v Lion batteries with BMS David Katz On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 8:19 AM wrote: > > An off grid system owner contacted me, looking for a L-ion battery for a > 12 V system. Does such a thing exist? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 23:03:53 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 20:03:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wattsun linear actuator Message-ID: HI All I”m trying to locate another ( or Similar) VonWeise V76-5 actuator for an older wattsun smaller tracker. I’ve only found 1 used one on Ebay. Any ideas? thx jay peltz power From dana at solarwork.com Tue Oct 30 10:21:59 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 08:21:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wattsun linear actuator Message-ID: <001401d4705b$f57e0a80$e07a1f80$@solarwork.com> Jay, I may have a new one I will check the storage container & get with you off line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 9:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] wattsun linear actuator HI All I”m trying to locate another ( or Similar) VonWeise V76-5 actuator for an older wattsun smaller tracker. I’ve only found 1 used one on Ebay. Any ideas? thx jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Oct 30 11:51:06 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 09:51:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Jay,Re: wattsun linear actuator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c15e3d3-33ba-0f63-9de5-f643e33f4db9@sindelarsolar.com> Jay and all, I recently learned that while Array Technologies has grown well past small residential applications, there is limited support available for older Wattsun trackers. The Wattsun.com website doesn't say much about this, but Array Tech sold their residential division to old friends of Ron Corio's, who maintain a stock of some of the parts to keep older AZ-125, AZ-225 and other models going. It's a father/son team: Kyle Greulich, 973 647-7751 and Jeff Greulich, 973 476-1256. You might give them a try for that linear actuator. Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 10/29/2018 9:03 PM, jay wrote: > HI All > > I”m trying to locate another ( or Similar) VonWeise V76-5 actuator for an older wattsun smaller tracker. > > I’ve only found 1 used one on Ebay. Any ideas? > > thx > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Thu Nov 1 12:40:22 2018 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2018 09:40:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?13=2E4kW_on_two_Conext_80-600=3F?= Message-ID: <20181101094022.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.cdecefed3a.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Nov 1 19:47:55 2018 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 23:47:55 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 13.4kW on two Conext 80-600? In-Reply-To: <20181101094022.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.cdecefed3a.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> References: <20181101094022.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.cdecefed3a.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <8b3a49029f324f0d8d3de6ce6f804be4@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> My understanding is the intention is to get more power into batteries from the arrays during low light conditions, knowing that there is way too much power when there is full sun and will be limited to 5 kW max per controller. Kevin From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com Sent: November-01-18 9:40 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 13.4kW on two Conext 80-600? Hi Guys, I have a customer wanting me to set 40 335W panels (13.4kW) using two Schneider Conext 80-600 (80A) charge controllers.. said it's a Conext tech support design.. Seems like that's a whole bunch of clipping to me.. What am I missing? tks db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Thu Nov 1 20:23:26 2018 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2018 17:23:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?13=2E4kW_on_two_Conext_80-600=3F?= Message-ID: <20181101172326.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.d5bdc66a52.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Nov 2 05:24:09 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 05:24:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 13.4kW on two Conext 80-600? In-Reply-To: <20181101172326.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.d5bdc66a52.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> References: <20181101172326.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.d5bdc66a52.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <60F2B4F4-E077-4115-8AD7-263F068BA54C@swnl.net> your in Vermont…cold and I would look at the max charge current the battery manu recommends but that seems to me to be WAY over kill. your using Schnider not that I use the enfizz products, but... Schnider “says” that these inverters are able to regulate the charge into the batteries as well as feed the grid. may be a different option. I too try to maximize low light conditions but it seems to me that this is not the way I would want to go. > On Nov 1, 2018, at 8:23 PM, wrote: > > Sorry, my bad.. this is a grid tie system with a minimal battery bank (1 string of T105). > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 13.4kW on two Conext 80-600? > From: Kevin Pegg > > Date: Thu, November 01, 2018 7:47 pm > To: RE-wrenches > > > My understanding is the intention is to get more power into batteries from the arrays during low light conditions, knowing that there is way too much power when there is full sun and will be limited to 5 kW max per controller. > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of dan at foxfire-energy.com > Sent: November-01-18 9:40 AM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 13.4kW on two Conext 80-600? > > > Hi Guys, I have a customer wanting me to set 40 335W panels (13.4kW) using two Schneider Conext 80-600 (80A) charge controllers.. said it's a Conext tech support design.. Seems like that's a whole bunch of clipping to me.. What am I missing? tks db > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 18:03:41 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 15:03:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium age question Message-ID: <698B441C-02AC-40DE-B4C6-FF87F7BC22A4@gmail.com> Hi all, As a lithium battery ages, does the voltage keep it’s flat line steep curve but just start it’s drop at a higher voltage or does it have more of a gradual voltage drop? Thx Jay Peltz power. From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Oct 30 10:35:42 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 07:35:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] wattsun linear actuator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, is this for the small tracker that preceded the AZ125 and AZ250? I was told that the parts for the 125 (not made now) can be sourced from the AZ250 Called something else but still in production.. Motors, actuators and controllers will work on either. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 20:03:53 -0700, jay wrote: > HI All > > I”m trying to locate another ( or Similar) VonWeise V76-5 actuator for an > older wattsun smaller tracker. > > I’ve only found 1 used one on Ebay. Any ideas? > > thx > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Nov 1 13:04:15 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2018 10:04:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?13=2E4kW_on_two_Conext_80-600=3F?= In-Reply-To: <20181101094022.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.cdecefed3a.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> References: <20181101094022.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.cdecefed3a.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Hi Dan, I have done similar in cold environments where the CC's are cool and in an offgrid mode where they really do not spend much time "clipping". This design goal is for winter when it is cloudy. I would never do this in a place that has a summer, in the deserts, or tied to the grid. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 01 Nov 2018 09:40:22 -0700, wrote: Hi Guys, I have a customer wanting me to set 40 335W panels (13.4kW) using two Schneider Conext 80-600 (80A) charge controllers.. said it's a Conext tech support design.. Seems like that's a whole bunch of clipping to me.. What am I missing? tks db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com [3] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 07:53:46 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 06:53:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium age question In-Reply-To: <698B441C-02AC-40DE-B4C6-FF87F7BC22A4@gmail.com> References: <698B441C-02AC-40DE-B4C6-FF87F7BC22A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have found that the voltage stays the same but the current and capacity drop. This is from only 6 cases. The fully charged voltage is the same but the energy stored is less. The power is less, meaning i can not get the same current On Fri, Nov 2, 2018, 6:10 AM Jay Hi all, > > As a lithium battery ages, does the voltage keep it’s flat line steep > curve but just start it’s drop at a higher voltage or does it have more of > a gradual voltage drop? > > Thx > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Nov 2 10:47:53 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2018 07:47:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium age question In-Reply-To: <698B441C-02AC-40DE-B4C6-FF87F7BC22A4@gmail.com> References: <698B441C-02AC-40DE-B4C6-FF87F7BC22A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: I only have 2 years offgrid data Jay, but I would say it is definitely not at a higher voltage but rather a faster decline from what I have seen in the Australian University LFP testing. My home battery and the other 3 beta testers for the Schneider/LG testing are still at 99% State of life with 2 years daily cycling. Going to outlive us at this rate. Anybody find a battery based inverter for California's Rule 21’s SRD requirements? Contact me offline if you need info. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 15:03:41 -0700, Jay wrote: > Hi all, > > As a lithium battery ages, does the voltage keep it’s flat line steep > curve but just start it’s drop at a higher voltage or does it have more of > a gradual voltage drop? > > Thx > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From william at millersolar.com Fri Nov 2 14:18:27 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 11:18:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending Message-ID: <43330e1df4d599e627ec62f75095bf16@mail.gmail.com> Colleagues: I am always trying to improve my conduit bending skills. I came upon this scenario and need some input: I am bending stubs at less than 90 degrees. How do I calculate stub heights at less than 90 degrees? I am using the old bend-it-longer-and-cut-it-to-length method but that does not suit my personal style. I want to make a mark, bend from it and have it fit. I have searched on line and purchased several IOS apps for conduit bending. None of my research has turned up an answer. Thanks in advance for any advice. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Nov 2 15:23:09 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 13:23:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending In-Reply-To: <43330e1df4d599e627ec62f75095bf16@mail.gmail.com> References: <43330e1df4d599e627ec62f75095bf16@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <53f81507-15ad-0eb7-d2ce-7f91c611bc6f@solarray.com> I usually do the bend and cut method, because it really is faster and EMT is cheap.  Look how much time you are already cooking doing research and exploring various apps, etc?  I too have wanted to be the cool pro, and bend to exact measurements, but alas, the sun is setting much sooner now, and I need to get the job done. Also, I recently picked up a nifty reamer attachment that chucks up in a cordless drill and finishes the cut end nicely.  Between that and my porta band saw,  the bend and cut method is faster and the finished job is just as good.  Actually I just switched to Metal Clad 6-3 for my PV runs, and it seems better as well. I look forward to hearing what other more accomplished conduit smiths have to offer, though. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/2/18 12:18 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > I am always trying to improve my conduit bending skills.  I came upon > this scenario and need some input: > > I am bending stubs at less than 90 degrees.  How do I calculate stub > heights at less than 90 degrees?  I am using the old > bend-it-longer-and-cut-it-to-length method but that does not suit my > personal style.  I want to make a mark, bend from it and have it fit. > > I have searched on line and purchased several IOS apps for conduit > bending.  None of my research has turned up an answer. > > Thanks in advance for any advice. > > William > > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 15:40:03 2018 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 12:40:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending In-Reply-To: <53f81507-15ad-0eb7-d2ce-7f91c611bc6f@solarray.com> References: <43330e1df4d599e627ec62f75095bf16@mail.gmail.com> <53f81507-15ad-0eb7-d2ce-7f91c611bc6f@solarray.com> Message-ID: William, When one is doing a lot of bending of rigid conduit, where the finished length of pipe needs to be determined, after all bends are made, and threading happens first due to bends interfering with the threading machine, one develops a DOPE sheet. The term being borrowed from long distance marksmanship, Data On Previous Engagements. One bends scrap pipe to various angles, and by making marks where the bender makes contact with both stub marks, and the 45 degree and saddle marks, a cheat sheet can be developed to help with arriving at desired stub lengths and calculating “shrink”, the amount that a length of pipe shortens after bends are made. Similarly a DOPE sheet can be made, or trigonometry can be used when making concentric bends and segmented bending. That was the world I inhabited for a decade and a half. Now days, if I get into that situation, bend and cut : ) Michael > On Nov 2, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Ray wrote: > > I usually do the bend and cut method, because it really is faster and EMT is cheap. Look how much time you are already cooking doing research and exploring various apps, etc? I too have wanted to be the cool pro, and bend to exact measurements, but alas, the sun is setting much sooner now, and I need to get the job done. Also, I recently picked up a nifty reamer attachment that chucks up in a cordless drill and finishes the cut end nicely. Between that and my porta band saw, the bend and cut method is faster and the finished job is just as good. Actually I just switched to Metal Clad 6-3 for my PV runs, and it seems better as well. > > I look forward to hearing what other more accomplished conduit smiths have to offer, though. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 11/2/18 12:18 PM, William Miller wrote: >> Colleagues: >> >> I am always trying to improve my conduit bending skills. I came upon this scenario and need some input: >> >> I am bending stubs at less than 90 degrees. How do I calculate stub heights at less than 90 degrees? I am using the old bend-it-longer-and-cut-it-to-length method but that does not suit my personal style. I want to make a mark, bend from it and have it fit. >> >> I have searched on line and purchased several IOS apps for conduit bending. None of my research has turned up an answer. >> >> Thanks in advance for any advice. >> >> William >> >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Fri Nov 2 16:55:53 2018 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 13:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending In-Reply-To: References: <43330e1df4d599e627ec62f75095bf16@mail.gmail.com> <53f81507-15ad-0eb7-d2ce-7f91c611bc6f@solarray.com> Message-ID: <1541192153.910725610@finestplanet.mymailsrvr.com> On Friday, November 2, 2018 12:40pm, "Michael Morningstar" said: William, When one is doing a lot of bending of rigid conduit, where the finished length of pipe needs to be determined, after all bends are made, and threading happens first due to bends interfering with the threading machine, one develops a DOPE sheet. The term being borrowed from long distance marksmanship, Data On Previous Engagements. One bends scrap pipe to various angles, and by making marks where the bender makes contact with both stub marks, and the 45 degree and saddle marks, a cheat sheet can be developed to help with arriving at desired stub lengths and calculating “shrink”, the amount that a length of pipe shortens after bends are made. Similarly a DOPE sheet can be made, or trigonometry can be used when making concentric bends and segmented bending. That was the world I inhabited for a decade and a half. Now days, if I get into that situation, bend and cut : ) Michael On Nov 2, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Ray <[ ray at solarray.com ]( mailto:ray at solarray.com )> wrote: I usually do the bend and cut method, because it really is faster and EMT is cheap. Look how much time you are already cooking doing research and exploring various apps, etc? I too have wanted to be the cool pro, and bend to exact measurements, but alas, the sun is setting much sooner now, and I need to get the job done. Also, I recently picked up a nifty reamer attachment that chucks up in a cordless drill and finishes the cut end nicely. Between that and my porta band saw, the bend and cut method is faster and the finished job is just as good. Actually I just switched to Metal Clad 6-3 for my PV runs, and it seems better as well. I look forward to hearing what other more accomplished conduit smiths have to offer, though. Ray WaltersRemote Solar303 505-8760 On 11/2/18 12:18 PM, William Miller wrote: Colleagues: I am always trying to improve my conduit bending skills. I came upon this scenario and need some input: I am bending stubs at less than 90 degrees. How do I calculate stub heights at less than 90 degrees? I am using the old bend-it-longer-and-cut-it-to-length method but that does not suit my personal style. I want to make a mark, bend from it and have it fit. I have searched on line and purchased several IOS apps for conduit bending. None of my research has turned up an answer. Thanks in advance for any advice. William Lic 773985[ millersolar.com ]( http://www.millersolar.com/ )805-438-5600 _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )Change listserver email address & settings:[ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org )List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html )List rules & etiquette:[ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm )Check out or update participant bios:[ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ )_______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )Change listserver email address & settings:[ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org )List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html )List rules & etiquette:[ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm )Check out or update participant bios:[ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Nov 2 19:00:50 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 17:00:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending Message-ID: <003701d472ff$e79a19d0$b6ce4d70$@solarwork.com> I too have been perplexed on the art of conduit bending. One of my favorite master electricians in CO suggested that I go online & get a DVD & book with tips & calcs that he makes available to his apprentices. Relatively cheap compared to experimenting/guessing - time & a pile of odd-looking material attempts. It was completely worth the $100+/- I spent. I checked on Amazon & it looked like it was there still there. Conduit Bending Program with DVD AND Bending Charts Book Supplement – 2016 I am still learning but it’s lots easier. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of toddcory at finestplanet.com Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 2:56 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending On Friday, November 2, 2018 12:40pm, "Michael Morningstar" < mjmorningstar at gmail.com> said: William, When one is doing a lot of bending of rigid conduit, where the finished length of pipe needs to be determined, after all bends are made, and threading happens first due to bends interfering with the threading machine, one develops a DOPE sheet. The term being borrowed from long distance marksmanship, Data On Previous Engagements. One bends scrap pipe to various angles, and by making marks where the bender makes contact with both stub marks, and the 45 degree and saddle marks, a cheat sheet can be developed to help with arriving at desired stub lengths and calculating “shrink”, the amount that a length of pipe shortens after bends are made. Similarly a DOPE sheet can be made, or trigonometry can be used when making concentric bends and segmented bending. That was the world I inhabited for a decade and a half. Now days, if I get into that situation, bend and cut : ) Michael On Nov 2, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Ray < ray at solarray.com> wrote: I usually do the bend and cut method, because it really is faster and EMT is cheap. Look how much time you are already cooking doing research and exploring various apps, etc? I too have wanted to be the cool pro, and bend to exact measurements, but alas, the sun is setting much sooner now, and I need to get the job done. Also, I recently picked up a nifty reamer attachment that chucks up in a cordless drill and finishes the cut end nicely. Between that and my porta band saw, the bend and cut method is faster and the finished job is just as good. Actually I just switched to Metal Clad 6-3 for my PV runs, and it seems better as well. I look forward to hearing what other more accomplished conduit smiths have to offer, though. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/2/18 12:18 PM, William Miller wrote: Colleagues: I am always trying to improve my conduit bending skills. I came upon this scenario and need some input: I am bending stubs at less than 90 degrees. How do I calculate stub heights at less than 90 degrees? I am using the old bend-it-longer-and-cut-it-to-length method but that does not suit my personal style. I want to make a mark, bend from it and have it fit. I have searched on line and purchased several IOS apps for conduit bending. None of my research has turned up an answer. Thanks in advance for any advice. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Nov 2 19:08:18 2018 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 16:08:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending In-Reply-To: <003701d472ff$e79a19d0$b6ce4d70$@solarwork.com> References: <003701d472ff$e79a19d0$b6ce4d70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Don't forget about YouTube - a quick search for "conduit bending" yields dozens of helpful videos, some professionally produced. August Luminalt On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 4:00 PM Dana wrote: > I too have been perplexed on the art of conduit bending. One of my > favorite master electricians in CO suggested that I go online & get a DVD & > book with tips & calcs that he makes available to his apprentices. > > Relatively cheap compared to experimenting/guessing - time & a pile of > odd-looking material attempts. > > > > It was completely worth the $100+/- I spent. > > I checked on Amazon & it looked like it was there still there. > > *Conduit Bending Program with DVD AND Bending Charts Book Supplement – > 2016 * > > I am still learning but it’s lots easier. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *toddcory at finestplanet.com > *Sent:* Friday, November 02, 2018 2:56 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending > > > > > > > > On Friday, November 2, 2018 12:40pm, "Michael Morningstar" < > mjmorningstar at gmail.com> said: > > William, > > > > When one is doing a lot of bending of rigid conduit, where the finished > length of pipe needs to be determined, after all bends are made, and > threading happens first due to bends interfering with the threading > machine, one develops a DOPE sheet. The term being borrowed from long > distance marksmanship, Data On Previous Engagements. One bends scrap pipe > to various angles, and by making marks where the bender makes contact with > both stub marks, and the 45 degree and saddle marks, a cheat sheet can be > developed to help with arriving at desired stub lengths and calculating > “shrink”, the amount that a length of pipe shortens after bends are made. > Similarly a DOPE sheet can be made, or trigonometry can be used when making > concentric bends and segmented bending. > > That was the world I inhabited for a decade and a half. Now days, if I get > into that situation, bend and cut : ) > > Michael > > On Nov 2, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Ray wrote: > > I usually do the bend and cut method, because it really is faster and EMT > is cheap. Look how much time you are already cooking doing research and > exploring various apps, etc? I too have wanted to be the cool pro, and > bend to exact measurements, but alas, the sun is setting much sooner now, > and I need to get the job done. Also, I recently picked up a nifty reamer > attachment that chucks up in a cordless drill and finishes the cut end > nicely. Between that and my porta band saw, the bend and cut method is > faster and the finished job is just as good. Actually I just switched to > Metal Clad 6-3 for my PV runs, and it seems better as well. > > I look forward to hearing what other more accomplished conduit smiths have > to offer, though. > > Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 > > On 11/2/18 12:18 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > > > I am always trying to improve my conduit bending skills. I came upon this > scenario and need some input: > > > > I am bending stubs at less than 90 degrees. How do I calculate stub > heights at less than 90 degrees? I am using the old > bend-it-longer-and-cut-it-to-length method but that does not suit my > personal style. I want to make a mark, bend from it and have it fit. > > > > I have searched on line and purchased several IOS apps for conduit > bending. None of my research has turned up an answer. > > > > Thanks in advance for any advice. > > > > William > > > > > > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or > update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 20:13:03 2018 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 17:13:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending In-Reply-To: References: <003701d472ff$e79a19d0$b6ce4d70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <7136B46B-5CF5-4E4B-BE3B-81BE3124C1CE@gmail.com> Thats a good one. My nephew who is an apprentice in the IBEW (he took my advise and is becoming an electrician first, before entering the AE field) was issued that book and CD. I reviewed it and found it to be pretty thorough. I keep the copy of Coxx’s ELECTRICIANS GUIDE TO CONDUIT BENDING from my apprenticeship in the 80’s in my truck along with many other reference books. I don’t bend enough pipe anymore to be able to place a three point saddle precisely where it should be…..Dohh!!! > On Nov 2, 2018, at 4:08 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Don't forget about YouTube - a quick search for "conduit bending" yields dozens of helpful videos, some professionally produced. > > August > Luminalt > > > On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 4:00 PM Dana > wrote: > I too have been perplexed on the art of conduit bending. One of my favorite master electricians in CO suggested that I go online & get a DVD & book with tips & calcs that he makes available to his apprentices. > > Relatively cheap compared to experimenting/guessing - time & a pile of odd-looking material attempts. > > > > It was completely worth the $100+/- I spent. > > I checked on Amazon & it looked like it was there still there. > > Conduit Bending Program with DVD AND Bending Charts Book Supplement – 2016 > > I am still learning but it’s lots easier. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of toddcory at finestplanet.com > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 2:56 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending > > > > > > > On Friday, November 2, 2018 12:40pm, "Michael Morningstar" > said: > > William, > > > > When one is doing a lot of bending of rigid conduit, where the finished length of pipe needs to be determined, after all bends are made, and threading happens first due to bends interfering with the threading machine, one develops a DOPE sheet. The term being borrowed from long distance marksmanship, Data On Previous Engagements. One bends scrap pipe to various angles, and by making marks where the bender makes contact with both stub marks, and the 45 degree and saddle marks, a cheat sheet can be developed to help with arriving at desired stub lengths and calculating “shrink”, the amount that a length of pipe shortens after bends are made. Similarly a DOPE sheet can be made, or trigonometry can be used when making concentric bends and segmented bending. > > That was the world I inhabited for a decade and a half. Now days, if I get into that situation, bend and cut : ) > > Michael > > On Nov 2, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Ray > wrote: > > I usually do the bend and cut method, because it really is faster and EMT is cheap. Look how much time you are already cooking doing research and exploring various apps, etc? I too have wanted to be the cool pro, and bend to exact measurements, but alas, the sun is setting much sooner now, and I need to get the job done. Also, I recently picked up a nifty reamer attachment that chucks up in a cordless drill and finishes the cut end nicely. Between that and my porta band saw, the bend and cut method is faster and the finished job is just as good. Actually I just switched to Metal Clad 6-3 for my PV runs, and it seems better as well. > > I look forward to hearing what other more accomplished conduit smiths have to offer, though. > > Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 > On 11/2/18 12:18 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > > > I am always trying to improve my conduit bending skills. I came upon this scenario and need some input: > > > > I am bending stubs at less than 90 degrees. How do I calculate stub heights at less than 90 degrees? I am using the old bend-it-longer-and-cut-it-to-length method but that does not suit my personal style. I want to make a mark, bend from it and have it fit. > > > > I have searched on line and purchased several IOS apps for conduit bending. None of my research has turned up an answer. > > > > Thanks in advance for any advice. > > > > William > > > > > > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 21:36:32 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 18:36:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending In-Reply-To: <003701d472ff$e79a19d0$b6ce4d70$@solarwork.com> References: <003701d472ff$e79a19d0$b6ce4d70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: There is no substitute for practice, Utube videos only go so far, get some pipe and a bender and start working. It's interesting how everyone is looking for the key to learning how to do most everything that is hard, the key is practice, get your hands dirty and you will be impressed by what you can do. Jerry On Fri, Nov 2, 2018, 4:00 PM Dana wrote: > I too have been perplexed on the art of conduit bending. One of my > favorite master electricians in CO suggested that I go online & get a DVD & > book with tips & calcs that he makes available to his apprentices. > > Relatively cheap compared to experimenting/guessing - time & a pile of > odd-looking material attempts. > > > > It was completely worth the $100+/- I spent. > > I checked on Amazon & it looked like it was there still there. > > *Conduit Bending Program with DVD AND Bending Charts Book Supplement – > 2016 * > > I am still learning but it’s lots easier. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *toddcory at finestplanet.com > *Sent:* Friday, November 02, 2018 2:56 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending > > > > > > > > On Friday, November 2, 2018 12:40pm, "Michael Morningstar" < > mjmorningstar at gmail.com> said: > > William, > > > > When one is doing a lot of bending of rigid conduit, where the finished > length of pipe needs to be determined, after all bends are made, and > threading happens first due to bends interfering with the threading > machine, one develops a DOPE sheet. The term being borrowed from long > distance marksmanship, Data On Previous Engagements. One bends scrap pipe > to various angles, and by making marks where the bender makes contact with > both stub marks, and the 45 degree and saddle marks, a cheat sheet can be > developed to help with arriving at desired stub lengths and calculating > “shrink”, the amount that a length of pipe shortens after bends are made. > Similarly a DOPE sheet can be made, or trigonometry can be used when making > concentric bends and segmented bending. > > That was the world I inhabited for a decade and a half. Now days, if I get > into that situation, bend and cut : ) > > Michael > > On Nov 2, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Ray wrote: > > I usually do the bend and cut method, because it really is faster and EMT > is cheap. Look how much time you are already cooking doing research and > exploring various apps, etc? I too have wanted to be the cool pro, and > bend to exact measurements, but alas, the sun is setting much sooner now, > and I need to get the job done. Also, I recently picked up a nifty reamer > attachment that chucks up in a cordless drill and finishes the cut end > nicely. Between that and my porta band saw, the bend and cut method is > faster and the finished job is just as good. Actually I just switched to > Metal Clad 6-3 for my PV runs, and it seems better as well. > > I look forward to hearing what other more accomplished conduit smiths have > to offer, though. > > Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 > > On 11/2/18 12:18 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > > > I am always trying to improve my conduit bending skills. I came upon this > scenario and need some input: > > > > I am bending stubs at less than 90 degrees. How do I calculate stub > heights at less than 90 degrees? I am using the old > bend-it-longer-and-cut-it-to-length method but that does not suit my > personal style. I want to make a mark, bend from it and have it fit. > > > > I have searched on line and purchased several IOS apps for conduit > bending. None of my research has turned up an answer. > > > > Thanks in advance for any advice. > > > > William > > > > > > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or > update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Nov 5 10:07:11 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 07:07:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commercial backfeed In-Reply-To: References: <003701d472ff$e79a19d0$b6ce4d70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <8a8cafb8-d88b-c406-3210-dea9aa9bfa6b@psln.com> Hey folks,             I've been asked to inter-tie a system to a 600 amp 480V delta panel.  Do all the same rules apply (Backfeed max 20%, keep inter-tie breaker farthest from panel grid feeders, anything else??).  Proposed system size is about 35-40KW.  Its actually a bazillionaire's residence. TIA Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Nov 5 11:15:04 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 11:15:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commercial backfeed In-Reply-To: <8a8cafb8-d88b-c406-3210-dea9aa9bfa6b@psln.com> References: <003701d472ff$e79a19d0$b6ce4d70$@solarwork.com> <8a8cafb8-d88b-c406-3210-dea9aa9bfa6b@psln.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill, It's smaller than NEC 691covers, so I would think all the same rules apply (Not an engineered, stamped allowance). Chris On 11/5/2018 10:07 AM, frenergy wrote: > Hey folks, > >             I've been asked to inter-tie a system to a 600 amp 480V > delta panel.  Do all the same rules apply (Backfeed max 20%, keep > inter-tie breaker farthest from panel grid feeders, anything else??).  > Proposed system size is about 35-40KW.  Its actually a bazillionaire's > residence. > > TIA > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Mon Nov 5 11:31:48 2018 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 08:31:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commercial backfeed In-Reply-To: <8a8cafb8-d88b-c406-3210-dea9aa9bfa6b@psln.com> References: <003701d472ff$e79a19d0$b6ce4d70$@solarwork.com> <8a8cafb8-d88b-c406-3210-dea9aa9bfa6b@psln.com> Message-ID: Yep, all the rules still apply, But with 480 you get far more leeway as far as breaker size with the square-root factored in. On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 7:07 AM, frenergy wrote: > Hey folks, > > I've been asked to inter-tie a system to a 600 amp 480V delta > panel. Do all the same rules apply (Backfeed max 20%, keep inter-tie > breaker farthest from panel grid feeders, anything else??). Proposed > system size is about 35-40KW. Its actually a bazillionaire's residence. > > TIA > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.or > g/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 11:59:29 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 10:59:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Commercial backfeed In-Reply-To: <8a8cafb8-d88b-c406-3210-dea9aa9bfa6b@psln.com> References: <003701d472ff$e79a19d0$b6ce4d70$@solarwork.com> <8a8cafb8-d88b-c406-3210-dea9aa9bfa6b@psln.com> Message-ID: That is a strange panel. If you are feeding a breaker panel yes you must be farther from the line connections to the bus bar, unless the busbars are limited in the total load breakers in which case the other set of rules apply. How and what you connect depends upon the service at that point. If it is delta not wye, as you said, you have to use a true 480-volt inverter, not a 277-480 inverter. The difference is the ground connection-neutral bond. The 480 Delta could be grounded as corner ground making the legs 480, 480, 0 volts, or as a center tap 240-480-volt making the legs 240, 240, 415 volts to ground. If however, it is not a delta but a wye the legs would all be 277-volts to ground. Be sure to check voltages and with your inverter supplier so you have the correct configuration. 20% of 600 A at 480-volt 3-phase is about 100 kW. (600 x 0.2 x 480 x 1.73 = 99.600 Watts) This system will have another transformer, either single phase or 3-phase giving the 120-volt plug loads. On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 9:04 AM frenergy wrote: > Hey folks, > > I've been asked to inter-tie a system to a 600 amp 480V > delta panel. Do all the same rules apply (Backfeed max 20%, keep > inter-tie breaker farthest from panel grid feeders, anything else??). > Proposed system size is about 35-40KW. Its actually a bazillionaire's > residence. > > TIA > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Mon Nov 5 16:42:47 2018 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 21:42:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback sold to PA battery company References: <193396475.1326415.1541454167013.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <193396475.1326415.1541454167013@mail.yahoo.com> Hi folks, It looks like Outback (owned by Alpha) has been sold to Enersys, who has been supplying the Outback-branded batteries for years. Anyone have any info as to how this may affect Outback production or support? https://www.readingeagle.com/money/article/enersys-acquires-alpha-technologies | | | EnerSys acquires Alpha Technologies Deal will allow Bern Township company to expand product portfolio. | | |  Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Nov 4 22:22:33 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 19:22:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending In-Reply-To: References: <003701d472ff$e79a19d0$b6ce4d70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Jerry: I sure hope you are not implying that I don’t get my hands dirty, or that I am looking for some kind of shortcut, because your message kind of implies that. I have been in the trades since 1973. I have been licensed since 1990. I have bent EMT, rigid steel, rigid aluminum and PVC. I have installed vapor proof, explosion proof and motor control circuits. I have roped new houses and have done lots of old-work. I have installed microwave dishes, spliced waveguide, rebuilt transmitters and installed video and audio distribution equipment-- complete with ladder rack and fiber optics raceway. We have installed hundreds of PV systems, most of them off-grid, and established somewhat of a reputation for quality work……. I hope you get the picture. Getting one’s hands dirty is only part of the answer. Engaging your brain, using the best tools you can find and reaching out to other professionals is the other part of the equation. In our trade, a contractor does not bend conduit all day every day. We sometimes go weeks without touching a stick of pipe. Therefore, we have to keep thinking and keep training. This is why I reached out to the Wrenches for advice. I hope we can keep the Wrenches forum as a safe place to ask for advice without fear of being judged. Most Sincerely, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer *Sent:* Sunday, November 04, 2018 6:37 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending There is no substitute for practice, Utube videos only go so far, get some pipe and a bender and start working. It's interesting how everyone is looking for the key to learning how to do most everything that is hard, the key is practice, get your hands dirty and you will be impressed by what you can do. Jerry On Fri, Nov 2, 2018, 4:00 PM Dana wrote: I too have been perplexed on the art of conduit bending. One of my favorite master electricians in CO suggested that I go online & get a DVD & book with tips & calcs that he makes available to his apprentices. Relatively cheap compared to experimenting/guessing - time & a pile of odd-looking material attempts. It was completely worth the $100+/- I spent. I checked on Amazon & it looked like it was there still there. *Conduit Bending Program with DVD AND Bending Charts Book Supplement – 2016 * I am still learning but it’s lots easier. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com * Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. *From:* RE-wrenches *On Behalf Of *toddcory at finestplanet.com *Sent:* Friday, November 02, 2018 2:56 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending On Friday, November 2, 2018 12:40pm, "Michael Morningstar" < mjmorningstar at gmail.com> said: William, When one is doing a lot of bending of rigid conduit, where the finished length of pipe needs to be determined, after all bends are made, and threading happens first due to bends interfering with the threading machine, one develops a DOPE sheet. The term being borrowed from long distance marksmanship, Data On Previous Engagements. One bends scrap pipe to various angles, and by making marks where the bender makes contact with both stub marks, and the 45 degree and saddle marks, a cheat sheet can be developed to help with arriving at desired stub lengths and calculating “shrink”, the amount that a length of pipe shortens after bends are made. Similarly a DOPE sheet can be made, or trigonometry can be used when making concentric bends and segmented bending. That was the world I inhabited for a decade and a half. Now days, if I get into that situation, bend and cut : ) Michael On Nov 2, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Ray wrote: I usually do the bend and cut method, because it really is faster and EMT is cheap. Look how much time you are already cooking doing research and exploring various apps, etc? I too have wanted to be the cool pro, and bend to exact measurements, but alas, the sun is setting much sooner now, and I need to get the job done. Also, I recently picked up a nifty reamer attachment that chucks up in a cordless drill and finishes the cut end nicely. Between that and my porta band saw, the bend and cut method is faster and the finished job is just as good. Actually I just switched to Metal Clad 6-3 for my PV runs, and it seems better as well. I look forward to hearing what other more accomplished conduit smiths have to offer, though. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/2/18 12:18 PM, William Miller wrote: Colleagues: I am always trying to improve my conduit bending skills. I came upon this scenario and need some input: I am bending stubs at less than 90 degrees. How do I calculate stub heights at less than 90 degrees? I am using the old bend-it-longer-and-cut-it-to-length method but that does not suit my personal style. I want to make a mark, bend from it and have it fit. I have searched on line and purchased several IOS apps for conduit bending. None of my research has turned up an answer. Thanks in advance for any advice. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 17:13:34 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2018 14:13:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback sold to PA battery company In-Reply-To: <193396475.1326415.1541454167013@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5be0c092.1c69fb81.b41a3.a324@mx.google.com> WrenchesI spoke to a senior manager at Outback at SPI and they said that there they are an inverter company and regardless of ownership that would not change. At that time it was only a rumor and they may have been down playing the entire idea even after l said that they would be.Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Bill Hennessy Date: 11/5/18 1:42 PM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback sold to PA battery company Hi folks, It looks like Outback (owned by Alpha) has been sold to Enersys, who has been supplying the Outback-branded batteries for years. Anyone have any info as to how this may affect Outback production or support? https://www.readingeagle.com/money/article/enersys-acquires-alpha-technologies EnerSys acquires Alpha Technologies Deal will allow Bern Township company to expand product portfolio.  Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 18:42:01 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 15:42:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending In-Reply-To: References: <003701d472ff$e79a19d0$b6ce4d70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Mr. Miller I did not nor would l ever say you don't get your hands dirty, conduit work is not much different than riding a bike, the best way to stay on top of what ever you do is to practice. l to have been in the trades since the 70's. lm also a pilot and both require hands on behind the wheel skill and brain. Developing connections that includes eye hand feel of what you are operating that as l as sure you have comes with using the tools and knowing the feel in you hands not on a video on a screen. There are many people either entering our trade as a result of retraining or through ROP private or public programs that watch u tube videos and think they are masters of the trade before ever picking up a bender, this is what l am referring to. Jerry On Mon, Nov 5, 2018, 2:06 PM William Miller wrote: > Jerry: > > > > I sure hope you are not implying that I don’t get my hands dirty, or that > I am looking for some kind of shortcut, because your message kind of > implies that. I have been in the trades since 1973. I have been licensed > since 1990. I have bent EMT, rigid steel, rigid aluminum and PVC. I have > installed vapor proof, explosion proof and motor control circuits. I have > roped new houses and have done lots of old-work. I have installed > microwave dishes, spliced waveguide, rebuilt transmitters and installed > video and audio distribution equipment-- complete with ladder rack and > fiber optics raceway. We have installed hundreds of PV systems, most of > them off-grid, and established somewhat of a reputation for quality > work……. I hope you get the picture. > > > > Getting one’s hands dirty is only part of the answer. Engaging your > brain, using the best tools you can find and reaching out to other > professionals is the other part of the equation. > > > > In our trade, a contractor does not bend conduit all day every day. We > sometimes go weeks without touching a stick of pipe. Therefore, we have to > keep thinking and keep training. > > > > This is why I reached out to the Wrenches for advice. I hope we can keep > the Wrenches forum as a safe place to ask for advice without fear of being > judged. > > > > Most Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer > *Sent:* Sunday, November 04, 2018 6:37 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending > > > > There is no substitute for practice, Utube videos only go so far, get some > pipe and a bender and start working. It's interesting how everyone is > looking for the key to learning how to do most everything that is hard, the > key is practice, get your hands dirty and you will be impressed by what you > can do. > > Jerry > > > > On Fri, Nov 2, 2018, 4:00 PM Dana wrote: > > I too have been perplexed on the art of conduit bending. One of my > favorite master electricians in CO suggested that I go online & get a DVD & > book with tips & calcs that he makes available to his apprentices. > > Relatively cheap compared to experimenting/guessing - time & a pile of > odd-looking material attempts. > > > > It was completely worth the $100+/- I spent. > > I checked on Amazon & it looked like it was there still there. > > *Conduit Bending Program with DVD AND Bending Charts Book Supplement – > 2016 * > > I am still learning but it’s lots easier. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *toddcory at finestplanet.com > *Sent:* Friday, November 02, 2018 2:56 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Conduit Bending > > > > > > > > On Friday, November 2, 2018 12:40pm, "Michael Morningstar" < > mjmorningstar at gmail.com> said: > > William, > > > > When one is doing a lot of bending of rigid conduit, where the finished > length of pipe needs to be determined, after all bends are made, and > threading happens first due to bends interfering with the threading > machine, one develops a DOPE sheet. The term being borrowed from long > distance marksmanship, Data On Previous Engagements. One bends scrap pipe > to various angles, and by making marks where the bender makes contact with > both stub marks, and the 45 degree and saddle marks, a cheat sheet can be > developed to help with arriving at desired stub lengths and calculating > “shrink”, the amount that a length of pipe shortens after bends are made. > Similarly a DOPE sheet can be made, or trigonometry can be used when making > concentric bends and segmented bending. > > That was the world I inhabited for a decade and a half. Now days, if I get > into that situation, bend and cut : ) > > Michael > > On Nov 2, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Ray wrote: > > I usually do the bend and cut method, because it really is faster and EMT > is cheap. Look how much time you are already cooking doing research and > exploring various apps, etc? I too have wanted to be the cool pro, and > bend to exact measurements, but alas, the sun is setting much sooner now, > and I need to get the job done. Also, I recently picked up a nifty reamer > attachment that chucks up in a cordless drill and finishes the cut end > nicely. Between that and my porta band saw, the bend and cut method is > faster and the finished job is just as good. Actually I just switched to > Metal Clad 6-3 for my PV runs, and it seems better as well. > > I look forward to hearing what other more accomplished conduit smiths have > to offer, though. > > Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 > > On 11/2/18 12:18 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Colleagues: > > > > I am always trying to improve my conduit bending skills. I came upon this > scenario and need some input: > > > > I am bending stubs at less than 90 degrees. How do I calculate stub > heights at less than 90 degrees? I am using the old > bend-it-longer-and-cut-it-to-length method but that does not suit my > personal style. I want to make a mark, bend from it and have it fit. > > > > I have searched on line and purchased several IOS apps for conduit > bending. None of my research has turned up an answer. > > > > Thanks in advance for any advice. > > > > William > > > > > > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or > update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Tue Nov 6 07:31:40 2018 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 05:31:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?13=2E4kW_on_two_Conext_80-600=3F?= Message-ID: <20181106053140.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.dd96237aa5.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 19:51:43 2018 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 00:51:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] ANSI-C12.20 compliant meters for PPAs References: <1343725646.23251.1541551903626.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1343725646.23251.1541551903626@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Wrenches, Does anyone have recommendations for low cost, user friendly ANSI-C12.20 compliant meters? I need one for a project with a PPA and appreciate any advice anyone can offer. Best regards, Jerry Caldwell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Wed Nov 7 08:55:00 2018 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 13:55:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ANSI-C12.20 compliant meters for PPAs In-Reply-To: <1343725646.23251.1541551903626@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1343725646.23251.1541551903626.ref@mail.yahoo.com>, <1343725646.23251.1541551903626@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jerry, The Locus meters are a pretty straightforward solution. Best regards, Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jerry Caldwell Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 7:51:43 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] ANSI-C12.20 compliant meters for PPAs Dear Wrenches, Does anyone have recommendations for low cost, user friendly ANSI-C12.20 compliant meters? I need one for a project with a PPA and appreciate any advice anyone can offer. Best regards, Jerry Caldwell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philboutelle at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 17:57:09 2018 From: philboutelle at gmail.com (Philip Boutelle) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 14:57:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ANSI-C12.20 compliant meters for PPAs In-Reply-To: References: <1343725646.23251.1541551903626.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1343725646.23251.1541551903626@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: eGauge is also ANSI-C12.20 compliant On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 5:55 AM Lloyd Hoffstatter < lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: > Jerry, > > > > The Locus meters are a pretty straightforward solution. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Lloyd Hoffstatter > > Sunstruck Consulting > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jerry Caldwell > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 6, 2018 7:51:43 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] ANSI-C12.20 compliant meters for PPAs > > Dear Wrenches, > > Does anyone have recommendations for low cost, user friendly ANSI-C12.20 > compliant meters? I need one for a project with a PPA and appreciate any > advice anyone can offer. > > Best regards, > Jerry Caldwell > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Thu Nov 8 14:20:01 2018 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 14:20:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kohler generator 1/2 voltage Message-ID: <804C55B3-C7D6-44C9-A0AC-342BCEF434D4@icloud.com> Hello, I got called in to debug an old off grid system with a Kohler 8.5 RES generator. Across L1-L2 is 120vac. From both L1 & L2 to common gnd/neutral is 60v. I verified the windings are connected for 120/240 operation(in series with center tap for G/N). These voltages are the same on the genny side of its breaker when turned off (no inverter connection). I am having trouble envisioning a scenario of mis-wiring if indeed each one of the windings is producing 120 VAC. Seems odd to me that a bad regulator would cause this, but who knows. Alternator? Ideas? Thanks. Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Nov 8 17:08:29 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 17:08:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kohler generator 1/2 voltage Message-ID: <7u6uf6t8c2c6sqdcrd6fgp1f.1541714766907@email.lge.com> I had a similar issue with an On an off grid genny earlier this year. The customer had a local On an tech come out and they replaced the voltage regulator board and cleared up the issue.They also said these regulator boards for the older gennies were getting hard to find, so just another thing for a customer to consider.GlennSent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos.------ Original message------From: Kirk HeranderDate: Thu, Nov 8, 2018 4:17 PMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Kohler generator 1/2 voltageHello, I got called in to debug an old off grid system with a Kohler 8.5 RES generator. Across L1-L2 is 120vac. From both L1 & L2 to common gnd/neutral is 60v. I verified the windings are connected for 120/240 operation(in series with center tap for G/N). These voltages are the same on the genny side of its breaker when turned off (no inverter connection). I am having trouble envisioning a scenario of mis-wiring if indeed each one of the windings is producing 120 VAC. Seems odd to me that a bad regulator would cause this, but who knows. Alternator? Ideas? Thanks. Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Nov 8 20:45:18 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 18:45:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kohler generator 1/2 voltage Message-ID: <001f01d477cd$dfcf68e0$9f6e3aa0$@solarwork.com> My neighbor bought a used 8.5 ONAN. It had been in standby-backup mode for all its life close to the Pacific. Other than the usual costal crud buildup he had to cleanup he had to replace exactly that - the voltage regulator & they are getting harder to find. His mechanic also switched the distributor over to a solid state. They found that the gen had been wired with the 2 - 120 legs [240 vac] and that the original owner [or installer?] had not used the neutral. He has been running it into a transformer this way for 120 output [1 - SW4024] only & getting smooth 120 vac. We are not sure but this may have led to premature voltage regulator failure or was it just time near the coast? We will be rectifying this wire setup though it does not seem to have been damaging to the gen, the brushes all look even. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 12:20 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kohler generator 1/2 voltage Hello, I got called in to debug an old off grid system with a Kohler 8.5 RES generator. Across L1-L2 is 120vac. From both L1 & L2 to common gnd/neutral is 60v. I verified the windings are connected for 120/240 operation(in series with center tap for G/N). These voltages are the same on the genny side of its breaker when turned off (no inverter connection). I am having trouble envisioning a scenario of mis-wiring if indeed each one of the windings is producing 120 VAC. Seems odd to me that a bad regulator would cause this, but who knows. Alternator? Ideas? Thanks. Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From tump at swnl.net Fri Nov 9 05:32:25 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 05:32:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kohler generator 1/2 voltage In-Reply-To: <804C55B3-C7D6-44C9-A0AC-342BCEF434D4@icloud.com> References: <804C55B3-C7D6-44C9-A0AC-342BCEF434D4@icloud.com> Message-ID: <837E13E2-7E91-4632-AF08-CF03483D79DB@swnl.net> Those had wicked controller issues. Most of them have been updated a few times. There is a way to confirm settings, it may have reverted to 120 only output. Ill look to see if I have but it use to be in the manual. > On Nov 8, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > Hello, > I got called in to debug an old off grid system with a Kohler 8.5 RES generator. Across L1-L2 is 120vac. From both L1 & L2 to common gnd/neutral is 60v. I verified the windings are connected for 120/240 operation(in series with center tap for G/N). These voltages are the same on the genny side of its breaker when turned off (no inverter connection). I am having trouble envisioning a scenario of mis-wiring if indeed each one of the windings is producing 120 VAC. Seems odd to me that a bad regulator would cause this, but who knows. Alternator? Ideas? Thanks. > > Kirk Herander, VT Solar, LLC > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emerkel15 at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 06:27:06 2018 From: emerkel15 at gmail.com (Evan M) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 06:27:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kohler generator 1/2 voltage Message-ID: Once upon a time I was certified to work in those things but it's been a while. Do you have a spare AVR board on hand you can try swapping in to rule out AVR issues? // Evan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Fri Nov 9 18:00:44 2018 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 18:00:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kohler generator 1/2 voltage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just discovered that the controller has to be programmed to the proper wired voltage and frequency. I’m having a generator tech check on that. He recently replaced the AVR board I’m now told, but didn’t take any measurements, I guess. Kirk Herander > On Nov 9, 2018, at 6:27 AM, Evan M wrote: > > Once upon a time I was certified to work in those things but it's been a while. Do you have a spare AVR board on hand you can try swapping in to rule out AVR issues? > > // Evan > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From david at evcl.com Sat Nov 10 00:04:50 2018 From: david at evcl.com (David Coale) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 21:04:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schott solar panel warranty info Message-ID: <7EF96519-954E-44AF-875E-B13B826D630B@evcl.com> Does anyone have a good contact for Schott Solar warranty claims? Is this still possible? I just changed inverters to one with optimizers and see that I have a lot of bad panels. On closer inspection there are quite a few bad solder joints that are the causing the problems. Thanks, David From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Nov 10 01:08:02 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 23:08:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schott solar panel warranty info In-Reply-To: <7EF96519-954E-44AF-875E-B13B826D630B@evcl.com> References: <7EF96519-954E-44AF-875E-B13B826D630B@evcl.com> Message-ID: David, Out of curiosity, as I live off grid only about 50 miles from where Schott's Albuquerque factory was located, I was curious about your question. I found nothing in my personal archive of saved Wrenches posts on Schott warranty options from around 2012-14 or thereafter. A web search produced nothing either; same for a search for "Schott warranty" in the real Wrenches archives. I'd like to be shown I'm wrong here, but at this point I'd be glad that I wasn't the original installer. Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 11/9/2018 10:04 PM, David Coale wrote: > Does anyone have a good contact for Schott Solar warranty claims? Is this still possible? I just changed inverters to one with optimizers and see that I have a lot of bad panels. On closer inspection there are quite a few bad solder joints that are the causing the problems. > > Thanks, > > David > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sat Nov 10 13:49:26 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 08:49:26 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schott solar panel warranty info In-Reply-To: <7EF96519-954E-44AF-875E-B13B826D630B@evcl.com> References: <7EF96519-954E-44AF-875E-B13B826D630B@evcl.com> Message-ID: <004801d47926$1c695410$553bfc30$@com> Hey David, I have had recent contact with Schott peeps and can provide it to you when I'm back at my desk next week. marco -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Coale Sent: Friday, November 09, 2018 7:05 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schott solar panel warranty info Does anyone have a good contact for Schott Solar warranty claims? Is this still possible? I just changed inverters to one with optimizers and see that I have a lot of bad panels. On closer inspection there are quite a few bad solder joints that are the causing the problems. Thanks, David _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Sat Nov 10 17:32:39 2018 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 12:32:39 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Testing Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, I have a orphaned system with 6 - Aquion Aspen 48Ss that is running out of energy nightly. This is a off-grid system with a Outback FP1. The logs from the Mate 3 do not show excess usage. Beyond testing the voltages of the individual stacks is there any way to check if a battery is good, bad, or failing? I don't have much experience with Aquions and have yet to have any of the 40 or so stacks I have installed fail. Thanks for your insight. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 18:48:14 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 18:48:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lou, I recently discovered that each layer can be checked for voltage. I had one battery test lower than the rest. Looking at the battery closer, I found that my meter probe could get the voltage of each layer indivually. Through an opening in the case. The top layer had the reduced voltage output and it was one cell of the 4 cells in each layer. I have 4 customers with Aquions and we are seeing lower storage because the days are Shorter now and fewer sunny days here in the Northeast. These batteries really like long slow charges. I have one customer with 8000 watts of Pv and a 12kw generator and he can’t figure out why his generator has to run so long. It is the nature of the batteries and our darkest month. His system is undersized with 12 battery stacks and he is driving to Maine tomorrow to buy 20 more from another unhappy Aquion user who is going back to lead acid. I am hoping doubling his storage will solve another problem of voltage dropping to 36 volts when his 1.75hp well pump runs when no sun or generator. Over sizing the battery bank is ok with Aquions as they don’t need to be fully charged.on a regular basis. John Blittersdorf . On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 5:33 PM Lou Russo wrote: > Aloha Wrenches, > > I have a orphaned system with 6 - Aquion Aspen 48Ss that is running out of > energy nightly. This is a off-grid system with a Outback FP1. The logs from > the Mate 3 do not show excess usage. Beyond testing the voltages of the > individual stacks is there any way to check if a battery is good, bad, or > failing? I don't have much experience with Aquions and have yet to have > any of the 40 or so stacks I have installed fail. > > Thanks for your insight. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 23:48:44 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 23:48:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac Eco-Gen 6 kw Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I have a customer with a Generac EcoGen 6kw that starts and runs for about 30 seconds and then shuts down with high engine temp error. The engine is stone cold so it must be a temp sensor failure. Disconnecting the sensor or jumpering the two leads together makes no difference. Has anyone seen this issue? The engine runs real smooth until it shuts down. John Blittersdorf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sun Nov 11 23:53:19 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 23:53:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW4024 not selling. Message-ID: I have a past off-grid customer who has now connected to the grid and I installed a transfer switch to allow him to run off-grid or grid tied. We have ACIN 1 good and line tie light lit up.. It just refuses to sell. Are there any other settings that would impact selling beyond the max sell amps and sell voltage? John Blittersdorf. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Nov 12 00:30:40 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 22:30:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW4024 not selling. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm sure you did this, but did you set menu 9 (Inverter Setup) - Grid Usage to "SELL"  ?  Its a whole separate menu heading than "Battery Selling".  That was always a bit of a pain to have to set it in 2 different menu headings. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/11/18 9:53 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > I have a past off-grid customer who has now connected to the grid and > I installed a transfer switch to allow him to run off-grid or grid > tied.  We have ACIN 1 good and line tie light lit up..  It just > refuses to sell.  Are there any other settings that would impact > selling beyond the max sell amps and sell voltage? > > John Blittersdorf. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Nov 12 01:35:59 2018 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 22:35:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW4024 not selling. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1542004559.0968448@finestplanet.mymailsrvr.com> and the yellow "line tie" led should be on. todd On Sunday, November 11, 2018 9:30pm, "Ray" said: I'm sure you did this, but did you set menu 9 (Inverter Setup) - Grid Usage to "SELL" ? Its a whole separate menu heading than "Battery Selling". That was always a bit of a pain to have to set it in 2 different menu headings. Ray WaltersRemote Solar303 505-8760 On 11/11/18 9:53 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: I have a past off-grid customer who has now connected to the grid and I installed a transfer switch to allow him to run off-grid or grid tied. We have ACIN 1 good and line tie light lit up.. It just refuses to sell. Are there any other settings that would impact selling beyond the max sell amps and sell voltage? John Blittersdorf. _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )Change listserver email address & settings:[ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org )List-Archive: [ http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html ]( http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html )List rules & etiquette:[ www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm )Check out or update participant bios:[ www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Nov 12 07:00:53 2018 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 07:00:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW4024 not selling. In-Reply-To: <1542004559.0968448@finestplanet.mymailsrvr.com> References: <1542004559.0968448@finestplanet.mymailsrvr.com> Message-ID: Also don't forget to set the (18) Grid Usage Timer Christopher On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 1:35 AM, wrote: > and the yellow "line tie" led should be on. > > > > todd > > > > > > > > On Sunday, November 11, 2018 9:30pm, "Ray" said: > > I'm sure you did this, but did you set menu 9 (Inverter Setup) - Grid > Usage to "SELL" ? Its a whole separate menu heading than "Battery > Selling". That was always a bit of a pain to have to set it in 2 different > menu headings. > > Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 > On 11/11/18 9:53 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > > I have a past off-grid customer who has now connected to the grid and I > installed a transfer switch to allow him to run off-grid or grid tied. We > have ACIN 1 good and line tie light lit up.. It just refuses to sell. Are > there any other settings that would impact selling beyond the max sell amps > and sell voltage? > John Blittersdorf. > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change > listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/ > options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette. > htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 11:34:24 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 12:34:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac Eco-Gen 6 kw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What's the error on the controller On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 00:49 John Blittersdorf Hello Wrenches, > I have a customer with a Generac EcoGen 6kw that starts and runs for > about 30 seconds and then shuts down with high engine temp error. The > engine is stone cold so it must be a temp sensor failure. Disconnecting > the sensor or jumpering the two leads together makes no difference. Has > anyone seen this issue? The engine runs real smooth until it shuts down. > > John Blittersdorf > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Mon Nov 12 13:46:18 2018 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 11:46:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging two battery banks Message-ID: <032201d47ab7$fffafe30$fff0fa90$@OasisMontana.com> Dear people: I have a customer with a solar array for his 24V system, Bergey Excel 10 wind genny, 12KW Kohler generator, two Outback controllers and two FX inverters. He currently has a set of the Solar One SO-6-100-33/24 batteries, which have maybe a year or two left in their life. What he would like to do is add a separate battery bank - perhaps a set of LFPs (like SimpliPhi). He wants a set up where, when his Solar One batteries are full, the excess voltage 'automatically' charges his secondary battery bank. I am wondering if a dump load controller would suffice (so when his Solar One batteries are full, excess voltage is dumped to the secondary battery bank), but I'm not getting much help from any manufacturers as to what might work. Any suggestions? Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Nov 12 19:38:17 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:38:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging two battery banks In-Reply-To: <032201d47ab7$fffafe30$fff0fa90$@OasisMontana.com> References: <032201d47ab7$fffafe30$fff0fa90$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <89fcde0a-e1ed-5578-dbde-b2772c88393a@solarray.com> I don't think I quite see the advantage of that plan.  The HUPs do not die with quick catastrophic failures like L16s often do. They usually just slowly lose a little capacity each year, begin to use a bit more water, and become a bit less efficient in charging.  How old are the HUPs and what are the symptoms that lead him to think they are on their last legs? As far as the charging 2 batteries scenario, I suppose you could set that up with a relay controlled by a SOC meter.  The Midnite Classic I believe has that capability when used with their WhizBang Jr.  Diversion load is a possibility as you thought, but it just sounds like a lot of trouble.  He might get 5 more years from the HUPs, and by then the Li+ pricing will have dropped more. If you do the 2 battery bank scenario, you also have to set up some fairly high amp transfer switching, and figure out whether that would be manual or automatic as well.  The closest I've seen folks do that is using a Marine type battery selector.  It works, but no inspector is going to ever let that fly.  LEt us know what you come up with.  I've had a few customers want that over the years. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/12/18 11:46 AM, chris at OasisMontana.com wrote: > > Dear people: > > I have a customer with a solar array for his 24V system, Bergey Excel > 10 wind genny, 12KW Kohler generator, two Outback controllers and two > FX inverters.He currently has a set of the Solar One SO-6-100-33/24 > batteries, which have maybe a year or two left in their life.What he > would like to do is add a separate battery bank – perhaps a set of > LFPs (like SimpliPhi).He wants a set up where, when his Solar One > batteries are full, the excess voltage ‘automatically’ charges his > secondary battery bank. > > I am wondering if a dump load controller would suffice (so when his > Solar One batteries are full, excess voltage is dumped to the > secondary battery bank), but I’m not getting much help from any > manufacturers as to what might work.Any suggestions? > > Best, > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louis at solarcowboyz.com Mon Nov 12 20:00:27 2018 From: louis at solarcowboyz.com (louis at solarcowboyz.com) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 18:00:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW4024 not selling. Message-ID: <20181112180027.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.298201d55f.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Nov 12 15:44:18 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 12:44:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging two battery banks In-Reply-To: <032201d47ab7$fffafe30$fff0fa90$@OasisMontana.com> References: <032201d47ab7$fffafe30$fff0fa90$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Chris, When I do this for a client, I add a second inverter/charger and make a completely redundant system. This way it can be powered from the DC bus or AC trickle charged which is very easy to automate. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 11:46:18 -0700, wrote: Dear people: I have a customer with a solar array for his 24V system, Bergey Excel 10 wind genny, 12KW Kohler generator, two Outback controllers and two FX inverters. He currently has a set of the Solar One SO-6-100-33/24 batteries, which have maybe a year or two left in their life. What he would like to do is add a separate battery bank - perhaps a set of LFPs (like SimpliPhi). He wants a set up where, when his Solar One batteries are full, the excess voltage 'automatically' charges his secondary battery bank. I am wondering if a dump load controller would suffice (so when his Solar One batteries are full, excess voltage is dumped to the secondary battery bank), but I'm not getting much help from any manufacturers as to what might work. Any suggestions? Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com [3] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 14:26:11 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 11:26:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vaccine refrigeration Message-ID: <89975644-3727-4B37-B169-12055509071E@gmail.com> Hi all I’m looking for recommendations on vaccine refrigeration. It’s for buddy in west pacific which was just pounded by strongest typhoon ever. Thx Jay Peltz Power. From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Nov 13 15:22:01 2018 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 14:22:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vaccine refrigeration In-Reply-To: <89975644-3727-4B37-B169-12055509071E@gmail.com> References: <89975644-3727-4B37-B169-12055509071E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9199C94F-5E26-43BA-AC7B-967ED836709B@mavericksolar.com> I recommend the Engel AC/DC frig/freezer. Like the MR040F or similar size. I’ve had one running for 6-8 years. No issues. https://www.engelcoolers.com/shop/12-volt-fridge-freezers/mr040f-u1.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrZe-2pjS3gIVDdvACh0aWQSWEAYYAiABEgIB6PD_BwE Thank you, Maverick > On Nov 13, 2018, at 1:26 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all > > I’m looking for recommendations on vaccine refrigeration. > It’s for buddy in west pacific which was just pounded by strongest typhoon ever. > > Thx > Jay > Peltz Power. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Tue Nov 13 15:24:59 2018 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 20:24:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vaccine refrigeration In-Reply-To: <9199C94F-5E26-43BA-AC7B-967ED836709B@mavericksolar.com> References: <89975644-3727-4B37-B169-12055509071E@gmail.com>, <9199C94F-5E26-43BA-AC7B-967ED836709B@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Also check out SunDanzer https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrJ7FSCMutbuckAaSxXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1542169346/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fsundanzer.com%2f/RK=2/RS=iPLoO5LL4ZF40F4XfCbKPSu2Bi8- Best regards, Lloyd Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Maverick Brown Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 3:22:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Vaccine refrigeration I recommend the Engel AC/DC frig/freezer. Like the MR040F or similar size. I’ve had one running for 6-8 years. No issues. https://www.engelcoolers.com/shop/12-volt-fridge-freezers/mr040f-u1.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrZe-2pjS3gIVDdvACh0aWQSWEAYYAiABEgIB6PD_BwE Thank you, Maverick On Nov 13, 2018, at 1:26 PM, Jay > wrote: Hi all I’m looking for recommendations on vaccine refrigeration. It’s for buddy in west pacific which was just pounded by strongest typhoon ever. Thx Jay Peltz Power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 15:47:33 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 10:47:33 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vaccine refrigeration In-Reply-To: <9199C94F-5E26-43BA-AC7B-967ED836709B@mavericksolar.com> References: <89975644-3727-4B37-B169-12055509071E@gmail.com> <9199C94F-5E26-43BA-AC7B-967ED836709B@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Jay I have done ACDC refrigeration, how big of a unit are you looking for, apartment size or container size. Bigger is almost easier, need info before. Jerry On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 10:22 AM Maverick Brown I recommend the Engel AC/DC frig/freezer. Like the MR040F or similar size. > I’ve had one running for 6-8 years. No issues. > > > https://www.engelcoolers.com/shop/12-volt-fridge-freezers/mr040f-u1.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrZe-2pjS3gIVDdvACh0aWQSWEAYYAiABEgIB6PD_BwE > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > > On Nov 13, 2018, at 1:26 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all > > I’m looking for recommendations on vaccine refrigeration. > It’s for buddy in west pacific which was just pounded by strongest typhoon > ever. > > Thx > Jay > Peltz Power. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Nov 13 15:37:02 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 12:37:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vaccine refrigeration In-Reply-To: <89975644-3727-4B37-B169-12055509071E@gmail.com> References: <89975644-3727-4B37-B169-12055509071E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I use Stecca. They are designed for what you want, they are bulletproof, soft start from a car battery. They are 12V or 24V. Some of my clients use them for long summer drives to Costco. Just load it in the back of the truck and plug into a cigarette lighter. I think the max I ever see is 45 watts. They can be set as a freezer or reefer and anywhere in between. There is a reason the german engineering is worth paying for. Hope the smoke is not bad up there! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 11:26:11 -0800, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > I’m looking for recommendations on vaccine refrigeration. > It’s for buddy in west pacific which was just pounded by strongest typhoon > ever. > > Thx > Jay > Peltz Power. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 16:18:28 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 13:18:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vaccine refrigeration In-Reply-To: References: <89975644-3727-4B37-B169-12055509071E@gmail.com> <9199C94F-5E26-43BA-AC7B-967ED836709B@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <5EE43883-7B86-4009-B00F-8611D48699BB@gmail.com> Hi Jerry Vaccine refrigeration Jay > On Nov 13, 2018, at 12:47 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Jay > I have done ACDC refrigeration, how big of a unit are you looking for, apartment size or container size. Bigger is almost easier, need info before. > Jerry > >> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 10:22 AM Maverick Brown > I recommend the Engel AC/DC frig/freezer. Like the MR040F or similar size. I’ve had one running for 6-8 years. No issues. >> >> https://www.engelcoolers.com/shop/12-volt-fridge-freezers/mr040f-u1.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrZe-2pjS3gIVDdvACh0aWQSWEAYYAiABEgIB6PD_BwE >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> >>> On Nov 13, 2018, at 1:26 PM, Jay wrote: >>> >>> Hi all >>> >>> I’m looking for recommendations on vaccine refrigeration. >>> It’s for buddy in west pacific which was just pounded by strongest typhoon ever. >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> Peltz Power. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 19:57:39 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 16:57:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging two battery banks In-Reply-To: <032201d47ab7$fffafe30$fff0fa90$@OasisMontana.com> References: <032201d47ab7$fffafe30$fff0fa90$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Chris You can set up a DC side load dump, l would look at the Blue Ion battery system because of the great BMS, l have done systems with OutBack dumping to all kinds of loads, just need to make sure the charge volts are high enough for both systems Jerry On Nov 12, 2018 9:03 AM, wrote: Dear people: I have a customer with a solar array for his 24V system, Bergey Excel 10 wind genny, 12KW Kohler generator, two Outback controllers and two FX inverters. He currently has a set of the Solar One SO-6-100-33/24 batteries, which have maybe a year or two left in their life. What he would like to do is add a separate battery bank – perhaps a set of LFPs (like SimpliPhi). He wants a set up where, when his Solar One batteries are full, the excess voltage ‘automatically’ charges his secondary battery bank. I am wondering if a dump load controller would suffice (so when his Solar One batteries are full, excess voltage is dumped to the secondary battery bank), but I’m not getting much help from any manufacturers as to what might work. Any suggestions? Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfoster at nmsu.edu Wed Nov 14 17:47:34 2018 From: rfoster at nmsu.edu (Robert Foster) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 22:47:34 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vaccine refrigeration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay, Check out the WHO approved SunDanzer direct drive vaccine efrigerator. No batteries with a 2°C phase change material freezing point so you never can freeze the vaccine. The thermal storage PCM in the walls is good for about a week of cold under hot ambient conditions. I had an early direct drive prototype I let run for 10 years at NMSU with no issues before I returned the unit to the manufacturer. This approach revolutionized solar vaccine refrigeration. See sundanzer.com under medical Good luck, Robert Foster Message: 1 Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 13:18:28 -0800 From: Jay To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Vaccine refrigeration Message-ID: <5EE43883-7B86-4009-B00F-8611D48699BB at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi Jerry Vaccine refrigeration Jay > On Nov 13, 2018, at 12:47 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Jay > I have done ACDC refrigeration, how big of a unit are you looking for, apartment size or container size. Bigger is almost easier, need info before. > Jerry > >> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 10:22 AM Maverick Brown > I recommend the Engel AC/DC frig/freezer. Like the MR040F or similar size. I?ve had one running for 6-8 years. No issues. >> >> https://www.engelcoolers.com/shop/12-volt-fridge-freezers/mr040f-u1.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrZe-2pjS3gIVDdvACh0aWQSWEAYYAiABEgIB6PD_BwE >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> >>> On Nov 13, 2018, at 1:26 PM, Jay wrote: >>> >>> Hi all >>> >>> I?m looking for recommendations on vaccine refrigeration. >>> It?s for buddy in west pacific which was just pounded by strongest typhoon ever. >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> Peltz Power. >> >> Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 11, Issue 362 ******************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stevemccarney54 at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 07:49:33 2018 From: stevemccarney54 at gmail.com (Steve McCarney) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:49:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vaccine refrigeration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi I agree that SunDanzer battery, free solar direct drive (SDD) fridges have revoluntionized the solar vaccine fridge market. Two of their fridges are WHO preqaulaified thrugh extensive testing that approvees a product for sale through the UN. If you need a freezer too then SunDaner has also pioneered SDD freezers for immunization ice pack freezing. If the health facility also needs some power for lights, fan and small battery recharging (e.g.cell phone, laptop, fetal doppler) then check out the B Medical Systes Health Center Kit that is approved by WHO to be coupled to a B Medical SDD vaccine frdge (or SDD fridge freeer combination). WHO calls that category of products "Energy Harvesting" and the control system always priorities the vaccine fridge power first and then harvests the excess for user selected loads, about 500 Wh/day are presently availalbe and more in the future is the hope. If the energy harvest control fails it does take down the fridge. Steve McCarney Directorr Cold Chain Solutions Solar Elecrtric Light Fund On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 4:47 PM Robert Foster wrote: > Hi Jay, > > > Check out the WHO approved SunDanzer direct drive vaccine efrigerator. No > batteries with a 2°C phase change material freezing point so you never can > freeze the vaccine. The thermal storage PCM in the walls is good for about > a week of cold under hot ambient conditions. I had an early direct > drive prototype I let run for 10 years at NMSU with no issues before I > returned the unit to the manufacturer. This approach revolutionized solar > vaccine refrigeration. > > > See > > > sundanzer.com > > > under medical > > > Good luck, > > > Robert Foster > > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 13:18:28 -0800 > From: Jay > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Vaccine refrigeration > Message-ID: <5EE43883-7B86-4009-B00F-8611D48699BB at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi Jerry > > Vaccine refrigeration > > Jay > > > On Nov 13, 2018, at 12:47 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > > > Jay > > I have done ACDC refrigeration, how big of a unit are you looking for, > apartment size or container size. Bigger is almost easier, need info > before. > > Jerry > > > >> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 10:22 AM Maverick Brown < > maverick at mavericksolar.com wrote: > >> I recommend the Engel AC/DC frig/freezer. Like the MR040F or similar > size. I?ve had one running for 6-8 years. No issues. > >> > >> > https://www.engelcoolers.com/shop/12-volt-fridge-freezers/mr040f-u1.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrZe-2pjS3gIVDdvACh0aWQSWEAYYAiABEgIB6PD_BwE > >> > >> Thank you, > >> > >> Maverick > >> > >> > >>> On Nov 13, 2018, at 1:26 PM, Jay wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi all > >>> > >>> I?m looking for recommendations on vaccine refrigeration. > >>> It?s for buddy in west pacific which was just pounded by strongest > typhoon ever. > >>> > >>> Thx > >>> Jay > >>> Peltz Power. > >> > >> > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 11, Issue 362 > ******************************************** > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Nov 15 16:01:16 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 14:01:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2 wire to 3 wire start on Older ONAN 12.5JC Message-ID: <001e01d47d26$5af6a5d0$10e3f170$@solarwork.com> All Wise ones: I have a client who purchased an ONAN 12.5JC that was in standby service from a SoCal school desert installation. It turns out it is a 3-wire start. I know there are a few 3-wire to 2-wire start converter boxes out there and some are VERY complicated to program & are marginally reliable or appropriate due to phantom loads for an off-grid installation. What are your recommendations, please? Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Nov 16 05:35:19 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 05:35:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2 wire to 3 wire start on Older ONAN 12.5JC In-Reply-To: <001e01d47d26$5af6a5d0$10e3f170$@solarwork.com> References: <001e01d47d26$5af6a5d0$10e3f170$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <02E2A32F-A1AA-46EC-B1E4-C16EF52B30B4@swnl.net> ATKINSON ELECTRONICS, INC. Web Site: www.atkinsonelectronics.com While these might seem complicated they are well thought out and easy to program despite the many pages of instructions. A simple jumper wire and then pressing the select button will scroll you thru the various settings. Using a DVOM one sets the voltage 0-5 vdc for the setting. One can set them up for monitoring house battery voltage, starter battery, daily run-monthly run. Once you understand and are not overwhelmed by the enclosed paper work they work well. Need fuses to protect the unit and a momentary on button to reset the unit, we usually install them in a plastic box w/ a clear cover so we can see indicator lights & or lock out light requiring a push of the momentary button. > On Nov 15, 2018, at 4:01 PM, Dana wrote: > > All Wise ones: > I have a client who purchased an ONAN 12.5JC that was in standby service from a SoCal school desert installation. It turns out it is a 3-wire start. > I know there are a few 3-wire to 2-wire start converter boxes out there and some are VERY complicated to program & are marginally reliable or appropriate due to phantom loads for an off-grid installation. > > What are your recommendations, please? > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Nov 16 07:38:06 2018 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 07:38:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEED Sharp NU-Q235 F2 module Message-ID: <209911A0-135A-4F76-85C2-6BB98722B6F9@swnl.net> Wrenches I am in need of at least 1 Sharp NU-Q235 F2 module, If there are 2 available I would be happy to get them both. Please contact me off list. THANKS in advance TUMP > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 11:05:14 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 08:05:14 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Message-ID: <545F9F32-2DF9-4858-AA5E-45D6BA389246@gmail.com> HI All, I’m wondering if anyone else is having mate 3s locking up problems? I’ve got 2 systems that have had this happen. One is a big system ( 2 radians and 5 CC). Of course its a long ways away and no there isn’t internet so no OpticsRE. Its been reprogramed with latest REV firmware. No change. thx jay peltz power From atruitt at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 13:49:20 2018 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 11:49:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microfractures Message-ID: Wrenches - Does anyone have experience getting electroluminescence (EL) test results from module manufacturers? I just shot some module IV curves as part of an acceptance test and they all show some irregularities on the vertical slope that Solmetric says are indicative of microfractures: [image: image.png] It seems the optimal course of action here is to perform EL testing on a random sample of mods in the field and compare with images from the factory to hone in on the root cause. However field EL testing is not cheap and even if we do determine that the damage occured after modules left the factory, how could it be proven if its the shipper or the EPC at fault? I foresee everyone pushing back and invoking the performance warranty as the backstop if issues pop up in the future (assuming nothing shows up during performance testing next month), but the last thing we want deal with is a massive (or worse, piecemeal) warranty claim in 5 years. Or the array may mildly underperform year over year, not enough to trigger warranties but still costing thousands in lost revenue. The system is a 200kW ground mount in CO using tier 1 (top 5) Chinese modules. Anyone dealt with this type of situation before? *Regards, * *Andrew Truitt* www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 73339 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Fri Nov 16 15:41:36 2018 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 20:41:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: <545F9F32-2DF9-4858-AA5E-45D6BA389246@gmail.com> References: <545F9F32-2DF9-4858-AA5E-45D6BA389246@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello All And Hello Jay I just asked the tech support boss on this as I had no idea. He has a test setup that allows him to switch individuals lines on the cat5 cables. We can duplicate Jay's screen shot below by opening the some of the lines to the cat 5 cable. [cid:image003.jpg at 01D47DA9.B5D61C00] So as a start try replacing the cat5 between the Mate3S and the Hub. Using the silicone grease that comes with a Mate is never a bad idea. If your customer does not have a cable on hand I would try removing the cable several times perhaps that could help to dislodge any corrosion or dust on the connections. I hope this helps. Take Care All -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ HI All, I'm wondering if anyone else is having mate 3s locking up problems? I've got 2 systems that have had this happen. One is a big system ( 2 radians and 5 CC). Of course its a long ways away and no there isn't internet so no OpticsRE. Its been reprogramed with latest REV firmware. No change. thx jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6354 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 19:27:31 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 16:27:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microfractures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Andrew, Wrenches While in Hawaii, l had modules that had fractures, some showed up in low performance, some did not and l don't recall there being a wobble on the high side. I would suggest inspecting what the modules look in question. Most of the time the cracks are visable and may look like worm tracks, they will be across the modules. Also look for what appears to be cigarette burns, this is trace arcing or at least overheating of the trace and they can appear at the interconnecting trace or main traces mostly at the change in direction of the trace. I have also had bad bypass diode connections have issues effecting performance curves. Jerry NABCEP Inspector NABCEP Installer On Fri, Nov 16, 2018, 12:03 PM Andrew Truitt > > Wrenches - Does anyone have experience getting electroluminescence (EL) > test results from module manufacturers? I just shot some module IV curves > as part of an acceptance test and they all show some irregularities on the > vertical slope that Solmetric says are indicative of microfractures: > > [image: image.png] > > > It seems the optimal course of action here is to perform EL testing on a > random sample of mods in the field and compare with images from the factory > to hone in on the root cause. However field EL testing is not cheap and > even if we do determine that the damage occured after modules left the > factory, how could it be proven if its the shipper or the EPC at fault? I > foresee everyone pushing back and invoking the performance warranty as the > backstop if issues pop up in the future (assuming nothing shows up during > performance testing next month), but the last thing we want deal with is a > massive (or worse, piecemeal) warranty claim in 5 years. Or the array may > mildly underperform year over year, not enough to trigger warranties but > still costing thousands in lost revenue. The system is a 200kW ground > mount in CO using tier 1 (top 5) Chinese modules. Anyone dealt with this > type of situation before? > > > > *Regards, * > > > *Andrew Truitt* > > www.dr.ventures > d: 202.486.7507 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 > Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 > > [image: Logo] > > > > The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient > specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of > this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. > If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and > follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not > occur in the future. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 73339 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Nov 16 17:14:55 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 14:14:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: References: <545F9F32-2DF9-4858-AA5E-45D6BA389246@gmail.com> Message-ID: <806731a4aeccc916a1a1ae8c56b44f97@mail.gmail.com> Jay: I have problems with all of my Mate3 and 3s controllers locking up. So much so that I have implemented the following steps: 1. For most installations I leave the hub wire cover off and label the Mate lead. Clients are instructed to unplug and re-plug the Cat5 lead whenever the Mate locks up. 2. On one installation I have a Control By Web unit ping both Mate3 units every 5 minutes. If either fails to respond after 3 attempts, a relay opens and closes the Orange/white leads which power cycles the Mates. Locking up of Mates is a fact of life with Outback equipment. I love the equipment and I hate the equipment. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Lones Tuss *Sent:* Friday, November 16, 2018 12:42 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Hello All And Hello Jay I just asked the tech support boss on this as I had no idea. He has a test setup that allows him to switch individuals lines on the cat5 cables. We can duplicate Jay’s screen shot below by opening the some of the lines to the cat 5 cable. So as a start try replacing the cat5 between the Mate3S and the Hub. Using the silicone grease that comes with a Mate is never a bad idea. If your customer does not have a cable on hand I would try removing the cable several times perhaps that could help to dislodge any corrosion or dust on the connections. I hope this helps. Take Care All -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ HI All, I’m wondering if anyone else is having mate 3s locking up problems? I’ve got 2 systems that have had this happen. One is a big system ( 2 radians and 5 CC). Of course its a long ways away and no there isn’t internet so no OpticsRE. Its been reprogramed with latest REV firmware. No change. thx jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6354 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 22:39:26 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 19:39:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: <806731a4aeccc916a1a1ae8c56b44f97@mail.gmail.com> References: <545F9F32-2DF9-4858-AA5E-45D6BA389246@gmail.com> <806731a4aeccc916a1a1ae8c56b44f97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <30C5BDC7-D768-4B61-AB37-5E3A4C68326D@gmail.com> Hi william Very tech fix with the relay! Fortunately or unfortunately there is no reliable web at the location but someone who manually checks things. Yes the 3s still has some of the same problems Thx Jay Peltz power. > On Nov 16, 2018, at 2:14 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Jay: > > I have problems with all of my Mate3 and 3s controllers locking up. So much so that I have implemented the following steps: > > 1. For most installations I leave the hub wire cover off and label the Mate lead. Clients are instructed to unplug and re-plug the Cat5 lead whenever the Mate locks up. > 2. On one installation I have a Control By Web unit ping both Mate3 units every 5 minutes. If either fails to respond after 3 attempts, a relay opens and closes the Orange/white leads which power cycles the Mates. > > Locking up of Mates is a fact of life with Outback equipment. I love the equipment and I hate the equipment. > > William > > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lones Tuss > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:42 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking > > Hello All > And > Hello Jay > I just asked the tech support boss on this as I had no idea. > He has a test setup that allows him to switch individuals lines on the cat5 cables. > We can duplicate Jay’s screen shot below by opening the some of the lines to the cat 5 cable. > > > So as a start try replacing the cat5 between the Mate3S and the Hub. > Using the silicone grease that comes with a Mate is never a bad idea. > If your customer does not have a cable on hand I would try removing the cable several times perhaps that could help to dislodge any corrosion or dust on the connections. > > I hope this helps. > Take Care All > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:05 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking > > ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ > > HI All, > > I’m wondering if anyone else is having mate 3s locking up problems? > > I’ve got 2 systems that have had this happen. > > One is a big system ( 2 radians and 5 CC). Of course its a long ways away and no there isn’t internet so no OpticsRE. > > Its been reprogramed with latest REV firmware. No change. > > thx > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Nov 17 10:43:09 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 10:43:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: <30C5BDC7-D768-4B61-AB37-5E3A4C68326D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> It seems like Outback has too many problems now, with the Mate 3 and the discontinuation of the original, excellent FX inverters. I had a Mate 3 loose its programming on an AC coupled system so that the batteries had no protective relay until the Mate 3 was reprogrammed. Tech support said that this happens with the Mate 3. That is unacceptable. Fortunately it was a dual FX system, and I had the original Mate to put back on it. How do the Xantrex / Schneider products compare regarding reliability and user friendliness?  Are there any downsides to using this equipment. I'm considering going full circle back to this line. Thanks, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: , "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 19:39:26 -0800 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Hi william Very tech fix with the relay! Fortunately or unfortunately there is no reliable web at the location but someone who manually checks things.  Yes the 3s still has some of the same problems  Thx Jay Peltz power.  On Nov 16, 2018, at 2:14 PM, William Miller wrote: Jay:   I have problems with all of my Mate3 and 3s controllers locking up.  So much so that I have implemented the following steps:   1.     For most installations I leave the hub wire cover off and label the Mate lead.  Clients are instructed to unplug and re-plug the Cat5 lead whenever the Mate locks up. 2.     On one installation I have a Control By Web unit ping both Mate3 units every 5 minutes.  If either fails to respond after 3 attempts, a relay opens and closes the Orange/white leads which power cycles the Mates.    Locking up of Mates is a fact of life with Outback equipment.  I love the equipment and I hate the equipment.   William       Lic 773985 millersolar.com [2] 805-438-5600   FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [3]] ON BEHALF OF Lones Tuss SENT: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:42 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking   Hello All And Hello Jay I just asked the tech support boss on this as I had no idea. He has a test setup that allows him to switch individuals lines on the cat5 cables. We can duplicate Jay’s  screen shot below by opening the some of the lines to the cat 5 cable.   So as a start try replacing the cat5 between the Mate3S and the Hub. Using the silicone grease that comes with a Mate is never a bad idea. If your customer does not have a cable on hand I would try removing the cable several times perhaps that could help to dislodge any corrosion or dust on the connections.   I hope this helps. Take Care All     -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking   ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________   HI All,   I’m wondering if anyone else is having mate 3s locking up problems?   I’ve got 2 systems that have had this happen.   One is a big system ( 2 radians and 5 CC).  Of course its a long ways away and no there isn’t internet so no OpticsRE.   Its been reprogramed with latest REV firmware.  No change.   thx   jay   peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance   List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6]   Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7]   List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [8]   List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9]   Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [10]   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [13] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] Links: ------ [1] mailto:william at millersolar.com [2] http://www.millersolar.com/ [3] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Nov 17 12:01:21 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 09:01:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: <30C5BDC7-D768-4B61-AB37-5E3A4C68326D@gmail.com> References: <545F9F32-2DF9-4858-AA5E-45D6BA389246@gmail.com> <806731a4aeccc916a1a1ae8c56b44f97@mail.gmail.com> <30C5BDC7-D768-4B61-AB37-5E3A4C68326D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, Is there cell? If so use a cradlepoint. I do this with combox and it is very reliable. A bit slow but I can change anything in the system. I have not tried it with Outback Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 19:39:26 -0800, Jay wrote: Hi william Very tech fix with the relay! Fortunately or unfortunately there is no reliable web at the location but someone who manually checks things. Yes the 3s still has some of the same problems Thx Jay Peltz power. On Nov 16, 2018, at 2:14 PM, William Miller wrote: Jay: I have problems with all of my Mate3 and 3s controllers locking up. So much so that I have implemented the following steps: 1. For most installations I leave the hub wire cover off and label the Mate lead. Clients are instructed to unplug and re-plug the Cat5 lead whenever the Mate locks up. 2. On one installation I have a Control By Web unit ping both Mate3 units every 5 minutes. If either fails to respond after 3 attempts, a relay opens and closes the Orange/white leads which power cycles the Mates. Locking up of Mates is a fact of life with Outback equipment. I love the equipment and I hate the equipment. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com [4] 805-438-5600 FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [5]] ON BEHALF OF Lones Tuss SENT: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:42 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Hello All And Hello Jay I just asked the tech support boss on this as I had no idea. He has a test setup that allows him to switch individuals lines on the cat5 cables. We can duplicate Jay's screen shot below by opening the some of the lines to the cat 5 cable. So as a start try replacing the cat5 between the Mate3S and the Hub. Using the silicone grease that comes with a Mate is never a bad idea. If your customer does not have a cable on hand I would try removing the cable several times perhaps that could help to dislodge any corrosion or dust on the connections. I hope this helps. Take Care All -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ HI All, I'm wondering if anyone else is having mate 3s locking up problems? I've got 2 systems that have had this happen. One is a big system ( 2 radians and 5 CC). Of course its a long ways away and no there isn't internet so no OpticsRE. Its been reprogramed with latest REV firmware. No change. thx jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] List rules border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:william at millersolar.com [4] http://www.millersolar.com/ [5] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [16] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Nov 17 11:57:50 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 08:57:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <2a4bd197cb6a7ee41cd144409f463cfb@127.0.0.1> Hi Drake, I use both Outback and Schneider for my 200+ offgrid clients. Since the 600v mppt came out in 2011 Schneider gets my business. I also test for them and I am now working on the XW Pro for circuit validation testing and new cloud based gateway replacement for Combox in an EFT. As for user friendly, it is something new to learn and once a client gets up to speed it is pretty easy, I think! Some of my clients do not like all of this tech stuff and just want reliable power. I get it! There were early problems with combox firmware that got solved. The new Conext gateway allows me to monitor my clients without special port forwarding and easy with cell. The Insight monitoring similar to Optics but easier to use occasionally has had issues but nothing that took long for them to fix. There is also a tablet ap. You can contact me offline and I agree that it is pretty bad when issues take too long to resolve. maybe Outback will get it done! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 10:43:09 -0500, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: It seems like Outback has too many problems now, with the Mate 3 and the discontinuation of the original, excellent FX inverters. I had a Mate 3 loose its programming on an AC coupled system so that the batteries had no protective relay until the Mate 3 was reprogrammed. Tech support said that this happens with the Mate 3. That is unacceptable. Fortunately it was a dual FX system, and I had the original Mate to put back on it. How do the Xantrex / Schneider products compare regarding reliability and user friendliness? Are there any downsides to using this equipment. I'm considering going full circle back to this line. Thanks, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: , "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 19:39:26 -0800 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Hi william Very tech fix with the relay! Fortunately or unfortunately there is no reliable web at the location but someone who manually checks things. Yes the 3s still has some of the same problems Thx Jay Peltz power. On Nov 16, 2018, at 2:14 PM, William Miller wrote: Jay: I have problems with all of my Mate3 and 3s controllers locking up. So much so that I have implemented the following steps: 1. For most installations I leave the hub wire cover off and label the Mate lead. Clients are instructed to unplug and re-plug the Cat5 lead whenever the Mate locks up. 2. On one installation I have a Control By Web unit ping both Mate3 units every 5 minutes. If either fails to respond after 3 attempts, a relay opens and closes the Orange/white leads which power cycles the Mates. Locking up of Mates is a fact of life with Outback equipment. I love the equipment and I hate the equipment. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com [4] 805-438-5600 FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [5]] ON BEHALF OF Lones Tuss SENT: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:42 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Hello All And Hello Jay I just asked the tech support boss on this as I had no idea. He has a test setup that allows him to switch individuals lines on the cat5 cables. We can duplicate Jay's screen shot below by opening the some of the lines to the cat 5 cable. So as a start try replacing the cat5 between the Mate3S and the Hub. Using the silicone grease that comes with a Mate is never a bad idea. If your customer does not have a cable on hand I would try removing the cable several times perhaps that could help to dislodge any corrosion or dust on the connections. I hope this helps. Take Care All -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ HI All, I'm wondering if anyone else is having mate 3s locking up problems? I've got 2 systems that have had this happen. One is a big system ( 2 radians and 5 CC). Of course its a long ways away and no there isn't internet so no OpticsRE. Its been reprogramed with latest REV firmware. No change. thx jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] List rules border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:william at millersolar.com [4] http://www.millersolar.com/ [5] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [16] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Sat Nov 17 14:48:47 2018 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2018 19:48:47 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2 wire to 3 wire start on Older ONAN 12.5JC In-Reply-To: <02E2A32F-A1AA-46EC-B1E4-C16EF52B30B4@swnl.net> References: <001e01d47d26$5af6a5d0$10e3f170$@solarwork.com>, <02E2A32F-A1AA-46EC-B1E4-C16EF52B30B4@swnl.net> Message-ID: I absolutely agree. The Atkinson AGSCM is really good and super reliable. They work on almost every generator I can think of. They are the most universal auto Gen starts available. Thanks, Kienan On Nov 16, 2018, at 3:35 AM, Tump > wrote: ATKINSON ELECTRONICS, INC. Web Site: www.atkinsonelectronics.com While these might seem complicated they are well thought out and easy to program despite the many pages of instructions. A simple jumper wire and then pressing the select button will scroll you thru the various settings. Using a DVOM one sets the voltage 0-5 vdc for the setting. One can set them up for monitoring house battery voltage, starter battery, daily run-monthly run. Once you understand and are not overwhelmed by the enclosed paper work they work well. Need fuses to protect the unit and a momentary on button to reset the unit, we usually install them in a plastic box w/ a clear cover so we can see indicator lights & or lock out light requiring a push of the momentary button. On Nov 15, 2018, at 4:01 PM, Dana > wrote: All Wise ones: I have a client who purchased an ONAN 12.5JC that was in standby service from a SoCal school desert installation. It turns out it is a 3-wire start. I know there are a few 3-wire to 2-wire start converter boxes out there and some are VERY complicated to program & are marginally reliable or appropriate due to phantom loads for an off-grid installation. What are your recommendations, please? Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sun Nov 18 10:41:49 2018 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:41:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <30C5BDC7-D768-4B61-AB37-5E3A4C68326D@gmail.com> <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake, It took me years to try Trace/Xantrex/Schneider products after swearing off Xantrex in 2004, becoming an Outback devotee for a decade. I finally soured on Outback a few years ago after several years of poor customer service and a sense that Outback was not keeping up in general. I had tried Magnum early on and had a bad experience with them and the Sunny Island, while a robust machine, was definitely getting outdated, so I finally decided to give Schneider a try. While there are always things I wish could be better in all the various choices (which is true for the XW as well), I've stuck with Schneider for a few years now and have been happy with them. I did try the SWa couple of times, but the small cost savings doesn't feel worth the lesser capabilities over the XW. And their customer service has been pretty consistently good. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 10:43 AM It seems like Outback has too many problems now, with the Mate 3 and the > discontinuation of the original, excellent FX inverters. I had a Mate 3 > loose its programming on an AC coupled system so that the batteries had no > protective relay until the Mate 3 was reprogrammed. Tech support said that > this happens with the Mate 3. That is unacceptable. Fortunately it was a > dual FX system, and I had the original Mate to put back on it. > > How do the Xantrex / Schneider products compare regarding reliability and > user friendliness? Are there any downsides to using this equipment. I'm > considering going full circle back to this line. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > "RE-wrenches" > > To: > , "RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > Cc: > > Sent: > Fri, 16 Nov 2018 19:39:26 -0800 > Subject: > Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking > > > Hi william > > Very tech fix with the relay! > > Fortunately or unfortunately there is no reliable web at the location but > someone who manually checks things. > > Yes the 3s still has some of the same problems > > Thx > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > On Nov 16, 2018, at 2:14 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > Jay: > > > > I have problems with all of my Mate3 and 3s controllers locking up. So > much so that I have implemented the following steps: > > > > 1. For most installations I leave the hub wire cover off and label > the Mate lead. Clients are instructed to unplug and re-plug the Cat5 lead > whenever the Mate locks up. > > 2. On one installation I have a Control By Web unit ping both Mate3 > units every 5 minutes. If either fails to respond after 3 attempts, a > relay opens and closes the Orange/white leads which power cycles the > Mates. > > > > Locking up of Mates is a fact of life with Outback equipment. I love the > equipment and I hate the equipment. > > > > William > > > > > > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Lones Tuss > *Sent:* Friday, November 16, 2018 12:42 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking > > > > Hello All > > And > > Hello Jay > > I just asked the tech support boss on this as I had no idea. > > He has a test setup that allows him to switch individuals lines on the > cat5 cables. > > We can duplicate Jay’s screen shot below by opening the some of the lines > to the cat 5 cable. > > > > > > So as a start try replacing the cat5 between the Mate3S and the Hub. > > Using the silicone grease that comes with a Mate is never a bad idea. > > If your customer does not have a cable on hand I would try removing the > cable several times perhaps that could help to dislodge any corrosion or > dust on the connections. > > > > I hope this helps. > > Take Care All > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of jay > > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:05 AM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking > > > > ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or > requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** > ________________________________ > > > > HI All, > > > > I’m wondering if anyone else is having mate 3s locking up problems? > > > > I’ve got 2 systems that have had this happen. > > > > One is a big system ( 2 radians and 5 CC). Of course its a long ways away > and no there isn’t internet so no OpticsRE. > > > > Its been reprogramed with latest REV firmware. No change. > > > > thx > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Nov 18 14:56:58 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:56:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: References: <30C5BDC7-D768-4B61-AB37-5E3A4C68326D@gmail.com> <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Does Schneider have videos of how to operate the SCP etc? Jay Peltz power. > On Nov 18, 2018, at 7:41 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Drake, > It took me years to try Trace/Xantrex/Schneider products after swearing off Xantrex in 2004, becoming an Outback devotee for a decade. I finally soured on Outback a few years ago after several years of poor customer service and a sense that Outback was not keeping up in general. I had tried Magnum early on and had a bad experience with them and the Sunny Island, while a robust machine, was definitely getting outdated, so I finally decided to give Schneider a try. > While there are always things I wish could be better in all the various choices (which is true for the XW as well), I've stuck with Schneider for a few years now and have been happy with them. I did try the SWa couple of times, but the small cost savings doesn't feel worth the lesser capabilities over the XW. And their customer service has been pretty consistently good. > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > >> On Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 10:43 AM > It seems like Outback has too many problems now, with the Mate 3 and the discontinuation of the original, excellent FX inverters. I had a Mate 3 loose its programming on an AC coupled system so that the batteries had no protective relay until the Mate 3 was reprogrammed. Tech support said that this happens with the Mate 3. That is unacceptable. Fortunately it was a dual FX system, and I had the original Mate to put back on it. >> >> How do the Xantrex / Schneider products compare regarding reliability and user friendliness? Are there any downsides to using this equipment. I'm considering going full circle back to this line. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "RE-wrenches" >> To:, "RE-wrenches" >> Cc: >> Sent:Fri, 16 Nov 2018 19:39:26 -0800 >> Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking >> >> >> Hi william >> >> Very tech fix with the relay! >> >> Fortunately or unfortunately there is no reliable web at the location but someone who manually checks things. >> >> Yes the 3s still has some of the same problems >> >> Thx >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >> >> >> On Nov 16, 2018, at 2:14 PM, William Miller wrote: >> >> Jay: >> >> >> >> I have problems with all of my Mate3 and 3s controllers locking up. So much so that I have implemented the following steps: >> >> >> >> 1. For most installations I leave the hub wire cover off and label the Mate lead. Clients are instructed to unplug and re-plug the Cat5 lead whenever the Mate locks up. >> >> 2. On one installation I have a Control By Web unit ping both Mate3 units every 5 minutes. If either fails to respond after 3 attempts, a relay opens and closes the Orange/white leads which power cycles the Mates. >> >> >> >> Locking up of Mates is a fact of life with Outback equipment. I love the equipment and I hate the equipment. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lones Tuss >> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:42 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking >> >> >> >> Hello All >> >> And >> >> Hello Jay >> >> I just asked the tech support boss on this as I had no idea. >> >> He has a test setup that allows him to switch individuals lines on the cat5 cables. >> >> We can duplicate Jay’s screen shot below by opening the some of the lines to the cat 5 cable. >> >> >> >> >> >> So as a start try replacing the cat5 between the Mate3S and the Hub. >> >> Using the silicone grease that comes with a Mate is never a bad idea. >> >> If your customer does not have a cable on hand I would try removing the cable several times perhaps that could help to dislodge any corrosion or dust on the connections. >> >> >> >> I hope this helps. >> >> Take Care All >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay >> >> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:05 AM >> >> To: RE-wrenches >> >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking >> >> >> >> ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ >> >> >> >> HI All, >> >> >> >> I’m wondering if anyone else is having mate 3s locking up problems? >> >> >> >> I’ve got 2 systems that have had this happen. >> >> >> >> One is a big system ( 2 radians and 5 CC). Of course its a long ways away and no there isn’t internet so no OpticsRE. >> >> >> >> Its been reprogramed with latest REV firmware. No change. >> >> >> >> thx >> >> >> >> jay >> >> >> >> peltz power >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Sun Nov 18 23:20:05 2018 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 21:20:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microfractures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jerry - Thanks for the input! No snail trails or burn marks at his point as the system has yet to be commissioned. There will be an aerial IR inspection once we're operating and if anything shows up it'll be addressed for sure, but my understanding of microfractures is that the effects often don't show up for years (save for what can be seen with EL testing). *Regards, * *Andrew Truitt* www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 5:27 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Andrew, Wrenches > While in Hawaii, l had modules that had fractures, some showed up in low > performance, some did not and l don't recall there being a wobble on the > high side. I would suggest inspecting what the modules look in question. > Most of the time the cracks are visable and may look like worm tracks, they > will be across the modules. Also look for what appears to be cigarette > burns, this is trace arcing or at least overheating of the trace and they > can appear at the interconnecting trace or main traces mostly at the change > in direction of the trace. I have also had bad bypass diode connections > have issues effecting performance curves. > Jerry > NABCEP Inspector > NABCEP Installer > > On Fri, Nov 16, 2018, 12:03 PM Andrew Truitt >> >> >> Wrenches - Does anyone have experience getting electroluminescence (EL) >> test results from module manufacturers? I just shot some module IV curves >> as part of an acceptance test and they all show some irregularities on the >> vertical slope that Solmetric says are indicative of microfractures: >> >> [image: image.png] >> >> >> It seems the optimal course of action here is to perform EL testing on a >> random sample of mods in the field and compare with images from the factory >> to hone in on the root cause. However field EL testing is not cheap and >> even if we do determine that the damage occured after modules left the >> factory, how could it be proven if its the shipper or the EPC at fault? I >> foresee everyone pushing back and invoking the performance warranty as the >> backstop if issues pop up in the future (assuming nothing shows up during >> performance testing next month), but the last thing we want deal with is a >> massive (or worse, piecemeal) warranty claim in 5 years. Or the array may >> mildly underperform year over year, not enough to trigger warranties but >> still costing thousands in lost revenue. The system is a 200kW ground >> mount in CO using tier 1 (top 5) Chinese modules. Anyone dealt with this >> type of situation before? >> >> >> >> *Regards, * >> >> >> *Andrew Truitt* >> >> www.dr.ventures >> d: 202.486.7507 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 >> Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 >> >> [image: Logo] >> >> >> >> The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient >> specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of >> this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. >> If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and >> follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not >> occur in the future. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 73339 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 01:21:07 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 22:21:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microfractures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5bf25657.1c69fb81.ce525.268b@mx.google.com> AndrewCorrect, its is all about time, temp cycles will all effect modules, arial IR testing generally  will not show new fractures.JerrySent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Andrew Truitt Date: 11/18/18 8:20 PM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Microfractures Jerry - Thanks for the input!  No snail trails or burn marks at his point as the system has yet to be commissioned.  There will be an aerial IR inspection once we're operating and if anything shows up it'll be addressed for sure, but my understanding of microfractures is that the effects often don't show up for years (save for what can be seen with EL testing). Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.venturesd: 202.486.7507NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future.On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 5:27 PM Jerry Shafer wrote:Andrew, WrenchesWhile in Hawaii, l had modules that had fractures, some showed up in low performance, some did not and l don't recall there being a wobble on the high side. I would suggest inspecting what the modules look in question. Most of the time the cracks are visable and may look like worm tracks, they will be across the modules. Also look for what appears to be cigarette burns, this is trace arcing or at least overheating of the trace and they can appear at the interconnecting trace or main traces mostly at the change in direction of the trace. I have also had bad bypass diode connections have issues effecting performance curves.JerryNABCEP InspectorNABCEP InstallerOn Fri, Nov 16, 2018, 12:03 PM Andrew Truitt From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Nov 19 10:18:47 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 10:18:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: References: <30C5BDC7-D768-4B61-AB37-5E3A4C68326D@gmail.com> <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: That helps confirm my decision. Our histories are much the same. Drake 10:41 AM 11/18/2018, you wrote: >Drake, >It took me years to try Trace/Xantrex/Schneider >products after swearing off Xantrex in 2004, >becoming an Outback devotee for a decade. I >finally soured on Outback a few years ago after >several years of poor customer service and a >sense that Outback was not keeping up in >general. I had tried Magnum early on and had a >bad experience with them and the Sunny Island, >while a robust machine, was definitely getting >outdated, so I finally decided to give Schneider a try. >While there are always things I wish could be >better in all the various choices (which is true >for the XW as well), I've stuck with Schneider >for a few years now and have been happy with >them. I did try the SWa couple of times, but the >small cost savings doesn't feel worth the lesser >capabilities over the XW. And their customer >service has been pretty consistently good. >Howie Michaelson >Sun Catcher > > >On Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 10:43 AM ><drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >wrote: >It seems like Outback has too many problems now, >with the Mate 3 and the discontinuation of the >original, excellent FX inverters. I had a Mate 3 >loose its programming on an AC coupled system so >that the batteries had no protective relay until >the Mate 3 was reprogrammed. Tech support said >that this happens with the Mate 3. That is >unacceptable. Fortunately it was a dual FX >system, and I had the original Mate to put back on it. > >How do the Xantrex / Schneider products compare >regarding reliability and user >friendliness? Are there any downsides to using >this equipment. I'm considering going full circle back to this line. > >Thanks, > >Drake > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >"RE-wrenches" ><re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > >To: ><william at millersolar.com>, >"RE-wrenches" ><re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >Cc: > >Sent: >Fri, 16 Nov 2018 19:39:26 -0800 >Subject: >Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking > > >Hi william > >Very tech fix with the relay! > >Fortunately or unfortunately there is no >reliable web at the location but someone who manually checks things. > >Yes the 3s still has some of the same problems > >Thx >Jay >Peltz power. > > > >On Nov 16, 2018, at 2:14 PM, William Miller ><william at millersolar.com> wrote: > >Jay: > > > >I have problems with all of my Mate3 and 3s >controllers locking up. So much so that I have >implemented the following steps: > > > >1.    For most installations I leave the >hub wire cover off and label the Mate >lead. Clients are instructed to unplug and >re-plug the Cat5 lead whenever the Mate locks up. > >2.    On one installation I have a Control >By Web unit ping both Mate3 units every 5 >minutes. If either fails to respond after 3 >attempts, a relay opens and closes the >Orange/white leads which power cycles the Mates. > > > >Locking up of Mates is a fact of life with >Outback equipment. I love the equipment and I hate the equipment. > > > >William > > > > > > > > >Lic 773985 >millersolar.com >805-438-5600 > > > >From: RE-wrenches >[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Lones Tuss >Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:42 PM >To: RE-wrenches >Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking > > > >Hello All > >And > >Hello Jay > >I just asked the tech support boss on this as I had no idea. > >He has a test setup that allows him to switch >individuals lines on the cat5 cables. > >We can duplicate Jay’s  screen shot below by >opening the some of the lines to the cat 5 cable. > > > > > >So as a start try replacing the cat5 between the Mate3S and the Hub. > >Using the silicone grease that comes with a Mate is never a bad idea. > >If your customer does not have a cable on hand I >would try removing the cable several times >perhaps that could help to dislodge any corrosion or dust on the connections. > > > >I hope this helps. > >Take Care All > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: RE-wrenches ><re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> >On Behalf Of jay > >Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:05 AM > >To: RE-wrenches ><re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > >Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking > > > >** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any >suspicious attachments, links, or requests for >sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ > > > >HI All, > > > >I’m wondering if anyone else is having mate 3s locking up problems? > > > >I’ve got 2 systems that have had this happen. > > > >One is a big system ( 2 radians and 5 CC). Of >course its a long ways away and no there isn’t internet so no OpticsRE. > > > >Its been reprogramed with latest REV firmware. No change. > > > >thx > > > >jay > > > >peltz power > >_______________________________________________ > >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > >Change listserver email address & settings: > >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > >List rules & etiquette: > >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > >Check out or update participant bios: > >www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Nov 19 11:22:32 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 08:22:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: References: <30C5BDC7-D768-4B61-AB37-5E3A4C68326D@gmail.com> <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Friends: We installed XW systems up until a few years ago and had problems similar to those with Outback but subtly different. Here is a short list of some of our complaints: 1. We have problems with the XW system communicating with the outboard/optional Automatic Generator Start modules. At one point we were told that the factory supplied cables were too short and causing “ringing” of the data signals. We changed out the leads to the prescribed 6’ leads and we are still battling intermittent communications problems with the AGS units. When the AGS does not communicate, the generator does not start when needed. The net result is power outages. 2. Schneider created frequent firmware upgrades. To my mind, this is a sign of half-baked code. The firmware update process requires an expensive AC powered dongle and an outboard AC source since the inverters shut down during firmware upgrade. Upgrading firmware on an XW system was usually a multi-hour affair. 3. Navigating the SCP is not at all intuitive, in my view. 4. The Power Distribution Panel is inadequately sized. This is not unique to Schneider, by any means. For system with more than two inverters we outsourced input and output AC distribution to outboard QO load centers. The busing of the AC breakers is via odd, claw-like bus bars. These are a bit awkward to work with and did not fit every scenario. 5. The XW system had no means to bypass more than two inverters. To illustrate these problems, see this web-page . Due to these problems we decided to concentrate on Outback and learning how to navigate the short-comings of just one brand. Not having worked with XW system for a while, I am curious: Have these problems been resolved? Thanks in advance. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jay *Sent:* Sunday, November 18, 2018 11:57 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Does Schneider have videos of how to operate the SCP etc? Jay Peltz power. On Nov 18, 2018, at 7:41 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Drake, It took me years to try Trace/Xantrex/Schneider products after swearing off Xantrex in 2004, becoming an Outback devotee for a decade. I finally soured on Outback a few years ago after several years of poor customer service and a sense that Outback was not keeping up in general. I had tried Magnum early on and had a bad experience with them and the Sunny Island, while a robust machine, was definitely getting outdated, so I finally decided to give Schneider a try. While there are always things I wish could be better in all the various choices (which is true for the XW as well), I've stuck with Schneider for a few years now and have been happy with them. I did try the SWa couple of times, but the small cost savings doesn't feel worth the lesser capabilities over the XW. And their customer service has been pretty consistently good. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 10:43 AM *To:* , "RE-wrenches" *Cc:* *Sent:* Fri, 16 Nov 2018 19:39:26 -0800 *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Hi william Very tech fix with the relay! Fortunately or unfortunately there is no reliable web at the location but someone who manually checks things. Yes the 3s still has some of the same problems Thx Jay Peltz power. On Nov 16, 2018, at 2:14 PM, William Miller wrote: Jay: I have problems with all of my Mate3 and 3s controllers locking up. So much so that I have implemented the following steps: 1. For most installations I leave the hub wire cover off and label the Mate lead. Clients are instructed to unplug and re-plug the Cat5 lead whenever the Mate locks up. 2. On one installation I have a Control By Web unit ping both Mate3 units every 5 minutes. If either fails to respond after 3 attempts, a relay opens and closes the Orange/white leads which power cycles the Mates. Locking up of Mates is a fact of life with Outback equipment. I love the equipment and I hate the equipment. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Lones Tuss *Sent:* Friday, November 16, 2018 12:42 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Hello All And Hello Jay I just asked the tech support boss on this as I had no idea. He has a test setup that allows him to switch individuals lines on the cat5 cables. We can duplicate Jay’s screen shot below by opening the some of the lines to the cat 5 cable. So as a start try replacing the cat5 between the Mate3S and the Hub. Using the silicone grease that comes with a Mate is never a bad idea. If your customer does not have a cable on hand I would try removing the cable several times perhaps that could help to dislodge any corrosion or dust on the connections. I hope this helps. Take Care All -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ HI All, I’m wondering if anyone else is having mate 3s locking up problems? I’ve got 2 systems that have had this happen. One is a big system ( 2 radians and 5 CC). Of course its a long ways away and no there isn’t internet so no OpticsRE. Its been reprogramed with latest REV firmware. No change. thx jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Nov 19 10:52:57 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:52:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: References: <30C5BDC7-D768-4B61-AB37-5E3A4C68326D@gmail.com> <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: There are dozens of SCP vids. Just do a search on youtube. Once you learn the basics it really is very simple. I keep an SCP in my tool bag but the combox is far easier for me to commision or troubleshoot a system and it will log any weird problems that a system may have. Very few do! I picked the newest vid and there are better one I am sure. https://www.schneider-electric.us/en/faqs/FA323474/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 11:56:58 -0800, Jay wrote: Does Schneider have videos of how to operate the SCP etc? Jay Peltz power. On Nov 18, 2018, at 7:41 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Drake, It took me years to try Trace/Xantrex/Schneider products after swearing off Xantrex in 2004, becoming an Outback devotee for a decade. I finally soured on Outback a few years ago after several years of poor customer service and a sense that Outback was not keeping up in general. I had tried Magnum early on and had a bad experience with them and the Sunny Island, while a robust machine, was definitely getting outdated, so I finally decided to give Schneider a try. While there are always things I wish could be better in all the various choices (which is true for the XW as well), I've stuck with Schneider for a few years now and have been happy with them. I did try the SWa couple of times, but the small cost savings doesn't feel worth the lesser capabilities over the XW. And their customer service has been pretty consistently good. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 10:43 AM Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com [4] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [5] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] mailto:william at millersolar.com [7] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] mailto:william at millersolar.com [9] http://www.millersolar.com/ [10] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [16] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [18] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [19] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [21] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [22] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [23] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [24] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [25] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [26] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [27] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [28] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [29] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [30] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [31] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [32] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Nov 19 16:25:00 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 13:25:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: References: <30C5BDC7-D768-4B61-AB37-5E3A4C68326D@gmail.com> <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <9b72709e6e25e6a5e9c7109769f47e07@127.0.0.1> The SCP does not have extensive logging and can't tell you too much. With Combox you can specify dozens of logs and the screen shot would tell you why the genset did not start. There is improved xanbus firmware to help with the limitations of the network. Once it is working I have found it very reliable. I require the combox for my clients even if they do not use it. The new Conext Gateway brings the whole system up to date with wifi communication. I have simple XW power systems with the same firmware that came with the gear back 2007. Sorry, but very little experience with either Outback or Schneider in grid-tie Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Mon, 19 Nov 2018 08:22:32 -0800, William Miller wrote: Friends: We installed XW systems up until a few years ago and had problems similar to those with Outback but subtly different. Here is a short list of some of our complaints: 1. We have problems with the XW system communicating with the outboard/optional Automatic Generator Start modules. At one point we were told that the factory supplied cables were too short and causing "ringing" of the data signals. We changed out the leads to the prescribed 6' leads and we are still battling intermittent communications problems with the AGS units. When the AGS does not communicate, the generator does not start when needed. The net result is power outages. 2. Schneider created frequent firmware upgrades. To my mind, this is a sign of half-baked code. The firmware update process requires an expensive AC powered dongle and an outboard AC source since the inverters shut down during firmware upgrade. Upgrading firmware on an XW system was usually a multi-hour affair. 3. Navigating the SCP is not at all intuitive, in my view. 4. The Power Distribution Panel is inadequately sized. This is not unique to Schneider, by any means. For system with more than two inverters we outsourced input and output AC distribution to outboard QO load centers. The busing of the AC breakers is via odd, claw-like bus bars. These are a bit awkward to work with and did not fit every scenario. 5. The XW system had no means to bypass more than two inverters. To illustrate these problems, see this web-page [3]. Due to these problems we decided to concentrate on Outback and learning how to navigate the short-comings of just one brand. Not having worked with XW system for a while, I am curious: Have these problems been resolved? Thanks in advance. William Miller millersolar.com [4] 805-438-5600 FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [5]] ON BEHALF OF Jay SENT: Sunday, November 18, 2018 11:57 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Does Schneider have videos of how to operate the SCP etc? Jay Peltz power. On Nov 18, 2018, at 7:41 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Drake, It took me years to try Trace/Xantrex/Schneider products after swearing off Xantrex in 2004, becoming an Outback devotee for a decade. I finally soured on Outback a few years ago after several years of poor customer service and a sense that Outback was not keeping up in general. I had tried Magnum early on and had a bad experience with them and the Sunny Island, while a robust machine, was definitely getting outdated, so I finally decided to give Schneider a try. While there are always things I wish could be better in all the various choices (which is true for the XW as well), I've stuck with Schneider for a few years now and have been happy with them. I did try the SWa couple of times, but the small cost savings doesn't feel worth the lesser capabilities over the XW. And their customer service has been pretty consistently good. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 10:43 AM Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Commercial/KG/KG_System.html [4] http://www.millersolar.com/ [5] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] mailto:Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com [7] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [8] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] mailto:william at millersolar.com [10] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] mailto:william at millersolar.com [12] http://www.millersolar.com/ [13] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [19] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [21] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [22] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [23] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [24] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [25] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [26] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [27] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [28] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [29] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [30] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [31] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [32] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [33] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [34] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [35] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: combox AGS logs.PNG Type: image/png Size: 39501 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Nov 19 18:05:05 2018 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 15:05:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: <9b72709e6e25e6a5e9c7109769f47e07@127.0.0.1> References: <30C5BDC7-D768-4B61-AB37-5E3A4C68326D@gmail.com> <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <9b72709e6e25e6a5e9c7109769f47e07@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <4CBF16BE-AEC6-493C-AEE8-03EED63D628E@gmail.com> Well, I have been considering retrying XW’s. I too dropped Xantrex over a decade a go. I had a good run for a while with a hundred or two, FX’s, then a high frequency of failures and poor customer service led to me to Magnum and probably a hundred relatively problem free systems and then suddenly a high failure rate a few years ago. The last few years have seen me mixing it up, between Radians and Magnum systems with so many troubles that I’ve moved away from AE work and only do a half dozen systems a year. I tell my customers up front, “the equipment nowadays is crap, and I don’t warranty it" This summer was a mess. I had two different Magnum systems turn on generators, run for two minutes, turn off for two minutes, for months! They were unattended systems with no possible communication. Magnum insisted it was the Atkinson Mini’s causing the problems, and after a summer of driving back and forth to these remote sites and swapping parts, someone fessed up that the AGS modules were the problem. My last Mate 3S lock up problem (one of way too many) happened after it started a generator. Again, unattended system, the generator had run for 1,200 hours, during the sunny summer. It started on exercise and never shut off. I suppose I could insist on a Satellite internet connection, but I don’t want to be a babysitter. Michael > On Nov 19, 2018, at 1:25 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > The SCP does not have extensive logging and can't tell you too much. With Combox you can specify dozens of logs and the screen shot would tell you why the genset did not start. There is improved xanbus firmware to help with the limitations of the network. Once it is working I have found it very reliable. I require the combox for my clients even if they do not use it. The new Conext Gateway brings the whole system up to date with wifi communication. > > I have simple XW power systems with the same firmware that came with the gear back 2007. Sorry, but very little experience with either Outback or Schneider in grid-tie > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > Mon, 19 Nov 2018 08:22:32 -0800, William Miller > wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> We installed XW systems up until a few years ago and had problems similar to those with Outback but subtly different. Here is a short list of some of our complaints: >> >> >> 1. We have problems with the XW system communicating with the outboard/optional Automatic Generator Start modules. At one point we were told that the factory supplied cables were too short and causing "ringing" of the data signals. We changed out the leads to the prescribed 6' leads and we are still battling intermittent communications problems with the AGS units. When the AGS does not communicate, the generator does not start when needed. The net result is power outages. >> >> 2. Schneider created frequent firmware upgrades. To my mind, this is a sign of half-baked code. The firmware update process requires an expensive AC powered dongle and an outboard AC source since the inverters shut down during firmware upgrade. Upgrading firmware on an XW system was usually a multi-hour affair. >> >> 3. Navigating the SCP is not at all intuitive, in my view. >> >> 4. The Power Distribution Panel is inadequately sized. This is not unique to Schneider, by any means. For system with more than two inverters we outsourced input and output AC distribution to outboard QO load centers. The busing of the AC breakers is via odd, claw-like bus bars. These are a bit awkward to work with and did not fit every scenario. >> >> 5. The XW system had no means to bypass more than two inverters. >> >> >> To illustrate these problems, see this web-page . >> >> >> Due to these problems we decided to concentrate on Outback and learning how to navigate the short-comings of just one brand. Not having worked with XW system for a while, I am curious: Have these problems been resolved? >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Jay >> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2018 11:57 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking >> >> >> Does Schneider have videos of how to operate the SCP etc? >> >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> On Nov 18, 2018, at 7:41 AM, Howie Michaelson > wrote: >> >> Drake, >> >> It took me years to try Trace/Xantrex/Schneider products after swearing off Xantrex in 2004, becoming an Outback devotee for a decade. I finally soured on Outback a few years ago after several years of poor customer service and a sense that Outback was not keeping up in general. I had tried Magnum early on and had a bad experience with them and the Sunny Island, while a robust machine, was definitely getting outdated, so I finally decided to give Schneider a try. >> >> While there are always things I wish could be better in all the various choices (which is true for the XW as well), I've stuck with Schneider for a few years now and have been happy with them. I did try the SWa couple of times, but the small cost savings doesn't feel worth the lesser capabilities over the XW. And their customer service has been pretty consistently good. >> >> Howie Michaelson >> >> Sun Catcher >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 10:43 AM wrote: >> >> It seems like Outback has too many problems now, with the Mate 3 and the discontinuation of the original, excellent FX inverters. I had a Mate 3 loose its programming on an AC coupled system so that the batteries had no protective relay until the Mate 3 was reprogrammed. Tech support said that this happens with the Mate 3. That is unacceptable. Fortunately it was a dual FX system, and I had the original Mate to put back on it. >> >> >> How do the Xantrex / Schneider products compare regarding reliability and user friendliness? Are there any downsides to using this equipment. I'm considering going full circle back to this line. >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> Drake >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: >> >> "RE-wrenches" > >> >> >> To: >> >> >, "RE-wrenches" > >> >> Cc: >> >> >> Sent: >> >> Fri, 16 Nov 2018 19:39:26 -0800 >> >> Subject: >> >> Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking >> >> >> Hi william >> >> >> Very tech fix with the relay! >> >> >> Fortunately or unfortunately there is no reliable web at the location but someone who manually checks things. >> >> >> Yes the 3s still has some of the same problems >> >> >> Thx >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 16, 2018, at 2:14 PM, William Miller > wrote: >> >> Jay: >> >> >> I have problems with all of my Mate3 and 3s controllers locking up. So much so that I have implemented the following steps: >> >> >> 1. For most installations I leave the hub wire cover off and label the Mate lead. Clients are instructed to unplug and re-plug the Cat5 lead whenever the Mate locks up. >> >> 2. On one installation I have a Control By Web unit ping both Mate3 units every 5 minutes. If either fails to respond after 3 attempts, a relay opens and closes the Orange/white leads which power cycles the Mates. >> >> >> Locking up of Mates is a fact of life with Outback equipment. I love the equipment and I hate the equipment. >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Lones Tuss >> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:42 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking >> >> >> Hello All >> >> And >> >> Hello Jay >> >> I just asked the tech support boss on this as I had no idea. >> >> He has a test setup that allows him to switch individuals lines on the cat5 cables. >> >> We can duplicate Jay's screen shot below by opening the some of the lines to the cat 5 cable. >> >> >> >> So as a start try replacing the cat5 between the Mate3S and the Hub. >> >> Using the silicone grease that comes with a Mate is never a bad idea. >> >> If your customer does not have a cable on hand I would try removing the cable several times perhaps that could help to dislodge any corrosion or dust on the connections. >> >> >> I hope this helps. >> >> Take Care All >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of jay >> >> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:05 AM >> >> To: RE-wrenches > >> >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking >> >> >> ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ >> >> >> HI All, >> >> >> I'm wondering if anyone else is having mate 3s locking up problems? >> >> >> I've got 2 systems that have had this happen. >> >> >> One is a big system ( 2 radians and 5 CC). Of course its a long ways away and no there isn't internet so no OpticsRE. >> >> >> Its been reprogramed with latest REV firmware. No change. >> >> >> thx >> >> >> jay >> >> >> peltz power >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org -- > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Nov 20 11:41:17 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep cycle batteries of the Batcap brand. The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce 500 AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are then wired in series to give a 48 V nominal bank. The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is about 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these batteries have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high expectations for these batteries being around for a while. My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus bar. Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them might cause the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money is worth putting into this bank? $0? The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong installer. He could use some help. What would you do in this situation? Rewire the bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 20:21:22 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 17:21:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM In-Reply-To: <20181120164211.C4EAD10740F@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <5bf4b319.1c69fb81.90402.857e@mx.google.com> Wrenches, DrakeYou may consider contacting "Batcap" and bank if they have a best practice for the battery configuration, this might be it but at least a starting point. I have had multi string batteries that seamed to like being rotated through the bank, sounds like alot of work and it is but this will swap higher resistance strings for lower ones. I'm sure you know this but each battery has internal resistance to charge and even discharge so rotating them reduces the effect and may in time help to improve the battery life. JerrySent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Drake Date: 11/20/18 8:41 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM Hello Wrenches, An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep cycle batteries of the Batcap brand. The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce 500 AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are then wired  in series to give a 48 V nominal bank. The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is about 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these batteries have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high expectations for these batteries being around for a while. My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus bar. Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them might cause the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money is worth putting into this bank? $0? The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong installer. He could use some help. What would you do in this situation? Rewire the bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Wed Nov 21 01:28:03 2018 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 23:28:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, Drake & All~ Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere & whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My reply below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the existing battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded. Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I suggest you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering shunt & a modest amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be used to measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the client won't approve that expenditure (& hourly labor for explanations), the service tech is hamstrung. Nobody can measure the health of a battery bank by just looking at it or talking about it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable "battery bad news" if they are shown the diminished capacity on a digital display after an equitably managed "pump & dump". Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements are recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series of attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the homeowner acknowledges that it's time to start afresh. Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the client has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible at getting that reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't materially blessed to be able to get new batteries, they might be better off spending limited funds on fuel for the engine generator instead of on battery testing & tutorials. The Wrench List is the Bomb~ Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Drake > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500 > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM > Hello Wrenches, > > An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep > cycle batteries of the Batcap > > brand. > > The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce *500 > AH battery sets at 12 V.* These four parallel sets are then wired in > series to give a 48 V nominal bank. > > The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is about 5 > years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these batteries > have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high > expectations for these batteries being around for a while. > > My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel > configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus bar. > Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them might cause > the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money is worth putting > into this bank? $0? > > The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong installer. > He could use some help. What would you do in this situation? Rewire the > bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > > > > > *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified > Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ > > ᐧ ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 03:06:57 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 01:06:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello All; I would question the client about the origin of this battery bank. New, used, how long in storage and in service, etc. If he bought these new, that's a very expensive battery bank! Usually when I've run into banks of massively parallel, low amp-hour sealed lead acid batteries, the origin was "a great surplus deal on a whole bunch of batteries from wheelchairs/UPS units/manufacturer overrun etc." My BS meter on the manufacturer Batcap was triggered by a few things.... -The company is focused on selling audiophiles xxxscratch thatxxx punks with car stereos so loud they set off car alarms 6 spots down. They need lots of amps right now to thump that bass. - The company name Batcap targets the capacitor boost market for this application, but actually a dedicated battery is a great idea, as it would recharge quickly from the (often up-sized) car alternator. But some folks seem to think the name implies there's a capacitor involved. There isn't. Sneaky language in the company name. - Sealed, low internal resistance, 100-125 amp-hours. Sounds like a stock AGM to me, compared to a VRSLA. - Spec sheet contains grammatical errors that indicate the writer does not speak English as a first language. - "Solar" seems to have been added to the website and battery label stickers as an afterthought....and 30 years cycle life in a solar application? Has Batcap been around for 30 years? Sounds like somebody importing Asian AGMs and sticking them with new stickers. DAN FINK Buckville Energy Consulting, Box Prairie CO 970-672-4342 On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 23:28 Mick Abraham Hello, Drake & All~ > > Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere & > whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My reply > below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the existing > battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded. > > Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I suggest > you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering shunt & a modest > amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be used to measure & > display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the client won't approve > that expenditure (& hourly labor for explanations), the service tech is > hamstrung. Nobody can measure the health of a battery bank by just looking > at it or talking about it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable > "battery bad news" if they are shown the diminished capacity on a digital > display after an equitably managed "pump & dump". > > Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery > pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements are > recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series of > attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the homeowner > acknowledges that it's time to start afresh. > > Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the client > has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible at getting > that reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't materially > blessed to be able to get new batteries, they might be better off spending > limited funds on fuel for the engine generator instead of on battery > testing & tutorials. > > The Wrench List is the Bomb~ > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Drake >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: >> Bcc: >> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500 >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep >> cycle batteries of the Batcap >> >> brand. >> >> The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce *500 >> AH battery sets at 12 V.* These four parallel sets are then wired in >> series to give a 48 V nominal bank. >> >> The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is about 5 >> years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these batteries >> have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high >> expectations for these batteries being around for a while. >> >> My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel >> configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus bar. >> Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them might cause >> the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money is worth putting >> into this bank? $0? >> >> The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong installer. >> He could use some help. What would you do in this situation? Rewire the >> bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> >> >> >> >> >> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified >> Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> ᐧ > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Nov 21 07:00:44 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 05:00:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1cf02cb4-4f2a-dac0-c86f-4d06c742c4c8@solarray.com> Regardless of the Amazing Batcap 30 yr claims debunked by Dan,  a system wired in the manner described (5 batteries in parallel, then series connecting the sets of 5 for 48 v) is just not going to charge and discharge evenly.  Its violated the no more than 4 parallel strings rule, so I'm surprised it lasted even 5 years. My guess is that some of the batteries are toast and some may have a bit of life in them, since they were so grossly imbalanced, so a neighbor might be able to use a few of the best ones for a couple more years. Ultimately the rule in off grid solar is "Batteries are the Weakest Link".  The customer is not going to have a decent experience until they replace that mess with a properly sized and wired battery bank from a reputable manufacturer. I won't take on new clients if we can't get the system up to snuff.  I don't need those oh so predictable calls that the power is off again. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/21/18 1:06 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > Hello All; I would question the client about the origin of this > battery bank. New, used, how long in storage and in service, etc. If > he bought these new, that's a very expensive battery bank! > > Usually when I've run into banks of massively parallel, low amp-hour > sealed lead acid batteries, the origin was "a great surplus deal on a > whole bunch of batteries from wheelchairs/UPS units/manufacturer > overrun etc." > > My BS meter on the manufacturer Batcap was triggered by a few things.... > > -The company is focused on selling audiophiles xxxscratch thatxxx > punks with car stereos so loud they set off car alarms 6 spots down. > They need lots of amps right now to thump that bass. > > - The company name Batcap targets the capacitor boost market for this > application, but actually a dedicated battery is a great idea, as it > would recharge quickly from the (often up-sized) car alternator. But > some folks seem to think the name implies there's a capacitor > involved. There isn't. Sneaky language in the company name. > > -  Sealed, low internal resistance, 100-125 amp-hours. Sounds like a > stock AGM to me, compared to a VRSLA. > > - Spec sheet contains grammatical errors that indicate the writer does > not speak English as a first language. > > - "Solar" seems to have been added to the website and battery label > stickers as an afterthought....and 30 years cycle life in a solar > application? Has Batcap been around for 30 years? Sounds like somebody > importing Asian AGMs and sticking them with new stickers. > > DAN FINK > Buckville Energy Consulting, Box Prairie CO 970-672-4342 > > > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 23:28 Mick Abraham wrote: > > Hello, Drake & All~ > > Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought > elsewhere & whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring > (copied below). My reply below may seem cynical & I may seem too > eager to declare the existing battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded. > > Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I > suggest you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering > shunt & a modest amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which > could be used to measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour > capacity. If the client won't approve that expenditure (& hourly > labor for explanations), the service tech is hamstrung. Nobody can > measure the health of a battery bank by just looking at it or > talking about it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable > "battery bad news" if they are shown the diminished capacity on a > digital display after an equitably managed "pump & dump". > > Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the > battery pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour > measurements are recorded as a baseline. From there...a common > pattern is a series of attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, > of course--until the homeowner acknowledges that it's time to > start afresh. > > Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the > client has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally > terrible at getting that reconnaissance done early enough. If the > client isn't materially blessed to be able to get new batteries, > they might be better off spending limited funds on fuel for the > engine generator instead of on battery testing & tutorials. > > The Wrench List is the Bomb~ > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Drake > > To: RE-wrenches > > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500 > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM > Hello Wrenches, > > An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, > 12 V Deep cycle batteries of the Batcap > > brand. > > The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to > produce *500 AH battery sets at 12 V.* These four parallel > sets are then wired  in series to give a 48 V nominal bank. > > The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank > is about 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner > that these batteries have lasted up to 30 years in solar > applications, so he has high expectations for these batteries > being around for a while. > > My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - > parallel configuration. But there are too many strings to do > this without a bus bar. Besides, the batteries are likely > damaged, and rewiring them might cause the bank to exhibit > unsuspected problems. How much money is worth putting into > this bank? $0? > > The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong > installer. He could use some help. What would you do in this > situation? Rewire the bank, leave it well enough alone or run > for the hills. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > > ᐧ > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 11:09:02 2018 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:09:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM Message-ID: <1D188A7C-FD3E-436B-9447-C7C419A34AC5@gmail.com> Hi Drake I vote for option 3: run like the wind. If you touch it you own it. With that voltage variation there has to be some deterioration, so the bank will never run right no matter what you do. Of course if you change anything it will be your fault that it doesn’t work. If anything, I’d recommend that you tell the guy his bank was installed in a way guaranteed to ruin it and that it is in fact ruined. Then lace up your track shoes and sprint. If you take the job to replace it he will always harbor a suspicion that you just wanted to make the money on a new battery bank. The most important client is the one you don’t take. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Nov 21 11:14:55 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 08:14:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM In-Reply-To: <1D188A7C-FD3E-436B-9447-C7C419A34AC5@gmail.com> References: <1D188A7C-FD3E-436B-9447-C7C419A34AC5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0710244deed3174732cec76b41fb5333@127.0.0.1> Words of wisdom Hilton. I saw a few of these types of systems during the wildfires here this summer. It was hard to leave people without power in the smoke and ruin. The guy who took the job has been blamed for everything. My quote was complete replacement of everything except the solar panels. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:09:02 -0500, Hilton Dier wrote: > Hi Drake > > I vote for option 3: run like the wind. If you touch it you own it. With > that voltage variation there has to be some deterioration, so the bank will > never run right no matter what you do. Of course if you change anything it > will be your fault that it doesn’t work. > > If anything, I’d recommend that you tell the guy his bank was installed in > a way guaranteed to ruin it and that it is in fact ruined. Then lace up > your track shoes and sprint. If you take the job to replace it he will > always harbor a suspicion that you just wanted to make the money on a new > battery bank. > > The most important client is the one you don’t take. > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From dan at foxfire-energy.com Wed Nov 21 12:55:56 2018 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:55:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Ni-Fe_update=3F?= Message-ID: <20181121105556.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.3e576e639b.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Nov 21 13:37:07 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:37:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? In-Reply-To: <20181121105556.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.3e576e639b.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> References: <20181121105556.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.3e576e639b.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Charge efficiency is really low,  Charging parameters can be hard to get right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they are really expensive to boot.  I've never sold them for these reasons, but I have replaced some sets that customers were unhappy with.  They seem to work OK, only if there are no large surge loads, and the battery and array are sized large enough. Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to really under size them, which only exasperates the above issues. There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been widely adopted by the solar industry.  It does have its place, and I understand the train industry uses it because A) they have cheap on grid charging available, so efficiency doesn't matter, and B) they have telecomm type loads with very little surge. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/21/18 10:55 AM, dan at foxfire-energy.com wrote: > Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre > packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about > Ni-Fe batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few > searches with mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a > Rabbit.. Thought I'd run it by you folks for an update.. > Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day. > > db > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Nov 21 13:40:55 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:40:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mick, While I fully agree on the importance of a monitor such as the TriMetric, I'm confused by some of what you've written below. A TriMet (or any similar monitor for LA) can measure amp-hours removed and replaced, but it can't measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. Only taking the time to drain the bank at a measured rate will do that, and I have yet to have a customer want to pay me to do a battery capacity test down to 1.75 vpc at the 20-hour rate - or any rate for that matter. The TriMet is set up such that the installer tells the TriMet the battery capacity. In a case such as this, what number would you program into the TM as the amp-hour capacity? How would you determine this value? Thanks, Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 11/20/2018 11:28 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: > Hello, Drake & All~ > > Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere & whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My reply below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the existing battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded. > > Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I suggest you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering shunt & a modest amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be used to measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the client won't approve that expenditure (& hourly labor for explanations), the service tech is hamstrung. Nobody can measure the health of a battery bank by just looking at it or talking about it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable "battery bad news" if they are shown the diminished capacity on a digital display after an equitably managed "pump & dump". > > Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements are recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series of attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the homeowner acknowledges that it's time to start afresh. > > Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the client has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible at getting that reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't materially blessed to be able to get new batteries, they might be better off spending limited funds on fuel for the engine generator instead of on battery testing & tutorials. > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > >     ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >     From: Drake >     To: RE-wrenches >     Cc: >     Bcc: >     Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500 >     Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM >     Hello Wrenches, > >     An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep cycle batteries of the Batcap brand. > >     The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce 500 AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are then wired  in series to give a 48 V nominal bank. > >     The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is about 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these batteries have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high expectations for these batteries being around for a while. > >     My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus bar. Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them might cause the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money is worth putting into this bank? $0? > >     The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong installer. He could use some help. What would you do in this situation? Rewire the bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills. > >     Thanks, > >     Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Nov 21 14:06:51 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:06:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <950b278b-0902-b19f-080f-e6e232fe66d8@solarray.com> I agree with Allan,  I have never done a full load test on a battery bank.  The customers experience usually provides the necessary info.  In this case there is no question the battery bank needs replacing.   Here are the reasons to replace in summary: 1)  Battery wiring in parallel/ then series, with too many parallel strings 2) Age of the batteries, 5 years is not bad for an average AGM in even good conditions. 3) Odd brand not suited for solar, with outrageous life expectancy claims. 4) 100 AH, 12 v batteries are just not the right choice for anything over a single series string.  Larger 6 v batteries are always preferred when possible and have longer cycle life because of thicker plates. 5) Wide variance in voltages between batteries (13 to 15 v?) 6) Customer's experience: obviously the service call came in, because the system wasn't performing properly anymore. Load testing this mess is just a further waste of everyone's time.  Temporarily rewiring the best batteries into a normal series/ parallel configuration with maybe 3 strings at most could regain a bit of performance until the the new set can be installed. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/21/18 11:40 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Mick, > > While I fully agree on the importance of a monitor such as the > TriMetric, I'm confused by some of what you've written below. A TriMet > (or any similar monitor for LA) can measure amp-hours removed and > replaced, but it can't measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour > capacity. Only taking the time to drain the bank at a measured rate > will do that, and I have yet to have a customer want to pay me to do a > battery capacity test down to 1.75 vpc at the 20-hour rate - or any > rate for that matter. The TriMet is set up such that the installer > tells the TriMet the battery capacity. In a case such as this, what > number would you program into the TM as the amp-hour capacity? How > would you determine this value? > > Thanks, Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > On 11/20/2018 11:28 PM, Mick Abraham wrote: > > Hello, Drake & All~ > > > > Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere > & whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My > reply below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the > existing battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded. > > > > Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I > suggest you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering > shunt & a modest amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be > used to measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the > client won't approve that expenditure (& hourly labor for > explanations), the service tech is hamstrung. Nobody can measure the > health of a battery bank by just looking at it or talking about > it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable "battery bad news" > if they are shown the diminished capacity on a digital display after > an equitably managed "pump & dump". > > > > Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery > pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements > are recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series > of attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the > homeowner acknowledges that it's time to start afresh. > > > > Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the > client has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible > at getting that reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't > materially blessed to be able to get new batteries, they might be > better off spending limited funds on fuel for the engine generator > instead of on battery testing & tutorials. > > > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > > www.abrahamsolar.com > > > >     ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >     From: Drake > >     To: RE-wrenches > >     Cc: > >     Bcc: > >     Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500 > >     Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM > >     Hello Wrenches, > > > >     An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 > V Deep cycle batteries of the Batcap brand. > > > >     The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to > produce 500 AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are then > wired  in series to give a 48 V nominal bank. > > > >     The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank > is about 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that > these batteries have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so > he has high expectations for these batteries being around for a while. > > > >     My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - > parallel configuration. But there are too many strings to do this > without a bus bar. Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and > rewiring them might cause the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. > How much money is worth putting into this bank? $0? > > > >     The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong > installer. He could use some help. What would you do in this > situation? Rewire the bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the > hills. > > > >     Thanks, > > > >     Drake > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at backwoodssolar.com Wed Nov 21 14:24:41 2018 From: dkatz at backwoodssolar.com (David Katz) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:24:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? In-Reply-To: References: <20181121105556.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.3e576e639b.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: AEE Solar sold NiFe batteries from Russia in the late 1990s. They last a long time but were hard to use with inverters. A 12 volt pack has 10 cells. Each cell reaches full charge at 1.7 volts so the pack would be at 17 volts. that is 68 volts in a 48 volt pack. inverters turn off for over-voltage before that. When they are operating the cells are at 1.2 volts. The charge efficiency is about 60% when you look at watt hours in vs. watt hours out. They also use a lot of distilled water. I had a set that required watering every 3 weeks. I did not keep up with watering once and one of the cells exploded when the water level got below the plates. I would suggest L-ion batteries instead. David Katz On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:37 AM Ray wrote: > Charge efficiency is really low, Charging parameters can be hard to get > right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they are really > expensive to boot. I've never sold them for these reasons, but I have > replaced some sets that customers were unhappy with. They seem to work OK, > only if there are no large surge loads, and the battery and array are sized > large enough. Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to really > under size them, which only exasperates the above issues. > > There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been widely > adopted by the solar industry. It does have its place, and I understand > the train industry uses it because A) they have cheap on grid charging > available, so efficiency doesn't matter, and B) they have telecomm type > loads with very little surge. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 11/21/18 10:55 AM, dan at foxfire-energy.com wrote: > > Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre > packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe > batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with > mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd > run it by you folks for an update.. > Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day. > > db > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ken at commonwealthsolar.com Wed Nov 21 14:36:02 2018 From: Ken at commonwealthsolar.com (Ken Schaal) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 14:36:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? In-Reply-To: References: <20181121105556.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.3e576e639b.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Hey alexis. Any thoughts regarding these comments about Ni-fi batteries? Ur running them DC direct? Hope all is well. Ken On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 2:25 PM David Katz AEE Solar sold NiFe batteries from Russia in the late 1990s. They last a > long time but were hard to use with inverters. A 12 volt pack has 10 > cells. Each cell reaches full charge at 1.7 volts so the pack would be at > 17 volts. that is 68 volts in a 48 volt pack. inverters turn off for > over-voltage before that. When they are operating the cells are at 1.2 > volts. The charge efficiency is about 60% when you look at watt hours in > vs. watt hours out. They also use a lot of distilled water. I had a set > that required watering every 3 weeks. I did not keep up with watering once > and one of the cells exploded when the water level got below the plates. > I would suggest L-ion batteries instead. > David Katz > > On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:37 AM Ray wrote: > >> Charge efficiency is really low, Charging parameters can be hard to get >> right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they are really >> expensive to boot. I've never sold them for these reasons, but I have >> replaced some sets that customers were unhappy with. They seem to work OK, >> only if there are no large surge loads, and the battery and array are sized >> large enough. Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to really >> under size them, which only exasperates the above issues. >> >> There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been widely >> adopted by the solar industry. It does have its place, and I understand >> the train industry uses it because A) they have cheap on grid charging >> available, so efficiency doesn't matter, and B) they have telecomm type >> loads with very little surge. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 11/21/18 10:55 AM, dan at foxfire-energy.com wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre >> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe >> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with >> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd >> run it by you folks for an update.. >> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day. >> >> db >> >> >> Dan Brown >> Foxfire Energy Corp. >> Renewable Energy Systems >> (802)-483-2564 >> www.Foxfire-Energy.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Nov 21 14:54:04 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:54:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM In-Reply-To: <5bf4b319.1c69fb81.90402.857e@mx.google.com> References: <5bf4b319.1c69fb81.90402.857e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <45e7ddb0-fe02-88ec-1568-f969a07595b0@sindelarsolar.com> Jerry, You write "I'm sure you know this..." but I don't know it. I don't think I have heard this before, as you have presented it. How do you rotate strings? Where did you learn this? Is there an online source that you can provide? Thanks, Allan On 11/20/2018 6:21 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > Wrenches, Drake > You may consider contacting "Batcap" and bank if they have a best > practice for the battery configuration, this might be it but at least > a starting point. I have had multi string batteries that seamed to > like being rotated through the bank, sounds like alot of work and it > is but this will swap higher resistance strings for lower ones. I'm > sure you know this but each battery has internal resistance to charge > and even discharge so rotating them reduces the effect and may in time > help to improve the battery life. > Jerry > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Drake > Date: 11/20/18 8:41 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM > > Hello Wrenches, > > An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep > cycle batteries of the Batcap > > brand. > > The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce > *500 AH battery sets at 12 V.* These four parallel sets are then > wired  in series to give a 48 V nominal bank. > > The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is > about 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these > batteries have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has > high expectations for these batteries being around for a while. > > My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel > configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus > bar. Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them > might cause the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money > is worth putting into this bank? $0? > > The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong > installer. He could use some help. What would you do in this > situation? Rewire the bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the > hills. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > /Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > /http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Wed Nov 21 15:50:23 2018 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 13:50:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM Message-ID: Allan S. sent follow up queries after my response to Drake's dilemma. Allan's queries are pasted below. Mick here: Sorry I didn't state my suggestion more clearly but, yes, in this situation the only way to know if the battery is worth trying to salvage is to pump it up nicely with a bunch of energy (meeting the battery mfr's "full charge parameters" or as close as possible)...shut off the generator & shut off the solar array...set the Tri-Metric (or other shunt based monitor) to measure "amp hours from full" & make sure the counter is starting at 0.00 amp hours from full...then impose loads on the battery bank & let it all run until the inverter shuts off due to low battery voltage. (The loads don't have to impose a steady "20 hour discharge rate" & we're not trying for laboratory accuracy. To give the battery a fair chance at proving its mettle, be sure the discharge rate is equitably chosen for the battery type & temperature, etc. To be "equitable", the servicing technician should run the test in a way that doesn't ask the battery to perform miraculously...just to perform within its design parameters.) Allan correctly states that 1.75 volts per cell is the "industry standard" discharge cut off point for lead acid batteries (@ 25 degrees C) so if the system is 48v nominal, that's 24 cells X 1.75 = 42.0 volts as the setpoint for the inverter's LBCO "low battery cutoff function". The amp-hour monitor will display the number of amp-hours that the battery was able to deliver before the inverter crashed on voltage & that value can be compared to the original rated capacity. So...although I must have muddled my explanation, Allan, the Tri-Metric type monitors can indeed measure & display the battery's amp-hour capacity. One must eliminate solar recharge during the test & any other variables such as generator run time...then there's only a battery, an inverter, some loads, and the amp-hour counting gizmo. >>An unhealthy battery will reach the failure point in a fairly short amount of time & for a fairly small amount of labor.<< A semi-healthy battery is a greater challenge because it takes longer to wring them out & the service tech may opt to educate the client on how to complete the "pump & dump" measurement after the tech leaves the site. If the client can be persuaded to install a shunt & an amp-hour meter, they'll also have better instrumentation in place to help them & their service technician down the road. Some clients will want to try an EQ charge or other measures & the ah counter will be able to display any improvements that result from those efforts...or the lack of improvements. As my Dutch solar buddy would say, "Meten is Weten": "Measuring is Knowing." A battery based energy system owner who only has a DC voltmeter is like a car owner whose only instrument is a tire pressure gauge. Definitely some clients balk at the expense & new learning required to retrofit a proper ah monitor, but better instrumentation may prove a good value to them in the long run. The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sindelar Solar To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Bcc: Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:40:55 -0700 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM Mick, While I fully agree on the importance of a monitor such as the TriMetric, I'm confused by some of what you've written below. A TriMet (or any similar monitor for LA) can measure amp-hours removed and replaced, but it can't measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. Only taking the time to drain the bank at a measured rate will do that, and I have yet to have a customer want to pay me to do a battery capacity test down to 1.75 vpc at the 20-hour rate - or any rate for that matter. The TriMet is set up such that the installer tells the TriMet the battery capacity. In a case such as this, what number would you program into the TM as the amp-hour capacity? How would you determine this value? Thanks, Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 19:41:56 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 18:41:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? In-Reply-To: <20181121105556.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.3e576e639b.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> References: <20181121105556.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.3e576e639b.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: I concur with the other writers. They have low charge efficiency, Although that is not a killer. the voltages are as David says, but the discharge drops below 1.2 volts with surges. I have heard of a battery fire with one set, perhaps it was due to low water as David suggest. They seem to need a lot of water, The only special value is they do not freeze. However the output current drops when cold. On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 12:35 PM wrote: > Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre > packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe > batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with > mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd > run it by you folks for an update.. > Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day. > > db > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 22:21:02 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:21:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM In-Reply-To: <45e7ddb0-fe02-88ec-1568-f969a07595b0@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <5bf620a2.1c69fb81.79b57.5df6@mx.google.com> AllanI have been involved in off grid since the late 70's, l guess l have picked up a thing or two. As batteries age most will require higher voltage to reach the same specific gravity and will have a lower voltage under a load. This is the result of resistance with in the battery. This battery may still be good and just needs a good charge to get it back to a more normal state.The entire wire harness from where it leaves the point of charge has it's own resistance e, every connection, cable end, wire all of it has resistance and measuring  this is not as easy as you may think, you need to put a preset load on the bank measure the complete circuit voltage, now do the same under charge, measure  each battery note everything and once done with all the seperate banks you can see where the higher resistance is. This is why making all the cables the same length and same size, l have seen some cables soldered to reduce resistance. This in a long round about reason is why fewer bigger banks is better then more smaller batteries. I can continue but you should be up to speed nowJerrySent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Sindelar Solar Date: 11/21/18 11:54 AM (GMT-08:00) To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM Jerry, You write "I'm sure you know this..." but I don't know it. I don't think I have heard this before, as you have presented it. How do you rotate strings? Where did you learn this? Is there an online source that you can provide? Thanks, Allan On 11/20/2018 6:21 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: Wrenches, Drake You may consider contacting "Batcap" and bank if they have a best practice for the battery configuration, this might be it but at least a starting point. I have had multi string batteries that seamed to like being rotated through the bank, sounds like alot of work and it is but this will swap higher resistance strings for lower ones. I'm sure you know this but each battery has internal resistance to charge and even discharge so rotating them reduces the effect and may in time help to improve the battery life.  Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Drake Date: 11/20/18 8:41 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM Hello Wrenches, An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep cycle batteries of the Batcap brand. The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce 500 AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are then wired  in series to give a 48 V nominal bank. The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is about 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these batteries have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high expectations for these batteries being around for a while. My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus bar. Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them might cause the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money is worth putting into this bank? $0? The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong installer. He could use some help. What would you do in this situation? Rewire the bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 22:30:31 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:30:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5bf622db.1c69fb81.79b57.5f24@mx.google.com> WrenchesI have used Iron Edison Batteries and 12 volts is tough but l have had no issues at 48, you can set the high side voltage enough to work well. They are a very thirsty battery technology but may last for ever. Round trip efficiency is 70% at best so a larger array is required and the batteries don't like it to cold either.Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Ken Schaal Date: 11/21/18 11:36 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? Hey alexis.Any thoughts regarding these comments about Ni-fi batteries?Ur running them DC direct?Hope all is well. KenOn Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 2:25 PM David Katz wrote: Charge efficiency is really low,  Charging parameters can be hard to get right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they are really expensive to boot.  I've never sold them for these reasons, but I have replaced some sets that customers were unhappy with.  They seem to work OK, only if there are no large surge loads, and the battery and array are sized large enough.  Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to really under size them, which only exasperates the above issues. There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been widely adopted by the solar industry.  It does have its place, and I understand the train industry uses it because A) they have cheap on grid charging available, so efficiency doesn't matter, and B) they have telecomm type loads with very little surge. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/21/18 10:55 AM, dan at foxfire-energy.com wrote: Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd run it by you folks for an update.. Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day. db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Nov 21 13:35:51 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:35:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Ni-Fe_update=3F?= In-Reply-To: <20181121105556.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.3e576e639b.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> References: <20181121105556.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.3e576e639b.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <9b27a5f3499179391195ab78a119b4cd@127.0.0.1> IE has been good with their LFP and Schneider spread sheet data for easy system config. I can't see Nife anymore. Gobble Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:55:56 -0700, wrote: Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd run it by you folks for an update.. Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day. db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com [3] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: efficiency.PNG Type: image/png Size: 14951 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 15:25:02 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:25:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? In-Reply-To: References: <20181121105556.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.3e576e639b.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <314750B5-5E55-4E4E-A430-73BAC9311EA4@gmail.com> As we are talking about the IronEdison batteries. I checked their site about lithium and they claim to have a BMS that will communicate with Outback. I didn’t think anybody had comm with OB? Can anyone confirm that? jay Peltz power > On Nov 21, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Ken Schaal wrote: > > Hey alexis. > Any thoughts regarding these comments about Ni-fi batteries? > Ur running them DC direct? > Hope all is well. Ken > > On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 2:25 PM David Katz wrote: > AEE Solar sold NiFe batteries from Russia in the late 1990s. They last a long time but were hard to use with inverters. A 12 volt pack has 10 cells. Each cell reaches full charge at 1.7 volts so the pack would be at 17 volts. that is 68 volts in a 48 volt pack. inverters turn off for over-voltage before that. When they are operating the cells are at 1.2 volts. The charge efficiency is about 60% when you look at watt hours in vs. watt hours out. They also use a lot of distilled water. I had a set that required watering every 3 weeks. I did not keep up with watering once and one of the cells exploded when the water level got below the plates. > I would suggest L-ion batteries instead. > David Katz > > On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:37 AM Ray > wrote: > Charge efficiency is really low, Charging parameters can be hard to get right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they are really expensive to boot. I've never sold them for these reasons, but I have replaced some sets that customers were unhappy with. They seem to work OK, only if there are no large surge loads, and the battery and array are sized large enough. Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to really under size them, which only exasperates the above issues. > > There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been widely adopted by the solar industry. It does have its place, and I understand the train industry uses it because A) they have cheap on grid charging available, so efficiency doesn't matter, and B) they have telecomm type loads with very little surge. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 11/21/18 10:55 AM, dan at foxfire-energy.com wrote: >> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd run it by you folks for an update.. >> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day. >> >> db >> >> >> Dan Brown >> Foxfire Energy Corp. >> Renewable Energy Systems >> (802)-483-2564 >> www.Foxfire-Energy.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 21 14:03:02 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:03:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? In-Reply-To: References: <20181121105556.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.3e576e639b.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <5230335F-3FFB-4E38-B3A6-7CA64FC6B085@gmail.com> HI Ray, I’ll add that they use lots of water requiring lots of maintenance. Their efficiency is between 70 and 80%. The reason that the railroad and telecomm have used them in remote applications is that chemistry doesn’t care about cold or hot. And given that they cost (95%) almost as much as a top end Lithium battery, I’d go for the Lithium if someone has that kind of cash to throw around. Jay Peltz Power. > On Nov 21, 2018, at 10:37 AM, Ray wrote: > > Charge efficiency is really low, Charging parameters can be hard to get right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they are really expensive to boot. I've never sold them for these reasons, but I have replaced some sets that customers were unhappy with. They seem to work OK, only if there are no large surge loads, and the battery and array are sized large enough. Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to really under size them, which only exasperates the above issues. > > There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been widely adopted by the solar industry. It does have its place, and I understand the train industry uses it because A) they have cheap on grid charging available, so efficiency doesn't matter, and B) they have telecomm type loads with very little surge. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 11/21/18 10:55 AM, dan at foxfire-energy.com wrote: >> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd run it by you folks for an update.. >> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day. >> >> db >> >> >> Dan Brown >> Foxfire Energy Corp. >> Renewable Energy Systems >> (802)-483-2564 >> www.Foxfire-Energy.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Nov 21 15:29:26 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:29:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need direct-to-decking mounting foot recommendation Message-ID: Friends: I have a roof-top PV project coming up where we will need to mount some of our feet without benefit of screwing into rafters. This project is an addition to a previous project, and in that iteration we used DPW EZ-feet. We no longer use DPW products, instead we are a Snap-n-Rack house. I am researching if we could integrate the EZ-foot with the Snap-N-Rack, but in the meantime I’d like to ask the hive-mind for any recommendations on direct-to-sheeting mounting options. The roof is metal so we will screw right through the metal, into the roof sheeting. We will seal with butyl sheets. We will connect to TJI joists whenever possible, using longer but narrow screws, but we will fill all the holes on the selected hardware with the properly rated screws. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks in advance. William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Wed Nov 21 23:27:49 2018 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 04:27:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? In-Reply-To: <5bf622db.1c69fb81.79b57.5f24@mx.google.com> References: , <5bf622db.1c69fb81.79b57.5f24@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Dan, I have been living on Ni-Fe batteries for several years now and I have somewhat mixed feelings. I love them but I also dislike some aspects of them. First of all, as everyone mentions, they have a very low round-trip Wh efficiency, and secondly, they do use a lot of water. Otherwise, they are quite good. Iron Edison is great with tech support and they have the voltage parameters figured out really well. I believe that there are a lot of myths out there about Ni-Fe, but from what I've seen and heard, if you can afford them, if you can make sure to have an oversized PV array, and if you have time to top them off with distilled water every month (never skip a month!!!!!), they are a really great battery. If you do use Ni-Fe, I have a few suggestions/tips... * First of all, never try hydro-caps with these batteries!!! I found mixed information on this one so I called them up and the owner of the Hydro-caps company claimed that they are compatible with Ni-Fe so I figured I'd give them a try. The Hydro-caps started to melt and they failed to release any of the pressure. This caused two of the batteries to explode. Thankfully I had two extra identical Ni-Fe batteries so I just switched them out as an experiment (and removed all the Hydro-caps) and my system is running fine. * Iron-Edison sells an "auto watering system" and a compatible "water cart." I highly recommend this accessory, but of course, you (or the customer) only fill the batteries while you or the customer is carefully monitoring it. You never leave it going to "keep them topped off. If you have this system installed then watering the batteries is so easy. It's a breeze. If you're filling these by hand then forget it... they would be terrible... * They also sell and recommend a deionizing filter that is supposedly good enough for purifying the water for the battery. This would cut the cost of the distilled water and since Iron Edison is the one holding the warranty, I have a fairly good level of confidence that it won't hurt the battery. If it did end up hurting the battery, it wouldn't void the warranty. * My batteries do get very cold (perhaps 10°F inside the electrolyte) and they don't seem to mind too much. Perhaps they do have a somewhat lower capacity. * Make sure they aren't undersized or else they'll struggle with the surge loads. * The PV array needs to be quite large. Make sure that the PV array can produce at least a C/6 at the nominal battery voltage, and C/5 or C/4 is better if the customer will be running much during the day. In other words, if you have a 500 Ah 48V bank you should make sure that the array is an absolute minimum of 4 kW (500 * 48 / 6 = 4,000). These batteries need a hard charge every now and then or else they start to act like they are going bad. If you take a battery that seems to be going bad and you give it a really good hard charge then they often come right back and there is nothing wrong with them. * I wouldn't use these on a grid-tied system. * I have always been skeptical about pre-packaged systems. Iron Edison seems like a good company but I still don't know if I like the pre-packaged idea. * After taking my previous points into consideration, if the customer is still leaning that way and they had the budget, I wouldn't hesitate to use a Ni-Fe, but on the other hand, most people would weigh the factors and decide that it's too much up-front investment, and/or too much maintenance. Many who are willing to do the maintenance don't have the funds, and many who have the funds wouldn't be okay with the maintenance. For the first case, Lead-Acid is definitely the way to go, and for the second case, LiFe-PO4 is better. That being said there are a few people who will weigh all the factors and still gladly go for the Ni-Fe because if you go install a Lithium battery tomorrow, my Ni-Fe battery will still most likely be alive and strong when your lithium battery goes out. I hope this helps a little! Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of jerrysgarage01 Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 8:30 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? Wrenches I have used Iron Edison Batteries and 12 volts is tough but l have had no issues at 48, you can set the high side voltage enough to work well. They are a very thirsty battery technology but may last for ever. Round trip efficiency is 70% at best so a larger array is required and the batteries don't like it to cold either. Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Ken Schaal Date: 11/21/18 11:36 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? Hey alexis. Any thoughts regarding these comments about Ni-fi batteries? Ur running them DC direct? Hope all is well. Ken On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 2:25 PM David Katz wrote: AEE Solar sold NiFe batteries from Russia in the late 1990s. They last a long time but were hard to use with inverters. A 12 volt pack has 10 cells. Each cell reaches full charge at 1.7 volts so the pack would be at 17 volts. that is 68 volts in a 48 volt pack. inverters turn off for over-voltage before that. When they are operating the cells are at 1.2 volts. The charge efficiency is about 60% when you look at watt hours in vs. watt hours out. They also use a lot of distilled water. I had a set that required watering every 3 weeks. I did not keep up with watering once and one of the cells exploded when the water level got below the plates. I would suggest L-ion batteries instead. David Katz On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:37 AM Ray > wrote: Charge efficiency is really low, Charging parameters can be hard to get right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they are really expensive to boot. I've never sold them for these reasons, but I have replaced some sets that customers were unhappy with. They seem to work OK, only if there are no large surge loads, and the battery and array are sized large enough. Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to really under size them, which only exasperates the above issues. There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been widely adopted by the solar industry. It does have its place, and I understand the train industry uses it because A) they have cheap on grid charging available, so efficiency doesn't matter, and B) they have telecomm type loads with very little surge. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/21/18 10:55 AM, dan at foxfire-energy.com wrote: Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd run it by you folks for an update.. Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day. db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Wed Nov 21 23:46:28 2018 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 21:46:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need direct-to-decking mounting foot recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > - I am researching if we could integrate the EZ-foot with the Snap-N-Rack, > William, For metal roof scenarios where rafter finding isn't an option we use EZ Feet and then attach SnapNrack rails to them. It's a very good solution just be sure to note how much of the vertical portion of the EZ Foot interfaces with the rail. You can't pull the rail up to the top of the foot completely. This is hard to explain but easy to see once installing. Sam OnSite Energy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Nov 22 00:40:40 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 22:40:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM In-Reply-To: <5bf620a2.1c69fb81.79b57.5df6@mx.google.com> References: <5bf620a2.1c69fb81.79b57.5df6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4e1f22c0-00be-4ac8-e1eb-d152518d7fdb@sindelarsolar.com> Well, Jerry, I guess I'm up to speed now, thanks... It's just that your explanation here wasn't what I asked about. I was asking about your words that "rotating them reduces the effect [of internal resistance to charge and even discharge] and may in time help to improve the battery life" - I had not heard this, and I also asked how you rotate strings - the order of batteries within a string? Mixing batteries among strings? Simply rotating the lead positive cell in each string? So I ask again - is there an online resource you can suggest, so we can learn more? Thanks, Allan On 11/21/2018 8:21 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: > Allan > I have been involved in off grid since the late 70's, l guess l have > picked up a thing or two. As batteries age most will require higher > voltage to reach the same specific gravity and will have a lower > voltage under a load. This is the result of resistance with in the > battery. This battery may still be good and just needs a good charge > to get it back to a more normal state. > The entire wire harness from where it leaves the point of charge has > it's own resistance, every connection, cable end, wire all of it has > resistance and measuring  this is not as easy as you may think, you > need to put a preset load on the bank measure the complete circuit > voltage, now do the same under charge, measure  each battery note > everything and once done with all the seperate banks you can see where > the higher resistance is. This is why making all the cables the same > length and same size, l have seen some cables soldered to reduce > resistance. This in a long round about reason is why fewer bigger > banks is better then more smaller batteries. I can continue but you > should be up to speed now > Jerry > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Sindelar Solar > > Jerry, > > You write "I'm sure you know this..." but I don't know it. I don't > think I have heard this before, as you have presented it. > > How do you rotate strings? Where did you learn this? Is there an > online source that you can provide? > > Thanks, Allan > > On 11/20/2018 6:21 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote: >> Wrenches, Drake >> You may consider contacting "Batcap" and bank if they have a best >> practice for the battery configuration, this might be it but at least >> a starting point. I have had multi string batteries that seamed to >> like being rotated through the bank, sounds like alot of work and it >> is but this will swap higher resistance strings for lower ones. I'm >> sure you know this but each battery has internal resistance to charge >> and even discharge so rotating them reduces the effect and may in >> time help to improve the battery life. >> Jerry >> -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at willpowerelect.com Thu Nov 22 01:10:33 2018 From: bruce at willpowerelect.com (bruce at willpowerelect.com) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 23:10:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insolation calc anyone ;) Message-ID: <20181121231033.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.b0de974801.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/jpeg Size: 4536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 10:08:07 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 08:08:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? In-Reply-To: <20181121105556.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.3e576e639b.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> References: <20181121105556.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.3e576e639b.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Wrenches; I have run my house on 12 volt NiFe batteries for 3 years now. I was going to write a long essay, but Kienen beat me to it. It's an excellent analysis, I agree with each of his bullet points. All I'll add is that the batteries charge with decent efficiency up to 80% SOC. To get that last 20%, they do require 1.65 volts per cell, which most standalone inverter / chargers won't do off a generator - they freak out at a bit above 15v and shut down. I've used 2 tactics to get that last 20% when using a generator, and I have experienced the same issue that Kienen mentioned -- they need to get a nice strong, charge cycle every so often or else they will behave like a heavily sulfated FLA, but of course the NiFes don't sulfate. 1) after charging to 80% SOC with the generator, both of my charge controllers (outback and midnite) have no problem being programmed to a 16.5v absorb cycle, I set absorb at 6 hours, on a sunny day that does the trick here. 2) If no long, sunny day available and you are forced to use a generator and charger that won't let you get to 16.5v, remove one cell from the series string, and charge the other 9 cells. Then put the one you removed back in the string, and remove one of the ones you discharged, and generator charge again. Then re-assemble back into a 10-cell string. I've only had to do this a couple times. In general, I'm happy with these batteries, and happy to never have to deal with sulfation again, and remember I have the worst case scenario here with a 12v bank, undersized because of the greater DOD capability of NiFes, a refrigerator that surges very hard, and a magnum inverter that goes wonky with big surges at low voltages. I would sell Iron Edison NiFes to a client...but unless they are a special sort of off-grid 12v person, I'd only do 48v because of the surge issue. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP PV Associate 970.672.4342 On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:35 AM wrote: > Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre > packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe > batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with > mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd > run it by you folks for an update.. > Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day. > > db > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 10:37:52 2018 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Solar) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 09:37:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insolation calc anyone ;) In-Reply-To: <20181121231033.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.b0de974801.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> References: <20181121231033.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.b0de974801.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> Message-ID: I live in Northern MN and we get very cold days (-50F +) and very crisp clear days when it’s this cold. I’ve seen 1333 WM2 on the same plane as my array with snow reflecting sun light. Using the daystar irradiance meter. I am at 1400’ so your increased elevation with very cold temps, snow and edge of cloud could maybe cause it. Maybe a calculation of extremes could give you an idea. Rearrange the formula and get the irradiance needed to cause this high of watts. Jesse Dahl NABCEP PV Installation Professional IBEW Local 292 - Electrician Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 22, 2018, at 12:10 AM, wrote: > > Compadres, > > I have 4 identical arrays of 3 strings of 3 Solarworld SW 245 mono (2010 model) to FM80s. When designing, not exceeding 150 voc was critical. No record temp data available. Location ~ 4,000' Pacific Northwest. Recently replaced an FM80 with 6 blown FETs showing max power at 3075 watts! This from a 2205 watt array into a 24 volt battery. Max historical voc is ~120. My guess at record low temp is -10F. tc%/ºC MPP doesn't get anywhere close. What would the WM2 need to be in order to achieve 3075 watts on a 2205 watt array? BTW, 2 of the four original chargers are still working fine and one of them also shows 3075 watts max power. Edge of cloud effect against snow field at bottom of array? > > Cheers, > > Bruce Fiero-RMI > > > > "Energizing the Rogue Valley" > > 4115 S Pacific Hwy > Medford, OR 97501 > > P: 541.535.3965 > F: 541.512.0061 > E: bruce at willpowerelect.com > W: Willpower Electric, LLC > > CCB 191852 > Oregon Electrical Contractor C681 > NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38 > DUNS 191470363 > Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs > > > **This email may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or if it appears that you have received this email in error, please advise me immediately by reply email, keep the contents confidential, and immediately delete the message and any attachments from your system. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 11:23:11 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 09:23:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM In-Reply-To: <1cf02cb4-4f2a-dac0-c86f-4d06c742c4c8@solarray.com> References: <1cf02cb4-4f2a-dac0-c86f-4d06c742c4c8@solarray.com> Message-ID: All; I forgot to note that with the AGMs a full equalization that could temporarily stave off problems across the massively paralleled small-capacity batteries is not possible. I would probably spend a couple hours, no more, load testing it while watching on a thermal imager. I don't have the luxury of a Fluke battery tester. I would show the customer why it was designed incorrectly, show the test results and FLIR photos, and walk away. I would never take on the job of battery replacement in this situation....you will be the loser who "wrecked his system." On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 05:00 Ray Regardless of the Amazing Batcap 30 yr claims debunked by Dan, a system > wired in the manner described (5 batteries in parallel, then series > connecting the sets of 5 for 48 v) is just not going to charge and > discharge evenly. Its violated the no more than 4 parallel strings rule, > so I'm surprised it lasted even 5 years. My guess is that some of the > batteries are toast and some may have a bit of life in them, since they > were so grossly imbalanced, so a neighbor might be able to use a few of the > best ones for a couple more years. Ultimately the rule in off grid solar is > "Batteries are the Weakest Link". The customer is not going to have a > decent experience until they replace that mess with a properly sized and > wired battery bank from a reputable manufacturer. > > I won't take on new clients if we can't get the system up to snuff. I > don't need those oh so predictable calls that the power is off again. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 11/21/18 1:06 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Hello All; I would question the client about the origin of this battery > bank. New, used, how long in storage and in service, etc. If he bought > these new, that's a very expensive battery bank! > > Usually when I've run into banks of massively parallel, low amp-hour > sealed lead acid batteries, the origin was "a great surplus deal on a whole > bunch of batteries from wheelchairs/UPS units/manufacturer overrun etc." > > My BS meter on the manufacturer Batcap was triggered by a few things.... > > -The company is focused on selling audiophiles xxxscratch thatxxx punks > with car stereos so loud they set off car alarms 6 spots down. They need > lots of amps right now to thump that bass. > > - The company name Batcap targets the capacitor boost market for this > application, but actually a dedicated battery is a great idea, as it would > recharge quickly from the (often up-sized) car alternator. But some folks > seem to think the name implies there's a capacitor involved. There isn't. > Sneaky language in the company name. > > - Sealed, low internal resistance, 100-125 amp-hours. Sounds like a stock > AGM to me, compared to a VRSLA. > > - Spec sheet contains grammatical errors that indicate the writer does not > speak English as a first language. > > - "Solar" seems to have been added to the website and battery label > stickers as an afterthought....and 30 years cycle life in a solar > application? Has Batcap been around for 30 years? Sounds like somebody > importing Asian AGMs and sticking them with new stickers. > > DAN FINK > Buckville Energy Consulting, Box Prairie CO 970-672-4342 > > > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 23:28 Mick Abraham >> Hello, Drake & All~ >> >> Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere & >> whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My reply >> below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the existing >> battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded. >> >> Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I suggest >> you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering shunt & a modest >> amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be used to measure & >> display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the client won't approve >> that expenditure (& hourly labor for explanations), the service tech is >> hamstrung. Nobody can measure the health of a battery bank by just looking >> at it or talking about it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable >> "battery bad news" if they are shown the diminished capacity on a digital >> display after an equitably managed "pump & dump". >> >> Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery >> pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements are >> recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series of >> attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the homeowner >> acknowledges that it's time to start afresh. >> >> Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the client >> has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible at getting >> that reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't materially >> blessed to be able to get new batteries, they might be better off spending >> limited funds on fuel for the engine generator instead of on battery >> testing & tutorials. >> >> The Wrench List is the Bomb~ >> >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >> www.abrahamsolar.com >> >> Landline: 970-731-4675 >> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Drake >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Cc: >>> Bcc: >>> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500 >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep >>> cycle batteries of the Batcap >>> >>> brand. >>> >>> The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce *500 >>> AH battery sets at 12 V.* These four parallel sets are then wired in >>> series to give a 48 V nominal bank. >>> >>> The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is about >>> 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these batteries >>> have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high >>> expectations for these batteries being around for a while. >>> >>> My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel >>> configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus bar. >>> Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them might cause >>> the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money is worth putting >>> into this bank? $0? >>> >>> The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong >>> installer. He could use some help. What would you do in this situation? >>> Rewire the bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> Drake Chamberlin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified >>> Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/ >>> >>> ᐧ >> ᐧ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 10:42:30 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 07:42:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? In-Reply-To: References: <20181121105556.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.3e576e639b.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <3C2924ED-E815-497E-B02B-D21C055DE1D4@gmail.com> Hi Dan and Kienan I’m curious how much water you are adding monthly? Jay Peltz Power. > On Nov 22, 2018, at 7:08 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Wrenches; I have run my house on 12 volt NiFe batteries for 3 years now. I was going to write a long essay, but Kienen beat me to it. It's an excellent analysis, I agree with each of his bullet points. > > All I'll add is that the batteries charge with decent efficiency up to 80% SOC. To get that last 20%, they do require 1.65 volts per cell, which most standalone inverter / chargers won't do off a generator - they freak out at a bit above 15v and shut down. > > I've used 2 tactics to get that last 20% when using a generator, and I have experienced the same issue that Kienen mentioned -- they need to get a nice strong, charge cycle every so often or else they will behave like a heavily sulfated FLA, but of course the NiFes don't sulfate. > > 1) after charging to 80% SOC with the generator, both of my charge controllers (outback and midnite) have no problem being programmed to a 16.5v absorb cycle, I set absorb at 6 hours, on a sunny day that does the trick here. > > 2) If no long, sunny day available and you are forced to use a generator and charger that won't let you get to 16.5v, remove one cell from the series string, and charge the other 9 cells. Then put the one you removed back in the string, and remove one of the ones you discharged, and generator charge again. Then re-assemble back into a 10-cell string. I've only had to do this a couple times. > > In general, I'm happy with these batteries, and happy to never have to deal with sulfation again, and remember I have the worst case scenario here with a 12v bank, undersized because of the greater DOD capability of NiFes, a refrigerator that surges very hard, and a magnum inverter that goes wonky with big surges at low voltages. > > I would sell Iron Edison NiFes to a client...but unless they are a special sort of off-grid 12v person, I'd only do 48v because of the surge issue. > > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > NABCEP PV Associate > > 970.672.4342 > > > > >> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:35 AM wrote: >> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd run it by you folks for an update.. >> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day. >> >> db >> >> >> Dan Brown >> Foxfire Energy Corp. >> Renewable Energy Systems >> (802)-483-2564 >> www.Foxfire-Energy.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 12:53:56 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 09:53:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insolation calc anyone ;) In-Reply-To: <20181121231033.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.b0de974801.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> References: <20181121231033.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.b0de974801.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Bruce, Wrenches Your case is interesting because everything was operating and in place but the range is tighter and only has 3 modules connected per string. In Hawaii we recorded close to 3000 watts m2, during a commissioning of a 100 k Satcon inverter had 3 equal conbiners, with only one combiner on we clipped the inverter at just over 100 KWAC on the display. Iradiance meter went out of range. In northern California had over 2000 watts m2 and poped the inverters with over volts. Edge of cloud, cold temps, higher elevations can really be an issue for so called safe zone. Jerry On Nov 21, 2018 10:11 PM, wrote: Compadres, I have 4 identical arrays of 3 strings of 3 Solarworld SW 245 mono (2010 model) to FM80s. When designing, not exceeding 150 voc was critical. No record temp data available. Location ~ 4,000' Pacific Northwest. Recently replaced an FM80 with 6 blown FETs showing max power at 3075 watts! This from a 2205 watt array into a 24 volt battery. Max historical voc is ~120. My guess at record low temp is -10F. tc%/ºC MPP doesn't get anywhere close. What would the WM2 need to be in order to achieve 3075 watts on a 2205 watt array? BTW, 2 of the four original chargers are still working fine and one of them also shows 3075 watts max power. Edge of cloud effect against snow field at bottom of array? Cheers, Bruce Fiero-RMI *"**Energizing the Rogue Valley"* 4115 S Pacific Hwy *Medford, OR 97501* *P:* 541.535.3965 *F:* 541.512.0061 *E:* bruce at willpowerelect.com *W:* Willpower Electric, LLC *CCB **191852* *Oregon Electrical Contractor **C681* *NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38* *DUNS* *191470363* *Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally **Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs * ***This email may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or if it appears that you have received this email in error, please advise me immediately by reply email, keep the contents confidential, and immediately delete the message and any attachments from your system. * _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/jpeg Size: 4536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 13:11:37 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 10:11:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insolation calc anyone ;) In-Reply-To: References: <20181121231033.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.b0de974801.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> Message-ID: HI Bruce, OB specifies 2000 watts STC max for the FM-80 at 24v. Gotta say I've never measured 3X solar irradiance, impressive. jay peltz power > On Nov 22, 2018, at 7:37 AM, Solar wrote: > > I live in Northern MN and we get very cold days (-50F +) and very crisp clear days when it’s this cold. I’ve seen 1333 WM2 on the same plane as my array with snow reflecting sun light. Using the daystar irradiance meter. I am at 1400’ so your increased elevation with very cold temps, snow and edge of cloud could maybe cause it. Maybe a calculation of extremes could give you an idea. Rearrange the formula and get the irradiance needed to cause this high of watts. > > Jesse Dahl > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > IBEW Local 292 - Electrician > Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 22, 2018, at 12:10 AM, > > wrote: > >> Compadres, >> >> I have 4 identical arrays of 3 strings of 3 Solarworld SW 245 mono (2010 model) to FM80s. When designing, not exceeding 150 voc was critical. No record temp data available. Location ~ 4,000' Pacific Northwest. Recently replaced an FM80 with 6 blown FETs showing max power at 3075 watts! This from a 2205 watt array into a 24 volt battery. Max historical voc is ~120. My guess at record low temp is -10F. tc%/ºC MPP doesn't get anywhere close. What would the WM2 need to be in order to achieve 3075 watts on a 2205 watt array? BTW, 2 of the four original chargers are still working fine and one of them also shows 3075 watts max power. Edge of cloud effect against snow field at bottom of array? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Bruce Fiero-RMI >> >> >> >> "Energizing the Rogue Valley" >> >> 4115 S Pacific Hwy >> Medford, OR 97501 >> >> P: 541.535.3965 >> F: 541.512.0061 >> E: bruce at willpowerelect.com >> W: Willpower Electric, LLC >> >> CCB 191852 >> Oregon Electrical Contractor C681 >> NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38 >> DUNS 191470363 >> Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs >> >> >> **This email may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or if it appears that you have received this email in error, please advise me immediately by reply email, keep the contents confidential, and immediately delete the message and any attachments from your system. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 13:18:01 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 10:18:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM In-Reply-To: References: <1cf02cb4-4f2a-dac0-c86f-4d06c742c4c8@solarray.com> Message-ID: <8EB5232E-84D7-4D6E-9B13-002EEF47CE27@gmail.com> Hi Dan, Curious about your statement on no EQ for AGM. FullRiver, Rolls and many others have a EQ or sometimes called "conditioning charge” or something similar, that is recommended for specific situations. I am not saying that all AGM can/should have a EQ/conditioning charge. Some can, some can’t, OEM/model specific. For example I was given the following info from Full River ( 400-6 model) if the batteries are showing signs of low capacity. While they mention this low capacity situation in the manual, they don’t list the following info. I had to call them to get it. For 48v battery: Charge to 60v 4-6 hrs Charge first thing in the am 3 days in a row 1 x year Jay Peltz Power > On Nov 22, 2018, at 8:23 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > > All; I forgot to note that with the AGMs a full equalization that could temporarily stave off problems across the massively paralleled small-capacity batteries is not possible. > > I would probably spend a couple hours, no more, load testing it while watching on a thermal imager. I don't have the luxury of a Fluke battery tester. > > I would show the customer why it was designed incorrectly, show the test results and FLIR photos, and walk away. I would never take on the job of battery replacement in this situation....you will be the loser who "wrecked his system." > > > On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 05:00 Ray wrote: > Regardless of the Amazing Batcap 30 yr claims debunked by Dan, a system wired in the manner described (5 batteries in parallel, then series connecting the sets of 5 for 48 v) is just not going to charge and discharge evenly. Its violated the no more than 4 parallel strings rule, so I'm surprised it lasted even 5 years. My guess is that some of the batteries are toast and some may have a bit of life in them, since they were so grossly imbalanced, so a neighbor might be able to use a few of the best ones for a couple more years. Ultimately the rule in off grid solar is "Batteries are the Weakest Link". The customer is not going to have a decent experience until they replace that mess with a properly sized and wired battery bank from a reputable manufacturer. > > I won't take on new clients if we can't get the system up to snuff. I don't need those oh so predictable calls that the power is off again. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 11/21/18 1:06 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >> Hello All; I would question the client about the origin of this battery bank. New, used, how long in storage and in service, etc. If he bought these new, that's a very expensive battery bank! >> >> Usually when I've run into banks of massively parallel, low amp-hour sealed lead acid batteries, the origin was "a great surplus deal on a whole bunch of batteries from wheelchairs/UPS units/manufacturer overrun etc." >> >> My BS meter on the manufacturer Batcap was triggered by a few things.... >> >> -The company is focused on selling audiophiles xxxscratch thatxxx punks with car stereos so loud they set off car alarms 6 spots down. They need lots of amps right now to thump that bass. >> >> - The company name Batcap targets the capacitor boost market for this application, but actually a dedicated battery is a great idea, as it would recharge quickly from the (often up-sized) car alternator. But some folks seem to think the name implies there's a capacitor involved. There isn't. Sneaky language in the company name. >> >> - Sealed, low internal resistance, 100-125 amp-hours. Sounds like a stock AGM to me, compared to a VRSLA. >> >> - Spec sheet contains grammatical errors that indicate the writer does not speak English as a first language. >> >> - "Solar" seems to have been added to the website and battery label stickers as an afterthought....and 30 years cycle life in a solar application? Has Batcap been around for 30 years? Sounds like somebody importing Asian AGMs and sticking them with new stickers. >> >> DAN FINK >> Buckville Energy Consulting, Box Prairie CO 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 23:28 Mick Abraham wrote: >> Hello, Drake & All~ >> >> Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere & whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My reply below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the existing battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded. >> >> Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I suggest you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering shunt & a modest amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be used to measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the client won't approve that expenditure (& hourly labor for explanations), the service tech is hamstrung. Nobody can measure the health of a battery bank by just looking at it or talking about it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable "battery bad news" if they are shown the diminished capacity on a digital display after an equitably managed "pump & dump". >> >> Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements are recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series of attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the homeowner acknowledges that it's time to start afresh. >> >> Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the client has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible at getting that reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't materially blessed to be able to get new batteries, they might be better off spending limited funds on fuel for the engine generator instead of on battery testing & tutorials. >> >> The Wrench List is the Bomb~ >> >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >> www.abrahamsolar.com >> >> Landline: 970-731-4675 >> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Drake > >> To: RE-wrenches > >> Cc: >> Bcc: >> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500 >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep cycle batteries of the Batcap brand. >> >> The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce 500 AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are then wired in series to give a 48 V nominal bank. >> >> The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is about 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these batteries have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high expectations for these batteries being around for a while. >> >> My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus bar. Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them might cause the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money is worth putting into this bank? $0? >> >> The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong installer. He could use some help. What would you do in this situation? Rewire the bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> <>Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> ᐧ >> ᐧ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Thu Nov 22 14:08:10 2018 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 19:08:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? In-Reply-To: <3C2924ED-E815-497E-B02B-D21C055DE1D4@gmail.com> References: <20181121105556.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.3e576e639b.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> , <3C2924ED-E815-497E-B02B-D21C055DE1D4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Dan. You mentioned some excellent pointers. One advantage to using a 24 or 48 V system is that you don't have as bad of compatibility issues. Depending on the brand (and therefore the maximum charging voltage and maximum voltage tolerance specifications) you can flex the number of cells per string. You can't really do it with a 12 V battery because 10 cells in series is too high for a lot of equipment, and 9 cells is too low, but 9.5 cells would be just right for many brands. With a 24V system, you can use 19 cells, and with a 48V system then you can choose between 38, 39, and 40 cells depending on the equipment you're using. I am using an Outback Radian inverter, and the charge voltage for a 40 cell battery would actually void my warranty if I were to fully charge it with the inverter still connected, so because of my equipment, I use 38 cell strings. Because of this string length, I can fully charge my batteries from a generator through the inverter if I wanted, but because I have finally added enough PV, I never waste the fuel to do it. I have heard that the XW inverters can actually handle the full 40 cell voltage so if you're doing your design around Ni-Fe batteries then that might be a better choice. Jay, As far as water use... my battery powers a micro-grid and my parent's commercial building so my water usage does not accurately reflect what a house may use but we could do some math and estimate it.... * My battery is 2000 Ah @ 48V (nominal) and my PV is 18 kW, I have a 7.2 kW Bergey windmill on a 160' tower, and I have to run my 22 kW generator for a few hours perhaps 10 to 15 days per year. 1. I have heard that with water consumption is more closely related to PV size than battery size (I am not sure about that). I use roughly somewhere around 20 gallons per month. If you were to combine all my power sources, perhaps it would be fair to say that it's the equivalent of having 20 kW of PV so I would estimate that you will use 1 gallon of water every month per kW of PV. 2. If we go by battery size, I use a gallon per 100 Ah @ 48V. So if you have a 500 Ah, 48V battery then maybe it would use 5 gallons per month. If you have a 400 Ah, 24V battery then perhaps it might use 2 gallons per month. * I think that #1 above would be more accurate. Perhaps if I were to calculate out my Wh/month of charging then that would be even more accurate.... but I don't think I'll do that today. These gas differently than Lead Acid batteries... Lead acid batteries only gas when you charge them above a certain voltage (the latter part of the charge) but Ni-Fe batteries gas during all phases of the charge cycle. That's probably a large factor of why they use more water than Lead Acid batteries. * I would be really interested to hear what other's water usage might be. Dan, have you monitored your water usage at all? * Dan, do you have the auto watering system? Iron Edison did a recall a couple years ago on their auto watering system because it could concentrate hydrogen so I ended up waiting a long time for mine. Now that I finally have it, I can just hook up the pump and watch it go. It is so much easier. Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 8:42 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? Hi Dan and Kienan I’m curious how much water you are adding monthly? Jay Peltz Power. On Nov 22, 2018, at 7:08 AM, Dan Fink > wrote: Wrenches; I have run my house on 12 volt NiFe batteries for 3 years now. I was going to write a long essay, but Kienen beat me to it. It's an excellent analysis, I agree with each of his bullet points. All I'll add is that the batteries charge with decent efficiency up to 80% SOC. To get that last 20%, they do require 1.65 volts per cell, which most standalone inverter / chargers won't do off a generator - they freak out at a bit above 15v and shut down. I've used 2 tactics to get that last 20% when using a generator, and I have experienced the same issue that Kienen mentioned -- they need to get a nice strong, charge cycle every so often or else they will behave like a heavily sulfated FLA, but of course the NiFes don't sulfate. 1) after charging to 80% SOC with the generator, both of my charge controllers (outback and midnite) have no problem being programmed to a 16.5v absorb cycle, I set absorb at 6 hours, on a sunny day that does the trick here. 2) If no long, sunny day available and you are forced to use a generator and charger that won't let you get to 16.5v, remove one cell from the series string, and charge the other 9 cells. Then put the one you removed back in the string, and remove one of the ones you discharged, and generator charge again. Then re-assemble back into a 10-cell string. I've only had to do this a couple times. In general, I'm happy with these batteries, and happy to never have to deal with sulfation again, and remember I have the worst case scenario here with a 12v bank, undersized because of the greater DOD capability of NiFes, a refrigerator that surges very hard, and a magnum inverter that goes wonky with big surges at low voltages. I would sell Iron Edison NiFes to a client...but unless they are a special sort of off-grid 12v person, I'd only do 48v because of the surge issue. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP PV Associate 970.672.4342 On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:35 AM > wrote: Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd run it by you folks for an update.. Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day. db Dan Brown Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Nov 22 14:51:08 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2018 12:51:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? In-Reply-To: <3C2924ED-E815-497E-B02B-D21C055DE1D4@gmail.com> References: <20181121105556.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.3e576e639b.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> <3C2924ED-E815-497E-B02B-D21C055DE1D4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay' about 2 gallons every 40 days. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP PV Associate 970.672.4342 On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 10:50 AM Jay wrote: > Hi Dan and Kienan > > I’m curious how much water you are adding monthly? > > Jay > Peltz Power. > > On Nov 22, 2018, at 7:08 AM, Dan Fink wrote: > > Wrenches; I have run my house on 12 volt NiFe batteries for 3 years now. I > was going to write a long essay, but Kienen beat me to it. It's an > excellent analysis, I agree with each of his bullet points. > > All I'll add is that the batteries charge with decent efficiency up to 80% > SOC. To get that last 20%, they do require 1.65 volts per cell, which most > standalone inverter / chargers won't do off a generator - they freak out at > a bit above 15v and shut down. > > I've used 2 tactics to get that last 20% when using a generator, and I > have experienced the same issue that Kienen mentioned -- they need to get a > nice strong, charge cycle every so often or else they will behave like a > heavily sulfated FLA, but of course the NiFes don't sulfate. > > 1) after charging to 80% SOC with the generator, both of my charge > controllers (outback and midnite) have no problem being programmed to a > 16.5v absorb cycle, I set absorb at 6 hours, on a sunny day that does the > trick here. > > 2) If no long, sunny day available and you are forced to use a generator > and charger that won't let you get to 16.5v, remove one cell from the > series string, and charge the other 9 cells. Then put the one you removed > back in the string, and remove one of the ones you discharged, and > generator charge again. Then re-assemble back into a 10-cell string. I've > only had to do this a couple times. > > In general, I'm happy with these batteries, and happy to never have to > deal with sulfation again, and remember I have the worst case scenario here > with a 12v bank, undersized because of the greater DOD capability of NiFes, > a refrigerator that surges very hard, and a magnum inverter that goes wonky > with big surges at low voltages. > > I would sell Iron Edison NiFes to a client...but unless they are a special > sort of off-grid 12v person, I'd only do 48v because of the surge issue. > > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > NABCEP PV Associate > > 970.672.4342 > > > > > On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:35 AM wrote: > >> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre >> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe >> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with >> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd >> run it by you folks for an update.. >> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day. >> >> db >> >> >> Dan Brown >> Foxfire Energy Corp. >> Renewable Energy Systems >> (802)-483-2564 >> www.Foxfire-Energy.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Nov 23 13:32:31 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 11:32:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM...equalizing AGM In-Reply-To: <8EB5232E-84D7-4D6E-9B13-002EEF47CE27@gmail.com> References: <1cf02cb4-4f2a-dac0-c86f-4d06c742c4c8@solarray.com> <8EB5232E-84D7-4D6E-9B13-002EEF47CE27@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dan, Jay,… I’m a huge fan of equalizing AGM batteries often. Some mfg. forbid it; some recommend it for corrective procedure for lost capacity. From 16 years of simple observation and thousands of battery systems installed, customers that equalize AGM’s are getting much longer battery life compared to charging to Mfg. specs. only. A short EQ of 30 minutes after absorption is complete seems to be key. If the battery is healthy, current is extremely low at the end of Absorb. Applying 2.6 Vpc, the current rises for a short time then drops back very low. There is not enough current or time to create heat or pressure to release moisture. The EQ cycle we recommend is every 10 days or less frequently. One customer that equalizes daily is at 13 years on a set of Lifeline (Concorde) GPL-4CT batteries. Others are at 10-12 years. Customers that do not EQ seem to get 4-6 years. This is all anecdotal but having some understanding what is happening in the electrochemical process makes me a believer. Through charging and discharging, some less active areas of the plates retain unconverted lead sulphate after normal charging. These areas of sulfate continue to grow in hardness and size with each cycle and eventually form a layer with strong bonds that can't be removed through normal charging. Once this process starts (perhaps within 30 days!), these bonds continue to increase. My belief is that by applying a temporary high voltage after most PbSO4 has been recombined, these areas are targeted for recombination. Slowing the growth of irreversible sulfation results in retaining higher capacity and thus longer cycle life. Just my opinion developed over the years it took me to acquire a gray beard. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 22, 2018, at 11:18 AM, jay wrote: Hi Dan, Curious about your statement on no EQ for AGM. FullRiver, Rolls and many others have a EQ or sometimes called "conditioning charge” or something similar, that is recommended for specific situations. I am not saying that all AGM can/should have a EQ/conditioning charge. Some can, some can’t, OEM/model specific. For example I was given the following info from Full River ( 400-6 model) if the batteries are showing signs of low capacity. While they mention this low capacity situation in the manual, they don’t list the following info. I had to call them to get it. For 48v battery: Charge to 60v 4-6 hrs Charge first thing in the am 3 days in a row 1 x year Jay Peltz Power > On Nov 22, 2018, at 8:23 AM, Dan Fink > wrote: > > All; I forgot to note that with the AGMs a full equalization that could temporarily stave off problems across the massively paralleled small-capacity batteries is not possible. > > I would probably spend a couple hours, no more, load testing it while watching on a thermal imager. I don't have the luxury of a Fluke battery tester. > > I would show the customer why it was designed incorrectly, show the test results and FLIR photos, and walk away. I would never take on the job of battery replacement in this situation....you will be the loser who "wrecked his system." > > > On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 05:00 Ray wrote: > Regardless of the Amazing Batcap 30 yr claims debunked by Dan, a system wired in the manner described (5 batteries in parallel, then series connecting the sets of 5 for 48 v) is just not going to charge and discharge evenly. Its violated the no more than 4 parallel strings rule, so I'm surprised it lasted even 5 years. My guess is that some of the batteries are toast and some may have a bit of life in them, since they were so grossly imbalanced, so a neighbor might be able to use a few of the best ones for a couple more years. Ultimately the rule in off grid solar is "Batteries are the Weakest Link". The customer is not going to have a decent experience until they replace that mess with a properly sized and wired battery bank from a reputable manufacturer. > > I won't take on new clients if we can't get the system up to snuff. I don't need those oh so predictable calls that the power is off again. > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 11/21/18 1:06 AM, Dan Fink wrote: >> Hello All; I would question the client about the origin of this battery bank. New, used, how long in storage and in service, etc. If he bought these new, that's a very expensive battery bank! >> >> Usually when I've run into banks of massively parallel, low amp-hour sealed lead acid batteries, the origin was "a great surplus deal on a whole bunch of batteries from wheelchairs/UPS units/manufacturer overrun etc." >> >> My BS meter on the manufacturer Batcap was triggered by a few things.... >> >> -The company is focused on selling audiophiles xxxscratch thatxxx punks with car stereos so loud they set off car alarms 6 spots down. They need lots of amps right now to thump that bass. >> >> - The company name Batcap targets the capacitor boost market for this application, but actually a dedicated battery is a great idea, as it would recharge quickly from the (often up-sized) car alternator. But some folks seem to think the name implies there's a capacitor involved. There isn't. Sneaky language in the company name. >> >> - Sealed, low internal resistance, 100-125 amp-hours. Sounds like a stock AGM to me, compared to a VRSLA. >> >> - Spec sheet contains grammatical errors that indicate the writer does not speak English as a first language. >> >> - "Solar" seems to have been added to the website and battery label stickers as an afterthought....and 30 years cycle life in a solar application? Has Batcap been around for 30 years? Sounds like somebody importing Asian AGMs and sticking them with new stickers. >> >> DAN FINK >> Buckville Energy Consulting, Box Prairie CO 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 23:28 Mick Abraham wrote: >> Hello, Drake & All~ >> >> Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere & whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My reply below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the existing battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded. >> >> Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I suggest you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering shunt & a modest amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be used to measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the client won't approve that expenditure (& hourly labor for explanations), the service tech is hamstrung. Nobody can measure the health of a battery bank by just looking at it or talking about it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable "battery bad news" if they are shown the diminished capacity on a digital display after an equitably managed "pump & dump". >> >> Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements are recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series of attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the homeowner acknowledges that it's time to start afresh. >> >> Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the client has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible at getting that reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't materially blessed to be able to get new batteries, they might be better off spending limited funds on fuel for the engine generator instead of on battery testing & tutorials. >> >> The Wrench List is the Bomb~ >> >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >> www.abrahamsolar.com >> >> Landline: 970-731-4675 >> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Drake > >> To: RE-wrenches > >> Cc: >> Bcc: >> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500 >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep cycle batteries of the Batcap brand. >> >> The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce 500 AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are then wired in series to give a 48 V nominal bank. >> >> The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is about 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these batteries have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high expectations for these batteries being around for a while. >> >> My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus bar. Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them might cause the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money is worth putting into this bank? $0? >> >> The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong installer. He could use some help. What would you do in this situation? Rewire the bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> <>Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> OH License 44810 >> CO License 3773 >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV >> 740-448-7328 >> http://athens-electric.com/ >> >> ᐧ >> ᐧ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 13:57:13 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 11:57:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM...equalizing AGM In-Reply-To: References: <1cf02cb4-4f2a-dac0-c86f-4d06c742c4c8@solarray.com> <8EB5232E-84D7-4D6E-9B13-002EEF47CE27@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the AGM equalization info, all. My horror stories have all been with VRLAs. I will start trying the short EQ in the future after seeing the explanations.....not enough time to start releasing moisture. Best; Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP PV Associate 970.672.4342 On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 11:34 AM Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Dan, Jay,… > > I’m a huge fan of equalizing AGM batteries often. Some mfg. forbid it; > some recommend it for corrective procedure for lost capacity. From 16 years > of simple observation and thousands of battery systems installed, customers > that equalize AGM’s are getting much longer battery life compared to > charging to Mfg. specs. only. > > A short EQ of 30 minutes after absorption is complete seems to be key. If > the battery is healthy, current is extremely low at the end of Absorb. > Applying 2.6 Vpc, the current rises for a short time then drops back very > low. There is not enough current or time to create heat or pressure to > release moisture. > > The EQ cycle we recommend is every 10 days or less frequently. One > customer that equalizes *daily* is at 13 years on a set of Lifeline > (Concorde) GPL-4CT batteries. Others are at 10-12 years. Customers that do > not EQ seem to get 4-6 years. > > This is all anecdotal but having some understanding what is happening in > the electrochemical process makes me a believer. Through charging and > discharging, some less active areas of the plates retain unconverted lead > sulphate after normal charging. These areas of sulfate continue to grow in > hardness and size with each cycle and eventually form a layer with strong > bonds that can't be removed through normal charging. Once this process > starts (perhaps within 30 days!), these bonds continue to increase. My > belief is that by applying a temporary high voltage after most PbSO4 has > been recombined, these areas are targeted for recombination. Slowing the > growth of irreversible sulfation results in retaining higher capacity and > thus longer cycle life. Just my opinion developed over the years it took me > to acquire a gray beard. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Nov 23 18:00:01 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 16:00:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Infinia Stirling linear alternators generators Message-ID: <415C707A-D55A-4DC1-AAFF-D5F84D8CDC35@starlightsolar.com> Does anyone have information, technical or otherwise, on Infinia 3kW Stirling generators as shown in this photo? Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2018-11-23 at 3.57.11 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 187906 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Nov 23 19:05:22 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 17:05:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Insolation calc anyone ;) In-Reply-To: <20181121231033.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.b0de974801.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> References: <20181121231033.4bb9be2b2fe7dbe5419661c7f5dbcaaf.b0de974801.wbe@email02.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <00fbf94f-daf4-41dc-1b15-a83d09123b55@solarray.com> Is it possible that there was a lightning strike nearby, and the light flash created the high max power readings?    I'm calculating almost 1400 w/ m2, (3075/2205 x 1000 w/M2) which is high, but not insanely high.  They used to use flash testing to rate modules, so a fairly instantaneous flash can do it. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/21/18 11:10 PM, bruce at willpowerelect.com wrote: > Compadres, > > I have 4 identical arrays of 3 strings of 3 Solarworld SW 245 mono > (2010 model) to FM80s. When designing, not exceeding 150 voc was > critical. No record temp data available. Location ~ 4,000' Pacific > Northwest. Recently replaced an FM80 with 6 blown FETs showing max > power at 3075 watts! This from a 2205 watt array into a 24 volt > battery. Max historical voc is ~120. My guess at record low temp is > -10F. tc%/ºC MPP doesn't get anywhere close. What would the WM2 need > to be in order to achieve 3075 watts on a 2205 watt array? BTW, 2 of > the four original chargers are still working fine and one of them also > shows 3075 watts max power. Edge of cloud effect against snow field at > bottom of array? > > Cheers, > > Bruce Fiero-RMI > > * > * > *"*/*Energizing the Rogue Valley"*/ > > 4115 S Pacific Hwy > *Medford, OR 97501* > * > * > *P:* 541.535.3965 > *F:* 541.512.0061 > *E:* bruce at willpowerelect.com > *W:* Willpower Electric, LLC > > *CCB */191852/ > *Oregon Electrical Contractor */C681/ > **NABCEP*/**/*Certified Solar (PV) Installer *031409-38//* > *DUNS* /191470363/ > *Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally */Solar (PV) Installation & Energy > Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs / > / > /// > /**This email may contain information that is privileged, > confidential, or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable > law. If you are not the addressee, or if it appears that you have > received this email in error, please advise me immediately by reply > email, keep the contents confidential, and immediately delete the > message and any attachments from your system. / > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigimg0 Type: image/png Size: 4536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Nov 23 18:30:53 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 15:30:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback skybox In-Reply-To: <415C707A-D55A-4DC1-AAFF-D5F84D8CDC35@starlightsolar.com> References: <415C707A-D55A-4DC1-AAFF-D5F84D8CDC35@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <71B9571E-E051-4924-A57F-8E6CA75625D4@gmail.com> HI All, Anyone install a Skybox yet? And if you have comments? My questions are: Does it have module level shut down capabilities? Does it need or can it use the mate 3s or does it use some other device? thx jay peltz power From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Fri Nov 23 22:40:22 2018 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 03:40:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback skybox In-Reply-To: <71B9571E-E051-4924-A57F-8E6CA75625D4@gmail.com> References: <415C707A-D55A-4DC1-AAFF-D5F84D8CDC35@starlightsolar.com>, <71B9571E-E051-4924-A57F-8E6CA75625D4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I haven't used it but the surge load capacities are really pathetic. It also doesn't support stacking so if you need more backup power, then at least for now, you're out of luck. (I don't know if they have plans to add stacking support or not.) I would say that it is really only for grid-tied systems (no off-grid) with low to moderately low backup needs. As to your specific questions... No, it does not require any external interface. It can be programmed directly from the integrated screen and it connects directly to the internet without any external devices. I believe you still need an external router if you want to connect it to wi-fi. I don't think it even could be used with a Mate 3 (or Mate 3s). I'm not quite sure on the Rapid Shut Down. I am quite sure that they have a compatible Rapid Shut Down solution that will suffice for about 1 month and 7 days but after 2019................................. I'm not quite sure what we'll do... If anyone else can answer this question, that would be awesome! -Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of jay Sent: Friday, November 23, 2018 4:30 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback skybox HI All, Anyone install a Skybox yet? And if you have comments? My questions are: Does it have module level shut down capabilities? Does it need or can it use the mate 3s or does it use some other device? thx jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Nov 23 23:09:36 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 21:09:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown, was Re: [RE-outback skybox) In-Reply-To: References: <415C707A-D55A-4DC1-AAFF-D5F84D8CDC35@starlightsolar.com> <71B9571E-E051-4924-A57F-8E6CA75625D4@gmail.com> Message-ID: For Rapid Shutdown, I started using Midnite's BOS system, it can be set up on a string level or module level (2019) with enough receivers.  While it doesn't work with most charge controllers right now, it does work with the Magnum PT100 oddly enough.  We haven't had any glitches, the RS worked with very little fanfare. My biggest peeve is that the transmitter either runs on 120 vac or 12 vdc, so we set up a DC to DC converter.  Midnite really needs 24 v and 48 v versions of the transmitter. I don't want to use 120 vac, because then array charging becomes dependent on inverter operation.  If the inverter shuts down due to low battery, you're back into the battery death spiral problem inherent to AC coupled systems. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/23/18 8:40 PM, Kienan Maxfield wrote: > > I'm not quite sure on the Rapid Shut Down. I am quite sure that they > have a compatible Rapid Shut Down solution that will suffice for about > 1 month and 7 days but after 2019................................. I'm > not quite sure what we'll do... If anyone else can answer this > question, that would be awesome! > > > -Kienan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 02:14:55 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 01:14:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Infinia Stirling linear alternators generators In-Reply-To: <415C707A-D55A-4DC1-AAFF-D5F84D8CDC35@starlightsolar.com> References: <415C707A-D55A-4DC1-AAFF-D5F84D8CDC35@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: This is similar to the sterling engines by Volvo used in the NREL dish sterling work. they set a record of 35% DNI to electricity. Note I said DNI so this machine was meant for clear sky desert areas. I think the lead researcher was named Richard Diver? The NREL project used a liquid sodium heat transfer from the target to the head of the sterling engine. The cool side of the engine used a truck radiator and a fan. The dish diameter was 35 feet. It ran mostly in the high 20% range DNI sun to electricity. Also at one time there was a linear Sterling engine that ran from a Flame to ambient the linear engine uses a magnetic piston going back and forth inside a coil of wire. The magnetic piston was a free piston engine like the diesel pile drivers. On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 5:23 PM Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Does anyone have information, technical or otherwise, on Infinia 3kW > Stirling generators as shown in this photo? > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2018-11-23 at 3.57.11 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 187906 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2018-11-23 at 3.57.11 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 187906 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Nov 23 20:12:22 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 17:12:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback skybox In-Reply-To: <71B9571E-E051-4924-A57F-8E6CA75625D4@gmail.com> References: <415C707A-D55A-4DC1-AAFF-D5F84D8CDC35@starlightsolar.com> <71B9571E-E051-4924-A57F-8E6CA75625D4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi JJay, I sold 2 of them for install in January. It does not have a mate3s but it could be similar? I did not see module level in the manual. --Dave On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 15:30:53 -0800, jay wrote: > HI All, > > Anyone install a Skybox yet? > > And if you have comments? > > My questions are: > > Does it have module level shut down capabilities? > > Does it need or can it use the mate 3s or does it use some other device? > > thx > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 08:03:50 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 07:03:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback skybox In-Reply-To: References: <415C707A-D55A-4DC1-AAFF-D5F84D8CDC35@starlightsolar.com> <71B9571E-E051-4924-A57F-8E6CA75625D4@gmail.com> Message-ID: I understand they can work with one of the Tigo switches for rapid shutdown On Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 1:46 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net wrote: > Hi JJay, > I sold 2 of them for install in January. It does not have a mate3s but it > could be similar? I did not see module level in the manual. --Dave > > On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 15:30:53 -0800, jay wrote: > > HI All, > > > > Anyone install a Skybox yet? > > > > And if you have comments? > > > > My questions are: > > > > Does it have module level shut down capabilities? > > > > Does it need or can it use the mate 3s or does it use some other device? > > > > thx > > jay > > > > peltz power > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 13:37:14 2018 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 13:37:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Infinia Stirling linear alternators generators Message-ID: A friend of mine worked for them. I believe they went bankrupt and/or got bought out. Seemed like the usual high tech startup management cluster_____. Tech guys trying to do finance and finance guys trying to do tech. They had a good idea in that the 3kW engine didn’t require the complicated heat exchanger of larger machines. It had a linear alternator design, which simplified things as well. They also developed a cheaper mirror. Their problem was that the price of PV dropped so much that they couldn’t compete in turnkey $/kWh. There are a few orphaned arrays out there with nobody to do O&M. Unsolicited opinion: solar Stirling is a non-starter in a world of cheap PV. Stirling does have a place in small scale cogeneration. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From larry at starlightsolar.com Sat Nov 24 14:40:18 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 12:40:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Infinia Stirling linear alternators generators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Hilton and Darryl. That explains what I’m seeing here in Yuma: A 90kW installation that went slowly, and is now entirely, off line. These are the linear alternator design. Any chance your friend will have technical documents? Larry On Nov 24, 2018, at 11:37 AM, Hilton Dier wrote: A friend of mine worked for them. I believe they went bankrupt and/or got bought out. Seemed like the usual high tech startup management cluster_____. Tech guys trying to do finance and finance guys trying to do tech. They had a good idea in that the 3kW engine didn’t require the complicated heat exchanger of larger machines. It had a linear alternator design, which simplified things as well. They also developed a cheaper mirror. Their problem was that the price of PV dropped so much that they couldn’t compete in turnkey $/kWh. There are a few orphaned arrays out there with nobody to do O&M. Unsolicited opinion: solar Stirling is a non-starter in a world of cheap PV. Stirling does have a place in small scale cogeneration. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 17:06:54 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2018 16:06:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Infinia Stirling linear alternators generators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My involvement and knowledge goes way back so I have forgotten much. I think the unit was charged with Helium. Helium has a slow leak it seems. the units I was familiar with had no way to refill the helium charge. Also the rings or seas may be bad. The piston had rings, seals, and a long life was expected but if those seals went bad of course the power would drop off. I do not even remember the basic Sterling cycle, I think the piston did the valving such that the only moving part was the piston. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Thank you for the many helpful comments you have made over the years. On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 1:40 PM Starlight Solar Power Systems < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Thank you Hilton and Darryl. That explains what I’m seeing here in Yuma: A > 90kW installation that went slowly, and is now entirely, off line. > > These are the linear alternator design. Any chance your friend will have > technical documents? > > Larry > > > > On Nov 24, 2018, at 11:37 AM, Hilton Dier wrote: > > A friend of mine worked for them. I believe they went bankrupt and/or got > bought out. Seemed like the usual high tech startup management > cluster_____. Tech guys trying to do finance and finance guys trying to do > tech. > > They had a good idea in that the 3kW engine didn’t require the complicated > heat exchanger of larger machines. It had a linear alternator design, which > simplified things as well. They also developed a cheaper mirror. > > Their problem was that the price of PV dropped so much that they couldn’t > compete in turnkey $/kWh. There are a few orphaned arrays out there with > nobody to do O&M. > > Unsolicited opinion: solar Stirling is a non-starter in a world of cheap > PV. Stirling does have a place in small scale cogeneration. > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Sun Nov 25 12:25:47 2018 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier III) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 12:25:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Infinia Stirling linear alternators Message-ID: <3dbc5bbe-6c0c-32b3-47cc-9441b47d7822@gmail.com> Hi Larry, My friend might have actually supervised the installation of that array. I don't think he has any documents. Even if he did, I don't think they would be any use in refurbishing the array. Every last part in those things (aside from bolts) is specific to the machine and unobtainable. Their tech might have been bought by this company (https://www.qnergy.com/) but I'm not sure. Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Mon Nov 26 11:42:17 2018 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 08:42:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need direct-to-decking mounting foot recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The S-5 solar-foot attachment worked pretty well for us going into the decking on a metal roof. Sunmodo also makes a decking attachment option but I've never used it on a metal roof though. On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 7:59 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I have a roof-top PV project coming up where we will need to mount some of > our feet without benefit of screwing into rafters. > > > > This project is an addition to a previous project, and in that iteration > we used DPW EZ-feet. We no longer use DPW products, instead we are a > Snap-n-Rack house. I am researching if we could integrate the EZ-foot with > the Snap-N-Rack, but in the meantime I’d like to ask the hive-mind for any > recommendations on direct-to-sheeting mounting options. > > > > The roof is metal so we will screw right through the metal, into the roof > sheeting. We will seal with butyl sheets. We will connect to TJI joists > whenever possible, using longer but narrow screws, but we will fill all the > holes on the selected hardware with the properly rated screws. > > > > Any advice is much appreciated. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gmcpheeters at yahoo.com Tue Nov 27 14:31:11 2018 From: gmcpheeters at yahoo.com (Greg McPheeters) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 19:31:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need direct-to-decking mounting foot recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1876167235.3523846.1543347071324@mail.yahoo.com> Greg here from SnapNrack - we don't provide any specific support for using SnapNrack rails with the EZ-Foot product but if I were using it, it looks like the leveling slot would mate up to the rails ok.  I'd use our MLPE Mounting Kits with the thick washers to ensure you don't crush the sheetmetal of the EZ-Foot into the rail channel.  Or, if you can get the new Ultra Rail, it probably bolts right up to it and you wouldn't need those washers, although I'd still use them to stiffen up up the attachment. We've done a ton of testing of deck mounting in recent years, it's a funky space.  You should definitely plan to shorten up your spans/use more mounts than you would if you were hitting rafters -  Greg McPheeters On Wednesday, November 21, 2018, 8:46:44 PM PST, Sam Haraldson wrote: - I am researching if we could integrate the EZ-foot with the Snap-N-Rack,  William, For metal roof scenarios where rafter finding isn't an option we use EZ Feet and then attach SnapNrack rails to them.  It's a very good solution just be sure to note how much of the vertical portion of the EZ Foot interfaces with the rail.  You can't pull the rail up to the top of the foot completely.  This is hard to explain but easy to see once installing. SamOnSite Energy _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Nov 28 22:22:24 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2018 20:22:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question Message-ID: <2c61b7f2-8a59-f4e3-32a9-aa7e14230a42@sindelarsolar.com> Esteemed Wrenches: Short form, just my question: FullRiver makes a DC215-12 AGM battery, which is in the J185 profile, more akin to an L16 at 15"x7"x15" tall. I haven't used this particular battery model and it's not commonly used in solar applications. Is there any reason I should avoid it, because of shape or intended application or anything else? Background story: I'm rebuilding/upgrading one of a handful of late-1990s off grid systems that use the Michigan Energy Works transformerless inverter/charge controller on a 144V DC voltage standard. It's a rather unique product, difficult to make fully Code-compliant today given the lack of an isolation transformer between the DC and the AC. However, Code compliance isn't the issue here. The existing system uses 24 6V L16 FLAs wired in series, with a 900W array (10 BP590s from 1996) feeding them (at 5A max). I'm adding 1,560W and reducing the battery capacity using FullRiver AGMs. My question is simple: the most familiar large 12V AGMs are the 8D profile with about 260 AH (C/20 rate) and sometimes the 4D profile with about 210 AH. Both of these batteries are short, with a larger footprint, and 12 of them won't fit in the space of the 24 L16s unless they're mounted on their sides. I can do that but would prefer not to. FullRiver also makes DC215-12, which is in the J185 profile, more akin to an L16 at 15"x7"x15" tall. It fits the space. Thanks, Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Nov 28 23:53:18 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2018 21:53:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question In-Reply-To: <2c61b7f2-8a59-f4e3-32a9-aa7e14230a42@sindelarsolar.com> References: <2c61b7f2-8a59-f4e3-32a9-aa7e14230a42@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I don't see why it wouldn't have similar performance to other Fullriver products.  The problem I've had in the past, when I found that "perfect" battery model on the spec sheet, is that the distributor usually doesn't stock it, and then it either is too pricey, or too long a lead time to be practical. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/28/18 8:22 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Esteemed Wrenches: > > Short form, just my question: FullRiver makes a DC215-12 AGM battery, > which is in the J185 profile, more akin to an L16 at 15"x7"x15" tall. > I haven't used this particular battery model and it's not commonly > used in solar applications. Is there any reason I should avoid it, > because of shape or intended application or anything else? > > Background story: I'm rebuilding/upgrading one of a handful of > late-1990s off grid systems that use the Michigan Energy Works > transformerless inverter/charge controller on a 144V DC voltage > standard. It's a rather unique product, difficult to make fully > Code-compliant today given the lack of an isolation transformer > between the DC and the AC. However, Code compliance isn't the issue > here. The existing system uses 24 6V L16 FLAs wired in series, with a > 900W array (10 BP590s from 1996) feeding them (at 5A max). I'm adding > 1,560W and reducing the battery capacity using FullRiver AGMs. My > question is simple: the most familiar large 12V AGMs are the 8D > profile with about 260 AH (C/20 rate) and sometimes the 4D profile > with about 210 AH. Both of these batteries are short, with a larger > footprint, and 12 of them won't fit in the space of the 24 L16s unless > they're mounted on their sides. I can do that but would prefer not to. > FullRiver also makes DC215-12, which is in the J185 profile, more akin > to an L16 at 15"x7"x15" tall. It fits the space. > > Thanks, Allan > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Nov 29 00:31:10 2018 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2018 22:31:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question In-Reply-To: References: <2c61b7f2-8a59-f4e3-32a9-aa7e14230a42@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Ray. In this case I established availability (albeit in SoCal) and a good written price quote before posting my request here. Allan On 11/28/2018 9:53 PM, Ray wrote: > > I don't see why it wouldn't have similar performance to other > Fullriver products.  The problem I've had in the past, when I found > that "perfect" battery model on the spec sheet, is that the > distributor usually doesn't stock it, and then it either is too > pricey, or too long a lead time to be practical. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 11/28/18 8:22 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: >> >> Esteemed Wrenches: >> >> Short form, just my question: FullRiver makes a DC215-12 AGM battery, >> which is in the J185 profile, more akin to an L16 at 15"x7"x15" tall. >> I haven't used this particular battery model and it's not commonly >> used in solar applications. Is there any reason I should avoid it, >> because of shape or intended application or anything else? >> >> Background story: I'm rebuilding/upgrading one of a handful of >> late-1990s off grid systems that use the Michigan Energy Works >> transformerless inverter/charge controller on a 144V DC voltage >> standard. It's a rather unique product, difficult to make fully >> Code-compliant today given the lack of an isolation transformer >> between the DC and the AC. However, Code compliance isn't the issue >> here. The existing system uses 24 6V L16 FLAs wired in series, with a >> 900W array (10 BP590s from 1996) feeding them (at 5A max). I'm adding >> 1,560W and reducing the battery capacity using FullRiver AGMs. My >> question is simple: the most familiar large 12V AGMs are the 8D >> profile with about 260 AH (C/20 rate) and sometimes the 4D profile >> with about 210 AH. Both of these batteries are short, with a larger >> footprint, and 12 of them won't fit in the space of the 24 L16s >> unless they're mounted on their sides. I can do that but would prefer >> not to. FullRiver also makes DC215-12, which is in the J185 profile, >> more akin to an L16 at 15"x7"x15" tall. It fits the space. >> >> Thanks, Allan >> >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Nov 29 00:45:48 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2018 22:45:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question In-Reply-To: References: <2c61b7f2-8a59-f4e3-32a9-aa7e14230a42@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <8781502b-3f21-151f-6b3b-fa5e9b02ea9b@solarray.com> For your application, that battery seems like a great idea.  I had a rep from Michigan Energy Works drive all the way out to my off grid place in New Mexico back in 90s to demo that inverter. Seemed like a good idea, they just didn't have a good charge controller worked out for solar at 144 vdc at that time.  I was actually considering their inverter to provide onboard job site power on a 144 vdc electric vehicle we had built. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/28/18 10:31 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Thanks, Ray. In this case I established availability (albeit in SoCal) > and a good written price quote before posting my request here. > > Allan > > On 11/28/2018 9:53 PM, Ray wrote: >> >> I don't see why it wouldn't have similar performance to other >> Fullriver products.  The problem I've had in the past, when I found >> that "perfect" battery model on the spec sheet, is that the >> distributor usually doesn't stock it, and then it either is too >> pricey, or too long a lead time to be practical. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 11/28/18 8:22 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: >>> >>> Esteemed Wrenches: >>> >>> Short form, just my question: FullRiver makes a DC215-12 AGM >>> battery, which is in the J185 profile, more akin to an L16 at >>> 15"x7"x15" tall. I haven't used this particular battery model and >>> it's not commonly used in solar applications. Is there any reason I >>> should avoid it, because of shape or intended application or >>> anything else? >>> >>> Background story: I'm rebuilding/upgrading one of a handful of >>> late-1990s off grid systems that use the Michigan Energy Works >>> transformerless inverter/charge controller on a 144V DC voltage >>> standard. It's a rather unique product, difficult to make fully >>> Code-compliant today given the lack of an isolation transformer >>> between the DC and the AC. However, Code compliance isn't the issue >>> here. The existing system uses 24 6V L16 FLAs wired in series, with >>> a 900W array (10 BP590s from 1996) feeding them (at 5A max). I'm >>> adding 1,560W and reducing the battery capacity using FullRiver >>> AGMs. My question is simple: the most familiar large 12V AGMs are >>> the 8D profile with about 260 AH (C/20 rate) and sometimes the 4D >>> profile with about 210 AH. Both of these batteries are short, with a >>> larger footprint, and 12 of them won't fit in the space of the 24 >>> L16s unless they're mounted on their sides. I can do that but would >>> prefer not to. FullRiver also makes DC215-12, which is in the J185 >>> profile, more akin to an L16 at 15"x7"x15" tall. It fits the space. >>> >>> Thanks, Allan >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Allan Sindelar* >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> *505 780-2738 cell* >>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Nov 29 01:43:21 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2018 22:43:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question In-Reply-To: References: <2c61b7f2-8a59-f4e3-32a9-aa7e14230a42@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Allan: We have had poor luck with the 8D AGM batteries (MK/Deka). Many of them have had short life spans along with swelling, heating and even exploding. Your point about the inefficient footprint is right on. I have minimal experience with Full River. I have seen a set fail, but heck, anyone can do that in a hurry. When footprint is an issue, we have gone to racked AGMs, like the Deka Unigy. Now to get higher voltages might require custom racking, but the cells come in lots of sizes and shapes, physically and in capacity. It may be worth checking into the size of a 400 AH Unigy cell and see how they rack up. I don’t have but a smattering of drawings for the models we have purchased, but my cursory look indicates you won’t save on volume or dollars, but you may gain a smaller footprint with some Unigy racks in series. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Sindelar Solar *Sent:* Wednesday, November 28, 2018 9:31 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question Thanks, Ray. In this case I established availability (albeit in SoCal) and a good written price quote before posting my request here. Allan On 11/28/2018 9:53 PM, Ray wrote: I don't see why it wouldn't have similar performance to other Fullriver products. The problem I've had in the past, when I found that "perfect" battery model on the spec sheet, is that the distributor usually doesn't stock it, and then it either is too pricey, or too long a lead time to be practical. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/28/18 8:22 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: Esteemed Wrenches: Short form, just my question: FullRiver makes a DC215-12 AGM battery, which is in the J185 profile, more akin to an L16 at 15"x7"x15" tall. I haven't used this particular battery model and it's not commonly used in solar applications. Is there any reason I should avoid it, because of shape or intended application or anything else? Background story: I'm rebuilding/upgrading one of a handful of late-1990s off grid systems that use the Michigan Energy Works transformerless inverter/charge controller on a 144V DC voltage standard. It's a rather unique product, difficult to make fully Code-compliant today given the lack of an isolation transformer between the DC and the AC. However, Code compliance isn't the issue here. The existing system uses 24 6V L16 FLAs wired in series, with a 900W array (10 BP590s from 1996) feeding them (at 5A max). I'm adding 1,560W and reducing the battery capacity using FullRiver AGMs. My question is simple: the most familiar large 12V AGMs are the 8D profile with about 260 AH (C/20 rate) and sometimes the 4D profile with about 210 AH. Both of these batteries are short, with a larger footprint, and 12 of them won't fit in the space of the 24 L16s unless they're mounted on their sides. I can do that but would prefer not to. FullRiver also makes DC215-12, which is in the J185 profile, more akin to an L16 at 15"x7"x15" tall. It fits the space. Thanks, Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 10:22:38 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 07:22:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question In-Reply-To: References: <2c61b7f2-8a59-f4e3-32a9-aa7e14230a42@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <52A751AD-D991-4E13-A81C-DC79BE4539C2@gmail.com> Hi Allan, You check Rolls, which has a similar battery. Jay Peltz power. > On Nov 28, 2018, at 10:43 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Allan: > > We have had poor luck with the 8D AGM batteries (MK/Deka). Many of them have had short life spans along with swelling, heating and even exploding. Your point about the inefficient footprint is right on. > > I have minimal experience with Full River. I have seen a set fail, but heck, anyone can do that in a hurry. > > When footprint is an issue, we have gone to racked AGMs, like the Deka Unigy. Now to get higher voltages might require custom racking, but the cells come in lots of sizes and shapes, physically and in capacity. It may be worth checking into the size of a 400 AH Unigy cell and see how they rack up. I don’t have but a smattering of drawings for the models we have purchased, but my cursory look indicates you won’t save on volume or dollars, but you may gain a smaller footprint with some Unigy racks in series. > > William > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Sindelar Solar > Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2018 9:31 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question > > > Thanks, Ray. In this case I established availability (albeit in SoCal) and a good written price quote before posting my request here. > > Allan > > On 11/28/2018 9:53 PM, Ray wrote: > > I don't see why it wouldn't have similar performance to other Fullriver products. The problem I've had in the past, when I found that "perfect" battery model on the spec sheet, is that the distributor usually doesn't stock it, and then it either is too pricey, or too long a lead time to be practical. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 11/28/18 8:22 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Esteemed Wrenches: > > Short form, just my question: FullRiver makes a DC215-12 AGM battery, which is in the J185 profile, more akin to an L16 at 15"x7"x15" tall. I haven't used this particular battery model and it's not commonly used in solar applications. Is there any reason I should avoid it, because of shape or intended application or anything else? > > Background story: I'm rebuilding/upgrading one of a handful of late-1990s off grid systems that use the Michigan Energy Works transformerless inverter/charge controller on a 144V DC voltage standard. It's a rather unique product, difficult to make fully Code-compliant today given the lack of an isolation transformer between the DC and the AC. However, Code compliance isn't the issue here. The existing system uses 24 6V L16 FLAs wired in series, with a 900W array (10 BP590s from 1996) feeding them (at 5A max). I'm adding 1,560W and reducing the battery capacity using FullRiver AGMs. My question is simple: the most familiar large 12V AGMs are the 8D profile with about 260 AH (C/20 rate) and sometimes the 4D profile with about 210 AH. Both of these batteries are short, with a larger footprint, and 12 of them won't fit in the space of the 24 L16s unless they're mounted on their sides. I can do that but would prefer not to. FullRiver also makes DC215-12, which is in the J185 profile, more akin to an L16 at 15"x7"x15" tall. It fits the space. > > Thanks, Allan > > -- > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Nov 29 11:33:31 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 09:33:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question In-Reply-To: References: <2c61b7f2-8a59-f4e3-32a9-aa7e14230a42@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <6B4DB502-B4B6-44F6-A8CC-DA1140D5186C@starlightsolar.com> Let me confirm what William has shared about Deka/MK 8D AGM batteries; they have a very high failure rate. We saw over 40% fail within 2-3 years of installation. Deka would not own up to the problem and offered no compensation. Fullriver has been the finest AGM we have ever sold. All DC models are excellent. We especially like the 2 volt L-16’s for high capacity systems. We had one failure, and I know of one other, where L16 batteries went into thermal runaway. The cases welded together. After fully testing the power system that we designed and installed, we found no problem. Fullriver would not offer any help or replacement. Our installations are 100% battery based. When I do see failures I have many other identical power systems to compare with (in the thousands, we do 5-8 per week) and this helps me make sound judgements about our findings. Larry Crutcher 3 year old Deka 8D 1.5 year old Fullriver L-16 On Nov 28, 2018, at 11:43 PM, William Miller wrote: Allan: We have had poor luck with the 8D AGM batteries (MK/Deka). Many of them have had short life spans along with swelling, heating and even exploding. Your point about the inefficient footprint is right on. I have minimal experience with Full River. I have seen a set fail, but heck, anyone can do that in a hurry. When footprint is an issue, we have gone to racked AGMs, like the Deka Unigy. Now to get higher voltages might require custom racking, but the cells come in lots of sizes and shapes, physically and in capacity. It may be worth checking into the size of a 400 AH Unigy cell and see how they rack up. I don’t have but a smattering of drawings for the models we have purchased, but my cursory look indicates you won’t save on volume or dollars, but you may gain a smaller footprint with some Unigy racks in series. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Deka 8D AGM failure_ (2).jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27688 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0629 (1).jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24647 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 20:57:43 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 17:57:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question In-Reply-To: <6B4DB502-B4B6-44F6-A8CC-DA1140D5186C@starlightsolar.com> References: <2c61b7f2-8a59-f4e3-32a9-aa7e14230a42@sindelarsolar.com> <6B4DB502-B4B6-44F6-A8CC-DA1140D5186C@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <0B826B16-A946-4412-BEE6-46BC6A63E696@gmail.com> Hi All, My 2 cents. I’ve recently had to do some research for someone who had 16 Full River 400/6v melt down. ( 48v bank, 2-3 yrs old). Both banks, all 16 melted. In talking with a battery company expert, what I was given is the following: AGM if not charged correctly, especially if they are allowed to sulfate ( under charge), and then charged heavily during hot conditions can melt down. When flooded get sulfated they won’t accept a large charge, current is low. AGM appear to have the opposite reaction which is that they create high resistance but accept current creating lots of heat. They can’t vent the heat ( no caps and if there isn’t enough room around them they can’t expel the heat either. In a sense if they can melt together, they are too close together ) and if there is external heat to contribute then once they get to 40-50C internal they can melt down. I mentioned in a previous post that Full River has an EQ type cycle for batteries that are showing lowered capacity which is a form of sulfation and this EQ is to try and prevent this exact situation. As to MK, I don’t use them as they have very low cycle life. Those MK 8D AGM are around 700 cycles to 50%, vs Full River or Rolls AGM at around 1300 cycles to 50%. VRLA are a pretty tricky compared to flooded. jay peltz power > On Nov 29, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > > Let me confirm what William has shared about Deka/MK 8D AGM batteries; they have a very high failure rate. We saw over 40% fail within 2-3 years of installation. Deka would not own up to the problem and offered no compensation. > > Fullriver has been the finest AGM we have ever sold. All DC models are excellent. We especially like the 2 volt L-16’s for high capacity systems. We had one failure, and I know of one other, where L16 batteries went into thermal runaway. The cases welded together. After fully testing the power system that we designed and installed, we found no problem. Fullriver would not offer any help or replacement. > > Our installations are 100% battery based. When I do see failures I have many other identical power systems to compare with (in the thousands, we do 5-8 per week) and this helps me make sound judgements about our findings. > > Larry Crutcher > > 3 year old Deka 8D > > > 1.5 year old Fullriver L-16 > > > > On Nov 28, 2018, at 11:43 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > Allan: > > We have had poor luck with the 8D AGM batteries (MK/Deka). Many of them have had short life spans along with swelling, heating and even exploding. Your point about the inefficient footprint is right on. > > I have minimal experience with Full River. I have seen a set fail, but heck, anyone can do that in a hurry. > > When footprint is an issue, we have gone to racked AGMs, like the Deka Unigy. Now to get higher voltages might require custom racking, but the cells come in lots of sizes and shapes, physically and in capacity. It may be worth checking into the size of a 400 AH Unigy cell and see how they rack up. I don’t have but a smattering of drawings for the models we have purchased, but my cursory look indicates you won’t save on volume or dollars, but you may gain a smaller footprint with some Unigy racks in series. > > William > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Nov 29 23:22:46 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 21:22:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FullRiver battery question In-Reply-To: <0B826B16-A946-4412-BEE6-46BC6A63E696@gmail.com> References: <2c61b7f2-8a59-f4e3-32a9-aa7e14230a42@sindelarsolar.com> <6B4DB502-B4B6-44F6-A8CC-DA1140D5186C@starlightsolar.com> <0B826B16-A946-4412-BEE6-46BC6A63E696@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Thanks for that info on AGM behavior.  I've advocated for years that charge controller temp sensors should also be used to sense over temp and shut down or reduce charge current.  Midnite added this feature to their Classic charge controllers. Its a bit hard to find, but you can set the temp to shut off at the battery manufacturer's  highest recommended temperature.  Besides catastrophic melt downs,  high temps can greatly reduce a battery's cycle life. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 11/29/18 6:57 PM, jay wrote: > Hi All, > > My 2 cents. > > I’ve recently had to do some research for someone who had 16 Full > River 400/6v melt down.  ( 48v bank, 2-3 yrs old). Both banks, all 16 > melted. > In talking with a battery company expert, what I was given is the > following:  AGM if not charged correctly, especially if they are > allowed to sulfate ( under charge), and then charged heavily during > hot conditions can melt down. When  flooded get sulfated they won’t > accept a large charge, current is low.   AGM appear to have the > opposite reaction which is that they create high resistance but accept > current creating lots of heat.  They can’t vent the heat ( no caps >  and if there isn’t enough room around them they can’t expel the heat > either.  In a sense if they can melt together, they are too close > together ) and if there is external heat to contribute then once they > get to 40-50C internal they can melt down.  I mentioned in a previous > post that Full River has an EQ type cycle for batteries that are > showing lowered capacity which is a form of sulfation and this EQ is > to try and prevent this exact situation. > > As to MK, I don’t use them as they have very low cycle life.  Those MK > 8D AGM are around 700 cycles to 50%, vs Full River or Rolls AGM at > around 1300 cycles to 50%. > > VRLA  are a pretty tricky compared to flooded. > > jay > peltz power > > >> On Nov 29, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems >> > wrote: >> >> Let me confirm what William has shared about Deka/MK 8D AGM >> batteries; they have a very high failure rate. We saw over 40% fail >> within 2-3 years of installation. Deka would not own up to the >> problem and offered no compensation. >> >> Fullriver has been the finest AGM we have ever sold. All DC models >> are excellent. We especially like the 2 volt L-16’s for high capacity >> systems. We had one failure, and I know of one other, where L16 >> batteries went into thermal runaway. The cases welded together. After >> fully testing the power system that we designed and installed, we >> found no problem. Fullriver would not offer any help or replacement. >> >> Our installations are 100% battery based. When I do see failures I >> have many other identical power systems to compare with (in the >> thousands, we do 5-8 per week) and this helps me make sound >> judgements about our findings. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> >> *3 year old Deka 8D* >> >> >> *1.5 year old Fullriver L-16* >> >> >> >> On Nov 28, 2018, at 11:43 PM, William Miller > > wrote: >> >> Allan: >> >> We have had poor luck with the 8D AGM batteries (MK/Deka).  Many of >> them have had short life spans along with swelling, heating and even >> exploding. Your point about the inefficient footprint is right on. >> >> I have minimal experience with Full River.  I have seen a set fail, >> but heck, anyone can do that in a hurry. >> >> When footprint is an issue, we have gone to racked AGMs, like the >> Deka Unigy.  Now to get higher voltages might require custom racking, >> but the cells come in lots of sizes and shapes, physically and in >> capacity.  It may be worth checking into the size of a 400 AH Unigy >> cell and see how they rack up.  I don’t have but a smattering of >> drawings for the models we have purchased, but my cursory look >> indicates you won’t save on volume or dollars,  but you may gain a >> smaller footprint with some Unigy racks in series. >> >> William >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 13:21:02 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 11:21:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: <806731a4aeccc916a1a1ae8c56b44f97@mail.gmail.com> References: <545F9F32-2DF9-4858-AA5E-45D6BA389246@gmail.com> <806731a4aeccc916a1a1ae8c56b44f97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William, I am interested in your control by web solution for the mate lock up. Is that a specific controller that does that or have you modified something? Could it be used to reboot routers/modems as well? Thanks On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 7:44 PM William Miller wrote: > Jay: > > > > I have problems with all of my Mate3 and 3s controllers locking up. So > much so that I have implemented the following steps: > > > > 1. For most installations I leave the hub wire cover off and label > the Mate lead. Clients are instructed to unplug and re-plug the Cat5 lead > whenever the Mate locks up. > > 2. On one installation I have a Control By Web unit ping both Mate3 > units every 5 minutes. If either fails to respond after 3 attempts, a > relay opens and closes the Orange/white leads which power cycles the > Mates. > > > > Locking up of Mates is a fact of life with Outback equipment. I love the > equipment and I hate the equipment. > > > > William > > > > > > > > [image: Gradient Cap_mini] > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Lones Tuss > *Sent:* Friday, November 16, 2018 12:42 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking > > > > Hello All > > And > > Hello Jay > > I just asked the tech support boss on this as I had no idea. > > He has a test setup that allows him to switch individuals lines on the > cat5 cables. > > We can duplicate Jay’s screen shot below by opening the some of the lines > to the cat 5 cable. > > > > So as a start try replacing the cat5 between the Mate3S and the Hub. > > Using the silicone grease that comes with a Mate is never a bad idea. > > If your customer does not have a cable on hand I would try removing the > cable several times perhaps that could help to dislodge any corrosion or > dust on the connections. > > > > I hope this helps. > > Take Care All > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of jay > > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:05 AM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking > > > > ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or > requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** > ________________________________ > > > > HI All, > > > > I’m wondering if anyone else is having mate 3s locking up problems? > > > > I’ve got 2 systems that have had this happen. > > > > One is a big system ( 2 radians and 5 CC). Of course its a long ways away > and no there isn’t internet so no OpticsRE. > > > > Its been reprogramed with latest REV firmware. No change. > > > > thx > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6354 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 13:28:11 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 11:28:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: <2a4bd197cb6a7ee41cd144409f463cfb@127.0.0.1> References: <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2a4bd197cb6a7ee41cd144409f463cfb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hi Dave Angelini and wrenches, I'm curious how you are controlling the Combox without port-forwarding set up. I have a lot of clients on Hughes net and they won't open ports their customers. Will the new Combox or gateway product get around that? Thanks On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 12:06 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Hi Drake, > > I use both Outback and Schneider for my 200+ offgrid clients. Since the > 600v mppt came out in 2011 Schneider gets my business. I also test for them > and I am now working on the XW Pro for circuit validation testing and new > cloud based gateway replacement for Combox in an EFT. > > As for user friendly, it is something new to learn and once a client gets > up to speed it is pretty easy, I think! Some of my clients do not like all > of this tech stuff and just want reliable power. I get it! > > There were early problems with combox firmware that got solved. The new > Conext gateway allows me to monitor my clients without special port > forwarding and easy with cell. The Insight monitoring similar to Optics but > easier to use occasionally has had issues but nothing that took long for > them to fix. There is also a tablet ap. > > You can contact me offline and I agree that it is pretty bad when issues > take too long to resolve. maybe Outback will get it done! > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 10:43:09 -0500, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > wrote: > > It seems like Outback has too many problems now, with the Mate 3 and the > discontinuation of the original, excellent FX inverters. I had a Mate 3 > loose its programming on an AC coupled system so that the batteries had no > protective relay until the Mate 3 was reprogrammed. Tech support said that > this happens with the Mate 3. That is unacceptable. Fortunately it was a > dual FX system, and I had the original Mate to put back on it. > > How do the Xantrex / Schneider products compare regarding reliability and > user friendliness? Are there any downsides to using this equipment. I'm > considering going full circle back to this line. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > "RE-wrenches" > > To: > , "RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > Cc: > > Sent: > Fri, 16 Nov 2018 19:39:26 -0800 > Subject: > Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking > > > > Hi william > > Very tech fix with the relay! > > Fortunately or unfortunately there is no reliable web at the location but > someone who manually checks things. > > Yes the 3s still has some of the same problems > > Thx > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > On Nov 16, 2018, at 2:14 PM, William Miller > wrote: > > Jay: > > > > I have problems with all of my Mate3 and 3s controllers locking up. So > much so that I have implemented the following steps: > > > > 1. For most installations I leave the hub wire cover off and label > the Mate lead. Clients are instructed to unplug and re-plug the Cat5 lead > whenever the Mate locks up. > > 2. On one installation I have a Control By Web unit ping both Mate3 > units every 5 minutes. If either fails to respond after 3 attempts, a > relay opens and closes the Orange/white leads which power cycles the > Mates. > > > > Locking up of Mates is a fact of life with Outback equipment. I love the > equipment and I hate the equipment. > > > > William > > > > > > > > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Lones Tuss > *Sent:* Friday, November 16, 2018 12:42 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking > > > > Hello All > > And > > Hello Jay > > I just asked the tech support boss on this as I had no idea. > > He has a test setup that allows him to switch individuals lines on the > cat5 cables. > > We can duplicate Jay's screen shot below by opening the some of the lines > to the cat 5 cable. > > > > > > So as a start try replacing the cat5 between the Mate3S and the Hub. > > Using the silicone grease that comes with a Mate is never a bad idea. > > If your customer does not have a cable on hand I would try removing the > cable several times perhaps that could help to dislodge any corrosion or > dust on the connections. > > > > I hope this helps. > > Take Care All > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of jay > > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:05 AM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking > > > > ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or > requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** > ________________________________ > > > > HI All, > > > > I'm wondering if anyone else is having mate 3s locking up problems? > > > > I've got 2 systems that have had this happen. > > > > One is a big system ( 2 radians and 5 CC). Of course its a long ways away > and no there isn't internet so no OpticsRE. > > > > Its been reprogramed with latest REV firmware. No change. > > > > thx > > > > jay > > > > peltz power > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Nov 30 19:22:16 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 16:22:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: References: <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2a4bd197cb6a7ee41cd144409f463cfb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hi Mac, I use a cell for some clients with combox. I use Conext Insight for some, it is a web portal like outbacks optics. Insight is nice because I just look at a specific site and if I see green, I do not really worry too much. It is read only and that is how Schneider gets around port forwarding. It has everything that is on the combox from a data push out only. At this time I am field testing XW pro which will use the conext gateway and adds the first wifi monitoring to the power scene. Insight 2 will be out around february and it is read/ right into the conext gateway. I like the new user interface alot more and it has a fresh new look that works for me. The xwp has the cal rule 21 for grid and microgrid, better parameters in the power electronics that may add some flexibility in a higher power rating/surge than the current 6.8kw. Living large here now that we finally got to fill our 18 K gallons of tanks with rain! We were down to 3K and that is bare minimum for a wildfire. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 30 Nov 2018 11:28:11 -0700, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Dave Angelini and wrenches, I'm curious how you are controlling the Combox without port-forwarding set up. I have a lot of clients on Hughes net and they won't open ports their customers. Will the new Combox or gateway product get around that? Thanks On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 12:06 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Hi Drake, I use both Outback and Schneider for my 200+ offgrid clients. Since the 600v mppt came out in 2011 Schneider gets my business. I also test for them and I am now working on the XW Pro for circuit validation testing and new cloud based gateway replacement for Combox in an EFT. As for user friendly, it is something new to learn and once a client gets up to speed it is pretty easy, I think! Some of my clients do not like all of this tech stuff and just want reliable power. I get it! There were early problems with combox firmware that got solved. The new Conext gateway allows me to monitor my clients without special port forwarding and easy with cell. The Insight monitoring similar to Optics but easier to use occasionally has had issues but nothing that took long for them to fix. There is also a tablet ap. You can contact me offline and I agree that it is pretty bad when issues take too long to resolve. maybe Outback will get it done! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [5] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 10:43:09 -0500, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [6] wrote: It seems like Outback has too many problems now, with the Mate 3 and the discontinuation of the original, excellent FX inverters. I had a Mate 3 loose its programming on an AC coupled system so that the batteries had no protective relay until the Mate 3 was reprogrammed. Tech support said that this happens with the Mate 3. That is unacceptable. Fortunately it was a dual FX system, and I had the original Mate to put back on it. How do the Xantrex / Schneider products compare regarding reliability and user friendliness? Are there any downsides to using this equipment. I'm considering going full circle back to this line. Thanks, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" To: , "RE-wrenches" Cc: Sent: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 19:39:26 -0800 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Hi william Very tech fix with the relay! Fortunately or unfortunately there is no reliable web at the location but someone who manually checks things. Yes the 3s still has some of the same problems Thx Jay Peltz power. On Nov 16, 2018, at 2:14 PM, William Miller wrote: Jay: I have problems with all of my Mate3 and 3s controllers locking up. So much so that I have implemented the following steps: 1. For most installations I leave the hub wire cover off and label the Mate lead. Clients are instructed to unplug and re-plug the Cat5 lead whenever the Mate locks up. 2. On one installation I have a Control By Web unit ping both Mate3 units every 5 minutes. If either fails to respond after 3 attempts, a relay opens and closes the Orange/white leads which power cycles the Mates. Locking up of Mates is a fact of life with Outback equipment. I love the equipment and I hate the equipment. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com [11] 805-438-5600 FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [12]] ON BEHALF OF Lones Tuss SENT: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:42 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Hello All And Hello Jay I just asked the tech support boss on this as I had no idea. He has a test setup that allows him to switch individuals lines on the cat5 cables. We can duplicate Jay's screen shot below by opening the some of the lines to the cat 5 cable. So as a start try replacing the cat5 between the Mate3S and the Hub. Using the silicone grease that comes with a Mate is never a bad idea. If your customer does not have a cable on hand I would try removing the cable several times perhaps that could help to dislodge any corrosion or dust on the connections. I hope this helps. Take Care All -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ HI All, I'm wondering if anyone else is having mate 3s locking up problems? I've got 2 systems that have had this happen. One is a big system ( 2 radians and 5 CC). Of course its a long ways away and no there isn't internet so no OpticsRE. Its been reprogramed with latest REV firmware. No change. thx jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [17] List rules border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin-left: 5px; width: 100%;"> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [20] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [22] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [23] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [24] -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [25] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [26] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [27] List rules font-family: 'times new roman', serif;"> Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [30] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [31] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [6] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [7] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] mailto:william at millersolar.com [9] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] mailto:william at millersolar.com [11] http://www.millersolar.com/ [12] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [18] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [21] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [23] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [24] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [25] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [26] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [27] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [28] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [29] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [30] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [31] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Web Portal Insight.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 227807 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Dec 1 12:27:47 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 09:27:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for Comm site In-Reply-To: References: <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2a4bd197cb6a7ee41cd144409f463cfb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <8ba6502e-e767-3731-d89b-b2b8b1714c09@psln.com> Sierra wrenches,             My 30 years of installation has never included comm sites on mountain tops but I took the job..... I am proposing mounting PVs vertically towards the top of the south wall of a 2 story block building to avoid snow build-up.  I assume a pole-mount would be next in line if we needed more sq ft of PV.  However, even if vertical, will Sierra snow (its a special breed) still wind-pack on, stay for weeks, days, not at all?  This site is on the Pacific crest at 7,000 ft.             And then  due to potential temps down to -30F, I assume a WELL insulated battery box (maybe even back-up heat?). It seems the best choice would be to use AGM/VRLA/Gel?    Part my reason for looking for help is my customer's loads will only be 12 volt and wants to avoid the cost of an inverter.  This seems a little risky not to have an inverter/charger for back-up. Appreciate the advice. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dana at solarwork.com Sat Dec 1 17:13:44 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 15:13:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for Comm site In-Reply-To: <8ba6502e-e767-3731-d89b-b2b8b1714c09@psln.com> References: <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2a4bd197cb6a7ee41cd144409f463cfb@127.0.0.1> <8ba6502e-e767-3731-d89b-b2b8b1714c09@psln.com> Message-ID: <000a01d489c3$20f481f0$62dd85d0$@solarwork.com> Hey Bill - In 1996-97? I did a project for CDOT on Red Mtn #3 @ 13,200" el. Dry Rocky Mtn snow. We bolted the top of the array to the eve of the very small block building with a welded framework to hold the [16] 75-watt {The biggies back then} . As I recall we installed the modules at winter latitude plus 10 deg and never had an issue somewhere around 58-60 degrees. Avalanches start at 32 deg+/- so any movement should & did slide just fine. We installed 13,200# of AGM [30 days of battery backup] and a SWWP air wind generator, that lost its blades before the next spring, the anemometer lost its cups at 200+MPH as the jet stream touched down at least once. Who would have figured that one? There was an LPG backup heater for the building, but it was not working by spring [High winds? probably]. I have lost track of the project as state communication managers changed & contact was not reestablished. Overbuild, keep it simple, design for middle of the winter. Back then we used relay style charge controllers, the previous system had blown up all the previous CCs. I allowed for 50% head room and we never lost another controller or fuse. We were seeing over 45-50% additional gain at 13,200' elevation. 75 watt modules were pushing 105-110 watts each. Kyocera LA 51? I think? 7000' would not be as extreme an enhancement. Edge of cloud effect?, 7,000' elevation +20%+/-, reflection off the snow 10-15%, & -30F look at the temp curve and still give it another 10% of room. Site visits in the winter @ these sites are slow all-day projects. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2018 10:28 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for Comm site Sierra wrenches, My 30 years of installation has never included comm sites on mountain tops but I took the job..... I am proposing mounting PVs vertically towards the top of the south wall of a 2 story block building to avoid snow build-up. I assume a pole-mount would be next in line if we needed more sq ft of PV. However, even if vertical, will Sierra snow (its a special breed) still wind-pack on, stay for weeks, days, not at all? This site is on the Pacific crest at 7,000 ft. And then due to potential temps down to -30F, I assume a WELL insulated battery box (maybe even back-up heat?). It seems the best choice would be to use AGM/VRLA/Gel? Part my reason for looking for help is my customer's loads will only be 12 volt and wants to avoid the cost of an inverter. This seems a little risky not to have an inverter/charger for back-up. Appreciate the advice. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Sat Dec 1 17:18:56 2018 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 15:18:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for Comm site In-Reply-To: <8ba6502e-e767-3731-d89b-b2b8b1714c09@psln.com> References: <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2a4bd197cb6a7ee41cd144409f463cfb@127.0.0.1> <8ba6502e-e767-3731-d89b-b2b8b1714c09@psln.com> Message-ID: > > However, even if vertical, will Sierra snow (its a special breed) still > wind-pack on, stay for weeks, days, not at all? This site is on the > Pacific crest at 7,000 ft. > Yes, the "Sierra cement" is not the same as the "cold smoke" snow we get in my part of the country but I see that snow tends to pretty easily slough off arrays that are at and above the 35 deg angle. Even the wettest Sierra stuff sure doesn't seem like it could stick to glass at a 90 degree angle. I suspect you could get away with 60 deg, have better production, and still shed the snow. -- Sam Haraldson, Installation Manager onsiteenergyinc.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sat Dec 1 18:27:28 2018 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 15:27:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for Comm site In-Reply-To: References: <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2a4bd197cb6a7ee41cd144409f463cfb@127.0.0.1> <8ba6502e-e767-3731-d89b-b2b8b1714c09@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill, I’ve installed dozens of mountain top systems starting just North of you, and spreading from the coast to the Nevada border and up into Central Oregon. Fire lookouts, Repeaters, Cell towers, ect…. Cascade and Coastal Cement. I count on arrays at 60 degrees getting entombed in snow and ice for weeks. I’ve seen the walls of most buildings encased in ice too! Lookouts get shut down for six months, and maybe minimal loads stay on, like weather equipment. When full time power is required, then propane or diesel generators and room heaters are installed, often tandem generators that alternate usage and act as backups. Many of my previous customers required a rapid response if there was a power failure and that meant serious adventure. I’m kind of over it now, many of those clients technicians also take care of the power end of things. Michael > On Dec 1, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Sam Haraldson wrote: > > However, even if vertical, will Sierra snow (its a special breed) still > wind-pack on, stay for weeks, days, not at all? This site is on the > Pacific crest at 7,000 ft. > > Yes, the "Sierra cement" is not the same as the "cold smoke" snow we get in my part of the country but I see that snow tends to pretty easily slough off arrays that are at and above the 35 deg angle. Even the wettest Sierra stuff sure doesn't seem like it could stick to glass at a 90 degree angle. I suspect you could get away with 60 deg, have better production, and still shed the snow. > > -- > Sam Haraldson, Installation Manager > onsiteenergyinc.com _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Dec 1 19:43:23 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 17:43:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for Comm site In-Reply-To: References: <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2a4bd197cb6a7ee41cd144409f463cfb@127.0.0.1> <8ba6502e-e767-3731-d89b-b2b8b1714c09@psln.com> Message-ID: Has any one tried insulating the back side of the solar module? I know normally that would be a really bad idea, but if the system was over designed in the summer, and flat on the wall, you could get away with it.  That dark surface under the glass with 2" of foam board backing would probably get warm enough to shed at least some of the build up, when the sun came out.  I've seen solar thermal systems go to almost 300 degrees F with air temps below freezing. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/1/18 4:27 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote: > Bill, > I’ve installed dozens of mountain top systems starting just North of > you, and spreading from the coast to the Nevada border and up into > Central Oregon. Fire lookouts, Repeaters, Cell towers, ect…. Cascade > and Coastal Cement. I count on arrays at 60 degrees getting entombed > in snow and ice for weeks. I’ve seen the walls of most buildings > encased in ice too! Lookouts get shut down for six months, and maybe > minimal loads stay on, like weather equipment. When full time power is > required, then propane or diesel generators and room heaters are > installed, often tandem generators that alternate usage and act as > backups. Many of my previous customers required a rapid response if > there was a power failure and that meant serious adventure. I’m kind > of over it now, many of those clients technicians also take care of > the power end of things. > Michael > >> On Dec 1, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Sam Haraldson > > wrote: >> >> However, even if vertical, will Sierra snow (its a special breed) >> still >> wind-pack on, stay for weeks, days, not at all? This site is on the >> Pacific crest at 7,000 ft. >> >> >> Yes, the "Sierra cement" is not the same as the "cold smoke" snow we >> get in my part of the country but I see that snow tends to pretty >> easily slough off arrays that are at and above the 35 deg angle.  >> Even the wettest Sierra stuff sure doesn't seem like it could stick >> to glass at a 90 degree angle.  I suspect you could get away with 60 >> deg, have better production, and still shed the snow. >> >> -- >> Sam Haraldson, Installation Manager >> onsiteenergyinc.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Dec 1 16:47:11 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 13:47:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems Message-ID: <711ff3afc50dc143094d1bd26e71719d@mail.gmail.com> Wrenches: I am reaching out to this group to see if anyone is having the problems we are. At least 50% of the Radian inverters and/or GSLC cabinets we order arrive missing some part or piece required to install the inverter. Sometimes it is one or more of the bus bars to connect the main DC breaker to the inverter, sometimes it is one of the 8mm nuts required on these bus bars, and the most recent order, and on our most recent order, one of the inverters was missing the 8mm bolts and washers required to connect the bus bars to the inverter plus and minus ports. We have been having this problem for years. Has anyone else experienced this, or is it just me? Also, the shunts provided in the GSLC cabinets are crap. It used to be the shunts had a solid base. Now the bases are hollow. We use to see these shunt bases cracked almost 100% of the time in shipping because the long, cantilevered negative bus bar was entirely supported at one end by the shunt. Any modest bump on the GSLC cabinet broke the shunt. Now we receive them intact because Alpha has stopped installing the shunt prior to shipping. The problem persists, however, because if you put the slightest pressure on the negative bus bar to align the holes to install the bolts (if they arrive), minimal strain in the base of the shunt cracks it. See the photos below of the old versus new style shunt. Each of these problems slows down an install and creates frustration. This persistent pattern is really not acceptable. Lones, please investigate these problems and let us know if they can be rectified. And please, send me a set of the 8mm bolts. Thank you, William Miller [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1803 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Dec 1 17:34:21 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2018 17:34:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for Comm site Message-ID: Maybe an application of Rain-x to the modules would help. Of course not on anything with a topical anti-reflective surface. Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------From: frenergyDate: Sat, Dec 1, 2018 1:20 PMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for Comm site Sierra wrenches,             My 30 years of installation has never included comm sites on mountain tops but I took the job..... I am proposing mounting PVs vertically towards the top of the south wall of a 2 story block building to avoid snow build-up.  I assume a pole-mount would be next in line if we needed more sq ft of PV.  However, even if vertical, will Sierra snow (its a special breed) still wind-pack on, stay for weeks, days, not at all?  This site is on the Pacific crest at 7,000 ft.             And then  due to potential temps down to -30F, I assume a WELL insulated battery box (maybe even back-up heat?). It seems the best choice would be to use AGM/VRLA/Gel?    Part my reason for looking for help is my customer's loads will only be 12 volt and wants to avoid the cost of an inverter.  This seems a little risky not to have an inverter/charger for back-up. Appreciate the advice. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Dec 1 17:43:40 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 17:43:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: References: <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2a4bd197cb6a7ee41cd144409f463cfb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <006701d489c7$5089c390$f19d4ab0$@glbcc.com> I have found that using only the Conext portal for troubleshooting is valueless… The level of detail and remote control is lost, and I have resorted to installing a remote PC control application on a laptop and leaving it at the customer’s site for a few months to be able to collect and control a troublesome system using a local connection to the Combox. I found TeamViewer allows bi-directional control of the laptop (lid closed and mouse disconnected) from anywhere without having to setup a VPN or opening ports on a customer’s router, or using a dynamic DNS service. They even have an app that lets me access it from my phone, a PC or a website. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 7:22 PM To: Mac Lewis Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Hi Mac, I use a cell for some clients with combox. I use Conext Insight for some, it is a web portal like outbacks optics. Insight is nice because I just look at a specific site and if I see green, I do not really worry too much. It is read only and that is how Schneider gets around port forwarding. It has everything that is on the combox from a data push out only. At this time I am field testing XW pro which will use the conext gateway and adds the first wifi monitoring to the power scene. Insight 2 will be out around february and it is read/ right into the conext gateway. I like the new user interface alot more and it has a fresh new look that works for me. The xwp has the cal rule 21 for grid and microgrid, better parameters in the power electronics that may add some flexibility in a higher power rating/surge than the current 6.8kw. Living large here now that we finally got to fill our 18 K gallons of tanks with rain! We were down to 3K and that is bare minimum for a wildfire. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 30 Nov 2018 11:28:11 -0700, Mac Lewis > wrote: Hi Dave Angelini and wrenches, I'm curious how you are controlling the Combox without port-forwarding set up. I have a lot of clients on Hughes net and they won't open ports their customers. Will the new Combox or gateway product get around that? Thanks On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 12:06 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: Hi Drake, I use both Outback and Schneider for my 200+ offgrid clients. Since the 600v mppt came out in 2011 Schneider gets my business. I also test for them and I am now working on the XW Pro for circuit validation testing and new cloud based gateway replacement for Combox in an EFT. As for user friendly, it is something new to learn and once a client gets up to speed it is pretty easy, I think! Some of my clients do not like all of this tech stuff and just want reliable power. I get it! There were early problems with combox firmware that got solved. The new Conext gateway allows me to monitor my clients without special port forwarding and easy with cell. The Insight monitoring similar to Optics but easier to use occasionally has had issues but nothing that took long for them to fix. There is also a tablet ap. You can contact me offline and I agree that it is pretty bad when issues take too long to resolve. maybe Outback will get it done! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 10:43:09 -0500, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: It seems like Outback has too many problems now, with the Mate 3 and the discontinuation of the original, excellent FX inverters. I had a Mate 3 loose its programming on an AC coupled system so that the batteries had no protective relay until the Mate 3 was reprogrammed. Tech support said that this happens with the Mate 3. That is unacceptable. Fortunately it was a dual FX system, and I had the original Mate to put back on it. How do the Xantrex / Schneider products compare regarding reliability and user friendliness? Are there any downsides to using this equipment. I'm considering going full circle back to this line. Thanks, Drake ----- Original Message ----- From: "RE-wrenches" > To: >, "RE-wrenches" > Cc: Sent: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 19:39:26 -0800 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Hi william Very tech fix with the relay! Fortunately or unfortunately there is no reliable web at the location but someone who manually checks things. Yes the 3s still has some of the same problems Thx Jay Peltz power. On Nov 16, 2018, at 2:14 PM, William Miller > wrote: Jay: I have problems with all of my Mate3 and 3s controllers locking up. So much so that I have implemented the following steps: 1. For most installations I leave the hub wire cover off and label the Mate lead. Clients are instructed to unplug and re-plug the Cat5 lead whenever the Mate locks up. 2. On one installation I have a Control By Web unit ping both Mate3 units every 5 minutes. If either fails to respond after 3 attempts, a relay opens and closes the Orange/white leads which power cycles the Mates. Locking up of Mates is a fact of life with Outback equipment. I love the equipment and I hate the equipment. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Lones Tuss Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 12:42 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Hello All And Hello Jay I just asked the tech support boss on this as I had no idea. He has a test setup that allows him to switch individuals lines on the cat5 cables. We can duplicate Jay's screen shot below by opening the some of the lines to the cat 5 cable. So as a start try replacing the cat5 between the Mate3S and the Hub. Using the silicone grease that comes with a Mate is never a bad idea. If your customer does not have a cable on hand I would try removing the cable several times perhaps that could help to dislodge any corrosion or dust on the connections. I hope this helps. Take Care All -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of jay Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:05 AM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ HI All, I'm wondering if anyone else is having mate 3s locking up problems? I've got 2 systems that have had this happen. One is a big system ( 2 radians and 5 CC). Of course its a long ways away and no there isn't internet so no OpticsRE. Its been reprogramed with latest REV firmware. No change. thx jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 09:04:46 2018 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 09:04:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vertical PVs for Comm site Message-ID: <8E902C81-FD88-47C3-A213-FB26582B71FB@gmail.com> Bill My customer alarm just went off. This potential client is putting in a comm site at 7000’ and is concerned about the *cost* of an inverter? I can understand the desire for reliability, and so going for direct DC. But given the logistics and engineering of a high altitude remote site I’d be cautious about doing a job for someone penny pinching on an inverter. Not exactly the advice you were asking for, but it jumped out at me. Hilton Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Dec 2 11:29:06 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2018 08:29:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: <006701d489c7$5089c390$f19d4ab0$@glbcc.com> References: <39501f9349ebd2887e7bb1b5c4e4bc7e32e8ff0c@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> <2a4bd197cb6a7ee41cd144409f463cfb@127.0.0.1> <006701d489c7$5089c390$f19d4ab0$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <59f0ce1ab6295862e80c315a1766e61f@127.0.0.1> Well Glen that is why they are coming out with the new web portal Insight 2 I do agree that team viewer is excellent and we have used it over the years with the product development, EFT's, border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> I have found that using only the Conext portal for troubleshooting is valueless... The level of detail and remote control is lost, and I have resorted to installing a remote PC control application on a laptop and leaving it at the customer's site for a few months to be able to collect and control a troublesome system using a local connection to the Combox. I found TeamViewer allows bi-directional control of the laptop (lid closed and mouse disconnected) from anywhere without having to setup a VPN or opening ports on a customer's router, or using a dynamic DNS service. They even have an app that lets me access it from my phone, a PC or a website. -Glenn FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar SENT: Friday, November 30, 2018 7:22 PM TO: Mac Lewis CC: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Hi Mac, I use a cell for some clients with combox. I use Conext Insight for some, it is a web portal like outbacks optics. Insight is nice because I just look at a specific site and if I see green, I do not really worry too much. It is read only and that is how Schneider gets around port forwarding. It has everything that is on the combox from a data push out only. At this time I am field testing XW pro which will use the conext gateway and adds the first wifi monitoring to the power scene. Insight 2 will be out around february and it is read/ right into the conext gateway. I like the new user interface alot more and it has a fresh new look that works for me. The xwp has the cal rule 21 for grid and microgrid, better parameters in the power electronics that may add some flexibility in a higher power rating/surge than the current 6.8kw. Living large here now that we finally got to fill our 18 K gallons of tanks with rain! We were down to 3K and that is bare minimum for a wildfire. DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Mon Dec 3 14:34:23 2018 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Lones Tuss) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 19:34:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems In-Reply-To: <711ff3afc50dc143094d1bd26e71719d@mail.gmail.com> References: <711ff3afc50dc143094d1bd26e71719d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <78c439f421e048b5aea048c7240d5ae8@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Hello William Sorry for the issues and troubles. I have forwarded your concerns on to the responsible parties. I have requested additional bolts which once I receive them I will send them on to you. Take Care Sir From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2018 1:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ Wrenches: I am reaching out to this group to see if anyone is having the problems we are. At least 50% of the Radian inverters and/or GSLC cabinets we order arrive missing some part or piece required to install the inverter. Sometimes it is one or more of the bus bars to connect the main DC breaker to the inverter, sometimes it is one of the 8mm nuts required on these bus bars, and the most recent order, and on our most recent order, one of the inverters was missing the 8mm bolts and washers required to connect the bus bars to the inverter plus and minus ports. We have been having this problem for years. Has anyone else experienced this, or is it just me? Also, the shunts provided in the GSLC cabinets are crap. It used to be the shunts had a solid base. Now the bases are hollow. We use to see these shunt bases cracked almost 100% of the time in shipping because the long, cantilevered negative bus bar was entirely supported at one end by the shunt. Any modest bump on the GSLC cabinet broke the shunt. Now we receive them intact because Alpha has stopped installing the shunt prior to shipping. The problem persists, however, because if you put the slightest pressure on the negative bus bar to align the holes to install the bolts (if they arrive), minimal strain in the base of the shunt cracks it. See the photos below of the old versus new style shunt. Each of these problems slows down an install and creates frustration. This persistent pattern is really not acceptable. Lones, please investigate these problems and let us know if they can be rectified. And please, send me a set of the 8mm bolts. Thank you, William Miller [Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1803 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Dec 3 14:50:41 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 12:50:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Service Disconnects Off Grid? Message-ID: <8df2b8a9-1c5b-29aa-d699-3b980ba4e040@solarray.com> Greetings RE Wrenches; We've recently completed a family sized off grid system.  It was quite interesting to get all of our plans and references updated to include all the requirements moved from 690 to the new article 706: Energy Storage Systems (ESS), and article 710: Stand alone Systems.  The issue we have now encountered with the state electrical inspectors is that while our feed from the ESS to the house is allowed to be under sized, they are still requiring the house disconnect be sized according to 225, which requires a minimum of 100 amps for residential.  225.39(C). Our points: 1) What is the purpose of having a 100 amp Service disconnect, when the feeders from the inverter are #6s, and are already protected by a 60 amp output breaker. 2)  Article 706 twice references sizing according to 240: Overcurrent Protection. It doesn't specifically ever mention 225 or 230. 3)  Article 710 (Stand Alone) specifically permits the Power supply to have less capacity than the calculated load. Their point is that 710 applies only up to the building disconnect means, but doesn't actually include the building disconnect. They are saying the building disconnect still has to be sized according to 225.39(C) Has anyone dealt with this?  Was this the intention of NEC 2017, or is this another point that could use some rewording? Thanks, -- Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Dec 3 18:01:37 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2018 18:01:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 V Coil 50 A contacts Message-ID: <6a051cd47c0ebb8f35b69ab609ed91d97fe18e3b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Does anyone know where I might find a relay / contactor with a 48V DC coil and 50 A 120/240 Vac contacts. Among the many suppliers I've contacted are Grainger, Digi-Key, Mouser, the WWW, etc. The system I've ended up designing with what I have found is a kluge to just have a Morning Star Relay Driver disconnect the output of an inverter.. AC coupling 48 V inverters seems to always have the glitch of finding a relay. Catalogues will show these, but suppliers don't have them. Thank you, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Dec 3 18:13:50 2018 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 16:13:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 V Coil 50 A contacts In-Reply-To: <6a051cd47c0ebb8f35b69ab609ed91d97fe18e3b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> References: <6a051cd47c0ebb8f35b69ab609ed91d97fe18e3b@webmail.redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <3088E7AA-A19B-4870-8E7A-1A2BBE948614@sindelarsolar.com> Have you checked out MDI mercury contractors? Available with a variety of dc cool voltages and 50A. Allan > On Dec 3, 2018, at 4:01 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Does anyone know where I might find a relay / contactor with a 48V DC coil and 50 A 120/240 Vac contacts. Among the many suppliers I've contacted are Grainger, Digi-Key, Mouser, the WWW, etc. The system I've ended up designing with what I have found is a kluge to just have a Morning Star Relay Driver disconnect the output of an inverter.. AC coupling 48 V inverters seems to always have the glitch of finding a relay. > > Catalogues will show these, but suppliers don't have them. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Dec 4 05:20:28 2018 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel at entech-engineering.com) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2018 05:20:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems In-Reply-To: <78c439f421e048b5aea048c7240d5ae8@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> References: <711ff3afc50dc143094d1bd26e71719d@mail.gmail.com> <78c439f421e048b5aea048c7240d5ae8@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> Message-ID: <39ee5cc6ab1a9d037693a95fe39fe986@entech-engineering.com> I have only installed two so far on the small island I live on and had none of these problems. We have installed 4048's and I am wondering if these problems are with 8048s or 4048s? Thank you, Chris Warfel On 2018-12-03 14:34, Lones Tuss wrote: > Hello William > > Sorry for the issues and troubles. I have forwarded your concerns on to the responsible parties. I have requested additional bolts which once I receive them I will send them on to you. > > Take Care Sir > > FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF William Miller > SENT: Saturday, December 1, 2018 1:47 PM > TO: RE-wrenches > SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems > > ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - PLEASE REPORT ANY SUSPICIOUS ATTACHMENTS, LINKS, OR REQUESTS FOR SENSITIVE INFORMATION TO THE HELP DESK. ** > > ------------------------- > > Wrenches: > > I am reaching out to this group to see if anyone is having the problems we are. At least 50% of the Radian inverters and/or GSLC cabinets we order arrive missing some part or piece required to install the inverter. Sometimes it is one or more of the bus bars to connect the main DC breaker to the inverter, sometimes it is one of the 8mm nuts required on these bus bars, and the most recent order, and on our most recent order, one of the inverters was missing the 8mm bolts and washers required to connect the bus bars to the inverter plus and minus ports. > > We have been having this problem for years. Has anyone else experienced this, or is it just me? > > Also, the shunts provided in the GSLC cabinets are crap. It used to be the shunts had a solid base. Now the bases are hollow. We use to see these shunt bases cracked almost 100% of the time in shipping because the long, cantilevered negative bus bar was entirely supported at one end by the shunt. Any modest bump on the GSLC cabinet broke the shunt. Now we receive them intact because Alpha has stopped installing the shunt prior to shipping. The problem persists, however, because if you put the slightest pressure on the negative bus bar to align the holes to install the bolts (if they arrive), minimal strain in the base of the shunt cracks it. See the photos below of the old versus new style shunt. > > Each of these problems slows down an install and creates frustration. This persistent pattern is really not acceptable. > > Lones, please investigate these problems and let us know if they can be rectified. And please, send me a set of the 8mm bolts. > > Thank you, > > William Miller > > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com [1] > 805-438-5600 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [2] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [3] Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com/ [2] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [3] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1803 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 09:34:11 2018 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 06:34:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems In-Reply-To: <39ee5cc6ab1a9d037693a95fe39fe986@entech-engineering.com> References: <711ff3afc50dc143094d1bd26e71719d@mail.gmail.com> <78c439f421e048b5aea048c7240d5ae8@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <39ee5cc6ab1a9d037693a95fe39fe986@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: William, I wish I didn’t know what you are talking about. I too have encountered missing parts and have dealt with the crappy shunt. I switched to purchasing pre-wired power centers built by a company in Mount Shasta. They will accommodate my requests for small deviations from standard layout. I’m curious how many problems with inverters and boards folks see. 2016-17 saw me swapping out a lot of components. One Radian was 1/2 DOA, and another lost an inverter after a week. Michael > On Dec 4, 2018, at 2:20 AM, cwarfel at entech-engineering.com wrote: > > I have only installed two so far on the small island I live on and had none of these problems. We have installed 4048's and I am wondering if these problems are with 8048s or 4048s? Thank you, Chris Warfel. > > > > > On 2018-12-03 14:34, Lones Tuss wrote: > >> Hello William >> >> Sorry for the issues and troubles. I have forwarded your concerns on to the responsible parties. I have requested additional bolts which once I receive them I will send them on to you. >> >> Take Care Sir >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller >> Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2018 1:47 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems >> >> >> ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** >> >> Wrenches: >> >> I am reaching out to this group to see if anyone is having the problems we are. At least 50% of the Radian inverters and/or GSLC cabinets we order arrive missing some part or piece required to install the inverter. Sometimes it is one or more of the bus bars to connect the main DC breaker to the inverter, sometimes it is one of the 8mm nuts required on these bus bars, and the most recent order, and on our most recent order, one of the inverters was missing the 8mm bolts and washers required to connect the bus bars to the inverter plus and minus ports. >> >> We have been having this problem for years. Has anyone else experienced this, or is it just me? >> >> Also, the shunts provided in the GSLC cabinets are crap. It used to be the shunts had a solid base. Now the bases are hollow. We use to see these shunt bases cracked almost 100% of the time in shipping because the long, cantilevered negative bus bar was entirely supported at one end by the shunt. Any modest bump on the GSLC cabinet broke the shunt. Now we receive them intact because Alpha has stopped installing the shunt prior to shipping. The problem persists, however, because if you put the slightest pressure on the negative bus bar to align the holes to install the bolts (if they arrive), minimal strain in the base of the shunt cracks it. See the photos below of the old versus new style shunt. >> >> Each of these problems slows down an install and creates frustration. This persistent pattern is really not acceptable. >> >> Lones, please investigate these problems and let us know if they can be rectified. And please, send me a set of the 8mm bolts. >> >> Thank you, >> >> William Miller >> >> >> Lic 773985 >> millersolar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Dec 4 08:53:17 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2018 08:53:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 V Coil 50 A contacts Message-ID: <3h1ju8j89alt447o35ge98p9.1543931575162@email.lge.com> Gigavac makes all kinds on DC relays. Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.orgDate: Mon, Dec 3, 2018 6:01 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] 48 V Coil 50 A contacts Does anyone know where I might find a relay / contactor with a 48V DC coil and 50 A 120/240 Vac contacts. Among the many suppliers I've contacted are Grainger, Digi-Key, Mouser, the WWW, etc. The system I've ended up designing with what I have found is a kluge to just have a Morning Star Relay Driver disconnect the output of an inverter.. AC coupling 48 V inverters seems to always have the glitch of finding a relay. Catalogues will show these, but suppliers don't have them. Thank you, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 11:29:51 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2018 08:29:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems In-Reply-To: <39ee5cc6ab1a9d037693a95fe39fe986@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <5c06b523.1c69fb81.bf369.0ba9@mx.google.com> WrenchesI  have installed several in Hawaii in recent months and more in California, l have not had any issues with either out of the box or pre-wired. With the Shunts it may have been a batch but missing hardware is just that, missing. I will keep an eye out and we will see.Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Date: 12/4/18 2:20 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems I have only installed two so far on the small island I live on and had none of these problems.  We have installed 4048's and I am wondering if these problems are with 8048s or 4048s?  Thank you, Chris Warfel   On 2018-12-03 14:34, Lones Tuss wrote: Hello William Sorry for the issues and troubles. I have forwarded your concerns on to the responsible parties. I have requested additional bolts which once I receive them I will send them on to you. Take Care Sir   From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2018 1:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems   ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** Wrenches:   I am reaching out to this group to see if anyone is having the problems we are.  At least 50% of the Radian inverters and/or GSLC cabinets we order arrive missing some part or piece required to install the inverter.  Sometimes it is one or more of the bus bars to connect the main DC breaker to the inverter, sometimes it is one of the 8mm nuts required on these bus bars, and the most recent order, and on our most recent order, one of the inverters was missing the 8mm bolts and washers required to connect the bus bars to the inverter plus and minus ports.   We have been having this problem for years.  Has anyone else experienced this, or is it just me?   Also, the shunts provided in the GSLC cabinets are crap.  It used to be the shunts had a solid base.  Now the bases are hollow.  We use to see these shunt bases cracked almost 100% of the time in shipping because the long, cantilevered negative bus bar was entirely supported at one end by the shunt.  Any modest bump on the GSLC cabinet broke the shunt.  Now we receive them intact because Alpha has stopped installing the shunt prior to shipping.  The problem persists, however, because if you put the slightest pressure on the negative bus bar to align the holes to install the bolts (if they arrive), minimal strain in the base of the shunt cracks it.  See the photos below of the old versus new style shunt.   Each of these problems slows down an install and creates frustration.  This persistent pattern is really not acceptable.   Lones, please investigate these problems and let us know if they can be rectified.  And please, send me a set of the 8mm bolts.   Thank you,   William Miller   Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 11:56:49 2018 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 09:56:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA CORE1 62.5kW availability Message-ID: Does anyone know of an east coast distributor with the new CORE1 62-US inverters in stock? Our distributor is experiencing delays. *Regards, * *Andrew Truitt* www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Dec 4 14:50:45 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 11:50:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking In-Reply-To: References: <545F9F32-2DF9-4858-AA5E-45D6BA389246@gmail.com> <806731a4aeccc916a1a1ae8c56b44f97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3c89b240b1b49683d9037fb434c5cf0f@mail.gmail.com> Wrenches: A few wrenches have inquired about the Control-by-Web system I created to monitor Mates, routers and modems. Here is a page I created to outline the general concepts. I hope this answers all of the questions. I can share more details and possibly some Lua script on a case-by-case basis if you contact me off-line. William PS: The heart of the system is a dedicated 24 volt battery array left over from a generator sync system. The, CBW, router and modem all float on this battery bank. The draw is minimal and the cost of an outboard battery array or one powered by a converter is justified by the increased reliability inherent with a battery powered system. Wm [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* Mac Lewis [mailto:maclewis1 at gmail.com] *Sent:* Friday, November 30, 2018 10:21 AM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Hi William, I am interested in your control by web solution for the mate lock up. Is that a specific controller that does that or have you modified something? Could it be used to reboot routers/modems as well? Thanks On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 7:44 PM William Miller wrote: Jay: I have problems with all of my Mate3 and 3s controllers locking up. So much so that I have implemented the following steps: 1. For most installations I leave the hub wire cover off and label the Mate lead. Clients are instructed to unplug and re-plug the Cat5 lead whenever the Mate locks up. 2. On one installation I have a Control By Web unit ping both Mate3 units every 5 minutes. If either fails to respond after 3 attempts, a relay opens and closes the Orange/white leads which power cycles the Mates. Locking up of Mates is a fact of life with Outback equipment. I love the equipment and I hate the equipment. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Lones Tuss *Sent:* Friday, November 16, 2018 12:42 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking Hello All And Hello Jay I just asked the tech support boss on this as I had no idea. He has a test setup that allows him to switch individuals lines on the cat5 cables. We can duplicate Jay’s screen shot below by opening the some of the lines to the cat 5 cable. So as a start try replacing the cat5 between the Mate3S and the Hub. Using the silicone grease that comes with a Mate is never a bad idea. If your customer does not have a cable on hand I would try removing the cable several times perhaps that could help to dislodge any corrosion or dust on the connections. I hope this helps. Take Care All -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Friday, November 16, 2018 8:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] mate 3s locking ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** ________________________________ HI All, I’m wondering if anyone else is having mate 3s locking up problems? I’ve got 2 systems that have had this happen. One is a big system ( 2 radians and 5 CC). Of course its a long ways away and no there isn’t internet so no OpticsRE. Its been reprogramed with latest REV firmware. No change. thx jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1803 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Dec 4 14:39:55 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 11:39:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems In-Reply-To: <39ee5cc6ab1a9d037693a95fe39fe986@entech-engineering.com> References: <711ff3afc50dc143094d1bd26e71719d@mail.gmail.com> <78c439f421e048b5aea048c7240d5ae8@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <39ee5cc6ab1a9d037693a95fe39fe986@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <9cb89f0baf74102faea72d9023fc1dc6@mail.gmail.com> Chris: We mostly install 8048 inverters. Regardless, you need all of the hardware for installing a 4048 or an 8048 and any GSLC. Not having them is a huge headache and cost. I can’t believe Outback is still letting this happen. I would familiarize myself with what is needed and inventory as soon as the equipment is received. Here is a partial list, from memory, and partial photo attached. I can’t guarantee this list is complete, but it is a start. 1. 2 or 4 8 MM bolts and washers for Pos and Neg ports. 2. Remove and check shunt for cracks. 3. All Neg bus bar parts. Includes two or three bars, 8mm nuts and washers (photo below). 4. All Pos bus bar parts. Includes two or three bars, 8mm nuts and washers (photo below). 5. Flat plate with 10 holes for ganging inverter breakers (photo below). 6. Screws to mount breakers and FNDC to panels. 7. Dead-front screws. 8. Cover screws. Some of the above parts ship with the inverters, some with the GSLCs. When you are aligning negative busses to bolt them to bottom of inverter, be very careful if you need to move the bars to align with holes. It is real easy to fracture the sub-standard shunt bases. See attached photo comparing the kind of shunt you want versus what Outback ships. I am looking for a source for the sold-base units. Anyone know for sure where to find the good ones? I hope this information and level of detail will help some of you save the headaches and frustration I have suffered. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *cwarfel at entech-engineering.com *Sent:* Tuesday, December 04, 2018 2:20 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems I have only installed two so far on the small island I live on and had none of these problems. We have installed 4048's and I am wondering if these problems are with 8048s or 4048s? Thank you, Chris Warfel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27018 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19302 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1803 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Tue Dec 4 17:13:14 2018 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 22:13:14 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems In-Reply-To: <9cb89f0baf74102faea72d9023fc1dc6@mail.gmail.com> References: <711ff3afc50dc143094d1bd26e71719d@mail.gmail.com> <78c439f421e048b5aea048c7240d5ae8@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <39ee5cc6ab1a9d037693a95fe39fe986@entech-engineering.com>, <9cb89f0baf74102faea72d9023fc1dc6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have installed a whole lot of GSLCs and Radians. That is the primary product I've installed over the last 5 years. I have always purchased the Radian with the GSLC175-PV-120/240 which comes pre-wired with three shunts etc. I have never had any problems with missing or broken/cracked parts but I have seen the wiring come loose in shipping. I saw one shunt that melted due to an under-torqued bolt. I had a Flex-Net that was pre-wired wrong. That issue cost me an extra trip to the remote site at over 8 hours of drive time alone because the initial misdiagnosis was a faulty Flex-Net. That one took me a long time to diagnose because I was operating under the assumption that the factory wouldn't have wired it wrong. Of course, tech support never guessed that was the issue either. This was the one time that I felt like the manufacturer should have definitely compensated me for some of my costs... but I didn't figure that they'd go for that idea so I didn't ask. I have had a lot of warranty issues with the earlier Radians and the old Mate 3, but so far I've had really good luck recent Radians for off-grid use and with the new Mate 3s. The strangest issue I've had (and still have) with a Radian is that at one site, every once in a while, the grid-tied radian gets stuck in export mode and it'll drain the battery to somewhere around 85% or lower, sometimes exporting until 1 A.M. It is very infrequent and impossible to predict so that issue has never been solved. Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786) (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 12:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems Chris: We mostly install 8048 inverters. Regardless, you need all of the hardware for installing a 4048 or an 8048 and any GSLC. Not having them is a huge headache and cost. I can’t believe Outback is still letting this happen. I would familiarize myself with what is needed and inventory as soon as the equipment is received. Here is a partial list, from memory, and partial photo attached. I can’t guarantee this list is complete, but it is a start. 1. 2 or 4 8 MM bolts and washers for Pos and Neg ports. 2. Remove and check shunt for cracks. 3. All Neg bus bar parts. Includes two or three bars, 8mm nuts and washers (photo below). 4. All Pos bus bar parts. Includes two or three bars, 8mm nuts and washers (photo below). 5. Flat plate with 10 holes for ganging inverter breakers (photo below). 6. Screws to mount breakers and FNDC to panels. 7. Dead-front screws. 8. Cover screws. [cid:image004.jpg at 01D48BC6.14159050] Some of the above parts ship with the inverters, some with the GSLCs. When you are aligning negative busses to bolt them to bottom of inverter, be very careful if you need to move the bars to align with holes. It is real easy to fracture the sub-standard shunt bases. See attached photo comparing the kind of shunt you want versus what Outback ships. I am looking for a source for the sold-base units. Anyone know for sure where to find the good ones? [cid:image006.jpg at 01D48BC6.14159050] I hope this information and level of detail will help some of you save the headaches and frustration I have suffered. William [Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2018 2:20 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems I have only installed two so far on the small island I live on and had none of these problems. We have installed 4048's and I am wondering if these problems are with 8048s or 4048s? Thank you, Chris Warfel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1803 bytes Desc: image007.jpg URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Tue Dec 4 17:13:34 2018 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 16:13:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems In-Reply-To: <9cb89f0baf74102faea72d9023fc1dc6@mail.gmail.com> References: <711ff3afc50dc143094d1bd26e71719d@mail.gmail.com> <78c439f421e048b5aea048c7240d5ae8@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <39ee5cc6ab1a9d037693a95fe39fe986@entech-engineering.com> <9cb89f0baf74102faea72d9023fc1dc6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <420e14ca-38ad-6894-4876-8ab6b945108f@aprsworld.com> Deltec makes the good shunts. http://deltecco.com/ That series of shunt is pretty cheap in small quantities. Less than $30. Empro is another US shunt manufacturer: http://www.emproshunts.com/home.aspx On 12/4/2018 1:39 PM, William Miller wrote: > When you are aligning negative busses to bolt them to bottom of > inverter, be very careful if you need to move the bars to align with > holes.  It is real easy to fracture the sub-standard shunt bases.  See > attached photo comparing the kind of shunt you want versus what Outback > ships.  I am looking for a source for the sold-base units. Anyone know > for sure where to find the good ones? -- -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com From frenergy at psln.com Wed Dec 5 00:49:15 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 21:49:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems In-Reply-To: <420e14ca-38ad-6894-4876-8ab6b945108f@aprsworld.com> References: <711ff3afc50dc143094d1bd26e71719d@mail.gmail.com> <78c439f421e048b5aea048c7240d5ae8@BLIMail2.alpha-bli.com> <39ee5cc6ab1a9d037693a95fe39fe986@entech-engineering.com> <9cb89f0baf74102faea72d9023fc1dc6@mail.gmail.com> <420e14ca-38ad-6894-4876-8ab6b945108f@aprsworld.com> Message-ID: When I've purchased shunts from AEE, they've been the "good " ones, solid base, they look like Deltecs. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 12/4/2018 2:13 PM, James Jefferson Jarvis wrote: > Deltec makes the good shunts. > http://deltecco.com/ > > That series of shunt is pretty cheap in small quantities. Less than $30. > > Empro is another US shunt manufacturer: > http://www.emproshunts.com/home.aspx > > > > On 12/4/2018 1:39 PM, William Miller wrote: >> When you are aligning negative busses to bolt them to bottom of >> inverter, be very careful if you need to move the bars to align with >> holes.  It is real easy to fracture the sub-standard shunt bases.  >> See attached photo comparing the kind of shunt you want versus what >> Outback ships.  I am looking for a source for the sold-base units. >> Anyone know for sure where to find the good ones? > -- --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From Lyons at ZapotecEnergy.com Fri Dec 7 13:15:52 2018 From: Lyons at ZapotecEnergy.com (Paul Lyons) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:15:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen Solar 120-Watt Panels to Donate Message-ID: <017601d48e58$e3b456e0$ab1d04a0$@ZapotecEnergy.com> Hello RE-Wrenches - You will show your age if you reply to this post. This week we removed 12-year Evergreen Solar EC-120 Watt modules from a customer's roof. They are reroofing and upgrading to a higher-performance system. In the spirit of the holidays and sound environmental ethics, the homeowner would like to donate the them for reuse. We tested all 26 individual modules, and they still kick out 20 VDC open circuit. Please contact me off-list if you are interested. We ask that you pay for shipping costs. Paul Lyons xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Paul Lyons, P.E. Zapotec Energy Inc. 675 Massachusetts Ave Cambridge, MA 02139-3309 Tel: 617-547-5900 ext.201 Fax: 617-547-5901 Email: Lyons at ZapotecEnergy.com Web: www.ZapotecEnergy.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 18:33:36 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 17:33:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] some reached out to me on panel board question Message-ID: I accidentally deleted when I was responding, please try again -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 18:42:10 2018 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 17:42:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Some one reached out to me off list, I accidently deleated Message-ID: regarding a 480 Volt install using a Square D 3-phase panel board. sorry I deleted it. please try again. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 22:17:18 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 22:17:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Some one reached out to me off list, I accidently deleated In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9AF19DF6-AD7F-4AA4-A964-FFAAC0A0A73F@gmail.com> Daryl It must be catching. I just accidentally deleted the one who has 20 EC-120’s to repurpose. Could that person in MA resend. I am interested. John.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 7, 2018, at 6:42 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > > regarding a 480 Volt install using a Square D 3-phase panel board. > sorry I deleted it. please try again. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Sat Dec 8 18:27:15 2018 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 15:27:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers Message-ID: <0Lop25-1h87ck1Nsp-00grNh@mrelay.perfora.net> We are working with Turning Point Foundation a 501(c)3 to provide off-grid power for their River Haven project which is providing transitional housing for homeless folks in the Ventura CA area. The site is truly off-grid and currently uses propane to power three refrigerators and cook stoves. There is no space heating for the single occupancy rooms as of yet. But that’s another problem. We are looking to specify DC refrigerators and PV-powered battery storage for the River Haven project. We are looking at the Goal Zero Yeti-3000 system (3000 Whr, 500 full discharge cycles, to 80% residual capacity) at a sale price of $2,400 but are finding the extra cost of their PV modules quite steep. And looking at other 36-cell (12 volt) modules, I can’t find anything for less than $1.10/W. Since Goal Zero is looking at the recreational market, I thought that there might be other companies with comparable product offerings that are focusing on other markets like developing countries. Any advice would be appreciated and you may contact us off-line. Peter T. Parrish SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com Sun Dec 9 08:11:39 2018 From: PureEnergySolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 13:11:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers In-Reply-To: <0Lop25-1h87ck1Nsp-00grNh@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0Lop25-1h87ck1Nsp-00grNh@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: Try solarchargingstation.com ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Peter Parrish Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2018 6:27:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers We are working with Turning Point Foundation a 501(c)3 to provide off-grid power for their River Haven project which is providing transitional housing for homeless folks in the Ventura CA area. The site is truly off-grid and currently uses propane to power three refrigerators and cook stoves. There is no space heating for the single occupancy rooms as of yet. But that’s another problem. We are looking to specify DC refrigerators and PV-powered battery storage for the River Haven project. We are looking at the Goal Zero Yeti-3000 system (3000 Whr, 500 full discharge cycles, to 80% residual capacity) at a sale price of $2,400 but are finding the extra cost of their PV modules quite steep. And looking at other 36-cell (12 volt) modules, I can’t find anything for less than $1.10/W. Since Goal Zero is looking at the recreational market, I thought that there might be other companies with comparable product offerings that are focusing on other markets like developing countries. Any advice would be appreciated and you may contact us off-line. Peter T. Parrish SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Dec 9 08:21:24 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (glenn.burt at glbcc.com) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2018 08:21:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers Message-ID: I recently saw a YouTube video that compared 4 or 5 portable power units. You might try a search there. Glenn Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------From: Peter ParrishDate: Sun, Dec 9, 2018 1:17 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers We are working with Turning Point Foundation a 501(c)3 to provide off-grid power for their River Haven project which is providing transitional housing for homeless folks in the Ventura CA area. The site is truly off-grid and currently uses propane to power three refrigerators and cook stoves. There is no space heating for the single occupancy rooms as of yet. But that’s another problem. We are looking to specify DC refrigerators and PV-powered battery storage for the River Haven project. We are looking at the Goal Zero Yeti-3000 system (3000 Whr, 500 full discharge cycles, to 80% residual capacity) at a sale price of $2,400 but are finding the extra cost of their PV modules quite steep. And looking at other 36-cell (12 volt) modules, I can’t find anything for less than $1.10/W.  Since Goal Zero is looking at the recreational market, I thought that there might be other companies with comparable product offerings that are focusing on other markets like developing countries. Any advice would be appreciated and you may contact us off-line. Peter T. Parrish SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 12:10:25 2018 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 10:10:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Every one of these I've seen so far....dating back over 10 years....drastically undersizes the battery bank, I assume because that's the expensive part. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP PV Associate 970.672.4342 On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 9:21 AM glenn.burt at glbcc.com wrote: > I recently saw a YouTube video that compared 4 or 5 portable power units. > You might try a search there. > > Glenn > > Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Peter Parrish > *Date: *Sun, Dec 9, 2018 1:17 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers > > We are working with Turning Point Foundation a 501(c)3 to provide off-grid > power for their River Haven project which is providing transitional housing > for homeless folks in the Ventura CA area. > > > > The site is truly off-grid and currently uses propane to power three > refrigerators and cook stoves. There is no space heating for the single > occupancy rooms as of yet. But that’s another problem. > > > > We are looking to specify DC refrigerators and PV-powered battery storage > for the River Haven project. We are looking at the Goal Zero Yeti-3000 > system (3000 Whr, 500 full discharge cycles, to 80% residual capacity) at a > sale price of $2,400 but are finding the extra cost of their PV modules > quite steep. And looking at other 36-cell (12 volt) modules, I can’t find > anything for less than $1.10/W. > > > > Since Goal Zero is looking at the recreational market, I thought that > there might be o ther companies with comparable product offerings that are > focusing on other markets like developing countries. > > > > Any advice would be appreciated and you may contact us off-line. > > > > Peter T. Parrish > SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > peter.parrish at solargnosis.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Dec 9 13:44:19 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 11:44:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers In-Reply-To: <0Lop25-1h87ck1Nsp-00grNh@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0Lop25-1h87ck1Nsp-00grNh@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <1b9ab530-c12c-2744-d6a7-d94c010300b3@solarray.com> I would not go DC for starters.  I lived with a DC fridge for years and would not wish that on anyone in the 21st century. Regular Energy Star rated models are very close to the Sunfrost energy numbers, but are much cheaper, are readily available, and can be serviced by regular appliance repair folks. On the module type/ price, we switch to much lower cost 60 cell modules at around 300 watts these days, and use an MPPT controller.  We're only using 12 v modules for very, very small systems. As far as small power packages, we've always built are own. Goal Zero is more portable/ backpacking stuff;  I have a fold up 5 w Module from Goal zero that can charge a cell phone while camping. They're great for stuff like that, but they're going to be way out of the budget for a permanent mounted larger system. Contact us offline, if you want, we could possibly help put together a low cost package system for this application.  Not many solar companies want to mess with sub Kw systems these days, but there certainly is a need, as you've found. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/8/18 4:27 PM, Peter Parrish wrote: > > We are working with Turning Point Foundation a 501(c)3 to provide > off-grid power for their River Haven project which is providing > transitional housing for homeless folks in the Ventura CA area. > > The site is truly off-grid and currently uses propane to power three > refrigerators and cook stoves. There is no space heating for the > single occupancy rooms as of yet. But that’s another problem. > > We are looking to specify DC refrigerators and PV-powered battery > storage for the River Haven project. We are looking at the Goal Zero > Yeti-3000 system (3000 Whr, 500 full discharge cycles, to 80% residual > capacity) at a sale price of $2,400 but are finding the extra cost of > their PV modules quite steep. And looking at other 36-cell (12 volt) > modules, I can’t find anything for less than $1.10/W. > > Since Goal Zero is looking at the recreational market, I thought that > there might be other companies with comparable product offerings that > are focusing on other markets like developing countries. > > Any advice would be appreciated and you may contact us off-line. > > Peter T. Parrish > SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > peter.parrish at solargnosis.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atruitt at gmail.com Sun Dec 9 13:31:22 2018 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 11:31:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Peter - I would contact Faisal at GetChargedUp, they've been doing great things with mobile power for PR , and their based in CA, and they know what they're doing. Scott Sklar at The Stella Group has built some very robust mobile solutions for the US military. A few other options: http://www.mobilesolarpower.net/ https://www.amerescosolar.com/solar-power-mobile-solutions https://www.bigdogsolar.com/custom-mobile-solar-trailers/ *Regards, * *Andrew Truitt* www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 10:10 AM Dan Fink wrote: > Every one of these I've seen so far....dating back over 10 > years....drastically undersizes the battery bank, I assume because that's > the expensive part. > > Dan Fink > Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute > IREC Certified Instructor™ for: > ~ PV Installation Professional > ~ Small Wind Installer > Executive Director, Buckville Energy > NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ > NABCEP PV Associate > > 970.672.4342 > > > > > On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 9:21 AM glenn.burt at glbcc.com > wrote: > >> I recently saw a YouTube video that compared 4 or 5 portable power units. >> You might try a search there. >> >> Glenn >> >> Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> *From: *Peter Parrish >> *Date: *Sun, Dec 9, 2018 1:17 AM >> *To: *RE-wrenches; >> *Cc: * >> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers >> >> We are working with Turning Point Foundation a 501(c)3 to provide >> off-grid power for their River Haven project which is providing >> transitional housing for homeless folks in the Ventura CA area. >> >> >> >> The site is truly off-grid and currently uses propane to power three >> refrigerators and cook stoves. There is no space heating for the single >> occupancy rooms as of yet. But that’s another problem. >> >> >> >> We are looking to specify DC refrigerators and PV-powered battery storage >> for the River Haven project. We are looking at the Goal Zero Yeti-3000 >> system (3000 Whr, 500 full discharge cycles, to 80% residual capacity) at a >> sale price of $2,400 but are finding the extra cost of their PV modules >> quite steep. And looking at other 36-cell (12 volt) modules, I can’t find >> anything for less than $1.10/W. >> >> >> >> Since Goal Zero is looking at the recreational market, I thought that >> there might be o ther companies with comparable product offerings that are >> focusing on other markets like developing countries. >> >> >> >> Any advice would be appreciated and you may contact us off-line. >> >> >> >> Peter T. Parrish >> SolarGnosis >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> (323) 839-6108 >> peter.parrish at solargnosis.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Sun Dec 9 14:21:45 2018 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 19:21:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Also try sunwize.com been doing off grid systems for a long time Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Andrew Truitt Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2018 2:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers Peter - I would contact Faisal at GetChargedUp, they've been doing great things with mobile power for PR, and their based in CA, and they know what they're doing. Scott Sklar at The Stella Group has built some very robust mobile solutions for the US military. A few other options: http://www.mobilesolarpower.net/ https://www.amerescosolar.com/solar-power-mobile-solutions https://www.bigdogsolar.com/custom-mobile-solar-trailers/ Regards, Andrew Truitt www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 10:10 AM Dan Fink > wrote: Every one of these I've seen so far....dating back over 10 years....drastically undersizes the battery bank, I assume because that's the expensive part. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP PV Associate 970.672.4342 On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 9:21 AM glenn.burt at glbcc.com > wrote: I recently saw a YouTube video that compared 4 or 5 portable power units. You might try a search there. Glenn Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------ From: Peter Parrish Date: Sun, Dec 9, 2018 1:17 AM To: RE-wrenches; Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers We are working with Turning Point Foundation a 501(c)3 to provide off-grid power for their River Haven project which is providing transitional housing for homeless folks in the Ventura CA area. The site is truly off-grid and currently uses propane to power three refrigerators and cook stoves. There is no space heating for the single occupancy rooms as of yet. But that’s another problem. We are looking to specify DC refrigerators and PV-powered battery storage for the River Haven project. We are looking at the Goal Zero Yeti-3000 system (3000 Whr, 500 full discharge cycles, to 80% residual capacity) at a sale price of $2,400 but are finding the extra cost of their PV modules quite steep. And looking at other 36-cell (12 volt) modules, I can’t find anything for less than $1.10/W. Since Goal Zero is looking at the recreational market, I thought that there might be o ther companies with comparable product offerings that are focusing on other markets like developing countries. Any advice would be appreciated and you may contact us off-line. Peter T. Parrish SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 9 23:50:15 2018 From: wmdorsett at sbcglobal.net (William Dorsett) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 22:50:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers In-Reply-To: <0Lop25-1h87ck1Nsp-00grNh@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0Lop25-1h87ck1Nsp-00grNh@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <001e01d49043$dec380b0$9c4a8210$@sbcglobal.net> Especially for this group of people, who are used to making do with resources as they come, there was a very interesting concept article in HomePower, Issue #186, July / August 2018, called DayLight Drive by Alexis Zeigler • Living Energy Farm, Louisa, Virginia. https://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/equipment-products/mailbox-daylight-drive The concept is in minimizing the expense of battery storage by using sun… well “DayLight” as it happens. I think the concept is particularly relevant to situations like you are describing and in developing countries. But also more to us as we look to the role of storage in general. Thanks for the thoughts, Alexis. Bill Dorsett Flint Hills Renewable Energy & Efficiency Cooperative, Inc. “Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can” Arthur Ashe 1715 Leavenworth Manhattan, KS 66502 www.fhreec.org 785/539-1956 Office 785/564-2583 Cell wmdorsett at cox.net From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Peter Parrish Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2018 5:27 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers We are working with Turning Point Foundation a 501(c)3 to provide off-grid power for their River Haven project which is providing transitional housing for homeless folks in the Ventura CA area. The site is truly off-grid and currently uses propane to power three refrigerators and cook stoves. There is no space heating for the single occupancy rooms as of yet. But that’s another problem. We are looking to specify DC refrigerators and PV-powered battery storage for the River Haven project. We are looking at the Goal Zero Yeti-3000 system (3000 Whr, 500 full discharge cycles, to 80% residual capacity) at a sale price of $2,400 but are finding the extra cost of their PV modules quite steep. And looking at other 36-cell (12 volt) modules, I can’t find anything for less than $1.10/W. Since Goal Zero is looking at the recreational market, I thought that there might be other companies with comparable product offerings that are focusing on other markets like developing countries. Any advice would be appreciated and you may contact us off-line. Peter T. Parrish SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Mon Dec 10 10:49:13 2018 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 07:49:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers In-Reply-To: <001e01d49043$dec380b0$9c4a8210$@sbcglobal.net> References: <0Lop25-1h87ck1Nsp-00grNh@mrelay.perfora.net> <001e01d49043$dec380b0$9c4a8210$@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <0Lu6Fc-1hUIPd0oju-011Qda@mrelay.perfora.net> Thanks Bill, and everyone else: When I was a CA solar contractor, I designed and oversaw the installation of over 20 “grid-tied battery back up systems”. I now have an approved application into the Southern California Edison SGIP program, spec’ing a 16 kWh and 8 kW “smart” e-storage system. The system will use Li-ion batteries (the exact manu and chemistry escapes me right now). I don’t quite understand the relative lack of traction regarding Li for small scale remote/recreational applications. I understand a little about BMS, enough to be dangerous. So perhaps the biggest question I have is why NOT design-in a Li battery system as long as it come wrapped with a BSM? Any brands/technologies recommended? Also thanks for the info on 36 cell vs. 60 cell PV modules. If I were to specify a system from scratch (and that is the direction I’m heading), I would go with 60 cell modules (even 72 cell modules) and a MPPT CC that can handle the voltage and current range. And thanks for the recommendation on AC vs DC powered refrigerators. I don’t want to handle the service call! Thanks to everyone for their input. - Peter Peter T. Parrish SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com From: William Dorsett Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2018 10:56 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers Especially for this group of people, who are used to making do with resources as they come, there was a very interesting concept article in HomePower, Issue #186, July / August 2018, called DayLight Drive by Alexis Zeigler • Living Energy Farm, Louisa, Virginia. https://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/equipment-products/mailbox-daylight-drive The concept is in minimizing the expense of battery storage by using sun… well “DayLight” as it happens. I think the concept is particularly relevant to situations like you are describing and in developing countries. But also more to us as we look to the role of storage in general. Thanks for the thoughts, Alexis. Bill Dorsett Flint Hills Renewable Energy & Efficiency Cooperative, Inc. “Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can” Arthur Ashe 1715 Leavenworth Manhattan, KS 66502 www.fhreec.org 785/539-1956 Office 785/564-2583 Cell wmdorsett at cox.net From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Peter Parrish Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2018 5:27 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers We are working with Turning Point Foundation a 501(c)3 to provide off-grid power for their River Haven project which is providing transitional housing for homeless folks in the Ventura CA area. The site is truly off-grid and currently uses propane to power three refrigerators and cook stoves. There is no space heating for the single occupancy rooms as of yet. But that’s another problem. We are looking to specify DC refrigerators and PV-powered battery storage for the River Haven project. We are looking at the Goal Zero Yeti-3000 system (3000 Whr, 500 full discharge cycles, to 80% residual capacity) at a sale price of $2,400 but are finding the extra cost of their PV modules quite steep. And looking at other 36-cell (12 volt) modules, I can’t find anything for less than $1.10/W. Since Goal Zero is looking at the recreational market, I thought that there might be other companies with comparable product offerings that are focusing on other markets like developing countries. Any advice would be appreciated and you may contact us off-line. Peter T. Parrish SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Mon Dec 10 10:35:00 2018 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (Peter Parrish) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 07:35:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0LrtWq-1hS5pj2jkc-013dhJ@mrelay.perfora.net> They are expensive. But from a technical point of view, very few people understand (or know how to use) the concept of “Days of Autonomy”. I personally use a 3X factor but if I want to be extra conservative and the application is is critical I use a 4X factor. - Peter Peter T. Parrish SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com From: Dan Fink Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2018 9:10 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers Every one of these I've seen so far....dating back over 10 years....drastically undersizes the battery bank, I assume because that's the expensive part. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for:  ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP PV Associate 970.672.4342   On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 9:21 AM glenn.burt at glbcc.com wrote: I recently saw a YouTube video that compared 4 or 5 portable power units. You might try a search there. Glenn Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos. ------ Original message------ From: Peter Parrish Date: Sun, Dec 9, 2018 1:17 AM To: RE-wrenches; Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers We are working with Turning Point Foundation a 501(c)3 to provide off-grid power for their River Haven project which is providing transitional housing for homeless folks in the Ventura CA area.   The site is truly off-grid and currently uses propane to power three refrigerators and cook stoves. There is no space heating for the single occupancy rooms as of yet. But that’s another problem.   We are looking to specify DC refrigerators and PV-powered battery storage for the River Haven project. We are looking at the Goal Zero Yeti-3000 system (3000 Whr, 500 full discharge cycles, to 80% residual capacity) at a sale price of $2,400 but are finding the extra cost of their PV modules quite steep. And looking at other 36-cell (12 volt) modules, I can’t find anything for less than $1.10/W.   Since Goal Zero is looking at the recreational market, I thought that there might be o ther companies with comparable product offerings that are focusing on other markets like developing countries.   Any advice would be appreciated and you may contact us off-line.   Peter T. Parrish SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Dec 10 15:09:50 2018 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 15:09:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ6PLUS Message-ID: If you are aware of any suppliers with these in stock, please let me know privately. I need 27 of them. Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Dec 10 15:15:16 2018 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 12:15:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microhydro and L-ion In-Reply-To: <0Lu6Fc-1hUIPd0oju-011Qda@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0Lop25-1h87ck1Nsp-00grNh@mrelay.perfora.net> <001e01d49043$dec380b0$9c4a8210$@sbcglobal.net> <0Lu6Fc-1hUIPd0oju-011Qda@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <2b15d09c-19b3-7ae7-8a88-d45177a7a938@psln.com> How or can a  Harris DC microhydro (<.6 KW) work with existing PV charged Outback FP2 (or Radian for that matter), whilst charging a ~16KW L-ion "24" volt battery ?  I think that's a real word.  The output of the hydro varies over time from .6KW to .1KW Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ray at solarray.com Mon Dec 10 15:33:19 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:33:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microhydro and L-ion In-Reply-To: <2b15d09c-19b3-7ae7-8a88-d45177a7a938@psln.com> References: <0Lop25-1h87ck1Nsp-00grNh@mrelay.perfora.net> <001e01d49043$dec380b0$9c4a8210$@sbcglobal.net> <0Lu6Fc-1hUIPd0oju-011Qda@mrelay.perfora.net> <2b15d09c-19b3-7ae7-8a88-d45177a7a938@psln.com> Message-ID: <65a7d53b-06f5-5663-619e-988ba0d93229@solarray.com> I would think the standard diversion controller setup would work, but not sure.  I've been hoping that the Li+ manufacturers would add a relay control to their BMS.  Basically when the battery thinks its charged it just turns on the dump load.  I don't think the Li+ folks are near that far along yet. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/10/18 1:15 PM, frenergy wrote: > How or can a  Harris DC microhydro (<.6 KW) work with existing PV > charged Outback FP2 (or Radian for that matter), whilst charging a > ~16KW L-ion "24" volt battery ?  I think that's a real word.  The > output of the hydro varies over time from .6KW to .1KW > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 16:47:48 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 13:47:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microhydro and L-ion In-Reply-To: <65a7d53b-06f5-5663-619e-988ba0d93229@solarray.com> References: <0Lop25-1h87ck1Nsp-00grNh@mrelay.perfora.net> <001e01d49043$dec380b0$9c4a8210$@sbcglobal.net> <0Lu6Fc-1hUIPd0oju-011Qda@mrelay.perfora.net> <2b15d09c-19b3-7ae7-8a88-d45177a7a938@psln.com> <65a7d53b-06f5-5663-619e-988ba0d93229@solarray.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Blue ion and there BMU can control a relay as a dump or anything else, their BMU is far ahead of most. You will need to contact Blue Ion to get this set up but once its configured your in great shape. In the Outback program you can use the voltage preset as a dump but because of the very flat line between 20% and 80% it does take a little more to get set but because of their BMU the batteries are protected against over voltage. To set the "sell" I have found much the same in setting up in the Outback programming using voltage it just takes some time. It would be nice to let the BMU tell the inverters when to sell, maybe someday. Jerry On Mon, Dec 10, 2018, 12:33 PM Ray I would think the standard diversion controller setup would work, but > not sure. I've been hoping that the Li+ manufacturers would add a relay > control to their BMS. Basically when the battery thinks its charged it > just turns on the dump load. I don't think the Li+ folks are near that > far along yet. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 12/10/18 1:15 PM, frenergy wrote: > > How or can a Harris DC microhydro (<.6 KW) work with existing PV > > charged Outback FP2 (or Radian for that matter), whilst charging a > > ~16KW L-ion "24" volt battery ? I think that's a real word. The > > output of the hydro varies over time from .6KW to .1KW > > > > Bill > > > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, Owner > > 4291 Nelson St. > > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > > 530.284.7849 > > CA Lic 874049 > > www.frenergy.net > > > > > > --- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 19:08:19 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 16:08:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers In-Reply-To: <0Lu6Fc-1hUIPd0oju-011Qda@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <5c0efff7.1c69fb81.d1123.5844@mx.google.com> Peter/WrenchesLook at the Nlue Planet Blue Ion  batteries with the BMU, Thdy have a great Product designJerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Peter Parrish Date: 12/10/18 7:49 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers Thanks Bill, and everyone else: When I was a CA solar contractor, I designed and oversaw the installation of over 20 “grid-tied battery back up systems”. I now have an approved application into the Southern California Edison SGIP program, spec’ing a 16 kWh and 8 kW “smart” e-storage system. The system will use Li-ion batteries (the exact manu and chemistry escapes me right now). I don’t quite understand the relative lack of traction regarding Li for small scale remote/recreational applications. I understand a little about BMS, enough to be dangerous. So perhaps the biggest question I have is why NOT design-in a Li battery system as long as it come wrapped with a BSM? Any brands/technologies recommended? Also thanks for the info on 36 cell vs. 60 cell PV modules. If I were to specify a system from scratch (and that is the direction I’m heading), I would go with 60 cell modules (even 72 cell modules) and a MPPT CC that can handle the voltage and current range. And thanks for the recommendation on AC vs DC powered refrigerators. I don’t want to handle the service call! Thanks to everyone for their input. Peter Peter T. Parrish SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com From: William Dorsett Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2018 10:56 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers Especially for this group of people, who are used to making do with resources as they come, there was a very interesting concept article in HomePower, Issue #186, July / August 2018, called DayLight Drive by Alexis Zeigler • Living Energy Farm, Louisa, Virginia.  https://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/equipment-products/mailbox-daylight-drive The concept is in minimizing the expense of battery storage by using sun… well “DayLight” as it happens. I think the concept is particularly relevant to situations like you are describing and in developing countries. But also more to us as we look to the role of storage in general. Thanks for the thoughts, Alexis.  Bill DorsettFlint Hills Renewable Energy & Efficiency Cooperative, Inc.    “Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can” Arthur Ashe1715 LeavenworthManhattan, KS  66502www.fhreec.org 785/539-1956  Office 785/564-2583  Cellwmdorsett at cox.net     From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Peter Parrish Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2018 5:27 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Portable Power Centers We are working with Turning Point Foundation a 501(c)3 to provide off-grid power for their River Haven project which is providing transitional housing for homeless folks in the Ventura CA area. The site is truly off-grid and currently uses propane to power three refrigerators and cook stoves. There is no space heating for the single occupancy rooms as of yet. But that’s another problem. We are looking to specify DC refrigerators and PV-powered battery storage for the River Haven project. We are looking at the Goal Zero Yeti-3000 system (3000 Whr, 500 full discharge cycles, to 80% residual capacity) at a sale price of $2,400 but are finding the extra cost of their PV modules quite steep. And looking at other 36-cell (12 volt) modules, I can’t find anything for less than $1.10/W.  Since Goal Zero is looking at the recreational market, I thought that there might be other companies with comparable product offerings that are focusing on other markets like developing countries. Any advice would be appreciated and you may contact us off-line. Peter T. Parrish SolarGnosis 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Ste. 351 South Pasadena, CA 91030 (323) 839-6108 peter.parrish at solargnosis.com   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at mountainpowersolutions.com Mon Dec 10 21:32:20 2018 From: steve at mountainpowersolutions.com (Steve Romo) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 19:32:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Ion / Sunny Island Message-ID: Does anyone have real life experience with auto gen start using the SOC setting for a Sunny Island system when using Blue Ion Batteries? Or a stand alone AGS that can dial in an accurate voltage start above 48 volts (48.5 or 49)? Thanks -- Steve Romo Mountain Power Solutions LLC NABCEP certified PV Installer #110112-124 Kohler Certified Generator Technician Generac Certified Generator Technician 970-433-6316 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From holt at holteksolar.com Tue Dec 11 10:05:41 2018 From: holt at holteksolar.com (Holt Kelly) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 15:05:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Darn Pesky Electrons Message-ID: This is a new one....not critical issue, just very curious. 7.92kW Enphase IQ6 system on garage roof. There seems to be some RFI(?) that is preventing the garage door remote from operating unless it is right at the door. Works ok at night and in cloudy weather, but in full sun it isn't operating as usual before system installed. Small inconvenience but a curious situation. Any thoughts? Holt E. Kelly Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products 500 Jewell Dr. Waco, TX 76712 www.holteksolar.com 254-751-9111 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 11:31:41 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 08:31:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Darn Pesky Electrons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Holt I you may have guessed it is Enphase, I have seen wired bridges cause this and I have also had the older "M" do this has to do with the frequency of the carrier of the bridge. Jerry On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 7:05 AM Holt Kelly wrote: > This is a new one….not critical issue, just very curious. > > > > 7.92kW Enphase IQ6 system on garage roof. There seems to be some RFI(?) > that is preventing the garage door remote from operating unless it is right > at the door. Works ok at night and in cloudy weather, but in full sun it > isn’t operating as usual before system installed. > > > > Small inconvenience but a curious situation. > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > Holt E. Kelly > > Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products > > 500 Jewell Dr. > > Waco, TX 76712 > > www.holteksolar.com > > 254-751-9111 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Dec 12 09:35:06 2018 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 07:35:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Funky garage door openers Message-ID: <000701d49227$e4207820$ac616860$@solarwork.com> Is the antenna for the garage door hanging down & free? My in-laws got a new garage door opener installed & it worked sporadically and only when the car was at a certain place in the driveway. The installer had wrapped the antenna around the metal support bracket. I freed it up and the door remote works great now. Along the same thread: possibly installing a sheet of foil - aluminum bubble or ? insulation above the motor/receiver on the ceiling might shield the radio for the garage door opener. This same product [www.radiantfoil.com] totally blocks all radio reception in our yurt & 3 buildings on our property & all have foil insulation barriers. Let us know if you try this & it works. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Holt Kelly Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 8:06 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Darn Pesky Electrons This is a new one..not critical issue, just very curious. 7.92kW Enphase IQ6 system on garage roof. There seems to be some RFI(?) that is preventing the garage door remote from operating unless it is right at the door. Works ok at night and in cloudy weather, but in full sun it isn't operating as usual before system installed. Small inconvenience but a curious situation. Any thoughts? Holt E. Kelly Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products 500 Jewell Dr. Waco, TX 76712 www.holteksolar.com 254-751-9111 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 20:14:34 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 17:14:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverter issue Message-ID: <5E96D321-A1D9-4F69-9BC4-FA0E2E4E9DCC@gmail.com> Hi all, I’ve had the following issue with a new PAE 4024. It’s ac voltage will rise and fall about 10+ volts ( 124-115) over about 10 seconds like clock work. Regardless of the load, or battery SOC/voltage. I checked with a local shop, they also have the issue. They checked all their back stock and they all did the same thing. However they had an older one, say 6 months old that didn’t do it. Nor do any of my previous magnum installs do this. Clients are not too thrilled with this as lights go up and down in brightness. Magnum’s response was that this is normal for an off grid inverter and that somehow this “feature” has to do with it being able to AC couple better. I’m writing to ask if others have seen this as well and more importantly if anyone has a fix? Thanks, Jay Peltz Power From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Dec 12 21:02:15 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 16:02:15 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kyocera 145s Message-ID: <02cd01d49287$e008cb60$a01a6220$@com> Hi all, I'm looking for (300) Kyocera KD 145 SX mods. I don't even know if Kyocera makes 'em any more. Please let me know off-list. Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 00:20:18 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 21:20:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverter issue In-Reply-To: <5E96D321-A1D9-4F69-9BC4-FA0E2E4E9DCC@gmail.com> References: <5E96D321-A1D9-4F69-9BC4-FA0E2E4E9DCC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches I can only use Outback as a reference, is the programming set to search not on, What happens under a light load, l have seen cycling on Outbacks that had low idle load and were programmed to high and they hunted like that. Jerry On Wed, Dec 12, 2018, 7:16 PM Jay Hi all, > > I’ve had the following issue with a new PAE 4024. > > It’s ac voltage will rise and fall about 10+ volts ( 124-115) over about > 10 seconds like clock work. Regardless of the load, or battery SOC/voltage. > I checked with a local shop, they also have the issue. They checked all > their back stock and they all did the same thing. However they had an older > one, say 6 months old that didn’t do it. Nor do any of my previous magnum > installs do this. > > Clients are not too thrilled with this as lights go up and down in > brightness. > > Magnum’s response was that this is normal for an off grid inverter and > that somehow this “feature” has to do with it being able to AC couple > better. > > I’m writing to ask if others have seen this as well and more importantly > if anyone has a fix? > > Thanks, > > Jay > Peltz Power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 06:55:00 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 04:55:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microhydro and L-ion In-Reply-To: References: <0Lop25-1h87ck1Nsp-00grNh@mrelay.perfora.net> <001e01d49043$dec380b0$9c4a8210$@sbcglobal.net> <0Lu6Fc-1hUIPd0oju-011Qda@mrelay.perfora.net> <2b15d09c-19b3-7ae7-8a88-d45177a7a938@psln.com> <65a7d53b-06f5-5663-619e-988ba0d93229@solarray.com> Message-ID: Hi Jerry, Can you give details on the Blue Ion BMU relay? We recently installed one and I would really like a relay to start the generator, based on what the BMU SOC is? I asked Blue Ion about this but they said it wasn't available? What model are you talking about? Thanks On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 2:48 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Blue ion and there BMU can control a relay as a dump or anything else, > their BMU is far ahead of most. You will need to contact Blue Ion to get > this set up but once its configured your in great shape. > In the Outback program you can use the voltage preset as a dump but > because of the very flat line between 20% and 80% it does take a little > more to get set but because of their BMU the batteries are protected > against over voltage. To set the "sell" I have found much the same in > setting up in the Outback programming using voltage it just takes some time. > It would be nice to let the BMU tell the inverters when to sell, maybe > someday. > Jerry > > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018, 12:33 PM Ray >> I would think the standard diversion controller setup would work, but >> not sure. I've been hoping that the Li+ manufacturers would add a relay >> control to their BMS. Basically when the battery thinks its charged it >> just turns on the dump load. I don't think the Li+ folks are near that >> far along yet. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 12/10/18 1:15 PM, frenergy wrote: >> > How or can a Harris DC microhydro (<.6 KW) work with existing PV >> > charged Outback FP2 (or Radian for that matter), whilst charging a >> > ~16KW L-ion "24" volt battery ? I think that's a real word. The >> > output of the hydro varies over time from .6KW to .1KW >> > >> > Bill >> > >> > Feather River Solar Electric >> > Bill Battagin, Owner >> > 4291 Nelson St. >> > Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> > 530.284.7849 >> > CA Lic 874049 >> > www.frenergy.net >> > >> > >> > --- >> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Dec 13 10:15:54 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:15:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverter issue In-Reply-To: <5E96D321-A1D9-4F69-9BC4-FA0E2E4E9DCC@gmail.com> References: <5E96D321-A1D9-4F69-9BC4-FA0E2E4E9DCC@gmail.com> Message-ID: I had a PAE 4024 run high voltage so that it wouldn't AC couple at all. My older PAE does not fluctuate. At 08:14 PM 12/12/2018, you wrote: >Hi all, I’ve had the following issue with a >new PAE 4024. It’s ac voltage will rise and >fall about 10+ volts ( 124-115) over about 10 >seconds like clock work. Regardless of the load, >or battery SOC/voltage. I checked with a local >shop, they also have the issue. They checked all >their back stock and they all did the same >thing. However they had an older one, say 6 >months old that didn’t do it. Nor do any of my >previous magnum installs do this. Clients are >not too thrilled with this as lights go up and >down in brightness. Magnum’s response was that >this is normal for an off grid inverter and that >somehow this “feature” has to do with it >being able to AC couple better. I’m writing to >ask if others have seen this as well and more >importantly if anyone has a fix? Thanks, Jay >Peltz Power >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: >RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change >listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >List-Archive: >http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >List rules & etiquette: >www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or >update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org From louis at solarcowboyz.com Wed Dec 12 23:11:34 2018 From: louis at solarcowboyz.com (louis at solarcowboyz.com) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 21:11:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverter issue Message-ID: <20181212211134.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.47f56824bd.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Dec 13 11:55:48 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 09:55:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverter issue In-Reply-To: <20181213151556.097AF1079FF@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <5E96D321-A1D9-4F69-9BC4-FA0E2E4E9DCC@gmail.com> <20181213151556.097AF1079FF@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <45f3b7a1-387d-5dae-4648-f28dbe0107f5@solarray.com> I've got quite a few Magnum PAEs installed and have not seen this before.  I have one I'm about to install, so I just bench tested it and I did see the fluctuation.  It was cycling from 116vac to 122 vac about every 5 seconds.  As far as Magnum claiming this is "Normal" off grid operation, well, we may be switching inverter brands, because that is the "Wrong" answer.  This reminds me of Xantrex's infamous TR inverters that caused lights to blink on/off, and fridges to cycle every minute.  It wears on appliances and customers' nerves. Normal operation is stable 120 vac 60 Hz, sine wave. period.  I'm calling Magnum right now, I don't know what they did, but they need to undo it right away. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/13/18 8:15 AM, Drake wrote: > I had a PAE 4024 run high voltage so that it wouldn't AC couple at > all. My older PAE does not fluctuate. > > At 08:14 PM 12/12/2018, you wrote: >> Hi all, I’ve had the following issue with a new PAE 4024. It’s ac >> voltage will rise and fall about 10+ volts ( 124-115) over about 10 >> seconds like clock work. Regardless of the load, or battery >> SOC/voltage. I checked with a local shop, they also have the issue. >> They checked all their back stock and they all did the same thing. >> However they had an older one, say 6 months old that didn’t do it. >> Nor do any of my previous magnum installs do this. Clients are not >> too thrilled with this as lights go up and down in brightness. >> Magnum’s response was that this is normal for an off grid inverter >> and that somehow this “feature” has to do with it being able to >> AC couple better. I’m writing to ask if others have seen this as >> well and more importantly if anyone has a fix? Thanks, Jay Peltz >> Power _______________________________________________ List sponsored >> by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out >> or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 13:37:33 2018 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 10:37:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote Activation Message-ID: <2B4E8B1C-7AE9-49C9-B3AA-0F898DF9FB5F@gmail.com> Wrenches, A good friend and fellow Wrench here at the List turned me on to a exterior fire sprinkler system called W.E.E.D.S, or wind enabled ember dousing system. I’m totally on board was hoping someone with up to date IT/SCADA/M2M knowledge could advise me on how best to activate a solenoid valve to provide the water supply and provide a signal to start a generator which runs a submersible well pump. I’d like to be able to activate the system when I’m away from my ranch. The solenoid valve will be located in the mechanical cubby of my home. We get almost no cell signal outside our home and use an exterior Yagi antenna, a signal booster/amplifier, and an indoor broadcasting antenna that sits in an alcove where our cell phones reside. The signal does not extend beyond the alcove, and I really like it like that. The cell phones are used as “hotspots” for internet. I ran conduits from the alcove to the mechanical cubby. The generator is located on the other side of the property and there is no chance of getting wires from the house to it. It’s sole purpose is to run my shops and submersible well we put in as a back up to our hydro supply. It’s location receives a weak cell signal. Thanks, Michael Morningstar From ray at solarray.com Thu Dec 13 16:00:58 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 14:00:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverter issue In-Reply-To: <45f3b7a1-387d-5dae-4648-f28dbe0107f5@solarray.com> References: <5E96D321-A1D9-4F69-9BC4-FA0E2E4E9DCC@gmail.com> <20181213151556.097AF1079FF@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <45f3b7a1-387d-5dae-4648-f28dbe0107f5@solarray.com> Message-ID: Just got off the phone with Magnum tech support.  Their stance: 1) The fluctuation is within the 5% allowable voltage window. (True, but still annoying, atypical 120 vac behavior) 2) They haven't changed anything, the inverters have always regulated voltage this way.. I replied that I've never seen  this behavior with their inverters in 10 years, and they again insisted the inverters have always behaved this way. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/13/18 9:55 AM, Ray wrote: > I've got quite a few Magnum PAEs installed and have not seen this > before.  I have one I'm about to install, so I just bench tested it > and I did see the fluctuation.  It was cycling from 116vac to 122 vac > about every 5 seconds.  As far as Magnum claiming this is "Normal" off > grid operation, well, we may be switching inverter brands, because > that is the "Wrong" answer.  This reminds me of Xantrex's infamous TR > inverters that caused lights to blink on/off, and fridges to cycle > every minute.  It wears on appliances and customers' nerves. > > Normal operation is stable 120 vac 60 Hz, sine wave. period.  I'm > calling Magnum right now, I don't know what they did, but they need to > undo it right away. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 12/13/18 8:15 AM, Drake wrote: >> I had a PAE 4024 run high voltage so that it wouldn't AC couple at >> all. My older PAE does not fluctuate. >> >> At 08:14 PM 12/12/2018, you wrote: >>> Hi all, I’ve had the following issue with a new PAE 4024. It’s >>> ac voltage will rise and fall about 10+ volts ( 124-115) over about >>> 10 seconds like clock work. Regardless of the load, or battery >>> SOC/voltage. I checked with a local shop, they also have the issue. >>> They checked all their back stock and they all did the same thing. >>> However they had an older one, say 6 months old that didn’t do it. >>> Nor do any of my previous magnum installs do this. Clients are not >>> too thrilled with this as lights go up and down in brightness. >>> Magnum’s response was that this is normal for an off grid inverter >>> and that somehow this “feature” has to do with it being able to >>> AC couple better. I’m writing to ask if others have seen this as >>> well and more importantly if anyone has a fix? Thanks, Jay Peltz >>> Power _______________________________________________ List sponsored >>> by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> List-Archive: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >>> List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out >>> or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From solarcowboy at yahoo.com Thu Dec 13 17:25:05 2018 From: solarcowboy at yahoo.com (Jerry Caldwell) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 22:25:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E True Up Bill Shock References: <1766619790.4018598.1544739905537.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1766619790.4018598.1544739905537@mail.yahoo.com> Wrenches, Two of my customers have called in the last two days with extreme shock over the amount of their December net metering (NEM) true-up bills. Has anyone else had similar experiences? One of the customers has had his system online for a few years, and this year was significantly different for him than previous years. The other is a new customer from this year with no prior history to compare to. It would be helpful to know if anyone else is having this issue. I'm wondering in the back of my head if PG&E isn't trying to cover the massive legal bills they face due to the big fires. Thanks, Jerry Caldwell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu Dec 13 19:06:18 2018 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 00:06:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW 275BOB Message-ID: I’m in need of two Solar World SW275. BOB modules. Please contact me off list if you have any. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Dec 13 15:11:53 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:11:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Interesting gen start problem Message-ID: Friends: While I’d like to think I have seen everything, I came across this scenario recently that surprised me: We replace an existing FX system that had a generator component. Since the FX inverter can only provide 12 volts for generator start, and we did not see a relay in the power room, we assumed there was a 12 volt coil relay in the generator room. Turns out this was not the case. Generators use the cranking battery voltage (B+) to power control circuits. The B+ to start control relays is completed by a contact closure. In this case, there was no relay. Instead the original installer use the 12 volts from the FX inverters to provide substitute B+ to the generator control circuitry. The end result is we burned up the Radian control board. Apparently the FX inverter had enough 12 volt capability to make this work, but the Radians did not. When we began troubleshooting, our first clue something was wrong was that there was no relay. Our second clue was that one of the12 volt start leads was grounded. We also burned up a relay in the generator. I hope this little cautionary tale helps one of you avoid a burned up control board someday, somewhere. This problem was a big headache. William PS: Here is a web page on this particular installation. On this project we incorporated some of the GSLC wiring innovations discussed in this forum. Wm [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1803 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Dec 13 12:52:29 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 09:52:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Microhydro and L-ion In-Reply-To: References: <0Lop25-1h87ck1Nsp-00grNh@mrelay.perfora.net> <001e01d49043$dec380b0$9c4a8210$@sbcglobal.net> <0Lu6Fc-1hUIPd0oju-011Qda@mrelay.perfora.net> <2b15d09c-19b3-7ae7-8a88-d45177a7a938@psln.com> <65a7d53b-06f5-5663-619e-988ba0d93229@solarray.com> Message-ID: <95c4356bad715cbfaaf153afef1e87fa@127.0.0.1> I do not get how going into an LFP battery is any different than a LA for a dump load? In the LFP, overcharging will shut down the battery BMS and loss of inverter power. In LA, overcharging will ruin the battery over time unless hi battery cut-out is set. It will then shut down the inverter output and ruin the battery. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 13 Dec 2018 04:55:00 -0700, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Jerry, Can you give details on the Blue Ion BMU relay? We recently installed one and I would really like a relay to start the generator, based on what the BMU SOC is? I asked Blue Ion about this but they said it wasn't available? What model are you talking about? Thanks On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 2:48 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Blue ion and there BMU can control a relay as a dump or anything else, their BMU is far ahead of most. You will need to contact Blue Ion to get this set up but once its configured your in great shape. In the Outback program you can use the voltage preset as a dump but because of the very flat line between 20% and 80% it does take a little more to get set but because of their BMU the batteries are protected against over voltage. To set the "sell" I have found much the same in setting up in the Outback programming using voltage it just takes some time. It would be nice to let the BMU tell the inverters when to sell, maybe someday. Jerry On Mon, Dec 10, 2018, 12:33 PM Ray How or can a Harris DC microhydro ( > charged Outback FP2 (or Radian for that matter), whilst charging a > ~16KW L-ion "24" volt battery ? I think that's a real word. The > output of the hydro varies over time from .6KW to .1KW > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net [5] > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus [6] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [9] > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [14] List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [19] List rules font-family: 'times new roman', serif;"> Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [4] mailto:ray at solarray.com [5] http://www.frenergy.net [6] https://www.avast.com/antivirus [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [15] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html [20] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [21] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 14:56:24 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 11:56:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverter issue In-Reply-To: <20181212211134.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.47f56824bd.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> References: <20181212211134.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.47f56824bd.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <5BDCF628-E00D-4A5E-A216-575904886499@gmail.com> Hi Louis Again, magnum admitted to the issue, gave no fix. I checked with RE-Wrenches as someone might have figured a work around. Jay > On Dec 12, 2018, at 8:11 PM, wrote: > > Jay, > > I have not seen this, yet. > If you go into the Magnums remote and look at AC meter does the meter reflect what your are seeing on your volt meter? > (I am guessing that you see this on your volt meter) > > If this is a "AC coupling feature" then the user should be able to enable this for AC coupling and disable if not. > The factory setting should be disabled. > > If this is a real feature and the user can not enable/disable I think it was not thought out well. > > Louis. > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum inverter issue > From: Jay > Date: Wed, December 12, 2018 6:14 pm > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Hi all, > > I’ve had the following issue with a new PAE 4024. > > It’s ac voltage will rise and fall about 10+ volts ( 124-115) over about 10 seconds like clock work. Regardless of the load, or battery SOC/voltage. > I checked with a local shop, they also have the issue. They checked all their back stock and they all did the same thing. However they had an older one, say 6 months old that didn’t do it. Nor do any of my previous magnum installs do this. > > Clients are not too thrilled with this as lights go up and down in brightness. > > Magnum’s response was that this is normal for an off grid inverter and that somehow this “feature” has to do with it being able to AC couple better. > > I’m writing to ask if others have seen this as well and more importantly if anyone has a fix? > > Thanks, > > Jay > Peltz Power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Fri Dec 14 08:58:43 2018 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (dan at foxfire-energy.com) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 06:58:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Interesting gen start problem Message-ID: <20181214065843.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.90de070e16.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1803 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vtsolar at icloud.com Fri Dec 14 09:43:56 2018 From: vtsolar at icloud.com (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:43:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lg chem Message-ID: Does anyone know when LG chem batteries for Storedge inverters are going to be available? I’ve heard nothing new for months thanks. Kirk Herander From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 11:17:34 2018 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (jerrysgarage01) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 08:17:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lg chem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5c13d7a2.1c69fb81.1307e.24e6@mx.google.com> You need to check with your distributor because we have been installing for many months now, both master and slave batteriesJerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Kirk Herander Date: 12/14/18 6:43 AM (GMT-08:00) To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lg chem Does anyone know when LG chem batteries for Storedge inverters are going to be available? I’ve heard nothing new for months thanks. Kirk Herander _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Fri Dec 14 12:07:38 2018 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:07:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lg chem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They are available. We've been installing them for a while now. You need to get "certified" as far as I know. On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 7:45 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > > Does anyone know when LG chem batteries for Storedge inverters are going > to be available? I’ve heard nothing new for months thanks. > > Kirk Herander > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid loren at cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518* -- *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Dec 14 12:48:54 2018 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 10:48:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Interesting gen start problem In-Reply-To: <20181214065843.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.90de070e16.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> References: <20181214065843.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.90de070e16.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <072dde08-6939-a127-e006-e2c5374fe2b0@solarray.com> I've had problems with several manufacturers' onboard relays, and 12 v outputs.  For instance I now always use a 2nd relay controlled by the onboard relay, even for little things like Zephyr Power Vents.  If you look at the new relays compared to say the old Trace SW relays, they're just not near the same. That's concerning that over current would fry the whole Radian control board.   On Midnite Classics, if you exceeded the 200mA 12v output, it just shut the output off. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 12/14/18 6:58 AM, dan at foxfire-energy.com wrote: > OBTW. the FNDC is a dry contact. > > db > > > Dan Brown > Foxfire Energy Corp. > Renewable Energy Systems > (802)-483-2564 > www.Foxfire-Energy.com > NABCEP #092907-44 > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Interesting gen start problem > From: William Miller > > Date: Thu, December 13, 2018 3:11 pm > To: RE-wrenches > > > Friends: > While I’d like to think I have seen everything, I came across this > scenario recently that surprised me: > We replace an existing FX system that had a generator component.  > Since the > FX inverter can only provide 12 volts for generator start, and we > did not see a relay in the power room, we assumed there was a 12 > volt coil relay in the generator room.  Turns out this was not the > case. > Generators use the cranking battery voltage (B+) to power control > circuits.  The B+ to start control relays is completed by a > contact closure.  In this case, there was no relay.  Instead the > original installer use the 12 volts from the FX inverters to > provide substitute B+ to the generator control circuitry. > The end result is we burned up the Radian control board. > Apparently the FX inverter had enough 12 volt capability to make > this work, but the Radians did not. > When we began troubleshooting, our first clue something was wrong > was that there was no relay.  Our second clue was that one of > the12 volt start leads was grounded. We also burned up a relay in > the generator. > I hope this little cautionary tale helps one of you avoid a burned > up control board someday, somewhere. This problem was a big headache. > William > PS: Here is a web page > > on this particular installation.  On this project we incorporated > some of the GSLC wiring innovations discussed in this forum. > Wm > Gradient Cap_mini > Lic 773985 > millersolar.com > 805-438-5600 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1803 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 12:53:07 2018 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 12:53:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lg chem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirk, I installed one last year when I was still working for Rob Stubbins Electrical . I think they got it at CED Greentech. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service . On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 10:45 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > > Does anyone know when LG chem batteries for Storedge inverters are going > to be available? I’ve heard nothing new for months thanks. > > Kirk Herander > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Dec 14 11:04:21 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 08:04:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lg chem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The 10H for 400vdc is out there. The 48v RESU are not in NA. They came out with a 13.4 kwh 48v for the EU and orient/down under but they just have not really made the leap for offgrid. I was ready to sell many of them and lost sales because their engineers kust did not understand offgrid. I have no interest in the 400v storage and can't help you much other than to say contact Storedge. An LG chem sales engineer asked me why I do not and I said the last thing I would want is an inverter faulting 400v into my AC appliances and devices. My 48v LG after 2 years of daily cycling is still at 99% state of life. If I needed another I would have a friend in Australia ship it here. An amazing product that just needed a little more development to protect it from an XW+ being able drive AC into a short circuit:) Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:43:56 -0500, Kirk Herander wrote: > Does anyone know when LG chem batteries for Storedge inverters are going > to be available? I’ve heard nothing new for months thanks. > > Kirk Herander > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 10:47:25 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 07:47:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lg chem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <79484E01-ABEA-4EEE-A3E6-EB591884DEC4@gmail.com> HI Kirk, SE bought BYD battery and I expect you’ll see them and not LG Chem. As to when, that I don’t know, but would expect pretty soon. jay peltz power > On Dec 14, 2018, at 6:43 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > > Does anyone know when LG chem batteries for Storedge inverters are going to be available? I’ve heard nothing new for months thanks. > > Kirk Herander > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Dec 14 13:19:21 2018 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 18:19:21 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lg chem In-Reply-To: <79484E01-ABEA-4EEE-A3E6-EB591884DEC4@gmail.com> References: <79484E01-ABEA-4EEE-A3E6-EB591884DEC4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay (and list) - SolarEdge bought 75% of Kokam for $88 million. BYD is a $17 billion (2017) company, and is the largest battery cell manufacturer in the world. The BYD Battery-Box HV is supported by the SMA Sunny Boy Storage (SBS), but not the StorEdge currently. UL listing of the Battery Box HV is in process, and they should be available shortly as another option for the SBS in addition to the LG Chem RESU 10H (type C). Best - Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile:  +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy: www.SMA-America.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/overview.html Full training schedule: https://www.sma-america.com/partners/sma-solar-academy/seminars/trainings/training/list.html     This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 8:47 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lg chem HI Kirk, SE bought BYD battery and I expect you’ll see them and not LG Chem. As to when, that I don’t know, but would expect pretty soon. jay peltz power > On Dec 14, 2018, at 6:43 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > > > Does anyone know when LG chem batteries for Storedge inverters are going to be available? I’ve heard nothing new for months thanks. > > Kirk Herander > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.mahon%40sma-america.com%7C1b7a480b5af6437168da08d661ef89cf%7Ca059b96c28294d1188374cc1ff84735d%7C0%7C0%7C636804078776624698&sdata=zjyvRZDd6Nk9T3l5OK0Bw3IkNiLfg24iQ%2BCJfFL6oGI%3D&reserved=0 > > List-Archive: https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.mahon%40sma-america.com%7C1b7a480b5af6437168da08d661ef89cf%7Ca059b96c28294d1188374cc1ff84735d%7C0%7C0%7C636804078776624698&sdata=iWzYbfsNooHDtugSGMaO%2BqBNFLwUTLVgGDuzKelDTwg%3D&reserved=0 > > List rules & etiquette: > https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.mahon%40sma-america.com%7C1b7a480b5af6437168da08d661ef89cf%7Ca059b96c28294d1188374cc1ff84735d%7C0%7C0%7C636804078776624698&sdata=loibi8emzmrJeqYfgciZhlAIf3irZac7jjE3g3T01To%3D&reserved=0 > > Check out or update participant bios: > https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.members.re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.mahon%40sma-america.com%7C1b7a480b5af6437168da08d661ef89cf%7Ca059b96c28294d1188374cc1ff84735d%7C0%7C0%7C636804078776624698&sdata=Pz%2BHPVLA0rwQcCP7rtEz3BAaIGFtv2Mh%2B2sHHyCY%2BPg%3D&reserved=0 > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.mahon%40sma-america.com%7C1b7a480b5af6437168da08d661ef89cf%7Ca059b96c28294d1188374cc1ff84735d%7C0%7C0%7C636804078776624698&sdata=zjyvRZDd6Nk9T3l5OK0Bw3IkNiLfg24iQ%2BCJfFL6oGI%3D&reserved=0 List-Archive: https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2Fmaillist.html&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.mahon%40sma-america.com%7C1b7a480b5af6437168da08d661ef89cf%7Ca059b96c28294d1188374cc1ff84735d%7C0%7C0%7C636804078776624698&sdata=iWzYbfsNooHDtugSGMaO%2BqBNFLwUTLVgGDuzKelDTwg%3D&reserved=0 List rules & etiquette: https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.mahon%40sma-america.com%7C1b7a480b5af6437168da08d661ef89cf%7Ca059b96c28294d1188374cc1ff84735d%7C0%7C0%7C636804078776624698&sdata=loibi8emzmrJeqYfgciZhlAIf3irZac7jjE3g3T01To%3D&reserved=0 Check out or update participant bios: https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.members.re-wrenches.org&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.mahon%40sma-america.com%7C1b7a480b5af6437168da08d661ef89cf%7Ca059b96c28294d1188374cc1ff84735d%7C0%7C0%7C636804078776624698&sdata=Pz%2BHPVLA0rwQcCP7rtEz3BAaIGFtv2Mh%2B2sHHyCY%2BPg%3D&reserved=0 From william at millersolar.com Fri Dec 14 13:16:04 2018 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 10:16:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Interesting gen start problem In-Reply-To: <072dde08-6939-a127-e006-e2c5374fe2b0@solarray.com> References: <20181214065843.720a661d8db719b1f2ad39509c9edaa3.90de070e16.wbe@email04.godaddy.com> <072dde08-6939-a127-e006-e2c5374fe2b0@solarray.com> Message-ID: <0d590454861e36fff0657d4e5f081ff6@mail.gmail.com> Ray: The entire board was not damaged. There is a significant scorch mark at the connector and immediate area, but the inverter still works. We moved the start leads to the other Radian and all is well. Outback does not list the daughter board for sale, only the entire board stack, and that is $2,500.00. Outback was supposed to reply if they could sell just the daughter board but never got back to me. I need to call them back and press the point. William [image: Gradient Cap_mini] Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray *Sent:* Friday, December 14, 2018 9:49 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Interesting gen start problem That's concerning that over current would fry the whole Radian control board. On Midnite Classics, if you exceeded the 200mA 12v output, it just shut the output off. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1803 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Fri Dec 14 17:45:19 2018 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 17:45:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lg chem References: Message-ID: <50217390C139480FA8D2F4F9B682F547@PeterPC> Kirk Some authorized distributors are getting them this week. peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirk Herander" To: Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 9:43 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lg chem > > Does anyone know when LG chem batteries for Storedge inverters are going > to be available? I’ve heard nothing new for months thanks. > > Kirk Herander > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Mon Dec 17 17:25:16 2018 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 12:25:16 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pika Message-ID: Aloha All, Do any of the Wrenches out there have any experience with The Pika Islanding Inverter and Harbor Smart Battery ? Looking specifically if to find out if they can be stacked (inverters and batteries)? I see there have been several threads about the company but nothing on the stacking option for their new Islanding inverters or even a confirmed installation. Any one? As always..Thanks. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Dec 18 09:21:41 2018 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 09:21:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vanner RE24-4500N Message-ID: Does anyone have a Vanner RE24-4500N they would like to sell, or know of anyone who might? Thanks, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Dec 18 15:25:22 2018 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 10:25:22 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] looking for a 145-175 watt module Message-ID: Aloha, I'm looking to source 300 145-175 watt modules @ nominally 12V. And they CANNOT come from China. They have to come from a TAA-compliant country. See the link below. Mahalo, marco https://gsa.federalschedules.com/resources/taa-designated-countries/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 13:58:51 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 10:58:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AIMS power inverters Message-ID: <78250555-2674-4295-A422-FE34D5ABF989@gmail.com> Hi All, I was recently looking at the AIMS website and they show 30-200kw battery inverter. I was wondering if anyone has used them or has anything to say one way or the other? Or has recommendations to other brands for same sort of sized inverters. thx jay peltz power From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 07:50:38 2018 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 05:50:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600 Vdc Transfer Switch Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have a recommendation for a DPDT 600 Vdc rated indoor transfer switch? This would be for selecting from grid-tied inverter to off-grid charge controller during a power outage. Its for a Morningstar 600Vdc charge controller that doesn't have this feature built in. Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 10:41:47 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 07:41:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600 Vdc Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2123929A-75E0-46FC-91E1-06427DEAAFF6@gmail.com> Hi Mac, There is the Morningstar TS-MPPT-60-600V-48-DB-TR It’s got a transfer switch inside. But maybe you want something different? Jay Peltz power. > On Dec 19, 2018, at 4:50 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone have a recommendation for a DPDT 600 Vdc rated indoor transfer switch? This would be for selecting from grid-tied inverter to off-grid charge controller during a power outage. Its for a Morningstar 600Vdc charge controller that doesn't have this feature built in. > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 14:40:47 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 15:40:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600 Vdc Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How about this https://www.crawfordelectricsupply.com/c/gea-thn3361-30a-3p-hd-ss-n1-600v-nonfuse-sw-7046 On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 8:50 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Does anyone have a recommendation for a DPDT 600 Vdc rated indoor transfer > switch? This would be for selecting from grid-tied inverter to off-grid > charge controller during a power outage. Its for a Morningstar 600Vdc > charge controller that doesn't have this feature built in. > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Dec 19 17:16:40 2018 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:16:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600 Vdc Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <019e01d497e8$84ff2eb0$8efd8c10$@glbcc.com> Not a transfer switch. That is a simple DC rated disconnect, like the Square D equivalent. A transfer switch allows one load to be powered by one of two sources – a multi-pole, double throw device. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 2:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 600 Vdc Transfer Switch How about this https://www.crawfordelectricsupply.com/c/gea-thn3361-30a-3p-hd-ss-n1-600v-nonfuse-sw-7046 On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 8:50 AM Mac Lewis > wrote: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have a recommendation for a DPDT 600 Vdc rated indoor transfer switch? This would be for selecting from grid-tied inverter to off-grid charge controller during a power outage. Its for a Morningstar 600Vdc charge controller that doesn't have this feature built in. Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 10:58:17 2018 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 11:58:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600 Vdc Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: <019e01d497e8$84ff2eb0$8efd8c10$@glbcc.com> References: <019e01d497e8$84ff2eb0$8efd8c10$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Sorry, correct, this is what I was looking for https://www.crawfordelectricsupply.com/c/gea-tc10323r-100a-2p-dbl-thr-n3r-120-240v-nonfus-6875?pageView=detailed&searchTerm=transfer%20switch&searchEngagement=engaged&rowNumber=12&colNumber=1&fromSearchPage=true On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 7:51 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > Not a transfer switch. That is a simple DC rated disconnect, like the > Square D equivalent. > > A transfer switch allows one load to be powered by one of two sources – a > multi-pole, double throw device. > > > > -Glenn > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Chris Mason > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 19, 2018 2:41 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 600 Vdc Transfer Switch > > > > How about this > > > https://www.crawfordelectricsupply.com/c/gea-thn3361-30a-3p-hd-ss-n1-600v-nonfuse-sw-7046 > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 8:50 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > Does anyone have a recommendation for a DPDT 600 Vdc rated indoor transfer > switch? This would be for selecting from grid-tied inverter to off-grid > charge controller during a power outage. Its for a Morningstar 600Vdc > charge controller that doesn't have this feature built in. > > > > Thanks > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > Chris Mason > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Solar Design Engineer > > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > > > www.cometsolar.com > > 264.235.5670 > > 869.662.5670 > > Skype: netconcepts > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 20:05:47 2018 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:05:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cost Message-ID: <9F2508F9-4D88-4480-9134-6DB55398DB35@gmail.com> Hi all, I was doing some research on the Chevy bolt, and found that it’s battery cost about $145 per kWh in 2015. All the batteries I can find for sale for offgrid small systems ( 10-100 kWh) are in the $700-1000 per kWh Does anyone have insight into this. Or maybe better put, ways to buy at closer to the $145 kWh? Thanks Jay Peltz power. From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Dec 21 10:26:58 2018 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 07:26:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cost In-Reply-To: <9F2508F9-4D88-4480-9134-6DB55398DB35@gmail.com> References: <9F2508F9-4D88-4480-9134-6DB55398DB35@gmail.com> Message-ID: The Chevy, Tesla, Nissan are all NMC lithium. Residential is mostly all LFP except LG. NMC is about 1/2 the weight as LFP also. Different design goals is my take. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:05:47 -0800, Jay wrote: > Hi all, > > I was doing some research on the Chevy bolt, and found that it’s battery > cost about $145 per kWh in 2015. > > All the batteries I can find for sale for offgrid small systems ( 10-100 > kWh) are in the $700-1000 per kWh > > Does anyone have insight into this. > Or maybe better put, ways to buy at closer to the $145 kWh? > > Thanks > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org -- From atruitt at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 11:28:02 2018 From: atruitt at gmail.com (Andrew Truitt) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 09:28:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cost In-Reply-To: References: <9F2508F9-4D88-4480-9134-6DB55398DB35@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good point Dave. LFP has a much higher ignition point than NMC and that added safety is often deemed worth the added weight for stationary applications. Not sure about resi-scale costs but Adara has a nice C&I product priced in the range you mentioned Jay, but including design, installation, commissioning and 10 years of O&M. Powin Energy has VERY competitive pricing starting in the 500kWh range, and will have smaller packs coming out next year. *Regards, * *Andrew Truitt* www.dr.ventures d: 202.486.7507 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 [image: Logo] The content of this email is confidential and intended for the recipient specified in message only. It is strictly forbidden to share any part of this message with any third party, without a written consent of the sender. If you received this message by mistake, please reply to this message and follow with its deletion, so that we can ensure such a mistake does not occur in the future. On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 8:38 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > The Chevy, Tesla, Nissan are all NMC lithium. Residential is mostly all > LFP except LG. > NMC is about 1/2 the weight as LFP also. Different design goals is my > take. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:05:47 -0800, Jay wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I was doing some research on the Chevy bolt, and found that it’s battery > > cost about $145 per kWh in 2015. > > > > All the batteries I can find for sale for offgrid small systems ( 10-100 > > kWh) are in the $700-1000 per kWh > > > > Does anyone have insight into this. > > Or maybe better put, ways to buy at closer to the $145 kWh? > > > > Thanks > > > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List-Archive: > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Dec 21 13:36:02 2018 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight Solar Power Systems) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 11:36:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cost In-Reply-To: <9F2508F9-4D88-4480-9134-6DB55398DB35@gmail.com> References: <9F2508F9-4D88-4480-9134-6DB55398DB35@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, EV battery packs will always be less than the type we use in the RE industry. Chevy Bolt replacement battery in 2017 is $262/kWh according to this: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1110881_how-much-is-a-replacement-chevy-bolt-ev-electric-car-battery Over the last 5 years, two brands we sell have stayed the same cost, another brand we offer has lowered cost by 15%. I think the latter is due to our volume though. Our retail price is less than $700/kWh for cells and battery packs without EMS. A little more with EMS or BMS. I receive many solicitations from manufacturers that want me to sell their Li-ion product (60 to 200AH cell sizes). Prices quoted for small orders (100 pieces) are under $300/kWh, FOB China. Importing has always been a hassle and typical shipping and import cost adds about 10% more. With so many start-ups in the Li battery business, buyer beware. I hear stories from customers too often about a great deal they got and now the battery has failed and they get no response from the seller or manufacturer. Rather than cost reductions, I believe the future will show advancement in cycle life as this is the holy grail being sought by so many. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Dec 20, 2018, at 6:05 PM, Jay wrote: Hi all, I was doing some research on the Chevy bolt, and found that it’s battery cost about $145 per kWh in 2015. All the batteries I can find for sale for offgrid small systems ( 10-100 kWh) are in the $700-1000 per kWh Does anyone have insight into this. Or maybe better put, ways to buy at closer to the $145 kWh? Thanks Jay Peltz power. From Tom at solar-biz.com Mon Dec 24 13:02:24 2018 From: Tom at solar-biz.com (Tom Duffy) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 18:02:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you’re showing a lower voltage tray in the stack… You can’t overcharge the whole set to get the 6 volt tray to come up but you can separate (electrically) not physically (leave the center bolt alone) and charge the single tray with a 6 volt charger. We’ve done this with success several times. Make sure the MC4 connector is clean as they seem to get funky with low voltage. Kind regards Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [TSBLOGODPIx500x200] tom at solar-biz.com MAIN TOLL FREE: 888-826-0939 DIRECT: 888-503-6772 International: 001-575-539-2111 PANAMA: 507-836-5588 X 122 FAX: 520-844-8442 www.thesolarbiz.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of John Blittersdorf Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2018 6:48 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Testing Lou, I recently discovered that each layer can be checked for voltage. I had one battery test lower than the rest. Looking at the battery closer, I found that my meter probe could get the voltage of each layer indivually. Through an opening in the case. The top layer had the reduced voltage output and it was one cell of the 4 cells in each layer. I have 4 customers with Aquions and we are seeing lower storage because the days are Shorter now and fewer sunny days here in the Northeast. These batteries really like long slow charges. I have one customer with 8000 watts of Pv and a 12kw generator and he can’t figure out why his generator has to run so long. It is the nature of the batteries and our darkest month. His system is undersized with 12 battery stacks and he is driving to Maine tomorrow to buy 20 more from another unhappy Aquion user who is going back to lead acid. I am hoping doubling his storage will solve another problem of voltage dropping to 36 volts when his 1.75hp well pump runs when no sun or generator. Over sizing the battery bank is ok with Aquions as they don’t need to be fully charged.on a regular basis. John Blittersdorf . On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 5:33 PM Lou Russo > wrote: Aloha Wrenches, I have a orphaned system with 6 - Aquion Aspen 48Ss that is running out of energy nightly. This is a off-grid system with a Outback FP1. The logs from the Mate 3 do not show excess usage. Beyond testing the voltages of the individual stacks is there any way to check if a battery is good, bad, or failing? I don't have much experience with Aquions and have yet to have any of the 40 or so stacks I have installed fail. Thanks for your insight. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6229 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 19:12:15 2018 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 16:12:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Better yet, use Amphenol connectors. Brad On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 1:43 PM Tom Duffy wrote: > If you’re showing a lower voltage tray in the stack… You can’t overcharge > the whole set to get the 6 volt tray to come up but you can separate > (electrically) not physically (leave the center bolt alone) and charge the > single tray with a 6 volt charger. > > > > We’ve done this with success several times. Make sure the MC4 connector is > clean as they seem to get funky with low voltage. > > > > Kind regards > > > > *Tom Duffy* > > *Senior Solar Design Engineer* > > [image: TSBLOGODPIx500x200] > > *tom at solar-biz.com * > > *MAIN TOLL FREE:** 888-826-0939* > > *DIRECT:** 888-503-6772* > > *International:* *001-575-539-2111* > > *PANAMA:* *507-836-5588 X 122* > > *FAX: 520-844-8442* > > *www.thesolarbiz.com * > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *John Blittersdorf > *Sent:* Saturday, November 10, 2018 6:48 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Testing > > > > Lou, I recently discovered that each layer can be checked for voltage. I > had one battery test lower than the rest. Looking at the battery closer, I > found that my meter probe could get the voltage of each layer indivually. > Through an opening in the case. The top layer had the reduced voltage > output and it was one cell of the 4 cells in each layer. I have 4 > customers with Aquions and we are seeing lower storage because the days are > > Shorter now and fewer sunny days here in the Northeast. These batteries > really like long slow charges. I have one customer with 8000 watts of Pv > and a 12kw generator and he can’t figure out why his generator has to run > so long. It is the nature of the batteries and our darkest month. His > system is undersized with 12 battery stacks and he is driving to Maine > tomorrow to buy 20 more from another unhappy Aquion user who is going back > to lead acid. I am hoping doubling his storage will solve another problem > of voltage dropping to 36 volts when his 1.75hp well pump runs when no sun > or generator. Over sizing the battery bank is ok with Aquions as they > don’t need to be fully charged.on a regular basis. > > > > John Blittersdorf > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 5:33 PM Lou Russo > wrote: > > Aloha Wrenches, > > > > I have a orphaned system with 6 - Aquion Aspen 48Ss that is running out of > energy nightly. This is a off-grid system with a Outback FP1. The logs from > the Mate 3 do not show excess usage. Beyond testing the voltages of the > individual stacks is there any way to check if a battery is good, bad, or > failing? I don't have much experience with Aquions and have yet to have > any of the 40 or so stacks I have installed fail. > > > > Thanks for your insight. > > > > Aloha, > > > > Lou Russo > > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > > 808 345 6762 > > Spree Solar Systems LLC > > CT-34322 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6229 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Fri Dec 28 12:30:00 2018 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 17:30:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling with Dual Radians Message-ID: I have been reading Outbacks AC coupling note. It refers to using only a single Radian Inverter. Is it possible to duplicate the equipment if more PV is installed, and use two Radians, with their outputs paralleled to the critical loads panel? I see it recommends 6Kw of PV with an 8048 Radian Jeremy All Solar CO USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Pgiroux at mindspring.com Fri Dec 28 15:46:22 2018 From: Pgiroux at mindspring.com (Peter Giroux) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2018 15:46:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling with Dual Radians References: Message-ID: Jeremy With a mate 3 and a hub. Wire the out- puts into their own breaker in a service panel then out to the critical loads panel ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeremy Rodriguez To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, December 28, 2018 12:30 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling with Dual Radians I have been reading Outbacks AC coupling note. It refers to using only a single Radian Inverter. Is it possible to duplicate the equipment if more PV is installed, and use two Radians, with their outputs paralleled to the critical loads panel? I see it recommends 6Kw of PV with an 8048 Radian Jeremy All Solar CO USA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: